Military Review

Historian reflects on higher education in Russia and the rejection of the Bologna system

196
Historian reflects on higher education in Russia and the rejection of the Bologna system

Historian and popular blogger Klim Zhukov touched on the topic of higher education in Russia on his YouTube channel.


According to him, it is most acute now, when our country is no longer part of the Bologna education system, where, as the blogger put it, we so zealously sought.

However, according to Zhukov, the problem of higher education in Russia is long overdue.

Yes, as he put it, the Bologna system greatly aggravated it, because our universities essentially trained specialists, focusing on the Western labor market. As a result, these graduates turned out to be practically not in demand inside Russia.

However, this was before our "integration" into the Bologna system. After all, as the expert said, he has been hearing the phrase for thirty years already: “Why will I go to college, if then they give me a piece of paper that no one needs and I still won’t be able to work in my specialty.”

The historian noted that the statements of the Russian authorities about the need to train more and better specialists are sound, but only on one condition.

Our economy should be able to provide jobs for all these specialists.

- said Zhukov.

According to him, today a person who has studied at the history department can go to work as a realtor or a phone salesman. However, the state (or parents) spent a lot of money on his education.

Therefore, according to the blogger, first you need to figure out what specialties the state needs, and then train a lot of good specialists, and not solid PR managers and marketers, as is done now.

Author:
196 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Alexga
    Alexga 28 November 2022 18: 32
    +15
    Zhukov is absolutely right. First they spawned economists and lawyers, then managers, now IT specialists, and when will engineers and designers be needed?
    1. Dartik
      Dartik 28 November 2022 18: 34
      +6
      Quote: AlexGa
      Zhukov is absolutely right. First they spawned economists and lawyers, then managers, now IT specialists, and when will engineers and designers be needed?

      IT people are engineers. Engineers will be needed when the economy grows, production grows and factories are built. Alas, Russia is in many ways an expensive country for production and it is cheaper to produce in Asia, and then in Africa.
      1. Alexga
        Alexga 28 November 2022 18: 40
        +21
        IT people - engineers

        Colleague, do not offend engineers. Alas, there are only a few among the galaxy of IT people who understand computer hardware. In my understanding, an engineer is someone who can read drawings and various diagrams, and, well, create these documents. But maybe I'm already outdated in my outlook on life.
        1. filibuster
          filibuster 28 November 2022 18: 51
          0
          Alas, there are only a few among the galaxy of IT people who understand computer hardware.


          So it comes from the market, there are more vacancies in IT that are far from hardware directly, but there are enough “hardware workers”, what can I say.
          1. Alexga
            Alexga 28 November 2022 19: 02
            +2
            So it comes from the market...

            Yes, these are the requirements today, but there is tomorrow, and the personnel for it should begin to be created already now, for new enterprises, if we are talking about recreating a powerful economy, and not according to the principle "what we need, we will buy cheap from the Chinese."
            1. Tatyana
              Tatyana 28 November 2022 19: 41
              +3
              The problem of higher education in Russia is long overdue.
              In the country, the main goals of the life of society are determined by the STATE ideology, and according to the Constitution of the Russian Federation, there is no STATE ideology in Russia. And since the country does not have its own STATE national ideology, then its place UNOFFICIALLY - for foreign grants - will be taken by ALIEN ideology in favor of the ruling class in the country and its curators abroad .. Namely.

              Ideological education in the Russian Federation has long been "sour". The country's dominant bourgeois ideology of the American economist M. Friedman, set forth in his book "Capitalism and Freedom" is no longer called "bourgeois", but is called class abstractly simply "market" with elements of the so-called. "monetarism" (i.e. bourgeois pursuit of financial profits).
              In this case, one cannot equate the concept of real capitalism with all its shortcomings with the doctrinaire idea of ​​the American Milton Friedman in the form of some kind of speculative social project, brought to life, to build a supposedly ideally fair capitalism on Earth all over the world. Due to what?
              Due to the alleged existence in the world of some anarchist absolutely "free" from everyone and every world market, which is supposedly absolutely "clean" from profanities and dishonesty both on the part of the participants in the capital market, goods (services) and labor, and from pressure on them a nation state. And at the same time, Friedman naively assumes that all market participants free from the state are initially at all times equal in their life start and can always become rich if they just want it. This is pure utopia and bluff!
              Behind this attempt by Friedman to whitewash capitalism lies a very definite goal taken by Washington's apologists. Namely.
              The purpose of this American bluff is to make the sovereign countries "indigenous" for the United States, uncontrollably and duty-free by their governments, mistakenly, free and defenseless from competition, open access for US multinational companies to their domestic markets for the sale of foreign goods and the purchase of "indigenous" wealth by foreigners. , enterprises and natural resources.
              In this case, the reduction of native state property to the maximum - to "0" - is promoted by the "market people" exclusively as a public good. For the state supposedly no longer needs to control anything, no one needs to be punished, and there is no need to regulate trade and production either. That all members of society will become such honest and law-abiding entrepreneurs that, therefore, it will no longer be necessary to protect the population from crooks, thieves, robbers and murderers. And therefore, the supposedly national state, as an anachronism, will disappear by itself as unnecessary, and there is no need to defend it at all. For the distribution of material goods "from above" at the state level will not be required, because everything will be regulated by this "ideal" capitalist market. Well, those who did not fit into the market are already their problems. Let, they say, they survive on their own, as they can. These include, in particular, all the so-called. "superfluous" people: pensioners, disabled people, children, etc. - all those who "did not fit into the market." But they should be "happy" with their freedom from the centuries-old, fattening abstract-bureaucratic state, which has always been dreamed of by the anarchists for centuries.

              TOTAL. All this the ideology of Milton Friedman about the alleged existence of the so-called. "free" and "clean" market is the anarchist propaganda of the American establishment to decompose the national security of sovereign states to their complete elimination and subordination of their resources in favor of US multinational companies.
              Unfortunately, this ideology is UNOFICIALLY adopted by the Russian ruling elite, as a STATE ideology. It is implemented in practice by the government of the Russian Federation, the guarantor of the Constitution of the Russian Federation, in the State Duma and the Federation Council.
              А HSE is a forge of bourgeois young cadres from local "natives" in this comprador economy and its apologists as the US COLONIAL ADMINISTRATION and the collective West in Russia.
              And the Bologna system itself was promoted at the same time by Soros since 1986, even under Gorbachev, with his so-called. "new thinking"! And notorious "marketers": Nabiulina, Siluanov, Gref, etc. - are still in power!
              1. Nikolay Malyugin
                Nikolay Malyugin 29 November 2022 08: 23
                +1
                Tatiana. You wrote everything correctly. And there is no doubt about it. The only question is what kind of ideology we need. There is an ideology of the times of the Republic of Ingushetia. There was an ideology of the USSR. But all this field has already been trampled down. It is necessary to develop virgin lands. Who will do it? Ideology should gracefully fall on the mentality of the people. And all this requires discussion. What is simply not to be expected.
                1. Tatyana
                  Tatyana 29 November 2022 13: 55
                  -1
                  First, there is succession in science. If it is not there, then everything "new" is a linden. The new arises, according to logic, when checking the scientific consistency of old knowledge and correcting methodological errors in them. The most perfect philosophical method is the dialectical-materialistic method. It reveals the logical errors of the m/l theory, which also uses the metaphysical method. It was the metaphorical mistake of the M/L classics that "the state will DIE under communism" that allowed the USSR to be destroyed by the bourgeois-colonial West. After all, M. Friedman parasitizes with the same argument - the phenomenon of supposedly historical ATAVISM in our time of the existence of any national state in general, as such!
                  Stalin was wiser than Lenin the Trotskyist in this regard.
                  In this sense, Vel. oct. social the revolution in Russia in 1917 needs to be reviewed from the NATIONAL positions of its leaders! That is why there is no national ideology in the Russian Federation, since it was in 1917 in Soviet Russia that the Russian question arose and still exists in its various expressions. Namely.
                  Any revolution is determined by theory as a guide to action, as well as its own driving forces that will implement it, as well as the presence of temporary allies.
                  1. So, the m/l theory was convened by K. Marx, a Jew by nationality and the grandson of two rabbis. His work "The Jewish Question" considers the role of Jewish manufacturers only in the exploitation of people of other nationalities in production - i.e. only in the production sector, and he does not touch on or criticize the role of Jewish finaseists-capitalists! Question. Why? What is behind this?
                  2. The driving forces in the revolution of 1917 were the TROTSKISTS of all stripes. It was Trotsky who created the Red Army. And it was the Trotskyists who came to power in Soviet Russia! What nationality were these people mostly? Were there many Russians there?
                  Lenin did not allow the Great Russians to power as supposedly chauvinists of the tsarist regime. But what is the difference between a Russian PROLETARIAN and a foreign PROLETARIAN? Nothing! That. Lenin wiped his feet on the Marxist "PROLETARIAN INTERNATIONALIM" without being a proletarian himself.
                  It turns out that "Proletarian internationalism" is just a MANIPULATION of the classics of M/L theory! Then why and who really needed it with a national anti-Russian coup d'état in Russia? Who are these people? And what and why was the Jewish question in Russia and in the West?
                  Let me remind you that at the end of the 19th century the Zionist question arose openly in Europe and the world! At the same time, it was the Jews in the world who did not have their own national state. The question arose where they should create it. But then, in this case, it is necessary to take away the lands from another state and the state of the forming people! The West, supporting the Zionists, directed their energy to Russia and the Russians! These things need to be studied - and until 1937 they chauvinistically ruled Soviet Russia as their own country in alliance with national minorities.
                  But in historical terms, the Soviet period was just a TRANSITIONAL period of transition from state public property to private property!
                  Well, what is the nationality of our Odigarhs now? Rhetorical question.
                  ERRORS M / l theory just needs to be corrected and brought to the dialectical and materialistic norm. Well, for example, how a teacher checks the solution of problems according to the rules of mathematics.
                  And there have been developments in the country for a long time, but only the Russian authorities and dogmatic communists do not need them.
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 15: 53
                    -2
                    At the same time, it was the Jews in the world who did not have their own national state.

                    Like dozens of other peoples.
                    The rest of the pearls are already set on edge.
                    PS You even managed to spice up the polemic between Marx and Bauer about emancipation with nationalism.
                    1. Tatyana
                      Tatyana 29 November 2022 16: 30
                      0
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      At the same time, it was the Jews in the world who did not have their own national state.

                      Like dozens of other peoples.

                      However, none of them, unlike the political and financial Zionists, organized national coups d'etat, world revolutions and civil wars all over the world for the sake of forming their own national state and seizing power in other countries over other peoples!
                      You, probably, from Israel, write to me here?
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 17: 03
                        -1
                        Guess why I don't care what country you write from, but you don't?
                      2. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 29 November 2022 17: 06
                        0
                        Yes, and there is nothing to guess - and so everything is clear!
                      3. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 17: 10
                        0
                        Of course it's clear. One of us is a chauvinist and one is not.
                      4. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 29 November 2022 17: 24
                        0
                        Don't put labels on me! You yourself are - even worse.
                        Just the true truth pricks your eyes!
                  2. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 17: 20
                    -1
                    It is precisely the metaphorical mistake of the classics of M / L that "the state WILL DIE under communism"

                    What’s the mistake?
                    And how did this "mistake" cause the collapse of the USSR?
                    The word "metaphysical" is used exclusively for the red word, as are most of the verbal quirks in your sheets of text.
                    1. Tatyana
                      Tatyana 29 November 2022 21: 09
                      -1
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      The word "metaphysical" is used exclusively for the red word, as are most of the verbal quirks in your sheets of text.
                      Your remarks only indicate that you are completely scientifically well versed in methodology. Namely, you do not know systematically what logical methods exist in the same philosophy, how they work, how to use them, who uses them, why, how and for what. Don't pester me with your questions! I do not intend to lecture you and fill gaps in your knowledge of methodology. You have a level of training in methodology in philosophy in this matter, well, just NO! And I said this not to offend you, but for the sake of objective truth! Yes, and telling you all this is absolutely useless - true, i.e. scientifically consistent knowledge, as such, in principle, does not suit you for selfish nationalistic reasons! You are pragmatically guided by a completely different - namely, your national-chauvinist - ideology.
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 11: 20
                        -2
                        You are pragmatically guided by a completely different - namely, your national-chauvinist - ideology.

                        wassat
                        Bold, brash. Of course, I understand that the best defense is an attack. Moreover, the more absurd the accusation, the greater the effect. But in this case, it's funny.
                        PS You can't "lecture me". You do not have the relevant knowledge. And under the guise of an "insulted expert" it is very convenient to ignore the questions asked.
                      2. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 30 November 2022 11: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You can't "lecture me". You do not have the relevant knowledge. And under the guise of an "insulted expert" it is very convenient to ignore the questions asked.

                        Will you continue to troll me?
                        You have a "strange" assessment of labor in obtaining an education, as such. Enter the appropriate university and study, in a few years, scientifically sound philosophy as the METHODOLOGY of science, etc. subjects for its application in practice, as it should be done in reality, and not attacking other people in your comments!
                        I don’t see the relevant knowledge in you, and arguing with a half-educated troll, whose provocative personal interests are visible a mile away, makes no sense, it’s not pragmatic, it’s just wasting your time and your nerves on you!
                      3. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 11: 46
                        -1
                        So I will hear the answer from the "expert" in what is "the metaphorical error of the classics of M / L that "the state will DIE under communism""? And how did this mistake ruin the USSR? Or everything will be as I said
                        under the guise of an "insulted expert" it is very convenient to ignore the questions asked.


                        whose personal interests are a mile away

                        There is only one personal interest - to show people the pseudo-science of fake experts who cover up ordinary chauvinism with their pseudo-science.
                  3. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 17: 40
                    -1
                    But in historical terms, the Soviet period was just a TRANSITIONAL period of transition from state public property to private property!

                    Class. State public property in the Russian Empire is strong.
                    1. Tatyana
                      Tatyana 29 November 2022 20: 49
                      0
                      How do you turn everything around! Well, you yourself quoted what I wrote. Namely
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      But that's historical SOVIET period was just a TRANSITION period of transition from state public property to private property!
                      In this case, we are talking about a coup d'état in the USSR and Russia under Gorbachev and Yeltsin! About the 1990s.
                      And if we also take the Republic of Ingushetia in 1917 and present the property, as such, on the real axis, then to the left of zero there will be the property of the sovereign state of the forming Russian people of the Republic of Ingushetia, and to the right the property of the oligarchs, mostly of non-Russian nationality. And at the same time, property in the Soviet period can be omitted and considered as a transition through zero on the real axis from some national state-forming hands in the Republic of Ingushetia to other national - already OLIGARCHY - hands in the Russian Federation.
                      Well, what are you, honestly, in logic behave like a little one!
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 11: 29
                        -1
                        In this case, we are talking about a coup d'état in the USSR and Russia under Gorbachev and Yeltsin! About the 1990s.

                        In this case, you have clearly written about the "Soviet period". And this is a well-defined time frame, and not "under Gorbachev and Yeltsin"
                        And if we also take the Republic of Ingushetia in 1917 and present the property, as such, on the real axis, then to the left of zero there will be the property of the sovereign state of the forming Russian people of the Republic of Ingushetia, and to the right the property of the oligarchs, mostly of non-Russian nationality. And at the same time, property in the Soviet period can be omitted and considered as a transition through zero on the real axis from some national state-forming hands in the Republic of Ingushetia to other national - already OLIGARCHY - hands in the Russian Federation.

                        What is this figment of an inflamed imagination? Starting with the absolutely inappropriate use of such a very specific concept as the "real axis". Do you know the properties of the real axis? How did you decide that the use of this phrase is appropriate here? You simply disguise your, to put it mildly, insane texts with abundant use (out of place) of terms and professionalism in order to create the appearance of "scientific". From which stupidity in judgments, on the contrary, is only more visible.
                    2. Tatyana
                      Tatyana 29 November 2022 21: 25
                      0
                      Imagine, in any national state, state property, as public property, is always present to a certain extent. Due to it, the state apparatus is maintained, including the country's armed forces.
                      Do not write me anymore! I'm tired of you as a troll.
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 11: 37
                        -1
                        Imagine, in any nation state government, as public, property is always present up to a certain size. Due to it, the state apparatus is maintained, including the country's armed forces.

                        Imagine NO.
                        In the same aforementioned Russian Empire, state property was legally called "sovereign property" (even after 1905), can you guess why?
                      2. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 30 November 2022 16: 25
                        0
                        By the way, Chubais and all the pro-Western "market people" - liberal economists - also used the concept of "property".

                        In philosophy, they operate with the concept of "property".

                        There is no need to limit the logical content of the philosophical concept of "property" to the concept of "property", which is included in the concept of "property"! Land, rivers, minerals, etc. It's not "property", it's "property".
                      3. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 16: 36
                        -1
                        There is no need to limit the logical content of the philosophical concept of "property" to the concept of "property", which is included in the concept of "property"!

                        No one restricts anything - the fact that somewhere once it was decided to use the word "property" to denote the concept of "property" does not change anything in this concept. You just can't correctly place accents in the messages of the interlocutors. In my message, we are talking about what your words are, that "in any national state, state, as a public, property is always present to a certain extent." are erroneous, and gave an example that refutes your words - in the Russian Empire, state property is not public, but royal.
                      4. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 30 November 2022 16: 56
                        0
                        The monarch and the people in philosophy are inseparable from the concept of "state"!
                      5. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 16: 57
                        -1
                        The monarch and the people in philosophy cannot be separated from the concept of "state"!

                        You figured it out yourself
                      6. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 30 November 2022 17: 26
                        0
                        "Legal law" is a derivative (applied) concept from the concept of "ideology"; ideology, which in turn is based on philosophy as a scientific discipline, i.e. on the philosophical methods of constructing each ideological concept separately.
                      7. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 17: 33
                        -1
                        "Legal law" is a derivative concept from ideology

                        No. And, accordingly, everything that follows, built on an incorrect premise, becomes incorrect.
                        Moreover, on what basis did you replace the thesis "the monarch and the people are inseparable from the concept of the state" with the phrase "legal right"?
                      8. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 30 November 2022 18: 08
                        0
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        and on what basis did you replace the thesis "the monarch and the people are inseparable from the concept of the state" with the phrase "legal law"?
                        Well, you yourself opposed the concept of "property" to the concept of "property"!
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        In the same aforementioned Russian Empire state property LEGISLATIVELY bore the name "sovereign property" (even after 1905)

                        By this, you logically rest on a specific LEGISLATIVE-legal FORM of the concept of "property", which incorrectly excludes the very philosophical content of the concept of "property" (i.e., in fact, you refuse to operate with the philosophical concept of "property" - enter into a logical contradiction). And I'm talking to you about the philosophical CONTENT of the concept of "property" as a category of GENERAL for the concept of ownership vooyusche - without regard to its specific forms.
                        The concept of property is also inherent in animals - and the legal forms of property in philosophy have nothing to do with it. (And the classics of m/l in their labor theory of anthropogenesis IN THE QUESTION of the formation of the concept of "property" in animals made a metaphysical mistake, saying that animals do not have "proto-consciousness").
                        At the same time, you are confused in the application of the dialectical-materialistic method, namely: 1) the principle of "the unity of the concrete and the abstract." And also violated the principle 2) "transition from SINGLE to GENERAL and to GENERAL through SPECIAL". At the same time, you see the SPECIFIC and SINGLE, but the ABSTRACT and GENERAL - no!
                      9. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 18: 20
                        -1
                        Well, you yourself opposed the concept of "property" to the concept of "property"!

                        WHERE?!?!
                        You have already been told that the key word in the phrase "sovereign property" is the sovereign, and not property. You were just told that there was NO PUBLIC property in the empire. I do not oppose anything - the fact that the word "property" is written is a statement of the historical fact that this word designates state property in the legal codes of a specific state entity that existed in objective reality. And you take the conversation into the sphere - how potatoes or potatoes are right.
                      10. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 30 November 2022 20: 24
                        0
                        You don't understand. There can historically be many states in a country, but the country as such is ONE for the people.

                        At the same time, formally, there can be many private forms of ownership in the country. But historically they are always temporary - they flow from one private hand to another.
                        But people's property in the face of the state is always the same - and this manifests itself especially during the war, when citizens go to defend not so much their state as their country - their land and their people, regardless of the form of the state and the forms of private property in it.

                        Legally and actually in peacetime in the West, state property - despite the "market" ideology of M. Fridman - reaches 50-70%!
                        And in Russia, the West, represented by its apologists, wants all state property at the feet of the people in Russia - LAND, water, and other natural resources, and not just state-owned enterprises - to also become everywhere only PRIVATE property, which the West can easily take away from Russian private traders and takes away, confiscates for his own benefit! WHAT the West has done and is doing with the Russian oligarchs - Abramovich, Deripaska, etc.
                  4. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 18: 00
                    -1
                    Well, what is the nationality of our Odigarhs now?

                    Imagine, the overwhelming majority are Russians.
                    https://www.forbes.ru/rating/426935-200-bogateyshih-biznesmenov-rossii-2021-reyting-forbes
                    1. Tatyana
                      Tatyana 29 November 2022 20: 54
                      0
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      Imagine, the overwhelming majority are Russians.
                      Nothing like this!
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 11: 38
                        -1
                        Nothing like this!

                        Are you that deaf and blind to arguments? You already have a list. So who are our oligarchs by nationality?
                      2. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 30 November 2022 16: 43
                        0
                        Quote: A vile skeptic
                        Are you that deaf and blind to arguments? You already have a list. So who are our oligarchs by nationality?

                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        https://www.forbes.ru/rating/426935-200-bogateyshih-biznesmenov-rossii-2021-reyting-forbes

                        And why are you only looking at the full name in this list? There, the nationality is not represented at all in the list!

                        Meanwhile, well, for example, Mikhail Prokhorov is a Jew by nationality, and does not hide it, but by his first and last name, I also considered him Russian!
                      3. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 16: 56
                        -1
                        Jewish by nationality

                        Do not remind how Russians determine the nationality of a child? And then the anti-Semites have an interesting approach to write down a person as a "Jew", they immediately forget that Russian nationality is determined by the pope.
                      4. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 30 November 2022 17: 14
                        0
                        You don't read my comments well.
                        It's written
                        Quote: Tatiana
                        Mikhail Prokhorov is a Jew by nationality and DOES NOT HIDE IT, and by his first and last name, I also considered him Russian!
                        And what about "Jewishness"? I gave you an example of the fact that it is not always possible to determine the nationality of a person by a full name. And knowing this, I don’t even bother with such things.
                      5. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 17: 24
                        -1
                        Show where he calls himself a Jew, and not that he has Jews in his family?
                        The fact that he found a Jewish grandmother in order to obtain Israeli citizenship does not make him a Jew. even under the Nuremberg racial laws.
                        And knowing this, I don’t even bother with such things.

                        On the basis of what do you then assert (albeit shamefully veiling with a "rhetorical question") that the nationality of the oligarchs of Russia is a Jew.
                      6. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 30 November 2022 18: 22
                        0
                        Yes, look for it yourself! The Internet has it all.
                        Prokhorov by nationality really has every right to become an Israeli citizen.
                        Stop trolling me!
                        Well, how much can you exploit me and waste my personal time?

                        See details - https://www.km.ru/v-rossii/2013/04/23/mikhail-prokhorov/709435-semeinaya-taina-prokhorova
                      7. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 1 December 2022 09: 18
                        -2
                        See details

                        I do not consider the yellow press a suitable source of information
                        Yes, look for it yourself! The Internet has it all.

                        The fact that Prokhorov calls himself a Jew? There is not.
                        Prokhorov by nationality really has every right to become an Israeli citizen.

                        AND? This is just the migration policy of Israel. This does not make Prokhorov a Jew.
                      8. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 1 December 2022 09: 46
                        0
                        The Internet is changing rapidly. I cannot and do not want to look for old information for you.
                        I quickly found yesterday a link to something that is close to the topic of conversation about Prokhorov, which Zen automatically issued upon request. Know how to read the information between the lines and draw the appropriate conclusions! It is written there that his maternal grandmother was Jewish and Prokhorov never publicly denied his Jewish roots.
                        After all, there is no smoke without fire.
                        And you can, as before, remain in your opinion, if you so desire! The problem of the predominance in Russia of precisely non-Russian oligarchs in relation to the number of representatives of people of a given nationality is not removed from this! And the supposedly Russian full name of the oligarch still says little about their real ethno-nationality.
                        And generally speaking. You have run into a problem that a new scientific discipline is considering in science - ETHNOPSYCHLOGY.
                      9. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 1 December 2022 09: 57
                        -2
                        It is written that his maternal grandmother was Jewish.

                        I wrote it for you above. AND? Did he become Jewish? Why is that? I repeat, even according to the Nuremberg racial laws, he is not a Jew.
                        It is written that his maternal grandmother was Jewish.

                        And you wrote that he identifies himself as a Jew ("he does not hide it"). So confirm that this is not your invention. You can not? Then don't use it in an argument.
                        Know how to read the information between the lines and draw the appropriate conclusions!

                        That is, to put it simply, IMAGINE how you do it.
                        The problem of dominance in Russia

                        people who segregate on ethnic or religious grounds.
                      10. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 1 December 2022 10: 05
                        0
                        Everything is clear with you. Bast on the cola, start over!
                        I repeat, vile skeptic, look for this information yourself on the Internet. She was right there.
                        Personally, this truth does not bother me much. The systemic problem of differences in the psychology of various ethnic nationalities is clear to me even without this. I purposefully studied it within the framework of the scientific discipline - ethnopsychology.
                      11. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 1 December 2022 12: 10
                        -1
                        She was right there.

                        You definitely figured it out. Well, or as you say - read between the lines wassat
                        I purposefully studied it within the framework of the scientific discipline - ethnopsychology.

                        What are you ... a multi-station wassat
                  5. Vyacheslav Krylov
                    Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 11: 35
                    0
                    I need development. Deign to offer references, I will read, I will arrange an academic seminar.
              2. Foul skeptic
                Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 09: 06
                -1
                Lord, the same sheet of text for all occasions.
                And the Bologna system itself was promoted at the same time by Soros since 1986, even under Gorbachev, with his so-called. "new thinking"!

                The Bologna process took shape in the late 90s in Europe, what kind of Gorbachev?
                1. Tatyana
                  Tatyana 29 November 2022 14: 16
                  0
                  Quote: A vile skeptic
                  Lord, the same sheet of text for all occasions.
                  For you - "sheet", and for others NOVELTY and NEW knowledge! What do you think about yourself here? Have a conscience!
                  Quote: A vile skeptic
                  And the Bologna system itself was promoted at the same time by Soros since 1986, even under Gorbachev, with his so-called. "new thinking"!
                  The Bologna process took shape in the late 90s in Europe, what kind of Gorbachev?

                  It's just that you didn't work at school in 1986 and you don't know how it all started. And at that time I was more than aware of the school reform.
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 15: 54
                    0
                    It’s just that you didn’t work at school in 1986 and don’t know how it all started.

                    Share this secret
                    1. Tatyana
                      Tatyana 29 November 2022 16: 56
                      +1
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      Share this secret

                      I wrote a detailed substantiated NEGATIVE review of the liberal pilot project in St. Petersburg - then for the whole of Russia - the project of St. Petersburg teachers - deputies of the St. Petersburg Legislative Assembly - "Education-90". And with her review she closed the oxygen for denationalization and optimization in the coolest pro-Western-liberal form of public education in Russia by the authorities.
                      At that time, in St. Petersburg, strikes of schoolchildren's parents against teachers with their teachers' strikes in support of this liberal school education reform in the country were already beginning.
                      The reform was postponed, but then, quietly, over the course of several years, it was nevertheless implemented in parts, but not in full, as originally proposed and planned.
                      Well, how could it not be introduced, if Soros gave money to help the corrupt teaching and teaching corps of the country, who, with his patronage and foreign grants, ruined the entire former system of Soviet and Russian education in our country?!
                      1. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 17: 09
                        0
                        What do you consider unacceptable? Did you have such powers - to decide the fate of deputy projects? How interesting.
              3. Vyacheslav Krylov
                Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 11: 23
                0
                Everything is presented logically and believably.
                What is the alternative or how can we make higher education "chemically pure"?
                1. Tatyana
                  Tatyana 30 November 2022 15: 42
                  -1
                  Quote: Vyacheslav Krylov
                  What is the alternative or how can we make higher education "chemically pure"?
                  In part, everything rests on the policy of the "top" in power in our country - and not only in our country. Namely.

                  Without a large-scale purge of elites, officials, a change in the economic course and reform of the army in this war with the United States and those who stand behind them, the US countries will not win.
                  At the same time, the entire US sanctions policy rests on the "bodyagi" with the so-called. fake "market" ideology of the American Milton Friedman in the governments of the countries of the world (including Russia) about the alleged existence in the world of the so-called. "free" and "pure" market for capital, goods and labor. This bluff ideology, which works solely in the interests of the global financiers of the US Federal Reserve and American multinational companies, can only lead to TMB.
                  With this manipulative - allegedly class-apolitical - ideology, it's time to end and start calling a spade a spade. Namely.

                  It is time for the people in education to understand that this pseudo-"market" fake ideology has captured the whole world for a reason (by the way, similar to how it was with the Trotskyists with communist ideology in their time) and that US SANCTIONS against other countries do not arise from out of nowhere and do not get stronger by themselves!
                  The "market" economy is a conscious sabotage-offensive engineering project of the privately owned bankers of the US Federal Reserve to build their own "world order" and dominance over the world. And SANCTIONS arex financial WEAPON in the world economy and the economy of other countries as a MONOPOLIZATION in the world of the circulation of American dollars, etc. as a privately owned financial product - with the help of which they GENOCIDELY DESTROY the peoples of the whole world and their national states, THEY DICTATE THEIR WILL, THE CONDITIONS OF THEIR LIFE AND THEIR NUMBER TO THEM.

                  You need to understand that US SANCTIONS have their own ideologically ZOMBING programming of people's behavior in the form of a fake justification as a guide to action to assert in society an anti-human moral attitude of their own superiority and domination over the world - over other countries and other people. But in fact, this is a MENTAL DEGENERATION of the "chosen ones" to appropriate the moral and legal RIGHT to become fascists!

                  In connection with the foregoing, in the Russian Federation - in the field of Russian education - it is also high time to close the HSE - this post-Soviet "market"-comprador blacksmith of scientifically insolvent, colonially pro-American financial and administrative personnel in the Russian Federation - as part of all this pro-American financial MESS - the enslavement of people and wars in the world.
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 16: 09
                    -1
                    to appropriate the moral and legal RIGHT to become fascists!

                    Legal right is necessarily secured by legal documents. Prove your words by providing a document prescribing the right of a person to become a fascist.
                    How do you compose your texts? Alternately, randomly poke your finger into the dictionary and what you get into, then write down sequentially? I have no other explanation for these incoherent sheets.
                  2. Vyacheslav Krylov
                    Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 17: 54
                    0
                    Quote: Tatiana
                    In connection with the foregoing, in the Russian Federation - in the field of Russian education - it is also high time to close the HSE - this post-Soviet "market"-comprador blacksmith of scientifically insolvent, colonially pro-American financial and administrative personnel in the Russian Federation - as part of all this pro-American financial MESS - the enslavement of people and wars in the world.

                    Okay, let everything be as it is written, "we will cut down all the vineyards." Criticism offered is qualitative. Who will give high-quality higher, for example, economic education? Do you have any suggestions for this? FROM new personnel in Russia, obviously, tension.
                    Quote: Tatiana
                    In part, everything rests on the policy of the "top" in power in our country - and not only in our country.

                    Okay, let's replace all the "old" tops with the "new" tops. Do you have enough education and life experience to guess that nothing fundamentally new will happen? "New" is a qualitative illusion, covered with new forms. Prove?
                    1. Tatyana
                      Tatyana 30 November 2022 19: 27
                      0
                      With personnel of the required quality for the restructuring of teaching in universities in the right national-patriotic direction, it is really tense! People in universities work in principle good, but the prevailing system of foreign grants and reports on scientific publications in foreign journals has driven everything into a system of dogmatism according to Western parameters and narratives.
                      Sometimes professors give me their books. Here you read them and catch yourself thinking that it would be better if this professor did not give me his works, because I would have a better opinion of him than after reading his work.
                      One must have an idea of ​​how Russian professors are forced to work now.
                      On the one hand, ideologically and unequivocally, for the most part, they will opportunistically reorganize themselves on new tracks, like defectors in 1991, in order to stay at work in universities in their places. However, after more than 30 years of liberal post-Soviet demolition of the Soviet education system on a colonial basis, they do not have worthy breakthrough developments of their own. This is especially evident at scientific and practical conferences with foreign participation. Terribly sad sight! But Western foreign participants-observers are very pleased with such a picture at the conference - they are simply delighted!
                      Quote: Vyacheslav Krylov
                      "New" is a qualitative illusion, covered with new forms.
                      So the so-called. the "new" can develop as the former direction of the "old" in with the same strategic goals. I don't consider it "new". This is the consolidation and deepening of the "Old".
                      Scientific novelty is equivalent to a scientifically sound scientific discovery in the development of nature and society. This is what our country really needs. And only a few are capable of it. Yes, and they need support from those in power within society itself.
                      1. Vyacheslav Krylov
                        Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 20: 40
                        0
                        Quote: Tatiana
                        Scientific novelty is equivalent to a scientifically sound scientific discovery in the development of nature and society. This is what our country really needs. And only a few are capable of it. Yes, and they need support from those in power within society itself.

                        "Almost good". If without support from those in power within the society itself, then "good." If you remove the terms "scientific, scientific, scientific", then "almost excellent." What should be done to get "just fine"?
                      2. Tatyana
                        Tatyana 30 November 2022 20: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: Vyacheslav Krylov
                        What should be done to get "just fine"?

                        Until there is no light.
                2. Tatyana
                  Tatyana 30 November 2022 16: 01
                  0
                  Quote: Vyacheslav Krylov
                  What is the alternative or how can we make higher education "chemically pure"?
                  They began to deal with the HSE as with a blacksmith of pro-American colonial and administrative personnel in the Russian Federation from the Russians themselves, but so far not very productively. Namely.

                  REFERENCE
                  HSE was created by Gaidar with money allocated by the United States - for $ 1 million, in 1992, when in 1992 the government of Yegor Gaidar initiated a series of "market" reforms and in the Russian Federation he urgently needed specialists who allegedly "understand" the modern Western world economy and "know how" to analyze and predict the results.
                  At the same time, the pro-Western The HSE as an "Institute for the Economy in Transition" was STRATEGICALLY established in 1992 not so much by Gaidar as by the Americans who flooded the US in the 90s for Gaidar.
                  And already in 1997, the Higher School of Economics and the London School of Economics (LSE) signed an agreement on the establishment of the International College of Economics and Finance (ICEF), which was later renamed the International Institute of Economics and Finance.
                  And only then - namely only in 2009 - SU-HSE became the Federal Budgetary Educational Institution of Higher Professional Education "State University - Higher School of Economics under the Government of the Russian Federation". And according to the order of the Government of the Russian Federation of August 12, 2008 No. 1177-r, the founder of the university is the Government of the Russian Federation. At the same time, a new Charter of the University was adopted, and the SU-HSE Development Program for the period 2009-2015 was developed. and until 2020.
                  The main campus is located in Moscow, three more - in St. Petersburg, Nizhny Novgorod and Perm.
                  By the way. It was Elvira Nabiullina's husband who became rector of the Higher School of Economics in 1992.
                  Elvira Nabiullina herself, a 1986 graduate of the Faculty of Economics of Lomonosov Moscow State University, in 2007 she graduated from Yale University, which is tipped to be the glory of the US recruiting center.
                  Also she studied a leadership program in the USA called IVLP (International Visitor Leadership Program).
                  И At the end of 2016, the very influential English magazine The Banker, apparently not in vain in the opinion of the West, recognized Nabiullina as the best head of the Central Bank in Europe.
                  True, the HSE, as a forge of liberal cadres, has now been beheaded by the rector Ya. Kuzminov. But this is clearly not enough for the national security of Russia!

                  Second. Even if a “very strong technical backbone” has formed at the HSE in recent years, this does not mean at all that technical specialists, as HSE graduates, are not pro-Western “market people” in their ideological essence.
                  So It is easier to close the HSE than to scrape out the pro-Western Russian "market people" in the national economy of R, critical mass of which points is high - 85-90%

                  In other words, everything rests on IDEOLOGY - and on the creation of a real, scientifically consistent national state ideology in the Russian Federation to protect the national security of the existence and development of Russia!
                  1. Vyacheslav Krylov
                    Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 18: 01
                    0
                    Quote: Tatiana
                    everything rests on IDEOLOGY - and on the creation of a real, scientifically consistent national state ideology in the Russian Federation to protect the national security of the existence and development of Russia!

                    Everyone has always been engaged in ideology, without exception from this rule, and even attracted theology, secular science and life practice to its creation. Something on the planet has not yet advanced much. "National Security of the Existence and Development of Russia" - there is a sound, darkness of meanings. There was a time, he was naughty with terms and expressions.
                    1. Tatyana
                      Tatyana 30 November 2022 19: 43
                      0
                      Quote: Vyacheslav Krylov
                      "National Security of the Existence and Development of Russia"

                      The national security of the existence and development of Russia means protecting the entire population of our country, and not some separate - especially "chosen" minority - from its citizens. And how to come to this is an ideological question of implementing a specific philosophical concept for politicians.
                      And politics in any country is a concentrated expression of the economic interests of an individual, a group of people, individual ethnic groups, peoples, nations, as well as professional corporations and religious denominations.
        2. Blacksmith 55
          Blacksmith 55 28 November 2022 19: 11
          0
          A good engineer doesn't buy his diploma somewhere under a bridge or in a dark alley.
          First of all, it is necessary to establish admission to the institutes on the basis of knowledge, and not through relatives or through a bribe.
          And it is necessary to hire people who are ill in the first place for work.

          Then, after some time, good engineers will appear.
          But this should be understood from above and appropriate decisions should be made.
          1. Alexga
            Alexga 28 November 2022 19: 27
            +1
            The first step is to establish admission to knowledge institutes

            And cancel the exam, and restore the entrance exams to universities and to a greater extent in oral form, so that the way of thinking of the applicant can be seen. And now the mute can become a translator.
            1. 2 Level Advisor
              2 Level Advisor 28 November 2022 19: 48
              +3
              but first ensure there is no corruption in passing these exams.. any idea how?
              1. Alexga
                Alexga 28 November 2022 20: 27
                +1
                any ideas how?

                There is! Criminal Code.
                1. Plover
                  Plover 28 November 2022 21: 26
                  +1
                  The Criminal Code is what it is. The problem is enforcement. In the absence of the inevitability of punishment, the long period of consideration of cases and the resulting economic inexpediency, the criminal code does not work as it should. So, unfortunately, the answer is not correct.
            2. Plover
              Plover 28 November 2022 21: 28
              +1
              The Chinese Unified State Examination (高考) and the system of distribution to universities in accordance with the success in this Unified State Examination allowed the Chinese to make a breakthrough in all areas of science. The USE is a good tool that is poorly used. And the problem is not in the exam, but in the education system.
              1. BastaKarapuzik And
                BastaKarapuzik And 28 November 2022 23: 17
                0
                The USE is scolded by teachers, and their claims are so well substantiated and reasoned that it becomes incomprehensible how such a crude and illogical system was adopted at all? Part of the shortcomings of the USE was leveled with original patches.
                For example, institutes still conduct additional testing of applicants.
                And it cannot be otherwise, if the specialty requires special knowledge of geometry, then the exam should be with an emphasis on this discipline, and not some kind of abstract testing at school in a general set of disciplines. Almost all university teachers note that modern students do not pull the program, there is not enough KNOWLEDGE.
                And how could it be otherwise, if the one who passed the exam had the right to enter a university within a few YEARS after graduation? Yes, he forgot the entire school curriculum.
                Compare this with the cramming of future students in the USSR, when after graduating from school it was still necessary to prepare for admission to a university ALL SUMMER. And often more than one summer! Who turned out to be better prepared for learning?
                1. Plover
                  Plover 29 November 2022 10: 26
                  +1
                  And I am the one who traveled from Chita to St. Petersburg and entered the exam. I prepared exclusively on my own - I knew the school curriculum almost perfectly. In the university that I wanted to enter, I did not score points in mathematics, because. without preparatory courses or classes with a tutor and consultations with teachers, it was not realistic to enter. He entered a less prestigious university. My brother had already passed the exam, he also prepared exclusively on his own and passed by points in the competition. Both me and him were taught by the same teachers, and I, as a student, understood one thing - if the school and teachers are normal, then it doesn’t matter what the final exam is, if desired, everything is comprehended.
            3. Arisaka
              Arisaka 29 November 2022 04: 04
              +2
              I entered the Unified State Examination in the capital of our Motherland, in the early 2000s. One of the largest Moscow universities. Tickets were on sale: everyone knew that three houses around the corner was a man from whom you could buy cheaper for the old years and, perhaps, very expensive for this one.
              And it was possible to pass on 2 and be on top of the table of those who passed.
              Just like a translator. And a bunch of young guys for 5-10 years who passed me already from the Unified State Examination turned out to be excellent specialists with whom I am now working.
              That last year's tickets were crammed on topics that are now for the exam.
              I'm not talking about better or worse. The problem is corruption. I remember how they hoped that it would be more difficult to enter through connections / for money thanks to the Unified State Examination. And for a while it was even like that ...
            4. Guran33 Sergey
              Guran33 Sergey 29 November 2022 12: 03
              0
              First of all (there is already more about this above) - promising work at the end of training. The start and initial payback of training is mandatory, and then, according to work, abilities, ingenuity and the possibilities of all kinds of cronyism and family ties.
          2. Dingo
            Dingo 29 November 2022 07: 47
            +1
            it is necessary to establish admission to institutions on the basis of knowledge, and not through relatives or through a bribe.

            I will add - and not according to the results of the exam, but to full-fledged exams. The deans are already howling like a wolf from these "victims of the USE".
            1. Plover
              Plover 29 November 2022 10: 28
              0
              You, apparently, do not live in St. Petersburg, since in all seriousness you are hanging an advertisement here for this freak rector from the HUMANITARIAN UNIVERSITY OF TRADE UNIONS. I remember that when they joined the Bologna process, he advocated very strongly for it. "Wind" blew in the other direction - changed shoes
              1. Dingo
                Dingo 29 November 2022 12: 47
                0
                You, apparently, do not live in St. Petersburg, since in all seriousness you hang ads here

                Quite right - not in St. Petersburg. But, I want to note, "an advertisement for this freak rector" is hung by a federal publication, I just bring his opinion here, to the topic.
                There is an opinion of another person ... I hope he is not a "freak" in your understanding:
                1. Plover
                  Plover 29 November 2022 15: 29
                  +1
                  hangs a federal edition
                  by "federal" do you mean that it applies to the entire territory of Russia? I read it for the last time about 10 years ago - well, that's it. I wouldn’t just talk about education - I wouldn’t refer to it at all.
                  Well, Bastrykin - yes. And the reaper, and the player on the pipe. Everywhere managed our shot
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. Plover
          Plover 28 November 2022 21: 23
          +1
          It is useful in such cases to turn to etymology. from fr. ingénierie ← from lat. ingenium - "skill" and lat. ingeniare - "contrive, develop" - "inventiveness", "invention", "knowledge", "skillful". Engineering is about putting scientific knowledge into practice to produce a useful result. Life is harder now than it was even 30 years ago. And the engineer who creates the code or business process diagrams from which the code is generated is no less an engineer than an engineer designing a new engine in CAD.
        5. Ilgizl
          Ilgizl 29 November 2022 07: 42
          0
          Yes, you are absolutely right. They forgot how to make civilian machines that, in turn, make civilian cars / planes, and so on in a chain. But there are always some unparalleled breakthroughs, either tablets, or smartphones, or unmanned Kamaz vehicles, etc. And most importantly, more IT people. And we somehow miss the fact that almost all of them work for Western companies because they first learned how to do what software is needed for, and only then it automatically developed as it is needed for use in manufactured devices.
          1. Plover
            Plover 29 November 2022 10: 33
            +1
            All civilian machine tools are first designed in CAD, then they are emulated in software, then a program is written for 3d printing of parts to create a model, and then an automated process, based on all this data, prepares information for industrial production ... If a modern engineer does not own information technology, he , maybe an engineer, but not a modern one.
            1. Vyacheslav Krylov
              Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 12: 23
              0
              Quote: Plover
              If a modern engineer does not own information technology, he may be an engineer, but not a modern one.

              Something in the above protocol is generally not detected by the engineer.
              1. Plover
                Plover 30 November 2022 15: 17
                0
                Something in the above protocol is generally not detected by the engineer.

                Hello muzzle. What was written above? Yes, no one knocks with a hammer in the described protocol. But for good in the 21st century, a person should not knock with a hammer in production at all - everything should be done by machines.
                And if you think that a person who can design a conditional machine in CAD is not an engineer, then ...
                1. Vyacheslav Krylov
                  Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 18: 19
                  0
                  Quote: Plover
                  And if you think that a person who can design a conditional machine in CAD is not an engineer, then ...

                  That! First (from the beginning) the conditional machine must declare itself objectively. Then it must fit in the mind engineer subjectively. Then you can look at the existing base for design: a napkin, a sheet of paper, wallpaper in a hotel, sand in the dunes, CAD, and so on. The design base is secondary, you can hire monkeys from Brazil.
                  1. Plover
                    Plover 30 November 2022 18: 48
                    0
                    conditional machine must declare itself objectively
                    What do you mean?
                    Design base - secondary
                    I hear a person who has never designed in CAD and on "paper" (drawing + calculations). Following your logic of how to calculate, for example, the need for raw materials and materials for a production schedule - on paper or a computer - is secondary compared to drawing up a product specification. But the truth of life is that for 20 years already, as the second, it has no meaning without the first - design methods greatly influence the process. Add here the fact that more than one person is working on one product, and all this information must be stored, combined, and controlled. Therefore, let a conditional person be at least 7 spans in the forehead, if he does not know how to use tools and interact in this way, he will not succeed. I have not seen any interesting design objects, where the labor input would be less than 300 man/hours (if we are talking about new machines). Such a volume of work without a team and software in the normal life of one person cannot be mastered.
                    1. Vyacheslav Krylov
                      Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 21: 10
                      +1
                      Okay, let your truth. However, let's clarify in the field of rocket science: Sergei Pavlovich Korolev - who is this? Scientist, designer, designer?
                      1. Plover
                        Plover 1 December 2022 11: 54
                        0
                        Speaking in modern terms and in relation to his activities in the creation of launch vehicles, he performed all the roles described. At the initial stage, when something new is created (it doesn't matter - a rocket, the first personal computer or the first DBMS), the so-called hero time takes place. When one or a very small number of people are doing a lot and developing a product at a fast pace. But as the complexity increases, delegation of powers and responsibilities begins. So it was with Steve Jobs and Wozniak when they created Apple, so it was with Larry Ellison, Bob Miner and Ed Oates when they created Oracle DB, so it was with us, in particular with Korolev.
        6. Patriot228
          Patriot228 29 November 2022 14: 15
          +1
          Yes, you are outdated and carry complete nonsense. Therefore, we are marking time. in our state sector managers with an approach like yours. Software development requires completely different skills and, most importantly, vast practical experience, and knowledge of how hardware is arranged is required, God forbid, in 5% of tasks. In addition, deep specialization is still very important in modern development, and it is necessary to constantly change your skills and familiar solutions, because. this is a competitive area, because if you use technology X, and competitors use more modern technology Y, then it may turn out that they will create more stable and reliable code in less time, or they may not, then those who choose technology Y will lose the competitive race. Software development is a real war, whoever does not invest resources in their development becomes uncompetitive. Developers constantly study at courses, many train solving problems after work in order to qualify in a company with a good salary, it’s not enough for you to just be able to solve problems, you need to be able to solve them quickly and efficiently, and for this you need to constantly watch how others do it. This is only in the state. offices have such that engineers are sitting spinning in their juice, doing something the old fashioned way. In addition, if you do not have the most modern skills, you simply will not find a job, hence the z.p. in 200-300 tr. with salaries of engineers at 60-120. In addition, the IT market is a world-class market, before the NWO, American and European companies came to us in search of developers and it was easier to get a job in them than in Russia, but no one came especially for design engineers (except electronics engineers) (perhaps specifics). And design engineers are not particularly needed. a software engineer can make a world-class product without huge investments, while designers need state support.
          1. Vyacheslav Krylov
            Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 12: 39
            0
            Quote: Patriot228
            IT market is a world-class market

            In fact, yes. In terms of expediency, it is highly doubtful.
            Quote: Patriot228
            a software engineer can make a world-class product without a huge investment

            Isn't that a slip of the tongue, software engineer? Marvelous!
            I don't like being in charge of development and production. But if they forced me hard, I would have to separate the professions and put them in the following order: engineer, scientist, technician, programmer. Scientist, technician, programmer - room service. Engineer - elite.
            1. Foul skeptic
              Foul skeptic 30 November 2022 12: 57
              -1
              Isn't that a slip of the tongue, software engineer? Marvelous!

              What bothers you?
              But if they forced me hard, I would have to separate the professions and put them in the following order: engineer, scientist, technician, programmer. Scientist, technician, programmer - room service. Engineer - elite.

              Just like the word?
              1. Vyacheslav Krylov
                Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 13: 24
                0
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                Just like the word?

                They urge me on the side, "well, tell them, tell them!". My answer is "not hotz".
                It's bad for ladies to know. And there is no reason for boys to chew, they themselves know how to get to everything.
            2. Patriot228
              Patriot228 30 November 2022 15: 16
              +1
              I don’t know what kind of “elite” you are talking about, they mainly collect “parts” from Chinese components and parts, something like a technical school. Maybe there was an "elite" in the 80s, but it disappeared long ago, and Russian programmers create and participate in the production of world-class products: unmanned systems, antiviruses, etc., and we all live at our enterprises in the Stone Age, naming whom " servants", and whom the "elite". Savages. And the "servants" are running from such managers, only their heels are sparkling, but I have heard a point of view like yours and one-on-one words more than once and the explanation for this is the "explosive ignorance" of those who pronounce them, because those who "rummaged" something for a long time already opened their businesses and there they quickly put their brains in their place.
              1. Vyacheslav Krylov
                Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 18: 11
                0
                Quote: Patriot228
                I have heard a point of view similar to yours and one-on-one words more than once and the explanation for this is the "explosive ignorance" of those who pronounce them

                This is unlikely. And I don’t have a point, and a point of view, but I have a higher technical education and exceptional life experience. To everyone who wants and can take, I give for free.
                1. Patriot228
                  Patriot228 30 November 2022 19: 45
                  +1
                  IT is a competitive industry, unlike the public sector and the defense industry with money flows from the state, companies compete with each other to release a product or service faster and more reliably, hardware manufacturers also constantly release new products. Not only fundamental knowledge is needed, but also best practices, which requires a very thoughtful look at what techniques and technologies are used from a limitless set of solutions. One technical education is not enough here. The point is not about the "elite" or "servants", but the fact that if you do not use the most reliable and modern solutions, then you can simply ruin the project. If we take, for example, the development of a gas turbine engine for a specialist in particular and there is nothing to choose from where to work and the management of the companies does not seek to lure them, retain, train them, and the specialist himself also has no motivation to develop, no matter how hard he tries in the state, and they won’t pay more than the boss, yes and it makes no sense to strain either, try to find someone else to replace him. Let's take at least satellite communications, there is no competition and consider that there is no satellite communications, therefore "they" have iridum, starlink and a lot of other things, but we have ... well, we have, as usual ... Yes, and an engineer cannot work in separation from science and a powerful economy.
      2. alekseykabanets
        alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 18: 41
        +4
        Quote: Dartik
        cheaper to produce in Asia, and further in Africa.

        For example, China - the standard VAT rate is 13%. For some goods and services, a rate of 9% and 6% applies. The tax rate for small VAT payers is 3%. And compare with the Russian Federation.
      3. for
        for 28 November 2022 18: 51
        +1
        Quote: Dartik
        Alas, Russia is in many ways an expensive country.

        Expensive for tops, but not so much for hard workers.
        From a report with one restaurateur from China: "You probably have Chinese employees, no locals have to pay them less"
    2. alekseykabanets
      alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 18: 37
      +4
      Quote: AlexGa
      and when will engineers and designers be needed?

      And when will there be jobs for them? And what do you have against IT-shnikov.)))) To be able to program, in a dozen other years, it will be like being able to read and write. In general, Zhukov talks more about problems with teachers, and he is really absolutely right.
      1. Alexga
        Alexga 28 November 2022 18: 43
        +1
        What do you have against IT guys?

        Absolutely nothing! I'm talking about the fact that frames are very much needed to create more material things here, in our homeland. There is a problem with this.
        1. alekseykabanets
          alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 18: 55
          +1
          Quote: AlexGa
          Absolutely nothing! I'm talking about the fact that frames are very much needed to create more material things here, in our homeland. There is a problem with this.

          IT-shniks also produce quite material things. For example, microcontroller programmers, for some kind of semi-professional incubator or cheese making, are the same IT-shniks.))))
      2. Vyacheslav Krylov
        Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 12: 57
        0
        Quote: aleksejkabanets
        In general, Zhukov talks more about problems with teachers, and he is really absolutely right.

        Zhukov is not talking about those problems with teachers. Zhukov would say that the teacher from the 5th to the 11th grade is a man, and a woman conducts practice and the like, that everything is acceptable in elementary school, for now. Zhukov would say about training programs. That would be good. So no!
        1. alekseykabanets
          alekseykabanets 30 November 2022 13: 11
          -3
          Quote: Vyacheslav Krylov
          Zhukov would say about training programs.

          This time he really did not talk about the GEF programs.))))) However, he has a lot of videos where he also talks about the stupid GEF textbooks.
          1. Vyacheslav Krylov
            Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 13: 28
            0
            Quote: aleksejkabanets
            However, he has a lot of videos where he also talks about stupid GEF textbooks.

            I am not a fan of Zhukov to follow his fruitful development.
            The article on this resource does not say. Consequently, Zhukov blundered, placed the wrong accents.
            1. alekseykabanets
              alekseykabanets 30 November 2022 13: 39
              -3
              Quote: Vyacheslav Krylov
              The article on this resource does not say. Consequently, Zhukov blundered, placed the wrong accents.

              Do you think that Zhukov should insert a phrase in each of his videos about the unsuitable Federal State Educational Standards program? And it's true, after all, Catton the Elder inserted the phrase "Besides, I think that Carthage should be destroyed" in each of his speeches.)))) In general, after all, it was not about the school curriculum that was being discussed.
              1. Vyacheslav Krylov
                Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 13: 55
                0
                Quote: aleksejkabanets
                Do you think that Zhukov should insert a phrase in each of his videos about the unsuitable Federal State Educational Standards program?

                Not in the video, but in this article. Where does quality higher education begin? You will laugh, but high-quality higher education begins with a kindergarten with its training programs. And so on. Although it is written that Zhukov is a historian, the historical depth of the problem of higher education is omitted.
                1. alekseykabanets
                  alekseykabanets 30 November 2022 14: 07
                  -2
                  Quote: Vyacheslav Krylov
                  You will laugh, but high-quality higher education begins with a kindergarten with its training programs.

                  I won't laugh, it's true. It's just that here he talks about those who teach this program, about their problems, about the fact that a teacher cannot fully teach even the highest quality program if he takes 2-2.5 rates. If instead of teaching or self-development, which is necessary, he spends his time on various matters not related to teaching.
    3. Andrey Moskvin
      Andrey Moskvin 28 November 2022 18: 44
      +4
      [b]need engineers and designers?[/b
      Far worse. You won't find a decent carpenter. Only Central Asians who: "I can do everything, just show me how."
      1. alekseykabanets
        alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 18: 56
        -1
        Quote: Andrey Moskvin
        Can't find a good carpenter

        Maybe it's the price of the issue?
        1. Andrey Moskvin
          Andrey Moskvin 28 November 2022 18: 59
          -3
          70-90t.r. in Tyumen, is that normal?
          1. alekseykabanets
            alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 19: 11
            +1
            Quote: Andrey Moskvin
            70-90t.r. in Tyumen, is that normal?

            Today I do not know, but before it was so-so. My brother in those parts worked as a welder on a pipe, it turned out to be under two hundred.
            1. Andrey Moskvin
              Andrey Moskvin 28 November 2022 19: 21
              -1
              The Tyumen region is the largest of all regions of the Russian Federation. Somewhere in the north (which is even north for us), perhaps. With leaving there health, teeth, lungs. In the city, welders have never received so much.
              1. Sergej1972
                Sergej1972 28 November 2022 23: 11
                +1
                Yakutia and the Krasnoyarsk Territory will be bigger.)
          2. Plover
            Plover 28 November 2022 21: 31
            0
            Here the question, probably, is the constancy of earnings. If such income is only in the season, and the second half of the year is shish, then the salary is already 35-45 thousand rubles. it turns out
      2. Evgenijus
        Evgenijus 28 November 2022 18: 57
        0
        "I can do anything, just show me how."

        Bull's-eye! But in our country, many engineers cannot determine the amount of liquid (diesel oil, gasoline) in liters in a simple iron barrel in their garage, placed on the end, holding a tape measure in their hands. But at the same time, universities often fill the heads of these future engineers (not designers) with the concepts of double integrals.
        1. Paul Siebert
          Paul Siebert 28 November 2022 19: 25
          +2
          Quote: Evgenijus
          many of our engineers cannot determine the amount of liquid (diesel fuel, gasoline) in liters in a simple iron barrel in their garage, placed on the end, holding a tape measure in their hands.

        2. solar
          solar 29 November 2022 11: 20
          0
          this is just natural. The higher the level of specialization, the less general knowledge.
          An attempt to cram everything into the head leads to the fact that a person does not absorb anything.
          1. Evgenijus
            Evgenijus 29 November 2022 11: 48
            0
            solar (Sergey):
            The higher the level of specialization, the less general knowledge.

            Modern military equipment is saturated with electronics, complex mechanisms, optics and even artificial intelligence. Personnel (military engineers of units) must competently operate these weapons. To do this, they must thoroughly know the structure of any weapon assembly, know the rules for its use and conservation. To do this, there is no need to study double integrals in military universities, but at the departments of universities, tear "three skins" from cadets, future military engineers, for knowing the instructions for operating and arranging the entire weapon complex and the principles of its functioning.
            I do not know what the generals who were removed from the NVO studied at the Academy of the General Staff.
            1. Vyacheslav Krylov
              Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 13: 03
              0
              Quote: Evgenijus
              military engineers

              Funny. Come up with another name for the position of a military man serving complex special equipment.
              1. Evgenijus
                Evgenijus 30 November 2022 16: 27
                0
                Vyacheslav Krylov:
                Funny. Come up with another name for the position of a military man serving complex special equipment.

                Vyacheslav, I studied for 5 years as a military engineer. He served complex equipment, a specialist in strategic missile control systems. Everything is correct in my thesis. Where is the funny here?
                [Center]
                1. Vyacheslav Krylov
                  Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 17: 27
                  0
                  Quote: Evgenijus
                  Where is the funny here?

                  The diploma itself is from 1975 with the indicated texts. The USSR excelled. Before, I would have kept silent. But now a new round of reassessments of everything and everyone has begun to unwind - and that's why it could not resist. New times, new criteria and approaches. But Russia is likely to go strictly along the track of the USSR. So no one will raise the bar. Who graduated from the tower, he is an engineer. My diploma says "radio engineer" - the same radish.
    4. Jager
      Jager 28 November 2022 18: 45
      +4
      I have heard this "TOMORROW, engineers will be in demand, we have to be patient a little more" for 18 years, as I graduated from school and entered the institute.
      And only now, when the roasted rooster not only pecked, but kicked the economy and the remnants of industry with all its might, the powers that be stirred.
      1. alekseykabanets
        alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 19: 00
        +3
        Quote: Jager
        those in power stirred.

        What is the stir? Give out cheap loans to entrepreneurs? Was VAT removed? Have social contributions been reduced? No, again it's all just blah blah blah on TV.
        1. Jager
          Jager 28 November 2022 19: 19
          +1
          Funds were allocated to design bureaus and institutes, because. the departure of foreign companies in all its glory revealed the true face of the eight-year-old Potemkin villages of "import substitution".
          Those. in some industries, a complete one (hands-on work and a mess) began - SUDDENLY something had to be decided, designed and built, and not quietly sawing the budget, repainting and wrapping old Soviet developments in a new wrapper.
          Even I received a couple of calls from the country's leading design bureaus.
          PS: and even if they called me on the issue of interviews and employment, then it looks like they are completely sad with specialists there. laughing
          A competent engineer is not so much a specialty as a general outlook, a temperament and, of course, a vocation. And it will not be possible to “quickly” stamp good engineers at a university; this requires time and an appropriate design school. And even with this, a high-quality specialist will turn out in 10 years.
          1. alekseykabanets
            alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 19: 39
            +2
            Quote: Jager
            A competent engineer is not so much a specialty as a general outlook, a temperament and, of course, a vocation. And it will not be possible to “quickly” stamp good engineers at a university; this requires time and an appropriate design school. And even with this, a high-quality specialist will turn out in 10 years.

            It's clear that's all. I'm talking about something else, the company does not have its own money, all borrowed funds (in the first approximation), everything works on loans, but there is no cheap loan and is not expected. No money == no production. The state cannot allocate money to all industries. And you need not only rockets, but also the most ordinary socks or nails.
            1. Jager
              Jager 29 November 2022 23: 27
              +1
              What were the knitting factories in Ivanovo... And where is it all? At best, rented out for warehouses, shops and offices.
          2. Vyacheslav Krylov
            Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 13: 06
            0
            Quote: Jager
            an engineer is not so much a specialty as a general outlook, a temperament and, of course, a vocation.

            Bravo! Very close, 9/10.
    5. ANB
      ANB 28 November 2022 18: 46
      +7
      . now IT people

      At the same time, it is quite difficult to find an intelligent IT specialist for a vacancy.
      1. filibuster
        filibuster 28 November 2022 18: 52
        0
        This is a matter of price and subject area, sometimes a high salary does not help, people do not want to sit and poke around in a “legacy” or work under stress, etc.
      2. Jager
        Jager 1 December 2022 12: 33
        0
        Excuse me, but who are these IT people? An IT specialist can be a regular provider operator on the phone, for example. Such a secretary with knowledge of networks. This is a completely vague concept.
    6. filibuster
      filibuster 28 November 2022 18: 49
      +2
      now IT specialists, but when will engineers and designers be needed?


      And the hedgehog Zhukov himself, on his channel, right during the video under discussion, makes an advertisement for the next "programmer in 21 days" courses, just a reference hypocrisy, or the money doesn't smell.
      1. alekseykabanets
        alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 19: 06
        0
        Quote from: filibuster
        And the hedgehog Zhukov himself, on his channel, right during the video under discussion, makes an advertisement for the next "programmer in 21 days" courses, just a reference hypocrisy, or the money doesn't smell.

        Come on, 21 days! You tell stories. A year or more, the number of hours at skilfactory is three times more than at state "retraining courses" under the "Demography" program, for example. And the typesetters from there seem to be decent ones. You figure it out first before blaming.
        1. filibuster
          filibuster 28 November 2022 19: 34
          0
          All these skillfactories are extremely ineffective ways of learning, exploiting the human desire to “get a freebie”, especially as from Zhukov’s ad about data science. They can be useful for people from the industry who want to move to another area, but have problems with self-management and cannot organize the educational process for themselves (there are a lot of materials now), but for a person from the street it will simply be a waste of money in most cases.
          1. alekseykabanets
            alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 19: 49
            0
            Quote from: filibuster
            All these skillfactories are extremely ineffective ways of learning, exploiting the human desire to “get a freebie”,

            And you yourself try to "get a freebie" in the skillfactory or html academy, for example, then speak.
            Quote from: filibuster
            but there are problems with self-management and cannot organize the educational process for himself

            This is where the learning process takes place. This is something like distance learning, worthy of it "not only everyone can pass, few can do it" (I quote the classics)))). The ability to learn is one of the most difficult skills.
            1. filibuster
              filibuster 28 November 2022 21: 47
              +2
              I don’t know about html, but about data science, I can say, moreover, I had to interview guys who took such courses, and absolutely everyone who had no education or experience before the courses had an extremely weak level. Well, if you don’t take two years of “online” courses, it’s impossible to drive mathematics at the required level, and without a good (university) knowledge of linear algebra, computational algebra, optimization methods, probability theory, mathematical statistics, these graduates do not understand at all how the most the banal method of least squares, a slightly more complicated support vector method, etc., they know that there is some kind of library and if you give it some numbers to the input, it will return something in response, and based on this they solved typical problems of any kind in the courses scoring in “greenhouse conditions”.
              1. alekseykabanets
                alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 22: 16
                +1
                Quote from: filibuster
                but about data science...

                data science is not a profession familiar to me, but I understand that without knowledge of mathematics there is nothing to do there, you have to work on your own, study, study and study.
                Quote from: filibuster
                they know that there is some kind of library, and if you give it some numbers at the input, it will return something in response,

                But they don’t start right away with some kind of frameworks, right after all. Yes, and trainees or juniors come out of there, at best. I don’t know about data science, but I know that the front-end and back-end are usually not badly delivered on such courses, there is a lot of practice and they don’t load frameworks right away, some give a 100% guarantee of employment (I don’t know for how much)))) In any case, you need to learn on your own yet, without it in any way. And you need to count on your strengths, a quiet three-year-old won’t go to the fur mat of Moscow State University, to the commercial department, right?
    7. nobody75
      nobody75 28 November 2022 18: 57
      0
      First, they spawned "Our Soviet Ender Wigan" ... Looking at this "Eugenics Program" I rushed to IT people ...
      Sincerely
    8. Silver99
      Silver99 28 November 2022 19: 03
      +2
      Now you can’t meet an engineer anymore (((everyone is a manager. They come to production only to poke a finger into a smartphone ((((
    9. Bayun
      Bayun 28 November 2022 19: 08
      +1
      Given the situation that has developed in the world with education, this civilization - very likely - will not be able to pass on the fullness of knowledge to the next generations.

      The transfer of knowledge and experience used to be completed somewhere by the age of 25. Now the number of 30-year-old "mitrofanushki" around the world is critically going off scale ... Not theirs, but OUR fault that they were being prepared for a "past life."
      1. Arigin
        Arigin 28 November 2022 19: 44
        0
        Well, don't say it for the whole world. Somewhere they transmit in a real way.
        1. Bayun
          Bayun 29 November 2022 01: 17
          0
          Why not? From covidla, "all regressive humanity" was furious, treated uniformly. Education is the same. Knowing the situation in 2-3 languages, it's easy to figure out the planetary "squiggle";)
    10. Sevastiec
      Sevastiec 28 November 2022 20: 35
      +1
      Quote: Dartik
      Zhukov is absolutely right


      Such Zhukovs, right in everything, like Mr. ... behind the bathhouse. In general, we have a lot of very smart bloggers, journalists, TV presenters, analysts, specialists, political scientists .. etc. etc. Only now, in order for something to change, you need not to be clever on the air of imperialist YouTubes and crooked rutubes, but to take it and do it. Even if at the same time you will not be famous and will not earn much. And it's not as easy as saying smart things and running games. But a real communist, this is not a hindrance, right?
      1. kaa
        kaa 29 November 2022 07: 09
        0
        How long did he work in the museum, more than ten years, is it enough to "take it and do it"? Maybe there is a personal example for comparison?
        1. Sevastiec
          Sevastiec 29 November 2022 20: 43
          0
          And what are the results of his work? I also worked at the factory for 10 years. Did it somehow help the country to get on the new (or old) "rails"?

          Yes, I have personal experience: I am a manufacturer and for several years now I have not used imported components.
          1. kaa
            kaa 30 November 2022 08: 35
            0
            Why didn’t you try so hard with the “rails”, would you take it and do it, since you know the way?
            1. Sevastiec
              Sevastiec 4 December 2022 07: 30
              0
              You do not seem to understand: the point is that there are a lot of talkers around, and few of those who do something "in the fields."

              Anyone and everyone can be clever in tyrnets. Here, for example, every second commentator "knows" that "the state must do this, the state must do this, it must do everything well and do nothing bad" ... (that's just everyone, understands "good" and "bad" according to differently). A whole collection of experts on all issues.

              And I do NOT know how to influence the state and put it on some rails, but I, at least, am busy with real business.
              1. kaa
                kaa 5 December 2022 07: 12
                0
                You also need to point out the problem. And judging by the comments under the video on YouTube, many practitioners agree that the problem in education is overdue. Many wrote there, from preschool mentors to graduate students. By the way, many of them also left the profession for the stated reasons and the inability to influence the policy of the Ministry of Education.
    11. Quote Lavrov
      Quote Lavrov 28 November 2022 20: 51
      -2
      It would be better if they published a video about the film about PMC "Wagner" (https://youtu.be/zsyvz9b5uak). This is what everyone should watch:
    12. akendram
      akendram 28 November 2022 23: 07
      +1
      What does fertile mean? People studied for those specialties that are at least somehow in demand. If we have several factories in each city, then engineers and designers will be needed, and so there are only taxi drivers and sellers around, we sell something to each other and this is now like a market economy. This is one side of the coin, the other is the quality of education. It's crappy, corruption thrives in universities and hence crappy specialists are obtained, plus there is no practice. I am like that, that's why I write.
    13. solar
      solar 29 November 2022 11: 24
      0
      and when will engineers and designers be needed?

      when they will be paid high salaries and it is easy to find a job in their specialty
  2. fiberboard
    fiberboard 28 November 2022 18: 42
    +1
    Well, yes, we didn’t go there. The Soviet system was also not very good. And there was a lot of superfluous, especially in Marxist-Leninist subjects. I studied at the Agricultural Institute. For example, why do I need such subjects as: the history of the CPSU, Marxist-Leninist philosophy, political economy, the history of world culture, the history of world religion, etc. still do not understand. It would be better to add special items. You need a specialist, not a person with a large amount of knowledge. Need to get into universities. Now we teach a lot of people in medical universities, and then no one wants to become doctors. Pay is low, hassle. The same with teachers. Yes, now students are bullying teachers. Some kind of zasr .... 10-12 years old will bring the teacher to hysterics, and the rest are filmed on phones. We haven't had anything like this in ten years.
    1. Artillerieunteroffizier
      Artillerieunteroffizier 28 November 2022 18: 54
      +4
      “Why do I need such subjects as: the history of the CPSU?” lol I understand what you mean, it was exactly the same in the GDR. However, after more than 30 years in capitalism, it is clearer to me than then that there is some truth in Marxism-Leninism.
    2. Andrey Moskvin
      Andrey Moskvin 28 November 2022 19: 05
      0
      fiberboard
      You're not right. The country needs people with a large amount of knowledge who are experts in one or even several areas. But these were made in the USSR ...
      1. Plover
        Plover 28 November 2022 21: 38
        0
        DVP meant precisely a large amount of knowledge in a narrow area, and not a broad outlook on everything. In principle, such people are professionals, but the most "juice" is knowledge at the junction of several disciplines. But such a specialist can only appear on his own and, unfortunately, our system with a rigid curriculum does not allow obtaining such specialists after leaving the university, with rare exceptions.
      2. filibuster
        filibuster 28 November 2022 21: 50
        +1
        Then everything turned out in general and not about anything in particular, of course there is a time when a person-orchestra is needed, but in the general mass a team of specialists in certain areas will always be more effective.
      3. fiberboard
        fiberboard 29 November 2022 08: 30
        +1
        When you come to the doctor for what is more important: so that he knows what kind of illness you have based on the symptoms you listed or so that he knows the April theses? And when you come to the surgeon, do you prefer that he knows anatomy or ,,Antiduring ,,?
        1. Andrey Moskvin
          Andrey Moskvin 29 November 2022 15: 41
          0
          You misunderstood me a little, or maybe I shortened it. Only a specialist, this is a very limited person, knowing nothing but his topic, he, with his Q / O, judges with the aplomb of a specialist on all life topics, where he is not in the tooth with his foot. It is difficult to communicate with such people, and they are complete laymen everywhere, outside their profession. Remember the "Fourth vertebra". There is nowhere to turn, there are only specialists around ...
    3. alekseykabanets
      alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 19: 08
      +1
      Quote: fiberboard
      And there was a lot of superfluous, especially in Marxist-Leninist subjects.

      They would teach these Marxist-Leninist subjects, they would not allow today's mess.
      1. filibuster
        filibuster 28 November 2022 21: 51
        +4
        The first who changed their shoes before my eyes were just the teachers of this very Marxism-Leninism.
        1. alekseykabanets
          alekseykabanets 28 November 2022 22: 20
          +1
          Quote from: filibuster
          The first who changed their shoes before my eyes were just the teachers of this very Marxism-Leninism.

          Yeah, there is such a thing.)))) If I’m not mistaken, Shpakovsky was such a teacher when he writes about museums, it’s any expensive, and when he writes about the USSR, he can’t help but pour a known substance. But not everyone is like that.
    4. Bayun
      Bayun 28 November 2022 19: 17
      0
      Medicine and education are HELP and EDUCATION. They are not reducible to the "service sector". For people who do not feel the word "public services" as an oxymoron, it is useless to even try to explain. Their answer: "Who are you talking to here?"

      The doctor and teacher are now "sellers" and the student and patient are "buyers." The substitution of categories is a direct path to worldly chaos. And if this mess is also digitized! Let's get ... a digital mess;)
      1. Plover
        Plover 28 November 2022 21: 40
        0
        I have been buying services in medicine and education since the first day of work. A couple of times I was there, where they provide "help" and "education". And I can say one thing - this is one of the strongest "motivations" to work hard and a lot, so that there is an opportunity to buy these services, and not receive them.
        1. Bayun
          Bayun 29 November 2022 01: 25
          0
          So the Servicemen also "from the first day" control you and do not experience any inconvenience. Is it stupid to serve if you can MANAGE? Another "reinforced concrete logic": why manage, if it's easier to buy and sell? COMFORTABLE WEAR! (C)

          At least you will PROVE to the rest how the communists did it for 70 years, that "everything is for the best in your slant of the worlds";)
          1. Plover
            Plover 29 November 2022 10: 40
            0
            And the servicemen should manage, but within strictly stipulated limits. It is to manage, and not to serve, because to manage is specificity and responsibility for which you can ask. Manage or buy / sell - I did not understand the question.
            At least you will PROVE to the rest
            I can't prove anything, because being a descendant of the Old Believers-schismatics, I organically do not believe those in power - they will be deceived.
            1. Bayun
              Bayun 3 December 2022 12: 54
              0
              Manage - Rulers. Serve - Servicemen. Eh, if the "descendants of the Old Believers" carefully read the books of their ancestors, for them it would be self-evident.

              The true "model" of society is class. The estate of "Magi" - authorities who are believed not as God, but as people - has been destroyed. "Servants of the cult" and "excrement of the nation" are not suitable for the role of the Magi. The head of the estate of the Rulers - the Tsar - was replaced by the "Joint King" (General Secretary-President). Because of this, servants rule, rulers trade, and merchants serve.

              Among the people, 2/3 are dissatisfied with their jobs in life and - like you - "organically do not believe" the authorities.

              You can fix the case in a year, but everyone in Rus' arranges a situation where "fish walk across the field, toads fly across the sky."
    5. Gardamir
      Gardamir 28 November 2022 20: 15
      +1
      And there was too much
      Here's a fresh one.
      The Ministry of Finance of the Russian Federation will train teachers who will be able to teach financial literacy lessons in the senior grades of Russian schools. This was stated by Deputy Head of the Department Mikhail Kotyukov, the Big Change of the Russian Federation telegram channel reports.
  3. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 28 November 2022 18: 47
    +3
    All these "state should" should be based on good forecasting. And Good Prognosis should be based on sources of objective information and competent replaceable personnel with a clear hierarchy in terms of abilities - we are bad at this, very bad. We know how to puff out cheeks and sparkle with an eye from under bushy eyebrows, but the real competence of many "analysts" in some objectively professional environment (and not in their self-enclosed crowd of ventriloquists) is a very doubtful question. How to look at it differently - remembering how we repeatedly moved plans (the most important ones!), Often exceeding the preparatory stage in time from the initial zero to the final.
    So flushing the "Bolonka" down the toilet is not a difficult task, returning the Soviet homunculus by welding a nameplate to it is also not difficult. It is much more difficult to do all this so that in 10 years this dull discussion in the style of "something needs to be changed, this is some kind of crap" will not be repeated here. This requires Heads with Brains - do we have them in sufficient numbers to realize the scale of the problem and offer the right solution, and moreover with the authority to do everything right "without bad compromises"? Probably not.
    1. Plover
      Plover 28 November 2022 21: 43
      +1
      I'll tell you more - how many times have I asked those who spat at the words "Bologna process": "Tell me, what is the" Bologna process" and why was it bad for Russia?" The maximum that they answered me was about "bachelor's" and "master's". 99% don't even know what it is.
      After all, "crap" and throw it away is easier than offering something.
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 28 November 2022 22: 10
        +2
        I believe that at the moment the main part of the problem is not what kind of system - but that in our country any serious planning in the country has long been drowned in heaps of lies, projectionism, populism and a strong mixture of daydreaming and some kind of tactical situational convulsions "maximum for the medium term. We do not have a clear image of the future - what are we building? what do we want? how far will we go? So far, I don’t see anything in this direction except for the next growing heaps of projecting, from the same personalities that were erected by the previous ones. In such an environment, until the goal and direction are justified and not indicated, the "lapdog" at least increases the competitive value of our specialists outside. It would be correct to discuss its dismantling after the unambiguous designation of the further course for the medium-long term, CONSIDERING CURRENT EVENTS. Namely, the epic refusal of the West to give us loans and cooperate on technology. We will inevitably have to build up a mass of specialists within the country in these areas OR "look sideways to the east", where the "lap dog" will be as in demand as in the west.
        1. Plover
          Plover 29 November 2022 10: 42
          +1
          it will be necessary to increase the mass of specialists within the country in these areas

          I subscribe to all but the above. Yes, ideally. But in reality, unfortunately, it won't. Unfortunately, there are no conditions, no opportunity. God forbid, if it is possible to increase competence in certain critical areas.
  4. Ulan.1812
    Ulan.1812 28 November 2022 19: 04
    +2
    What if Zhukov is right.
    If the reform is carried out by those who introduced the Bologna system, then again they will come up with some garbage.
    In this case, the mockery of our education will continue.
  5. rocket757
    rocket757 28 November 2022 19: 07
    +1
    However, according to Zhukov, the problem of higher education in Russia is long overdue.
    . So we have a whole ball of problems ... education, the sphere of providing educational services !!! one of many.
    Who will decide it??? Again and again, the same fucking managers and other losers who were promoted by dads ...
    In general, everything is tense, somehow!
  6. buslaif
    buslaif 28 November 2022 19: 37
    0
    Quote: AlexGa
    cheaper to produce in Asia, and further in Africa.

    The only question is the quality of iron and specialists, especially from Africa. I recently bought a moped assembled from us from Chinese components. With a good hit ... you can not continue further. I had to redo the mount and put protection on the lower part of the engine. The fidelity of this improvement was later justified by the practice of riding in the forest over rough terrain. The battery failed almost immediately. I replaced it with a motorcycle battery. She cut off 4 gear bolts on the rear wheel due to their unreliable locking and the poor quality of the metal from which they were made. I put 4 Soviet bolts, no problems. Everything that was bought before this Chinese one, starting with needles and ending with more serious things, is frank woof ... well, in general, waste of human life. Now the market is flooded with Chinese cars at awesome prices, I won’t sit down in life, it’s better on a non-new left-handed forik Japanese assembly. When driving on the federal highway, you often encounter car transporters with used Japanese right-handed cars heading to the Urals and further to the European part of the Russian Federation. Here it is the competition to the Chinese auto industry: cheaper and better.
    1. Gardamir
      Gardamir 28 November 2022 20: 19
      +1
      Now the market is flooded with Chinese cars at awesome prices, I won’t sit down
      but they threaten us with a Moskvich car.
  7. ssz
    ssz 28 November 2022 20: 29
    -1
    Klim Sanych fumbles like no one else in this matter.
  8. dv_generalov
    dv_generalov 28 November 2022 21: 00
    0
    A very accurate answer and remark, I graduated from the Academy of Water Transport in Novosibirsk, they were licensed and tried to open a military department in the late 90s, but it didn’t grow together. And as a result, they received a license for training from the AGZ of the Ministry of Emergency Situations of Russia (then the Ministry of Education was not in charge of this) in the specialty: Protection in emergency situations. The most stupid thing is that as soon as the Minister was replaced, this specialization was killed, but at the same time they still managed to break the secondary education system of the Fire Guard. But not about that. The group for graduation we all together (and this is all of us part-time students of the emergency group - we lived together and pulled each other) everyone came out for graduation, all 23 students. It's rare, but we tried. So, after graduation, 5 worked in the system, after graduation, none of the officials of the Glavkov of the Ministry of Emergency Situations of Russia offered positions to the rest, they shied away from us like the plague .... The guys who were in the positions of junior commanders remained in place. The shots worked for a minus, the words are only obscene. As a result, after graduating, I was forced to leave the Glavk from the special forces, the reason was that I did not fit into the personnel policy, the deputy head of the personnel department told me this in the face, after which I wrote a report on the transfer. For the rest, in approximately the same order ... And when I was already studying at the faculty of leading personnel, I encountered an even greater curiosity. The Ministry of Emergency Situations of Russia prepares personnel, but there is NO document, order, on the basis of which it trains officers. And he still doesn't exist. All the documents from the Ministry of Education, as for the lieutenants, at least something can be depicted according to the appointments according to these documents, then as for the listeners of the officers (and this is the captain, the major as a rule) - a complete vacuum. As a result, after graduating from an institution, many, at best, end up in their previous position, or even worse ... It's simple, in 2005 the orders of the Ministry of Internal Affairs on this issue were canceled (project 110 on the training of middle and senior commanding staff), and new and to this day, the Ministry of Emergency Situations has not issued them ... So it turns out that many specialists are simply not in demand even in the system, since local leaders do not have a tool to solve the problem. This issue does not concern the military EMERCOM of Russia, they are regulated by the documents of the Ministry of Defense of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. That's the whole story...
  9. Plover
    Plover 28 November 2022 21: 17
    -1
    our country is no longer part of the Bologna system of education

    The Bologna system greatly aggravated it, because our universities essentially trained specialists, focusing on the Western labor market

    I'm wondering - everyone says that the "Bologna system" (although the European Higher Education Area (EHEA), of which the "Bologna process" is a part) harmed us, made our education worse. In general, can anyone formulate what it is - the "Bologna process"?

    But please write, what exactly did she hurt? The fact that instead of 5 years of specialty, 3 (or 4) years of undergraduate, 3 master's and 3 (or some) doctoral studies were declared? So the Bologna process does not end there. Moreover, these are the minimum values; within the framework of the national educational standard, they could have been done more.

    The idea of ​​the Bologna process was to ensure the comparability of education, so that one could graduate from a university in one country and go to work in another. And how many years you have studied is important, but not decisive.
    1. Foul skeptic
      Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 11: 22
      -1
      The idea of ​​the Bologna Process was

      Remove state participation from the sphere of higher education, consolidate the "commodity" function of higher education and graduates, create conditions for unequal competition, and influence national interests. "Vacuuming" smart students is so pampering, the tip of the iceberg.
      PS In Germany, Spain, France, Hungary, there is strong criticism of the Bologna process in academic circles.
      1. Plover
        Plover 29 November 2022 15: 32
        0
        Remove state involvement from higher education
        where does it say this and how should we implement it?
        consolidate the "commodity" function of higher education and graduates
        Decode, please, the definition of "commodity function" in this context. Not understood.
        create conditions for unequal competition
        What provisions of the Bologna process should lead to this?
        influence the national interest
        More specific?
    2. nobody75
      nobody75 29 November 2022 18: 39
      -1
      Students' choice of subjects of study, "trajectory", WRC .. continue?
      Sincerely
      1. Plover
        Plover 30 November 2022 10: 25
        -1
        Students' choice of subjects of study, "trajectories"

        This is what I was missing! I spent so many hours on strength of materials, materials science, descriptive geometry and a couple more of the same disciplines instead of studying the subjects I really need for work, because so, did the regional authorities and the university decide. Will they work for me later or, maybe, pay the money to the salary? The student within the framework of specialization himself must choose the depth of the subjects studied while maintaining the mandatory minimum. This is the only way to get really high-quality specialists, and not, for example, software developers who, after an exam in the above subjects, do not remember them, and after 10 years remember almost only their names and the shudder with which they prepared for exams and tests. All this nafig was not necessary.
  10. Alexander_First
    Alexander_First 28 November 2022 23: 06
    0
    Thank you, Klim Alexandrovich for a well-disclosed topic, a murdered education in the Russian Federation. That's right, to the last comma.
  11. buslaif
    buslaif 29 November 2022 06: 18
    0
    Quote: dv_generalov
    as soon as the Minister was replaced, this specialization was killed, but at the same time they still managed to break the secondary education system of the Fire Guard.

    The system of secondary technical education was also removed in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, in particular in the Air Force. The officer of the IAS service and support units is mainly an operator. He does not need to serve in a design bureau, or a research institute. Therefore, the training period of 3 years is quite enough to study the materiel with the prospect of its further modernization. Sometimes an officer graduated from the VVAIU with a 5-year training, after graduation he comes to the regiment, where all the positions of engineers are occupied by technicians due to a lack of specialists. An officer is put in the position of a technician on the condition that if the service goes, then they may well be promoted. But this did not always happen, and a person slowly "died" on concrete, or was looking for prospects for a promotion in support units. For the operation of military equipment, a secondary technical military education with 3 years of training is quite enough. He showed himself, perhaps to the academy. Well, after that, go either to the troops, or to research institutes, or as a teacher in military educational institutions. Officers are very expensive for the budget. Let's say the release of one lieutenant-pilot costs 1 million American rubles. With this money, you can train 100 engineers, or prepare 50 doctors of science. Our leadership wants cheaper officers (cheaper girls on the highway), so they come up with all sorts of university training centers (military departments were liquidated) and so on, releasing "jackets" that have a vague idea of ​​\u3b\u2000bthe army. In principle, in engineering positions, in the absence of subordinate personnel, they serve well, but as for personnel and command skills, it’s more difficult. civilians), reduced a large number of military schools and academies that produce officers of acutely scarce specialties.
    1. Lara Croft
      Lara Croft 29 November 2022 10: 41
      0
      Quote from buslaif
      The system of secondary technical education was also removed in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, in particular in the Air Force.

      So can do, like the Anglo-Saxons? To build a system of military colleges, where future sergeants, warrant officers and junior lieutenants would study at the same time, respectively, with different levels of education and training, it is possible to attract up to 80% of teachers "from the civilian" by competition, the remaining 20% ​​of the teachers would be military men who would teach only those subjects that would relate, for example, to the direct operation of flight equipment, the state would save money on the educational process itself 5 years long and on teachers teaching those disciplines that civilians can teach .... and who do not need to provide social security, preferential mortgages, sanatorium - resort support, pay a military pension ...
      Middle-level specialists are needed in all types of the Armed Forces and branches of the armed forces, so military colleges (military staff colleges) must be created to provide them with specific specialists and junior and middle-level commanders ....
      1. nobody75
        nobody75 29 November 2022 18: 59
        0
        In the image and likeness of the clip below? Do you want such a "military college"?

        Sincerely
        1. Lara Croft
          Lara Croft 29 November 2022 20: 32
          0
          Quote: nobody75
          In the image and likeness of the clip below? Do you want such a "military college"?

          By no means.
  12. buslaif
    buslaif 29 November 2022 06: 29
    0
    Quote: Gardamir
    but they threaten us with a Moskvich car

    With "Moskvich" is a different story. A friend of mine bought a 412 in the 90s. After the purchase, he removed the pan and raked out almost a burn of small chips and scale.
  13. Nikolay Malyugin
    Nikolay Malyugin 29 November 2022 06: 44
    0
    Everything, as we see, rests not on command systems, but on the notorious market. Each state is an organism. And if we take the human body, is it a command system or a market one? Of course, there is a struggle of bacteria inside the body, but they do not affect the work as a whole. Commercialism led us to the fact that we began to invest in education in such a volume that we were in 98th place in the world. And once we were the first. As a result, many Ogurtsovs turned out to be at the top, who showered schools and universities with manuals .. The entire budget is divided between the ministry and the executors. It is clear in what proportion.
  14. Ilgizl
    Ilgizl 29 November 2022 07: 38
    0
    As such, there is no Bologna system. There is a club of countries with similar views on the education system. And since it consisted of "advanced" Western countries, our responsible persons from education were very fond of attending events, as a rule, taking place THERE, wanting to join THEIR way of life.
    1. solar
      solar 29 November 2022 11: 30
      0
      Most critics of the "Bologna system" have no idea what is at stake.
      Naturally, if education is closed within the country, no "Bologna system" is needed. In the same DPRK, for example, it would be a pointless exercise.
  15. Lara Croft
    Lara Croft 29 November 2022 10: 09
    0
    Therefore, according to the blogger, first you need to figure out what specialties the state needs, and then train a lot of good specialists, and not solid PR managers and marketers, as is done now.

    Well, state universities can still somehow be reoriented to the specialties necessary for the state (another question is where so many new teachers with experience in the industry and / or scientific research in specific areas of knowledge will come from), and commercial universities work purely at the request of the market and train lawyers , economists, managers, if the market needed engineers, then commercial universities would instantly reorient themselves to training other specialists ...
    Yes, and state universities live and develop at the expense of students and graduate students on a paid basis ..... and the demand for a specialty on the market, the more students in it ....
    The only competitor to the existing state universities (with 80% of paid students) and commercial universities could be corporate universities that would train specialists just for themselves, focusing on those educational subjects that they consider more necessary without violating the Federal State Educational Standard. Khodorkovsky was the first who guessed to make his own corporate university for his business empire, but due to the fact that the Russian state was angry with him, no one wanted to learn from his experience .....
    1. nobody75
      nobody75 29 November 2022 19: 03
      0
      Are you serious? Did you have to work in a "corporate university"? Have you seen these same Federal State Educational Standards - collections of nonsense - in your eyes?
      Sincerely
      1. Lara Croft
        Lara Croft 29 November 2022 20: 46
        0
        Quote: nobody75
        Have you seen these same Federal State Educational Standards - collections of nonsense - in your eyes?

        I saw, it seems they were introduced at 13 ...
        It is assumed that they were made by intelligent and smart people .... probably ...
  16. buslaif
    buslaif 29 November 2022 11: 56
    0
    Quote: Lara Croft
    So can do, like the Anglo-Saxons? To build a system of military colleges, where future sergeants, warrant officers and junior lieutenants would study at the same time, respectively, with different levels of education and training, it is possible to attract up to 80% of teachers "from the civilian" by competition, the remaining 20% ​​of the teachers would be military men who would teach only those subjects that would relate, for example, to the direct operation of flight equipment

    So we have almost everything the same thing was and probably is. In military schools, part of the positions of the teaching staff were civilian. These are mainly general education subjects: foreign languages, history, physics, chemistry, laboratory assistants in departments, etc. Now, almost 50% of the positions in the RF Armed Forces, once military, are staffed by civil servants (I don’t have exact data, but somewhere around 900 thousand). The same is practiced in military educational institutions of the RF Armed Forces. As for the personnel training system of the USSR Armed Forces, there was a system for training officers in schools with a secondary specialized education (the same college, but a large one. In our “college” there were more than 700 souls in a battalion, consider the course) and higher, ensign schools, training for sergeants and privates in accordance with military specialties. There was a system of externships, when the most trained sergeants of extended service and ensigns were sent to short-term courses, say 2-3 months, where they studied. At the end of their training, they passed exams and were awarded the primary officer rank of “lieutenant” by the Ministry of Defense. Fiction, of course, but in the 60-70s there was an acute shortage of officers. High school graduates from military departments were called up to military units (especially to military schools). I think that the elements of this system have been preserved at the present time only under a different name and in a different structure. As for training in student training centers, it seems to me that priority should be given to training in military educational institutions with army specifics.
    . After a student has been trained in a training center, the state essentially does not have an officer, but a person with a vague idea of ​​what he will have to do. Practice shows that in engineering terms, graduates of civilian universities are generally well prepared, but none of the commanders and chiefs. They do not have command skills, they do not know the service of the troops, guards, outfits, drill, tactical and tactical-special training for them, the forest is dark. It will take a lot of time until they reach the given level and produce results. In order not to cheat with the budget and not to produce "ectopic" officers from the civilian world, it is better to increase the number of military universities in compliance with the need for officers and equip the troops and fleet with thoroughly trained personnel officers.
  17. Altmann
    Altmann 29 November 2022 12: 48
    0
    Czech education was at a high level. It was, but no longer. Although the middle generation has a secondary education, we also have universities of a mysterious orientation, but people are uneducated. I know this, I live in the Czech Republic. Surprisingly, we also teach Russian students in specialized agricultural schools, which means that something else can be done, but the general level of the school system is a sad thing. am
  18. certero
    certero 29 November 2022 17: 45
    0
    I love and respect the historian Zhukov, his stories about the Middle Ages and the 100-year war are excellent. But often Klim Sanych gets carried away and he begins to talk about things that he himself is not very well versed in. This is especially noticeable when you yourself understand these things well.
    As for the lapdog system, the main thing that everyone takes up arms against is the exam. Most people don't care about anything else. Although it is a single exam that is the most excellent thing that saves students from subjective assessment.
    And then - what is the goal of Russian education? Without an answer to this question, nothing will work. In the USSR, there was a clear goal - the education of a new person, so they tried to drag everyone up.
  19. Vyacheslav Krylov
    Vyacheslav Krylov 30 November 2022 11: 40
    0
    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
    The word "metaphysical" is used exclusively for the red word,

    I support. Metaphysics is a field for men. The author of considerations that are interesting to me should be based on something earthly, physical: money, wealth, an apartment, etc.
  20. AdAstra
    AdAstra 30 November 2022 15: 03
    0
    In general - the road to a spoon for dinner. """"
  21. Patriot228
    Patriot228 30 November 2022 20: 01
    0
    Quote: AlexGa
    Absolutely nothing! I'm talking about the fact that frames are very much needed to create more material things here, in our homeland. There is a problem with this.

    Were needed - paid. And it will be like with engineers when they are literally "hostages" in the regions, except for 1-2 factories and there is nowhere to go. Even at the institute about 15 years ago I heard this mantra "the time will come and engineers will be needed", who believed in it, ekes out a gloomy existence, and who looked around quickly retrained from an engineer to a manager, economist, lawyer, programmer and quite succeed.
  22. flyer
    flyer 25 January 2023 11: 33
    0
    The availability of higher education (and I'm not talking about money, but about studying academic disciplines, passing tests and exams) is unfortunately a disservice. Yes, the reduction in requirements has made it possible for a much larger circle of people to become the owner of the coveted diploma of higher education, but no one needs such personnel in the labor market. Additionally, it is necessary to introduce a limit on admission in specialties, such as economists, lawyers, political scientists, public administration. There are many graduates in such specialties, but there are no jobs.