Military Review

Dmitry Pozharsky - commander, politician and diplomat

8

The other day the whole country will celebrate the 400 anniversary of the liberation of Moscow from the Poles by the militia of Minin and Pozharsky. And who is Prince Pozharsky? He is known to all and no one. Pushkin wrote about this paradox in the 30s of the 19th century.

The cult of Pozharsky began to take shape during the Napoleonic wars. The only monument on the main square of the country is dedicated to Minin and Pozharsky. In the name of Pozharsky, cruisers of the tsarist, White Guard and Soviet fleets were called. Armored trains named Pozharsky served in the Red and White armies. But the cult image of Pozharsky is very far from reality.

Pre-revolutionary and Soviet historians have significantly distorted the image of Dmitry Pozharsky. This was done with different goals, and the result was one. From Pozharsky they made an ignorant nobleman, a brave and talented governor, but a weak politician, completely devoid of ambition. In general, this kind of serviceable besserebrenika: accomplished the feat, bowed and stepped aside.

Here, for example, that the famous historian Ivan Zabelin wrote about Pozharsky: “He was a man with low physical capacity. He did nothing extraordinary, acted mediocre with others, showed nothing that denounced the mind of a ruler and the ability of a military leader. He was not all loved and not all obeyed. He himself was conscious of spiritual paucity. ”

So we, willy-nilly, will have to deal with Dmitry Mikhailovich's pedigree.

PRINCIPAL PARENTIAL: WE ARE RURIKOVICH

By the beginning of the XVI century, the princes of Pozharsky were significantly inferior in wealth to the Romanovs, but by their nobility of the clan, neither the Romanovs nor the Godunovs were suitable for them. Pozharsky did not need to enter into the genealogy of wandering Germans ("came from Pruss") or Tatar murz who came to Russia to establish an Orthodox monastery ("The Legend of Chet"). There was no need for the princes Pozharsky to cling to noble families through the female line. The pedigree of the Pozharkovo-Starodubsky princes goes through the male line from the Grand Duke Vsevolod the Big Nest (1154 – 1212). And not a single historian had a shadow of doubt about its truth.

In 1238, the Grand Duke Yaroslav Vsevolodovich gave to his brother Ivan Vsevolodovich the town of Starodub on Klyazma with the region. From the end of the XVI century Starodub began to lose its value, and by the beginning of the XIX century it was already the village of Klyazmensky Township, Kovrov district, Vladimir province.

Starodubsky specific princedom was relatively small, but occupied a strategic position between the Vladimir and Nizhny Novgorod principalities. By the way, and the estate of Dmitry Mikhailovich, the village of Mugreevo, was part of Starodubsky principality.

Ivan Vsevolodovich became the ancestor of the dynasty of independent Starodub princes. His great-grandson Fyodor Ivanovich Starodubsky was killed in 1330, in the Horde. Ivan Kalita wrote Khan Uzbek a denunciation of the Starodub prince. Khan offered Fedor the choice to accept a cruel punishment or go to Islam. The prince preferred death. For his feat, Fyodor received the nickname Blessed and was canonized. The son of the Blessed One, Andrei Fedorovich Starodubsky, distinguished himself in the Battle of Kulikovo. The second son of Andrei Fedorovich, Vasily, received a parish with the town of Pozhar (Pogara) within the Starodub Principality.

By the name of the city of Pozhar (Pohara) Prince Vasily Andreevich and his descendants received the nickname of the princes Pozharsky. At the beginning of the 15th century, the Starodub princes became vassals of Moscow, but retained their inheritance.

Princes Pozharsky faithfully served the Moscow rulers. According to the entry in the "Thousand Books", for 1550 a year in the royal service consisted of 13 Starodub princes: "Prince Ondrej and Prince Fyodor, Prince Ivanov's children of Tatev. Prince Ivan and Peter Prince Borisov children of Romodanovsky. Prince Vasile Prince Ivanov son Kovrov. Prince Ivan Chornaya and Prince Peter, Prince Vasilyev’s children of Pozharsky. Prince Timofey Prince Fedorov son of Pozharsky. Prince Feodor and Ivan Prince Ondreyevy children of Bolshog Gundorov. Prince Fedorov son Daniel. Prince Fyodor and Ivan Prince Ivanovs children of Tretyakov Pozharsky ".

Ivan Fedorovich Pozharsky was murdered near Kazan in 1552. The father of our hero, the steward, Mikhail Fedorovich Pozharsky, distinguished himself during the capture of Kazan and in the Livonian War. But in March, 1566, the year Ivan the Terrible drove from his inheritances all the descendants of the old princes of Starodub. And this misfortune happened not because of their fault, but because of the "cunning" intrigues of the king. Having decided to deal with his cousin Vladimir Andreevich Staritsky, Ivan IV changed his inheritance in order to tear him from his native roots, to deprive him of the true nobility. Instead, Vladimir was given Starodubsk princedom. Starodub princes were sent en masse to Kazan and Sviyazhsk. Among them were Andrei Ivanovich Ryapolovsky, Nikita Mikhailovich Soroka Starodubsky, Fedor Ivanovich Pozharsky (the grandfather of the hero) and others.

The expulsion of the Starodub princes was not only a part of the intrigue of Grozny against his brother, but also an element of the colonization of the Kazan region. Our historians are used to talking about the conquest of Kazan in 1552 year. In fact, for many years in the Kazan region there was a fierce struggle of the Tatar population against the Russians. Starodub princes arrived not alone, but with their retinues and courtyards. They received fairly decent fiefdoms and secondary posts in the administration of the Kazan region. For example, Mikhail Borisovich Pozharsky was appointed commander in Sviyazhsk. Starodub princes ruthlessly suppressed the uprising of the Tatars and made a great contribution to the colonization of the region.

From the 16th century 80, part of the estates in the former Starodubsky principality was gradually returned to its rightful owners. But the "Kazan seat" caused serious damage to the princes Pozharsky in the service and local relations. They were pushed aside by the old princely clans and the new "boyars" that advanced in the reign of Grozny. Thus, Pozharsky, who were in the XIV - beginning of the XVI century, one of the noble families of Rurikovich, were on the periphery, which gave a reason for Soviet historians to call them "a seedy family".

NOT INCLUDED IN DIFFERENT CIRCUITS

Dmitry Mikhailovich Pozharsky was born on November 1 of 1578 in the Kazan region. But his youth passed near Suzdal in the family nest of the village of Mugreev near the river Luh. Dmitry became the second child in the family, he had an older sister Daria and younger brother Vasily. In 1587, his father, Mikhail Fedorovich, died, and all the worries about the family had to be taken over by the mother, Maria Fedorovna, nee Beklemisheva.

In 1593, 15-year-old Dmitry Mikhailovich Pozharsky first arrived at the nobility show. Boris Godunov had nothing to be angry at the Princes Pozharsky, and also at other kinds of Starodub princes. On the other hand, they did not render any special services to Boris, and the governor himself preferred consistent assignment of officials to serving people. As a result, Dmitry Mikhailovich was left at the royal court, he was given the title of bellies, and after a couple of years as a solicitor.

In 1602, Tsar Boris granted a visit to the attendants of Dmitry Mikhailovich and Ivan Petrovich Pozharsky. For 24-year-old Prince Dmitry, this was considered a good start to a career. The stolnik Dmitry Pozharsky was sent to the Lithuanian border by imperial decree.

There is no documentary data on Pozharsky's participation in the war with False Dmitry I. Most likely he remained in Moscow with the person of the sovereign. Together with all Muscovites, Dmitry Mikhailovich kissed the cross to Tsar Dimitry and remained a stolnik at his court.

On the night of May 17, 1606, Pozharsky was away. He was on the Mugreev family estate and, accordingly, did not participate in the coup of Vasily Shuisky. Dmitry Mikhailovich was fantastically lucky, and maybe, on the contrary, not lucky, and he remained aloof from all the coups. And the new king did not reward him and did not punish him. Vasily Shuisky made a "bust" of the stolniki, during which over a hundred people were deprived of this title. Pozharsky still remained the "eternal" stolnik.

At the end of 1607, near Moscow, Pozharsky repeatedly participated in battles with the army of Ivan Bolotnikov. In June 1608, Pozharsky distinguished himself in defending Moscow from the troops of the Tushino thief. It was his cavalry unit that stopped Poles of Rozhinsky on Vagankovsky field on the night of June 4.

In July 1608, Pozharsky was first appointed governor and began to command a separate detachment. At that time there was a continuous struggle of the tsarist troops and the Tushino thief for control over communications.

Voevoda Pozharsky ordered to attack the "Lithuanian people" near the village of Vysotsky (now it is the city of Yegoryevsk). The Tushyntsy were utterly defeated and fled, leaving a wagon train to Pozharsky - “a lot of treasury and reserves.” At the same time, Pozharsky quarreled with Kolomna voevode Ivan Pushkin, who preferred to sit in the prison and refused to give warriors to help Pozharsky. As a result, a few weeks after the battle, Pozharsky had to plead with Tsar Vasiliy with the cheekyly substitute Ivan Pushkin. The Pushkin family had the same “phony” pedigree as the Romanovs, and pulled on Prince Rurikovich. Naturally, the king rejected their claims, but they did not begin to tear them up with batogs, as it was supposed in those days, because of the precariousness of his position.

Pozharsky, the king bestowed the estate in Suzdal district, the center of which was a large village Nizhny Landekh.

In 1609, the king appointed Pozharsky a voivode to Zaraysk. The city was of strategic importance. The first Zaraisk wooden fortress was built in the 15th century on a cape formed by the high bank of the Osetr River (the right tributary of the Oka River) and the island of Bubnova.

During the overthrow of Vasily Shuisky and the beginning of the rule of the seven-boyars, Pozharsky was without a break in Zaraysk and its environs. Pozharsky refused to kiss the cross to prince Vladislav and waited for further developments. Prokopy Lyapunov from Ryazan began to send letters with calls to collect the militia and go to Moscow. Now Tsar Vasily abdicated the throne, and Dmitry Mikhailovich, free from oath, with a calm conscience supported Lyapunov.

BUSINESS PARTNERS AND PARTICIPANTS

King Sigismund decided to destroy Lyapunov and specifically for this purpose sent a large detachment of Poles and Zaporizhzhya Cossacks headed by voivode Isak Sunbulov to Ryazan. The news of the approaching Sunbulova found Procopius Lyapunov in his estate, and he managed to take refuge in the wooden fortress of the town of Pronsk. Pronsk had few warriors, and Lyapunov sent desperate letters of help to neighboring cities. Pozharsky with the Zaraisk warriors moved first to Pronsk. On the way, they were joined by detachments from Kolomna. Upon learning of the arrival of Pozharsky's troops, Poles and Cossacks fled from Pronsk.

After some time, Sunbulov managed to gather his army, and he decided to take revenge on Pozharsky, who had returned from Pronsk to Zaraysk. At night, the Cossacks suddenly tried to capture the Zaraisk Kremlin (jail), but were repulsed. And at dawn Pozharsky made a sortie. The Cossacks fled in panic and no longer showed up at Zaraisk.

Having ensured the safety of his city, Pozharsky was able to go to Ryazan to Lyapunov. They agreed that Lyapunov with the militia would move to Moscow, and Pozharsky would raise a rebellion in the city itself. For this Pozharsky and went to the capital. There is reason to believe that he arrived in Moscow not alone, but with a detachment of "military people."

As you know, in March 1611, Pozharsky led a Muscovite uprising against the Poles. Having been seriously wounded, the glorious voivode was taken to his fiefdom.

Kuzma Minin raises Nizhny Novgorod against the Poles. New militia need a commander. Kuzma urgently demands to call Pozharsky, and only him.

As voivod Pozharsky did not lose a single battle. As a steward, Pozharsky has never broken his loyalty to the king. He was successively betrayed to Boris Godunov, False Dmitry I and Vasily Shuisky, until their death or renunciation freed him from the oath. Pozharsky did not swear allegiance to Tushinsky or Pskov thieves, as well as to King Sigismund, and Prince Vladislav.

It was also very important that Pozharsky was located near the Lower in the village of Mugreev. Finally, the personal acquaintance of Kuzma Minin with the prince played a significant role.

The fact is that the co-owner of the Lunitskaya brine pipe belonging to Fyodor Minin was ... Dmitry Pozharsky. So, before becoming comrades in the second militia, Minin and Pozharsky were comrades in the extraction and sale of salt.

Until January 1612, the voivode Pozharsky was famous for his knowledge of tactics and personal courage. Having led the militia, he showed himself from the first days to be an extraordinary strategist and skilled politician. Kuzma Minin in all unconditionally supported the governor. Both leaders understood that to go straight to Moscow to join up with the militia of Zarutsky and Trubetskoy was to repeat the fate of Lyapunov and destroy the second militia.

Pozharsky proposed to go to Moscow bypassing, up the Volga. Upon learning of his intention, Trubetskoy and Zarutsky decided to get ahead of him, capture Yaroslavl, block the way along the Volga, and cut off the militia from the Russian North. A detachment of thieves Cossacks moved to Yaroslavl with ataman Andrey Prosovetsky.

Pozharsky reacted immediately and sent a mobile squad headed by Dmitry Petrovich Lopaty-Pozharsky to Yaroslavl. The main militia forces solemnly marched from Nizhny Novgorod on the day of Lent February 23 1612. In Balakhna, the first city on the path of the militia, the residents greeted Pozharsky with bread and salt, and local voivode Matvey Pleshcheyev joined the militia.

Yaroslavl without a fight passed into the hands of the second militia. In early April 1612, the main militia forces entered Yaroslavl under the bells.

Military icon "Blessing by Rev. Irinarkh, Recluse of Boris-Glebsky, Orthodox Russian Army, folk heroes - leaders and rescuers of the Fatherland - Kozma Minin and Dmitry Pozharsky in 1612 year". XVII century

YAROSLAVL GOVERNMENT

Minin and Pozharsky decided to end the Troubles once and for all - to assemble a Council in Yaroslavl for the election of a tsar and a patriarch, and only then move to Moscow.

Convening the Council in an atmosphere of turmoil and chaos is not a matter of weeks, but of long months. Therefore, in Yaroslavl, without waiting for the Council, the Zemstvo government was created, which already controls most of Russia.

By order of Minin and Pozharsky in Kostroma, Suzdal, Ustyuzhna, Uglich, Pereslavl-Zalessky, Beloozero, Tobolsk, Rostov, Vladimir, Kashin, Tver, Kasimov were replaced by governors, in whose place were loyal people. In Yaroslavl, institutions such as ministries have emerged: the Local Order (they were led by clerks Martemyanov and Likhachev), the discharge order (Varev and Danilov), the Grand Palace (Yemelyanov), the Monastery order (Vitovtov and Dmitriev), the Ambassadorial order (Romanchuk). Golovnin began to be in charge of the Siberian territories, and the Novgorod quarter first Yudin, then Ivanov.

Of course, besides the secular power there must be power and spiritual. For the convocation of the Great Cathedral, time was needed, but for the time being the Spiritual Council was created, at the head of which the former Rostov Metropolitan Kirill was appointed.

The Yaroslavl government also established a new state emblem, on which a lion was depicted. On the large palace seal two lions were depicted standing on their hind legs. If desired, the introduction of a new coat of arms can be explained by the fact that all impostors have performed under the banners with the double-headed eagle, the emblem of the Russian state since the times of Ivan III. But, on the other hand, the new state emblem was very much like the emblem of Prince Pozharsky, where two roaring lions were depicted. Yes, and Pozharsky himself was now called "Voivode and Prince Dmitry Mikhailovich Pozharkovo-Starodubsky" ..

The activities of the Yaroslavl government began to bear fruit. Even remote areas of Pomorye and Siberia sent money and their representatives to Yaroslavl.

Considering himself the ruler of the state, Pozharsky took all foreign affairs into his own hands. The voevoda understood perfectly well that the second militia had no forces for a simultaneous war with the Poles and the Swedes, and decided to gain time by entering into negotiations with Sweden. For this 13 of May 1612, Stepan Tatishchev was sent to Novgorod with diplomas from Minin and Pozharsky to Metropolitan Isidore, Novgorod Governor, Prince Ivan the Great Nikitich Odoyevsky and Swedish Governor Jacob Delagardi.

The letters to the metropolitan and voivode Odoevsky contained inquiries about the state of affairs in Novgorod and about relations with the Swedish invaders. In the letter to Delagardi, Minin and Pozharsky wrote that if the Swedish king "gives his brother to the state and christens him in the Orthodox Christian faith," the second militia will support his candidacy for the Russian throne.

In the middle of June 1612, the ambassador of the Austrian emperor Rudolf II Yusuf Grigorovich, returning with the Persian embassy from Shah Abass, arrived in Yaroslavl on a journey back to Yaroslavl. He was adopted by Pozharsky. In the course of the small talk, the question of the candidacy of the Archduke Maximilian to the throne of the imperial brother emerged somehow by itself. It is not known who was the first to “say meow” about Maximilian, but it was unlikely that this could be done by the ambassador, who did not have the sanction of the emperor. Pozharsky told Gregorovich that the Russian Maximilians "will be received with great joy."

Historian Sergei Solovyov wrote: “The leaders of the militia, due to their inexperience, thought that Austria would now want to be grateful and would help the Moscow State in its need.”

Now these statements are repeated by everyone who writes about Pozharsky, and he does not even put quotes. In fact, the governor was not so inexperienced. Note that the Austrian emperors have long sought an alliance with Russia against Poland.

So, Pozharsky tried to arrange a war for Poland on two fronts (as in 1939 year!) With a rather high probability of success. However, for several reasons, including because of the Turkish threat, Rudolph II did not speak out against Poland. However, the very fact of the negotiations of the Yaroslavl government with the Austrian emperor was noticed in Poland and became a serious argument among friendly gentlemen against the royal war with Russia.

PREPARATION FOR THE ELECTION OF THE KING

And inside the country, the rumors about the brother of the Swedish king and brother of the emperor of the Holy Roman Empire created Pozharsky great propaganda effect. Well, suppose, the leaders of the militia gathered in Yaroslavl, a Council of representatives of all Russian cities, and the candidacy is one - the stolnik Pozharsky. But there are no others, noble people gathered under the banner of the second militia were, to put it mildly, frivolous. And it would turn out that Pozharsky chose himself. And here are the best candidates in Europe, the Archduke and the Prince. Another question is if the Council discovers fundamental flaws in each of them. Well, then forgive me, we were looking for all over Europe, we didn’t find anything better, there is nobody else to be a king like Dmitry Mikhailovich.

It seemed a little more and the Zemsky Sobor would elect the governor to be king, and Metropolitan Kirill as patriarch. The Troubles would be over in a matter of months. All история Russian state could go the other way.

However, fate decreed quite differently. In July 1612, the army of Hetman Hodkevich moved to Moscow. A fatal dilemma arose before Pozharsky and Minin - to go to Moscow meant to ruin the plan of saving the state, which was on the verge of success. Under Moscow, willy-nilly, we will have to cooperate with the first militia, recognize its legitimacy and share the fruits of victory. And what the public from the first militia was, Pozharsky and Minin knew firsthand. There was no doubt that the thieving Cossacks would continue to be a source of unrest and upheaval. But, on the other hand, it was also impossible to wait until Khodkevich would disperse the Cossacks and unblock the Gonsevsky army. This will compromise the second militia and especially its leaders. Learning about Khodkevich's campaign, many Cossack atamans from a camp near Moscow wrote tear-letters to Pozharsky with a request for help.

A similar request to Pozharsky was made by the monks of the Trinity Monastery of St. Sergius. Avaramy Palitsyn, who persuaded Pozharsky and Minin for a long time, immediately went to Yaroslavl. Of the two evils, I had to choose the lesser, and Pozharsky ordered to prepare for the march on Moscow.

Further well known. The Polish army of hetman Khodkevich was defeated and fled to Mozhaisk, and the Polish garrison in Moscow capitulated on October 27 (November November 4 in a new style) 1612. Later, the royal historians will invent that Pozharsky proposed to choose the Tsar 16-year-old Mikhail Romanov, who, along with all his kin, was under siege in the Kremlin.

What happened, why stupid glorious voivode? Maybe his Polish core contusilous or sixtop went on a helmet? No, Dmitry Mikhailovich Pozharsky actively participated in the struggle for the throne. Why are there no written eyewitness accounts of Pozharsky's election campaign? Well, firstly, it is reasonable to assume that all such documents were destroyed by decree of Michael, and secondly, Moscow is not Warsaw and not Paris, loudly promising zloty pans for being elected to the throne and saying historical phrases that Mass, not accepted. Neither Godunov nor Mikhail never offered themselves to the throne, but on the contrary, categorically refused it. Accordingly, Pozharsky could not break the tradition. But, alas, he made two fatal mistakes. Firstly, what was already mentioned, entered into an agreement with the boyars during the surrender of the Poles, and secondly, failed to keep in Moscow the noble units from the second militia. As a result, the Tushino Cossacks were threatened to use force, and in some cases even by brute force they succeeded in dragging Mikhail Romanov to the throne.

AFTER DISEASE WAS A WAR

Whether we like it or not, no national unity of 4 was observed in November and in the following weeks in Moscow. Alas, Smoot not only after 4 in November, but also after Mikhail's arrival in Moscow, not only did not weaken, but even increased. Moreover, from the end of 1610 of the year to 4 in November of 1612, the vowel trend of the Troubles was to fight the Polish intervention, then after November 4 the Poles left the game for five years.

Smoot also acquired the character of a purely civil war - Muscovites against Muscovites. Local clashes in the north with the Swedes and the participation of individual “Polish subjects” (mainly Lithuanians and Little Russians) in the Russian thief detachments did not change the picture as a whole.

After the seizure of power in Moscow by the Tush supporters of the Romanovs, the war in Muscovy flared up with a new force. The scale of hostilities from Vyazma to Kazan and from Solovki to Astrakhan also expanded. No one considered the losses of the Russian people, but it can be safely stated that from November 4 1612 to October 18, 1617 (the day the resumption of active hostilities by the Poles) killed more people than in any five years of Troubles from 1605 to 1611.

It is curious who made a fundamental mistake by proclaiming the day of the transition of the national liberation struggle against the Poles into a purely civil war as the Day of National Unity? So, November 4 is just a brilliant victory of Minin and Pozharsky over the Poles. The victory, which led the Poles out of the war by almost five years.

By the way, this year we are celebrating the second round anniversary - the 200 anniversary of the victory over the Poles who invaded Russia along with Napoleon’s Great Army. In this army there were over 150 thousand ethnic Poles and about 200 thousand ethnic French. Moreover, if the goal of Napoleon was to force Alexander I to fulfill the conditions of the Peace of Tilzi and other agreements, the pans dreamed of turning the Russian Empire into the Moscow principality and creating the Commonwealth “from mozh to mozha”, that is, from Baltic to the Black Sea with Riga, Smolensk, Kiev and Odessa.
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  1. Nagaibak
    Nagaibak 1 November 2012 19: 42
    +3
    "Moreover, if the goal of Napoleon was to force Alexander I to fulfill the conditions of the Tilsit Peace and other agreements, the pans dreamed of turning the Russian Empire into a Moscow principality and the creation of the Commonwealth" from Mozha to Mozha, "that is, from the Baltic to the Black Sea with Riga, Smolensk , Kiev and Odessa. " This can be answered with the words of Denis Davydov "Poles and Russians do not enter the battle, we will devour in Lithuania, but we will sow in Kamchatka."
  2. ikrut
    ikrut 1 November 2012 19: 46
    +4
    Poles are historical losers and terpils. This state - misunderstanding is alive only thanks to Stalin. Poland and the Poles could simply disappear from the world map, if not for the Red Army and Stalin. And they still have the audacity to blame the Russians for allegedly not helping them in time during the Warsaw uprising in 1944. Although, in my opinion, they themselves could wait for the Russian offensive and support the Red Army in the city. In World War II, the USSR laid 2 soldiers in Poland. From the side of the Poles there is only hatred and historical insults.
    And the article is very interesting and instructive. Thanks to the author.
  3. Egoza
    Egoza 2 November 2012 01: 02
    +2
    Quote: ikrut
    And they still have the audacity to blame the Russians for allegedly not helping them in time during the Warsaw uprising in 1944.


    So the "Polish government" from London called for an uprising! Moreover, they even promised support from the British troops. Something to Britain no claims! And they will not remember how their cities and shrines were cleared of mines and people were saved. They are also eternally offended, like the Lithuanians.

    And thanks to the author for the excellent article.
  4. avreli
    avreli 2 November 2012 04: 26
    +2
    Great stuff. The author is a plus, of course.
    Well, so few comments?
    Or toasts are not applied, and it’s time to transform the patriotic slogan “in Russia there is a tradition every two hundred years to expel p ... owls from the Kremlin”, adding “and invite others there” ...
    1. Cat
      Cat 2 November 2012 06: 36
      +2
      Quote: avreli

      Great stuff. The author is a plus, of course.
      Well, so few comments?

      And who exactly do you want to comment on?
      Here you don’t have any kind of social network where it’s customary for any reason and without a like to poke and move enthusiastic claims. Here, as it were, a solid resource on which sane people are sitting, for the most part. Not used to speaking out on issues in which they are not even the least bit aware.

      Well, the sad fact that most people know the history of their country within 100-150 years and very vaguely imagine what happened before is a topic for another discussion.
  5. avreli
    avreli 2 November 2012 07: 42
    0
    Quote: Cat
    Here you don’t have any social network where it’s accepted ...

    Nicely formulate - accurately and figuratively.
    However, I do not agree, the resource is increasingly turning into a kind of social network - and “likes”, and “toasts” and more than enough riffraff.
    However, somewhere they wrote that for others the site is almost the only outlet.
    Well, to “sane people. Not used to speaking out on issues in which they are not even the least bit aware. ” There are about a dozen and a half. IMHO
    Well, of course, if you do not take into account that everyone knows how to engage in politics and how to raise children. wink
    1. Cat
      Cat 2 November 2012 07: 48
      +1
      Quote: avreli
      that everyone knows how to engage in politics and how to raise children

      Well so estessno =) Only a nuance: not to do politics, scold power. This is sacred for us, as well as children =)
  6. xan
    xan 4 November 2012 01: 57
    +3
    in vain the Poles boast that they visited Moscow at that time
    then there was a civil war, where the Poles took one of the parties
    nothing was shining in the direct intervention of the psheks, as further events showed. the Poles were generally unlucky in history, they had the second place in missed opportunities, more only the Spaniards were unlucky in history.
    and Pozharsky honor and glory, few people can be put next to him in the entire history of Russia. maybe Romanovs and were less worthy at that time to become a royal dynasty, but later on they showed themselves to be statesmen and patriots. where is the guarantee that Pozharsky’s heirs would succeed more.