Military Review

Russian tanks

130

Magnificent shooting in the shops "Uralvagonzavod" and at the site "Prospector". The Kazakh BMPT, the upgraded T-72B2 (also known as "Slingshot") and many export Algerian T-90C.

Description: An absolute world record in tank building was achieved in the Urals. Since 1941, in Nizhny Tagil, about 100 thousand units of armored vehicles were produced. Every third tank that participated in the battles of World War II was made at the Ural Car-Building Plant. In just 2 months, the enterprise created for peaceful production turned into a gigantic defense complex. Nizhny Tagil, where 12 plants were evacuated from the western regions of the country, in a matter of weeks became a real tank city. The first and only in the world was built at UVZ tank the conveyor, from which the legendary tank T-34 descended every hour during the war years. World famous Russian tanks from the first developments of Soviet designers to the latest generation of combat vehicles can be seen in the museum of armored vehicles located in Nizhny Tagil. And the Ural Car-Building Plant today holds the position of the leader in the production of Russian defense equipment.

Originator:
http://gurkhan.blogspot.ru
130 comments
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  1. Vanek
    Vanek 2 November 2012 07: 39
    +10
    Our tanks are the most tank !!! And they look much more beautiful. It is corny more beautiful.
    1. Sasha 19871987
      Sasha 19871987 2 November 2012 10: 39
      +4
      Yes, Russian gunsmiths are very talented people .... there is no arguing
    2. ShturmKGB
      ShturmKGB 2 November 2012 10: 40
      -4
      Yes, our gut is thin, but our tanks are fast!
      1. Armata
        Armata 2 November 2012 12: 44
        0
        ShturmKGB
        0








        Yes, our gut is thin, but our tanks are fast!

        Yes FIG knows. The engineers themselves say that our T72B "Slingshot", although costly (it's easier to make a new one than to modernize the old one), but in comparison with it, only a modernized T80 can stand next to it (I apologize in advance for mistakes, I'm writing from a tablet)
        1. Sergh
          Sergh 2 November 2012 16: 10
          +3
          Well, this apparatus looked very well to me, what should not be given to its peasant tankmen.

          1. vorobey
            vorobey 2 November 2012 16: 17
            +5
            Sergh,
            I welcome Sergey. has already spoken out on this topic. See Slingshot playing the role of a second-tier machine or the base in defense completely fulfills its task. Upgrading 72 is cheaper than the new 90. It’s better to push the current headstock into the development of aviation and air defense, as well as into the Armat project, and after a few years, the new machine will already be able to change the slingshot in volumes rather than piece by piece.
            it is so briefly. in principle, we see it now.
          2. Artem6688
            Artem6688 3 November 2012 00: 12
            0
            Because they will soon be given Armata
            1. CRONOS
              CRONOS 3 November 2012 00: 19
              +1
              Because they will soon be given Armata

              Armature will be given to them oud definitely not soon. Armata does not even have towers in metal. Until they finish designing, while they are running in, they will bring to mind ... I would not hurry to see thousands of Armats in their units in the coming years.
  2. FREGATENKAPITAN
    FREGATENKAPITAN 2 November 2012 07: 42
    +9
    We have something to be proud of! Tanks, aircraft, submarines and surface ships, SZO, air defense systems ........
    Our weapons will surprise the world more than once!
    1. Vanek
      Vanek 2 November 2012 07: 55
      +3
      Quote: FREGATENKAPITAN
      Our weapons more than once will surprise peace!


      Maybe it will save request
    2. tronin.maxim
      tronin.maxim 2 November 2012 08: 15
      +8
      Quote: FREGATENKAPITAN

      We have something to be proud of! Tanks, aircraft, submarines and surface ships, SZO, air defense systems ........
      Our weapons will surprise the world more than once!
  3. Manager
    Manager 2 November 2012 07: 56
    +10
    This is what we are building at Wagonzavod! Now fear the Americans! Imagine what we will build at the tank factory!
  4. sergo0000
    sergo0000 2 November 2012 08: 15
    +8
    The video is excellent. Only the platform of modern tanks doesn’t come from T72 but from T64. This is the so-called great-grandfather of modern tanks.
    The detail seems to be insignificant but very important for the history of tank building.
    So it is with our story.
    The whole devil is in the details.
  5. The centurion
    The centurion 2 November 2012 08: 18
    +2
    Our tanks in the world market have one huge problem. This is their extremely unsuccessful combat use in the postwar years. In 50-80 years in the world there was a magnificent permanent range for testing military equipment and new tactical methods in combat conditions. This training ground was called the Arab-Israeli war. So in the 4-x Arab-Israeli wars, our equipment (including tank) never won. In pursuit of power reserve and ammunition size, our designers crossed the line of reason and turned the post-war model of tanks into "burning like matches and tearing like firecrackers." So unflattering they were called by the godfather of the Israeli victories of 1967 and 1973 of the year, the great tanker Israel Tal. Then Iraq was added, and twice. The military and gunsmiths came up with a convenient explanation for themselves, they say Arab soldiers are bad soldiers. In many ways, this is justified. But any marketer will say that this is a weak argument for a potential buyer. Because military equipment and weapons are needed, first of all, not for parade parades, but for victory in armed struggle. And honor and glory to our fellow countrymen, Tagil gunsmiths and sellers, that even in these terrible marketing conditions they have done and are doing good exports. I believe that they will worthily work on the mistakes and in this century will create excellent cars for future victories.
    1. vorobey
      vorobey 2 November 2012 09: 47
      +5
      Centurion. here you are like a smart man, but you wrote such a beleberd.
      1. The centurion
        The centurion 2 November 2012 10: 39
        0
        Quote: vorobey
        but such a beleberd was written

        In which place?
        1. vorobey
          vorobey 2 November 2012 10: 55
          +7
          Quote: vorobey
          Our tanks in the world market have one huge problem. This is their extremely unsuccessful combat use in the postwar years.

          Quote: Centurion
          make a good export


          Hindus, Chinese. Algerians, Pakistan. Yes, and South Korea does not know a damn buying tanks of the Soviet school.

          Centurion
          Quote: Centurion
          great tanker Israel Tal

          In what place is the great tanker. The great tanker, I consider one Heinz Guderian, who created the immortal work of the concept of using tanks (relevant today in the light of the three types of brigades). and in practice proved its viability. Now it’s just deep processing and adaptation.

          Quote: Centurion
          Iraq, and twice


          Show me a photo with which beaten beaten 72, where there is a break through the frontal bronmi
          Typical of a tank battle.

          A lot of topics were discussed in Iraq. Why didn’t the Abrams come into direct conflict with the Teshki? Why did the coalition troops urgently modernize their abrams and put a more powerful cannon? All the praises do not give a direct answer, they leave. Well, how do you admit that Abrams was inferior in terms of armament power and go directly into the battle vigilantly. here they hit the teshes from inaccessible ATGMs and aircraft.
          1. The centurion
            The centurion 2 November 2012 11: 32
            -4
            Quote: vorobey
            In what place is the great tanker.

            In the very one where your favorite Guderian is in the first place, and Tal is in the second place. You can easily find answers to your questions if you get acquainted with Tal's instructions to Israeli tankmen when he became their commander in chief in 65. If he served in the SA, he would have become at least three times a Hero of the USSR, 1 times for a victory in 67, a second time for a victory in 73, a third time for the creation of Merkava. But it’s a pity we didn’t serve ours.
            1. vorobey
              vorobey 2 November 2012 11: 58
              +5
              Quote: Centurion
              In the very one where is your beloved Guderian


              Guderian generally lost the war, something like that. And he lost to Russian tanks.
            2. Armata
              Armata 2 November 2012 21: 50
              +1
              Quote: Centurion
              third time for the creation of the Merkava.
              Otto pancake invented. And that we do not have our own worthy tanks?
              1. CRONOS
                CRONOS 2 November 2012 23: 59
                -1
                Each tank deserves respect for the designers and attention to itself personally. But the tank must meet all modern requirements. And we still do not have such tanks. Maybe with Armata they’ll gain and liquidate the backlog. I really want to look at her (Armata) with at least one eye. laughing
          2. gor
            gor 2 November 2012 11: 34
            -7
            Quote: vorobey
            A lot of topics were discussed in Iraq. Why didn’t the Abrams come into direct conflict with the Teshki? Why did the coalition troops urgently modernize their abrams and put a more powerful cannon? All the praises do not give a direct answer, they leave. Well, how do you admit that Abrams was inferior in terms of armament power and go directly into the battle vigilantly. here they hit the teshes from inaccessible ATGMs and aircraft.

            I would advise not only to enter into a direct collision, but also to be measured by members of the tankers. The Americans destroyed the enemy’s equipment by all available means and praise them in this respect. and from 72 mm guns of the first modifications of the abrams. says why there is no photo. after the operations against Iraq in the desert there were whole cemeteries of Iraqi armored vehicles
            1. Kars
              Kars 2 November 2012 11: 47
              +6
              Quote: gor
              tacheki made their way out of 105 mm guns of the first modifications of abrams

              He himself said)))))))))))
              Quote: gor
              no need to tell stories

              Have they even met? When was there still a crew in the vehicles?

              And ask you to provide evidence to these words of yours))))))))
              Quote: gor
              yes, after operations against Iraq in the desert there were whole cemeteries of Iraqi armored vehicles

              It’s just that their photos are so small, as if the Americans had fewer cameras than the Germans in 1941)))))))
              1. aksakal
                aksakal 2 November 2012 12: 02
                0
                Quote: Kars
                Have they even met? When there was still a crew in the vehicles? And ask you to provide evidence to these words of yours))))))))

                - welcome, old opponent! Or is he no longer an opponent? -)))).
                1. Kars
                  Kars 2 November 2012 13: 08
                  +2
                  Quote: aksakal
                  - welcome, old opponent! Or is he no longer an opponent? -)))).

                  Without a clue, I'm an opponent of haters and rhetoric. And see for yourself there.
                2. aksakal
                  aksakal 2 November 2012 13: 23
                  0
                  Quote: Kars
                  Without a clue, I'm an opponent of haters and rhetoric. And see for yourself there.

                  -
                  Quote: Kars
                  component

                  - the opponent actually. Well, there is a bit of arrogance in your words, I admit, numerous spelling mistakes do not affect the positioning of yourself as a competent specialist -))))))). And spelling is a very good indicator of the level of literacy, and hence the level of professionalism - checked by life -))))). So we continue the debate about kloeso and the caterpillar -)))). For the charges put forward by you leave me no choice.
                  What was your last stop? On the fact that I called the widespread musculoskeletal system of tanks not the best solution, did you rush into his defense? At the same time, skillfully displaying the confirmation of my accusations against the caterpillar as an objection to my own arguments - like, yes, it is advisable to bring them to the front line.
                  Well, from the words we proceed to a deeper discussion of the topic - at the level of calculations and digital confirmation of their arguments? Let's start
                  So the wheel:
                  1. The pneumatic wheel, which has deservedly become the “master” among the currently known locomotor devices of land vehicles, is the most successful construction among its rivals when driving on asphalt roads and roads with a flat surface. We list these advantages:
                  1. Easy to roll, using the full inertia forces there are no stable positions on the rim, which is why the hub moves strictly parallel to the support plane. Therefore, the force of weight falling on the wheel does not do the job when driving on an asphalt road;
                  2. The wheel has a very simple design and, as a result, increased reliability in operation, a huge overhaul life;
                  3. When driving on a level road, the wheel has excellent dynamic balance characteristics;
                  4. Has good maneuverability;
                  5. Equips high speeds and has a large carrying capacity;
                  Deficiencies indicate provide you. For example, what happens to a wheel when hitting a bump? It is advisable with the layout according to the acting forces (in the vector image) and where the inertial forces are lost when the wheel hits the bump. Then we continue the same on slippery soils, on marshy grunts, etc. Over the tracks after all this.
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 2 November 2012 13: 45
                    +3
                    Quote: aksakal
                    And spelling is a very good indicator of literacy rates.

                    Quote: aksakal
                    about kloeso

                    ????????
                    Quote: aksakal
                    What was your last stop?

                    it would be better to return to the loss of power of tank engines
                    Quote: aksakal
                    So wheel

                    How much does a modern wheel like an BTR Boxer cost?
                    Quote: aksakal
                    traffic on paved roads and roads with a flat surface.

                    ))))))))))))
                    Quote: aksakal
                    2. The wheel has a very simple design and, as a result, increased reliability in operation, a huge overhaul life

                    For machines weighing more than 30 tons? With work on difficult terrain and with extreme loads?
                    Quote: aksakal
                    on a flat road wheel

                    Why should I bother about a flat road?
                    Quote: aksakal
                    Then we continue the same on slippery soils, on marshy grunts, etc. Over the tracks after all this.

                    Well, I think the photo in this article is viewed from high on the wheel)))
                    Quote: aksakal
                    type, yes, it is advisable to bring to the front line

                    You see, the wheels were useful for something, although you should not forget the railway.
                    1. aksakal
                      aksakal 2 November 2012 15: 29
                      0
                      Quote: Kars
                      For machines weighing more than 30 tons? With work on difficult terrain and with extreme loads?
                      - EXTREME, the test word is extremum, a mathematical term from matanalysis.
                      This is not the answer I expected from you. Since we have a superficial knowledge, let's move on to the "superficial" level.
                      By the way, if anything, Belaz, Caterpillar and Liebherra record holders drive on wheels and on complete off-road. And they weigh much more than 30 tons only themselves, and how much they have on their "backs" sometimes happens - generally keep quiet. But I'm not behind the wheels, but by the way.

                      I requested in
                      Quote: aksakal
                      Disadvantages indicate provide you

                      I will do it myself:
                      To increase the passability of vehicles in case of deterioration of the road surface or under off-road conditions, design practice resorts primarily to increasing the diameter of the wheel and the shape of the tread surface. Figure a) shows a picture of the collision of the wheel rim with the roughness of the road, which clearly shows that after the wheel hits an obstacle at point “K”, the latter exerts resistance, which is considered in two directions of the degrees of freedom of the wheels Vх and Vy. The pressure of the wheel on the obstacle and, accordingly, the reaction of the soil (obstacle) on the wheel mutually cause soil deformation and disappear. The fraction of the remaining kinetic energy of the wheel corresponding to this pressure component is zero. This part irrevocably disappears, passing into work for soil deformation. The remaining part of the total kinetic energy of the wheel with mass "M" goes into work lifting the wheel up, creating a driving moment that rolls the wheel over the surface of the obstacle .. Thus, the wheel after each collision with the obstacle irretrievably loses part of the accumulated kinetic energy. The movement of the wheel in off-road conditions and obstacles becomes energy-consuming and uncomfortable.

                      By the way, guys, how to place an accompanying drawing here? And then without a drawing beloved.

                      Well, this is the first drawback - the loss of an unacceptably large proportion of kinetic energy. Second:
                      an ordinary wheel when climbing a bump requires the application of a moving moment МДВ, larger than the moment of resistance Мс, which is created by the weight of the wheel together with the weight of the transport itself, i.e.:
                      Ms = G * h,
                      Where G is part of the weight of the vehicle along with the weight of the wheel;
                      h is the shoulder of the force of weight G relative to the fulcrum "K".
                      To move to the bump you need:
                      Мдв> Мс, where Мдв = P * h, P - the value of the required lifting force;
                      Since the value of the shoulder h in these cases is almost equal and commensurate with the radius of the wheel r, then
                      P = G * h / h = G,
                      Ie. transport has to raise its weight every time on each bump, which is very difficult. It should also be borne in mind that the tussock should not exceed 1/3 of the diameter of the wheel.


                      Well, somehow I expected. Now I’ll learn how to place and place drawings.
                      So, we determined the flaws of the wheel on off-road, more precisely, on the part of the off-road in the form of bumps, I think that this should not be done on slippery or marshy soils - and so everything is clear. Waiting

                      I am waiting for you to describe the advantages of the crawler track. Here are just no words - no longer accepted. On the surface, so on the surface, formulas and a strict definition are what you need.
                      1. Denzel13
                        Denzel13 2 November 2012 17: 50
                        +2
                        Aksakal, I am not an expert in the tank business, but the BMD is also not wheeled, and I would be extremely uncomfortable (as a user) from the thought that any "enemy", even with 7,62, could very much immobilize a combat vehicle. I'm not talking about 12,7, since this is not for BMD armor. But how annoying it will be for a tanker who really understands that, for example, little will pierce him in the forehead, but a fighter with a machine gun can immobilize him.
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 2 November 2012 18: 26
                        +3
                        A doctor, rather a doctor))))))))))))))))
                        Quote: aksakal
                        Belaz, Caterpillar

                        ))))))))))

                        And the rest - write letters to UVZ. Let's look at Armata on wheels)))))))))))
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 12: 22
                        +3
                        Quote: aksakal
                        Here are just no words - no longer accepted

                        the horror of Jewish mothers, as they still didn’t drive Zahal under the baseboard for such mockery))))
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 12: 24
                        +1
                        But the wheel bend))))))))))
                  2. vorobey
                    vorobey 2 November 2012 13: 46
                    +3
                    Aksakal, Kars, what is the argument?
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 2 November 2012 13: 49
                      +2
                      Quote: vorobey
                      Aksakal, Kars, what is the argument?

                      about a wheeled tank and he also believes that I consider Abrams the best tank))
                      how did you notice this for me?
                      1. aksakal
                        aksakal 2 November 2012 14: 17
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        about a wheeled tank, and he also believes that I consider Abrams the best tank)) how did you notice such a thing for me?

                        - there is such a thing, maybe I misunderstood when Kars, together with some pro-Westerner, was just a fan of Abramych (most importantly, together, in a friendly and solidarity that I really didn’t like very much) we came upon me for daring to stand up for T-90 And together, jointly and FRIENDLY, they tried to prove something. Now we jump from Abramych? Friendship does not need to be led with pro-Westerners, they will not even call you like that pro-Western, nickname has forgotten him and I do not want to know. Tell me who your friend is called. So do not be surprised that you were confused there.
                        You, by the way, have beguiled in the same way. I am not at all a fan of the wheel and a purely wheeled tank, then I just outlined the shortcomings of the tracks and also noted "that reinventing the wheel does not mean perceived as a proverb, the wheel can and should be modified." If I said this, it does not mean at all that I insist on a wheeled tank, it means that it is possible to make such a design of the musculoskeletal system, in which there would be advantages and wheels - I have listed them above, and the advantages of a caterpillar track (under a caterpillar drive I generally understand an expanded and generalized interpretation of it in a purely technical sense, in which movement-movement is carried out by moving one part of the propeller (together with the carried body and, accordingly, the center of gravity) while the other part of it remains stationary, well, the links of the propeller, etc. ) Due to the small volume and fast change of news, it is not possible to complete the dispute
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 2 November 2012 14: 26
                        +2
                        Quote: aksakal
                        for daring to stand up for the T-90.

                        But you don’t need to lie when you are trying to intercede, first say that the specific power of the T-90 is equal to or even higher than that of Abrams, and then when you were told on your fingers that Abrams had more, they started to dodge the loss of power at the checkpoint, even though the Soviet checkpoint what is wonderful in your words for some reason changes to the T-90MS for a similar bourgeois one.
                        Quote: aksakal
                        ? Friendship is not necessary with pro-Westerners

                        I want to be friends with anyone I want.
                        Quote: aksakal
                        what you got there

                        It is easy to confuse your superficial knowledge.
                        Quote: aksakal
                        in which there would be advantages and wheels - I have listed them above, and the advantages of the tracked track (under the tracked track

                        Quote: aksakal
                        Now we jump from Abramych?

                        With what joy is it that I wrote here that contradicts my previous words? And I will also always upset the hat-takers who are going to burn Abramsa from DShK))))
                        Quote: aksakal
                        I can’t complete the dispute

                        What are the problems? I regularly check my comments, and if I know that you will return))
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 12: 25
                        0
                        Quote: aksakal
                        what can be done such a design of the musculoskeletal system in which there would be advantages and wheels -

                        BT already built)))
                        But the ideal campaign)))))))
                      4. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 12: 39
                        +3
                        Kars,
                        Now, if one such "ideal" is being driven along the highway, then it normally overtook it further, but if there are three pieces, then you will weave, especially uphill, soldier
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 12: 46
                        0
                        What do you have with railway?
                        Because, as I understand it, Merkava in assembled condition does not fit into the railway dimensions.

                        And if the convoy will go on its own? Seen this?
                      6. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 12: 56
                        +1
                        Kars,
                        There is no such thing under its own power, even army ATVs carry on tractors, about the train, I have never even seen freight trains, only passenger ones, I sort of saw freight trains on the sorting station, but I'm not sure that they are being used.

                        Kars,
                        the only way
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 12: 57
                        +1
                        Quote: igor67
                        even army ATVs are carried on tractors

                        That is, army chariots are transported on transporters? But in general, do you have wheeled armored personnel carriers, armored personnel carriers in the IDF? Otherwise, I admit I was slightly interested in Israel’s wheeled vehicles, more and more merkas, knockpads, etc.
                      8. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 13: 07
                        +1
                        Kars,
                        No, but Israel’s wheeled. By the way, from the Ukrainian there is probably no Soviet past. In 74, we built our house 3 meters from the HF. (Makashov commanded) and in the morning tanks on new asphalt in Baturin to the landfill. Naturally there was nothing left of asphalt .. and so three times. New asphalt and tanks who knew Makashov’s tyrant. The traffic police tried to stop the column of tanks so he himself seized the levers and chased the cops on the tank. We are great children. In short, they still ordered Makashov and since then the tanks were carried only in hardships
                      9. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 13: 14
                        0
                        aksakal,
                        ))))) can you imagine in Israel that the wheel to tanks and armored personnel carriers was not snuggled)))
                        Quote: igor67
                        no, but wheeled in Israel

                        I don’t even know what to think.
                        Quote: igor67
                        Makashova samodur. GAI tried to stop the column of tanks so he himself seized the levers and chased the cops on the tank. And we are great children

                        It is a pity that then there was no cell phone with cameras)))))))) I would have looked at it.
                      10. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 13: 26
                        0
                        Quote: igor67
                        no, but wheeled in Israel

                        Igoryanich is, armored vehicles (such as Hammers, Suuf and Ram)
                        Well, the largest of the wheeled
                      11. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 13: 29
                        0
                        Karish,
                        the first time I see and hear. Hammer is most likely an armored car. in my understanding. And this is the miracle of San Bemat I see for the first time belay
                      12. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 13: 15
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        That is, army carts are transported on transporters? But in general do you have wheeled armored personnel carriers, armored personnel carriers in the AOI?

                        Well, not always, Hammers, Sufa and other light BMPs. They sometimes ride by themselves (usually in columns), and in general Igor is right, mainly on throttles, but this is connected with insurance (as the technique entering the roadway - obligated to be insured by compulsory insurance. It makes sense to insure BMPs - if they can travel once a year on the road, no, it’s cheaper to transport them with throttles.
                      13. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 13: 09
                        +1
                        Quote: igor67
                        I have never even seen freight trains, only passenger ones, I sort of saw freight trains at the sorting station, but I'm not sure that they are being used.

                        Hi Igoryanich
                        , in general, there are trucks, mostly transported from Haifa and Dead Sea factories, but generally minuscule, mostly thrillers. When they build a branch in Jordan and Eilat, it will probably change
                        Tanks and BMPs are only transported in throttles.
                      14. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 13: 20
                        0
                        Karish,
                        hi Sanych! I only thought about you, because a piece of iron passes near you. I watch the Chinese quickly build a new branch to Karmiel and break through the tunnel
                      15. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 13: 28
                        -1
                        Quote: igor67
                        hi Sanych! I only thought about you, because a piece of iron passes near you. I watch the Chinese quickly build a new branch to Karmiel and break through the tunnel

                        The second leads to Beit Shan and further to Jordan
                      16. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 13: 38
                        -1
                        Karish,
                        I want to see Peter. maybe it will be easier on the piece of iron
                      17. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 15: 15
                        +1
                        Quote: igor67
                        I want to see Peter. maybe it will be easier on the piece of iron

                        The beauty is there. The easiest way is from Eilat. 2 hours drive
                      18. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 12: 58
                        +2
                        Kars,
                        my wife overtook and took off
                      19. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 13: 01
                        +2
                        It’s fair to say I don’t know whether it is good or not to see military equipment so often.
                        I've seen a couple of weeks Nazat BTR 70 seen on the highway .. so there was so much surprise.
                      20. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 13: 17
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        It’s fair to say I don’t know whether it is good or not to see military equipment so often.
                        I've seen a couple of weeks Nazat BTR 70 seen on the highway .. so there was so much surprise.


                        I travel a lot and see how they are transported constantly, Merkava-4 is simply mesmerizing with beauty. But in general, the country is small, there are many tanks, they drag them back there often.
                      21. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 5 November 2012 13: 23
                        0
                        .............................................................
                      22. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 13: 33
                        0
                        Hi, Sasha, I’ll even say in which place the picture was taken, because I have already visited so much I remember all the landscapes by heart. This is not far from the intersection of the Golani (northern Israel), most likely (judging by the side of the road) they’re being taken to the Shimson (Samson) repair base
                      23. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 5 November 2012 13: 36
                        +1
                        Sasha, good afternoon, you’ve just intrigued me with your post, so I dig in the Internet and find it. I can imagine what would happen if tanks drove around Moscow laughing
                      24. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 13: 44
                        0
                        You know, we are so familiar that it doesn’t cause any emotions, And all the soldiers go with weapons and when the tribe came from the army for the weekend, he first of all (so as not to carry it with him since it’s forbidden to leave the weapon) dismantled his M-16 on components and hid in different angles, he was afraid that his younger brother would do something with him. Well, when there is nowhere to leave, something happens that doesn’t surprise anyone
                      25. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 5 November 2012 13: 51
                        -1
                        I remember Sash, you wrote about the tribe.
                      26. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 13: 36
                        0
                        Karish,
                        Sanych when we go to consider landscapes? drinks
                      27. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 13: 47
                        0
                        Quote: igor67
                        Sanych when we go to consider landscapes?

                        Well, it’s already necessary, now I’ll be back from Eilat, the first rains will pass, we’ll go to your places for mushrooms and let them roam the forests there, and we will also be mumps and pork drinks
                      28. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 13: 56
                        -1
                        Karish,
                        I'll call you back. in the afternoon soldier

                        Karish,
                        like me?
                      29. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 15: 20
                        +1
                        It will fly away, last year there were a lot of whites, and 3 years ago in general, at least oblique ....
                        My shuryak likes to climb mushrooms in the mountains, and I have more kebabs, then he pickles them, and I come with a bubble and remove all the cream drinks
                      30. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 15: 23
                        0
                        Karish,
                        As if we were not accused of a flood, but White was not greeted by mosquitoes, rowers, russula, etc.
                      31. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 5 November 2012 15: 25
                        +1
                        Guys go on, the heart rejoices drinks good
                      32. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 15: 30
                        +1
                        alex 241,
                        We have a mushroom shaft, when in Ukraine I start to tell no one believes, everyone has in mind that there is only a desert,
                      33. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 5 November 2012 15: 39
                        +1
                        Igor, I somehow saw the report, you have mushroom paradise there, I myself did not believe it to be honest.
                      34. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 16: 21
                        +1
                        Quote: igor67
                        As if we were not accused of a flood, but White was not met by the Mosquitoes, row-dwellers, russula, etc.

                        I will try mushroom places at Shuryak, in my opinion they are driven into the navigator, last year he only dried more kilos of white yes
                      35. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 13: 34
                        +2
                        alex 241,
                        Yes, Alex Volvo and drags them. but I was riding a steep climb for such a tractor on a bus. our carrier didn’t keep the distance, and suddenly in this Volvo there was a crunch and all this mass began to roll back. From the back of our bus there was a whole collon. Well, it worked out well. but it was honestly scary
                      36. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 5 November 2012 13: 44
                        +1
                        Igor, good day, yes, I saw how in Kazakhstan, the guys on the T72 overtook the Lada, I’ll tell you the same sight, the poor driver of the Lada ............... laughing
                      37. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 13: 53
                        0
                        alex 241,
                        well, I introduced myself in his place wassat I only remember our asphalt after the tanks, only new.
                      38. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 13: 53
                        -1
                        Yes, I liked the same thing in 87 with the father-in-law driving along the dirt road through the Strugokrasnensky training ground (Pskov region), we are 60 kilometers on Zhiguli, and the t-80 on the side of the road, at first caught up with us, and then did the same as puppies and disappeared. Our muzzles were elongated for a long time belay
                      39. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 5 November 2012 13: 57
                        0
                        Sash, so he still buzzed, as it should in the left row and flooded ........... laughing
                      40. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 13: 18
                        +3
                        Kars,
                        I don’t like it. I especially like tanks. I can’t get used to it. Every day they carry all kinds of equipment. I’m a waros in a military unit. I remember from the school and through the fence both on the tank and various armored personnel carriers, especially the old ones, because I hadn’t rolled up already and ran with the machine for the child for happiness. When the soldiers returned from the exercises, they gave us cartridges with whole zinc. tracers were valued, we shot them at night
                      41. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 13: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: igor67
                        I like. I especially like tanks

                        Quote: Karish
                        Merkava-4 is simply mesmerizing with beauty


                        Not guys, I’m not a little about that. You have these frequent meetings are connected with danger. Therefore, if I honestly prefer to see the technique in the photo. Although Merkava also fascinates me.
                      42. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 15: 34
                        +1
                        Kars,
                        You should rest here and take your soul !!!
                      43. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 13: 41
                        +4
                        Kars,
                        All the same, the theme is Russian tanks. Here’s my tank. I visit several times a year. For me, it is still associated with Victory
                      44. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 5 November 2012 13: 49
                        0
                        Igor, here's to you from the 9th of May.
                      45. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 5 November 2012 13: 49
                        0
                        And so on the pedestal.
                      46. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 14: 26
                        +1
                        alex 241,
                        Alex and you !!! though he froze and has been standing for years .... many. climbed with his son this tank. he plays a game the world of tanks has to be exported to vehicles
                      47. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 14: 03
                        -1
                        Where is it ? Igoryanich, at the entrance to Kiryat Shmona 3 and su-100 are standing, maybe saw?
                      48. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 14: 17
                        +2
                        Karish,
                        I saw and for Andrey I shot a video on yut tube
                      49. Karish
                        Karish 5 November 2012 15: 40
                        0
                        Well Igoryanich, you are a hero !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                        This is them - Red, blue, yellow. Well, this is necessary in a white shirt and in a tank. (More precisely, self-propelled gun) They dragged them from the * Valley of Tears *, there the Syrian tanks went to the breakthrough. In general, the same victory monument.
                        By the start of the fighting on October 6, the Israelites had two armored brigades with 177 tanks "Centurion"and one infantry brigade supported by 11 batteries of self-propelled artillery. They were opposed by three Syrian infantry divisions, each consisting of one infantry brigade, one mechanized brigade and one armored brigade. Each division had 180 tanks in its composition. The second echelon contained the 1st and 3rd Armored Divisions (460 T-62 and T-55 tanks) and several separate armored brigades. In total, about 1300 Syrian tanks. The task of the infantry divisions was to break through the Israeli defense and destroy the tanks, then the armored divisions could occupy the Golan before the Israeli reserve units arrived. Upon reaching this, the Jordan River and the Galilee Hills would have been open to the Syrian army. By the start of fighting on October 6, the Israelis had two armored brigades with 177 Centurion tanks and one infantry brigade supported by 11 self-propelled artillery batteries in the Golan defense. They were opposed by three Syrian infantry divisions, each consisting of one infantry brigade, one mechanized brigade and one armored brigade. Each division had 180 tanks. In the second echelon were the 1st and 3rd armored divisions (460 T-62 and T-55 tanks) and several separate armored brigades. In total, about 1300 Syrian tanks were concentrated on the plateau. The task of the infantry divisions was to break through the Israeli defense and destroy the tanks, then the armored divisions could occupy the Golan before the Israeli reserve units arrived. Upon reaching this, the Jordan River and the hills of Galilee would lie open to the Syrian army.
                        The attack began on Saturday, October 6 at 13.50 with air strikes and intensive artillery shelling of Israeli artillery positions, tanks and fortified points. Tactical surprise was complete (The attack on the Golan was not a surprise for the Israelis, rather the force of the blow was a surprise - approx. Transl.). Following the creeping fire roll through a curtain of dust, Syrian divisions advanced in three main directions north and south of Cuneitra. Moving in two columns on either side of the road, Syrian tanks broke through the front, bypassing the strongholds of the infantry. Ahead were special vehicles - with mine trawls and spreaders.
                        All day on October 7, a battle raged on the Golan Heights. All reserve units were brought into battle in the south of the Golan upon arrival, where the greatest risk of a breakthrough remained.
                        At dawn the Syrians attacked again. Throughout Monday, the brigade repelled attacks by the 7th Infantry Division, 3rd Armored Division, and parts of Assad's Republican Guard armed with T-62s. By evening, Ben-Gal and his men were close to exhaustion. They didn't sleep a wink for 31 hours and fought for 44 hours without even having time to eat. The brigade lost approximately 50 people killed and many more wounded, almost all from artillery fire. That night, using their advantage in night combat equipment, the Syrians launched another attack on the Booster. The Israeli defense held on firmly.
                        Nearly 200 damaged Syrian combat vehicles remained between Mount Hermonite and Hill "Booster", the Israelis called this place "Valley of Tears"

                        http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/Modern/Centurion/txt1/?page=6
                        Link for Kars, a lot of interesting
                      50. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 5 November 2012 15: 50
                        0
                        The guys dragged us to the museum of military equipment Sherman, there will be an opportunity to shoot a reportage, then lay it out.
                      51. vorobey
                        vorobey 2 November 2012 14: 28
                        +3
                        aksakal do not tear your heart. Andrew is quite sane, he has one sore point touching which it can easily be pissed off. If you want to check, look.

                        In terms of its qualitatively combat parameters, even the modernized T72B left the T80UD behind and surpasses the T84.

                        Now watch the reaction.

                        It's like waving a red rag.

                        Andryukha do not start. I'm just joking amicably. The main thing is that now you and your elder began to understand each other.
                      52. Kars
                        Kars 2 November 2012 14: 37
                        +2
                        Quote: vorobey
                        even the upgraded T72B left its T80UD behind its qualitatively combat parameters and surpasses the T84

                        As they say, three years have not passed)))) Pakistan has been using 84 for 15 years.
                        I’m calm towards the slingshot, I’m sorry about the White Eagle that I don’t hear anything.
                        Quote: vorobey
                        you now began to understand each other with aksakal

                        Well, I don’t know, it’s with a person who considers a German 120 mm rifled
                      53. CRONOS
                        CRONOS 2 November 2012 16: 30
                        0
                        Due to the small volume and fast change of news, the dispute cannot be completed in any way

                        Believe and will fail. Each will remain with his own opinion and point of view on the same thing. wink
                      54. CRONOS
                        CRONOS 2 November 2012 16: 27
                        0
                        Which tank model do you consider to be exemplary today? I understand you correctly, are you a former tanker?
                      55. Kars
                        Kars 2 November 2012 16: 36
                        0
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        I understand you correctly, are you a former tanker?

                        I loved the tanker soldier but I have a tank helmet.

                        Exemplary now there.
                        In my personal rating (without taking into account the number of produced, strategies and tactics of troops, theaters of operations) serial (i.e. without T-90MS, BM Oplot) MBT is Challenger 2
                      56. vorobey
                        vorobey 2 November 2012 16: 44
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        Challenger 2


                        Che and does not even start? so let it not start whole. tongue
                      57. CRONOS
                        CRONOS 2 November 2012 16: 47
                        +3
                        I loved the tanker but I have a tank helmet.

                        Generally a theorist. That’s what they would say. smile
                        Challenger 2

                        And why is he? Why not say Leo-2A7 + or Merkava-4M?
                        And yes, quantity is quality as well as parameter. In the Second World War, the Germans could not afford to rivet many Panthers, while the thirty-four required much less man-hours for their creation. Roughly speaking, while the Germans (British) were building one tiger / panther (Challenger 2), the Union (RF) managed to rivet 2-3 T-34 (T-90), and 2-3 T-34 (T-90), already easily dismantled one tiger \ panther (Challenger 2).
                      58. Kars
                        Kars 2 November 2012 17: 36
                        0
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        Generally a theorist. That’s what they would say

                        Did I say somewhere that I am a tankman? And most likely not a theoretician, but ENTUZIAST.
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        And why is he?

                        And why not?
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        And yes, quantity is quality as well as parameter.

                        Clearly wrote ---
                        Quote: Kars
                        excluding the number of produced, strategies and tactics of troops, theaters of operations

                        Quote: vorobey
                        Che and does not even start?

                        Better to let it stand than to hang))))))))
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        not Leo-2A7 +

                        Are they already serial?
                      59. CRONOS
                        CRONOS 2 November 2012 23: 14
                        0
                        Did I say somewhere that I am a tankman? And most likely not a theoretician, but ENTUZIAST.

                        Have you served in the army?
                        -Nope! But I have a double-barreled shotgun and injury ... soldier
                        But seriously, when I asked about your military past, I thought that you had encountered one or another technique in the service and you did not know about it by hearsay.
                        And why not?

                        Kars, with all due respect, but what is the Jewish habit of answering a question with a question? Indeed! I can read Pedevikia too, but I wanted to see your reasoned opinion about why Challenger 2, because you surprised me with your palm among the tanks. what It seems that our Jewish friends have already convinced us and backed up with evidence that Merkava-4M is a panacea in the tank world. bully And then HOP ... Challenger 2 ...
                        Clearly wrote ---

                        Damn, but it’s not clear to me what you wanted to say. I don’t keep up with the course and process of your logic ... sad
                        Are they already serial?

                        http://lenta.ru/articles/2012/06/20/waffen/ - если верить Ленте, то скоро станут вполне себе серийными, с учётом ничтожного количества произведённых Челенджеров-2. То что спор в немецком концерне - не беда, "Бабло победит зло". fellow
                        So why did you like the British tank so much? Or is it love from the category "I love Ivan because the little head is curly"? laughing
                      60. Kars
                        Kars 2 November 2012 23: 34
                        +1
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        service equipment and you know about it not by hearsay.

                        Hyacinth B will suit you? Just consider that I am from Ukraine.
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        but what is the Jewish habit of answering a question with a question?

                        So why do you become like me answering the same.

                        Quote: CRONOS
                        but I wanted to see your reasoned opinion, why Challenger 2

                        To begin with, do you really want anything. Secondly, do I need it? Thirdly, go over the topics of armored vehicles ---- there I was already responsible for my vision of the MBT rating.
                        About Merkava, will you defend her? Ready? And what is 4M?
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        I do not keep up with the progress and process of your logic
                        Ask again what can you do.
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        if you believe the tape, they will soon become quite

                        as soon as they become, we’ll start right away. Something that I don’t believe is that even a SA will be able to contain two types of MBT, while not cheap to operate.
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        So still, why did you like the British tank so much?

                        Guns, armor protection, crew working conditions, placement and storage of ammunition.
                        Very decent SLA. One of the few - you need a large-caliber anti-aircraft machine gun.

                        Okay, give a link to one episode
                        http://topwar.ru/16952-vsya-lozh-tankovyh-reytingov-chast-i.html
                      61. CRONOS
                        CRONOS 3 November 2012 01: 00
                        +1
                        Hyacinth B will suit you? Just consider that I am from Ukraine.

                        We are still talking about tanks.
                        So why do you become like me answering the same.

                        Are you again laughing That was my answer, not a question to a question.
                        For starters, do you really want anything. Secondly, do I need it?

                        Just do not need harshness. If it is difficult to answer or do not consider it necessary, then they would immediately say so. I counted on a discus with you.
                        About Merkava, will you defend her? Ready? And what is 4M?

                        No, I will not defend Merkava, because for this there is the Army of Defense and Defense of Merkava. lol Aron Zawi, Pimpled, Professor, where are you when you need him so much? Merkava offended! laughing
                        Letter M is a modification with the serial KAZ Trophy.
                        as soon as they become, we’ll start right away. Something that I don’t believe is that even a SA will be able to contain two types of MBT, while not cheap to operate.

                        Leo-2a7 + is just a cosmetic upgrade to A6 and nothing more. If you are so confused by its serial number, then let's replace it in the discussion with A6. Has this modification been released enough by your standards? About 400 tanks in almost two decades, I will probably keep silent tactfully ... lol
                        Remind me what the Saudis now have in service with the tank and in what quantity? And do not forget that the Saudis are the second in the world in terms of the percentage of defense spending after the United States
                        Guns, armor protection, crew working conditions, placement and storage of ammunition.

                        So you want to say that Challenger 2 is superior in these key parameters to German Leo-2 and Jewish Merkava-4? what
                        In the picture, you forgot to note the lower armor plate - the Khhilesov heel in the frontal projection of Challenger 2. God forbid, he stood on a hill during the shelling.
                      62. Kars
                        Kars 3 November 2012 01: 27
                        0
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        We are still talking about tanks.

                        ???? I immediately said that it’s not a tanker, the artilleryman does not suit you))))))
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        That was my answer, not a question to a question.

                        The answer does not end with a question mark usually.
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        I counted on a discus with you.

                        You count on the discussion, but you don’t want to do anything for it. You can’t even tell which tank you prefer.
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        Letter M is a modification with the serial KAZ Trophy

                        What did you get? And what if they put Siman 3 Bet Baz dor Dalet Trophy on Merkava?
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        Leo-2a7 + is just a cosmetic upgrade to A6 and nothing more

                        It seems to you.

                        Quote: CRONOS
                        what is the Saudi’s tank now in service and in what quantity

                        400 abrams.
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        So you want to say that Challenger 2 is superior in these key parameters to German Leo-2 and Jewish Merkava-4?

                        Yes

                        Quote: CRONOS
                        Khhilesov heel in the frontal projection of Challenger 2

                        Quote: CRONOS
                        God forbid him to stand on a hill during the shelling.

                        And to whom, God forbid?
                      63. aksakal
                        aksakal 2 November 2012 16: 46
                        0
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        Which tank model do you consider to be exemplary today? I understand you correctly, are you a former tanker?
                        - Unfortunately, not a tanker. He served in the ZRV, S-200, after my demobilization, my honor immediately transferred to the S-300.
                        But by training a mechanical engineer. Therefore, I don’t particularly understand tanks, a technique such that they don’t even post details and technical details on the Internet, but education just allows me to conduct a general assessment of the technique and accordingly approximately know the pros and cons of a tank.
                        But Kars is probably a tanker, he knows the nuances that are inaccessible to me, but somehow without technical details, and even more so calculations, like, "you're wrong, shut up, I'm right! Caterpillar and only caterpillar" and that's it, no arguments, let alone numbers and calculations. I suppose that Kars has an exemplary one - some recent modifications of the T-80 tank - he never said that this is a bad tank. But Kars is furious
                      64. Kars
                        Kars 2 November 2012 17: 43
                        +1
                        Quote: aksakal
                        I assume that Kars is exemplary - some recent modifications

                        Strange, my comment on the time before this)))))
                        And someone after this requires some kind of numbers and calculations?
                        Quote: aksakal
                        caterpillar and only caterpillar

                        well, remembering your arguments, it’s all the same for me to get fun ---- you’re probably smarter than all the Jews who still make tanks with tracks, even though it’s so hard to pull them on, and where only Jewish mothers look when they are monitored with trucks)))))
                  3. Kars
                    Kars 2 November 2012 13: 50
                    0
                    Quote: aksakal
                    type, yes, it is advisable to bring to the front line
                    1. vorobey
                      vorobey 2 November 2012 14: 05
                      +4
                      Quote: Kars
                      about wheeled tank

                      Quote: Kars
                      He also believes that I consider Abrams the best tank.


                      Well, I'm surprised at you.

                      Let's reason logically. We open any explanatory dictionary and read

                      Tank
                      fully-armored tracked combat vehicle, fully armored, with weapons to engage various targets on the battlefield. Combat properties of T .: firepower, armor protection, high mobility, the ability to make marches over long distances, to overcome obstacles and barriers. The main structural elements of T .: armored hull

                      TANK (English tank - tank, tank) - tracked combat vehicle, fully armored, with art. and machine gun armament. T.'s first projects in the world were proposed by Ing. VD Mendeleev in 1911. In 1915 AA Porokhovshchikov built and tested the All-terrain vehicle. Real models of T. were built in England (Mark-1) and were first used on 15 Sept. 1916 on the river. Somme. In 1916, the French appeared. T. "Renault", "Schneider", "Saint-Samon", in 1918 - German A-7-U and A-7-U I. In Russia, before the Revolution, their own T. was not produced.


                      TANK

                      TANK, tank, m. 1. Tracked armored vehicle, armed with guns and machine guns, capable of moving over rough terrain without roads. 2. A high metal tank with a cooling mixture for ice cars, for refrigerators (tech.).

                      Etc. So the tank is still a tracked combat vehicle. Everything else on wheels is armored cars.

                      Abrams. Andrei, I’ll tell you straight, I didn’t notice that you were blocking it.
                      1. aksakal
                        aksakal 2 November 2012 15: 13
                        +1
                        Quote: vorobey
                        Abrams. Andrei, I’ll tell you straight, I didn’t notice that you were blocking it.
                        - Sparrow, it happened there. The first one he started, I don’t remember, with a large number of skulls on uniform, like the T-90 sucks. And on Abarms, the GTD is already there. Kars picked up, as I understand from your post -)))), because the T-80 also has a gas turbine engine. The dispute continues until now, sometimes with the transition to personalities on the part of Kars, and therefore in that dispute it looked like Kars was standing behind Abramych, well, he then proved specifically for Abramych - he himself will confirm:
                        Quote: Kars
                        But you don’t need to lie when you are trying to intercede, first say that the specific power of the T-90 is equal to or even higher than that of Abrams, and then when you were told on your fingers that Abrams had more, they started to dodge the loss of power at the checkpoint, even though the Soviet checkpoint what is wonderful in your words for some reason changes to the T-90MS for a similar bourgeois one.

                        and then - when was I for Abramych a mountain? Was it like that?
                        Quote: vorobey
                        TANKTANK, tank, m. 1. Tracked armored vehicle, armed with guns and machine guns, capable of moving over rough terrain without roads. 2. A high metal tank with a cooling mixture for ice cars, for refrigerators (tech.). Etc. So the tank is still a tracked combat vehicle. Everything else on wheels is armored cars.

                        - Well, once such a definition of a tank, I agree. And I repeat again - at that time I was not standing behind a wheeled tank, but put forward the thesis that a wheel can and should be modified in such a way as to realize its traditional advantages, and add to it the advantages in cross-country ability of other movers. Kars took it as a pure wheeled tank and enthusiastically proves to me that only a caterpillar and nothing more. There are no flaws in the caterpillars and that's it. A caterpillar and only a caterpillar!
                        I can’t find any time to answer his last post. In the purely constructive sense, the difference between caterpillars and wheels is not at all as big as we are here with Lomam’s spears, since Kars makes them. then I break -))))
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 2 November 2012 15: 34
                        +1
                        Quote: aksakal
                        Sparrow, it happened there.

                        Well why bother, if Sparrow is interested here is the link
                        http://topwar.ru/19766-na-prostorah-evrazii-vlastvuet-t-90.html#comment-id-63925
                        4
                        Although I don’t even amuse myself with the hope that from the whole discussion you learned that the claimed power of Abrams is given after the reduction gear.
                        Quote: aksakal
                        and then - when was I for Abramych a mountain? Was it like that?

                        Is the statement of facts and an indication of errors your bias? That's why I say the Shockheads are the first enemies to their own people. Then they will wash away with bloody snot, it will be too late.
                      3. vorobey
                        vorobey 2 November 2012 15: 37
                        +2
                        Quote: aksakal
                        Well, since Kars has them. then I break


                        Guys here you have fun, already enviable.
                      4. aksakal
                        aksakal 2 November 2012 15: 40
                        +2
                        Quote: vorobey
                        Guys here you have fun, already enviable.

                        - what if truth is born?
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 12: 49
                        0
                        Quote: aksakal
                        And on Abarms, the GTD is already there. Kars picked up, as I understand from your post -)))), because the T-80 also has a gas turbine engine

                        I don’t remember about AZ))))))))))) but I will throw a tablet.
            2. vorobey
              vorobey 2 November 2012 11: 55
              +2
              Oh, mountains, I have not seen for a long time.
              Quote: gor
              I would advise not only to enter into a direct collision, but also be measured by members

              Who about what and you again about pussy.



              Quote: gor
              tacheki made their way and from 105 mm guns of the first modifications

              So the tachos were different - Yugoslav where the armor was worse, the old modifications T54 and T62 were inferior in reservation.

              Quote: gor
              the Americans destroyed the enemy’s equipment by all available means and in this honor and praise


              Here I agree.

              Quote: gor
              and do not tell stories.


              Again, I agree, as the second Iraq showed the whole essence of the indiscretion of the Abrams.
            3. aksakal
              aksakal 2 November 2012 11: 58
              +2
              Quote: gor
              but even in a direct collision, the t-72 loses to the abrams and there is no need to tell stories. the carts made their way out of the 105 mm guns of the first modifications

              - about whether the T-72 lost the first modifications of Abramych - I really doubt us, dear. In the same way, Abramychs burned and made their way in the same way. And from competitions and mestizos burned like that. that amers long sulked at the Tula. What to argue again, not long left, we’ll measure ourselves and see. Elections in the States will be held the other day, hostilities should begin, if the Russians do not collapse and support Assad, then they will see the duel between the T-90s, which, I hope, the Russians will nevertheless supply Assad with your vaunted Abramits.
              But test combat, alas, is already needed by the Russians. It was the fighting that allowed Russian designers and military leaders to detect and correct mistakes in time, such as a complete rejection of guns in favor of missiles, a refusal to continue developing dynamic protection for tanks, and a refusal to develop UAVs. In the first two cases, the errors helped to identify the Arab-Israeli wars and the war in Vietnam, in the latter case, without fighting, the error was discovered very late, when the cessation was already overwhelming. Now we are trying to catch up and another question is, are we catching up?
              So shut up those who say, "if you want war, go and fight yourself!" weapons can be tested only in actual combat operations, because they are created for this. The theory is a weak helper here, alas. So it's time to fight from the heart, preferably in foreign territories and with someone else's (only partly) hands.
        2. Denzel13
          Denzel13 2 November 2012 12: 38
          +7
          TANKS IN THE WAR BETWEEN SYRIA AND ISRAEL 1982
          During this conflict, the Soviet T-72 and Israeli Merkavs MK were baptized for the first time. 1. At that time, the Western media began to “trumpet” the clear advantage of Western armored vehicles over Soviet ones. But was it really so? In 1982, one of the programs of the West German ZDF channel showed destroyed tanks, but not only the Syrian T-72, but mostly Israeli M60A1 American-made tanks. These vehicles had 3-6 holes each (a peculiarity of the shooting of Arab tankers - the fire is fired until the target is engulfed in flames, although after two hits the enemy tank was completely incapacitated). Fragments of the allegedly destroyed T-72s were demonstrated in close-up, however, for some reason, the operators did not show a single hole, as in the case of the M60A1.
          Everything became clear when they gave the general plan of one of the damaged Syrian T-72s. It turned out that the one and only T-72 that remained on the battlefield, was destroyed all the time, destroyed by the Syrians themselves, so that the enemy would not get it. The specialist could determine this by a number of signs: open and put on the hatch covers of the hatches of the driver and other crew members, external fuel tanks removed (and not torn off by enemy explosives or shells), dismantled coaxial and anti-aircraft machine guns PKT and NSVT, prepared for towing cables for towing a machine. An inexperienced viewer, looking at this shoot, could really believe in the "mountains of damaged T-72" of the Syrian army.
          Those who studied at the Academy of Armored Forces, probably saw in one of the classes of the tank department fired from the NATO 105-mm cannon of the hull and turret of the T-72 tank. Not a single hole in the frontal projections was there. But it was precisely this weapon that stood on the M60A1, on the MK Merkava. 1 and later on the Abrams of earlier models.
          Of course, comparing the T-72, even of the 1975 model year (it was they who prevailed at that time in the Syrian army), with the M60A1 are not entirely correct. The T-55s available to the Syrians also cope with American tanks in battle. But in the war in the summer of 1982, the Israelis put on the battlefield and a more serious opponent - the Merkava tank Mk. 1. But in those cases when they met with the T-72, Soviet equipment also won. So, for example, according to a participant in those events, Syrian army officer Mazin Fauri, in front of his eyes the T-72 with one high-explosive fragmentation projectile (armor-piercing, submunition and cumulative at that moment had already ended) tore off the tower from the Israeli Merkava slipper. Another Syrian tanker, who studied at our armored academy, also confirmed the high survivability of the T-72 tank on the battlefield: after the battle ended, he saw only marks from the armor-piercing-ammunition shells of the Israelis on his armor, and kissed the armor his car, like a beloved woman. This is consistent with the above results of shelling the T-72 tank from a 72-mm gun. None of the types of shells used by her at that time pierced the T-105's frontal armor.
          1. Aaron Zawi
            Aaron Zawi 3 November 2012 00: 12
            +3
            Denzel13 Merkava never met with the T-72. Units from Merkava moved to Beirut and collided with the Third Armored Division, which were the T-55 and T-62. The T-72 tanks were in service with the First Syrian Tank Division, which was brought into battle the day before the end of the battles in the 82 and practically did not have time to fight. The only more or less serious losses they suffered from an ambush of an ATGM company of an airborne brigade. According to various sources, then 7-9 cars were hit.
            As for shells, ask why, after firing shells captured by the Syrians on our tanks at the Sultan-Yakub, it was decided to urgently increase the armor of the T-72. Well, there is so much information on the Internet. Why write nonsense?
        3. Denzel13
          Denzel13 2 November 2012 12: 55
          +6
          "STORM IN THE DESERT", 1990-1991
          During the "Desert Storm" there was a massive clash on the battlefield of American and Soviet tanks. Undoubtedly, the Americans destroyed a large number of tanks of the Iraqi army. However, pay attention to some details.
          American tankers had an overwhelming advantage in detecting the enemy thanks to the use of thermal imagers in military vehicles, which made it possible to detect Iraqi tanks at night, in sandstorms and smoke from burning oil wells at distances of over 3 km. From these ranges, the Americans opened fire.
          The latest “Abrams” with 120 mm cannons went into battle. Older "Abrams" with 105-mm guns, the Americans tried not to throw on the T-72. On average, an average of 5 to 40 armor-piercing and sub-caliber shells were spent on one destroyed Iraqi tank. In total, 20 such shells were spent by the Americans. However, not all Iraqi tanks were destroyed in direct battle with American tank units. The most significant part of them was destroyed from the air or thrown and blown up by their own crews during the retreat due to lack of fuel. When there was not enough time to destroy the tank, crews using improvised means destroyed optics, electrical wiring and left.
          Such a high consumption of ammunition for each wrecked Iraqi tank, with a sufficiently high qualification of American crews, can be explained by only one. The Americans were afraid to come close to the 125-mm guns of the T-72 and, taking advantage of the range of detection of targets with the help of thermal imagers, opened fire to kill from extreme distances.
          It was hard for Iraqi tankers to fight the latest American tanks, since all they had was armored-piercing-dodge-bombs of the 9s developed from the armament of the Soviet Army back in 1960. Nevertheless, the Iraqis sometimes succeeded with these shells to hit American tanks in battle, though the American command attributed all the losses of the Abrams to the results of the “friendly fire”.
          According to the recollections of the participants in those battles, the TOW-72 anti-tank missile systems from distances of more than 2 m were most often used to destroy the Iraqi T-3000s because of fear of return fire. However, to counter the ATGMs of some Iraqi tanks, jamming directors of Chinese manufacture were installed. The firing of ATGM missiles at such vehicles was not successful, therefore, for the destruction of one such T-72, the Americans allocated at least three M1A1 tanks with the support of two or three M2 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles. At the same time, the Americans tried to get around Iraqi tanks from the flanks and rear (according to Western sources - 75% of all hits fell on their sides and stern).
          1. Blat
            Blat 2 November 2012 15: 35
            -1
            read the comments and because of which the boron cheese flared up. here is written about thermal imagers and other bells and whistles. I have such a question, but is it not an advantage anymore? and I don’t remember where, but Kars himself somewhere spoke about the frontal armor of the abrams and so on -90 and about ammunition. One more question. Having better frontal armor, better detection systems and more powerful ammunition, who in this case will have the advantage?
            and such a high amount of ammunition can be explained only by the use of thunderbolts and Apaches
            1. Kars
              Kars 2 November 2012 15: 44
              +4
              Quote: blat
              armor abrams and t-90

              Here, in general, we are talking about T-72 export modifications.
              Quote: blat
              and such a high amount of ammunition

              Quote: Denzel13
              5 to 40 armor-piercing shells. In total, 20 of these shells were spent by the Americans.

              Here it’s specifically about 120 mm of feathered calipers, even though I didn’t get used to confirming this figure.
              Apaches and Thunderbolts shot far more than 20 thousand, which is less than 20 A-10 ammunition.
              But there are no real photos with the control of their work on tanks, neither for 91 nor for 2003, and I would have cured their work from undermining the tank abandoned by the crews, or from the work of Helfire.
              1. bask
                bask 2 November 2012 16: 04
                +2
                Modification T72 and T80 should relate primarily in the shift
                on T90 MS type modules. Then T90 level will be reached. With the modernization of the optical fiber channel, the thermal imager and the built-in and DZ protection .. Yes, and stop thinking on the scales of World War III. Tanks will be used only in the North Caucasus in the coming years. And the main focus is protection against IEDs and RPGs ......
              2. Denzel13
                Denzel13 2 November 2012 17: 36
                +3
                Kars, in 1991 the service had data on very interesting clashes, including tanks in Iraq, but scarce. Only who at that time knew that it would be interesting to delve into this later, and secrecy would have prevented them from getting hold of documents. Then everyone was busy looking for an answer to the question why this ..... (here someone who has some kind of fantasy) Gorbachev is calving about sending our division (and not only) to Iraq. Although on this occasion were in readiness.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 2 November 2012 17: 51
                  +1
                  Quote: Denzel13
                  in 1991, the service had data on very interesting clashes

                  It is a pity that they are not read.
                  1. Denzel13
                    Denzel13 2 November 2012 18: 01
                    0
                    This is yes, very sorry.
                2. CRONOS
                  CRONOS 2 November 2012 23: 48
                  0
                  Then everyone was busy finding an answer to the question why this one ..... (here someone who has some kind of fantasy) Gorbachev is calving about sending our division (and not only) to Iraq.

                  In what, but I would be looking for the answer why this ..... (here someone who has some kind of fantasy) Gorbachev betrayed his country for the green UWB rugs and why he and his family are still alive ... recourse
              3. Blat
                Blat 3 November 2012 21: 02
                +1
                and I said that I myself said that the frontal armor of Abrams is stronger than on the T-90. It is quite logical that on the T-72 the armor is weaker than on the T-90
                1. Kars
                  Kars 3 November 2012 21: 32
                  0
                  Quote: blat
                  Abrams’s frontal armor is stronger than on the t-90

                  This is not known by you or me.
                  Have you seen the broken forehead of the T-90 tower with dynamic protection? I don’t. We can only assess the opinions of experts and those who call themselves such.

                  Quote: blat
                  t-72 armor is weaker

                  Do not forget that there were export modifications in Iraq.


                  here is a tablet from a source that I completely trust.
                  http://btvt.narod.ru/4/4.html
                  1. bask
                    bask 3 November 2012 21: 45
                    0
                    Kars The table is detailed. But the question is? Armor penetration of what, the cortus of the tank? On all T72 tanks of any modifications there are cast, made of homogeneous armor turrets-combat modules. The BK is in the combat module. The tower is breaking through with one shot from a monoblock RPG 7. With the subsequent detonation of the VK .. So these numbers are correct, only for the Kortus tanks .. T 72 ....
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 3 November 2012 21: 52
                      0
                      Quote: bask
                      The armor penetration of what, a tank cortus?

                      BPS penetration at a distance of 2000 m at an angle of 60 degrees from normal (wrodeba) for the abrams the very first model of its projectile is patriotically given
                      Quote: bask
                      T72 tanks of any modifications are cast, made of homogeneous turret armor

                      no
                      Quote: bask
                      The tower breaks through with one shot from a monoblock RPG 7. With subsequent detonation of the VK

                      right so every time a detonation? from breaking through a tower? is worth looking at the device of the tank. chance 1 to 50
                      1. bask
                        bask 3 November 2012 22: 09
                        0
                        And in what modifications is the turret-fighting module on the T72 not cast? Welded from rolled armored steel ???? Tanks ,, Abrams ,,,, Challenger 2,, Leopard 2,, That and are strong. That they have combat modules a cut above they are protected and equipped than our tanks. The exception is the T90 MS ..... On western tanks ... + fire extinguishing system and the use of modern gunpowders that do not cause detonation of BC ...., anti-detonating fuel tanks, etc. ... The main thing in the tank is the combat module ...
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 3 November 2012 22: 27
                        0
                        Quote: bask
                        And in what modifications is the tower-combat module on the T72 not cast? Welded from rolled armored steel ????

                        Learn mate part
                        Quote: bask
                        gunpowder non-knocking BC

                        They are not burning?
                        Quote: bask
                        ... the main thing in the tank is the combat module ...

                        But it is not in any tank yet.
                        Quote: bask
                        anti-knock fuel tanks

                        pumping tanks with inert gases or exhaust (I read somewhere, now I can’t confirm it) has been used for a long time. But this does not stop the Abrams from burning.
                        Quote: bask
                        tower combat module

                        CEP, what is it? Where do they write about this?
                      3. bask
                        bask 3 November 2012 23: 15
                        0
                        What they write about. You do not agree that. tank tower is the combat module. ??? We will call towers. Due to the towers, Western tanks have superiority over Russian + ammunition for tank guns. The barrels themselves do not play a big role. The main high-quality steel and metalworking barrels .....
                      4. igor67
                        igor67 3 November 2012 23: 25
                        0
                        Kars,
                        [media = http: //m.youtube.com/#/watch? feature = related & v = Hr4qBnQhyEQ]. An interesting film, the first time I saw the tests of the T72 shooting in my opinion on Sherman, three times I tried to stop and consider the type of tank
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 21: 05
                        0
                        Quote: igor67
                        [media = http: //m.youtube.com/#/watch? feature = related & v = Hr4qBnQhyEQ


                        unfortunately something is wrong
                      6. igor67
                        igor67 5 November 2012 21: 12
                        0
                        Kars,
                        Yes, it’s strange, I’ll try to find some sort of balcony.
                      7. bask
                        bask 5 November 2012 16: 28
                        0
                        Kars On all modifications of the T72 tower cast ..... T90 C welded (2002), T90-A (2004) welded ...
                      8. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 17: 43
                        +1
                        Quote: bask
                        Kars On all modifications of the T72 tower cast ..... T90 C welded (2002), T90-A (2004) welded ...

                        Quote: bask
                        On all T72 tanks of any modifications are, cast, from homogeneous armor turrets-combat modules

                        Once again I repeat that your BOTH phrases are not true, and then you think about what.
                        Quote: bask
                        You do not agree that. tank tower is the combat module. ???

                        I don’t disagree, there are clear definitions and there is no need to invent my own.
                        Quote: bask
                        .Main quality steel and metalworking trunks .....

                        For example, this is important for barrel life, but it is not a particular factor — trunks are easily replaceable, and in combat conditions it’s not realistic to shoot 250-400 BPS (OFS have less impact on the barrel).
                        Quote: bask
                        Due to the towers, Western tanks have superiority over Russian

                        Can you prove this reasonably? Large frontal projection, losing ballistic profile, large combat projection? Although I personally do not see any special problems in this, but to speak of superiority, I need to argue.
                      9. bask
                        bask 5 November 2012 23: 10
                        0
                        Kars Once again, on all modifications of the T72 there are cast towers. T73 1973 cast tower. 2 T72 cast tower with sand rods. 3 T72 M 1982 similarly. 4 T72B1984 year cast tower with filler on reflective sheets. 5.T72BM 1989 cast tower on reflective sheets .6 T 72 B 2 ,, Slingshot ,,, 2006: cast tower. Now it’s well-timed, disprove it. If I’m wrong. Translate the facts, the organization .... If you can hi
                      10. Kars
                        Kars 5 November 2012 23: 20
                        0
                        Well, finally, on the third attempt, I decided to learn the materiel, was it impossible right away?

                        Quote: bask
                        1973 year cast tower

                        Quote: bask
                        with sand rods

                        Quote: bask
                        with filler on reflective sheets


                        though not all
                        Quote: bask
                        T72 of any modifications are, cast, of homogeneous armor towers

                        Yes? And the towers of different modifications differ in security? In the course angles that are taken into account when assessing armor protection.
                        I hope you understand your mistakes.
                      11. Kars
                        Kars 6 November 2012 23: 02
                        0
                        Syria, the use of tanks.

            2. vorobey
              vorobey 2 November 2012 16: 01
              +3
              Blat. I have one question, can you geographically describe the theater of operations where the Abrams and T72 "collided" so far? These are mainly weakly intersected and completely open areas with a long line of sight.

              We will not compare potentials.

              But having knocked out tanks and finding themselves in a city where visibility and observation conditions are limited, the Abrams turned out to be the same blind kittens as Teshki in Grozny and just as well didn’t burn sour.

              What is it for? to the fact that the terrain in many ways can level even the most superb surveillance and detection devices.
              1. CRONOS
                CRONOS 2 November 2012 17: 14
                0
                Another thing is that the Americans would not send their tanks to the city under the unpunished execution of RPGs.
                1. Denzel13
                  Denzel13 2 November 2012 18: 05
                  +1
                  Where did you get this Cronos conviction? It was in urban conditions that they lost the most tanks in 2003, and it was from the RPG-7 with grenades that were not very "fresh" for the year of development.
                  1. vorobey
                    vorobey 2 November 2012 20: 22
                    +1
                    Denzel13,
                    Hi landing Sanya. Well, maybe the lad has other data that you immediately on the table.
                  2. CRONOS
                    CRONOS 2 November 2012 23: 31
                    +1
                    Are we taking away the assault or the already Paritzan resistance of the Irkans, which by definition imply sudden actions and large losses of coalition forces? And yes, Baghdad is predominantly one-two-story, while Grozny is a 5–9 story city. Due to restrictions on vertical aiming angles, it is already very difficult for a tank to dislodge the spirit in the middle of a city that is seated on a five-story building than to do the same with a one-story house.
                    And yes, the loss of the coalition in the tanks for the entire time they were in Iraq does not compare with our losses in Grozny. Unfortunately, but it is so ... sad
                    1. Blat
                      Blat 3 November 2012 19: 28
                      0
                      kronos is a country, but you weren’t blamed for such a bold vision))))))))))))))))) mess on the site))))))))))))) actually respect for an adequate vision of things
                2. saturn.mmm
                  saturn.mmm 4 November 2012 00: 38
                  +2
                  Quote: CRONOS
                  Another thing is that the Americans would not send their tanks to the city under the unpunished execution of RPGs.

                  You think badly about Americans. In the battles for Fallujah, they sent their tanks to be shot from RPGs.
                  on the video at 4.43 min is clearly visible
                  1. CRONOS
                    CRONOS 4 November 2012 01: 37
                    0
                    Kaknal "Zvezda" and the nettevesnaya "Military Secret" are our Discovery and BBS. In this program, they praise the Iraqis and their defense in the same way, as the Western media praised the Czechs during the storming of the terrible. I looked directly and did not get the word "Agitka" out of my head.
                    I quote a comment from YouTube:
                    1) first comment
                    Here it is the preparedness of the American troops. Partisans without any armored vehicles, practically not trained in military affairs, very long and beautifully kicked the ass of the Americans, well done.
                    2) and the answer to him
                    Well this is according to military secrets. This moronic show shows a lot of things - here you are a bigfoot from another planet, part-time pyramid builder, and chupocabra in the service of the FSB, reptilian founder of the pharaonic dynasty, German Nazis dissecting into UFOs 70 years after the war. The partisans lost more than 1500 killed and lost, US losses a little more than 100 people. And it was not soldiers who were ambushed, but 4 people from PMCs.

                    Another thing is that for the populism of resistance, it was beneficial for the people of Irk to "kill" amers. In turn, it was profitable for the amers to hide the true losses during the assault. On the whole, the losses cannot be compared with those of Grozny. We alone have tankers (!) Killed 41 people.
                    1. saturn.mmm
                      saturn.mmm 4 November 2012 18: 12
                      0
                      Quote: CRONOS
                      Another thing is that the Americans would not send their tanks to the city under the unpunished execution of RPGs.

                      CRONOS I generally tried to convey to you the fact that the Americans sent their tanks under the fire of RPGs.
                      I can insert an American film about Fallujah, it is really much longer, but the essence is the same, only not a word about the bombings. I did not assert anything about the reliability of "Military Secret".
                      1. CRONOS
                        CRONOS 4 November 2012 19: 19
                        +1
                        I admit that my wording is not accurate. I meant that the Americans would not have sent their tanks into the city the way our command did. In Fallujah, the amers lost only 11 tanks irrevocably. Although "recoverability" and concealment of losses are a completely different conversation.
                  2. Blat
                    Blat 4 November 2012 15: 12
                    0
                    I watched this video and the only thing that I understood was ordinary and at the same time not entirely professional propaganda. An ordinary mounted film in which materials are collected not only about the Falujah, but also about the events of the Falujah, which have nothing to do with it. .and I like the position of many here. There are no indestructible tanks. And Kars will not let me lie. The RPG-7 pierces the side and the T-72. But show me at least one abram with penetration of the frontal armor. But the T-72 with penetration of the frontal armor is
                    1. CRONOS
                      CRONOS 4 November 2012 15: 30
                      +1
                      In Fallujah, the Amers got a good thrash, but they obviously did not reach Stalingrag, as they did to China with cancer.
                      T-72nd T-72mu strife. The export modification had simple gamogenic armor, while the Soviet tanks were delivered with three-layer (first modifications) combined armor. So it is not surprising that the export crafts could have been punched in the forehead.
                    2. Kars
                      Kars 4 November 2012 15: 50
                      +1
                      Quote: blat
                      me at least one abrams with penetration of the frontal armor.

                      As ordered - Meyvrik. And now you bring the T-72 with penetration of the RPG-7 frontal armor
                      Quote: blat
                      sovratrpg-7 breaks the board and t-72

                      But before the Americans began to put DZ on the sides, and this began in principle recently, Abrams M1A1 had less chance of survival.

                    3. saturn.mmm
                      saturn.mmm 4 November 2012 18: 44
                      0
                      Quote: blat
                      I watched this video and the only thing I understood was ordinary and at the same time not quite professional propaganda

                      There is a purely American film about Falluja, but you will not see a single broken Abrams and a single bombardment of the same propaganda, but on the other hand, I repeat the video, I inserted it in evidence that the Americans were substituting their tanks for RPG fire.
                      Here is a link to an American video
                      http://voenhronika.ru/publ/intervenciya_usa_v_irake_i_afganistane/bitva_za_fallu
                      dzhu_poslednij_otschjot_ssha_2008_god/12-1-0-1572
                      Just think about why the Americans needed to turn the city into ruins, because these are big financial costs.
                      1. Blat
                        Blat 5 November 2012 09: 38
                        0
                        I watched every day in this video in Western media reports. That Abrams burns, it doesn’t necessarily burn on the street in the Fallujah. As a Marine finished off a wounded Iraqi for Fallujah, it certainly doesn’t have a relationship, etc. A purely American film is much closer to the truth than the video you posted
                      2. saturn.mmm
                        saturn.mmm 7 November 2012 00: 02
                        0
                        Quote: blat
                        I finished off the wounded Iraqi for Fallujah, it certainly doesn’t have a relationship, etc. A purely American film is much closer to the truth than the video you posted

                        Only the American film does not understand how the city collapsed.
              2. Blat
                Blat 3 November 2012 19: 26
                0
                Sparrow is one interesting moment. When you write, you consciously miss reality or from your carelessness. If you are inattentive, I can call you a dilatant. Remember the war in the Gulf, the first and second. All the clashes took place against the backdrop of blazing wells and there was such thick black smoke that no direct line of sight was out of the question. and even in a city, a tank equipped with a thermal imager has the advantage because hot air spreads in all directions, regardless of our desire. and when equipped with a system, you can safely beat your alien for your first target
                1. Kars
                  Kars 3 November 2012 20: 42
                  +1
                  Quote: blat
                  against the background of blazing wells and there was such thick black smoke

                  A couple of photos of Abrams against the background of burning wells do not characterize a theater of operations of several thousand square kilometers. Sand storms caused problems.
                  Quote: blat
                  and when equipped with a system, your alien can be fearless for his own to hit the first target

                  Which of the landlords was equipped with these systems? On hearing a characteristic moment in the career of the A-10 destroyed the English column with the destruction of two BMP Warrior
                  1. Blat
                    Blat 3 November 2012 21: 11
                    0
                    Kars, but wasn’t there smog? After the first campaign, the wells were put out for 2 years and could. But what about their stranger, the Nototists learned and equip the ground ones. But that’s not the point. The tank with the thermal imager is more informed and therefore has the advantage
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 3 November 2012 21: 23
                      0
                      Quote: blat
                      kars, but wasn’t there smog?

                      The one you write about wasn’t.
                      Quote: blat
                      already ground

                      Where when?
                      Quote: blat
                      a tank with a thermal imager is more informed and therefore has the advantage

                      But who argues with this? But as LOCALITY said (I’ll add weather conditions myself) it has a huge influence and it is necessary to distinguish, deserts, plains, hills, all this affects.
                      1. Blat
                        Blat 4 November 2012 01: 04
                        0
                        Well, I don’t know, find on YouTube about Kuwait’s burning wells and you’ll understand what I mean. Enter this into the Kuwait oil fields burning Gulf War 1991 search engine.
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 4 November 2012 18: 06
                        0
                        Why should I look for something if I know everything perfectly well, but you don’t. You can be advised to find Iraq, Kuwait on the map, see their geographical dimensions, oil fields and their location.
                        Maybe you will understand the difference between a theater of operations and a front sector.
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 4 November 2012 18: 13
                        +1
                        Quote: blat
                        you will understand what I mean



                        no, I don’t understand.
                        all clashes took place against the backdrop of flaming wells


                        And with EVERYTHING I am simply amazed.
            3. Denzel13
              Denzel13 2 November 2012 17: 27
              +2
              and such a high amount of ammunition can be explained only by the use of thunderbolts and Apaches

              What is the logic of Blat?

              It's about Abrams ammunition. And how does a large amount of spent tank ammunition correlate with the work of front-line aviation? It turns out that the aviation did not shoot well, so what did the tanks have to "refine"? Although it was aviation that was more effective.

              In 1991, the unit where I served received data that the most effective strikes were achieved by NATO aircraft in cases where there was ground targeting and laser illumination of targets by mobile reconnaissance groups.
          2. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 2 November 2012 22: 22
            +2
            Quote: Denzel13
            Those who studied at the Academy of Armored Forces, probably saw in one of the classes of the tank department fired from the NATO 105-mm cannon of the hull and turret of the T-72 tank. Not a single hole in the frontal projections was there.

            here is a video
            1. CRONOS
              CRONOS 3 November 2012 00: 02
              +1
              "The devil is in the details"
              And what modification is this T-72 and what did they shoot at all with it?
              1. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm 3 November 2012 20: 13
                0
                Quote: CRONOS
                And what modification is this T-72 and what did they shoot at all with it?

                Most likely, the T-72M1 like this modification was delivered to Syria, and it’s hard to answer for shooting it, but the action is happening in Syria, that's for sure.
                1. bask
                  bask 3 November 2012 20: 23
                  +1
                  saturn mmm Here's the reluctance to swear. But in Syria there are a lot of remot tank tanks What is a lot of work to make metal anti-cumulative screens ??? Yes, and DZ, something you can’t see ,,, Naked ,,, tanks to the city ... What's the news from Russia in the 90s did not follow ....
                  1. Kars
                    Kars 3 November 2012 20: 45
                    +2
                    Quote: bask
                    Yes, and DZ, something not to be seen ,,, Naked ,,, tanks in the city

                    It is full of tanks with a variety of hinged protection. With DZ, with sandbags, with tires.
                    1. bask
                      bask 3 November 2012 20: 58
                      +1
                      You're right Kars. With such a combat use of tanks, Syria threatens to be left without armored vehicles at all. And how many frames are online with BMPs 1 2 One shot from an RPG 7. All total destruction ((((torch)) without options. This is called anti-advertising of Russian armored vehicles. For future developments of armored vehicles in Russia. The built-in DZ should be on all models of armored vehicles)))) wired from fools))))) The combat module is either not inhabited, or with the removal of the VC in the rear of the tower.
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 3 November 2012 21: 43
                        +2
                        Quote: bask
                        You're right kars

                        In what?
                        Quote: bask
                        With such a combat use of tanks, Syria threatens to remain without armored vehicles at all

                        But how about a friend? This is a civil war and you can’t enter tanks after carpet bombing and
                        Quote: bask
                        BMP 1 2 One shot from an RPG 7. Total destruction

                        With Bradley or Warrior it will be the same.
                        Quote: bask
                        This is called the anti-advertising of Russian armored vehicles

                        Only for the layman. Those who are engaged in procurement look at it with understanding and anyway, that procurement will be solved financially.
                      2. bask
                        bask 3 November 2012 22: 19
                        +1
                        kars You are wrong 1. After the carpet bombing, tanks enter the city. Without this, losses in armored vehicles will increase significantly. 2 Anti-advertising in the media acts on public opinion, and therefore on specialists. ((((Arab-Israeli War (((A sharp decrease in purchases of Soviet weapons around the world. Recovered only in 80 years ..
                      3. Kars
                        Kars 3 November 2012 22: 24
                        +3
                        Quote: bask
                        After carpet bombing, tanks enter the city

                        In Syria, this is not the case, otherwise there would have been peacekeepers. The UN starts screaming at artillery fire heavy. Standard urban civil war fights.
                        Quote: bask
                        acts on public opinion, and therefore on specialists

                        They are worthless then to specialists.
                        Quote: bask
                        Arab-Israeli war (((A sharp decrease in purchases of Soviet weapons around the world

                        Do you make me laugh? The USSR mainly worked for the idea. As soon as some Papuan took the path of Marxism-Leninism, he received weapons.
                        Although if you have reliable data on the supply of weapons to the USSR - share it, I will be grateful.
                      4. bask
                        bask 3 November 2012 22: 38
                        +1
                        I agree for the idea, of course, they were armed, but far from new weapons. ((The war in Angola against South Africa is not a single T72 at the same time in Syria a whole division, etc. .....)))) Unfortunately, there are no tables, but I’ll operate on the data , expert on armored vehicles .Marokhovsky ,, Vesnik Mordovia ,, series of articles. ((((there is also an article on the comulative effect))))
                      5. Kars
                        Kars 3 November 2012 22: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: bask
                        but far from new weapons. ((The war in Angola against South Africa is not one T72 at the same time in Syria a whole division, etc. .....

                        What does it matter? It's not talking about the years - when the T-72 went to Syria in Angola, armistice negotiations began, but it doesn’t matter, here you can drink for a long time and to no avail.

                        But I repeat once again that the same Arab-Israeli wars undermined the type of Authority, did not reduce the demand for Soviet weapons, especially sold on favorable terms.
                      6. bask
                        bask 3 November 2012 23: 30
                        0
                        I agree on preferential terms or in, a duty, which no one and when will not return. Then I completely agree .. Read the literature on the war in Angola 1979-1992. The peak of the Yuarov offensive operations is just passing through 85-88 years. Yes, there is interesting data on the use of wheeled armored vehicles in South Africa. (Your argument with Aksakal. Which ,, is better, GC or wheeled move.,)))), And why South Africa did not use ,, Centurions ,, in battles in Angola ..
                      7. Kars
                        Kars 3 November 2012 23: 40
                        0
                        http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/krion109/album/190916/?

                        here there are interesting photos.

                        and in Cuba, too, there is no T-72, but they were in Finland.
                      8. CRONOS
                        CRONOS 4 November 2012 01: 43
                        +2
                        Wait, want to say that the USSR supplied the narrow-eyed, bearded and black-assed "brothers" with free weapons?
                      9. saturn.mmm
                        saturn.mmm 4 November 2012 19: 33
                        0
                        Quote: CRONOS
                        Wait, want to say that the USSR supplied the narrow-eyed, bearded and black-assed "brothers" with free weapons?

                        You already made laugh, not only free weapons, but also some military units of the USSR valiantly liberated African lands from imperialist invaders soldier .
                  2. saturn.mmm
                    saturn.mmm 4 November 2012 00: 59
                    0
                    Quote: bask
                    saturn mmm here reluctance to swear

                    You do not swear. The news from Russia in the 90s did not teach anyone but the Russians themselves, well, maybe even the Jews.
      2. Manager
        Manager 2 November 2012 23: 14
        +1
        Sparrow, buddy. I read it somewhere, but it smacks of jaundice.
        there is an example (I will find the video) Where the chief designer Abramsov (in the 90s) said that
        Amer’s armor is strong, but they only win by filling. If (for example) the EMF hammer on the battlefield, then from the battle in which 100 to 100 abrams and teshes participated, our teshes will leave almost without loss. This was said by chief designer Abrashek. But I don’t know whether to rejoice or cry. But I personally would put life sowing in the T90. I apologize for the grammar, I’m just being treated with vodka today, I’ve got a cold.
        1. CRONOS
          CRONOS 2 November 2012 23: 41
          0
          Abrams constructor saying this? what "one grandmother said ..." I won't believe it without references, please. Amers always praise and advertise their technology, no matter how shit it is, and the recognition of the inadequacy of their technology is a failure and deprivation of work at least. Yes, and we will not engage in hapko-slapdash. Abrams teshki will not be taken out in an equal head-to-head collision. Already something, and you can break the forehead of Abrams.
          Abrams was designed in the seventies, as a tank of defense against thousands of cache and his forehead is by definition very strong. Teshki is a mass product, as the T-34s used to be and were designed on the basis of the doctrine of a tank hollow sweeping away Europe in a couple of weeks.
          1. Manager
            Manager 3 November 2012 01: 31
            +1
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCPLj8OiPdo
            1. CRONOS
              CRONOS 3 November 2012 01: 58
              +2
              Thanks for the link! I looked again, even pride in our equipment leaped. good But I still relied on a link with an American designer who allegedly criticized his product.
              1. Manager
                Manager 4 November 2012 19: 18
                0
                Not found. Perhaps deleted already.
  6. understudy
    understudy 2 November 2012 08: 37
    +2
    I would clarify a little ... weapons developed by Soviet designers. And the rest is right, we have something to be proud of. There is still.
  7. serjant4
    serjant4 2 November 2012 09: 05
    +2
    "The armor is strong and our tanks are fast!" VIVAT RUSSIA !!!
  8. Lavrik
    Lavrik 2 November 2012 10: 08
    +3
    T-34 is the best tank of the Second World War. And the best not because his performance characteristics are better than the T-5 "Tiger", on the contrary. But, simple in operation, manufacturing, in manufacturability, it made it possible to produce 3 times more tanks than Germany. As Iosif Vissarionovich used to say, quantity turned into quality. Roughly the same thing, but to a somewhat lesser extent, happened in the postwar years. And the main contribution to the creation of tanks was made by Uralvagonzavod.
    1. CRONOS
      CRONOS 2 November 2012 17: 15
      +2
      T-5 "tiger"

      Then the T-6, the "five" was the Panther.
  9. Samovar
    Samovar 2 November 2012 10: 26
    +7
    "Three heroes". Not Vasnetsov, but also beautiful.
  10. Nechai
    Nechai 2 November 2012 11: 51
    +6
    Quote: Centurion
    Our tanks in the world market have one huge problem. This is their extremely unsuccessful combat use in the postwar years. In the years 50-80, there was an excellent permanent range in the world for testing military equipment and new tactical techniques in combat conditions. This training ground was called the Arab-Israeli war.

    Sergei, this landfill was NOT the ONLY one. And the problems were not with our tanks, but the Arabs, which they got de facto for free. The Israelis, on the other hand, greatly appreciated the captured equipment. And only the refusal of the USSR to supply them with ammunition for it, forced the Arkhazites to be made from these tanks. Well, and already "the new Syrian Tank T-72" (without a drop of humor, such an article in the Soviet Military Bulletin), led the Jews into ecstasy ... from the losses received in the Bekaa Valley.
    But in Vietnam, our T-54 and Chinese Type-59 forced the Pentagon novelty of the then M-60 to get out of the theater. Amer and dosi do not really like to recall this fact. That is, in general, that the M-60 was in Vietnam.
    You need to know your own history and equipment better, dear. And recklessly not to believe everything in the SHO, food producers from history have been weaving together.
    1. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi 3 November 2012 00: 23
      +1
      NechaiWhy write nonsense? We had an 440 reservist tank brigade on Tiran tanks. 4 / 5 is the T-54 / 55 modernized in Israel, and there was a T-62 brigade. Shells for captured tanks were made at IMI.
  11. Islam
    Islam 2 November 2012 20: 27
    0
    Indisputably TANKS CLASS that would be in the auto industry of the workers of the Uralvagonzavod cars would be well sweets there would be all sorts of Mercs would rest
    1. CRONOS
      CRONOS 2 November 2012 23: 53
      +1
      I hasten to upset you, but the design and ergonomics in the union have always paid attention last, and even more so on military equipment. fellow And the design was based on the postulate "a car is not a luxury, but a means of transportation." laughing
      1. Alex 241
        Alex 241 2 November 2012 23: 59
        +2
        I hasten to please you, I paid attention to the design and ergonomics in the union, on the basis of the fact that MEN are in the army. It’s not substances that are heavier than a glass and haven’t raised anything yet. Do you really think that you won’t get out of PM Sorry for the harshness.
        1. CRONOS
          CRONOS 3 November 2012 00: 09
          +1
          in the union paid attention to design and ergonomics, based on the fact that MEN serve in the army

          Loudly, but not believable. I will give an example of the same Soviet form, which is not sweaty for anyone darned, with its unsold ergonomics of pockets that soldiers had to alter for themselves. But it didn’t stop her from being warm and saving soldiers from General Frost: http://news.mail.ru/inregions/siberian/24/incident/10809282/?frommail=1 Or was it not for men? Can you still give your examples of ergonomic and beautiful technology from the design side?
          Do you really think that not getting from the PM, you will get from Glock.

          You can get from a slingshot, another thing about ease of use. And yes, for our happiness, our specialists accumulate and get Glock for themselves. They didn’t know that the old PM, who was being replaced in the army and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, was no worse than Glock, who had long become an example to follow. wink
          Sorry for the sharpness.

          Everything is in order and in the framework of the discussion drinks
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 3 November 2012 00: 21
            +2
            He wore Soviet hb and psh, no problems, then fashion designers and anyone else, except specialists, sewed the uniform. AKM and PM for all the time there was not one delay or failure. Regarding ergonomics, any technique has its pros and cons, we just have the habit of faulting everything .You didn’t go to Hammer either, I learned to drive a UAZ.
            1. CRONOS
              CRONOS 3 November 2012 00: 31
              0
              So I’m saying that it’s not a bad idea to think about the CONVENIENCE of using a weapon, and not just the dry performance characteristics. And in the absence of the best, you can forego anything. The PM has an extremely uncomfortable handle with an almost vertical tilt, due to this, the gun is very uplifted when recoil. It is believed that the optimal angle of the pistol grip should be 111 degrees. About the fuse translator, AK has already erased not a single keyboard on near-armed sites. smile
              You are right, did not go. Hammvi in ​​the interior of the cabin is similar to a small UAZ, due to the centrally located engine and occupying a place in the cabin.
      2. Islam
        Islam 3 November 2012 10: 17
        0
        Quote: CRONOS
        I hasten to upset you, but the union has always paid attention to design and ergonomics in the last place, and even more so to military equipment. And the design was based on the postulate "a car is not a luxury, but a means of transportation."
        I think you are wrong, Look, the USSR defeated Germany and then restored it, but for yourself, excuse me, butter and butter while Germany produces smart cars now. I think we would not be so kind to them. VAZ would be among the first cars in terms of reliability and luxury And now it's Mercedes and BMW i.e. German cars
        1. CRONOS
          CRONOS 3 November 2012 10: 35
          +1
          Something I do not see the logical connection between ergonomics, automotive and Germany with the USSR in the subject under discussion. But still I will answer.
          1) Germany was not preoccupied with the Cold War for half a century and did not spend 70% of its GDP on the defense industry.
          2) Germany has an excellent car school with rich experience, which the USSR did not have. And the market in Germany was open, which contributed to competition and the development of industry. Under the USSR, it was a fortune to live up to the line to buy a car.
          3) the USSR brought a lot of things from Germany, including machine tools with equipment from the Opel plant. All this stuff was transferred to AZLK (Moskvich), but as you know, it didn’t help much.
          4) VAZ is a factory producing low-budget auto products like Opel or Volkswagen in Germany and by definition it could not produce cars such as BMW or Mercedes, because it is expensive for a Soviet citizen.
          1. Karish
            Karish 3 November 2012 10: 55
            +2
            Quote: CRONOS
            1) Germany was not preoccupied with the Cold War for half a century and did not spend 70% of GDP on defense

            Well, the question is debatable about the Cold War, Germany as a NATO country spent the same amount of money, Like America, but no one reached 70%, the USSR collapsed, therefore, the military-industrial complex simply gobbled up the economy.
            Quote: CRONOS
            Germany has an excellent car school with rich experience, which the USSR did not have

            by the way in Korea it was not the same, in Spain, and even in China - but for some reason they were ahead of Russia in this. By the way, I don’t even want to remember about Japan. When did the auto industry develop there?
            Quote: CRONOS
            And the market in Germany was open, which contributed to competition and the development of industry.

            Well, not in the social. competition economies. not laid ideologically

            Quote: CRONOS
            The USSR brought a lot of things from Germany, including machine tools with Opel plant equipment. All this stuff was transferred to AZLK (Moskvich), but as you know, it didn’t help much.

            The company bought a Mercedes plant AvtoVAZ.
            Reconfigured production, start the conveyor ...
            Bam! at the exit of the Lada!

            They dismantled the equipment, drove a new one from Germany, installed
            set up, run.
            !!! Lada again!
            Fuck all the factory staff, bring workers from Germany,
            establish, check, launch.
            At the exit again - Lada!
            There is a hill near the plant; the chief engineer and director of the plant rest on it
            (both with the prefix "ex"). Look at it all.
            Engineer Director
            - And I told you - the place is damned! And then all "hands from the ass, hands from
            ass "...
            1. CRONOS
              CRONOS 3 November 2012 12: 40
              +1
              Well, the question is debatable about the Cold War, Germany as a NATO country spent the same amount of money, Like America, but nobody reached 70%

              I can’t give the exact figures on the German spending on defense. If you have data, then share, I will be grateful to you. But they still can not be compared with the costs of the USSR.
              The Soviet Union and collapsed therefore, just the military-industrial complex gobbled up the economy

              The USSR was artificially destroyed by the first persons of the state, led by Gorbaty. The failed economic reforms of the late 80s contributed to this. Gorby is now in the West a hero and almost the first democrat of the USSR, and I hope the last one of such rank and "talent". Let it burn in hell ... recourse
              by the way in Korea it was not the same, in Spain, and even in China - but for some reason they were ahead of Russia in this. By the way, I don’t even want to remember about Japan. When did the auto industry develop there?

              Karish, it seems to me that you have not read my post, or you are using facts at your discretion. ALL of these countries had a free competing market, they were not socialist (China can be called such only conditionally). What is the point of diverting design reserves from designing the same new armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles / tanks, to new car models, when a Soviet citizen was happy to buy the same "kopeck" or "Muscovite"? And so they flew like hot pasties ... smile
              And Hispanic, as well as the Chinese car industry, sounds too loud. In general, the Chinese have established a copyrighted apartment with a "quality" that is persevering to them, or rather the absence thereof. In the post-perestroika years, our country was definitely not up to the automotive industry. People were puzzled by more pressing questions - what to eat and what to wear. The auto industry of the Russian Federation, in recent years, has begun to slowly climb out of the ass, both in terms of the model range and in terms of build quality. The owners have complaints about both, but not in such quantities as a dozen or two years ago.
              Well, not in the social. competition economies. not laid ideologically

              Well, that's what I'm talking about. drinks But there was a lot of something else laid down in the economy, politics and, most importantly, people's heads, which are still remembered by the watchmen with tears in their hearts. wink
              1. CRONOS
                CRONOS 3 November 2012 12: 42
                +1
                The company bought a Mercedes plant AvtoVAZ.
                Reconfigured production, start the conveyor ...
                Bam! at the exit of the Lada!

                They dismantled the equipment, drove a new one from Germany, installed
                set up, run.
                !!! Lada again!
                Fuck all the factory staff, bring workers from Germany,
                establish, check, launch.
                At the exit again - Lada!
                There is a hill near the plant; the chief engineer and director of the plant rest on it
                (both with the prefix "ex"). Look at it all.
                Engineer Director
                - And I told you - the place is damned! And then all "hands from the ass, hands from
                ass "...

                A joke cuts the truth of the uterus. laughing wassat In general, let's not talk about sad things. Keep cheburek better, I know you love them ... drinks
              2. Karish
                Karish 3 November 2012 13: 00
                +2
                Quote: CRONOS
                But they still can not be compared with the costs of the USSR.

                I agree that they are not fools, they are ruining their own economy. Look at S. Korea - the same is a great example.
                Quote: CRONOS
                The USSR was artificially destroyed by the first persons of the state, led by Gorbaty. The failed economic reforms of the late 80s contributed to this. Gorby is now in the West a hero and almost the first democrat of the USSR, and I hope the last one of such rank and "talent". Let it burn in hell ...

                Well. Yes, but before Gorbi, the shops were simply breaking and the word deficit did not exist. The USSR collapsed when oil prices fell and there was simply nothing to feed people. Find out how many million tons of wheat per year the USSR purchased under Brezhnev. The military-industrial complex has ruined the country, the social economy is neither efficient nor agile. Gorby was just at the wrong time. Nobody could save the country (economically) without changing the system and defusing tension. We simply did not pull the Cold War ezhkonomically.
                Quote: CRONOS
                ALL of the listed countries had a free competitive market, they were not socialist

                Here I am about that. and you Gorby, there was no economy
                .
                Quote: CRONOS
                ). What is the point of diverting design reserves from designing the same new armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles / tanks, to new car models, when a Soviet citizen was happy to buy the same "kopeck" or "Muscovite"? And so they flew like hot pasties ...

                Really, what's the point, besides caring for the needs of the people? And who cared for them?
                Quote: CRONOS
                And Spain’s, as well as the Chinese auto industry, sounds too loud.

                And then what does the Russian auto industry sound like?
                Quote: CRONOS
                But there was a lot of something else laid down in the economy, politics and, most importantly, people's heads, which are still remembered by the watchmen with tears in their hearts

                I somehow guarded the same way. And I’ll say that Russia is simply in collapse and you have nothing to compare with. I have been living in the cap.country for 20 years with wolf laws (as you say)
                But I can say one thing.
                Such working conditions. the benefits and rights of a worker are like here — we didn’t have in the best social years, Medicine, I don’t even want to compare, education — at the time of the USSR was at the level, but maybe at the level of the West. but not higher, the only thing that was definitely better was kindergartens, a day nursery and a decree for 3 years. Here you have to pay a lot (for kindergartens), but explain to me why there are 3 children here - the norm. and in Russia 2 - already a lot?
                Therefore, I do not remember with tears, I have something to compare.
                1. CRONOS
                  CRONOS 4 November 2012 02: 07
                  +2
                  Karish, you are trying hard and hard to compare x y with balalaika, and this is a very thankless task. Both this and the other subject have their charms, as well as their shortcomings. All the same juggling with facts and substitution of concepts. Are you doing this on purpose? lol
                  Appeal Izrail and compare it with the USSR or the Russian Federation ... In a small team or country, it is much easier, easier and faster to restore order and law than in a huge country, with a large population and gigantic distances. I will give you an example: In a team of 5-6 people, everyone knows each other, who’s whose godfather, who’s whose matchmaker. Who was born, who was baptized, and so on. Cohesion is well established, and if something disappears somewhere, then it is easy to clarify and identify. In a team of 300 people sitting in different buildings and offices, you simply will not know how many people are called and there will be no talk of any cohesion.
                  In the USSR there were:
                  1) The best education, starting with kindergarten and ending with universities, and most importantly - it's free and affordable!
                  2) Good medicine and healthcare, again completely free, from vaccinations to complex operations. While in the prosperous West, you are afraid to sneeze, because they will immediately send you to the sick-list and have to be treated, and the cost of medicine there .... it’s better not to think.
                  3) There was a shortage of food, there is no need to deceive the disruption, but these were QUALITATIVE products, no GMOs and other synthetic [censorship]!
                  4) The Soviet people did not know what unemployment was, it simply did not exist and they could even put an unemployed drunk.
                  5) There was censorship. Somewhere she went too far, and somewhere a fence from shit. Now they’re turning on the telly a solid blaggering, debauchery and drugs, as well as crime and other brothers .... I’m not talking about moronic Amer’s cartoons that make children dull in front of our eyes.
                  6) People did not put the meaning of their lives in the collision of money wherever possible. Yes, money was a necessity, but not a postulate of life. For that, now people tear and toss, go over their heads, think how to breed someone for money and quickly cash in on. In the mass consciousness, the Soviet proverb "perish yourself, and help your comrade" has sunk into oblivion ...
                  7) Well, it is customary in the Middle East, as in all Muslim (Israil acre) countries to have many children. Or do you think that civilized Europe is poorer than the kosher Izrail, if there are 1-2 children per family, or even not at all? Now they do not want to give birth to girls, as well as young people to start families. Why should I dissemble you, I'm not in a hurry;)
                2. saturn.mmm
                  saturn.mmm 4 November 2012 20: 01
                  +1
                  Quote: Karish
                  Gorby was just at the wrong time. Nobody could save the country (economically) without changing the system and defusing tension. We simply did not pull the Cold War economically.

                  In the highest echelons of power of the USSR, the idea of ​​turning a communist into a capitalist was born.
                  And the USSR was going through worse times than the end of the 80s and the beginning of the 90s. Yes, it was quite possible in the USSR to live and raise children, now it’s more difficult.
                  1. Karish
                    Karish 4 November 2012 20: 20
                    +2
                    Quote: saturn.mmm
                    The USSR experienced worse times than the late 80s and early 90s.

                    The fact that Russia will get out of this, no doubt. It's a pity just the time. There is a good proverb. Clever from stupid is different in that he knows how to get out of the swamp, wise from clever in that he knows how not to get into the swamp. Therefore, I wish Russia wisdom.

                    Quote: saturn.mmm
                    Yes, it was quite possible in the USSR to live and raise children, now it’s more difficult.

                    You know, a month ago I was in Pompeii (at an excavation site), by the way, by our standards, an absolutely modern city, with sewage, water supply, sidewalks and traffic rules. Saunas and parliament, and the same opportunity to live beautifully. Just know what unites these two topics? - There is no longer either one or the other, but it remains only to remember and admire something. But all this should not prevent you from moving forward.
                    1. saturn.mmm
                      saturn.mmm 7 November 2012 00: 16
                      +1
                      Quote: Karish
                      But all this should not prevent you from moving forward.

                      I agree with everything.
                      Russia is moving slowly forward, God willing, it will accelerate.
  12. Comrade1945
    Comrade1945 2 November 2012 22: 32
    +2
    RUSSIAN TANKS

    Hahaha tongue
    In no way, comrades, I can not forget one most amusing episode in my life. Once I had a chance to visit the tank museum-training ground in Kubinka, which is near Moscow. So ... We walk with friends, walk, admire (an exposition of modern cars), and next to it there is an excursion group consisting of American pensioners of all genders. The guide hotly tells about the wonderful T-72 tank, opposite which the group is standing. And suddenly one old man who was closest to us bends over to his friend and in a loud whisper says in his ear: "Oh, well, we had a lot of problems with these f *** ing tanks ...". Laughs.
  13. CRONOS
    CRONOS 3 November 2012 01: 12
    +2
    A headline article is to say the least provocative. To call Soviet cars, Russian tanks - at least strongly. Why then not Slavic tanks or Orthodox? Single Right-winged Russian Slavic Tank - EPRST. It would sound even more beautiful and add a ton of epic! laughing
  14. Klingenberg
    Klingenberg 3 November 2012 13: 21
    +1
    I liked the article very much, it's just a shame just a word about Chelyabinsk.