"Shaheds" over Russia: how to deal with them

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"Shaheds" over Russia: how to deal with them

To begin with, the authors had no doubt that sooner or later (but rather sooner) “greetings” from Ukraine would fly towards Russia. And what happened in Sevastopol confirmed this, so now it is worth working out this issue even deeper.

Now, when materials have surfaced that Iranian developments in the field of UAVs are based on Ukrainian materials transferred in circumvention of all the sanctions imposed on Iran, which is also not in doubt, since Ukrainians will sell anything for the appropriate money, somehow one has to doubt that Ukrainian engineers will be able to use their Shaheda, which in the last article ( link) we called it "Periwinkle".



Ukrainians will be able to, and Europe will help them once again. The Germans will no doubt give the engines from which the Chinese and Iranians copied their engines for UAVs. Air defense systems and howitzers give, and such a trifle ...


So it will fly to us, there is no doubt. And it will obviously fly further than the cities of the Kursk and Belgorod regions, fortunately, there are targets and fatter. We here at home understand that a drone bomb capable of flying along the coordinates of 400 km - and we have it with a guarantee, because there are about 300 km from the border to the center of Voronezh.

And here a question that is essentially difficult arises: how to detect this muck, given that the only thing that can give at least some clue is an engine 30x30x40 cm in size with a corresponding thermal image?


In the photo you can understand the dimensions of the same Limbach L550E, the ancestor of Iranian and Chinese engines for drones.

Radar station. Very difficult. Plastic and a minimum of metal in the design of the UAV make it virtually invisible in the radio range. Of course, with a clear beam hit, the engine will give an answer, but here is the question of the selective sensitivity of the radar, which can easily take such a weak signal for interference. Moreover, there is more than enough interference during the operation of the radar.

visual observation. It is good only in the final phase of the flight of the strike UAV, when it descends when approaching the target. As the practice of Ukraine shows, it is useless to shoot at a drone at this moment, since even if it is shot down, it causes decent damage to civilian infrastructure located in the vicinity of the target.

And for almost the entire flight, the UAV goes at a height inaccessible to visual detection. Of course, if you use strong optics and great luck, you will be able to detect it, in much the same way you can detect a flying device from a helicopter and an airplane. But the probability is extremely small.

Thermal imager. It is more interesting here, because the air at an altitude of 2-4 thousand meters is colder than near the ground and the thermal imaging picture can be quite clear. The issue of sensitivity and range of the thermal imager.


The ones that stand on tanks and helicopters, in principle, can illuminate UAVs, the question is probably at what distance they can confidently do this. We think about a kilometer, no more. Everything will really depend on the temperature and humidity of the air.

Naturally, we are talking about stationary systems placed on mobile platforms (car, helicopter, armored base) with forced cooling of the matrix. But even such a system cannot work continuously, it requires a shutdown for 1 hour for every 6 hours of operation. In addition, such a thermal imager cannot be brought into combat mode instantly, it takes 8-10 minutes to “warm up”.

It turns out that the thermal imager is good as an accurate guidance system at close range. But we have a question about how to detect drones not at close range, when you can only shoot from a personal weapons, but on the way.

And here in our heads (three at once, which excludes the option of clouding our minds), a plan was born, according to which it is worth looking back into the experience of the Second World War.


Yes, VNOS. The same system of air surveillance, warning and communications, which worked quite successfully in the initial period of the Great Patriotic War in terms of combating Luftwaffe raids.

Go to history, without it in any way.

The main element of the VNOS service, regardless of its combat use, was the NP, an observation post, the calculation of which consisted of seven people: a commander, a deputy and several observers. Before the advent of the radar, binoculars served as technical means of observation and ... yes, we hinted about this. Sound pickups.

After all, judge for yourself, the design of the UAV has reached the point that it is really difficult to detect it with either a radar or a thermal imager. But no one canceled the sound of a running engine! Yes, this is not the same engine as those on the Junkers, but when it works, it makes a sound that, by the way, is easy to identify. "Moped".

And modern means of capturing sound, as it were, slightly completely, but ahead of the technique of almost a century ago. There is something to push off.

The modern VNOS post will definitely differ from the one a century ago. Then all the armament of the post consisted of a sound detector and a semi-electronic corrector, which made it possible to process the received sound signal and issue some settings based on the received data.

In general, with the help of these mouthpieces and boxes with indicators, the fighters of the VNOS post could perform miracles, which were called combat duties:

- detection of aircraft in the sky by sound;
- identification (an experienced fighter could even determine the brand of the aircraft by sound);
- determination of the number of aircraft (very approximately 1-2-10, but could);
- determination of the flight direction;
- determination of flight altitude.

By sound, with the help of all this primitive that we see in old photos. Direction and height were determined using the same electronic devices that simply measured the sound strength.

VNOS posts were effective not only conditionally, but approximately effective. An observer by the sound of the engines could detect the aircraft in good weather and in the absence of additional sources of noise at a distance of up to 10 km. It is clear that in the event of bad weather and the noise of the same rain, the detection distance dropped sharply.

If we talk about optical detection methods (binoculars or a stereo tube), they could at best provide a detection distance of up to 5 km.


So when we are talking about the initial stage of the Great Patriotic War, then yes, until more or less decent radars appeared, it was possible to detect enemy aircraft at night or in low clouds and fog only by sound.

But even with the most thorough training and training of the personnel of the NP VNOS, he (the personnel) needed, under favorable conditions, a relatively low flight speed (up to 450 km / h) and an average altitude (less than 7000 meters) about 2-3 minutes to to define all target parameters. And at night, in fog or low cloud cover, in the case of aircraft flying at high altitude, the calculation of the OP, at best, could only approximately indicate that at such and such a time several aircraft were flying over the NP VNOS.

In our time, the technical means that can be used for listening are significantly superior to those that were at the disposal of the VNOS fighters 80 years ago. This is clear and understandable, it remains only to put the engineers behind the topic and give them the opportunity to solve it. Sound pickup equipment on a mobile base is not so difficult.

Moreover, here you can even give a hint from the present.

One of the units of the NM of the LPR implemented a very interesting project with the help of volunteers: communication between all units of the regiment using repeaters. What's new, you say? What is new is that the repeaters were made “from dung and sticks,” as they say, that is, from improvised materials that could be obtained. The highlight of the placement was that the repeaters themselves were raised to a height of 200-300 meters above the ground with the help of balloons from weather balloons.

One of the authors also participated a little in the development of this project, in fact, it turned out pretty well. Even better than expected. The ball, by the way, at such a height is almost invisible from a distance of a couple of kilometers, so the system works without loss. We omit the rest of the details, because they are redundant here.

But the very principle of raising sensitive equipment up, away from the earth with its noise, there is something reasonable in it. Moreover, the existing wireless data transmission systems make it possible to do without bulky coils of wires.

Sound detection systems connected to modern computers, with programs that can "remember" the sound of the UAV and distinguish it from the general sound background - this is actually not so difficult. All this is already there and you won’t have to invent a tank.

The task of creating such wiretapping complexes is not a super task for normal modern engineers, if we still have such. It's just a task, nothing more.

We'll have to think about what to shoot down.

Here, the main problem is that along the route, any strike UAV does not go at low level, but at a comfortable and safe height of 2-3 km, where it is not visible and not really heard. And it descends to a lower height just before the attack of the target.

When it comes to the final part of the UAV flight, when the height allows the use of MZA (small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery), then everything is clear. Ukrainians shot down drones with the help of ZSU-23-2, and with the help of small arms.

In our case, the good old "Shilki" are simply beautiful with their ability to sow space with 23 mm cucumbers. Naval AK-630s can look pretty good. The essence is the same - sowing with shells the area where the UAV was spotted.

However, the 20-30 mm projectile has a number of disadvantages, such as the fact that it does not have a remote fuse once and explodes on contact with the target once and twice - such a projectile is clearly too big for such a small target.

And then it makes direct sense to recall how, in general, the air defense of different countries fought against aviation enemy. This, of course, is not about the United States, but in the USSR, Germany and Great Britain, air defense had to work from the heart.

How to shoot down a WWII bomber? Of course, a fighter or an anti-aircraft gun. How did the anti-aircraft guns of the air defense system of the same Germany work when armadas of allied bombers in the amount of 500 to 1000 units flew into the country? Yes, and at an altitude of 8 km and above?


Naturally, guided by the radar data, the German anti-aircraft gunners put up a barrier in the way of the bombers. Hundreds of barrels fired thousands of shells where the planes were flying. That's right, not by planes, but to where they flew. Approximately to the point that was calculated and approximately at that height.

No one talked about the fact that an anti-aircraft projectile can hit an aircraft flying at an altitude of 8 meters at a speed of 000 km / h. It happened, but rarely. Basically, the crews suffered losses, and the equipment of the aircraft failed due to fragments that pierced the skin, tore wires and pipelines with fuel, disabled hydraulic systems, and so on.


So really, fragments and striking elements such as arrows or shrapnel. Arrows have not proven themselves so well, today it is a method of dealing with modern aircraft, but the old proven shrapnel is a topic, in our opinion.

Let's look at the 76,2x558R shrapnel projectile for the anti-aircraft gun of the 1931/38 model, which is "3-K".


A projectile weighing 6,3-6,5 kg rose to a height of 1 to 9 km and exploded there, forming about a hundred steel or cast-iron fragments from the shell weighing more than 5 grams and throwing out 260 steel shrapnel bullets, weighing 10,7 grams each, along with fragments . 458 grams of explosive ensured the spread of fragments and shrapnel within a radius of up to 100 meters or more.

The fact that the height of the shell burst could be set, albeit approximately, everyone knows. The same "tube ...", which ensured the detonation of the projectile at a given height.

Antiquity? Quite yes. But a radio fuse that received a signal reflected from the target being attacked and explodes as close as possible to it is not suitable here. Nothing to reflect.

But a primitive projectile from the period of the beginning of the Second World War will look quite interesting here.

What is known? Approximate height and speed of the target. The initial speed of the projectile is known, there are tables according to which the delay time of the projectile fuse is set. By turning a special key on the body of the projectile, the height of the gap (the adjusting ring was twisted) of the warhead was set. At the bottom of the projectile there was something like a groove filled with a combustible composition, which, in fact, slowed down the burst of the projectile by its burning.

The turn of the ring set the place of ignition of the fire mixture after the shot, that is, how long this track would burn, from a second to ten, roughly speaking.

Why so detailed? Just for understanding: a very simple and dumb system. No locators, no radar or barometric sensors. But this simplicity will make it possible to fill up with fragments a certain sector of space, to which aircraft or UAVs are approaching in our particular case.

Considering that one 3-K 76-mm gun fired up to 20 (actually 14-15) rounds per minute, a battery of four guns in barrage mode could fire 60 rounds. This is 6000 fragments and 15600 shrapnel bullets. The only question is which sector in length and height these guns will cover. That is, it is a question of training and training of calculations.

Moreover, the old projectile doesn’t really care about electronic warfare and other tricks of our time. It flies while the retarder in the bottom burns. Then everything, the gap and the striking elements flew. The sector in the sky is simply covered with small metal balls and fragments, making it very difficult for these drones to fly through it.


Quite a viable option.

If someone (and there will certainly be such) says that this is unscientific fantastic nonsense, well, we will object.

Some six months ago, we were all sure that the latest equipment would work on the battlefield for Ukraine. All these “analogues” of ours that were shown to us at parades and told how cool and fancy they were.

But in fact, moreover, on both sides, we are seeing frank junk half a century ago. We have the T-62, the Ukrainian Armed Forces have the T-55M (Macedonia supplied), the BMP-1, the S-57 60-mm artillery system both here and the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the same ancient Gepards sent to the Ukrainians ...

All according to the canons. The cheaper the better.

But in our case, cheapness does not play such a role. In our case, the very possibility of setting barrage fire when enemy drones approach is just interesting.

Another question is where to get guns and shells? Even if the principle is quite self-explanatory, it must be supported precisely by the presence of barrels and shells for them. And also to train people in all anti-aircraft artillery kitchen.

For starters, it would be nice to delve into long-term storage warehouses. There are a lot of things there for a long time, and anti-aircraft guns can be found. S-60s and shells for them were found.

The idea seems to be a good one.

However, if someone else has opinions on how to defeat shahid-like devices, then you have the floor.
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145 comments
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  1. +12
    5 November 2022 05: 33
    And here in our heads (three at once, which excludes the option of clouding our minds), a plan was born, according to which it is worth looking back into the experience of the Second World War.

    A few years ago, development work began in our country with the code "Penicillin", the purpose of which was to create a fundamentally new automated sound-thermal complex (AZTK) for artillery reconnaissance of the army level.
    (https://topwar.ru/148924-kompleks-zvukoteplovoj-artillerijskoj-razvedki-1b75-penicillin.html)

    All that matters is to refine the soft for processing noise from drones.
    1. +12
      5 November 2022 06: 55
      There are too many analogies with the Second World War ((((and the author does not think about proposing to revive the VNOS services and binoculars, that the Russian army, by definition, is higher than the Armed Forces of Ukraine, having an advantage in technology and aviation with the Aerospace Forces, and now, in fact, an equal one, turning into a partisan SVO, will not lead to good, trampling in the Ukrainian steppes not only detracts from Russia as a State, but also depletes resources.More and more often, filthy speeches about peace and negotiations are heard (((((so the society will not understand this, and here no smart complementary speeches will chatter misunderstanding.
      1. +9
        5 November 2022 07: 58
        I disagree fundamentally. Analogies with the Second World War help to develop an inexpensive and effective solution to the problem. The way in which the Victory will be obtained may differ from your idea of ​​​​it, including pathos statements about the State. You are likened to UWB with their exclusivity - this is how I see it from the outside. hi
        1. +4
          5 November 2022 11: 21
          Well, yes, from "having no analogues in the world" to VNOSU is a great idea. Now get muskets with fuzes and hold on, damned enemy.
          1. -1
            7 November 2022 22: 19
            So what? A drone with a fusee or musket is a very good idea wassat
        2. +1
          7 November 2022 22: 18
          Analogies with the Second World War interfere. It is the analogies that do not allow the authors to go beyond stereotyped thinking and offer a solution to an ordinary physical problem of isolating and destroying a physical object. There were no drones during WWII. And the technique was different, and in general, everything was different. No need to get stuck in old patterns, because the task is new
      2. +11
        5 November 2022 08: 24
        In a way, you are right.
        The reports from the Kherson direction are especially depressing: the resettlement of residents, curfew 7/24, constant talk about the possibility of surrendering the city to the enemy.
        If we translate the news "approved" for publication into normal language, it turns out that everything is not bad, but very bad.
        1. +7
          5 November 2022 16: 21
          While the Ukrainian side constantly declares that Kherson and all statements about its surrender are a trap. Artillery from one bank perfectly finishes off on the opposite, an easy walk is not expected.
          The danger is the explosion of the dam, both sides are calculating the likely consequences of such an event, and everyone understands that the civilian population will have a very difficult time. That is why they are being evacuated.
      3. -2
        6 November 2022 18: 50
        Quote from Silver99
        Increasingly, there are nasty speeches about peace and negotiations.

        War to the bitter end, no negotiations with the aggressors.
    2. 0
      21 November 2022 17: 18
      I read all the comments and concluded that the article initiated a discussion of an important topic. But how it is proposed to do it cheaper and simpler is wrong. UAVs will be improved and modernized in the future (the notorious Shield and Sword) and it is necessary to create an integrated defensive system from UAVs.
      So that's what I read in the article, in the comments and in several other articles, we can conclude that there are no significant problems with detection systems. There are various systems and options for their use. Including the AZTK that you mentioned. Many also write that the modernization of the detection systems of existing small-caliber air defense systems will also make it possible to effectively deal with UAVs. Make an analogue of skynex on a wheeled chassis or conditionally by upgrading the detection and guidance system on Tunguska (which will give the same result).
      In principle, there are many options for how to establish this system in the technical plane. In essence, this is an adaptation of air defense systems to smaller targets and other performance characteristics.
      That is, you don’t need to invent something, it already exists, the main problem is not in development, but in mass production. It is in this plane that there can be problems. We need a serious mobilization of the economy and the military-industrial complex to solve these problems. Whether effective managers will be able to do this, and most importantly, put it on the line, is a big question. Let's hope we have done UAVs and we will overcome them.
  2. +5
    5 November 2022 05: 40
    But in fact, moreover, on both sides, we are seeing frank junk half a century ago. We have the T-62, the Ukrainian Armed Forces have the T-55M (Macedonia supplied), the BMP-1, the S-57 60-mm artillery system both here and the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the same ancient Gepards sent to the Ukrainians ...

    And the D-1 howitzers of the 1943 model, which are supplied to our army.
  3. KCA
    +29
    5 November 2022 05: 42
    And what, the OLS was removed from the "Shell"? They lead birds and balloons, and here they are 3 meters long and have a wingspan of 2 meters, it is clear that the detection range is less than that of the radar, but the speed of the moped is much less
    1. -1
      5 November 2022 07: 53
      I agree with you, the author got up on the morning of the day after 4.11, got drunk and picked up a pen ...
    2. +3
      5 November 2022 08: 16
      Interesting - how does Strela-10 react to drones? Does she have a photo-contrast aiming head, like she should see him against the sky?
      1. +1
        7 November 2022 22: 21
        Arrow-10, I think, will miss. Not designed for this size
        1. 0
          7 November 2022 23: 59
          Well - I think it's a matter of programming the head for a certain sensitivity. At least - it seems to me that a photo-contrast guidance system has more chances than IR or radar .. For those, the UAV is really not a very contrasting target. But the silhouette against the sky - you can't disguise it ..
          1. -1
            8 November 2022 01: 12
            It's not about sensitivity. Each GOS has a certain resolution. But the sensitivity cannot be increased, otherwise the GOS will be aimed at the clouds. And in the clouds, she will definitely lose her target. As for the radar seeker - you are in vain. The millimeter-wave seeker is perfectly aimed at such a target. And the IR GOS distinguishes it by catching it at night. But your photooptic at night can only detect it against the background of the Moon. Therefore, the GOS operating in the visible light range was abandoned. Now, however, you can also use neural networks to highlight the target. And since the neural network on board the rocket dramatically increases its cost and complexity, you can leave the neural network on the launcher, and launch a simple missile with radio command guidance at the target. It can be tracked by another neural network. And to simplify the tracking of the missile, provide it with a tracer. And it will be convenient for the operator
            1. 0
              8 November 2022 12: 11
              here your photooptic at night can only detect it against the background of the moon

              Firstly, it is not mine, but for a long time it was in service with the Soviet army. Secondly, UAVs usually don’t fly much at night either .. At least those that go to a non-stationary target in coordinates.
              1. 0
                8 November 2022 12: 50
                If we are talking about kamikaze drones like Shahid / Geranium, which follow the navigator, then they do not care what time of day to fly. After all, the topic is devoted to the fight against such. At night it is even more convenient, because it is more difficult to detect and there is less loss of people. Yes, and less air defense readiness at night. I know about the photooptic seeker, but were there reasons why there were no such seekers left? Although, their reincarnation at a new technological level is possible
    3. +9
      5 November 2022 08: 24
      How long is the border of the Belgorod and Kursk regions with Ukraine??? How many shells do you need to block this border ???
      1. +8
        5 November 2022 09: 45
        Why invent something? There are already compact-sized AFARs that identify birds. You just need to make them and saturate the troops with them.
        1. +1
          5 November 2022 10: 41
          It is one thing to be aware of the target and quite another to intercept. Such drones can go in really large groups. And such groups need to be destroyed completely.
        2. 0
          8 November 2022 11: 05
          I support. Just make me 100 AFAR with a range of 1000 km and the ability to track 5000 targets at the same time. Maybe not tomorrow, next Monday!
      2. 0
        8 November 2022 11: 44
        garri-lin
        How long is the border of the Belgorod and Kursk regions with Ukraine??? How many shells do you need to block this border ???

        Radar on an airplane, helicopter, or other aircraft. At least on the Ka-31. By the way, the posts of aerial observers, even with binoculars, or millimeter-wave field radars, are also relevant. When drones are detected, they call the air defense headquarters, and they are already raising serious funds
    4. 0
      8 November 2022 11: 43
      Somewhere they showed that the Pantsir radar easily detects and accompanies even popular quadrocopters. Therefore, there are no problems with either detection or defeat.
  4. +5
    5 November 2022 05: 48
    Now the imagination draws a picture of a protective belt around Voronezh: A chain of balloons is deployed from the dangerous direction. They are located at a distance of 3-5 km from each other at an altitude of 200-300 meters.
    Each ball carries an air defense combat station in the form of a barrel (as on the Ostankino tower).

    The station includes a portable multi-wavelength radar, a sound pickup, an optical space analyzer and a rapid-fire cycle-fire machine gun with a certain amount of ammunition.
    Ahead, 3-7 km along the front, unmanned airships with similar equipment are loitering as an advanced patrol of the system. One combat link includes two balls and one airship.
    Data from the airships and balloons is sent to the ground-based launcher, which has at its disposal ground-based means of suppressing UAVs.
    Of course, this fantasy can be supplemented with a combat laser both for destroying targets and for their illumination, an electronic warfare station and everything else that comes into inquisitive minds.
    1. +5
      5 November 2022 06: 10
      Maybe easier? To attach a fine-mesh net to airships?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. +5
      5 November 2022 06: 20
      Laugh at the concepts of what is possible and necessary ..BUT! Not all ideas come from - it's a circus! Before the breakthrough, everyone knows and does it, but those that pass are called brilliant. Our military woke up the genie and now we need to quickly find justice for him! And I give a concept balloon lying on the surface or balloons on a rope with all-round visibility equipment in all ranges (if there are problems with the "digit", then the ancient "analog". Modern materials will allow you to raise this surrogate within a kilometer, and this is already a distance beyond front-line weapons enemy .. relatively cheap and cheerful!
      1. +1
        5 November 2022 06: 51
        And I didn't actually laugh at all. He just developed the idea on the scale of his poor mental abilities. Moreover, what I described is an "analogue" of the country's air defense.
        And for the air defense of troops, compact mobile systems are needed.
    4. +13
      5 November 2022 07: 22
      Bravo! Bravo comrade! While we were competing in hypersound, low-speed mopeds entered the arena! And the whole hyper went into the furnace! There was no effect from it, but the moped made a splash! Although in size these mopeds are almost akin to IL-2. So maybe we in vain abandoned propeller-driven aircraft? And it was necessary to develop these slow-moving vehicles along with helicopters? New ILs can be used for attacks, and a control unit can be put on a worn one and sent as a drone! Why not? Yes, and the speed of construction would be higher and the cost of this Silt would be lower than the cost of Drying. The idea of ​​the authors of the article with balls is so good. It turns out that our military-industrial complex, without the experience of military operations, developed in a dead end (false) direction. Who among the greats said - ** An army without combat experience becomes an army of janitors! **.
      1. +7
        5 November 2022 19: 31
        Hyper our everything! With manic persistence, they are now pushing hypersonic zircon into the iskander, apparently after that they will collect all the belongings and leave Avdeevka, Kramatorsk, Slavyansk ... Instead of making a cheap planning bomb (there is not even an engine, wings + glonass navigator), they are making another prodigy. I don’t know, these stupid lizards live in some kind of reality of their own, apparently they are at war with NATO, America, repel attacks of aliens ...
        1. -1
          8 November 2022 11: 09
          So it is, the United States is at war with NATO, and more recently with "world Satanism." And Satan, everyone knows this, is very afraid of hypersound.
    5. +4
      5 November 2022 07: 24
      Now the imagination draws a picture of a protective belt around Voronezh ...

      Thank you very much!good To read such a witty, saturated with subtle irony and light sarcasm statement, which is your post, is a wonderful charge of vivacity and good mood for the coming day! laughing
      Thanks again!
    6. +3
      5 November 2022 08: 26
      You forgot UAV fighter and think martial eagles. By analogy with fighting dolphins.
      1. +2
        5 November 2022 12: 56
        Can you imagine such a combat .... "worms"? They crawl underground towards the enemy ....
      2. +1
        7 November 2022 22: 23
        For birds of prey - megaplus! The main thing is to be able to catch up and rise to such a height
    7. The comment was deleted.
    8. 0
      8 November 2022 11: 48
      ... and drones with nets and nets patrol around the clock)) And along the entire border, to a height of 2-3 km, the nets are stretched on poles laughing
    9. +1
      1 January 2023 21: 23
      Agree. Special locators catch UAVs well. They just need to be lifted up. Airships and balloons are very interesting, but they do not produce reliable shells. The fastest in the role of such platforms with special locators for round-the-clock scanning of the surrounding space will be loitering UAVs on electric motors that will receive power and transmit information via cable. Russia already has such UAVs.
  5. Eug
    0
    5 November 2022 06: 26
    Wow, what will happen when this hail of fragments of a small mass, but at an appropriate speed (because from a height) falls down, and tvm city blocks or suburban areas and - PEOPLE busy with their own business? As for me, to destroy an UAV, you need EMP of sufficient power. After all, there is something like a means of generating EMP during an explosion - these are the ones that need to hit the UAV BRAIN first of all, and it is desirable to do this over the fields. Or ground-based generation facilities, if they get it in height. In any case, the cost of the means of destruction will be more expensive than the target itself, but the damage prevented is worth it.
    1. 0
      8 November 2022 11: 51
      Eugneed EMP of sufficient power
      This EMP of yours ... prodigy ... is too complicated and expensive. And it’s not a fact that he will burn something - you can protect the drone from EMP - it’s not difficult - a young technician can handle it. It's easier to hit this drone with something
  6. -3
    5 November 2022 06: 36
    It is necessary to destroy the factories producing, even with nuclear weapons. No need to put on snot. Defensive tactics do not lead to Victory
  7. +14
    5 November 2022 06: 36
    A blow to Moscow will sober up both the Duma and the Bank and the Kremlin. I have been here since 2014 and many forum users wrote that Putin should bring in the army, but no, he is a liar.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  8. +6
    5 November 2022 06: 41
    1. We are again offered to fight the "gorynych snake" by cutting off his fingers, which will immediately grow back?
    2. Of course, I understand that everything is wrong in the Russian military-industrial complex, but why reinvent the wheel of a hundred years ago? You just need to study what our enemies and "partners" have of the necessary equipment / equipment, and look for analogues on ali-express (sarcasm).
    1. +2
      5 November 2022 10: 18
      Quote: Vladimir80
      1. We are again offered to fight the "gorynych snake" by cutting off his fingers, which will immediately grow back?

      Probably the smartest idea. It is necessary to look for an antidote not only against the instrument, it is necessary to hit the head in parallel, striving for a knockout. I mean the organizational and governing bodies of the economic and logistics management system of Ukraine as a state. It is necessary to plow up border crossings, eliminate energy to minimize the possibility of setting up production, eliminate supply and logistics management bodies, army headquarters and the state apparatus. And in order for the West to gradually lose interest in Ukraine, it is necessary to speed up the preparation and conduct of the Odessa operation and cut off the sea. To establish and restore the production of shells for anti-aircraft artillery 76-85 mm is months at a Stalinist pace. Time is gone. It was necessary to deal with programmable power supplies in these calibers 20 years ago. And today, talk on this topic is a beating on the "tails". We need to take drastic measures. It is necessary to break the will of the leadership of the Ukrainian army and its supply infrastructure. So far, these opportunities have not been missed.
    2. Eug
      0
      8 November 2022 17: 34
      As always, we will sell oil, gas and other resources - in an unprocessed form, of course - and with the proceeds we will buy what we need, not forgetting to shove the margin into the right pockets (sarcasm if anything). At the first stage, it is necessary, since there were a lot of questions (p, r), then only improved and self-developed ones. And something urgently needs to be done with the economic model - it is categorically unprofitable to develop and make cheap products now, this needs to be radically broken!
  9. +6
    5 November 2022 06: 44
    it would be nice to dig into long-term storage warehouses
    Sometimes it’s not harmful to scrape the bottom of the barrel, the main thing is to benefit.
  10. +15
    5 November 2022 06: 48
    "Shaheds" over Russia: how to deal with them


    the effectiveness of Geranium 2 in Ukraine is due not to innovation, but to both the outdated Soviet air defense of Ukraine and the ineffectiveness of Western air defense systems.
    "Shahed" for the first time flew over Russia in the second half of the 80s, and Matias Rust was driving such a "Shahed" and conclusions were drawn and the air defense was finalized. The second raid of the "Shahed", moreover, regular and massive, was on the territory of Russia abroad namely, to the Khmeimim base. Moreover, the closest analogues of the "Shahed" were used there by the enemy, namely, an aircraft-type drone in a non-metal case with an engine from a "moped" and again conclusions were drawn and finalized both Shells and Torahs for which detection and firing hitting even a miniquadcopter is not a problem.
    "Shahed" is a huge drone (3.5 meters long and 2.5 meters wide, audible for several kilometers and visible visually (flight altitude ceiling of 5 kilometers))

    So why did Geranium 2 become so effective in Ukraine:
    1) outdated Soviet air defense systems developed in the late 80s and outdated Soviet radars that are ineffective when detecting such a small target for them that can actually fly close to the ground (minimum flight height of 60 meters above the ground) at "helicopter" speed.
    2) the absence of a layered air defense system over Ukraine (only focal air defense remained)
    3) the location of air defense systems in dense urban areas, which makes it impossible to confidently capture such targets and leads to the frequent capture of false civilian targets and their erroneous defeat.
    Ukraine is forced to hide its air defense systems in cities in order to avoid their detection and destruction by Russian missiles.
    1. +2
      5 November 2022 07: 32
      the effectiveness of "Geranium 2" in Ukraine is due to ...

      paragraph 2) - fully agree, paragraph 3) - partially.
    2. +1
      5 November 2022 11: 58
      Quote: lopvlad
      not the effectiveness of Western air defense systems.

      1. Are they there in significant quantities?
      2. Is there analog again?

      Quote: lopvlad
      Shahed for the first time flew over Russia in the second half of the 80s, and Matthias Rust was driving such a Shahed

      The sizes are just not Shahedov's ...
      Length: 8,28 m
      Wingspan: 11,0 m
      Height: 2,72 m
      Wing area: 16,2 m²

      Quote: lopvlad
      "Shahed" is a huge drone (3.5 meters long and 2.5 meters wide, audible for several kilometers and visible visually (flight altitude ceiling of 5 kilometers))

      And all these years, Western air defense did not cope well with the shaheeds in Yemen. And to fight them in Yemen and Ukraine, you have to use planes ...
      But radars don't really see it.

      Quote: lopvlad
      namely, to the Khmeimim base.

      Everything is fine, but Khmeimim is VERY tightly covered by air defense. This is not even Sevastopol for you.
      And before that, in 82, the layered air defense system in Syria could not do ANYTHING to the drones and IDF vehicles. And even now, air defense in Syria, despite the refinement and target designation from us, cannot cope.

      Quote: lopvlad
      2) the absence of a layered air defense system over Ukraine (only focal air defense remained)

      If focal and only remained, then why don't VKS work in the rear?
    3. -1
      8 November 2022 11: 13
      What else for "civil purposes"?
  11. +3
    5 November 2022 06: 48
    Yes, demolish Koncha Zaspa to the pit and that's it. Grandfather Pihto does not seem to wake up.
    1. +5
      5 November 2022 07: 37
      Grandfather implements modalities, pursues a multi-vector policy, and, in general, tries to take away the title of the friendliest character in the world from Leopold the Cat fellow
      No need to rock the boat, grandfather is busy with serious matters, and you with your nonsense - some kind of war, they came up with it too ...
  12. +11
    5 November 2022 06: 59
    Every day of co-operation with the NWO will turn for Russia into a massive attack by Western martyrs on the cities of Russia! It was clear when they realized that it was nowhere easier to make them and the cost was cheap, and it was very difficult to find them! The West will put their production on stream and supply Banderlogia from the heart!
    1. +8
      5 November 2022 07: 24
      You proposed the only right decision in this situation, to move the border to Poland, which was actually supposed to be done on February 24, 2022, and now, while maintaining an embittered mass and, moreover, pumped up with Western weapons, they propose to treat the attacks of drones of Russian cities with understanding ((((( Maybe we’ll stop chatting and scaring at the level of the country’s leadership, but let’s get into military affairs?
      1. +2
        6 November 2022 18: 54
        Quote from Silver99
        move the border to Poland

        The border should be pushed back to the English Channel, that's the only way. The paratroopers will reach Kyiv in three days, and London in a week
  13. -1
    5 November 2022 07: 01
    Right now, I just took it and laid out my thoughts smile There are experts on both sides. In our Russians, I believe, they will find solutions, but they already exist, and what they give to the Armed Forces of Ukraine will be used. The question is closed.
  14. tsy
    0
    5 November 2022 07: 05
    With the help of ultrasound - a sound wave, a radar and a sound projectile
  15. Hey
    +4
    5 November 2022 07: 11
    From the new "DerviationPVO" with its 57mm cannon and allegedly already available shells with remote detonation. This is the first line of defense.
    Lowlands, problem areas we put nets on balloons.
    Second line of defense. We are resurrecting piston aviation capable of flying at speeds comparable to those of UAVs and higher.
    Post question. What width of the front can cover one post. And whether to deploy a second line or even a third with the same posts.
    Posts can be provided by hp. urgent service is not a front.
    I'm assuming 1 km. So you need 1200 posts. I agree initially 1 post per 2 km. Technical composition: a.m. with equipment, a.m. support (truck), a.m. a searchlight, a means of destruction ("Shilka", ZU-23 on the ambulance, "DerviatsiyaPVO" or other), an electric generator.
    HP: post commander and his deputy. - 2 hours, 3 operators, 3 observers (optics), 2 searchlight crews, 4 hours artillery crew, 3 hours security and maintenance, diesel electrician 1 hour.
    Total: 18 people or for all posts 21600 + management and communications - 30000
    I repeat, if the post can provide a greater width of protection, then the costs will decrease.
    1. +1
      7 November 2022 19: 49
      I completely agree. And light piston aircraft armed with machine guns, ideal drone hunters...
    2. 0
      23 January 2023 06: 41
      Turboprop attack aircraft in Latin America are excellent at fighting partisans and "sess" drug dealers .. articles on VO a few years ago
  16. +1
    5 November 2022 07: 16
    The method of detection, in my opinion, is interesting, but the method of defeat is controversial.
  17. +3
    5 November 2022 07: 22
    Nonsense .
    Similar drones and even smaller ones, our troops clicked like nuts in Syria.
    Another thing is that if the enemy takes it disassembled and hits objects from the depths, well, this is the work of the FSB.
  18. -8
    5 November 2022 07: 23
    One nuclear strike on any target in Europe and the war in Ukraine will end.
    1. +4
      5 November 2022 17: 00
      That's for sure. A global war will begin. Bunker ready?
  19. +4
    5 November 2022 07: 30
    I will answer the author this way to the question - so that there would be no strikes on Russian cities, it is necessary to defeat Ukraine faster, there is no need to invent anything!
  20. +2
    5 November 2022 07: 30
    AK-630M is a very good artillery mount - a high rate of fire of 5000 rounds per minute and accuracy will allow you to fight UAVs without any problems!
  21. +1
    5 November 2022 07: 59
    Why reinvent the wheel?

    Today, the simplest, most accurate and cheapest way to remotely detonate a projectile is a laser trail. There is of course a radio fuse, but it requires a radar. Tubes, paws are mechanics, and moreover, after the shot, it is already uncontrollable.

    Regarding the detection of targets, even the ancient S-300P air defenses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine perfectly detect, take on escort and destroy drones (if the rocket is not rotten).
    And this is not remembering the surveillance radars and more modern S-400 and Bukov M2 / 3 radars of the Russian Aerospace Forces.
    1. 0
      5 November 2022 18: 45
      There was news here recently:
      A representative of the corporation told National Defense magazine about the successful testing of 30x133 mm dual-use high-explosive fragmentation cartridges for the M230LF Bushmaster machine gun. The ammunition is equipped with a small sensor that detects drones, then an explosion occurs, with the drone being damaged by shrapnel, rather than a direct hit by a projectile.

      The company is keeping exactly how the new round works under wraps, but according to a Northrop Grumman spokesman, the RF sensor inside each round is based on sensing technology "that has been around for decades." Currently, new cartridges have already begun to enter service with the US Army.

      In addition to being highly effective against small drones, the new munition is said to be unique in that its cost is several times lower than other systems for destroying UAVs. For automatic targeting, a special ACE program is used, but, as a representative of the developer company emphasized, the M230LF Bushmaster cartridge and machine gun can work with any guidance system.
      1. +1
        6 November 2022 17: 47
        Hello, dear: in Russia, everything that shoots that has a caliber equal to or above 20 mm is called a GUNS.
        Not a machine gun.

        Therefore, do not call the expensive M230LF Bushmaster automatic gun a machine gun!
        This is disrespectful and simply not true from all points of view.
        Even in English, this device is called AUTOCANNON - look at Wikipedia:
        The M230 Chain Gun is a 30 mm (30×113 mm), single-barrel chain-driven autocannon
  22. +4
    5 November 2022 08: 00
    However, if someone else has opinions on how to defeat shahid-like devices - you have the floor.

    How can you offer something if you do not know the capabilities of the modern defense industry of the Russian Federation?
    In theory - a small rocket flying towards the sound (if in flight the Shahed rumbles like a moped).
    But I have a different proposal, similar to those already proposed. It's time to stop chewing snot and wait for peace offers. Russia has no common future with the Nazis!!! It's time to understand this at the highest level and stop persuading everyone and everything ... We need mobilization - go ahead! BUT, at the state level, with declared goals and a voiced ideology.
    The Russians are in no hurry to stand up for the Vekselbergs, Mordashovs, Abramovichs, Rotenbergs (albeit heroes of labor). Draw your own conclusions.
    If in order to achieve victory it is necessary to use weapons from the available spectrum, then Russia should not ask permission from Europe. The only thing to warn the Anglo-Saxons is that we will not wait for nuclear bombs and warheads to explode on our territory. There are about 6 of them in the country. And the first on the list for zeroing will be GB and countries that store nuclear weapons (Poland, Germany and further down the list). No further warnings...
    Stop frightening the hedgehog with your bare ass and hiding your head in the sand ... This is to each his own.
    1. 0
      6 November 2022 19: 11
      Quote: yuriy55
      The Russians are in no hurry to stand up for the Vekselbergs, Mordashovs, Abramovichs, Rotenbergs (albeit heroes of labor). Draw your own conclusions.

      Nationally oriented cadres from indigenous peoples should come to power.
      1. -1
        8 November 2022 11: 20
        And let the foreigners mark the streets, right? ) And live beyond the "line of settlement"?
        1. -1
          8 November 2022 16: 15
          Quote from xghost
          And let the foreigners mark the streets, right? ) And live beyond the "line of settlement"?

          And what do you want, Russia for non-Russians or what?
          1. 0
            8 November 2022 17: 17
            Well, ok, look how many non-Russian citizens are in the Russian Federation and tell me if you are ready to part with them
  23. +3
    5 November 2022 09: 12
    IMHO, the media immediately described both patents and performance characteristics that allow you to deal with UAVs.
    the whole question is the mass production, for example, of mobile radars with AFR.
    And this is already a global question - will "effective managers" and officials with negative selection be able to fix something quickly?
    Or you write here, but it will be "as always", and then they will hang noodles.
  24. +2
    5 November 2022 09: 48
    Well, what can I say. It is clear that a certain generalized "world air defense" was not quite ready for the invasion of drones. Shooting down is either inefficient or expensive. This, in fact, is the reason for the success of shahid mopeds. The eternal struggle of the shield and sword.
    It seems to me that some kind of renaissance of sound detection systems may indeed come. They can be very compact (they already exist, however, for other tasks), do not give themselves away (passive systems), have low power consumption, are relatively inexpensive, and are mobile. So I expect such systems to appear as one of the elements of integrated drone detection. In any case, this possibility is worth checking out.
    As for the means of destruction, it is possible that automated combat modules will appear (they are now breeding like rabbits in cages) connected to the means of detection. I think that it will not do without small-caliber artillery. Even starting from 7,62 mm. cheap and cheerful, the only question is efficiency, but they can provide a flurry of fire.
    In general, this needs to be checked.
    1. +1
      5 November 2022 18: 56
      As I understand it, shahid mopeds make noise because the Iranians use motors not of European originals, but of their own (or Chinese) not very high-quality clones. I suppose if our enemies get original European engines, they will not make noise like a moped.
      1. +2
        5 November 2022 23: 31
        I'm not sure, but judging by the pictures of the engine, there is no muffler at all, of course, it "rumbles" with all its might. It seems to me that they just "scored" it.
        1. +1
          6 November 2022 23: 12
          The range drops off a lot with the silencer.
      2. 0
        8 November 2022 11: 22
        The motor doesn't make any noise at all. But those are minor details, really.
        1. -2
          8 November 2022 11: 47
          You won’t fly far on an electric motor, because. batteries are heavy.
          1. 0
            8 November 2022 17: 19
            Ahh ... That is why no one makes barrage ammunition with electro. Or do they still do it? And with a range quite sufficient
            1. 0
              8 November 2022 19: 43
              The difference in range is 10 times. Which roughly corresponds to the difference in the amount of energy per unit mass of batteries and gasoline. Shahid mopeds can stay in the air for up to 12 hours, so they run on gasoline.
              1. -1
                10 November 2022 14: 58
                A kamikaze drone doesn't need 12 hours. This is not a scout. He needs a range of 100 km and that's it. This is a tactical rear tool. Shelling cities with such inaccurate weapons is barbaric and stupid.
  25. +3
    5 November 2022 11: 00
    Naval AK-630s can look pretty good.
    Yeah. Do the authors know that this system needs water cooling?
    1. +5
      5 November 2022 14: 12
      Quote: Aviator_
      Naval AK-630s can look pretty good.
      Yeah. Do the authors know that this system needs water cooling?

      The authors do not distinguish a shrapnel projectile from a remote grenade, but you tell them about water cooling ... laughing
  26. +2
    5 November 2022 11: 15
    as one of the options. After all, the Molotov cocktail still holds up, especially in urban combat.
    I think the solution, though not cheap, would be the deployment of the Shells in dangerous directions. Sensitive radar, not very expensive missiles with good performance, 2 x 30 mm high-speed cannons with a height reach of more than 3 km. Mobility. Tested in combat conditions. New versions of the complex received a missile range of up to 40 km, which means 80 km along the front. Yes, the guns cover up to 7-8 km along the front, but there are missiles! In addition, there is a version without guns, but 24 rockets. instead of 12. I am sure that in production this complex is expensive and laborious, but on the other hand, 2 dozen of these along the borders - and the 404th will no longer fly just like that.
    In addition to this, wherever the 404th deploys drone production, it is all within range of our missiles. Only the import remains. On the whole, the danger is real and we must fend it off right now.
  27. +3
    5 November 2022 11: 22
    The only way to eliminate the threat is to start fighting in earnest.
    Since this is from the realm of fantasy, it is necessary to prepare bomb shelters and transfer production beyond the Urals.
  28. +3
    5 November 2022 11: 22
    Time is an irreplaceable resource. The longer they delay the victory in the NWO, the more unsolvable tasks will be. In the end, conservatives will be replaced in the conservatory: Chronos eats his children.
  29. +2
    5 November 2022 12: 16
    Do you read newspapers?.. Nothing is hidden. What is the agenda now? Sustainable development. The Russian Federation is involved in this, read the presidential decrees. What is Sustainable Development? This is the thinning of the plebs in all ways, the destruction of the family = alimony, LGBT advertising, periodic epidemics = injections, artificial hunger and poverty, reduced consumption, much more and our case, fighting for the sustainable development of the elite. Malthus wrote about this 150 years ago. Armaments are given to both sides just enough so that no one wins quickly.
  30. +1
    5 November 2022 12: 30
    The most obvious solution is to define them ahead of time. From what I've read and from the videos I've actually seen, the engine is really noisy. How useful this is for intercepting them, I don't know. At the same time, given that these drones hit fixed targets, defense should ultimately be entrusted to C-ram systems. Limiting yourself to the most precious goals. Therefore: 1) Oerlikon Millennium Gun 35 mm;
    2) upgraded version of Oerlikon GDF 35 mm;
    3) Centurion C-ram 20 mm (land version of Phalanx)
    4) Porcupine C-RAM by Leonardo-OTO Melara 20mm
    5) 40mm L/70 Bofors connected to one central control and two sensor units and so on.
  31. 0
    5 November 2022 12: 37
    It is necessary to revive the I15 with modern means of detection.
    1. +1
      5 November 2022 21: 44
      and squads of snipers with PPSh for reliability)
  32. 0
    5 November 2022 13: 14
    It remains only to overcome the huge bureaucratic mechanism of the Moscow Region, introduction into production, admission to the air defense units guarding the cities of Russia - and this is all the time - and this is needed already Yesterday!
  33. +2
    5 November 2022 13: 21
    The whole difficulty is how many thousands of guns and shells will be needed to block the border, and where can we get the production facilities capable of doing this quickly?
  34. 0
    5 November 2022 13: 23
    One cannot ignore the experience of the Great Patriotic War, the experience of the son of difficult mistakes. I agree that it is difficult to work with acoustics, this is not a liquid, the density is small, sound propagation is not uniform, attenuation, wind drift, natural and man-made noises. But this is a way to detect not only UAVs, but also low-flying helicopters and attack aircraft, speed 200-500 km per hour, the speed of sound propagation is higher than the speed of the target and subject to a network narrowly focused scan along the line with a cut in the vertical plane (passage of the line) and remote sectoral directional acoustic sensors (the boundary is known for clarification of the direction of speed and classification of the object) with filters and a library of sound for various purposes, and you have a reliable system for detecting VC based on new physical principles, without radiation.
    In my previous comment, this was partially disclosed.
    Eternal war, the fight between the shield and the sword is not to forget, I forgot lost.
  35. +1
    5 November 2022 14: 06
    I proposed the definition of UAVs by sound back in the last Azerbaijani-Armenian conflict, when it was necessary to shoot down Bayrakters!
    I think the idea is correct and it is necessary to create an air defense system on this basis. The Pantsir has fast-firing 30 mm guns, but shells with a programmable fuse for this caliber have long been needed and not only for the Pantsyrs, but for armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles and Terminators! This will help to beat the infantry in the trenches, hitting the neck, face, eyes and allowing the assault groups to approach the grenade throw!
    Can make a special Anti-UV Carapace if you give it only mini-missiles, a powerful thermal imager and an optical sight, and also instead of a locator, which will be less effective, equip it with a new sound identification tracking station!
    1. +1
      5 November 2022 21: 37
      for starters, it would be nice to check the effectiveness of current air defense systems against small UAVs
  36. +2
    5 November 2022 14: 08
    A projectile weighing 6,3-6,5 kg rose to a height of 1 to 9 km and exploded there, forming about a hundred steel or cast-iron fragments from the shell weighing more than 5 grams and throwing out 260 steel shrapnel bullets, weighing 10,7 grams each, along with fragments . 458 grams of explosive ensured the spread of fragments and shrapnel within a radius of up to 100 meters or more.

    The three authors of this opus could not understand the structure of the shrapnel projectile and therefore decided, for greater importance, to mix the shrapnel projectile with a remote grenade. Very informative
  37. 0
    5 November 2022 14: 55
    They...Ukrainians, in a sense, would not dare!
  38. +1
    5 November 2022 17: 16
    In principle, it’s a completely working option (I’m talking about anti-aircraft shells), but to increase efficiency, it would be good to increase the time the striking element is in the air, namely, each element is supplied with a long thread with a micro-parachute at the end to reduce the falling speed, or to give the striking element the shape of a seed maple (helicopter). By firing such projectiles at / above the course of the UAV, it is possible to increase the likelihood of damage to it by demolishing / blocking the propeller.
  39. 0
    5 November 2022 17: 35
    In 2009, the Central Research Institute of Aerospace Defense Troops of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation developed the Phonon acoustic measuring complex, which makes it possible to measure acoustic radiation of various types of targets and backgrounds.. - http://bvpa.ru/%D0%BD%D0%B5-%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%8C-%D0%BD%D0%BE-%D0%B8-%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%8B%D1%88%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8C/
  40. +1
    5 November 2022 18: 14
    Until Belgorod, Sevastopol, and the Crimean Bridge began to be hammered, our authorities continued to play their own game, like a game (there would probably be no mobilization either if they were now sitting under Izyum.). I had to remove Lapin and put in Surovikin, create an analogue of the GKO, they began to hammer the energy system well. But for a month of geraniums, I didn’t notice something that it had a strong effect on them in terms of energy stability. Everything went back to "lapinina" phase. Apparently, ours needs another scuffle on our territory, so that they start moving again, making the necessary decisions. In the meantime, we smile and wave to grain carriers to Europe, oil for friendship, gas by sea. Kindness will lead to the grave, I hope that only those responsible for it.
  41. +1
    5 November 2022 19: 36
    How to detect small-sized drones, the author of the article outlined in principle. It would be very good to shoot down even the already outdated artillery memory devices of calibers from 23 to 57 mm. It remains only to equip the last shells with radio fuses invented long ago, and to establish a clear exchange of information between the PN and the memory devices themselves.
    Under Stalin, this would have been done as soon as possible.
    What will happen now - I doubt that it is known to anyone in the sublunar world.
  42. +2
    5 November 2022 20: 13
    Quote from Silver99
    There are too many analogies with the Second World War ((((and the author does not think about proposing to revive the VNOS services and binoculars, that the Russian army, by definition, is higher than the Armed Forces of Ukraine, having an advantage in technology and aviation with the Aerospace Forces, and now, in fact, an equal one, turning into a partisan SVO, will not lead to good, trampling in the Ukrainian steppes not only detracts from Russia as a State, but also depletes resources.More and more often, filthy speeches about peace and negotiations are heard (((((so the society will not understand this, and here no smart complementary speeches will chatter misunderstanding.

    The bulk of society will just as silently accept any agreement as it did: she drowned, the security forces of billionaires Cherkalin and Zakharchenko, I don’t know whose palace, I don’t know what salary, retirement age, 2014, Minsk uncontested, 300 billion and a new appointment of the head of the Central Bank, cruiser Moscow , 1,5 million uniforms that disappeared, etc., etc., etc. crying By bayut can in the kitchen .. that's all. fellow
  43. 0
    5 November 2022 21: 13
    Only not "Shaheds" but "Shahids". And so the article leads to clever thoughts. Plus.
  44. 0
    5 November 2022 21: 36
    the problem with sound reconnaissance is quite interesting - it’s easy to make acoustic stations and put them in several rows too - at high altitudes, air defense radars will already operate, which are tuned to detect small targets and can quite detect them - and destruction if during the day is photocontrast seeker, say MANPADS on any media, and if we already raise the question of artillery, that is, anti-aircraft shots for naval artillery with a radar fuse need to be checked for their reliability, as well as to check the effectiveness of the same Thors, BUKs, Shells, S-400, etc. .. before trying to invent something, you need to check the effectiveness of current funds
    1. 0
      6 November 2022 19: 46
      Quote: Barberry25
      acoustic stations are easy to make

      It is cheaper to mobilize military musicians in air defense, they have a thin ear.
      1. 0
        7 November 2022 16: 10
        cheaper? pay 200 thousand each a month? I think that installing sensors will cost less than installing several hundred kilometers every 2-3 kilometers for a musician)
        1. -1
          7 November 2022 18: 23
          Quote: Barberry25
          200 thousand to pay each per month

          Promise does not mean marriage. Let them pay first.
          1. 0
            7 November 2022 18: 34
            and? Do you understand that this is just in my piggy bank and not in yours?
            1. 0
              7 November 2022 20: 10
              Quote: Barberry25
              and? Do you understand that this is just in my piggy bank and not in yours?

              There are only shekels in my piggy bank...
  45. +1
    5 November 2022 21: 47
    It is difficult to disagree with the authors' arguments, although there are some nuances and additions. You can not just immediately reject the idea of ​​radar. Another thing is that specialized radars should be used to detect such slowly flying small targets. Experts convinced me that such radars exist and that they can be installed on turbo-piston aircraft with economical fuel consumption and long loitering time in the air. If such aircraft are armed with small-caliber guns or heavy machine guns with ballistic computers, then such an aircraft with a cruising speed of 400-500 km / h can easily work on a flock of drones. Aircraft used in civil aviation can be turned into such "fighters". Replacing each other, they must control the line of contact throughout. And you can also protect them with the help of active defense systems that emit special aerosols when they are attacked with missiles.
    1. 0
      6 November 2022 13: 30
      The machine gun, of course, is cheap, but it will take a very long time. We need some kind of cheap rocket weapon, but multi-channel. If we are talking about Shahed-136. Roughly speaking, we need an analogue of the MiG-31, but in "this universe."
  46. +1
    5 November 2022 22: 07
    To beat the enemy with little blood, on foreign territory - this is how the Red Army intended to fight. What happened in 1941-1942. everybody knows.
    What now ? Same. Expected and reality diverged dramatically. Already ready to fight on their territory. The authorities will never wake up. Will they really wait until the "mopeds" start bombing Moscow? request
  47. 0
    5 November 2022 22: 41
    There is something in this system. Many thanks to the authors for the detailed description of the project.
    But in Russian realities, such a system will be designed for at least 5 years. Then it will be tested until the conditional "diamond-antey" cuts enough dough.
    But this "anti-shahed" air defense is needed now!
  48. 0
    5 November 2022 23: 22
    I also thought about analogues of hunting cartridges and shots in relation to UAVs. It turns out that everything was invented without us.
  49. +1
    6 November 2022 01: 55
    Let's start with the fact that nothing prevents putting an electric motor on a shahid and making it an order of magnitude quieter. Starting at night complicates visual control. Shahid is not small at all and the radar can identify him (perhaps better from an air carrier). Destroy with 57mm shells from a conditional shell (I know that there is 30mm) by remote detonation, or by fighter drones. In any case, it is necessary now to build a layered air defense along the border from UAVs and develop the above countermeasures.
    1. 0
      6 November 2022 13: 12
      Interferes. The range will drop at times, the price will rise. But in principle it is possible.
  50. +1
    6 November 2022 11: 44
    Isn't it easier to make the same ammunition for Shilka like hunting cartridges? By supplying them with shrapnel and with such a wild rate of fire, then even mosquitoes will have no chance of surviving.
    1. +1
      6 November 2022 13: 11
      The fuse is needed remote, in 23-mm caliber. In principle, it is possible, but not cheap, given the consumption of ammunition. Shilka could have shot them down anyway, with direct hits, if the radar and FCS were replaced. But its "range" is small. However, this is not a reason not to upgrade Shilka in this situation.
  51. 0
    6 November 2022 12: 47
    People, of course, I’m an amateur, but why can’t we hang airships with radars and so on to determine who and what is flying, cheap and cheerful?
  52. +1
    6 November 2022 13: 09
    The engine is, of course, small. But, naturally, they didn’t think about any stealth when they made it. For a trike this is simply unnecessary. So I strongly doubt that the EPR of this product is much less than that of the missile launcher, which the MiG-31 “in stock” was supposed to fight with (but I would not seriously count on the IR range for search). The problem is different. You won't have enough Foxhounds and missiles for them to fight these Fau. In the 80s, the idea of ​​​​creating a specialized helicopter fighter - a light attack aircraft - was seriously discussed. This is also quite possible, but it takes some time. There remains the initial discovery. Here I would look at the Ka-31, naturally, a different radar is needed.
  53. +2
    6 November 2022 14: 05
    Here the author voiced three tasks. The first is resolved by victory over Ukraine, the Russian Federation entering the 1975 borders, and the annexation of the territory of Ukraine to the Russian Federation. The second task is how and with what to shoot down a UAV, this issue can be solved and is not difficult if this UAV is constantly monitored on the screens. The third task is detection and tracking. The article itself is interesting in terms of suggestions and ideas. I have long proposed, in parallel with the development of the installation of AWACS (carriers for long-range radar detection and control) on aircraft, to develop AWACS and install it on airships, this is several times cheaper. Short. Airship with a payload of up to 10 tons. Useful weight includes antennas, transmitters, receivers and other equipment. A set of antennas covering a range from meters to millimeters is installed. Scanning, both mechanical and phase passive, active antenna array. Operating altitude up to 15 km. Continuous operation time at height, 6 months (lowered and serviced). The airship is launched to a given point and maintains the given coordinates with electric motors. The airship is connected to the ground by a cable. Power is supplied to the airship via a cable cable, control is carried out, information is retrieved, etc. On the ground there is a diesel generator, a winch, and a control service, receiving and processing information. The cable rope is not load-bearing, it only supports itself (estimated weight of the cable rope is 3000 kg). From an altitude of 12 km, the optical visibility range is 420 km. Such an airship, AWACS plus optical and thermal detection, allows you to detect and track any drone - even ultra-small ones, an inflated balloon, a bird, and also ground objects. There are developments on airships in the Russian Federation, all the information is on the Internet.
    1. 0
      8 November 2022 11: 33
      What will be the mass of a 15 km long cable?
  54. 0
    6 November 2022 14: 54
    Quote: Dimax-Nemo
    Interferes. The range will drop at times, the price will rise. But in principle it is possible.

    The range is enough for 500 km. To make it easier, you can make a completely composite body, like a “flying wing”. Apply a special coating. So to speak, make STEALTH to the maximum without greatly increasing the cost.
  55. The comment was deleted.
  56. 0
    7 November 2022 21: 01
    Why do the authors demonstrate stereotyped thinking - sound suppressors and anti-aircraft artillery. Firstly, sound detectors were abandoned due to their extremely low accuracy. And also, I suspect that if the drone is flying at an altitude of 2-3 km, then it will not be heard. And if there are several drones, the sound detector will quickly get confused.
    FOR - shooting "in space". The higher it is, the greater the dispersion and the extremely high consumption of projectiles. But we forgot that we live in a different time now...
  57. 0
    7 November 2022 21: 05
    Let's start with radars. All this “invisibility” reflects poorly in the most popular centimeter range, but reflects perfectly in other ranges. Small drones from the ground should be well detected by millimeter-wave radars. Regarding IR radiation. Yes, it’s difficult to detect with thermal imagers from the ground, but there are helicopters with thermal imagers (equipment for night flights). At night the drone will be perfectly visible from such a helicopter
  58. 0
    7 November 2022 21: 11
    By the way, helicopter patrols are well suited for combating such drones. You don't even have to shoot. It will catch up and be blown away by the jet from the main rotor
  59. 0
    7 November 2022 21: 14
    The authors consider protection against drones somehow...abstractly. Meanwhile, they fly to specific targets. And the targets are protected by on-site air defense. It could have rapid-firing small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery, barrage balloons (for some reason they didn’t remember about them), and even nets on high poles (the Iraqis used this from Tomahawks). And the authors also forgot that such drones are guided using GPS - we jam the GPS signal in the area of ​​the object. Why is GPS there?
  60. 0
    7 November 2022 21: 18
    To begin with: the authors had no doubt that sooner or later (or rather sooner) “greetings” from Ukraine would fly towards Russia.



    Absolutely right
  61. 0
    7 November 2022 22: 07
    I will also express the opinion that drones could be fought not only with the help of helicopters, but also with the help of small, light-engine and ultra-light aircraft (ULA). For example, an SLA can carry a machine gun or a machine gun, or even a net for catching drones
  62. 0
    7 November 2022 22: 09
    A big problem arises when protecting area targets, for example, cities and large enterprises and power plants. Here, on-site air defense is not enough, and perhaps only helicopter or SLA patrols can help
  63. 0
    7 November 2022 22: 13
    In general, I think the problem should be posed and solved like an ordinary physical problem. There is a physical object located in an environment with certain properties that differ from the properties of this object, of a certain size, with certain characteristics and certain physical fields. This object must first be detected (selected from the environment), and then such an impact must be exerted on it that it cannot further move along a given trajectory. This problem has a completely optimal solution
  64. 0
    7 November 2022 22: 25
    I will repeat an idea that has already been implemented - trained birds of prey. Already used to protect civilian airports from drones
  65. 0
    7 November 2022 22: 49
    If we talk about the Second World War, then we can remember one simple decision of those times. German anti-aircraft grenade launcher. Very simple and cheap. Several barrels are loaded with unguided rockets fired in a salvo. Before launch, each rocket is programmed to detonate after a certain flight time. We program the missiles for different times so that, taking into account their dispersion, they produce a cloud of destructive elements into which the UAV falls. We won’t be able to hit it accurately anyway, so we just need to aim the missiles at the intended target area. The installation must be reloaded using cassettes, which will allow you to fire volleys at short intervals. Plus, the missiles must all be programmed (this can be done using remote pyrotechnic tubes, or using simple timers to reduce the cost of the missiles). The missiles must have ready-made striking elements, some of them must be shaped in such a way that they do not penetrate through the airframe, but they get stuck, stick out and spoil the aerodynamics of the UAV (for example, in the shape of stars). Other elements, on the contrary, must penetrate inside to cause structural damage to the structure, damage to equipment, explosive charges, etc. It is possible to use missiles with different types of destruction - fragmentation, with ready-made submunitions, forward-firing shrapnel, forward-firing arrow-shaped elements, etc.)
  66. 0
    8 November 2022 11: 56
    I'll add one more simple remedy. Light aviation and helicopters have already been mentioned here. If the helicopter simply blows away the litak, and the plane can defeat it with its propeller, or even simply ram it. Sports aircraft such as the Yak-18T, Yak-52 or Vilga have sufficient strength for this. And the propeller can be replaced with a reinforced one. In principle, a fairly strong swirling wake is created behind any propeller-driven aircraft; if the aircraft cuts off the drone, the drone falls into this jet and falls. The use of obsolete L-29 or L-39 is similar, of which there are quite a few left. Ramming is more difficult due to the higher speed, but the jet stream can burn and blow away the drone
  67. 0
    16 November 2022 00: 34
    This is how we fight, as the author writes. Complete nonsense. There is a proven Skaynex anti-aircraft system and not only that. Why invent something, be clever? You just have to start working and doing things. Get away from the buildings of yachts and palaces. Restore the Soviet engineering school lost under "0" (It wouldn't be possible without it). And everything will work out. But who needs it?
  68. 0
    5 December 2022 13: 59
    Dear Retrospective Roman, you are our dieselpunk lover. Now there are high-precision digital fuses with a trajectory detonation function and axial dispersion of shrapnel, as well as a new squeak with a controlled multi-point detonation for maximum high-explosive impact and a directed beam of fragments, the distant ancestor of the S-200 Angara warhead missile, with mechanical rotation of the warhead towards the target. So why return to the past, you will also offer crossbows and catapults.
  69. 0
    5 December 2022 14: 18
    Protection against Himers and UAVs is now one of the most relevant and in demand. Almost every day, people die from Himers and UAVs, and damage is caused to the country’s infrastructure. Therefore, air defense requires all more or less effective means, including even those from the Great Patriotic War. When a drone or hymers is shot down by air defense weapons, it doesn’t really matter what kind of air defense weapon they were shot down by. All populated areas in Russia cannot be attacked by new air defense systems. Therefore, it is necessary to remove all air defense systems from the arsenals as quickly as possible and put them into action. And in the arsenals there are still quite enough reserves of any weapons of past years. During combat use, no one prohibits the modification of old air defense systems to improve their performance characteristics. But the main thing in air defense is a system for operational and rapid target detection. The speed of the drone is about 500 km/h. Drones do not have any means of self-defense. If a UAV is quickly and timely detected, it is not particularly difficult to hit it. Electronic warfare equipment is especially useful in the fight against UAVs. The action of electronic warfare systems in a state of combat readiness is almost instantaneous. With the help of electronic warfare, you can not only shoot down, but also capture UAVs. In the fight against UAVs and Himers, one should not forget about MANPADS, which for some reason are now very little used in the conditions of the North.
  70. The comment was deleted.
  71. 0
    11 December 2022 11: 29
    To cover the rear from UAVs, you need a sufficiently large number of detection and destruction means. Accordingly, they should be relatively cheap. I still think the optimal detection option is special. Radar like this one

    For destruction, you can use the S-60 with a programmer and modified shells (for remote detonation). In my opinion, this is the fastest and cheapest option.
    PS In 2022 they promised to adopt Air Defense Direction! 20 days left.
  72. The comment was deleted.
  73. 0
    29 December 2022 07: 29
    I’m certainly not an air defense specialist, but isn’t the Pantsir air defense system with new missiles capable of detecting and destroying UAVs?
    1. 0
      4 January 2023 09: 02
      An object flying at low altitude can be detected from the ground only at a short distance (terrain, trees and other obstacles interfere), about two hundred hundred meters or less, this means that any short-range ground-based missile defense system must be placed every 200-300m. The main problem not how to shoot down a drone, but how to detect it at a great distance.., The only way to solve the problem is to install detection equipment on a high-altitude aircraft such as the Astrophysics M-55, which from a height of 15-22 km will scan a 10x10 km or 15x15 km square underneath and against the background of the earth detect flying drones and provide their coordinates to ground-based air defense systems
  74. 0
    23 January 2023 11: 31
    I already wrote about this, that drones can do business in our rear. Ukrainians know very well where and what dangerous industries are located on the territory of Russia, bordering Ukraine. It was necessary to organize air defense of chemical plants, water intakes, oil refineries and oil depots the day before yesterday. History teaches our leadership nothing; it feels like the leadership is playing computer shooters. If you say that NATO, led by the United States, is fighting against us, then take adequate measures to strengthen our defense capabilities. Like it or not, the territorial self-defense forces will have to create and organize object air defense with these forces. Otherwise, we can get, for example, a chlorine gas wave with large casualties or poisoning of water intakes. It feels like our leadership has not yet fully realized that there is a war going on. At the top they can even call it inter-army biathlon, but in fact we are in a state of war.
  75. 0
    23 January 2023 23: 19
    Comrades are stuck in the past with their views on WWII technologies. While it’s a stretch to agree with discovery, it’s a stretch to say nothing about destruction. We need "drone fighter" drones with a corresponding mini-missile. All these “thousands of bullets per square” are frankly ineffective.

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