Military Review

When "Peonies" and "Tulips" will bloom in full force

93
When "Peonies" and "Tulips" will bloom in full force

The special operation in Ukraine has largely turned into an artillery battle. It would seem that after the "Desert Storm" in Iraq and the "Allied Force" in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY), there was no doubt - aviation can win wars. In fact, the ground forces only had to formally consolidate the results achieved by aviation.


And what do we see in Ukraine?

Russian aviation presses to the ground, Ukrainian aviation, which seems to have been destroyed three times already, although it carries out suicide missions from time to time, but it has practically no effect on the battlefield - except that it urgently evacuates another VIP Nazi or a misguided NATO general to the rear.

Once again, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), including UAV-kamikaze, but even they do not have a decisive impact on the course of battles - this is if we talk specifically about the UAV inflicting strikes on the enemy.

On the other hand, it is the reconnaissance potential of UAVs, as well as the ability to carry out real-time adjustments of artillery fire, that made it possible to increase the efficiency of using even obsolete artillery weapons by an order of magnitude, not to mention modern artillery systems, especially in combination with guided munitions.

And who is at the top of the food chain?

Maybe the newest Russian self-propelled artillery mount (ACS) "Coalition SV"? But these vehicles are still only at the very beginning of their journey, and there is no information about whether they were used at all in the zone of the special military operation (SVO).

Who else? Upgraded self-propelled guns "Msta-S"? German self-propelled guns PZ-2000, handed over by former Nazis to the current ones? Or handed over by Nazi accomplices now and during the Second World War - the French wheeled self-propelled guns "Caesar"?

Or is it the over-hyped American M-777, albeit very effective for use in certain tactical scenarios, but still towed, which means less mobile and faster-firing.


155 mm howitzer M-777. Image by wikipedia.org

All of them are approximately equal, periodically outperforming each other in terms of characteristics, depending on the modernization carried out. But there is something slightly outdated, but still capable of dominating the battlefield, like a bodybuilder in a dystrophic ward - these are Soviet / Russian 2S7 Pion self-propelled guns of 203 mm caliber and 2S4 Tulip self-propelled mortars of 240 mm caliber. The top of the food chain is the tyrannosaurs of their time.

And they have a great future...

Peony and Tulip


Both of these machines were developed and started to be produced give or take at the same time. The 2S4 Tyulpan self-propelled mortar was developed at the Uraltransmash plant in 1971 and has been in operation since 1972, while the 2S7 Pion self-propelled gun was created at the Kirov Plant in Leningrad in 1974 and has been in use since 1975.

When creating these artillery systems, it was planned to obtain a firing range and the power of the ammunition, unattainable for smaller caliber artillery systems. For example, the firing range of an active-rocket projectile from a 152-mm 2A36 cannon is just over 30 kilometers, while for a 2S7 Pion cannon it is already about 50 kilometers. At the same time, the mass of explosive in a 203 mm caliber projectile is two to three times higher than in a 152–155 mm caliber projectile.


Self-propelled gun 2S7 "Peony". Image by wikipedia.org

And, of course, both the 2S7 Pion self-propelled gun and the 2S4 Tyulpan self-propelled mortar can use special ammunition with a nuclear warhead (YBCh). However, the firing range of the 2S4 Tyulpan mortar, which is about 20 kilometers, makes this task risky.

The disadvantages of the "Peony" and "Tulip" include their low mobility and low rate of fire, which is about 1-1,5 rounds per minute - this figure is not comparable with the capabilities of modern self-propelled guns of 152-155 mm caliber, capable of "throw" on enemy positions ten shells. And their ammunition load is incomparable - 4 shells for the 2S7 Pion self-propelled gun (8 shells for the modernized 2S7M Malka) and 50-60 shells for modern self-propelled guns of 152-155 mm caliber. The crews of "Pion" and "Tulip" are outside during combat work, which means that they are not protected in any way from fragments of exploding ammunition and small arms bullets. weapons.


Self-propelled mortar 2S4 "Tulip". Image by wikipedia.org

Both the 2S7 Pion self-propelled guns and the 2S4 Tyulpan self-propelled mortars are used in the course of the NMD by both sides, but how effectively are the capabilities of these weapons revealed?

Development potential


Consider first of all the self-propelled guns 2S7 "Peony" / 2S7M "Malka".

The high power of the ammunition of these guns is offset by their significant size and weight. It is unlikely that it will be possible to significantly increase the ammunition load and rate of fire of these guns without a complete redesign of their design - in fact, a new development will be required.

On the other hand, we have the ability to fire almost 50 kilometers even with existing active-rocket projectiles, which significantly exceeds the capabilities of most self-propelled guns of 152-155 mm caliber, although it is inferior to some models capable of firing active-rocket guided munitions at a distance of up to 70 kilometers.

The firing range of artillery pieces, among other things, is determined by the length of the barrel. The 2S19 self-propelled guns have 47 calibers, the ultra-modern German PzH 2000 has 52 calibers, the French Caesar self-propelled guns and the latest Russian 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV have the same number.


SAU 2S19 "Msta" with a barrel length of 47 calibers. Image by wikipedia.org


PzH 2000 self-propelled guns, Caesar self-propelled guns and 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV self-propelled guns with 52-caliber barrels. Image by wikipedia.org

Self-propelled guns 2S7 "Pion" / 2S7M "Malka" barrel length is 55,3 caliber.

It can be assumed that with the use of modern gunpowders and manufacturing technologies, it is realistic to bring the firing range of self-propelled guns 2S7 "Pion" / 2S7M "Malka" to 70-90 kilometers, which will provide them with absolute superiority during artillery duels with self-propelled guns of a potential enemy.


Of course, projectiles designed for firing at such a range should only be guided. Moreover, it can be assumed that firing unguided projectiles from self-propelled guns 2S7 "Pion" / 2S7M "Malka" is generally impractical due to their small ammunition and low rate of fire - it only wastes the resource of the barrel and exposes vehicles to the risk of return fire.

Based on the foregoing, it can be predicted that in order to significantly increase the effectiveness of self-propelled guns 2S7 "Pion" / 2S7M "Malka" it is necessary to develop:

1. A completely new GLONASS-guided active-rocket guided projectile with a firing range of 70–90 kilometers.

2. A high-precision guidance kit, similar to the American Precision Guidance Kit (PGK) M1156, which we talked about in the material The problem of the high cost of precision-guided munitions and ways to solve it, designed for all types of existing ammunition caliber 203 mm.


Precision Guidance Kit (PGK) M1156. Image by wikipedia.org

The use of a new long-range active-reactive guided projectile will make it possible to destroy the enemy at distances that are now inaccessible to Russian artillery, while the power of this ammunition will be much higher than that of the American M982 Excalibur projectiles. Also, unlike HIMARS missiles, intercepting an artillery shell is an order of magnitude more difficult, if not impossible.

As for the high-precision guidance kit, its use will make it possible to use the stock of available ammunition as fully and efficiently as possible: after all, a range of 25,4–47,5 kilometers is also not bad.

Similarly, it is necessary to do the same with regard to the 240-mm self-propelled mortars 2S4 "Tulip". All the same two types of ammunition - a completely new active-reactive guided mine with guidance according to GLONASS data, with a firing range of 30-35 kilometers (with the current one - 20), as well as a high-precision guidance kit for existing ammunition.

Conclusions


It's funny that the development of military equipment is in many ways similar to the evolution of living beings - the largest, strongest and most aggressive, but highly specialized species are dying out, making way for more versatile species better adapted to a rapidly changing situation. However, this rule is not always true.

The creation of new 203-mm active-reactive guided munitions for 2S7 Pion / 2S7M Malka self-propelled guns and 240-mm active-reactive guided mines for 2S4 Tyulpan self-propelled mortars will change the rules of the game in favor of the RF Armed Forces, at least in terms of artillery confrontation.

And in extreme cases, "Peony" and "Tulip" can still serve as a deliverer of special ammunition capable of burning out everything that is on the route of the Russian army with nuclear fire.
Author:
93 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Ka-52
    Ka-52 29 November 2022 05: 19
    +21
    Similarly, it is necessary to do the same with regard to the 240-mm self-propelled mortars 2S4 "Tulip".

    for the 120th there is a KM-8 "Gran" from the Tula KBP. In fact, the question is only scaling the design solution in relation to other calibers.
    a completely new active-rocket guided projectile with guidance according to GLONASS data, with a firing range of 70–90 kilometers

    don't need a new one. It is also enough at this stage to scale up the design decision regarding the 152mm Krasnopol-D and kick those responsible for the state defense order in the ass.
    1. Timur_kz
      Timur_kz 29 November 2022 21: 16
      +3
      In general, they scored on satellite navigation in the army, because of this they cannot do the same analogue of JDAM
    2. Oleg Ogorod
      Oleg Ogorod 29 November 2022 22: 54
      +4
      Any trunk has its own resource. Then he is replaced. And here the most important thing is, who can produce such a barrel in the country now?
      There is someone who can answer this question.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 1 December 2022 13: 35
        -2
        Quote: Oleg Ogorod
        Any trunk has its own resource

        For Peony, in order to get the maximum range, you need to burn 45 kg of gunpowder .. for a 2A44 monocoque, this greatly reduces life ...
        Quote: Oleg Ogorod
        And here the most important thing is, who can produce such a barrel in the country now?
      2. stankow
        stankow 3 December 2022 13: 15
        +1
        In Perm they can, for sure.

        ...................
    3. Yarr_Arr
      Yarr_Arr 10 January 2023 13: 37
      0
      It is not at all clear what is meant by "scaling design solutions".
      If we talk about the area where "all specialists" - do you think that having documentation for a passenger car, with a couple of improvements you will get a truck ???? Yes Yes.....
  2. tlauicol
    tlauicol 29 November 2022 05: 20
    +9
    Kots wrote that the batteries of Malok and Tulips strike at targets within two minutes after their detection by special forces. Obviously lied. There is a lot of fuss with such a colossus, they are not aimed at the target and charged
  3. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 29 November 2022 05: 21
    +10
    With modern US and NATO reconnaissance tools, they will quickly figure out the location of these guns and cover with Haymars ... here the one who will be the first to leave his position after shooting will survive. what
    1. garri-lin
      garri-lin 29 November 2022 07: 56
      +5
      Very precisely worded. However, they threw out the cons. Weird people.
    2. Murakow
      Murakow 29 November 2022 14: 39
      +12
      From rockets, which are an order of magnitude more expensive than a 203 mm projectile, even in a salvo, you can at least hide behind a pair of short-range air defense systems of the "Tor" or "Pantsir" type, but hardly from a 203 mm blank.
      1. Foul skeptic
        Foul skeptic 29 November 2022 17: 14
        -1
        From rockets, which are an order of magnitude more expensive than a 203 mm projectile

        And the 203 mm self-propelled guns are more expensive than the MLRS. And the chances of surviving the MLRS are higher than those of the 203 mm self-propelled guns.
  4. Valnik
    Valnik 29 November 2022 06: 18
    +2
    Under nuclear ammunition, the issue of accuracy and rate of fire was not raised. And now the priorities have changed. With current technology, the maximum precision-guided munitions in the troops.
  5. demiurg
    demiurg 29 November 2022 07: 04
    +14
    That is, the author proposes to easily and simply create new gunpowder, create a new barrel for higher pressure, redesign recoilers, and quickly develop planning ammunition.

    As a result of all these gestures and spending thousands of money, when firing a guided projectile, you will get a bad competitor to tornado-s. With less range and rate of fire.

    The meaning of 152/203 mm artillery is that it is a relatively cheap and powerful ammunition for firing at areas. Guided ammunition for 152 mm is absolutely justified, 15 km behind enemy lines is the interests of the brigade, and here efficiency is more important than the range and power of the charge. I don’t see the point in a guided projectile, as in general in a 203mm caliber. Now malki / peonies are used simply because they are available.
    1. Sergey Aleksandrovich
      Sergey Aleksandrovich 29 November 2022 08: 34
      +7
      Moreover, there are also cluster munitions in the 203-mm caliber, for which accuracy is not so important.
      1. Eule
        Eule 3 December 2022 22: 21
        +2
        The main reserve for improving the accuracy of 203-mm shells is the improvement of the initial data for firing. Just weigh the projectile, and write the exact weight on it, preferably in a machine-readable way like "chicken code", the same with a powder charge.
        Using the exact weight of projectile and charge data, charge temperature in a ballistic calculator gives a serious increase in accuracy. It is clear that this is also some work, but it is worth it.
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 29 November 2022 19: 09
      +5
      Quote: demiurg
      I don’t see the point in a guided projectile, as in general in a 203mm caliber. Now malki / peonies are used simply because they are available.

      They are well suited for hitting hardened bunkers and the like. Actually, they started talking about them after they had to destroy Azovstal.
    3. fsgt
      fsgt 29 November 2022 19: 26
      +1
      and 122 and 152mm guided munitions, it turns out, are bad competitors for tornadoes?
      "malki / peonies are used simply because they are available" in appearance it is not particularly logical if there is no point in a 203mm caliber projectile, given that only about 450 peonies were made and they are smeared all over the CIS, then they are massively pulled out from storage warehouses - strange, because in the same warehouses there is a huge amount of other artillery, incl. 152mm acacia.
    4. Vlad2012
      Vlad2012 29 November 2022 20: 20
      +1
      The range record in 155 mm caliber was set in 2019 on the serial self-propelled guns G6 of South Africa and Pz 2000 of Germany. Rheinmetall just created a new shot for howitzers in service. Even the towed German howitzer 155 mm L 39 threw him 50 km.
    5. navycat777
      navycat777 29 November 2022 22: 07
      +2
      Quote: demiurg
      The meaning of 152/203 mm artillery is that it is a relatively cheap and powerful ammunition for firing at areas

      The Malka/Peony was developed for the destruction of headquarters and counter-battery fire, and for its time had good accuracy due to the rifled and long barrel. At present, of course, it is inferior in the speed of hitting a target to modern systems. But it is already in stock, it is enough to upgrade it to modern realities, which makes its use payable.
      1. Plover
        Plover 30 November 2022 11: 01
        +1
        I think demiurg meant that modernization would cost a pretty penny, and even after it, in terms of rate of fire and range of MLRS, it would be more optimal and, possibly, more economical. 152/155 has an advantage precisely from the point of view of the economy.
    6. bayard
      bayard 30 November 2022 02: 53
      +4
      Quote: demiurg
      The meaning of 152/203 mm artillery is that it is a relatively cheap and powerful ammunition for firing at areas.

      You just need to correctly understand the purpose of such artillery systems as "Tulip" and "Malka" - these are siege weapons (and mortars), for the destruction of fortified areas, urban development and other stationary targets, in conditions where you can slowly and in relative safety do your job, despite the low rate of fire and the insecurity of calculations. In all other cases, the advantage in terms of effectiveness, efficiency and security is for self-propelled guns of 152 \ 155 mm caliber. Therefore, these tools should be used according to their purpose.
      And for massive strikes with a large caliber of great power, there are the good old Hurricanes and Tornadoes, as well as the new Tornado-S.
      1. Eug
        Eug 5 December 2022 17: 37
        0
        So "slowly" now does not work, or rather, it does not work without losses. And with the advent of BDGLSM (I may be wrong, I'm writing from memory) everything should become even faster - jump out of the 140 km zone. it is at least 2 hours, actually 3-3,5 hours.
  6. aybolyt678
    aybolyt678 29 November 2022 07: 12
    +3
    And in extreme cases, "Peony" and "Tulip" can still serve as a deliverer of special ammunition capable of burning out everything that is on the route of the Russian army with nuclear fire.

    straight oil on the soul ... a very interesting idea. At least dreaming is not harmful.
    1. Vladimir 290
      Vladimir 290 29 November 2022 09: 02
      +4
      there’s nothing about special ammunition at all - they can be easily used by more massive and versatile 152mm systems. These systems (203 and 240mm) were in the high power brigades of the reserve of the supreme commander. And they had to be used massively to perform special tasks. For example, during the Second World War - the assault on Koenigsberg (B-4), i.e. primarily for the destruction of serious defensive structures.
  7. garri-lin
    garri-lin 29 November 2022 08: 02
    +1
    The author talks about two samples that are completely different in purpose.
    Tulip is the destruction of fortifications.
    Malka is counter-battery work.
    Just because they're at the "top" of the chain doesn't make them similar.
    Tulip has a lot of work and can be effective.
    Malka has outlived her life. And distance won't help. The reaction time is long. The accuracy at maximum range is low. Even with a "guided" projectile, it will be almost impossible to hit the identified targets. They just have time to change position.
    1. Andy_nsk
      Andy_nsk 29 November 2022 10: 36
      +2
      Even with a "guided" projectile, it will be almost impossible to hit the identified targets. They just have time to change position.

      I would also note one drawback of guided projectiles compared to guided missiles: very high overloads when fired, (tens of thousands of g), rockets have hundreds of times less overload even with sharp maneuvers. This requires very specific design solutions and significantly increases the cost. I think that the future lies with supersonic and hypersonic guided missiles for the combat zone (including for counter-battery combat), and subsonic cruise missiles for hitting targets deep in the rear.
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin 29 November 2022 15: 41
        +2
        Well, the problem of overloads seems to be solved. At normal ranges for artillery, a guided projectile is economically justified for some purposes.
  8. Jcvai
    Jcvai 29 November 2022 08: 18
    +1
    It is very debatable: to invest heavily in an expensive system in order to throw landmines at + 5-10% to 30 km, according to possibly outdated intelligence data, by the time they reach the position between reloading a small ammunition load.
    Such a large caliber at such a distance is about breaking into fortifications, and not for artillery duels and attempts to get into a truck with personnel.
    Accordingly, as part of the operational destruction of enemy artillery, it is easier and much cheaper for the same scouts to issue several light kamikaze drones with them and high-autonomous beam control means loitering over the front line.
    And for an artillery duel, the same RSZOs will be much more effective, especially if you spice them up with tosochki and sunshine. As far as I understand, it is precisely this tactic that the NATO Himars are now using against us, and the Gradov LDNR units against the Nazis: take a position, quickly empty the ammunition and leave.
  9. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 29 November 2022 09: 01
    +3
    I have great respect for the author, as a specialist in matters of the Navy. But, apparently, in the absence of a descriptive material and technical base, he did not take up his job.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 1 December 2022 13: 47
      +1
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      I have great respect for the author, as a specialist in matters of the Navy. But, apparently, in the absence of a descriptive material and technical base, he did not take up his job.

      It looks very similar .. BK Pion (Malki) - 40 shots. And 4 (8) are self-propelled guns carried directly ..
  10. Arnok
    Arnok 29 November 2022 09: 05
    -1
    capable of burning with nuclear fire everything that is on the route of the Russian army
    .
    This would be the most ... With this route, at least it would be determined.
  11. steelmaker
    steelmaker 29 November 2022 09: 14
    +3
    "Creation of new 203-mm active-reactive guided munitions for self-propelled guns 2S7 "Pion" / 2S7M "Malka""
    It's all "Soviet galoshes." Putin will leave only his percentages of trust behind him. Hucksters can't create anything! So many promising weapons are shown at exhibitions, but we are fighting and modernizing, only "Soviet galoshes".
    1. Dart2027
      Dart2027 29 November 2022 19: 11
      -5
      Quote: steel maker
      It's all "Soviet galoshes."

      About the crisis. Yes, the crisis was deep, and we "fell" more than many countries, absolutely sure. What is it because of? Due to the fact that we have a one-sided economy. And what did she do yesterday? Yes, it has developed like this for 70 years. Because everything we made ...
      Yes, my dears, yes. No need to debate. The fact is that what we produced, and no need to wave your hands, was not needed by anyone, because no one bought our galoshes, except for the Africans, who had to walk on the hot sand. That's the whole point.
      We had a defense industry - cool, strong, and we are still proud of it. We are grateful to our grandfathers and our fathers for creating such a defense industry after the Great Patriotic War.
      Voice from the audience:
      - And the first satellite.
      V. V. Putin:
      - Both the first satellite and the first man in space are our common pride, these are the achievements of the Soviet regime, of which we are all proud. These are nationwide achievements.
      But consumer goods... Zhirinovsky has already said this. Where were they? There were none. Let's not lie to each other and the people. The people know what was and what was not.
      1. steelmaker
        steelmaker 29 November 2022 19: 29
        +1
        "Voice from the audience:"
        I realized that I said stupidity and quickly began to "change shoes". The stupidity said by Putin will remain with him forever!
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 29 November 2022 20: 09
          -2
          Quote: steel maker
          I realized that I said stupidity and quickly began to "change shoes"
          Are you talking to yourself?
  12. User_neydobniu
    User_neydobniu 29 November 2022 09: 42
    -3
    When "Peonies" and "Tulips" will bloom in full force

    When they start using shells with special warheads ... The rest is impossible Wishlist
  13. solar
    solar 29 November 2022 09: 50
    +4
    From the fighting in Ukraine, the author made an erroneous conclusion about the dominance of artillery.
    In fact, it manifested itself in the situation that neither side has modern aviation. If the Americans appeared on this battlefield with their Air Force and intelligence, all artillery would very quickly turn into targets for hunting, like in a shooting range, immediately after the suppression of air defense.
    Therefore, the conclusion is that if you admit that you will have to fight with a modern army in the 21st century, then a fully-fledged, comprehensively developed aviation is what you need in the first place. Otherwise, all your tanks and self-propelled guns will very quickly turn into scrap metal or hide, with little or no effect on combat operations. That the war in Iraq clearly showed.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 29 November 2022 13: 31
      +7
      Quote from solar
      Therefore, the conclusion is that if you admit that you will have to fight with a modern army in the 21st century, then a fully-fledged, comprehensively developed aviation is what you need in the first place.

      Communication is essential first. Otherwise, it will turn out like in Syria in 82, when aircraft that were not bad in terms of tabular performance characteristics in practice had to act as targets over and over again. Simply because the theoretically excellent control system from the beginning of the battles could not provide their guidance, target designation and warning due to the suppression of communication channels.
      1. solar
        solar 29 November 2022 23: 50
        +2
        And it will turn out like in Syria in the 82nd, when the planes are not bad according to the tabular performance characteristics

        Yes, this is one of the problems when they take individual parameters from the performance characteristics and inflate them, forgetting that an integrated approach is needed.
    2. ZAV69
      ZAV69 29 November 2022 22: 50
      +2
      If the Americans appeared on this battlefield with their Air Force and intelligence, all the artillery would very quickly turn into targets for hunting like in a shooting range, immediately after the suppression of air defense.

      But what, the Americans have already fought with someone who has modern air defense? It seems to me that they would also sit at their air bases, because there is air defense that they cannot suppress
      1. solar
        solar 29 November 2022 23: 54
        +2
        there is air defense that they cannot suppress

        In the war in Ukraine, no one has this for sure. Yes, and wherever it was, it is doubtful if he is opposed by full-fledged aviation.
        1. ZAV69
          ZAV69 30 November 2022 00: 14
          -2
          What is not like that? Air defense neither we nor they completely suppressed. Because of our hands being tied, we don’t want to hit residential areas, but they don’t have anything to do, even branded American missiles don’t help, they knock down their air defense. So I say, the Americans will not be able to suppress air defense with conventional weapons. And to climb on the non-basement air defense .... You can stay without aviation in no time. So they will sit at the bases, throw axes and chimeras, and knock down their air defense without any problems, they are still 5-7 years old before hypersound
          1. solar
            solar 30 November 2022 01: 11
            0
            Air defense neither we nor they completely suppressed.

            I'm writing
            neither side has modern aviation.
            1. ZAV69
              ZAV69 30 November 2022 20: 13
              +1
              neither side has modern aviation.
              su30, su 35, su 34, su 57 are much more modern.
              1. solar
                solar 1 December 2022 00: 06
                0
                One or two (or even ten) modern aircraft do not make aviation modern in general. This is a complex concept.
                1. ZAV69
                  ZAV69 1 December 2022 00: 58
                  -2
                  Yes ? Only in the NWO count junk and there is no other than the su 25, and this is now the only attack aircraft in service. Basically managed to rearm. This Khokhols take no where new equipment. It seems like they promised them f16, only when else will it be
                  1. solar
                    solar 1 December 2022 01: 54
                    +2
                    Modern aviation is a complex concept. And not a couple of wunderwaffes.
                    In addition to shock, it includes the ability to conduct reconnaissance and have the necessary means of destruction, including electronic ones, as well as the ability to provide a significant number of sorties.
                    1. ZAV69
                      ZAV69 1 December 2022 07: 46
                      -2
                      In short, a spherical horse in a vacuum that no one has. Therefore, all this is, as it were, available, and there are few sorties. That is, in your opinion, this is not modern aviation. Do you know why there are so few flights? And because aviation is now expensive. It is not only expensive, but often unaffordable for many people. Therefore, they, aviation, are now protected. If there is a risk of catching an anti-aircraft missile, then aviation does not fly. If you start using aviation as in World War II, then there will be ashes in the rear, but horns and legs will remain from aviation. And most importantly, pilots die. And now pilot training is at least 5 years, and not like in the 40s a couple of months and into battle. And health standards are different too. And if you take Western aviation, which in your opinion is modern, then since the time of Vietnam, I don’t remember a single war where aviation would really go through modern air defense. And even in this case, the old Serbian cave dumped the stealth, there was a huge scandal.
  14. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 29 November 2022 11: 33
    +4
    I am also sorry to part with "Peonies" (!) ... but what can you do! (I already cut peonies for the winter in my dacha ...) In the 80s of the last century, the Americans developed a guided 203-mm projectile with ARL.GSN and ramjet engines with a range of up to 70 km. But they stopped without finishing ... just the army decided to abandon from caliber 203 mm! In Russia, they also promised, somewhere, in 2021, to develop a guided 203-mm projectile ... but even here there is "silence"! exceed 203-mm artillery shell in terms of explosive mass by 70-152 times! That is why it is worth thinking about the experience of NATO, who shoved a 2-mm projectile into the form factor of a 3-mm projectile! That is, shove the 127-mm artillery shell "Krasnopol-D" into the form factor of the 155-mm artillery shell! Saving "space" is filled with solid propellant rocket engines or ramjet engines! Or maybe ... well, his nafik, "Peony"? There are "Hurricanes" and "Tornados" ... even "Hurricane-152M"! With the introduction of guided (corrected) rockets into the ammunition load of these MLRS, "Hurricanes", "Tornados" cease to be "pure" MLRS, but are "transformed" into multiply charged high-precision "reactive artillery" systems! (You can fire at several targets in succession with "single" ones!) Say that an artillery shell is more difficult to shoot down than an RS? So, equip the "booster rocket" with several solid propellant rocket motors with simultaneous operation ... with a detachable warhead! We get a hypersonic missile with a detachable "projectile" warhead! Try it, crash it! And with the Krasnopol-D projectile with a laser seeker at the "end", not everything is clear! I think that modifications are needed ... such as "Krasnopol-D / T" with a television guidance system at the "end" (except INS + GPS ...) and "Krasnopol-D / P" with a passive radar seeker ... (" It works "like Excalibur", but when the enemy uses counter-battery radars, the PRL.GOS "turns on" ...)! In general, any ideas for your money! wink
    1. storm
      storm 30 November 2022 00: 23
      +3
      Nikolaevich I (Vladimir)
      In the 80s of the last century, the Americans developed a guided 203-mm projectile with ARL.GOS and ramjet engines with a range of up to 70 km.


      The US Army decided to abandon the 203 mm caliber with an almost ready-made guided projectile, not because it has no advantages over 155 mm, but because the complex is very heavy.
      On your continent, there is no one to fight with 203 mm artillery of the US Army, and it is very inconvenient to carry it around the world ...
      In addition, the main opponent of the USSR "rested in a Bose .."

      An active-reactive 203-mm artillery shell, even if it reaches a range of over 70 km, but will not exceed a 152-mm artillery shell in terms of explosive mass by 2-3 times!

      With a range of more than 70 km, a guided active-rocket projectile for self-propelled guns 203 mm is needed primarily for counter-battery combat, it does not need increased charge power, it is enough to accurately hit the target with a charge of 6-7 kg, like a standard 152 mm projectile, while enemy gun or self-propelled guns will be guaranteed to be destroyed.
      With two hands I vote for adapting the existing Krasnopol active-rocket projectiles (152 mm) for firing at 80-100 km from 203 mm guns.
      In addition to GLONASS guidance, long-range ammunition also needs a laser beam guidance function from UAVs in order to hit not only stationary, but also moving targets.
      The same self-propelled guns or MLRS of the enemy that fired back and went to a new position will "illuminate" our UAV and they will be destroyed even on the march.
  15. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 29 November 2022 11: 36
    +4
    1. A completely new GLONASS-guided active-rocket guided projectile with a firing range of 70–90 kilometers.

    For the price of which, at the same range, it will be possible to launch a 300-mm corrected RS with a multiple more powerful warhead.
    All these perversions with ultra-long-range firing from classic guns rest on the laws of physics: the volume of the projectile is limited, its body must withstand the loads when fired, when it is kicked in the ass from zero to almost a kilometer per second along the length of a 55-caliber barrel. That is, it is also impossible to weaken the walls - otherwise it will be like the French on the Richelieu, when at the very first salvo two shells exploded in the barrel channels (and one more later - when unloaded with a shot). This means that any additional gadgets, such as gas generators and correction devices, take away mass and volume from explosives.
    The RS has much less such problems - their acceleration goes to a much greater distance, so there is no need to spend extra metal on the strength of the hull, comparable to the projectile. Plus, their dimensions are quite enough for both warheads and "gadgets".
  16. Conjurer
    Conjurer 29 November 2022 12: 12
    0
    The use of a new long-range active-reactive guided missile will make it possible to destroy the enemy at distances now inaccessible to Russian artillery

    The difference between a cannon and MLRS is only in the principle of dispersal of the warhead. If we are talking about guided munitions, that is, leveling the difference between these products, then there is no point in fooling around with large-caliber and long-range guns. MLRS, they still will not surpass. Heavy, slow, with a low rate of hitting targets. So, hardly.
    1. storm
      storm 30 November 2022 01: 16
      +3
      =Conjurer
      The use of a new long-range active-reactive guided missile will make it possible to destroy the enemy at distances now inaccessible to Russian artillery

      there is no point in fooling around with guns of large caliber and long range. MLRS, they still will not surpass. Heavy, slow, with a low rate of hitting targets. So, hardly.


      There is no need to fool around with large-caliber guns (203 mm), they are already in the troops (60 units) and at storage bases (260 units).
      If you adapt the 152mm guided "Krasnopol" for firing from the Pion / Malka SAO, make an actual sub-caliber projectile with an increased jet engine, then it is quite possible to achieve a range of 100 km or more.
      For counter-battery combat, the power of a 152 mm projectile is more than enough, but not a single enemy self-propelled gun will be able to "get" our SAO with return fire.
      Shooting down an active-rocket projectile is also a much more difficult task for enemy air defense.
      Therefore, at ranges up to 100-120 km, large-caliber cannon artillery with new long-range guided munitions will still be able to compete with no less heavy Tornado-S MLRS.

      "Krasnopol" is equipped with a semi-active laser homing head 9E421. In the transport position and at the time of the shot, the seeker is covered with a drop cover. On the descending part of the trajectory, the head searches for a target illuminated by a laser designator. The QUO is provided no more than a few meters, regardless of the firing range. The defeat is carried out by a high-explosive fragmentation warhead weighing 20,5 kg, the mass of explosive is 6,4 kg.
      In the middle of the tenth years, the development of the Krasnopol-D project was reported. Its main innovation was the use of satellite seeker.

      If we combine in one long-range projectile Krasnopol-T (tulip) the ability to target both Glonass and a laser beam, then it will be possible to conduct accurate fire both at stationary (guided by GLONASS) and moving targets (guided by a laser beam) with external illumination from a UAV or from a remote spotter.
      1. Conjurer
        Conjurer 30 November 2022 12: 36
        0
        Well, let's do it. The gun barrel has a limited resource in terms of the number of shots, and if you want to use the available guns and ammunition for them, so as not to just throw them away, you use them with minimal alterations. Since the number of shots (i.e., the shells you can fire) is limited, any rework is development money that you will then throw away along with the guns.
        If you can get a cheap guidance system installed in place of the fuse (similar to the American one), it makes sense, but it doesn’t make sense to develop (work out, test about all the parameters and conditions) a new projectile.
  17. Popenko
    Popenko 29 November 2022 13: 05
    +3
    Too specific topic. As they say - "On the one hand, it is impossible not to recognize ... On the other hand, one should take into account ...". A large caliber, in my opinion, is needed. but on a limited scale. For example, for the assault on Avdiivka. To hit this area with 12 inches - maybe there were no shelling of Donetsk.
    1. stankow
      stankow 3 December 2022 13: 30
      0
      Ops, 12 inches was really cool, 305 mm. But there are none, only 8 inches, 203 mm wink
  18. place
    place 29 November 2022 13: 23
    0
    About the "power of ammunition" and "nuclear fire" - that's all good!. But maybe I didn’t read carefully and missed about how things are with production now and in general, what kind of ammunition of what mass is needed to destroy modern fortified areas, and not those that were 50 years ago? Judging by Avdeevka, we can’t do a damn thing .... no matter how we puff out our cheeks.
    As during the Second World War there was a warhead of large calibers of 100-140 kg, so it is now, only the range has increased - is it good, is it right, and why did it turn out that way, and why even Iskander can’t do anything with Avdiivka? And all sorts of patriotic blah ... blah ... we have already heard enough through the roof.
  19. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 29 November 2022 18: 14
    +2
    Based on the foregoing, it can be predicted that in order to significantly increase the effectiveness of self-propelled guns 2S7 "Pion" / 2S7M "Malka" it is necessary to develop:


    One way or another, Malka is a product of the 80s. You need to think (when the issue with the quality and seriality of barrels for the armata and the coalition is resolved) a new barrel with a larger chamber (it can reduce the caliber to 180mm ....) maybe not. I think that the range, taking into account the caliber, can be brought up to 100-150 km. And Glonnas hovering naturally
  20. Scharnhorst
    Scharnhorst 29 November 2022 18: 27
    +4
    Regarding aviation in Iraq and Ukraine - I would like to look at the valiant American aviators if up to a dozen Stingers worked on them per flight ... No.
    However, the firing range of the 2S4 Tyulpan mortar, which is about 20 kilometers, makes this task risky.

    It's time to introduce NVP at school

    really bring the firing range of self-propelled guns 2S7 "Pion" / 2S7M "Malka" to 70-90 kilometers

    Why do this if there are large-caliber MLRS with such a range? In the presence of decent military air defense, aerial reconnaissance to such a depth will be extremely limited, which means there will be no accurate and timely control center.
    Now, if the reliability and accuracy of guided and corrected ammunition of this caliber made it possible to work along the enemy’s front line from the depths of its defense on target designation by forward artillery observers, then such arrivals, even with the existing rate of fire, range and ammunition load, would be stunning for the enemy.
    Thanks to the author for the article and the current topic. drinks hi
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 30 November 2022 11: 23
      +1
      Quote: Scharnhorst
      Regarding aviation in Iraq and Ukraine - I would like to look at the valiant American aviators if up to a dozen Stingers worked on them per flight ...

      This problem in the US Air Force was solved a long time ago - by work due to the range of destruction of MANPADS with the help of URO and KAB.
      The same "Warthogs" with their brrrt remained in service only because it was necessary to kill zusuls without air defense for a small price. If it weren’t for the Afghan and Iraq, then the “penguins” would have replaced them in the role of support aircraft for the ground forces.
  21. futurohunter
    futurohunter 29 November 2022 18: 29
    +1
    Finally, Tulip has a Daredevil guided mine. It is possible to shoot down a projectile in flight, especially in the final section of the trajectory, where its speed is not so high. Moreover, the 203-mm projectile, which is quite large.
    I think that it is inappropriate to increase the firing range of guns. All these active-reactive ones have a reduced charge power. Yes, and missiles at such a range are more effective, and launchers are simpler. At such a range, by the way, "Smerch" can also work, which will be more efficient
    1. storm
      storm 30 November 2022 00: 44
      +1
      Quote: futurohunter
      Finally, Tulip has a Daredevil guided mine.


      Mina "Daredevil" carries an explosive charge weighing 32 kg. Such a charge is placed in a metal case, crushed into several thousand high-speed fragments. In terms of high-explosive fragmentation, the 3F5 mine is at least as good as other munitions in 240 mm caliber. The maximum firing range reaches 9,5 km - also at the level of other mines, but the range is certainly not enough .....
  22. Duncan
    Duncan 29 November 2022 20: 56
    -2
    The sub-caliber projectile would be to 203 mm. Due to the high speed and elongation, it would fly a hundred kilometers (the shell of the Paris cannon in the First World War flew 120 km due to the extra-long barrel and speed, like BOPS). Of course, it must be adjustable.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 30 November 2022 11: 25
      +3
      Quote from dunkan
      The sub-caliber projectile would be to 203 mm. Due to the high speed and elongation, it would fly a hundred kilometers

      Gorgeous. Get a 203mm projectile with the power of an 85-100mm projectile for the price of a long-range RS. smile
      1. Duncan
        Duncan 30 November 2022 14: 34
        -1
        A 25 kg projectile will fly through the air defense system or Hymars, no one will even have time to detect a shot.
        Enough for any equipment, but reloading will not be any problem.
  23. Beaver
    Beaver 29 November 2022 23: 04
    0
    I can design a GLONASS homing warhead in 2-3 months and set up their production in 3 more months, 5 thousand per month. But no one turns. Wow, such talent is wasted.
    1. svan26
      svan26 30 November 2022 12: 28
      +1
      Here you go! Folk art has begun! I can pay for the design and launch of the pilot batch ... By the spring we will have time. What do you say beaver!
      1. Beaver
        Beaver 2 December 2022 17: 19
        0
        I can do it myself, but I won’t be able to attach the product - Rostec has its own kulibins
  24. Veter5757
    Veter5757 29 November 2022 23: 22
    -2
    Tell Shoigu about the modernization of Tulip with Peony. He will immediately master the budget)))))) They will create shells, but mice will eat them)))))
  25. garik77
    garik77 29 November 2022 23: 48
    0
    The author makes a strange conclusion. We do not have attack drones in the required quantity, at one time they missed this direction, now we are trying to catch up, and there are cruise missiles, but it seems not so much as to shower them with blood. The Americans, if they need it, shoot hundreds of their tomahawks and don’t really care, we don’t seem to be able to afford this. Hence the leading role of long-range artillery
    1. Eugene Zaboy
      Eugene Zaboy 30 November 2022 01: 05
      0
      The Americans shoot at targets in real time, and we, apparently, can only work effectively enough at stationary targets. If something is moving, it is no longer a target for our systems. At least for now.
  26. Eugene Zaboy
    Eugene Zaboy 30 November 2022 00: 38
    0
    The massive use of artillery in Ukraine is explained by the lack of an effective satellite constellation in the Aerospace Forces.
  27. garik77
    garik77 30 November 2022 01: 30
    +1
    Quote from Eugene Zaboy
    The massive use of artillery in Ukraine is explained by the lack of an effective satellite constellation in the Aerospace Forces.

    Nope. Not overwhelmed by air defense. We are just trying to avoid losses in the sky. The dill developed a tactic for attacking our planes in pursuit when they were bombed and retreated. Those. they understand that they cannot protect anything with their leaky air defense, but they are quite capable of spoiling us.
  28. garik77
    garik77 30 November 2022 01: 34
    +1
    Quote from Eugene Zaboy
    The Americans shoot at targets in real time, and we, apparently, can only work effectively enough at stationary targets. If something is moving, it is no longer a target for our systems.

    Cruise missiles are not designed to hit moving targets from the word at all. They are too slow for this, the speed is subsonic. By the time such a missile reaches the target, the tank or whatever will have already left for kilometers. And why shoot a 500kg warhead at a tank? It's like shooting a sparrow from a cannon.
    1. Georgy Sviridov_2
      Georgy Sviridov_2 30 November 2022 20: 29
      0
      Well, it depends on what kind of cruise missiles ... RCCs are also cruise missiles, but they are also designed and supersonic.
  29. Georgy Sviridov_2
    Georgy Sviridov_2 30 November 2022 20: 28
    +2
    Well, for a tulip, adjustable shells were still in the USSR, it’s not difficult to upgrade on a modern base.
    There is also an active-rocket projectile for him.
    It is possible to create a correctable projectile for the bully, there are no problems to take the developments of the redfield, the question is different, there are few, new ones are not produced ... In the end, it’s not so important ... For the bull, the main thing is special shells per hour Ch.
    Malka, IMHO, is not effective as a counter-target weapon now ... It can be hit by RSZO, aviation, and even long-range artillery of a smaller caliber, corny driving closer ... The same acacias of the Krasnopole and completely burn more long-range artillery for obvious reasons, firstly it does not work from the maximum range, secondly, it hits targets in the depths of the enemy, as a result, it shoots conditionally at 40 km there, and from it to the front line 20, as a result, if the acacias quickly advanced and struck, then they hit, even nones work like that .. .
    But for hacking, we strengthened areas from the maximum distance, precisely when you need to throw a lot and for a long time in squares, including so that later someone can carefully work out with the same lancets / red fields and small targets will do.
    As counter-battery shooting, lancets and tornado rocket launchers with adjustable projectiles are interesting ...
    But yelling, I say, all these corrected projectiles are good where either the "waiters" give the coordinates of stationary targets or it is possible to throw a bird with laser illumination. If there is nothing to correct, the sense of guided projectiles drops sharply.
  30. Igor Zhorov
    Igor Zhorov 1 December 2022 18: 17
    +1
    Such powerful systems are needed to destroy the enemy's reinforced concrete defense points, especially when it is impossible to use aviation. And long-range precision-guided munitions are needed to illuminate the object and destroy it. The cost of ammunition is paid off by the lives of soldiers who storm the fortified areas, and artillery is essentially powerless because shooting into the lunar landscape is not very effective.
    1. garik77
      garik77 1 December 2022 22: 00
      +1
      Iran produces its own glide bombs with a range of 30 and 50 km. And we are shit. Although there were reports in the media about the testing of such weapons with us. But where these bombs are is a mystery.
  31. and-yakovl
    and-yakovl 2 December 2022 09: 22
    +1
    Isn't the author aware that for the "Tulip" the mine was developed a long time ago by the "Daredevil" called, another question is where they are. And so they were still used in Afghanistan and showed themselves very well.
    1. stankow
      stankow 3 December 2022 13: 12
      0
      Smelchak also worked in Mariupol, according to Azovstal. Seen on video.
  32. stankow
    stankow 3 December 2022 13: 11
    0
    ~~~~ The firing range of the 2S4 Tyulpan mortar, which is about 20 kilometers, makes this task risky.

    Located at least 10 km away from the epicenter of a tactical nuclear charge (up to 20 kt) is more than safe for calculation.
    1. agond
      agond 4 December 2022 11: 05
      0
      In addition to self-propelled guns with a long range, we also need assault, "short-barreled" increased caliber for direct fire in urban areas. The skyscrapers greatly complicated the assault, in fact, several 152mm hits are required to destroy them. It would be logical to convert some of the Peonies into assault ones, with a short barrel,
      1. Barberry25
        Barberry25 8 December 2022 11: 41
        -2
        1) even a few shells do not destroy the building - it has been checked in Mariupol more than once, to fold the building you need a bunch of ammunition and do something in such a larger caliber, at least stupidly, the best option for attack aircraft has long been named - Tank with Bakhcha and AGS + shells in caliber 100 mm thermobaric.
  33. Barberry25
    Barberry25 8 December 2022 11: 39
    -2
    The author is right. For Malok, you need corrected by analogy with Krasnopol and high-precision shells with satellite correction, and all this, coupled with an increase in range - the UAV takes the coordinates of the identified target and flies further, and the Malki roll around the square and strike
  34. kartantirambler.ru
    kartantirambler.ru 8 December 2022 15: 34
    0
    When will the "Coalition" start working???
    1. Sergei N 58912062
      Sergei N 58912062 9 December 2022 04: 08
      -1
      Only God knows this! But I want it to happen as soon as possible!
  35. cucun
    cucun 9 December 2022 00: 53
    0
    We need more Coalition SW. Firepower can come close to Malka...
    1. kartantirambler.ru
      kartantirambler.ru 23 December 2022 15: 30
      0
      The main range is to get the Chimers: Malka - 50 km, Coalitions of the SV - 80 km.
  36. Sergei N 58912062
    Sergei N 58912062 9 December 2022 04: 06
    0
    That's right, "Peonies" and "Tulips" will bloom in full force when new active-reactive guided munitions for them appear! But when they will appear is another question.
  37. zenion
    zenion 31 December 2022 14: 30
    0
    So, in five years, to learn, perhaps, to make such weapons, which were made in the USSR in a short time. The trouble is that there are no interested people in this. There is no power for which a person comes first, a person who works for the good of the country, not the pocket. Man is now a wolf to man.
  38. The comment was deleted.
  39. sgrabik
    sgrabik 23 January 2023 01: 17
    0
    Self-propelled guns "Coalition SV" in sufficient quantities for our army are needed no less, now we need to pay the closest attention to accelerating the serial production of new types and types of weapons, and older, but still quite effective weapons need to be modernized and constantly improved.
  40. stankow
    stankow 30 January 2023 23: 03
    0
    All articles by the author about artillery are weak. And zta is more ridiculous than all.