Ukraine vs. Russia: artillery

Today, in the course of military operations of the Northern Military District, artillery, like a century ago, plays the most significant role. Aviation, which so well provided an advantage during the Second World War, is practically not used today, being practically countered by air defense systems.

The theater of operations has a new weapon, a kamikaze drone and high-precision missiles of the Hymars type, but hardly anyone will try to downplay the role of artillery. "Hymars", "Tornado-S", an ordinary barrel with "Excalibur" or "Krasnopol" - it's all good, these are swords that can inflict a fatal thrust, as happened in the same Makiivka. But the usual cannon artillery in decent quantities is a club that will beat the enemy until he is completely destroyed. An ideal tool for processing the front edge and rear of the enemy.

Everything that has been happening in the Donbas since 2014 to this day is a saga of two calibers, 120mm and 152mm. A mortar and a howitzer, everything else is the same ... Now the 155-mm caliber, which is more long-range and more accurate, definitely rules the ball. Of course, no one is going to underestimate the capabilities of 152-mm howitzers, but if we talk about counter-battery firing, then longer-range 155-mm guns have a clear advantage.

If we are talking about the capabilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and Azerbaijan, then everything must be considered from different positions. If you look at the payroll of the artillery of the two armies, they look different. We, I repeat, are talking about cannon artillery, both self-propelled and towed.

The Russian army is armed with 9 types of self-propelled guns and mortars and 6 towed ones.

The army of Ukraine is armed with 15 types of self-propelled guns and mortars and 24 types of towed guns and mortars.

On the one hand, what the Armed Forces own is a terrible mess and a complete cancer of the brain for logisticians and suppliers. 15 types against 39 - it looks scary, because all 39 models of Ukrainian guns and mortars require spare parts, equipment, and the worst thing - shells. 3 mortar calibers (60mm, 82mm, 120mm) and 6 gun calibers (105mm, 120mm, 122mm, 130mm, 152mm, 155mm) is a lot.

For comparison, the AR artillery operates 3 calibers of mortars (82 mm, 120 mm and 240 mm) and 3 calibers of guns (122 mm, 152 mm and 203 mm). The difference, although small, is there.

In order to get a picture of what is happening, we will begin to cross out those systems that are in service with both armies.

Mortars

The 82-mm mortar 2B14 "Tray" is in service with both armies.
The 82-mm automatic mortar 2S9 "Vasilek" is in service with both armies.
The 120-mm mortar 2S19 "Sani" is in service with both armies.
The 120-mm gun-howitzer-mortar 2B16 "Nona-K" is in service with both armies. In the Russian army, of course, there are many times more guns than in the Ukrainian one.

Towed artillery

122-mm howitzer D-30. It is in service with both armies.
152-mm howitzer 2A65 "Msta-B". It is in service with both armies.
152-mm gun 2A36 "Hyacinth-B". It is in service with both armies.

Separately, it should be emphasized that ALL the listed artillery systems were developed and produced in the Soviet Union, which led to their presence in the ranks of both armies.

The newest of the Russian towed systems, the Msta-B, was developed in the 70-80s of the last century and, with a very big stretch, can be considered a modern weapon.

Now let's take a list of what came to the Ukrainian army from friends and neighbors. Mortars are not even worth considering, a mortar is a melee weapon by artillery standards, and since the Second World War it has practically not changed and is used in exactly the same way.

105 mm Howitzer M101 (USA). The oldest weapon, developed back in 1919, put into service in 1940.

105-mm howitzer M119 (USA). Developed in the 70s of the last century, a light infantry support weapon.

105 mm howitzer L118 (Great Britain). British gun, adopted in 1972.

130 mm gun M-46 (USSR). It has been in service with the Soviet army since 1951, in Russia it exists only as a museum exhibit. Croatia handed over the cannons to Ukraine. The firing range of the OFS is up to 27 km, the AR is up to 35 km.

155-mm self-propelled howitzer TRF1 (France). In service since 1979. According to performance characteristics - an analogue of "Msta-B". But it can move at speeds up to 8 km / h. The firing range of the OFS is up to 24 km, the AR is up to 30 km.

155-mm towed self-propelled howitzer FH70 (Germany-Italy-UK), in service since 1979. Analogue of "Msta-B". The firing range of the OFS is up to 24 km, the AR is up to 30 km.

155 mm howitzer M114 (USA). In service since 1939. Firing range up to 14 km.

155 mm howitzer M777 (USA). The only modern gun on the list, in service since 2005. A little, but exceeds the range of other towed guns (up to 40 km with Excalibur). Given the initial number of M777s in 152 units (a certain number may have been destroyed during the hostilities), a very significant component in the Ukrainian artillery. The firing range of the OFS is 24 km, the ERFB projectile is 30 km, and the Excalibur projectile is more than 40 km.

Self-propelled artillery

This is the saddest part of the story, because here the RA is inferior to the APU in full. It is in terms of the most necessary artillery, long-range and mobile.

Here, in principle, we have the same situation as in towed artillery, that is, the Armed Forces of Ukraine are armed with both Soviet-made self-propelled guns and mortars, as well as imported ones. Figures for Soviet equipment are given at the beginning of the conflict, imported - the total number of receipts.

120-mm gun-mortar 2S34 "Hosta" / 2S32 "Nona" - are in service with both armies. RA - about 80, APU - about 40.

122-mm howitzer 2S1 "Carnation". RA - 150 pieces, APU - about 300.

152-mm howitzer 2S3 "Acacia". RA - 800, APU - 250.

152-mm howitzer 2S19 / 2S19M1 / 2S19M2 "Msta-S". RA - about 1500, APU - no more than 80.

152-mm gun 2S5 "Hyacinth-S". RA - about 100, APU - about 20.

203-mm gun 2S7 "Peony" / 2S7M "Malka". RA - about 60, APU - no more than 15 2С7, about 80 in storage.

240-mm mortar 2S4 "Tulip" in the amount of 40 pcs. only RA has it.

In general, it turns out that at the time of the beginning of the NMD, the artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was a very dull and sad sight. The same as the Russian artillery, because without exception, all models of the above list were developed and produced in the USSR. That is, until 1992. The exception, and even then, relative - 2S19M2 "Msta-S", the modernization was made in Russia.

However, with the beginning of the SVO, self-propelled guns from volunteers went to Ukraine, and the picture changed dramatically.

Here it is worth bringing the 2S19M2 Msta-S self-propelled guns as the starting point, as the latest Russian self-propelled guns.

The firing range of an HE projectile is 25 km, the firing range of an active-rocket projectile is up to 29 km, the firing range of a guided projectile is up to 25 km. Compared to 2C3 "Acacia", the growth is just fine. Compared to NATO artillery...

So, NATO provided the following self-propelled guns at the disposal of the Armed Forces of Ukraine:

152-mm self-propelled gun-howitzer vz.77 "Dana" (Czechoslovakia). Supplied by the Czech Republic 20 pcs. Developed in the 70s of the last century, produced from 1981 to 1989. The maximum firing range did not exceed 20 km.

155-mm howitzer Zuzana 2 (Slovakia). Produced since 1998. 8 pieces were delivered, delivery of 16 more is expected. Deep processing of Dana to NATO standards, a 155-mm barrel with a length of 52 calibers provides a firing range of up to 41 km.

155-mm self-propelled guns CAESAR (France). Designed in the 70s of the last century, but in production since 2002. APU received 24 self-propelled guns. The maximum firing range of an HE projectile of the ERFB type is 41 km, an active-rocket projectile is 46-49 km. The self-propelled guns can fire the M2005 V-LAP long-range projectile with a range of 54 km.

155-mm self-propelled guns AHS "Krab" (Poland). In service with the Polish army since 2010. It is a self-propelled howitzer based on the chassis of the South Korean K9 Thunder howitzer, produced in Poland under license, using the English AS-90 turret system, also produced under license. 18 self-propelled guns were delivered to Ukraine and 54 more were contracted.

155-mm self-propelled guns PzH 2000 (Germany). Produced since 1998. APU delivered 28 units, contracted about 100 units. The best self-propelled guns in the world, the firing range of the HE shell is up to 50 km, the AR shell is up to 67 km.

155-mm self-propelled guns M109 (USA). Produced from 1962 to 2003, it was the main self-propelled gun of the US Army. In service with more than 25 countries around the world. The barrel length of 39 calibers does not allow you to shoot far, but numerous electronic control systems provide very decent accuracy. The range of fire with an HE shell is up to 22 km, with an AR shell up to 30 km.

It turns out not a very pleasant conclusion: the guns of the NATO armies (with the exception of the Dana) easily shoot down Russian howitzers. Moreover, not only in terms of range, although range is sometimes very important, but also in terms of accuracy.

Artillery systems of 155-mm caliber, according to the memorandum on ballistics JBMOU (Joint Ballistics Memorandum of Understanding) with a barrel length of 52 calibers, having a more progressive barrel cutting system, provide better stabilization of the projectile in flight on the outer trajectory and, accordingly, greater range and better shooting accuracy.

ANN, various sensors on the gun itself, a system for receiving and transmitting data, a ballistic computer coupled with a navigation system for automatic aiming of the gun - this is no longer science fiction, but today. Interaction with reconnaissance satellites through the NAVSTAR system for more accurate target designation is a useful option, while in the Russian army the gunner's best friend is still the compass.

We are simply silent about the additional option as a quadrocopter-spotter.

It should also be said about the artillery ammunition of the NATO countries, which is supplied to the artillerymen of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Not only did the development of the shells themselves not stand still, the shells themselves became more accurate thanks to the use of various electronic corrective devices.

Guidance systems such as PGK, FGK, CCF, placed in the nose of the projectile with a stabilizer for correcting the flight path and a protected programmable GPS-guidance module - this is strong.

And literally two words (because the topic deserves separate consideration) about Krasnopol and its opponents. "Krasnopol" is a good projectile, with a decent range and accuracy when compared with conventional HE shells. Krasnopol's chances of hitting a single target are 1 to 10, that is, it takes 1 regular projectiles for 10 AP to reach the same target.

But in reality, Krasnopol is outdated both morally and physically. The maximum firing range of 25 km is nothing today, especially in comparison with the Excalibur, which quietly flies twice as far (data from Block 1a-2). But even 36 km of the minimum range is quite a decent difference. Ten kilometers is a lot.

The cost ... 36 thousand dollars for the Krasnopol against 100 thousand for the Excaliber is not that impressive, it’s worth remembering that the Soviet projectile has been in operation since 1986, and the American one since 2005. Ten years in technological terms is an abyss, because many rightly believe that "Krasnopol" is much inferior to "Excalibur".

The question then is where the $100 will go. If in a tank or headquarters - this is one thing, and if in the field - another.

To more or less sum up, let's look at the number of delivered guns for the Armed Forces of Ukraine from among those that are better than Msta-S and Msta-B.

Of the towed guns, this is exclusively the 155-mm American howitzer M777, delivered in the amount of 152 units. Yes, a certain number of these guns were destroyed, but it is difficult to say how many, as it is not entirely clear yet.
Self-propelled guns:
ShKH Zuzana 2 - 8 pcs. (and 16 more on order).
"CAESAR" - 24 pcs.
AHS Krab - 18 (and 54 planned).
PzH 2000 - 28 pcs.

That is, the Armed Forces of Ukraine theoretically have more than a hundred towed M777 guns and more than 50 (78) self-propelled guns, which are better than the Msta-S.

Много это или мало?

Of course, if you look at the fact that the Russian army, in theory, has more than a thousand self-propelled guns "Msta-S" - this is generally a penny.

If you look from the side of the fact that the Armed Forces of Ukraine have more than 150 barrels capable of firing Russian guns while outside the affected area, the situation takes on a completely different color. Counter-battery combat today is a very topical issue, and the way it is posed by the Armed Forces of Ukraine makes it a very unpleasant affair for Russian gunners.

More long-range NATO howitzers, coupled with reconnaissance drones and satellites in low orbit, transmitting data almost to battery commanders, are capable of doing the most unpleasant thing - completely leveling the superiority of Russian artillery in terms of numbers.

Indeed, as many barrels as you like can be concentrated on a separate section of the front, but the guns of the Armed Forces of Ukraine will begin to work on them because of the zone of destruction by artillery. Yes, it is possible to use MLRS, but this is a double-edged sword, since for each volley of Tornadoes and Hurricanes, the accuracy of which, we admit, is not at the highest level, a response volley of Hymars can fly in, the accuracy of which is already known and estimated by dignity.

But "Hymars" are pinpoint injections, but a hundred barrels operating in the KBS mode for target designation from satellites and UAVs may well bring significant problems to Russian gunners. And by the way, they do.

And we have nothing to answer. Although shooting at a distance of 30+ kilometers will not be so accurate, but alas, Msta-S cannot oppose anything to NATO guns.

Today it’s too late to say why it happened, although it’s worth saying that work on the 2S33 product was stopped in favor of the 2S35 Coalition-SV, which remained in the same place as the Armata, Kurganets ... And the 2S35 itself is still not ready for serial production. As a result, we fight with what we have at our disposal, not even dreaming of being on the same level with NATO.

At least 12 manufactured self-propelled guns "Coalition-SV", which has been hoarded since 2002 for more than 20 years, cannot have absolutely no effect on the current situation.

So far, the Armed Forces of Ukraine do not have as many barrels of modern artillery as they would like, but work in this direction is underway and modern howitzers will still arrive. And how then our gunners will have to work is very difficult to say.

They, the gunners, are absolutely not to blame for the fact that peace and quiet reigned in the quiet and warm offices of the Russian Ministry of Defense for more than 30 years. And no one was bothered by the fact that the artillery of the AR is 100% made up of barrels of Soviet design and production.

Yes, of course, the development of the "Coalition" greatly helped to strengthen the defense capability of the Russian army. All specialized media paid tribute to this self-propelled guns, describing how good it is and why the “German” PzH 2000 is worse than 2С35.

But the PzH 2000 was made for four hundred, but the 2S35... But what can I say, there are more German self-propelled guns in service with Ukraine than the Russian army has 2S35.

There is something to think about while our gunners, without exaggeration, heroically carry out their tasks at the front.

Comments

[voice of reason]

Initially, at first, the enemy’s CBO art was good. The experience of combat use and coordination was felt. They well and quickly received coordinates from the UAV, quickly aimed. What can we say, they caught vehicles for an air blast with shrapnel. Our artels only wondered how it was possible. how quickly the coordinates are transmitted, the pointing occurs and the shot is fired. And then the same thing as here in the article went. Just when the first "axes" and "Caesars" arrived. Apparently they have changed the priorities of the value of calculations and types of weapons there. And the same thing happened as the author in the article. Everything is so the author falls into such a "charm of performance characteristics." This happens when caliber and range begin to be considered a decisive factor. But on the LBS, all the same, damned mortars often play the main violin. And due to the fact that they are "organizationally" closer to the defending units and due to the unpleasantness of the trajectory of the fall of their mines (all the same, from artillery you can almost instantly find a "shell shadow" and the mine will fall almost vertically and unpredictably). And the difference in caliber is often leveled by the fact that the trench from artillery and from a package of hailstones will perfectly protect, but if a mine falls into it, then everything is a grave. On the other hand, an ax hitting a one-story house of a local construction collapses it or destroys everyone inside, and mine 82 is held by the roof, scattering at the same time. True, the same 120 will destroy the house in the same way. From practice, all these high-precision 150s are dangerous if the equipment is crowded in an open area or the headquarters is lit up - yes, it can fly there accurately and unpleasantly. On the front line, such shelling has little effect. There are many spare positions and false ones, the infantry quickly moves out of the shelling, etc. For conditionally rear units and field warehouses, the distribution of ammo is dangerous. For unarmored vehicles too. But in fact, I would like even smaller caliber mortars in the advanced units. To solve local problems of support independently by the unit. Something like 10 or 8 German WWII times. Now ATGMs perform this function in the presence of a good operator ... Or at least the presence of a large number of charges for ATGMs with an HE charge. Practice has shown that ATGMs are not only an effective means of combating armored vehicles, but also a good means of suppressing stationary defenses and, accordingly, supporting their defenses when enemy assault groups attack ...

[saigon]

Yes, there is little about mortars in the article, and in general, little is said during the NWO.
But having felt the mortar in your own skin, understanding what kind of weapon this weapon comes quickly.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

There are questions about mortars right away, starting with the smallest 82-mm caliber. Ever since the Great Patriotic War, they complained about the weak fragmentation action and the weak impact on field fortifications. Since then, many things have been invented to solve problems.
For a long time there have been solutions to increase the fragmentation action of mines.
In particular, the US has developed a multi-mode fuse M734 with detonation above the ground for 60, 81 and 120 mm min.
And to destroy fortifications and equipment since the 2nd World War, cumulative ammunition has been developed. But 82-mm cumulative fragmentation mines did not appear in our country.
The 82-mm mortar itself nevertheless underwent modernization in the form of 2B24 and received an increased range, and a slightly more powerful mine, but that's all. And the automatic "Vasilek" remained low-mobile, there were not even attempts to install it on a more convenient trolley or car chassis. And the installation on tracked MTLBs remained in single copies.

[SKVichyakow]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

. And the automatic "Vasilek" remained low-mobile, there were not even attempts to install it on a more convenient trolley or car chassis. And the installation on tracked MTLBs remained in single copies.

SIMPLY no one did anything in the "upper food chain", perhaps they did not even think about it. They just ate, bought or built villas.

[AAK]

During the Second World War, the development of a new artillery system / deep modernization of the existing one, with a much weaker level of design technology and production capabilities, took from several months to a year. Now this is quite possible, the only question is either the presence of a leading will and strict control, or the complete absence of fresh brains in the design of this branch of military equipment. If the "Coalition", about which they talk about the range of HE up to 40-50 km, and the AR in general about the fantastic 70-80 km, have been tormented for 20 years (self-propelled guns are still not a fighter ...), then either stupidity, or you need to chop heads. ..

[Aerodrome]

it’s kind of gloomy ... it’s better to watch the Security Council on REN TV, everything is rosy there.

[Stirbjorn]

Quote: Aerodrome

it’s kind of gloomy ... it’s better to watch the Security Council on REN TV, everything is rosy there.

Pozitivchik, this is to Staver. Here, an excerpt from a neighboring article, everything is in its best form!

Real victories at the front are not to be expected. The prepared defense of the Russian army, the saturation of the front with military equipment and weapons, as well as the effective work of our drones and the Aerospace Forces, practically stopped the ability of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to attack. The APU has big problems with logistics. It is impossible to repeat the Kharkov operation today.

[Pantsuy]

Quote: Aerodrome

it’s kind of gloomy ... it’s better to watch the Security Council on REN TV, everything is rosy there.

You can also revise the "Strike Force" or "Military Acceptance" for the Star. There, in general, we are ahead of the rest.

[Rome]

If you watch only football, think only about girls, then life is generally beautiful sometimes it’s real, it’s useful to disconnect from everything
The article, of course, thickens the colors, but if you still add MLRS, then the RA (Russian army, since it’s a more sonorous abbreviation, instead of AR ), then the missile systems for KBS we have the word "have" is incredibly wrong, "created" is Tornado-S with missiles corrected using GLONASS but here in the troops they are, to put it mildly, not enough
Our Arta is quite effective, this is confirmed by both sides in their own, but it can be much better!
The main problem, as I understand it, is the lack of systems for opening the positions of enemy self-propelled guns firing from a distance of 30+ km, Penicillin hears Artu like at 18km, the Zoo is written useless, Aistenok against mortars, as a result, we have nothing to detect the positions of long-range artillery of the enemy! which is surprising, given the rather advanced air defense systems, we could not create a modern artillery reconnaissance radar! Well, the scourge of all RA is communication and control, as I understand it, further reduces the effectiveness of the CBS.
The Krasnopol projectile, also like a Kalashnikov assault rifle, is not an obsolete weapon! Excalibur will not hit a moving tank, but Krasnopol can, it has a minus in the form of external illumination, but there are pluses in the ability to hit even moving vehicles.
The main problems are not in the length of the barrel and the firing range (our Arta reaches the main targets without problems) and not in the absence of systems capable of covering targets at long range (missiles have been created, but there are few of them in the troops, as I understand it), but in the absence of the ability to detect long-range Artoo!

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

To hit moving tanks, Ukrainians have SMARts and BONUS - which do not need laser illumination. And Krasnopol, alas, is still outdated. The Americans removed their Copperhead (an analogue of Krasnopol, more precisely, that analogue of Copperhead) from service in the 90s, although it seemed to perform well in the First Iraqi. A set of Excalibur for stationary targets and SMART/BONUS for armored vehicles is more effective.

[mmaxx]

Still, chaoacteristics, there are characteristics. The new 155 mm is fundamentally better than our old 152. And the inertia of our MO in this matter is amazing. Obviously, they were not going to fight with anyone.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: mmaxx

The new 155 mm is fundamentally better than our old 152

Without a correction module and an extended 52 klb barrel? Let me not believe.

[Civil]

The author started and did not finish about the number of M-109 Palladin, the enemy claims the presence of 80 pieces and the promised 18 pieces.

[Barmaglot_07]

Quote: Civil

The author started and did not finish about the number of M-109 Palladin, the enemy claims the presence of 80 pieces and the promised 18 pieces.

Paladin is a modification of the M109A6 and M109A7, there are none yet, those M109 that the Armed Forces of Ukraine have are old modifications, for example M109A3GN from Norway. Paladins promised to deliver in the next package, which was announced the other day.

[Civil]

Quote from: Barmaglot_07

Quote: Civil

The author started and did not finish about the number of M-109 Palladin, the enemy claims the presence of 80 pieces and the promised 18 pieces.

Paladin is a modification of the M109A6 and M109A7, there are none yet, those M109 that the Armed Forces of Ukraine have are old modifications, for example M109A3GN from Norway. Paladins promised to deliver in the next package, which was announced the other day.

Thanks for the clarification, so the enemy has 80 old modifications of the M-109

[IVZ]

The new 155mm is fundamentally better than our old 152.

It's not about the caliber. In millimeters, there seems to be no difference. The point is the design of ammunition. In my memory, somewhere in the 80s, when the "damned imperialists" made a qualitative breakthrough in the development of ammunition and barrel artillery in general, towards increasing the range and accuracy of shooting, we allegedly dominated the point of view that barrel artillery was cheap, according to compared with rocket technology, a component of the weapons system for delivering not so much accurate as massive strikes. And of course, the quality of bulk ammunition has never been a strong point of our defense industry, starting with rifle cartridges. Apparently, the experience of the war taught me to pay more attention to the possibilities of mass production.

[User_neydobniu]

In my memory somewhere in the 80s

Again, the damned communists planted a mine on the liberals, wow, they are bad

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: IVZ

The point is the design of ammunition.

Explain what is brought into the projectile? In addition to the correction module that is screwed in place of a conventional fuse ...

[IVZ]

Explain what is brought into the projectile? In addition to the correction module that is screwed in place of a conventional fuse ...

. Modular propellant charges providing the ballistics of a barrel with a length of 39 calibers the same as our 50+., shells with improved aerodynamics, with bottom recesses, with gas generators, with an increased filling factor - all this appeared in the west then in the 80s. and not only appeared, but was actively introduced into the troops.

[Negro]

Quote: IVZ

the same as our 50+.,

47klb for both Msta and Hyacinth.

[IVZ]

47klb for both Msta and Hyacinth

Hyacinth has 8197mm, 54 caliber with D.T. without d.t. -7562mm - 49,7 calibers. At Msta? It should be less, but Shirokorad in the Encyclopedia and Wiki and in the article on VO call the number 53 caliber. In any case, I apologize for the inaccuracy.

[Negro]

Quote: IVZ

In any case, I apologize for the inaccuracy

As far as I can understand, in such cases, the length of the rifled part of the barrel, and not the entire barrel, is meant. However, this is not so important.

[IVZ]

in such cases, we mean the length of the rifled part of the barrel, and not the entire barrel

No. the length of the rifled part of the barrel is a separate parameter. But you are right about the importance.

[Negro]

Quote: IVZ

No. the length of the rifled part of the barrel - a separate parameter

OK, maybe I messed something up

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: IVZ

. Modular propellant charges providing the ballistics of a 39 caliber barrel the same as our 50+., shells with improved aerodynamics, with bottom recesses, with gas generators, with an increased filling factor - all this appeared in the west then in the 80s

Not 50+ but 50-, besides, the range of the Msta-2S19M (2S33) is 40 km with a gas generator.
Not in the 80s, but in the 90s.
And how does it FUNCTIONALLY improve 155 mm shells, except for correction modules?

[Foul skeptic]

And how does it FUNCTIONALLY improve 155 mm shells, except for correction modules?

The fact that it takes the guns out of the enemy artillery strike zone. Isn't it obvious?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

The fact that it takes the guns out of the enemy artillery strike zone. Isn't it obvious?

Takes away the range of fire, and this is achieved by a longer barrel - 52 versus 47.
Reduces firing time, and this is achieved by GPS modules.

[Foul skeptic]

Takes away the range of fire, and this is achieved by a longer barrel - 52 versus 47.
Reduces firing time, and this is achieved by GPS modules.

I didn't understand what you were trying to answer me with. It is not even clear whether this is an objection to my words or not.

[Vladimir_2U]

The fact that range and accuracy was achieved thanks to barrels and GPS modules, and not to some "fundamental superiority of shells"

[Foul skeptic]

The fact that the length of the barrel affects the range should negate the fact that this is not the only method used to increase the range and that the increase in range is also achieved due to the design of the projectiles?

[Vladimir_2U]

And what will cancel the fact that the range does not make much sense without a fundamental increase in accuracy?
And are more energy-intensive gunpowder possible without a strong barrel? Just the shape of the projectile in our time will not give a fundamental advantage.

And there are shells with gas generators in service with Msta. It’s a pity that they didn’t re-equip it with a longer barrel in favor of the Coalition, they threw resources at it. Because it immediately increased the range by 10 km.

[Foul skeptic]

And what will cancel the fact that the range does not make much sense without a fundamental increase in accuracy?

Have you decided in an argument for the sake of an argument? Then it's not for me. If you look at the course of the correspondence, you will understand that the answer to the initial question "what improves from ... (and further down the list of EPI)" has been given to you.

Just the shape of the projectile in our time will not give a fundamental advantage.

And it was not about "just the form", but about the design. This time.
And fundamentally in this case, only one thing - who will get who. On the MSM Group website (if I'm not confused) there is a visual picture with the trajectories of different projectiles from the same barrel. A difference of 30% due to the design is a lot. This is two.
PS Base bleed boat tale (BB-BT) has long been a base for NATO artillery. When our ZOF64 will become our base (which is also base bleed, and which is the only one) I don’t even want to guess.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Nefarious skeptic

If you look at the course of the correspondence, you will understand that the answer to the initial question "what improves from ... (and further down the list of EPI)" has been given to you.

No, not given

Quote: IVZ

Modular propellant charges providing the same ballistics of the 39 caliber barrel as our 50+., shells with improved aerodynamics, with bottom recesses, with gas generators,

Throwing charges are more related to the barrel, Msta also has shells with gas generators, the barrel is not 50 plus but 50 minus, the remaining two parameters do not give a fundamental advantage.

Quote: mmaxx

The new 155mm is fundamentally better than our old 152.

[Foul skeptic]

No, not given

The diagnosis became clear - an argument for the sake of an argument, contrary to common sense. I don't think it would be justified on my part to waste any more time.
PS

the remaining two parameters do not provide a fundamental advantage.

[Negro]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

besides, the range of the Msta-2S19M (2S33)

What is this miracle? How many of these are there in parts?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

40 km with gas generator.

The first time I've heard. What kind of projectile?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

how does it PRINCIPALLY improve 155 mm shells, except for correction modules?

The M795E1 flies from the relatively short M109 barrel or axes at the same distance as the ZOF59 Hyacinth. Yes, and AR ZOF30 is not much further. And a 52klb barrel with such shells can only be thrown by Malka. And go find her.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Negro

What is this miracle? How many of these are there in parts?

For example, in 2008-2011. the army received approx. 200 cars 2S19M1, made by repair and modernization of old equipment. In 2017, their deliveries resumed and are still ongoing. In total, almost 300 self-propelled guns from combat units were updated for the current project.

Quote: Negro

The first time I've heard. What kind of projectile?

high-explosive fragmentation projectiles 3OF61 with a bottom blowing gas generator
But, I was mistaken, self-propelled guns 40 mm and SM 155 mm had a range of 152 km, but canceled in favor of the Coalition.

[Negro]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

But, I was mistaken, self-propelled guns 40 mm and SM 155 mm had a range of 152 km, but canceled in favor of the Coalition.

Yes. 2S33 is some kind of another fantasm of the Zvezda channel. 40 km is not a real range at the training ground, but reasoning on the topic "how will we shoot with their escalibur if they give it to us." Naturally, the industry did not and could not give any serial 155mm shells with such characteristics - for an exhibition sample.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Negro

Naturally, the industry did not and could not give any serial 155mm shells with such characteristics - for an exhibition sample.

Maybe they didn’t make 155 mm Krasnopol, huh?

Quote: Negro

Yes. 2S33 is some kind of another fantasm of the Zvezda channel. 40 km is not a real range at the training ground, but reasoning on the topic "how will we shoot with their escalibur if they give it to us."

And, dada, it's like your exact knowledge about the lack of missiles in warehouses. You know exactly what is and what is not. And the fact that a serial projectile with a bottom generator, which you first learned about here, will fly further from a longer barrel on a real prototype, is also a fantasy?

[Negro]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Maybe 155 mm Krasnopol did not

But what, 155mm Krasnopol flew 10 kilometers further than 152mm?

Quote: Vladimir_2U

which you first learned about here, will it fly further from a longer barrel on a real prototype, is it also a fantasy?

This is about ZOF30 with ZOF61 I first learned? Oh well.

You see. Korean Norwegian tender fired 43,6 kilometers. How long did Msta shoot with witnesses not from the Zvezda channel?

[Eule]

ERFB in the text are indicated by the range without the bottom gas generator. On the other hand, the question is for the Russian industry, which in the 30 years of the existence of this projectile has not repeated it. Now the drawing is even on the Internet, although it is clear that 30 years ago it had to be somehow obtained in more complex ways.
I understand that guidance systems, UAVs and processors are complex. But the casting and turning of a projectile - is it really beyond the power of industry?
Moreover, he has one belt, that is, it is easier to press in. Rename to PKUD - "full caliber extended range" and produce.

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Explain what is brought into the projectile?

The radius of the ogival part and its length have been increased, instead of two leading belts, one behind, and three "wings" in front for centering in the trunk. Narrowing the back like a 5.45 bullet, or instead of narrowing, a bottom gas generator that "fills the vacuum" behind the projectile as it pushes air with it. That is, there is no turbulence and no area of ​​low pressure behind the projectile.
Basically, here's the picture:

Dimensions in calibers.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: eule

On the other hand, the question is for the Russian industry, which in the 30 years of the existence of this projectile has not repeated it.

From 1991 to 2005 - 15 years, you can safely delete from the life of the country ...

Quote: eule

Basically, here's the picture:

Thanks, informative!

[alexoff]

New shells for artillery were not made, since there were a lot of old Soviet types in the warehouses, for which there were ready-made tables and everything was calculated. By the way, this is almost a direct speech of one Alexei R., who was offered, if not a new form of shells, but only more powerful gunpowder and explosives to be put there.

[Dimax-nemo]

Actually, he is. Such a projectile. Why it has a shorter range than NATO, with similar firing ranges of "ordinary" shells, is an interesting question.

[parma]

Quote: voice of reason

Initially, at first, the enemy’s CBO art was good. The experience of combat use and coordination was felt. They well and quickly received coordinates from the UAV, quickly aimed. What can we say, they caught vehicles for an air blast with shrapnel. Our artels only wondered how it was possible. how quickly the coordinates are transmitted, the pointing occurs and the shot is fired. And then the same thing as here in the article went. Just when the first "axes" and "Caesars" arrived. Apparently they have changed the priorities of the value of calculations and types of weapons there. And the same thing happened as the author in the article. Everything is so the author falls into such a "charm of performance characteristics." This happens when caliber and range begin to be considered a decisive factor. But on the LBS, all the same, damned mortars often play the main violin. And due to the fact that they are "organizationally" closer to the defending units and due to the unpleasantness of the trajectory of the fall of their mines (all the same, from artillery you can almost instantly find a "shell shadow" and the mine will fall almost vertically and unpredictably). And the difference in caliber is often leveled by the fact that the trench from artillery and from a package of hailstones will perfectly protect, but if a mine falls into it, then everything is a grave. On the other hand, an ax hitting a one-story house of a local construction collapses it or destroys everyone inside, and mine 82 is held by the roof, scattering at the same time. True, the same 120 will destroy the house in the same way. From practice, all these high-precision 150s are dangerous if the equipment is crowded in an open area or the headquarters is lit up - yes, it can fly there accurately and unpleasantly. On the front line, such shelling has little effect. There are many spare positions and false ones, the infantry quickly moves out of the shelling, etc. For conditionally rear units and field warehouses, the distribution of ammo is dangerous. For unarmored vehicles too. But in fact, I would like even smaller caliber mortars in the advanced units. To solve local problems of support independently by the unit. Something like 10 or 8 German WWII times. Now ATGMs perform this function in the presence of a good operator ... Or at least the presence of a large number of charges for ATGMs with an HE charge. Practice has shown that ATGMs are not only an effective means of combating armored vehicles, but also a good means of suppressing stationary defenses and, accordingly, supporting their defenses when enemy assault groups attack ...

A familiar mobilized mortar gunner (he served as a signalman on an urgent basis, but this is another sore point) was recently wounded on the very first day of his presence in the database zone ... they opened fire from 120 mortars, after sighting and at the moment of waiting for the adjustment, a response had already arrived ...

[insafufa]

Back in 2001 when specialists from the Main Artillery Directorate and the Tula Design Bureau of Instrument Engineering arrived at the location, the question was raised about equipping the Metis ATGM with high-explosive fragmentation warheads; as a result, they received Thermobaric warheads and high-explosive fragmentation carts are still there. The same goes for cornet and bassoon. The generals laughed at our proposal in general, they said it was useless to hit the infantry from the ptrura, not the level of them to jam the infantry in the field. Hold a 40mm undershot to RPG 7 and rejoice. We dragged an RPG 16 to them and said that we needed shots of a larger caliber of 57 mm and with an engine that would increase their firing range, we suggested making warheads similar to the NURS S-5 and where this shot is not, hit from 40mm at 500m with a pair you need to hit at 1500m and an RPG 16 provided the possibility of firing at a given distance. In the Armed Forces of Ukraine, instead of PG 7 VL, a mine of 82 mm caliber is also screwed from without origin. So we’re fighting, plus of course it’s RShG and TBG that finally appeared, but the troops in Chechnya asked for a rocket-propelled grenade with high-explosive fragmentation warheads, but received thermobaric ones that are useless in the field against a dispersed enemy, but good in urban battles. And so we turned out to be biased towards fighting tanks and urban combat thanks to the failed assault of the formidable under the Christmas tree. The enemy has Karl Gustov with an arsenal of shells and shrapnel shots, and unas.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The capabilities of the RPG-16 are slightly exaggerated by you. The grenade launcher really had better accuracy and range, but at 800 meters, and not at 1500, for sure.
And they promised a new light missile "Bulat" in addition to the "Kornet" both for equipment and in a wearable version, they promised 4 years ago. It remains only to wait.

[insafufa]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

The capabilities of the RPG-16 are slightly exaggerated by you.

Well, you're right, I lied a little like a fisherman
Well, in the mountains, at 1300, I myself saw it worked out according to the calculation of a machine gun hiding behind stones from a canopy. Well, it's easier than SPG-9

[Askold65]

Quote: insafufa

Hold a 40mm undershot to RPG 7 and rejoice.

At first I didn’t understand this either, but then it turned out that this was due to the restrictions (sort of like) of the Geneva Convention, according to which more than 400 grams of explosives in TNT equivalent cannot be used in the ammunition of portable weapons.

[insafufa]

Quote: Askold65

At first I didn’t understand this either, but then it turned out that this was due to the restrictions (sort of like) of the Geneva Convention, according to which more than 400 grams of explosives in TNT equivalent cannot be used in the ammunition of portable weapons.

Well, I don’t know about 1,5 kg of explosives in TBG and the bastard weighs much more than a PG 7 VL shot and a shot range of only 200m, while the grenade launcher brother swears at everyone who did this miracle, he says it would be two times lighter and a range of two more than the price for him would be in combat.

SO for reflection The S-5M and S-5M1 missiles are designed to combat enemy manpower and weakly protected targets (vehicles), artillery and missile positions, aircraft at airfields, etc. fragments weighing 75-0,5 g. The length of the S-1M missile is 5 mm.

Starting weight 3,86 kg High-explosive fragmentation warhead weighing 1,08 kg contains 285 g of explosive.

So we don’t reach the Zhinev convention

[Vladimir_2U]

The lack of range of our guns, in theory, should be compensated by the work of the Smerch MLRS, and their not very accurate, in turn, in one gulp. But here, as usual, intelligence and communications should be combined, and with them "that's all" ...

[mmaxx]

Look at this Tornado at least in the picture! It is clear to the very last civilian that there cannot be many of them. And with their accuracy at their range, with the number of missiles that you have, you won’t get anywhere. It's not even close to Highmars.

[Vladimir_2U]

I'm not the latest and it's clear to me that it's normal for a counter-battery. And as for accuracy, it was originally increased (an autopilot for the MLRS rocket!), And with the introduction of correction by satellites, it didn’t at all. So don't. And Hymars without an advantage in intelligence and without ATACMS is not bad, nothing more.

[Negro]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

I'm not the latest and I understand that it's normal for a counter battery

And how do you imagine the counter-battery fight with Tornadoes with live Hymars?

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Negro

And how do you imagine the counter-battery fight with Tornadoes with live Hymars?

As always, the worst case is when shells are detected in the air by artillery radar / sound metering, a good one is when enemy artillery is covered immediately after stopping for aiming, an excellent case is when artillery is destroyed before reaching its line.
Hymars without reconnaissance is as blind as everything else, and the range is less than Tornado.

[Negro]

That is, you propose to constantly keep the division of Tornadoes, which are very noticeable, 50 kilometers from the LBS? So that they, with their range of 70 km, could work on request? 120 km RS still go find it.

And this is in a situation where the enemy has an advantage in space intelligence, and the population, frankly, is not always on the side of the Russian Federation? Given that the enemy has quite a lot of high-precision with a range of 90 km?

Great plan.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Negro

That is, you propose to constantly keep the division of Tornadoes, which are very noticeable, 50 kilometers from the LBS? So that they, with their range of 70 km, could work on request? 120 km RS still go find it.

I AM? Do I offer you something? I suggest to a person who does not understand what MLRS is, to a person who knows "everything" about the warehouses of the RAV RF Armed Forces, to a person who is not aware of satellite flight schedules, about means of disguise from satellite reconnaissance and who imagines that the population is able to knock on the exact coordinates of the MLRS vehicle? What for?
Finally, why offer something to a person who clearly himself offers to lay down the handles of the artillery of the SV Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and not wage any kind of fight. It is so?
You are clearly proposing to abandon the counter-battery fight altogether ... The Hymarses and the holy companions ...

[Negro]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

Finally, why offer something to a person who clearly himself offers to lay down the handles of the artillery of the SV Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and not wage any kind of fight. It is so?

Thank God I have nothing to offer in these cases. But I expected that the machines would be used as intended - against area reconnaissance targets. I'm not hinting at anything, but from Stepan Bandera Avenue in Kyiv to the nearest Belarusian forest is just a little less than 90 km.

For better or worse, they don't apply at all. Well, okay, you don't have to.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Negro

Thank God I have nothing to offer in these matters.

So I don’t need to ascribe stupid proposals that were not invented by me.

[Alexey Lantukh]

Satellite is satellite, but there is still weather. In particular, from January 10 to 17, mostly cloudy weather and optical satellite reconnaissance is impossible, and radar reconnaissance satellites have worse characteristics and, like any locator, it can be jammed.

[alexoff]

In this case, I would suggest hanging inflatable or plywood replicas of a tornado on ordinary gas trucks and placing them under each bush. And disguise real tornadoes as such gas trucks with inflatable structures. I heard that sometime 80 years ago, somewhere in Africa, one cunning fox was so fooled

[insafufa]

Quote: mmaxx

Look at this Tornado at least in the picture! It is clear to the very last civilian that there cannot be many of them.

I didn’t see them in the picture, but I watched them live and they have very good accuracy. They have a gyroscopic directional stability system, a gas-dynamic impulse correction system. Shells at a distance of 70 km in 2001 were placed in a circle with a football field 12 shells. You do not confuse it with a hurricane, which is essentially an increased caliber Grad with blunt shells. Dull shells are also available for a tornado, but they have a cassette filling and they are designed to sow hectares with shells the size of VOG from ags 17 with a chemical self-liquidator all day long will nightmare the enemy, depending

[Foul skeptic]

Blunt shells are also available for a tornado, but they have a cassette filling

That shells with index K, that shells with index F have BSU and EVA. So there is no difference in the "brains" here.

I didn’t see them in the picture, but I watched them live and they have very good accuracy gyroscopic directional stability system, gas-dynamic impulse correction system shells at a distance of 70 km in 2001

What you have described is not really meant to increase "accuracy". BSU, consisting of IUP, BEIA and CD, integrates the calculated pseudo-velocity and pseudo-path to determine the correction in time for the EED, from which the command to open the warhead or release a parachute. That is, the control system only controls the planned "dispersion" of submunitions or the moment of separation of the HE part on the parachute, and not the trajectory of the shells themselves, although the side effect, in fact, is less dispersion in range (not along the front) due to the creation of a control moment on the INITIAL section of the trajectory, which eliminates oscillations of the RS axis after leaving the guide.
PS The main RS for Tornado are cassette (K), with the index F - a rarity.

[insafufa]

If compared with the Hurricane, which at 35 km has a similar accuracy, then at 70 km it is just a class. HE shells are not so rare in the presence of the positions were one to three cluster.

[mmaxx]

Yes, what are you? The most important thing is unification! With guns of the 30s.
How many such opinions were there? Our army logistics cannot deliver what is needed and where it is needed. The civil one can (even the Russian Post began to work almost perfectly), but the army - well, no way.
They held on to unification, as if they were blind to the wall, so they remained blind.

[Negro]

Quote: mmaxx

They held on to unification, as if they were blind to the wall, so they remained blind.

This is certainly funny, but there is no unification, even in 152 caliber. You cannot fire Hyacinth projectiles from Acacia and vice versa.

[stankow]

And the sleeves are different. And what's bad about it? Hyacinth makes the most of the 152 caliber. What is bad here, that for the hull gun they were not too lazy to make their own power supply?

[Andy_nsk]

The author is absolutely right when speaking about the Krasnopol projectile as obsolete, but he did not indicate the main drawback of this projectile: guidance along the laser beam. Since there is no one to highlight targets in the rear, the applicability of this projectile is extremely limited.
In NATO countries, the bulk of warheads, both shells and bombs and missiles, are GPS-guided, which do not require illumination and are much more effective, especially against stationary targets.

[stankow]

Not "especially", but "only" for stationary purposes. Huge disadvantage. And not only for those who are moving, but for those who have just been discovered and appear, of which the majority are on the battlefield.

[Negro]

Quote: stankow

Huge disadvantage.

)))
Lack of what?

Quote: stankow

not only by moving, but by newly discovered and emerging

Working on both issues. Do you want too much from a mounted fire?

[stankow]

Disadvantage regarding laser guidance. And with canopy fire, the entire WTO works.

[Negro]

Quote: stankow

Disadvantage regarding laser guidance.

Is this why you need to send special forces behind the LBS?

Instantly determining the coordinates of detected targets and dropping them into a common information circuit with artillery and aviation is a task that has been worked on for 40 years, that’s right.

[stankow]

No, you are fundamentally mistaken. Laser illumination is carried out from artillery OPs at the location of friendly troops at a distance of 1-2 km from the LBS. Targets at a depth of 2-4 km in enemy ranks are illuminated. The special forces have nothing to do with it; they do not have people trained to work with guidance devices. Illumination from a drone is a rare occurrence. You need a fairly large and expensive drone with a stabilized platform. Accurate to fractions of a thousand. Where does he come from in the division!?

Fire control systems, yes, have been implemented for more than 40 years. There are good reasons why they can't shift the control completely manually. This is a separate conversation.

[Victor Leningradets]

Thank you, Roman, for a fairly complete overview of the artillery of the opposing sides.
I’ll make a reservation right away: in artillery - an amateur.
I think mmax is right in cursing our notorious unification with obviously obsolete models, but those who assess the championship shooting of NATO 155-mm howitzers as a factor that does not affect the course of hostilities on the line of contact are also right.
The article mentions the 203-mm gun 2S7 "Peony" / 2S7M "Malka". It would make sense to attend to the manufacture of an analogue of "Krasnopol" for this caliber. Moreover, an active-rocket projectile with a warhead corresponding to "Excalibur" will fly 80 - 100 km. Yes, it will require significant costs, it may involve attracting foreign aid, but the game is worth the candle. With a reasonable approach, such a projectile would make it possible to equip promising destroyers with a 203-mm system, which would dramatically increase their ability to support landing forces and destroy secondary naval targets.

[Adrey]

Quote: Victor Leningradets

With a reasonable approach, such a projectile would make it possible to equip promising destroyers with a 203-mm system, which would dramatically increase their ability to support landing forces and destroy secondary naval targets.

Why destroyers! Let's immediately SRT (heavy cruisers), like their size. And there it’s not far from battleship calibers. Give us a controlled mine in 406-mm caliber!

[Negro]

Quote: Adrey

Why destroyers! Let's immediately SRT (heavy cruisers), like their size.

The Americans tried with a destroyer in the 70s. USS Hull (DD-945). Played and quit.

[Adrey]

Apparently nostalgic for the Baltimores .
As they settled down with the 203-mm self-propelled guns. Although they have decent storage.

[Negro]

Quote: Adrey

Nostalgic for the Baltimores

They still had Baltimores back then. More precisely Newport News like Des Moines.

[Adrey]

Quote: Negro

They still had Baltimores back then. More precisely Newport News like Des Moines.

Yes, you are of course right. Type "Des Moines" (improved "Baltimore") 3 units. The last one, the Newport News, was retired in 1975.

[stankow]

We played around and quit. But the money for R&D was not returned

[IL-18]

Quote: Victor Leningradets

equip promising destroyers with the 203-mm system

the Germans in World War II with 150mm guns on destroyers ended up. And to support the landing, then it’s better to glue some kind of MLRS: a movable and, most likely, a swinging platform. But for the destroyers from me +, they will suddenly appear.

[Negro]

Quote: IL-18

Germans in World War II with 150mm guns on destroyers ended up

The current EM is not inferior in size to a small Exeter-type SRT. True, destroyers are not built in Russia, only frigates.

[Victor Leningradets]

I myself would not have thought of this before.
The universal 127-mm single-turret Mk 45, developed by the American company FMC, is designed to destroy surface, ground and air targets. However, the 127-mm caliber turned out to be small for firing at coastal targets and for using nuclear weapons. To sink even a small merchant ship with a displacement of about 10 tons, according to experts, at least two dozen hits of 000-mm high-explosive shells were required. the gun mount was fire support for amphibious operations.It was developed at the request of the US Marine Corps, it was a fully automated weapon.The tactical and technical assignment for the development of the mount was issued in 127 by the command of amphibious operations.Development of the system began in 8. The mount was successfully tested on aboard the destroyer Hull of the Forrest Sherman class in 55. Mark 71 was supposed to be installed on destroyers of the Spruence class, advanced missile cruisers of the CSGN type, as well as on the Long Beach missile cruiser after it was re-equipped with the Aegis multifunctional combat system .
The installation could provide a rate of 12 rds / min and fire at this rate for 6 minutes. In total, 75 shots of six different types were ready to fire. Shooting was carried out with separate-sleeve loading shots.
The program was closed in 1978 due to budgetary constraints.
In the mid-1970s, the design of the 203-mm Pion-M ship installation began on the basis of the oscillating part of the 203-mm gun 2A44 self-propelled guns Pion. It was the Soviet response to the Mk 71. The amount of ammunition ready for firing was the same for both systems - 75 rounds of separate-sleeve loading. However, in terms of rate of fire, the Pion outperformed the Mk 71. The Pion-M fire control system was a modification of the Lev system for the AK-130. Compared to the 130 mm caliber, 203 mm active-reactive, cluster and guided projectiles had incomparably greater capabilities. For example, the size of the funnel of a high-explosive projectile from the AK-130 was 1,6 m, while that of the Pion-M was 3,2 m. The Pion-M active-rocket projectile had a range of 50 km.
In 1976-1979, several reasoned "justifications" for the advantages of the 203 mm gun were sent to the leadership of the Navy. Nevertheless, "Pion-M" did not enter service.

[stankow]

Why feel sorry for the trim then;) You give the anti-aircraft KM-52, 152 mm-ku in 60 calibers in the marine version. On land, 46 tons, in the sea with a tower and food and BC easily under 200 tons. But 17 shots per minute, wow, 1030 m / s initial, this is 33 km in range

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

It is clear that the language without bones, you can speak and write anything. However, a few years ago, the installation of 152-mm "Coalition" on ships was considered, it is not clear why they did not bring it to at least testing. It could have been a very efficient setup, especially for shore work.

[Negro]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

However, several years ago, the installation of a 152-mm "Coalition" on ships was considered, it is not clear why they did not bring it to at least testing

So the Germans put their groove 2000 on the frigate. Ride and decided that it was not worth the fuss. Especially in the case of the Coalition, there the range, to put it mildly, is not beyond the horizon - this is fraught for the ship. But the idea is spinning, maybe someone will realize it.

[Eule]

Quote: mmaxx

this Tornado at least in the picture

The question of the price of a shot, PKUD in 152 will cost many times cheaper than 2,5 million rubles. for the "tornado" rocket (the price is from the Internet, I don't know if it's true)

Quote: Victor Leningradets

203-mm gun 2S7 "Peony" / 2S7M "Malka".

It's time to let civilian engineers in to automate production approach it. It's easy to make a loader out of commercial drive components, and ERFB blueprint projectiles, but more.
An industrial manipulator of 100-200 kg weighs, of course, almost a ton, but with a projectile it will be controlled much faster than soldiers, and most importantly, it will be able to load the gun on the way to the position, in any weather and quickly. Yes, and resistance to enemy fire - replacing a high-pressure hose is still easier than training a crew to replace a dead one.

[insafufa]

Quote: Victor Leningradets

The article mentions the 203-mm gun 2S7 "Peony" / 2S7M "Malka". It would make sense to attend to the manufacture of an analogue of "Krasnopol" for this caliber. Moreover, an active-rocket projectile with a warhead corresponding to "Excalibur" will fly 80 - 100 km.

So for a 152mm howitzer, the Krasnopol 1,3m long consists of three warhead units, a control unit, an engine and a knockout charge. In the meantime, the centimeter is 940 mm long if equipped with a glonas correction unit, there the range is limited by the characteristics of the gun

[d.zacharith]

Destroyers cannot be equipped with 203 mm caliber, i.k. displacement will not allow) and the return of the hull will not withstand

[Victor Leningradets]

Worked quite reliably for "Hull". Destroyers of the 3rd series of the "Arleigh Burke" type have a total displacement of up to 10000 tons, Sarych (Project 956) - up to 8000 tons. So everything is in order in this part.

[2112vda]

What is there to comment. For 30 years of the involutionary development of Russia, everything that was developed in the Soviet civilization was squandered. Remember how everyone walked and yelled good obscenities Yeltsin, Yeltsin.
Here, as in Talkov's song, "and nature is wise and the Most High eye sees our every step on a thorny road." The turn has come to answer for our "eccentricities" with the letter "M", that's what we fought for and ran into, now we are paying with the blood of soldiers. You have already read about the news that the Bosch company turned off everything. Research and design institutes were dispersed, some of the factories were demolished to the level of the foundation. It's just that the hour of reckoning has come for the stupid things that the people have done. . Watch more government cartoons about unparalleled. The situation is similar to 1941 and 1917 at the same time.

[Victor Leningradets]

It's just that the hour of reckoning has come for the stupid things that the people have done.

This is not stupidity and it was not created by the people. This is a betrayal of national interests by a part of the people, organized by the former KGB in the so-called. "elite". It began from the time when the leadership of the CPSU realized that nothing complicated needed to be done, it was easier to send raw materials abroad and use the funds received both for strategic purposes and to ensure a more or less tolerable standard of living for the population.
Russia, like the USSR, cannot exist outside the development project. This project was replaced by a project of dismantling a great power in favor of a raw material appendage of the "golden billion". The "elite" became fabulously rich (although "sesame" is in the hands of the true owners), and the people were offered not too thick raw material rent, and for those who need more - self-employment. At the same time, PR people talked a lot about freedom, the rejection of paternalism, and so on. As a result of the operation invented and carried out by Western strategists, the USSR was first collapsed, and then Russia was prepared for destruction.
And the people under any regime are busy with survival and procreation. It does not affect strategic decision making.

[Pantsuy]

Quote: 2112vda

The situation is similar to 1941 and 1917 at the same time.

More like 1905

[EFIM LYUBIN]

Everything written is very reminiscent of the events of the last peaceful years before the Second World War, when the Main Artillery Directorate of the Red Army under the command of Marshal Kulik believed German propaganda about the huge number of heavy tanks in the Wehrmacht and began to develop a 107 mm anti-tank gun, which was never created before the start of the war! And the famous forty-five cannon was discontinued - they say it is outdated! Something similar is happening right now! And what do you want from pompous parade-parquet generals who help thieves and traitors of the Russian oligarchy to "cut" the defense budget! All ears buzzed with front doors - "there are no analogues in the World", there are no analogues in the Russian army either!

[IL-18]

Quote: EFIM LYUBIN

the famous forty-five cannon was discontinued

and did it right. The fact that France was bent in a month and a half, even for the Germans, was unexpected. And if there was that missing 1 year, then tank corps, and the development of new equipment, and 57mm anti-tank guns, and airfields, etc.
The problem is different, that after 08.08.08/1941/XNUMX the time was not like in XNUMX, but we have Serdyukov. And no one sat down or was shot... Consequently, there is no reason to expect a quick change in the situation.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: IL-18

The problem is different, that after 08.08.08/1941/XNUMX the time was not like in XNUMX, but we have Serdyukov.

And what does Serdyukov have to do with it? Just the furniture maker managed to issue so many orders to the proms that some of them were carried out right up to the year before last. It's better to ask the shifter questions ...

[Pantsuy]

Quote: Alexey RA

It's better to ask the shifter questions ...

The changer in practice managed himself to the fullest.

[Negro]

Quote: IL-18

And if there was that missing 1 year, then tank corps, and the development of new equipment, and 57mm anti-tank guns,

Ага.

After Finland, the native party and Comrade Stalin personally took up the army in such a way that in a year there would be no one left alive. KV-3, ZiS-2, mechanized corps, which they just didn’t turn back in the 41st.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Negro

After Finland, the native party and Comrade Stalin personally took up the army in such a way that in a year there would be no one left alive.

So what were they to do if, according to the results of the SPV, it suddenly became clear that all the bravura reports about the steady growth of combat and political training were not worth the paper. on which they were written. And that the problems of Hassan, Khalkhin Gol and the Polish Campaign are not individual shortcomings, and the systemic crisis of the Red Army.
The USSR did not have a modern army - which was recognized by the best friend of athletes at the Meeting following the results of the SPV.

Quote: Negro

KV-3, ZiS-2, mechanized corps, which they just didn’t turn back in the 41st.

Planned turn back. You are aware of how the plans in the USSR correlated with reality. In 1942 there would have been the same T-34s, but after the UKN "from the 1001st machine", the same KVs (because the engine and transmission of the KV-3 were invincible). Unless the ZiS-2 could go into production ... but, given our industry, here I put it on the temporary replacement of the 57-mm anti-tank guns with the M-42, the task for which was issued in parallel with the ZIS-2.
The mechanized corps in 1942 would have been squeezed - following the results of the exercises in September 1941 and the data on the post-French reform of the OShS of panzerdivisions that finally crawled to the USSR.
But the GAZ-63/41 would go into the series.

[Negro]

Quote: Alexey RA

So what were they to do?

There, things went pretty quickly to the execution of Comrade Rokossovsky, I remember. Comrade Shaposhnikov also does not understand how he lived to be 41. Yes, and there were signals for Comrade Zhukov.

Quote: Alexey RA

So what were they to do if, according to the results of the SPV, it suddenly became clear

This became clear a little earlier, when, as a result of the Kyiv maneuvers, they had to shoot the blue command, the red command, intermediaries, and in general, shoot everyone who came to hand. I'm not really against it, but let's say the Americans drew slightly different conclusions from the Lusian maneuvers.

Quote: Alexey RA

They planned to return. You are aware of how the plans in the USSR correlated with reality.

From the point of view of breaking, they correlated normally.

Quote: Alexey RA

For 1942 there would be the same T-34s, but after the UKN "from the 1001st machine",

Is not a fact. There would be a T-50 and T34M completely redone and the same curve.

Quote: Alexey RA

the engine and transmission of the KV-3 were invincible

This would not hurt to remove the KV-1 not only from production, but also from service. See the fate of the T-28.

Quote: Alexey RA

Unless the ZiS-2 could go into production ...

We know how and when she went into the series. I strongly doubt that "one more year" and "Land Lease since 41" are compatible.

Quote: Alexey RA

The mechanized corps in 1942 would have been squeezed - following the results of the exercises in September 1941 and the data on the post-French reform of the OShS of panzerdivisions that finally crawled to the USSR.

In your concept, the USSR suddenly abruptly stops doing everything that it did from the very war alarm of 1927, 14 years old, and begins to do something sane. That is, this "another year" is not a continuation of the previous 14 years, but a 180-degree turn. I find this extremely unlikely.

This year will be used for the laying of the third Kronstadt with guns from Bismarck and Soviet Belorussia back.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Negro

There, things went pretty quickly to the execution of Comrade Rokossovsky, I remember.

On the contrary: Timoshenko and Budyonny, exactly at the beginning of 1940, began to scratch citizen Rokossovsky from the tenacious paws of Gosuzhas. And in March they scratched it out.

Quote: Negro

This became clear a little earlier, when, as a result of the Kyiv maneuvers, they had to shoot the blue command, the red command, intermediaries, and in general, shoot everyone who came to hand.

So it didn't help. And the execution of Blucher following the results of the same disastrous Hassan did not help. Everything was attributed to individual shortcomings and specific people.
Until a lot of blood was shed, they did not understand that the problem is in the system, and not in personalities.

Quote: Negro

Is not a fact. There would be a T-50 and T34M completely redone and the same curve.

T-50 - yes, most likely it would be. T-34M - not a fact. With him, PMSM, it would be like with the T-34 in 1940. You remember how many were planned for release and how many were made in real life.

Quote: Negro

This would not hurt to remove the KV-1 not only from production, but also from service.

Do you think Zaltsman would have been able to push through Kulik and Mehlis in peacetime? After all, the KV was accepted in the heat of the SPV, when the tank was needed urgently, urgently, yesterday. And then everything rested on the already well-established production of this semi-finished product.

Quote: Negro

We know how and when she went into the series. I strongly doubt that "one more year" and "Land Lease since 41" are compatible.

In general, there will be PTP of high-quality amplification, which will go to iptabr - there should be enough release for them. And the M-42 will go to regiments and battalions.

Quote: Negro

In your concept, the USSR suddenly abruptly stops doing everything that it did from the very war alarm of 1927, 14 years old, and begins to do something sane.

Nope. The USSR continues to do what it started in July 1940 - to verify theory with practice.
The order to conduct experimental exercises of the MK MVO in September 1941 was prepared even before the war. The purpose of the exercises is just to check the compliance of the OShS with the standard conditions for the use of MK: it was planned to check:

“... the saturation of fire weapons and the most appropriate placement of these weapons in units and subunits, the controllability of units and subunits, their mobility, the organization of reconnaissance and control bodies, the saturation of units with means: ferry, anti-aircraft defense, air defense, etc., the work of the rear of tank and motorized divisions in all links, without any convention, with a normal depth of supply, the time required to stretch and form the columns of a tank and motorized division, the actual depth of the columns on the march, the average speed of the columns, methods of organizing reconnaissance of the enemy’s defensive zone by ground and air means, width front, the depth of the battle formations of the mechanized corps in an offensive battle, whether the available service equipment and supplies (for all types of supplies) correspond to the actual needs of the units and formations of the mechanized corps, etc.

Quote: Negro

This year will be used for the laying of the third Kronstadt with guns from Bismarck and Soviet Belorussia back.

Avotfig.

In the released 19 1940 October, the Decree of the Council of People's Commissars and the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks "On the plan for military shipbuilding for 1941" was written: "...Do not produce new bookmarks for battleships and heavy cruisers, oblige the NKSP to concentrate forces on the construction of the heavy cruisers Kronstadt and Sevastopol, set the date for their launching in the III quarter of 1942, and decide on the caliber of the main artillery for them no later than mid-November. Suspend the construction of the battleship "Soviet Belarus" and instead lay four project 402 destroyers at the plant number 30 in Molotovsk.

Moreover, only two BSh GK cruiser sets were ordered from Krupp for Project 69I - and then the delivery schedule stretched, EMNIP, until 1943.
So in 1941 they will remake Project 69 into Project 69I and approve a new project.

On April 10 of the same year [1941], the Defense Committee made the final decision to install three twin-gun 69-mm main-caliber turrets on the Project 380 heavy cruisers under construction, approved the changes in the main tactical and technical elements associated with this, and ordered the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry (NKSP) to correct the technical design and approve it in its final form by October 15, 1941.

© A.A. Chernyshev. Project 69 heavy cruiser Kronstadt.

[Negro]

Quote: Alexey RA

they began to scratch out citizen Rokossovsky from the tenacious paws of Gosuzhas. And in March they scratched it out.

These are the details. If they didn’t shoot Comrade Rokossovsky, they would shoot Comrade Malinovsky, which is also a problem for me. Comrade Beria has a plan for the shaft, you need to enter into the position of comrades of the People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs. Comrade Stalin's methods of working with people did not change, he paused only at the Second World War, and not for everyone and not immediately - Comrade Pavlov and Comrade Novikov will not let you lie.

Quote: Alexey RA

So it didn't help. And the execution of Blucher following the results of the same disastrous Hasan did not help

It did not help to shoot Comrade Blucher - Comrade Zhukov must be shot.

Quote: Alexey RA

Until a lot of blood was shed, they did not understand that the problem is in the system, and not in personalities.

The whole system needs to be changed You talk dangerously. And for those times, and for these.

Quote: Alexey RA

With him, PMSM, it would be like with the T-34 in 1940. You remember how many were planned for release and how many were made in real life.

So our task is not to make the T-34M, but to stop the production of the T-34. Comrade Morozov fought this tank throughout the war until he was sent back to Kharkov.

Quote: Alexey RA

Do you think Zaltsman would have been able to push through Kulik and Mehlis in peacetime?

I just conservatively think that in this year the Soviet economy would work in the same way as in the previous two. And we know what the Soviet government did in the first two years of WWII.

Quote: Alexey RA

In general, there will be a high-quality amplification anti-tank drug that will go to iptabr

We both know that the only option for the USSR was the Pak 97/38. Which Comrade Grabin made out of his narrow departmental interests due to the impossibility of making those weapons that the military demanded of him.

Quote: Alexey RA

The purpose of the exercises is just to check the compliance of the OShS with the standard conditions for the use of MK: it was planned to check:

I kind of already mentioned the results of previous exercises on the massive use of mechanized forces.

Quote: Alexey RA

Avotfig

Quote: Alexey RA

Moreover, only two BSh GK cruiser sets were ordered from Krupp for pr. 69I

Well, that is, instead of Soviet Belarus, two "Kaliningrad" should be urgently laid down. Little difference.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Negro

So our task is not to make the T-34M, but to stop the production of the T-34.

Fedorenko will not let him - he has 29 MKs sitting without equipment. You must remember his pre-war note - more tanks for the god of tanks! Plus, in 1942 the threat of war was already considered very likely.
So, PMSM, T-34M will be put into series in Kharkov, and Stalingrad will continue to drive the T-34.

Quote: Negro

I just conservatively believe that this year the Soviet economy would work the same way as in the previous two.

So in previous two included the military months of 1939-1940. When it was possible to push a 45-ton tank with a transmission and suspension designed for 40 tons into service, then load it up to 48-50 tons and put a shed with a log-thrower on it. And do it all without testing. Because "the front demands".
In a peaceful 1941, such a lafa may not work - until the KV-3 rolls back the state, the army will not accept it. Especially having the experience of a year and a half of torment with the KV-1 and the plant that produces it, which refused to carry out the UKN.

Quote: Negro

We both know that the only option for the USSR was the Pak 97/38.

In wartime, yes. In peacetime, the proms will grind their teeth, push - but they will give birth to a stone flower of a 57-mm anti-tank gun. A small series, but will give birth. Because the shooting of armor in 1940 showed that the existing divisional anti-tank guns and divisional guns for anti-tank guns were unsuitable even against German STs.

Quote: Negro

I kind of already mentioned the results of previous exercises on the massive use of mechanized forces.

1935-1936? So these were not exercises, but ballet. Their task was show the product in person, and not to determine how this product is suitable for use.
And the GKZH issued an order to conduct experimental exercises of the MK.

Quote: Negro

Well, that is, instead of Soviet Belarus, two "Kaliningrad" should be urgently laid down. Little difference.

Will not work. Already laid down ships occupied all the slipways for "big pots". That is why all sorts of pr. 23 bis and pr. 23NU appeared there - because the Navy and the design bureau had time to finalize the basic projects due to the impossibility of laying the ships of the second stage in the next few years.
You can’t count on the place left at factory No. 402 after dismantling one of the two previously laid down LCs - local personnel not only arranged a mass marriage of riveting, but also dropped the main crane on the LC under construction. So in the coming years it would be difficult to build something larger than EM there.

[Negro]

Quote: Alexey RA

You must remember his pre-war note - more tanks for the god of tanks!

So he didn’t write about the T-34, but about the T-126, also known as the T-50, or even the T-60. Even the Soviet government was not going to arm 29 T-34 mechanized corps.

Quote: Alexey RA

In a peaceful 1941, such a lafa may not work

In the peaceful (already) 40th year, the T-34-76 that we know and love appeared. The one with the front sheet bent on the press. heterogeneous. Made in 25 tons after 15 tons TB-7M.

Quote: Alexey RA

but they will give birth to a stone flower 57-mm PTP. Small series, but will give birth

The British 50klb trunk could not, but the tips of 70klb could. The USSR has always been distinguished by successful and mass-produced high-ballistic weapons.
The longer the Soviet government will love the stewardess, or rather all the stewardesses at the same time - the later Comrade Grabin will take up his "third-rate not marriage."
As if the hands of the Soviet authorities did not reach 107mm PT. Of course on a horse-drawn traction.

Quote: Alexey RA

So these were not exercises, but ballet. Their task was to show the product in person, and not to determine how this product is suitable for use.

Uh-huh, I'm writing about it. Your USSR will do something and not the way it has ALWAYS done.

Quote: Alexey RA

Already laid down ships occupied all the slipways for "big pots"

So it is necessary to build new stocks. Without aircraft carriers, battleships are crossed out, we cannot overtake America, crossed out Britain.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Negro

So he didn’t write about the T-34, but about the T-126, also known as the T-50, or even the T-60. Even the Soviet government was not going to arm 29 T-34 mechanized corps.

But do not underestimate the Soviet power.

Taking into account the need for rearmament and the further growth of tank troops, the production task of the industry for the production of tanks should be set:
On 1942
Tanks "KB" - 4500
Tanks T-34 - 8000
Tanks T-50 - 4000
Tanks T-40 - 2000
Total: 18500
On 1943
Tanks "KB" - 7500
Tanks T-34 - 15000
Tanks T-50 - 10000
Tanks T-40 - 4000
Total: 36500

© "Fedorenko Report"
From such garbage, little ones. The GABTU on a blue eye demanded to give birth to 23 (twenty-three thousand) medium tanks of the 000-ton class in two years.

Quote: Negro

In the peaceful (already) 40th year, the T-34-76 that we know and love appeared. The one with the front sheet bent on the press. heterogeneous

A-34, before the start of mass production, was able to at least go beyond the range and somehow crawl to Moscow. And the KV-3 for 1941 was one solid smut with a suspension, transmission and engine (moreover, there was no native engine for the KV-3 yet).

Quote: Negro

The British 50klb trunk could not, but the tips of 70klb could.

Well, they made 370 pieces in 1941 - even taking into account the beginning of the Second World War.

Quote: Negro

As if the hands of the Soviet authorities did not reach 107mm PT.

What do you mean they didn't get there? We've arrived! Remember M75 from factory #172?

Quote: Negro

Your USSR will do something and not the way it has ALWAYS done.

Once again: the exercises of 1935 and the exercises of 1941 are different types of exercises. The only thing they have in common is the name - teachings. And the difference is like between a naval parade and states.
By the way, the need to revise the staff of the MK was announced back in 1940 - Khatskilevich at the December meeting slashed the truth in front of the high command: according to the results of the KShU, the corps does not fit into the band, the rear is overloaded. But in practice, the artillery of the corps is always lagging behind.

Quote: Negro

So it is necessary to build new stocks.

Nothing money. Niht frames. In 1941, the NKSP wailed like a wolf that after the staffing of the first stage of the plant in Molotovsk, the number of workers at the shipyards of the People's Commissariat fell to 50% of the state.

[Negro]

Quote: Alexey RA

The GABTU on a blue eye demanded to give birth to 23 (twenty-three thousand) medium tanks of the 000-ton class in two years.

Under Stalin, order was (s).

You roughly know how these maniafantazii correlated with the activities of Kharkiv residents. And the launch of the next completely redesigned tank under the guise of refining the old situation with the release would have greatly improved.

Quote: Alexey RA

KV-3 for 1941 - one solid smut with a suspension, transmission and engine (moreover, there was no native engine for the KV-3 yet).

- You're a member of the Komsomol!
And the machine gun fired again!

Quote: Alexey RA

Well, they made 370 pieces in 1941

Uh-huh.

Quote: Alexey RA

What do you mean they didn't get there? We've arrived!

Exactly.

Quote: Alexey RA

in 1940 - Khatskilevich at the December meeting chopped the truth-womb in front of the high command

Well, you see. It turns out that the rule "about 200 tanks in a division" was known to more or less everyone - the tank corps proper came to this almost immediately. But instead they sculpted you know what.

Quote: Alexey RA

Niht money. Niht frames.

And when was the Soviet regime different?

You see. In the alt-positive for the USSR, the future Generalissimo Stalin suddenly comes to his senses and begins to study the experience of the neighboring Generalissimo in the actions of a large, but poor and untrained army against an enemy superior in quality, but inferior in number.

I can’t imagine such a thing under living Soviet power. This is still, as you may have noticed, a very unpopular line of thought in our latitudes.

[Victor Leningradets]

If they sat on the priest exactly - that's when it would not be left.
And so it became clear what needs to be done, and the issue of price in Russia has always been determined by the waste of human resources.

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

If Germany had been at war with France for a year, the Germans by 1941 would also have been more serious than in reality. Starting from more advanced equipment in terms of combat experience and experienced troops to the military industry that has grown to full strength.

And how much can be blamed on Serdyukov, when we have ten years as Shoigu.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: EFIM LYUBIN

Everything written is very reminiscent of the events of the last peaceful years before the Second World War, when the Main Artillery Directorate of the Red Army under the command of Marshal Kulik believed German propaganda about the huge number of heavy tanks in the Wehrmacht and began to develop a 107 mm anti-tank gun, which was never created before the start of the war!

This is not propaganda, but official intelligence data of the Red Army. Which, in all seriousness, fed the leadership of the Red Army with fables about the use by the Germans of thick-armored tanks with 88-105 mm guns back in the French campaign. And in 1941, the same intelligence reported on the presence in the Panzerwaffe of heavy tank divisions armed with serial tanks with 80-120 mm armor (of which this intelligence counted as many as three types).

Quote: EFIM LYUBIN

And the famous forty-five cannon was discontinued - they say it is outdated!

The removal of the 45 mm PTP from production was due to two factors:
1. The presence in the troops of 14900 of these anti-tank guns. With an estimated loss rate of 75% for the first year of the war, this amount would be enough before the start of mass production of new anti-tank guns. Alas, the Red Army blocked all the norms, having already lost half a month later available magpies.
2. Absolutely insufficient armor penetration of the 45 mm BBS. What kind of heavy tanks are there - during tests in 1940, a 45-mm anti-tank gun was able to penetrate everything 40 mm armor of the German type (K=2600) from a distance 150 m (the angle from the normal is 30 degrees). That is, one could forget about the defeat in the forehead even of the average "three" or "four" - after France they had a 30 + 30 mm sandwich or a 50 mm monolith there.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

The reconnaissance data may have been exaggerated, but even Pavlov, who was shot later, if my memory serves me, complained that the 45-mm gun did not penetrate the frontal armor of the StuG-III.
And Kulik must be credited, which is possible precisely thanks to his pickiness, Grabin managed to create his masterpiece ZIS-3 based on his previous F-22USV and ZIS-2.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

but even Pavlov, who was shot later, if my memory serves me, complained that the 45-mm gun did not penetrate the frontal armor of the StuG-III.

EMNIP, the frontal armor "Shtuga" in domestic tests even 76-mm hardly penetrated. Extremely inconvenient self-propelled guns for IPTA.
However, this was also known before the war - the 40-caliber 76-mm had significant discrepancies with the theory even when working on domestic armor with K = 2450-2500.

[Eug]

Perhaps it makes sense to work on the urgent modernization of trunks? But the "eternal" will rise
question - what to do with those in warehouses? At the same time, upgrading Krasnopol for an autonomous (using GLONASS or GPS) guidance system.

[Adrey]

Quote: Eug

At the same time, upgrading Krasnopol for an autonomous (using GLONASS or GPS) guidance system.

We have 2S3 "Acacia" and "Msta-S" have a satellite positioning system on installations (I don't know )? And the towed artillery (almost a rhetorical question)?

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

There are big doubts about the ability of the domestic industry in large volumes and with proper quality to produce even obsolete barrels, not just improved ones.

[malyvalv]

The best counter-battery fight is suppressed enemy air defense and attack drones hanging over the enemy’s head for days. But unfortunately we don't have that yet.
But how do they manage.

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

Somehow. And sometimes they don't work. The only advantage is that for the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the loss of every Western self-propelled gun is a heavy blow, there are nothing of them. We still have a lot of self-propelled guns.

[Nikolaevich I]

There is something to think about while our gunners, without exaggeration, heroically carry out their tasks at the front.
Before I had to "think"! And now it's too late ... now we must act! Think, don't think, but a hundred rubles is not money! Brought to the "porch" by "effective managers" from the Moscow Region! Only one can say them as an "justification" .... MO on the salary of the country's ruling regime ... how much it gives, so much stolen ... you can spend! And how here to "work" with such "subsidies" ?! And buy guns, and send your son to study at an overseas university, and "suffer" a 3-story dacha, and get a Lexus to go to the dacha! And all these "pennies" So maybe nafik ... these guns? The dacha is nicer, and the son is dearer! And the ruling regime can be understood if you are imbued with Putin's problems! Where can I get the money for "armature" and "coalition" if you have to buy everything anyway. ..from "Boeings" to Chinese clothespins! Moreover, the oligarchs' sidekicks are "friendly" asking to equip them ... either the "Chinese Silk Road", or the Turkish one with the "North European" streams! But you will not respond to the "request" so the "revolutionary sailors" of Abramovich can swoop into the Kremlin! That's enough "penenza" just to buy the front "prodigy waffle" and drive it around and aroundand back, so that overseas adversaries get scared! And if the adversaries, due to cataracts, do not see the "second army in the world" on Red Square, then larger exercises can be arranged ... somewhere in the Crimea, or nearby! And the warmth and the "abroad" are near! And then there was "Puck and his team" let down! First, they asked for money for a satellite constellation ... they say for Ukrainian girls who swim naked in the Dnieper, we will peep ... and then we will definitely show the pictures! Kren knows what they have seen enough of there, but they said that Ukraine has "ripened" sexually and it can be taken (!) ... in marriage without any bride price! It was only when they went to woo, it immediately turned out that the money for the satellite constellation was sleeping .. lemon (!) And they didn’t see anything there and didn’t understand anything! They something sho! And the "guarantor" has to prove that "they stumbled out of the blue twice, and stepped on a rake three times, so this is all according to plan (!) ... Schaub was funnier in the world! In Russia, a fun guide!

[Dilettante grandfather]

Before I had to "think"!

Listen, what are we doing here?! Have you thought about it? Earlier? And why didn’t they convey their idea to the MO ?! What kind of Biden are you venting your anger at us, let me know. We, the readers of this site, are to blame for this situation? If you are indignant - write to responsible comrades.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Grandfather is an amateur

Listen, what are we doing here?

And why did you, early in the morning, break off the chain and start barking at me? Haven't you been fed since morning? What do I have to do with it? There was a time, I wrote "where it should be"! And there were expert articles that expressed concern about the emerging situation ... there were warnings that if no measures were taken in the coming years, then there would be helical situations like those that arose in the NWO! But it was not possible to reach out to the "sleeping with snoring"! But is everything done? You? Us? Maybe if collective alarms from members of the VO forum and other "militarized" sites were sent to the Moscow Region more often, the RF Ministry of Defense would have "reacted" more carefully? (Although it remains to "guess" how the Ministry of Defense would "react"!) You should have noticed that the current regime of power most often does not give a damn (and often, does not care deeply ...) on the opinion of the Russians! Which gives rise, more and more often, "conflicts" between the authorities and part of the Russians! Unfortunately, while this "part" is too small (or it seems to the authorities that it is small ...) for the authorities to "itch" in the back of the head or below the waist!

[User_neydobniu]

If there is no qualitative way to outplay the enemy, then it's time to use special. ammo...

[cold wind]

Are you ready for death, starvation and serious illnesses of your relatives and loved ones? Friends, wife, children, parents, grandparents? Because everything you see now will be destroyed? Do you understand that the West also has nuclear weapons? Or, as in the joke “what are we for?”.
Not to mention the senselessness of using tactical nuclear weapons in military terms.
And most importantly for what? Can't win over your neighbor? For the first time, right? Well, to hell with him.

[User_neydobniu]

Are you ready for death, starvation and serious illnesses of your relatives and loved ones? Friends, wife, children, parents, grandparents? Because everything you see now will be destroyed? Do you understand that the West also has nuclear weapons? Or, as in the joke “what are we for?”.

Are you sure that the West will decide to use strategic nuclear weapons in response to TNW strikes in Ukraine, while knowing that the Russian Federation will also use strategic nuclear weapons in the West?

Not to mention the senselessness of using tactical nuclear weapons in military terms.

Oh, how it turns out that TNW was created and developed in all nuclear powers by idiots who did not know that its use was pointless militarily

And most importantly for what? Can't win over your neighbor? For the first time, right? Well, to hell with him.

It’s right to shower the enemy with the meat of the military and mobilized is good, to expose your civilian population to blows, the population of Donbass is sacred ... But to use tactical nuclear weapons according to the Armed Forces of Ukraine, we are not like that, our people can die there!

It's time for you to use dill

[cold wind]

Don `t doubt. True, they can first conduct an air offensive operation. With the destruction of the Black Sea Fleet, the air defense of the country, the Western groupings of the army as a single structure.
This was explained to the current authorities of the Russian Federation, so they stopped talking about nuclear weapons.
TNW was created by other people, for other wars. A dozen outbreaks will not affect anything, thousands are needed, we stupidly don’t have carriers for them.

[User_neydobniu]

Don `t doubt. True, they can first conduct an air offensive operation. With the destruction of the Black Sea Fleet, the air defense of the country, the Western groupings of the army as a single structure.

And then Mikula woke up, but the light in Kyiv was not turned on ...

This was explained to the current authorities of the Russian Federation, so they stopped talking about nuclear weapons.

Mikula, have you already explained something to the authorities of the Russian Federation? I don’t argue that the guarantor of Ukropov considers you his people, he spoke about this more than once, but do you really think that this is guaranteed to save you from nuclear weapons

we stupidly have no carriers for them.

You don’t, I don’t even argue here, but the RA has the same 2C7 and 2C7M, as well as special warheads for them ...

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Did he explain to the current authorities of the Russian Federation or was he present during the explanations? Where does the information to which you can not have access, under any circumstances?

[Pantsuy]

Quote from cold wind

True, they can first conduct an air offensive operation. With the destruction of the Black Sea Fleet, the air defense of the country, the Western groupings of the army as a single structure.

Given how this notorious NMD is being conducted and how our valiant generals are leading, I am already ready to agree that NATO will do this very easily and quickly. It's all sad and embarrassing to the point of impotence.

[spektr9]

Given how this notorious NMD is being conducted and how our valiant generals are leading, I am already ready to agree that NATO will do this very easily and quickly. It's all sad and embarrassing to the point of impotence.

And why complain about NATO, even in terms of the number of + and - to the comment about the use of tactical one can see how rotten the Russian Federation is, here even on the site the majority are ready to endure the arrivals of strategists in Voronezh, if only carpet bombing does not arrive in the cities of sacred Ukraine, or someone didn’t work for nuclear ...
Well, accordingly, the authorities do not lag behind

[alexoff]

Well, depending on where these dozens of outbreaks will occur. Port of Rotterdam, Rammstein base, Hollywood and other crucial places may well calm the enemies. But for this you need to have diamonds in your pants

[pariarg]

Quote from: User_neydobniu

If there is no qualitative way to outplay the enemy, then it's time to use special. ammo...

Only a non-Russian devil can offer to hit the Russian land of the so-called "Ukraine" with radioactive ammunition.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

It is difficult to consider people as Russians, especially from Western Ukraine, who draw pictures and letters as images from corpses. And it is problematic to consider that Russian land.

[Nikolaevich I]

Oh, lads! And what was on fire here? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mikhail Maslov]

Before Roman’s article, I read Khodakovsky, almost the same alignment, let’s add here weak counter-battery combat, reconnaissance, mobility. And one more nuance you have ever heard or seen, the creation and use of reserve artillery to break through defense, using the example of the Second World War, when hundreds of barrels fell on of the enemy before the offensive. Our artillery is not "blurred" along the front. There is no decisive help from artillery even now during the assaults on fortified areas. This only means that we cannot rationally use what we have.

[cold wind]

Quote: Mikhail Maslov

when hundreds of barrels fell on the enemy before the offensive. No, our artillery is "blurred" along the front. There is no decisive help from artillery even now during the assaults on fortified areas. This only means that we cannot rationally use what we have.

This was the case in March and May. As a result, the capture of Lisichansk, Svatovo. Only when the chimarsoids arrived and modern artillery did the concentration become impossible.
After that operation, a huge number of shells and barrels were fired. Himars and escaliburs destroyed frontline warehouses. As a result, shell and barrel hunger. 122 mm shells simply ran out, but artillery of the 40s D-1, S-60 appeared en masse at the front. On the other hand, on the contrary, there is an increase in the number of shells, including Soviet calibers.

[alexoff]

You are mistaken - art after Lisichansk went home at the end of June, the commander-in-chief on TV allowed him to rest. They just didn't come back. And then part by part was displayed all summer, the vidos were how they were met in the cities. Instead of them came only now mobilized.

[Dimax-nemo]

Oops! Interestingly, the girls are dancing ...... were you going to agree at the expense of Kherson and Zaporozhye?

[pariarg]

Quote: Mikhail Maslov

Before Roman’s article, I read Khodakovsky, almost the same alignment, let’s add here weak counter-battery combat, reconnaissance, mobility. And one more nuance you have ever heard or seen, the creation and use of reserve artillery to break through defense, using the example of the Second World War, when hundreds of barrels fell on of the enemy before the offensive. Our artillery is not "blurred" along the front. There is no decisive help from artillery even now during the assaults on fortified areas. This only means that we cannot rationally use what we have.

Gnidaa and pest Khodakovsky accomplice of this mess.
All these 9 years he has been assenting to the Kremlin's cunning Russophobes.

[Dimax-nemo]

Let's start with the fact that Khodakovsky, with all due respect to him, was originally a GB, and not an artilleryman. To which he was "hinted" in the spring.

[Nikolaevich I]

AR artillery operates with 3 mortar calibers (82 mm, 120 mm and 240 mm
Well, not quite so ... "the former" NM of the DPR and LPR actively uses 60-mm mortars (!) ... they are even produced there ... By the way, they told me that the units of the Armed Forces during the NWO did not "disdain" 60mm mortars! There is one more note ... special units of the Armed Forces use "special mortars" "Gall"! And there are mines, albeit 82 mm, but "their own"!
and 3 gun calibers (122mm, 152mm and 203mm)
Well, not exactly like that ... Judging by reports, the 100-mm Rapira anti-tank guns have recently begun to be used more actively! (By the way, the Armed Forces of Ukraine too!) It should not be forgotten that 125-mm tank guns are often used as self-propelled guns ... and with the advent of the T-62 on the "front", 115-mm tank guns! And again ... and the 120-mm "single" guns of the "Nona"? And escho (!) ... 152-mm guns "Hyacinth" and 152-mm howitzers have different shots!

[Dimax-nemo]

The author definitely "forgot" about the 100-mm, perhaps it is the OFS in their ammunition load that is the only serious reason for the presence of Rapier in the states of the anti-tank brigade division. His 120-mm Nonas, apparently, go like "mortars".

[Eug]

For some reason, I always thought that 155 mm. and 152 mm. the shells are the same in diameter (taking into account the difference in the measurement of calibers) - along the fields (152) and along the rifling (155). Connoisseurs, is it so or not, tell me, please.

[Passing]

There is no division into Western and domestic measurement systems, this is another viral myth. With rare exceptions, such as the Parabellum cartridge, the division of the reference system of the caliber takes place according to the metric / inch measurement system. T to NATO calibers are metric, then the caliber is considered by fields. From memory, the diameter of the leading belt of a 155 mm caliber projectile is about 158 ​​mm, for our 152,4 mm add 3 mm, it will be approximately 155.4 mm.

[stankow]

Maybe not NATO has metric gauges, but Russian ones - a legacy from inches?

And do not add to the 155th, but subtract 3 mm, here you have the same 152 along the leading NATO belt.

[Passing]

stankow, I don’t have fortune-telling, but personally verified info, if you don’t believe me (and don’t have to), then go to Wikipedia (English), and analyze a dozen or two cartridges of various measurement systems, metric and inch. After that, you get your own, having real weight, KNOWLEDGE, and not this here, trendy, extremely mythologized in its origins, OPINION.
PS; I’m sure that you certainly won’t get into any Wikipedia (or other resource), so I’ll give you an easy way to join KNOWLEDGE - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M107_projectile

[Dimax-nemo]

The Germans and Russians created their rifled artillery "separately" from the British and French. Therefore, the approaches to this case were initially different. But at the same time, the Germans did not measure their guns in inches. The difference in calibers is not limited to 9mm. Russian 7,62 in fact 7,92, 5,45 practically 5,56. By the way, it's all fractions of an inch. Russian artillery in "inches" (more precisely, in "lines") basically remained - except for small-caliber and 100-mm ones.

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

It seems that the difference is due to the fact that our caliber is 6 inches (152,4 mm), and NATO uses the French metric 155 mm caliber. It was chosen by the French gunners in the 1880s as the optimal one based on some scientific calculations of the time.

[Vlad2012]

The ballistics of the Coalition was supposed to be a response to the massive appearance of 155 mm L52 howitzers in the enemy. Msta-S is inferior to them in ballistics. The Coalition has a problem with a modular charge that our industry cannot master in production. Unlike the industry of Serbia, India, Turkey, South Africa and others. Serbia now offers self-propelled guns even with better ballistics than those of the Coalition.

[Pantsuy]

Quote: Vlad2012

The Coalition has a problem with a modular charge that our industry cannot master in production. Unlike the industry of Serbia, India, Turkey, South Africa and others. Serbia now offers self-propelled guns even with better ballistics than those of the Coalition.

The Russian engineering school has become smaller and degraded. And it all started with the degradation of the system of school and higher education.

[Dimax-nemo]

But not Germany or France, let alone the US. There is, I suspect, a lot of stuff in the Coalition that we "can't" master. Our generals tried to introduce cartridge case (sleeveless) loading a couple of times before 1991, and each time it flew by.

[MonsterTank]

It’s not clear to me how in some units they bring artillery to such a state that their guns are torn off. Isn't it easier to send them for repairs than to shoot all the way in the calculation to make an extra couple of hundred shots? Or is everyone hoping that the plant will promptly send a new replacement?

[Pantsuy]

Quote: MonsterTank

Or is everyone hoping that the plant will promptly send a new replacement?

And where to get them if they have not been produced by industry for a long time?

[Zaurbek]

As far as I understand, the main problems can be solved with the help of UAVs and a modern control center. And the trunks need to be made under the coalition, put not only on super-duper automated unmanned vehicles, but also changed to self-propelled guns, done like Hyacinth - on an open cart ..... on an open wheeled vehicle. Then there will be saturation. For example, I have not seen self-propelled guns with a coalition without a deserted tower. On self-propelled guns like this and on Kamaz, but on BAZ, for some reason, they put a barrel from MSTA ... Strange. And now everyone admires Caesar and counts every wrecked car.

[stankow]

Only an avid Westernophile can admire Caesar. A knowledgeable artilleryman - never.

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

Why don't you have the letter y on your keyboard?

[stankow]

Because I’m anti-wheeled, I don’t like wheeled self-propelled guns. Wow, I burned myself. Watch my activities carefully! I also don’t have an E-negotiable!!? Anything can be expected from such a spy! Even to the point of criticizing Saint Caesar

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

You also separate the exclamation point from the sentence with a space. This is accepted by the rules of the French language, but in Russian they never do this.

[Dimax-nemo]

The author somehow "missed" that Hyacinth-S actually shoots further than Msta. And that the Coalition in the NWO was used in quantities quite comparable to the Pz2000 (and shoots farther and faster than the "Panzer", and even more so faster than Caesar). And that the M777 has FH-70 ballistics. The M109 at least has not the best ballistics, the US Army still does not have 155/52 field guns and wheeled self-propelled guns. Those. they are still sitting on the "tools of the 70s of the last century." And for some reason I "forgot" about the D-20.

NATO artillery "outperforms" Russian artillery not so much due to the qualities of the barrels themselves (as for accuracy, we started using 52 caliber barrels with progressive rifling just earlier than in NATO), but due to fire control systems, reconnaissance equipment and modern precision munitions. Those. in principle, this is CORRECTIBLE with the modernization of even existing artillery systems (which does not cancel the mass production of the Coalition).

[Negro]

Quote: Dimax-Nemo

trunks long 52 clbr. with progressive cutting, we began to use

On what system, sorry?

And that the Coalition in the NWO was used in quantities quite comparable to the Pz2000

Seriously? How many are there in parts?

[Dimax-nemo]

Hyacinth - 152/54, Msta - 152/53. While NATO accepted 155/39, we mass-produced Hyacinth.
I don't know how many Coalition units there are. But they were used in NWO, the effect was quite noticeable and noticeable on the "other" side.

[APASUS]

The 82-mm automatic mortar 2S9 "Vasilek" is in service with both armies.

There is not a big amendment. Ours refused, for some unknown reason, from the 2S9 "Cornflower". There are practically none in the army. They are not visible on the set, from the war zone
Interestingly, China has increased the number of 2S9 Vasilek in the PLA for turnover, up to several thousand

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

There was a video with DPR fighters carrying a Vasilek mortar in the back of a KAMAZ truck. But without stops in the ground, respectively, the shooting is with reduced accuracy.

[stankow]

Cornflower very well lit up in the frames from the NWO. Seen it's pretty good.

[TermNachTer]

I don’t know how the situation with counter-battery firing is in theoretical calculations. But in real life, Banderaaffen, in the Donbass, they complain that there is no life from Russian art. And no one is pushing her. And about the "tornado". Yes, RS with a range of 120 km. - deficit, but the range is 90 km. there is no shortage. And besides, the "Himers" hits the coordinates that must be entered into the GN, and the "tornado" is not big, but does not stand still. He fired back and left, so the question will hit "Himers" or not. And finally, what prevents adding the Tor or Pantsir BM to the "tornado" platoon?

[Negro]

Quote: TermNachTER

But in real life, Banderaaffen, in the Donbass, they complain that there is no life from Russian art

)))
They mostly complain to the valiant military commissars.

However, you are partly right. The article says this. The Russian Federation has a significant, at times, superiority in the number of barrels and the consumption of shells. Therefore, in sectors of the front that are secondary from the point of view of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the "thin layer" of Russian artillery from the ground does not seem thin at all.

But in key areas, the quality of imported products begins to play its role.

Quote: TermNachTER

but the range is 90 km. there is no deficit

9M528 is not a shortage? Wow.

Quote: TermNachTER

Shot back and left, so will the "Hymers" hit or not hit another question

You see, leaving for a short time, the question is how to arrive. Or he comes with the whole division from the deep rear on calls - and this is considered a day. Or he stands in advance in a position from which he can cover the artillery that has shown itself - which means it is waiting for the arrival on its own. According to reports from the field, former brothers react quickly and clearly to fat targets.

Quote: TermNachTER

finally, what prevents adding the BM "Tor" or "Shell" to the platoon of "tornadoes"?

So that radio intelligence could see them too? Good idea.

[TermNachTer]

And by the way, they complain that imported art quickly fails. Not least because it shoots at maximum range, with maximum charges. That is, fashionable gay European guns will continue to break at an accelerated pace. I already said about 777 that the cannon, to put it mildly, is very so-so. The Hindus, after a trial batch, abandoned it.
If the division of "tornadoes" is 80 km away. from the front - who will cover it? And at the expense, a day to leave - how is it? Is the work of the division planned for the day? As for the "torus" or "shell", there are a lot of such cars at the front and it's not so easy to "squeeze out" on the air that this is a "shell" that covers the "tornado" and does not stand near Melitopol. Our RTR and EW are also working.

[Negro]

Quote: TermNachTER

by the way, they complain that imported art quickly fails

By the way, they complain that imported art is used with crooked hands. This is not a D-20, there are other loads. "Either right or not" - this applies to almost any Western weapon.

Quote: TermNachTER

I already said about 777 that the cannon, to put it mildly, is very so-so.

777 it concerns in the first place. By itself, her barrel is just designed for about 3 thousand shots - this is more than the Hyacinth barrel, but less than the D-20 barrel. For high costs, they took 105 mm.

Quote: TermNachTER

The Hindus, after a trial batch, abandoned it.

Holding a contest and then giving up everything is an Indian tradition. There is a song and dance competition all the time.

Quote: TermNachTER

If the division of "tornadoes" is 80 km away. from the front - who will cover it?

What is he doing there? He can hardly get the LBS there, and they are unlikely to bring artillery to the LBS.

Quote: TermNachTER

Is the work of the division planned for the day?

A day is an absolutely fantastic speed for a weapon of army subordination. More like a month. Not Americans tea. So I played some more. Pass information upstairs, receive an order from above, start up, arrive at the position - at least half a day.
Counter-battery cases need a direct radar-battery connection. Received a signal and immediately shoot, without pause.

[stankow]

No one shoots at maximum range. Myth is. All these 80-90 km from the advertising booklets of weapons that were made for sale, not for combat.

[Dimax-nemo]

It’s not entirely clear, why is the 9M528 “deficit”, if GLONASS was forced to stick into any cart with four wheels, and the Tornado projectile was initially not quite “cast iron”? And in general, the complete contempt of the Moscow Region for satellite-guided projectiles is incomprehensible. According to rumors, Krasnopol was "saved" by Orlans-30.

[merkava-2bet]

The problem of artillery of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation in the NMD could be partially solved by radio fuses and cluster shells, so far I have not found confirmation of their use in the NMD in Ukraine.

[svp67]

Quote: merkava-2bet

could be partly solved by radio fuses

Would the PROGRAMMABLES decide?

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

They would also decide, but they must be available for tank guns and anti-aircraft guns.

[Dimax-nemo]

Cluster shells are prohibited. Remote fuses seem to be as they should be.

[stankow]

convention on cassette didn't sign neither Russia, nor Ukraine, nor the USA, China, Israel.

[Dimax-nemo]

However, the United States hid these shells far away, and so far they have not been given to the APU. The Turks promised, but only promised.

[stankow]

And yet, about the cassette west, it will stink. You can just OP, the difference is small. And indeed, civilians will suffer unnecessarily - scatter, non-split, etc.

[Hog]

The author misleads readers, the problem is not in artillery systems, but in shells for them. Not to mention the intelligence and data transmission system.

[stankow]

The author himself is in the deepest confusion about what art is, what problems, what trends. He has only stories and myths from Lenin's room

[iouris]

Ukraine - FSE! She has already been killed against Russia.
Russia is fighting against the US and NATO. By all standards, this is a world war.

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

The war of the Russian Federation with the United States and NATO can only be nuclear. Nuclear-free will end a week after the US and NATO come to it.

[svp67]

Well, not all artillery systems are listed, there are no Rapier, D-20 and Tulips in the lists

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

If we knew in advance which artillery systems would be in demand, the 125-mm self-propelled anti-tank gun 2A45M Sprut-B would have gone into production ahead of time.

That's a cannon, so a cannon, right for modern conditions, that's it. Unification with tank shells, high trajectory flatness, self-propulsion to change positions. It could well replace tanks, as they are now used when firing from closed positions. And even in some ways it will be better than the 152-mm "Hyacinth", due to the lower mass and the possibility of self-propelled. And it certainly surpasses the 100-mm Rapier.
If the conflict drags on, then it's time to start production and put it into action.

[svp67]

Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich

That's a cannon, so a cannon, right for modern conditions, that's it.

No... Characteristics are not high... Elevation angle -6..+25, this is not enough
The design of the same KB 152-mm PAT-B, now it could be useful, both towed and for installation on a self-propelled chassis, especially a wheeled one, its elevation angle is -5 .. + 70, and the firing range is higher

[Wayfarer_2]

I believe it is high time for the leadership of the Russian Defense Ministry to ask questions about the notorious 70% of the army's equipment with modern weapons, which Shoigu proudly reported on. And much more. About the same "Warriors", for example.

[Vlad Gor]

SVO in Ukraine showed all the abomination of Yeltsin's liberal crap and his heirs. The military and economic superiority of NATO over the Russian Federation appeared after the death of the USSR. This superiority increased the power of the Russian Federation. In the absence of industry in the Russian Federation, there is no other way out in the purchase of weapons from Iran and North Korea. This is a big question, but will Iran and North Korea agree to sell weapons ???

[Fangaro]

Uuuuhhh...
Infrequently, comments on VO are more interesting than the article itself, and contain no less information, and perhaps more than that of the author!
Amateurish thoughts ... Well, if I look like a fool, you minus ...

The farther a projectile can fly, the more the accuracy of its landing is affected by the environment and the movement of the target. If the projectile is made more powerful so that it flies faster and the target does not have time to move, then the environment will also have a stronger effect on the accuracy of the landing.
If you attach wings to the projectile and something, due to which it deviates less from the target due to environmental influences, then it will fly a little slower.
If you add various sensors to the projectile, guidance from drones, from satellites, it will become expensive in production.
Then why do many advocate modern shells? Mortars are a malicious evil for everyone who even passed mathematics in the 80s and understands at least a little what a trajectory means.

If something is completely wrong - tell me, please.
If you think that "I'm bringing a blizzard", minus it.
PS. With analog radio communication, I would not ask such questions.

[Negro]

Some kind of strange formulation of the question.

The manager turns the artillery scattering ellipse into a missile QUO. Considering the current prices for active rockets and modular charges, in order to fight back, the manager must reduce the consumption of shells by three to four times. Pure arithmetic problem. Plus, the bonus greatly simplifies (and therefore accelerates) aiming.

By the way, this means that if you spend 10 thousand shells per day, and the enemy - a thousand, but half of the guided ones, then in fact the enemy outnumbers you in artillery.

A high-precision type Excalibur is generally about something else. High-precision can be used when it is necessary to lay down a specific house in a dense building and it is IMPOSSIBLE to get into the neighboring one. The Russian army will not have such problems. More precisely, Russian politicians.

[Dimax-nemo]

GPS / GLONASS receiver is not so expensive. One guided projectile in some cases replaces 20 conventional ones, this was calculated even under the USSR. Although not in all. But now no one is ready to make hundreds of thousands of 152-155 mm shells a month. Purely economical.

[_palych_]

"People and volleys of thousands of guns mixed up in a bunch of horses", the god of artillery of the RA, some kind of ASUk. And what is the difference between the domestic 152 and the NATO 155, really, depending on how you measure it. Our 152 mm gun caliber, bore diameter 152,4 mm + 3,05 .1 mm (rifling depth of 155,45% for howitzers), diameter along the bottom of the rifling = 6,1 mm. For guns + 2 mm (rifling depth of 158,5% for guns), the diameter along the bottom of the rifling = 155 mm. We measure the caliber along the fields in the bore and NATO - the depth of the rifling, it turns out: NATO 154,3 mm caliber guns, bore diameter by rifling 3,09 mm - 1 mm (grooving depth of 151,2% for howitzers), bore diameter = 1 (at 154,3%). For guns, it is already 6,2 - 2 mm (rifling depth of 148,1% for guns), bore diameter = 2 mm (at 152.4%). It turns out that our howitzers are NATO 151.2-152.4, guns 148.1-155. NATO caliber is determined by the bottom of the rifling in the bore. And then the local multi-machine operator Skomorokhov declares "here the longer-range 155-mm guns have a clear advantage." After all, it’s clearly not the caliber, the composition of the gunpowder, the FCS, the correction module. So why is the 152.4 NATO caliber better? XNUMX of Russia, reminds a joke:
"A Georgian and an Armenian are driving in a compartment, they are silent. The Georgian says:" Georgians are better than
Armenians! "
The Armenian is silent. The Georgian repeats: "Georgians are better than Armenians!" That again
is silent. The Georgian again says: "Do you hear? Georgians are better than Armenians!"
The Armenian could not stand: "What? What ??"
Georgian: "What, what ... I said, than the Armenians!" :).
Another passage of the author "At least 12 manufactured self-propelled guns" Coalition-SV ", which has been hoarded since 2002 for more than 20 years, cannot have absolutely no effect on the current situation." But Danes, Crabs, of which there are a dozen or Caesar, they of course, unlike thousands of our proven guns, oh, how they affect ... on the brains of Roman Skomorokhov.

[TermNachTer]

From myself I can add, although not quite in the subject, 9 - mm. Makarov pistol, in the West they call "Makarov pistol of caliber 9,2 mm."))))

[Dimax-nemo]

Threat, we also measure the barrel length in a different way, it will also be interesting to compare Hyacinth and Msta with NATO ones.
12 Coalitions at the front "quite noticed." Another thing is that all this needs to be managed. Unfortunately, we have to admit that the Armed Forces of Ukraine are doing this better, plus data from Western satellites, which we consider 0.

[ch28k38]

Perhaps I am behind the times, but the classification of guns according to the length of the barrel was as follows: 15 - 30 calibers - howitzer, 25 - 40 calibers - howitzer-cannon, over 40 - cannon. Therefore, a howitzer with a barrel length of 52 caliber makes me a little bewildered.

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

You have an outdated classification. A howitzer is distinguished from a cannon by a variable charge.

[stankow]

And the elevation angle is more than 45 degrees. And optimizing the barrel for wear resistance, not for high early. speed.

[Beagle]

Article ... It seems to be the norm, but it seems not ... It's not entirely clear: is everything gone, or can it still be caught up and overtaken?

[usm5]

The author feels a great resentment for the RF Ministry of Defense. War is a competent distribution of the efforts of different branches of the armed forces, taking into account the strengths and weaknesses of the enemy. You can't be strong in everything. It does not happen anywhere and never. The range of Haimars and self-propelled guns can be neutralized by air and ground guided missiles, as well as strikes by kamikaze drones, which is being done now. That's what the author is right about is that a NATO satellite constellation hangs over the heads of the Russian army, from which "you can't hide." Without it, the APU is like a blindfolded dog with plugged ears. Here is the main danger. This is what cannot be tolerated in any way, since such patience results in direct combat losses and leads to a possible defeat in the war.

[Negro]

Quote from usm5

Here's what can't be tolerated

)))
Or what?

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

The author feels a great resentment for the RF Ministry of Defense.

You know, now a great resentment against the Russian Defense Ministry is rising all over the country. And if everything continues in the same spirit, they will simply start beating the face for the stripes.

War is a competent distribution of the efforts of different branches of the armed forces, taking into account the strengths and weaknesses of the enemy.

Correctly. What is the strength of the Armed Forces? Their mighty Atlantic fleet! Therefore, it is necessary to spend billions on Kuznetsov, and the drones will somehow get screwed.

Here's what can't be tolerated

And what method of impatience do you propose?

[Alex242]

Quote: Pantsuy

Quote: Aerodrome

it’s kind of gloomy ... it’s better to watch the Security Council on REN TV, everything is rosy there.

You can also revise the "Strike Force" or "Military Acceptance" for the Star. There, in general, we are ahead of the rest.

there 50 percent of fairy tales are shown ....

[Illanatol]

Quote: mmaxx

The new 155mm is fundamentally better than our old 152.

Caliber is the fifth thing here. Extra 3 mm do not make the weather.
The problem is not in the caliber, but in the quality of the manufacture of the barrel, cutting, length in calibers. Western manufacturers squeezed more out of their artillery systems, but everything has a downside: their artillery systems have a smaller resource. And in a protracted conflict, this indicator is also important.
In general, the main problem is in the ammunition, and not in the gun. As well as in the realization of the obvious (even for a reasonable amateur) fact that a gun is only an element of the combat system. With perfect reconnaissance, target designation, the presence of a rich and diverse range of ammunition, even not the newest artillery systems can fight quite well.

[Negro]

Quote: Illanatol

but everything has a downside: their artillery systems have a smaller resource

)))
More. Neither Msta nor Hyacinth 3000 shots pull. That is, they pull, but it’s better not to.

Quote: Illanatol

the presence of a rich and diverse range of ammunition and not the newest artillery systems can fight quite well.

)))
Yeah. Therefore, the 105mm howitzer mentioned in the article, which even saw Hitler, may well work now.

[Dimax-nemo]

3 thousand shots on what charges? On full? Let me not believe. The FH70 has 2500. This is the equivalent of Msta. And, again, what are the criteria that she "withstood" them? How much will the initial speed decrease, how much will the dispersion increase? Once, the USSR defense narrator rolled out to the Germans "I will present" for a 37-mm anti-tank gun - the gun did not show the declared armor penetration. It turned out that the German rules were less rigid than the Soviet ones.
The 105-mm howitzer, which saw Hitler, has not yet achieved anything there, and in any case, even the M30 is worse. Simply due to the fact that the projectile is one and a half times lighter.

[Negro]

Quote: Dimax-Nemo

FH70 has 2500. This is the equivalent of Msta

Exactly. And axes, unlike FN, were made a new chrome-plated barrel ten years ago.

Quote: Dimax-Nemo

And, again, what are the criteria that she "withstood" them?

It doesn't matter, you see. Considering the stories about the real state of the artillery materiel of the Russian Federation (and the state of the Soviet artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is even worse), I am not even going to delve into American standards for barrels.

Quote: Dimax-Nemo

The 105 mm howitzer that saw Hitler has not achieved anything there yet

There is too little of her.

Quote: Dimax-Nemo

even worse than the M30. Simply due to the fact that the projectile is one and a half times lighter.

But these shells are still there, unlike 122mm.

[Dimax-nemo]

There is no point in a trunk that takes 9 months to make. If accuracy is needed, guided missiles should be used, and range is needed - missiles. But you must have them. As well as means of reconnaissance and target designation. Management of all this economy. Which is also a must have. Here with it, "it seems", problems.

[Georgy Sviridov_2]

Yes, this is always a problem. The same Ukraine helps all of NATO and even more (all sorts of Australians for example), but they also lack everything. In fact, taking into account the fact that we did not prepare specifically for a major war, I am pleasantly surprised by our capabilities ...
Those de NATO members honestly say that Ukraine lost the war in the spring (although it had already been helped before), they ran out of weapons and became 100% dependent on foreign aid ...
There has been almost a year of war, and no matter how they blamed our rear servicemen, shells and cannons and tanks are all brought in from us, and all of NATO is screaming that they have devastated all the stocks ...
Yes, there were miscalculations, there were not enough small UAVs, but this is not so much a question for industry and logistics, but for those who made the decision on the appearance of the armed forces ...
The same eagles that were recognized as necessary with us are relatively dohrena, even taking into account the large combat losses.
In principle, a bunch of eagle + acacia division / msta work effectively ...
Plus, you need to understand that the Ukrainians in the army and especially in the artillery have a lot of veterans, we had practically no veterans (but we do have them in aviation), of course, due to the experience and knowledge of the terrain, the Ukrainian artillery showed good results.
Now our gunners have received combat experience and the quality of work has grown significantly.
The only thing I can’t understand is, okay, there is no interaction between the motorized rifle brigade and the artillery brigade and it does not go directly, but through the headquarters of the senior commander. Well, okay, in divisions, where each regiment is a separate military unit. But we have a lot of artillery in motorized rifle and tank brigades, it’s banal, only there is more of it than in Ukraine. There, what problems with coordination can be, I can’t imagine ...
Classics, the company works in 2 echelons. The first 2 platoons are at the forefront, the third is in reserve ... The commander of the 3rd platoon with a signalman and spotters corrects the work of artillery. Both battalion and brigade ...

[Georgy Sviridov_2]

They cannot shoot. They can only conduct counter-battery combat from deeper in the rear. The maximum that they can fire safely is the front line of defense, and then they can get them with peonies. About other means of destruction, such as rocket artillery and aviation, I am silent ...
A gunfight is not a duel when one battery stands and upsets the other while it is moving towards it...
It goes something like this... Our artillery, from a distance of 20 km, starts to work along their forward edge. Accordingly, the enemy advances his artillery at a distance of 10-15 km from the front line and begins to counteract. Our artillery changes its location, at this moment another artillery advances to a distance of 10 km from the front line (the previous one was at 20) and begins to cover the enemy artillery.
Yes, due to the greater maximum range, in theory, the Ukrainians may have the last move, but in practice, losing significantly in numbers, it is difficult to realize the last move.
Moreover, at ranges beyond 30 km, the spread of shells is huge, taking into account the lack of shells, firing at maximum ranges is rarely carried out, but our army can once again conduct "disturbing" fire at the maximum range.
In fact, only guided projectiles can effectively work at a maximum range of 30/40+ km. But there are few of them, and they need to be given target designation, which is also not always possible.
It’s one thing to give GPS on a satellite for stationary targets, but artillery, especially self-propelled artillery, needs to be highlighted ...
For example, during the siege of Osovets, the Germans used the huge Dora guns. There were only a few 152mm cannons in the fortress, but even they lost a lot in range, and most of the artillery had an even smaller caliber. And at the same time, the Russian army effectively conducted an anti-battery fight and even destroyed one Dora. Although it surpassed all Russian artillery in range by 2-3 or more times.

[Andron Evil]

I don’t really understand why the author at the beginning of the article says that 155 mm artillery of the west, with a greater range than 152 mm. Let the author know that 155 mm artillery fires shells with a range of 18-22 km ... All the rest are more expensive shells with an improved long-range form, with less explosive filling and VERY expensive! It also causes accelerated barrel wear. This is about how to fire from very specific artillery like Hyacinth and be surprised that after five hundred shots it shoots into milk ...

[Dimax-nemo]

Personally, I have other conclusions. This whole American concept of field artillery, which was thought up, it seems, more under the pressure of accountants and financiers than the generals themselves, showed its failure in the NWO. I mean the next "single caliber - unified ballistics", with which NATO specialists (and we after them) tried to solve almost ALL the tasks of field cannon artillery.

However, it turned out that there was no possibility for a long time to fight ONLY with 6 "caliber barrels with the ballistics of the best WWII ship guns or even far beyond it. Those ship guns had interchangeable liners that "lived" up to about 500 rounds. Due to modern technologies, the survivability of monoblock barrels was brought up to 2-3 thousand rounds at full charges (although this is rather optimistic), but this is not enough. 6 "shells for such ballistics are also very expensive. Excellent steel is also required so that the projectile has the proper filling of explosives and at the same time withstands overloads during the shot, and withstand tight dimensional tolerances (otherwise, there will simply be no acceptable accuracy of fire at such distances).

It's funny, but it seems that the best guns "for the main work" so far are the D-30/2S1 Gvozdika and the D-20/2S3 Akatsiya. They have a decent range compared to "classic" howitzers and acceptable barrel survivability, which can still be made more or less massively. The 122-mm projectile can be made quite effective. Add here the 120-mm Nona mortar-howitzers, and then you will get "200 barrels per km of front" and "8 thousand shells per minute" at an acceptable cost.

Machining of metals by cutting is a fairly conservative area. Everything that they have come up with new since the 70s is too expensive.

Also, the NWO confirmed a fact that was known even before the REV. For really long-term fortification, 6 "caliber is too weak. You can't do without 8" -9,5 "caliber either.

[aglet]

"There is something to think about while our gunners, without exaggeration, heroically carry out their tasks at the front"
tell the sovereign, the British do not clean their guns with bricks !!

[Alexy]

There is only one question: how could one start with such backward weapons? Reminds me of the Crimean War. Only then did they attack us.

[FPEDDI_KPYGEP]

I read the whole article, I wonder why, after a year, Russia still has hundreds of self-propelled guns in storage?

[air wolf]

The best projectile is the Lancet
Stop having panic attacks...

[kakvastam]

So that's why they don't touch railways, bridges and tunnels...

[Maverick1812]

I read about Krasnopol when I was still in the military. Now I'm 51, and I still read about him! Here is the answer to the question where the club is more authentic.

[alexey_444]

We are at war with the whole west, why marvel at the number of trunks on dill. Again, stones in our bosses, watch a cartoon of how seven hats were made from a small cloth, having the military budget that we have, what we have is good, and also the Navy, nuclear, social programs, exercises, airplanes. Yes, the Germans made 400 self-propelled guns, but how many combat-ready aircraft? Several dozen with a military budget comparable to ours. We need to really look at life, or we cut off the social sphere and spend money on the same coalition, allocating mizir and you will get a Cossack and not a Mercedes, obvious things, but again the authors cut their own (and mine too) inconsistency into generals. For some reason, when you hire conditional gypsies for repairs, only the down is waiting for them to make candy. Well, and most importantly, it is not the technical characteristics of the equipment that win, but skillful, motivated fighters.

[bone1]

The favorite trick of artillery experts is to compare firing ranges, they say, we’ll put the guns away from the enemy so that he doesn’t reach them, and we, like at a training ground, smoke and shoot, otherwise what happens at extreme ranges is where the hell you’ll end up - these are details . Now the position of the fired gun is detected instantly and with great accuracy - well, if you don’t reach it with cannon artillery - it’s like a Smerch or Hurricane - or aviation - what’s the problem?