Where will Challenger and Leopard arrive in Ukraine?

173
Where will Challenger and Leopard arrive in Ukraine?

Today, many say that the Armed Forces of Ukraine will soon receive new gifts in the form of British tanks "Challenger-2" from the British and German "Leopard 2A4" from Polish bounties.

In general, our opinion is an openly political action. Western partners, who last year collected old Soviet-made equipment from the dumps of former socialist countries, without even a hint about giving the Armed Forces of Ukraine modern heavy weapons, frankly lost their fear after a series of deafening “successes” of the Russian army.



And weapons went to Ukraine, if not today, then at least yesterday. But no longer Soviet, originally from the 70s of the last century.


But everything has its own nuances.

The supply of modern artillery systems such as "Crab" and PzH 2000 should not be taken lightly. Even a small number of them can change the situation on a separate theater of operations, since these self-propelled guns easily shoot all Russian artillery systems, which, we admit, come from the USSR, in terms of range and accuracy.

With tanks, things are a little different. Tank - weapon battlefield, its use occurs precisely in contact with the enemy. And, if the self-propelled guns work from a safe distance, because of the wide back of the same tank, then the tank has a hard time in battle, because everything that the enemy has is flying at him. All calibers. Specific application...


Therefore, if you ask the question “how many”, say, the same German self-propelled guns PzH 2000 (the Armed Forces of Ukraine received 28 pieces), then the answer will be “decently”. Indeed, these mobile, accurate and long-range howitzers are capable of inflicting very tangible strikes from an absolutely safe distance for themselves.

Let's ask another question: "Is 25 Challenger 2 tanks a lot"? The answer will be negative. It's only two companies. Of course, 25 tanks at the forefront of a strike against a populated area is very sensitive and significant. But the very principle of using tanks implies that tanks will suffer losses upon contact with the enemy. This is not a self-propelled gun that can ride at a distance and send its shells to points, and even with adjustments using UAVs.


Quantitatively, 25 Challengers and 10 Leopards are not many. Actually, this is one of the arguments that the action is political. They just openly say to Russia: we are no longer afraid of you. Draw your "red lines" until you run out of paint, and we will do as we see fit. That is, to give Ukraine more and more modern models of weapons.

What to do, the weak are always despised, humiliated and beaten. In theory, practice sometimes differs from theoretical calculations.

Therefore, we will finish with the political part, and let's talk about the usefulness of these tanks for the Armed Forces of Ukraine. It is clear that any tank, serviceable and with ammunition, cannot be useless. This is a combat vehicle, the purpose of which in battle is to destroy everything that can be reached with a cannon or caterpillars.

But here such problems arise that I would like to talk about first of all, leaving all comparisons of performance characteristics for later, although for some this is the most interesting.

Let's start (as in the case of self-propelled guns) with logistics. Because if there is no timely delivery of ammunition and spare parts, the value of the tank begins to tend to zero.

In terms of logistics, the APU is a complete nightmare. No, they bring everything they need, they are quite good. Another question: how much and what do you need to bring? And here ... However, let's go through what the tank forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine consist of.

And they consist of "only" of:

1. T-90A and M.
2. T-80 of all modifications.
3. T-72 of all modifications.
4. RT-91 (Polish modification T-72M1).
5. T-64 of all modifications.
6. T-62M, MV.
7. M-55S.
8. "Leopard-2A4"
9. Challenger 2

Many will now notice that the T-84U "Oplot" and the so-called BM "Oplot" are not in the list of tanks in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the vehicles are different, but the same in that they are not. It's simple: 5 produced cars - no reason to be distracted. 12 captured Russian T-90s are much more valuable than a tank that did not go into mass production. Well, like the T-14 "Armata" approximately, so there is no point in considering it here at all.

For nine tank models we have:
- 7 basic engine models (T-72 and T-90 have almost the same engine, V-92);
- oils: a separate headache, because each engine requires its own oil;
- 5 calibers of guns (100 mm (T-55), 105 mm (M-55S), 115 mm (T-62), 120 mm (Leopard and Challenger), 125 mm (from T-64 to T-90);
- the Challenger, T-55 and M55 have rifled guns, the RT-91, T-62, T-64, T-72, T-80, T-90 and Leopard have smoothbore guns. Shells, of course, are also different;
- transmissions, ventilation equipment, sights, thermal imagers, rangefinders - the list can be continued for quite some time.

All this requires a huge range of products, which must be hauled to the points of supply and refueling of tanks and to maintenance points.



Maintenance


That, as everyone knows, is a thing without which it is impossible. For the tank can simply refuse, moreover, it will do it at the most inopportune moment. Therefore, it is necessary to serve, whether you like it or not.

And here the interesting things begin.

Okay, we will immediately put aside the Soviet tanks, because there are no problems with their maintenance. Everything is known and worked out since the 50s of the last century. But in our list there are machines that are somewhat different from those that are registered in the basic "bios" of Ukrainian technicians.

Let's take the M-55S, kindly donated to Ukraine by Slovenia. The Slovenes, of course, expect to receive the same Leopards or BMPs in exchange for their tanks, but everyone wants this today.


What is M-55S? This is the modernization of the Soviet T-55A for the Slovenian army, which was completed by ... the Israeli company Elbit Systems. The modernization was very impressive: Blazer dynamic protection, anti-cumulative screens, 105-mm L7 gun, a modular turret on the Rafael turret with a DShK machine gun, the new Fotona SGS-55 fire control system (with an integrated digital ballistic computer, laser range finder, gunner's sight SGS-55 with a two-plane stabilizer and an atmospheric parameter sensor), a surveillance system for the commander Fotona COMTOS-55, a driver's periscope Fotona CODRIS equipped with night vision devices, two six-barreled smoke grenade launchers with a LIRD-1A laser sensor system. Everything, of course, except for the gun, is made in Israel.

And the modernization of the M-55S1 is the M-55S, into which the MAN engine was inserted, with a capacity of 850 hp. With.

Attention, a question for connoisseurs: how many technical personnel are there in the Armed Forces of Ukraine who can take and carry out maintenance of such a tank? Yes, I think so, a little. The number is likely to go to zero, as mathematicians would say. And the tank is quite old, and there may not be technical documentation. And the fact that about fifty such tanks were made in total casts doubt on the possibility of any quick repair or maintenance.

The Challenger is even worse. This tank is generally unknown to the "general public" in oiled overalls.


Yes, there were more than four hundred British cars produced, but here's the problem - they served in the British army and the army of Oman. And that's all.

It is clear that in order for the Challengers to fight, either specialists from Britain or specialists trained in Britain are needed. The third, as they say, is not given. The problem is uniquely solvable, but it takes time and trained people.

By the way, the Leopard is even worse. There, the Germans and those who use German tanks should have a well-developed system of maintenance and repair. That is, in a tank battalion - a repair platoon, in a regiment - a remrota, and so on.

But the most important thing is not even the presence of specialists in these units, but the availability of a material base. That is, there is a certain set of equipment, and the larger it is, the wider the work schedule.


In the media, by the way, not a word about whether technical equipment for their maintenance and repair will be transferred along with the tanks. A company of Leopards, which is 10-14 units, is clearly not worth bringing expensive equipment to Ukraine. This means that we can conclude that the Polish Leopards will serve the Poles on Polish territory as well. Which already casts doubt on the feasibility of the undertaking.

Well, it's logical: there is a platoon set of repair equipment for work as part of a battalion. There, of course, there are not as many cars as in the divisional set of workshops (30-32), but there are. The key word here is "battalion kit". That is, three companies. It is very difficult to say how to tear it apart so that one company can be serviced, because if there is ONE workshop for repairing tracked vehicles in the battalion set, then you can hardly make it into two parts.

And the Leopard is not the kind of tank that will allow itself to be operated without proper maintenance. If there is no maintenance, it will need repair. There will be no repair - there will be no tank. This is the essential difference between German technology and Soviet technology.

And it turns out that if the Poles do not want to share the repair equipment (and there are special keys there, only designed for the Leopard), then what, the Germans will get up? It turns out that yes. Or on trawls and to Poland. Which is even more reasonable.


But what is this tank that looms back and forth? Instead of spending a day or two on maintenance, will he be driven to Poland and back for a week?

In general, the situation does not look very well thought out, which means it smells like politicians. Well, where there is politics, you yourself know, do not expect good.

And the supply of tanks for the Armed Forces of Ukraine, alas, is managed by politicians. Like Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister of Great Britain, and Andrzej Duda, the President of Poland, they are serious and powerful men, but first of all they are politicians.

Demonstration of support for Ukraine? Yes, that's understandable. Gain? There are more questions than answers.



Combat application


The Challenger 2 tank seems to be not bad, but apart from rare uses in Kosovo and Iraq, it did not show itself in any way. Yes, the losses were minimal, but the question is: what caused them, the good combat qualities of the vehicle or the excellent training of the crew?

And secondly, the British did not bother themselves with modernization very much. Indeed, why? They somehow did not plan to fight on the continent, with rare exceptions, and the use in Iraq and Kosovo, frankly, was episodic. So the main task of the Challenger is the hypothetical defense of the islands during a hypothetical military aggression.

Therefore, not aiming to make money on the sale of the tank, the British drilled the crews and did not bother with upgrades at all. Because "Challenger 2" came out so ... peculiar.

The 120mm rifled gun is just a great thing for high-precision shooting. No wonder the record of a confirmed defeat belongs to the Challenger - in March 2003, in a battle with an Iraqi T-55 unit, the Challenger crew hit an Iraqi tank from a distance of 5100 meters.

Yes, there are nuances, a smooth barrel was created to disperse feathered "crowbars", that is, BOPSs. The rifled one is not able to provide projectile speeds comparable to the speeds of projectiles of smooth barrels. But it provides accuracy at distances over 2 km, which smooth-bore guns never dreamed of.

That is, even the use of the Challenger is not an easy task. Although in general, despite the simply huge size (15 cm higher than the M1 Abrams) and weight (the latest versions of the Challenger overtook even the Abrams in weight by almost a ton and a half, the tank is decent and stubborn. Many cases have been recorded when a recognized the authority of close anti-tank combat RPG-7 did not penetrate the armor of a British tank.

It will not work to say something essentially new about the Leopard-2, the tank is well known, its strengths and weaknesses are known both in battle and after it.

And yet politics?


Yes. Policy. Military, but politics. Great Britain and Poland will not contribute anything significant to the Ukrainian theater of operations with their tank deliveries, except, perhaps, Germany.

Why is Germany here? Well, after all, it is Germany that is the largest European manufacturer of tanks, which Ukraine needs so much. And it depends on Germany whether the Ukrainians will receive tanks in an amount that can turn the tide of hostilities.

And this is unrealistic without technical assistance from Germany, which not only produces and modernizes tanks, but many years of experience is concentrated in the hands of German engineers. In other words, the German technical support for the Leopards provided to Ukraine is crucial. Germany has repeatedly opposed sending tanks, but many European (and non-European) military experts believe Germany could eventually reconsider its restrictions if another NATO country takes the lead.

Without the technical support of Germany, all other attempts to saturate the Armed Forces of Ukraine with any tanks, except for Soviet ones, which are pulled from all over the world.

Perhaps, British and Polish-German tanks in such quantities, if they can change something, then definitely not on the battlefield, but in the arena of political games. Therefore, in answer to the question posed in the title as to where European tanks might arrive in Ukraine, only one thing can be said: they will bring further political escalation, since on the battlefield their value in such quantities is more than doubtful.
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  1. +3
    15 January 2023 05: 02
    Judging by what the Americans say about the transfer of the Bradley BMP to them, not earlier than in a year, because it is difficult to train the calculations, the statement about the transfer of Challengers and Leopards is nothing more than an advertising campaign.
    1. +13
      15 January 2023 06: 24
      Quote: YOUR
      the statement about the transfer of Challengers and Leopards is nothing more than an advertising campaign.

      No, this is a test of military equipment in real combat conditions ... and they will appear on the front line in the spring. how the mess will come down. NATO now NEEDs a victorious operation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and as I understand it, most likely it will be the direction to Melitopol - Berdyansk, with access to the Sea of ​​Azov
      1. +21
        15 January 2023 07: 03
        Well, as for the repair of Western equipment, we can say that it is quite possible to teach it to repair at a quick course in about 2-3 weeks, since all this equipment was created taking into account the aggregate repair. During the Second World War, the Soviet army quite successfully repaired British and American tanks, armored vehicles and cars that were quite unfamiliar and difficult to repair. The main thing is that the spare parts are available and delivered on time. And with this, I think, the Western well-wishers of Ukraine will have no problems.
        1. Eug
          +3
          15 January 2023 07: 34
          "Technical cannibalism" has not been canceled either, during aggregate repairs it can be used quite successfully - however, I don’t know how they are with the forms, if, like in aircraft under the USSR, they will mix up everything that is possible and what is impossible.
        2. +13
          15 January 2023 07: 40
          We have all gone through the era of Western cars. People needed cars. And they imported everything at their own peril and risk. The servicemen did not have a certain shock and surprise for long. The apparent complexity turned out to be perfection. Often this complexity was visible. But in fact, everything was even simpler than that of the Zhiguli and so on. Some simply stopped communicating with domestic technology.
          I remember how people were shocked by Japanese carburetors. We didn't know which way to go. Automatic boxes .... But we figured it out, and it turned out that they are much simpler and better than Soviet ones.
          And there will be problems, but not for long. If the supply of these tanks is constant, the ry will quickly adapt. People did, people will be able to serve.
          1. 0
            16 January 2023 09: 29
            The war of economies began as the Soviet reserves of the parties were used up.
          2. +2
            16 January 2023 22: 43
            If the supply of these tanks will be constant
            And how can they be permanent then? They were physically made not so much. 3563 pieces in total. And how many of them are left? And combat-ready? What about repairable? Worldwide. I don’t think that more than 300 Khokhols will be shipped from the world one by one. A year or so for 2. They still need to be removed from storage, repaired, modernized.
          3. 0
            22 January 2023 10: 52
            Surely the deliveries will be inconsistent and irregular: most of all due to the fact that already at Ramstein all the allies quarreled over who and how many cars will be transferred to Ukraine - that is why there is already discord and re-grading. With repairs it will be much worse than with Soviet cars - the concept of uniformity of units will be absent for each type. What will most surprise and annoy suppliers is how many cars will be in the factory parking lot that do not have the necessary parts.
            And as for the replacement of trunks, then there is no need to talk about the accuracy of the work of worn-out pieces of iron.
          4. 0
            28 March 2023 22: 22
            Fix "Zhiguli" on your knee, which will not work with cleverly modern and simply modern cars. "Zhiguli" with a minimum of skills could be repaired even by a non-specialist, which cannot be said about modern cars, where often not repairs are used, in the literal sense of the word, but a banal replacement of a faulty part with a new one.
        3. +3
          15 January 2023 13: 02
          Quote: Monster_Fat
          The main thing is that the spare parts are available and delivered on time. And with this, I think, the Western well-wishers of Ukraine will have no problems.


          Controversial statement.
          In the same Germany, civilian firms are also involved in the production of parts in military equipment.
          And now a civil company receives an order for conditionally two hundred pieces of component parts instead of ten a year as usual. A civilian enterprise will politely refuse, say, seventy. Thirty somehow squeeze into the plan of its production.
          To produce the remaining, conditionally, seventy components, the subcontractor of the German military production will have to turn to other firms. As a result, the order will be scattered around the companies and they will make a conditional part (which is conditionally one of a hundred in the unit, which must be replaced by a faulty tank), but this is time spent, which is never enough at the front.
          1. +3
            15 January 2023 21: 14
            All parts have already been manufactured and are in stock.
            Repair, as already correctly said here - REPLACEMENT OF UNITS, and not repair of the box or engine.
            All this will be delivered along with the tanks.
            The training of the Wehrmacht's coming out in the use of German armored vehicles is already in full swing.
            But to train, to prepare, does not mean at all to decide on deliveries.
            1. 0
              15 January 2023 21: 29
              Quote: Red Biker
              All parts have already been manufactured and are in stock.

              The number of units and components for them, which "lie in warehouses and are waiting to be sent to the eastern front," is unknown to anyone, and during active hostilities they will most likely be lacking.
              1. +1
                16 January 2023 01: 04
                Germany produces only more than 3 mio cars a year. For high-tech metalworking and other enterprises, of which there are a huge number in Germany, it is not a problem to start producing anything in large quantities, just give them money. In addition, there are a lot of repair kits for Leopard 2 in Europe, since the Germans sold more than 3300 Leo2 or were allowed to do it under license, Spain, Sweden. European countries, not only those in NATO, chose Leo2 as a mobilization, mass MBT, and if it were not for the complexes of the French and Britons in front of the Germans, then they would not have invented any Challenger or Leclerc, but would have chosen Leo2.
                1. +1
                  17 January 2023 00: 37
                  Quote: karabas-barabas
                  Germany produces only cars more than 3 mio per year



                  laughing

                  With your comment, you reminded me of a joke about trousers for sale.
          2. Alf
            +3
            15 January 2023 22: 45
            Quote: Simple
            A civilian enterprise will politely refuse, say, seventy.

            Why refuse? The military will pay as much money as the firms say. What is the problem? Where 30, there are 200. They will stay to work overtime, especially since in Europe propaganda on the topic of poor Ukraine and the evil Putin is working perfectly now.
            1. 0
              17 January 2023 00: 27
              Quote: Alf
              Why refuse?


              You must have misread my comment.
              In Germany, there is no cluster that manufactures, in our case, everything for Leopard2. Everything is scattered among civilian firms.
              So it happened with WWII.
              And civilian firms have their own orders, which must be completed within the agreed time frame. In the worst case, the client will go to a competitor. And whether the state will restore the lost profit from the departed customer - I doubt it. And to force a civilian company to make this particular order (In principle, the company has no idea that the tank will not be repaired without its parts) - there is no legal basis.

              Yes, about propaganda - self-respecting firms have their own "code of laws" that prohibits the politicization of firms - because of the Nazi past of a state called Germany.

              On the topic of working overtime for political reasons - you are definitely in the wrong place if you mean Germany.
              That's when these unfortunate rulers introduce martial law, then everything can be restored in Germany - along with concentration camps to boot.
            2. 0
              22 January 2023 11: 03
              Would you look at TV more often and deeper
              ALL EU countries are now covered by a strike movement due to a shift in industry and the service sector, where in a recession, and where already in a crisis, and no one will pay a hundred for a detail of ten euros, especially if these are products manufactured in another country .
      2. -8
        15 January 2023 07: 50
        Quote: svp67
        No, this is a test of military equipment in real combat conditions ... and they will appear on the front line in the spring. how the mess will come down.

        The Armed Forces of Ukraine will be handed over cardboard and short-barreled Leopards-2A4, on which the Turks have already fought in Syria. So they will shoot OFSami from the forest belts in a mortar way. 5 countries Spain, Germany, Poland, Finland and Norway will collect about 100 dill. Leopardov-2A4. Also, Germany, apparently, will eventually give Ukraine about 100 old Leopard 1A5 tanks in storage with the Rheinmetall group, the question of which came up in the spring of 2022.

        Photos of Turkish Leopards-2A4.

        1. +7
          15 January 2023 12: 46
          Quote: Snowfall
          The Armed Forces of Ukraine will be handed over cardboard and short-barreled Leopards-2A4, on which the Turks have already fought in Syria. So they will shoot OFSs from the forest belts in a mortar way.

          Yes Yes.
          We are all aware that the cunning West gives Ukraine only "grenades of the wrong system." Articles about this are published weekly on the resource.
          But the voice of Skomorokhov in this general chorus is unexpected for me.
          I have a question for Roman: if everything is so bad at the Aerospace Forces (with logistics, weapons, maintenance and other factors), why does the configuration of the front line not change dramatically in our favor? Many months? What is the problem?
          1. Alf
            +3
            15 January 2023 22: 47
            Quote from: skeptick2
            if everything is so bad with the Aerospace Forces (with logistics, weapons, maintenance and other factors), why does the configuration of the front line not change dramatically in our favor?

            Because from OUR side the situation is hardly better.
            1. 0
              22 January 2023 11: 30
              I think now ours will save up reserves by February and let the brooms light up until they receive the iron promised by Ramstein, and in addition it will be possible to have a good time with the airfields for the arrival of weapons, especially long-range and BRINSTOUNs (Cruiser Moscow will be remembered for a long time).
              1. Alf
                0
                22 January 2023 20: 49
                Quote: hydrox
                I think now ours will save up reserves by February and let the brooms light up until they receive the iron promised by Ramstein, and in addition it will be possible to have a good time with the airfields for the arrival of weapons, especially long-range and BRINSTOUNs (Cruiser Moscow will be remembered for a long time).

                Your words, yes to God (General Staff) in the ears ...
                Quote: hydrox
                in addition, it will be possible to indulge well with the airfields for the arrival of weapons,

                And now it's impossible to do this? And until today, what prevented you from doing this?
        2. 0
          15 January 2023 21: 15
          I think we will talk about the Greek Leopard 1
        3. +3
          16 January 2023 01: 25
          And besides the 2 confirmed Turkish Leo2A4s destroyed by ATGMs, which they rather idiotically used, in the first case as a pillbox, in the second, in your photo, roll the field, did the Turks lose their Leo2 so many? Not tens or hundreds, like the T-72s, what kind of idiot do you have to be to put a tank under attack on a naked Leo2A4? I have no doubt that all received Leo2s will be brought to at least the A6M level, + the Leo2 engine and suspension can carry 10 tons of additional armor, the Ukrainians will cover them with additional side screens and DZ and they will have heavy assault vehicles, which you can not kill much. Of course, at the moment, until dozens of Bradleys, Marders, Leo2 and Challenger become a decisive force, in this form at least. They can, a dozen here, a dozen here, be used for reinforcement in some operations. But what many miss is the potential to develop into a tie-in tactic, Marder and Leo2, as well as other heavy VMPs like Bradley can contribute. Whatever one may say, this is a new situation for the RF Armed Forces at the front, although it takes several months for the Armed Forces of Ukraine to more or less learn how to use these machines tactically at the level of more experienced NATO countries.
          1. 0
            17 January 2023 01: 03
            So the USSR also racked its brains on how to burn this prodigy. It must have been in storage for a long time. And 10 leos will not make the weather. This is not a Hymers who hides more than shoots.
      3. -3
        15 January 2023 17: 49
        The weight of these monsters will not allow them to be used in forests, fields and villages! laughing their environment, these are urban agglomerations, where there is a lot of hard surface, so in the spring, if they appear, then for defensive battles, to protect Kiev in the first place, possibly Kharkov, the Armed Forces of Ukraine may drag them to Kramatorsk. In the forehead, these are extremely unpleasant opponents, and urban development blocks the sides and complicates the defeat of the roof by artillery or Lancet. They will still be weighed down with dynamic armor by the Armed Forces of Ukraine, serious mobile bunkers will turn out belay
        1. 0
          15 January 2023 21: 15
          Quote: Eroma
          The weight of these monsters will not allow them to be used in forests, fields and villages!
          And if you shoot at the cables that diverge from England along the bottom of the sea, you look at the British not before sending tanks to Ukraine, we won’t see them at all.
          1. 0
            22 January 2023 11: 39
            For the arrogant people, it will be enough to stick the Dagger into the take-off deck of their only aircraft carrier (and not to death, but only before the fire) and they will come out of this ukro-fascist war.
            And they will repair their aircraft carrier for 5 years, no less.
        2. Alf
          +2
          15 January 2023 23: 00
          Quote: Eroma
          The weight of these monsters will not allow them to be used in forests, fields and villages!

          2A6 weighs 60 tons. Caterpillar length 5 meters, width 63 cm. 500x63x2=63000 cm2. We divide 60 tons by 63000 cm2, we get a load on the soil of 1,05 kg / cm2. It gets hard...
          1. 0
            16 January 2023 01: 28
            Look at the tender from the beginning of the 90s for the supply of MBT to Sweden, where Leo2 and T-80 agreed and Leo2 showed himself very cheerfully. There are videos online.
            1. +1
              16 January 2023 16: 23
              Yeah. in winter and frozen ground. There remains the issue of maintenance.
          2. 0
            21 January 2023 16: 17
            Nobody will supply Leopard 2A6 to Ukraine, the maximum that they can give dill is 2A4, and even then not very much.
        3. 0
          21 January 2023 16: 14
          In the city, tanks burn first of all, a tank in the city is a clumsy and very noticeable target for modern RPGs.
          1. +1
            22 January 2023 11: 47
            By spring, the RA will have accumulated several thousand drones, and most of them will be shock suicides - then we'll see which of the imported pieces of iron catches fire faster.
      4. +2
        16 January 2023 09: 55
        Quote: svp67
        NATO now NEEDs a victorious operation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and as I understand it, most likely it will be the direction to Melitopol - Berdyansk, with access to the Sea of ​​​​Azov

        NATO is not thinking about any offensive now. Now they are most afraid that our offensive will begin in the second half of January / February, and the mobilized corps for the Armed Forces of Ukraine have not yet been prepared, armed and have not undergone combat coordination. And Wagner ground the Ukrainian reserves. Now is the time to advance our troops. Moreover, from any of the directions convenient for us, including "from Belarus along the border with Poland." The Armed Forces of Ukraine are now in the most vulnerable position. But by the middle / end of spring, they will noticeably get stronger due to fresh buildings.
        That is why the hysterical deliveries of "company kits" of various tanks, including wheeled French infantry fighting vehicles, Bradley and Marder infantry fighting vehicles. They need to help the APU hold out until mid-spring.
        And most of all they are afraid of our offensive from the north. That's where these emergency deliveries will go.
        1. -1
          17 January 2023 01: 33
          Quote: bayard
          And most of all they are afraid of our offensive from the north.

          It is unlikely that the flanks are open to pull such a gut to the Black Sea.

          To do this, it is necessary to mobilize, equip (wars are now hefty technologically advanced), the women must urgently give birth to commanders (from the squadron to the brigade level).
          The same time.
      5. +1
        16 January 2023 11: 35
        The direction to Melitopol - Berdyansk, with access to the Sea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbAzov, has been discussed for too long, both by the Armed Forces of Ukraine and by our military, probably for about half a year, so most likely, fortifications have already been created there that can hold the enemy. I don't want to believe that time is wasted on our part.
      6. 0
        17 January 2023 15: 30
        And we must take into account that if during the attack Ch and L appear accompanied by a sufficient number of T-72 and T-64, then ours will have a hard time. Of course, if a couple of pieces enter the battlefield, then they will most likely remain on the battlefield.
        1. 0
          22 January 2023 12: 53
          There will be no escort there: already now the T-64, and even then they are found in the reports once a week, what can I say about the T-72, especially the modernized ones ..
      7. 0
        17 January 2023 18: 43
        I largely agree with the author. But there is a note on Leopards. The Germans do not want to test them in Ukrainian conditions, fearing to lose this sales market as well.
        PS: by the way, about the T-5100 shot down at a distance of 55m, is that an accidental hit or a typo?
        1. 0
          22 January 2023 12: 57
          By the way, a week ago, Semyon Arkadyevich at Solovyov’s said something strange about the distance of hitting from a cannon of a T-55 tank at 14 km.
          Is this really true or did he just decide to have civilians?
    2. +5
      15 January 2023 13: 17
      Quote: YOUR
      Judging by what the Americans say about the transfer of the Bradley BMP to them, not earlier than in a year

      They say exactly the opposite. Question of weeks.
      1. -1
        19 January 2023 02: 55
        I don’t understand either, I often see comments about “delusions in a year”, where they came from. The Pentagon said it was a matter of weeks. Apparently they trained in advance, there were already videos from the Ukrainian side about training for Bradley. Yes, and it seems to me that if they calmly mastered the M113, then they will master the ravings just as quickly. After all, they came to replace them, so there is continuity.
      2. 0
        22 January 2023 13: 03
        Maybe we already need to test the strength against the KAB-500 of the runway coverage at the Polish Rzeszow airfield, or are the Poles accepting C5A Galaxy at another airfield?
    3. +1
      16 January 2023 04: 55
      And if we assume that the crews begin to train not from the moment the equipment is transferred, but the equipment begins to be transferred after there are already trained crews? Did someone interfere with starting to train crews 6 months ago at least?
    4. 0
      21 January 2023 16: 28
      There is no need for this hatred, the West will supply all of the listed weapons within a few weeks, and you need to be fully prepared for this right now.
  2. +12
    15 January 2023 05: 14
    The weight of the combat-ready Challenger is 71 tons ... what isn’t it too much for the bridges and spring-autumn roads of Ukraine ... further loading and unloading of 70 ton tanks requires special cranes and platforms ... these points and places in Ukraine are probably known to our intelligence ... there is a big risk for the British that beyond these places they won't leave them.
    And finally, special oils and ammunition for this equipment can also be tracked during transportation and destroyed on the way ... in general, there will be a lot of hemorrhoids for the Ukronazis.
    1. +17
      15 January 2023 05: 53
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      The weight of the combat-ready Challenger is 71 tons ... isn't it too much for the bridges and spring-autumn roads of Ukraine ...


      In my opinion, the British are not so much giving their tanks to Ukraine so that they actually fight in the Donbass, but in order to thus influence the position of Germany.
      Like, here we are giving tanks to Ukraine (and the French also have their wheeled ones), but why are you standing on the sidelines? Come on, join us.
      1. +5
        15 January 2023 13: 14
        Quote: Comrade
        In my opinion, the British are not so much giving their tanks to Ukraine so that they actually fight in the Donbass, but in order to thus influence the position of Germany.

        It's rare to find a sensible comment. Yes, the initiatives of Poland on Leo and Britain on the Challengers are still a stone in the Germans' garden. After the next Ramstein (the end of next week), the alignment will be more clear. No one is going to fight with one company of tanks. Although the same T-55S work.
    2. +5
      15 January 2023 05: 54
      Too much for bridges, but it will go fine on the ground. There is such a thing as specific pressure, and so for the Challenger it is almost the same as for the T-90 - 0,98 for the T-90 - 0.97
      1. +2
        15 January 2023 07: 03
        Quote: YOUR
        Too much for bridges, but it will go fine on the ground.

        And don’t tell me, they won’t get stuck, but they will lose sharply in mobility.

        12 captured Russian T-90s are much more valuable than a tank that did not go into mass production.
        With what? The same lack of a repair base? Because the statement about the same engine for the T-72 and T-90 is untenable.
        But in general, yes, the win will lose, with the Challenger for sure.
        1. +12
          15 January 2023 07: 53
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          And don’t tell me, they won’t get stuck, but they will lose sharply in mobility.

          In Iraq, they rushed through the sand and did not get stuck.
          Stop throwing your hats, the enemy is very serious. It is clear that 14 tanks, no matter how super duper they are, will not have any effect on the course of hostilities. As soon as they begin to participate in them, sooner or later they will burn or damage to the state of growls and not scary. The gun was fired, the chassis was smashed.

          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          12 captured Russian T-90s are much more valuable than a tank that did not go into mass production.
          With what? The same lack of a repair base? Because the statement about the same engine for the T-72 and T-90 is untenable.

          Why was this written to me?
          1. +2
            15 January 2023 09: 51
            Quote: YOUR
            In Iraq, they rushed through the sand and did not get stuck.

            The chelas did not run, but crawled, and mostly along the roads, but in the cities they showed themselves well.
            Quote: YOUR
            Stop throwing your hats, the enemy is very serious. It is clear that 14 tanks, no matter how super duper they are, will not have any effect on the course of hostilities.
            Well, that's what it's bad for.
            Quote: YOUR
            Why was this written to me?
            So as not to sculpt a separate comment. hi
          2. -1
            15 January 2023 20: 38
            Quote: YOUR
            In Iraq, they rushed through the sand and did not get stuck.

            In Kushka in 1989-1990, our tanks were quite stuck in the sand ...
            So worn in the desert - it's very unlikely
          3. Alf
            +2
            15 January 2023 23: 16
            Quote: YOUR
            In Iraq, they rushed through the sand and did not get stuck.

            Sand and mud are two different things. Did it rain a lot in Iraq?
        2. 0
          19 January 2023 00: 15
          Why would you lose mobility? There and the corresponding engine, as it were. X6th won what thugs, but you can’t refuse mobility
      2. +2
        15 January 2023 10: 17
        With a mass of 70 tons, the specific pressure will be much more than 1 kg per square centimeter.
        1. +2
          15 January 2023 11: 30
          Why guess. There is the Internet, all the performance characteristics of any tank, incl. and specific pressure.
          1. +1
            15 January 2023 12: 41
            But I don’t guess - in the later modifications of the Challenger, like Abrams, all have a specific pressure greater than 1.
          2. Alf
            +1
            15 January 2023 23: 17
            Quote: YOUR
            Why guess. There is the Internet, all the performance characteristics of any tank, incl. and specific pressure.

            Try to find the pressure in Challenger 2, fall in love. I have already turned the whole network over, I did not even find normal drawings with the dimensions of the supporting surface.
            1. +1
              15 January 2023 23: 43
              Quote: Alf
              Try to find pressure in Challenger 2

              http://pro-tank.ru/nato/england/330-tank-challenger-2
              1. Alf
                +2
                16 January 2023 00: 42
                Quote: Bad_gr
                http://pro-tank.ru/nato/england/330-tank-challenger-2

                Thanks, I didn't get there.
    3. +3
      15 January 2023 10: 43
      Is everything known to intelligence? Will they not leave further places of unloading? Well, yes, well, yes ... but before that, how was everything imported?
    4. 0
      15 January 2023 13: 09
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      And finally, special oils



      There are also wrenches of a net system.
      1. 0
        17 January 2023 07: 40
        Quote: Simple
        There are also wrenches of a net system.

        They can easily be inches. On the abrams, exactly inch.
    5. Alf
      +2
      15 January 2023 23: 02
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      these points and places in Ukraine are probably known to our intelligence ... there is a big risk for the British that they will not leave them further than these places.

      Many bridges and stations in the Western region have been destroyed? "Knowing" and "destroying" are two different things...
    6. 0
      16 January 2023 04: 57
      If this has not been done before, where did you get the idea that they will start doing it now?
  3. +7
    15 January 2023 05: 14
    Poles fight on crabs. I saw a video where Bandera talked about this. I think there will be Polish crews on the leopards.
    1. 0
      15 January 2023 05: 40
      IMHO A notorious oil repair kit. Not even with Poles in armor, tanks in the stated quantity before the first hit.
    2. +1
      15 January 2023 06: 22
      Plenty of these on the web. Mother them. The Poles will come and shoot and run away, but we get it.
  4. +9
    15 January 2023 05: 46
    Where will Challenger and Leopard arrive in Ukraine?

    It is known that from the Right-Bank Ukraine to the Left-Bank Ukraine, and then to the Donbass.
    But if "at the top" they make the long-awaited "popular decision" and finally pound on the bridges along which these same tanks will have to be transported from west to east, then these tanks will not go further than Right-Bank Ukraine.
    It makes no sense to protect the bridges "for oneself", they must have been mined by the uk-ra-mi long ago, and if the allied forces approach them, they will be blown up by a signal from Kyiv.
  5. +4
    15 January 2023 05: 56
    With or without red lines, NATO weapons will still go to the UK. (or you have doubts). So these passages were completely optional.
    1. +5
      15 January 2023 06: 15
      sadness is that only Ukraine will remain scorched earth, but it would be necessary that it be Poland, and Romania, and the Baltic states, and further ... to the West
      1. -1
        15 January 2023 13: 10
        Quote: prodi
        sadness is that only Ukraine will remain scorched earth

        Yes, it's annoying.
        Quote: prodi
        and further ... to the West

        There are other options.
  6. +3
    15 January 2023 06: 16
    I hope that there will be enough "Krasnopoles" for all the supplied "cats" and "callers" ...
    1. +1
      15 January 2023 14: 34
      Just as a reminder. Projectile Krasnopol high-explosive fragmentation. There are no armor-piercing. Of course, it will be unpleasant for the tank, but it will survive.
      1. Alf
        +3
        15 January 2023 23: 22
        Quote: YOUR
        Of course, it will be unpleasant for the tank, but it will survive.

        50 kg vertically into the roof of the tower or into the MTO? Hardly survive...
        1. -2
          15 January 2023 23: 48
          Quote: Alf
          50 kg vertically into the roof of the tower or into the MTO?

          Do you need a 152mm direct hit? However, you have requests.
          1. Alf
            +1
            16 January 2023 00: 45
            Quote: Negro
            Quote: Alf
            50 kg vertically into the roof of the tower or into the MTO?

            Do you need a 152mm direct hit? However, you have requests.

            And all my life I thought that in order to destroy a tank you need a direct hit .. It turns out that it’s enough to put a shell nearby ... But the anti-tankers don’t know this ...
            1. -3
              16 January 2023 02: 29
              Quote: Alf
              But the anti-tankers do not know this ...

              Anti-tankers do not use mounted fire, you see. There is nothing to catch with the Rapier against Leo / Challenger, unless the board shows. And to catch a tank from a howitzer - well, good luck.
  7. +5
    15 January 2023 06: 25
    Quote: YOUR
    Too much for bridges, but it will go fine on the ground. There is such a thing as specific pressure, and so for the Challenger it is almost the same as for the T-90 - 0,98 for the T-90 - 0.97

    And what is the specific power per ton of weight of the Challenger? smile
    It seems to me that the mobility on the battlefield of this dinosaur will be missed.
    1. +5
      15 January 2023 06: 47
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      And what is the specific power per ton of weight of the Challenger?

      16,0 horsepower per ton at weight 75,0 tons.
      18,7 horsepower per ton at weight 64 tons.
    2. 0
      21 January 2023 19: 59
      The maximum speed on the highway at the Challenger is 56 km / h, on rough terrain even less.
  8. -5
    15 January 2023 06: 58
    Malheureusement, le premier fournisseur d'armes à l'Ukraine reste encore la Russie.
    1. +1
      15 January 2023 10: 18
      Ce n'est qu'un fantasme...
    2. AUL
      +2
      15 January 2023 14: 41
      Quote from Raymond
      Malheureusement, le premier fournisseur d'armes à l'Ukraine reste encore la Russie.

      Raymond, if you read a Russian site in Russian, then write comments in Russian, don't show off!
      1. -1
        15 January 2023 17: 55
        He does not read Russian, here the auto-translator built into the site translates everything into foreign languages.
        1. Alf
          +1
          15 January 2023 23: 24
          Quote: Dmitry Rigov
          He does not read Russian, here the auto-translator built into the site translates everything into foreign languages.

          But how does Krasnodar read and write? No matter how Israel is not Russia ...
          1. 0
            16 January 2023 17: 23
            But how does Krasnodar read and write? No matter how Israel is not Russia ..

            The connection between Krasnodar and Israel is very conditional. For many years he has been selling apples grown by his father-in-law in the Krasnodar Territory. Once he lived in Israel and served in the local army military service. And before that - he lived in the Soviet Union and therefore is fluent in Russian - he does not need an interpreter. And who will bother with the translation of the site into Hebrew?! It's too much.
    3. 0
      16 January 2023 21: 32
      vous vous trompez très bien lorsque vous croyez les affirmations mensongères et vantardes de l'armée ukrainienne.
  9. +4
    15 January 2023 07: 31
    It is not worth hoping for the unreliability of Western tanks. These are perfect filling machines. And a very formidable and problematic opponent. They have one, but the biggest drawback: a huge mass. In the open field - okay. But all sorts of rivers, bridges, etc. Under the big question. How to pull such a hippopotamus out of the mud is generally incomprehensible.
    1. +3
      15 January 2023 08: 15
      In America, they are taken to exercises on tracks.
      I doubt that they will do the same in Ukraine
      1. +1
        15 January 2023 09: 33
        To do this, you need to put special equipment. They don't talk about it. Everyone cares - tanks. And a lot of things should be relied on for tanks. Therefore, it seems, they are sending a minuscule amount so far.
  10. +3
    15 January 2023 08: 13
    Everything written by Roman is correct, except for one significant nuance. And it’s not anyone who will bother, it will all just be one-time. What repair bats, what kind of service are you talking about. Yes, what remains can and will be tried to be repaired, if at all. That is why the Germans do not want to ship their equipment to Ukraine. They took it and threw it away.
  11. +5
    15 January 2023 08: 15
    It's time for us to stop fighting at half strength - unloading a train with weapons is a long task, but these trains travel calmly across Ukraine. The West hits our weak points, but we don’t touch their weak points - God forbid, we will upset our partners
    1. +3
      15 January 2023 11: 43
      We don't touch because we can't. We can't quickly trace the echelons with weapons. We have problems with reconnaissance and target designation, and these problems are much worse than several "bourgeois" tanks.
    2. 0
      15 January 2023 14: 04
      There apparently some goods in the EU are still going. Gas is still being supplied to Ukraine.
  12. -3
    15 January 2023 08: 35
    listen to the author so all the guns we have are not the same !! and they shoot crookedly and the range is short! maybe you don’t need to write all this, the Khan guards us ???
    1. +2
      15 January 2023 11: 44
      What should be written? "All is well beautiful Marquise"?
  13. +7
    15 January 2023 09: 11
    Yes, what to worry about them, they will cope with the technical issue, only the question arises, how is it that their self-propelled guns and artillery systems are better than ours and easily shoot ours, how is it that our jet systems are inferior to American ones and this is not even the most modern. What have we been doing all this time, spent 20 years on parades, and without any show they are armed with weapons better than us. Who should be responsible for this, I understand that the one who led us to this does not care deeply about the lives of our soldiers, if before that they did not care about the ordinary people who are now on the front lines.
    1. +9
      15 January 2023 09: 37
      It's over. They were engaged in parades and reassured themselves with unification. The leadership of the Moscow Region, who is in charge of industrial orders, did not catch mice at all. The same "Coalition" was proposed a very long time ago. And they all wander around like girls. Either the color is not the same, then the style, then the heels do not knock. And then the Polish junk comes and easily shoots ours. How much I heard enough of all sorts of "experts" of the military during this time, I understood one thing: as they were not-do-mka-mi, they remained. Although, like, with age, opinion could change. Why didn’t they write about those 777 .... These ... "people in uniform", like children, they can only compare numbers on pieces of paper. And they are not given to understand the essence of military equipment. She stood in their parks and did show-off during exercises, sometimes.
      We didn’t have an army, but a scarecrow of those around us. And she was preparing for the same, and not for war.
    2. -1
      15 January 2023 12: 00
      Agree. For 20 years they have been squandered for no one knows what, and modern weapons are not in mass production. Personally, I think so in space, our art shoots worse. Western satellites are always better and more accurate. From that and art they are better. But there are more satellites, so they have fewer communication problems
      1. 0
        22 January 2023 12: 18
        It's only WHILE more, until it's impatient: probably everyone noticed that no one drew red lines in space. But everyone should understand that breaking is not building, it is done easier and with pleasure, and if it does bring benefits, it will be specially celebrated.
    3. +6
      16 January 2023 00: 11
      Quote: OLEG CZIGANOV
      What have we been doing all this time, spent 20 years on parades, and without any show they are armed with weapons better than us. Who should be responsible for this, I understand that the one who led us to this does not care deeply about the lives of our soldiers, if before that they did not care about the ordinary people who are now on the front lines.

      )))
      How interesting it must be. It turns out that the state of affairs in the army is about the same as in education, medicine, cops, housing and communal services, etc. What a surprise, no one could have expected this!
      1. 0
        22 January 2023 12: 23
        How is it "no one could expect"?!
        No one ever expected anything good from Liberda, which is why they are now saying to our NATO conquerors: "There is no point in conquering Russia now, for 30 years it has been plundered to the last thread!!"
  14. +4
    15 January 2023 09: 11
    Yes, they will simply drive the tanks into places prepared and open in advance and will use them as guns. Well, or they will collect for one breakthrough. And how many tanks will live there for an hour? Day? Well, take a week. So tank repair, unlike self-propelled guns, is probably the least that the enemy cares about
    1. 0
      15 January 2023 18: 20
      Quote: Last centurion
      Yes, they will simply drive the tanks into places prepared and open in advance and will use them as guns.
      In the article, the author writes about the fact that the Challenger has a rifled and very accurate gun (which means the sight is very good) hits aimingly at a distance of 2-5km - so there will be such a "shooter" to knock out our tanks from afar, but how can we answer? ...
      At the "Tank Biathlon" where the best crews from the whole army performed - the performance in tank shooting was "not ideal" - every miss in the war, against a real enemy, and not a plywood target, will lead to losses.
      What has already taken place in the Second World War will be repeated - the "Tiger" hits from afar and very accurately, and the T-34 is forced to get closer and shoot "point blank".
      sad
      1. +1
        16 January 2023 00: 13
        Quote: cat Rusich
        In the article, the author writes about the fact that the "Challenger" has a rifled and very accurate gun (which means that the sight is very good) hits accurately at a distance of 2-5 km - so such a "shooter" will knock out our tanks from afar, and how can we answer? ...

        Tanks are not the primary target. As an infantry support vehicle for direct fire, the Englishman is exceptionally good. In fact, the main disadvantage is that it is not unified in terms of ammunition with the rest of NATO.
      2. 0
        22 January 2023 12: 30
        Now, let the military aviation tell us now: Helicopter ATGMs that are issued from a pitch-up, what probability they have of hitting a tank and at what Distance.
        The numbers give 8 and 10 km - is this true and how does the hit end: igniting or breaking the tower from the detonation of the ammo?
  15. 0
    15 January 2023 09: 52
    Well, let's hope that the logistical problems can be solved. Our grandfathers fought on lend-lease tanks, which means that this can be solved.
  16. -6
    15 January 2023 10: 03
    After reading this, you understand that the author "floats" in technique - just for reference - our Coalition is better than ANY Western self-propelled guns in all respects.
    Further on the nomenclature of tanks at Bender. Without understanding how many cars they have left, these lists are complete nonsense. Also, some 12 T-90s were entered there. It was necessary to immediately along Tymchak - poter ne, the troops fell to Maskvoy.
    No one (except for the intelligence of our Defense Ministry) has data. But judging by direct data (those losses of armored vehicles by Benders - our Ministry of Defense brings them every day), it is clearly visible that since the beginning of December of the month, tanks have practically disappeared there - they slip as "often" as airplanes helicopters - those give boh 1-3 pieces during the week. Which suggests that, in my understanding, in reality, Bender tanks already have almost zero. This, among other things, explains that those 200s that our Air Force put to rest broke through to release their own to Soledar - only on mraps and infantry fighting vehicles. In general, those in the outskirts of the Armed Forces practically already even stupidly have no armored personnel carriers, not like tanks.
    From here already these - fall Leopards and Bradleys and quickly. Which is logical.
    1. +2
      15 January 2023 11: 50
      Compare with Archer in terms of performance characteristics, in my opinion the best self-propelled guns at the moment, but not lobbied for deliveries. Don't throw your hats.
  17. +7
    15 January 2023 10: 18
    Quote: Mikhail Kazakov
    The coalition is better than ANY Western self-propelled guns in all respects.

    And what's the point? Those self-propelled guns are mass-produced and shoot at us, but the Coalition is not.
    1. +2
      15 January 2023 11: 49
      While the Coalition is not in the military, one can not talk about it. There is no her.
      1. -1
        15 January 2023 17: 09
        Why is the Coalition better than the same PZ 2000?
  18. PXL
    +1
    15 January 2023 11: 48
    Duck, neither Leo nor Che was put in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, but they were already enrolled in the current composition of the Armed Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. 5 "Holds" - nonsense, 10 - Leo - strength.
    As for the Ukrov self-propelled guns, it’s also interesting. Doesn't our aviation work on them?
    1. 0
      22 January 2023 12: 35
      Works: Acacias and Carnations daily, and the Germans with the French no more than once a week, as well as 3 Axes
  19. +6
    15 January 2023 11: 54
    Ah yes Uralvagonzavod what good fellows! Together with our brilliant officers, we delivered to the enemy 12 of the latest t 90 M!
    Overfulfilled the plan!!! Comrades, you are on the right path.
    When I read this, I don’t really understand how we haven’t fallen apart with such idiots in power yet. It seems that God himself controls this situation, otherwise those who now rule could ruin any country, even China and Switzerland would not have withstood such an onslaught of idiocy.
    1. +1
      15 January 2023 12: 50
      All this is just a show that unfolds according to a premeditated plan and is conducted by those who are behind these plans.
    2. Alf
      +4
      15 January 2023 23: 29
      Quote from: newtc7
      Ah yes uralvagonzavod what good fellows!

      Do not distort, Herr Lieutenant! What side is the plant here?
    3. +1
      22 January 2023 23: 36
      And what does Uralvagonzavod have to do with it, are you completely de-beating stupid or what, is it that the plant is transferring tanks to the enemy, why flog this ridiculous nonsense here ???
  20. The comment was deleted.
  21. 0
    15 January 2023 13: 31
    I also see it as a kind of exploration through struggle. It will not work to make all the tanks at once, but manual soldiers will perfectly check the tanks. This will definitely not be the glory of NATO, it will be a shame for the West. You can do it, you are really brave soldiers. am
  22. 0
    15 January 2023 14: 22
    Of course, I understand everything, but why has the T90 already been put into service with the Armed Forces? 5 captured tanks does not mean that they are in service. Yes, and T62 they convert all captured ones into engineering ones, because there are no shells or spare parts
  23. -3
    15 January 2023 15: 04
    The Challenger didn’t go anywhere, and the Leopold A4 is about the level of the t-62m ... Well, maybe a little better. But up to 72b3m it’s like walking to Beijing ... They themselves have been transferring a5 to a6 for a long time. Well, a7 is clear there are fewer of them than armat, but A4 is a pancake of the last century ...
    1. -2
      15 January 2023 15: 21
      Quote: Georgy Sviridov_2
      A4 is a pancake of the last century ...

      You are very surprising, but in the T-72 the number 72 is the year. 73rd, to be exact. Leo 2 appeared later than any Sovietoid (except for the T-90, if we consider it a separate tank).
      Quote: Georgy Sviridov_2
      a7 clearly has fewer of them than armat

      Significantly more.
      Quote: Georgy Sviridov_2
      Leopold A4 is approximately the level of t-62m ... Well, maybe a little better. But up to 72b3m they are like walking to Beijing ...

      This is up to seven for him as before Beijing - although there are no sevens in Beijing. And any 72-ki is stronger, especially if nothing except Mango was delivered.
      1. 0
        19 January 2023 19: 55
        That's why I wrote t72b3, I understand that leopard 2 and t72 are tanks of the same age. Moreover, if we take German leopards a6 and compare with t72b3, then the comparison is largely in favor of the Leopard ... Only the difference between A4 and A6 is colossal, approximately like that of t90a and t90m ... And even more, approximately like that of t72b and t90m...
    2. +1
      16 January 2023 23: 17
      Quote: Georgy Sviridov_2
      The Challenger didn’t go anywhere, and the Leopold A4 is about the level of the t-62m ... Well, maybe a little better. But up to 72b3m they are like walking to Beijing ... ...

      A4 level 72BU with the best armor protection of the latter, even without remote sensing. In terms of armor protection A4 - level 72B of the release of 85 without remote sensing. Western tanks do not have high-explosive shells.
  24. -1
    15 January 2023 16: 55
    Excuse me, is it possible to find out how as many as 12 t90s became trophies? This is betrayal, incompetence or something.
  25. 0
    15 January 2023 18: 38
    Finally, the author wrote a decent material! All to the point! Rembaza, spare parts and technical support - the basis of success in the end.
    Ukrainians are waiting for a miracle, which is not and will not be. Europe, as always, is pragmatic and rational (although there are now many questions about the rationality of Europe). They want to get away with giving, but knowing in advance that there will be no result ... The whole question is different, but why downvote yourself? And I will raise another little-covered topic today, when the Ukrainian lies down completely, the Poles will come to replace him, and when the Poles lie down completely (it will be orders of magnitude faster than the Ukrainian), who will meet us in Europe ??? Beggars, barefoot and kind?
  26. 0
    15 January 2023 18: 41
    Quote: Kirill Prozorovski
    Excuse me, is it possible to find out how as many as 12 t90s became trophies?

    The hard truth of life! The first question, we had units of this equipment at the first stage of the operation, each tank has a first name, surname and patronymic, where are the villains responsible for the abandoned equipment not difficult to guess? The pentathlete knows for sure, but is silent...
    1. -4
      15 January 2023 19: 27
      What else is the truth of life? The author is simply a LIAR (as for the t90 12pcs) There is only 1 video confirmation of the capture of the t90 tank and that is out of order! number of tanks? Knowing the horses, they would have posted bragging about these tanks long ago!
  27. -4
    15 January 2023 18: 46
    Quote from: newtc7
    even China and Switzerland could not withstand such an onslaught of idiocy.

    Man stand strong! I survived the nineties. I come to practice at a defense enterprise, and there all the specialists drink ... I ask, what is the reason? They say: "We have already sold!". Something like this... And they sold people like Abramovich and others like him. The war will end, we will win, we will expel these, Russia is eternal!
  28. 0
    15 January 2023 20: 05
    I agree that a couple of dozen tanks will not affect the front like a couple of dozen self-propelled guns.
    But as one of the options, maybe they want to test equipment against domestic artillery and tanks. What if something happens (if they see that tank formations equipped with their tanks, on average, win more often than units equipped with post-Soviet equipment) to start more massive deliveries. If the advantages are not confirmed, they will continue to throw off tanks in small batches (in homeopathic quantities), purely to keep the conflict burning and the loyalty of Ukraine. And if successful, it will be possible to equip the Armed Forces of Ukraine in large quantities, at the same time stimulating their economy and production to upgrade their fleet of equipment.
  29. -2
    15 January 2023 21: 02
    I read your article Roman.
    Everything is written correctly.
    In fact, it is necessary not to discuss tanks, but about escalation.
    I offer as a continuation of my understanding of the development of events
    https://t.me/redbiker/462
    Regarding TANKS ...
    All the same, I think that the West will not resist the temptation to poke us and ...
    They will send Leopards 1, maybe even a lot.
    Only Greece has more than half a thousand of them. Well, what to do with them?
    They seem to be like tanks, but they have already earned a place in the museum
    It seems like a gift horse and cancer in the absence of fish.
    If they start burning together with Bandera, then Germany will not have much image losses.
    The tanks are old. side armor 35-40 mm.
    For the same reason, it will also be difficult for Russian diplomats to be indignant.
    Bradley and the Marders pose a great danger in the current war.
    In general, in the history of tanks, what strikes me most of all is the depth of degradation of the Reich's coming out.
    Having inherited world-class tank building in Kharkov, but begging for tank-junk all over the world ...
    1. +1
      15 January 2023 21: 11
      Author's quote-
      “Therefore, if you ask the question “how many”, say, the same German PzH 2000 self-propelled guns (the APU received 28 pieces), then the answer will be “decently.” Indeed, these mobile, accurate and long-range howitzers are capable of delivering very tangible strikes from an absolutely safe distance for yourself"
      With a PzH 2000 firing range of 30 - 50 km for conventional and 67 km for active-reactive ones, it will not work to strike from an absolutely safe distance.
  30. +1
    15 January 2023 21: 25
    Draw your "red lines" until you run out of paint, and we will do as we see fit. That is, to give Ukraine more and more modern models of weapons.

    And why not deprive this insolent Russophobic bastard of this opportunity?
    May be, at last, gouging the transport network on the border of Ukraine, bridges through which Western equipment is imported there? Or again someone's business interests will suffer?
    1. Alf
      +3
      15 January 2023 23: 32
      Quote: Goldmitro
      Or again someone's business interests will suffer?

      And what do you think ? Around "partners" and still "partners" ...
  31. 0
    15 January 2023 21: 31
    Since the author is so in the subject, I would like to hear his opinion on how many German leopards need to be supplied so that the Ukrainian army can turn the tide of hostilities. After all, it is believed that it is Russia that has the most mass production of tanks in the world, as well as the most massive tank fleet in the world. For a breakthrough, we need to surpass our tank fleet quantitatively, or achieve numerical parity with a clear qualitative advantage. Is Germany capable of doing this in principle now? I would like specifics from the author ....
    1. +3
      15 January 2023 21: 56
      Some kind of strange formulation of the question.
      Quote: Victor Masyuk
      how many German leopards need to be delivered so that the Ukrainian army can turn the tide of hostilities.

      What does it mean to "turn the tide of hostilities"? If you mean "to switch from fighting for the next industrial zone to active operations" - then not at all, in the fall of last year, no Leopards were needed. If "to achieve a total advantage in the tank component" - then to completely replace all Ukrainian tanks in personnel units with Western Type, 600-800 vehicles are needed with further maintenance of numbers.
      Quote: Victor Masyuk
      it is Russia that has the most mass production of tanks in the world, as well as the most massive tank fleet in the world.

      Yes, but it doesn't really matter.
      Quote: Victor Masyuk
      Is Germany capable of doing this in principle now?

      Separately, Germany - no, NATO as a whole - yes.
    2. Alf
      +2
      15 January 2023 23: 35
      Quote: Victor Masyuk
      Russia has the most mass production of tanks in the world,

      The Soviet Union had such production, but not modern Russia.
      Quote: Victor Masyuk
      also the most massive tank fleet in the world.

      Again, under the USSR, but how much is really there now, and not on paper? The T-62 is listed, but how is it compared to the T-64, T-72?
      1. 0
        15 January 2023 23: 45
        Quote: Alf
        Russia has the most mass production of tanks in the world,

        The Soviet Union had such production, but not modern Russia.

        Well, the production of tanks in pieces is really quite large. Western type tanks are produced very slowly, the same Korean - about one car a week. And they have accelerated even more in the last year.
        On the other hand, the same Abrams can be raised and upgraded much faster.
        Quote: Alf
        also the most massive tank fleet in the world.

        Third after China and North Korea. If you count with storage, then the most. However, it is not so easy to raise and modernize this.
        1. Alf
          +1
          16 January 2023 00: 41
          Quote: Negro
          However, it is not so easy to raise and modernize this.

          What is it about...
      2. +2
        16 January 2023 15: 02
        Also interesting. And it will be like with uniforms. There seem to be 1,5 million sets ... but they are not ...
  32. +1
    16 January 2023 01: 38
    to hell with them with tanks, did the pershings destroy the tea-leaves or mothballed them?
  33. -2
    16 January 2023 02: 12
    Correct me, experts, but the life of a tank in battle is tens of minutes. With entrances - departures hours. They carry hundreds of kilometers already on trailers and well. e. What is there to break especially? Those are consumables!
    1. 0
      16 January 2023 08: 09
      It all depends on the tactics of using the tank. Western principle: this is a cannon that should hammer so as not to be hit by anti-tank weapons. We went forward, received resistance, rolled back and were hammering with artillery and the same tanks, plus aviation and helicopters. In this case, the tank lives for years, but ... if NATO is at war with Iraq. In Ukraine, these Western monsters are unlikely to live even a month from the moment they cross the border, if, of course, they can be delivered to the front at all, since the bridges are not designed to carry 60 ton tanks.
    2. Alf
      0
      16 January 2023 19: 11
      Quote: acetophenon
      They carry hundreds of kilometers already on trailers and well. d.

      And in WW2, did tanks move on their own at such distances?
      Quote: acetophenon
      the life of a tank in battle is tens of minutes.

      If there is a "correct" combined-arms battle according to the charter and with a first-class enemy, when against a tank and infantry RPGs and anti-tank anti-tank missiles and helicopters with Cheburashki and MLRS with cumulative cassettes. In / on such battles during the day with fire is not visible ...
    3. +2
      16 January 2023 20: 45
      I do not pretend to be an expert, but still I will allow myself to intervene.
      “Time to live in combat” is a very abstract and detached from reality mathematical quantity necessary for calculations in military tasks.
      If you do not go deep enough, then the lifetime allows you to calculate the ability of the subunit to maintain combat effectiveness after overcoming the distance from the line of deployment of the column to the direct opening of fire on the enemy. That is, if during these 10 minutes the tanks (part of the tanks) manage to drive up and fire, then the attack will be conditionally successful. And if not, then you need more tanks (so that at least the remnants get there) or cancel the attack.
      Thus, if the attack was successful, then the life time counter is "reset" and the tank continues to exist perfectly. Major maintenance at Leopard 2 after 10.000 km, which clearly implies more than 10 minutes of use.
      More information about the issue of life time in battle can be found (including) on ​​a third-party resource: https://www.techinsider.ru/weapon/348332-zhizn-dlinoyu-polchasa-skolko-zhivyot-podrazdelenie-v-boyu/
  34. +2
    16 January 2023 03: 10
    Just for reference: Bios is an abbreviation. Indicates the basic input/output system. Accordingly, the base bios is oil oil
  35. +1
    16 January 2023 08: 06
    Yes, the APU is the dream of logistics, you can steal and no one will understand anything. A bunch of motley equipment, it is not clear what, where, how much, everything uses different ammunition, fuel. Challengers and Leopards guzzle fuel in such a way that a tank must go behind the tank in order to travel several hundred kilometers, the roads will not stand it at all, the bridges even more so.
  36. 0
    16 January 2023 10: 21
    So what prevents them from collecting crews for them from Western PMCs
  37. 0
    16 January 2023 11: 32
    If they say they will deliver, then they have already delivered, as is usually the case. Now they will simply pass the papers on the delivery, put signatures and legalize this equipment already at the front. Suppliers for the Armed Forces of Ukraine have been working on this principle for a long time. There will be no time for high-quality training in the management of equipment and repairs, the basics will be given in advance. The West needs victories to show citizens inside the country where the money is going.
  38. +1
    16 January 2023 14: 46
    1. Put aside hatred
    2. Why write about logistics and tank repair if:
    2.1. the task is to bleed Russia as much as possible, or rather the young and capable population
    2.2. they don’t care how many Ukrainians die, their task is to take more Russians with them, so there’s no need to repair equipment or change the oil, the most important thing is that it would be enough for a couple of fights
    3. Ukropskaya new self-propelled artillery would be a pile of metal if we had monitoring of the territory of Ukraine 24 by 7, but here we have a complete bottom
    4. If Russia continues to selectively approach the issue of SVO, then we will get nothing but zinc coffins
  39. 0
    16 January 2023 17: 30
    Leopards and Challengers, in theory, should quickly begin shell hunger
    1. -1
      16 January 2023 18: 03
      Quote: futurohunter
      Leopards and Challengers, in theory, shell hunger should begin quickly

      Why would suddenly? Especially Leo?
      1. +1
        16 January 2023 18: 33
        hi
        Well, how about what?

        January 16th. Here, Mr. Medvedchuk has given birth to articles, in short - the new savior of Ukraine is forming the party. "The Ukrainian conflict will either grow further, spreading to Europe and other countries, or will be localized and resolved. But how can it be resolved if the party of war reigns supreme in Ukraine, whipping up military hysteria, which has already gone beyond the borders of the country, and for some reason the West stubbornly calls it democracy? And this party of war declares an infinite number of times that it does not need any peace, but it needs more weapons and money for the war. These people built their politics and business on the war, sharply raised their international ratings. In Europe and the USA they are greeted with applause, they should not be asked uncomfortable questions, doubt their sincerity and truthfulness. The Ukrainian war party is gaining triumph after triumph, while no military turning point is observed.
        .....
        But the Ukrainian Peace Party is not favored either in Europe or in the USA.
        If the West does not want to listen to the point of view of another Ukraine, then this is its business, but for Ukraine such a point of view is important and necessary, otherwise this nightmare will never end. This means that it is necessary to create a political movement from those who did not give up, who did not renounce their beliefs on pain of death and prison, who do not want their country to become a place of geopolitical showdowns. The world must hear such people, no matter how much the West demands a monopoly on the truth. The Ukrainian situation is catastrophically complex and dangerous, but it has nothing to do with what Zelensky says every day.
        "https://iz.ru/1454275/viktor-medvedchuk/ukrainskii-sindrom-anatomia-sovremennogo-voennogo-protivostoianiia

        January 11th. Mr. Gerasimov"The Chief of the Russian General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, General of the Army Valery Gerasimov, led a joint group of troops in the zone of a special military operation (NVO) in Ukraine, the Russian Defense Ministry said on Wednesday. Raising the level of management of a special military operation is associated with the expansion of the scale of tasks solved in the course of its implementation, the need to organize closer interaction between the branches and branches of the Armed Forces, as well as improving the quality of all types of support and the effectiveness of command and control of groupings of troops (forces)," the statement said. Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation."https://www.interfax.ru/russia/880358

        It is quite obvious from these two news, and especially - on the example (well, let's take the fantasy number-1444) of the 1444 regiment, that soon somewhere in / in Ukraine (IMHO, near Kyiv - not in Bakhmut / Artemovsk dear people Medvedchuk to go) the Armed Forces of Ukraine will have a large shortage of not only 120 mm tank shells, but also shells for artillery, MLRS and so on.
        "Forest Run #2" will be extraordinary, it wasn't like that with BB2.

        No, it is possible that these two very reasonable people will dissuade a mutual friend from drastic actions and ask him to confine himself to the LDNR and two more regions (experience, so to speak, is a thing to come, whether you like it or not; especially the experience is fresh, and years from driving around the Kyiv region. it did not pass).
        But who knows?
        If they dissuade them, then of course, in the case of "okay, LDNR and 2 regions" of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, there may be enough shells.
  40. VB
    +1
    16 January 2023 18: 21
    The main thing: “They just openly say to Russia: we are no longer afraid of you. Draw your “red lines” until you run out of paint, and we will do as we consider necessary. That is, to give Ukraine more and more modern weapons. What to do, the weak are always despised, humiliated and beaten." What have we come to. In addition to hatred, we have lived to contempt. The fear has passed. The results of the activities of the commander in chief, plywood, Gerasimov, etc. They flew to Dnepropetrovsk, so they turned around, regretting. And that our Donetsk is being smashed, well, it happens. They do not remember the oath, where it is written "to defend to the last drop of blood." It’s better to send your daughter to the Emirates for what you have earned by overwork.
  41. 0
    16 January 2023 19: 33
    From the article I understood only one thing. Our tanks must be equipped with a self-detonation mechanism so that it does not reach the enemy. As for Western tanks, the Germans will earn themselves bad publicity after their tin cans burn.
    1. VB
      0
      16 January 2023 19: 51
      In the Second World War, tankers who abandoned an undestroyed, burned-out tank could easily go under the tribunal and stand against the wall. Any number of examples in memoirs, memoirs. A friend's father caught fire four times. The Kingdom of heaven.
  42. exo
    +1
    16 January 2023 19: 52
    If tanks and infantry fighting vehicles come with the NATO data exchange system, their arrival will be a big problem. Despite the fact that our Constellation is practically not used on the battlefield.
  43. 0
    16 January 2023 23: 27
    Many cases have been recorded when the recognized authority of close anti-tank combat RPG-7 did not penetrate the armor of a British tank.

    And how can an RPG-7 penetrate armor? RPG-7 thrown into armor? In this way, the RPG-7 will definitely not penetrate the armor.
  44. -1
    17 January 2023 00: 19
    They can go anywhere, anyway, now there are essentially no tank battles, 90% art duel
  45. 0
    17 January 2023 07: 23
    In Var Thunder, Challengers ram from ram, there was a case that the real English tanker did not like the characteristics of the Challenger in the game and he leaked secret documents to the forum, our tankers will check what they are in reality, but the Leopards in the game are good, especially 2A6 and 2A7, but 2A4s are easily broken through with a "crowbar" from the T-72 and T-80
  46. 0
    17 January 2023 11: 43
    We have a little time left - until summer .. And there they will simply start to beat NATO troops ... And there are no reserves ... Only populist dreams .. But okay Putin .. he does as he understands and what he can in his unenviable position .. And what do a lot of generals hope for? The first echelon of NATO -300 thousand from 1000 tanks and aircraft ... Well? realized the gravity of the situation...
  47. 0
    17 January 2023 16: 11
    Friends, do not write nonsense, the Americans are not fools, they have already trained and are teaching Ukrainians, perhaps not only tankers but also pilots, and of course they did not think about the Remrots. Well, stupid, they thought at VO but they didn’t. Well stupid
  48. 0
    18 January 2023 09: 16
    Indeed, these mobile, accurate and long-range howitzers are capable of inflicting very tangible strikes from an absolutely safe distance for themselves.


    Oh really!
    There is no "absolutely safe distance" in real databases. Artillery systems do not necessarily have to be hit by similar weapons. The enemy can and should use the entire range of destructive weapons: from attack aircraft and drones to MLRS.
    Everything depends on the effectiveness of reconnaissance and timely target designation, on tactical skills and efficiency. And any "wunderwaffle" can be taken out at a time, acting competently.
  49. 0
    18 January 2023 09: 25
    Many cases have been recorded when the recognized authority of close anti-tank combat RPG-7 did not penetrate the armor of a British tank.


    RPG-7 - not even yesterday, but the day before yesterday. And using RPGs against a tank is not the best idea, there have been ATGMs for a long time,
    1. 0
      21 January 2023 20: 23
      And what does the RPG-7 have to do with it, you are far behind the times, much more modern and powerful anti-tank grenade launchers, such as the RPG-29 Vampire, have long been developed and tested, with its tandem ammunition it is guaranteed to hit Challengers, Abrams, Leopards and Merkavas, armor penetration from this RPGs up to 1500 mm of combined tank armor and no active protection will help here.
  50. 0
    18 January 2023 11: 39
    with all my philanthropy, I would like to know, but someone was responsible for the fact that the APU has 12 captured T-90 tanks?
    Only a couple of hundred of these tanks were produced
    1. 0
      21 January 2023 20: 29
      Do not smack ridiculous nonsense, more than 90 units of these tanks have already been produced in the T300M modification alone, and T90S back in 2018 in our armored units there were more than 500 units.
  51. -1
    19 January 2023 00: 05
    Technicians are not attack aircraft; tank suppliers can easily send technicians to the rear. It is important whether they will be allowed to tow the tank or not. So I consider the problems of the personnel far-fetched, and in general the supply of them with consumables is also
  52. 0
    25 January 2023 15: 00
    What other color will the red lines in Ukraine be painted after the delivery of Leopard and Abrams tanks?
  53. 0
    31 May 2023 19: 32
    Every one is using this opportunity to get rid of 50 years stuff!!
    if not now... then never..