Military Review

We need a serious setback

104
We need a serious setbackFormer Chief of Staff of the Ground Forces sharply criticizes the work of Anatoly Serdyukov

VIEW: Yuri Dmitrievich, what did you think when you learned about the resignation of Serdyukov on Monday?

Yuri Bukreev: The decision on the withdrawal of Serdyukov overripe long ago. No he is not an expert, he absolutely has no idea about what he was appointed to lead. He came to destroy the system. And he achieved it. The army is in terrible condition.

VIEW: What, in your opinion, can be expected in connection with the appointment of Sergei Shoigu to this position?

YB: It is difficult to expect that the political leadership of the country would appoint some completely unfamiliar person for them, since there are obviously many unresolved problems, there are some “tails” that need to be cleaned. Maybe it was rightly said by the president that during the investigation into these unpleasant cases in the Ministry of Defense, the minister should be removed in order to complete the matter and study the situation.

But still, Shoigu is also not a military man, and it’s strange to say that he was in the Emergencies Ministry, he was wearing a uniform. So what if the army general - and there are army generals in the police. This is a completely different work specifics. It is one thing to extinguish forest fires, to deal with disasters, earthquakes. Yes, they need organizational skills, command. However, the service in the Ministry of Defense and the General Staff has a peculiarity: here you need to think about perspective all the time and look to the future for 10, 15, 20 years. But for this you need to know how the armed forces are generally built and developed, according to what laws, you need to know the laws of war, the fundamentals of hostilities, the basics of preparing operations.

This is another area of ​​knowledge, and, of course, you simply cannot come to it with the baggage that Shoigu has. But as an intermediate figure for a certain period, in order to stabilize the situation, I think he will approach both the political leadership of the country and the philistine agree with him. Since the bench in the Ministry of Defense is emasculated, and where is there now to find a person who thinks, able to lead the ministry and the General Staff? An urgent need to create a reserve of officials. They need to be taught and now there is no place to teach!

In the future, you need to find a professional for this position. Or, as has been done in many civilized countries, divide responsibilities between the civilian defense minister and the General Staff. A layman cannot fully control the Armed Forces! He can do this in part - to control the budget, the military-industrial complex, etc. But a professional must manage the construction and development of the Armed Forces and be responsible for the construction of the Armed Forces.

VIEW: How much time, in your opinion, is it necessary for Shoigu to get up to speed?

YB: From three to five years. The first year is nothing at all; it will only begin to figure out, fly around, get acquainted. In the second year will begin to understand something. The third to fifth years will be the most productive. It can also be left for this term, but then, as mentioned above, it is necessary to divide the functional duties between the civilian minister and the General Staff, as was done in a number of Western countries.

VIEW: And how will the military perceive the new minister? As far as I remember, the arrival of Serdyukov from the very beginning caused bewilderment among the troops.

YB: How did Serdyukov start? He immediately began to trade, to disperse the academy, led and appointed his people to the ministry. If Shoigu will repeat to him ... It has already been announced that the reforms will be continued, deepened. There is no need to continue anything, on the contrary, we need a serious rollback.

If we talk about Shoigu, the officers will perceive his appointment as a continuation of the policy of "betting on civilians." For the rest, everything will depend on what steps he takes.

VIEW: At what first steps can he enlist the support of the officer corps, in your opinion?

YB: Firstly, if he restores the main commands of the branches of the Armed Forces. Now they are destroyed. In each, 90 people are completely powerless, worthless controls.

Secondly, if he drives away from there these women, incompetent, bastards, who hate the officers, with whom it is impossible to solve a single question. Imagine, now, as they say, in the breaks at the collegium of the department there is a queue for women's toilets more than for men’s. Women's battalion of some kind.

And, thirdly, if he restores military education. Now it is destroyed. Since September 1, all the academies have switched to a ten-month course. Exactly such a period was given to the factory schools in the post-war period, when they were taught for the most primitive specialties - locksmith, bricklayer, etc. Now there will be ten months to teach the officer to work in the operational and strategic levels of management. And in the Academy of the General Staff taught for ten months, and in ordinary academies.

If Shoigu takes at least these three steps, he will immediately be supported.

Much depends on who remains in the General Staff. If the General Staff continues to hang out like this, nothing good will come of it. I do not think that Makarov (the chief of the General Staff, Army General Nikolai Makarov - approx. VIEW), a military man, made such decisions. They twisted his arms and forced him to do what he did. He is not a strong-willed person, weak-willed, could not resist, was afraid to leave and did what this minister said.

VIEW: Who should the new minister rely on? In recent years, very many officers have been dismissed from the ministry and the General Staff.

YB: This is the worst problem. Now the affairs and the scale of personalities in the military leadership are incommensurable with those that existed before the nineties. There is no such level of people as then. This is largely due to Serdyukov, he dismissed all the military. I served in the Turkestan military district for a long time and all the time I remember one local proverb. Uzbeks say: “Ishak, who has walked in the shade, will never work in the sun”. The main thing is that the chief of the General Staff should get such that he has his point of view.

VIEW: Do you think Makarov will not remain in his current position?

YB: In theory, it should be removed immediately. He had to know everything, inform the leadership. With his position he has many sources, he probably knew about these outrages. But he "lay down" under Serdyukov and carried out his will. He should have known that corruption, theft, and fraud are flourishing, that housing for officers is not built in the places where they serve, but where it is necessary that the academies are being driven out of the capital — there is no one to protect Moscow now — and are being transferred to peripheral cities. He had to ask for an audience with the president, he was the second person in the Ministry of Defense, he appointed his president. And he had to clearly report this situation.

Makarov's wines as a military man and that everything was destroyed during the reform. He had to resist. What, he does not know that divisions can not be transformed into brigades on our vast territory? That the brigade is two and a half times less in combat capability, that it cannot carry with it supplies, ammunition? He does not know that now they are talking all the time about constant-readiness brigades, and there they serve for one year, they cannot be trained for a year, and the brigades are formally listed as combat-ready, but are soldiers not really trained?

VIEW: In connection with the appointment of Shoigu to the post of head of the Ministry of Defense, opinions have already been voiced that he has practically created a working structure.

YB: This is not true. Until the middle of the 90s, we had a powerful civil defense system, which, as a rule, was headed by one of the commanders of the district forces with the rank of deputy defense minister for civil defense. And this structure had its troops. What is the difference from the current sham Emergencies Ministry - Civil Defense had mechanized battalions, regiments and brigades armed with cranes, excavators, earth-moving machines, etc. They were fully staffed with soldiers, sergeants, officers, were prepared, had to speak on any team and coped well with their affairs. After 91, it all fell apart.

The Ministry of Emergency Situations has a feature that the average man does not know about. Why I know well, because when I headed the Main Headquarters of the Ground Forces, the Main Command of the Ground Forces was entrusted with the task of the country's territorial defense. Periodically, we developed a plan of territorial defense of the country and every year conducted exercises with two or three districts. We have always attracted regional structures of the MES. My deputy, Lieutenant-General Mikhail Somov, then went to Shoigu as deputy engineer and equipment for these same mechanized battalions, which were transferred to him from the Armed Forces. And when he went to check them, he was horrified: they were all dismantled, sold out and disfigured.
To date, there are no troops in the Ministry of Emergency Situations. There are only regional offices. That is, there is a general in every subject of the Federation - there are so many generals there, that all the norms are exceeded - which has nothing behind the soul. They are all based on the resources of municipal and local self-government bodies, and the general only commands and rules. Just a very well developed system of popularization of the Ministry of Emergency Situations and Shoigu. Last year, ten days of television, the tambourine was one and the same: the Emergencies Ministry sends assistance to Serbia. They say a month what Shoigu is ordered, and they are bringing a thousand blankets. It is nothing, it is a drop in the sea. The same with their "Centrospas". "The earthquake," Centrospas "flew two IL-76." And its capacity is 15-20 units. “These are rescue dogs” - they will show one dog. I already recognize these dogs by their faces. A dozen dogs spinning in front of the camera, no one got anything. Thousands of people are killed, one, two, three saved. They will say: "The IL-76 plane brought a wounded boy to Moscow for an operation." On the roads, hundreds of people die every day. Why show this boy? Yes, because there is nothing more to show.

To say that Shoigu created something from scratch, it is impossible, and this was not close. He did not stand at the origins, everything was created for him.

VIEW: Nevertheless, can his previous ministerial experience be in demand in the military?

YB: His experience as an organizer and leader is useful if Shoygu is an honest and decent person to the depths of his soul. If he is honest with himself, he will defend state interests, with his experience in leading people, he will be able to do something in the next three to five years.
Author:
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http://www.vz.ru/society/2012/11/6/605924.html
104 comments
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  1. Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 7 November 2012 07: 26
    +11
    Serdyukov is half the problem, there you need to disperse all the Caudle that Serdyuchka first and Makarov with his retinue on kicks.
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 7 November 2012 08: 38
      +10
      It has already been stated that the reforms will be continued and deepened.

      That is, instead of radish there will be horseradish
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 7 November 2012 08: 49
        +6
        Quote: Vadivak
        reforms will be continued, deepened

        Hi Vadim, the main thing is not COMPLETED
        Quote: Vadivak

        That is, instead of radish there will be horseradish

        If someone expected that with the advent of Shoigu everything will change radically, let it not happen. Someone will be fired, someone will be appointed and an ordinary routine will follow.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 7 November 2012 09: 10
          +8
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Somehow they will dismiss, someone to appoint and the usual routine will come.


          Hi Sasha, I don’t think there will be any applicants from Shoigu as commander, they will probably change (put relatives) in warm places Well, as in this case

          Director of the Emergency Psychological Aid Center of the Ministry of Emergency Situations Yulia Shoigu was awarded a medal of the Order of Merit for the Fatherland, II degree

          now read and be surprised how without the knowledge of the language the service she led managed

          “The work of psychologists of the Emergencies Ministry of Russia in China has caused a public outcry and great interest among the Chinese side.” These are psychologists and not military translators, but Leontiev says however ......
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 7 November 2012 09: 15
            +7
            Quote: Vadivak
            Director of the Emergency Psychological Aid Center of the Ministry of Emergency Situations Yulia Shoigu was awarded a medal of the Order of Merit for the Fatherland, II degree

            I recall the words of one of our tendem. When a revolution (another) took place in Kyrgyzstan, one of our leaders complained about the family of power and, moreover, spoke about the inadmissibility of such things. Now I'm sitting and thinking, but for whom then he said it what
            1. military
              military 7 November 2012 09: 35
              +2
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              one of our leaders complained about the family of power and, moreover, spoke about the inadmissibility of such things. Now I'm sitting and thinking, and for whom then he said it

              perhaps just like that ... just to not be silent ... feel
              he then did not assume that the electorate is accessible to associativity of thinking ....
          2. stas52
            stas52 7 November 2012 13: 17
            0
            Here is more detailed here:
            http://www.election2012.ru/reports/1/9.html
      2. baltika-18
        baltika-18 7 November 2012 09: 35
        +11
        [quote = Vadivak] Vadivak Today, 08:38 ↑ new 2 
        It has already been stated that the reforms will be continued and deepened.

        That is, instead of radish there will be horseradish
        Shoigu will finish what Serdyukov did not finish. He already wrote that this year he became a knight of the Maltese knight's cross, that is, he stood on a par with such figures as Berezovsky, Borodin, Burbulis, Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Lesin, Lisovsky, Shaimiev, Shakhrai, Yumash
        ev, Yastrzhembsky. All these personalities each at one time were also awarded the Maltese cross. Remember how each of them became famous on our sinful land.
        1. s1н7т
          s1н7т 7 November 2012 22: 42
          +2
          Baltika, although you are hotter than reasonable, here I agree with you. I suddenly remembered the 95th. A guest from Afghanistan arrives to the customer of our work). A certain Sir John C. Represented the CIA in Afghanistan. Why "sir"? Knight of Malta. And those who created Unity and United Russia were the customers of the work then. And Gazprom financed - the national property, damn it. So yeah, it's a label, I guess.
    2. Deniska999
      Deniska999 7 November 2012 08: 39
      +2
      Yes, many specifically steal there. In my opinion, everyone who is caught in this must be against the wall. Not sparing. The rest should see that we must serve honestly, especially in such an important body for the state.
      1. Armata
        Armata 7 November 2012 09: 09
        +5
        Greetings to all.
        It seems to me that it is necessary to take away the function of appointment to posts from the Moscow Region and create some alternative method such as elections or appointing a group of third-party departments indirectly connected with the Moscow Region, and leave only the leadership and control functions of these people for Shaygu. And this Kodla is clearly dispersed; these Malvins should not be commanded by defense, but by children in kindergarten.
        1. v53993
          v53993 7 November 2012 11: 57
          +4
          And this Kodla is clearly dispersed; these Malvins should not be commanded by defense, but by children in kindergarten.


          Do you feel sorry for the children?
        2. s1н7т
          s1н7т 7 November 2012 22: 54
          0
          Quote: Mechanic
          it is necessary to take away the function of appointment to posts from the Moscow Region and create an alternative method of election type

          You need to turn on your head to start. And then it becomes clear that in a system that has been tested over the years, nothing needs to be changed. It is necessary to appoint a specialist. Well, or change the whole system at once. This is, like, how the reform of the Ministry of Internal Affairs was laughing That is, what Serdyukov did not steal will be written off by Shoigu. And these "Malvin" in kindergarten - can you imagine the consequences ?!
    3. military
      military 7 November 2012 09: 22
      +3
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      Serdyukov is half the problem

      on Shoigu would become the second half of the same problem ... recourse
      1. Col.
        Col. 7 November 2012 10: 19
        +6
        Quote: military
        on would Shoigu become the second half of the same problem

        Most likely it will. Purely human, for example, he impresses me. It creates the impression of a decent person. But a good person is not a profession! I need a professional, the general is right! Few people remember that at the time, Yeltsin made Shoigu from the starling of the reserve immediately Major General. What merit? For loyalty to the course and the ruling clan? If so, then one should not expect drastic changes from him. And the general determined the primary tasks correctly. I would not even put the problem of the revival of military education first place, while the old professional cadres are still alive and efficient. Otherwise, if the continuity in the faculty of the academies is interrupted, the military education system will be completely destroyed!
        1. Kaa
          Kaa 7 November 2012 10: 52
          0
          Quote: Colonel
          I need a professional, the general is right! Few remember that at the time, Yeltsin made Shoigu from the starling of the reserve immediately Major General.

          It is difficult to judge what will happen, here you need to look at a crystal ball and reread the quatrains of Nostradamus, not to forget Vanga. On the one hand - "not a professional" - let's remember DF Ustinov, he was also, to put it mildly, not a combatant, but he left an army that is still enough. On the other hand - at least, it has now been officially recognized that in the army - "an emergency situation" - that is what we have the Minister of Emergency Defense. "You will recognize them by their fruits ..."
          1. Vadivak
            Vadivak 7 November 2012 11: 07
            +5
            Quote: Kaa
            let's remember D.F. Ustinov, was also, to put it mildly, not a combatant,


            Delivered + even though Ustinov was the real builder, my grandfather in the same army fought with the Basmachi. Well, the People’s Commissar of Arms at the temporary detention center knows if it’s worth
            1. Kaa
              Kaa 7 November 2012 11: 32
              0
              Quote: Vadivak
              Well, the People’s Commissar of Arms at the temporary detention center knows if it’s worth

              I am with both hands for Ustinov, but: "1922 - Volunteered for the Red Army (ChON detachments) in Samarkand. 1923 - Volunteered for the 12th Turkestan Regiment. Participated in the hostilities with the Basmachs. from locksmith to plant director. In November 1923 he joined the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks). 1927-1927 - locksmith at the Balakhna paper mill, then at a factory in Ivanovo-Voznesensk. In autumn 1929 he became a student of the mechanical faculty of Ivanovo-Voznesensk Polytechnic Institute He worked as a secretary of the Komsomol organization, was a member of the party bureau of the institute.In 1929, the group in which D. Ustinov studied was sent in full force to Leningrad to staff the newly created Military Mechanical Institute (now BSTU Voenmekh named after D.F. Ustinov)
              1934 - successful completion of the Leningrad Military Mechanical Institute. Since 1934 - engineer, head of the bureau of operation and experimental work at the Leningrad Artillery Research Marine Institute. Since 1937 - Design Engineer, Deputy Chief Designer, Director of the Bolshevik Leningrad Plant.
              You must admit that the beginning of the journey, too ... is not marshal’s, who just didn’t fight in the civilian, but its end is quite ... But Shoigu - Minister of Emergency Situations in the emergency 90s - zero - also a mark ...
          2. Fox 070
            Fox 070 7 November 2012 11: 21
            +6
            Quote: Kaa
            let's remember D.F. Ustinov, was also, to put it mildly, not a combatant,

            I knew Dmitry Fedorovich personally (he was still a "green" lieutenant, he was lucky) and I can say that he was a real marshal, knowledgeable, excellently versed in the construction of the Armed Forces and a very thoughtful leader who cares for his country, and not for his pocket.
            1. s1н7т
              s1н7т 7 November 2012 23: 03
              0
              Quote: Fox 070
              I personally knew Dmitry Fedorovich

              However! I’m not personally acquainted, but I respect. Marshal of the old school, probably. Called upon him.
        2. Fox 070
          Fox 070 7 November 2012 10: 52
          +2
          Quote: Colonel
          What merit? For loyalty to the course and the ruling clan?

          For active assistance in the shooting of the "White House".
          1. Vadivak
            Vadivak 7 November 2012 11: 11
            +5
            Quote: Fox 070
            For active assistance in the shooting of the "White House".


            Papa Kuzhuget Sergeyevich Shoigu, nee Shoigu Kuzhuget - worked all his life in party-Soviet bodies and retired as first deputy chairman of the Council of Ministers of the Tuva Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic. close friend of EBN
            1. Fox 070
              Fox 070 7 November 2012 11: 34
              +3
              Quote: Vadivak
              close friend of EBN

              Hmm, intergenerational succession? It’s not bad in itself, but it would be better to direct it in a different direction - the price wouldn’t exist for SUCH "protoktsionism". And so it turns out a kind of nomenclature "get-together". However, nothing new and surprising, remember the Soviet comedy "You are for me - I for you"? Everything is in the best traditions of this film: you give me an act of acceptance of treatment facilities - I'll give you a boat, a garage for it and a new fence ...
              1. bask
                bask 7 November 2012 12: 58
                +2
                Greetings to Fox. Where did I sell what I saw? One was astonished and wary. The GDP proposal was made as if unexpected. Even under JV Stalin they took the time to think, I can handle it ??? And here, without blinking an eye, yes ... .And some kind of deliberation. Why such confidence, he is not a regular military man ...
                1. Fox 070
                  Fox 070 7 November 2012 14: 15
                  +3
                  Quote: bask
                  ? And here without blinking an eye, yes ...

                  Hello bask! Was on vacation, taking a break from "business of the righteous."
                  I think the appointment is political and agreed in advance. I perceive him with very cautious optimism (POSSIBLY something will change for the better), although I do not cherish any special hopes, there are too many "dark" spots in Shoigu's past, which characterize him not in the best way. This is a dizzying rise in rank, and his participation in the shooting of the "White House", and massonization, and the receipt of the Order of Malta ... They are no longer hiding, believing that the power belongs to them. Well, so far, this is true, and then we'll see. NO LONGER WAIT.
                2. s1н7т
                  s1н7т 7 November 2012 23: 10
                  0
                  Quote: bask
                  . The GDP proposal was made as if unexpected.

                  "As if" is the key point) Timakova said that the approvals dragged on for a long time (almost a month). And the "Oboronservis case" appeared in the media when the decision was made. And the "confidence" is because to continue the "reform" you do not need to be anyone. You just have to be your own laughing
            2. Col.
              Col. 7 November 2012 14: 43
              +4
              Quote: Vadivak
              For active assistance in the shooting of the "White House".

              And for this too: An ardent admirer of the bloody Baron Ungern, a supporter of the creation of the so-called. "death squads" in the 90s - Shoigu with personal protection
          2. Col.
            Col. 7 November 2012 14: 37
            0
            Quote: Fox 070
            For active assistance in the shooting of the "White House".

            And for that too:
    4. vezunchik
      vezunchik 7 November 2012 10: 20
      -1
      And what did DAM not know ????
    5. starshina78
      starshina78 7 November 2012 19: 58
      +1
      Is it really not clear that Shoigu is a forced appointment. Serdyukov had to be removed, only the child does not understand that if they steal and the minister does not know about it, this is a bad minister, and in the current situation everything suggests that if Serdyukov did not know, then he guessed, but did not take action, and this again characterizes him as a bad minister. Yes, and the figure of Serdyukov became odious, both in the army and the navy, and among the people. And it had to be removed, otherwise Putin would not have been understood. And Shoigu, that Shoigu, a personal friend, proven, and no one else. There are no personnel. Friends ran out, relatives, probably, too. The rest were either dispersed or fled themselves. So the principle worked here -: "There is no fish, and cancer is a fish!"
    6. s1н7т
      s1н7т 7 November 2012 22: 33
      0
      Pi-pez, naive laughing Serdyukov and Makarov fulfilled the will "from above". And until it turned out that Serdyukov "threw" someone's daughter there, and even stole in a stupid way ... Otherwise, he would have reformed and reformed!
  2. bask
    bask 7 November 2012 07: 32
    +6
    That the heart was removed ,,, rejoicing and delight ,,, Six months and it will be clear. Our rejoicing was in vain, yes or no .. Shoigu is a good organizer. But as a politician, his statements to the patriots are alarming. What army he will create. For hatching external aggression or to suppress in Russia. The first step Shoigu should be the figure of a new beginning ..gen .. staff ... Then everything will become more clear ...
    1. s1н7т
      s1н7т 7 November 2012 23: 14
      0
      Quote: bask
      What army will he create

      What Putin needs, that will be. What kind of kindergarten?
  3. erased
    erased 7 November 2012 07: 42
    +9
    The state has a systemic crisis. Even generous investments in the army do not mean much. As long as there is no will at the top to make the country strong and understanding how to achieve this, the army, like the country, will fall further into the abyss.
    Officers and soldiers (in the majority) honestly do their duty, but little depends on them. Corruption and betrayal of the highest echelons nullify all efforts. And that's bad.
    1. vezunchik
      vezunchik 7 November 2012 10: 23
      +2
      Crisis Management! The tops can not control in a new way, and the bottoms can still live in the old ....
      1. Fox 070
        Fox 070 7 November 2012 10: 54
        +2
        Quote: vezunchik
        and the lower classes can still live on the old ....

        And most importantly, they really want this.
  4. Lavrik
    Lavrik 7 November 2012 07: 53
    0
    Quote: bask
    The first step Shoigu should be the figure of the new beginning ..gen..staff ...
    That's right. And then a clear distribution of responsibilities between the civil defense and military NHS.
  5. Goga
    Goga 7 November 2012 08: 00
    +5
    Well, as always, the former general is preparing for the last war, but with whom, with NATO? Neither they will pull out the big war now, much less we will pull out, hence the question - why, then, the general’s return to the big army, proposed by the general?
    It's another matter, about military training and about the NGSH everything is said correctly and about the "Babskiy" battalion in the Ministry of Defense too - but here I think the SCS will carry out a "dry cleaning", no matter what they say about him, but with a heart he had no friendship at all, so more with his "team" - we'll wait ...
    1. aksakal
      aksakal 7 November 2012 08: 15
      -8
      Quote: Gogh
      Well, as always, the former general is preparing for the last war, but with whom, with NATO? Neither they will pull out the big war now, much less we will pull out, hence the question - why, then, the general’s return to the big army, proposed by the general?

      - Those who served in the 80s already saw that the USSR did not draw a large army. The matter was further aggravated by the fact that the army was purely prone, and every two years, using a poor technique, it learned to drive, shoot, use, in short, a new generation. Given the abundance of this technique, can you imagine what its condition was in reality? As a child, I loved the army, dreamed of going to serve in it, and having served on such a dead technique, I decided to serve. Sorry for it, I didn’t have to serve, but to fuck, or rather, under it, day and night. Although interce to military equipment remained. Well, okay, distracted.
      Someone from the members of the forum was surprised - why does this or that bump serve, then everything is all right there while he is serving? And as he leaves (or leaves him) in retirement, right there where he served, it turns out, it sucks? Wasn't that crap with him? More often than not, if you look closely and compare, then the very heyday of this "sludge" was precisely in this criticism. And examples of this are innumerable. That Nemtsov was prime minister in the 90s. Or here's the author of this article. Minus, I did not like his opinion. Although many of the things he said sound right, well, many here, even non-professionals sometimes say the right things. Says the right things and делать the right things are not the same thing. And in this article even the right things are said quite a bit and fragmentarily.
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 7 November 2012 10: 45
        +2
        zamusnovuvali something -)))))). But is there anyone who served in those years or even served? Was there a completely new technique right in the USSR? I served and I can provide a photo of the killed KrAZ already in 1967 (for transporting S-200 air defense missiles to a combat position) of the year of release and I served in 1987. This KrAZ drank blood to me, why should I write that everything was okay in the USSR? I won’t - it wasn’t okay, I sucked and I can prove it. And a photo of the so-called NZ (NZ! Deciphered as an inviolable reserve! Do you understand what this is about?) Where these KrAZs seem to be inviolable, there is one frame from them. Some details and I climbed into this NZ and slamla - of course, with the agreement of all the commanders, but because there was no way out - either the KRAZ is mine, the acting one, is there at all, or it at least somehow travels and performs combat missions. Do you think this situation - I repeat, is the general situation in the troops of the USSR (with the possible exception of units somewhere in the GSVG and exponential exhibition units like the Kantemirov’s division) normal? Consider it further -)))))))))))))). The only thing I agree with is that in the 90s it was even worse. But I did not serve in the 90s and was not particularly interested in the army - I survived myself. So, to my minuses, it would be nice to object, like, it seemed to me the old KrAZ, in fact it was new and did not break. I look forward to your objection. On business
        1. Fox 070
          Fox 070 7 November 2012 11: 01
          +7
          Quote: aksakal
          This KrAZ drank blood to me, why should I write that everything was okay in the USSR?

          And in the USSR there wasn’t everything OK, but defense capability does not boil down to one killed KrAZ (or a dozen - it doesn’t matter), it is the general state of the Armed Forces, the preparedness of officer personnel, the constant updating of military equipment and weapons, the availability of powerful rear support, etc. . In the USSR it was all, including cropped units, providing quick deployment in case of hostilities. Where is it all now? request
          1. aksakal
            aksakal 7 November 2012 11: 30
            -1
            Quote: Fox 070
            officer training

            - I agree. The officers were pros, I have no complaints against those officers.
            Quote: Fox 070
            the presence of powerful rear support, etc. In the USSR it was all, including cropped units, providing quick deployment in case of hostilities.

            - perhaps.
            Quote: Fox 070
            constant updating of military equipment

            - I was swept first in training in Sverdlovsk (now Yekaterinburg), then near Barnaul, then near Krasnoyarsk (the so-called Krasnoyarsk-45), and in the end - Irkutsk, the famous Red Barracks. And in all was complete ... oops with technology. I don’t know where you saw it. There were deliveries of new equipment, in Barnaul they began to change the S-200 to the S-300 (based on the new KrAZ), I was not lucky. I couldn’t shoot from this complex at Sary-Shagan, but on the whole there was already such a tendency then, and distinct - it was hard for the Soviet Union to pull such a huge army, really hard. Gorby, of course, you bastard, I agree, but his fault is not that he wanted and the Union collapsed, but in an illiterate and captive, but simply mediocre government, and the USSR had problems in the 80s, anyway.
            1. Fox 070
              Fox 070 7 November 2012 11: 52
              +3
              Quote: aksakal
              it was hard for the Soviet Union to pull such a huge army, really hard.

              So nobody argues about this! I’m just saying that in those not simple conditions the army was taken care of and it was not necessary to break the aircraft support system, but only a bit to fix it (they still return to the old standards).
              Quote: aksakal
              in training in Sverdlovsk (now Yekaterinburg), then near Barnaul, then near Krasnoyarsk (the so-called Krasnoyarsk-45), and in the end - Irkutsk, the famous Red Barracks.

              You probably remember that the new equipment was received FIRST only by the districts located in the "dangerous" directions, ie. the western districts of the country, and the new air defense systems went beyond the Urals to cover industrial facilities of varying degrees of secrecy.
              Quote: aksakal
              Irkutsk, the famous Red Barracks.

              I live not far away. good
              1. aksakal
                aksakal 7 November 2012 14: 24
                0
                Quote: Fox 070
                You probably remember that the new equipment was received FIRST only by the districts located in the "dangerous" directions, ie. the western districts of the country, and the new air defense systems went beyond the Urals to cover industrial facilities of varying degrees of secrecy.

                - I agree.
                Quote: Fox 070
                I live not far away.

                - super! And I really liked the city. Beautiful and harsh.
                Quote: Fox 070
                So nobody argues about this! I’m just saying that in those not simple conditions the army was taken care of and it was not necessary to break the aircraft support system, but only a bit to fix it (they still return to the old standards).

                - Not everything is so simple here, Fox. But this is a difficult argument. Serdyukov, cheers were removed, his harem and his penchant for Western technology - this is what infuriated.
                On the other hand, I have an old friend - a military officer in the Russian army. First, according to Serdyukov, he was fired into the reserve with a pension of 40 thousand, then suddenly he was again called up and put back to his old place, but the pension was left for him, not canceled. Now he has both a pension and the salary that he received earlier. And 45 years are not yet. It turns out more than a hundred thousand - really, on Skype his face was even rounded, the belly appeared. If Serdyukov’s minus is for this, then I agree - the officer must be angry, hungry and smelly, then it will be good to fight. Outsourcing in the Army is also Serdyukov minus. Now the soldiers, instead of taking revenge on the parade ground, march more and song songs, in general, have fun.
                Well, in general, in the army - when I served, I did not leave the feeling of such heavyness of it, of impossibility. I don’t know how it is now, but many experts are inclined to think that, on the whole, the army has become more mobile and more combat-ready (in the narrow sense in terms of bringing a particular unit to the state of warfare) as a result of the reform.
                I repeat, I am against Serdyukov and shared a common opinion here, but all the same I wrote justice - it is not so simple. Your opinion is interesting.
                1. Fox 070
                  Fox 070 7 November 2012 14: 58
                  +6
                  Quote: aksakal
                  It turns out more than a hundred thousand - really,

                  So I say that the support system was returned to the old one, but the merit in this was not Taburetkin, but rather the president.
                  Quote: aksakal
                  the officer must be angry, hungry and smelly,

                  Was an officer in the USSR "hungry, angry and smelly"? I don’t remember that. We were trained to the highest degree, and we were politically (!) Savvy. Well, I don’t think it’s 100% correct that they removed “everyday life” from the daily routine. Let me explain why: a soldier learned to treat the location of the high frequency as a home, albeit temporary, but nevertheless ... Now they feel like temporary workers, and the service life is very much set up for such thoughts. Warm closets on the front line will be required soon.
                  Quote: aksakal
                  many experts are inclined to think that in general the army has become more mobile and more combat-ready

                  According to the combat schedule, my unit, in the event of an alarm, was to advance in the regiment's head guard after 20 minutes. We stacked for 12 (!!!), but on the whole the regiment never failed the standard and this (mind you) without any window dressing.
                  So Serdyukov's "military reform" is a myth. Its only achievements were the enormous vulnerability of the rear (it was necessary to think of enlarging military camps and, instead of several hundred warehouses of small arms, bring everything into units. Apparently, so that in one fell swoop it was possible to destroy everything) and the complete absence of military education. Many more examples can be cited, but these two are quite enough to condemn him under the article "For undermining the country's defense capability."
                  Or do you disagree?
                  1. aksakal
                    aksakal 7 November 2012 16: 09
                    -1
                    Quote: Fox 070
                    So I say that the support system was returned to the old one, but the merit in this was not Taburetkin, but rather the president.

                    - An unexpected version, but I agree, maybe you're right.
                    Quote: Fox 070
                    Was an officer in the USSR "hungry, angry and smelly"? I don’t remember that. We were trained to the highest degree, and we were politically (!) Savvy. Well, I don’t think it’s 100% correct that they removed “everyday life” from the daily routine. Let me explain why: a soldier learned to treat the location of the high frequency as a home, albeit temporary, but nevertheless ... Now they feel like temporary workers, and the service life is very much set up for such thoughts. Warm closets on the front line will be required soon.
                    - just a slight sarcasm. As for politically savvy - I remember our army’s political activities. The deputy politician lectured us about what amera is bad, not believing in it himself. And we generally laughed at this, dreaming about Ojins Lewis ostrich and chewing gum. I am sure that if such classes are being held now, then they may be held at the methodological level no better, but much more sincerely and confidently, and the majority of the students no longer chuckle. Because for 21 years of lessons they realized that the fact that he was broadcasting to us in a tedious voice, not believing in it himself, turned out to be true. It was necessary to poke his nose to make sure. So there is a controversial point about political savvy.
                    Quote: Fox 070
                    Its only achievements were the huge vulnerability of the rear (this had to be thought out to enlarge the military camps and instead of several hundred small arms depots to bring everything to units. Apparently so that everything could be destroyed in one fell swoop)

                    - long distances and huge sizes of Russia are our helpers. As the famous general from Griboyedoedovsky said, "Woe from Wit"? Are the distances huge? If all this is concentrated somewhere in the center of Russia, and if the air defense is well covered and reliably guarded from deversants, then we need to calculate whether we win anything in the logistical component, if we win, then Serdyukov is simply shot for this. If we do not win, then death through sophisticated torture -))))).
                2. s1н7т
                  s1н7т 8 November 2012 00: 09
                  -1
                  Quote: aksakal
                  I didn’t leave the feeling of such heavyness of her,

                  The right feeling!) Once you start it, you stop it! "The king's last argument", there is nothing to be done about it. Do you think it's different in other countries? Similar. I'm not talking about any "airmobile" and so on .. which we also had in abundance.
      2. Vadivak
        Vadivak 7 November 2012 11: 15
        +8
        Quote: aksakal
        those who served in the 80s already saw that the USSR did not draw a large army.

        Well, I served, there was a lot ... but there was a lot of funding, the technicians were rampant and they didn’t give new fools, they just broke the honors pupils purely on the initiative of Gorbachev
        1. Fox 070
          Fox 070 7 November 2012 11: 55
          +4
          Quote: Vadivak
          and they didn’t give new fools,

          Including negligent commanders of relatively large units.
          Quote: Vadivak
          collapsed purely on the initiative of Gorbachev

          For that he received a peace prize and an order - s ... ka.
      3. s1н7т
        s1н7т 7 November 2012 23: 58
        +1
        Quote: aksakal
        Given the abundance of this technique, can you imagine what its condition was in reality?

        This is because you are poorly informed, you probably say so. For 10 years of service, I changed 3 districts and 1 group. Everywhere is different. It was. In accordance with the priorities of military policy. Somewhere there was new equipment in large numbers and excellent condition (tank commanders, for example, there were not sergeants, but warrant officers - after service and the "Abwehr school"))), somewhere there were T-10Ms. Somewhere Su-15 flew, and somewhere - MiG-25. And the 80s are generally, in my opinion, the peak of the power of the USSR Armed Forces. We had a brigade nearby, which included, in addition to battalions and artillery divisions, 3 avi-regiments! There were already 2 brigades of "increased power" right in our town. This is in addition to the deployed division, the MiG-23 air regiment (advanced versions) and helicopters. And all this worked, fired, bombed, kneaded as many as 2 landfills in the district) And there was all sorts of crap - folding shovels, hoes, and raincoats, and speed consoles on the R / S, and machine guns with any exchangeable optics. Our "Realia-U" was cooler than "Rembas", and there are still no analogues of "Okhota-2" in the world, in my opinion. It's all 80s. But where all this to be - determined the military policy of the USSR. What is NTO, I also know you in ZabVO laughing
    2. s1н7т
      s1н7т 7 November 2012 23: 29
      0
      Quote: Gogh
      why then the general’s return to the big army?

      What is a big army? Divisions? Then you are a layman, like Serdyukov and Shoigu. There were also brigades in the USSR - where it was needed. But the brigade is "focal" operations that have nothing to do with the defense of the country from military aggression. Nobody canceled it yet. All along the borders. And in the depths of the country too - the second echelon, so to speak. And mob.reserves. and that's all - mobile brigades? laughing Do you think the Yankees have no divisions ?! laughing There is! And in Germany there is. Whoever does not prepare for a big war will lose even a small one. If we do not prepare for a war with NATO (as with any other potential adversary), then we will lose it. Axiom. Either we are a great country, or we have 20 brigades with 1-year-old fighters. Yes, and 2 tanks for the entire RF. In my opinion, neighboring Iran has more than 000 of them. And the "fucking battalion" will replace the "confidant battalion", for example. What will it change?
  6. Kyki57
    Kyki57 7 November 2012 08: 02
    -6
    Congratulations to the people of Russia with a real army general!
    And who in civilian let them sit in prison. drinks
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 7 November 2012 08: 15
      +3
      Quote: Kyki57
      Congratulations to the people of Russia with a real army general!

      Is he a true army general?
      Quote: Kyki57
      And who in civilian let them sit in prison.

      According to some reports, Serdyukov’s mistress, Zhenya Vasilieva, hasn’t even started a case for her abroad. Make bets on which country the former Defense Minister Serdyukov will choose for further residence what
      1. Vadivak
        Vadivak 7 November 2012 08: 54
        +4
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        Is he a true army general?


        Shoigu didn’t even serve as an urgent one, and you were an army general, however, such generals themselves — the head of the department of the Ministry of Emergencies in the Sverdlovsk Region, rose to the rank of general with a fake diploma of higher education,
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 7 November 2012 09: 03
          +5
          Quote: Vadivak
          rose to the rank of general with a fake diploma of higher education,

          Vadim, there is a reference to the newly made minister with a fake diploma wassat
          1. Vadivak
            Vadivak 7 November 2012 09: 33
            +4
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Vadim, there is a reference to the newly made minister with a fake diploma


            on the warrant officer of the Ministry of Emergencies with the rank of general

            http://top.rbc.ru/incidents/18/01/2010/362934.shtml
            Well, on a small riffraff
            http://vkurske.com/events/z27391505/
            1. survivor
              survivor 7 November 2012 09: 49
              0
              I remember Mr. Adi was also a corporal .....
              1. Vadivak
                Vadivak 7 November 2012 10: 12
                +4
                Quote: survivor
                I remember Mr. Adi was also a corporal .....


                He stayed with them and didn’t appropriate another military rank.

                there was the rank of SS - Der Oberste Fuehrer der Schutzstaffel. (Der Oberst Fuehrer der Schutzstaffel) "Supreme Leader of the SS".
        2. military
          military 7 November 2012 09: 15
          +1
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Is he a true army general?

          And Prince Potemkin-Tauride was a real field marshal ...? feel
          1. Marine One
            Marine One 7 November 2012 12: 11
            +4
            He was well deserved. In combat experience, Potemkin also will not refuse. With the same Turks, he fought notably, including, and he personally drove cavalry into attacks. However, then there was a completely different time, and other wars, and people too.
        3. Rockets
          Rockets 7 November 2012 14: 55
          -2

          Vadivak

          You’ve gotten to the Marshal here .. and still don’t know that the posts in government agencies are equated with the military. And Shoigu was the Minister
          Do you catch the difference between pi..ball and the minister?
          He is now the Minister of Defense, and you were like pi ... a bol so they remained ...
        4. Rockets
          Rockets 7 November 2012 16: 44
          0
          Quote: Vadivak
          Shoigu didn’t even serve urgent, and you are the Army General


          Shoigu has a Higher BUILDING Education. PhD in Economics

          Yes about the stats
          MOE is not GO!

          The head of the civil defense of Russia is the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation. And not when the Ministry of Emergencies was not transmitted, but is subordinate
          But the head of the Ministry of Emergencies is a member of the Military Council of GO
          After almost 10 years, since January 2002, the Ministry of Emergencies included 275 thousand employees of the State Fire Service of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, as well as 13 thousand 687 units of the main and 3 thousand 67 units of special fire fighting equipment.
          And 10 years since there was no Vadivak?
          There was no rescue corps, which served as a prototype of the current Ministry of Emergency Situations
          There was no Ufa oil refinery, the aftermath of the earthquake in the Krasnodar Territory, floods on the river. Volga, in Buryatia and the Chita region. There was no humanitarian assistance in the zone of the Georgian-Ossetian conflict and in the peacekeeping operation in Transnistria. There was no evacuation of citizens from the armed conflict zone in the Republic of Yemen (June 1993), a humanitarian operation in the Chechen Republic (March 1995), and there wasn’t much else, yes Vadivak?
          Well, it’s so little things who will pay attention to them when people bother with shit here
          Well, you think the hero of Russia, what he did there, on the pull of BN gave the star yes Vadivak?
          Daughter is a candidate of psychological sciences. From the bastard, the dynasty in the Ministry of Emergencies, this is a crime, not a plant, after all, yes Vadivak?
          Who is the judge? Open the face of Gyulchitai. How did you benefit Rossi? Orders, medals, honorary titles?
          1. Vadivak
            Vadivak 7 November 2012 21: 32
            +1
            Quote: Rockets
            Orders, medals, honorary titles?


            You still remember Brezhnev with his medals and honorary titles,
            1. Rockets
              Rockets 8 November 2012 00: 19
              +1
              Quote: Vadivak
              You still remember Brezhnev with his medals and honorary titles


              Not you, but you, this is for the marshals
              Brezhnev also had well-deserved BATTLE awards, and this is for the gifted
      2. military
        military 7 November 2012 09: 13
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        According to some reports, Serdyukov’s mistress, Zhenya Vasilyeva, didn’t even start a case for her abroad.

        a search was made, the "valuables" were seized, they were promoted throughout the country ... the case was not opened, a recognizance not to leave was not taken, the whereabouts were "established" ... wink
        TFR received an unspoken command "fu!" ...? from whoever, I wonder ... feel
    2. Pit Bull59
      Pit Bull59 7 November 2012 08: 17
      +5
      Shoigu is not a real general. A true general is a person who has gone through all the stages of formation (school, academy, high school, war - so that it is empty). Knowing and most importantly able to command and control troops ... Shamans - a real general!
      1. Rockets
        Rockets 7 November 2012 17: 04
        -2
        Quote: Pit Bull59
        Shoigu is not a real general

        Shoigu builder
        And he saw more than many generals with academies, and unlike these generals, he was on the "WAR" PERMANENTLY!
        Emergency is also a war. Death, devastation, WAR, blood, nerves
        Do not stupid!
        1. s1н7т
          s1н7т 8 November 2012 00: 20
          +1
          Quote: Rockets
          Do not stupid!

          Don't be stupid yourself! General is a military rank. The order of its assignment is spelled out. Shoigu has a drawn title. What he "saw" at the same time - his personal problems. And the main task of the Ministry of Emergency Situations is to prevent emergencies, and not to saw money on their settlement. Sawing is more profitable, right? laughing Such is the "war" for Shoigu.
        2. Vadivak
          Vadivak 8 November 2012 08: 43
          +2
          Quote: Rockets
          Emergency is also a war.



          Like a brainwashed. Are you and Seliger a friend to us?
    3. Vadivak
      Vadivak 7 November 2012 08: 57
      +17
      Quote: Kyki57
      Congratulations to the people of Russia with a real army general!


      Here is a real army general, (Vatutin) and your Shoigu is mum
      1. Fox 070
        Fox 070 7 November 2012 09: 38
        +5
        Quote: Vadivak
        Here is a real army general, (Vatutin)

        The real one, I agree, but this is a past generation of true generals, but the current REAL GENERAL and most importantly, while it is still alive and full of strength.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 7 November 2012 10: 23
          +5
          Quote: Fox 070
          but this is a past generation of true generals,


          On which you must equal and at least be like
          1. Fox 070
            Fox 070 7 November 2012 11: 11
            +3
            Quote: Vadivak
            On which you must equal and at least be like

            Of course !!! "+" That would be even more talked about in the media, but our "miracle leaders" would often remember their experience and there would not be SUCH problems with defense capability. In general, for such (to put it mildly) mischief, which Serdyukov and Makarov committed, one should give three days of execution, and not just dismiss. It got to the point that on the Day of Military Intelligence, only retirees are allowed to attend, because there are no active employees left.
        2. Joker
          Joker 7 November 2012 13: 33
          +3
          Guys, do not be discouraged, Shoigu first contacted Shamanov after the appointment, so with probability in 99,9% it can be said that he will be appointed instead of Makar Srakin. Shoigu himself said that he would rely on the opinion of the army team in everything. A good leader is not one who knows a lot of things and does something, but one who can put together a team in which every person in their field is a pro and give them instructions. (in my opinion these are Stalin's words)
          1. Fox 070
            Fox 070 7 November 2012 14: 22
            +1
            Quote: Joker
            After the appointment, Shoigu first contacted Shamanov, so with a probability of 99,9% we can say that he will be appointed instead of Makar Srakin.

            Hi Oleg! It will probably be so. And it is quite true that the power of a GOOD leader is in his subordinates. I think we need to wait for the first serious steps of the new minister, and then we will evaluate something.
            Quote: Joker
            can put together a team in which every person in their field is a pro and give them instructions.

            I look forward to such instructions. They will help a lot to clarify ... hi
            1. Joker
              Joker 7 November 2012 14: 46
              +2
              I look forward to such instructions. They will help a lot to clarify ...

              Hi hi If they put Shamanov, then I think this is a big step forward. We’ll see what will happen in a week, I think some actions will already begin, so we’ll see in which direction Shoigu will move.
            2. bask
              bask 7 November 2012 16: 02
              +5
              Joker Fox They won’t deliver the Shaman. They are very popular in the army and independent in decisions. Someone hasn’t canceled the lobby from S. Caucasus. There Shamanov is terribly loved, and there’s also an old, bubbly lobby, There are a lot of anti-Russian forces against. soldier
              1. OSTAP BENDER
                OSTAP BENDER 7 November 2012 19: 31
                +1
                bask! Plus, you are unfortunately right!
              2. Fox 070
                Fox 070 7 November 2012 19: 38
                +2
                Quote: bask
                Nearly a lot of anti-Russian forces against.

                But I agree with this completely and unconditionally !!! drinks But there is one remark:
                - Shamanov can be placed with only one goal - to tear him away from the direct command of the Airborne Forces, to withdraw the most efficient part of the Armed Forces from under the direct subordination of a very inconvenient general. And then remove from this position. Who knows where such "paths-paths" can lead ... request
                1. Joker
                  Joker 7 November 2012 19: 53
                  +1
                  And here is the first decision of Shoigu.
                  Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu decided to return cadets from the Suvorov and Nakhimov schools to participate in the May 9th Victory Day parades on Red Square. About this 9 November reports Interfax, citing a source in the defense department.

                  As the agency’s interlocutor noted, Shoigu at a meeting with the leadership of the armed forces drew special attention to the preparation of the Victory Parade 9 on May 2013.

                  Earlier, on November 6, it was reported that the speaker of the State Duma from United Russia, Sergei Zheleznyak, would ask Shoigu to return the Suvorovites and Nakhimovites to the Victory Parades on Red Square.

                  Ex-Minister of Defense Anatoly Serdyukov canceled the participation in the military parades of students from the Suvorov and Nakhimov schools several years ago.

                  Sergei Shoigu became Minister of Defense the day before, on November 6, replacing Serdyukov at this post.
                  1. bask
                    bask 7 November 2012 20: 00
                    +2
                    Joker, the second and main decision of the MO Shoigu should be the restoration. All the academies in Moscow, ruined ,,, this, Pinocchio ,,,, Without military intelligence, high-class engineers, The modern army can not do ... 21 century (((( digital technologies ((((
                  2. s1н7т
                    s1н7т 8 November 2012 00: 26
                    +1
                    Quote: Joker
                    Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu decided to return cadets from the Suvorov and Nakhimov schools to participate in parades

                    Pi-pez, resolute laughing Window dressing.
                2. bask
                  bask 7 November 2012 20: 07
                  0
                  Yes Fox agrees such a trick, they can arrange it ... And without the Russian Airborne Forces the end. Without the Margelov’s fighters, it will not be the Soviet-Russian Army in the Airborne Forces in their own time when they didn’t shoot !!!! not in 91, not in 93 g. as they were not ordered.
                  1. s1н7т
                    s1н7т 8 November 2012 00: 33
                    0
                    Quote: bask
                    without the Russian Airborne Forces end

                    Right now! This is without the FSB and the Ministry of Internal Affairs of present-day Russia. And without Strategic Rocket Forces. The rest is not important for them.
                    By the way, are you aware that once we had as many as 10 corps (!) Of the Airborne Forces? That power was! ... And where is it all? One division and several "brigades"? We have no airborne forces. There is a similarity.
          2. s1н7т
            s1н7т 8 November 2012 00: 24
            0
            Quote: Joker
            we can say that instead of Makar Srakin he will be appointed

            What will it change? Nothing. Well, it will be softer, a little longer, but the result is the same - "reform". I hope Shamanov won't go.
  7. Ustas
    Ustas 7 November 2012 08: 03
    +3
    VIEW: Who should the new minister rely on? In recent years, very many officers have been dismissed from the ministry and the General Staff.

    YB: This is the worst problem. Now the affairs and scale of individuals in the military leadership are incommensurable with those that were before the nineties. There is no such level of people as then. This is largely due to Serdyukov, because he fired all the military. I served in the Turkestan military district for a long time and all the time I remember one local proverb. The Uzbeks say this: "Ishak, walking in the shade, will never work in the sun." The main thing is that the chief of the General Staff is caught in such a way that he has his own point of view.

    I think Shamans would do.
    1. Karish
      Karish 7 November 2012 08: 14
      0
      Quote: Ustas
      The main thing is that the chief of the General Staff is caught in such a way that he has his own point of view.

      and who needs one these days? Would you take a deputy with an independent outlook on things?
      1. Ustas
        Ustas 7 November 2012 08: 27
        +2
        Quote: Karish
        and who needs one these days? Would you take a deputy with an independent outlook on things?

        And you remember the story. A whole army of commissars, then political officers. Different points of view, different approaches. But the war was won by professionals who listened to rational ideas.
      2. Vadivak
        Vadivak 7 November 2012 08: 55
        +14
        Quote: Karish
        Would you take a deputy with an independent outlook on things?

        I would take for It is impossible to rely on what is bending
        1. military
          military 7 November 2012 09: 20
          +3
          Quote: Vadivak
          Impossible to lean on what bends

          good drinks hi +++++++++++
  8. Pit Bull59
    Pit Bull59 7 November 2012 08: 08
    +8
    The general said correctly! +++ In the empty, plundered place that remained after Serdyukov, it will be difficult for Shoigu without highly qualified professionals who know the army from within. And the reform, which Serdyukov carried out on orders from above, must be canceled! It is necessary to return from oblivion and the training of military personnel. Tell me, what was wrong with the Soviet system? Of course, maybe she wasn't perfect. Maybe. But it was impossible to chop off the shoulder and turn everything upside down! Why was it impossible to take all the good things and, so to speak, "polish taking into account modern requirements"? Of course, a lot of things you can write, talk and argue on this topic. There is only one conclusion: the ongoing reform needs to be reformed! Sorry for the butter.
    1. v53993
      v53993 7 November 2012 13: 03
      +2
      It is necessary to return from oblivion the training of military personnel. Tell me, what was the bad Soviet system?


      The fact that in terms of their level were unattainable for NATO.
      1. Fox 070
        Fox 070 7 November 2012 14: 23
        +3
        Quote: v53993
        in terms of their level were inaccessible to NATO.

        I confirm and support 100%. "+" drinks
  9. Karish
    Karish 7 November 2012 08: 20
    0
    Quote: Pit Bull59
    And the reform that Serdyukov carried out at the direction from above must be abolished!

    you will be surprised, but nothing will change, you yourself said, according to the sign from above, who will cancel the sign?

    How much time do you think Shoigu needs to get on track?

    YB: From three to five years. The first year is nothing at all; it will only begin to figure out, fly around, get acquainted. In the second year will begin to understand something. The third to fifth years will be the most productive. It can also be left for this term, but then, as mentioned above, it is necessary to divide the functional duties between the civilian minister and the General Staff, as was done in a number of Western countries.

    from 3 to 5 years old? all this is strange. in the West it’s not enough that civilian defense ministers (and sometimes women) are not given to them from 3 to 5 years of age, and for this time, the government will simply change, while reproaching their armed forces for disruption is somehow stupid .. And then the army general, half life, in the Ministry of Emergencies (the same paramilitary structure) and only enter the course 3-5 years. Why?
    1. survivor
      survivor 7 November 2012 09: 56
      +1
      You missed another question ....- "But does Russia have these peaceful three to five years? Aren't there many experiments in the institute, where experiments of a similar plan are fraught with huge losses at best?"
      I constantly ask myself a question, - "how would one act on the operating table, knowing that the operation will be carried out, not even by a medical student, but by a plumber?" seems to be a professional too, but ...
      reforms in the army are needed, this is a fact that does not require evidence, and the reforms are big. but WHO AND HOW WILL BE CARRIED OUT? the old house can be a) broken. to build a new, more comfortable one in its place. at the same time, some details of the old house can be used in construction. b) it is possible to carry out a complete repair. this will make it possible to live N more years in relative warmth and comfort. c) you can simply close the holes with shields and draw a paradise on them. just makeup! however, the problems will remain. the roof is flowing and is ready to fall on its head, and blowing out of cracks, and pipes rusty flow.
      so is our army. the problem is the rampart, there are no solutions! if a house collapsing threatens the death of several families, then the army suddenly collapsing on the battlefield threatens with the loss of independence and millions of victims ....
    2. aksakal
      aksakal 7 November 2012 14: 36
      +1
      Quote: Karish
      from 3 to 5 years? all this is strange. in the West it’s not enough that civilian defense ministers (and sometimes women) are no one from 3, up to 5 years old, to keep up to date, for that time, the government will simply change, while blaming their armed forces for disability is somehow silly ..

      “Karish, you are speculating, and unscrupulously.” You know very well that in Russia the post of Minister of Defense has two components - the political component and the specific component, which, in turn, again breaks down into two very complex areas - the technical component - in the field of weapons and the purely military component. So, in the West, the Minister of Defense leads the purely political side of the work, and the General Staff is led by a specific component with the corresponding specialized services. That is why
      Quote: Karish
      civil defense ministers (and sometimes women) no one from 3 to 5 years of entry into the course of things gives them,

      - a pure professional politician is appointed who can immediately fulfill his duties. In the case of Shoigu, no one is going to remove him from supervising a specific component (military and technical), which is the most difficult in this department, and given the size of the ministry, it becomes clear why it takes 2-3 years to "enter the topic" ... Karish, here's what's interesting - are you, typing this post, deliberately pretended to be dunno, or is it really so? If on purpose, for what purpose? What would be somehow unobtrusive against Shoigu to say, supposedly, stupid, two or three years are needed, or for some other purpose?
    3. s1н7т
      s1н7т 8 November 2012 00: 45
      +2
      Quote: Karish
      and only enter the course 3-5 years. Why?

      Because in our country the Defense Ministry rules the army in peacetime, but they do not. The army is a very complex machine. No wonder there were 3 levels of education. Or do you not know? Probably the Pepsi generation? Then why do you need it? Get some chips and wait for the show. And the paramilitary structure has nothing to do with the army at all!
  10. smel
    smel 7 November 2012 08: 28
    +7
    Rarely do you find a real assessment of the Ministry of Emergencies, and even more so the memories of the destroyed civil defense .. Definitely a plus to the author
    1. Baron Wrangell
      Baron Wrangell 7 November 2012 09: 41
      +5
      secrets of the Ministry of Emergencies are covered in darkness! as far as I know, this is not the most positive structure. Some inspectors are worth it! It’s just that Shoigu understood his own ministry, and he didn’t let journalists go to the negative, he showed only beautiful teachings !! So it’s not yet known how this will end for the army. And I am sure that there will be big personnel changes at 100%, since Shoigu will put his people on key posts!
  11. Pit Bull59
    Pit Bull59 7 November 2012 08: 50
    +1
    Quote: Karish
    you will be surprised, but nothing will change, you yourself said, according to the sign from above, who will cancel the sign?

    I absolutely agree with you +++
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 7 November 2012 09: 38
      +8
      Quote: Pit Bull59
      But I wonder how it will be with Iveks and Centaurs now?


      Porsche Cayenne is an indispensable thing in the Ministry of Emergencies,
      1. vorobey
        vorobey 7 November 2012 11: 04
        +5
        Quote: Vadivak
        Porsche Cayenne is an indispensable thing in the Ministry of Emergencies,


        Vadim if I remember this is the cayenne of the chief of the Moscow fire service who gave me the meadows and which he converted to the Ministry of Emergencies on his own initiative. By the way, he died manly, saving people.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 7 November 2012 11: 59
          +6
          Quote: vorobey
          he converted to the Ministry of Emergencies on his own initiative. By the way, he died manly, saving people.


          Hi \ Sasha, the fact that he died at the post is a hero, and Cayenne is an arsonist, (how will you rebuild it?) Could change for 10 special vehicles
      2. Rockets
        Rockets 7 November 2012 17: 18
        -1
        Quote: Vadivak
        Porsche Cayenne is an indispensable thing in the Ministry of Emergencies,


        Emergencies Ministry equipment, including imported, more specifically, this Caen is not subject to taxes and customs duties.
        And it costs cheaper than any BMW official for the Ministry of Emergencies
        So calm down the writer
  12. UzRus
    UzRus 7 November 2012 09: 15
    +2
    But I wonder how it will be with Iveks and Centaurs now?
    1. Armata
      Armata 7 November 2012 09: 32
      +1
      Yes, they will not go anywhere. Lynxes are already doing with us, but he knows about centaurs. Maybe it won’t. It is a pity that the Mistral have already paid and there is no turning back.
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 7 November 2012 11: 08
        0
        It is a pity that the Mistral have already paid and there is no turning back.
        O5 25 we kind of came to the conclusion that the mistral is politics. And the agreement was clearly at the level of Medvedev / Putin-Sarkozy.
        And yet this is a pretty good ship from those that sell. + Political and economic bonuses (which is more important)
        By the way, regarding foreign weapons, if there was an opportunity, I would equip the brigade with the Armaments of Europe, China and the USA.
        Threat before intelligence got such things (spending a lot of resources on it), and now you can often buy all this.
    2. Vadivak
      Vadivak 7 November 2012 09: 35
      +2
      Quote: UzRus
      But I wonder how it will be with Iveks and Centaurs now?


      Porsche and Daimlers will be added
      1. urzul
        urzul 7 November 2012 09: 43
        +1
        Then, for sure, everyone in the army will go to serve.
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 7 November 2012 10: 15
          +4
          Quote: urzul
          Then, for sure, everyone in the army will go to serve.

          Andrey, is this a service for a year? Rather, the initial military training
          1. UzRus
            UzRus 7 November 2012 11: 53
            0
            Actually, not a service, but for someone - yes. And most likely not NVP, but KMB.
      2. UzRus
        UzRus 7 November 2012 11: 51
        0
        But it will be too much.
  13. abeluk
    abeluk 7 November 2012 09: 38
    +7
    if Shoigu will lead the defense as extinguished fires, it is time to surrender. our forest burned for 2 weeks (Voronezh region, Liski), fire brigades stood on the road and watched the forest burn. Ukrainian firefighters came to the rescue, rolled their sleeves into the woods. Ours did not budge. Now it’s clear why, they freed up a place for development. .Te. firefighters controlled annealing the forest. And the forest itself was set on fire artificially.
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 7 November 2012 11: 06
      0
      But does the honorable citizen know that there are different fires?
    2. UzRus
      UzRus 7 November 2012 11: 55
      -3
      abeluk, you write some horrors - they stood and watched the forest burn. Have you been told or seen?
    3. military
      military 7 November 2012 15: 32
      +1
      Quote: abeluk
      our forest burned for 2 weeks (Voronezh region, Liski)

      well, in our Ryazan region the Prioksky biosphere reserve was also burning ... and firefighters also smoked bamboo on the sidelines ... feel and the motivation, it seems, is understandable - there are no access roads to the source of the fire, and the "gut" is a bit short ... and sat in an "ambush", waiting for the fire to get close to them ... recourse
    4. Rockets
      Rockets 7 November 2012 17: 31
      -2
      Quote: abeluk
      if Shoigu will lead the defense as extinguished fires,

      You carry garbage and not what else did not surrender
      Forest fires to the Ministry of Emergencies which side?
      When you guys learn at least a little bit to be in the subject before carrying nonsense ???
      Ministry of Emergencies can engage and involve people and equipment in forest fires. But this is not part of their responsibilities.
  14. AK-74-1
    AK-74-1 7 November 2012 09: 46
    +1
    Greetings to all respected commentators!
    With the dismissal of Serdyukov, as well as with the appointment of Shoigu, you need to live at least six months.
    The new minister has several issues that require immediate resolution. And in the first place I would like to put the question of the continuation of the most normal television channel "Zvezda". In this regard, I agree with some gentlemen who sent Dmitry Anatolyevich to a well-known address with his public television. The army must have its own information mouthpiece. Moreover, this can be done already this week.
    At the same time, I would like to point out the undeniable achievement of Serdyukov - the fulfillment by the RF Ministry of Defense of the powers of the owner with respect to military property. The facts of corruption, known in the media, on the use of military property did not acquire a systemic nature and allowed to maintain the bulk of the military property on the territory of the country. No enemies are needed with our Federal Property Management Agency (although Dergunova hasn’t shown herself yet).
    1. Fox 070
      Fox 070 7 November 2012 10: 07
      +3
      Quote: AK-74-1
      I would like to raise the question of the continuation of the most normal television channel "Zvezda".

      More than normal, and, perhaps, the only noteworthy channel that pays great attention to the patriotic education of youth and does not curse our history on what the light stands.
      And about the change in the leadership of the Moscow Region ... I'm glad Serdyukov's resignation (although it should have been done much earlier), although I think that this is a purely technical reshuffle (Serdyukov has fulfilled his task and all the "dogs" will be put on him). I really want to hope for positive changes under Shoigu, but what to expect from the Knight of Malta and the Freemason ... I think that hopes will remain hopes.
      To drive Makarov with a filthy broom from the army in general, depriving him of his rank and pension.
      The army should be commanded by a cadre, combat officer, not a foreman of tax affairs, paired with swindlers, surrounded by a "woman's battalion." soldier
      1. Volkhov
        Volkhov 7 November 2012 11: 23
        +2
        The "Syrian rebels" have got a lot of tanks, howitzers, 120 mm mortars - are they really controlled by the Arabs according to the instructions translated by Google? This is the contribution of the Russian Federation to the world division of labor. From us - weapons, ammunition, people, and there is someone to command - a whole international headquarters. We need someone who will quickly deliver these funds at the disposal of the leaders of a real war, that's all, this is "tribute with swords."
      2. leon-iv
        leon-iv 7 November 2012 11: 32
        0
        The army should be commanded by a military officer
        Command military units and yes they are. BUT agree MO should not be with a saber on a horse in the forefront. It has other functions and tasks. And what is suitable for the database is not always suitable for classrooms and meetings
        1. Fox 070
          Fox 070 7 November 2012 12: 08
          0
          Quote: leon-iv
          MO should not be with a sword on the horse in the forefront.

          Maybe not a horse with a checker, but with a clear knowledge of how this is done and with experience in dealing with this same checker, sitting on exactly the same horse.
          Quote: leon-iv
          what is suitable for the database is not always suitable for classrooms and meetings

          Yes, licking ass ... in military schools was not taught before, and graduates of academies (including the AGSh) were taught to lead the Armed Forces, and not to bend. Therefore, if we want to have a strong and efficient army, we need a military leader, not just another political appointee (remember Gryzlov when he was Minister of Internal Affairs. And so the ministry was "not very good", but under his rule it has generally decayed). hi
      3. andrey122
        andrey122 7 November 2012 14: 29
        0
        The noble Order of Merit pro Merito Melitensi of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta was established in 1920 to award services to the Order of Malta. Orders can be awarded mainly to persons who are not members of the Order of Malta, regardless of their religion. Awarding this order does not automatically entail membership in the Order of Malta.
        1. Fox 070
          Fox 070 7 November 2012 15: 12
          +1
          Quote: andrey122
          to be awarded for services to the Order of Malta.

          And for what such "services to the order" was Shoigu awarded? And his neighborhood with such surnames as Berezovsky, Yeltsin, Gorbachev, heck ... does not bother you with Shakhrai? What did they do so "useful" for the Order? request
  15. leon-iv
    leon-iv 7 November 2012 11: 04
    +1
    they didn’t have time to appoint a bullet already started to throw poop))))))))
    And does the general know that the Ministry of Emergencies is a paramilitary structure built on a military principle and that 70% of the employees are former military?
    And yes, the Omerikanechegs constantly come to us to undergo training. TC EMERCOM of Russia are considered the most effective.
  16. vorobey
    vorobey 7 November 2012 11: 07
    +5
    My friends are soon to rejoice and beat the drums. Makarka is standing in line. If one of the first steps is to change the NSS (by the way, the shaman therefore did not become a minister, I think), then the rescuer really came.
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 7 November 2012 11: 29
      0
      Makarov has in my opinion another 2 years then in reserve. I think so most likely they will leave him. For he is simply a performer.
      1. vorobey
        vorobey 7 November 2012 11: 34
        +3
        Quote: leon-iv
        I have 2 more years then in stock


        Leon welcome. It seems to me that he has not had these two years.
        1. leon-iv
          leon-iv 7 November 2012 12: 12
          0
          It seems to me that he has not had these two years.
          And what's the difference who will speak and execute orders?
          Moreover, the same Makarov has HUGE experience and, unlike the degeneral Ivashov, he really commanded, and did not open the doors to the offices. And he went all the way from Platoon to the NHS.
          And given that the army is a very bone and conservative place, it’s not surprising
          1. vorobey
            vorobey 7 November 2012 12: 39
            +4
            Quote: leon-iv
            And he went all the way from Platoon to the NHS.

            Moreover, quickly at a pace of 110-120 steps per minute. But the shaman, in addition to shoigu, is an inexpensive Molotov cocktail. Not only opponents but also allies will start scratching turnips.
            1. leon-iv
              leon-iv 7 November 2012 12: 53
              0
              But the shaman in addition to the shoigu
              Here’s the nuance of Shamanov’s cons.
              He often does then thinks. But in politics this is UNACCEPTABLE.
              1. vorobey
                vorobey 7 November 2012 13: 50
                +3
                Quote: leon-iv
                But in politics this is UNACCEPTABLE


                therefore the minister is not him.
              2. military
                military 7 November 2012 15: 38
                -1
                Quote: leon-iv
                He often does then thinks. But in politics this is UNACCEPTABLE.

                perhaps not only in politics, but also in staff work ... feel
  17. understudy
    understudy 7 November 2012 11: 40
    +1
    The enemies of our generals were thoroughly "cleaned out". It's time to write a petition to the "king-father" about the conscription of former "Afghans" and participants 080808 ... The reformist "professionalism" was enough only for unparalleled theft, shoulder straps on the belly and replacement of four buttons with three.
    Today, on Radio 7, I heard a phrase about hundreds of divits in short skirts that cut through the ministry ... a lyadsky incubator, not a military department.
  18. UzRus
    UzRus 7 November 2012 11: 49
    -1
    Gentlemen, it is not a fact that the new minister will not bring girls with him either. laughing
    1. vorobey
      vorobey 7 November 2012 12: 45
      +3
      Quote: UzRus
      not the fact that the new minister will not bring girls with him either.


      But he will take away the girls who have already warmed up there.
      1. military
        military 7 November 2012 15: 40
        +2
        Quote: vorobey
        But he will take away the girls who have already warmed up there.

        bad business is not tricky ... laughing
        1. vorobey
          vorobey 7 November 2012 16: 10
          +2
          Quote: military
          bad business is not tricky ...


          maybe even a straightening will appear, but the teams will begin to understand correctly.
          1. military
            military 7 November 2012 16: 34
            +1
            Quote: vorobey
            maybe even a straightening will appear, but the teams will begin to understand correctly.

            it’s troublesome ... perhaps it’s easier to get them all from the beach ...
    2. military
      military 9 November 2012 09: 03
      +1
      Quote: UzRus
      Gentlemen, it is not a fact that the new minister will not bring girls with him either.

      bastard babai ... recourse about the girls it’s not yet clear, but the Ministry of Defense is clearly stuffing with the Ministry of Emergencies ...
  19. i-gor63
    i-gor63 7 November 2012 13: 14
    0
    The question is why the president needs this. Because to keep such a Serdyukov, not paying attention to the opinion of the military, to allow him to destroy personnel, and the army itself, this leads to certain thoughts. For some reason, the president looked at his nonsense through his fingers.
  20. Pinochet000
    Pinochet000 7 November 2012 13: 24
    +2
    YB: Firstly, if he restores the main commands of the branches of the Armed Forces. Now they are destroyed. In each, 90 people are completely powerless, worthless controls.

    Secondly, if he drives away from there these women, incompetent, bastards, who hate the officers, with whom it is impossible to solve a single question. Imagine, now, as they say, in the breaks at the collegium of the department there is a queue for women's toilets more than for men’s. Women's battalion of some kind.

    And, thirdly, if he restores military education. Now it is destroyed. Since September 1, all the academies have switched to a ten-month course. Exactly such a period was given to the factory schools in the post-war period, when they were taught for the most primitive specialties - locksmith, bricklayer, etc. Now there will be ten months to teach the officer to work in the operational and strategic levels of management. And in the Academy of the General Staff taught for ten months, and in ordinary academies.

    If Shoigu takes at least these three steps, he will immediately be supported.

    I agree completely. You know, I read the interview and thought how much the level of this Officer, General, Man is higher, everything that controls our armed forces today ..... IMHO
  21. wax
    wax 7 November 2012 14: 21
    +1
    DAM - go! With things.
  22. Larus
    Larus 7 November 2012 15: 05
    -1
    Where did you ... previously used to be when the stool was taxing. And then immediately the dissatisfied sissyns climbed out. Such people should be driven after the stool.
  23. sxn278619
    sxn278619 7 November 2012 16: 53
    +1
    The author of the article confuses the functions of the Minister of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff.
    Therefore, it is uninteresting to read at the wrong address.
  24. VadimSt
    VadimSt 7 November 2012 18: 28
    +1
    Well, finally - to remove Serdyukov!
    I am more amazed that under the President of Russia there are several large and small "Soviets", the main purpose of which is to objectively and not biased, to bring public opinion to the President on certain issues. This is democracy in action.
    But, the country's defenses are not a matter of democracy.
    Alas, claniness and personal loyalty when moving up the career ladder are not news, nor is protectionism in the procurement of weapons, etc. .. Therefore, there is a Council that will bring together truly respected military leaders-practitioners from among retirees, military analysts and experts - not by name, but by vocation, etc., perhaps, it is in demand by time. This would greatly contribute to avoiding mistakes in personnel and structural changes in the armed forces, organizing and implementing a rearmament program, assessing existing threats, etc.
    But, it is, thoughts aloud. Just - why don't they think about it?
  25. dmb
    dmb 7 November 2012 20: 09
    +2
    Gentlemen with foam at the mouth, praising the newly made minister, I want to bring one simple riddle. I won’t vouch for the accuracy of the digits, but the ratio is just that. In Shoigu's income statement for 2011, his spouse earned about 23 million rubles. In Forbes magazine, this figure is three times more. The question is, why is the criminal case still not instituted? Regardless of someone's desires, it must be excited by law. Either in relation to Shoigu's wife, who evaded paying taxes on a particularly large scale (Shoigu himself must fly out of state service for the inaccuracy of the filed declaration), or in relation to the leadership of the magazine, who had incriminated the saints in a serious crime. The latter personally seems to me doubtful, because, unlike our media leaders and journalists in Forbes, they really imagine the possible consequences for the magazine’s reputation, including financial ones.
  26. in reserve
    in reserve 7 November 2012 20: 56
    +1
    Three to five years old. The first year is nothing at all, it will only begin to understand, fly around, get to know each other. In the second year, he will begin to understand something. The third to fifth years will be the most productive. It can be left for this period, but then, as mentioned above, it is necessary to divide the responsibilities between the civilian minister and the General Staff, as has been done in a number of Western countries.


    It is not clear that there really are no worthy military left for the post of Minister of Defense. Shoigu is a good person, but not a strategist and thinks not military.
  27. saturn.mmm
    saturn.mmm 7 November 2012 21: 22
    -1
    Former Chief of Staff of the Ground Forces sharply criticizes the work of Anatoly Serdyukov
    I don’t know how it is now, but with such chiefs of the main headquarters, the officer in Petropavlovsk-Komchatsky would have to give a bribe to get vacation pay, I read the comments and I think what a good army there was before Serdyukov and the fig had to be reformed, the defense industry survived on shabbat but the state didn’t have to spend money on some new weapons, but they could take increased obligations on social programs.
    And of course, how can it be without a rollback.
  28. v53993
    v53993 7 November 2012 21: 29
    +1
    We need a serious setback


    The questions raised in the article are correct. But one topic that the title of the article directly points to is not disclosed. Indeed, when there will be a reverse rollback by the oligarchs and stealing officials of what is stolen from the people and the state?
    1. Black
      Black 8 November 2012 14: 08
      +1
      The answer is simple - NEVER!
  29. s1н7т
    s1н7т 8 November 2012 00: 56
    +1
    General well done and smart! You can see the old school. Something new will be at the level of FZU.
    Like many commentators here laughing
  30. Marconi41
    Marconi41 8 November 2012 05: 22
    +1
    I recalled the old Aremean joke.
    Old platoon surrenders to a young lieutenant
    and at the end gives him 3 packages. "Will not be able to
    open one at a time "
    A month later: things in the guts (equipment in the crap l / s in shit)
    The lieutenant opens 1 package, and it says: "Pull everything on me"
    Letekha brings down, the authorities forgive, and after six months everything repeats
    The lieutenant opens the 2nd package: "Repent"
    The platoon repents, the authorities forgive, and after a year everything repeats.
    The lieutenant opens the 3 package, and it says: "Prepare three packages!"

    I wonder when Shoigu will open the 1st package ?!)
  31. Black
    Black 8 November 2012 14: 07
    +1
    Well, not even a year has passed .... Colonel General Valery Gerasimov, commander of the Central Military District, was asked to head the General Staff.
    It would be interesting to know the general's opinion on the appointments .....
  32. Prosha
    Prosha 11 November 2012 01: 15
    0
    This situation reminds me of something in the pre-war years, when everyone was taken to command posts, including companies commanders ...
    In general, I think for corruption in the field of defense, space and the Ministry of Internal Affairs it is necessary to return draconian measures and equate crimes to sabotage and betrayal and judge up to life