New Year: to expect difficulties in the air or not?

145
New Year: to expect difficulties in the air or not?

Basically, this is a continuation of the topic covered here: What will they shoot at us with??. The topic, let's say, is not quite simple, because the stock of Soviet missiles for air defense systems coming to the finish line is an all-Ukrainian problem. And, of course, they will solve it, moreover, at the expense of the Western allies.

This is completely understandable, those who could share missiles for the Buk and S-300 are simply gone. Well, almost none. And the Ukrainians themselves have little reason to remain on the Soviet platform. No matter how masterpiece the Buk is, it was made in Russia, which means that it is known inside and out. All strengths and weaknesses.



Of course, knowing is not at all the same as using, but at least in theory this is the case.

Ukraine will simply have to rearm with NATO air defense systems. Simply because there are no missiles for the complexes in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and there is nowhere to get them. After all, if you look at the geography of sales of the Buk air defense system of all modifications in the world, then the situation for Ukraine is so-so: there are countries that have Buk, but they will not sell them even for money. This is primarily Russia, then Belarus, Syria and Egypt. Yes, Venezuela. It is clear why such a list of "unsold"?

And… everything?

In fact, yes. Armenia (6 pcs.), Georgia (12 pcs.), Algeria (3 pcs.), Kazakhstan (3 pcs.), Cyprus (4 pcs.) - this is not serious. You understand, this is for peace, not for war. And not for free, of course. And, of course, there is no money in Ukraine. Only under loans or generally better for free, in the framework of the fight against world Evil, that is, Russia.

Unfortunately for us, the air defense of Ukraine was destroyed only by Mr. Konashenkov and the media engaged by him. There, in pink reports, all the radars were destroyed, the planes burned down at the airfields, the air defense systems were left with scraps that were unable to provide significant resistance to the Russian Aerospace Forces.

At the same time, some “colleagues” from well-known Russian media, talking about successes in destroying Ukrainian air defense, listing what, in their opinion, survived there, give out phrases like “At the same time, a special air operation to suppress precisely the air defense systems of the Russian Aerospace Forces was not carried out.”

In fact, everything is not so great. And it is a pity that such an operation was not carried out, it would be easier for the ground troops to work, having the unconditional advantage of the Russian aviation in the sky.

But alas, the Ukrainian air defense mobile systems are still working, the early warning radars are far from completely knocked out, and the help of the allies who track the takeoffs of Russian aircraft is simply priceless.

And in general, why expose an expensive radar to a Russian missile attack if the NATO satellite constellation will provide the necessary information about take-offs, and the luxurious reconnaissance aircraft of the Boeing E-3 "Sentry" AWACS and RC-135 unit will track where Russian aircraft are flying from a safe distance and already on the route they will be organized a "meeting". As happened with two Su-34s two months ago.


So the lack of a continuous radar field of the Ukrainian military is not very scary, since a maximum of 10 minutes after takeoff they know where Russian planes are flying and in what quantities.

And these planes (as well as cruise missiles and devil-mopeds) must be met with something. Naturally, it is desirable that these be air defense systems capable of doing this.


How can the West help Ukraine?


The list is not very large, but every element in it is worth thinking about. In the previous article, some of this list has already been touched upon, but today we will look, so to speak, in bulk.

1. "Garbage truck", aka "Patriot" air defense system


The issue here is numbers. 150% that PAC-3 does not shine for Ukrainians, but PAC-2 is quite a good long-range air defense system. Universal, able to work both on aircraft and on missiles.

The probability of hitting an aircraft is 0,8-0,9, a tactical missile is 0,3-0,4 with one missile in the absence of interference. The height of the destruction of ballistic targets is up to 11 km, the radius is 20 km against ballistic targets. A target with an EPR of 0,5 m² (missile) will be seen by the Patriot radar for 100 km, an EPR of 1,5 m² (fighter) - for 130 km, an EPR of 10 m² (bomber) - for 180 km.

How bad or good is Patriot? Well, there are statistics on the use of air defense systems during the Persian Gulf War in January-February 1991, when the Patriots repelled attacks by Iraqi missiles on the territory of Israel and Saudi Arabia. 93 missile launches by the Iraqi Armed Forces were registered at various targets. 49 Iraqi missiles were successfully intercepted, 4 were conditionally intercepted (the missile was shot down, but the warhead worked), and 40 missiles hit the target.

В history entered the penultimate launch on February 25, 1991, when the missile was fired at the territory of Saudi Arabia, the interception attempt failed, and the missile definitely hit the building of the barracks of the Dahran air base. As a result, 28 American servicemen were killed and 100 people were injured.

But these are the statistics of work against ballistic missiles. With cruise missiles and aircraft, everything is much simpler. The receipt of such complexes by the Armed Forces of Ukraine would solve many problems, would complicate the life of Russian pilots and rocket scientists, but ...

But the cost of one launch is still about three million dollars. And that, you know, is money.

2. SAM MIM-23B "Hawk" Phase III


The language does not dare to call “Hawk” modern, but the complex has strengths: more than a lot of air defense systems and missiles were riveted to it, therefore there is something to profit in favor of poor Ukrainians. It is a fact. The Spaniards will give it back, especially if the Germans then fit something new to them.

Since the 60s, the Hawk has regularly taken part in second-rate conflicts and had good results. For example, during the capture of Kuwait by Iraq in 1990, Kuwaiti anti-aircraft gunners shot down two Su-22 Iraqi Air Force aircraft and two helicopters. One is actually his.

The range of the "Hawk" is about 40 km, the maximum height of hitting targets is 18 km. That is, practically an analogue of our S-125 "Neva" / "Pechora", that is, antiquity. However, antiquity is nasty and capable of shooting down flying targets. "Hawk" is not very effective against small targets, but in any case, there is a job for him. The main advantage is that it is cheap and no one feels sorry for it.

3. SAM Krotal-NG


"Rattlesnake" if in the most modern modification - it's unpleasant. French all-weather short-range anti-aircraft missile system designed to deal with air targets in the range of medium, low and (importantly) extremely low altitudes.

10 km in range, 6 km in height. 8 missiles are placed on one launcher. Warhead weighing 14 kg, directional. In general, something like our Thor, but it comes with a chic French thermal imager for hunting small targets.

It has not yet been used in battles, but the French believe that a trial by combat is just right. And to test the performance of their air defense system, they sent two batteries to Ukrainians. It is possible that there will be more deliveries, it is not a fact that NG modifications can upgrade something older from one of the operators in exchange for NG.

The complex is quite simple technologically, and therefore the Chinese and Koreans are happy to copy it.

4. SAM "Skyguard-Aspide"


The Aspid is driven by the good Spaniards, who, at the expense of deliveries to Ukraine, decided to rejuvenate their armed forces. That is, this is an Italian variation from Spada called Toledo.

According to Spanish sources, the actual real effective range of the Aspid missile (this is again the Italian version of the American AIM-7 Sparrow missile) as part of the Toledo was up to 12 km, and the reach in height was up to 5,5 km.

The air defense system did not participate in the hostilities, but, apparently, it will have to. The Spaniards willingly change their "Toledo" to NASAMS, so that the Italian air defense systems will still have adventures in Ukraine.

5. SAM M1097 "Avenger"


"Avenger" is a chic cart of the 21st century. But not a machine gun (although, what am I talking about, a 12,7-mm Browning is present in the configuration), but an anti-aircraft missile. Four launch containers with Stingers were installed on the Humvee, the dimensions of the machine made it possible to place a radar, a thermal imager, a laser rangefinder and a Mk.12 Friend or Foe identification system.

The "Avenger", according to the developers, can hit air targets (including small ones) on a collision course and in pursuit at altitudes of 0,5-3,8 km and ranges of 0,5-5,5 km.

A certain number of "Avengers" have already been delivered to Ukraine, but apparently in a stripped-down configuration. It is forbidden to supply the "Friend or foe" determinant of this model to countries that are not members of NATO. But even without the Mk.12, the Avenger poses a threat to aircraft (especially helicopters) due to the fact that, unlike the conventional Stinger MANPADS, the complex has a more advanced set of detection tools.

6. SAM NASAMS-2


The Norwegian-American system is good. The main feature is the open software architecture, which makes it possible to interface the complex with various types of radars and missiles. In the conditions of Ukraine, where all radars are Soviet models, this is especially important.

The complex is very complex. For its correct and accurate operation, training of the personnel of the Air Defense Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine will be required, but this is unlikely to be a problem. The only question is time.

A standard AMRAAM missile has a horizontal range of up to 25 km. There is an ER model with a flight range increased to 40 km. It is believed that NASAMS-2, using missiles from other systems, can confidently hit targets at distances up to 180 km.

The complex has not yet had a combat use, so the deliveries to Ukraine have certain goals.

7. SAM SLM IRIS-T


Without exaggeration, this is the most modern and most dangerous complex on the list. The range of missiles is up to 40 km, in height - up to 20 km.

New communication standards and next-generation equipment make it possible to place a command center at a distance of up to 20 km from launchers. The high sensitivity radar is able to detect low-flying small targets with a high degree of probability.

A feature of the battery of three launchers, eight missiles each, is the ability to direct all 24 missiles simultaneously at different targets. So far, this is not available to any air defense system of other countries, including Russian ones.

The IRIS SLM missile is capable of actively maneuvering in flight thanks to thrust vector control. In this, the Italians and Norwegians who worked on the engine achieved impressive success. Infrared homing missiles with forced cooling, which makes infrared homing more accurate and "tenacious" and allows you not to be distracted by heat traps.

Well, the Giraffe-4A radar, capable of tracking the movement of 150 targets, is the icing on the cake.

The complex is very dangerous. The first battery has already arrived at the disposal of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, three more are expected in 2023.

What and how to be afraid?


You will have to be afraid of the complexes themselves, and the possible good training of their calculations. In any case, the most advanced weaponry without well-trained personnel is a pile of metal and semiconductors. For us, the problem is that the Western allies will spare no time to train Ukrainian anti-aircraft gunners.

In general, it is worth noting that Ukrainian students are very capable. Well, if they can shoot down modern Su-34 bombers, ambushing them from ZU-23-2 in the back of trucks, then what can we say about what can happen if they are given modern air defense systems at their disposal? Nothing good. For us.
Some unfortunate experts today are blowing bubbles, they say, all this equipment is of short and medium range, that is, it does not pose any danger to Russian aircraft.

I would recommend that they often watch the video of the destruction of aircraft "at close range", from a minimum distance. For a general understanding of the situation.

Today, Ukrainians are using a very unpleasant tactic: SAMs do not turn on their radars and do not identify themselves. Primary data comes from American reconnaissance aircraft and from satellites that track the movements of Russian aircraft and predict their routes. And only when the distance becomes minimal, the radar should be turned on, aiming and launching the rocket. And it's very hard to get away from it. This is taken from the stories of pilots and navigators of our air regiment.

So then a small or medium range, there is not much difference. Here, rather, what is more important is how well the complex can work on any targets, from the Shahed to the Su-34. But this will have to be verified, unfortunately, in practice. Our pilots.

To what extent can the supplied number of batteries solve the problems of rocket attacks on Ukraine? Most likely, batteries will not be able to solve such a problem. They are still too few. Another question is how effectively the Ukrainians will be able to use the air defense systems that have come to them, what tasks they will solve with their help - this is the most interesting question.

But we will receive an answer to it only next year, when all the "gifts" will come to their destination.

Here, of course, I would like it not to reach, but if you look at examples of the past period, there is no doubt that the “gifts” will reach the recipient. To our great regret.

The fact that with the advent of modern air defense systems of the Ukrainian air defense system, the situation in the sky will change is understandable. The only question is how and to what extent. We'll see, there's not much left.
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145 comments
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  1. +12
    2 December 2022 04: 22
    Solution on the surface: it is necessary to make sure that all these complexes are destroyed on railway platforms on the territory of Ukraine. Destroyed for sure. Once they will be disassembled into molecules, the second time, and the third time the impudent Saxons will think why we will spend money on expensive air defense for Ukrainians if it still does not even have time to reach the front. And this applies not only to the supply of air defense, but also to BC, artillery, RSZO and all cargo for the Armed Forces. If they were immediately cut off upon arrival in Ukraine, then their flow would be extremely scarce. Who would want to send cargo knowing that it will be immediately destroyed? And how much easier it would be for our peasants on the front end and words cannot describe. But someone needs it all to reach the front intact and be used for its intended purpose. Business and nothing personal.. am
    1. -15
      2 December 2022 07: 23
      No matter how scary it sounds, but our VKS pilots divert enemy air defenses to themselves, enabling cruise missiles and devil-mopeds to perform strike functions. That is, it is precisely the irrational desire of the enemy to shoot down an aircraft with a pilot that forces ukrov to remove air defense systems from important strategic objects.
      ps. Thanks to the author for the excellent Russian language in the article. Write more often.
      1. +9
        2 December 2022 11: 48
        It doesn't sound scary, but strange. It's not clear why you came up with this.
        1. -2
          2 December 2022 12: 17
          Quote from: Alex_mech


          So far, it is missiles and UAVs that carry the main functions of attack aircraft, right? And aviation cannot yet begin to strike in the same way due to the fact that it could not gain air supremacy. The enemy is celebrating every shot down our plane. A downed moped or UAV dryly states. Doesn't that give you something to think about?
    2. +7
      2 December 2022 11: 24
      it is necessary to make sure that all these complexes are destroyed on railway platforms on the territory of Ukraine.
      I think if they could, they would destroy it. But all high-tech weapons calmly reach the front line. Here is the lack of our intelligence (satellite / undercover), well, NATO transports all this, taking into account all means of camouflage. Unfortunately, I am more inclined that all this, like earlier, it will reach the front. Here we need a new counter strategy, and for this we need sharp minds and enterprising officers, such as during Afghanistan came up with new strategies to counter dushmans, and such as we know in the Moscow Region are not welcome unfortunately
      1. +3
        2 December 2022 19: 38
        And I'm more interested in where the author got the information about the recent downing of 2 of our SU-34s at once, moreover, from the ZU-23.
        Looked for this information. Not found. There is information about the defeat of our aircraft. But at different times and rocket weapons.
      2. 0
        3 December 2022 18: 32
        Even the Germans in 1941, with almost complete air supremacy, could not disrupt the transport of the USSR industry from west to east.
    3. +2
      2 December 2022 11: 46
      Well, what was the matter. Take a map and see the number of roads and railways. Calculate how many forces and means are needed for destruction, then outline reconnaissance measures. It's so simple.
      1. +1
        2 December 2022 12: 29
        Quote from: Alex_mech
        Well, what was the matter. Take a map and see the number of roads and railways. Calculate how many forces and means are needed for destruction, then outline reconnaissance measures. It's so simple.

        There is a saying: It was smooth on paper, but they forgot about the ravines.
    4. 0
      2 December 2022 20: 33
      and for the third time, the impudent Saxons will think why we will spend money on expensive air defense for Ukrainians if it still does not even have time to reach the front

      Not a problem at all - the impudent Saxons in the Russian Federation were squeezed under 300 billion dollars. They will now be allowed to "help" Ukraine.
      Well, that's all. For example, England supplied an air defense system to Ukraine, takes its cost from the squeezed dough (well, of course, there is also a bonus on top :)). And the fact that the complex will be disassembled into molecules during transportation through the territory of Ukraine is the tenth thing.
      The main thing is that they both helped and got their own gesheft.
      Although, of course, for the West it is preferable that the complex arrives and works on ours for a long time and successfully. Then there is a gesheft and harm to Russia.
    5. The comment was deleted.
    6. +8
      2 December 2022 22: 19
      I remember here the "hat throwers" and the sect of "witnesses" of the "Mighty" Khibiny "and the cowardly" Cook "howled in all voices that our electronic warfare "will kill anything", including AWACS aircraft and how they will cover our troops with an "umbrella". Peresvet will cope with the satellites. Well, how are the “achievements” in this regard? Everything is already “crammed”? Where is the “umbrella”, then? What about the “satellites”? Everyone is already “blind” and flying garbage with “clogged channels” transmission-reception? what
      1. +4
        3 December 2022 20: 26
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        our electronic warfare systems will "kill anything", including AWACS aircraft and, as an "umbrella", will cover our troops.
        Greetings! Well, only illiterate people, of which there are few, could write this. How can electronic warfare be applied to an AWACS aircraft that flies over Poland or Romania? We would (which only the lazy did not write about, so this is definitely not a secret) at least an "umbrella" of encrypted operational communication between all units of our group, it would be just wonderful!
    7. 0
      3 December 2022 18: 30
      Do you have a magic wand? Even if the railway of Ukraine stops, they will be able to overtake them on their own, by tractors ...
    8. +1
      3 December 2022 20: 19
      Quote from: FoBoss_VM
      Solution on the surface: it is necessary to make sure that all these complexes are destroyed on railway platforms on the territory of Ukraine. Destroyed for sure.

      Your words, yes to our command in the ears! How many times and by whom has it already been said about communications, at least through the Dnieper, but things are still there, like bridges through which "gifts" are delivered to the database zones. To get a clear answer at least once: why were the bridges across the Dnieper not destroyed? Indeed, on the example of Antonovsky, we can judge that this is quite possible!
      1. 0
        27 January 2023 12: 39
        Does the RF Armed Forces have highmars?) or air supremacy? how are you going to destroy it?
    9. 0
      6 December 2022 05: 55
      it is necessary to make sure that all these complexes are destroyed on railway platforms on the territory of Ukraine

      How, astral attacks?
  2. +3
    2 December 2022 05: 04
    the NATO satellite constellation will provide the necessary information about the take-offs, and the luxurious reconnaissance aircraft of the Boeing E-3 "Sentry" AWACS and RC-135 block will trace from a safe distance where the Russian planes are flying and a “meeting” will be organized for them already on the route. How it happened with two Su-34s two months ago

    This is so ... the Ukronats, based on the satellite data transmitted to them by the Americans, already approximately know the number of missiles for the next strike on their infrastructure.
    They know what carriers will be used, they know and see the preparation of a strike by our Aerospace Forces at our airfields, bases, warehouses, etc. etc.
    In general, surprise does not work, satellite images are very clear and detailed ... hello comrade Bortnikov, take action ... at least build aircraft hangars.
    As long as the enemy is aware of all our actions, we will not see victory. request
    1. -12
      2 December 2022 07: 43
      Well, of course. In Ukraine, the energy system is practically destroyed, but you still say something about the successful Ukrainian air defense.
      1. +6
        2 December 2022 08: 38
        The power system is destroyed only in the reports for TV, as well as air defense
        1. +1
          2 December 2022 12: 31
          Quote: Vladimir80
          The power system is destroyed only in the reports for TV, as well as air defense

          Missiles for the S-300 air defense system, and maybe the systems themselves will be supplied to dill by Greece. Everything is in front.
    2. +1
      2 December 2022 11: 51
      You can't show hangars at the parade. What are the useless things? You would also suggest concrete hangars to protect aircraft from damage. Sarcasm in case someone didn't get it.
    3. +1
      2 December 2022 17: 41
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      As long as the enemy is aware of all our actions, we will not see victory.
      and gouge out the eye of the enemy so that he doesn’t peep ... didn’t try? Not!? --That's it! It's time to organize the PDTR to the fullest when organizing the application of MRAU ... Otherwise, we all play "war", and do not fight using the available forces and means of electronic warfare ... So you can "preserve" military secrets until complete victory over yourself! Well, if it’s a pitchfork, then the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation must somehow find a way to “stun” the spies from the Aerospace Forces of our adversary from NATO ... The matter is getting serious ... Soon it can even get to the “hot” with NATO ...
      I would not want to later engage in "glazing" the entire NATO camarilla and the territory once mandated by the Sioux Indians and the Iroquois.
      AHA.
  3. -1
    2 December 2022 05: 39
    Quote from: FoBoss_VM
    But someone needs all this to reach the front intact and be used for its intended purpose. Business and nothing personal..

    As the Kremlin explains... this is a hybrid war... it is completely different from the Great Patriotic War both in its goals and in the nature of its database management.
    This is dictated by the laws of capital and the objective reality that the Kremlin cannot overcome in the ways of the Communist Party of the USSR.
    In order to understand what is happening, one must pull out the works of Lenin from the dusty attic and carefully read his quotes concerning the contradictions of the capitalist world. smile
    And put this tracing paper on today's world ... you will see many coincidences, sometimes repeating even to the smallest detail with the events of the beginning of the last century.
    1. -1
      2 December 2022 07: 26
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Quote from: FoBoss_VM
      But someone needs all this to reach the front intact and be used for its intended purpose. Business and nothing personal..

      As the Kremlin explains... this is a hybrid war... it is completely different from the Great Patriotic War both in its goals and in the nature of its database management.
      This is dictated by the laws of capital and the objective reality that the Kremlin cannot overcome in the ways of the Communist Party of the USSR.
      In order to understand what is happening, one must pull out the works of Lenin from the dusty attic and carefully read his quotes concerning the contradictions of the capitalist world. smile
      And put this tracing paper on today's world ... you will see many coincidences, sometimes repeating even to the smallest detail with the events of the beginning of the last century.

      Again. Soviet recipes do not work without Soviet values. Without justice, without equality and Soviet power.
  4. 0
    2 December 2022 05: 47
    What and how to be afraid?
    . It is not necessary to be afraid, a reasonable precaution, this is understandable ...
    Fights will go on everywhere, on all horizons...
    Whoever is ready wins...
  5. +8
    2 December 2022 05: 58
    It would seem that quite recently Bongo wrote on this topic - well, you can just take the text and not add such pearls as "... why put an expensive radar under attack by a Russian missile if the NATO satellite constellation will provide the necessary information about the take-offs, and the chic reconnaissance aircraft of the Boeing E-3 "Sentry" AWACS and RC-135 block will trace from a safe distance where Russian planes are flying and already on the route they will be organized a "meeting". As happened with two Su-34s two months ago.". Or if you really want to add your own, you can at least try first of all to find out what the satellites and the Sentry radar can do? And find out what the RS 135 does? I'm hinting - the keywords are "radar" and "distance".

    And why should the Finnish ItO 90 be passed off as the French CrotalNG?

    Today, Ukrainians are using a very unpleasant tactic: SAMs do not turn on their radars and do not identify themselves. Primary data comes from American reconnaissance aircraft and from satellites that track the movements of Russian aircraft and predict their routes. And only when the distance becomes minimal, the radar should be turned on, aiming and launching the rocket. And it's very hard to get away from it. This is taken from the stories of pilots and navigators of our air regiment.
    - it’s very bad if the performance characteristics of NATO / USSR equipment in some regiment are still unknown (unless, of course, these are fantasies "from a reliable source"). Even worse, if the supply of air defense equipment to Ukraine is not tracked even by open sources. You can recommend the site Military Review, here you can find information about radars, and about air defense systems and about such a miracle as OLS, which was also installed on the OSA (television-optical sight).

    I would like to recall simple but correct words:"Lies and lies in propaganda, agitation and the press discredit party political work, the naval press and cause exceptional harm to the cause of the Bolshevik education of the masses.
    From the directive of the Deputy Commissar of the Navy of the USSR and the Chief of the Main Political Directorate of the Navy, Army Commissioner 2, rank IV Rogova.
    1. +3
      2 December 2022 11: 03
      Quote: Wildcat
      - it’s very bad if the performance characteristics of NATO / USSR equipment in some regiment are still unknown (unless, of course, these are fantasies "from a reliable source").

      Judging by the article, even the standard ZRV tactics since Vietnam are unknown in our Air Force. Moreover, the Soviet ZRV.
      Quote: Wildcat
      Even worse, if the supply of air defense equipment to Ukraine is not tracked even by open sources.

      And here is nothing surprising. For there was a precedent with the Georgian Buk, the delivery of which from Ukraine was not noticed even despite the fact that data about it were published in an open UN report.
      Quote: Wildcat
      You can recommend the site Military Review, here you can find information about radars, and about air defense systems and about such a miracle as OLS, which was also installed on the OSA (television-optical sight).

      Yes, where they just didn’t put it - especially after they realized that a response could quickly fly over a radiating radar. There, in the photo of my native S-125, you can see the “eye with a cover” of the “Karat”, which was stuck to the right of the bottom of the central antenna of the UV-10: smile
  6. 0
    2 December 2022 06: 19
    So the lack of a continuous radar field of the Ukrainian military is not very scary, since a maximum of 10 minutes after takeoff they know where Russian planes are flying and in what quantities.

    Do we have any special planes? They are not trained in maneuvers and fly only in a straight line?
    1. +3
      2 December 2022 06: 33
      It is clearly seen from the article: they fly in a straight line, and NATO knows the targets in advance (but how else? If there is a take-off place, then the place of the target must be known so that the Armed Forces of Ukraine warn and the Armed Forces of Ukraine could make ambushes!): "The primary data comes from American reconnaissance aircraft and from satellites that track the movements of Russian aircraft and predict their routes. And only when the distance becomes minimal, the radar should be turned on, aiming and launching the rocket."
      The radar "which should be turned on" is apparently the same one that is on the Avenger.
      1. +2
        2 December 2022 06: 46
        if there is a place to take off, then the place of the target must be known,

        Are they using the Nostradamus app or a simplified version of Vanga?
        1. 0
          2 December 2022 07: 03
          There is "Virage-Tablet", but perhaps there is already a new version, the program "Gorilka-Salo". request

          IMHO, out of the possible, the RBS 70 "partners" will be thrown in soon, the latest versions are advertised almost 8-9 km away.
          It is also likely very C300 and TORs from Greece and Cyprus.

          I also had a discussion with Donavi49, he thought that perhaps they would give Rapiers from the State Security; my IMHO, they were so tormented with them that at the beginning of the year they were removed from service in the State Security Service and possibly immediately "handed over to non-ferrous metal". But Donavi49 doesn’t go to the site anymore ....

          And the authors of the article are clearly hinting at something wassat , posting a photo of Hawk from the Israeli army! laughing Moreover, the times of the first "Gulf War". laughing
          Waiting for clarification...
    2. -5
      2 December 2022 11: 54
      No, high-tech NATO has radars that work for more than 1 second and can track maneuvers.
    3. +3
      2 December 2022 12: 32
      Quote: Konnick
      So the lack of a continuous radar field of the Ukrainian military is not very scary, since a maximum of 10 minutes after takeoff they know where Russian planes are flying and in what quantities.

      Do we have any special planes? They are not trained in maneuvers and fly only in a straight line?

      It seems that our pilots simply do not know how and have not been trained in the tactics of suppressing enemy air defense. The Israelis are very good at this. NATO pilots were taught this, because they needed to overcome the powerful Soviet air defense. And ours ... do not know how and cannot. Otherwise, a large-scale air operation to open and destroy the entire enemy air defense would have been developed long ago. But even Gerasimov already understood that there was nothing to be done with such pilots trained for parades in this war. So they sit at the airfields, afraid to show their nose.
    4. -3
      2 December 2022 15: 00
      What is there to know? Missiles, if launched, fly towards Ukraine. That's why they turn on the sirens. But in the overwhelming majority of cases, they turn them on after the missiles hit their facilities.
      Further. Our missiles go low at altitudes, as a rule, beyond the ability to capture many Western air defense installations, with a low EPR and a very low thermal footprint, plus some types of missiles can use electronic warfare when enemy radar is operating, which dramatically further reduces the detection range. And besides this, it allows the missile to maneuver and enter the target from any direction. By the way, during a raid on Kyiv, IRIS, instead of a target, hit houses with its missiles. In one of the destroyed houses, fragments of a rocket of this installation were found. But several houses were reported destroyed. Further, in fact, silence. This means that instead of air targets, IRIS worked on the ground.
      1. +2
        2 December 2022 22: 10
        ..yes, of course, everything is fine with us, absolute domination, everyone is resting drinks
        1. +1
          3 December 2022 11: 03
          Good, bad. It's just that there is a tactic for using our missiles. You probably met the statements of the Ukrainian military that a small part of the missiles (the first wave) goes without a warhead. These are usually imitator rockets. They allow you to open the enemy's air defense in one direction or another. and then, with an adjustment, there is a main wave, its missiles bypass areas with focal enemy air defense. Well, since our missiles were created to counter almost all air defense systems that are used in Ukraine, including Western ones, they are not the latest, but somewhat outdated, the missiles pass almost unhindered at targets.
          1. 0
            9 January 2023 10: 06
            That is, they told you that the first wave of missiles (which are worth their weight in gold) are thrown without a charge? .. do you seriously believe in this
  7. 0
    2 December 2022 06: 22
    but it comes with a chic French thermal imager for hunting small targets.

    Haven't our advanced Left-handers from Skolkovo been able to make some kind of thermal imagers for so many years? It seems that funding is going there quite regularly - and such funding is not weak. Oh yes, what the hell are thermal imagers, in the same place in the laboratories all the parts and components with other arduins are used by Chinese ...
  8. +3
    2 December 2022 06: 28
    Well, one more discovery in military affairs:
    "Avenger" is a chic cart of the 21st century. But not a machine gun (although, what am I talking about, a 12,7-mm Browning is present in the configuration), but an anti-aircraft missile. Four launch containers with Stingers were installed on the Humvee, the dimensions of the machine made it possible to place a radar, a thermal imager, a laser rangefinder and a Mk.12 Friend or Foe identification system.

    Radar, IMHO, secret - invisible! The so-called stealth radar. I was informed about this radar in the secret assault-bomber-fighter regiment named after. D. Vader.
  9. -15
    2 December 2022 07: 41
    Another pro-Westernist writes about the "great wins" of Ukraine, which do not exist. If 2 Su-34s in 9 months is a great victory for you, then I would like to see what you consider a great failure.
    1. -1
      2 December 2022 07: 46
      Two 34s were lost within a week, as far as I remember. How many aircraft were lost in 9 months - no one will say. On the other hand, a special military operation does not happen without losses, as for me, the VKS works out perfectly and the losses could be many times higher
      1. +1
        2 December 2022 11: 57
        You can go to Oryx and see the confirmed losses. It is not clear only by what factor to multiply in order to understand how many were not confirmed by photographs.
        1. -1
          6 December 2022 21: 03
          And what makes you think that objective and confirmed data will appear on an openly pro-Ukrainian sharashka created by none other than Bellingcat?! Bellingcat, let me remind you, claims that it was allegedly Russia that shot down the Boeing - what faith can they have after that? They are endlessly deceitful, biased, biased and extremely pro-Western.
          1. 0
            7 December 2022 10: 21
            Since Oryx provides evidence. And without proof, nothing is published.
            1. 0
              7 December 2022 13: 49
              I saw what kind of "evidence" there is - one helicopter is pulled apart for parts and photographed in different places ...
              1. 0
                7 December 2022 16: 14
                Can you give a link where the same helicopter is in the photo of Oryx?
                1. 0
                  8 December 2022 11: 23
                  Can you give a link where it's definitely not the same one?
                  1. 0
                    8 December 2022 13: 39
                    That is, you have no evidence, only speculation
                    1. 0
                      9 December 2022 01: 54
                      Oryx has no evidence, but I have logic.
                      1. 0
                        9 December 2022 09: 39
                        No not like this. Oryx has photos and videos, and you have nothing but logic. wink
                      2. 0
                        27 January 2023 12: 45
                        And he has no logic either. The burden of proof is on the side of the claimant. If there is a statement that the helicopter was pulled apart - you need to prove it. and phrases like "but prove that it's not so" from somewhere in the 4th grade
      2. -1
        2 December 2022 22: 13
        Could be higher if they flew many times more ....
    2. +12
      2 December 2022 07: 57
      Another cheer patriot underestimates Western weapons. It's not about how much they shot down, but about the fact that before air supremacy, as before Kyiv with cancer!)))
  10. -5
    2 December 2022 08: 04
    While the air defense of the outskirts is not saturated with Western complexes, it is necessary to destroy the infrastructure to the maximum
  11. +1
    2 December 2022 08: 43
    I'm sorry, of course, about this:
    the dimensions of the machine made it possible to place a radar, a thermal imager, a laser rangefinder and an identification system "Friend or foe" Mk.12.

    In principle, there is no radar of its own there. Here is what they write about the composition of the complex (https://missilery.info/missile/avenger):
    ... The main component of the complex is the PMS (Pedestal-Mounted Stinger) gyro-stabilized platform, on which the Stinger missiles are installed in the TPK (2 packages of 4 pieces), optical and thermal imaging means for detecting and tracking targets, a laser rangefinder, an identification device "own -alien" AN / PPX-3BIFF, control and indication systems, radio stations AN / PRC-77 and AN / VRC-47 (an AN / VRC-91 SINCGARS radio communication system can be installed in the future), 12.7-mm machine gun. The PMS platform is mounted on the M988 "Hammer" off-road vehicle and other chassis types such as the Bv206, M548 and M113AZ. PMS can be dismantled from the carrier and used as an autonomous firing unit in a stationary version. The pointing angle in azimuth is 360°, in elevation - from -10° to +70°. The initial turn of the platform to the target is carried out manually by the operator using the steering wheel. A 24 V direct current source is used to power the electrical components of the system.

    In the center of the platform there is an operator's cabin equipped with a transparent screen for monitoring the air situation. The aiming point marker is projected onto this screen. The position of the marker corresponds to the direction of rotation of the homing head of the missile, and its appearance informs the operator about the capture of the target selected for firing by the homing head.

    The detection system includes a CA-562 sight of the optical range from CAI, a Magnavox AN / VLR-1 (or IR-18) thermal imager, an automatic target tracking device, a laser rangefinder, which allows you to detect, capture and automatically track air targets at the required ranges. The thermal imager is equipped with an electric drive and is installed on the left below the missile container. This is an autonomous system operating in the wavelength range from 8 to 12 microns. The operator accompanies the target visually using an optical sight, or using a thermal imager in bad weather and at night. The system is capable of automatically tracking the target, determining the distance to the target, and firing on the move at speeds up to 35 km/h.
    Automatic target tracking (AVT - automatic video tracker) provides an automatic tracking module that determines the current misalignment errors in azimuth and angle and deploys the platform in the direction of the target. The laser rangefinder is mounted on the left side under the thermal imager. The measured range to the target is processed by the fire control system and used for automatic launch when the target enters the reachable area of ​​the Avenger air defense system. The mark of permission to open fire in the form of a special symbol appears on the display of the thermal imager and optical sight. This allows firing targets at maximum ranges in automatic mode - the operator only has to press the start button, immediately select and prepare the next missile.


    Another thing is that the AN / MPQ-64 Sentinel radar can be used as a control center tool, but, EMNIP, it is not available on the Humvek chassis, only in the form of a trailer

  12. -5
    2 December 2022 08: 45
    How bad or good is Patriot? Well, there are statistics on the use of air defense systems during the Persian Gulf War in January-February 1991, when the Patriots repelled attacks by Iraqi missiles on the territory of Israel and Saudi Arabia. 93 missile launches by the Iraqi Armed Forces were registered at various targets. 49 Iraqi missiles were successfully intercepted, 4 were conditionally intercepted (the missile was shot down, but the warhead worked), and 40 missiles hit the target.


    In short, the "Patriot" turned out to be bad. Actions against the already obsolete tactical missile, which was not far from the V-2. There is no detachable warhead, there is no jammer, the launches are single.
    By the way, it was necessary to indicate how many anti-aircraft missiles had to be spent on one downed "scud" (a good indicator is no more than 2 missiles per target).

    With cruise missiles and aircraft, everything is much simpler.


    In fact, everything is more difficult. Maneuverable targets capable of flying at low altitudes with enveloping the terrain.

    And in general, why put an expensive radar under attack by a Russian missile if the NATO satellite constellation will provide the necessary information about take-offs, and the luxurious reconnaissance aircraft of the Boeing E-3 "Sentry" AWACS and RC-135 block will trace from a safe distance where Russian aircraft are flying and already on the route they will be organized a "meeting".


    Little "but". To organize a meeting, it is necessary that the technical devices capable of organizing this meeting are not inferior in mobility to Russian weapons. Well, if the Armed Forces of Ukraine still have fighter-interceptors (such as the Su-27), then yes - this is possible. Although the question is who will send whom to the last turn. But ground-based air defense systems, most likely, will not be in time for the rendezvous point, they have less speed (especially in conditions of mud and / or snow cover).
    1. +4
      2 December 2022 10: 47
      Quote: Illanatol
      In short, the "Patriot" turned out to be bad. Actions against the already obsolete tactical missile, which was not far from the V-2. There is no detachable warhead, there is no jammer, the launches are single.

      The Patriot performed well. ZR traditional design against ballistic missiles gave the effectiveness of more than 50%. However, this did not suit the Americans and the Patriot was completely cut into a hit-to-kill. Pak-3 has an efficiency close to 100%.

      Take an interest in the real, and not Konashenkov's, effectiveness of the S-300PMU against the same Scud. The year before last, such an experiment was carried out in Azerbaijan. I note that the Azerbaijanis are perhaps the most intelligent and trained army of the CIS.
      Quote: Illanatol
      By the way, it was necessary to indicate how many anti-aircraft missiles had to be spent on one downed "scud" (a good indicator is no more than 2 missiles per target).

      Drawn to the ears. Just according to the standard, 2 missiles are sent to the target. Doesn't make sense anymore.
      Quote: Illanatol
      In fact, everything is more difficult

      In fact, everything is easier. For such purposes, even a patriot is not needed.
      Quote: Illanatol
      But ground-based air defense systems, most likely, will not be in time for the rendezvous point

      And they don't need to. They must always be where the target is. Air defense at the national level is also a quantitative problem.
      1. 0
        11 December 2022 21: 06
        Didn't want to get into a highly intellectual srach, but I have to.
        Let's look at the problems of using the indicated air defense systems and other wunderwaffe from the point of view of combat use, and not the propaganda that Mr. Skomorokhov arranged once again.
        1. When citing the performance characteristics of systems, especially the parameters of the ZP, it would be nice to indicate the heights for which the boundaries of the ZP are given. One example, for the "Garbage truck": for a target of the KR type, the target detection range along the radio horizon is 53,6 km with a flight altitude of 100 m and an RCS of 1 m2, with an RCS of 0,5, the range is about 40 - 42 km. not 100 km. The same is true for an aircraft, when flying at H = 1000m, the range will be about 140 km, and at an altitude of 100 m, it will be about 60 km. For other systems, the picture is the same. And that's without considering the terrain.
        2. NATO reconnaissance systems provide reconnaissance information; for firing air defense systems, combat information is needed. What is the difference? The answer is simple, accuracy. And the shooting process is not as primitive as Skomorokhov thinks: he received information, AIMED and fired. So, according to combat information, the missile guidance station is displayed in the corners in the target location area, a range strobe is formed at the target location range and after that a high one is turned on (this is a big simplification, but it will do for us). After turning on the high, the target should be in the area of ​​\u300b\uXNUMXbthe space limited by the strobes at the corners and range, but it may not be there, there are enough reasons for this, take my word for it. So, what is next? Further, a search is carried out in extended zones, and after the target is detected (which is far from a fact), a capture is made for escort. All this takes time and not a little. But this is all a saying, the fairy tale is, but how to enter this combat information into the air defense system? From a piece of paper or from a photo it will not work, you need an automated command post that converts the coordinates of AWACS, satellite, etc. to the coordinates of the air defense system. I don't know if this has been decided, but there are doubts. It is not a fact that the systems exchange in the same language and understand each other. In the S-XNUMX, you can’t exactly drive the coordinates from AWACS. You can, of course, "farm", but this is also the time, maybe that's why NASAM and the "flowers" of IRIS hit home.
        We are talking about serious systems, I don’t want to talk about trinkets like the Avenger or Asp, these are systems (with their tiny kill zones) for fighting off helicopters and UAVs.
        3. Let's talk about the depth of issuing combat information (BI). To destroy targets at the far borders of the affected areas, you need BI from a range that will allow you to turn on the system (after all, you won’t keep it constantly on), assess the situation and make a decision to fire on specific targets, issue a command from the command post of the grouping to fire units, search, detection and capture of the target, prepare the missile, launch it and accompany the target and the missile until the moment of the meeting. We multiply this time by the target's flight speed and get the range from which it is necessary to issue information in order to destroy the target on the far border of the ZP. This range will be about two times more than the range of the far border of the ZP. For a "garbage truck" for a fighter, about 200-250 km., A little less for the Kyrgyz Republic, but there is also a long-range RFP with a gulkin .. nose. All this with a little primitivism, but essentially true.
        4. How to get these ranges? Yes, it’s very simple, we need RTV, which will create a continuous radar field (RLP) at the right height. And again plugging, the RTV is practically knocked out, and what is left is finished off with Lancets. The RTV that remains needs to be paired with the air defense system, and here it’s not a plug, but a dam, most Sumerian radars do not have digital outputs, and those that have, give it out in a very specific language, imported air defense systems will definitely not understand them, but here you can definitely " to farm", he himself did this with his officers, matched the number 19Zh6 with 5D91 bypassing the Lowlands.
        What to do? Use these air defense systems in an autonomous mode, which will lead to a focal zone of fire of the group and a significant decrease in the group's effectiveness. The losses of our means of attack will, of course, increase, then the Sumerians will shoot, but this will not radically affect the situation with air defense. I can advise the Sumerians to withdraw the air defense systems from the cities (from Kyiv in particular), ruin less apartments and houses. I don’t understand at all what insufficiently smart person advised you to put them in urban areas, but you yourself reduced their characteristics at least twice.
        Everything that I have written here is very simplified. In fact, there are a lot of factors affecting the effectiveness of the ZRV grouping, I tried to explain why the situation with the cover of objects in Sumeria has practically no chance of changing radically.
        The author, Skomorokhov, wrote another panic article praising Western weapons without understanding the basics of creating air defense groups, without understanding how air defense systems are characterized and what characteristics, and most importantly HOW, affect their combat capabilities. With the permission of Skomorokhov, I want to give him some advice:
        1. What you write, and especially HOW, not to write, is already tense in society, and there are enough alarmists without you. You could put it in purely technical language. There will be more benefits.
        2. Do not write about what you are poorly versed in and do not interpret technical data according to your own understanding, this is ugly and not decent.
        3. Think about the future, karma can get you.
        I understand that you do not need my advice, but still, what if ...
        I have the honor.
        1. +1
          12 December 2022 01: 11
          They wrote a multi-bookaff, mostly it seems to be true, but it is not clear for what purpose.
          Quote: gjkrjdybr50
          Use these SAMs in autonomous mode, which will lead to a hot zone of fire

          Naturally. Now Ukraine is forced to build up bushes of Western air defense on the field of post-Soviet air defense. She has no other options - the resource and ammunition of the Soviet air defense is strictly limited.
          Quote: gjkrjdybr50
          radically, the situation with the cover of objects in Sumeria has practically no chance of changing.

          So they work for it - so that at least it does not change. Whether it's bad or good, but 10 months of air defense holds the sky.
          Quote: gjkrjdybr50
          I understand what insufficiently smart person advised you to put them in urban areas

          In what world do nasamsas with irises stand in a building? Did you see them there? Quite competent and well-motivated people work in the air defense of Ukraine, I assure you.
          1. 0
            12 December 2022 11: 07
            Yes, of course "... multi-bookcuff, basically it seems to be true, but it's not clear for what purpose." This only means that even after reading "...multi-bookcuff", you did not understand from what you read the main messages that characterize you as a skygazer. You missed all the basics, grabbed what is beneficial to you and are trying to be clever on this. But let's start out of order.
            1. It was in your world that I saw a video (yours) with S-300, Strela and Buk placed in Kyiv, among the buildings. I saw a video with a Buk rocket in horizontal flight flying into the 7th - 8th floor of the house. And the video of AMRAAMs from the Nasams flying into your houses and lying on the streets? And mind you, I didn't post it, these are your videos.
            2. Haven't you wondered why "... Now Ukraine is forced to build up Western air defense bushes ...", instead of creating groups to cover objects? I wrote to you why, but after reading you didn’t understand, blaming everything on the fact that "... the resource and ammunition of Soviet air defense is strictly limited ...", I wonder how, we are talking about the problems of Western air defense systems, and the resource of Soviet systems is to blame for this ? I could still understand if you wrote about the restoration of the former ZRV groups supplied to you by the "menagerie" from Western systems, but the logic in your presentation is not clear.
            3. Yes, the situation with air defense will not change for the better, because. you are not "... 10 months of air defense holds the sky ...", this is evidenced by the state of your energy and military-industrial complex. And better, I doubt it very much, will not. With all your NATO AWACS, their own satellites, etc., there is no main source of combat information, and I doubt that anything can be done under your conditions.
            4. The essence of the comment was not to analyze the state of your air defense, but to the fact that a certain Skomorokhov, who essentially does not understand anything in air defense systems, writes a panic article with the meaning "FSE is gone, Sumeria will have an irresistible western air defense", and tries to confirm this indiscriminately picked up figures from the performance characteristics of Western systems. That is, he behaves like a card sharper. You probably know what kind of cheating they hit with candelabra on certain parts of the body? He has already grabbed for the videoconferencing, the same thing is happening with this topic. Well, Skomorokhov seems to endure everything for money, today I found his new article, about artillery, with a similar message: "Everything is bad, we are gone, the artillery is over, guns are being cleaned with bricks."
            And the last. Thirty-five calendars in air defense, two specialized educations with "distinction" give me the right (at least I think so) to think that what is written is not "... basically it seems to be true ...", but basically true. And the first cases of combat use of Western systems by your specialists (and I think that not only yours, but also Western ones) confirm this.
            And the last thing, write more, it is interesting to talk with a person who was somehow leaning sideways to air defense problems in a country like Great Sumeria.
            For sim, I have the honor.
            1. -1
              12 December 2022 12: 00
              Quote: gjkrjdybr50
              which characterizes you as a skygazer. You missed all the basics, grabbed what is beneficial to you

              Ага.
              Quote: gjkrjdybr50
              video (your) with S-300, Strela and Buk placed in Kyiv, among the buildings

              These stories refer to the period "Kyiv in three days". Yes, there were a lot of stupid things.
              Quote: gjkrjdybr50
              videos of AMRAAMs from the Nasams flying into your houses and lying in the streets?

              But I have not seen the video with AMRAAMs. Moreover, I have no idea where the nasamses are at all and whether they work.
              Quote: gjkrjdybr50
              Your presentation doesn't make sense.

              Nothing complicated. On top of the old Soviet air defense, a new NATO one needs to be built up. Naturally, one is not compatible with the other. Soviet radars give NATO systems maximum information about the threatened direction.
              Quote: gjkrjdybr50
              This is evidenced by the state of your energy and military-industrial complex.

              )))
              Soviet air defense against the Kyrgyz Republic is useless. Connection of AWACS is possible only after saturation with NATO standard systems - now it is not being discussed.
              Quote: gjkrjdybr50
              With all your NATO AWACS, their own satellites, etc., there is no main

              All this wealth is not compatible with the Soviet systems. Yes, and the Avax needs to fly to the Dnieper in order to cover everything normally - but there have been no such decisions yet.
              Quote: gjkrjdybr50
              FSE is gone, Sumeria will have irresistible western air defense, "

              )))
              Maybe it will, maybe it won't, you can't guess.
              Quote: gjkrjdybr50
              Thirty-five calendars in air defense, two specialized educations with "honors" give me the right (at least I think so) to think that what is written is not "... basically it seems to be true ...", but basically true

              Nevertheless, you do not know and cannot know what the air defense situation is in another country now and what it will be like in the summer. Unfortunately, even the Ukrainian leadership knows this very vaguely.
              1. 0
                12 December 2022 13: 14
                Well, this has never happened before, and here it is again! Again we collected what is profitable or what you can answer and voiced. Well, isn't it a skygazer? I really thought I was actually a specialist, but here ... I didn’t think to have a propaganda conversation with you, but you constantly slip into it. I had a lot of acquaintances, friends and colleagues (to my great regret, it WAS) in Ukraine, and I noticed that as soon as you start talking about something that is bad in Ukraine, the interlocutor immediately slips into politics and propaganda. Do not be like those, not only does it look bad, but it also does not characterize a person very well.
                Yes, and so just in case, but is it okay that the S-300 was created just against the Axes back in 1975-76? And on the firing of the PMU in a strike from (in my opinion) 20 missiles, with different flight profiles and at different heights, destroyed everything, you know, ALL twenty and this, if I'm not mistaken, 1988 Hello Nasams and "flowers" Irises, they can do this ?
                Goodbye, young man. From the beginning, nothing, and then it became unpleasant to communicate.
                1. +2
                  12 December 2022 13: 58
                  Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                  And on the firing of the PMU in a strike from (in my opinion) 20 missiles, with a different flight profile and at different heights, destroyed everything, you know, ALL twenty and this, if I'm not mistaken, 1988.

                  Yes, I have already heard this amazing story a couple of times. You see, I am not inclined to believe such stories.
                  Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                  you start talking about something that is bad in Ukraine,

                  There are many bad things in Ukraine. 8 years tryndet that the country was attacked and meet a real attack with a bare f... in fact. Well, at least the enemy does not know how to fight, even though he was lucky in this.

                  However, this is not a reason to tell amazing stories about shooting irises at houses. Their TV would tell me if I watched it.
                  1. 0
                    12 December 2022 15: 31
                    After being transferred to the reserve, I worked as a chief specialist (one of) at the enterprise of the Almaz-Antey Concern VKO, and my boss was a person who himself participated in the calculation of this job. This is from his words. The remains of AMRAAMs were shown in a report from the streets of Kyiv, it is not difficult to distinguish an air missile from a KR or a three hundredth, although they tried to pass it off as a KR. I saw this myself on your "UA First" as part of a marathon, somewhere in early December. There is such a sin, sometimes I watch Schumer TV on smart. You are right that you don’t watch Schumer TV, when I still went to you, after a day of viewing (episodic) I was stupefied by information, the way it was presented and the behavior of your officials in public.
                    We know how to fight, we don’t know how to fight, it’s a moot point, but if the Americans report about 10 people who are irrevocable near Bakhmut, then we probably know how, it just doesn’t give a CBO, but I’m afraid that this won’t be for long. You know how to get it, and then yell "What are we for?"
                    Stay healthy. Take care of yourself, sane people are needed in Ukraine too.
                    By the way, I myself am from the Kyiv region, and my wife is generally a Ukrainian.
                    1. +2
                      12 December 2022 16: 07
                      Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                      he himself participated in the calculation of this work

                      Again. I don't believe the Soviet test data in general and the kitchen retelling in particular. Just as I do not believe the statements of the Ukrainian authorities that "air defense shot down 95 missiles out of 100." As you said there, the state of energy and the military-industrial complex ...
                      Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                      "UA First" as part of the marathon, somewhere in early December

                      That is, I have to believe it from the words of an anonymous person on the Internet?
                      Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                      but if the Americans report about 10 people irretrievable near Bakhmut

                      Do they report? Actually, you demonstrate your price as an "expert" quite clearly, despite the fact that you seem to own special terms.
                      1. -1
                        13 December 2022 11: 47
                        To believe, not to believe, it’s not for me, it’s for the church to the priest (you can go to the OCU, you can go to the UOC, if not all of them have been imprisoned or destroyed yet). For example, in 1987 (if memory serves), I myself personally supervised the provision of test firing of the MiG-31 and Su-27. The MiG then in several passes brought down 4 La-17s at the same time, then 2 RM-207s (the so-called "Shooting at Nike Hercules"), then 2 KR, one at 100 m, the second at 12 m. And that's all I I saw it personally with my own eyes, on my indicator, right up to the launches and flight of missiles. Is this also a kitchen retelling? Then I do not know....
                        About "UA First", you can easily roll back TV on the network to 25, 26.11. There, your Antonina Gerashchenko (a creature of the third sex, or a queer?) flaunted, showing an allegedly "downed" missile launcher (or hit "civilians"), it seems at the central control room of DTEK, and by the characteristic signs of the construction of the projectile it was clear that this was an aircraft missile . The question is where from? The "Ghost" does not seem to fly anymore, the ace who shot down Geranium, it seems, is also on the ground, isn't it AMRAAM?
                        About losses, here is the link https://www.topnews.ru/news_id_625525.html. I think that The Daily Telegraph (it's true that they are shaved, I was somewhat mistaken) is an authority for you, or have they also sold out to Putin?
                        And lastly, I’m not just “... it’s kind of like owning special terms ...”, I know what they mean, how and where they are applied, and have operated and applied them for a significant part of my life, but here you have an approach to the topic, well very scholastic, superficial and biased. I understand you in some way: the influence of the environment (Ukrainianism), the main ideologeme “On over use”, and “Bez moskali v rozberemos” driven into the head, etc., and I don’t blame you, I myself watched your TV in 2018 and almost freaked out.
                        Stay healthy. Take care of yourself, sane people are needed in Ukraine, because not everything is lost yet ..
                      2. 0
                        13 December 2022 13: 43
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        https://www.topnews.ru/news_id_625525.html

                        Yes Yes. And after the lies that are checked in two clicks, I have to believe the amazing stories about your TV? Or would you like me to watch it myself? Well, the Mig-31 working on the air defense system is, of course, outrageous.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        Or did they sell out to Putin too?

                        They just never wrote it. By the way, the link to the website of this newspaper looks like this.
                        https://www.telegraph.co.uk/russia-ukraine-war/
                      3. -1
                        13 December 2022 20: 09
                        Of course, I messed up with the link, I gave a link to the resource, but here is a link to the article, you can see: https://news.rambler.ru/army/49851002-the-daily-telegraph-poteri-vsu-pod-artemovskom-prevyshayut- 10-tysyach-boytsov/, I didn't go to Daly's site, I studied French, my English is almost zero. But my lack of knowledge of English does not mean at all that Daly did not write it. Read on, young man, and draw your own conclusions. You, as I understand it, are a polyglot, especially since English will soon become your second state language.
                        As for TV, you know as well as I do that you can roll back TV on the network to the specified broadcast date and watch it, but this is your business. Maybe laziness, or maybe stubbornness (this is not perseverance, I think you understand)
                        Now about the MiG-31 and SAM (not SAM, namely SAM). It turns out that you don’t know much, but this does not mean that what you have no idea about does not exist or did not exist. During the Arab-Israeli conflicts, there was a war with Syria and the destruction by Israel of an air defense group in the Bekaa Valley. The group was called Feda. One of the Israeli F-14s, with a Phoenix missile (I don’t remember the numbers, but not the essence), shot down the S-200 air defense system fired at it. We decided to repeat this experience. MiG-31 crews were being trained from the center in Savasleyk. The shooting was carried out at Sary-Shagan, the command post was on the 7th site, I, with the calculation of the RTV from 84 RTP and the guidance point from the center, were at the position of Tyulpan-4 (1st site). The shooting was carried out at the RM-207 rocket, this is a rocket of the S-25 complex, converted into a target. One Rm-207 MiG shot down immediately, she didn’t even have time to gasp, and the second, after being hit, crawled out of the explosion cloud and went a different course from the firing zone, A command was issued for self-destruction. This shooting was called "Shooting at Nike Hercules." I saw all this personally, on the RLC 5N87 indicator in the "I" cockpit. Believe it or not, your own business, but I know how it was. There is no point in lying to me, especially since there are people on the network, and maybe on the VO website with whom I served and they will understand who I am. I don't want to embarrass myself by lying. Although I lived in Ukraine, I am still Russian. My friend, who was part of the calculation of the S-300PMU division, who conducted test firing at the same range, but from a different site, I even know from which one, but I won’t tell you, you’ll still pretend to be Stanislavsky, knows “how it was” . Something like this .. You can write some other shit, I'll answer. I didn't get sick. Stay healthy. Tip: read more, read all the books, the web, scientific materials. It heals from "Ukrainianism".
                      4. 0
                        15 December 2022 12: 12
                        And where do you share it? Has the electricity run out? Not from the use of intensive air defense systems? Here the other day I saw your comments on naval topics. So are you special in the Navy? The same as in air defense? The role of Stanislavsky suits you very well. Well, I already wrote about this.
                        Only in response to me to be rude, in the style of "Ukrainianism" is not necessary, I do not like this (warning). Yes, by the way, in the VO there are materials of hackers on the missing servicemen of the Armed Forces of Ukraine 35,3 K. people. Read.
                      5. 0
                        16 December 2022 16: 27
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        And where do you go

                        Think you're an interesting conversationalist?
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        materials of hackers on missing servicemen of the Armed Forces of Ukraine 35,3 K

                        Do you think "hackers" have more faith than you? By the way, I am outraged by Zelensky's decision to keep his losses secret - this is insulting to the Ukrainians. You should not be like the leadership of the Russian Federation.

                        However, this is an internal Ukrainian issue. It doesn't concern you.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        Of course, I messed up with the link, I gave a link to the resource, but here is the link to the article, you can see: https://news.rambler.ru

                        I see you have systematic problems with links.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        Or did they sell out to Putin too?

                        Yes, Rambler sold out to Putin 15 years ago.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        But my lack of knowledge of English does not mean at all that Daly did not write this.

                        Your lack of knowledge of English and the inability to use a translator in the browser does not allow you to refer to English-language sources. So it’s not DT that writes, but Rambler writes.

                        And it's easy to find out if Rambler is lying or not. When entering "they and these write that" there should be a link to the original text. Rambler does not provide such a link. So it's definitely a lie.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        As for TV, you know as well as I do that you can roll back TV on the network to the specified broadcast date

                        I am NOT going to look for confirmation of your words. If you have something to show, show it.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        I, with the calculation of RTV from 84 RTP

                        I see no point in discussing the amazing stories from your life. I can't verify them, and I'm not going to take your word for it.
                      6. +1
                        16 December 2022 17: 12
                        laughing
                        Funny story.
                        During the Arab-Israeli conflicts, there was a war with Syria and the destruction by Israel of an air defense group in the Bekaa Valley. The group was called Feda. One of the Israeli F-14s, with a Phoenix missile (I don’t remember the numbers, but not the essence), shot down the S-200 air defense system fired at it.

                        Israel has never had F14s or Phoenixes. F14 was considered, but F15 looked better.

                        You already take care of your interlocutor with his charming stories, let him write further.
                        Think you're an interesting conversationalist?
                        - don't upset him, pure honey of his story...
                      7. 0
                        16 December 2022 18: 04
                        And here you are wrong. It was Israel who had the F-14s with Phoenixes in the ground version, and it was they who participated in the destruction of air defense in the Bekaa Valley, along with other types of aircraft. Find the Wiki article Operation "Medvedka 19" and read what types participated in the battles in the BEKAA area. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it didn't happen.
                      8. +2
                        16 December 2022 19: 58
                        laughing
                        Thanks for checking out the wiki! Fun reading, just right for Friday!
                        About Phoenixes, you, IMHO, write something that is not even on Wiki.
                        And the source about F14 on Wiki is Abu Jihad, who "raised his eyes up"
                        So, Vicki:Abu Jihad (Dayab Abu Jahya) - a native of Lebanon and a former Hamas activist, - head of the Arab European League (AEL):
                        Everyone looked into the air. I also looked up and saw one of the most breathtaking sights I have ever seen. Directly above our heads, a battle of hundreds of fighters unfolded. Israeli air attacks have never done us significant damage, but this time it was not about bombing: the fight was between Israeli and Syrian fighters. Israel bombarded Syrian missiles stationed in the Bekaa Valley, and now Syrian fighters were trying to prevent the Israelis from destroying the remnants of Syrian air defenses. A very tragic picture was unfolding before our eyes. Israeli fighter jets were shooting down the Syrian planes one by one like flies, and the support of the Joint Armed Forces from the ground was useless. The Zionists had modern F-14s, F-15s and F-16s at their disposal
                        ".
                        In general, Abu Jihad and "Viktor Nikolaevich" are more fun together!

                        And from Vicki, "G.P. Yashkin, the chief military adviser in the armed forces of Syria, the commander of a group of Soviet military specialists in Syria, is in a hurry to join your pair:
                        In this war, the Israelis created a well-functioning and modern electronic warfare system. Electronic warfare equipment was installed even on tanks laughing , ships, not to mention combat aircraft, and even more so special ones, such as the Boeing 707, S-97 fool Hawkeye, Phantom (AF-4ji)."

                        In general, sadness.
                        The Soviet government not only helped Abu Jihad, which he saw in the heights of F14 (forgivable him). She also kept G. P. Yashkin, who saw the Zionist electronic warfare on tanks and ships, he had Hokai C97, he almost guessed about the name of the Phantom. And she, the Soviet government, fed a certain character in the air defense (we will not point fingers), who still does not know the technique of a potential enemy - and does not want to know, persists.
                        It was on such subjects that the Soviet government failed.

                        Just in case, I inform you that today I will destroy at least 5 (five) B52s "personally" and "in a group" to please you. Or maybe it will come to B53 ...
                        Maybe I will even be awarded as an ace! soldier
                      9. 0
                        17 December 2022 14: 34
                        Did the "representative of the little Africans" hand me over to you on shift, or are you sitting next to the shift in Brovary? Rumors that I left you are greatly exaggerated, and you can use your miserable humor for its intended purpose. I hope you know how?
                        The fact that you scoff here does not add to your knowledge. I know exactly what happened and how. I definitely saw with my own eyes how the MiG destroyed the RM-207. But it seems that you and the "representative of little Africans" were not even in the project at that time. You can still practice wit, from this you will not look smarter. I then, by the simplicity of my soul, thought that I was communicating with experts in the field of air defense. It turns out ordinary amateurs, with perverted concepts, working for money. And what can you expect from diggers of the seas? Everything is as usual: no mind, no honor. Have fun young people. God is not a fraer, he remembers everything and sees everything. I think it will come back soon.
                        For now, one question. Here (https://dzen.ru/a/Y51-f2IaShVTTuGw?share_to=telegram) your deputy with the original surname Sapozhko talks about "disasters" in Brovary. Hence the question, have you already been given water? And how, I'm embarrassed to ask, does the sewer work? Or do you continue to shit in bags (according to the advice of your leaders)? Have you equipped a latrine in your TsIPSO or continue to shit on the streets? Brovary is not a very decent city anyway, so you will make it even worse..dirt it. Take care of nature and the city, "compatriots"!
                        And now I can tell you that this is the last comment on your bowel movements. Disgusting!
                      10. The comment was deleted.
                      11. The comment was deleted.
                      12. +2
                        16 December 2022 18: 22
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        here you are wrong. It was Israel who had the F-14s with Phoenixes in the ground version

                        You see how inconvenient it is when your cat-lamp stories can be verified. Whether it's about the MiG-31 to tell. October by the fire.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        Promised. I do

                        Not worth the trouble.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        say "goodbye" to the interlocutor

                        It is unlikely that you will enjoy a date with me. Or vice versa, it happens to me too.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        you are not such a professional in air defense

                        I have nothing to do with air defense at work. I will say more, I never comment on the Internet on issues in the field that I am professionally engaged in.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        If you don’t know something, or you don’t like what they write,

                        I really appreciate conversations that somehow refute my usual picture of the world. However, you seem incapable of having such a conversation.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        It's not unpleasant that your "heroes" keep loss data secret (this is a worldwide practice)

                        No, not all. The country owes something to its soldiers. In particular, keep the memory of them, each of them. Again, this is not about Russia.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        Why didn't you post the full link?

                        Which link? From your post? Do you think someone reads my messages, but not yours?

                        Did you follow the rambler link yourself? Where does it lead?
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        So there is a similar article on both VO and Lenta

                        Two more English newspapers. Which did not sell out to Putin.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        something I have not seen an official refutation from your generals

                        Should generals refute VO and Lenta? Who do you take them for?
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        I try to believe some media (Rambler is not one of them

                        That is, you made some statement and gave it a link to a source that you do not believe? The controversy is clearly not yours.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        but I didn't sign up. provide you with information

                        Yes Yes. I must take your word for it.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        I could say how you could check my words. Several people with whom I served live in Kyiv

                        Do you really think that I will run around Kyiv and look for someone? And handing over to the Gestapo is always a good idea, I won’t argue.
                        Quote: gjkrjdybr50
                        This is my last comment to you. I won't write to you anymore.

                        God bless. Be there.
                      13. +1
                        16 December 2022 20: 19
                        It is a pity that the air defense officer left us so untimely ...
                        The time has come for unforgettable stories: "It was Israel who had the F-14s with Phoenixes in the ground version, and it was they who participated in the destruction of air defense in the Bekaa Valley, along with other types of aircraft."

                        And then the Zionists moved to the Bekaa Valley F14 in the ground version ... but with Phoenixes ... That's what I understand - a psychic attack!
                        Interestingly, did F14 move along the ground in a line or in a column?

                        And in general, these were Oscar EV secret planes, here is a video proof:
                      14. 0
                        27 January 2023 12: 57
                        Thank you gentlemen Wildcat and Negro for the performance, I haven’t laughed so loud for a long time
  13. +5
    2 December 2022 09: 38
    AWACS aircraft flying in Poland and Romania cannot see a fighter-sized aircraft further than 350-400 km. And to the Dnieper from there is already 500-odd. From the Black Sea - similarly. And we don’t see any actions justifying the word Operational in the name of operational-tactical aviation on the left bank
    There are no real-time satellite images. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    On the other hand, the A-50 dangling in the sky of Belarus is able to see the entire memory.
    1. +6
      2 December 2022 10: 45
      Quote: Vlad2012
      AWACS aircraft flying in Poland and Romania cannot see a fighter-sized aircraft further than 350-400 km. And to the Dnieper from there is already 500-odd. From the Black Sea - similarly.

      So recently there was an article by Bongo on the topic of Ukrainian air defense, where the issues of detection and target designation by means of the NATO Allied Command from NATO territory and from neutral waters were analyzed. And yes - they do not reach most of the theater.
      1. +1
        2 December 2022 16: 15
        Do not read. Poke, pliz, with your finger where she is
        1. +2
          2 December 2022 20: 21
          hi
          https://topwar.ru/203441-istrebitelnaja-aviacija-ukrainy.html
          At the end of the article, active links to radars, air defense systems and more. The most sensible and complete analysis.
          1. -1
            12 December 2022 11: 13
            In this article there is nothing about the air defense of Ukraine and the questions "... detection and target designation by means of the NATO Allied Command from NATO territory and from neutral waters ...". Do not mislead people, the article is purely about the state of "square" aviation.
  14. -4
    2 December 2022 10: 33
    I looked at something Western "comrades" - the losses of our aviation over the past 1,5 months are not recorded. Looks like all the air defenses were dragged away to protect the transformer or generator by Zeleboba ... He said that the "decision-making center on the Outskirts" was the women and mother-in-law of the "cybergs". That's when they have a "warm toilet" and charging for "chats" will end, then decisions will be made. Accordingly, our front-line aviation entered the rage ...

    That's what it looks like. In the absence of logistics, all air defense will definitely be thrown to its defense. And asamses do not play against UAVs
  15. +7
    2 December 2022 10: 42
    Today, Ukrainians are using a very unpleasant tactic: SAMs do not turn on their radars and do not identify themselves. Primary data comes from American reconnaissance aircraft and from satellites that track the movements of Russian aircraft and predict their routes. And only when the distance becomes minimal, the radar should be turned on, aiming and launching the rocket. And it's very hard to get away from it. This is taken from the stories of pilots and navigators of our air regiment.

    Today!? belay
    Yes YOKLMN and other letters of the alphabet, this is the standard tactic of the ZRV. Standard! And for more than half a century!
    Since Vietnam. ZRV work in a system where targets are detected by some, and hit by others. Detection is carried out by RTV surveillance radars, RTR systems and AWACS aircraft (for those who are very lucky), data from them flows to command posts of various levels, then target designation goes to brigades / regiments and divisions. At the same time, the divisions sit like a mouse under a broom, not going on the air, after receiving the control center, the radar turns approximately in the direction of the target and is turned on, but works on the equivalent. And only when the target assigned from the command post enters the affected area, the radar switches to radiation, followed by a short search, then detection, capture, tracking, launching a pair of missiles, target and missile tracking, defeat or miss with a repeat of the cycle. Some aesthetes can generally shoot without going on the air - according to the TV / OEK sight.
    After that, the radar again switches to the equivalent - because the less the division shines on the air, the longer it lives. Ideally, after going on the air, it would be better to roll up altogether and go to a reserve position - without waiting until, according to the enemy’s RTR, which detected the radar station went on air and located its approximate position, corrected and guided munitions arrive at this position.
  16. +5
    2 December 2022 11: 11
    10 km in range, 6 km in height. 8 missiles are placed on one launcher. Warhead weighing 14 kg, directional. In general, something like our Thor, but it comes with a chic French thermal imager for hunting small targets.

    Crotal something like our Thor? The author clearly smoked or drank something. The article looks like "there is nothing to write about, but it is necessary to write."
    1. 0
      2 December 2022 22: 51
      The Frenchman looks more like a Shell than a Thor.
      1. +1
        3 December 2022 09: 06
        Even on Tunguska without guns. And Krotal's missiles with a single-mode remote control.
      2. 0
        29 January 2023 13: 46
        Crotal thing. With heatpacks and radars, the French have everything at the highest level.
        They wrote about the French crotal in the article, but they didn’t write about the French long-range SAMP / T, also known as mamba (with ASTER-15 and ASTER-30 missiles). There is a full-fledged air defense / missile defense system that shoots down ballistic missiles. The French and Italians have already promised it.
  17. +8
    2 December 2022 11: 13
    Some kind of non-New Year's mood in the cycle "little, late, useless." If it goes on like this, the question expect difficulties in the air or not? will refer to the work of the F-16.

    And the question is pretty pointless.
    At the beginning of the air defense events of Ukraine at the lower level - Strela-10, at the upper level - Buki and S-300 of the old series, combined into positional areas through Baikal-1 with reinforcement by additional radars, Soviet and new Ukrainian (Pelikan, ST-68U). Now, due to the exhaustion of the resource and ammunition of the Soviet air defense systems, there is a gradual transfer of Ukrainian air defense to Western materiel. The details are not so important, the essence of the message is important: people who were waiting that one fine day for the Aerospace Forces the air defense would simply end and it would be possible to bomb with cast iron in the Syrian style will not wait.
  18. -2
    2 December 2022 11: 32
    It is necessary to immediately begin to supply in response to all the enemies of the United States everything they want. For only the included answer will force the presumptuous West to somehow slow down. Putin's tolstoyism will definitely lead us all to a global war ..
    1. 0
      2 December 2022 12: 03
      To whom and what do you propose to supply and how will this affect support for Ukraine? And why do you think that Putin is a "Tolstoyan"?
    2. +2
      2 December 2022 22: 23
      ... to supply everyone)) .... to cover your ass at least sad
  19. 0
    2 December 2022 11: 34
    i.e. antiquity. However, antiquity is disgusting

    Yes, not so ancient. SAM MIM-23B "Hawk" Phase III appeared in 1989.
    Obviously not S-125. Rather Beech M2 by age.
  20. +4
    2 December 2022 11: 45
    An article for a newspaper like Komsomolskaya Pravda. The numbers are pulled from somewhere, from somewhere the names. All this is mixed with empty phrases. To not be unfounded. IRIS-T and NASAMS have already arrived and have already been used, there are statements and photos. And why did the author take that in IRIS the Swedish "Giraffe" and not the German TRML-4D? And these are different radars with different characteristics. In general, an empty article and boring.
  21. 0
    2 December 2022 11: 45
    We have old rockets that need to be disposed of, but which can still fly? So let them go in the direction of the enemy, developing a supply of ITS missiles. Given the cost of anti-aircraft missiles, this will be the most profitable way to dispose.
  22. +2
    2 December 2022 12: 10
    “At the same time, a special air operation to suppress precisely the air defense systems of the Russian Aerospace Forces was not carried out”

    If this is true, then the one who planned the NWO would need to be shot in front of the formation for a start.
    1. 0
      2 December 2022 12: 41
      Quote from solar
      If this is true, then the one who planned the NWO would need to be shot in front of the formation for a start.

      To be honest, I thought that they would do it back in April ...
    2. Lad
      +3
      2 December 2022 23: 04
      Yeah, grapes are sour because you can't get them. And the operation was "not carried out" because nothing happened. And they left the Serpentine because "an act of good will." And so it can go on for a long time. Believe less what is written.
  23. +5
    2 December 2022 13: 58
    The issue here is numbers. 150% that PAC-3 does not shine for Ukrainians, but PAC-2 is quite a good long-range air defense system.

    This passage alone suggests that the author is writing about a subject that he has absolutely no idea about.
    MIM-104F (PAC-3) is an exclusively anti-missile system, an element of a multi-level missile defense system. The first level is AEGIS missiles designed to destroy ballistic missiles in space. The second is the THAAD missile defense system. The third is the Patriot PAC-3. Therefore, Ukraine simply does not need it.
    And the Patriot PAC-2 is a versatile air defense system. MIM-104C missiles are "sharpened" for aircraft and cruise missiles, GEM-T - for ballistic missiles. That is, by simply replacing the launch container, the complex turns from an air defense system into a missile defense system and vice versa.
    1. +3
      3 December 2022 01: 03
      Quote from Baker
      This passage alone suggests that the author is writing about a subject that he has absolutely no idea about.

      The author is unique. Do you represent the subject?
      Quote from Baker
      this is an exclusively anti-missile system, an element of a multi-level missile defense system. ...Therefore, Ukraine simply does not need it.

      In what strange world does the lack of protection against IRBMs and ICBMs make protection against OTRK useless? Ukrainians are worried about Iskanders, not Poplars yet.
      1. 0
        3 December 2022 09: 13
        Quote: Negro
        Ukrainians are worried about Iskanders, not Poplars yet.

        Iskander does not use ballistic missiles.
        1. +1
          3 December 2022 11: 10
          Quote: Comet
          Iskander does not use ballistic missiles

          But quasi-ballistic ones are used. From a missile defense point of view, it doesn't matter.
          1. -1
            4 December 2022 13: 37
            Quote: Negro
            Quote: Comet
            Iskander does not use ballistic missiles

            But quasi-ballistic ones are used. From a missile defense point of view, it doesn't matter.

            You wrote ignorant nonsense about missile defense. What for? Moreover, Iskander-M has non-ballistic flight paths.
            1. +1
              4 December 2022 14: 32
              Quote: Comet
              Moreover, Iskander-M has non-ballistic flight paths

              It has no bearing on the issue at hand. It is believed that Iskander is a more difficult target than a conventional OTRK of such a range, that's all.
              1. -1
                4 December 2022 14: 47
                Quote: Negro
                Quote: Comet
                Moreover, Iskander-M has non-ballistic flight paths

                It has no bearing on the issue at hand. It is believed that Iskander is a more difficult target than a conventional OTRK of such a range, that's all.

                You write nonsense. What for? Anti-missile guidance is based on the hypothesis of the ballistic movement of the target. If the trajectory is in fact non-ballistic, then a pointing error occurs, resulting in a miss.
                1. +2
                  4 December 2022 15: 06
                  Quote: Comet
                  Anti-missile guidance is based on the hypothesis of ballistic target movement

                  You see, making hypotheses is not what is required of a missile defense system. She is required to bring the anti-missile teams to the target capture distance of the AGSN. Everything, nothing more.
                  1. -1
                    4 December 2022 15: 26
                    Quote: Negro
                    You see, making hypotheses is not what is required of a missile defense system. She is required to bring the anti-missile teams to the target capture distance of the AGSN. Everything, nothing more.

                    Do you have a bullshit generator turned on? Guidance of missiles in the missile defense system works precisely in the hypothesis of the ballistic movement of the target.
                    1. +2
                      4 December 2022 15: 52
                      Quote: Comet
                      Guidance of missiles in the missile defense system works precisely in the hypothesis of the ballistic movement of the target.

                      You see, you are confusing targeting anti-aircraft artillery and targeting anti-aircraft missiles. Especially such as Irint.
  24. -3
    2 December 2022 13: 59
    Quote: Negro

    The Patriot performed well. ZR traditional design against ballistic missiles gave the effectiveness of more than 50%.


    High efficiency - not less than 90%.
    And 50% in almost polygon conditions, in the absence of any opposition - chickens laugh.


    Quote: Negro

    Take an interest in the real, and not Konashenkov's, effectiveness of the S-300PMU against the same Scud. The year before last, such an experiment was carried out in Azerbaijan. I note that the Azerbaijanis are perhaps the most intelligent and trained army of the CIS.


    Yes, of course, where are we, gray-footed to tangerine-eaters. Me too, good reason. You would have dragged the President of Armenia, this little sucker.

    Quote: Negro

    Drawn to the ears. Just according to the standard, 2 missiles are sent to the target. Doesn't make sense anymore.


    Yes, if the air defense system works as it should. Otherwise, you still have to shoot missiles. The Yankees have 4 missiles (on average) per target and only 50% damage. Epic fail.

    Quote: Negro

    In fact, everything is easier. For such purposes, even a patriot is not needed.


    That's what the "Patriots" of the Saudis so "simply" worked out.

    Quote: Negro

    And they don't need to. They must always be where the target is. Air defense at the national level is also a quantitative problem.


    There is an air defense of the country, and there is an army air defense. Do not confuse one with the other. And cover objects are not always stationary.
    Covering everything with air defense systems, and even a large radius, is definitely not for Ukraine.

    In short, they stupidly put Ukrainians on money, slipping another portion of junk. It is the Ukrainians who naively think that everything is given to them for nothing. The time will come - you have to work out. At the Yankees, every cent is nailed with a dollar nail.
    1. +3
      3 December 2022 01: 57
      Quote: Illanatol
      High efficiency - not less than 90%.

      High efficiency - this is higher than that of analogues. At the beginning of the 90s, only the S-300P (not PMU) was an analogue.
      Quote: Illanatol
      And 50% in almost polygon conditions

      Combat conditions differ from polygon conditions in that they are combat, my friend. Actually, the Patriot is the only existing missile defense system that has significant experience in combat use.
      Quote: Illanatol
      Yes, of course, where are we, gray-footed to tangerine-eaters

      I am glad that you are realistic about the RF Armed Forces. You rarely see.
      Quote: Illanatol
      You would have dragged the President of Armenia, this little sucker.

      Armenia played for Saddam in that experiment. Allies of Russia after all.
      Quote: Illanatol
      Otherwise, you still have to shoot missiles. Yankee - 4 missiles (average) per target

      Yes, at least 50. OTP is not the goal for which you need to save ZR.
      Quote: Illanatol
      only 50% defeat

      Maybe less, no one did any special investigations there.
      Quote: Illanatol
      Epic fail.

      Excellent result. And most importantly, they made the right conclusions on the development of the system.
      Quote: Illanatol
      That's what the "Patriots" of the Saudis so "simply" worked out

      Are you talking about stories with Yemeni / Iranian shahid mopeds? This is what we are talking about, that there are questions not to the patriots, but to the air defense of the near zone.
      Quote: Illanatol
      And cover objects are not always stationary.

      Fortunately for Ukraine, they don’t really need serious military air defense with such an adversary. And the rear objects are covered precisely by the object air defense.
      Quote: Illanatol
      and even a large radius

      A large radius is not needed.
      Quote: Illanatol
      In short, they stupidly put Ukrainians on money, slipping another portion of junk

      It's hard to think of a more delusional argument. For reasons beyond Ukraine's control, deliveries of Russian-made air defenses are extremely limited - even if they weren't rubbish 30 years old.
      1. -1
        3 December 2022 09: 12
        Quote: Negro
        Combat conditions differ from polygon conditions in that they are combat, my friend. Actually, the Patriot is the only existing missile defense system that has significant experience in combat use.

        No. The conditions for the use of the Patriot were even more "greenhouse" than the landfill. There was no interference or fire impact on the Patriot when it was used.
        1. +2
          3 December 2022 11: 17
          Quote: Comet
          The conditions for using the Patriot were even more "greenhouse" than the landfill

          You see. Combat conditions differ from field conditions in that the result "all conditional targets are conditionally hit" is for some reason of no interest to anyone. And very few people can show other results, all of a sudden.
          1. 0
            4 December 2022 13: 25
            Quote: Negro
            Quote: Comet
            The conditions for using the Patriot were even more "greenhouse" than the landfill

            You see. Combat conditions differ from field conditions in that the result "all conditional targets are conditionally hit" is for some reason of no interest to anyone. And very few people can show other results, all of a sudden.

            Do you see. In range conditions, there is no "all targets are conditionally hit." For example, at the final stage of development of the S-300PM, this air defense system reflected a simultaneous raid of 20 targets under the cover of interference. 40 missiles were launched and all the targets were physically destroyed, in the trash. The Chinese successfully shot the S-400 at those of their missiles that their air defense systems are not affected. And the S-300V at one time successfully shot at targets more difficult than Pershing. Patriot "in real combat operations" worked on single objects in the complete absence of interference. In 1993, the Americans refused the proposal to arrange a "shootout" with complexes. And with the complication of the target situation in the case in Saudi Arabia, Patriot could not do anything at all. All these well-known results may be of no interest only to propagandists of the corresponding orientation.
            1. 0
              4 December 2022 14: 21
              Quote: Comet
              For example, at the final stage of development of the S-300PM, this air defense system reflected a simultaneous raid of 20 targets under the cover of interference. 40 missiles were launched and all targets were physically destroyed, in the trash

              Yes Yes. We have already heard this from the Konashenkovs many times. In practice, we have what we have.
              Quote: Comet
              The proposal in 1993 to arrange a "shootout" with complexes, the Americans refused

              Why do they need it? Everything that they were interested in about the S-300, they knew for a long time in the 93rd year.
              Quote: Comet
              with the complication of the target situation in the case in Saudi Arabia, Patriot could not do anything at all.

              According to the statements of the Yemeni Konashenkovs.
              1. -1
                4 December 2022 15: 13
                Quote: Negro
                Quote: Comet
                For example, at the final stage of development of the S-300PM, this air defense system reflected a simultaneous raid of 20 targets under the cover of interference. 40 missiles were launched and all targets were physically destroyed, in the trash

                Yes Yes. We have already heard this from the Konashenkovs many times. In practice, we have what we have.

                In practice, we have the fact that the Patriot squints in primitive conditions. And with the S-300PM, what do we have in practice?

                Quote: Negro
                Quote: Comet
                The proposal in 1993 to arrange a "shootout" with complexes, the Americans refused

                Why do they need it? Everything that they were interested in about the S-300, they knew for a long time in the 93rd year.

                Firstly, they saw him for the first time and did not know anything about him. And secondly, they were simply afraid to compare in those realities.

                Quote: Negro
                Quote: Comet
                with the complication of the target situation in the case in Saudi Arabia, Patriot could not do anything at all.

                According to the statements of the Yemeni Konashenkovs.

                There was nothing the Patriots in Saudi Arabia could do in that raid. Oil production has more than halved.
  25. The comment was deleted.
  26. 0
    2 December 2022 17: 51
    Why didn't the author mention Cheetah - a very good short-range air defense system?
  27. 0
    2 December 2022 19: 37
    Does manned aviation even have a future?)
    1. -2
      2 December 2022 20: 13
      Switching to stealth aircraft is not in vain.
      1. 0
        2 December 2022 21: 28
        The prospects are very alarming, during the winter the Western friends of Ukraine will supply them with cheap analogues of the same Geranium and they will be able to massively launch them anywhere, even to Donetsk, even to Belgorod, and then it’s easier to bring drones than heavy equipment., over this. need to think today
        1. 0
          2 December 2022 21: 37
          "they have cheap analogues of the same Geranium" ///
          ----
          Iranian Geranium is the cheapest in its class.
          From long-range drones.
          The Armed Forces of Ukraine received one type of kamikaze drones from the USA.
          Switchblade 300 - short range, 20 km.
          They are going to put Switchblade 600, up to 100 km.
          But the Ukrainians have developed their own drone, similar to Geranium.
          For several hundred kilometers.
          There was already a trial single strike on an oil depot in Russia.
          Hit an empty tank.
  28. -2
    3 December 2022 01: 57
    With such technology at its disposal, the West can afford to slowly but steadily swallow Russia like a rabbit boa. It is clear that over time, all this goodness will begin to shoot at everything that flies in the sky of Ukraine, and our aviation, including Caliber and Iranian drones, will be forced to stay at home. Therefore, we will definitely lose Ukraine, and together with it we will lose Russia ...

    ... if we continue to fight at the level of conventional weapons. Our possible salvation lies only in our strategic nuclear weapons and in the determination to use them on some NATO territory.

    I would recommend Polish Rzeszow.
    To start.
    And there it will be seen.
  29. +2
    3 December 2022 02: 58
    Bongo had much more detailed and interesting publications on this topic.
  30. -1
    3 December 2022 09: 04
    Quote: Negro
    High efficiency - this is higher than that of analogues. At the beginning of the 90s, the only analogue was the S-300P


    No. High efficiency - the ability to solve the problem of covering the object.
    So the object is not covered by such an "effective" complex - it is destroyed by 1 (one) missile.
    The object is covered by a "50% complex" - it is destroyed by 2 (two) missiles. That's all "efficiency".

    Quote: Negro
    Actually, the Patriot is the only existing missile defense system that has significant experience in combat use.


    1. This is an air defense system, not missile defense.
    2. Not the only one.
    3. Experience - with a minus sign.

    Quote: Negro
    I am glad that you are realistic about the RF Armed Forces


    Look up the meaning of the word "sarcasm" in the dictionary.

    Quote: Negro
    Are you talking about stories with Yemeni / Iranian shahid mopeds? This is what we are talking about, that there are questions not to the patriots, but to the air defense of the near zone


    Which did not appear.
    So Ukroreykh needs really mobile small-range air defense systems, and not this rubbish.

    Quote: Negro
    Fortunately for Ukraine, they don’t really need serious military air defense with such an adversary. And the rear objects are covered precisely by the object air defense.


    Only in your perpendicular reality. Well, let them carry out a few more mobilizations, fertilizing the Russian land with their carcasses.

    The rest of the verbal diarrhea is not worth commenting.
    1. +1
      4 December 2022 00: 54
      At the end of each message there is a "reply" button, you can use it.
      Quote: Illanatol
      No. High efficiency - the ability to solve the tasks of covering the object

      And what was wrong with the objects in the 91st? Did you get into the barracks once? It happens.
      Quote: Illanatol
      The object is covered by a "50% complex" - it is destroyed by 2 (two) missiles. That's all "efficiency".

      R-17 can only get into an object by accident, just like Tochka. But yes, one missile will be shot down, the second will not come out, the third will fall on a neighboring city and kill 10 or 100 random people. This is how missile defense works, welcome to the real world.
      Quote: Illanatol
      1. This is an air defense system, not missile defense.
      2. Not the only one.
      3. Experience - with a minus sign

      This is an air defense complex converted into missile defense. Already in the 60s, when developing new complexes, the task was to protect against OTRK.
      2. The only one. When / if the former brothers have 300-kilometer missiles, it will be possible to look at the capabilities of the S-400 and Buk3M. S-300PMU crap (as far as it is known). Aster, David's Sling, THAAD and the sailors worked only on targets.
      3. In 2003 and beyond, it proved to be very good, the operators have no complaints other than the insane cost.
      Quote: Illanatol
      Which did not appear

      It turned out. That refinery was guarded by Crotali and Oerlikon SkyGuard. What were the operators smoking at work - a question for the Saudis. Until recently, the Saudis were the world's biggest laughingstock in terms of the stupid use of expensive weapons. Now in second place.
      Quote: Illanatol
      Ukroreykh needs really mobile small-range air defense systems, and not this rubbish

      Ukraine needs anything. For cruise missiles and shahid mopeds, any air defense is suitable, starting with the modernized ZU-23-2, but very serious systems are needed against the Isanders. There are few of them in the world and PAK-3 is one of them - with a large margin the most massive.
      Quote: Illanatol
      Only in your perpendicular reality

      )))
      The US Air Force has been bolted on so much, including me, for open sabotage against ground forces, but the Russian army and its Aerospace Forces are something out of the ordinary.
      Quote: Illanatol
      Well, let them carry out a few more mobilizations, fertilizing the Russian land with their carcasses.

      )))
      Thank God, and Russia began mobilization - frankly, it managed to surprise even me.
      1. 0
        4 December 2022 13: 47
        Quote: Negro
        David's sling, THAAD and sailors worked only on targets.

        Yes, you are a complete ignoramus in the matter under discussion. David's sling worked for a real purpose. Two launches and both missiles past ..
        1. 0
          4 December 2022 14: 30
          Quote: Comet
          David's sling worked for a real purpose

          )))
          The problem with the points, both Syrian and Ukrainian, is that no one in the world can say in advance whether it will fly, if it flies, where, and if it arrives, will it explode. This is a common misfortune of any missiles with 20 years as a missed shelf life. Therefore, to determine the effectiveness of the complex, such firing is useless. There will be ataxms - we will see that in terms of efficiency.
          1. -1
            4 December 2022 14: 52
            Quote: Negro
            )))
            The problem with the points, both Syrian and Ukrainian, is that no one in the world can say in advance whether it will fly, if it flies, where, and if it arrives, will it explode. This is a common misfortune of any missiles with 20 years as a missed shelf life. Therefore, to determine the effectiveness of the complex, such firing is useless. There will be ataxms - we will see that in terms of efficiency.

            Something I did not understand this set of words. It is a well-known fact that two Slings of David were fired at two flying missiles. None of the slings of David launched hit the target.
            1. 0
              4 December 2022 15: 15
              Quote: Comet
              Known fact that two Slings of David were fired at two flying missiles

              Rumor has it that David's sling was used against unknown OTP over Syria, presumably TochekU. There were no flights to Israel, but there was also no direct defeat of the OTP, they say. So Sling, unlike Patriot, Battle Proof is not a complex.
              1. -1
                4 December 2022 15: 33
                Quote: Negro
                Quote: Comet
                Known fact that two Slings of David were fired at two flying missiles

                Rumor has it that David's sling was used against unknown OTP over Syria, presumably TochekU. There were no flights to Israel, but there was also no direct defeat of the OTP, they say. So Sling, unlike Patriot, Battle Proof is not a complex.

                Unknown or known, it doesn't matter. Two Slings of David were fired at two Point-Us. Both of David's Slings missed their target. One self-destructed, the second fell on the territory of Syria. And the Patriot was perfectly tested "battle proof" - no interference, no fire impact. And at the same time, he missed everything in Saudi Arabia. Those who organized the attack on the SA refinery knew very well what the Patriot was not capable of.
                1. 0
                  4 December 2022 15: 50
                  Quote: Comet
                  Those who organized the attack on the SA refinery knew very well what the Patriot was not capable of.

                  Well, such stories are told to us by people with "knowledge".
                  Nothing is known about the successful use of R-19 by the Houthis against the SA. This complex is not used against shahid mopeds - like the Buk / S-300/400, if the commander has a head on his shoulders.
                  Quote: Comet
                  Two Slings of David were fired at two Point-Us

                  You are retelling the wiki. And she, respectively, press releases. The sling was never used for the tasks it was supposed to do.
  31. 0
    3 December 2022 09: 16
    “At the same time, a special air operation to suppress precisely the air defense systems of the Russian Aerospace Forces was not carried out”

    For this, it is necessary that the air defense would allow a special air operation to suppress itself.
    1. 0
      3 December 2022 10: 55
      Those who were fond of modeling sports still remember records, for example, the flight range of a model in a straight line of 3010 km from 2003. Today, it is much easier for aircraft manufacturers to build such a model than it was for an amateur 20 years ago, there can be a lot of them and they can massively fly wherever their operators want , but there is no effective protection (comparable in price) and it does not seem to be expected ... at least get the old barrage balloons.
  32. 0
    4 December 2022 00: 23
    According to the results. Judge by results. If they shoot NARs from a roll-up, then the air defense is working. If the FAB went into business, then it does not work.
  33. 0
    6 December 2022 10: 02
    Yes, already tired of the evil NATO. How do avax planes track the takeoff of the same strategists? That's right, no
  34. 0
    6 December 2022 14: 01
    Quote from: FoBoss_VM
    Solution on the surface: it is necessary to make sure that all these complexes are destroyed on railway platforms on the territory of Ukraine. Destroyed for sure. Once they will be disassembled into molecules, the second time, and the third time the impudent Saxons will think why we will spend money on expensive air defense for Ukrainians if it still does not even have time to reach the front. And this applies not only to the supply of air defense, but also to BC, artillery, RSZO and all cargo for the Armed Forces. If they were immediately cut off upon arrival in Ukraine, then their flow would be extremely scarce. Who would want to send cargo knowing that it will be immediately destroyed? And how much easier it would be for our peasants on the front end and words cannot describe. But someone needs it all to reach the front intact and be used for its intended purpose. Business and nothing personal.. am

    Yes, what are you talking about? Encroach on the shrine - on "Ukrozhelzhnitsa"? Yes, business groups will tear you apart like a killer whale!
  35. 0
    6 December 2022 14: 04
    Only one thing is clear, if even with unfinished air defense on the ancient Soviet complexes, the Wehrmacht landed our aircraft, then with such air defense systems, especially SLM IRIS-T, they will generally force it to get away from the theater, because the small number of our fleet turns every loss into an irreparable , causing severe damage to the combat capability of air units. And with the saturation of the Wehrmacht's coming out with the air defense systems listed in the article, the sky over the Reich's coming out will become deadly for any aircraft.
  36. 0
    7 December 2022 00: 44
    Combat is bookkeeping in many ways. Any "prodigy" can be destroyed by the overload method. The only question is the price. the Americans already understand this well, therefore they are trying to reduce the cost of their main striking force of the Tomahawk as much as possible, making them generally out of plastic wherever possible. And it is clear that aviation must be protected. Therefore, we are waiting for the appearance of the Okhotnik strike UAV, which is naturally cheaper than conventional VKS aircraft and should take on the strike role in the air defense coverage area. I think the author is right when he says that already from 2023 the configuration of hostilities will change, unless, of course, the declared types of weapons go to the troops. The toolkit is now clear to the hedgehog, should be extensive and varied. From "penny" loitering ammunition, to hypersonic missiles and modern strike UAVs. Again, let us recall the Patriotic War and various German "prodigies". All the same, the outcome was decided by the mass production and the relative "simplicity" (cheapness) of weapons. Although the technical potential of Germany's weapons was impressive. Let me remind you of cruise missiles, and guided bombs, radars on airplanes, and much more.
  37. 0
    8 December 2022 07: 05
    Slightly off-topic, but I can't help but share an observation. Increasingly, articles are published where they write "in Ukraine" and not "in Ukraine." What's this? Coincidence? Or part of a large information campaign aimed at some incomprehensible goals? Or maybe very understandable?
    1. The comment was deleted.
  38. 0
    9 December 2022 05: 04
    That is why it is necessary to destroy all these "gifts" as soon as they come to the territory of Ukraine. It is necessary to take aim and shoot the west of Ukraine.
  39. +1
    11 December 2022 21: 16
    Didn't want to get into a highly intellectual srach, but I have to.
    Let's look at the problems of using the indicated air defense systems and other wunderwaffe from the point of view of combat use, and not the propaganda that Mr. Skomorokhov arranged once again.
    1. When citing the performance characteristics of systems, especially the parameters of the ZP, it would be nice to indicate the heights for which the boundaries of the ZP are given. One example, for the "Garbage truck": for a target of the KR type, the target detection range along the radio horizon is 53,6 km with a flight altitude of 100 m and an RCS of 1 m2, with an RCS of 0,5, the range is about 40 - 42 km. not 100 km. The same is true for an aircraft, when flying at H = 1000m, the range will be about 140 km, and at an altitude of 100 m, it will be about 60 km. For other systems, the picture is the same. And that's without considering the terrain.
    2. NATO reconnaissance systems provide reconnaissance information; for firing air defense systems, combat information is needed. What is the difference? The answer is simple, accuracy. And the shooting process is not as primitive as Skomorokhov thinks: he received information, AIMED and fired. So, according to combat information, the missile guidance station is displayed in the corners in the target location area, a range strobe is formed at the target location range and after that a high one is turned on (this is a big simplification, but it will do for us). After turning on the high, the target should be in the area of ​​\u300b\uXNUMXbthe space limited by the strobes at the corners and range, but it may not be there, there are enough reasons for this, take my word for it. So, what is next? Further, a search is carried out in extended zones, and after the target is detected (which is far from a fact), a capture is made for escort. All this takes time and not a little. But this is all a saying, the fairy tale is, but how to enter this combat information into the air defense system? From a piece of paper or from a photo it will not work, you need an automated command post that converts the coordinates of AWACS, satellite, etc. to the coordinates of the air defense system. I don't know if this has been decided, but there are doubts. It is not a fact that the systems exchange in the same language and understand each other. In the S-XNUMX, you can’t exactly drive the coordinates from AWACS. You can, of course, "farm", but this is also the time, maybe that's why NASAM and the "flowers" of IRIS hit home.
    We are talking about serious systems, I don’t want to talk about trinkets like the Avenger or Asp, these are systems (with their tiny kill zones) for fighting off helicopters and UAVs.
    3. Let's talk about the depth of issuing combat information (BI). To destroy targets at the far borders of the affected areas, you need BI from a range that will allow you to turn on the system (after all, you won’t keep it constantly on), assess the situation and make a decision to fire on specific targets, issue a command from the command post of the grouping to fire units, search, detection and capture of the target, prepare the missile, launch it and accompany the target and the missile until the moment of the meeting. We multiply this time by the target's flight speed and get the range from which it is necessary to issue information in order to destroy the target on the far border of the ZP. This range will be about two times more than the range of the far border of the ZP. For a "garbage truck" for a fighter, about 200-250 km., A little less for the Kyrgyz Republic, but there is also a long-range RFP with a gulkin .. nose. All this with a little primitivism, but essentially true.
    4. How to get these ranges? Yes, it’s very simple, we need RTV, which will create a continuous radar field (RLP) at the right height. And again plugging, the RTV is practically knocked out, and what is left is finished off with Lancets. The RTV that remains needs to be paired with the air defense system, and here it’s not a plug, but a dam, most Sumerian radars do not have digital outputs, and those that have, give it out in a very specific language, imported air defense systems will definitely not understand them, but here you can definitely " to farm", he himself did this with his officers, matched the number 19Zh6 with 5D91 bypassing the Lowlands.
    What to do? Use these air defense systems in an autonomous mode, which will lead to a focal zone of fire of the group and a significant decrease in the group's effectiveness. The losses of our means of attack will, of course, increase, then the Sumerians will shoot, but this will not radically affect the situation with air defense. I can advise the Sumerians to withdraw the air defense systems from the cities (from Kyiv in particular), ruin less apartments and houses. I don’t understand at all what insufficiently smart person advised you to put them in urban areas, but you yourself reduced their characteristics at least twice.
    Everything that I have written here is very simplified. In fact, there are a lot of factors affecting the effectiveness of the ZRV grouping, I tried to explain why the situation with the cover of objects in Sumeria has practically no chance of changing radically.
    The author, Skomorokhov, wrote another panic article praising Western weapons without understanding the basics of creating air defense groups, without understanding how air defense systems are characterized and what characteristics, and most importantly HOW, affect their combat capabilities. With the permission of Skomorokhov, I want to give him some advice:
    1. What you write, and especially HOW, not to write, is already tense in society, and there are enough alarmists without you. You could put it in purely technical language. There will be more benefits.
    2. Do not write about what you are poorly versed in and do not interpret technical data according to your own understanding, this is ugly and not decent.
    3. Write objectively, it’s not enough for you to get stuck about the videoconferencing, and here it is again. The story about the ambush with the ZU-23 against the Su-34, and even two, made me laugh, and the "cherry" about 150 targets lowered the opinion about your engineering education under the plinth. Do you know that any radar can see (according to your track) as many targets as there will be in the airspace?
    4. Think about the future, karma can get you.
    I understand that you do not need my advice, but still, what if ...
    For sim, I have the honor.
    1. -1
      3 January 2023 12: 02
      Few of these articles are just hype. Everyone wrote correctly, the problem is not in their jambs, but in ours, in Afghanistan there were many losses due to fatigue and laziness, they flew along the same routes, waited for the dushmans with stingers to arrive.
  40. -1
    3 January 2023 11: 55
    Any weapon is a danger, in Vietnam a plane was shot down from a rifle, there are no questions asked, it’s good that the equipment is different and old, it’s like learning something that is not useful. The main thing is that we do not waste the experience that we are now gaining, so that later we would not run into Israeli planes, as in Egypt.
  41. 0
    9 February 2023 23: 38
    Can’t you, how can the Americans suppress air defense? Work as sabotage groups. Where are the vaunted special forces of the GRU, Navy, Vympel s-shmimpels?
  42. 0
    12 February 2023 21: 50
    Quote: businessv
    Quote from: FoBoss_VM
    Solution on the surface: it is necessary to make sure that all these complexes are destroyed on railway platforms on the territory of Ukraine. Destroyed for sure.

    Your words, yes to our command in the ears! How many times and by whom has it already been said about communications, at least through the Dnieper, but things are still there, like bridges through which "gifts" are delivered to the database zones. To get a clear answer at least once: why were the bridges across the Dnieper not destroyed? Indeed, on the example of Antonovsky, we can judge that this is quite possible!

    Artillery does not reach these bridges, the KR needs a hundred to completely disable the bridge, the same Antonovsky showed that the bridge is an extremely tenacious thing, there were a lot of holes in it, but it continued to be used, so all stocks of high-precision weapons can be spent on bridges
  43. 0
    12 February 2023 22: 02
    Quote: gjkrjdybr50
    Didn't want to get into a highly intellectual srach, but I have to.
    Let's look at the problems of using the indicated air defense systems and other wunderwaffe from the point of view of combat use, and not the propaganda that Mr. Skomorokhov arranged once again.
    1. When citing the performance characteristics of systems, especially the parameters of the ZP, it would be nice to indicate the heights for which the boundaries of the ZP are given. One example, for the "Garbage truck": for a target of the KR type, the target detection range along the radio horizon is 53,6 km with a flight altitude of 100 m and an RCS of 1 m2, with an RCS of 0,5, the range is about 40 - 42 km. not 100 km. The same is true for an aircraft, when flying at H = 1000m, the range will be about 140 km, and at an altitude of 100 m, it will be about 60 km. For other systems, the picture is the same. And that's without considering the terrain.
    2. NATO reconnaissance systems provide reconnaissance information; for firing air defense systems, combat information is needed. What is the difference? The answer is simple, accuracy. And the shooting process is not as primitive as Skomorokhov thinks: he received information, AIMED and fired. So, according to combat information, the missile guidance station is displayed in the corners in the target location area, a range strobe is formed at the target location range and after that a high one is turned on (this is a big simplification, but it will do for us). After turning on the high, the target should be in the area of ​​\u300b\uXNUMXbthe space limited by the strobes at the corners and range, but it may not be there, there are enough reasons for this, take my word for it. So, what is next? Further, a search is carried out in extended zones, and after the target is detected (which is far from a fact), a capture is made for escort. All this takes time and not a little. But this is all a saying, the fairy tale is, but how to enter this combat information into the air defense system? From a piece of paper or from a photo it will not work, you need an automated command post that converts the coordinates of AWACS, satellite, etc. to the coordinates of the air defense system. I don't know if this has been decided, but there are doubts. It is not a fact that the systems exchange in the same language and understand each other. In the S-XNUMX, you can’t exactly drive the coordinates from AWACS. You can, of course, "farm", but this is also the time, maybe that's why NASAM and the "flowers" of IRIS hit home.
    We are talking about serious systems, I don’t want to talk about trinkets like the Avenger or Asp, these are systems (with their tiny kill zones) for fighting off helicopters and UAVs.
    3. Let's talk about the depth of issuing combat information (BI). To destroy targets at the far borders of the affected areas, you need BI from a range that will allow you to turn on the system (after all, you won’t keep it constantly on), assess the situation and make a decision to fire on specific targets, issue a command from the command post of the grouping to fire units, search, detection and capture of the target, prepare the missile, launch it and accompany the target and the missile until the moment of the meeting. We multiply this time by the target's flight speed and get the range from which it is necessary to issue information in order to destroy the target on the far border of the ZP. This range will be about two times more than the range of the far border of the ZP. For a "garbage truck" for a fighter, about 200-250 km., A little less for the Kyrgyz Republic, but there is also a long-range RFP with a gulkin .. nose. All this with a little primitivism, but essentially true.
    4. How to get these ranges? Yes, it’s very simple, we need RTV, which will create a continuous radar field (RLP) at the right height. And again plugging, the RTV is practically knocked out, and what is left is finished off with Lancets. The RTV that remains needs to be paired with the air defense system, and here it’s not a plug, but a dam, most Sumerian radars do not have digital outputs, and those that have, give it out in a very specific language, imported air defense systems will definitely not understand them, but here you can definitely " to farm", he himself did this with his officers, matched the number 19Zh6 with 5D91 bypassing the Lowlands.
    What to do? Use these air defense systems in an autonomous mode, which will lead to a focal zone of fire of the group and a significant decrease in the group's effectiveness. The losses of our means of attack will, of course, increase, then the Sumerians will shoot, but this will not radically affect the situation with air defense. I can advise the Sumerians to withdraw the air defense systems from the cities (from Kyiv in particular), ruin less apartments and houses. I don’t understand at all what insufficiently smart person advised you to put them in urban areas, but you yourself reduced their characteristics at least twice.
    Everything that I have written here is very simplified. In fact, there are a lot of factors affecting the effectiveness of the ZRV grouping, I tried to explain why the situation with the cover of objects in Sumeria has practically no chance of changing radically.
    The author, Skomorokhov, wrote another panic article praising Western weapons without understanding the basics of creating air defense groups, without understanding how air defense systems are characterized and what characteristics, and most importantly HOW, affect their combat capabilities. With the permission of Skomorokhov, I want to give him some advice:
    1. What you write, and especially HOW, not to write, is already tense in society, and there are enough alarmists without you. You could put it in purely technical language. There will be more benefits.
    2. Do not write about what you are poorly versed in and do not interpret technical data according to your own understanding, this is ugly and not decent.
    3. Write objectively, it’s not enough for you to get stuck about the videoconferencing, and here it is again. The story about the ambush with the ZU-23 against the Su-34, and even two, made me laugh, and the "cherry" about 150 targets lowered the opinion about your engineering education under the plinth. Do you know that any radar can see (according to your track) as many targets as there will be in the airspace?
    4. Think about the future, karma can get you.
    I understand that you do not need my advice, but still, what if ...
    For sim, I have the honor.

    Explain if everything is so simple and the state of Ukraine's air defense is deplorable, why don't VKS planes bomb roads and railways in the Lvov region?

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