The influence of the Russo-Japanese War on the design of battleships in France

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The influence of the Russo-Japanese War on the design of battleships in France
English Royal Sovereign-class ironclad


Armored cruiser vs battleship


At the beginning of 1901, the modernization of the battleships Royal Sovereign was discussed in England, while various options for fighting with the battleships of other countries were considered. The new Japanese armored cruisers Asama did not go unnoticed either.



According to some officers, the armored cruiser Asama has every chance of defeating the battleship Royal Sovereign with the help of rapid-fire artillery. Asama, using its advantage in speed, can quickly approach the battleship at a distance of 2 yards (000 meters) and disable 1-mm guns with shells from its guns. At a distance of 829 yards (343 meters), 4-mm armor-piercing shells can penetrate the barbettes of an armadillo. It will take 000–3 minutes to disable the guns and supply shells. After that, the five remaining 658-mm guns will not pose a danger to Asama.

It was proposed to strengthen the armor of the barbets and protect the guns with only shields, also to replace the 343-mm guns with modern 305-mm guns, and replace the 152-mm guns with ten 190-mm guns.

While agreeing that part of the artillery was weakly protected, most of the officers said that the predicted victory of an armored cruiser over an ironclad was practically impossible. It was indicated that 343-mm guns would penetrate armor from a distance of 5 yards (000 meters).

For this distance, clarification is required, in the instructions of the English fleet at that time, it was indicated that the most effective distance for opening fire for main battery guns with optical sights was 3–000 yards (4–000 meters), for guns with old sights, 2 yards (744 meters). Therefore, if an armored cruiser tries to get close to the battleship at a distance of effective impact from her guns, she will receive hits from large-caliber shells, which will greatly reduce her combat capabilities and, as a result, she will have to retreat.

According to Admiral D. Fisher, the presence of armored cruisers in the squadron line will lead to their death or serious damage from the fire of large-caliber guns. The appearance of steam, which made it possible to keep any course regardless of the wind, gave rise to the belief that an advantage can be obtained by dividing the fleet into several parts, maneuvering them, and achieving a concentration of fire on one of the parts of the enemy squadron.

At that time, among the officers of the fleets of different countries, the theory of building a squadron in battle in two lines was popular. This made it possible to send ships (detachments) of the second line to a certain point in order to create an advantage in the number of guns against individual parts of the enemy squadron. It was believed that this theory had not only advantages, but also disadvantages, for more free maneuvering of ships of the second line, the distance between the detachments of the first line should be increased.

In 1899, Admiral D. Fisher was presented with arguments in favor of a single-line formation, but it took some time before he finally decided to accept it, along with the two golden rules of naval warfare:

"Use superior speed to select range, and whenever an enemy makes a turn, turn with them."

By following these rules, you will force the enemy to expose your ships to the concentrated fire of your large-caliber guns.

At the same time, he constantly reminded his officers:

“Learn from everyone – both enemies and friends, especially enemies. To study with clenched teeth, without fear that the enemies will laugh at us, at our ignorance and our backwardness.”

Large-caliber guns


Since battles start at long ranges, only large-caliber guns and heavy projectiles with a lower muzzle velocity can now be used. Large-caliber guns on ships in service have calibers of 305 mm, 274,4 mm, 240 mm and 194 mm. Nevertheless, the 194-millimeter is planned to be attributed to medium-caliber artillery.

At a meeting held in May 1905, the Naval Board divided its votes between three ironclad projects, each of which had enough supporters that the board did not find it possible to make a final decision.

One of these projects proposed a battleship with a displacement of 17 tons, armed with 000 guns of 4 mm caliber and 305 guns of 10 mm caliber, the second project recommended a battleship with a displacement of 240 tons, also armed with 17 guns of 000 mm caliber and 4 guns of 305 mm caliber. The third project involved the creation of an armadillo with a displacement of 16 tons, armed with 194 guns of 18 mm caliber and 000 guns of 4 mm caliber.

The project, armed with only 305 mm guns, was abandoned due to the large weight of artillery systems and ammunition and the inability to place a sufficient number of large-caliber guns in the indicated displacement, which would not allow the required number of shots to be fired in a certain period of time.

“In fact, it would be useless to increase the already high costs associated with the construction of battleships by increasing their displacement beyond what is required. Taking into account all the data of naval science and the lessons of the Russo-Japanese War, we come to the conclusion that it is necessary to keep large-caliber 305-mm artillery and that there is no need to install more than 4 pieces on an battleship.

For the 194 mm gun of the 1902 model, the use of a new 117 kg projectile fired at a speed of 876 m/s, instead of an 86 kg projectile fired at 975 m/s, would increase armor penetration by 26% at 6 meters and by 000 % at 34 meters.

However, the majority of representatives of the Naval Council, after additional discussions, came to the conclusion that it was necessary to abandon the use of 194-mm guns on new battleships.

For a 240 mm gun, the use of a new 220 kg projectile at a speed of 800 m/s increased armor penetration by 37% for a distance of 6 meters and by 000% for a distance of 49 meters. The industry was ordered 8-mm shells of the old and new models, which were to be tested by shooting at armor plates. The optimal amount of explosive in the projectile also had to be determined. It was this type of projectile that was offered to the minister under the new program.

In the draft budget of the Naval Ministry for 1906, armaments with a displacement of 18 tons were defined by the new program: 000 guns of 4 millimeters and 305 guns of 12 millimeters, without guns of 240 mm or 164,7 millimeters, that is, they completely abandon medium rapid-fire artillery.


French battleship Danton

At that time, the Office of Naval Weapons was developing a new 274,4-mm gun with a barrel length of 45 calibers. For this reason, representatives of the commission had questions to the Naval Ministry.

“The three battleships included in the budget and being part of the upcoming new program will be of the same type. But each of them will have four 305-mm guns in twin turrets and twelve 240-mm guns of the new model also in twin turrets, which is sixteen pieces of large-caliber artillery, but two calibers. Since it is proposed to use a single steel projectile for each caliber, why not go straight to a single caliber large-caliber gun?

A 305 mm gun is considered too heavy, but a 240 mm gun may be insufficient in some cases and at certain distances. An intermediate type - 274,4 mm could replace 305 mm with the same effects and would be better than 240 mm guns. This would simplify the manufacture and supply of shells to the fleet.

In artillery, it is recognized as an indisputable principle that each caliber must penetrate, at an angle of incidence that cannot be more than 30 degrees, a thickness of armor equal to the diameter of the projectile. So, our 274,4-mm model of 1893-1896, at a distance of 6 m, penetrates armor 000 mm thick, and at 280 m - 8 mm. The new model will certainly give better results. This will make it possible to install ten 000-mm guns on the planned battleships without increasing the displacement of more than 219 tons.

Based on these findings, a request was sent to the Navy Department.

In response, the Department of the Navy expressed its point of view:

“The 240-mm gun of the 1902 model has already been manufactured and tested, so it will be used as auxiliary artillery for the battleships of the new program. We have not planned 274,4 mm guns for these ships, because the issue of replacing the 305 mm guns with this caliber has not been sufficiently studied for us to believe that a satisfactory solution will be obtained in a fairly short time.

The Ministry considered the issue of increasing the weight of shells, in order to improve the penetrating power that can be obtained with a given caliber. Based on the calculations made, a weighted 274,4 mm projectile would weigh 330 kg, which roughly corresponds to the weight of the current 305 mm projectile of 340 kg.

Since it seems useless to increase the weight of the 305 mm projectile, since the latter has effective penetration at a distance of 7 meters, it is quite rational to give preference to which of the two calibers has the greatest advantage, that is, the smallest caliber that will achieve the following advantages: lighter artillery equipment, ammunition, turrets, high rate of fire, a relative increase in speed due to the fact that the 000 mm gun will have a 274,4 caliber barrel, while the 45 mm gun has only 305 calibers.

In terms of velocities, taking into account ongoing testing, we hope to get 865 m/s for a 305 mm BM15 projectile, instead of 815 m/s at present. For a 274,4 mm gun with BM 17 gunpowder, the speed will be 875 m/s.

Thus, it seems reasonable to expect a 274,4 mm gun in the near future, which can replace the 305 mm gun. But for the time being, there is no need to provide for the replacement of 274,4-mm guns by 305-mm guns for the designed ships, since at present the fleet has a 305-mm gun of the 1895-1896 model, which is well known to calculations, while the development of 274,4-mm guns not completed yet.

Under these conditions, we cannot foresee right now when the 274,4 mm gun will be ready. In addition, in case of unsatisfactory results, this will cause a negative reaction of “public opinion”, and as a result, it will increase the criticism expressed against the fleet.”

The German battleship Nassau was laid down in July 1907, with a displacement of 18 tons, she was armed with 870-10 mm guns and had a speed of 280 knots. Fear of the French Naval Ministry to receive a backlash"public opinion"did not allow him to wait for the results of the development and testing of the new 274,4-mm guns.

As a result, the French fleet received six Danton-class battleships, which had much worse combat capabilities than the first German battleships. In addition, it should be noted that in 1909 the estimated battle distances increased to 9–000 meters.

To be continued ...
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  1. +6
    22 November 2022 06: 49
    Plus Yes
    It was the increase in combat distances with the prospect of high-quality burst fire control that predetermined the emergence of the "all-big-gun" concept. "Dantons" are powerful enough for their time, but no one has canceled the assertion that a heavier projectile is preferable for causing damage to the enemy. Yes, situations may arise when smaller calibers disabled battleships, but there should have been a lot of factors to add up to one, that this would happen. The night battles near Guadalcanal in 42 are indicative. So everything is relative. And the same "Dantons" could have some kind of dividends from their average caliber under certain conditions. But this is from the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXb"if only".
    so the French almost guessed with the development of thought and were in the role of catching up in dreadnought fever request
    Personally, my opinion hi
  2. +3
    22 November 2022 09: 11
    Igor, good morning!
    Plus for the article.

    I would rather agree with the opinion of the officers that armored cruisers are weak against battleships. One of the factors is the low rate of fire of the Asama 6-dm guns due to the manual feeding of shells.

    About the rate of the French on the SC. The reason is that the French were counting on a shorter combat distance than the British and therefore preferred the performance of the SC. The British, on the other hand, chose a different concept - long distances, speed to keep them and land mines, because. for armor-piercing action, you need to get closer ...
    1. +4
      22 November 2022 11: 07
      Good afternoon.
      Quote: rytik32
      I would rather agree with the opinion of the officers that armored cruisers are weak against battleships

      Dear Alex, it was not always like this. If you look at the American "Maine", then as they themselves wrote it was an attempt to get a "super cruiser" that can be used for various tasks. The British "Renown" during construction was defined as a half-battleship-half-cruiser, such ships could be used in the line. But with protection reduced to 152mm, keeping them in line was a risky move.
    2. 0
      22 November 2022 17: 30
      Nevertheless, I think that Fischer's teachings and his considerations led to a single caliber. Decisive damage was given by large guns. And in order for these damages to occur as early as possible, they had to have more. And in order to use them correctly, speed was needed. Just a brilliant vision. True, somewhere else the Americans wormed their way there. Apparently, they suffered with two-story towers. The idea was good. But they decided it radically.
      The Russo-Japanese War has already given an opinion on the effectiveness of only 12 dm. Although the Japanese continued to increase the average caliber. Their conclusion was, in general, similar to the French. But 12dm became mandatory for squadron cruisers.
      1. +1
        22 November 2022 17: 43
        Quote: mmaxx
        Decisive damage was given by large guns.

        The dance was not from damage, but from accuracy. The Brits then simply got hung up on the accuracy of shooting. But the shells were not given due attention. They made a powerful land mine, tips for armor-piercing and common - and stopped.
        Quote: mmaxx
        Just a genius idea

        These are the conclusions from the battle in ZhM.

        Quote: mmaxx
        The Russo-Japanese War has already given an opinion on the effectiveness of only 12 dm

        Efficiency is relative. The Japanese 12 in. shells acted much like the British 6 in. HE. If you haven’t seen photos of damage from the British 12-inch HE, write - I'll post it.
        1. 0
          23 November 2022 14: 51
          Yet no one has come to that conclusion.
          It was the opinion of Russian officers. Anything less than 12 dm can be ignored.
  3. +7
    22 November 2022 11: 42
    That's how the Franks missed their chance ...
    However, based on afterthought, they did not really need a fleet.
  4. 0
    22 November 2022 13: 16
    The new Japanese armored cruisers Asama did not go unnoticed either.

    These cruisers were designed and built in Britain in accordance with British doctrine. The British had almost the same ones, the Cressy class.
    1. +1
      22 November 2022 13: 25
      Quote from Yorick
      These cruisers were designed and built in Britain in accordance with British doctrine.

      "For the sake of justice", it should be noted that this doctrine was developed in Italy, everything else is its development.
    2. +5
      22 November 2022 13: 31
      The British had almost the same ones, the Cressy class.


      Yes, they are not very "the same".
      "Asama" (Japanese: 浅間)
      Displacement 9710 tons. Artillery 2 × 2 203 mm
      14x1 152mm
      12x1 76mm
      8x1 47mm


      Cressy-class armored cruisers
      Displacement 12 tons. Artillery 193 × 2 1 mm / 234
      12 × 1 - 152 mm / 45,
      14 × 1 - 76 mm,
      3 × 1 - 47 mm.
    3. +2
      22 November 2022 15: 50
      Nevertheless, the British were normal cruisers, and the Japanese were not armored.
      1. +1
        22 November 2022 17: 54
        Quote: mmaxx
        and the Japanese are not armored.

        Japanese armored cruisers were not "non-armored" or as they were called "camouflaged battleships". With such comparisons, the British tried to justify their erroneous conclusions after the Sino-Japanese war, in relation to the armored battleships of the Canopus type.
        1. +1
          23 November 2022 14: 54
          I wrote this because the Japanese immediately intended to use their cruisers as a unit in a linear battle. And the British, on the contrary, considered it suicide and built clean cruisers. Where everything was right, as for cruisers. When "Invincible" Fisher imposed 12 dm, many were against and believed that 234 mm was needed. Because with such a GC, it will immediately be tempting to put them in a line. where they have nothing to do. What happened.
  5. 0
    22 November 2022 15: 44
    The conclusions of the French, of course, are so-so. But the fact that the Danton is weaker than the Nassau is somehow not believable. "Nassau" on board 8 280 mm. "Danton" 6 274 and 4 305. At the same time, we do not really know about the artillery and shells of the French. Well, the fire control of the Germans, of course, is more convenient than the French zoo.
    1. +1
      23 November 2022 08: 31
      274 was never registered for Danton.
      So 6x240 + 4x305 vs 8x280.
      Danton's minute salvo: 4 * 340 * 1,5 + 6 * 220 * 2 \u4680d XNUMX kg.
      Minute salvo Nassau: 8*300*2 = 4800 kg.
      Their armor is similar, 305 and 280 have approximately equal capabilities (in terms of - to make holes in each other's main armor at the same range, starting from 54-60 kbt and closer), 240 really do not have enough exact data, but they have - then armor penetration should be lower.
      So for Danton it would not be the best idea to engage in a duel with Nassau.
      1. +2
        23 November 2022 10: 48
        Quote: Pushkowed
        240 accurate data is really not enough, but their armor penetration should be lower.

        240 mm guns of the battleship "Danton"
        The initial velocity of the projectile is 800 m / s.
        The projectile speed at a distance of 10000 m is 423 m/s.
        Projectile weight 220 kg
        Penetration at an angle of 0 degrees Harvey's armor;
        6000 m - 319 mm
        10000 m - 206 mm
        Penetration at an angle of 20 degrees;
        6000 m - 299 mm
        10000 m - 194 mm

        Quote: Pushkowed
        So for Danton it would not be the best idea to engage in a duel with Nassau.

        Up to 7000 meters "Danton" could still "compete" with "Nassau", at a greater distance he had little chance.
      2. +1
        23 November 2022 14: 55
        Yes. I screwed up with 240 mm guns. Looked in the wrong place.
      3. +1
        24 November 2022 11: 03
        I'll correct you. The "Dantons" 12-dm shells were already about 440 kg. Exceptionally armor-piercing, equipment - phlegmatized melinite.
        1. 0
          24 November 2022 13: 11
          Quote: rytik32
          I'll correct you. The "Dantons" 12-dm shells were already about 440 kg. Exceptionally armor-piercing, equipment - phlegmatized melinite.

          This is a 1906 model. It did not give a big advantage over the 8-280 mm guns of the Germans. At a distance of 10000 meters, it did not penetrate the 280 mm Nassau armor.
  6. +1
    23 November 2022 08: 07
    battleship Nassau was laid down in July 1907, with a displacement of 18 tons, she was armed with 870 - 10-mm guns
    In fact, he immediately had 12 - 280 mm at the laying.
    1. 0
      23 November 2022 09: 21
      .
      Quote: Pushkowed
      battleship Nassau was laid down in July 1907, with a displacement of 18 tons, she was armed with 870 - 10-mm guns
      In fact, he immediately had 12 - 280 mm



      Thank you. This is a missprint
  7. The comment was deleted.

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