Military Review

We are talking about the modernization of our tanks for SVO, and when will we change their shells?

85
Source: tvzvezda.ru
Source: tvzvezda.ru



Since the beginning of the special military operation in Ukraine, thousands, if not tens of thousands of comments on how to modernize our Tanks taking into account modern realities. Either they talk about the mandatory equipment of combat vehicles with an active protection complex, or the presence of a drone on a tank is erected at the forefront. You can’t count all the rationalization proposals, but for some reason they somehow abruptly forgot about the shells. And for them, specifically high-explosive fragmentation, it is high time to retire. Especially when there is an alternative.

When a high-explosive fragmentation projectile is as important as a sub-caliber one


In general, the ammunition load of our tanks is quite interesting. In fact, it consists of as many as three types of armor-piercing ammunition, which includes feathered sub-caliber and cumulative projectiles, as well as guided missiles launched through a cannon barrel. But there is only one projectile that can effectively deal with enemy manpower, fortifications and unarmored (or lightly armored) equipment - high-explosive fragmentation (OFS). Yes, you can shoot at the same buildings and structures with sub-caliber ones, and for lack of a better one, a cumulative one is also suitable for infantry, but the OFS is the king here - the king of wars of the last decades.

Source: ianed.ru
Source: ianed.ru

We participated in the Afghan war, followed by Chechnya, and then Syria. And no conflict from this list was marked by some too significant head-on tank battles - such episodes were rather rare. However, one can reasonably object: all these wars were fought against semi-partisan formations, therefore, in principle, there could not be tank battles there.

But on February 24, 2022, a special military operation began on the territory of Ukraine. An enemy with a fairly large armed forces with several hundred tanks and a bunch of other armored vehicles. And ... large-scale or at least frequent battles of tanks against tanks again did not happen.

Again, as in the last 30-odd years, the same tasks are set before the tankers. In urban conditions - the suppression and complete destruction of enemy strongholds in buildings and other structures. In the field - again, the suppression and destruction of strongholds, the grinding of positions and the breakthrough of defense, or vice versa - its provision. And, as it becomes clear, high-explosive fragmentation shells in these conditions play a dominant role.

The author does not have detailed information about the shells consumed by our troops, but even offhand, the consumption of high-explosive ammunition in tank units exceeds the rest of the ammunition ten times, if not more.

And what is the problem?


And the problem is that the design and principle of operation of regular tank high-explosive fragmentation shells have long been outdated. Not really unnecessary trash, you can fight, but the fact of the presence of flaws is obvious.

And you need to start, as usual, for health, and for peace later.

The undoubted advantage of OFS is the ability to break through walls, parapets and other obstacles. He moved the fuse valve to the closed position, installed the protective cap - and shoot at the enemy's sheltered manpower. The very thick walls of some reinforced concrete bunkers will not be mastered the first time - it would be desirable to first break through a gap with a sub-caliber projectile, or in general it will be limited to them alone - but for most tasks of this type it will be enough. Here you can give an example of "Azovstal" in Mariupol, when the tanks actually became the main armored "sledgehammer", which could somehow smoke out the enemy who had settled there.

Shooting at the enemy who had settled in buildings became the main work of tanks in urban conditions in the NVO zone. Source: sila-rf.ru
Shooting at the enemy who had settled in buildings became the main work of tanks in urban conditions in the NVO zone. Source: sila-rf.ru

But in open space, when only trenches and dispersed manpower are in the gunner’s sight, or, as a particular example, the positions of anti-tank missile systems, some problems begin. And sometimes such that even a fortified bunker will be easier.

It can be quite difficult to hit infantry in the trenches with a high-explosive fragmentation projectile, given the fact that it is well protected from the impact of fragments. Therefore, here, in order to destroy the enemy with a high degree of probability, especially at decent firing distances, you need either a direct hit in the trench, or next to it. And it's good if these positions are on some elevation - then it will be easier to hit them. And if the terrain is like an ironing board?

Infantry in the trenches is a difficult target for a tank. Source: news.myseldon.com
Infantry in the trenches is a difficult target for a tank. Source: news.myseldon.com

In one of the previous publications about the 152-mm cannon for a tank, we already cited as an example one of the episodes of the Chechen campaign, when the enemy infantry was behind the parapet, and the tankers had to try hard to hit it. Shot - the projectile flew over, shot again - undershot. They would have suffered so if it were not for the tree growing next to the parapet. They gave high-explosive fragmentation in his crown, then the enemy was covered from above.

With open manpower, including ATGM calculations, there are also difficulties. And it is not always easy to hit targets of this type with machine gun weapons. This topic generally requires a separate material, but in short it can be said: in most cases, preference will be given to a cannon, rather than machine guns.

First, as in the case of trenches, it is not always possible to adequately estimate the range to such targets, even with the help of a tank's laser rangefinder. Well, if the distance does not exceed the range of a direct shot, but what if more? Experienced and seasoned gunners will cope faster, but what if we are talking about "average"? One shot, two, three?

Anti-tank missile systems, especially man-portable ones, are among the most difficult targets for a tank. Source: trmzk.ru
Anti-tank missile systems, especially man-portable ones, are among the most difficult targets for a tank. Source: trmzk.ru

Secondly, a regular high-explosive fragmentation projectile does not have the highest lethality in open space. The fact is that under these conditions, the fragmentation field formed by the projectile comes to the fore, but the energy of the explosion plays a secondary role.

The direction of the flow of fragments during the static detonation of a high-explosive fragmentation projectile. Source: "Means of destruction and ammunition" A.V. Babkin, V.A. Veldanov and others.
The direction of the flow of fragments during the static detonation of a high-explosive fragmentation projectile. Source: Means of Destruction and Ammunition. A. V. Babkin, V. A. Veldanov and others.

And with a fragmentation field, everything is just not very good. Since the OFS has a cylindrical shape, the largest number of fragments scatters perpendicular (or so) to its axis, therefore, when a projectile hits a surface (the ground, and so on), a significant part of the lethal elements goes either into the ground or up.

Schematic representation of the escape of fragments into the ground and up when the projectile is detonated. Source: topwar.ru
Schematic representation of the escape of fragments into the ground and up when the projectile is detonated. Source: topwar.ru

Because of this, the zone of actual destruction, although it seems large - depending on the angle of arrival, it can reach 60 meters wide and 20 deep and even more - but in fact the fragmentation field is distributed “crosswise” with large gaps, that is, the anti-personnel capabilities of the projectile are not as big as you would like. Guaranteed to cover the enemy without an exact hit will not always work, and an exact hit, as we noted above, is still a problem.

Schematic picture of the distribution of the fragmentation field of the projectile depending on the angle of its incidence. Source: www.dzen.ru
Schematic picture of the distribution of the fragmentation field of the projectile depending on the angle of its incidence. Source: www.dzen.ru

There is an alternative to high-explosive fragmentation


What conclusion can be drawn here? What projectile is required?

To effectively defeat the enemy’s manpower, both openly located and in the trenches, he must be able to air blast, since only from above can the largest area be tightly covered with fragments / striking elements. At the same time, the projectile should also work as a standard OFS, that is, be able to break through the walls of fortifications and buildings.

It is noteworthy that we have progress in this matter, and even of a serial nature.

Suffice it to recall the widely advertised Ainet system at the time, which was equipped with the T-90 and T-90A tanks, as well as the T-80UK. And speaking from a financial, industrial, nomenclature and other points of view, its implementation requires relatively lower costs, since the shells themselves do not need to be changed - it is enough for a standard OFS to screw on the 3VM-12 electronic fuse. Although, if we are talking about a total redesign of all tanks for this system, it will be necessary to make changes to the fire control complex, including through the introduction of an automatic time interval setter and related systems.

Electronic fuse 3VM-12 of the "Aynet" system for installation on regular OFS. Source: odetievbrony.ru
Electronic fuse 3VM-12 of the Aynet system for installation on regular OFS. Source: odetievbrony.ru

In the work of "Aynet" is not so complicated. The gunner measures the range to the target, after which the time is calculated for which the projectile will reach the enemy. It, with the help of the time interval setter, is set to the fuse in automatic mode in the process of loading a shot into the cannon. After leaving the gun, the projectile, according to the specified timing, detonates in the air above the target, covering a large area with a dense cloud of fragments. Thus, the density and other characteristics of the fragmentation field are almost tripled, and the cost of projectiles per target is reduced by half.

As an alternative to the regular use of OFS, it is quite suitable. But there are also disadvantages. "Aynet" is extremely sensitive to changes in the range to the target. From the moment the distance is measured until the shot is fired, the tank must stand still, otherwise, when it moves forward or backward, the distance will also change, and the Ainet does not automatically react to such changes. Also, the laser rangefinder has an error of plus/minus 10 meters, which can play a cruel joke when trying to destroy the enemy in the trenches - the projectile will explode either in front of the trenches or behind them without causing damage to the enemy. There are no questions about the destruction of open infantry.

A better, but at the same time expensive option for replacing regular OFS looks like 3OF82 "Telnik". This is already a radically modernized high-explosive fragmentation projectile, which in its design is significantly different from the standard ones.

High-explosive fragmentation projectile with ready-made striking elements "Telnik". Source: topwar.ru
High-explosive fragmentation projectile with ready-made striking elements "Telnik". Source: topwar.ru

At first glance, it really stands out for nothing, but its “inside” does not look like a standard one at all. So, the mass of explosive in this product was reduced to 3 kilograms, due to which an additional volume was released in the bow, which was filled with a block of ready-made striking elements (GGE) in the amount of 450 pieces. The head part of the projectile, instead of a standard fuse, is equipped with a remote contact under the marking 3V48.

Schematic representation of the Telnik projectile. Source: topwar.ru
Schematic representation of the Telnik projectile. Source: topwar.ru

The fuse is programmed similarly to the Ainet process - the distance to the target is measured and the corresponding values ​​​​are set automatically. But, given the presence of a block with ready-made striking elements, Telnik has the functionality to detonate in front of the target, and not above it, thereby covering a circle of almost 42 square meters only due to the GGE. But during the explosion, the body is also crushed, showering fragments of a huge territory. Thus, errors in measuring the distance to the target are leveled. All this allows you to increase the anti-personnel capabilities of the tank by 6-8 times. Looks interesting at least.

Unlike "Ainet" with its regular OFS, but with a new fuse, "Telnik" can detonate both directly above the target and in front of it. In addition, all other functions of the standard projectile are retained. Depending on the setting of the fuse, the contraption is capable of exploding both instantly upon impact with the surface, and with a small or large slowdown to overcome the walls of fortifications, buildings, and other things.

Absolutely all tanks with a 125-mm gun can shoot the Telnik, but after making appropriate changes to the fire control complex and installing fuse programming systems. There was information that this option is already available by default in the T-90M, but there is no real confirmation of this in the public domain.

Conclusions


What can I say? The fact that an ordinary high-explosive fragmentation projectile, like a hollow blank with explosives inside, is not at all universal and far from ideal against infantry, was known a long time ago, and not even 30 or 40 years ago. And time after time we step on this rake. A new armed conflict begins, and there - this has never happened, and here again - the infantry becomes the main enemy of the tank.

Perhaps these projectiles have already earned some fair attention, in contrast to missiles launched through the barrel, which sometimes have an exclusively decorative function?

There is no doubt that "Telnik" and, in particular, "Aynet" technologies are actually ancient and not the most effective. But even their widespread introduction will reduce the consumption of ammunition per target by at least two times or more. And a lower consumption is not only a greater number of shells left in the tank’s ammo rack, but also a shorter time to hit a target and a lower chance of getting a response, which, of course, will increase the survival of tankers on the battlefield.

Of course, such questions cannot be simply solved. Fundamental changes are required in the fire control systems of tanks and the range of ammunition, if we are talking about Telnik, which are not done at the snap of a finger. But you shouldn’t put these problems aside either - not everything with dynamic protection and sub-caliber shells can be solved on the modern battlefield.
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 05: 01
    +19
    As usual, there are developments and even passed tests, but they are not in the army, because reviews and photo reviews are more interesting for clerks in stripes. There is no talk of drank...
    1. Edward Perov
      19 December 2022 05: 12
      +15
      Thanks for the comment.

      The trouble with an alternative to fragmentation shells by 50 percent led to the creation of a bmpt. I will write about this, otherwise the cries about the fact that the tank cannot support its own pants have gone too far.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 05: 48
        +5
        It's not even about the projectile, but about the fuse and the installer. The high-explosive action of a 125 mm HE projectile is quite on par and an explosion above a trench at a height of a couple of meters will not add health to the infantry, even without fragments.
        Quote: Eduard Perov
        The trouble with an alternative to fragmentation shells by 50 percent led to the creation of a bmpt.
        But not 100 percent. Here is the viewing channel, and the cost of a shot, vertical pointing angles in the city, and the limited BC of the tank, too, you know.
        1. Edward Perov
          19 December 2022 06: 07
          +6
          It's not even about the projectile, but about the fuse and the installer.

          If we are talking about the modernization of the office, then yes. But remember "sprat" for 100mm and 115mm guns and "crow" for 125mm. Back in Soviet times, they revealed the need for a powerful anti-personnel projectile. They were sort of highly specialized. And a station wagon was required, at least in the form of a "vest".

          Here is the viewing channel, and the cost of a shot, vertical pointing angles in the city, and the tank’s limited ammo, too, you know.

          Bmpt exclusively for the city was never considered. First of all, they tried to make a universal remedy for combating a force dangerous for a tank in the face of infantry, even in the field, even in other conditions. The current "terminator", by the way, does not have huge guidance angles. Cannot shoot while standing under windows.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 06: 18
            +2
            Quote: Eduard Perov
            The current "terminator", by the way, does not have huge guidance angles. Can't shoot while standing under windows.

            Surprised, to be honest, but yes. Although 45 degrees. against 15+ - this is a lot, for a fire from the other side of the street is already enough.
            1. Civil
              Civil 19 December 2022 08: 09
              +2
              So far, there are BCs for tanks in the warehouses. Therefore, it is not worth waiting for mass production.
              1. Vladimir_2U
                Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 14: 09
                +3
                Quote: Civil
                So far, there are BCs for tanks in the warehouses.

                We are talking about a fuse and a fuse installer. The fuse is screwed in and out, with the installer it is more difficult but not fatal. You don't need to change any BC.
                1. Civil
                  Civil 19 December 2022 14: 36
                  +1
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Quote: Civil
                  So far, there are BCs for tanks in the warehouses.

                  We are talking about a fuse and a fuse installer. The fuse is screwed in and out, with the installer it is more difficult but not fatal. You don't need to change any BC.

                  So everything is simple? What hasn't been done before?
                  1. Vladimir_2U
                    Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 14: 42
                    +2
                    Quote: Civil
                    So everything is simple? What hasn't been done before?

                    Because it is not interesting what is above.
          2. insafufa
            insafufa 19 December 2022 08: 20
            0
            There have been radio fuses in artillery for a long time and there are also remote laser fuses that work at a height of up to 100 m.
            The radio fuse AR-5 Howitzer and AR-6 is designed for high-explosive fragmentation rockets M-210F and 9M28F for BM-21 combat vehicles, 9P138 and 9P139 launchers.

            AR-6 non-contact fuse, safety type, with long-range cocking. It provides air bursts of projectiles above the target at heights of up to 20m, which significantly increases the effectiveness of hitting it with fragments compared to bursts on the ground.

            The principle of operation is based on the Doppler effect.

            The radio fuse is equipped with a percussion mechanism, which is cocked when fired at a distance of 150-1300 m from the firing position. After cocking the percussion mechanism, its action is ensured in all cases when it encounters an obstacle, regardless of the installation of the fuse.

            To increase noise immunity and completely prevent air gaps over the location of friendly troops, the radio fuse has a remote device. The plant produces radio fuses with percussion action. With this setting, the fuse can only work when it hits an obstacle. The percussion mechanism is also ready for action when the fuse is installed on air gaps.

            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 14: 28
              +2
              Quote: insafufa
              There have been radio fuses in artillery for a long time and there are also remote laser fuses that work at a height of up to 100 m.

              The tank has a flat firing trajectory, such fuses will not work.
              1. insafufa
                insafufa 19 December 2022 14: 37
                0
                They work well with flat fire, but they do not work with mortar fire just when the mine falls almost vertically. On 2s3 howitzers, they hit direct fire at a distance of up to 2 km with shrapnel with needles, an excellent thing.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 14: 41
                  +2
                  Quote: insafufa
                  They work well with flat fire, but they do not work with mortar fire just when the mine falls almost vertically.

                  Howitzer fire and arrivals of MLRS missiles are mostly far from flat.
                  1. insafufa
                    insafufa 19 December 2022 15: 02
                    -2
                    Howitzer fire and arrivals of MLRS missiles are mostly far from flat.

                    So the HE shell of the tank is also not very flat, unlike sub-caliber wink
                    1. Vladimir_2U
                      Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 15: 13
                      +2
                      Quote: insafufa
                      So the HE shell of the tank is also not very flat, unlike sub-caliber

                      With an elevation angle of 15 + - degrees and an initial speed of 900 m / s (T-64-72-80-90), it cannot be different. But you seem to be confusing a radio / laser fuse with a remote one. It's far from the same.
                      1. insafufa
                        insafufa 19 December 2022 15: 34
                        0
                        But you seem to be confusing a radio / laser fuse with a remote one. It's far from the same.
                        by remote, maybe you meant a time fuse where, with a key, you set a time scale on the remote tube when it should work, it is called 90 if anything.
                        Remote fuse B-90 - mechanical, remote and shock action, fuse

                        thread type with long-range cocking (50 - 300 m from the gun). Consists of a head sleeve, shock

                        mechanism, remote (clock) mechanism and safety-detonating devices. Mouth-

                        the fuse without a scale is set using the ZI-36 key with a scale on a scale with 450 divisions

                        niami; and installation of a fuse with a scale is carried out using the ZI-37 key without a scale

                        on a scale with 88 divisions printed on the fuse head bushing. When fired from the forces of inertia

                        the clockwork starts. Upon reaching the time set on the scale, the Zhang is released

                        lo and pierces the igniter capsule. The beam of fire is transmitted to the detonator cap, and then through the

                        redacting charge - to the detonator of the bursting charge.
                      2. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 15: 51
                        +2
                        Quote: insafufa
                        remote maybe you meant a time fuse where with a key you set a time scale on the remote tube when it should work it is called at 90 if that

                        Yes, this is a remote fuse - only a mechanical one, and even with a manual installation, it is clear what kind of detonation accuracy and installation efficiency. But in the article, we are talking about ELECTRONIC remote fuses! Are you writing about NON-CONTACT radio / laser
                      3. insafufa
                        insafufa 20 December 2022 07: 34
                        +1
                        Are you writing about NON-CONTACT radio / laser
                        so they are also electronic and can be set to various modes from contact detonation to detonation at a given height and triggering from an object in the air. So the Turks implemented a very simple version of the fuse in artillery with the installation of the emitter at an angle of 15 degrees from the longitudinal axis of the projectile, the ballistics of the projectile is close to howitzer due to the reduced propellant charge. Here is the BMP -3 projectile cherry with a proximity fuse
                        A new high-explosive fragmentation projectile 2015UOF3-19 Cherry-1 for the 1-mm cannon-launcher, which is armed with the BMP-100, was presented at the RAE-3 exhibition of weapons and ammunition in Nizhny Tagil. The new ammunition has an area of ​​​​destruction of 360 square meters.

                        "We have developed a special steel-crushing thin-walled projectile, put more explosives, increased the area of ​​destruction from about 168 to 360 square meters. Most importantly, we have adopted it. We will officially produce and sell Cherry with non-contact detonation," the representative of the developer told the RIA agency News.

                        This munition has no analogues on the world market, in connection with which the manufacturers predict to sell it to foreign buyers who have in their arsenals Russian armored vehicles armed with a 100-mm cannon / launcher 2A70 - BTR-90, BMP-3 and BMD-4.

                        So in Chechnya, direct fire was fired from Tunguska with missiles, the explosion took place at a height of 5m above the position of the enemy of the ATGM crew and remained there. There is also a non-contact fuse
                      4. Vladimir_2U
                        Vladimir_2U 20 December 2022 08: 52
                        +1
                        Quote: insafufa
                        so they are also electronic and can be set to various modes from contact detonation to detonation at a given height and triggering from an object in the air.

                        And the difference between a remote and non-contact fuse is not that they are electronic non-electronic, but that the remote fuse is triggered by a delay time set in advance. And the non-contact one is triggered by ITS sensor when approaching the target or the ground.
                        What is unclear?
                        PS
                        Here is the BMP -3 projectile cherry with a proximity fuse
                        Not a fuse, but a "non-contact detonation".
                      5. insafufa
                        insafufa 20 December 2022 10: 14
                        -1
                        What is unclear?
                        We are arguing about concepts or terms
                        PS
                        What the hell is the difference if the enemy is still hit
                      6. karabas-barabas
                        karabas-barabas 27 December 2022 19: 33
                        0
                        In modern NATO systems, from 25mm, programmable BCs are used. Their principle of operation is that the rangefinder sets the distance to the projectile, the operator selects the option of detonation, in front of the target, directly on the target, for example, a wall, or, for example, breaking through a wall and detonating behind it. The projectile then leaves the barrel and counts the revolutions around its axis, that is, there are no sensors on the projectile itself. Each revolution around the axis = a certain distance. But after all, domestic shells, in addition to accuracy, lack striking elements. Modern projectiles carry hundreds or thousands of tungsten balls, which, when dispersed, hit everything at a speed of 8 km / s, and each of them has a strong armor-piercing effect. I saw a photo of either the Urals, or the Tiger, which was hit with such ammunition, so everything is in holes, even the engine block was pierced.
          3. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 14: 26
            +1
            Quote: Eduard Perov
            But remember "sprat" for 100mm and 115mm guns and "crow" for 125mm.

            I looked at the info about the Raven, thanks, I was not in the know, but I think that it is ineffective against trenches even with a remote fuse, the point is a small charge and tank fire persistence.
          4. Timur_kz
            Timur_kz 19 December 2022 20: 16
            +1
            Isn't it easier to put on an AGS tank? You can Balkan 40 mm. Cheap and cheerful. Fill trenches and squares. Moreover, control can be transferred to the commander on a remote turret - a faster reaction to a threat.
          5. avg
            avg 19 December 2022 23: 31
            +1
            So far, organizational methods can be applied. For example, one tank in a platoon or a platoon in a company should have an FCS capable of using the necessary b / p.
      2. Barberry25
        Barberry25 19 December 2022 11: 41
        +1
        BMPT appeared, as it were, due to the fact that the tank has a limited ammo, which does not allow it to put 1-2 shells on each ATGM or RPG crew.
      3. Eule
        Eule 19 December 2022 15: 00
        -2
        And where is the good old mechanical clock-type remote tube, with divergent weights and clockwork? The tube installer was invented back in the Second World War, the correction for the movement of the tank can simply be calculated.
        1. insafufa
          insafufa 19 December 2022 15: 11
          +3

          eule (Alexey)
          Today, 15: 00

          0
          And where is the good old mechanical clock-type remote tube, with divergent weights and clockwork? The tube installer was invented back in the Second World War, the correction for the movement of the tank can simply be calculated.

          So they have nowhere to go at ARTA, the installation goes manually
    2. your1970
      your1970 19 December 2022 08: 00
      +2
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      As usual, there are developments and even passed tests, but they are not in the army, because reviews and photo reviews are more interesting for clerks in stripes. There is no talk of drank...

      How can you kick the clerks without kicking .... and what’s on millionths in the supply of shells, you can cut more due to their high cost, this is clear to everyone ....

      The fact that Telnik is a slightly improved banal SHRAPNEL - which more than 100 years- not?
      Grandfather, an artilleryman, said that only a few officers were able to shoot shrapnel in the regiment, well, 1.
      But when the distance was determined accurately, it was more effective than machine guns.
      In the German trenches, they survived only in dugouts and minks, in open areas they mowed like a scythe
      There was only one problem - in the ability to shoot it
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 19 December 2022 10: 10
        +3
        There was only one problem - in the ability to shoot it

        Modern technologies allow you to shoot well, leveling the human factor.
        In the German trenches, they survived only in dugouts and minks, in open areas they mowed like a scythe

        The network has a video of the shelling of our platoon stronghold with such ammunition. In the comments, opinions were divided, either a Himars missile strike with ready-made lethal elements, or an artillery shell. But control from a drone showed more than 10 dead soldiers in the trenches. The question is that our enemy has such shells, but we do not.
        1. your1970
          your1970 19 December 2022 11: 38
          +3
          Quote: glory1974
          The question is that our enemy has such shells, but we do not.
          - and we have
          "M.: Military publishing house, 1976 (!!!). — 16 s.
          This Technical Description and Operating Instructions are intended to study the design and proper operation of 152-mm ZVSH2, ZVSH5 rounds with a projectile filled with ZSH2 swept elements, and are an addition to the service manuals “152-mm howitzer-gun mod. 1937 and 122 mm gun mod. 1931/37" and "152-mm gun-howitzer D-20".
          The ZVSH2, ZVSH5 rounds with the ZSH2 projectile are included in the ammunition load of the 152-mm howitzer gun mod. 1937 and 152-mm D-20 howitzer guns and are designed to defeat openly located enemy manpower at the entire firing range.
          For 2S3, D-1, and D-30 definitely there - dragged in 1988 on an urgent basis in Kushka
          1. skeptic
            skeptic 19 December 2022 12: 07
            +1
            Quote: your1970
            For 2S3, D-1, and D-30 there are definitely

            There was a trifle left - to have, and use on the front line, in sufficient quantities.
            1. your1970
              your1970 19 December 2022 14: 16
              +1
              Quote: skeptic
              Quote: your1970
              For 2S3, D-1, and D-30 there are definitely

              There was a trifle left - to have, and use on the front line, in sufficient quantities.

              Well, these are not thermal imagers, in the absence of which you can spin the hype.
              Ordinary projectile...
              And yes, if there is a 2S3, then it shoots something at the front line. It may well be that ZSh2 too ...
        2. Barberry25
          Barberry25 19 December 2022 11: 43
          +1
          Well, in general, remote fuses are and are used, it was back in the summer of a video of how then the LDNR militias installed remote fuses on artillery shells
      2. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 19 December 2022 14: 16
        +1
        Quote: your1970
        How can you kick the clerks without kicking .... and the fact that you can cut more on millions of shells due to their high cost is understandable to everyone ....

        The projectile is not a walkie-talkie, the nameplate cannot be re-glued into Chinese. Especially on the fuse ...
        Quote: your1970
        The fact that Telnik is a slightly improved banal SHRAPNEL - which is more than 100 years old - isn't it?
        And the Tu-160 is a slightly improved "Ilya Muromets" by Sikorsky.

        Quote: your1970
        There was only one problem - in the ability to shoot it

        The problem was in determining the distance and accuracy of the tube installation. With lasers and electronics, these problems were leveled.
  2. tsvetahaki
    tsvetahaki 19 December 2022 05: 11
    0
    Yes, couch analysts understand the need for such shells - and indeed, something from the 21st century ...
    However, parquet generals - no. And it's not for us, sofas, to teach them.
    1. Edward Perov
      19 December 2022 05: 22
      +6
      Yes, couch analysts understand the need for such shells - and indeed, something from the 21st century ...

      The need is clear not only to couch analysts, but also to the tankers themselves. I won't say anything about the generals.

      What is the saddest thing, "vest" and "aynet" - the level of technology 40 years ago. And even this "litter" of a mammoth is much better than more ancient blanks with explosives, the history of which stretches from time immemorial.
  3. Krugov
    Krugov 19 December 2022 06: 43
    +4
    I'm sorry, but shrapnel has not been canceled since the century before last! Of course, instead of an electronic fuse, then there was a powder retarder with a burning time setting, another question (I foresee in advance) is how to set it in time, taking into account the automatic loader. Although shrapnel ammunition 3Sh7 "Raven" is included in the BK T-80 and T-90!
    1. novel66
      novel66 19 December 2022 08: 47
      +3
      Yashka also taught the artilleryman - "Sight 15 tube 20" Delov something
  4. Ivanov IV
    Ivanov IV 19 December 2022 06: 50
    +3
    If I'm not mistaken, then according to the results of the Syrian company, the question was raised about the development of a specialized howitzer tank for urban battles.
    We talked and forgot. But the problem remained.
    And the Author did not mention the "shrapnel" BC. Maybe "new" is a well-forgotten old?
    And what about the French shells that explode overhead above the ground?
    1. svp67
      svp67 19 December 2022 07: 40
      +2
      Quote: Ivanov IV
      specialized tank-howitzer for urban battles.

      Actually, "assault guns" fought in full during World War II
      1. Sancho_SP
        Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 10: 03
        +1
        The assault gun is a compromise undertank. Actually, these guns differed from the tank only in the absence of a turret and less versatility.
        1. svp67
          svp67 19 December 2022 10: 10
          +2
          Quote: Sancho_SP
          The assault gun is a compromise undertank.

          But so is the tank, this is NEDOSAU. The assault gun is perfectly sharpened for operations against fortified enemy positions on the front line.
          By the way, in the West, our IS-2 is classified as an "assault gun"
          1. Sancho_SP
            Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 10: 13
            0
            And what place is the tank not imprisoned now? The tanks are armed with the largest direct fire weapons and the most heavily armored. Anything larger is long-range artillery, not intended for close combat.
            1. svp67
              svp67 19 December 2022 10: 16
              +3
              Quote: Sancho_SP
              And what place is the tank not imprisoned now?

              The aiming angles of the gun and the power of the ammunition. If now the idea of ​​​​an "assault gun" were to be embodied in metal, then it would obviously have a gun of caliber 152 ... 155 and higher, as well as other vertical aiming angles than a tank, with increased armor
              1. Sancho_SP
                Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 10: 20
                0
                The very idea of ​​putting a 152-mm cannon in a tank has been circulating for 100 years, but, for some reason, they don’t do it.

                As for the corners, which assault gun did better with this than the same T-72? For obvious reasons, the tank has no problems with horizontal angles. With vertical ones - it is necessary to raise the gun higher, Msta will work.
                1. svp67
                  svp67 19 December 2022 11: 39
                  +2
                  Quote: Sancho_SP
                  As for the corners, which assault gun did better with this than the same T-72?


                  1. Eule
                    Eule 19 December 2022 15: 09
                    +1
                    Sturmtigr is an interesting car. But now the sailors will resist and will interfere with arming the RBU with land equipment.
                    Quote: Sancho_SP
                    put a 152-mm cannon into the tank, it has been wandering for 100 years, but, for some reason

                    Which is called the weight of the projectile, barely feasible for a person. And to install an industrial manipulator - so far no one thinks for which 100 kg is calculated, and the speed and accuracy of movements do not depend on anything.
                  2. Sancho_SP
                    Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 16: 16
                    +1
                    It's funny, but I doubt that it can be fired straight up from it)
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 19 December 2022 16: 59
                      +1
                      Quote: Sancho_SP
                      Funny

                      funny different
                      Quote: Sancho_SP
                      it can be fired straight up

                      You, choose one thing or direct fire, or indirect fire. These are different types of shooting.
                2. your1970
                  your1970 19 December 2022 11: 40
                  0
                  Quote: Sancho_SP
                  The very idea of ​​putting a 152-mm cannon in a tank has been circulating for 100 years, but, for some reason, they don’t do it.

                  Well, if they don't do it, they did it.
                  KV-2, for example, is quite serial, and quite a lot released ...
                  1. Sancho_SP
                    Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 16: 20
                    +2
                    And as a result of the war, they stopped doing something. And instead of it they began to make (I) SU-152, which was replaced by purely artillery, not assault, systems.
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 19 December 2022 17: 01
                      +1
                      Quote: Sancho_SP
                      (I) SU-152, which was replaced by purely artillery, not assault, systems.

                      No, these are just as good assault systems as our ISU-122, and the SU-122 and SU-122 \ 54 were generally created as assault systems, although the latter could also be used as an anti-tank

                      1. Sancho_SP
                        Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 22: 04
                        0
                        And these guys did not replace the ISU-152, the ISU-152 remained in service longer.

                        ISU-122 - ersatz IS-2(3), with the same gun.
                        SU-122/54 did nothing at all, can be considered a prototype. Which is logical, she had no advantage over the T-62. The T-64 already surpassed all of them in all respects.

                        ISU-152 replaced, and then not as an assault weapon, only Msta.
                    2. your1970
                      your1970 19 December 2022 17: 52
                      -1
                      Quote: Sancho_SP
                      And as a result of the war, they stopped doing something

                      And they stopped doing the KV-1, due to design imperfections and the lack of a reserve for modernization. And what? Did it cancel the idea of ​​a tank or the very fact of the existence of a fairly massive KV-2?
                      1. Sancho_SP
                        Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 21: 14
                        0
                        This canceled the idea of ​​a tank with a 152 mm gun. BTs were even more massive, but they also did not pass the test of the war.

                        The end of the war - IS-2. Curiously, already in the mass and dimensions of the MBT. Including caliber.
    2. Sancho_SP
      Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 09: 46
      +1
      Shrapnel is, by and large, ready-made submunitions with a very small amount of explosives. Such a projectile is not universal and you will have to have two or more in the stowage instead of one type of projectile.
      1. stankow
        stankow 20 December 2022 12: 46
        +2
        Shrapnel has no explosives at all. Only a striking charge. And what is too narrow a scope - vyi owls. right!
  5. Shark Lover
    Shark Lover 19 December 2022 08: 01
    +1
    Who will install the cap and how will it be installed? Install at the time of loading the BC into the tank? Then you need to make another mark for such shells (I don’t know what it’s called, when choosing the type of shell from the AZ. I loaded the machine myself, I remember the designations were)
    1. Sancho_SP
      Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 10: 05
      +1
      It is assumed that a remote fuse is placed on all shells in general, and how to program it is decided immediately before the shot.
  6. Boris55
    Boris55 19 December 2022 08: 10
    +2
    Quote: E. Perov
    and when will we change their shells?

    When the old ones run out, that's when we will.
  7. Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 09: 43
    +5
    There are many but to the events described:

    1. In an open field, it is not recommended to drive a tank up to enemy trenches without preliminary processing by artillery. The range of the anti-tank missile system is more than 5 km, and the accuracy is many times higher than a tank gun at such a distance. But at the range of an RPG shot, a conventional projectile is already enough.

    2. The standard high-explosive fragmentation projectile is universal. By reducing the explosive charge in favor of the fragmentation component, we reduce this versatility.

    3. A programmable fuse is, of course, good. There is no question “should or not”, there is an eternal problem with electronics.
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 19 December 2022 10: 15
      0
      The standard high-explosive fragmentation projectile is universal. By reducing the explosive charge in favor of the fragmentation component, we reduce this versatility.

      Agree. But the special is better than the universal. In some situations, a special projectile is preferable. For example, cover a certain area where an ATGM launch is detected.
      1. Sancho_SP
        Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 10: 23
        +4
        Special is always better, but not always there)

        The tank's ammunition load is not that big, if you spawn more than five different types of shells, then there will be 5 pieces of each type. Although, now how many types already? 4 exactly.
        1. vadimtt
          vadimtt 19 December 2022 13: 12
          +1
          It turns out that the rocket is not needed, instead of it, shrapnel with programming. And for missiles, a bunch of launchers from ten orders of magnitude cheaper than a tank and up to Chrysanthemum, with a rocket, with which a tank one didn’t even lie around in the maternity hospital laughing
          1. Sancho_SP
            Sancho_SP 19 December 2022 16: 24
            +1
            A missile is needed, but with a sufficient number of those missiles, a cumulative projectile is not needed.

            If there were those missiles in unlimited quantities with fragmentation charges, the office might not be needed either. Price tag, however.
  8. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 19 December 2022 10: 13
    +1
    I don’t understand ... the author is either shy, or "sclerosing" about the classification of the projectile he writes about! Somehow he avoids using the "term": "Multipurpose" ... or "Fragmentation-beam" projectile! I once read an article where the author claimed that the idea of ​​a fragmentation-beam projectile belongs to Russia, namely to a certain Odintsov (I’m not sure that he “pronounced” his last name for sure ...) The idea was met with hostility ... called nonsense , but, nevertheless, supported by one "high-ranking" "comrade"! They began to develop ... there was a proposal to patent abroad, but the proposal was rejected: they say, to disgrace yourself before such stupidity abroad! However, the idea of ​​​​a fragmentation-beam projectile interested the "wild west"! And off we go! Since the 90s of the last century, several types of multi-purpose shells have been developed ... as their own "know-how"! For example, in the USA there are M830A1, M908, XM1147 (AMP) shells ... Deutsche -DM11, in Israel - M329 ... By the way, Israel has an interesting cluster-type tank projectile with 6 submunitions, specially designed to destroy anti-tank systems and infantry in the trenches ... but it can also be used as a "monoblock" HE!
    1. your1970
      your1970 19 December 2022 12: 25
      +3
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      The idea was met "with hostility" ... called nonsense, but, nevertheless, supported by one "high-ranking" "comrade"! They began to develop ... there was a proposal to patent abroad, but the proposal was rejected: they say, to disgrace yourself before such stupidity abroad!

      ZSH2 - arrows in 152 mm. Loaded bk in 1988 on an urgent basis in Kushka
  9. Wildcat
    Wildcat 19 December 2022 10: 44
    0
    But, given the presence of a block with ready-made striking elements, Telnik has the functionality to detonate in front of the target, and not above it, thereby covering a circle of almost 42 square meters only due to the GGE.

    No matter how "analogue", so you have to show what a good thing it is - GGE on the standard American M1147


    https://youtu.be/yEAYNX_UCjw

    By the way, the problem of "distance error" (the direction is almost always known exactly) was solved by cunning Middle Eastern residents by detonating a 3-part projectile. The local public dispersed them, so I don’t know if there is such an APAM in Merkava4 packs or not.

    Absolutely all tanks with a 125-mm gun can shoot the Telnik, but after making appropriate changes to the fire control complex and installing fuse programming systems.
    The SLA needs to be changed, of course, and preferably to one that can, for example, shoot down helicopters. IMHO, there should be no problems with UAVs either.

    And now - dancing!
    Tank dances!
    As they say for the last seventy years, "in terms of ballet, we are ahead of the rest."


    2021, preparations for 2022 are in full swing, IMHO.
    1. The popuas
      The popuas 19 December 2022 12: 37
      +1
      My friend has a rank in ballroom dancing ... yes so this did not prevent him from serving in the special forces hi
      1. vadimtt
        vadimtt 19 December 2022 13: 16
        +2
        Rather, it even helped, coordination, rhythm and OFP are held in high esteem everywhere laughing
      2. Wildcat
        Wildcat 19 December 2022 13: 37
        +4
        That's right, "carry the round, roll the square" - dancers in the special forces, the Ministry of Emergency Situations - in the Ministry of Defense, "Krishnaites in the chemical troops" - good

      3. stankow
        stankow 20 December 2022 12: 56
        +1
        I have an MS in ballroom dancing. And he served in the artillery. Both there and in dancing, great growth is appreciated wink
  10. Centurion70
    Centurion70 19 December 2022 11: 52
    +4
    The problem in the article is reflected correctly, but the author, like many others, forgets one important truth, no one fights alone. Modern combat is the interaction of various branches and types of armed forces and means of destruction. So, "shedding tears about shells for a specific tank gun" is certainly interesting, but the main problem is the insufficient organization of the interaction of forces and means. And this is the archival moment of the training of command personnel ...
  11. Olegsv
    Olegsv 19 December 2022 14: 01
    +1
    MO is not interested in such things. They think in terms of the times of the Second World War.
  12. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 19 December 2022 15: 29
    +2
    Against concrete and pillboxes, you can shoot concrete-piercing shells with a bottom fuse.
    Against infantry in trenches - shrapnel and OFS on ricochets.
    All this has been known since the First World War and no prodigy ammunition, which is more expensive than the gun itself, should be taken into account.
  13. certero
    certero 19 December 2022 18: 48
    0

    And this is how the Western BBC illustrates our tanks. They are good at propaganda
  14. Oleg Ogorod
    Oleg Ogorod 19 December 2022 19: 46
    0
    Hitting the trenches with infantry from a tank is not a zer gud.
    Correctly said, the tank ammunition is not migrants in non-rubber.
    The trenches should be hit by artillery in the form of howitzers from a greater distance. And this requires efficiency in the management of various types of troops. In order for the observer from the front line to see where arte needed to work, he poked a place on the map-tablet with his finger, after a few seconds the howitzers from the rear sent a festive gingerbread. They need a few seconds to automatically direct the gun and for the duration of the projectile flight.

    But life is different.

    The figure shows a schematized topographic map of the area illustrating the following situation: the target C (a conditional enemy mortar battery) is barred from direct observation from a firing position by a slope of 150,4 height and coniferous forest, therefore, observation is carried out from CNP on a flat area, from where the target is clearly visible. With the help of an artillery compass and a range finder, a reconnaissance spotter of artillery fire determines the range D1 = 1500 m and the directional angle α ≈ 56-56.
    By telephone or radio, this information is transmitted to the computer department, if it is not located directly at the KNP. The gunner-computer, knowing the coordinates of the target, the KNP and the OP, calculates the range D2 and the rotation from the main direction of fire β for his guns (for example, in Fig. 1 D2 = 2700 m, β ≈ 3-40); from the firing tables, it takes into account corrections for weather conditions, wear of gun barrels, ammunition temperature and, as a result, receives the settings of the sight and fuses (the well-known phrase of Yashka the gunner "Tube 15, sight 120!" from the comedy "Wedding in Malinovka"). This problem is solved with the use of the PUO device. The output data is reported to the gun commanders, who, in turn, after recalculating the rotation settings for their gun, give a command to the gunners, loaders, chargers and projectiles for firing.

    If the target is not hit by the first shot, then the rangefinder and the observer at the KNP report how much the shell (mine) explosion deviated along the front, depth and, if necessary, in height. For example, undershoot 200, right 50 (Fig. 2). This information is reported to the calculator, and he, using a fire control device (FCD) or a computer (tablet), reports the adjusted settings to the calculations of the guns. In the event of a second miss, a second adjustment is made, and when hit, shooting begins to kill, suppress or destroy the target.

    Well, or in other words:

    The main gun is given the main direction of fire in one of the following ways:
    according to the sight (compass) of the car of the senior officer of the battery, oriented along the directional angle in the main direction of fire;
    according to a predetermined goniometer;
    by milestones.
    When the gun is given the main direction of fire, a level of 30-00 is set on the sights, an elevation angle of 200 thousand is given to the barrel (a sight for an average firing range), level bubbles are displayed in the middle, the panorama head is turned towards the sightfinder (compass).
    To give the main gun the main direction of fire to the sight (compass), oriented in the main direction along the directional angle, the senior battery officer:
    counting on goniometric ring and drum;

    commands the received reading as a goniometer for aiming at the sight (compass): “Basic 00-00, aim at the sight (compass)”; this work is performed twice by the senior officer of the battery.

    The gun commander repeats the command. The gunner, on this command, installs the commanded goniometer and aims the gun, aligning the vertical line of the panorama grid with the center of the sighting monocular (compass).

    Upon completion of the aiming, the gunner reports to the gun commander: "Done." The commander of the gun, having checked the correctness of the aiming, orders the gunner to check in on the aiming points and reports: “The main is ready. By main 00-00. By spare OO-OO.

    34. To give the main gun the main direction of fire according to a predetermined goniometer, the senior officer of the battery, indicating the point of aiming to the commander of the gun, commands, for example: “Main 56-75, aim at the milestone, which is on the left behind.”

    The gun commander repeats the command, for example: "56-75, point at the milestone, which is on the left behind."

    The gunner repeats the commanded protractor, sets it on the panorama, working as a rotary rotary mechanism of the gun, directs the crosshair of the panorama to the specified aiming point and reports: “Done”. The commander of the gun, after checking the tip, reports: "The main thing is ready."

    35. When preparing firing positions in advance, the main direction of fire can be hung on the ground from the point of standing of the main gun with two milestones. The far milestone is set at a distance of 40-80 m from the gun, the near one is exactly in the middle.

    To give the main gun the main direction of fire at the milestones, the senior battery officer commands: "Main 30-00, aim at the far milestone."
    The commander of the gun commands: "XNUMX-XNUMX, aim at a distant milestone." The gunner executes the command; if the near milestone is in alignment with the far one, reports: “Done”; if the near milestone is not in the target, then the gunner is marked by the near milestone, points to the far one and reports: “Done”.

    The commander of the gun, having checked the aiming, orders the gunner to check in on the aiming points and reports: “The main is ready. By the main 00-00. By spare OO-OO.

    After giving the main gun the main direction of fire, the senior officer of the battery records the goniometers of the main gun

    by aiming points and builds a parallel fan of the battery in one of the following ways:

    according to the sight of the car (compass) of the senior officer of the battery, oriented in the main direction of fire;

    on the main gun;

    by heavenly light.
  15. usm5
    usm5 19 December 2022 22: 46
    0
    Of course the author is right. You can improve endlessly. Even better, put a distance meter and detonate the projectile a meter from the approaching obstacle. And why did they forget about the thermo-baric charge? It will be even more effective against infantry in cover. In fact, the organization of the battle is the effective interaction of the necessary specialized means. Artillery and mortars should work against infantry in shelters. If, of course, T62 or even T55 tanks are used as artillery that hits enemy infantry from closed positions, then it makes economic sense to refine the fire control system and shells, since illiquid assets are disposed of and we get a gun well protected from splinters and bullets. But there are also economic issues, in a war they are extremely important, since all this costs concrete money. And you and I have already witnessed how the USSR, as a result of the arms race, "was left without pants" and safely collapsed.
  16. dfk-80
    dfk-80 20 December 2022 06: 43
    +3
    Tsakhal soldered a mortar to the tank a long time ago - at close range it will be more rational than any OFS: the shot is cheaper, and the trajectory is howitzer, and the barrel is not consumed along with the ammo.
    Organizational alternative: obligatory cover of the tank with a quadric and a mortar / howitzer.
  17. Dimax-nemo
    Dimax-nemo 20 December 2022 08: 49
    +2
    I do not want to say that the aforementioned Telnik and Ainet do not need to be dealt with, of course, they are necessary. But, I remind the author that "some" had 120-mm smooth-bore tank guns in their ammunition for quite a long time and had no OFS (however, like ATGMs). And nothing bothered them at that very time.
  18. kamakama
    kamakama 20 December 2022 19: 21
    +2
    Did the author invent the ignition tube and the shrapnel projectile?
  19. iouris
    iouris 20 December 2022 20: 46
    +2
    If amateurs (with all due respect) throw in such articles, then the specialized research institute, branch science has been destroyed. Down to the foundation. And why do tank troops exist? It's naughty.
  20. vlad106
    vlad106 24 December 2022 10: 12
    -1
    We are talking about the modernization of our tanks for SVO, and when will we change their shells?

    Probably when the chief minister gets tired of advertising tank biathlon
  21. vh48905
    vh48905 25 December 2022 17: 18
    0
    Everything has already been thought of before us. To destroy tanks, you need an arrow-shaped core, and to defeat infantry, you need an OFS of large mass, thin-walled, with a large amount of explosives (or with arrow-shaped striking elements), with an initial speed of about 400 m / s.
    Needed: a laser rangefinder (already available), a projectile velocity meter during takeoff (induction), induction input of the time of projectile detonation on the trajectory (built-in timer in the projectile). All this is not very difficult to implement (from an engineering point of view). But I'm not sure that we still have at least one plant for the production of shells and at least one design bureau for the development of these shells.
  22. Bogalex
    Bogalex 4 January 2023 23: 21
    0
    and when will we change their shells?

    Excuse me, but change to what?