Military Review

And what about Bakhmut and Artyomovsk?

136
And what about Bakhmut and Artyomovsk?

Actually, what should we have with Bakhmut or Artyomovsk? And in general - nothing. This settlement does not exist and you can simply forget about it, because a little more, and only the name on the map and ruins will remain of it.


Many will now say - and this is war. It happens there.

Yes, this is war. And in a war, it happens just like that, that in the end there will be nothing left of the town, for which the two sides seriously grabbed. And in the words of one literary character, "the living will envy the dead."


We agree with those who believe that something is happening in Artyomovsk that stands out from the general picture of the autumn-winter standing of troops on the Dnieper. There is just a fierce meat grinder going on, and it has been going on for a long time.

Many who think in stories already really compare Artyomovsk with Verdun. Perhaps, in terms of the number of victims, it is too much, but in terms of the intensity of passions, it is in no way inferior.

The question arises: why?

Because too many political interests converged around a small (70 thousand people) town.

There is a minimum of military interests here, Artyomovsk does not occupy such a strategically important position as, say, Izyum, abandoned by Russian troops in the summer. Yes, important roads pass through Artyomovsk - to Slavyansk, Kramatorsk, Konstantinovka and Seversk. However, taking this transport hub is not guarantees further offensive in these directions, especially since the direction is really well covered from the north by the Kramatorsk-Slavic fortified area, and from the west by Zaporozhye.


Map TG-channel "Rybar"

Now, if Russia hadn’t abandoned Izyum, then yes, it would have been very available the option of encircling the troops of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in Slavyansk and Kramatorsk and the further liberation of a very decent area of ​​the Donetsk region.

Then what is the point of these attacks?

There are three meanings, and they are all political


Meaning first. Ukrainian It is very important for Ukraine to show that everything, Russia has run out of steam and is no longer capable of anything. Ukraine is able to protect its cities and lands, even if they have been turned into ashes. And in such a situation, if we add more military assistance and money, then the Russian army will roll further, towards the sea.

The logic is quite traceable, the Ukrainians themselves say that the city has no strategic importance, but they will defend it to the limit.

There is one nuance here, but we'll talk about it a little lower.

The meaning of the second. Donetsk Here everything is also transparent: the Donetsk people need to move the line of defense away from Donetsk, as long as at least something remains from the city. And the further they move the front line, the greater the possibility that there will be fewer flights and more from Donetsk than from Bakhmut.

Meaning three. Prigozhinsky Hand in hand for Artyomovsk, both the forces of the DPR and the Wagner detachments are fighting. We emphasize here that it is two highly motivated and well trained forces. That is why there is such a hell and that both sides have something to fight for, moreover, regardless of the losses.

But if Artyomovsk is occupied, Prigozhin, who has already repeatedly criticized the command of the Russian army (quite deservedly), can significantly strengthen his position in Putin's eyes, showing that in terms of successful operations, he understands more than some with stars and stripes.

Considering that Prigozhin has everything for this, this is quite a viable option.

We allow ourselves to leave without comment Prigozhin's statement that the Wagner forces near Bakhmut are grinding the resources of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Prigozhin can afford to make any statements, but the fact that the forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are grinding while on the defensive - we just allow ourselves to remain silent about this. As well as quite reasonably, we will ignore the statements that the ratio of losses on the advancing Russian side and the defending Ukrainian side is 1 to 8. Let this remain on the conscience of those who made these statements.

"Goal of prestige"


And for Moscow, Artemovsk at the end of the year will become the very “goal of prestige” that the team scores, which seems to have lost the first half with a bang.

As for the nuance that we talked about above, it is simple: both sides simply grind each other into powder. And while the war for Artyomovsk is going on, it is unlikely that the Ukrainians will move anywhere else, and it is unlikely that the 40-strong Russian group of troops will be weakened.

The case is just a war for some to a victorious end, for the second ... For the second, how will it turn out.

But the Armed Forces of Ukraine will not succeed in abandoning Artyomovsk, as they left Lisichansk. It so happened that the Ukrainian command dragged itself into the battles on the Artyomovsk-Soledar-Seversk line, continuing to pump monstrous human and technical resources there. Meanwhile, the connection between Artemovsk and Soledar is very unpleasant, especially considering that our Soledar is also under a little pressure.

And here can it will turn out (or maybe not) a situation where the well-fortified line Slavyansk - Kramatorsk will be in a not very pleasant situation. Actually, on the line Lisichansk-Soledar-Artemovsk left by the Armed Forces of Ukraine, given the presence of transport arteries (yes, the railway tracks there were destroyed, but everything is being repaired), Russian troops will be able to organize a support platform for the further development of the offensive against the Slavyansk-Kramatorsk conglomerate.

Thus, it seems to be a local operation to capture a small settlement can become a potential strategic operation. With the loss of Artyomovsk, the front, of course, will not collapse, but how events can begin to develop are separate questions.

Certain perspective, of course, is available. And the battles for Artyomovsk will go on until one of the parties decides to withdraw, as the Ukrainians did with Lisichansk. The city also did not have a strategic position, but it cost the Armed Forces of Ukraine considerable losses.

Let's see how it will be with Artyomovsk, because indeed, the political desire to create a victory at the front can give rise to far-reaching consequences.

However, it is possible that there will be no consequences. Yes, we got a lot under the question mark, but such is the situation. Very ambiguous and cruel.

But in any case, Artemovsk / Bakhmut has already become the history of this war.
Author:
136 comments
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  1. saigon
    saigon 19 December 2022 04: 59
    +23
    Yes, something is right, something raises questions.
    Losses in this operation are a slippery thing, and if we take into account the superiority in artillery in the Artemovsk region, then it is possible that they successfully endure the APU there.
    Pushing Nazi (NATO) artillery away from Donetsk is also true.
    The question is, why do bridges across the Dnieper still exist?
    Why is there no isolation of the database area from supplying the enemy with a word? There are still many questions.
    1. pogis
      pogis 19 December 2022 05: 25
      -5
      Bridges either cannot (which is doubtful), or will blow up before the start of a strategic offensive, but you still have to destroy them!
      1. Li17
        Li17 19 December 2022 06: 24
        +48
        Quote: pogis
        or rush before the start of a strategic offensive

        Oh, I beg you! Yes, about the beginning of the "great victory", a successful offensive, a terrible defeat, the presence of unexpected plans, there is no need to attract a full-fledged army .., the destruction of air defense, aviation. A fair punishment for the people of Azov and all criminals, and only about the care and preparation of resources ... I took off my rose-colored glasses a long time ago, especially after the first Chechnya and its famous Grachev breakthrough by one airborne regiment!
        1. Civil
          Civil 19 December 2022 08: 20
          +8
          "Battle" for mountains of rubble.
          1. skeptick2
            skeptick2 19 December 2022 09: 43
            +19
            Quote: Civil
            "Battle" for mountains of rubble

            So.
            But the authorities need to show victory in the Artemovsk / Bakhmut region, more precisely, in the region of what is left of them. Need a nosebleed.
            The fact that this victory is unlikely to compensate in the minds and memory of Russians for the loss of Izyum, Balakleya, Liman, Kherson, the retreat from Kyiv, Chernigov and Sumy is of little concern to the authorities.
            Must show at least something.
            Otherwise, a reasonable question may arise: why was it necessary to tear 300000 mobiles from work? And where are the results of this mobilization at the front?
            1. filibuster
              filibuster 19 December 2022 10: 57
              +2
              Yes, it’s not regrettable, but most likely there is a goal, regardless of anything, to take Artemovsk before the end of this year, or until February 24 next year, otherwise Putin will have nothing to show as successes.
            2. Edward Kravchenko
              Edward Kravchenko 20 December 2022 09: 47
              +14
              Here the question is: "Where will the war end"? It's "where", not "when". Minimum program - Donetsk and Lugansk regions + land corridor to the Crimea. Dill also understand this, and therefore they destroy the cities of Donbass, under the net. To leave Russia alone ruins.
            3. gsev
              gsev 21 December 2022 19: 21
              -3
              Quote from: skeptick2
              You have to show something.

              Putin and Gerasimov are adequate people. Victory in a war is determined by the losses of the parties and the resources they have. So far, Russia is stepping up strikes against Ukraine's energy sector and neutralizing its numerical superiority with active defense. We will be able to inflict irreparable losses on the Armed Forces of Ukraine for 50 years; we will wean the Petliurists from trying to turn Russians into slaves. This war will be decided by drones and means of targeting for high-precision weapons. Vagner Prigozhina will not change anything if Russia cannot develop the production of drones and aerial reconnaissance equipment in cooperation with the DPRK, China, Belarus and Iran
          2. Pantsuy
            Pantsuy 19 December 2022 15: 33
            +3
            Quote: Civil
            "Battle" for mountains of rubble.

            The authorities of the DPR said that Popasnaya would most likely not be restored - it makes no sense. About Artemovsk, in this case, in general, you can not even stutter. And this is also, for good, the fighting did not even begin in the city itself.
          3. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 19 December 2022 23: 40
            +11
            Drone videos do not confirm much destruction in
            Artemovsk.
            Fights are going on the outskirts, in a one-story private sector.
            1. ALMO
              ALMO 21 December 2022 00: 04
              +2
              And the video from the city itself does not confirm. The center is completely intact, civilians walk around, only freshly dug trenches remind of the battles.
    2. GRIGORIY76
      GRIGORIY76 19 December 2022 09: 54
      0
      why do bridges across the Dnieper still exist
      ?

      They have nothing to endure, there is no such weapon at the disposal of Surovikin.
      1. saigon
        saigon 19 December 2022 12: 44
        +12
        Come on, you have nothing to endure, the railway bridge is extremely vulnerable.
        Approximately 200 mm shaft is there and it is not designed for explosive loads.
        But there is no order, but an option, but why not, the question is big.
      2. Pantsuy
        Pantsuy 19 December 2022 15: 34
        -8
        Quote: GRIGORIY76
        They have nothing to endure, there is no such weapon at the disposal of Surovikin.

        There are weapons. There are no means of delivery. Rather, there is no means of delivery, but they will not be able to deliver. Or, to be more precise, they can deliver. But not all. And, without returning back. In the end, anyway, the conclusion is - THERE IS NO WEAPON.
        1. Zoer
          Zoer 19 December 2022 16: 23
          +6
          Quote: Pantsuy
          There are weapons. There are no means of delivery.

          And what, did the missiles run out for the Iskanders? Can't they cope with half a ton in concrete-piercing equipment, along the bridge supports, at a speed of Mach 3-5?
          About 20 bridges in total connect the two banks of Ukraine. Even 3 missiles per bridge is only 60 missiles. Don't we have this? And if not, why not? What about 70% of the re-equipped army?
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 19 December 2022 19: 14
            +3
            Quote: Zoer
            Can't they cope with half a ton in concrete-piercing equipment, along the bridge supports, at a speed of Mach 3-5?

            Rockets hit the bridge deck from above. To destroy the supports, you need to mine them manually.
            1. Zoer
              Zoer 19 December 2022 20: 43
              +5
              Quote: Dart2027
              Rockets hit the bridge deck from above. To destroy the supports you need to mine them manually

              Did you pass by about concrete-piercing equipment?
              These missiles destroy buried bunkers, and you write about bridge supports. laughing So even chimars completely pierce the canvas. Iskander, even through the canvas, will smash the support to the very bottom.
              But you continue to make up lies.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 19 December 2022 21: 01
                0
                Quote: Zoer
                Did you pass by about concrete-piercing equipment?
                These missiles destroy buried bunkers, and you write about bridge supports.

                Bunkers are destroyed by bombs, not rockets.
                Quote: Zoer
                So even chimars completely pierce the canvas.

                They break through. And then our sappers have to blow it up properly.
                Quote: Zoer
                Iskander, even through the canvas, will smash the support to the very bottom.

                Bandera rushed a car with explosives on the bridge, so what? the canvas is damaged, but there is no support.
                1. Zoer
                  Zoer 19 December 2022 21: 18
                  +7
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Bunkers are destroyed by bombs, not rockets.

                  laughing
                  And why then the concrete-piercing warhead of Iskander missiles?
                  The bomb falls at a relatively low speed, the Iskander rocket hits the target at a speed of several kilometers per second. Well, at least a little something you can think about?
                  In the end, these OTRKs were specially created to destroy bridges and bunkers, incl.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 19 December 2022 21: 47
                    +2
                    Quote: Zoer
                    The bomb falls at a relatively low speed, the Iskander rocket hits the target at a speed of several kilometers per second.

                    From fragmentation or armor-piercing shells, concrete-piercing shells differ primarily in thick reinforced walls and the special strength of the hull.
                    ...
                    As for aviation, the Russian Aerospace Forces has at its disposal several types of concrete-piercing bombs - free-falling and equipped with jet boosters. A simple BetAB-500 can be carried by almost any modern strike aircraft. It is dropped from a height of several thousand meters so that the ammunition has time to develop tremendous speed and obtain a supply of kinetic energy sufficient to completely break through the barrier. A five-hundred-kilogram bomb freely passes through a ceiling of pure concrete up to a meter thick or pierces up to three meters of soil.
                    https://ria.ru/20180709/1524090009.html

                    Not so simple.
                    Quote: Zoer
                    In the end, these OTRKs were specially created to destroy bridges and bunkers, including

                    Bunker bunker strife, and bridge supports are solid concrete.
                    1. Zoer
                      Zoer 19 December 2022 22: 28
                      +2
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Not so simple.

                      Still easier. There is only kinetic energy from that speed, the car is whole, and also an explosion buried in concrete.
                      Read the performance characteristics and the purpose of the complex, after all.
                    2. Zoer
                      Zoer 19 December 2022 23: 32
                      0
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      equipped with jet boosters. A simple BetAB-500 can be carried by almost any modern strike aircraft. It is dropped from a height of several thousand meters so that the ammunition has time to develop tremendous speed and obtain a supply of kinetic energy sufficient to completely break through the barrier. A five-hundred-kilogram bomb freely passes through a ceiling of pure concrete up to a meter thick or pierces up to three meters of soil.

                      Betab 500 weighs a little more than 500 kg, well, let's say 600 with accelerators. The 9M723 missile has only a 500 kg warhead, and everything else. Much more than 600 kg flies to the target, and it dives from a height of 50 km, against 10 km for the Betab 500. Even with boosters, the aerial bomb falls short of the destructiveness of 9M723.
                      1. View from the outside
                        View from the outside 20 December 2022 11: 15
                        +2
                        And could you tell a non-military person whether the "Dagger" pierced somewhere in the mountains near Lvov in the spring, an ammunition depot, with a thickness of the "ceiling", as they wrote, about 60 meters? They also wrote that it was built by the Union and with the expectation to withstand the impact of an atomic bomb. Ours wrote and gave a video that the "Dagger" pierced it and caused a detonation. It seems to me that this is a lie, because. neither 60 nor 20 meters and the meteorite does not penetrate, although without explosives, but with the 1st cosmic speed. and yet, I did NOT see a secondary explosion, i.e. detonation in the storage. Thank you in advance!
                      2. Zoer
                        Zoer 20 December 2022 22: 51
                        +3
                        Quote: Side view
                        And could you tell a non-military person whether the "Dagger" pierced somewhere in the mountains near Lvov in the spring, an ammunition depot, with a thickness of the "ceiling", as they wrote, about 60 meters? They also wrote that it was built by the Union and with the expectation to withstand the impact of an atomic bomb. Ours wrote and gave a video that the "Dagger" pierced it and caused a detonation.

                        Well, even Bidon commented there. An ordinary rocket, but there is no protection against it))). What do you think, did it pass or not?
                        Quote: Side view
                        It seems to me that this is a lie, because. neither 60 nor 20 meters and the meteorite does not penetrate, although without explosives, but with the 1st cosmic speed. and yet, I did NOT see a secondary explosion, i.e. detonation in the storage.

                        It doesn’t seem right to you))) Metiorites and other asteroids fly at a higher speed than the 1st space one. But this does not mean anything, because. comparable to a rocket or warhead in mass simply burn up in the atmosphere upon entering it. Warheads, especially penetrating ones, are made of special, extremely durable materials, and with an optimal shape, unlike a block. Such warheads are capable of plunging 10 meters deep into ordinary soil, and being blown up there.
                      3. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 20 December 2022 19: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Zoer
                        Betab 500 weighs a little over 500 kg, well

                        Quote: Dart2027
                        From fragmentation or armor-piercing shells, concrete-piercing shells differ primarily in thick reinforced walls and the special strength of the hull.
                        That is, the weight can be more, but for splitting concrete, you also need a strong body. Roughly speaking, concrete-piercing charges with equal weight carry less explosives, but more metal. Well, since the dimensions of the rocket are standard, then if you make a full-fledged concrete breaker, then it will weigh much more.
                    3. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 21 December 2022 13: 53
                      +3
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Bunker bunker strife, and bridge supports are solid concrete.

                      Well, you rested against these supports. It is enough to destroy one span and the bridge does not work. Restoring even one span under these conditions is another task for the Outskirts.
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 21 December 2022 19: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Restoring even one span under these conditions is another task for the Outskirts.

                        Why would? Everything they need will be given.
                  2. UAZ 452
                    UAZ 452 19 December 2022 22: 05
                    +2
                    How many of our missiles hit the bridge across the Dniester Estuary? More than one for sure. So what? Traffic on the bridge was restored as soon as possible, after the repair of the canvas itself.
                    1. Zoer
                      Zoer 19 December 2022 22: 32
                      -4
                      Quote: UAZ 452
                      How many of our missiles hit the bridge across the Dniester Estuary? More than one for sure. So what? Traffic on the bridge was restored as soon as possible, after the repair of the canvas itself.

                      It is important not only how much, but also what. Has at least one 9M723 arrived? Or 3M-14?
                  3. Duncan
                    Duncan 19 December 2022 23: 17
                    +4
                    As far as I understand, they lack precision. Even the Hymers did not break the supports due to a deviation of several meters, although their GPS is more accurate and there is an optical gyroscope in the head.
                    1. Dart2027
                      Dart2027 20 December 2022 19: 24
                      0
                      Quote from dunkan
                      As far as I understand, they lack precision.

                      And this is possible, although it was said about Iskander that he almost falls into the window.
                  4. voyaka uh
                    voyaka uh 19 December 2022 23: 48
                    +2
                    "In the end, these OTRKs were specially created to destroy bridges and bunkers" ///
                    ---
                    Everything was based on warheads with tactical nuclear weapons.
                    With a conventional warhead of 400-500 kg and with a real KVO of 10 m, at least 2 Iskanders are needed to destroy one bridge. And even more.
                    Expensive.
                    Americans have converted all bombs into JDAM
                    according to military GPS, giving KVO about 5 m. Cheap and cheerful.
                    They pierce bridges.
                    1. Zoer
                      Zoer 20 December 2022 09: 06
                      -1
                      Quote: voyaka uh
                      KVO 10 m to destroy one bridge, you need at least 2 Iskanders. And even more.
                      Expensive.

                      Bridge support 20x2 m. Well, yes, the first rocket may not hit you. But 4 missiles for such an object are not very expensive, given the problems that the Armed Forces of Ukraine will have from the destruction of transport arteries. If you still catch a moment with a military echelon on the bridge, then there’s nothing to talk about at all.
                  5. Nastia makarova
                    Nastia makarova 20 December 2022 12: 15
                    +1
                    tired of their stupidity about missiles destroying bridges
                  6. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 21 December 2022 12: 35
                    0
                    Iskander's missile hits the target at a speed of several km / s

                    No, only 700-800 m/s
                    1. Zoer
                      Zoer 23 December 2022 13: 20
                      +1
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      No, only 700-800 m/s

                      Yes

                      The speed of the rocket after the initial portion of the trajectory, m / s - 2100

                      https://vpk.name/library/f/9m723.html
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 23 December 2022 13: 30
                        0
                        Yes

                        Imagine no.
                        Do you even understand what number you gave?
                        This is the speed at the end of the accelerating section of the trajectory (after fuel burnout), and not the speed at the final section.
                        I'll tell you more - the rocket is forcibly slowed down to ensure the operation of the seeker's optics.
                      2. Zoer
                        Zoer 23 December 2022 14: 44
                        +1
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        I'll tell you more - the rocket is forcibly slowed down to ensure the operation of the seeker's optics.

                        Ok, let's say 800 m/s. It's like the speed of an AK bullet, only the mass is more than a ton. And also VV.
                2. sleeve
                  sleeve 20 December 2022 08: 38
                  -1
                  The accuracy of Iskander allows you to work on the bunker.
                3. gsev
                  gsev 21 December 2022 19: 40
                  -1
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Bandera rushed a car with explosives on the bridge, so what? the canvas is damaged, but there is no support.

                  The truck was probably more than one ton of TNT. The explosion occurred a meter above the bridge. The fabric just sagged. The bridge was restored within a week. We need to destroy about 100 bridges. If the Ukrainians are also capable of restoring them in 10 days, then they will have to exchange 200 bombers every week in order to hinder cargo transportation for a week. The Ukrainians will simply unload at the bridge and transport the cargo by barges in tows to the other side of the river. And so 70 missiles and a hundred kamikaze drones a week and half of Ukraine's industry got up for a week. In addition, such a strike would require the Ukrainians to launch about 500 anti-aircraft missiles. Surely 20% of them will be redirected to metal roofs or sources of thermal radiation on the ground, doubling the destruction. The United States after the last strike is forced to supply air defense systems to Ukraine for 45 billion dollars. At this rate, Nabiullina's gift will run out by summer.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 21 December 2022 21: 29
                    -2
                    Quote: gsev
                    The truck was probably more than one ton of TNT. The explosion occurred a meter above the bridge. The fabric just sagged. The bridge was restored within a week.

                    And some don't understand it.
                  2. Zoer
                    Zoer 23 December 2022 13: 23
                    +2
                    Quote: gsev
                    The truck was probably more than one ton of TNT. The explosion occurred a meter above the bridge. The fabric just sagged. The bridge was restored within a week. We need to destroy about 100 bridges. If their Ukrainians are also able to restore in 10 days

                    How cleverly you throw numbers ...
                    A week later, traffic was only opened on the undamaged part of the bridge. And they restored the destroyed more than 2 months.
                    There are only about 20 bridges across the Dnieper, not a hundred.
              2. Valnik
                Valnik 20 December 2022 18: 50
                +3
                The bridge in Kherson was beaten with hymers for a long time and there were dozens of hits. That's why they destroyed it. Dozens of Iskanders on one bridge is a luxury. And yes, you need to hit the ground. The railway bridge in Odessa showed that several hits were needed. And there is also a feeling that there is a restriction on strikes on bridges.
              3. Tram
                Tram 23 December 2022 12: 34
                +2
                You need to bomb with heavy guided or adjustable bombs, bomb everywhere, the rear, the front line, but unfortunately there is no aviation.
          2. STORM 12
            STORM 12 20 December 2022 01: 14
            -4
            Why blow up bridges?
            ..........
            1. Zoer
              Zoer 20 December 2022 09: 10
              +5
              Then, in order to deprive logistics of a small army of the enemy.
          3. Mikhail Ya2
            Mikhail Ya2 20 December 2022 13: 26
            +3
            It is difficult to get to the desired point of the bridge with an Iskander, even into the bridge itself. Circular error probable: 30-70 m without a homing system and 5-7 m with a homing system
          4. Pantsuy
            Pantsuy 20 December 2022 14: 29
            +2
            Quote: Zoer
            And what, did the missiles run out for the Iskanders?

            Iskanders on bridges - too wasteful and ineffective - too many of them will be needed. I meant the simplest bombs. But it is very problematic to deliver them to the reset point.
        2. Akuzenka
          Akuzenka 20 December 2022 10: 04
          +7
          There are weapons. There are no means of delivery. Rather, there is no means of delivery, but they will not be able to deliver. Or, to be more precise, they can deliver. But not all. And, without returning back. In the end, anyway, the conclusion is - THERE IS NO WEAPON.
          After this, if you want or don’t want to, you will understand what feats the ancestors performed by blowing up heavily guarded bridges behind enemy lines! Combining with well-constructed and coordinated plans, they thwarted Nazi plans to defeat the Red Army.
        3. Dmitry Chelyabinsk
          Dmitry Chelyabinsk 20 December 2022 18: 14
          +2
          Bridges across the Dnieper are a radio-contrast target ranging in length from several hundred meters to 2-3 km, and a width of tens of meters (larger than an aircraft carrier). X-22s would be suitable, speeds up to Mach 4, there is a tactic of massive use with the Tu-22M, but apparently there are not enough of these missiles in storage (and there are not many Tu-22Ms themselves). Although it seems that the use of a subsequent type in Ukraine, the X-32, was announced.
      3. MeVED
        MeVED 20 December 2022 21: 40
        0
        A couple of dozen planning bombs would be found, not considered a top priority, obviously. In addition, the destruction of infrastructure means the recognition of the impossibility of a quick victory, which no one wants to admit, because they will immediately fall out of favor
    3. filibuster
      filibuster 19 December 2022 10: 55
      +12
      and if we take into account the superiority in artillery in the Artemovsk region, then it is possible that the Armed Forces of Ukraine are successfully carried out there.


      Does he have superiority in artillery? No, of course, in terms of the number of barrels and the consumption of shells, I think we have an advantage over the Armed Forces of Ukraine, but intelligence, target designation, accuracy and speed of reaction are clearly on their side.
      1. Valnik
        Valnik 20 December 2022 18: 57
        +6
        Judging by the lunar surfaces after the shelling, the resource of the barrels is rapidly decreasing. Sometimes fields without visible fortifications and traces of equipment are covered with funnels. The future belongs to corrected and ammunition, reconnaissance and target designation. And all this should combine communication and the ability to make a decision to hit the target without wasting time.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. Fluk54
      Fluk54 24 December 2022 00: 36
      -1
      Today I watched the Montyan stream with the participation of Grubnik and Murza. If at least half of what they say is true, then there is no question why this is so. The impression is the hardest.
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 19 December 2022 06: 43
    +3
    An interesting option would be if both sides move away from Artyomovsk .. At the same time .. Fiction, kanesh ..
    1. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 19 December 2022 08: 00
      +4
      Quote: parusnik
      An interesting option would be if both sides move away from Artyomovsk .. At the same time .. Fiction, kanesh ..

      like in the movie "The Good, the Bad, the Ugly" (1966), where the heroes blew up the bridge, for which the Yankees and Dixies fought so frenziedly ... like, now let them kill each other in another place
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 19 December 2022 08: 15
        +2
        as in The Good, the Bad, the Ugly (1966)
        Yes, I remembered this when I wrote the comment .. In this film, the parties also grind each other ..
  3. Nikolay Malyugin
    Nikolay Malyugin 19 December 2022 08: 00
    +1
    All this is generated by world liberalism. And if someone thinks that liberalism cannot be cruel, he is deeply mistaken. First, crying over the tears of one child, and then you can strike a preemptive blow. Personal ambitions and nothing more.
    1. runway-1
      runway-1 19 December 2022 12: 24
      +4
      Dear Nikolai!
      Do not confuse classical/theoretical liberalism of the XNUMXth century with the self-designation of liberalism at the turn of the XNUMXth-XNUMXst centuries, often called neoliberalism...
    2. UAZ 452
      UAZ 452 19 December 2022 22: 08
      0
      First, crying over the tears of one child, and then you can strike a preemptive blow.

      Well, perhaps from the point of view of the person giving the order for a preemptive strike, dead children do not cry, which means that the issue of tears is automatically removed.
  4. solar
    solar 19 December 2022 09: 20
    +5
    It's time to stop this leapfrog Bakhmut - Artemovsk.
    Bakhmut is an old Russian name from the time of Ivan the Terrible and the Bakhmut guard-fortress on the site of the future city. Actually, the name Bakhmut was given by Peter 1. I don’t understand the reasons for confusing the reader and holding on to the Soviet name.
    As for the state of affairs in Bakhmut, the name "Bakhmut meat grinder" accurately reflects them on both sides.
    The front line has been crawling back and forth for a long time. Back in October, the Wagnerites captured the asphalt plant and the outskirts of Bakhmut.
    But then the Armed Forces of Ukraine forced them out of there. The other day, the Wagnerites again found themselves on the outskirts. But there have already been reports that they were again forced out of two blocks. Nothing seems to be left of the city, just like of Popasna. Somehow the future of the republics was not seen a year ago: ((
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 19 December 2022 12: 05
      -1
      Stalingrad, too, was not originally called that .. And - what? Shall we spit on everything and call him exclusively Tsaritsyn?
      1. solar
        solar 19 December 2022 12: 57
        0
        You do not know that now the city is not called Stalingrad, but Volgograd? Why does the name Bakhmut not suit you?
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 19 December 2022 13: 01
          +1
          Yeah .. Tell someone in the world around Volgograd - do many people know about it? That's the same..

          As for Bakhmut, it was not us who renamed him that way. That's when, by order of the President of the Russian Federation, Artemovsk becomes Bakhmut - no questions asked. In the meantime, for us it is Artyomovsk.
          1. solar
            solar 19 December 2022 13: 36
            0
            Renamed him Peter 1. Actually, he called him Bakhmut.
            Yeah .. Tell someone in the world around Volgograd - do many people know about it? That's the same..

            Okay in the world, but you should at least kind of know what the city is called?
            1. UAZ 452
              UAZ 452 19 December 2022 22: 12
              +10
              I think that those who founded and built it have the right to give the name to the city. Otherwise, everything ends with the renaming of cities with centuries of history in honor of the next deceased (or even not yet deceased) member of the Politburo. And for several generations of members, you can’t get enough of any cities, even in Russia.
              1. Belisarius
                Belisarius 20 December 2022 00: 59
                0
                Quote: UAZ 452
                I believe that those who founded and built it have the right to give the name to the city. Otherwise, everything ends with the renaming of cities with centuries of history in honor of the next deceased (or even not yet deceased) member of the Politburo

                A plausible point of view, a kind of "naive realism", but not true.
                The bottom line is that the name, like everything in this life, change historically, it was and will be so. The same Petersburg was not renamed by the Bolsheviks at all, but by the tsar-father, so the concept of returning the historical name in relation to it is ridiculous, especially since the Swedes would then say, and this name is unhistorical. It is only important not to allow forces radically hostile to Russia (any form of Russia), just like the Maidanites, into your symbolic field of decisions.
                Well, your logic can be accepted, but then, according to it, thousands of names will immediately have to be changed to Soviet ones. By 99, 1991% of all residential and industrial capacities were created by the Soviet government, not to mention the names that even formally cannot be attracted to Tsarist Russia. For example, on what basis did the capitalist regime rename metro stations? Bring everything back.
                Specifically, here the question is simple-solar just wants to push through the decisions of the Maidan authorities as legal. He cannot do this using the example of renaming, say, Pobeda Prospekt to Shukhevych Prospekt, so he has to imitate "historical justice" using the example of Bakhmut. the old name of the town.
                First, we must eliminate the Maidan power, and only then, according to the will of the inhabitants and the decision of the legitimate authorities, can we rename Artemovsk even to Bakhmut, even to Putingrad, even to Stalino.
                1. Ivan 1980
                  Ivan 1980 20 December 2022 09: 35
                  +2
                  Under the tsar, there was Petrograd and not Petersburg, the city is the Russian name burg German
                  1. View from the outside
                    View from the outside 20 December 2022 11: 53
                    0
                    Yes, they changed immediately with the beginning of the 1st World War. And the Finns, by the way, not wanting to break their language with the gems ugly name (it's not us, who honor everything Western), they call Petersburg the word "Pietari" (Pietari), which is convenient for pronunciation. Even officially on road signs
    2. Belisarius
      Belisarius 19 December 2022 16: 42
      -2
      Quote from solar
      It's time to stop this leapfrog Bakhmut - Artemovsk.

      What a disgusting bastard....
      The Maidan rebels - bandits and American serfs, within the framework of the law on "decommunization", renamed Artemovsk into "Bakhmut", passing this decision through local authorities, of course, after the liberation, Artemovsk will return its name, since the decisions of the Maidan rebels are illegal in form and disgusting in content.
      Exactly the same as all the names of streets, settlements, etc. will be returned. There will be no avenues of Stepan Bandera instead of Lenin streets.
      So the only thing that should be stopped is an attempt under the guise of "returning historical names" to carry out Bandera propaganda here.
      However, it is well known that Vlasov and Bandera are brothers forever .....
      1. solar
        solar 19 December 2022 17: 28
        +4
        they didn’t rename, but returned the old Russian name, which was given to the city by its founder, Peter 1. And it’s hard to understand why some are so sausage because of this.
    3. Chronos
      Chronos 19 December 2022 22: 32
      +1
      No one kicked out the Wagnerites from the asphalt plant. They made a video at another plant still controlled by the Armed Forces of Ukraine and dispersed it over the network. The key to Bakhmut is Experienced. If you take it, only then will the assault on the city begin. From several sides.
    4. Valnik
      Valnik 20 December 2022 19: 03
      0
      Yes, we are involved in street fighting. Where are the dashing attacks with tank avalanches across the fields and detours of motorized infantry with the landing of tactical assault forces? Again, they were preparing for the wrong war. It's time to create special equipment for the capture of fortress cities. There is something for engineers to think about. In the Middle Ages, siege towers were used for this and trenches were led directly to the walls of fortresses. Why don't they do it now? With current technology.
      1. aglet
        aglet 20 December 2022 22: 01
        +3
        "It's time to create a special technique for the capture of cities of fortresses"
        Are there many fortress walls in Artyomovsk? ordinary building. it is necessary to create a new tactic for taking cities without aviation, with clumsy artillery and not a damn thing infantry. this is urgently needed
  5. Maks1995
    Maks1995 19 December 2022 09: 20
    -1
    Here.
    Now the landscape in the photo looks like a landscape from Grozny in the 2000s, when Russia crushed the Chechen separatists. True, the glass is still intact ...
    You understand, if you wanted to separate from Russia for free, Zhirik went to them for money - they didn’t let him ...
    And no one recognized them, except for 2 of the same informals ...

    direct resemblance to today...
  6. GRIGORIY76
    GRIGORIY76 19 December 2022 09: 58
    +25
    “Why the hell do we need such a release?” - thinks the loyal or neutral population of Ukraine, looking at the photo of the liberated Bakhmut.
    1. Prokop_Pork
      Prokop_Pork 19 December 2022 10: 20
      +1
      A Russian person has such a weakness - a guide to other people's thoughts.
  7. Negro
    Negro 19 December 2022 10: 15
    +19
    Some kind of strange formulation of the question.
    For the Ukrainian side, there are two dimensions, military and political.
    1. In Bakhmut, the Armed Forces of Ukraine conduct defensive battles in buildings. This is an advantageous position for them and there is no point in exchanging it for something else, handing over Bakhmut.
    2. Having surrendered Bakhmut, the Armed Forces of Ukraine will let the enemy pass to Kramatorsk and will be forced to fight there already. With the need to evacuate the remnants of the inhabitants, the destruction of another city, etc.
    3. After Kharkiv and Kherson, the Armed Forces of Ukraine and Ukrainian politics in general have developed an overly exaggerated self-image. Onward to victory, home by Christmas, all these stories. Therefore, the surrender of the ruins of Bakhmut looks more expensive than it actually is.

    Understanding the Russian side, as always, is much more difficult. Perhaps the military idea is that the defense of Bakhmut of the Russian Federation fetters the initiative and reserves of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, does not allow advancing in more dangerous directions - Melitopol or Starobelsk. As far as it is reasonable - God knows.

    Bakhmut has nothing to do with the problems of Donetsk. There, the Armed Forces of Ukraine are literally in the suburbs of Donetsk from the west, and Bakhmut is in the north and not far away - there will be no artillery, even Caesar.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Negro
        Negro 19 December 2022 17: 46
        -4
        Quote: Wildcat
        And they will kill me, and I, bl///, will not see all the further shame, in connection with which we can say that I will be fine. Almost oh////but

        Murzik is beautiful as always. When we finally lose him, it will even be a pity for two minutes.

        But I am opposed to hatred. The Armed Forces of Ukraine, to put it bluntly, fell in love with both potential boilers, both Izyumsky and, which is quite a shame, Kherson. Therefore, we will discuss their successes in the winter when they are. Until I see.

        And on the situation in Bakhmut, you can read recent posts by Atomic Cherry in the cart, for example. They do not please the fans of the Armed Forces of Ukraine so much, but in general they are quite neutral.
        1. Wildcat
          Wildcat 19 December 2022 18: 40
          +4
          By the way, Strelkov I.I. generally shares the opinion of Murza:
          " Let everyone decide for himself whether "Murza should be shot" (as suggested by "lickers without flattery" in the comments) or, conversely, reward for this text ... Personally, I try to avoid such detailed discussions on specific issues (firstly, because that "I didn’t see it myself - so I don’t write", and secondly (even if I personally saw it) - so as not to please everyone), but - from the point of view of a state security officer - there is no mention of any "disclosure of military secrets" in the text, as well as information constituting a state secret. The enemy is well aware of everything that Murz writes. And this information is "secret" only for the population of Russia, who is not a member of the RF Ministry of Defense and lives far from the theater of operations.
          And to read this text to anyone who is at least a little versed in military affairs and is trying to find the answer to the question: "what is happening at the front?" - is simply necessary.
          Beware - a lot of profanity.
          "
        2. Wildcat
          Wildcat 20 December 2022 00: 01
          +7
          Murzik is beautiful as always. When we finally lose him, it will even be a pity for two minutes.
          - rude.
          People like Moores end up "creating nations," though, hmm, the outcome isn't always what the attendees are counting on at the start of a "Boston Tea Party."
          IMHO, such a specialist will be "taken to the convoy in time" and he will continue to make memories and walkie-talkies - it is only interesting where and for whom, the path of such a character is very tortuous.

          But I am opposed to hatred. The Armed Forces of Ukraine, to put it bluntly, fell in love with both potential boilers, both Izyumsky and, which is quite a shame, Kherson.
          IMHO, for "pitting" you need at least 2 corresponding mobile BT groups, which the Armed Forces of Ukraine do not have (Scholz / Biden "did not bring up", we read the series on VO "untimely help"), and is not yet visible.
          And you can leave the groups "2-3 infantry fighting vehicles / analogues and bandermobiles".
          Yes, and the RF Armed Forces (we don’t discuss the composition of the group of troops, this is generally incomprehensible to me) copes with command and control of troops, not allowing boilers.
          Yes, and the Armed Forces of Ukraine are not "kissed on the top of the head" - as far as I remember, you were unspeakably amused by the story "The Armed Forces of Ukraine are going to Kherson, but doubts - who is there? - are taking them with you."

          Therefore, we will discuss their successes in the winter when they are. Until I see.
          And on the situation in Bakhmut, you can read recent posts by Atomic Cherry in the cart, for example. They do not please the fans of the Armed Forces of Ukraine so much, but in general they are quite neutral.
          no successes/defeats of the Armed Forces of Ukraine will solve anything for Ukraine in the foreseeable future in terms of "the NMD was, is and will be until it reaches its goals" for the reasons that we have already discussed, IMHO. The names of those politicians who "can decide" are known, IMHO.
          In addition to Bakhmut / Artemovsk, it will be possible to read about different places in / in Ukraine for a long time in "News on VO".
          Well, as long as Mr. Zelensky, for his part, rather dull (but bravely) cosplays Churchill (even speeches about "without you" and "we will fight" are very similar in rhetorical devices), nothing unusual will happen. As a Ukrainian (he managed to "not pull" on the "pan-Slavic", although how could he do it? Talent ....) politician, he "slightly" "does not reach" not only to the level of Kuchma, but even to Poroshenko " not enough, IMHO.

          PS. The discussion with Andrey from Chelyabinsk is somehow sad.
          The reasons, "Wishlist" and other interesting things that affect the composition of the aircraft carrier's wings (F18 - F35) are "not disclosed", as they say on the Internet.
          Somehow it quickly became personal.

          P.P.S. By the way, the quotes from Murza did not "hang" for long. Removed. IMHO - that's fine. Almost no one is interested in this topic.
          1. Jager
            Jager 20 December 2022 01: 17
            +1
            As a Ukrainian politician, he "slightly" "does not reach" not only the level of Kuchma, but even "does not reach" Poroshenko,

            Sorry, but unlike even Poroshenko, an experienced oligarch and relatively successful politician, Zelensky, apart from his acting, is practically nothing of himself. This is just a media figure who has appeared “at the right time in the right place”, which has no political or financial weight, except for the face, and therefore is as manageable as possible.
            Put instead of Zelensky Klitschko "Not only everything" - it would not change anything.
            1. Wildcat
              Wildcat 20 December 2022 12: 39
              +1
              This is just a media figure who has appeared “at the right time in the right place”, which has no political or financial weight, except for the face, and therefore is as manageable as possible.
              Well, the figure is not just "appeared", but based on the results of a completely unusual in duration pre-election video "Servant of the People". And due to the lack of "weight" - trying to acquire this "weight" through unusual assumptions, for example: "I will solve the problems of Donbass and Crimea in a year", refusal to sign agreed documents with Putin at a meeting, well, and the ridiculous positioning "elves are fighting against orcs ".

              Put instead of Zelensky Klitschko "Not only everything" - it would not change anything.
              Not really, IMHO. Zelensky (from my point of view), in addition to staying in Kyiv in February and not going on the run (which he was offered), in all the years of his presidency, he made the worst possible decisions regarding the Russian Federation/Donbass.
              So IMHO, Klitschko or Zaluzhny could be more dangerous for the Russian Federation (or better for Ukraine) as President.
              1. the Urals
                the Urals 20 December 2022 19: 31
                0
                That's right, that's why Zelya is still alive. If we remove him, then at least not a drug addict will come to his place, and this is worse for us, although of course the President of Ukraine is a figure purely controlled by the West, but nevertheless
          2. Negro
            Negro 20 December 2022 07: 02
            -3
            Quote: Wildcat
            By the way, the quotes from Murza did not "hang" for long. Removed

            It's on the case. Read the site's rules about swearing. Your /// is not enough, it's strange that my replay hasn't been deleted.
            Quote: Wildcat
            The discussion with Andrey from Chelyabinsk is somehow sad.

            I'm tired of arguing with inappropriate people. The last discussion ended with the question of how many square kilometers of a zone of severe destruction of urban development are capable of providing the strategic nuclear forces of the Russian Federation in the event of an optimal development of events for them. I can hardly be called a Russian patriot, but this level of indifference to Russia and Russians is beyond my reach.
            Quote: Wildcat
            no successes/defeats of the Armed Forces of Ukraine will decide anything for Ukraine in the foreseeable future

            In the absence of political options, a purely military logic remains. At least she's understandable. The military task of the NMD for Ukraine is the transfer of the NMD from its territory to the territory of any other state. Of course, at the beginning of October, Mr. Putin tried to do just that for Ukraine, but I mean another option.
            Quote: Wildcat
            he is a politician "a little" "does not hold out"

            Yes, no luck here. On the other hand, the citizens of Russia, when talking about unsuccessful presidents, would be a little flustered.
            Quote: Wildcat
            Yes, and the APU is not "kissed on the top"

            Yes. Therefore, despite the whining of Murzik / Strelkov, the very fact that the first is still alive proves that not everything is so simple.
            Quote: Wildcat
            - rude

            They will be rude to him when Lugansk is taken. Or where is he.
            Quote: Wildcat
            IMHO, such a specialist will be "taken to the convoy in time"

            With a Russian glove compartment, this is possible. But if Murzik is not lucky with the mess, he and people like him will not be allowed into Russia. In figs, these buzzers are needed, one Strelkov is enough.
            1. Wildcat
              Wildcat 20 December 2022 12: 54
              0
              hi
              tired of arguing with inappropriate people
              well, no matter how he writes about the Mig35 regiments and glorious aircraft carriers / helicopter carriers ... the situation is changing very quickly ...

              In the absence of political options, a purely military logic remains. At least she's understandable. The military task of the NMD for Ukraine is the transfer of the NMD from its territory to the territory of any other state.
              Hmm, even Zaluzhny does not think beyond the boundaries of "2014", declaring "1991 as a goal." The transfer to the "territory of another state" is not even declared.
              1. Negro
                Negro 20 December 2022 13: 57
                -2
                As we have already found out, purely internal Russian reasons are enough for the NWO to continue. So the APU cannot stop the NWO, no matter what they do.
              2. Negro
                Negro 20 December 2022 14: 49
                -2
                Quote: Negro
                By the way, the quotes from Murza did not "hang" for long. Removed

                It's funny that she did not hang in his LiveJournal for a long time. It has already happened. Moreover, according to the direct link, it is written that Roskomnadzor demolished the record.
                1. Wildcat
                  Wildcat 20 December 2022 15: 54
                  +2
                  No.
                  Not surprising. There is nothing to scare people ahead of time.

                  feel
                  But Girkin / Strelkov will help the story, everything in the TG has survived.
                  By the way, unlike Murza, Monsieur Strelkov decided not to pick up a machine gun as a last resort, but simply .... "I plan to use all available modest forces to promote the formation of that very "third force", about the need for which Taldych has been talking for the ninth year.
                  Now it, most likely, should look like something like "angry patriots club
                  "".
                  So to say, I decided to go to the head clubs.
          3. d4rkmesa
            d4rkmesa 20 December 2022 18: 43
            0
            It's funny that LiveJournal does not delete pro-Ukrainian posts, bots and comments (when you send a complaint, some kind of mocking message pops up, you see, they do not accept less than a statement to the prosecutor's office, which is not for me), but Murza's article (in the morning - I saw just froze) almost instantly covered.
      2. solar
        solar 19 December 2022 17: 49
        -2
        I think that the Ukrainian command, too, later, already in captivity, will give these people the appropriate orders. "Gold and very dark amber" (c) Because on the eve of the winter offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, it is almost impossible to provide the Armed Forces of Ukraine with some more significant service than killing the remnants of our infantry and the remnants of our tanks.

        https://kenigtiger.livejournal.com/2200542.html
        1. d4rkmesa
          d4rkmesa 20 December 2022 18: 44
          0
          I still don't understand who is responsible for this. A general assigned to the corps or all sorts of Khodakovskys?
  8. steelmaker
    steelmaker 19 December 2022 10: 16
    +13
    This whole fight is because we don't have air superiority. Our "generals", even in such a significant area, cannot provide superiority in this component. Hence the meat grinder for half a year. And the shelling of Donetsk. No air superiority, no results. And this means that there is no such goal to complete the CBO.
    1. paul3390
      paul3390 19 December 2022 12: 03
      +14
      There is superiority .. But - two extremely unpleasant moments have emerged .. Firstly, it is extremely difficult to completely suppress modern focal air defense, there is always a risk that at least something will remain. Secondly, modern advanced aviation is so expensive that even the possibility of losing a couple of them is assessed as unacceptable. This is for me the Second World War, when the exchange of a squadron of bombers for a bridge was considered normal .. And now, aviation is more and more reminiscent of battleships in WWI, which they took care of so much that they practically did not participate in the war.
      1. saigon
        saigon 19 December 2022 12: 47
        0
        Well, if you take into account not taking into account Jutland, then yes, they took care of the Black Sea Fleet, battleships and battleships did act,
        1. paul3390
          paul3390 19 December 2022 13: 04
          +4
          The Chernomorians acted for this reason - they had no real threat. Goeben alone was not their rival. But if, say, four such ships were based in Istanbul, and everyone would be sitting at the bases on the Black Sea .. And we and they .. For the risk of losing a combat unit of similar significance and cost would outweigh any military needs for it ..
      2. Eroma
        Eroma 19 December 2022 16: 30
        +13
        Modern aircraft with Super duper aiming systems are designed to hit targets with modern weapons, without entering the air defense coverage area! The weaker the air defense, the easier it is to use weapons.
        The problem of the Aerospace Forces, apparently, is in the lack of a sufficient number of modern means of destruction and in the range of smart weapons that is miserable by modern standards! feel
        Su34 and Su30 should not throw FAB500, but launch bombs that plan to launch 70 km and weigh 1,5 tons each, or that missiles with TV guidance, but with a firing range of 150 km, then air supremacy will be felt with the enemy’s live focal air defense bully
    2. PROXOR
      PROXOR 19 December 2022 12: 06
      +1
      How they put it in a penny. The turntables would quickly put an end to the resistance. But they cannot approach the gray line.
    3. aglet
      aglet 20 December 2022 22: 13
      0
      "There is no air superiority, there are no results. And this means that there is no such goal to finish the NWO."
      here, and I wrote about it. Putin's goal is not to end his victory, but to stretch it out as long as possible, and then declare what has been achieved a victory
  9. runway-1
    runway-1 19 December 2022 12: 20
    +2
    We allow ourselves to leave without comment Prigozhin's statement that the Wagner forces near Bakhmut are grinding the resources of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Prigozhin can afford to make any statements, but the fact that the forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are grinding while on the defensive - we just allow ourselves to remain silent about this. As well as quite reasonably, we will ignore the statements that the ratio of losses on the advancing Russian side and the defending Ukrainian side is 1 to 8. Let it remain on the conscience of those who made these statements.
    Yes, certain circles are making "certain" efforts to exaggerate the role of PMCs in the NWO ...
    However, it is possible that there will be no consequences. Yes, we got a lot under the question mark, but such is the situation. Very ambiguous and cruel.
    And again, yes...
  10. WFP
    WFP 19 December 2022 12: 29
    0
    Quote from solar
    It's time to stop this leapfrog Bakhmut - Artemovsk.
    Bakhmut is an old Russian name from the time of Ivan the Terrible and the Bakhmut guard-fortress on the site of the future city. Actually, the name Bakhmut was given by Peter 1. I don’t understand the reasons for confusing the reader and holding on to the Soviet name.

    And I will answer you. About twenty years ago, a referendum was held in the city on two issues:
    1. Return to the city of the historical name "Bakhmut"
    2. The return of historical names to streets renamed in the city during the Soviet era.
    If the second answer received a positive decision in the referendum, then according to the first one, the residents of the city almost unanimously refused to rename Artemovsk to Bakhmut.
    Subsequently, the renaming was carried out by a behind-the-scenes decision of the military-civilian administration. So that's right - if you want to see Bakhmut on the map - hold a new referendum, and then rename it.
    Although I, and many, it seems to me, believe that the memory of Artem (Sergeev), the founder of the Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Republic, is worthy of this.
    1. solar
      solar 19 December 2022 13: 13
      +1
      the simplest search on the Internet shows that when renaming Bakhmut to Artemovsk, no referendum was held, and the return of the old Russian name to the city was the decision of the local city council by an overwhelming majority of votes of local deputies based on the results of public discussion in different districts of the city to choose from 2 options, and not "behind the scenes decision of the military-civilian administration.
      And that referendum that you are writing about, in fact, was not 20 years ago, but 30 - even under the USSR - there was one newspaper in the city at that time - the local district committee, so the result was predictable
      almost unanimously, the inhabitants of the city refused to rename Artemovsk to Bakhmut.

      Already then, under the communists, 25 percent voted for the return of the old Russian name.
  11. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 19 December 2022 12: 54
    -1
    Hell's meat grinder in the village can only be justified by one. Namely, the preparation of coverage, encirclement and capture or destruction of a large enemy grouping.
  12. and-yakovl
    and-yakovl 19 December 2022 14: 04
    -12
    I began to read and immediately the thought of who wrote looked exactly like he - "everything is gone", everything is bad. How can one express diametrically opposed thoughts in one article. In each article, he moans and moans, everything is wrong with him and not like that. Remove this bastard already.
    1. Kronos
      Kronos 19 December 2022 14: 23
      +8
      Of course, it’s much more pleasant to read how we are them, though everything doesn’t work out in any way, but the smoke of a pleasant illusion is much sweeter.
      1. and-yakovl
        and-yakovl 22 December 2022 13: 35
        0
        That's not the point, as Shukshin's hero said in "They Fought for the Motherland" - But I see no reason to pinch my tail between my legs, according to dog custom. ... And it really works like that, I watched a documentary movie about wolves, there two packs approached for battle, and the tails of one pack of wolves stood upright, and the tails of the second were tucked in, guess who won.
        The author himself writes that the significance is purely political, but in the end, well, if we take it, then there are strategic advantages, and he moans in every article - he's tired of it.
  13. Alex_5
    Alex_5 19 December 2022 15: 02
    0
    If the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the Allies win, then the West, with doubts about the victories of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and mercenaries, will supply Ukraine with weapons and equipment many times less and will quickly put an end to Ukraine, because now the Russian soldier is making politics on the battlefield.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. haron
        haron 23 December 2022 01: 18
        -2
        Quote from Canna Steinfeldgrubber
        ! Russia started the war virtually without allies.

        I will disappoint you.
        Paradoxical as it may seem, but the allies of the Russian Federation, albeit indirectly, were Germany, France, and partly even the United States. Their leadership and the military were practically sure that the Ukrainians would not hold out for more than a month. The West buried Ukraine and was ready to give it to the Russian Federation. Preliminary assistance was either in the form of small batches of ATGMs, MANPADS, etc. little things ... which is not a pity to lose, and to clean up a little conscience. Some US Army men decided to play "strategy". Together with the Armed Forces of Ukraine, they theoretically developed and worked out plans for different scenarios of the start of the war. From the very beginning, almost a month, the main help was only information.
        As everyone writes here, the West is the West, it will never invest in a losing business.
        Moreover, Ukraine owes the West more than the Russian Federation. Under the existing Ukrainian state apparatus and laws, neither the Russian Federation nor the EEC had any illusions about the return of debts.
        Politicians screwed up their eyes, closed their ears and waited for a loud but short bang. And when they opened .... then the bummer came out.
        1. anjey
          anjey 24 December 2022 10: 58
          0
          Nonsense, not for that they prepared Krajina for 8 years, the USA and NATO after the Maidan, brought up in the spirit of hatred for Russia, armed, trained at the training grounds, it was just that Krajina was the first to attack, according to their plans.
          So the Western sponsors were the first to be taken aback, after the operations of the Russian Federation, such as "Gostomel", they turned the tails of NATO jackals, from this their first military-political reactions, "allies" for all ages laughing And Krajina will cry from such allies, she is already crying ....
          1. haron
            haron 24 December 2022 11: 31
            0
            Quote: anjey
            Nonsense, not for that they prepared Krajina for 8 years, the USA and NATO after the Maidan, brought up in the spirit of hatred for Russia, armed, trained at the training grounds, it was just that Krajina was the first to attack, according to their plans.

            Not even funny. Especially after tightening the tails after Gostomel. You continue to live in a parallel reality. Or deliberately trolling.
  14. Foundling
    Foundling 19 December 2022 16: 16
    +3
    Very unhappy thoughts from this whole situation. The transition from a beautiful picture to a nightmarish reality.
  15. Glagol1
    Glagol1 19 December 2022 16: 16
    +2
    The illiterate organization of the leadership of military operations is compensated by the heroism and ingenuity of our troops. But one cannot win on heroism ...
    Tactical methods of military operations + supply and equipment = the foundation of Victory. That's the problem with this. Everyone climbs into the forehead, although it is clear even to children - to cut the supply channels once, to surround in parts - two. Efficient and less loss. Don't blow up bridges... Hyperstupidity! Supply channels are working with might and main. The 404s themselves will blow up the bridges during the retreat. Only how many of our soldiers will be killed before that.
  16. pogis
    pogis 19 December 2022 20: 46
    +3
    Quote: lithium17
    Quote: pogis
    or rush before the start of a strategic offensive

    Oh, I beg you! Yes, about the beginning of the "great victory", a successful offensive, a terrible defeat, the presence of unexpected plans, there is no need to attract a full-fledged army .., the destruction of air defense, aviation. A fair punishment for the people of Azov and all criminals, and only about the care and preparation of resources ... I took off my rose-colored glasses a long time ago, especially after the first Chechnya and its famous Grachev breakthrough by one airborne regiment!

    And how did the 2 Chechen ended, recall or is it something else?
  17. Herman 4223
    Herman 4223 19 December 2022 21: 19
    -3
    “And what about Bakhmut and Artyomovsk?”
    You already have nothing, now it is the territory of Russia.
  18. Veter5757
    Veter5757 19 December 2022 23: 21
    0
    And in Artemovsk there was a good factory of Champagne wines, one of the best in the USSR and Ukraine .... Now it is already in the hands of Wagner. Champagne is aged in underground adits and should not suffer.
  19. flicker
    flicker 19 December 2022 23: 23
    +5
    Meaning three. Prigozhinsky Both the forces of the DPR and the Wagner detachments are fighting hand in hand for Artyomovsk. Here we boldly emphasize that these are two very motivated and well-prepared forces. That is why there is such a hell and that both sides have something to fight for, moreover, regardless of the losses.

    But if Artyomovsk is occupied, Prigozhin, who has already repeatedly criticized the command of the Russian army (quite deservedly), can significantly strengthen his position in Putin's eyes, showing that in terms of successful operations, he understands more than some with stars and stripes.

    With all due respect to PMC Wagner (let's not forget that PMC Wagner is not equal to Prigozhin) and to the "forces of the DPR" it should still be noted that without the Russian Armed Forces, neither the first nor the second would have existed.
    ---
    And in general, it is necessary to split less and oppose each other various units and various types of troops participating in the NWO.
    ---
    So the meaning of the third - about nothing.
    1. Seraphimamur
      Seraphimamur 20 December 2022 10: 10
      +2
      ".. split and oppose to each other various units and various types of troops participating in the NWO." For this, the author of the article Roma skomorokhin receives money.
  20. Konnick
    Konnick 20 December 2022 05: 15
    +6
    We will boldly emphasize here that these are two very motivated and well-prepared forces

    And what are they prepared for? Within a week, two people convicted of murder returned to one regional center in zinc...
  21. Ivanov IV
    Ivanov IV 20 December 2022 08: 38
    0
    Maybe I don't understand something?
    Why take Artyomovsk? Yet they see that only ruins remain of it. Why not use strategic aviation? And deliver "carpet" blows. Roll up all banderlogs in "asphalt".
    What prevents this?
    The same question about Avdiivka.....
    What do you need? What's stopping you? Or who?
  22. Seraphimamur
    Seraphimamur 20 December 2022 10: 07
    -1
    Another opus of Roma skomorokhin to spit on the Army.
  23. Sovpadenie
    Sovpadenie 20 December 2022 10: 53
    +2
    "Second meaning. Donetsk" is related to political meanings. Reduce the shelling of Donetsk - political sense? Tell the people of Donetsk about it. And personally. Eyes to eyes. Let them understand that their lives are just politics (according to the author of the article)
  24. Eug
    Eug 20 December 2022 13: 08
    +1
    God, what amazing champagne was made in Artemovsk... eh...
  25. Valnik
    Valnik 20 December 2022 19: 04
    0
    Yes, we are involved in street fighting. Where are the dashing attacks with tank avalanches across the fields and detours of motorized infantry with the landing of tactical assault forces? Again, they were preparing for the wrong war. It's time to create special equipment for the capture of fortress cities. There is something for engineers to think about. In the Middle Ages, siege towers were used for this and trenches were led directly to the walls of fortresses. Why don't they do it now? With current technology.
  26. pogis
    pogis 20 December 2022 19: 43
    0
    Quote from Valnik
    Yes, we are involved in street fighting. Where are the dashing attacks with tank avalanches across the fields and detours of motorized infantry with the landing of tactical assault forces? Again, they were preparing for the wrong war. It's time to create special equipment for the capture of fortress cities. There is something for engineers to think about. In the Middle Ages, siege towers were used for this and trenches were led directly to the walls of fortresses. Why don't they do it now? With current technology.

    If you believe the Military Acceptance, there are 2 brigades, as it were.
  27. pogis
    pogis 20 December 2022 19: 44
    -2
    Quote: Ivanov IV
    Maybe I don't understand something?
    Why take Artyomovsk? Yet they see that only ruins remain of it. Why not use strategic aviation? And deliver "carpet" blows. Roll up all banderlogs in "asphalt".
    What prevents this?
    The same question about Avdiivka.....
    What do you need? What's stopping you? Or who?

    The proximity of the opposing sides.
    1. newtc7
      newtc7 20 December 2022 23: 57
      0
      Quote: pogis
      Quote: Ivanov IV
      Maybe I don't understand something?
      Why take Artyomovsk? Yet they see that only ruins remain of it. Why not use strategic aviation? And deliver "carpet" blows. Roll up all banderlogs in "asphalt".
      What prevents this?
      The same question about Avdiivka.....
      What do you need? What's stopping you? Or who?

      The proximity of the opposing sides.


      No, what is the location. They are afraid that they will knock down strategists, so they don’t use it. There are no CABs, but ordinary ones need to fly right over the battlefield
  28. pogis
    pogis 20 December 2022 19: 45
    +1
    Quote from Veter5757
    And in Artemovsk there was a good factory of Champagne wines, one of the best in the USSR and Ukraine .... Now it is already in the hands of Wagner. Champagne is aged in underground adits and should not suffer.

    In the Ukrainian SSR as part of the USSR.
  29. Clone
    Clone 20 December 2022 19: 48
    -2
    The so-called "freedom of speech" during the war is undisguised help to the enemy. These are, figuratively speaking, "ammunition" with a moderator disguised as truthfulness, voluntarily provided to the stupid amoebic "cissota" and their advanced "mentors" in provocations, who will then shoot "facts" in the back of those who are now defending the interests with weapons in their hands Russian state. This is a betrayal, whose ears stick out in the text of the next talker's opus on absolutely all military topics. Ndaaa ... has Dontsova changed her role?
  30. odisey3000
    odisey3000 20 December 2022 19: 54
    +1
    All bullshit, where is the capture of Artemovsk, Bakhmut, where is the victory. And as for the ruins, look at what is left of Stalingrad. Then and now.
  31. pogis
    pogis 20 December 2022 20: 00
    -2
    Quote: Civil
    "Battle" for mountains of rubble.

    In Stalingrad, why didn’t they fight for those mountains of rubble? And how did it end? And for quotes I spit in your face cockhorn!
  32. Alexey T.
    Alexey T. 20 December 2022 20: 59
    +2
    The author contradicts himself with every subsequent paragraph. Either there is no military significance, some show-offs, or the prospect of strategic success. And the whole article is built on these contradictions. Well, the fact that he does not believe in grinding should be substantiated with numbers. Because other authors justify: Bandera are forced to constantly transfer reinforcements. Also, it would be possible to reveal the ratio of losses (at least your counter conjectures).
  33. Canna Steinfeldgrubber
    Canna Steinfeldgrubber 20 December 2022 23: 45
    0
    Quote: Herman 4223
    “And what about Bakhmut and Artyomovsk?”
    You already have nothing, now it is the territory of Russia.

    I think that you can safely go there and proclaim it, if this is really Russia.
    Take off those damn rose-colored glasses.
  34. newtc7
    newtc7 20 December 2022 23: 55
    0
    The analysis is just about nothing. The mess goes there simply because we don’t have the strength to blunt anywhere else. Yes, there are the most prepared units, what is the ratio of losses there, only God knows. It is impossible to understand what Putin is waiting for, but all this is strongly disliked. Artyomovsk will not become any goal of prestige, the only thing that can be meaningful is to really grind the best parts of the enemy there. Perhaps everything is so, but perhaps there we don’t have any plan at all, as always there is only one plan “maybe”.
  35. the same doctor
    the same doctor 21 December 2022 13: 46
    -1
    Destroyed Artyomovsk is the fruit of mercy to Bandera, Miller's record prices and Khusnulin's cooperation with Bandera officials.
  36. storm
    storm 21 December 2022 23: 22
    0
    Everything goes according to the plans of the United States and Ukraine, as they said, the Russian Donbass turns into lifeless ruins, while Western and Central Ukraine get off with only a "light fright" in the form of a periodic power outage ....
  37. Vladimir Mikhalev
    Vladimir Mikhalev 23 December 2022 08: 42
    0
    There is also a third component. Grinding the enemy. The more experienced or experimental meat the enemy leaves, the less experienced or experimental meat will be in the future.