Military Review

Medieval weapons in miniatures

149
Medieval weapons in miniatures
In the Middle Ages, it was the spear that was the main weapons equestrian jousting. Walter de Milimet: "On the nobility, wisdom and prudence of kings", 1326-1327. Christ Church, London



"... and they will kindle a fire, and they will burn their weapons,
shields and armor, bows and arrows, and maces, and spears;
I will burn them for seven years. And they will not carry firewood from the field,
nor cut down from the forests, but only weapons will be burned;
And they will plunder their robbers…”

Ezekiel 39:9, 10

History Middle Ages. Today we have ... a completely “passing” article, containing absolutely nothing new, except for beautiful miniatures from medieval manuscripts.

Let me remind you that there are a lot of them, so many that it is impossible to say, for example, only 86 copies were made according to Jean Fraussard's Chronicle alone. He himself had already died, and copies continued to be rewritten and decorated with miniatures, so they are all different, although the texts are almost the same. And they are located in a variety of places, ranging from the British Library to the Pierpont Morgan Museum and Library. And each has its own set of illustrations, and each is informative in its own way.

And today we will briefly go over the entire history of knightly weapons, and “pictures” from manuscripts will be used as illustrations, with the exact design of the captions. This is in case any of the readers of VO is inspired by this topic and decides to test their creative powers in writing historical articles with miniatures from manuscripts as decoration. What the hell is not joking, suddenly someone in this topic will try himself. So, let's begin…


"Winged Spear". Fragment of a miniature from the manuscript of Gerrada of Landsberg "The Garden of Delights", 1195 Alsatian library Credit Mutuel, Strasbourg, France

First of all, we note that on the miniatures of 476-1450. most often depicted such weapons as a spear. Which, of course, tells us that it has been the most common type of weapon since ancient times.

As you know, the oldest spearheads were found in East Africa long before the Middle Ages. They are about 280 thousand years old, that is, they are 80 thousand years older than the earliest remains of people of the modern species Homo sapiens, and 200 thousand years older than other samples of similar artifacts that were still considered the oldest!

Spears in antiquity were used everywhere, and the soldiers of the European "barbarian kingdoms" also got from the dead ancient Rome. Moreover, they were mainly with tips of two types: without a crossbar on the sleeve and with a crossbar in the form of two rather long protrusions - the so-called "winged spear". The crossbar did not allow the tip to enter far into the body of the enemy, but it increased the cost of the tip, since at that time there was a shortage of metal in Europe. That is why on the hunting spears of the X-XV centuries. instead of a metal crossbar, a wooden stick on a strap was used. She got up across the movement of the shaft and created an emphasis on it!

Both horsemen and foot soldiers used such spears, only the horsemen's spears at that time were almost always longer than the spears of the infantry. Then, at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, a round metal plate was added to the horseman's spear on the pole, which in England was called the "wamplet", and in France the rondel. At the beginning of the XNUMXth century, one can already detect the difference between spears for war and for knightly tournaments.

Miniatures from this period show us that the difference was that the spearheads, as before, were either flat or needle-shaped. But those that were used in tournaments became blunt. Moreover, tournament spears were often drilled inside so that they would break even with a not very strong blow, and thereby save the lives of the participants in the competition.

Combat spears had the same shape, but with a sharp tip. It is interesting that if suddenly the knights were ordered to dismount and go into battle, like infantrymen, they had to chop off shafts that were too long to make it more convenient to fight with spears in hand-to-hand combat. Spear shafts at that time were usually made of ash.

So it’s by no means a sword, as many people think, but it was the spear that was the most massive weapon of the Middle Ages, both proud knights and commoner infantry. Their consumption was also large. So, only one knight Ulrich von Liechtenstein broke 307 spears in just one "tournament season"! That is, their "production" was truly massive!


Knightly duel on spears. The spear on the ground already has a wampite. Giron le Courtois, 1420 National Library of France, Paris

The sword is the second most important weapon of the Middle Ages, and to a greater extent the weapon of the knights, and not the foot soldiers, since good swords, like armor, have always been piece work.

Medieval swords had as their ancestor a Roman sword called a spata and suitable for both cavalry and infantry. However, they stretched out in length, and over time received a handle of a different shape. For some reason, some of us believe that medieval swords were excessively heavy. I have heard that they weighed 5, and 15, and even ... 50 kg!


"Carolingian" sword in the "Stuttgart Psalter", ca. 830 Württemberg State Library, Stuttgart

But this is all fiction! In fact, the weight of a medieval sword, ranging from the "Carolingians" of the era of Charlemagne and his heirs, Viking swords and "Crusader swords", averaged only one kilogram - some weighed a little more, some less.

Two-handed swords, with which novelists and filmmakers love to equip their heroes, were not at all the weapons of knights, and they began to spread en masse only ... in the 1240th century! But “swords in one and a half hands” or “bastard swords” (that is, with an elongated handle, so that they could be held with two hands), which appeared around 94, did exist. The largest swords of this type were distinguished by blades from 102 to 23 cm and handles of XNUMX cm.


Knights with swords in "one and a half hands". On the left in the hands of a warrior is the banner of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. "Lives of Saints Edmund and Fremund" 1433-1434 Bury St Edmunds, British Library, London

Historians have long noticed that earlier swords differ from later ones. The former have a wide, straight, slightly pointed blade with one fuller on each side (the fuller is a groove in the center of the blade to lighten the weight). The second ones look like an elongated triangle, usually with a rhombic or hexagonal section. Their weight is about the same, but the first is more convenient to chop, but the second - to prick!


Miniature from "Romances about Arthur". It depicts a one-legged knight with a stick and a sword of a purely piercing type. Manuscript 1275–1300 France. Yale University Library, New Haven

To distinguish them all, the English historian Ewart Oakeshott came up with a typology accepted today by most historians. It has 10 types of cutting swords and 12 types of stabbing. The easiest way, however, is to distinguish them by time: until 1280, swords were mainly chopping, but then they were piercing, since plate armor appeared on the warriors.

Again, judging by the illustrations from manuscript I.33, known as "Fechtbuch of the Tower", written around 1300, or between 1270 and 1340, fencing already existed then, and it was taught like any other skill. And if “in the times of the Vikings” the blows were rare, but strong, and reflected them with a large round shield with a umbon, then on the miniatures from this manuscript all the main blows are shown as stabbing, but the shield is a small round buckler. That is, they were fencing with swords already at the end of the XNUMXth century, and with the advent of armor, it became absolutely necessary to inflict an injection in places covered not with plates, but only with chain mail, or with a point between them.


Sword duel. Miniature from the "Fechtbuch of the Tower" - the earliest known fencing textbook. Tower of London Manuscript I.33. Royal Armory


Exactly the same duel from the Manes Code. Knight Ditmar fights with swords with his opponent and… cuts his helmet with one blow! Codex Manes, ca. 1305–1315 Heidelberg University Library, Baden-Württemberg

European medieval swords were by no means always straight. Quite popular were ... "crooked swords." Somewhere around the middle of the XNUMXth century, the so-called felchens or falchions appeared, which had a point expanding towards the point, and at the same time often a curved blade. Due to this, having a center of gravity shifted forward, they had a very powerful cutting or chopping effect. Judging by the miniatures, they were used quite widely, but for some reason very few of them have survived to this day.

Another type of European "crooked sword" was Messers - blades that are the same across the entire width and with one-sided sharpening. For falchions and messers, the Elmslie typology has been developed - an analogue of the Oakeshott typology for swords with straight blades. The weight of the falchions, despite the part of the blade expanding like a machete, was about the same as that of the swords. For example, the famous "Falchion from Conyers" with a total length of 89 centimeters weighs only 1,3 kg. Moreover, they were used by both the simplest warriors and noble persons!


The warrior on the left is holding a falchion with a curved blade. Walter de Millimete. "On the nobility, wisdom and prudence of kings", 1326-1327. Christ Church, London


I did not disdain to fight them even to know. And for some reason, the knight in the hat has a saber guard! And on the ground lies another falchion and someone's messer, and the helmets from the heads of the combatants are falling! Walter de Millimete. "On the nobility, wisdom and prudence of kings", 1326-1327. Christ Church, London


Surprisingly, it was falchions that miniaturists more often than other swords put into the hands of various demonic characters, and also subjected to obvious artistic exaggerations! "Soul Apocalypse", before 1275 or after 1250. Bodleian Library, Oxford University


Fragment of a miniature from the manuscript "Good Civilians", Italy, 1373. Trivulziliana Library, Milan. There is a crossbow, and a bow, and a combat scythe, and even two basilard daggers ...


And here at once both Felchen, and Messer and ... shestoper - a mace with a warhead of six flat plates. By the way, here you can even see the chain, if you look closely, going to the hilt of the knight's sword in a red surcoat, depicted in the very center! Walter de Milemete: "On the Nobility, Wisdom and Prudence of Kings", 1326-1327 Christ Church, London

And, of course, both knights and foot soldiers used axes (with a moon-shaped blade and the letter “G” placed on the left side), as well as spiked clubs, called morgenstern. Very rare types of chopping weapons were also used, such as, for example, fauxhard (faux from the French “braid”). Indeed, the foshard most of all resembles a huge two-handed knife, although it was most likely not so easy to use it.

Images of such clubs in miniatures are rare. Axes more often, but also not always and not of all types. Therefore, it makes sense to show how it looked in the hands of a person, using for this a frame from the movie "Secrets of the Burgundy Court". There, both a mace with a cylindrical studded pommel and a battle ax with a T-shaped ax handle are very well shown.


Mace. The choice of the Comte de Senac, a "bad man" played by the exceptionally charismatic Guy Delorme. Frame from the film "Secrets of the Burgundy Court"


The ax was chosen by both main characters: both the positive Chevalier de Neuville (Jean Mare), and the same treacherous Comte de Senac. Frame from the film "Secrets of the Burgundy Court"


"Triple flail" - the choice of the Chevalier de Neuville. So in the movie this weapon is called and, it should be noted, in order to own it, a skill was required, and in this way it was possible to get hurt yourself. But with his help, the enemy could be quite easily disarmed, which Neuville did during the duel of God's judgment ...


And here is complete naturalism, evidence that the illustrator of this manuscript was no stranger to military affairs: a knight with a two-handed foshard cuts the enemy into pieces, despite the chain mail, so much so that his intestines crawled out! Miniature from the Maciejowski Bible, 1240–1250. Pierpont Morgan Library and Museum, New York

Interestingly, the bow, for all its popularity and lethality, was not considered a knight's weapon. He was willingly used for hunting, even by women, but in battle it was simply indecent to shoot a fellow knight from a horse. Defeat him, knock him off his horse, take him prisoner, and then get a ransom from him - that was a worthy deed! And only commoners could shoot at enemies with a bow, and even more so with a crossbow, which was forbidden more than once by the popes of Rome.

Interestingly, the oldest bow was discovered in Spain on the shores of Lake Banyolas, in the vicinity of Barcelona. The age of the find, according to scientists, is 7,5 thousand years and is currently the oldest bow found. Moreover, it is quite well preserved, and it is clear that its inner side is flat, and the outer one is convex, and the length is 108 centimeters. It is made of very poisonous, but at the same time very useful for people, yew berry, which served as the material for most of the bows of Europe in the Neolithic and ... Middle Ages! Interestingly, a similar bow was also found next to the mummy of the ancient man Ötzi in the Alps.

In order to shoot accurately from a bow, it was necessary to constantly train, and in order not to lose the shape of the arrow, in the same England, the feudal lords from time to time arranged competitions for shooters from free peasants and celebrated the most accurate. This allowed the British to always have detachments of skilled shooters on hand, but the French had to hire detachments of Genoese crossbowmen for money.

By the way, the bows of the English archers themselves were very large, sometimes in human height and more. Arrows were fired at the advancing French cavalry on command, in volleys, at a certain angle and fell on the riders from above, hitting primarily their horses. Wounded horses fell, crushing riders, or lay down, unable to run further. Well, the archers themselves, taking advantage of the confusion, ran out from under the protection of stakes hammered into the ground (and they fought that way!) And ... with hammers with lead knobs they broke the heads of the knights!


"History of Battles" or "The Book and True History of the Good King Alexander" (meaning, of course, Alexander the Great), 1400-1425. Paris. British Library, London

As for the crossbow, that is, a bow fixed on a stock with a trigger mechanism, it has also been known in Europe since Roman times, and began to spread from the XNUMXth century. This weapon was originally suitable only for hunting, since it was weaker than a bow. And it was weaker because the bow itself was short for convenience, and its bowstring was pulled by hand.


The illustrious knight of France, Bertrand du Guesclin (this is evidenced by his coat of arms on the jupon), offers the enemy fortress to surrender. Behind him are archers, ready to shoot, and crossbowmen defend the city. "The Song of Bertrand du Guesclin", 1380-1392 Paris. British Library, London

The popularity was facilitated by the fact that learning to shoot a crossbow was much easier and required less time compared to mastering the art of archery. In order to ease the tension, and at the same time make the crossbow lek stronger, they came up with the idea of ​​​​stretching its bowstring with the help of belt hooks, first one, and then two.

The crossbowman inserted his foot into the stirrup at the end of the crossbow chute, leaned over, hooked the bowstring with a hook (or hooks), after which he unbent, and the bowstring was pulled with these hooks. Such a system has spread in Europe since the XIII century, and it was a serious step forward.

Crossbows became even more powerful during the years of the Hundred Years War, when a device called the "English gate" appeared. He had a chain hoist system, two handles and was worn on the butt. And in Germany, from the end of the XNUMXth century, they began to supply the crossbow with a rack and pinion mechanism called the kranekin. This type of tensioner was more convenient and stronger than the block one, and it made it possible to draw the bows of even the most powerful crossbows.


Genoese crossbowmen against English archers. The Battle of Crécy, 1346. Miniature from the Chronicles of Jean Froissart (1337–1410), illustrated copies commissioned by the Flemish nobleman Louis de Gruutuse in the 1470s. National Library of France, Paris


Archers and crossbowmen, using crossbows with an "English gate" (one such gate is on the ground), are shelling the city, supporting their comrades going on the assault. The defenders of the city throw furniture, stones and even pottery on the heads of the latter. The Siege of Aubenton, 1340 Miniature of Jean Froissart's (1337–1410) Chronicles, illustrated copies commissioned by the Flemish nobleman Louis de Gruutuse in the 1470s. National Library of France, Paris

On the basis of a miniature from the manuscript of Walter de Milimet "On the Nobility, Wisdom and Prudence of Kings", presented to the King of England Edward III upon his accession to the English throne, it can be concluded that gunpowder guns were already used in England in 1327, although they were very primitive. But they were improved and in the XNUMXth century they were already exploited very widely ...


In this illustration, the shooter is holding a red-hot rod in one hand and a brazier with coals in the other. Why is a non-burning wick used? War Book, 1437 National Library of Austria, Vienna

And the thing is that the gunpowder of the XV century was a very fine powder, sticking together into clods. There was no air for combustion in it, so it was not possible to set fire to it in the barrels of guns, where it merged into one dense mass. I had to use a hot rod. From him, the saltpeter, which was part of the gunpowder, began to melt, released oxygen and the gunpowder flared up! Therefore, it was impossible to do without a brazier for a long time!

Surprisingly, the invention of gunpowder artillery did not immediately abolish the use of trebuchet-type throwing machines, which were used until the end of the XNUMXth century!


Trebuchet. Miniature of the manuscript "Book of War" 1496 Heidelberg University Library
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  1. Catfish
    Catfish 30 November 2022 06: 52
    +6
    Good morning friends! smile

    In this illustration, the archer is holding a red-hot rod in one hand and a brazier with coals in the other.


    Arab Modfa, it was the Arabs who invented this gun - XII - XIII century.


    And Europeans have already borrowed from them.


    In both drawings there is a red-hot rod, but I did not find a drawing with a brazier.

    Vyacheslav, thanks for the beautiful article good , but it seemed to me that there was some confusion in the captions for two photographs from the film "Secrets of the Burgundy Court":
    Second photo
    The ax was chosen by both main characters: both the positive Chevalier de Neuville (Jean Mare), and the same treacherous Comte de Senac. Frame from the film "Secrets of the Burgundy Court"

    Third photo
    "Triple flail" - the choice of the Chevalier de Neuville. So in the movie this weapon is called and, it should be noted, in order to own it, a skill was required, and in this way it was possible to get hurt yourself.

    So what weapon did the "positive Chevalier de Neuville" use? smile
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 30 November 2022 07: 33
      +7
      Axe, Triple Flail, Two-Handed Sword!
      His opponent has:
      Axe, Mace, Two-handed sword.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 30 November 2022 07: 43
        +8
        Jean Marais, of course, won? wink

        I see Rochefort is also sitting in the background. laughing

        I saw this movie, but I don't remember at all.
        1. kalibr
          30 November 2022 07: 50
          +6
          Quote: Sea Cat
          and Rochefort joined in.

          This is precisely the bad Comte de Senac!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 30 November 2022 08: 38
            +10
            Guy Delorme (fr. Guy Delorme; May 23, 1929, Marie-sur-Marne [fr] - December 26, 2005, Brie-sur-Marne) is a French actor and stuntman, who became famous for playing mostly negative roles.
            That's when I noticed that he constantly plays charming scoundrels. smile
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 30 November 2022 09: 10
          +7
          Good morning, Constantine!
          We'll have to include this film in the "deferred film library."
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 1 December 2022 10: 51
            +2
            Hello Sergey!
            I just came to my senses a little, my sense of self went off scale. And the film, in my opinion, is rather mediocre, nothing remained in my memory, although I watched it much later than The Three Musketeers, I just remembered that the Duke of Burgundy was surprisingly similar to one of my friends - just a copy. I advised him to watch the film just to "look at himself from the outside." smile
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 1 December 2022 19: 00
              +1
              Hi Konstantin! How is health doing today?
              1. The comment was deleted.
        3. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 30 November 2022 12: 48
          +4
          In addition, it was called "Secrets of the Burgundian Court" in our box office, and the original name was "The Miracle of the Wolves".
          1. Ulan.1812
            Ulan.1812 30 November 2022 20: 19
            +2
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            In addition, it was called "Secrets of the Burgundian Court" in our box office, and the original name was "The Miracle of the Wolves".

            However, under the title "Miracle of the Wolves" I saw this film on TV.
    2. tlauicol
      tlauicol 30 November 2022 08: 02
      +6
      Sword ax mace. Sword ax flail.
      Emnip
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 30 November 2022 08: 12
        +6
        The swords were at the end of the duel!
        When the combatants have already fallen off their horses.
  2. Suomynona
    Suomynona 30 November 2022 08: 18
    +5
    I would not call the article a checkpoint, I discovered a lot of new things for myself
    1. kalibr
      30 November 2022 08: 47
      +3
      Quote: Suomynona
      discovered a lot of new

      I am glad!
      1. Ulan.1812
        Ulan.1812 30 November 2022 20: 25
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: Suomynona
        discovered a lot of new

        I am glad!

        I also discovered something new. Once I had a dispute about the weapons of the Horde. It was about a curved sword, which was used by many of the Horde.
        My opponent argued that there are no swords with a curved blade and one-sided sharpening. What is a saber.
        I saw confirmation from you that I was right that swords with one-sided sharpening and a curved blade existed.
        I also thought that the falchion is not a sword, but an independent species.
        Thank you.
  3. icelord
    icelord 30 November 2022 09: 26
    +5
    Good article! Just about my mania.
    1. kalibr
      30 November 2022 09: 28
      +5
      Quote: Icelord
      Just about my mania

      The cycle will continue. There will be more articles of the same format.
      1. icelord
        icelord 30 November 2022 09: 56
        +3
        Let's look forward to European edged weapons, this is my obsession, I'm not afraid of this word laughing . Thank you in advance hi
        1. kalibr
          30 November 2022 11: 14
          +5
          So so. There was a problem. It didn't exist before. I could write about any edged weapons from museums, any. And now museum after museum refuses permission to use their photos. And if they do not refuse, then ... yesterday, the famous Ateneum museum asked for $ 100 for one photo. One! It's too much. So let's wait a bit with melee weapons for now.
          1. icelord
            icelord 30 November 2022 11: 23
            +2
            It's a pity, but it will probably settle down, hope dies last
            1. kalibr
              30 November 2022 11: 29
              +2
              Quote: Icelord
              It's a pity, but it will probably settle down, hope dies last

              There is already no hope for a number of museums. But ... yes, you are right, you can find a hole or a gap in any fence. But the worst thing is that I have to write another book, and ... I'm being bullied. But on the other hand, Igor, has just submitted a book to the publishing house for work: The Brilliant Middle Ages. Knights and castles. A large illustrated atlas. "It has 10 chapters, p. 64. And about 20 illustrations per chapter. And that's all - miniatures and a number of my photos from castles. Will it come out when? Well ... I don’t know. But the contract was signed and the book has gone to work.The queue for two new books...
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 30 November 2022 12: 28
              +1
              It won't settle down, Igor, not in our lifetime. Meanwhile, you could help the author.
              1. icelord
                icelord 30 November 2022 12: 29
                +2
                Yes? In principle, I do not mind helping, but how?
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 30 November 2022 12: 56
                  +3
                  Yes, it's very simple! Offer Shpakovsky help in finding illustrations. It's much easier for you today than it is for him.
                  1. icelord
                    icelord 30 November 2022 13: 04
                    +2
                    I'll think about how it can be done in practice, of course
  4. icelord
    icelord 30 November 2022 09: 33
    +4
    But farshad is in what language? It’s just that in Russian it’s a siege knife, in German it’s a falshard, but I haven’t heard of a forshad. And yet this is not quite a knightly weapon, it was rarely used in the field, and today I learned from a horse for the first time that this was possible. Well, this is practically a halberd, more glaives, up to 3 meters long. And isn't the club of the "bad man" too big? She offhand weighs 5-7 kilos
    1. kalibr
      30 November 2022 11: 15
      +4
      Quote: Icelord
      farshad what language is this?

      Isn't there a reference to a word in French?
      1. icelord
        icelord 30 November 2022 11: 19
        +4
        There is, but it seems to be different, although I am very at odds with French, so Frenchies were called that, thanks
  5. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 09: 36
    +7
    Again, judging by the illustrations from manuscript I.33, known as "Fechtbuch of the Tower", written around 1300, or between 1270 and 1340, fencing already existed then, and it was taught like any other skill.

    I wanted no one to say a word about fencing. Until the XNUMXth century this occupation for a nobleman was considered at least unworthy. At the tournament, it is honorable, being in heavy armor, to inflict and receive a certain (often agreed in advance) number of blows, in a real battle there is no time for fencing - there nails with all their might, where they have to with a dagger, mace, falchion, ax (for now, let the sword hang on belt, an expensive thing, it must be protected, and not broken on enemy helmets), there is no time for exquisite poses and graceful evolutions of weapons. So what is pampering like fencing - a purely urban product, alien to the healthy and natural rural life of a normal feudal lord.
    In short, this is not a chivalrous thing - to jump like a goat and poke each other with pieces of iron. Let those who do not have normal armor do this.
    The ancestors were practical to the point of disgrace and hardly anyone dreamed of hitting the tip of the sword in the gap between the plates of the enemy’s armor in a real battle, when it was possible to simply hit him on the head with something heavy, such as an ax, or sharp and fast, such as a sting or chase .
    1. icelord
      icelord 30 November 2022 09: 49
      +4
      If you read the fencing books of the end of the Middle Ages, and there are simply no earlier ones, then they still fenced, just not in the way we imagine it now. It's more like fighting with a weapon in your hands, where the main thing is to drop it, and then cut it without fuss
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 10: 11
        +4
        Let's start with the fact that fencing books began to appear from the XNUMXth century. and they describe, basically, precisely the methods of handling weapons - strikes, parries (including parrying with a blade), counterattacks. Wrestling techniques were also described, but on an equal basis with the others, and not at all exclusively.
        If you read fechtbooks and look at the pictures that they contain, then we will practically not see figures in combat protective weapons there, that is, we will not see knights. Fechtbooks were not written for them.
        1. icelord
          icelord 30 November 2022 10: 56
          +3
          I didn’t read the thirteenth fechtbooks, maybe they didn’t translate and publish it, maybe it’s just unlucky, but I’ve seen several centuries of 15, and there are a lot of knights in armor, they’re teeming
        2. icelord
          icelord 30 November 2022 11: 07
          +3
          There are kanesh and such tricks
          but there are plenty of others
        3. icelord
          icelord 30 November 2022 11: 10
          +2




          For example, there are many. Quite a knight for me
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 11: 49
            +4
            On the contrary, the knights did not come across to me. Now I looked - indeed there are a lot. True, it is not always possible to identify which book the picture is from. Now hemaists publish various fechtbooks, but where they get pictures from is not always written.
            Formulate the theses that you defend and we will continue, if you like.
            1. icelord
              icelord 30 November 2022 12: 03
              +4
              Yes, in principle, I think that all these fencing books were written specifically for the nobles, well, in the extreme case, the rich townspeople, others did not need them, could not afford and were simply useless due to illiteracy and lack of weapons. And fencing, even if armored from unarmored and differs greatly, was already in ancient Rome, at least there are sources for this. But it's really not that important. But what I’m extremely interested in is the fencing of the 13th century, could you give some information on such inkabula, at least the name, otherwise I put all my friends on the ears, no one knows, but they are very interested, we will be very grateful to you , and Dasha, the champion of the us west in istfekh in buhurt, said that she would kiss you even on occasion smile
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 30 November 2022 12: 45
                +4
                The earliest fechtbuch dates back to about 1300. This is the so-called Walpurgis Book, or Vechtbuch from the Tower, or Manuscript I.33.
                1. icelord
                  icelord 30 November 2022 13: 06
                  +3
                  And this one, I know, but it’s like the 14th century, the dating is vague there, but most scientists date it to the first half of the 14th century, so 1330. Do you know more? But thanks anyway
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 30 November 2022 13: 20
                    +3
                    There are simply no earlier ones. According to the bibliography of fechtbuchs, I propose to refer here:
                    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HBh-oLcQsak&list=PL9ybxsKzafo2W-_4_SobEFd7mbFi_7-Jz&index=1
                    1. icelord
                      icelord 30 November 2022 15: 01
                      +3
                      Yep, I'll take a look, thanks. Well, what kind of nonsense, the message is too short, but you need to pour verbal water wassat
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 15: 11
                        +3
                        This section of the resource is still quite cultural. In "news" it looks something like this: my message is too short because I'm not very smart.
              2. kalibr
                30 November 2022 12: 48
                +6
                Quote: Icelord
                champion

                Champions haven't kissed me yet! Therefore, we must try to write an interesting article on the topic of fencing books and medieval fencing.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 30 November 2022 13: 02
                  +3
                  I can provide original photographs from the English reissue of Talhoffer.
                  1. kalibr
                    30 November 2022 13: 22
                    +2
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    English reprint of Talhoffer.

                    Dear Anton! Thank you! We'll have to see... But... why don't you make your own article about this publication and its contents? Medieval currency is a currency, but why not try your hand at the bibliographic genre?
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 30 November 2022 13: 31
                      +3
                      why don't you make your own article about this publication and its contents?
                      I will think about it.
                      1. kalibr
                        30 November 2022 16: 36
                        +2
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        I will think about it.

                        - You, mustaches, in love and cards in hand!
                        From now on, I'll take care of you!
                        - I'm really glad to meet ours.
                        - And I, cornet, hussar hussar brother!
              3. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 13: 08
                +4
                At one time, links to these books were given to me by a person who was recently banned, alas, and since that conversation took place a very long time ago, when we both performed under other names, it will be very difficult, if not impossible, to find it now. I remember that there were references to some European resources and that the XNUMXth century was definitely there.
                Of course, you know about the "Fechtbook from the Tower" mentioned in the article, it is conditionally attributed to the XNUMXth century.
                As for who fencing books were written for, the nobles began to pay attention to fencing not earlier than the XNUMXth century, before that it was the lot of the urban population. The skills of a swordsman are useless in a war or a tournament, but they can be useful in protecting yourself from an attack by robbers or during some kind of turmoil.
                1. icelord
                  icelord 30 November 2022 15: 28
                  +5
                  Well, as a person who, until the age of 45, was engaged in practice in the field of history, until the Lucerne hammer flew into the bascinet and almost sent me to a better world. I do not believe that people who chose such a dangerous job for themselves neglected the theory of fencing, especially since there are books where it is written down. There is even a description of strength training. Why, there is even a description of the training of Roman legionnaires. But let's not argue for me, these fencing books are proof of the existence of fencing among knights for you. Moreover, even if they were not, I would still think that it was. And then the Chinese had it, the Japanese had it, and we mean round-eyed barbarians? You think differently, well, we will remain in our opinion hi
        4. kalibr
          30 November 2022 11: 17
          +5
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          that is, we will not see the knights

          I will specially find one where knights in armor fight.
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 30 November 2022 10: 21
      +4
      (Let the sword hang on your belt for now, it's an expensive thing, you need to take care of it, and not break it on enemy helmets)

      Where is this from anyway? And for what period is it formulated?
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 11: 22
        +4
        Quote: Engineer
        for what period

        Rather, for the late Middle Ages. And here's where... smile
        Even among the illustrations for this article there is a picture where du Guesclin holds an ax in his hands, and a sword hangs on his belt. The knight who cuts the enemy with a fauchard also, it seems to me, has a sword on his belt.
        From what I can recall offhand from sources - Richard III fought with an ax, John the Good at Poitiers too. When describing tournaments, information about the use of axes, axes or clubs is also more common, if the description is given by contemporaries. Swords - only in chivalric novels.
        In the early Middle Ages, the sword was effective, but rare due to the high cost and difficulty of manufacturing - axes and clubs still dominated the battlefield.
        In the High Middle Ages, until the end of the XIII century. swords, of course, were widely used (by those who could afford it), since they were still quite effective and were no longer so rare. This is probably the heyday of the sword as a weapon.
        However, already in the XIV century. less and less is said about swords, and with the advent of the era of white armor, the mention of the use of the sword in battle or in the tournament somehow disappears.
        In any case, that's the impression I got.
        There is no doubt that every knight had a sword, but whether it was used in real business is a question. It seems to me that if used, then, rather, as a weapon of last chance, when all other means of struggle for one reason or another are inaccessible. That is, if it came to the sword, it means that things are really bad.
        1. mihaylov
          mihaylov 30 November 2022 11: 31
          +6
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          There is no doubt that every knight had a sword, but whether it was used in real business is a question

          Good afternoon Mikhail,
          I recall the description of the episode when, in the thick of the battle, one noble knight, seeing how, in the heat of battle, another noble knight from the enemy army, let go of the reins of his horse, decided on a rather desperate act: he rode up to the enemy, grabbed the reins and began to pull the horse with the rider to his camp. The enemy, drawing his sword, began to “thrash” him on the back, but since the knight was in good armor, he could not cause him any harm, and our hero safely rode with him to his camp, where he admitted his defeat and surrendered.
          Unfortunately, where did I forget the names from. hi
          1. icelord
            icelord 30 November 2022 11: 52
            +4
            Well, military men of all ages love such stories drinks . Not so useless sword, in a modern buhurt it’s quite enough to bring down people, and now the protection is perhaps better, in an exact copy of medieval armor without protective shields hidden under it, you most likely will not be allowed to fight, and the sword is not sharpened and stabbed it is forbidden
            1. mihaylov
              mihaylov 30 November 2022 11: 59
              +4
              Quote: Icelord
              Well, military men of all ages love such stories

              This is understandable, this is a narrative. hi
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 11: 53
            +4
            Greetings, Sergey.
            I also remember reading about this somewhere, and even here at VO this case was already remembered. Isn't it described by Froissart? The case very clearly illustrates the degree of effectiveness of the sword on plate armor. smile
            1. mihaylov
              mihaylov 30 November 2022 12: 02
              +4
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              Isn't it described by Froissart?

              I don’t remember right away where I read it, in the evening I’ll look at one book at home, if I write from there.
              In general, this seems to be a fairly well-known episode, maybe someone will remember where? hi
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 30 November 2022 14: 13
                +3
                Froissart, volume one, chapter 61 - events at Pont-a-Tressin, the capture of Charles de Montmorency
                1. mihaylov
                  mihaylov 30 November 2022 14: 21
                  +4
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Capture of Charles de Montmorency

                  That's right, it was Montmorency, like the dog from "Three Men in a Boat, Not Counting the Dog" laughing
                  Thank you! hi
        2. Engineer
          Engineer 30 November 2022 12: 23
          +4
          That is, you simply ignored the picture from the article with the felling on the half-and-half.
          And here are some more miniatures of the 15th century from the Chronicles of Froissart







          As you can see, the sword is a full-fledged participant in the clashes between men - et - armz in the view of artists of the 15th century.
          1. icelord
            icelord 30 November 2022 12: 33
            +2
            Of course, the sword was used, as the ancestors already wrote here, it was quite practical, and when it became not very needed, the sword turned into a much more comfortable sword to carry. But in the history of the late Middle Ages, the opposite process is observed, the sword becomes longer and heavier
    3. Baker
      Baker 30 November 2022 11: 00
      +4
      I wanted no one to say a word about fencing. Until the XNUMXth century this occupation for a nobleman was considered at least unworthy.

      Someone Johannes Liechtenauer, Duarte I de Portugal and a number of comrades categorically disagree with you.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 13: 32
        +3
        Liechtenauer? How does he disagree with my thesis?
        Nothing is known about his origin, most likely not noble. His students were also clearly not aristocrats. Some of them - either Liechtenauer, or Talhoffer at one time labored at the court of the local duke, and this, in my opinion, is the only thing that can indirectly testify to at least some interest of the nobles in fencing. But it seems to me, nevertheless, that this is not enough.
        Dear Baker, please tell me, maybe you have links to the most ancient fencing books lying around somewhere? smile
        1. Baker
          Baker 30 November 2022 13: 57
          +2
          Liechtenauer? How does he disagree with my thesis?

          He is surprised. Your comments on this site demonstrate, among other things, the presence of logic. And then she refused you completely.
          What we have. We have fencing books, the oldest of which is the beginning of the XNUMXth century. Perhaps there were more ancient ones, but they are not known to us, so we will operate with these time frames.
          In those distant and glorious times, the creation of a book was technically difficult and very costly financially. And no Liechtenauer will create a fencing book simply because he has something itchy there and in the hope that local peasants will come to see pictures at their leisure, for which he paid a decent fee to the then "porthole". Usually such books were created either by order of the "nobles" or generally written under their dictation. And not at all for their servants in the backyard to practice the art of owning cold weapons.
          There are some fencing books in my library, and there are links somewhere, you have to look. I will find. I will write in private.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 17: 11
            +3
            Fechtbuks are a product of city life and they were needed not by feudal nobles, but by city residents to protect themselves from attacks by a criminal element or during pogroms and other unrest. The customers of the first fencing books, as far as I understand, were wealthy citizens who had enough money. On the one hand, there is something to lose, on the other hand, there is something to pay for a book or for lessons. That is why the first fencing books are dedicated specifically to unarmored fencing. In my opinion, everything is logical.
            In addition, it is unlikely that the feudal lords - professional military men - needed books also because they themselves comprehended military science from an early age, and they always had enough teachers among their own servants.
            There is another argument in favor of the lack of interest of the feudal lords in the publication of such books, and indeed in the organization of training someone in the military craft - they in every possible way guarded their monopoly on violence, and the book can fall into any hands and, being studied by the "wrong" people, deliver a lot of problems in resolving controversial issues in the future.
            However, it was on the fencing books that they apparently looked through their fingers, because they did not see any particular danger in them.
            1. Baker
              Baker 30 November 2022 18: 40
              +1
              Fechtbuks are a product of city life and they were needed not by feudal nobles, but by city residents to protect themselves from attacks by a criminal element or during pogroms and other unrest.

              I directly imagined how a townsman comes to Sigmund Schining ain Ringek, who lives at the court of the Duke of Bavaria Albert I, and asks him to write a fechtbook "to protect against the attacks of a criminal element." And he gives him one of three chapters. In the first - the technique of combat with a long sword, in the second - the technique of combat in full armor, in the third - the technique of combat in armor on a horse. Just everything that a medieval city dweller needs to fight off street robbers and rioters. Especially considering that the medieval townspeople owned swords, armor and war horses.
              Nevertheless, I should read something on this issue, at least Price, if you speak English.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 30 November 2022 19: 07
                +1
                Suddenly it became interesting, what fees did the compilers of fechtbuchs receive?
                1. Baker
                  Baker 30 November 2022 19: 16
                  +2
                  Suddenly it became interesting, what fees did the compilers of fechtbuchs receive?

                  I think that the answer to this question will be difficult to find, since in each case this is a unique thing. Fechtbooks did not stand on the stream, like Shpakovsky's articles.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 30 November 2022 19: 30
                    +1
                    It’s a pity, of course, although a general idea of ​​​​the fees of writers of the high Middle Ages can be drawn from the earnings of Christina of Pisa.
                    1. Baker
                      Baker 30 November 2022 19: 42
                      +3
                      There are doubts about Christina of Pisa. Almost all medieval Fechtbuch are German. Of the French, one thing is known - Le jeu de la hache, about 1400, describes the technique of fighting with an axe. There are two more, from the middle of the XNUMXth century, but these are German translations.
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 19: 52
                        +2
                        1. Regarding the German origin of the vast majority of fechtbuchs, I know. By the way, I wonder why?
                        2. What doubts about Christina?
                      2. Baker
                        Baker 30 November 2022 20: 01
                        +3
                        By the way, I wonder why?

                        The Germans were the first to systematize the fencing techniques of that time.
                        - Kunst des Fechtens. And the Italian school appeared only in the XNUMXth century.
                        And doubts - fees in the Holy Roman Empire and France could differ.
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 20: 10
                        +2
                        And doubts - fees in the Holy Roman Empire and France could differ.
                        "How much did a chicken cost in Paris?" (FROM)
            2. icelord
              icelord 30 November 2022 18: 49
              +2
              There is a lot of logic in this, I fully admit that it was so, fencing books for the townspeople, but it was fencing, it didn’t matter if you learned from a book or from teachers. Actually, this is what I meant, it seems right to me myself, I doubt that a normal son of a rural knight would stare at a book, and that his father would suddenly decide to spend a considerable amount on something that he and his squad could show ... .this is even if he is generally literate, not a monk tea
    4. kalibr
      30 November 2022 11: 16
      +3
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Ancestors were practical to disgrace

      Right. But if there was a book, then there were those who followed it.
  6. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 10: 46
    +2
    battle ax with a T-shaped ax handle.

    smile
    With a t-blade, of course. smile
    By the way, Chevalier Robert de Neuville is a strange name for a French nobleman of the late XNUMXth century. Where the author of the novel, on which the film was made (did not read it), took such a name for his protagonist, I can’t even imagine. smile
    It was during this period that the de Neuvilles, or as we are more accustomed to it, the Nevilles were in full swing in England, where the Wars of the Roses were going on.
    I don't know any other de Neuvilles or Nevilles.
    1. kalibr
      30 November 2022 11: 19
      +3
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      author of the novel

      Doesn't that say it all?
      1. Baker
        Baker 30 November 2022 13: 22
        +4
        By the way, Chevalier Robert de Neuville is a strange name for a French nobleman of the late XNUMXth century.

        Doesn't that say it all?

        A strange answer for a historian. First, Neuvile is a Walloon name. In English - Neufvilles. In Wallonia, which in the Middle Ages was part of Burgundy, there is still the town of Neuvile.
        Secondly, Robert dit de Neuville d'Occoches is a real character, a knight, years of life 1400-1470. Neuville is from his mother, Johanna Neufville.
        1. kalibr
          30 November 2022 13: 29
          +2
          Quote from Baker
          Strange answer for a historian.

          I'm just a little familiar with those who write historical novels and the "kitchen" of this business.
    2. icelord
      icelord 30 November 2022 11: 36
      +3
      By the way, this de Neuville may well be an Englishman, or someone from a younger branch, it is necessary to dig armorials, and so there is a cycle of knights across states, oh what was feudalism, far from national ideas
    3. Fat
      Fat 30 November 2022 12: 54
      +4
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      With a t-blade, of course.

      Criminologists call this part of the ax - "canvas", sometimes they call it "the striker". And in English - yes, indeed "blade" (blade) recourse
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 13: 34
        +2
        "Canvas" has not heard, except perhaps in relation to the saw. "Striker" - only in relation to the hammer. And the ax, it seems, has only a butt, an eye and a blade. smile
        1. Fat
          Fat 30 November 2022 15: 12
          +5
          About axes in a little more detail (I will make a reservation that these are not battle axes) smile

          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 17: 15
            +2
            In general, both seem to be right. Although, the "t-shaped canvas" will probably still be more accurate. smile
    4. Baker
      Baker 30 November 2022 13: 25
      +2
      I don't know any other de Neuvilles or Nevilles.

      You need to work on yourself, otherwise ignorance somehow does not suit you.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 30 November 2022 13: 51
        +5
        Ignorance does not suit anyone, however, as does snobbery. wink
        Where did you find information about such a character as Robert dit de Neuville d'Occoches? Became interesting.
        1. Baker
          Baker 30 November 2022 19: 31
          +6
          Where did you find the information

          https://gw.geneanet.org/lard
  7. Baker
    Baker 30 November 2022 11: 28
    +4
    Very rare types of chopping weapons were also used, such as, for example, fauxhard (faux from the French “braid”). Indeed, the foshard most of all resembles a huge two-handed knife, although it was most likely not so easy to use it.

    Images of such clubs in miniatures are rare.


    Chronicles of France. 1487 (Grandes Chroniques de France Calais 1487).
  8. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 30 November 2022 13: 12
    +3
    a knight with a two-handed foshard cuts the enemy into pieces,

    And yet, I was right, Vyacheslav Olegovich. This is a gross-messer, not a fauchard.
    Thank you!
    1. kalibr
      30 November 2022 13: 24
      +4
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      This is a gross-messer, not a fauchard.

      Anton! Turned over everything that is possible both with us and with "them". You can see how long the material did not appear precisely because of this picture. And there is only one conclusion - no one knows for sure. The one who called it first, that's true! And somewhere it will be foshard, and somewhere gross messer. And vice versa.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 13: 46
        +2
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, I also "shoveled" a lot of all kinds of information after your question, from khopesh to two-handed mahaira. Simply, when attributing this device, he immediately dismissed the polearm, relying only on the blade.
      2. Baker
        Baker 30 November 2022 19: 08
        +3
        The one who called it first, that's true! And somewhere it will be foshard, and somewhere gross messer. And vice versa.

        Yes, a purely scientific approach.
        Fauchard is a pole weapon! Polearm!

        And in the illustration, the weapon is clearly bladed - namely the grosse messer.
        1. kalibr
          30 November 2022 20: 50
          0
          Quote from Baker
          And in the illustration, the weapon is clearly bladed - namely the grosse messer.

          In my opinion, unless I'm blind, it doesn't look like the miniature at all. That's perfect. Put them side by side and what happens?
          1. Baker
            Baker 30 November 2022 21: 44
            +1
            Here I put it.

            So what? Where is the ancient? Broke?
            1. kalibr
              1 December 2022 08: 20
              +1
              Quote from Baker
              So what? Where is the ancient? Broke?
              So what? Where is the crosshair? Fell off? The shapes of the blade are completely different. Anyone will tell you that it doesn’t look like it at all.
              1. Baker
                Baker 1 December 2022 08: 37
                +1
                As a child, you can see the book about Thomas was a desktop.
                1. kalibr
                  1 December 2022 12: 06
                  0
                  Quote from Baker
                  As a child, you can see the book about Thomas was a desktop.

                  Do you need to see an ophthalmologist...
                  1. Baker
                    Baker 1 December 2022 12: 08
                    +1
                    In one lane
                    They stood at home.
                    In one of the houses
                    There lived a stubborn Thomas.

                    Neither at home nor at school,
                    Nowhere, nobody -
                    Did not believe
                    Stubborn Thomas
                    Nothing.
                    1. kalibr
                      1 December 2022 12: 47
                      0
                      Quote from Baker
                      Nothing.

                      Are you talking about yourself or what? They tell you IT DOES NOT LOOK LIKE IT, NEITHER A PROFILE, NOR A HANDLET, NOR A CROSSBOW. And I'm not the only one who sees this. And you are all yours. Also write to Igor about Foma. He didn't see the resemblance either. Mikhailov did not see. And many more... And they are all stupid, stubborn and blind?
                      1. Baker
                        Baker 1 December 2022 13: 33
                        +2
                        And you are all yours.

                        Interestingly, you position yourself everywhere as a specialist in the field of PR and other tinsel, but you yourself are easily led to a simple provocation.
                        As for me, you, as an expert, should have written something like this:
                        "Fochard is a beak-shaped pole weapon, the back opposite the longest curve is straight or concave, and the cutting edge is convex. Fauchard differs from the guisarma in the direction of the blade and point, usually protruding from behind, and from the combat scythe in size and the nature of the bends. Very old fauchars usually worn on the back are horizontal knobs or hooks pointing downwards and used to pull people by the ledges of their armor.The length of the shaft varied from 8 to 12 feet, and the blades from 1 to 2 feet. century".

                        This is from the Dictionnaire Encyclopédique Larousse (1898). And then it should be added that in some medieval illustrations, for example, in the Maciejowski Bible, the fauchard is shown with a short shaft, which caused controversy among a certain part of the experts.

                        This is also a fauchard from the Maciejowski Bible.
                        That would be the answer not of a boy, but of a husband. And you immediately into a fight ...
                      2. kalibr
                        1 December 2022 14: 34
                        0
                        Quote from Baker
                        And you immediately into a fight ...

                        Because I don’t see the point in wasting so many words on a person I don’t know. Someone else's time - someone else's money.
                      3. icelord
                        icelord 1 December 2022 16: 43
                        +2
                        Yes, it looks like the item you are looking for, but is it really a fauchard? It doesn't really fit the standard description though.
            2. icelord
              icelord 1 December 2022 12: 05
              +2
              No, it doesn’t really look like a gross messer either, rather some kind of dadao, a mysterious thing. Maybe it's a Japanese or a Chinese disguised as a knight, a ninja, so to speak laughing
            3. icelord
              icelord 6 December 2022 10: 12
              0
              If it weren't for the time difference, I would say that this is a straight rhomphea
              such a type. But a thousand years of difference ....
    2. mihaylov
      mihaylov 30 November 2022 14: 03
      +2
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      This is a gross-messer, not a fauchard.

      Good afternoon Anton,
      I would say that it is rather some kind of falchion.
      However, this image has long been disturbing the minds, and the miniaturist sarcastically kidnaps in hell. wassat
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 14: 17
        +4
        Hello, Sergey!
        So why in hell? The porthole illustrated a completely biblical story: Josus Nun presses the Philistines.
        1. mihaylov
          mihaylov 30 November 2022 14: 23
          +2
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          So why in hell?

          The person who drew this incomprehensible object has a place only in hell, and for all the remaining generations - a "smut" about "what is this"? laughing
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 30 November 2022 14: 36
            +3
            "What is it"?
            Preliminarily discussing this miniature, the only thing on which Shpakovsky and I unequivocally agreed was that the artist undoubtedly saw this wunderwafer firsthand, too well drawn.
            1. mihaylov
              mihaylov 30 November 2022 14: 46
              +2
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              that the artist undoubtedly saw this prodigy firsthand

              As well as the process of "falling apart" a person in chain mail to her in two! laughing , about which "I am tormented by vague doubts."
              And the thing may have existed, it would be nice to really find something similar in archeology or in a museum. hi
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 30 November 2022 15: 18
                +2
                It would be nice to really find something similar in archeology or in a museum.
                That is,
                please
                1. mihaylov
                  mihaylov 30 November 2022 15: 30
                  +3
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  please

                  Well, I don’t know Anton: Messer of the 16th century is much later than the 13th century: the era of landsknechts and the “classic” of chivalry? In my opinion, they are not even very similar. hi
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 30 November 2022 15: 36
                    +2
                    Sergey, I think that any single-edged European blade, a blade without a bend, can be considered an evolution of the "Sax".
  9. depressant
    depressant 30 November 2022 14: 21
    +3
    Seeing the falchion, she cried out: "Turkish scimitar!" Why I decided that, I don't know. For the ignoramus that you can't hide... But, my God! What a luxury I read, and comments - one more beautiful than the other. This is a different world, in which, having plunged, it is difficult to emerge to the real surface.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 30 November 2022 14: 41
      +4
      Seeing the falchion, she cried out: "Turkish scimitar!"
      Rather, a machete, the scimitar has sharpening on the other side of the bend.
      1. icelord
        icelord 30 November 2022 15: 46
        +3
        On the other hand, but not quite, it is rather with a double bend, the scimitar is the most mysterious thing of all x.o. what i know. It is unclear even when he appeared, why and why request
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 30 November 2022 15: 53
          +4
          It is unclear even when he appeared, why and why
          Somewhere I read such a version that the scimitar appeared as a "sword".
          1. icelord
            icelord 30 November 2022 16: 02
            +5
            Yes, there are many versions, but it is not even clear whether it was until the end of the 18th century, and whether it was used at all as a weapon on the battlefield, Balkan bashi-bazouks or Mediterranean pirates of the second half of the 19th century, not taking into account
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 30 November 2022 16: 19
              +5
              In principle, this form of blade is not new even for the Middle Ages. I think that the mahaira was the prototype of the scimitar.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 30 November 2022 17: 04
                +3
                Retrospective analysis can be used to test such hypotheses.
                The final, well-documented part of the evolution of the phenomenon is taken and from it they go back, deep into the centuries, looking for analogies. It is important here to avoid temporal and spatial gaps. If the gap is inexplicably large in time or space, then the hypothesis will have to be abandoned.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 30 November 2022 17: 59
                  +2
                  spatial breaks.
                  Attica and Iberia - a sufficiently large spatial gap?
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 30 November 2022 18: 14
                    +3
                    Let's just say, understandable, given that there were Greek colonies in Iberia
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 30 November 2022 18: 20
                      +2
                      Alas, Denis, falcata are found exclusively in the Kelyiberian burials.
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 November 2022 18: 22
                        +2
                        Maybe because in the Greek context falcata become mahairi?)
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 18: 55
                        +1
                        May be so. But the Romans, undoubtedly familiar with both, clearly defined the falcata as the "Spanish sword."
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 November 2022 19: 12
                        +2
                        clearly defined falcata as "Spanish sword".

                        Is it fake?
                        According to Bishop, gladius Hispaniensis in Livy is a slightly enlarged straight gladius.
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 19: 39
                        +2
                        There is a very big confusion in terminology, because the authentic name has not come down to us. The term "falcata" itself was coined in the 19th century, and modern researchers interpret the "Spanish sword" in all sorts of ways. The Spaniards believe that this is a falcata.
                      5. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 November 2022 19: 52
                        +2
                        The fact is that the gladius Hispaniensis (sometimes Hispanus) in Livy was in service with the Romans starting from the second Punic. It was used by both infantry and cavalry (Livy's passage about the horrendous wounds in the Macedonian War). I don’t see any reason to consider him a falcata at all. This is precisely the famous gladius of the initial stage of evolution.
                        The confusion may have arisen from the reports of Polybius. He called the swords of both the Spaniards and the swords of the Romans mahairas, which implies the use of the term mahaira in a broad sense. It's taken apart by Bishop.
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 20: 01
                        +2
                        It's taken apart by Bishop.
                        Denis, please send a link to the book. Or, if you have it in electronic form, email me: [email protected]
                      7. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 November 2022 20: 10
                        +2
                        Or, if you have it in electronic form, email me

                        Sent by mail.
                      8. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 20: 18
                        +1
                        Thank you, Denis!
                        I thought it was Osprey. You see, for some time now, I have been somewhat wary of this publication ...
                      9. The comment was deleted.
                      10. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 30 November 2022 20: 27
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The confusion may have arisen from the reports of Polybius.

                        The Greeks in general had confusion with mahaira: initially, apparently, a utility knife, then a sacrificial knife and a cleaver (although literally a kopis is a cleaver) and the sword itself and understand what was in each case, and at the end of the Hellenistic era, all the terms converge, begin to confuse mahairu, kopis, xiphos. hi
                      11. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 November 2022 20: 30
                        +2
                        they begin to confuse mahaira, kopis, xiphos.

                        I confuse them even without Hellenism laughing
                      12. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 30 November 2022 19: 30
                        +1
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        But the Romans, undoubtedly familiar with both, clearly defined the falcata as "the Spanish sword

                        Wikipedia says that falcata is a modern term, in Latin: "machaera Hispana".
                        Need to check it out of course. hi
                      13. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 19: 44
                        +1
                        All right. But still "Spanish", therefore, distinguished them from Greek?
                      14. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 30 November 2022 19: 47
                        +1
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        All right. But still "Spanish", therefore, distinguished them from Greek?

                        Perhaps a couple of years ago there was a good lecture on Mahaira on YouTube:
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sMyQSbKR6M
                      15. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 19: 55
                        +1
                        Thanks for the link Sergey! I'll definitely look!
                      16. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 30 November 2022 19: 28
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Maybe because in the Greek context, falcata become mahairi?

                        and in Indian - pattami hi
                      17. Engineer
                        Engineer 30 November 2022 19: 35
                        +4
                        pata sword is something completely different - with an integrated bracer
                      18. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 30 November 2022 19: 42
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        pata sword is something completely different - with an integrated bracer

                        Sorry, yes, that's right, I made a mistake - sucker patta hi
                      19. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 1 December 2022 17: 14
                        +2
                        Sorry, yes, that's right, I made a mistake - sucker patta

                        It’s a pity I didn’t come under the article about maces ... hi
                        Sergey - I give! drinks

                      20. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 30 November 2022 19: 46
                        +1
                        with integrated bracer
                        Like a tarch?
              2. icelord
                icelord 30 November 2022 17: 22
                +3
                To be honest, I doubt very much when there was a mahaira, and when the scimitar and between them there was nothing similar for thousands of years. Although this version also exists
              3. mihaylov
                mihaylov 30 November 2022 17: 34
                +2
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                I think that the mahaira was the prototype of the scimitar.

                It is unlikely that in the days of the Janissaries they had an idea about mahair, I bet on a banal household! drinks
            2. mihaylov
              mihaylov 30 November 2022 16: 21
              +6
              Quote: Icelord
              Yes, there are many versions, but it is not clear whether he even existed before the end of the 18th century

              The most reliable version seems to me that it was the personal weapon of the Janissaries, which, unlike the state weapon that was issued to them for the period of hostilities, they were not required to hand over and in peacetime they could well hang around Istanbul with it.
              it is not even clear whether he was before the end of the 18th century

              In its "classical" form, this is apparently the 18-19th centuries. If you look at the scimitar of Suleiman the Magnificent of the 16th century, then almost a Saxon. hi
              1. icelord
                icelord 30 November 2022 18: 14
                +2
                Still to be sure of the dating of this very scimitar of Suleiman from topkapi, or maybe Suleiman and not that one, Turkish dating is somehow very bold and not only in this case
                1. Fat
                  Fat 30 November 2022 19: 30
                  +5
                  hi Yes, it seems like a normal age is determined. Here is the sword.

                  Master - Ahmed Tekelu. Another sword-scimitar of Suleiman of the same master is in the USA at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
                  Early scimitars date from the end of the 15th to the beginning of the 16th century. They survived, perhaps because they were presented as a gift to the Sultan and were not in battle. status weapon.
    2. kalibr
      30 November 2022 16: 40
      +2
      Quote: depressant
      Lyudmila Yakovlevna

      Very soon I will immerse you in no less interesting world! Already written...
      1. depressant
        depressant 30 November 2022 17: 18
        +1
        A magical world into which people and objects are removed at the whim of the Author, and an amazing fairy tale arises...
        I'm not in shape today. Obviously the flu.
        Ah, I would live and live, but something is not living. Winter has fallen, and so what year wassat )))
  10. north 2
    north 2 30 November 2022 18: 40
    +1
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Good morning friends! smile

    In this illustration, the archer is holding a red-hot rod in one hand and a brazier with coals in the other.


    Arab Modfa, it was the Arabs who invented this gun - XII - XIII century.


    And Europeans have already borrowed from them.


    In both drawings there is a red-hot rod, but I did not find a drawing with a brazier.

    Vyacheslav, thanks for the beautiful article good , but it seemed to me that there was some confusion in the captions for two photographs from the film "Secrets of the Burgundy Court":
    Second photo
    The ax was chosen by both main characters: both the positive Chevalier de Neuville (Jean Mare), and the same treacherous Comte de Senac. Frame from the film "Secrets of the Burgundy Court"

    Third photo
    "Triple flail" - the choice of the Chevalier de Neuville. So in the movie this weapon is called and, it should be noted, in order to own it, a skill was required, and in this way it was possible to get hurt yourself.

    So what weapon did the "positive Chevalier de Neuville" use? smile

    Good evening! The Arab modfa is not a cannon, as you say. This is one of the first samples of small arms. If the first bullets of guns then differed little in caliber from the caliber of the Arab modf. then I dare to assume that the Arab modfa is one of the first small arms. But not guns at all ..
    1. icelord
      icelord 1 December 2022 12: 16
      +1
      Yes, go figure out what it is, a gun or not, as in Russia the squeaker is also a loose concept.
      PS Are you by any chance Lisasever from the Hanseatic League?