Israeli observer criticizes the idea of ​​exonerating IDF soldiers from responsibility for war crimes

The Israeli authorities should not grant members of the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) immunity from prosecution for war crimes committed by them. Haaretz columnist Nathaniel Berman writes about this.

According to Berman, the principle of soldiers' loyalty to orders should not protect them from liability for war crimes. The observer calls it "cruel irony" that, 77 years after the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals, Israel can grant immunity to its war criminals. So Berman commented on the bill introduced in October 2022 by 23 Knesset deputies on the introduction of absolute legal immunity for any Israeli soldier or officer for actions committed during military or anti-terrorist operations.

Naturally, this bill was introduced by right-wing parties. Now that the right-wing government of Benjamin Netanyahu has come to power in the country, the chances of introducing immunity for the military are significantly increasing. Berman believes that this bill is contrary to the key principles of the Nuremberg trials. Indeed, in accordance with these principles, war crimes must be punished even when the soldiers committed them "by order" of the higher command. At one time, the Israeli Supreme Court rejected Adolf Eichmann's defense argument that he was simply following the orders of the higher leadership of the Third Reich.

However, the bill presented to the Knesset rejects these principles. It provides absolute immunity without any exceptions, and immunity is maintained even after the end of the military service of soldiers or officers. Berman calls the bill a license to commit war crimes.

Any person should know that it is forbidden to kill, beat or torture prisoners and civilians. Any person should know that it is impossible to expel civilians from their homes

writes Nathaniel Berman.

However, right-wing Israeli deputies are clearly not going to agree with such a position. They are guided by the considerations that Israel has been living in a state of incessant confrontation with the Palestinian Arabs for more than 75 years. Therefore, Israeli deputies, calling for the introduction of this immunity for military personnel, seek to increase the motivation of the IDF fighters and, accordingly, the effectiveness of military operations.

Comments

[coinsam]

But the Knesset will quietly pass such a law.
And this... No one in the world will notice! Because nothing new will happen. And before, the IDF soldier was sure that by following the order, he could not be afraid of the consequences. And before, not a single international court has prosecuted either Israeli soldiers carrying out criminal orders, or Israeli officers who gave these orders.

[Bingo]

Imagine for a second how the whole world would squeal, and the Jews would be the first, if we had prescribed by law, they say Russia is the state of the Russian people.
And in Azrailovka, this is exactly what is prescribed by law. And not the Nazis - well, almost ...

[Alt 22]

It’s just that the Israeli authorities are concerned about their people, the Russian authorities are not.
Moreover, not only Israel helps its peoples - citizenship in a simplified form on an ethnic basis is provided by Belarus, Serbia, Germany, Greece, Tajikistan, Hungary, Poland, and many other countries. And this is not considered Nazism and is not. And hint about something like this for Russians in Russia - the screech will rise first of all in it, and non-Russians and representatives of non-Slavic peoples will squeal louder than others, which is interesting.

[VORON538]

Are you a viola, as a resident of Lvov, so about Russia? Well, yes, I have no doubt that it is more visible from Ukraine! And what can you tell about your country in this regard, before spitting on someone else's? Tell us how Zelensky cares about Ukraine! You can’t discuss Putin all the same, can you brag about your own, Ukrainian, too? Come on, don’t be shy! :)))

[Shurik70]

If a person is a citizen of a country, he is a full-fledged citizen of the country, regardless of nationality, skin color or faith.
If a soldier commits a crime, he is a criminal. Regardless, he did it himself, or by order.
In Russia it is.
And where this is not so, to a greater or lesser extent, this is already Nazism. In more or less degree.

[Krasnodar]

Quote from Bingo

in Azrailovka, this is exactly what is prescribed by law. And not the Nazis - well, almost ...

Is this the only nation-state on the planet? And other nations do not have the same rights with the Jews?
As for Russia, it is high time to make such a law, and you should not worry about howling in the world, but how you live. Compared to the Arabs of Israel in particular

[Bingo]

Quote: Krasnodar

Is this the only nation-state on the planet?

Name something else. Not even the Tribolts and their non-citizens had gotten to that point. The last was the German Reich.

[Krasnodar]

Quote from Bingo

Name something else.

Greece
France
Norway
Finland
Japan
Etc.
Any representative of another nation has equal rights and obligations with the locals, becoming a citizen of the state (unlike Israel, where Arabs may not serve in the army, the deadline for them is voluntary).
In the law on the national state, the chip is different - no other state can be formed on the territory of Israel, except for the Jewish one.

[Bingo]

Quote: Krasnodar

Greece

Nonsense) In general, it does not belong to any side by nationality

Albanians (4%; including Arvanites) are a bilingual population with Greek self-consciousness that gave the country dozens of national heroes in the fight against Turks and Muslim Arvanites, “Slavic-speaking Greeks” or Macedonian Slavs (1,2%), who at the beginning of the 1,1th century were called themselves as Bulgarians and were recognized as such, Aromanians (0,8%, including Meglenites) are a bilingual group with Greek self-consciousness, which gave the country national heroes and a good half of its patrons, Orthodox gypsies (another XNUMX%).

Armenians, Serbs (0,3%), Arabs (0,3%), Jews (0,05%), etc. are officially recognized. As of 2019, according to UN estimates, 1,2 million immigrants lived in Greece and their descendants, or 11,6% of the country's population

The Greeks will just understand why Stalin called himself a Russian of Georgian nationality.
The same is true for all other countries, only a completely ignorant person could blurt out crap about Japan about a mono-ethnic state. Greetings from, for example, Okinawa - there is even a different language
By the way, for what reason should any Jew assist the special services of the village of Azrailovka, no matter what country he is a citizen of? The same Nazism - again.

[Krasnodar]

Nothing that in Israel about 25% of the population are non-Jews))
Including under 2 million Arabs and 70 thousand Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians?
These are not Okinawans and Japanese - these are generally different ethnic groups.

Quote from Bingo

By the way, for what reason should any Jew assist the special services of the village of Azrailovka,

1) Must not - fairy tales for the weak-minded;
2) Of course, the village is only the economy there is 3 times smaller than the Russian one. Even more than three. And the people live 15 times less
Other indicators - life expectancy, PPP incomes - are higher. Food safety, too. And if we compare medicine and the conventional component of the Armed Forces, the Russian Federation is 15-20 years behind. Therefore, it depends on what you consider a village.

[And Us Rat]

Quote: Krasnodar

Is this the only nation-state on the planet?

No, but this is the only Jewish one, so the lion's share of criticism in his direction is based not on the principles of justice, but on anti-Semitic bias.
There will always be attacks on Israel, primarily not for actions or positions, but for being Jews.
That is why the UN is busy persecuting Israel for something that other countries do not even pay attention to.
Genocide in Rwanda? Nobody cares. Mass killings in Mali? Don't care. War in Nagorno-Karabakh? Where is it anyway?
Israel dispersed three dozen stone-throwing imbeciles with a zlezogonka? POLANDRA!!!...

[lucul]

But the Knesset will quietly pass such a law.
And this... No one in the world will notice!

So all the key Western media have long been under the heel of the Zionists - no one will rock the boat. On the contrary, they will immediately rush to prove the "rightness" of the owners.

[And Us Rat]

Quote: lucul

So all the key Western media have long been under the heel of the Zionists

You read them first before writing such idiocy.
The persecution that Russia has undergone in the last year has been going on against Israel for more than 70 years, 24 hours, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

So all the key Western media have long been under the heel of ANTISEMITES, and have always been there.

[Krasnodar]

Quote from monetam

And before, the IDF soldier was sure that by following the order, he could not be afraid of the consequences.

Who told you this? ))
Since the beginning of the XNUMXs, video cameras have been installed on the helmets of Israeli soldiers, recording every case of the use of weapons. Knowing this, during the assault / entry into Arab houses, the Palestinians threw weapons out of their hands, sometimes with such force that they harmed them
And at checkpoints, in the presence of journalists, how they dress up ...
The world is not the way you want to see it, alas)).

[Jack sklo]

Has anyone answered for Sabra and Shatila? Some even became prime ministers.

[Krasnodar]

Quote from Jack Sklo

Did anyone answer Sabr and Shatila? Some even became prime ministers.

And for the Christian glivanseip orodki, where the Palestinians had previously massacred and worn out the Maronites, did someone answer? It seems that someone became the president of the Palestinian Autonomy.
And in Sabra and Shatila, dined by the Israelis, the Christians did the same, only without wear and tear. It's all bad, but the situation was created by the Palestinians with the Syrians.

[And Us Rat]

Quote from Jack Sklo

Has anyone answered for Sabra and Shatila?

Study the question before writing nonsense.
Responsible for Sabra and Shatila Lebanese right-wing Christian phalangists, who were not IDF soldiers, or even Israeli citizens.
The head of the Falangists convinced the Israeli officers (the headquarters of A. Sharon), who commanded the forces controlling the region, that they were capturing militants, so the Israeli command found out about this ethnic cleansing after the fact. Not a single IDF soldier was involved in this.
Moreover, ethnic cleansing was mutual, Muslims from the PLO slaughtered the families of right-wing Christian phalangists in the same way, this is blood feud.
So focus on Sabra and Shatila - LECIMERY.
But what about the Massacre at Damour?
Massacre at Tel Zaatar?
Massacre in Quarantine?

And here is another curious detail that surfaced later:
Robert Maroon Hatem, nicknamed "Cobra", at that time the bodyguard of the Falangist commander Eli Hobeika, in his book "From Israel to Damascus" claimed that the latter, being a Syrian agent, deliberately, contrary to the instructions of the Israeli military command, massacred civilians with the aim of compromise Israel, at the behest of Syrian intelligence.
And in those years he oversaw Syrian intelligence KGB of the USSR.

That is, there is a high probability that the main director of this massacre is just the KGB of the USSR!
After all, who yells "stop the thief" the loudest? That's right - the thief himself!

Quote from Jack Sklo

Some even became prime ministers.

Not a single Falangist from that massacre became the prime minister of Lebanon.
Moreover, Hobeika, the commander of the Falangists who "distinguished themselves" in Sabra and Shatila, was killed on January 25, 2002, three days before his flight to Brussels, where they wanted to build an accusation against Ariel Sharon on his testimony.
Hobeiki's lawyer spoke at a press conference, where he literally said the following verbatim:
“My client told me that he would tell the truth: Sharon did not order the massacre... The Christians entered the Palestinian refugee camps because they found out that Arafat had left hundreds of his bandits there with weapons, and they were shooting at the Phalangists and Sharon's soldiers."
The lawyer believed that Hobeika was killed because his testimony did not suit the PLO, its leader Yasser Arafat and (SUDDENLY) Syrian intelligence (or maybe the SVR RF? ). "

[Vitaly gusin]

Quote: Krasnodar

And at checkpoints, in the presence of journalists, how they dress up ...
The world is not the way you want to see it, alas)).

Take a close look at how it is directed and filmed by journalists, you will not see them in the center of the frame, but at the edges they are like flies on honey.

You have to sit down, tie the driver, play a simple thief, -
And then they will trumpet about this case on the BBC (c)

[Krasnodar]

And a girl from a family of descendants of the Bosnian SSs, who after the war dumped under the wing of the founder of their division - Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin El Husseini))
It was lucky that Jews are people and did not feed her grandfathers for the Holocaust to dogs. I am a non-Jew by Jewish law, I would feed. But - in parts.

[Shiva83483]

"WE gave you God, we will give you a king too..." is this from those Palestine? so what surprises you in the behavior of "God's chosen people, how do they heather there? Well, the fact that Nazism was blinded for their money, I think it's no secret to anyone ...

[Lech from Android.]

77 years after the Nuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals, Israel can grant immunity to its war criminals. So Berman commented on the bill introduced in October 2022 by 23 Knesset deputies on the introduction of absolute legal immunity for any Israeli soldier or officer for actions committed during military or anti-terrorist operations.

Original ...
I can imagine how an Israeli soldier breaks into a sleeping village of Arabs and begins to drive them to a mosque .. and then bulldozers demolish their buildings and blow up this very mosque under the curtain ... who knows who knows ... Jewish Orthodox, I think they are capable of this.

Sixty-five years ago, organized Jewish terrorist groups, including the Irgun and Stern gangs, attacked the village of Deir Yassin, which had about 600 inhabitants; 112 women, children, and the elderly were brutally murdered in a massacre equal to the Nazi pogrom of Jews in Babi Yar, in Kiev, Ukraine. To add abuse to the bodily injuries, some of the survivors were stripped, thrown into trucks without boards, and on display, carried in a humiliating triumphal detour of the Jewish neighborhood of Jerusalem.

https://lsvsx.livejournal.com/515593.html
Israel prefers to keep quiet about this.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: Lech from Android.

https://lsvsx.livejournal.com/515593.html
Israel prefers to keep quiet about this.

So keep quiet that even at school they teach about it))).
Everything was simpler there - with some field commanders, the elders of the village agreed on neutrality, with Irgun, who is Stern - no. They started the cleansing at night, the Arabs fired back from their houses, grenades flew there, some houses were blown up. Hence the large number of dead civilians. By morning, the people of the Haganah arrived, with whom the Arabs agreed on peace, stopped the battle, hired Arab drivers from Ramallah, and 300 surviving residents were evacuated from there to the territory controlled by Palestinian formations. In retaliation, the Arabs caught a bunch of doctors and nurses on their way to the Hadassah hospital in Jehousalim - the guards were killed, the women were raped en masse and stabbed to death, the men were burned alive in vehicles. The Jews responded by evicting the nearby Arab village of Lifta, after which the Palestinians began to flee in droves to Transjordan, Lebanon and Egypt.

[And Us Rat]

Quote: Lech from Android.

...Jewish Orthodox

THE AOI almost DO NOT SERVE.

Quote: Lech from Android.

https://lsvsx.livejournal.com/515593.html
Israel prefers to keep quiet about this.

AOI then did not exist, in Deir Yassin militants "Irgun" and "Lehi" were active, and "Lehi" had contacts with the Soviet Union and received financial support from it, moreover, in "Lehi" Soviet special services introduced their agents.

Four days later, on April 13, Arab militias, in order to to sweep, attacked medical convoy to the Hadassah hospital on Mount Scopus. As a result of the attack, seventy-nine Jews, mostly doctors and nurses, as well as one British soldier. Somehow this mass murder was not condemned or mentioned in the context of these events.



Why are you a good citizen? Here we read, and here we wrap the fish? Lecimernenko as it turns out.

[Vitaly gusin]

Quote: Lech from Android.

Israel prefers to keep quiet about this.

No, no one is keeping quiet, this fact is known.
But some are hiding the truth.
1 This was in April 1948, and the State of Israel was formed in May 1948.
2 During this period, both Arabs and Jews attacked each other.
3 Deir Yassin has become a concentration point for Arabs, including Syrians and Iraqis, planning to attack Jerusalem's western suburbs.
But they were not lucky, they were attacked.
4 And why do you keep silent about the fact that on the day of the proclamation of the formation of the state of Israel, it was attacked seven Arab countries and killed thousands of Jews. Of those countries, even today three of them dream about it - Iran, Syria, Lebanon.

[Cuban]

this Jews put their brother, the bloody executioner Zelensky, on the throne of Ukraine - because they stomped - or how he is there - does not bear any responsibility

[Bingo]

What did Biden say? The third toast to the Holocaust?

"We must testify tirelessly every day to preserve the truth and honor of the Holocaust," Biden said.

[Leader_Barmaleev]

My friends, you may not believe me, but there is NO LEGAL CONCEPT OF CRIMINAL ORDER in any legislation, in any code of any country! This concept is used only by journalists and every single corrupt "human rights activists". The very concept of military service implies the execution of the commander's order without reflection and reflection. A soldier who has NOT carried out an order must be punished, and a soldier who has complied with an order must have absolute immunity from the consequences of his actions, no matter how monstrous they may seem later. Otherwise it will not be an army. Responsibility for orders can only be borne by the high command and political leadership of the LOSING PARTY, since the winners are not judged, because they are the very good that ... well, you understand.

[lucul]

THERE IS NO LEGAL CONCEPT OF A CRIMINAL ORDER!

Come on - see the targeted execution of civilians. After all, the military fights only with the military - it’s written in everyone’s military charter.

[Leader_Barmaleev]

Come on - see the targeted execution of civilians

And now, without emotions and other rattling - in which document is this recorded as a legal norm? And what is the punishment for violating it? And really someone was punished for the bombing of Belgrade? Well, find me at least in one charter that nonsense that you are trying to rub into me completely without evidence. And purely for reference - there is only one rule in war - THERE ARE NO RULES IN WAR!

[lucul]

And now, without emotions and other rattling - in which document is this recorded as a legal norm? And what is the punishment for violating it?
And purely for reference - there is only one rule in war - THERE ARE NO RULES IN WAR!

So you justify the Holocaust?

[Leader_Barmaleev]

So you justify the Holocaust?

My friend, in a decent society it is customary to immediately hit the head with a hand for such questions, but since you are cowardly hiding behind network anonymity, I will politely answer you first that I not only do not justify him, but also genetically hate him and, if possible, punish him in the measure of their capabilities of all who, even purely speculative and hypothetically, are looking for meaning in it. Now I will give you a less polite hint - do not confuse the ass with a finger - at all times the winners judged the losers. And at all times it turned out that only the vanquished committed war crimes - what do you think, if Hitler had whitewashed someone would answer for the gas chambers and concentration camps? So do not make yourself a fairy girl, but accept reality as it is.

[lucul]

My friend, in a decent society, it is customary to immediately hit the head with a hand for such questions, but since you are cowardly hiding behind network anonymity

Clearly - the usual chutzpah, why am I not surprised .....

[Krasnodar]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

THERE IS NO LEGAL CONCEPT OF A CRIMINAL ORDER

There is in the Israeli army. You can not fulfill it, you will go to the tribunal for this, where you can prove your case.

[Leader_Barmaleev]

you will go to the tribunal for this, where you can prove your case.

And what were there? And then go and laugh with NO CONSEQUENCES? Here also it is not necessary to confuse theoretical nuances with empirical experience.

[And Us Rat]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

And what, were there such?

Fortunately, as long as those who are able to issue a criminal order do not get into command positions in the IDF, personnel filters work properly.
But yes, in the charter of military service, in Hebrew and white, it is clearly stated:

There are 2 gradations of illegitimate orders:

1. Illegal (does not entail death and injury to innocents) - is obliged to execute, and then report to the officer who ordered the military police.

2. Criminal (murder and mutilation of the innocent) - is obliged to refuse to execute and remove the officer from command.

[Krasnodar]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

And what, were there such?

It happened more than once. True, it was more about military expediency - the most striking example is the arbitrariness of General Sharon in 1973. He did not obey the order, he worked effectively, he was not even tried.

[Silver99]

This has already happened in history, one possessed corporal also removed all responsibility and morality from his thugs (((((

[Non-fighter]

Mossad has been working like this for a long time, they just decided to make the secret clear. If my memory serves me right, an innocent person was killed during the murder of the terrorists who killed the Israeli athletes in Munich. He just looked like one of the terrorists. And this is with "address" cleaning.
Consider the assassinations of Iranian scientists. In fact - state terrorism. And NOBODY thought to bring charges of state terrorism.
Yes, and from the rostrum of the UN, the representative of Israel openly said - if someone threatens our existence, then he will not live.

[Leader_Barmaleev]

if someone threatens our existence, then he will not live.

And this is the only correct position.

[And Us Rat]

Quote: Not the fighter

Mossad has been doing this for a long time

EVERYONE works like this, and the SVR, and the GRU and the CIA, and the SBU and Mi-6, and the ISI, and even the intelligence of the most provincial Papuan.

Quote: Not the fighter

And NOBODY thought to bring charges of state terrorism.

To be charged, you must show weighty evidence, and the secret services rarely leave them.
And making an unfounded hype without hard evidence is a shot in the foot, which will complicate the life of your own special services in similar situations, and reputational damage.

[ratoborets]

It's like they've been judged before.
But here, as in the law recognizing Israel as a Jewish state (by ethnicity), they want to emphasize and legitimize.

[sanik2020]

Mankind has come up with many conventions and rules of civilized methods of war, but it is not easy to observe and control them, and it is not even desirable. It turned out to be easier to remain a savage, I do what I want, I don’t answer for anything. It became the motto of the "civilized, democratic" world.

[decimalegio]

It is true that war brings out the best and the worst in people. Whenever it comes to carrying out apparently illegitimate orders, the bloody beast on duty stands up ready to shout that there are no rules in the War and that you have soldiers, everything must be allowed and allowed. Stealing, raping, killing children, maybe having fun with a bayonet in order to disembowel prisoners, if only it was ordered by the authorities. These most bloodthirsty beasts are the first to complain if this remedy is applied to them, their family members or their friends. A soldier must refuse to carry out a knowingly illegal order. Not to mention rape and torture, which is obviously part of the life of a bloody beast. Everyone has the life they deserve. And according to your reasoning, if the Minister of Defense orders a coup, everyone should obey?????

Article 1349 (Italian Military Regulations):

............
A soldier who receives an order that is clearly directed against state institutions, or the execution of which in any case constitutes a clear crime, is obliged to disobey the order and inform his superiors as soon as possible.

[decimalegio]

""""" Not all management orders can be binding. We are talking about obviously illegal orders that subordinates not only are not required to follow, but should not be followed.

For example, the head of the department for combating economic crimes instructed his subordinate: to accept gratitude in cash (in the amount of 5 thousand rubles) from sellers of non-certified alcoholic products so as not to start a case against them. And transfer the received money to him.""""""