Military Review

Which barrel is more accurate - fixed or movable

59
Which barrel is more accurate - fixed or movable

I’ll make a reservation right away that only the accuracy of firing a pistol from the hands is of interest, which system shows from the vise is unimportant, since no one shoots from the vise, except when checking the quality of cartridges. It is a common misconception that a pistol with a barrel fixed to the frame is more accurate than with a movable one, for example, with a short-stroke lowering locking, that is, variations of the Browning scheme.


To begin with, what is the accuracy of the gun itself? In addition to serviceability as such, this is the ability of the mechanism to occupy the same position before the shot, and move in the same way during the shot itself until the bullet leaves the barrel.

First of all, consider the Colt-Browning M111, which has been produced for 1911 years. How do its parts behave before the shot?

The magazine spring, through the cartridges, presses on the bolt from the bottom up, choosing the vertical backlash of the bolt and barrel. The return spring through the guide (shown by the red arrow in the diagram) presses the barrel up and back with its rear end, feeding the barrel back and up, and pushes the bolt forward with its front end, choosing backlashes forward. Since the barrel and the hole in the sleeve are round, the mutual pressure of these parts aligns the parts of the pistol in the transverse plane as well.

Thus, in a serviceable pistol, before firing, the position of all its parts turns out to be completely uniform, I mean the position of the barrel, the bolt with the front sight and the entire frame.


Since the mutual position of the sight and the barrel are uniform, then the accuracy of fire will be achieved.

What happens when a shot is fired? While the bullet moves along the barrel, it, together with the bolt, moves backward in a straight line and uniformly, practically without transferring momentum to the frame, and therefore without causing it to rotate relative to the center of mass of the pistol.

In pistols with a rigidly fixed barrel, the kinematics are similar. The magazine spring also presses upward, choosing the backlash of the shutter relative to the frame, and the return spring presses forward, choosing the axial one. But here's the lateral...

If the spring is on the barrel, then the point of application of the pressure of the end of the spring to the bolt will either be simply random, or will change from shot to shot due to the rotation of the spring around the barrel, which often happens with springs on the rail. This can cause lateral play, if you're lucky. Moreover, it is quite possible that the shutter will not only be rejected with one end to the side, but will stand “diagonally” within the gaps of the guides, which will give the greatest deviation of the bullets.

When fired, the movement of the bolt back does not affect the position of the frame and the barrel, so here, in principle, equality. But here the aiming error generated by the skew of the shutter, in a scheme with a fixed barrel and a spring on it, is potentially greater.

An interesting example from the past is the Margolin pistol, which has a front sight on the barrel and a rear sight on the "bridge". This decision was more than justified for a pistol developed in 1940 - the quality of the machines, the skills of the workers, the incomplete secondary education of the majority of users and workers, and other factors required the design of a pistol with large backlashes and gaps, which, if heavily clogged, could affect accuracy if the springs could no longer align the shutter with respect to the frame.

Indeed, "margolin" can shoot in the hands of juniors with an extreme degree of pollution. But 80 years after the creation of the MCM, machines and tools have become more accurate, and secondary education has become the norm, so a modern pistol does not need to be required to have such gaps and backlashes that were in this sample.

The only reason for the use of a fixed barrel in our time can only be the designer's desire to minimize the height of the pistol frame, since there is no need for free space for the breech to move down, and the axis along which this movement will occur.

Of course, you can place a copy groove on the sides of the breech, but this decision will make the frame of the pistol a little wider, which is not always justified, but such a solution suggests itself with a two-row exit of cartridges to the chambering line, in which the shutter width is still determined by the store.

Another way to compact the frame in height is the rotation of the barrel, which was successfully applied in the GSh-18.
Author:
59 comments
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  1. Amateur
    Amateur 12 November 2022 06: 18
    +13
    and secondary education is the norm, therefore, a modern pistol does not need to be required to have such gaps and backlashes,

    Determining the accuracy of shooting and the ability to clean weapons after shooting by the level of education is "VASH"!
    Interestingly, are there people who doubt the term "female logic"? feel
    ps Note to the author: The Margolin MTs pistol was SPECIALLY designed for sports shooting at a distance of 25 meters. It is to ensure high accuracy that he has such specific sights.
    psII If Margolin is not cleaned (or the cartridges from the box are not wiped from the gun lubricant), then a thick layer of lubricant forms between the end of the barrel and the end of the bolt, due to which the bolt does not press tightly against the barrel and the gun simply does not shoot (from personal experience).
  2. Bingo
    Bingo 12 November 2022 06: 48
    +7
    It's nice to read a weapon lover. and a knowledgeable author in it))
    But only 5 kopecks, already in the 80s, Margolin, even with all the bells and whistles such as individual handles, weights and tepe - was rapidly moving away from the main weapon of the bullet guns ... But it’s unlikely that anyone will convince me that the pistol of the "great blind" (yeah, blind Margolin was) - not the best weapon for beginners to this day. And not only because of the manufacturability and price, but also because of the Arc de Triomphe, the rear sight with adjustment on the platform wink Under yourself. And yet, when shooting, the backlashes change, and the Arc de Triomphe stands still both at the first shot and on the barrel, shattered into firewood.

    For the army, other things are important, and no one will shoot like in a shooting range in battle ... And the cops, who often don’t hit the shield from 25 meters from Makar, how many I have seen of them, they can generally cut off a fly wink
    In general, with sporting weapons we have a complete ... Delight ...
    https://shooting-ua.com/books/book_1.htm
    1. Andy_nsk
      Andy_nsk 12 November 2022 07: 40
      +1
      and secondary education is the norm, so a modern pistol does not need to be required to have such gaps and backlashes

      I would also not associate the quality of manufacturing weapons with the education of workers, rather we should talk about the accuracy characteristics of machine tools, our company now mainly has American CNC machining centers, of course, the accuracy of processing and the quality of the surfaces being machined are incomparable with the machines on which ours worked. industry 30...40 years ago. I don’t know what machines manufacturers of small arms currently have, I hope that it’s not worse, which means that other pistol designs are needed, with much tighter tolerances, which, obviously, will increase shooting accuracy. Although I had to learn how to shoot from both Margolin and PM, I don’t consider myself an expert in weapons, but based on at least knowledge of Newton’s laws, I think it’s easier to increase the accuracy of shooting from a pistol with a moving barrel if you ensure minimal clearances and backlashes , because in this case it is easier to hold the gun.
      1. Bingo
        Bingo 12 November 2022 08: 03
        +4
        Quote from Andy_nsk
        I would also not associate the quality of the manufacture of weapons with the education of workers; rather, we should talk about the accuracy of the machine tools

        No, in the days of Margolin, it was precisely the rural mentality that was the scourge ... It’s not like the “Intruder” from Chekhov, who turned nuts from the railroad on the sinker, but just a misunderstanding, damn it, the drums need to be suitable for all PPSh - there, this one fits, and this one fits - what do you need, why do you need another one, from someone else's kit? It was precisely this that caused the jambs - yes, give any CNC machine, the culture of production is not only made up of tools, but it was not
        1. Andy_nsk
          Andy_nsk 12 November 2022 09: 35
          +2
          No, in the days of Margolin, it was precisely the rural mentality that was the scourge ...

          I will not dispute that it is possible to take a person out of a collective farm, but to take a collective farm out of a person is much more difficult ... workers can be minimized, for example, by timely detection of marriage due to exceeding the tolerance for workpieces. The advantage of CNC machines, I would also include a good repeatability of the dimensions of parts, which does not depend on jumps in the head of the machine operator. And yes, of course, machine operators with a secondary technical education are now mainly working on CNC.
          1. sibiryouk
            sibiryouk 12 November 2022 17: 45
            +4
            At our enterprise, those who got a job work on CNC machines, there are people with higher education, but more with secondary, secondary special education. New CNC machines have control systems based on a dialogue with the worker (the system requests a certain set of part parameters and, based on this information, the machine computer itself composes a control program) - so higher education is no longer needed.
            1. Andy_nsk
              Andy_nsk 12 November 2022 17: 56
              +3
              This, apparently, is for simple details ... For more complex details, you cannot make a program in the interactive mode. We CNC process complex body parts with hundreds of sizes. They take as a basis a drawing in electronic form, developed by designers, and convert it with a special program. And machine operators really do not need higher education, there is enough secondary technical education.
        2. Alexfly
          Alexfly 16 November 2022 13: 27
          0
          If the standards are not met, then what kind of production culture are we talking about? Most likely there was no standardization in equipment and control ..
    2. Eule
      12 November 2022 10: 13
      +6
      A 25m miss on the shield is a sign of someone's inability to learn to shoot, a lack of a quality coach, enough ammunition, time and motivation to learn shooting, and the shortcomings of the PM in the second place. N.F. Makarov was a talented person, and did what was asked under the terms of the competition - a minimum of parts that were difficult to process, to the requirements of disassembly without a tool for decontamination from radioactive substances. At the same time, no one imagined that the officer would live long in a big war. Another thing is that for reasons unknown officially, the United States, having superiority in high-altitude bombers, could not attack the USSR, and there was no big war.
      Because of this feature, there are few intricate details, the PM has the "character" of each instance, as the shooters of the army team put it.
      Quote from Bingo
      with sporting weapons we have a complete ... Delight ...

      The material was written by Yefim Leontievich at my request back in 2003, for the magazine "Arms" and the newspaper "Five Okhots", I wanted to post it here, but it turned out that someone had already scanned the newspaper and posted it somewhere, so publication here is impossible.
      1. Bingo
        Bingo 12 November 2022 10: 36
        +1
        a sign of someone's inability to learn to shoot

        I agree, so I didn’t talk about the shortcomings of the PM ... Although it’s a very highly specialized barrel, and IMHO, it’s not army at all. I don’t know about the character, somehow it didn’t happen to shoot from the same barrel for a long time, but if there is such a thing, this is a violation of the principle of uniformity of weapons, this is acceptable in individual shooting sports, but not in army weapons, and in the police for the same reason should not be allowed.
        And so, IMHO, a barrel for combat at super-short distances and with such a weight distribution and jerking after a shot - in the same place, even the now fashionable dvoechka will not come out at one point. Pure sharpening for a stopping effect, I remember being terribly surprised when I saw that in the shooting gallery in the beams, well, behind the shields, bullets from small things, lead, often go deeper into the tree than Makarov's ... I say that I saw, not what they write .. .
        1. Alexfly
          Alexfly 16 November 2022 13: 37
          -1
          the Luger cartridge and the PM are almost the same, i.e. they could be equally powerful, but the bullet in the PM sleeve sits really deep ... With PMa 10-15 meters you can hit very well ... The Czechs made it under the reinforced ChZ-82/83 cartridge ..
      2. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 12 November 2022 13: 09
        +4
        Another thing is that for reasons unknown officially, the United States, having superiority in high-altitude bombers, could not attack the USSR, and there was no big war.
        The reasons are well known. In the early 50s, strategic bombers were the only carrier of nuclear weapons, and the Korean War then showed that they had very little chance of reaching their designated targets on the territory of the USSR - MiG-15s knocked them down in batches. At the same time, our troops were able to occupy Western Europe quickly enough.
      3. Alexfly
        Alexfly 16 November 2022 13: 31
        0
        You are right, most likely the problem is in the gasket .... Between the weapon and the shooter .. Shooting 100-200 rounds a week, you are more likely to learn how to shoot than 16 rounds a year ... Makarov's aiming devices want to have the best, but it's not that important if you know how to use it ..
  3. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 12 November 2022 06: 52
    +5
    In my opinion, this is such a far-fetched problem that it is already strange. And taking into account the fact that the fixed barrels of pistols are mainly combined with a free shutter, which means a relatively weak cartridge ...
  4. evgen1221
    evgen1221 12 November 2022 07: 06
    0
    The principle of a firearm with the expulsion of a projectile by the detonation of gunpowder in a sleeve has simply exhausted itself in terms of increasing the accuracy of the hit. A fundamentally different source of energy is needed to push the projectile out of the barrel. The current firearm is simply at the limit of its capabilities.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 12 November 2022 13: 11
      +6
      with the expulsion of the projectile by the detonation of gunpowder in the sleeve
      Gunpowder burns in the case, but does not detonate. When detonated, the shutter will simply break.
  5. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 12 November 2022 07: 14
    +2
    And how does the heating of the barrel during frequent shooting affect accuracy, the movement of a bullet in the barrel, and the mechanisms of the pistol as a whole?
    At what barrel temperature does shooting make no sense?
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 November 2022 11: 00
      +3
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      And how does the heating of the barrel during frequent shooting affect accuracy, the movement of a bullet in the barrel, and the mechanisms of the pistol as a whole?
      At what barrel temperature does shooting make no sense?

      Alexey good afternoon!
      I will answer briefly, though without numbers. Yes, it does. Athletes warm up their trunks before the competition.
      In the rest of life, not like, PMs are not killed in principle. He can shoot even with a hole in the barrel. And without losing the function of automation and even hit. True muzzle flame in the side like a machine gun.
  6. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 November 2022 08: 16
    +12
    I do not like to criticize Authors, especially women, but:
    First, the topic is not open. The answer is obvious - a fixed barrel will always be "in terms of accuracy, better results than a movable one." True, all this, for practical shooting "tinsel". In a combat situation, the "difference" is not fundamental, shooting from short-barreled weapons at 100 meters is already extreme.
    The second - Margolin, like all Soviet weapons, is unpretentious and omnivorous, but ... this is primarily a sports weapon for initial training. Today's sights for old Margolins will be upgraded. However, shooting from a polished Margolin is ... I’d better keep silent. Its task is to withstand the daily training cycle without cleaning. This is up to 300 rounds.
    From my own experience I will say that I personally encountered delays in shooting from Margolin 3 times, from PM - 1 time. I fired from Margolin only in my first year in the second semester in 1996. From PM - 27 years.
    The third - apparently the most important in the third paragraph! I will answer with one thesis. The most important thing for a short-barreled weapon is its reliability with the ability to confidently hit manpower at a distance of 50 meters. For a “confident user of this disgrace”, he would not refuse a 12-round magazine and demanded the most simplified design for cleaning and caring for it. All point.
    The fourth and last - practical application in life is in the shortest time of 10-12 seconds, confidently hit a sheet of A4 paper at a distance of 20 meters.
    Sincerely, Kote (former cop - as the comrade put it above). Although the former does not happen.
    1. Bingo
      Bingo 12 November 2022 09: 43
      +1
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Sincerely, Kote (former cop

      So yours should be smart and aim differently, the athlete should focus on aiming, the target should be out of focus, gray wink And the police Eram is just the opposite - on the target.
      Which, by the way, says that you need to change your standards ...
      PiSi: well, what the heck to do, if they really often smear not even past the end zone, but past the shield - you really need to shoot with your eyes closed...
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 November 2022 10: 52
        +5
        No, these standards in the Ministry of Internal Affairs are completely objective. Aimed at the speed of using weapons from a distance of 10 meters. The affected area is a sheet of A-4 format.
        Regarding smearing, I was personally present when the world champions in bullet shooting smeared from 15 meters. Moreover, they did not blame each other - they sorted out the mistakes and trained further.
        Considering that employees shoot 50-100 rounds a year on average. There will always be mistakes.
        The situation can be corrected if each police department has its own shooting range, the procedure for obtaining and training will be simplified. Plus motivation, then everything will work out.
        By the way, the situation at the firing line today is better than yesterday, although there is something to strive for.
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 12 November 2022 11: 18
        +4
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        The answer is obvious - a fixed barrel will always be "in terms of accuracy, better results than a movable one."
        Not at all obvious. After all, the article immediately states not to consider the option when the gun is clamped in a vice. And if you shoot with your hands, then what do we get:
        when the barrel is stationary, the barrel begins to lift up immediately after the shot, with a short barrel stroke, after the shot, the barrel moves back for some time and the effort to lift the barrel is more extended in time.
        PS
        the option is considered when two pistols with different principles of operation of automation have the same location of the barrel relative to the center of mass and the same grip of the hand.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 November 2022 12: 43
          +2
          How to put it mildly. Subjectively, revolvers are more accurate than pistols.
          The author wrote about pistols, and they either have a movable bolt or barrel (other options are rare, so there is no point in considering them). With a short stroke of the barrel, the barrel is shifted to the rearmost position, otherwise the shutter. In the first case, the trunk is more prone to fluctuations than in the second. By the way, the barrel lifts in both cases the same way. However, for practical shooting, the difference of 1-2 minutes of arc is not fundamental.
    2. Zufei
      Zufei 12 November 2022 09: 56
      +2
      PMM - 12 pcs. no ammo?
      Is the modern Gong exercise closer to the real scenario than the academic bullseye?
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 November 2022 10: 55
        +1
        Quote: Zufei
        PMM - 12 pcs. no ammo?
        Is the modern Gong exercise closer to the real scenario than the academic bullseye?

        PMM in the territorial departments is only a few thousand.
        According to the gong - here there are problems with ordinary bullet catchers, but here for a long time it will change the exercises (increase the distance due to the recochet) and modernize the Taurus. Expensive.
        1. Zufei
          Zufei 12 November 2022 11: 00
          +1
          Is the survivor's pension cheaper?
          We now focus on putting as many bullets as possible in the outline of the silhouette in time.
        2. Alexfly
          Alexfly 16 November 2022 13: 52
          0
          Expensive? Excuses, google on the internet and you will find, any blacksmith will forge for a small fraction ..
    3. Daddy pig
      Daddy pig 12 November 2022 11: 45
      +3
      Finally, a sound, clear and reasonable requirement for the practical performance characteristics of a pistol! And then they begin to compose about all sorts of arc valves and pneumatic buffers.
      Maximum reliability, compactness, magazine for 12-15 rounds. Preferably less weight. The ability to send bullets in a circle of 30x30 cm at a distance of 10-15m (even 20 is already extreme). ALL!
      The perfect pistol is ready)
      And there are already quite a few of them.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 November 2022 12: 56
        +3
        Probably still not perfect.
        I can only answer for the police. In the internal affairs bodies, there are three modifications of one pistol model.
        1. For employees of the PPSP, traffic police and duty units. Magazine with a capacity of 14-16 rounds, the ability of the cartridge to hit manpower behind vehicles with personal protective equipment up to class 3 with a minimum ricochet. Compactness is not essential. Sighting range 50 meters.
        2. For operational services. Cartridge with maximum stopping power with minimum ricochet. Shop 12-14 rounds. The most important thing is compactness and the possibility of hidden wearing. Sighting range 25 meters.
        3. For office workers. Shop 8-12 rounds. Effective range 25. Revealed worldwide for ease of maintenance and weight. Since almost 50% of the internal service and justice are girls.
        1. frog
          frog 12 November 2022 19: 11
          +1
          Purely IMHO, from an ottoman)))....
          The three models you listed cover almost the entire range of tasks. There is no point in even arguing here. But what about three modifications of one barrel .... At least two different types of ammunition and yet, again, IMHO)), put barrels 1 and others in one bed ..... Not a trivial task. If the second and third can still be crossed in a couple of modifications, in general, of the same design, then here is the first ....
          But almost all the needs are really described)). Why merci hi . And yet, IMHO, for the tasks of a conventionally conventional army pistol, it’s the same .... Unless (for the sake of optimization)) the third type can be .... optimized. Although now there are plenty of young ladies ...
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 November 2022 05: 37
            0
            Thank you for rating.
            There is no need to invent an exclusive for the internal affairs bodies. The first type of pistol (PPSP, DPS, DCH, UUP) should have a longer barrel and a magazine for more rounds. Ammunition dosiatochno differ core. For example, for UUP, a soft bullet is relevant, for DPS with a core.
            And I'll write again. The gun should be as simple as Makarov, as half of the employees are girls.
            1. Bingo
              Bingo 13 November 2022 07: 46
              0
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              The first type of pistol (PPSP, DPS

              Isn't it more logical to shorten it? And the pistol is just like a weapon of self-defense, without the requirement to break through the Kamaz engine right through - you yourself understand that no core of a 9 by 21 bullet will help, and even 9 by 18 ...
              On the plus side, you don’t have to make a mix of barrels and cartridges, and cartridges are cheaper than with a core
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 13 November 2022 08: 40
                +1
                There are other weapons for hitting a vehicle's engine.
                Enough, confident defeat for 5mm iron.
        2. Alexfly
          Alexfly 16 November 2022 13: 55
          +2
          And why did the teaching staff refuse the Glock USSR-GSh-18? Just right, easy, 15 clogs without effort, breaks through a lot ..
    4. Alexfly
      Alexfly 16 November 2022 13: 47
      +1
      Well, how does it turn out to hit an A4 sheet at 20 meters from three shots?
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 16 November 2022 17: 55
        0
        Quote: AlexFly
        Well, how does it turn out to hit an A4 sheet at 20 meters from three shots?

        Correct with - 10. To be honest, in different ways.
        Speed ​​exercise. So here are your moments.
        1. Alexfly
          Alexfly 16 November 2022 19: 30
          +2
          Therefore, the question is .... The difference is small which pistol, the difference is how well you use it .... if a thousand or two a year, then it’s not bad .. I wish all the security forces to shoot at least as much ..
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 November 2022 04: 16
            0
            I wrote about the fact that there is no difference in my first comment on the article.
            hi
  7. Nephilim
    Nephilim 12 November 2022 09: 25
    +5
    An epigraph by an unknown thinker would fit such articles: "I have a thought and I think it."
    Obviously, subconsciously, the author set the task of highlighting the influence of angular oscillations and deformations of the moving parts of pistols on deviations of the angle of throw from the angle of elevation, causing the scattering phenomenon.
    Given that the problem was posed by the author within the framework of a one-dimensional model of elastic dynamics, it was possible to use the finite-difference approach or the Fourier separation method to solve it.
    However, the author went the wrong way - he began to compare military and sporting weapons, so the topic could not be opened.
    For the future, if the author wants to reveal the influence of all parts of the pistol and design schemes on the accuracy of shooting, it is worth using three-dimensional modeling. You can use, for example, Ansys LS-DYNA.
    1. Andy_nsk
      Andy_nsk 12 November 2022 10: 19
      +3
      Given that the problem was posed by the author within the framework of a one-dimensional model of elastic dynamics, it was possible to use the finite-difference approach or the Fourier separation method to solve it.

      Like a joke? It is somehow difficult for me to link the Fourier separation method, which is used to solve the heat transfer equations, to what is written above.
      1. Nephilim
        Nephilim 12 November 2022 15: 26
        +1
        It is somehow difficult for me to link the Fourier separation method, which is used to solve the heat transfer equations, to what is written above.

        This is because you do not have the necessary knowledge. Solving the heat transfer equation is just a special case of using the Fourier method, which is one of the most common and effective methods for solving partial differential equations. This method is often found under other names: the method of separation of variables or the method of eigenfunctions.
        Therefore, if you mathematically model, for example, oscillations of a shaft of variable cross section in an elastic setting in a one-dimensional approximation, then the corresponding differential equations can be solved, for example, by the Fourier method, or by the method of finite elements or finite differences.
        1. Andy_nsk
          Andy_nsk 12 November 2022 15: 44
          +1
          differential equations can be solved, for example, by the Fourier method, or by the finite element or finite difference method.

          I myself am not fond of diffusers, there are enough other worries, but colleagues from the Russian Academy of Sciences constantly have fun (they calculate EMF in a conducting medium), although they use the finite element method more and more, it is well developed for computers, you don’t have to strain your brains much.
          1. Nephilim
            Nephilim 12 November 2022 16: 04
            0
            I don't do differential equations at all. This is all the remnants of the knowledge of the institute course of higher mathematics and the theory of elasticity.
  8. traper
    traper 12 November 2022 11: 06
    +2
    A pistol, a normal officer, in a war is usually needed in two cases:
    1. shoot the alarmist;
    2. shoot yourself.
    Thus, Nagant and TT and PM, and any capsule of the 19th century, will fit. So why waste money. laughing
  9. decimalegio
    decimalegio 12 November 2022 13: 18
    0
    Theoretically, a fixed rod is better than a movable one. But if both guns are state-of-the-art and may have fired after being locked in a vise, how much difference in accuracy can there be???? It is understood that we are talking about pistols for sports shooting. For military weapons, it makes no sense to discuss it.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 13 November 2022 12: 20
      0
      Quote: Decimalegio
      Theoretically, a fixed rod is better than a movable one.

      And practically, besides the barrel, there are a lot of moving elements ....
      1. decimalegio
        decimalegio 14 November 2022 14: 48
        0
        I agree, but I took it for granted, since it was about semi-automatic pistols hi
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 15 November 2022 07: 23
          0
          And I mean, it all depends on the specific design. smile
  10. Mikhail Ya2
    Mikhail Ya2 12 November 2022 13: 47
    +1
    Strange comparison. Free shutter fits a maximum of 9X18 cartridges. The most common 9X19 cartridges in the world will simply break the frame. Even if a fixed barrel had an advantage, it is still irrelevant with 9X19. In addition, in the Berettas, the barrel is rotating or with a larva like on the P38, it is stationary in the horizontal plane, but they do not show any improvement in accuracy compared to the Browning system, with a lower barrel
    1. Alexfly
      Alexfly 17 November 2022 12: 04
      0
      9x20 for Browning 1903 with a blowback .. They say that the pistol was excellent, with a long barrel as much as 128 mm. A little later, parabellum appeared .. and with it Luger .. In Berettas, the barrel is based on the principle of Walter with a swinging larva .. at that time they were more accurate than Browning .. now the accuracy of production has changed .... Even the Chinese make chic copies ..
      1. Mikhail Ya2
        Mikhail Ya2 17 November 2022 12: 34
        0
        Beretta also has a Storm PX4 with a barrel that rotates around its axis. He is not noticed by any special accuracy.
        1. Alexfly
          Alexfly 18 November 2022 12: 06
          0
          This is a fairly new feature and, judging by the reviews, it is quite accurate at short distances. You should not expect special accuracy from short barrels at 25 meters and above ..
          1. Mikhail Ya2
            Mikhail Ya2 18 November 2022 14: 42
            0
            That's what it's about. No need to complicate the system to improve accuracy. At those distances for which the COP is needed, super accuracy is not needed. And the Beretta Storm PX4 isn't all that new. And before it there was a model 9000 with the same locking. But the Browning locking system, with a lower barrel, is the simplest and should not be complicated.
  11. acetophenone
    acetophenone 13 November 2022 08: 00
    0
    There are no numbers. What a spread on what design from a vice and from a hand. And so ... reasoning on the topic, they say, if Nikanor Ivanovich's lips were put to Ivan Kuzmich's nose, and take some swagger, which Baltazar Baltazarych is not particularly ... mmm ... well, there is no question of productivity. They don't particularly inspire.
  12. YOUR
    YOUR 13 November 2022 12: 17
    +2
    Which pistol is more accurate with a moving barrel or not? What difference does it make if the recoil momentum comes after the bullet has left the barrel.
    1. 28st region
      28st region 13 November 2022 16: 08
      +1
      That's it. More precisely, the pistol with better ergonomics, it is more convenient to aim, there are still a lot of conditions, but not from the operation of its mechanism
      1. Alexfly
        Alexfly 19 November 2022 14: 52
        0
        More precisely, only the pistol whose owner shoots a lot from it .... If you were given a pistol and you fired from it a dozen or two times, it doesn’t mean anything whether the pistol is accurate or not. Ergonomics will definitely improve results, provided you shoot a lot and regularly..
  13. cpls22
    cpls22 13 November 2022 23: 07
    0
    But it’s interesting - if the rotation of the bullet stabilizes it in flight, won’t the rotation of the barrel stabilize it when fired?
    As far as I understand, the article compared two different factors for dispersion when shooting -
    1. oscillation of the weapon along with the barrel in the soft tissues of the hand due to the mismatch between the center of gravity of the weapon and the axis of the barrel, combined with fuzzy contact between the sights and the barrel (which is debatable).
    2. oscillation of the barrel when fired, not related to its rotation relative to the center of gravity of the entire system, with a clear contact between the sights and the barrel at the time of the shot (again, it is doubtful that this affects anything).
    The preference was given to the last option, but is there any experimental data confirming this? When shooting from hand, such statistics are unlikely to be obtained, in my opinion.
  14. el_soldado
    el_soldado 14 November 2022 11: 59
    0
    what a fairy tale
    in the army M1911, the muzzle of the barrel can hang out in the clutch quite noticeably, but this is not a drum for a military pistol.
    Well, the comparison of small things and a pistol under a full-fledged central battle cartridge is a little funny