Nuremberg trials and denazification in Germany - myths and reality

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Nuremberg trials and denazification in Germany - myths and reality

The defeat of the Third Reich in World War II meant the collapse of the idea of ​​a German empire in Europe and had a strong impact on the entire German society. As historian Oleg Plenkov notes, story Germany in the recent history of modernity occupies an exceptional place for the reason that it is the only country in the history of modernity that has experienced a total defeat in the war, that is, such a defeat, behind which the possibility of the revival of the national state was not even initially visible. As many Germans thought then,

“zero hour has come” [1].

The terms of surrender were harsh and meant not only territorial losses, the occupation and division of Germany, but also a revision of its political culture. The process of formation of the modern historical memory of German society about the Second World War, expressed in a sense of repentance, has been developing continuously throughout the history of the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany [2]. Regarding the reasons for German repentance, the historian Viktor Kondrashin expressed the following opinion:



“In recent history, only one country has repented for the actions of the previous authorities. This is Germany. But the repentance of the Germans was not voluntary, but forced. It was imposed on them by the victors [3].”

The first stage in the formation of historical memory should include the denazification processes, first in the occupation zones, and then in the FRG and the GDR. The denazification of Germany, like the Nuremberg Trials that initiated it, are widely publicized components of post-war reconstruction.

However, it can be stated that these processes have become mythologized. In this material, we will try to answer the questions - how did the Germans feel about the Nuremberg trials, how did they feel about the Third Reich in the 1950s and 1960s, and how Germany eventually came to condemnation of Nazism and national repentance.

The Nuremberg trials through the eyes of the Germans



As Oleg Plenkov notes, the Nuremberg Tribunal in the eyes of the Germans was not a court that was perceived as fair and legal. He is perceived as such today, and immediately after the war there were quite controversial issues related to his work. The Germans were inclined to perceive the Nuremberg trials as the revenge of the victors.

The German historian S. Haffner noted that the major mistake of the Allies during the Nuremberg Tribunal was that they did not separate from each other, firstly, military aggression, secondly, war crimes, and thirdly, genocide. The first was committed by all powers without exception at all times, the second was done during the war not only by the Germans, but mass murder in a factory way - this is what really separated Nazism from the civilized world. Simply put, the prosecutors at Nuremberg blurred the difference between the crimes of the Nazis and ordinary imperial politics [5].

The trial of another state, in principle, had no precedents and was a legal nonsense. Moreover, during the war, all participants committed crimes, but only the defeated were judged. French historian Marc Ferro rightly notes:

“At the same time, other regimes – singers of democracy and champions of freedom – have also resorted to war of annihilation without hesitation. Even if such a war was not justified theoretically and was not programmed, it, nevertheless, provided, following the example of the enemy, erasing cities to the ground - up to the use of the atomic bomb [6]."

The chief American prosecutor at Nuremberg, Robert Jackson, said that

"War is a crime"

must be understood that any war. The most piquant thing was that Enola Gay with an atomic bomb on board was already on its way to Hiroshima, when in London the thesis of the main US prosecutor Jackson that “war is a crime [5]” was lively discussed.

It must also be remembered that the Nuremberg Trials were a typically American undertaking, since Americans have always been inclined to transfer the principles of their domestic policy to foreign policy throughout the world. President Woodrow Wilson tried to do the same after the end of the First World War, trying to replace the former principle of the balance of power in international politics [5].

In 1918, a situation similar to 1945 already took place: at the end of the war, an attempt was made to compile a list of 4 war criminals, including the Kaiser (the Dutch, however, refused to extradite him), Hindenburg, Ludendorff, Bethmann Gollweg, but in the end, the Entente countries abandoned all of this. In Nuremberg, on the other hand, the emotional component was very strong: the scale of the murders was terrible, it was especially difficult to comprehend what was happening in the concentration camps [900].

The status of the international tribunal, which was agreed and signed on August 8, 1945, included three points:

1. Planning and conducting an aggressive war.

2. Violation of the laws of war and the customs of war - that is, war crimes.

3. Crimes against humanity, to the extent that these violations are related to war crimes.


However, an important remark should be made never after Nuremberg was the crime of waging a war of aggression recognized in international law.

With regard to war crimes, the question related to the "execution of criminal orders" was of particular interest. Wehrmacht General Alfred Jodl at the Nuremberg trials said that decisions to start a war are made by politicians, not soldiers,

"soldiers do not wage aggressive wars, this is a political concept" [7].

Jodl's words about a soldier's duty to obey an order were later repeated many times in different versions. In fact, if you choose orders that you need to obey, and which you don’t, such a path will lead to a dead end, since the army is built on the relationship of order-subordination. Refusal to obey has always resulted in punishment.

For example, English officer William Douglas Home landed in prison for a year for refusing to obey the order of his command to continue the bombardment of French Le Havre in September 1944, when the head of the German garrison, Colonel Eberhard Wildermuth, after the first bombing war, asked for permission to evacuate the civilian population. Home command forbade Home to accept the offer of a German officer, but Home did not obey the order, for which he was suspended and arrested. The new commander continued the shelling, as a result, more than three thousand Frenchmen died in the besieged city [5].

In this regard, Home expressed surprise at the court-martial's finding of von Manstein "guilty of allowing the execution of the orders of the highest leadership." Home advised two amendments to the British army regulations: first, to specify which orders were to be carried out and which were not; secondly, to determine what entails a greater criminal punishment - obedience or disobedience to orders [5].

In 1954, in Germany, it was legally established that all decisions of the Nuremberg Tribunal are binding and do not require any additional evidence. This decision opened windows and doors for the subjectivism of the winners. History textbooks, not to mention scientific research, had to follow this court order dictated by politicians [5].

As a result, it should be stated that the Nuremberg Tribunal was, of course, necessary, but it did not become a prologue to the establishment of a real legal order in the assessment of war crimes as such and did not create any corresponding precedent.

The real realization by the Germans of what had happened happened much later, according to the German historian Edgar Wolfram:

“in Germany, the understanding that defeat in the war and liberation from Nazism are interconnected came much later than 1945”

and by no means due to the decisions of the Nuremberg Tribunal [8].

Denazification - myths and reality


Aerial view of the Justice Buildings on Fürterstraße in Nuremberg in November 1945
Aerial view of the Justice Buildings on Fürterstraße in Nuremberg in November 1945

The basic principles of denazification were considered at the Yalta and Potsdam conferences.

Denazification meant the destruction of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP) and all structures controlled by it, the cleansing of all spheres of society from Nazi leaders and National Socialist ideas. The main goal of denazification can be considered the desire to convince the German people that

"that he had suffered a total military defeat, and that he could not escape the responsibility for what he had brought upon himself, since his own ruthless warfare and fanatical resistance had destroyed the German economy and made chaos and suffering inevitable" [9].

It should be noted that the denazification carried out by the occupation authorities was aimed at forming a new historical memory of the German people about the Second World War. Recall that the NSDAP in Germany had a high popularity rating. In July 1932, the NSDAP received 37,36% in the elections to the Reichstag, and in November - 33,09%, which demonstrated its popularity. This success was one of the reasons why Adolf Hitler came to power in January 1933 as Chancellor of the Reich.

Denazification was based on the legal norms of the Nuremberg trials. It was initiated by the military administrations of the occupation zones, but after the emergence of two states, the FRG and the GDR, it was assigned to their competence. In the 1950s, a shortage of personnel and the Cold War led to a partial "renazification" of the FRG, as a result of which some former Nazis ended up in government bodies. In 1951, amendments were made to the fundamental law of the Federal Republic of Germany, which allowed former members of the NSDAP to return to service in a number of government agencies [10]. In fact, the new system has successfully integrated many people with a brown background.

The myths that in 1945, after the total defeat, the Germans suddenly became democratic and unequivocally condemned their past, are quite common, but have very little relation to reality. As historian Nikolai Vlasov notes, in the 1950s and 1960s there were many people in Germany who still sympathized with the Third Reich.

“There was no “zero hour” in 1945 for German society. Hitler continued to enjoy posthumous popularity, a significant part of society, and a few years after the defeat, considered the pre-war Third Reich the best time in German history.
In the 1950s and 1960s, there were quite a lot of people in Germany who did not want to know anything about any guilt, responsibility, and the list goes on. These people sincerely believed that the Wehrmacht was carrying out a noble mission to protect Germany from Bolshevism, and the death camps were a fake invented by the winners.
The West Germans began to really deal with their past towards the end of the 1960s, when a new generation matured, many tarnished figures left the stage, and the FRG was already a fairly successful and stable system that was not threatened by the fate of Weimar [12]”,

the historian notes.

In his opinion, the main factor in the stability of the early FRG was the "German economic miracle."

“The main factor in the stability of the early FRG was the famous “German economic miracle”.
Citizens began to wholeheartedly support the new system when they felt real improvements in their own lives. It is often said that the victors acted very wisely, not by punishing the West Germans financially, but by helping them recover as soon as possible. In fact, this strategy was dictated primarily not by historical wisdom, but by the development of the Cold War in Europe.
In a situation of acute confrontation with the social bloc, the Western powers needed a strong and successful Germany as the eastern bastion of the Western world, they needed a West German army and industrial potential.
The issue of punishing the Germans for the same reason quickly became irrelevant [12].”

It is difficult to disagree with this opinion. However, it is difficult to agree with another thesis of the historian.

In the same text, Nikolai Vlasov emphasizes that the occupation administrations first took part in the formation of the new German elite, and then delegated powers to it, while he also notes that

"if a significant number of West Germans rejected the new regime, the victors could do little about it",

thus giving two mutually exclusive theses.

German society was clearly not ready for new upheavals and resistance to the new German political elites formed by the victorious countries (primarily the United States), so the thesis that they could be rejected seems to the author unreasonable.

The Holocaust and the Politics of "National Repentance"


As Oleg Plenkov notes, the German historiography of the social history of Nazi Germany is concerned with only one thing - the process of national re-education, repentance, overcoming the temptation of the German people by Nazism. In Germany, political correctness and the tasks of political education are still at the center of attention during the debate about collective guilt and involvement in Nazism.

The turning point in the history of Germany was the student uprisings of 1968, when a new generation, in an inquisitorial manner, demanded from the previous generation an account of what happened to their fathers and mothers. Despite the fact that the students protested against the "American imperialists", they adopted the "sit-in" and "go-in" forms of protest from the Americans, thus Americanizing their own country [1].

The Holocaust was dealt with especially radically in 1968 - it was made the main crime of the Germans. It was in connection with the Holocaust that Nazism in the minds of the Germans became the personification of absolute evil, and the usual need for a critical rethinking of the past gradually turned into repentance on an unprecedented scale, accompanied by the absolutization of evil. In this regard, Erich Nolte wittily noted that if we are talking about "absolute evil", then this implies that there is an "absolute good" and that in some historical interpretations that Jewish researchers offer,

“The Holocaust is perceived as an attack on a God-fearing people and thus on God himself” [11].

The Nazi past seems to have left a perpetual wound on Germany. Germany lives with this wound, and so that it does not fester, the wound is opened from time to time. The magic number - six million victims of the Holocaust - is not negotiable, it is expressly prohibited by law [1]. The Holocaust has become a creed and a criterion for the moral, political and even aesthetic evaluation of discourses of any kind in Germany.

In the 1960s, the Germans gradually turned from victims of Nazism into villains and criminals for their own compatriots. In left-wing circles, the ethnic cleansing of the Germans, their brutal eviction after the victory in 1945, began to be seen as just retribution for the genocide of the Jews. The one who recalled the suffering of the Germans fell under suspicion that he sought to cast doubt on the suffering of the victims of Nazi aggression [1].

In 1993, Steven Spielberg's "Schindler's List" once again addressed the topic of the extermination of the Jews. The scale of evil was shown in this film especially clearly, thanks to the skill of the Hollywood director.

Three years after Schindler's List, the American historian Daniel Goldhagen published Hitler's Willing Executioners. The author sought to show that the murder of Jews in the Third Reich is a national political goal of the Germans during the war. In Germany, the book was received with great attention, and there was even a broad public discussion on this subject, despite the absurdity of the question. The issue of erecting a monument to the victims of the Holocaust in the center of Berlin was also widely discussed; as a result, it was built, despite its obvious architectural absurdity [1].

In shaping this approach to the issue of the Holocaust, the state of Israel played an important role, whose politicians sought to “instrumentalize” this tragedy and adapt it to their own political needs. It is clear to historians that Israel is greatly affected by the concept of the Holocaust, yet the Nuremberg trials did not mention the Holocaust at all. It is very important that influential American Jews also constantly exploit the theme of the Holocaust, using it for their own political purposes.

Foreigners look with mixed feelings of disbelief and surprise at this German secular self-flagellation, which other Western countries have increasingly come to perceive as exemplary and worthy of emulation [1].

Conclusion


Thus, it should be stated that the key role in the process of denazification of Germany was played not so much by denazification itself (which did not come down to punishing criminals, but included a revision of educational programs, limiting the influence of National Socialist ideas on culture, literature, art, the abolition of Nazi laws etc.), how much democratization and the "German economic miracle". And, of course, all this was supported by anti-Nazi propaganda.

The sharp rise in the German economy was due to large financial support from the United States, which established control over the industrialized regions of West Germany and de facto made the FRG its protectorate. After the Second World War, Germany found itself in a fundamentally different situation than after the First World War, the Germans were not severely punished economically (this became possible due to the Cold War), but on the contrary, they gave their economy an incentive.

True, you have to pay for everything, and the Germans paid for this with their political independence.

German political scientist Philip Manow in his book In the Shadow of Kings. The Political Anatomy of Democratic Representation" wrote:

“Modern democracy is not post-metaphysical, but, so to speak, neo-metaphysical. Every political power, including democracy, needs political mythology and produces it:
"A completely disenchanted world is a completely depoliticized world."
Any form of political government operates in the context of a symbolic series that legitimizes it [4].”

German repentance for Nazism and a conscious rejection of claims to a leading political role in Europe and in the process of its integration (and in everything else), as well as a politically correct interpretation of the Holocaust, which, as Oleg Plenkov notes, is the initial myth of the formation of national identity in Germany, have become conditions for Germany's integration into the Western world.

Paradoxically, the negative myth has become the cornerstone of the historical identity of the whole nation.

Использованная литература:
[1]. Plenkov O. Yu. National repentance for Nazism in Germany in the context of today's European integration / O. Yu. Plenkov // Vestn. St. Petersburg. un-ta - 2014. - No. 4. - P. 91-100.
[2]. Historical memory of the Second World War in Germany: stages of formation / D. I. Kolesov [et al.] // Izv. higher textbook head Povolzhsk. region. Humanite. Sciences. - 2018. - No. 1 (45). – P. 89–104; The same [Electronic resource]. – URL: https://cyberleninka.ru/article/v/istoricheskaya-pamyat-o-vtoroy-mirovoy-voyne-v-germanii-etapy-formirovaniya.
[3]. Kondrashin V. V. On the state policy of formation and preservation of historical memory / V. V. Kondrashin // News of higher educational institutions. Volga region. Humanitarian sciences. - 2016. - No. 2 (38). – S. 236–240.
[four]. Manov F. In the shadow of kings. Political Anatomy of Democratic Representation / transl. from English. A. Yakovleva - M: Publishing House of the Gaidar Institute, 4.
[five]. Plenkov O. Yu. International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg 5–1945. and the first direct reaction of the Germans to him // Society. Wednesday. Development. - 1946, No. 2020. - P. 1–17.
[6]. Ferro, Mark. Seven main faces of the war, 1918-1945 [Text]: parallel history / Mark Ferro; [per. from fr. S. I. Shemet]. - Moscow: ROSSPEN, 2014.
[7]. Darnstadt T. Das Weltgericht. // Der Spiegel. - 2006, No. 42.
[8]. Wolfram E. Geschichte als Waffe. Vom Kaiserreich bis zur Widervereinigung. - Göttingen: Vandenhoek und Ruprecht, 2001. - 348 s.
[nine]. Berlin conference. July 9 - August 17, 2 Protocol of the Berlin Conference of the Three Great Powers August 1945, 1 - URL: http://www.hist.msu.ru/ER/Etext/War_Conf/berlin_main.htm.
[10]. Kolesov, Denis. Holocaust memory culture in Germany's denazification policy [Text] / D. Kolesov, O. Shimanskaya // Modern Europe. - Moscow, 2019. - No. 4. - P. 164–173.
[eleven]. Winkler HA Der lange Weg nach Westen. Zweiter Band. Deutsche Geschichte vom "Dritten Reich" bis zur Wiedervereinigung. Munich: Beck, 11. 2002 s.
[12]. Six theses about the early Germany (published on the blog of the historian Nikolai Vlasov) URL: https://navlasov.livejournal.com/237726.html.
87 comments
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  1. +4
    20 January 2023 05: 41
    The conclusion from this article, in the light of recent events, are the goals of the NWO completely different? Denazification, demilitarization, just slogans?
    1. -1
      20 January 2023 22: 50
      Of course yes.
      our only goal is peace.
      Reconciliation is the goal of the NWO.
  2. +15
    20 January 2023 05: 56
    I recently watched Schindler's List again... a powerful film.
    I'm afraid that the Holocaust may again occur against the Russian population in Ukraine.
    It would be nice for our filmmakers to make a film about the Holocaust of Belarusian and Russian villages during the Second World War.
    The only movie about it so far. Go and see.
    1. +16
      20 January 2023 08: 31
      "Come and see" yes .. It's strong .. It evokes such emotions - a masterpiece ...
      1. +13
        20 January 2023 14: 27
        Yes, the film is very heavy and left a lasting impression.
        So after all, Ales Adamovich wrote the script together with Elem Klimov, I read his book "The Punishers" - my hair stood on end.
    2. +16
      20 January 2023 11: 58
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      It would be nice for our filmmakers to make a film about the Holocaust of Belarusian and Russian villages during the Second World War.
      The only movie about it so far. Go and see.

      And now there are no Masters in Russia capable of making such a film. The current "masters" have more and more "Bastards" and "Penal Battalions" are "good".
  3. +7
    20 January 2023 06: 00
    It was the judgment of the victors over the vanquished. In other words, judgment. Those who were actually to be tried and then hanged were absent from this trial. They tried every little thing that simply carried out criminal orders. The exception is Goering...
    1. +12
      20 January 2023 08: 26
      The exception is Goering...
      Here with Goering there is another opinion, different from the official one. Official - he was very afraid of the court, so he ate potassium cyanide. And another opinion is that he was going to talk about the cooperation of US firms with the Nazis. Therefore, during the treatment of a tooth, poison appeared in his oral cavity for some reason.
      1. +4
        20 January 2023 08: 42
        Quote: Aviator_
        he was very afraid of the court, so he ate potassium cyanide

        It's just that he, as a soldier, did not want to be hanged and asked to be shot.

        Quote: Aviator_
        And another opinion is that he was going to talk about the cooperation of US firms with the Nazis

        Schacht, Krupp or Thyssen could tell a lot about pre-war cooperation. But they either repented, or they were not allowed to say a word...

        Quote: Aviator_
        Therefore, during the treatment of a tooth, for some reason, poison turned out to be in his mouth.

        It seems like according to the generally accepted version, the poison was brought to him by his wife and passed it on during the kiss ...
        1. +2
          20 January 2023 14: 18
          It seems like according to the generally accepted version, the poison was brought to him by his wife and passed it on during the kiss ...

          Of course not. Obviously, this was invented by one of the idle clickers to give some kind of "romanticization" of this story. And in fact:
          It is not known for certain who gave Goering the poison in prison, the facts are as follows: the execution was scheduled for 2 am on October 16, the date was kept in the strictest confidence from both the condemned and the press. On October 15, at 21:30 p.m., Goering's attending physician, Dr. Pflucker, accompanied by Lieutenant McLinden, entered Goering's cell. Like most of the prison guards, McLinden did not speak German and could not understand what the doctor was saying to Göring. The lieutenant watched as the doctor handed Goering a pill (sleeping pill), which he took in their presence. Pflucker and McLinden were the last visitors to Cell 5 to see her prisoner alive.
          1. +3
            20 January 2023 17: 42
            Quote: Sea Cat
            It is not known for certain who gave Goering the poison in prison.

            This is as unproven as his kiss with his wife...
      2. +2
        20 January 2023 14: 01
        Official - he was very afraid of the court, so he ate potassium cyanide.

        He was not afraid of the court and was present at the whole process from beginning to end.
        In his last speech (August 31, 1946), he did not recognize the decision of the tribunal: “The winner is always the judge, and the loser is the condemned. I do not recognize the decision of this court ... I am glad that I was sentenced to death ... for those who are in prison are never made martyrs. The control commission of the tribunal rejected his request to replace the death penalty by hanging by firing squad. 2 hours before the execution of the sentence, he committed suicide in his cell.

        The poison was handed over to him by his attending physician in the presence of American guards. This is common knowledge.
    2. +2
      20 January 2023 08: 30
      Those who were actually to be tried and then hanged were absent from this trial.
      Those who were absent committed suicide ... The winners did not look after them .. smile
  4. +13
    20 January 2023 06: 13
    If the author's goal was to justify German fascism, then he did very well.
    The author humbly writes:
    Jodl's words about a soldier's duty to obey an order were later repeated many times in different versions. In fact, if you choose orders that you need to obey, and which you don’t, such a path will lead to a dead end, since the army is built on the relationship of order-subordination. Refusal to obey has always resulted in punishment.

    The author confuses sweets and diarrhea. Criminal orders are understood not as orders such as to storm or not to storm a city, but as an orderly violation of international conventions signed by Germany.
    From the first days of the war, the Soviet government began to receive information about the most brutal treatment of Soviet prisoners of war and civilians in the occupied territories. This, among others, was done by the Wehrmacht, which is reflected in the accusatory documents of the Nuremberg trials.
    July 17, 1941, i.e. less than a month after the start of the war, the NKID of the USSR sent a note to Sweden with a request to bring to the attention of Germany that the USSR recognizes the 1907 Hague Convention on the maintenance of prisoners of war and is ready to implement it on the basis of reciprocity. There was no answer. On August 8, 1941, the ambassadors and envoys of the countries with which the USSR had diplomatic relations received a circular note of the Soviet government with a similar content. Finally, on November 26, 1941, Pravda published a note from the People's Commissariat of Foreign Affairs, handed over to all diplomatic missions the day before. Here is an excerpt from that note:
    The camp regime established for Soviet prisoners of war is a gross and outrageous violation of the most elementary requirements for the maintenance of prisoners of war by international law and, in particular, the Hague Convention of 1907, recognized by both the Soviet Union and Germany. The German government grossly violates the requirement of the Hague Convention, which obliges the belligerent countries to provide prisoners of war with the same food as their own troops (Article 7 of the annex to the 4th Hague Convention of 1907)

    The Nazis wanted to spit on all the appeals of the USSR Government. They fought a war of destruction. From the testimony at the Nuremberg trials of a civilian adviser to the legal group "Abroad" OKW Wengler:
    I know that at the beginning of the campaign, the Soviet government turned to the German government with a proposal to mutually apply the Geneva and Hague, in particular the Geneva, conventions to prisoners of war. I know that the chief of the OKW, Keitel, refused to consider these proposals ...
    ... The content of this document boiled down to the fact that Germany cannot and does not want to agree to this proposal of the Soviet government ...

    I will not quote the documents of the Nuremberg Trials and the Soviet Extraordinary Commissions to investigate the crimes of the Nazis. I will only say what touched my family. During the war, my wife's family was under occupation. They are not Jews, they are not NKVD officers, they are not communists, they are simple collective farmers. In 1942 my wife's uncle Vanechka was two years old. His house was occupied by a German officer, and Vanechka and the others were driven out to a cattle shed.
    The barn, even if the cow and other animals were taken away by the Germans, is not the best place for the child, so they put him in the yard to get some fresh air. It was the summer of 1942, Vanechka was sitting and enjoying life, he did not interfere with anyone, he was not going to join the party, he did not help the partisans. The German officer wanted to stretch himself, and he went for a walk. This officer must have been a talented German football player, an ancestor of Beckenbauer or someone else from this gang. He was too lazy to go around the child, and he killed him with a kick. This is an example of the execution of a criminal order to wage a war of annihilation.
    What the author is right about is only that the Nuremberg trials were a half-measure. Thanks to the “allies”, Germany was never denazified, and now these fascist creatures are teaching us the observance of human rights.
    1. +6
      20 January 2023 08: 22
      Quote: Old electrician
      In what the author is right, it is only in the fact that The Nuremberg trials were a half-measure. Thanks to the “allies”, Germany was never denazified, and now these fascist creatures are teaching us the observance of human rights.
      Totally agree with you!
      At the same time, one should also remember the plan of the USA and Great Britain called "The Unthinkable". Namely.

      Operation Unthinkable developed by order of Churchill, provided for the application of the Soviet army on July 1, 1945. a surprise attack by Anglo-American troops, with the participation of surrendered on the Western Front, but not disarmed German divisions. The well-established perception of this operation is something exactly “UNTHINKABLE”. Something that could never happen in reality.
      At the same time, of those German prisoners of war who refused to continue the war between Germany and the USSR, the Americans alone simply physically destroyed up to 1 million people in the American camps for German prisoners of war. It was in this way that the United States and Great Britain, by artificial selection, kept the Germans alive as the inhabitants of German Nazism immediately after WWII. In fact, in 1945, there was no question of any denazification of Germany by the United States and Great Britain.

      American death camps from cold, hunger and disease in the open air for German prisoners of war in 1945-1946, who no longer wanted to participate in the war against the USSR.


      Operation Unthinkable. Why did the Anglo-American allies not attack the USSR on July 1, 1945. Published 8 months ago.
      1. +2
        20 January 2023 14: 32
        At the same time, of those German prisoners of war who refused to continue the war between Germany and the USSR, the Americans alone simply physically destroyed up to 1 million people in the American camps for German prisoners of war.

        Where does the information come from that it was those who refused to continue to fight against the USSR who were deliberately destroyed?
        Give me a link. And, preferably, from a serious source.
        1. +3
          20 January 2023 15: 37
          Give me a link. And, preferably, from a serious source.

          Konstantin, you are not new to the site, you should have gotten used to, to put it mildly, Tatyana's fantasies. Therefore, what serious sources and what links))))
          1. 0
            20 January 2023 16: 06
            Good afternoon, Timur. hi
            This is all understandable, but there was a simple interest - that the girl would answer this question for me. As we see -
            Silence was his answer when he came to Tatiana for advice
            request
            1. +5
              20 January 2023 16: 18
              Silence was his answer

              Good afternoon. Well, reply alerts don't work after a cyberattack, so it's no surprise that there are fewer replies.
              1. +1
                20 January 2023 18: 37
                after a cyber attack
                "I am tormented by vague doubts" (C) "Was there a boy?" (FROM)
            2. +1
              20 January 2023 16: 44
              Firstly. My "bell" after the attack on "VO" still does not work, so I accidentally saw your answer to my comment.

              And secondly.
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Give me a link. And, preferably, from a serious source.

              I believe that you have the same sources as I do, only you don’t know how to synthesize information from them and draw correct analytical conclusions and simply don’t even think about it.

              At the same time, does the figure of 1 million dead German prisoners of war, not loyal to London and Washington in the American "death camps" of 1945-1946, bother you?
              1. +1
                20 January 2023 17: 03
                Does the figure of 1 million dead German prisoners of war who are not loyal to London and Washington in the American "death camps" of 1945-1946 bother you?

                I am not even embarrassed that you did not specifically answer my question, because, in my opinion, colleague Timur is completely right about your fantasies.
                1. 0
                  20 January 2023 18: 43
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  You that the figure of 1 million dead German prisoners of war, not loyal to London and Washington in the American "Death camps" 1945-1946 embarrassing?

                  I am not even embarrassed that you did not specifically answer my question, because, in my opinion, colleague Timur is completely right about your fantasies.

                  The "vile skeptic" Timur, as always, trolls me in his vile repertoire! Listen to it more!
                  Well, here's a concrete answer from me to your question!
                  And remember: I am not at all obliged to spend my personal time on you and provide you with information that teaches you specifically according to your Wishlist.

                  See on "VO" the article "Eisenhower death camps" dated December 8, 2012 - https://topwar.ru/1452-lagerya-smerti-yejzenxauyera.html?ysclid=ld4of7067r71854797
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        2. +5
          20 January 2023 16: 04
          Kostya, I have repeatedly come across information about this camp. Some descriptions of the sufferings of captured Germans were such that the understanding of their guilt went aside, sympathy came - an open field, heavy rains, nowhere to hide, cold, inability to dry wet clothes, nothing to eat, exhaustion from hunger, illness, death, almost everyone died ! I read and shuddered. You can't do that, they're prisoners! Over a million people...
          But nowhere, you understand, nowhere was it said that these people refused to return to the eastern front.
          Simple logic!
          If such a proposal existed, the inhuman conditions of detention and the onset of mass deaths would simply force most of the prisoners to return to the army. Maybe everyone.
          1. +6
            20 January 2023 17: 16
            Good afternoon, Luda. smile

            But nowhere, you understand, nowhere was it said that these people refused to return to the eastern front.


            This is what we are talking about! And not about the camp itself and the conditions of detention of prisoners. In Crete, the captured Germans were in much better conditions, but nothing prevented them, at the first suggestion of the British, to act shoulder to shoulder with them against the Greek communists.
            And when the Greek partisans from ELAS krepeo pressed the British, then
            The 212th German tank battalion called “Crete” came to the rescue of the British and unblocked the “allies”. It got to the incredible - the personal car of the commander of the British troops, General Preston, was taken under guard by two German tanks ...

            Such were the "prisoners of war" request
            1. +5
              20 January 2023 17: 46
              Hi Uncle Kostya!
              Notice the German has a Steyr in the foreground. Rare volyn in the troops!
              1. +4
                20 January 2023 17: 53
                Notice the German has a Steyr in the foreground.

                I immediately blindly mistook for a British Lanchester recourse
                1. +4
                  20 January 2023 18: 03
                  Good evening, Timur! Yes, maybe a Lanchester, but I was embarrassed by the lack of a characteristic notch on the forearm and the barrel protruding beyond the casing.
                  1. +4
                    20 January 2023 18: 09
                    Good evening, Anton. No, not Lanchester, the memory only kept the general form, if you find photographs, then he has a different butt.
                    1. +3
                      20 January 2023 18: 30
                      if you find photographs, then he has a different butt.
                      For God's sake!
                    2. +4
                      20 January 2023 18: 48
                      Exactly, the neck of the butt is different, and the fasteners of the bayonet under the casing immediately rush into the eyes.



                      Lanchester Mk. I
              2. +5
                20 January 2023 18: 39
                You mean "Steyr-Solothurn" S1-100/MP \34 designed by Louis Stange, looks like it.



                It was indeed a rarity among the troops, for some reason they were mainly armed with the SS.
                1. +4
                  20 January 2023 18: 59
                  Not the SS, or rather not the WaffenSS, but the Einsatzkommandos, KriPo and the Feljandarmerie.
                  1. +4
                    20 January 2023 19: 22
                    and the Einsatzkommandos

                    Yes, mostly punishers.

                    Here is a selection of photos of the suppression of the Warsaw Uprising, soldiers from SD, but with MP28 / II
          2. 0
            20 January 2023 17: 31
            Quote: depressant
            If such a proposal existed, the inhuman conditions of detention and the onset of mass deaths would simply force most of the prisoners to return to the army. Maybe everyone.

            Do not forget that the Egg is expensive for Christ's day! Those. help is valuable when it comes on time (Russian proverb). Namely.

            When Churchill's plan was forced and not immediately eventually rejected by US President Harry Tumman due to the fact that the peoples of Europe simply would not understand this continuation of the war after they suffered the most difficult WWII, the further implementation of Churchill's plan was stopped.
            In connection with these extra mouths of German prisoners of war, the Anglo-Saxons did not need them. And those Germans who immediately agreed to cooperate with London and Washington on a new campaign to the East under the auspices of London against the USSR were evacuated overseas by the Anglo-Saxons for the future.

            Yes, there was a lot more.
            In particular, the The United States and Great Britain generally opposed the organization of a tribunal for German war criminals of the Third Reich during the Second World War / WWII - and only Stalin insisted on this!
            It was the USSR that organized the Nuremberg Tribunal! And the USA, Great Britain and France simply participated in it.
            1. +4
              20 January 2023 17: 51
              Quote: Tatiana
              The United States and Great Britain generally opposed the organization of a tribunal for German war criminals.

              Don't talk nonsense. The International Military Tribunal was created at the suggestion of the United States. And after the end of the main Nuremberg trials, the Americans held another twelve additional ones in their occupation zone.
              1. +2
                20 January 2023 18: 26
                In Soviet literature on the Nuremberg trials, I came across the fact that the USSR had to insist on including "crimes against peace" in the charge. The US was against it. From our side, this was served like a stone in the garden of the United States (the Cold War has long been in full swing). But if you take a balanced look, then the United States was right to legally substantiate certain actions, exactly how criminal preparations for war are extremely problematic, the solution will almost certainly look like just the arbitrariness of the winner over the vanquished.
              2. -2
                20 January 2023 19: 54
                [quote = Trilobite Master] [quote = Tatyana] The United States and Great Britain generally opposed the organization of a tribunal over German war criminals [/ quote]
                Do not talk nonsense. The International Military Tribunal was created at the suggestion of the United States. And after the end of the main Nuremberg trials, the Americans held another twelve additional ones in their occupation zone./ quote] It's not all right with your logic. Namely.

                First of all. If the USA, and not the USSR, were the INITIATOR of the tribunal over war criminals of the Third Reich, then the FIRST - MAIN - the tribunal would take place EXACTLY in the zone of AMERICAN occupation.
                However, Nuremberg was precisely in the zone of SOVIET occupation! and it was the USSR that carried out the work on organizing the FIRST tribunal. And the United States, Great Britain and France at the same time joined the Nuremberg Tribunal in the status of winners.

                Second. It was the US intelligence services - as early as 1923 (!) - that began to supervise Hitler himself and lead him to power in Germany - with the aim of Nazi Germany attacking the East - the USSR! For the West to solve those tasks against Russia that the Anglo-Saxons failed to solve for themselves: following the results of WWI, the pro-Western bourgeois coup d'etat in the Republic of Ingushetia and the socialist revolution in Russia.
                The United States itself during WWII / WWII also had everything in its snout! Nor did the United States seek self-disclosure at all.

                1. +8
                  20 January 2023 20: 15
                  I will only say one thing. Nuremberg was in the zone of American occupation.
                  1. +1
                    20 January 2023 20: 47
                    My respect, Michael!
                    Sometimes I really miss, in such cases, the "good doctor Sasha" ...
                    It's an obvious case!
                  2. -1
                    20 January 2023 22: 01
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    I will only say one thing. Nuremberg was in the zone of American occupation
                    Thanks for clarifying!

                    Yes, indeed, American troops occupied Nuremberg on 20.04.1945/XNUMX/XNUMX.
                    And on May 9, 1945, the Victory Day of the USSR over Nazi Germany has already come!

                    And all the same, the initiative and precisely the ORGANIZATION of the holding of the tribunal itself over the war criminals of the Third Reich, was made precisely by the SOVIET side.

                    I have remembered, why, then, Nuremberg was chosen by the Soviet side to conduct a tribunal on war criminals of the Third Reich. Namely.

                    Because for the proper level of conducting a tribunal over the war criminals of Nazi Germany in the SOVIET zone, the corresponding entire infrastructure (court buildings, hotel buildings for judicial personnel and for the maintenance of the accused themselves) simply was not found
                    Buildings in the Soviet zone due to the fiercest battles of the German troops and the sacred sacrificial resistance of the Germans themselves to the offensive of the Red Army were almost all destroyed
                    .
                    And on the American side, such buildings have been preserved.
                    1. +3
                      20 January 2023 22: 12
                      Yes, everything is simple, colleague Tatyana.
                      Nuremberg was chosen because it was the "tribune" of the Nazi congresses.
                      Before whistling something, read at least something that is less alternative-forming.
                      1. -1
                        20 January 2023 22: 34
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Nuremberg was chosen because it was the "tribune" of the Nazi congresses.
                        Before whistling something, read at least something that is less alternative-forming.

                        Here I will correct you. Namely.

                        At first, no one thought that the meeting place of the International Military Tribunal should be symbolic.
                        - The Soviet side insisted on holding a trial in Berlin,
                        - Americans called Munich.

                        The choice of Nuremberg was determined by the fact that the Palace of Justice located there was almost not damaged during the hostilities. Its great advantage was that there was a prison in one wing of the building, and there was no need to transport the accused.
                2. +3
                  20 January 2023 21: 59
                  It is the US special services - already since 1923 (!) -


                  Do me a favor, name at least one of these special services.
                  1. +3
                    20 January 2023 22: 16
                    Do me a favor, name at least one of these special services.
                    "Marvel"
                    1. +1
                      20 January 2023 23: 24
                      Is das you? This is a joke as far as I can tell. Something to do with Captain America?
                      Enlighten the dark uncle. wassat
                  2. -2
                    22 January 2023 14: 36
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    It is the US special services - already since 1923 (!) -

                    Do me a favor, name at least one of these special services.

                    I already wrote to you January 20, 2023 18:43
                    Quote: Tatiana
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    You that the figure of 1 million dead German prisoners of war, not loyal to London and Washington in the American "Death camps" 1945-1946 embarrassing?
                    I am not even embarrassed that you did not specifically answer my question, because, in my opinion, colleague Timur is completely right about your fantasies.
                    The "vile skeptic" Timur, as always, trolls me in his vile repertoire! Listen to it more!
                    Well, here's a concrete answer from me to your question!
                    And remember: I am not at all obliged to spend my personal time on you and provide you with information that teaches you specifically according to your Wishlist.

                    See on "VO" the article "Eisenhower death camps" dated December 8, 2012 - https://topwar.ru/1452-lagerya-smerti-yejzenxauyera.html?ysclid=ld4of7067r71854797

                    You answered me this January 20, 2023 19:38
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    And remember: I do not have to spend my personal time on you.
                    God save! No need to spend anything on me, especially something personal. hi

                    And after this OFFENSIVE FLOOD of yours against me on January 20, 2023 21:04 in support of your misogynistic trolls, like "The Vile Skeptic" and 3x3zsave, You have the audacity to contact me AGAIN!!!
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    "A little blue stocking..."



                    Yes, YOU GO away from me FOREST!
                    I do not want to talk to you!
        3. +3
          20 January 2023 17: 33
          Estimates of the Germans themselves about the mortality of prisoners of war.

          I think that a million Germans tortured by Americans are a fake of the same order as millions of German women raped by Russians.
          1. +2
            20 January 2023 17: 48
            Hi, hello!
            What does the rightmost column and the black rectangle to the left of it mean, there are three countries combined there?
            1. +4
              20 January 2023 17: 52
              Black - the loss of Anglo-American prisoners of war in Germany, red - Soviet.
              1. +4
                20 January 2023 18: 33
                OK, thanks. Yes, they are incomparable.
                1. +5
                  20 January 2023 18: 51
                  Everything is clear with the values. However, a million tortured Germans, in their own opinion, cannot be seen in the "American death camps". Statistics converge at 4,5 thousand.
  5. +5
    20 January 2023 08: 27
    In 1951, amendments were made to the fundamental law of the Federal Republic of Germany, allowing former members of the NSDAP to return to service in a number of government agencies.
    And already at the end of November 1951, the government of the Federal Republic of Germany filed a petition in the Federal Constitutional Court of the country to ban the Communist Party of Germany as "anti-constitutional." The CPSU, as well as for the policy of the Comintern, which was dissolved in 1936. As "judicial evidence," the government of the FRG cited a quotation from the communist press, which criticized the appointment of a high state pension to the widow of the head of the Imperial Main Security Directorate (RSHA) and the executioner of the Czech people, Reinhard Heydrich. That is, criticism of the pensions of former Nazis and their relatives was incompatible with the constitution of the FRG. The process against the KKE did not go as smoothly as planned. Nevertheless, the constitutional court of the FRG nevertheless banned the KKE. 1943 thousand criminal cases against party members and sympathizers. Yes, the ban against the KKE was actually lifted only in 125, however, even after that, belonging to the Communist Party in Germany was sufficient grounds for dismissal from public service. And another such moment, many judges adhered to Nazi views, and some were judges during the Nazi regime. Here is such a denazification ...
  6. +7
    20 January 2023 08: 34
    Thus, it should be stated that the key role in the process of denazification of Germany was played not so much by denazification itself (which did not come down to punishing criminals, but included a revision of educational programs, limiting the influence of National Socialist ideas on culture, literature, art, the abolition of Nazi laws etc.), how much democratization and the "German economic miracle".


    Was there a boy, that is, the denazification of Germany (FRG)?
    However, no.
    It's just that the model of German Nazism was replaced by another - the model of pro-American Nazism (the essence of liberal democracy). Practical results are evident, continuity is complete. They are preparing a new "Drang nach Osten" again.
    Everything that is called "democratic freedoms", "human rights" and so on is a product for internal use. And in relation to the outside world, the most "democratic" Western countries can pursue a policy that differs little from the "Plan Ost." Yankees in Indochina, France in Algeria, Belgium in the Congo.
    And Hitler in his opus "My Struggle" in German and white wrote that he considered the British colonialists his teachers and mentors.
  7. +7
    20 January 2023 08: 43
    Quote: Old electrician
    July 17, 1941, i.e. less than a month after the start of the war, the NKID of the USSR sent a note to Sweden with a request to bring to the attention of Germany that the USSR recognizes the 1907 Hague Convention on the maintenance of prisoners of war and is ready to implement it on the basis of reciprocity


    The USSR did not properly ratify the Hague and Geneva Conventions on the maintenance of prisoners of war and was not formally obliged to comply with their provisions. But de facto he complied with them.
    As for Germany, this country has signed and duly ratified these conventions. And therefore, according to their provisions, she was obliged to comply with the rules established in them for the treatment of prisoners of war, even from those countries that did not join the conventions. That is, to Soviet prisoners of war, regardless of the position of the USSR on this issue. But the Reich violated these rules in the most rude way, which led to the colossal death rate of Soviet prisoners of war in the camps. And yes, the Nuremberg Tribunal acquitted the Germans on this charge (which was presented by the Soviet side).
  8. +3
    20 January 2023 09: 47
    I read the article, read the comments, the conclusion is truly, "you look in the book - you see a fig."
    What is the article about?
    The fact that the Nuremberg trials were not the decisive factor in denazification, that for the most part the Germans did not understand its course and did not accept the results. An article about the fact that then, at the end of the forties, the Germans did not want and were not going to repent.
    Repentance came to them later, when the generation that was born immediately before the war grew up and stood on its feet, which remembered its horrors, but did not remember the national upsurge and patriotic frenzy that reigned in Germany in the late thirties. It was easier for them to plead guilty, because they, in fact, were not to blame for anything - they were the same victims of the war. The atrocities that Germany was accused of - terrible, unprecedented - were not committed by them.
    And Western propaganda helped them in every possible way in this, setting them up in this way - to repent and pay. And they repented. Some continue to do so to this day.
    The author says that the denazification of Germany did not take place in the forty-fifth, but already closer to the sixties, when historians, their own historians, who studied the legacy of the Third Reich with a cold head, thoughtfully and colorfully painted all the delights that were happening in it. And, of course, the fact that the generation, which is responsible for these charms, by that time had already almost completely left the historical arena, also affected - there was no one to let the foam go.
    And the author also writes that this very denazification was, by and large, the product of the activities of the Western powers - an "economic miracle", for which they paid with repentance, all-out inflating the Holocaust topic, etc. Then the US political agenda was somewhat different than it is now, and the German "repentance", as well as the "gratitude" of the allies, fit into it quite well, especially since both turned into quite tangible economic benefits.
    I had a chance to communicate with Germans - both Western and GDR, they were a little older than me, and I noticed that East Germans are noticeably less subject to this "repentance" than Western ones. Their attitude towards us quite fit into the scheme "fought - made up - we are friends",
    while the Westerners, at least for that period (beginning of the century), were still obviously tormented by guilt. However, this is just my personal experience.
    In short, conclusion.
    Germany was denazified and it was done by the hands of the West, I would even say, by the hands of the United States. But it was done in an American clumsy, grotesque way, as in their favorite comics, to the point of absurdity, and now it is quite possible to expect a sharp rollback in the style of "repent and that's enough", "as much as possible", "Hitler was right in some ways" and etc., and this may well be followed by "the Russians will still answer us for the 45th year."
    By the way, pay attention: even now Germany and Italy, as well as Spain, are the least radical in terms of nationalism. Where this infection is more developed in those countries where the Nazis have not yet been in power.
    1. +4
      20 January 2023 09: 58
      You are absolutely right, this is exactly what this article is about. I am glad that among my readers there are such erudite people like you who can explain in detail the meaning of this article instead of me :)
      1. +3
        20 January 2023 11: 41
        Quote: Viktor Biryukov
        explain the meaning of this article instead of me :)

        Hope this isn't sarcasm.
        Thanks for the article, it was interesting, especially since I was not interested in this topic before, it is completely new for me. But the main message of the article seems to me quite acceptable and logical.
        Erudition has nothing to do with it. I just read the comments and realized that some commentators saw in the article something completely different from what it says. This is where my comment started.
        Just the other day, I discussed this topic with my colleague Corsair - you draw a box with a lamb inside, and someone will find Hitler in it with Mein Kampf in his hands. This is exactly what is happening here, this is what I noted.
        1. +2
          20 January 2023 12: 31
          No sarcasm, you wrote everything correctly. For this reason (an abundance of "strange" comments), I rarely answer them, especially inadequate ones.
    2. +3
      20 January 2023 10: 00
      [B]
      you can expect a sharp rollback in the style of "repent and that's enough", "as much as possible", "Hitler was right in some ways"[
      / b] Such a rollback was in the late 70s, early mid-80s, when the Germans brought about 3 million Turks to work in Germany ..
    3. +7
      20 January 2023 10: 14
      The only clarification is that nationalism is still not = Nazism, although after the Second World War such an opinion is widespread. Nationalism in some countries of Europe, quite often, is now aimed at getting out of the "vicious circle" based on unconditional submission to the United States. And many "right" parties are quite pro-Russian. But this is a topic for a separate discussion. As for the meaning invested in this material, everything is indicated absolutely correctly. I decided to write it just when I read the comments under one of my articles in the spirit of “Nazism can only be fought by killing Nazis”, “Germans were denazified by hanging on trees and therefore they abandoned Nazism”, “you don’t need to fight for the minds of the Nazis” and that such nonsense.
      1. +2
        20 January 2023 10: 23
        nationalism is still not = Nazism
        Nazism, its extreme form, is just ..
      2. +4
        20 January 2023 11: 53
        I agree with my colleague kor1vet1974. Nazism, that is, National Socialism, is a radical form of nationalism. The upsurge of nationalist movements, noticeable in Europe, I am afraid, is due not only and not so much to attempts by some countries to regain their state sovereignty. I fully admit that this is a manifestation of the traditional "divide and rule" policy carried out by the same USA - in order to have influence on the elites controlled by them in these countries. But this is really a topic for a separate discussion.
        1. +3
          20 January 2023 12: 40
          national socialism is a radical form of nationalism.
          I would add, the right radical form. Left-wing forms of nationalism are also known, as national communism, its bright representative was the Ukrainian Communist Party, which successfully competed with the Communist Party (Bolsheviks) of Ukraine. In 1925 it was banned and dissolved itself, if I am not mistaken, many of its members joined the CP (b) U. Several times the UKP tried to join the ranks of the III International, but each time its applications were rejected, precisely because of its nationalist orientation.
          1. +3
            20 January 2023 14: 16
            Yes, nationalists are different.
            But it is completely incomprehensible to me how nationalist and communist ideas can coexist in one head. Class struggle among a single people? Nationalists of all countries, unite? So what?
            National Communism. To me, it's fried ice.
            1. +5
              20 January 2023 15: 22
              But nevertheless, this was it .. Communism, for a single nation. As far as I remember, the leaders of this movement were expelled from the party, already the CP (b) U, and later repressed ..
    4. +5
      20 January 2023 15: 03
      I noticed that East Germans are much less subject to this "repentance" than Western ones. Their attitude towards us quite fit into the scheme "fought - made up - we are friends",

      Right. In the early seventies, we somehow sat tightly with one guy from the GDR, just remembered everything we read about the war, and, in the end, came to the conclusion that only the USSR, together with the GDR, could bring order to this world. The guy's name was Helmut and he studied in Moscow, these were his last days with us, he graduated from the university and went home, taking away not only his diploma, but also his Russian wife. smile
  9. +11
    20 January 2023 12: 55
    Many thanks to the author for raising the topic!
    The Gypsy genocide in Germany was recognized only in the early 1980s. None of the gypsies, for the destroyed relatives, received and does not receive any monetary compensation from Germany, unlike the Jews. Why? Probably because in the USA the gypsies did not own banks and did not have a blocking stake in companies ... Or because in Nuremberg the question was not raised by judges from the victorious countries? ...
    Independent Croatia and Estonia about the destruction, almost completely, on the territory of their countries of the Roma during World War II, somehow do not remember, although their police forces actively destroyed the Roma.
  10. +3
    20 January 2023 13: 51
    That rare case when an article is more interesting than a discussion in the comments. I agree with Michael in his lengthy comment.
    1. +4
      20 January 2023 16: 09
      Contradict yourself, Michael. smile
      the article is more interesting than the discussion in the comments.

      And further
      I agree with Michael in his lengthy comment.
      1. +5
        20 January 2023 18: 45
        Kostya, here is from the last hour:

        The Krasnodar Regional Court recognized the atrocities of the Nazis in the Kuban during the Great Patriotic War as genocide. The Krasnodar Regional Court recognized the crimes of the Nazi invaders during the Great Patriotic War on the territory of the Kuban as genocide of the population of the Soviet Union.

        Strongly someone offended by Merkel!
        And the thoughts about why they do not raise the issue of the genocide of Nazi Germany in relation to the peoples of the USSR have been visiting me for a long time. There is the Holocaust, there is the Armenian genocide, but there is no Russian genocide.
      2. +4
        20 January 2023 20: 37
        According to ancient Greek traditions, I am against collective responsibility)) Therefore, a few very good comments cannot outweigh the conspiratorial nonsense about the evil Anglo-Saxons.
  11. +3
    20 January 2023 17: 56
    Quote: Tatiana
    My "bell" after the attack on "VO" still does not work

    What doesn't work for everyone?
    1. +6
      20 January 2023 18: 52
      And there is. All bells don't work. This makes communication very difficult. But perhaps there is some meaning to it. Something like user protection? However, hardly.
      1. +4
        20 January 2023 19: 13
        Something like user protection?
        I have a different version, but you will like it.
        1. +3
          20 January 2023 19: 43
          I have a different version, but you will like it.


          So share with the people, in this world it is so sad and there is little pleasant there. sad
          1. +3
            20 January 2023 19: 59
            I would share my version, but lately many comments regarding the "call" have been deleted, and for the version, I think, they will be banned completely.
            1. +5
              20 January 2023 21: 57
              generally tightly banned.


              Well, it’s better to go to your bathhouse, how Mikhail painted everything deliciously yesterday. wink

        2. +5
          20 January 2023 19: 50
          Anton, what are you implying, a joker! wassat )))
          By the way, how is the ice in St. Petersburg? Here, until you get somewhere, ten times you will give your soul to God. Tajiks stand in a group, lean on shovels and continuously talk on the phone about something important. Harvesting equipment has stopped working altogether. If it's the same for you, take care! Beglov will not support by the arm.
          1. +5
            20 January 2023 20: 57
            By the way, how is the ice in St. Petersburg?
            +2, there are no icings either in the center or on the outskirts.
            "If it fell to be born in the empire,
            It is better to live in a remote outskirts, by the sea "(C)
  12. +3
    20 January 2023 22: 28
    3x3zsave (anton), dear, "If it happened to be born in the empire,
    It is better to live in a remote outskirts, by the sea "(C) - this is definitely about me, and even considering that I was born in a museum ... In Severodvinsk on the night of January 19, freezing rain was at 0 -2, and on the night it was +20 by 2. Such are the epiphany frosts this year.
    1. +3
      21 January 2023 00: 32
      Near Ryazan, everything is the same, plus the wind is gusty and rabid. belay
  13. +1
    21 January 2023 08: 56
    What am I reading now? Denial of the fundamental officially recognized conclusions of the Nuremberg Tribunal?
    The author should have figured it out himself, and not pull the arguments of the deniers.
    they did not separate from each other, firstly, military aggression, secondly, war crimes, thirdly, genocide. The first was committed by all powers without exception at all times, the second was done during the war not only by the Germans, but mass murder in a factory way - this is what really separated Nazism from the civilized world.

    The author is not aware that in 1933 the London Convention on the Definition of Aggression was adopted?
    However, an important remark should be made - never after Nuremberg was the crime of waging a war of aggression recognized in international law.

    In the author fills.
    Definition of aggression
    Approved by General Assembly resolution 3314 (XXIX) of December 14, 1974...
    Article 5
    1. No considerations of any nature, whether political, economic, military or otherwise, can justify aggression.

    2. Aggressive war is a crime against international peace. Aggression entails international responsibility.

    3. No territorial acquisition or special advantage obtained as a result of aggression is and cannot be recognized as legal....

    https://www.un.org/ru/documents/decl_conv/conventions/aggression.shtml

    But in general, did the author look into the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation?
    Criminal Code of the Russian Federation Article 353. Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of an aggressive war...
    Criminal Code of the Russian Federation Article 354. Public calls for a war of aggression

    http://www.consultant.ru/document/cons_doc_LAW_10699/
    the second was done in the war not only by the Germans

    It is that the Germans used it as a system.
    For example, English officer William Douglas Home landed in prison for a year for refusing to obey the order of his command to continue the bombing of French Le Havre in September 1944.

    Before discussing what he does not understand, the author should get acquainted with the real regulatory framework on the issue. Regarding the bombing of cities, according to the Hague Convention on the Laws and Customs of War then in force, the bombing of cities was an acceptable and legal way of conducting hostilities. Their ban took place after the war, with the adoption of the Additional Agreements to the convention.
  14. 0
    21 January 2023 09: 22
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Germany was denazified and it was done by the hands of the West, I would even say, by the hands of the United States. But it was done in an American clumsy, grotesque way, as in their favorite comics, to the point of absurdity, and now it is quite possible to expect a sharp rollback in the style of "repent and that's enough", "as much as possible", "Hitler was right in some ways" and etc., and this may well be followed by "the Russians will still answer us for the 45th year."
    By the way, pay attention: even now Germany and Italy, as well as Spain, are the least radical in terms of nationalism. Where this infection is more developed in those countries where the Nazis have not yet been in power.


    What is the real denazification by the US? The fact that the German Nazis began to serve the new masters - the Yankees?
    Moreover, they did not even have to change the usual image of the enemy. The Russians were sworn enemies - the Russians remained enemies.

    About nationalism. Nationalism has simply changed its priority: now it is "globalism", that is, global American nationalism.

    "Globalization is Americanization!" (Bill Clinton, President of the United States).
    Germany and Italy are quite loyal to the globalist idea. Where to go if there are American military bases on your territory.

    The Nazis, strictly speaking, were in power in most European countries during the Second World War. From Spain to Romania. And in the "Eastern Campaign" volunteers from many countries were accepted ... definitely no less than in Napoleon's campaign.
  15. 0
    21 January 2023 11: 57
    Disappeared 3rd Reich appeared 4th. The Americans in these wars rebuilt huge metropolitan areas for themselves and raised the economy. Only the people who live there right now have degraded and nothing has changed in principle for all this time. Only viral zombies, cyborgs are already appearing, and there will be more of them. And underground there will be a supercomputer with mutant people. So to say the evolution of people has reached its climax.
  16. -1
    25 January 2023 02: 15
    Indeed, if you choose orders that you need to obey, and which you don’t, such a path will lead to a dead end, because. The army is built on a relationship of command and subordination. Refusal to obey has always resulted in punishment.

    No, not always. Read the Soviet pre-war charters, where it is unambiguously stated that both the person who issued it and the subordinate who carried it out bear responsibility for the execution of a criminal order.
  17. -1
    25 January 2023 02: 19
    In general, the author embarked on a very dangerous path of questioning the legitimacy and even the legality of the decisions of the Nuremberg trials.
    Be careful in your aspirations, Victor (alas, I don’t know my patronymic). The consequences can be very unexpected.