Lessons from naval battles of the Russo-Japanese War. View from France. Artillery

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Lessons from naval battles of the Russo-Japanese War. View from France. Artillery


Artillery


The effectiveness of large-caliber artillery in the battles that took place between Russian and Japanese ships is confirmed by all documents. But not everyone in France believed that it was necessary to get rid of medium-caliber guns. According to some officers, it was the shells of this artillery that seriously damaged the Russian battleships in the Tsushima battle.



The Russians opened fire from about 8 meters, the Japanese began to respond only from 000 meters and closed to a distance of 6 meters. Reports note that the maximum effect produced by artillery was achieved at a distance of 000–3 meters.

About the Battle of Tsushima, Admiral Togo wrote:

“... we answered only when we approached a distance of 6 meters ... as we approached, the effectiveness of our fire increased.
... the fire became fully effective only when the squadrons came close enough "...

Russian sources also report that two fleet approached at a distance of up to 3 meters.

This is not surprising, at a distance of 3 meters, shooting will certainly be more accurate than at a distance of 000, 6 and 000 meters.

At a distance of 3 meters, the 000-mm gun is formidable weapon. Its projectiles, exploding against the side or deck of the ship, inflict huge damage, injuring or killing with their fragments, and also have a very strong suffocating effect on all personnel in the immediate vicinity of the explosion site.

If the projectile is armor-piercing, it can penetrate an armor plate with a thickness equal to its diameter, that is, the thickest armor that existed at that time.


Part of a Japanese large-caliber projectile that hit the battleship Tsesarevich.

It is quite obvious that an ironclad armed with 305 mm guns and reinforced in all its parts with armor thick enough to protect it from the 305 mm projectiles themselves, would be a formidable weapon of war. But this is not feasible.

Still less should one dream of arming an ordinary battleship with only 305 mm guns, because of the small number of these guns that she could carry, considering that the weight of defensive towers must be added to the weight of the guns, their mounts and projectiles. It will be necessary to design a ship with an increased displacement, and this will require the restructuring of not only the docks, but also the entire port equipment.

At present, the rate of fire at firing ranges is 30 seconds for 305 mm, 240 mm and 194 mm guns. For a gun with a caliber of 274,4 mm, 34 seconds are required. At the same time, 164,7-mm guns fire 3-4 rounds per minute. Therefore, the rate of fire and the number of guns are of great importance for the armament of an armadillo.

The medium artillery of the Japanese was able, due to their superior numbers, to inflict heavy damage on the Russian ships they fired on, while the less trained Russian gunners achieved a small number of hits that did not cause serious damage to the Japanese battleships. While Admiral H. Togo had thrown the Russian squadron into disarray with his medium artillery, he approached and used his large-caliber artillery in such conditions that he could not be afraid of Russian guns.

Medium artillery, due to the large number of guns, is an excellent means of destroying all secondary equipment, chimneys, masts, command and steering bridges, small-caliber artillery, the destruction of which makes it very difficult to protect the ship from destroyers, causing fires. Its effect is proportional to the number of guns and rate of fire.

A 305 mm projectile hitting an armadillo undoubtedly produces a very strong effect, even if it does not penetrate the hull, but this effect is local in nature, because the gun is fired slowly.

Everything else is the effect produced by the shells that the medium artillery continuously rains down on the ship, on all its parts at the same time.

The change in design and the replacement of 18 164,7-mm guns on battleships of the République type by 10 194-mm guns, according to this group of officers, only led to a weakening of firepower.

The battleship République could fire 1 kilograms of iron and explosives per minute in a broadside salvo from medium-caliber artillery, while the 404 5-mm guns of the battleship Démocratie could fire only 194 kilograms, but inflict much more damage than 860-mm guns .

These conclusions fully confirmed the opinion of that part of the naval and artillery officers who considered it necessary to keep this artillery on the new battleships.

164,7 mm naval guns


In France, 5 models of 164,7 mm guns were developed, during these works the length of the charging chamber increased from 950 mm to 1 mm. The weight of the charge has grown from 300 kilograms to 13,1–18,3 kilograms. These changes resulted in increased strength of gun mounts, replacement of recoil devices, and special attention was paid to strengthening the barrel strength.

According to the French, the barrels used for naval guns were superior to those produced in England and used in the Japanese fleet. Based on available reports, gun barrels were often damaged by firing, unable to withstand the loads.


Rupture of the barrel of a 6-inch English gun.

In models 1887, 1891, 1893-1896. a charge in a brass sleeve was used, in models 1893–1896 M a charge consisting of a silk cap and a brass sleeve was used, later a charge consisting of two silk caps was used.

But this forced changes in the design of the supply elevators, as well as in the internal layout of the artillery cellars. In connection with the increase in the charge, the strength of the shells was increased. If in steel shells this happened due to a change in the composition of steel, then in cast iron shells, the wall thickness had to be increased, which led to a decrease in the amount of explosive in the shell.

Commission request


The commission turned to the Naval Artillery Directorate with a request for clarification on the proposal to use 164,7 mm guns in new battleship projects.

Received a response very quickly:

“The table shows the armor penetration capabilities in millimeters that can be expected from 164,7 mm steel projectiles with caps, model 1902, at angles of inclination from 0 to 30 degrees relative to the normal.

cemented armor


If we take as the limit of the effective penetration distance the one at which the projectile is still capable of penetrating a thickness of cemented armor equal to its caliber at a fall of 30 degrees, then it is clear that the 164,7 mm projectile is effective from this point of view only up to 3 meters.

Thus, this caliber is no longer sufficient in combat. It should be added that at present, from the guns of the 1893-1896 model. shooting reaches no more than three rounds per minute, with a two-section charge. For the 1902 model discussed above, the speed is 950 m/s, the rate of fire is reduced to two shots per minute. These shells will not have a significant effect on the armadillo armor.

The projectile, weighing 52 kilograms, can be used in the armament of cruisers or mail and passenger high-speed steamers in war. Therefore, it is advisable to use a smaller caliber for this projectile. Then it is possible to achieve an increase in the rate of fire, a projectile weighing 52 kilograms is relatively light for a 164,7 mm gun. A suitable caliber for a 52 kg projectile would be a 150–155 mm gun.

So, in any case, the 164,7 mm caliber should be abandoned, the secondary artillery on the battleships will be 194 mm or 240 mm, which is effective at distances from 6 to 000 meters against the armor of the upper belt and the extremities of similar battleships of other countries " .


A high-explosive shell hit the armor of a casemate of a 6-inch gun of the armored cruiser Gromoboy.

After this response, discussions regarding the installation of 164,7 mm guns on battleships were discontinued.

Продолжение следует ...
67 comments
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  1. +5
    13 November 2022 06: 01
    Thanks to the author, but ... "Good! But not enough!" hi
  2. +3
    13 November 2022 07: 50
    at a distance of 3 meters, shooting will necessarily be more accurate than at a distance of 000, 6 and 000 meters

    It pulls on the Nobel Prize ... wink
    And I enjoyed reading the article!
  3. +3
    13 November 2022 10: 31
    reloaded three times, but all the illustrations did not load crying
    But still the author is a fat plus good
    1. +3
      13 November 2022 12: 35
      Good afternoon.
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      reloaded three times, but all the illustrations did not load

      I don’t know why they didn’t load, everything opened for me.
      1. +1
        13 November 2022 17: 10
        Quote: 27091965i
        I don’t know why they didn’t load, everything opened for me.

        Magic-s! request
      2. +1
        14 November 2022 02: 31
        Quote: 27091965i
        I don’t know why they didn’t load, everything opened for me.

        Dear Igor, of course, there are no complaints against you, these are site problems. I opened two photos, the first ("Tsesarevich") and the last ("Gromoboy").
        I once had a similar problem on another site, and one good person advised me to "run" the photo through the radical before uploading it.
        It helped.
        1. 0
          14 November 2022 09: 02
          Good afternoon.
          I'll put this photo in the comments, I hope it opens here;
  4. +4
    13 November 2022 10: 44
    Dear Igor, good afternoon!

    The article is interesting and logical - I ask you to accept thanks.

    The French did not see damage on the damaged Russian ship that corresponded to the action of French 12-inch high-explosive melinite shells, they counted only 3 hits by 12-inch shells on the Eagle. But the Japanese were able to inflict decisive damage ... How? It turns out shells of medium caliber! So the French made a conclusion about the effectiveness of medium-caliber shells!

    I look forward to continuing!
    1. +3
      13 November 2022 12: 27
      Good afternoon.
      Quote: rytik32
      But the Japanese were able to inflict decisive damage ... How? It turns out shells of medium caliber! So the French made a conclusion about the effectiveness of medium-caliber shells!

      In relation to the French, this is rather a confirmation of the views of Admiral A. Petit-Thouar, although it refers to the sailing fleet, but the main provisions, taking into account the elapsed time, have been confirmed. He believed that in a battle between squadrons, it was necessary to initially try to slow down the enemy and disrupt control with the fire of smaller-caliber guns. Then, approaching a short distance, use large-caliber guns, but all this is in relation to his time. As we can see, more than 200 years have passed, and tactics have remained practically unchanged, with the exception of progress that affected ships and weapons.
    2. +1
      14 November 2022 02: 40
      Quote: rytik32
      The French did not see damage on the damaged Russian ship that corresponded to the action of French 12-inch high-explosive melinite shells, they counted only 3 hits by 12-inch shells on the Eagle. But the Japanese were able to inflict decisive damage ... How? It turns out shells of medium caliber! So the French made a conclusion about the effectiveness of medium-caliber shells!

      Without any sarcasm, dear colleague - a mysterious French soul.
      Constant witty ideas in theory, in reality often turn out to be zilch.
      For example, in our city, the authorities spent fifty million to study the question of whether it is possible to launch the metro not underground, but directly on the ground.
      It is immediately clear to any sane person that this is impossible. At first I thought it was just a way to steal city money. But no, many French believe that there is something to think about.
      So we look at the same thing with them, but we perceive it differently.
      1. 0
        14 November 2022 08: 18
        Some banal truths are "discovered" by the French. The article is full of water. If you write it briefly, then: "the Japanese were successful with their 305 mm shells due to the short combat distance of up to 3000 m, and medium-caliber artillery is not effective against armored boxes." Everything.
        1. +2
          14 November 2022 09: 06
          Quote: Monster_Fat
          Some banal truths are "discovered" by the French. The article is full of water.

          For us, living in 2022 and knowing history, this seems banal, but people in 1905-1906 would not agree with you.
          This is not an article, but a historical review of the views of officers and engineers in 1905-1906 on the further development of the French fleet.
  5. +3
    13 November 2022 11: 18
    Igor, thanks for the article, very interesting!
    We look forward to continuing!
    It is not clear how the French made conclusions about the armor penetration of 305-mm shells, if the Japanese shells practically did not penetrate any armor. Or is it irrespective of the Japanese, but concerned 305-mm guns "in general"?
    PS Some of the pictures didn't load? And in the paragraph about the 194-mm République, a typo in the caliber crept in somewhere.
    1. +2
      13 November 2022 11: 56
      Good afternoon.
      Quote: Andrey Tameev
      It is not clear how the French made conclusions about the armor penetration of 305-mm shells, if the Japanese shells practically did not penetrate any armor. Or is it irrespective of the Japanese, but concerned 305-mm guns "in general"?

      This is a general look at 305 mm guns. The British have a theoretical calculation of the battle between the armored cruiser "Asama" and the battleship "Royal Sovereign", which addresses this issue. Perhaps I use part of the excerpts from it, but then I will have to add the opinion of W. White and Admiral D. Fisher.
      1. 0
        13 November 2022 12: 55
        Very interesting! And what did the British think about Japanese and Russian shells at Tsushima?
        1. +1
          13 November 2022 13: 57
          Quote: Andrey Tameev
          And what did the British think about Japanese and Russian shells at Tsushima?

          Despite the "praise" that published "The Times", the professionals reacted with "coolness", the British knew what effect they had. During the second experimental shooting at the old battleship "Belleisle", they tested not only new armor, but also shells with more powerful liddite, in their opinion, it is impossible to destroy the battleship using only such shells. According to Russian claims to the quality of workmanship, acceptance and problems with fuses. Tsushima, in my opinion, is an exception to the rule. In addition, they believed that the armored cruisers of the Japanese should have been, if not destroyed, then received very severe damage. The combination of many factors led to the death of the Second Pacific Squadron.
          1. 0
            13 November 2022 15: 39
            Where can you see this in more detail? Especially about Russian shells?
            1. +1
              13 November 2022 16: 22
              Quote: Andrey Tameev
              Where can you see this in more detail? Especially about Russian shells?

              "Minutes of proceedings of the Royal Artillery Institution", found in Antiaircraft journal.
              1. 0
                13 November 2022 18: 27
                Will you give me a link? I really need it, I'm choosing the material
                1. 0
                  13 November 2022 19: 20
                  Quote: Andrey Tameev
                  Will you give me a link? I really need it, I'm choosing the material

                  Dear Andrei, I remember that you are collecting material for a book. I will prepare several links indicating the publications that will interest you in the first place and send them to you.
      2. +1
        13 November 2022 18: 19
        Quote: 27091965i
        Good afternoon.
        Quote: Andrey Tameev
        It is not clear how the French made conclusions about the armor penetration of 305-mm shells, if the Japanese shells practically did not penetrate any armor. Or is it irrespective of the Japanese, but concerned 305-mm guns "in general"?

        This is a general look at 305 mm guns. The British have a theoretical calculation of the battle between the armored cruiser "Asama" and the battleship "Royal Sovereign", which addresses this issue. Perhaps I use part of the excerpts from it, but then I will have to add the opinion of W. White and Admiral D. Fisher.

        Why not add? I like to read with pleasure.
        I doubt that others will too. Thank you for the article and we look forward to continuing.
      3. 0
        18 November 2022 05: 50
        Drag everything. It is very interesting.
        Polreniooolrprorpoo. For a comment to pass laughing
  6. +4
    13 November 2022 17: 02
    Plus hi
    In my opinion, by the time of the REV, everyone (today such comrades would be called "experts"), comrades more or less knowledgeable in the development of the fleet, already believed that the average artillery on battleships could only carry auxiliary. function, but not the main one in the destruction of the enemy. These voices simply drowned in bureaucracy and rigidity. Too many factors with the development of military technical thought begin to influence the success of the use of SC. Therefore, immediately after the RYAV, the SK crawled up on battleships, which, of course, also had its negative sides (difficulty in distinguishing bursts, an increase in the cost of the ship, etc.). "," Lord Nelson "," the same French "Danton", "Satsuma" ... So the appearance of the "Dreadnought" with the "Michigan", as the logical end of the era of the EDB and the beginning of the era of full-fledged ships of the line, was only a matter of time. request
    1. +2
      13 November 2022 18: 27
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Plus hi
      In my opinion, by the time of the REV, everyone (today such comrades would be called "experts"), comrades more or less knowledgeable in the development of the fleet, already believed that the average artillery on battleships could only carry auxiliary. function, but not the main one in the destruction of the enemy. These voices simply drowned in bureaucracy and rigidity. Too many factors with the development of military technical thought begin to influence the success of the use of SC. Therefore, immediately after the RYAV, the SK crawled up on battleships, which, of course, also had its negative sides (difficulty in distinguishing bursts, an increase in the cost of the ship, etc.). "," Lord Nelson "," the same French "Danton", "Satsuma" ... So the appearance of the "Dreadnought" with the "Michigan", as the logical end of the era of the EDB and the beginning of the era of full-fledged ships of the line, was only a matter of time. request

      But for St. Andrew the First-Called, the average caliber also increased to 203 mm.
      And once upon a time, in my youth, in the magazine "Technology of Youth" there was an article about the project of a dreadnought proposed by a naval officer Stepanov at the end of the 19th century.
      It is clear that the source is so-so, but the article was. I think I even saved the clipping somewhere.
      1. +4
        13 November 2022 19: 09
        Quote: Ulan.1812
        But for St. Andrew the First-Called, the average caliber also increased to 203 mm.

        Like pasta, their "Regina Elena" had 12 of them. And there, 8 inches were rather the main one than 2-305mm ... A speed of 21 knots assumed a quick approach and shedding of the enemy with a hail of 203mm shells. Dead end - with good visibility, you still have to have time to approach an acceptable distance under fire of a larger caliber. Like the American "Connecticuts" - where the Americans, as the late M. Zadornov used to say, in their minds, managed to add an average 8 "to the 7" medium caliber too ... As a result, the gunners' fire control task is still the same fool
        The Russians simply did not have time to develop something worthwhile - the loss of the fleet in the REV required to quickly build something relatively normal, therefore, laid on the slipway like ships of the Borodino type, the battleships were radically rebuilt with the strengthening of the middle artillery to the caliber that they could produce a lot and the placement of which would not lead to a delay in work on the ships, i.e. 203mm. Even without noticeable alterations, the Black Sea "Evstafii" also intensified - they received 4 - 203mm guns each, we will replace 6 "guns at the corners of the spardeck ...
        In fact, 203 mm SK guns on the last battleships with increased combat distances to fight a similar enemy are so-so. Subsequently, using the example of the Falklands battle and the battle at Dogger Bank, time showed that 203mm guns (even if there were 210mm guns - this essentially does not change) is not an argument even for causing any damage to ships that have grown in size - 210mm shells did not cause any damage to the British with 152mm armor at a long distance, and the British did not even notice the Blucher guns request
        So the 203 mm SK of the last Russian battleships is more of a necessary measure than the 240 mm guns of the guns of their classmates. The shell of the latter was 2 times heavier than the 8 "wok - 220kg versus 112 ... And this is at least something ... Draw your own conclusions hi
        1. +2
          13 November 2022 19: 35
          Thank you. I agree with everything and my opinion is no different from yours. Most of all, of course, the Japanese with a medium caliber were smart. About Evstafiy and Blucher in the know.
          I read that the British simply misled the Germans that their battlecruisers would carry a dozen 234 mm guns. Because they designed Blucher with 210 mm.
          1. +2
            13 November 2022 22: 47
            Quote: Ulan.1812
            Most of all, of course, the Japanese with medium caliber were smart

            How to say what On paper, the 6 - 254 mm side salvo of the "Satsuma" looks impressive in addition to the main gun, the same applies to the 240 mm of the ships mentioned above. Bursts at long distances are difficult to distinguish, but .... knowing the exact distance and if a senior artilleryman with brains and a stopwatch, but with some drop in the rate of fire, alternating volleys, you can shoot with high quality and at one target. But we know the history of the appearance of the "Dreadnought", therefore everyone should have come to this. It's just that the British were quicker. Although the Yankees had previously concocted their Michigan project.
            And the Japanese managed to trick with their "Kawachi" by pushing another 50-caliber guns onto the ship due to the lack of 45-caliber guns. Which, to some extent, again made it difficult to control the fire. Although the same "Satsuma" and "Aki" were supposed to carry only 12 "guns, becoming the first "all-big-gun". But the cap turned out to be not according to Senka smile smile smile
            1. 0
              13 November 2022 23: 01
              Precisely I was just thinking about the adjustment.
              If the Americans hadn't calved with the construction, then perhaps we would have called the new battleships "Michigans" and not "dreadnoughts".
              1. +2
                13 November 2022 23: 24
                To some extent yes smile The American layout of the GK has actually become a reference one - almost everyone will eventually come to a linearly elevated arrangement. But the highlight of the "Dreadnought" was still the KTU, which allowed it to develop a speed of more than 21 knots. And all tactical schemes at that time were built on superiority in speed. Alas, Michigan, with the speed of the then standard battleships of 18,5 knots, was losing in this regard. Because "Dreadnought" is more breakthrough than "Michigan" request
                1. +1
                  13 November 2022 23: 58
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  To some extent yes smile The American layout of the GK has actually become a reference one - almost everyone will eventually come to a linearly elevated arrangement. But the highlight of the "Dreadnought" was still the KTU, which allowed it to develop a speed of more than 21 knots. And all tactical schemes at that time were built on superiority in speed. Alas, Michigan, with the speed of the then standard battleships of 18,5 knots, was losing in this regard. Because "Dreadnought" is more breakthrough than "Michigan" request

                  Yes, I agree. The head-covering tactic, ... the notorious "stick over T" used by Togo in Tsushima, created the illusion for many that this was a panacea for victory.
                  The British, even for this, built a series of high-speed super-dreadnoughts Quinn Elizabeth with a course of 25 knots, and a 15-inch main battery.
                  True, they later refused, they realized that under Tsushima, Togo was allowed to use this tactic, the prevailing circumstances. Which will not necessarily be in other battles.
                  By the way, I consider Tsushima not only a shame, but also a tragedy of Russian sailors, an example of their heroism and devotion to duty.
                  This is a shame for the tsarist government, and not for the Russian sailors, who were sent to certain death.
                  A great blockbuster could have been made to outdo Hollywood's Pearl Harbor.
                  And the film could have ended on a victorious note - the hoisting of our flag over Port Arthur.
                  But this is so ... lyrical digression.
                  1. 0
                    14 November 2022 00: 01
                    I forgot to add, it seems that the British tried to cover their heads in the Battle of Jutland, but only there was not Rozhdestvensky in front of them.
                    1. +1
                      14 November 2022 06: 34
                      Quote: Ulan.1812
                      it seems that the British tried to cover their heads in the Battle of Jutland,

                      belay so they carried out the classic "crossing-T" Yes Jellicoe's luck was in the correct assumption of the location and course of the Germans, Scheer's genius was in a timely reaction to what was happening and a wonderful way out of the trap. The fact that he again stepped on the British for the second time and again landed in the middle of the formation, ordering the already battered Hipper to commit "suicide", is another story. Do not forget that the speeds were better than in Tsushima, the visibility was not good, and it was getting dark. That's why the British did not have time to chop the Germans request smile
                      1. 0
                        14 November 2022 09: 52
                        Yes ... the topic is extensive, you can’t describe it in a nutshell.
      2. +1
        18 November 2022 05: 53
        Nevertheless, "Andrey" and "Pavel" were already laid down. Something seriously was difficult to change. As well as on "Evstafiya".
  7. 0
    14 November 2022 13: 13
    I advise everyone who has not read it to read the trilogy "Port Arthur" by Stepanov 2 books, the third "The Zvonarev Family". Especially Port Arthur. Read carefully and understand why the Russians left Port Arthur and lost that war.
    1. 0
      4 December 2022 20: 52
      Quote: Armen Sologyan
      the trilogy "Port Arthur" by Stepanov 2 books, the third "The Zvonarev Family".

      "The Zvonarev Family" also consists of two books.
      With all due respect to Alexander Nikolayevich as an author, his novel is completely unsuitable as a historical source and is replete with inaccuracies, and sometimes directly contradicts the facts.
  8. +3
    17 November 2022 11: 36
    Absolutely true conclusion. The superior Japanese medium-caliber artillery, with high-explosive shells, disabled the fire control systems of Russian large guns and caused significant damage to the unarmored and lightly armored parts of the battleships.
    The same thing happened in World War II with the American battleship South Dakota under fire from Japanese cruisers.
    This is the loss of firepower and mobility without breaking through the main armor.
  9. +2
    18 November 2022 21: 17
    Interesting article! The French saw the action of medium artillery, and the British, on the contrary, saw its small effect and large dispersion at long distances, and ... They built a dreadnought! And the battle in the Yellow Sea confirmed the uselessness of medium artillery against modern battleships.
    1. +1
      19 November 2022 15: 18
      The French took hits from Japanese 12-inch shells for hits from the SC. Well, they didn’t know that Japanese shells had incomplete detonation ...
  10. +1
    18 November 2022 21: 21
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    I forgot to add, it seems that the British tried to cover their heads in the Battle of Jutland, but only there was not Rozhdestvensky in front of them.

    Even Vitgeft did not allow crossing t on July 28 with slow-moving Poltava. And Rozhdestvensky is a pure setup, without maneuver.
    1. 0
      21 November 2022 14: 38
      And Togo learned a little.
      If in the Yellow Sea he had a position in front, then he went counter-course and caught up for 4 hours, and finally caught up - and then the Russians themselves turned away.
      That under Tsushima Togo did not carry out such maneuvers.
      Who knows, maybe if Togo didn’t muddy the waters in the Yellow Sea, but immediately covered the column, then 1TE would be sunk
      1. +1
        21 November 2022 14: 54
        Quote: Sergey Zhikharev
        And Togo learned a little.
        If in the Yellow Sea he had a position in front, then he went counter-course and caught up for 4 hours, and finally caught up - and then the Russians themselves turned away.
        That under Tsushima Togo did not carry out such maneuvers.
        Who knows, maybe if Togo didn’t muddy the waters in the Yellow Sea, but immediately covered the column, then 1TE would be sunk

        In the Yellow Sea, Togo had the opportunity, by increasing speed, on parallel courses, to move forward, and turn to the left to cover the head of the squadron, as in Tsushima, (there he turned the course to the right), but Vitgeft did not let him change course.
        1. 0
          23 November 2022 21: 32
          1. This does not change the fact that Togo acted differently.
          2. More about the change of course - just Togo, going in a parallel course, caught up and transferred the Russian squadron.
          3. And if Rozhdestvensky - pure setup, then what is the purpose / meaning of this setup?
          1. 0
            25 November 2022 14: 43
            The meaning of the base? The entire "progressive-liberal" part of society welcomed the victories of Japanese weapons ... Or was there no such thing? Now you won’t get to the bottom of the truth, but it’s clear that it’s a dark matter ...
            1. 0
              27 November 2022 08: 11
              Well, Rozhdestvensky set himself up (he was seriously injured), the liberals rejoice, and the admiral himself is pushed into the background. What benefit does he get from this? Was he (his family) threatened? Did they promise something?
              1. 0
                1 December 2022 20: 16
                It is difficult to say something about this, but people used to be ideological often. Rozhdestvensky himself was very intelligent and educated, especially in terms of artillery, but his actions in battle are discouraging. How? Everyone! Long argument, enough for a whole article.
                1. 0
                  1 December 2022 20: 30
                  So, they put forward an interesting theory, but you can’t tell it.
                  And who's stopping you from writing an article?
                  1. 0
                    1 December 2022 23: 41
                    The lack of time interferes ... Well, in short - a squadron of the latest, "raw" ships mixed with old ones, reached Tsushima without loss. Without bases, without friendly calls to ports for bunkering and rest. This is an indicator of the ability to solve the problems of the organization on the part of the admiral. Knowledge of the tactics of Togo, Semyonov wrote about this. And, did the admiral really not understand the role of the speed of ships in battle? The midshipmen understood (according to Novikov-Priboy), but the admiral did not? And that putting the latest ships of the 1st detachment with slow-moving ships and BBOs in one line is stupid, he, Rozhdestvensky, did not understand? I understood perfectly ... The squadron was originally divided into units according to speed and firepower. If the 1st squadron of Borodino had been free to maneuver from the rest of the squadron, there would have been no total defeat.
                    1. 0
                      2 December 2022 09: 01
                      I don’t understand, but who canceled the French ports?
                      If Rozhdestvensky did not understand about speed, then the newest ships were not in the same line with slow-moving ships, but in the same detachments (for example, Borodino, Navarin, Ushakov and Donskoy) - that would be stupidity.
                      Okay, there is the 1st detachment of Borodino, it is free in speed, can operate in isolation from the squadron, and ...
                      - Both detachments of Togo (battleships and cruisers) are superior in speed - i.e. catching up / running away is problematic.
                      - and in the event of a battle: 4 Russian battleships (Borodino) against 4 Japanese battleships + 8 armored cruisers.
                      1. 0
                        2 December 2022 20: 03
                        And why should the Borodino people run away / catch up? It is enough to maneuver under the cover of main fire of other slow-moving vehicles, for example, leaving their line, and appearing either in the tail or in the head of the column, at different heading angles. Witgeft, having Poltava, was able to maneuver, not allowing crossing tees. The armored cruisers of Togo did not have the firepower that they were credited with. All Borodino and oslyabya received the main damage from 12dm shells.
                      2. 0
                        3 December 2022 14: 56
                        Witgeft, having Poltava, was able to maneuver, not allowing crossing tees.

                        Once again HOW DID Witgeft MANEUVER? Battle of the Yellow Sea: The Japanese were on a countercourse. The Japanese took a counter-course. The Japanese turned around. The Japanese caught up for 4 hours. The Japanese caught up and overtook the Russians.
                        And in Tsushima, the Japanese went counter-course, but now they did not arrange maneuvers.
                        And why should the Borodino people run away / catch up? It is enough to maneuver under the cover of main fire of other slow-moving vehicles, for example, leaving their line, and appearing either in the tail or in the head of the column, at different heading angles.

                        So, the Russians of Borodino, taking advantage of the speed, from the beginning of the column, retreat to its end. Japanese ships give chase and find themselves at the end of the Russian column. But at this time, the Russian Borodino troops are in full swing and again ahead of the Russian squadron. The Japanese turn around and rush to the head of the Russian column. This is repeated for two days, until the Russian squadron arrives in Vladivostok, and the Japanese are dizzy. - Did I understand your idea correctly? Or are the Japanese calmly focusing their fire on the 2nd, and then the 3rd detachment, while the Borodino men are hiding behind the tardigrades?
                        The armored cruisers of Togo did not have the firepower that they were credited with. All Borodino and oslyabya received the main damage from 12dm shells.

                        Here I agree. But still, the battle "battleship versus battleship and 2 armored cruisers" will go in favor of the side that has armored cruisers.
                      3. 0
                        3 December 2022 16: 25
                        This is repeated for two days, until the Russian squadron arrives in Vladivostok, and the Japanese are dizzy. - Did I understand your idea correctly? Or the Japanese calmly focus their fire on the 2nd, and then the 3rd detachment,
                        Yes, that's right))) only while the Yapis are concentrating fire, the 1st detachment can go to the tail or head of the Japanese squadron, also concentrating fire. Everything depended on the planning of a possible battle, but there was no planning ...
                      4. 0
                        3 December 2022 17: 37

                        Let's try to imagine. To start like this?
                        Then the Borodinos go to the right (from the Japanese), and between the Borodinos and Togo, will there be 2 and 3 detachments?
                        ie
                      5. 0
                        4 December 2022 17: 15
                        So. And after the loop of Togo, the Borodino men all of a sudden turn around the column of the 2,3nd and 2,3rd detachments and cut the tail of the kamimure. Can it be so? Asamoids against Borodino, though not for long. And it is possible at an angle, for rapprochement. Togo will either have to turn his head away from the 40nd and 50rd squads, or the kamura will have to twitch somewhere. 20-XNUMX kb is for XNUMX minutes of the Borodino movement, so that, emerging from behind the tail of our column, get close to the kamura. And while Togo makes a decision and brings it to the kamimure, there will be an opportunity to bite the asamoids well.
                      6. 0
                        4 December 2022 19: 44
                        Do not understand.
                        which is closer
                        option 1

                        or
                        option 2
                      7. 0
                        4 December 2022 21: 47
                        Option 1 is closer, but it could not be, Togo turned earlier, on a parallel course. That is, according to my thoughts, the 1st option, but the Borodino people are behind the stern of Oleg, and Togo is in the head of a donkey.
                      8. 0
                        5 December 2022 09: 06
                        That is, according to my thoughts, the 1st option, but the Borodino people are behind the stern of Oleg, and Togo is in the head of a donkey.

                        So?
                        Does Togo cross T (2) or counter-course (3)?
                      9. 0
                        5 December 2022 21: 23
                        Togo, after turning, sequentially, lay down on a parallel course, and moved a little ahead of our squadron, as it was in real life, concentrating the fire of battleships and Italians on Suvorov. If the 1st detachment followed Oleg on the right, at this time, then the fire would be concentrated on the donkey, as happened at the beginning of the battle, during the rebuilding of our two columns into one. But if at that time the Borodino men had passed behind Oleg's stern, they could have gone into the tail of the kamimura. You have 1 yapi in the scheme before the turn, and then they changed places, in the head of Togo, in the tail of the kamimura. The Borodino people could try to put the kamimura in two fires. It is clear that another maneuver would have started in connection with this, but it would have been another battle. Borodinians could circle around their main column, covering themselves with fire and coming into direct fire contact, after the next rebuilding of that. That is, slow-moving fire group, Borodino maneuverable.
                        Another thing is that the headquarters with Rozhestvensky should have thought it over, and not us on the couch ... And draw up a system of interaction for at least several proposed options for meeting with the Yaps. With clear instructions from the commander of ships and detachments.
                      10. 0
                        6 December 2022 07: 23
                        1. Maneuverable wing, these are usually light / fast ships, and slow-moving ships are protected. The same invisibles had to maneuver, and battleships to fight.
                        2. You propose to send the most protected ships into maneuver (Borodino) by substituting under fire, or rather under slaughter, slow-moving ships at the cost of hitting Kamimure cruisers.
                        3, perhaps, taking into account the afterthought, is suitable (we are not losing outright), but as a plan for the upcoming battle - no.
                      11. 0
                        6 December 2022 16: 07
                        Taking into account, of course, the afterthought, everything is fine! With that result, tsushima. Also: in the absence of a secretary, they use a maid, there were no invincibles, so at least some kind of replacement, and with good combat stability. Well, I would have gouged Togo Sisoy, Nikolai and Navarin. The Borodino people could ruffle the kamimura and make fire contact with Togo while he was pounding the sluggards. Sisoy and navarin are not so simple nuts, although they are old ones.
                      12. 0
                        6 December 2022 21: 21
                        but Rozhdestvensky did not have an afterthought
                        And your desire to use a maid is not a good idea. Either you separate the Borodino people from the 2TE, then you deprive the Borodino people of 2 TE. You calmly send the 2nd detachment to the slaughter (while the Borodino residents hid behind the "Oleg"), not seeing anything wrong with that.
                        Sisoy and Navarin were hard nuts for the reason that they were not particularly shot at. And that was enough for Sisoy.
                      13. 0
                        6 December 2022 23: 44
                        The 2nd detachment is not for slaughter, but for 20 minutes of battle, to bypass its column on counter courses. Rozhdestvensky started rebuilding from two columns into one, in fact putting the donkey to the execution of Togo. Do not stop the oslyabya move, Togo would not have thrown him so much. And instead of rebuilding in one column, the Borodino troops could turn all of a sudden, having the head eagle bypass the squadron from the stern and go out cutting off the tail of the kamimure. Any maneuvers of the squadron are better than the whole formation of 9 knots in one course.
                      14. +1
                        9 December 2022 23: 48
                        Well, yes, put the 2nd squad under execution, lose two battleships with 305-mm artillery, at the cost of hitting armored cruisers ....
                        "Oslyaba" had enough 3 shells. "Peresvet" and "Victory" received much more ...
                        Why maneuver at all? Battle in the Yellow Sea - 4 hours of battle, and nothing. And now some maneuvers, given that the squadron went around half the world
                      15. +1
                        11 December 2022 10: 15
                        Well, in principle, you are right, about 4 hours of battle in the Yellow Sea ... Semyonov recalled that he had prepared a notebook and a pencil to record hits ... And when they rained down in hail, there was no longer any talk of recording. And yes, the oslyabya was built very obscenely, in comparison with overexposure, a completely different quality, different factories.
                        All the same, the 9-knot squadron does not give rest, the calves for slaughter ... I don’t remember one of the Yaps recalled how they feared the upcoming battle, remembering how the crown prince was hollowed out, with all battleships and almost to no avail. And here four "improved crown princes" were very disturbing.
                      16. 0
                        2 December 2022 20: 07
                        If Rozhdestvensky did not understand about speed, then the newest ships would not stand in the same line with slow-moving ships, but in the same detachments

                        So this is what I said. And the Tsushima battle itself is very strange, no matter what they say.
  11. 0
    27 January 2023 21: 17
    In general, the French had an interesting discussion. Optimization of salvo weight per minute and the effectiveness of its components is an important point in design.
  12. +1
    28 January 2023 09: 27
    Quote: Region-25.rus
    Thanks to the author, but ... "Good! But not enough!" hi

    Agree! Write more. drinks