Isn't it time for us to take a swing at our classic - BM-21 "Grad"

It's time

It has become a good tradition in our country to hold grandiose parades in honor of significant dates and festive anniversaries with the display of legendary weapons involved in certain events. We also saw cavalry carts with "Maxims", harnessed by four snow-white thoroughbred stallions, and the legendary Tanks T-34 in impeccable technical condition, and, of course, restored replicas or copies of the Katyushas sung by the people.

And then, after the words of the announcer: “The heirs of the military glory of the Guards rocket mortars of the Great Patriotic War, the modern Grad multiple launch rocket systems, to the applause and enthusiastic cries of the public, leave the most recognizable and formidable BM-21. Only now the sluggish progress of the NMD in Ukraine makes one critically doubt their modernity and power.

System weapons, adopted for service back in 1963, is quite capable of meeting its century in the troops. But the army needs a weapon system for modern warfare, not just for ceremonial parades.

I will express a purely personal opinion in the theses that need to be criticized in order to offer and substantiate my point of view, to rethink the topic raised for the benefit of the army and the country:

- Redundancy for the Armed Forces of one country of the presence of three calibers of multiple launch rocket systems.

- Primitive MLRS "Grad" at the level of weapons of the Second World War.

- The defenselessness of the wheeled chassis of the MLRS "Grad" from being hit by any type of weapon.

- Low power and range of 122-mm ammunition and a narrow niche for combat use.

- Outdated automobile chassis with a gasoline engine MLRS "Hurricane".

- High vulnerability of existing reactive munitions from modern military air defense.

Caliber

Well, I'll start with the simplest of the complex and accessible and controversial to everyone - the choice of caliber for the new "Grad" or "Tornado-G".

It is proposed to increase the caliber of the MLRS from 122 mm to 130 mm (it is unlikely that there will be supporters of a reduction ... although ...).

The most uncomplicated high-explosive fragmentation projectile 9M22 (length (Dl) 2 mm; mass (M) of the projectile 870 kg; warhead mass 66 kg; maximum firing range (D) 18,4 km; further characteristics will be given in the same sequence with abbreviations) is the same age as the system itself and was developed specifically for it.

After decades and development along an extensive path, it came to the emergence of a new analogue - a high-explosive fragmentation projectile 9M522 with a detachable warhead (Dl 3 mm; M 037 kg; M warhead 70 kg; D 25 km). We must pay tribute to the designers and industrialists, we see a real increase in the main characteristics, but at the same time it should be noted that the new projectile already exceeds the length of the existing guide tube equal to 37,5 millimeters. And this means that the modernization potential of the existing system in caliber 3 mm is completely exhausted.

Perhaps, in the future, you can try to lengthen the guide pipes by 200-300 mm in order to achieve another increase in performance by 5-10 percent? But pay attention to the following fact: the ratio of the length of the projectile to the caliber already reaches 23,5 and 24,9, respectively. Still, we are talking about rocket artillery, but barreled artillery, and it is very difficult to imagine a three-meter projectile in the barrel of the Gvozdika self-propelled guns of the same caliber. And what is the longitudinal stiffness of projectiles with a similar elongation in flight at supersonic speeds with rotation?

122-mm unguided rocket 9M522 with a detachable high-explosive fragmentation warhead.

Why the new caliber 130mm?

Firstly, this is not know-how, the named caliber has long been used in naval artillery systems on ships and coastal troops.

Secondly, for economic reasons and logistics. The unhurried manufacture by the industry of a package of guides in a caliber of 130 mm and the same length of 3 meters will not cause technological problems, will not require new equipment and tooling. For army operators, the MLRS in the new caliber, while maintaining the main overall length of 3 meters, will not require the replacement of the main carriers / chassis or the revision of the organizational and staffing structure of units and subunits.

Thirdly, it becomes possible to use the real advantages of the bicaliber system. By installing on the old existing 122-mm projectiles, the stocks of which are considerable in arsenals, two or three polymer belts only 4 mm thick, by analogy with guide belts on projectiles for rifled guns, we get the opportunity to fire from 130mm caliber guides. The second variant of bicaliberity can be assumed to be used for boosters in a new caliber of warheads from previously released ammunition.

Here you should pay attention to one nuance.

When developing ammunition for a new caliber system, an obligatory requirement must be adopted to separate the head of the projectile from the upper stage that has performed its function in flight. The fact is that modern military air defense is already quite successfully coping with the task of intercepting Tochka-U ballistic missiles used on the Ukrainian front, ammunition from MLRS and HIMARS of 227 mm caliber and a flight speed of 2,5 M.

This means that the existing radars as part of the air defense system and the counter-battery radar are quite confident in detecting and tracking such objects with the ensuing consequences. And in the near future, laser combat systems on the battlefield are on the way.

In existing MLRS ammunition, a jet booster engine occupies from half to two thirds of the length of the projectile, and, as a rule, various wings, stabilizers or guides are attached to it. Having fulfilled its function of accelerating the ammunition after the burnout of the powder charge, all this “economy” becomes a factor that increases the effective scattering surface for electromagnetic waves of radar pulses, which leads to an increase in the probability of detection.

In addition, having accelerated the warhead to maximum speed, the idle hollow powder engine with stabilizers becomes a braking element from the oncoming air flow and an additional factor in flight destabilization from the effects of lateral wind loads, thereby reducing the possible flight range of the warhead and hit accuracy.

From the point of view of the radar, a free-falling powder engine separated from the warhead becomes an additional passive interference, doubling the number of targets detected and tracked, which can lead to overloading the information capabilities of the radar equipment.
I suppose that, perhaps, there will be supporters of a more significant increase in caliber, and of course, only from good intentions. Here's a look at the mentioned authoritative American opponents of a larger caliber with six and twelve shells in a volley. They, most likely, have grown into the category of carriers of high-precision guided missiles with the corresponding prices for ammunition.

The increase in the linear size of the caliber by only 8 millimeters in percentage terms is even less - only 6,5%. But the increase in the cross section of the ammunition and, accordingly, the volume increases by 13,5%. This will allow a creative approach to the choice of either increasing the flight range or the power of the ammunition, and in any case will facilitate the creation of more effective cluster and guided warheads. And finally, to confirm the correctness of the chosen argumentation, there is a well-known example from the not so distant past.

Quote from Wikipedia:

For the first time in the practice of world tank building, a long-barreled (34 caliber) 30,5-mm L-76 gun (model of 11) was installed on the T-1939 medium tank, significantly exceeding the muzzle velocity of an armor-piercing projectile (635 m / s) that existed in those years foreign tank artillery systems. And since March 1941, the T-34 began to install a 76,2-mm F-34 cannon (model 1941) with a barrel length of 41,5 calibers and an initial velocity of an armor-piercing projectile of 662 m/s, which pierced 60-mm armor from a distance 1 m: T-000-34 is a clarifying designation for this model. The high modernization potential of the design turned out to be very important; this made it possible to effectively improve the combat qualities of the tank at the same time as increasing its industrial production throughout the war.

And further:

In 1943, due to the mass appearance of new models of armored vehicles with reinforced armor among the Germans, the effectiveness of the 76,2-mm T-34 tank guns became insufficient. This forced us to look for ways to improve the combat qualities of the T-34. After working out several options, the T-1944-34 was launched into mass production in 85, armed with the new S-53 85 mm cannon.

To summarize: first, a radical increase in the length of the barrel, and yet, in wartime conditions, a radical increase in caliber by 9 millimeters (11,5%). Both conditions have been fulfilled by fate: new ammunition of the old caliber is already sticking out of the guides, and the tenth month of full-scale hostilities in the country is in the yard ...

Chassis

Still, tradition is a great thing! As soon as the Guards rocket launcher appeared in 1941 on the chassis of a conventional ZIS-6 off-road truck and later on the Lend-Lease Studebaker, the new generation was destined to ride for 60 years first on the Ural-375 gasoline rogue and on this day on the diesel "Ural-4320". Simple, cheap and cheerful! The advantages of the system as a whole were appreciated by the Germans, who understand something in a real war, created their own LARS-1 and upgraded it into LARS-2.

The Americans, as always, not understanding the depth and elegance inherent in the masterpiece, decided to surprise and win everyone due to high technologies in their MLRS / HIMARS, and forced everyone to buy them. But both of them did the right thing - they booked the cabs of trucks, at least from light small arms.

I foresee objections like: MLRS will not go in the attacking formations of units and will not even take a place in the first or second line of trenches on the defensive.

The special operation that began in Ukraine showed that the vast length of the front line is permeable to the DRG, in the liberated areas the appearance of “rebels from the OUN-UPA” is possible, and the mining of territories with the help of mines of the “Petal” type prohibited by conventions is shown to us on TV. All these are real threats to life for the crews and for the combat units themselves based on trucks in the rear zone of our troops.

Therefore, the author chose as a chassis for the new 130 mm MLRS on the MT-LB VMK conveyor.

Where a burst from a 5,45 / 5,56 / 7,62 mm machine gun pierces through the Ural cabin, the sloping armor of the conveyor will save the lives of the crew and the engine of the vehicle. If the Ural runs into the aforementioned Petal, then no centralized inflation system will save the wheel torn to shreds, it will have to be changed here and now.

I will assume that the conveyor in this situation will retain mobility. And even when meeting with a pickup-cart, the presence of armor and a machine gun on the conveyor equalizes the chances of opponents. To the advantage of the conveyor in protection, you need to add a low silhouette in comparison with the truck (the height on the roof of the tower is 1 mm versus 890 mm for the Ural).

The author is convinced from personal experience that the Ural's cross-country ability on virgin snow is higher than that of the three-bridge KamAZ, but inferior to the tracked ATS-59. I hope that the tracked MT-LB VMK will surpass in cross-country ability any wheeled chassis capable of carrying a MLRS launcher. Still, the caterpillar transporter is an all-terrain vehicle, and the car will still remain an all-terrain vehicle.

The idea of ​​​​MLRS based on the MT-LB is not new, here are a couple of drawings from the Soviet era. And there was even a real project for their production in sunny fraternal Bulgaria ...

Please note that in both figures, the designers provided additional supports lowered, most likely by hydraulics, to stabilize the system during firing, we do not observe anything like this on the Grad / Tornado-G wheeled chassis.

To stop the same problem on a modern MLRS tracked vehicle, it is proposed to use a more elegant solution that works on a heavy class combat vehicle.

The transition of the MLRS to a tracked chassis solves not only the problems of protecting crews and equipment and increasing mobility on the battlefield and cross-country ability, the aspect of unifying weapons in general for the army and solving the logistics problems of specific units is no less important.

Here is a far from complete list of equipment only for Russian artillery based on the specified transporter:

- 1L219M "Zoo-1M" ​​- radar reconnaissance and fire control system;

- 1RL239 "Lynx" - artillery reconnaissance station ARK-1;

- 1V12 "Machine-C" - a set of fire control automation tools (KSAUO) for self-propelled artillery "Machine-C", includes four artillery fire control vehicles:

1V13 - the car of the senior officer of the battery KSAUO 1V12,
1V14 - KSAUO 1V12 battery commander's vehicle,
1V15 - the car of the division commander KSAUO 1V12,
1V16 - the car of the chief of staff of the KSAUO 1V12 division.

- 1V12-3 "Machine-M" - a set of fire control automation tools (KSAUO) for self-propelled artillery;

- 1V12M-3 "Falcet-M" - a set of fire control automation equipment (KSAUO) for self-propelled artillery;

- 1V181 "Ring-2" - a set of fire control automation equipment (KSAUO) for artillery, includes two vehicles:

1V185 - unified command and observation vehicle,
1V186 - unified command and staff vehicle.

- 1V197 - a set of fire control automation equipment (KSAUO) for self-propelled artillery.

On the basis of the MT-LB transporter, for more than twenty years in three countries such a mass system as the self-propelled guns 2S1 Gvozdika has been produced, which is still in service with many countries. And the understanding of the importance of solving this triune task was embodied in the metal.

Considering this “product”, one gets the impression that it was hastily assembled, as they say, on their knees in a garage cooperative, they took a standard chassis and added a finished MLRS. Neither the designer on Louboutins, nor the military representative with operational experience, nor the junior researcher with fresh knowledge of the sopromat participated in the throes of creativity. It is possible that this is a 9P139 combat vehicle of the Soviet Grad-1 system; photographs of the TZM 9T451 based on the MT-LB from this system could not be found.

The new MLRS-130/30 based on the MT-LB VMK seems to be more compact and harmonious. I will briefly express my wishes for the design, which are not reflected in the drawings.

First, the rejection of the amphibious qualities of the transporter. It makes no sense to cross the water barrier twice for the sake of a twenty-second volley. In the new 130-mm caliber, it is possible that the firing range will be increased to 50 kilometers and the presence of guided precision-guided munitions will make it possible to effectively fire at the enemy from one's own shore of a water barrier without visiting a cleared bridgehead.

In this sense, it will be much more important to be able to quickly reload from a transport-loading vehicle closer to the front line. In Belarus, this understanding came and was embodied in the creation of the TZM-122 based on the MT-LBu transporter for artillery units of the 122-mm Gvozdika self-propelled guns. Something similar is proposed for the new tracked MLRS.

Secondly, due to the increased constant load on the conveyor chassis, it makes sense to install a more powerful, shorter and lighter motor.

On the Web, you can find information about the staffing of the calculation of the MLRS "Grad" from two to six people. I will assume for the new tracked combat vehicle 130-mm MLRS a crew of four with a compact placement in front of the conveyor. In the aft compartment, behind the armor, there will be electric servo drives for the horizontal and vertical guidance system for the stack of barrels and hydraulics for stabilizing the hull by lowering the guide wheels.

The entire process of combat work from control of an autonomous machine-gun module to orientation, binding on the ground and opening fire must be carried out from the armored space of the cockpit. Probably, this will require a shift of the engine compartment towards the stern.

Possible error

“Summing up, we can state that the Uragan MLRS at the time it was put into service in 1975 was quite modern and met the requirements of that time, and also competed on equal terms with the M270 and LAR-160 MLRS (adopted in 1983), at present, due to the absence in the future of both modernization of existing rockets and the development of new ones, it lags far behind in terms of such parameters as range and accuracy from modern (developed from 1994 to 2020) foreign MLRS of caliber 220–230 mm, in which use missiles with a much greater range and accuracy (due to the correction of the trajectory of the projectiles using satellite navigation systems or targeting by a laser beam).

In other words, it can be stated, summarizing, that the military leadership of our country made a mistake by relying on the modernization of the Smerch MLRS of a larger caliber.

The course of the special operation in Ukraine leaves no one in doubt about the importance of having a full-scale diverse space constellation of artificial Earth satellites for navigation, communications, intelligence, etc. tripod theodolite or compass in an open field.

But they are no longer surprised by the accuracy of the Hymars, the navigation of the Bayraktar, the presence of tactical communications from Starlink in the trenches of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Against us, the UAF provides the United States and NATO with all these benefits and conveniences from the bounties and bells and whistles of their space infrastructure. As they say, our MLRS "Tornado-G" and "Tornado-S" with the introduction of satellite navigation and correction of the flight of shells do not graze the rear ones either.

Just do not forget that all these cosmic goodies and lotions are good when faced with a "potato" republic (bananas do not grow in Ukraine). In a conflict for which we are maintaining the Strategic Missile Forces, SSBNs, SA, all this may disappear at the very beginning, and perhaps even the day before. Then the big question will arise, where and how to shoot "Tornados" at a distance of 90-120 kilometers?

Another disadvantage of the large caliber.

For the sake of order, let me remind you of the characteristics of the 300-mm high-explosive fragmentation projectile 9M528 MLRS "Smerch" (Dl 7 600 mm; M 815 kg; M warhead 258 kg; D 90 km). In order to survive and win over the sea, anti-ship missiles comparable in mass, dimensions and speed must cling to the crests of the waves, hiding from ship radars. Comparable air-launched missiles have to be removed into the internal compartments of stealth fighters, as the main unmasking factor in front of an air enemy and ground-based air defense systems.

Commensurate "Zircon" and "Dagger" switched to hypersonic for survival. The main advantage of the MLRS, by definition, was considered the ability to release a "swarm" of shells in a short period of time -drones and retreat as soon as possible from a position from a likely retaliatory strike. But for modern air defense systems, such as the Pantsir-S1 and Tor-M2 with an ammunition load of 12 and 16 missiles, respectively, even a full salvo of twelve shells of 300-mm caliber and 7,6 meters long on a descending trajectory will not be something extraordinary.

Yes, at the turn of the century, the wheeled chassis of the Uragan MLRS was hopelessly outdated and did not fit into the harmonious logistic chains of army artillery units and formations. And there is no doubt that with due attention and approach to the modernization of the 220 mm caliber reactive system itself, in our time it would not be inferior in terms of range and accuracy to the 227 mm American counterpart.

The news about the possibility of bringing the firing range of heavy flamethrower systems of the same caliber to 120 kilometers can serve as weak consolation. But it's completely different storyas they say in the West.

Comments

[Vladimir_2U]

The increase in the linear size of the caliber by only 8 millimeters in percentage terms is even less - only 6,5%. But the increase in the cross section of the ammunition and, accordingly, the volume increases by 13,5%.

Absolutely not the increase for which it is worth fencing this whole garden with the transition to a new caliber

first, a radical increase in the length of the barrel, and yet, in wartime conditions, a radical increase in caliber by 9 millimeters (11,5%).
Both conditions have been fulfilled by fate: new ammunition of the old caliber is already sticking out of the guides, and the tenth month of full-scale hostilities in the country is in the yard ...

With guns for the T-34, the author has some kind of nonsense, not an argument! Unlike the proposed non-existent 130 mm ammunition, shells for the 85 mm cannon have already been produced in considerable quantities and in full range!

with due attention and approach to the modernization of the 220 mm caliber reactive system itself, in our time it would not be inferior in terms of range and accuracy to the 227 mm American counterpart.

! This is where it was necessary to start, and not spread over a non-existent 130 mm rocket!

[bayard]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

! This is where it was necessary to start, and not spread over a non-existent 130 mm rocket!

In addition, it is worth noting the fallacy of the proposal to translate "Grad" or whatever the author has in his (122 mm) or 130 mm (?) caliber onto the MTLB tracked chassis. The main advantage of our MLRS systems is the ability to quickly transfer over long distances along general roads ON YOUR OWN POWER (!). That is, without the involvement of trailers and the associated difficulties. Although a certain number of these (on the MTLB chassis) would be useful for operations on muddy soils, these are already special cases and niche applications.
But choosing a new chassis for the Hurricane would be very useful and timely. Of course, a wheeled four-axle.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: bayard

caliber for MTLB tracked chassis

MTLB is still quite light and quite high-speed car, besides it is quite sparing asphalt, so there is grain, KMK.

[bayard]

Quote: Vladimir_2U

MTLB is still quite light and quite fast cars

And you will load it with a block of launchers with all the mechanization and after that see how much it becomes heavier, increase the specific pressure on the ground and how after that it will affect the road surface. In addition, she will still not be able to run for long distances on her own due to the rapid exhaustion of the resource, she will need a trailer. Look at the "Carnation", which does not even have 6, but 7 rollers (an extended chassis), and yet they are not driven under their own power during relocation.
Choose a new chassis with an armored cab, as well as the ability to carry out guidance without leaving the cab, and this will be enough. There would be more of them, as well as BC for them.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: bayard

Look at the "Carnation", which does not even have 6, but 7 rollers (an extended chassis), and yet they are not driven under their own power during relocation.

[militarist63]

Look at the "Carnation", which does not even have 6, but 7 rollers (extended chassis), and yet they are not driven under their own power during relocation

Actually, in the old days of the Afghan campaign, our 2С1s went on operations (for hundreds of kilometers) exclusively on their own .... And when in February 1989 they left for the Union, our division with a full complement of 400 km to Termez measured with caterpillars, and not on some trailers there!

[bayard]

I would look at trailers with "Carnations" and tanks on Afghan serpentines. And there, indeed, a caterpillar chassis is often preferable - greater stability.
I'm not against the caterpillar chassis as such, for other cases they are preferable. But it can still be no more than 10 - 20% of the entire park. On our plains and spaces, a wheelbase is preferable.

[Eule]

The resource of caterpillars is very seriously lower than that of a wheeled chassis. fuel consumption is higher. If you really bother, then you need a new chassis in general, with unification with the BTR-80 on wheels and a maximum of units.
The next and very controversial step is to go beyond the permissible traffic rules, making the car 3,36m wide, which will make it lower and more stable. And the number is the railway dimension, so that it was possible to carry.

[Sergei N 58912062]

Of course, the chassis of the MLRS "Hurricane" needs to be changed. There is KAMAZ and BAZ.

[yuriy55]

You can swing in terms of changing the chassis (wheeled to tracked). As for the firing range, it fully satisfies the requirements:
Minimum firing range OFS: 4000
CAS: 2500
UAS: 1600 m
Maximum shooting range OFS: 40
CAS: 33
UAS: 42 m

[bayard]

Quote: yuriy55

You can swing in terms of changing the chassis (wheeled to tracked).

It is better to make the car an armored cabin of increased capacity (the second row of seats for the calculation of 4 - 5 people) and the ability to carry out guidance without leaving the cabin. And leave the wheels - for the possibility of a quick transfer on general roads. On the MTLB chassis, you can also have part of the fleet, but for cases where it is impossible to use wheeled vehicles on muddy soils.

[Sergei N 58912062]

In addition to the pluses, the caterpillar chassis also has its minuses! And they are not few!

[Vladimir80]

Well, why reinvent the wheel, why prepare for yesterday's wars? - Isn't it clear that grads are outdated and not very effective today???
Do we, in our impenetrable pride, have to always look for "our own way"? Learn from China or Turkey. And what they did - they copied the best samples of the NATO countries' RSZO and trade them.

[Bogalex]

Can you elaborate on why

grads are outdated and not very effective today

?
Personally, from my point of view, this is a very dubious statement.

[Beetle1991]

There are no high-precision projectiles. The spread of a salvo of a battery is several hundred meters.
That is, you can only hit a large group of targets.
Range. There are 37 km shells, but the military does not buy them. And it's not about the price. There, on tests, the spread turned out to be completely horse.
Hence, safety. You need to shoot from a distance of up to 20 km. That is, they are substituted under counter-battery fire. It’s not for you to shoot with impunity with hymars from 60-70 km.

Requires a lot of people and capacious logistics. Refuel 1 volley of a division of hail is the same echelon of trucks. We need people to charge it all manually. In addition to the hail itself, there are a lot of trucks for shells and more calculations. In short, the hail division is an excellent fat target at close range.
Well, there is no accuracy at all. You can make a lunar landscape, but the desired targets are hit with difficulty and a huge expenditure of projectiles.

[Bogalex]

So the MLRS, in principle, is designed to hit group area targets, and not machine-gun points.
That is why the formation commander has at his disposal artillery units with different systems designed to solve different problems.
Attempts to turn Grads into high-precision systems are, of course, commendable, but sometimes they indicate a misunderstanding of the role and place of these combat vehicles in the overall weapon system.
Far from all tasks are solved by high-precision munitions, there is no need to overestimate them.

[stankow]

you can only hit a large group of targets

And most targets on the battlefield are just that. Moreover, they have an unexpected property to move quickly. For example attacking infantry. She overcomes 300 meters from their trenches to the ceasefire line in 2 minutes. And it will not wait for you to process them one by one with cunning WTO, there is no time for that. Only a volley in 40 seconds of a jet division and the attack was thwarted. And drinking will moderate enough. While the wounded are being dragged, the division will also reload. So 2-3 times and the offensive ends ingloriously. How many times have you seen...

[Alexey Lantukh]

As for accuracy. MLRS hit areas, but the dispersion is still too large. At the same time, I am struck by the instability of the installation. With a salvo, it sways very strongly and it seems that no one cares about this, although pneumatic or hydraulic supports can be added almost in a garage cooperative.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Alexey Lantukh

As for accuracy. MLRS hit areas, but the dispersion is still too large. At the same time, I am struck by the instability of the installation. With a salvo, it sways very strongly and it seems that no one cares about this, although pneumatic or hydraulic supports can be added almost in a garage cooperative.

In fact, the BM-21 "Grad" is equipped with spring switches, which is for her ass. Much more efficient (more precisely, faster) than hydraulic suspension with the help of supports. I advise you to pay attention to how much it takes for construction machines.

[Glory1974]

For different tasks, different weapons. Specialization justifies itself.
"Grad" for its tasks, and it fulfills them. What "Grad" cannot do, "Hurricane" can, hereinafter "Smerch". At the same time, new Grads were made for export deliveries with topographical reference systems and other automation, which allows not very trained fighters to shoot much better.
The problem that has not been solved so far is reconnaissance and communications equipment, guided weapons. Traditionally, since the 70-80s, we have been lagging behind in this direction.
Agree that a reservation is needed. Otherwise, even a small fragment can disable the car, not to mention the crew.

[stankow]

~~~~~ other automation, which allows not very trained fighters to shoot much better

Uvy, the automation system requires a soldier to have longer training. Moreover, not instead of, but in addition to ordinary training - well, with classical optics, compass, panorama, etc. And this knowledge becomes outdated very quickly. A fighter was mobilized 10 years after demobilization, and there is already a different system. The one he knows is outdated.

[Alexey Lantukh]

Alas, automation requires less preparation, not more. I am writing as a former artillery topographer. Even at the stage of simple calculations. Well, if everything is introduced directly into the installation, which is self-orienting, then topographers with compasses are not needed. In practice, what I see on TV is what it was 50 years ago. Familiar PAB2 complete with azimuth nozzles, which are almost never used. What could have moved forward here is rather complex calculations, which can be accelerated with an electronic tablet with less chance of error.

[Glory1974]

the automation system requires the soldier to take longer training.

If you use automatic location detection, poke the mouse at the target on the monitor screen, the equipment itself determines the shooting parameters, this does not require special training.

[stankow]

Airplanes have had this for a long time. And what, you can plant anyone at the helm? Less training is required than for example for a glider ? And for the machine? Less training required for digital control ?

[Glory1974]

I don’t know about airplanes, the military, but they put anyone on civilians. Now he is not a pilot in fact, but a computer operator. For example, the disaster in Kazan. There, the Boeing crew consisted of two retrained navigators, and when they were given the command to fly to the second circle, the autopilot was turned off, it turned out that none of them could fly. As a result, the plane crashed. This is the reality that surrounds us.
As for the Gradov automation, such equipment was exported. It was also possible not to bother with teaching Arabs and Negroes. They know laptops, they showed how to work in the program, the rest is done by the technician.
Similarly, with work on machines that are CNC. No need to study theory, what kind of drills, how to process metal, etc. The computer knows all this. I inserted the part, launched the program and sat reading a book.
Therefore, I will definitely say that yes, less preparation for digital control is needed.

[stankow]

To work with modern electronics, you need to know doubly. You also need to know the old way, because electronics can fail, and "battalions ask for fire." So you have to study twice.

[Glory1974]

You write about your wishes, and I write about the reality that surrounds us.

[d4rkmesa]

"Specialization" is very outdated. "Grad" can pour out a bunch of cheap ammunition with relatively low efficiency, "Hurricane" - pour useless cluster munitions or infantry mines, "Smerch" - is closer to a full-fledged WTO to destroy fortifications, but there are few of them and a 50-ton chassis, to put it mildly, no longer required. Specialization needs to be provided with a variety of packages. Although, "Tornados" ala "Tornado-S" can be left with new ammunition, but "Grad" and "Hurricane" have long been outdated.

[Alexey Lantukh]

What Grad can be famous for: 1. When 24 shells are flying, it is possible to shoot down something, but basically not, unlike Tornado missiles. 2. It is necessary to improve the rocket.

[lelik613]

To begin with, the simplest booking of the cabin and launcher (at least with boiler iron). cabin-box welded no frills.

[Glory1974]

new ammunition turns old systems into precision weapons. Such ammunition is available for "Hurricane" and "Smerch" so they are not outdated. It makes no sense to make such hail, it is good precisely because it is cheap. And it works perfectly for area targets. Whoever was under his attack will not let him lie. But of course, it is not a miracle weapon, for example, they cannot knock over dug-in infantry, so there must be competent use.

[d4rkmesa]

"And it works great for area targets"
There are no longer any "areal goals" now. Because no one advances according to those charters, with forces no less than a division on a narrow section of the front. "Area" targets have now de facto been transformed into, how to say, "cluster", distributed, group targets. For example, a road, a bridge, a chain, an airfield, a fortified area. For such purposes, guided weapons are not necessary, but high-precision ones will not hurt at all. I mean, the current "Grad" from the point of view of statistics is becoming catastrophically ineffective. Apart from developing cheap ammunition (assuming the cost to increase by several times, but preferably not by an order of magnitude), which can be set by coordinates on a certain group target, I think there is no way out.
As for the new ammunition, yes, they exist for the Tornado, but for the Hurricanes - I have not seen it in the open press yet. There was news that the Ukrainians had fitted something for their Hurricanes, but I doubt it. In the end, both the chassis and everything else are outdated there, so it hardly makes sense.

[Glory1974]

There are no longer any "areal goals" now. Because no one advances according to those charters, with forces no less than a division on a narrow section of the front. "Area" targets have now de facto been transformed into, how to say, "cluster", distributed, group targets. For example, a road, a bridge, a chain, an airfield, a fortified area.

Area targets are a group of single targets. And they have not gone away. No one fights with one tank. And a group of tanks in the concentration area already has an area target. A road or bridge is a linear target.
Read the whole theory.
New ammunition is in service, these are cluster ammunition with individual guidance, there are both for a tornado and for a hurricane. They did not do it for hail, small caliber, do not shove it.

[yuriy55]

Quote: Vladimir80

Well, why reinvent the wheel, why prepare for yesterday's wars?

By the way, a bicycle is a very economical means of transportation ...
But you are right that for the army you need to choose the best, which necessarily guarantees the safety of the calculation and convenience during relocation.
From the Turks and the Chinese, we must learn the high organization of the work of the defense industry and the fight against inefficient managers ...

[Viktor07]

Managers?!))))) Do you know the number of GOSTs, OSTs, Standards and other NTDs and NPAs for the development of 1 sample of weapons and military equipment?! ....

[yuriy55]

Quote: Viktor07

Managers?!))))) Do you know the number of GOSTs, OSTs, Standards and other NTDs and NPAs for the development of 1 sample of weapons and military equipment?! ....

And I don't need to know. Moreover, I don’t even know the decoding (except for GOST) of the abbreviations you cited - I don’t need it. I am able to evaluate the efforts for a specific result.
But in life I got used to situations when a specific person is responsible for a specific state business, and not an open joint stock company or, moreover, an LLC ...
Criteria for evaluating labor (activity) have not been canceled. And, as a rule, at the same time they appeal with present tense verbs ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: yuriy55

From the Turks and the Chinese, we must learn the high organization of the work of the defense industry and the fight against inefficient managers ...

Well, let's learn from the Turks - how to make equipment with imported components and fly under sanctions. Or how to make an MBT for a "domestic" engine, then try to buy it for production vehicles around the world and stop at Korea. Or how to take away the production of MBT from the developer and transfer it to a company closely associated with the head of the country.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Quote: Alexey RA

Well, let's learn from the Turks - how to make equipment with imported components and fly under sanctions. Or how to make an MBT for a "domestic" engine, then try to buy it for production vehicles around the world and stop at Korea. Or how to take away the production of MBT from the developer and transfer it to a company closely associated with the head of the country.

Yes, you dug in the direction in which the dog is buried. But only a little. They didn’t dig deeper, probably because there will be a lot of stink if you dig in this direction, but there’s no point. And what can be the use of a dead dog? And your opponent is completely wrong already in the fact that we have effective managers all around. And even if the prosecutor's office suddenly becomes interested in them, it will quickly come to the conclusion that they are really effective.

[Alexey RA]

With Turkey, the funny thing is that their military-industrial complex followed the same path as ours. We ended this journey in 2014. The Turks held out a little longer. But as soon as they were pressed down by sanctions, the chains immediately fell down.
Although we must pay tribute to our managers - before the idea "and let's put a reliable and cheap German diesel engine on the new MBT"They didn't get it. They limited themselves only to electronics.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Quote: Alexey RA

Although we must pay tribute to our managers - they did not reach the idea "let's put a reliable and cheap German diesel engine on the new MBT". Limited to electronics only.

Here it is difficult to argue where it came and where it didn’t. The logic of effective managers was determined and is determined exclusively by pragmatic considerations. The last years before retirement, I worked as an engineer in a foreign company. Sales of equipment to private companies were going well. But in the last year there have been requests for the cheapest equipment, which during my time was not sold to Russia even once. It turned out that a tender had been announced at a Moscow municipal enterprise. We were bombarded with a flurry of inquiries, each claiming that he would be the supplier. If you think that it was and is otherwise in the military-industrial complex, then I will allow myself to disagree with you. This does not at all mean that owners are more effective managers than public managers. It only means that there is such a climate in the country when it is quite difficult to steal from a private trader, and the state manager himself is in the share. And then - who will give more.

[yuriy55]

Quote: Alexey RA

Well let's learn from the Turks

You perfectly understood what I meant when I said:

Quote: yuriy55

From the Turks and the Chinese, we must learn the high organization of the work of the defense industry and the fight against inefficient managers ...

And this is nothing more than the production of finished products of the military assortment in MASSIVE (even sufficient for export) quantity. We should not repeat the mistakes of others, but draw the right conclusions from them. Moreover, in the new history of our Fatherland there is a lot of useful experience and not so much in the production of galoshes, but in the selection of leading personnel and their responsibility for the task assigned.
*****
We are with you (I hope) against the "advanced rear-wheel drive" European experience. And this does not mean that in our country it should be spread despite ...
Why do we need someone else's nonsense and insanity, when we are not able to get rid of our own (yet) ...

[Alexey RA]

Quote: yuriy55

And this is nothing more than the production of finished products of the military assortment in MASSIVE (even sufficient for export) quantity. We should not repeat the mistakes of others, but draw the right conclusions from them.

So I am writing about this - that the Turkish mass character was provided with broad international cooperation. And it was they who repeated our mistakes and, as a result, fell into the same rake - when it turned out that for Western companies, yesterday's reliable business partner suddenly became a handshake.
As long as we had parts and mechanisms from all over the world, our military-industrial complex could mass-produce products. And then bang - and no MTU diesels. ICH, the Turks flew in the same way with MTU engines, but not for ships, but for a tank.

[alexmach]

was supported by extensive international cooperation. And it was they who repeated our mistakes and eventually fell into the same rake

In truth, they had no other choice.

[lelik613]

This is not our way, we will order Mistrals profitably.

[Sergei Kazarin]

You only need the Tornado-S variant on a Kamaz chassis with a loading system like in Khimarska

[yuriy55]

Quote: Sergey Kazarin

You only need the Tornado-S variant on a Kamaz chassis with a loading system like in Khimarska

And if you come up with something in the form of the Belarusian "Polonaise" (you can also use Belarusian developments within the framework of the union state) or improve the existing one for the benefit of both states?
True, in a competitive struggle, preference is given to the strongest, and not to relatives or acquaintances ... Couldn't? Go train on cats...

[Sergei Kazarin]

Rostec, which is run by Putin's friend Chemezov, will be invented for another 20 years.
And Tornado-S has been ready since 2016

[alexmach]

Belarusian developments can also be used

It would be possible if these developments were delivered directly from China in finished form :)

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Sergey Kazarin

You only need the Tornado-S variant on a Kamaz chassis with a loading system like in Khimarska

Kamaz is behind in the Urals in this weight range. The bonnet version will always be safer when hitting a mine. By the way, Miass is ready even today to supply a chassis with an armored cabin for MLRS, but the Ministry of Defense does not need this.

[demiurg]

What Grad could have done as brigade jet perfection has already been done in Tornado-G. Satellite topographic location launcher and ballistic computer. It is for MLRS with a firing range of up to 40 km accuracy behind the eyes.
New caliber, why?

[Bogalex]

Support with relatively minor amendments.
First. The firing range of 40 km directly in the "Tornado-G" still has not been achieved. This barrier is taken by marine AZ-DS-48, to which there seem to be very significant claims for accuracy. Although I can’t say for sure - I haven’t seen shooting tables.
Second. Still, I cannot but support the author's claims to the security of the chassis. The transfer of "Tornado-G" to the armored "Ural" with a two-row cabin, in my opinion, would not be superfluous at all.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Moreover, there is an armored "Ural" with a two-row cabin and a support.
[/ Center]

[demiurg]

Why Tornado G double-row cab? The calculation is two people. The armored cab, as it were, does not spoil the car, I agree here.
For hail, by the way, shots were fired at 40 km, with weakened power. And they abandoned them. It makes no sense for a means of brigade subordination to hit at such ranges. There is Tornado-S, and there will be Coalitions, which are higher than the roof to hit point targets.

[Sancho_SP]

That is the combat calculation of the machine. But in the battery there are already a few more fighters than two per car.

[Bogalex]

Calculation "Tornado-G" - three people. And, to tell the truth, this is not enough.

[Barberry25]

the author simply does not understand the size of that fifth point that we will have from the transition from 122 to 130 mm ..

[Bogalex]

Regardless of what I write below, the article turned out to be interesting. Thanks to the author.
Mistakes and absurdities sea. Their analysis in the format of a comment would not fit and would require a separate article-refutation. Is it necessary? Not sure.
Therefore, I will focus on the most important thing. The fact that all the thoughts of the author immediately bring under the guillotine - the internal contradictions of his own reasoning.
BM-21 "Grad" is a massive MLRS, which is in service with artillery units of combined arms formations and military units. There are thousands of them in the troops and in the arsenals, and therefore any idea of ​​​​modernization / replacement is simply inseparable from the issue of cheapness and ensuring mass production.
And it seems like the author understands this, saying in the section on the transition to a new caliber that

The unhurried manufacture by the industry of a package of guides in a caliber of 130 mm and the same length of 3 meters will not cause technological problems, will not require new equipment and tooling. For army operators of MLRS in a new caliber while maintaining the main length dimension of 3 meters does not require replacement of main carriers/chassis or revision of the organizational and staffing structure of units and subdivisions.

And then, without a moment's hesitation, the author offers main carrier/chassis replacement!!!
Here is a twist, as they say!
I will not dwell on the problems of switching to a new caliber, which the author clearly does not see (this, once again, is material for a separate article).
But the author never ceases to amaze.
Offering a new chassis, he stops his choice, as it were, on a special chassis from the 203S2 Pion 7-mm self-propelled gun, which is quite unambiguously illustrated by the corresponding pictures.
And then, as if waking up and forgetting what he just wrote about, he again builds all his further fantasies around the MTLBU chassis.
Well, the passage of the author in the final looks quite interesting. Having written the entire article about the 122-mm MLRS, he begins to draw conclusions regarding the 9K57 "Hurricane". Why and why? Personally, I never understood.

[Scharnhorst]

Thank you for your comment, but I can't thank you for your attention. In the text "Peony" is not mentioned even once. His built-in photo is inserted to illustrate the engineering solution for stabilizing a heavier system with lowering the guide wheel to the ground, which is also applicable for MT-LB.

There are thousands of them in the troops and arsenals, and therefore any idea of ​​​​modernization / replacement is simply inseparable from the issue of cheapness and ensuring mass production.

And here truth and justice are on your side. The 130-mm MLRS and the MTLB chassis will appear only as a new combat vehicle, provided that the old copies no longer meet the requirements of the current situation. Modernization of the "Basurmanin" type from the BMP-1 from storage is not offered

[anzar]

...to illustrate the engineering solution for stabilizing a heavier system with the guide wheel lowered to the ground, which is also applicable for MT-LB.

New MTLBs are not produced in Russia. In Bulgaria, too, in Poland and Ukraine, I don’t know, probably not.
And for cash, lower the wheel and change the engine, especially move it back ... why? It’s not cheap, why is MTLB so good, 7mm armor?)) Yes, and the chassis load capacity is low.

[sifgame]

The plant in Murom of JSC Muromteplovoz in the list of products is MTLB https://muromteplovoz.ru/product/mil.php. I don’t know if they actually release it, but they probably can if they order it. There is also an IZGT plant in Irkutsk that produces a similar conveyor.

[D16]

Everything has long been thought of. "Zeiledelie" in caliber 140mm with block loading is used by the troops. There is almost everything you need, except for the armored cab. I think that the creation of a long-range guided missile based on the existing one will not take much time. The system may well be multi-caliber, like Hymars.

[Bogalex]

"ZeМice making" [suggested edit - B] in caliber 140mm with block loading is used by the troops

Links?

The system may well be multi-caliber, like Hymars

Can't be. The architecture for building American and Soviet / Russian MLRS is fundamentally different.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

With an increase in caliber, the weight of ammunition also increases, and there already now everything is at the limit of human capabilities, if without mechanization.
And about the architecture is not entirely true. We also have a bicaliber (220 mm / 300 mm) Uragan-1M multiple launch rocket system.

[Bogalex]

In the Uragan-1M MLRS, the bicaliber is somewhat different and consists only in the ability to use either such a package or another.
MLRS and its derivatives, in addition to having the same ability, can also be "played" with the RS caliber inside the same package - their inner diameter of the pipe is larger than the diameter of the projectile. Therefore, in the same regular TPK, for example, both 227-mm RS and 236-mm RS of the M28 type can be placed.

[D16]

caliber 140mm with block loading is used by the troops

"A launcher is mounted on the base chassis for replaceable blocks of launch guides. Each block carries 25 missiles. The complex also includes a transport-loading vehicle designed to transport and replace blocks.
"Agriculture" uses specially designed 140-mm unguided rockets with a cluster warhead." (c)
https://topwar.ru/192412-isdm-zemledelie-idet-v-vojska.html

Can not be.

From what? The length of the chassis will allow the use of blocks with missiles from the "Solntsepeka", "Grad" or "Hurricane", if such can be done. There will just be fewer missiles.

[garri-lin]

Didn't see the most important thing. Economic justification and its comparison with the analysis of efficiency growth.
Regarding the reasonable modernization of the Grad:
1. Kit for anti-fragmentation booking of the cab.
2. Communication and geolocation at the modern level. With integration into the "information battlefield".
3. Ammunition with a drone.
That's actually all. An old, time-tested, but perfectly performing weapon. Here we apply the principle: The best is the enemy of the good. The city is definitely good.

[agond]

We look at the 122-mm unguided rocket 9M522 with a detachable high-explosive fragmentation warhead ... we see - the detachable part occupies only 14-15% of the length of the rocket, the rest of the place is occupied by a very long engine, and a jet nozzle with a diameter of less than 120mm, .then there is no increase in engine thrust and it is impossible to radically improve the ballistics of a rocket, by the way, a long rocket loses to a shorter one in terms of technical perfection in weight return.
In order to improve the characteristics of the projectile, it would be correct to use a mortar launch of missiles, that is, a package with guide tubes should stand on the ground approximately like a mortar. True, guided missiles will be required. By the way, the mortar method will allow you to shoot both rockets and mines.

[Barberry25]

and what exactly will the advantage be expressed in? and give examples of such MLRS

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Self-propelled artillery installation Maisanta YZR (Venezuela)

From LNG-9, you can also build something similar.

[Barberry25]

Well, it's still a perversion, you know.

[garri-lin]

I'm sorry, but what you said is completely absurd. A mortar launch for MLRS is definitely not suitable.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

I gave you a "+" for the initiative, but a similar installation, ground-based, already exists. SPG-9 "Spear" mounted anti-tank grenade launcher is a rocket with a mortar launch. And the range of firing with mounted fire is very solid 4500 m, with an OG-9V fragmentation grenade.

[Amateur]

Isn't it time for us to take a swing at our classic - BM-21 "Grad"

After reading this opus, associations with the level of amateur drama theater -100%

[Bogalex]

What the author, to his credit, does not hide

[Amateur]

What the author, to his credit, does not hide

Well, today is December 1st, not April 1st.

[Bogalex]

Amateur drama theaters operate all year round.

[Zaurbek]

If you look closely at the competitors, then:
1. It is necessary to resolve the issue with the equipment (package, equipped at the factory or leave it as it is by the piece)
2. Unify packages in the Urals and MZKT (respectively 1 package and 2 packages)
3. Deal with calibers 122, 220, 300mm
4. Make a single seeker with Glonnas (with the addition of laser guidance). For all calibers.
5. Make a "large" rocket of 600mm in the dimensions of a standard package
6. The Urals have standard armored cabs in 1 and 2 row versions. You need to start putting on all cars. And MLRS and tractors

[Sancho_SP]

About GSN - you write correctly. It is possible and not only for RSZO, by the way.

As for packages, piece loading has one big plus - a crane is not needed.

[Zaurbek]

If you think about it, then a BR 300-500km with a "cheap" seeker, without problems, would not interfere with Iskander right now. There is no need to bypass air defense, the accuracy is good, the power is the same. Yes, package equipment would not hurt Iskander himself. And it’s easier to store expensive missiles and equip

[Sancho_SP]

It's muddy with Iskander. The complex has several different missiles, sometimes fundamentally different (cruised and ballistic, for example). Therefore, in general, only the size of the rocket unites them.

[Zaurbek]

You can’t replace the CD and you don’t need to. And the BR is expensive there and with an expensive seeker (there are both optics and brains and radar guidance to another) It recognizes target images there .... and flies with overloads so that missile defense would not be shot down .... in general, for complex and protected air defense and missile defense targets - that’s it ....... but for the second third wave, as it is now, in my opinion, it’s redundant. And Hymars' analogue - ATAMKS - is quite suitable for itself. They gave the coordinates, and added greetings to the GOS.

[novel66]

As long as we have aircraft firing NAR from a pitch-up, all this is not very necessary

[Sergei N 58912062]

In the NWO in Ukraine, aviation is somehow not very good. Works artillery and MLRS.

[garri-lin]

I disagree with the GOS for the caliber 122 mm. Suddenly it turns out Hermes. Why produce entities??? Yes, and the game is not worth the candle. At these ranges and with such a warhead. Krasnopol with GLONASS looks more logical.

[Guran33 Sergey]

Armored cabs, serious ones, have weight and the front axle of the Urals with a diesel engine is already at the load limit, so you have to switch to a four-axle chassis

[Zaurbek]

They are shown in 3-bridge and 4-bridge versions ... maybe the 9tn bridges are Chinese. Ural is preparing, by the way, to launch the production of bridges.

[Sergei N 58912062]

Three-axle chassis of the Urals with an armored cab. TOS-2 "Tosochka" is almost the same MLRS on the chassis of the Urals with three axles with an armored cab.

[Sergei N 58912062]

1. Batch, as in the MLRS "Kama" and "Hurricane-1M".
5. We have the Iskander OTRK; its rocket is superior to that of its competitors.
I generally agree with the rest of the points.

[Zaurbek]

, The fact that it is superior - no one argues ... But it is more expensive and now one hears talk about the mass production of such missiles (money - figs with them, but how many BR pieces per month can we make?). And there are targets for the first strikes (protected air defense and missile defense), and there are targets for the second, third wave. For which you just need high-precision missiles and a lot.

[Alexander_Dneprovsky]

I see no reason to remake the Grad under the MT-LB base. The only thing you can do is book the cabin and add a removable awning to disguise it as a truck.
Also implement 300 mm MLRS, but with 6 guides, as on Kama, only based on the Urals.
Hurricane, of course, is superfluous in the MLRS park, they are in reserve for storage.

[Sancho_SP]

MLRS like a hurricane just needs to be used en masse, and not 1-2 missiles. Then the meaning of large installations on a special chassis is clear.

[Barberry25]

what does it mean in large numbers? do you see tank divisions on the offensive? high-precision is now driving, so accurate and long-range shells are needed. in stock .. this is what you need to build on.

[Sancho_SP]

No need to touch the calibers, especially so mediocre. The city has its own niche (yes, in the same place where spg-9, rapier, etc. - but they are at war!), 13% will not affect this and will not bring it to a new level.

The solution is already there and done - a two-caliber system. You want hail at close range, you want far away with a hurricane.

[solar]

In my opinion, the author has an incorrect assessment of the situation.
Now there is a clear trend towards the transition from MLRS to multi-purpose launchers with guided munitions. At the same time, the requirement for the number of guides is reduced (why they can no longer be attributed to the MLRS - their main use is by no means salvo fire), since no salvo is required.
However, there are obvious advantages.
1. The range of application is increased, which is safer for launchers, more dangerous for the enemy and reduces the requirements for the number of launchers. With guided missiles, you can stand far enough from the front line and block a wide area with a quick response to the appearance of targets according to intelligence or advanced units and groups. DRGs that have leaked across the front line should not carry heavy weapons with them - they found a target, transmitted data to the launcher - and in a matter of minutes the target will be hit, after which the launcher will quickly change position and is ready to fire again.
2. Lack of salvo - reduces the time to change positions, which increases the safety of the launcher.
3. Reservation is needed, first of all, not against enemy DRGs wandering in the rear, but for protection against fragments during counter-battery combat. The probability of a direct or very close hit by the enemy is relatively low, and in a few minutes the launcher will roll up and leave the enemy’s zone of fire.
4. The long range of guided projectiles makes it easier to choose a position and reduces the requirements for carrier patency. The farther from the front line, the easier it is to find a convenient position or a convenient route of movement to it.
5. For guided projectiles, large calibers are preferable for obvious reasons, the price of the seeker is the same, and the warhead is larger.

[Sancho_SP]

And how much is the GSN now? There are suspicions that no matter how large a rocket is already more expensive.

[solar]

It is expensive enough to make it unprofitable to put it on ammunition with a small warhead.
Much more profitable - more warheads. Which suggests a larger caliber.

[Sancho_SP]

Well so tsiferki that is? It is clear that homing is more expensive than its absence) But two hurricane missiles (conditionally) with homing against one tornado missile (conditionally) with homing?

[solar]

Regardless of the specific figures, the transition to controlled ones must begin with large calibers. A more expensive rocket, longer range, more warheads - it makes sense to reduce their consumption in the first place. Until they switched to controlled large calibers, it makes no sense to talk about the transition of small ones.

[Sancho_SP]

I'm not sure that there will be a "transition" with the alteration of existing missiles. New ones will be made. And it would be very interesting to know the price ratio.

[solar]

Whatever the prices for GOS, it is more profitable to use them primarily on missiles of larger calibers, if only because
1. They require space - and this is a reduction in warheads.
2. In any case, a larger caliber is more expensive - and controlled ones - a decrease in ammunition consumption.

[alexmach]

I support both of you, both are right. And the question about prices is far from idle. The Smerch unguided rocket itself is no longer a cheap thing, perhaps, against the background of its price, the cost of a "simple" and mass seeker may not be large.

[Barberry25]

not controlled, but high-precision .. these are different things

[solar]

various. In this case, controlled high-precision.

[Barberry25]

But what’s the point of making it manageable? You can, of course, make a child prodigy out of Grad so that one rocket is one tank or infantry fighting vehicle, but this is the next stage .. Now the main thing is to provide navigation, a ballistic computer and reaction time to an impact. All this can be implemented through a combat tablet with a navigator function , a ballistic radio communication computer for transmitting coordinates, this was partially solved already within the framework of Tornado-G .. strikes on a laser control center can also be realized in theory, but you need to understand how much it will result in .. there, all the same, the price is already higher and it makes sense to give birth to this horse, if Tornado-G can already provide acceptable accuracy of defeat.

[Timur_kz]

In fact, laser guidance is one of the cheapest implementations of the seeker, much more expensive than infrared, and even more so radar. As for the satellite seeker, I’m not sure, we have some insurmountable obstacles with this, we only have it in the Kyrgyz Republic, and in smaller calibers it’s not audible or visible ...

[Barberry25]

just heard and seen: 9M542 from Tornado-S .. and they fly and hit the target.

[Timur_kz]

Yes, this Tornado-S is just not heard and not seen. In open sources, only the same text about the capabilities of the MLRS and a video of the preparation of the complex in Ukraine walks. How effective and accurate it is - there are no materials from either experts or military correspondents. In our information age, any effective weapon immediately becomes media, an example of the same Lancet. Silence about Tornado-S! Either there are not enough missiles, or the declared performance characteristics are not confirmed.

[Barberry25]

You confused warm and soft ... How can Tornado-S provide you with a video recording? And yes .. enter 9m542 application in Kramatorsk in the search and you will have a video ... learn to work with information

[Sancho_SP]

You eat hail from the wrong side.

They need to be modernized so that where one shell would fly before, after modernization two would fly. The number of cars in the battery, the speed of loading, etc.

[solar]

At the Grad, shells do not arrive one at a time, this is pointless.

[Sancho_SP]

The formula for multiplying by two well) where it was 10, there are 20. Where there are 100, there are 200 ...

[Barberry25]

first you need to ensure that the projectile arrives where you are aiming + automation .. this will already create a bunch of problems for the enemy

[Sancho_SP]

RSZO has some specifics here. A lot of shells are launched at once and, although each specific one has low accuracy, with the required density of fire, each target gets on average.

It is quite obvious that this is economically justified only in the case of a high density of targets on the ground.

[Barberry25]

and yes and no .. Tornado-G provides a range of up to 40 km .. and only Malka can provide from the receiver .. Moreover, Tornado-G can, in fact, put all missiles at one point .. but there is dispersion up to 90 meters. for destruction fortifications need accuracy, therefore it makes sense to develop high-precision missiles for Grad / Tornado-G

[futurohunter]

MLRS are designed primarily to hit area targets

[Plover]

I do not presume to argue about which calibers are needed and which are not. But from my layman's point of view, the following is equally important:
- implementation of the batch principle of loading ammunition. The packages must be disposable and must be installed without the help of any "loading machines".
- development of a universal launcher so that it can be installed on different chassis - tracked and wheeled
- the ability to equip packages with different calibers and types of ammunition. Then you can flexibly decide what and when to apply

[Barberry25]

batch loading is important only for the charging speed .. when "well, it’s locked up for a long time and a lot" .. it makes no sense to make packages for this. especially disposable ones, your shooting will be golden in fact. What does "universal launcher" mean? stops, but not for the caterpillar ... About "packages with different calibers" .. sorry, but where will they charge? At the Factory? Or in the fields? a separate feeder .. But seriously, we have no problems with loading the MLRS, we have problems with accuracy, since the MLRS is a machine for hitting areas, and now we need to work pointwise .. we need new shells and electronics

[Plover]

batch charging is only important for charging speed

Not only. Packages can be left in advance in places where you need to recharge. But you need to go to the charging car on purpose. Plus, these loading cars are not "one piece per shooting", which means that the loading car should be next to the warehouse. The warehouse should be relatively close, and sooner or later a nearby warehouse will be found and beaten on it (which we see regularly). A "batch" container may well be cheap - it's plastic and metal, with enough strength for a specific number of shots.

What does "universal launcher" mean?

By launcher, I meant the launcher. So that it can be put on both tracked and wheeled chassis. And if necessary, transfer from one to another in the field or in a repair plant.

About "packages with different calibers" .. sorry, but where will they charge? At the Factory? Or in the fields? Then it makes sense to make a separate TZM with the ability to quickly charge .. so that there is a separate feeder for each guide ..

Tubes are produced at the plant, which must be identified by the fire control system. But the package can be assembled anywhere, because. these are just guides:

we have no problems with loading the MLRS, we have problems with accuracy, since the MLRS is a machine for strikes on squares

I'm not sure that charging the MLRS does not affect the ability to do more work with fewer vehicles. It seems to me that the Soviet concept of MLRS is becoming obsolete. Now it is relevant to create a platform that can launch guided and unguided missiles, depending on the need. Is it possible to count a volley of MLRS guided missiles? Someone says no, because. MLRS is precisely areal work without much accuracy. As for me, this is still a MLRS, because. shelling is carried out in one gulp from one carrier.

[Barberry25]

1) what does it mean to charge "in advance", Tornado-g implements the principle of coordinates for each rocket .. i.e. already now it makes no sense to launch a whole package at a target when you can launch several missiles ... it turns out that you need to underload a whole plastic bag for launch? will be engaged in such accounting? Regarding "you can prepare the packages separately and fold them, but the warehouse can be covered ... I'll reveal a terrible secret, but no one ever rides a hail to a warehouse for shells - for this there are dispersal of warehouses in the front-line zone., Not to mention the fact that TZMs are not needed for Grads. Further, since when do we have one car responsible for a strike at 10 km and for a strike at 2 km? These are different goals for different cars .. count how much the Grad chassis costs and how much the Hurricane or Tornado chassis and estimate what instead of the chassis of the Grad, you should have only the chassis of the Tornado

[Plover]

1) what does it mean to charge "in advance", Tornado-g implements the principle of coordinates for each missile .. i.e. already now it makes no sense to launch a whole package at a target when you can launch several missiles ... it turns out that you need to underload a whole plastic bag for launch? will be engaged in such accounting?

I don't understand your misunderstanding. How about in Tornado-G? If you need to launch 2 rockets, only two are charged, and then they return to the BC replenishment point and charge 4 more? It's the same with packages. But we talked a little about different things. Caliber Tornado-G, of course, does not require any packages. Can a BC replenishment point be organized under any "bush" (although it can be faster to load it with a package)? Batch charging makes sense exactly where you can’t do without TZM, i.e. choice or TZM or batch download. And a common launcher for different chassis, of course, for one caliber, and not in such a way that it would be possible to "shoot" missiles from both Tornado-G and Tornado-S.

[Barberry25]

the fact of the matter is that if you use batch loading, then you need to make full-fledged launchers, which will be like usual for Grad or, say, Hurricane, but if you make "cheap plastic ones for several launches", then hemorrhoids begin with controlling the number of launches from each guide. There are no problems with charging now, in principle, they loaded the missiles at the temporary ammunition supply point, the Grad / Tornado arrived, they equipped it, it went further, and there are already options based on the same Kamaz 8 * 8 in which the MLRS carries a second package. Here is the question .. but what is the point in accelerated reloading? It's one thing as in the photo - 2 minutes will be, with the old 7 minutes .. SEMI Karl. Those. for a caliber of 122 mm, it makes no sense to make packages, there are versions of a caliber of 220 and 300 mm .. Tornado has 35 minutes, I think that Hurricane has plus or minus the same amount, BUT in this case, if such a booze has gone, it makes sense to mechanize charging additionally i.e. already in the TZM, implement the principle of multiple charges, so that the machine itself loads the missiles in a row, and not one by one with a crane .. it will make sense, and then you need to understand that we are talking about 220/300 mm caliber systems, which usually work on very important applications for artillery regiments and above.. i.e. fitting them to the very front is usually not accepted. In principle, it will be enough to develop, in the most extreme case, a workable "hand" of a robot crane, which, according to the marks, will understand where to load it

[Plover]

if you use batch loading, then you need to make full-fledged launchers, which will be like usual for Grad or, say, Hurricane, but if you do "cheap plastic for several launches", then hemorrhoids begin with controlling the number of launches from each guide

You don't seem to understand. See how it is implemented in HIMARS. Launcher and loader + missile package.

In principle, it will be enough to develop, in the most extreme case, a workable "hand" of a robot crane, which, according to the marks, will understand where to load it

Option. But to remove the "link" of the TZM, in my opinion, is more correct. Firstly, it will give flexibility in the use of different means by one platform (like HIMARS with ATACMS or GMLRS and without involving other means or people, only by the forces of the HIMARS crew itself). Secondly, Ukrainian counter-fighting capabilities are one thing, but NATO itself is another. It's like in the sport of high achievements - it's not seconds and tenths that decide, but hundredths of a second. Everything is optimized to zero.

[Barberry25]

well, then it will be necessary to redo the system very much .. and it’s one thing for 220 mm rockets, and we have 330 mm rockets .. there the crane will have to be huge .. and all for the sake of a theoretical benefit in time, it’s better not to produce unnecessary entities

[bulat]

It is necessary to switch to salvo launch systems for loitering ammunition. The target designator comes first, then relatively inexpensive shells with Glonass target designation

[Sancho_SP]

And then you need a highly intelligent artificial intelligence that can quickly identify, designate and transmit information about targets. Well, or 24 operators at once)

[Sergei N 58912062]

The Chinese have something similar. Barrage Swarm complex and loitering ammunition CH-901.

[Mikhail Maslov]

How tired of the "specialists". Now, if only it was necessary, but what did they think. The author proceeds from what is at the front. Is there a real proposal? Putting the package on the MTLB is not a fact that it is better than the Urals or the Belarusian Maz. But you can and should learn from the Syrians how to make lethal rocket launchers from Gradov shells.

[wladimirjankov]

MLRS Grad-21, like a hurricane, naturally became obsolete over a 60-year period of use. SVO showed this clearly. Accuracy, power, range, target designation, security do not meet modern requirements. We burn a lot, constantly, but we don’t see much use. From the top of the drone, a large spread of missiles from targets and unimpressive firing results are clearly visible. It is necessary to improve the powder in the engine, the explosive in the warhead to enhance its power, significantly reduce the circular deviation of missiles, fully automate target designation, coordinate calculation and launch. If the circular deviation cannot be improved without the GOS, then it must be set. There is no point in simply shooting at squares in white light. A lot of noise, but good.

[futurohunter]

MLRS missile with GOS will immediately become "gold"

[Sergei Kazarin]

This is if the level of mathematics is grade 5 and does not take into account the cost of logistics, accuracy and other things.

[Guran33 Sergey]

Discourses, a necessary thing, but before the end of the operation no one will take drastic steps in the field of armaments, perhaps new items suitable for the tasks of the NWO will come, but these will be before operational planned, possibly accelerated products. Ideas need to be put forward, suddenly (well, we fantasize) some engineer, looking into couch arguments, will catch something necessary

[Owl]

About the "petal" - they ran over, pulled out the "fang" of the lugs on the wheel of the BTR-80, the centralized pumping system was not required.

[Andrey0301]

The main problem now is target detection and response time. A hail volley costs about 6 thousand dollars, a Hymars volley is 190 thousand, you can cover much more targets for this money, but it looks perfect to increase survivability and reduce dispersion by switching to MTLB, plus guidance automation

[Guran33 Sergey]

Two obvious solutions - hydraulically sliding crane supports and increased rigidity and possibly lengthening of the guides

[Arigin]

It is urgent to design and put into mass production a new guided projectile with a firing range equal to or greater than the firing range of the 155-mm barrel artillery (50+ km.). No GOS, only SINS + SNS. Will work in one gulp on the columns of LBT and art. positions (which Grad can still do now, but with greater accuracy and at a greater range). The new projectile should be optimal in terms of "range", "power", "quantity in the package", "cost". If you need to change to a caliber of 130-140 mm, then you need to do it without regrets. I hope such work is already underway (in three shifts).

[Nikolaevich I]

Like it... don't like it! Just a joke: “I don’t understand you, Petrovs! You don’t like my offer, but your wife really likes it!” In 1969, the Chinese "liked" the "Grad" so much that they dug up the planet to "dig up" the "Grad" for themselves! The Turks so boasted of their 122-mm MLRS that the UAE immediately acquired a 122-mm "monstrous" MLRS (240 "barrels" ... "Jobaria"! It is known that at one time "Grad" "gave" motives to the military world when creating new MLRS! An example is 2 "Foreign" systems: 1.Italian 40-charge 122-mm MLRS "FIROS-25/30"

And ....: 2. Spanish 40-round 140-mm MLRS "TERIEL-3"!

In South Africa, they thought: “Grad” is hail in Africa (!) ... and made a 40-charge 127-mm MLRS “VALKIRI”

Well, the South African MLRS does not live up to the desires of the author-critic "Gradov", but the Spanish 140-mm "Teruel-3" ... this is what the "doctor ordered"! You can recall that the 140-mm MLRS BM-14 were also in service with the SA! But the Israelis went their ... "Moses" way (!) And introduced a 160-mm MLRS! They really wanted to shoot 155-mm artillery shells with rockets! Well, 155-mm artillery shells were not useful, but 160 mm became a rocket "trick" in Israel! 160 mm took root not only in the MLRS, but also in "aircraft", etc. !

LAR-160

[Arigin]

Grad, at one time, successfully embodied the concept of "simply-reliably-effectively" (that's why there are so many imitators), but time does not stand still, it would be high time to roll out a kind of "Grad 2.0", in which the same principle is implemented on a qualitatively new technical level. But, apparently, the Chinese - the Turks - the Israelis will do it (and guess who will immediately start begging for themselves). And there is no need to talk about the "bicaliber Hurricane", it never existed and does not exist, and Tornado-S, although it is very good, but there are few of them and it has a different niche.

[Timur_kz]

Let's not invent another "analogue". The SVO showed where and from whom the design idea developed, and where it parasitized on the Soviet legacy. Moreover, analogues of the chimera and MRLs were created in Russia, these are Kama and Uragan-1M. They just need to be brought to mind. Finally, develop a sane GOS for GLONASS. It can be supplemented with a 220 mm package, there will be 18 pieces for Kama and 36 for Uragan-1M. It is possible, and even necessary, to implement a planning detachable ammunition that Boeing wants to implement for Ukraine. It is possible even on a laser seeker. Illuminate from a drone and right into the dugout from a distance of 150-160 km! No Krasnopol will fly. A relatively cheap long arm will appear, which is not so terrible counter-battery fire. Enough gushing ideas, we must admit the lag and not be shy to adopt advanced concepts and weapons.

[Vladimir Postnikov]

Something more or less sane at the end. I couldn't read all the comments. They argue about running gear, about booking, about anything, but not about shells. But Timur also gets garbage.

Quote: Timur_kz

Moreover, analogues of the chimera and MRLs were created in Russia, these are Kama and Uragan-1M.

Like, what is the market about? But then everything went wrong again:

They just need to be brought to mind. Finally, develop a sane GOS for GLONASS. It can be supplemented with a 220 mm package, there will be 18 pieces for Kama and 36 for Uragan-1M. It is possible, and even necessary, to implement a planning detachable ammunition that Boeing wants to implement for Ukraine. It is possible even on a laser seeker. Illuminate from a drone and right into the dugout from a distance of 150-160 km! No Krasnopol will fly. A relatively cheap long arm will appear, which is not so terrible counter-battery fire.

So created, or "need to bring to mind"? If something needs to be "developed", then it must be further developed. "Can" is just "can". And "need" is already more specific, because "need" is someone who needs it. What if he doesn't need to? Again it is possible. And highlight - is it necessary, or is it possible? "Appear" or not appear.
So are analogues created, or not created?

Quote: Timur_kz

Stop gushing ideas, I must admit

what they did with effective managers both in the creation of weapons and in their production (a separate sore point, which is practically not discussed here, which is not surprising), and in tactics. Tactics directly depends on weapons. Old weapons - old tactics. That's how effective managers in the same Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation helped? Developed a new tactic for sawing trampolines? Yes, she is as old as the world.

[Diverter]

Some commentators, of course, are smoking something quite zaboristoe)))))

[Diverter]

According to the article.
some thoughts are correct, but the answer is wrong.
1. The installation of MLRS on a motorized league is probably needed, but only for arming the divisions of the Northern Military District.
2. Tornado G needs to put an armored cab.
3. Everything has already been thought up before the author of the article. Grad upgraded to Tornado G,
and 220 and 300 were combined into one package MLRS.
As the resources of the old are developed, new ones will enter the troops.
4. the author is right in the issue of car patency. Replacing the chassis from the Urals to Kamaz (BM 27) is stupidity. And also right on the armored cab.
5. All the best and a speedy VICTORY!

[Sergei Kazarin]

Leave only Tornnado-S and make it cheap on the Kamaz chassis with a loading system like that of Himars.
MLRS with a range of up to 40 km is minuscule

[d4rkmesa]

KAMAZ-s are none in terms of mine and bullet protection, only if as a temporary solution. Tornado-S is expensive and ammunition for it is essentially produced artisanally (well, that is, you still need to develop new ones, you can, for example, refuse to rotate and cut ammunition along the length), however, the developed control systems can be used.

[7gor]

Satellite reconnaissance decides everything! Theater of operations in Ukraine proved! That's what you need to do first!

[d4rkmesa]

There is a reasonable grain in your reasoning ... Hurricanes are outdated, cluster munitions are ineffective against modern, less numerous, but more mobile and equipped with SIBZ infantry. They don't want to attack in thick chains, scoundrels, they want to live. ) DoD and stakeholders must finally decide what they want. I will humbly assume that the priority should be hitting targets, and not shooting "in areas" as they liked in the Moscow Region. Be that as it may, it is the customer who must determine the appearance, requirements, even the sketch of the new MLRS - everything must come from the customer. There are like different Central Research Institutes, GRAU and others, why not do it? Rostec, of course, must do exactly what the customer requires of it, and not issue a set of crutches at the exit.

[Parvis rasulov]

The author does not build, the only thing the BM 21 Grad needs is a stable platform with a base plate, so that there would not be much dispersion with a full salvo of 40 barrels. As for the BM27 Uragan, she needs to replace the ZIL carrier itself and make the base plates hydraulic, it is best for the BM 27 to use the base from the Vityaz air defense system to the BAZ, well, expand the range of ammunition, including long-range and correctable
[Center]

[ForWar34]

Tracked MLRS is not needed. Reservation and tracks will greatly slow down, respectively, such systems in the frontline zone will be destroyed by drones on the way with an explosion of ammunition or guides will be damaged on the way out. Also, with the reduced speed, the element of surprise will also decrease. MLRS is rather a means of stopping enemy breakthroughs, when moving along relatively good roads in their immediate rear, they can strike.

Rather, camouflage is needed so that the UAV or DRG cannot immediately distinguish whether an MLRS or a cargo Ural is walking along the highway or standing by the road, and ideally a civilian truck in general. It may be possible to provide for the option of resetting the guides after firing, followed by leaving the position at a higher speed.

Volley control from the cockpit is not necessary, but remote control of 500 meters can be provided for such a tactic - MLRS drives up to the place of the volley, the crew gets out, removes the optional disguise as a truck, takes out the remote control and leaves the place of the volley, MLRS makes guidance, gives volley, optionally resets the guides and drives at full speed, controlled by the remote control for the driver who has already gone 500 m into the depths, picks up the crew along the way and drives further on manual control. This reduces the risk of losses when the crew of a stationary MLRS is hit at a salvo position.

By MLRS here we mean a relatively cheap installation of not very accurate and not very long-range salvo fire, and not an expensive high-precision long-range system that can fire in one gulp.

[Private SA]

Quote: Arigin

In South Africa, they thought: “Grad” is hail in Africa (!) ... and made a 40-charge 127-mm MLRS “VALKIRI”

They are dreams

[storm]

- Redundancy for the Armed Forces of one country of the presence of three calibers of multiple launch rocket systems.

- Primitive MLRS "Grad" at the level of weapons of the Second World War.

- The defenselessness of the wheeled chassis of the MLRS "Grad" from being hit by any type of weapon.

- Low power and range of 122-mm ammunition and a narrow niche for combat use.

- Outdated automobile chassis with a gasoline engine MLRS "Hurricane".

It is clear that the author wants to solve many of the accumulated problems of the Soviet MLRS created for the "big war" with one new caliber of 130 mm, where they should be used by entire regiments and brigades, die dozens per month and be produced in double quantity on standard serial truck chassis.
About ten years ago, we were shown a single platform of the URAGAN-1M MLRS.
In my opinion, this machine has solid advantages, but it was released in the amount of one battery:
- Lighter and more passable on bridges and public roads than the monsters called "Tornado-S".
Interchangeable packages for weapons allow the use of all ammunition for MLRS available in warehouses.
Mass production of the Tornado-M MLRS with increased range and accuracy up to 40 km, as well as the development of guided munitions, solves the issue of providing regiment / brigade units with powerful fire support.
Whether a caliber of 220mm is needed, I strongly doubt, especially if there is a serial 300mm, which surpasses 220mm in all respects.
The presence of interchangeable blocks will allow using huge stocks of 1/122/220mm rockets from the new Hurricane 300-M chassis.
Further development of the MLRS should most likely go by reducing the range of ammunition produced to two calibers of 122 and 300 mm.
The first regiment / brigade / division for the unit,
The second for level formations is the corps, army, military district.
A significant share of the output (20-40%), especially in the caliber 300 mi, should be guided munitions with a range of up to 200 km.

[Fangaro]

Sunny fraternal Bulgaria...
It was fraternal. Now it's just sunny.
Turks came - we are Slavs!
The Germans came - we are Europeans.
This is not about the Bulgarians, of course, about the authorities.
Ordinary people rarely go on a hike to their neighbor according to their Wishlist.

[futurohunter]

Divannost author climbs out of all the cracks. He proposes to increase the caliber to a very strange 130mm (which will generally give). And he didn’t even bother to ask about the history of the MLRS - we had the BM-14 MLRS with a caliber of 140mm!

By the way, the Chinese still use them))
And the "Katyusha" caliber was 132mm!
Nevertheless, "Grads" with a "smaller" caliber of 122mm successfully replaced them!
Maybe it's not the caliber at all?

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

The South Koreans have 131 mm rockets for their old K136 MLRS (the machine itself looks purely Grad, only on an American truck), flying with a 20-kg warhead for 36 km. Moreover, this is a development of 1988.

[Cartridge]

It's disgusting to read. The author knows nothing about the system other than Internet information. For him, there is not even a difference in the concept of "calculation" and "crew". He knows nothing about the tasks of the MLRS GRAD, HURRICANE and SMERCH! Knows nothing about all the ammunition used! He does not understand that these systems do not work on the front line, which means that they do not need armor (after a volley, they go to the loading area). Any "armor" costs several times more than a slightly converted truck. NOTHING TO SPEND MONEY!). I still understand if I considered extending the cabin to accommodate the entire crew inside for the BM-21! And yes, I support the idea of ​​the need for a cabin body kit with steel sheets. Just in case, I tell you, comrade author, that GRAD and URAGAN belong to artillery, and Tornado is already missile systems. Only in this ugly SVO systems are used separately, or in a platoon, but should be in a battery. Then the air defense will not have enough channels of destruction. All this was laid down during development, and modern "wise men" are "before the lamp", while others do not have enough shells. I agree with the author that the wheeled chassis of the Uragan MLRS is hopelessly outdated. I never liked it, especially two engines that are ready to "kill each other" at any moment when they are out of sync. And I will say briefly about the accuracy of enemy systems: they inflict fire raids only for the time being, when our politicians allow us to "extinguish" the constellation of satellites for GPS. And then all their rockets and missiles will be worse than "flying scrap". By the way, flamethrower systems belong to the RKhBZ troops, but not to the MFA! It's a different story.

[d4rkmesa]

Those. batteries of "Grads" should roll out in a row, as in exercises and hit targets (or what do you mean when talking about tasks)? But they don't, they're scoundrels. For such "fat" targets as a whole division of "Grads", "Chimeras" and high-precision projectiles will fly almost immediately, which is why they dive through landings and shelters.

[Cartridge]

The battery must be deployed on a front of 300-500m, and not as you are used to in exercises 80. Moreover, the OP must be prepared, with landmarks set. Then the simultaneous departure, occupation and readiness check - 2-3 minutes. Carrying out a fire raid (from the system) and leaving the OP - 3-4 minutes. With all the calculations carried out, taking into account the operation of the control system and enemy fire weapons, this time is enough to avoid a retaliatory raid. If you are no longer expected at this place (multiple use of one OP). It's just that the people who are serving now do not have good training and did not conduct combat coordination with the units. Everything is "running" - a minimum of knowledge and skills, just to survive. In the headquarters of the armies, 80% of the officers do not have a higher military education - only a school (university). Well, the tasks of GRADs are to defeat the accumulation (!) of enemy ZhS and OS and lightly armored vehicles, as well as the performance of tasks by special b / p. Tasks are performed to the depth of connection tasks - msd (td), omsbr (otbr). I think you know the dimensions of the connection tasks.

[d4rkmesa]

Well, in general, it is clear what you mean. It's not even that the current BTG will not be able to do this, but some alternative tactics are also needed.

[would]

He does not understand that these systems do not work on the front line, which means that they do not need armor (after a volley, they go to the loading area).

Then why are there so many photos and reports on the Internet with destroyed equipment, including Grads?

You may not be aware, but the car can be fired upon while moving. Including when leaving for the loading area, enemy agents can report on its approximate route, including it can be seen from UAVs, etc. So whole columns were destroyed and will be destroyed further.

[Cartridge]

You never know on the Internet (on the fence) they write and draw! I won't argue, it's useless. The situations described for the attack of the DRG are possible, especially in the absence of the work of the formations of the Russian Guard, the FSB and units of the territorial. defense (with a single command, according to a single plan, time and place) to control the occupied territory. I will not continue, otherwise I will reach impeachment.

[would]

Well, yes, "you never know" how much equipment was lost, and even more so people died ...

And I was not talking about the DRG at all, I meant it. First of all, it is the artillery shelling of equipment while moving, which happens literally all the time in Ukraine. Of course, no armor will save you from a direct hit, but it’s completely from fragments, it will make it possible to leave, or at worst, it will simply save lives.

[Yaroslav Tekkel]

Quote: Cartridge

He knows nothing about the tasks of the MLRS GRAD, HURRICANE and SMERCH!

All these tasks were not sent down from heaven on tablets, but were invented by sinful people in the conditions of 40-60 years ago. People tend to make mistakes, conditions change. Once upon a time, tasks were also seen for a mortar-shovel. Now it is already stupid and criminal to hold on to a strict pyramid of regimental / brigade / divisional / corps / army / front-line means (and God forbid someone climbs into someone else's plot). Now, ideally, all theater artillery should be linked into a single system. If a drone (or a reconnaissance group, or any other detector) suddenly spotted an enemy battery (and indeed any worthy target), it must be immediately hit by everything that is currently in range, charged and can open fire. Completely regardless of the theoretical purpose and formal subordination, without multi-level approvals almost through the General Staff. And in this regard, the greater the range of each gun or MLRS, the more of them at a given time will be able to cover the target.

Quote: Cartridge

He does not understand that these systems do not work on the front line, which means that they do not need armor (after a volley, they go to the loading area).

Just look at the footage of the consequences of the use of HIMARS missiles with fine tungsten shrapnel (available online). They are absolutely not shy about flying not only to the front line, but also far to the rear. People and unarmored vehicles are turned into a small colander. Armored vehicles get off with scratches.

Quote: Cartridge

And I will say briefly about the accuracy of enemy systems: they inflict fire raids only for the time being, when our politicians allow us to "extinguish" the constellation of satellites for GPS. And then all their rockets and missiles will be worse than "flying scrap".

This, of course, is not true. Even with the complete elimination (or jamming) of satellites, HIMARS rockets will use their ring laser gyroscopes. Of course, they will lose accuracy, and Biden’s initials will no longer be able to write out on the bridge canvas, but they will still remain high-precision weapons - much more accurate than non-modernized Tornadoes, for example.

[futurohunter]

A little more about the author's illiteracy, and why these articles are only suitable for articles on alternative history.
Let's start with the fact that the "motorcycle" - a Ukrainian product - was produced in Kharkov. You say that there are a lot of them at the bases - sooner or later they will end.
The armor protection of the MTLB is weak, I think it will be weaker than that of the BTR-80. The two main advantages of the motorcycle league are its amazing cross-country ability (it has no equal among military vehicles), and the layout that allows you to mount various installations on it - artillery, anti-aircraft, etc.
Here the author is very concerned about the protection of the crew. But at the front of the motorbike there is a driver and a commander, in the middle there is an engine. And he will have to place the bulky mechanics for the launcher in the same troop compartment, and carry the remaining crew (which he was going to protect) in another vehicle.
Regarding the MLRS base. In fact, all developers mount MLRS on a wheelbase. And even the Americans, suddenly "foolishly" transferred half of the launch MLRS to the wheelbase, having received the same HIMARS. Why? MLRS is not a front line vehicle that goes into battle along with tanks. She quickly moves into position, quickly fires off her ammunition and leaves. Well, if you need to carry a whole arsenal of missiles and shoot it directly at the enemy, then what does the "Sun" not like? This is the same MLRS that the author wants! Any dirt will pass and the shelling will withstand. And from the front line, it is necessary to shoot at the enemy within sight, and not fire at his rear. In addition to the MLRS, there is also aviation. By the way, with increasing range, the spread of missiles increases. And if you make missiles guided, the MLRS turns into an installation of operational-tactical missiles. And the meaning in shooting in volleys is lost. Behind enemy lines, it is necessary to hit specific point targets.
About pampering with calibers. In fact, any MLRS - even a Grad, even a Tornado, even a Hurricane, even a Sunflower appeared as a result of the serious work of large teams of professionals. So the "swing of the author" is the swing of a lone amateur against the serious work of the work of serious people. If you want to swing - let him play computer toys (or write his own)))

[d4rkmesa]

As for the "serious work of the work of serious people", why don't the most serious people give them the most serious TK in the teeth and make a more or less universal launcher, offering integration using standard interfaces for their Wishlist? Well, i.e. if you want to increase the production of ammunition for "Solntsepekov" - please, see the integration to the system and your package with your ammunition, typical. You don’t need 100500 different cars, on different, often unreasonably expensive chassis ala “nightmare fogging” (like Tornado-U - beautiful and MRAP, but a lot of imports and cost several times more than a bonneted truck with bullet and splinter protection ).

[storm]

Let's start with the fact that the "motorcycle" - a Ukrainian product - was produced in Kharkov.

The Muromteplovoz plant (Vladimir region) has a complete set of design and technological documentation, as well as experience in the repair and modernization of MT-Lb or motorcycle leagues.
A project of additional armor MT-Lb has been developed, providing all-round protection against bullets of 12,7 mm caliber, and this is much steeper than the protection of the BMP-2 or BTR-82.

[futurohunter]

In our history, unfortunately, there have already been lovers to increase calibers and declare other weapon systems unnecessary

Or even so:

It didn't lead to anything good.

[Bodipancher]

Armored cabin and the ability to fire a salvo without leaving the car. I drove up, aimed, fired a volley, on the gases and to reload. Quite enough.

[Valnik]

How much can you reload a package with one shell. Can the entire package with guides be rearranged from the TZM?

[Sergei N 58912062]

I agree, you need to change the recharge scheme. Batch reloading, as on the MLRS "Kama" and "Hurricane-1M".

[air wolf]

And why not install the Grad on the BTR-80 and make a loading machine out of them, this is much more convenient and faster. The caterpillar has a resource of no more than two thousand kilometers.

[Sergei N 58912062]

I believe that we do not need a new caliber (130 mm) . It is necessary to modernize and improve the existing ones (122,220,300 mm).
But the chassis of our MLRS would not hurt to change. Especially heavy MLRS "Hurricane" and "Tornado-S". There is KAMAZ, BAZ. And the caterpillar chassis, in addition to pluses, also has minuses! And they are not few!

[Gippo]

With all my heart I wish TC to stay in the NWO zone for at least a couple of months.
And then write these stories.
But he won’t go, he’s at home and has a soft sofa. That’s why what was written is not personal, but so ....
Well, on the topic, charge the Grad manually. Yes. Can. But Hurricane is not. and Death is not.

[GN]

I am generally a layman in jet installations. I know Katyusha. But I'm not talking about that. The Russian Defense Ministry is teeming with traitors and traitors. You will remember how these bumps with big stars almost did not buy the Mistral from the Nazis !! Thanks to the French for not selling. And how the MO Italian "Bobik" wanted to buy! And ukroreich should have been razed to the ground 10 months ago, they would have been talking about history now.

[75 Sergey]

I talked with a resident of the LDNR, he said, "The city is not as terrible as it is painted, well, the house was cut with fragments, well, the roof was formed, and Himars got into the entrance of the house and is not at home."
It would be necessary to urgently modernize Grada in the direction of changing the warhead to improve performance

[Georgy Sviridov_2]

It’s a perversion to change 122 to 130 ... I would understand even if the author even suggested abandoning hail / tornado-g and leaving only a tornado / hurricane.
But it doesn't really make sense. Firstly, these are systems of different levels, and secondly, the hail is just very good because it has many guides, that is, 4 cars calmly overload virtually any air defense in one gulp, and even if it suddenly calls back all the missiles, it will need time to change positions and reload ... And modern shells for tornadoes fly up to 50 km, that is, to the entire operational depth.
To date, a hurricane has remained from the RSZO. And accordingly, it must either be abandoned or modernized.
The wheeled chassis for the RSZO is more than justified, the tracks only make sense for the polar version.

[Victorovich]

What say
the second wrote a lot..
Well :
1. We seem to be writing about the BM-21 ... but immediately the Hurricane begins to find fault ...
2. For some reason, the author begins to campaign for a tracked chassis for GRADA ... like this is better.
But why does the author not indicate the cost !!! Where is the comparison of the cost of tracked and automobile
chassis???
3. Everything relies on the economy - that's why even rich Americans have transferred their MLRS to a car chassis.

"War requires three things: money, money and more money."
Marshal Gian-Jacopo Trivulzio