The role of Turkey in World War II in the spring of 1941

55
The role of Turkey in World War II in the spring of 1941


Turkey's refusal


Let's start from this moment. On April 1, 1941, a pro-Nazi military coup took place in Iraq, known as the "Rashid Ali al Gailani coup" or the "Golden Four coup".



After April 1, 1941, a massacre began in Iraq of everyone who outwardly resembled the British.
Realizing that he could not stand against the British alone, Rashid Ali al Gailani turned to Hitler for help. Although Germany these news From Iraq, they were very encouraged, with the provision of assistance to the government of Rashid Ali al Gailani, or as it was also called, the "Government of the Golden Four", a problem arose.

The fact is that the sea route to Iraq was tightly closed by the British, Germany did not have a common border with Iraq, as well as with Iran. Nevertheless, Germany had troops, and therefore she turned to the Turkish government with a request to allow a limited German contingent to pass through Turkish territory to Iraq.

But the Turks refused. Then the Germans asked the Turks to allow them to at least smuggle through the territory of Turkey weapon to Iraq. In fact, Turkey refused this to Nazi Germany. Turkey also rejected the request of the Germans to use its airspace.

As a result, the issue of effective assistance to Iraq by Germany hung in the air.

Real story


According to historical On April 10, William Fraser was appointed commander of the British forces in Iraq, and soon the transfer of ground troops from India to Basra began. Already on April 12, 1941, the BP7 convoy, which included 8 transports guarded by the Yarra sloop (HMAS Yarra), departed from Karachi. On April 17, a British battalion from Karachi was airlifted to the RAF Shaibah air force base near Basra.

On April 17, a British convoy entered the Shatt al-Arab River, and at 09:30 on April 18, troops began to unload in Basra.

On April 18, the transfer of troops over the Karachi air bridge to the Shaiba Air Force Base was also completed.

On April 19, the unloading of British troops in Basra was completed, without encountering any resistance from the Iraqis.

So, in reality, the British brought troops from India to Iraq and, starting a march from Basra, took Baghdad by the end of May. On May 31, 1941, the mayor of Baghdad signed an armistice between Britain and Iraq in the presence of the British ambassador. British ground and air forces occupied the most important strategic points in Iraq. Then, the military contingents involved in the suppression of the anti-British uprising in Iraq were soon used by the British command to occupy Syria and Lebanon, subordinate to Vichy France.

As a result, by the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, the Germans in the Middle East and Asia Minor did not have a single square meter of territory under their control.

virtual history


Now let's consider what would happen if Turkey responded to Germany's request to allow a limited German contingent to enter Iraq through Turkish territory.

So, virtual reality - Turkey in April 1941 let German troops into Iraq through its territory. Fortunately, the Germans could comfortably travel directly from Vienna to Baghdad by rail. Turkey also provided the Germans with its airfields, including in the east of the country, not far from Iraq (and from Baku with its oil fields too).

In virtual history, as a result of joint German-Turkish assistance to the pro-Nazi government of Iraq, the British counter-offensive against Baghdad was stopped, heavy fighting began in Iraq, as a result of which the British troops in Iraq were defeated. As a result, a pro-Nazi regime led by Rashid Ali al-Gaylani was firmly established in Iraq. Syria and Lebanon remained under the control of the pro-Nazi Vichy government. In Iran, let me remind you, a rather pro-Nazi shah also ruled.

For the British command, there was a real threat that the Germans could strike in the direction of the Suez Canal from Lebanon and Syria through Palestine. The unenviable position of the British was seriously aggravated by the fact that the Germans got the opportunity through pro-Nazi Iran to provide assistance to the Indian fascists, of whom there were more than enough in India.

In real history, the Germans on March 31, 1941 in Libya dealt a powerful blow to the British,
On the night of April 4, Italo-German troops occupied Benghazi without a fight, and on April 10 approached Tobruk, which was surrounded by them the next day. The attempts of the Italo-German troops to seize Tobruk on the move were unsuccessful, and they directed their main forces towards Egypt. On April 12, troops entered Bardia; on April 15 they occupied Sidi Omar, Es Sallum, the passage of Halfaya, and the oasis of Jarabub. On this their progress in real history stopped.

And in virtual history, fighting heavy battles in Iraq not so much with the Iraqi army as with the Germans, the British can no longer transfer Indian troops from India to all fronts of the Second World War. On the contrary, the British high command is forced to reinforce British troops in India, from where reinforcements were sent to Iraq.

As a result, in virtual reality, the British troops in Egypt did not receive reinforcements. On the contrary, the British command was forced to send part of its already meager forces from Egypt to cover the borders of Palestine and Transjordan from Syria and Iraq.

But it did not help. In Palestine, under the leadership of the Jerusalem mufti, an anti-British uprising broke out.

The Germans, with the support of the military contingents of Vichy France, struck from Syria and Lebanon, and within a week, having passed Palestine, which had rebelled against the British, they found themselves near the eastern bank of the Suez Canal.

From the west towards Cairo, Rommel threw his troops to the weakened British units.

British troops surrendered in Egypt on May 31, 1941.

The British fleet was locked in the Mediterranean, with no bases other than Malta and Gibraltar.

Francisco Franco begins the blockade of Gibraltar, the Germans set up their guns on Spanish territory near Gibraltar, targeting the Strait of Gibraltar.
In the name of salvation fleet, locked in the Mediterranean Sea and several hundred thousand British prisoners taken prisoner in Egypt, on June 5, 1941, Churchill resigned and left for Canada.
The new British government on June 15, 1941 entered into a truce with Germany.

That's it, virtual reality.

A week before June 22, 1941, the USSR was left alone, without future allies, under the threat of attack not only from the West, but also from the south.

The Germans have Iranian and Iraqi oil. From Turkish, Iraqi and Iranian airfields, German bombers simply get not only our oil fields in Baku, but in the Maykop area. The USSR did not yet have other sources of oil at that time.

After Britain's withdrawal from the war, the United States sits exactly across the ocean.

Japan prefers to act together with Nazi Germany against the USSR.

The Italian, German and French (Vichy) fleets enter the Black Sea on June 21, 1941.

In view of the threat of a Japanese attack, the USSR cannot transfer anything to the West.

And, it would seem, what a trifle - the Turks did not let the German limited contingent into Iraq.

Air bridge


But this refusal forced the Germans to look for ways to transfer at least weapons to Iraq by air.
An air bridge to Iraq could well be established from the territory of the Italian islands in the Aegean Sea. Or after the capture of mainland Greece - from Greece. But it was necessary to fly taking into account the need to fly around Turkish airspace. You can’t fly around Turkey from the north, as you run into the territory of the USSR. This means that it is possible to go around the airspace of Turkey only from the south.

That is, first you need to fly from mainland Greece to Vichy Syria.

However, on this route there are two islands - Crete and Cyprus, which, in turn, are very unpleasant and dangerous for the Germans British air bases.

In reality, Germany made attempts to send planes to Iraq. But these were isolated attempts, and sometimes ended unsuccessfully - the planes crashed.

Hit by time trouble, Hitler gives the order to land troops on Crete. Since he still cannot reach Cyprus.

Hitler's order is carried out, and on May 20, 1941, a German airborne assault was landed on Crete.

Despite initial difficulties and significant casualties, the Germans managed to force the British to begin the evacuation of troops from Crete to Egypt on the evening of May 28. And by May 31, 1941, the Germans were able to finally and completely capture Crete.

But, let me remind you, it was on May 31, 1941 that the British were able to regain control of Baghdad.
The Germans didn't make it! And the war went the way it went in reality.

Another effect of the German operation to capture Crete


The point is also that during Operation Mercury, the German landing units lost only about 4 thousand people killed and missing, plus almost 3 people were wounded. Losses of military transport aviation also catastrophic: out of 500 military transport aircraft that took part in the operation, only 185 units remained in service; after Crete, the Germans were left practically without their transport aircraft.

After the end of Operation Mercury, General Student was called to the Führer on the carpet. Hitler, having learned about the losses, was furious, shouts and reproaches against the Student were heard from the huge office of the Reich Chancellery. As a result, Hitler forbade any further large-scale landing operations involving the German Airborne Forces. Including in the future war with the USSR.

As a result, in the Great Patriotic War, despite the numerous reports of our military (especially in the first months of the war) about thousands of German landings allegedly thrown out in our rear with tanks and guns, in fact, the Germans did not land a single operational landing, not even a single operational-tactical one. The top of German achievements is the deployment of small sabotage groups to our rear.
55 comments
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  1. +5
    22 November 2022 05: 41
    If mushrooms grew in the mouth, it would not be a mouth, but a mushroom garden.
    1. +3
      22 November 2022 07: 45
      And if grandma had personal belongings, would grandma be a trans grandpa... Or grandpa would be a trans grandma... fuck these LGBTQ+ perverts
  2. +4
    22 November 2022 05: 44
    Didn't like the article. Chaotic. And I'm not a supporter of alternative history. After reading the title of the article, I expected something different.
    1. +1
      22 November 2022 08: 44
      Quote: Mikhail Sidorov
      After reading the title of the article, I expected something different.

      And me too...
      "Turkey in the Second World War" - and the topic is very interesting, and not as shabby as some ...
      1. +1
        11 January 2023 09: 43
        German bombers simply take out not only our oil fields in Baku, but in the Maikop area. The USSR did not yet have other sources of oil at that time.

        1) Oil has been produced in Bashkortostan since 1932.
        2) The first industrial oil of the Orenburg region was obtained on July 26, 1937 - from well No. 1, which is located in Buguruslan.
        3) The first industrial oil on the territory of the Samara region was obtained in 1936 at drilling site No. 8 in the Syzran region, and in 1937, from well No. 10 of the Syzran oil field, from a depth of 1020 meters, the first fountain hit with a daily flow rate of 60 tons.
        4) Oil production of Tatarstan since 1944.
        5) Oil production in Udmurtia since 1945.
        Oil production in the USSR by region, 1940

        Republics and territories

        Oil production, thousand tons

        Total for the USSR

        31100

        Azerbaijan SSR

        22231

        Krasnodar

        2242

        Chechen-Ingush ASSR

        2229

        "Second Baku" (Bashkir ASSR, Kuibyshev and Molotov regions)

        1819

        Kazakh SSR

        697

        The Turkmen SSR

        587

        Sakhalin Region

        505

        Ukrainian SSR

        351

        Uzbek SSR

        114

        Komi ASSR

        70
      2. TIR
        0
        25 January 2023 17: 05
        In fact, the direction of studying history in this vein will bring much benefit to the modern understanding of the world. Analytics and creating a fork of opportunities for historical events is much better than memorizing history. Yes, and for the development of analytical areas in politics and the creation of forecasting institutions there is a base. It’s a pity retired historians branded this direction like that. This is not an alternative history - this is the study of all possible versions of historical events. Over time, for any modern event, we would have an approximate algorithm in which direction and with what consequences certain political steps are taken. Thanks to egghead historians for destroying this direction
  3. +7
    22 November 2022 06: 31
    I'm a big fan of "althistori" of course, but is there a different resource here?...
    1. +5
      22 November 2022 07: 57
      Hello Anton! hi
      The author showed that the course of the war is made up of such small and, at first glance, insignificant factors. I just had to write the right intro.
      1. +4
        22 November 2022 08: 05
        The author forgot about the number of Turkish divisions on the Soviet-Turkish border in 1942!
        And about the amount of chromium ore that Turkey sold to the Third Reich.
        The author didn't mention much...
        1. +4
          22 November 2022 10: 24
          There are many factors, but the author revealed the consequences of Turkey's specific actions well
          1. +3
            22 November 2022 12: 09
            The topic "the presence of forces in the Third Reich to support the uprising in Iraq" has not been disclosed!
            What kind of forces were the Teutons going to send to support their Arab associates?
            1. +2
              22 November 2022 20: 57
              This is an analysis and quite serious))
              1. 0
                22 November 2022 21: 17
                Isn't analysis required for a good "alternative"?
                More, as required.
                And then they fence the devil knows what ...
                Without going into research on the possibilities of industry or the mobilization resources of a particular country!
                1. 0
                  23 November 2022 10: 21
                  The Germans could well send to Iraq those forces that they eventually threw into the capture of Crete. Plus, you also need to take into account that the British managed to sink a fair number of German ships, on which the Germans tried to land amphibious assaults on Crete. These forces must be added to the airborne assault. There are already 10 thousand elite fighters.
        2. +1
          23 November 2022 10: 18
          And what does the Turkish divisions have to do with it on the Turkish-Soviet border in 1942. Yes, they were there. So what ? In the spring of 1941, when the German steamroller rolled along Turkish territory across Greece, Turkey kept almost its entire army in Thrace, in the Sea of ​​Marmara region and on the Turkish coast of the Aegean Sea. Since September 1941, after we (and England) sent troops to Iran, Turkey transferred a certain number of troops to the Turkish-Iranian and Turkish-Soviet border. You never know what. After all, we supported the Iranian Kurds. Which and the Turks were much to wag their nerves and do dirty tricks.
          But of course, the Turks sharply increased the number of their troops on the Turkish-Soviet border in the second half of the summer of 1942. Well, where do you see the problem? Who could then guarantee that our Soviet front in the Caucasus would resist the Germans? And the Turks were well aware that as part of the von Kleist army group in the second echelon, there was a corps of General Felmi, staffed by Germans who knew Arabic, Farsi and Turkish. That is, it was clear to Turkey that the Germans were not going to stop at the Soviet-Turkish border at all.
          So why are you denying Turkey the right to concentrate its troops on the direction of attack threatened by Turkey?
          1. 0
            23 November 2022 20: 52
            Don't portray the Turks as "possible victims" of Adolf and Company.
            They perfectly played their games with the Teutons and limes! Earned on both warring camps.
            Would the Germans be able to supply "mythical" troops to "help Baghdad" at such a distance to their native supply bases?
            During the fighting, ammunition, as well as food with medicines, "disappear like honey from a pot with Winnie the Pooh."
        3. 0
          31 January 2023 07: 56
          Quote: hohol95
          The author forgot about the number of Turkish divisions on the Soviet-Turkish border in 1942!

          These divisions did not cross the Soviet border and did not tip the scales on the side of Hitler and Nazism. Then the Turks remained faithful to the precepts of Ataturk on relations with Russia. If Bulgaria had not launched aggression against Yugoslavia and Greece, the German army could have become bogged down in Yugoslavia and Greece. 2 weeks or a month of delay would probably have given the British a chance to gain a foothold in the Peloponnese and Crete. Then the British would not have had to divert troops from Africa to the Greek front and it would have been possible to defeat the Italians in Libya before large German forces landed there. The invasion of the Wehrmacht in the USSR would have had to be postponed for 1-2 months, and perhaps then Stalin would have managed to stabilize the front on the Dnieper by the end of 1941, while maintaining the military factories of Kharkov, Mariupol and Donbass and the Southern Metallurgical Base. But the Bulgarians, as always, tried to take part in the destruction of the Russians.
      2. +4
        22 November 2022 08: 09
        Hi Albert!
        Let's just say that such opuses just need to be published on the appropriate resource.
        1. +2
          22 November 2022 10: 25
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Hi Albert!
          Let's just say that such opuses just need to be published on the appropriate resource.

          I don’t know, for me - the article is so interesting and interesting, it’s just written a little chaotically
      3. +3
        22 November 2022 10: 30
        Hi Albert! smile

        the course of the war consists of such small


        Not quite the Butterfly Effect, but still...
        1. +1
          22 November 2022 20: 58
          Greetings, Constantine! hi
          No, but still we would all taram pam pam
          The question is how quickly and with what sacrifices
    2. +9
      22 November 2022 09: 28
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Is there another resource here?

      I'm not sure anymore. The topic "what would happen if ..." is raised here more and more often. I am glad that so far it does not find a wide response among the masses, but if it is actively promoted, then the people will not stand it and turn on in full, and then
      missing house
      smile
      If the site administration wants to develop a new direction (the market is a market) - an alternative history - for this, I think, it is worth establishing a special section, and not using this one.
      1. +5
        22 November 2022 09: 49
        If the site administration wants to develop a new direction (the market is a market) - an alternative history - for this, I think, it is worth establishing a special section, and not using this one.
        Too many hemorrhoids.
        1. +3
          22 November 2022 09: 57
          Whether this hemorrhoids will pay off a question. If he brings money - why not? Personally, I would look into such a section, maybe I would write something ...
          For me, history has no alternative, because nothing in the world happens just like that, all events are interconnected, etc., therefore, it might be interesting to criticize some alternative constructions. smile
          1. +3
            22 November 2022 11: 40
            Alternative history is nonsense. Even without analyzing the entire article, let's take this passage
            Francisco Franco begins blockade of Gibraltar
            What pies? Franco was crazy? Franco won the Civil War, not only due to the help of Germany and Italy, but also due to the policy of "non-intervention" of Western countries. Why does he need a confrontation with Great Britain, the USA? I do not cite other facts that would indicate that Franco would have begun the blockade of Gibraltar. Yes, it is tempting, but I would like to return it, but is the game worth the candle? To the fact that there is no need to invent a virtual, alternative world. In reality, there is no earthquake, but there are victims. What the author describes, calling virtual history, simply could not happen.
            1. +3
              22 November 2022 12: 23
              Quote: kor1vet1974
              no need to invent a virtual, alternative world

              Someone who, but I definitely agree. laughing
              I don’t even want to criticize the author’s current constructions, they seem so far-fetched to me. But there are alternatives, in my opinion, worthy of attention, though they are vanishingly rare. As an example, I can cite Anisimov's "Option Bis". I liked the book, it's intriguing.
              In short, if you practice in a separate section in an alternative - I do not mind.
              1. +3
                22 November 2022 12: 35
                You know, I tried to switch to the virtual, but ... you start digging and it turns out that it couldn’t be otherwise. Well, maybe some of the nuances would change, but in general .. Let's just say that Columbus would still go to America, but not on three ships , but on two .. Magellan would not have died in a fight, but died of scurvy .. Something like that .. He quickly lost interest ... If there was such a section .. unless for banter .. smile
                1. +1
                  22 November 2022 14: 27
                  Quote: kor1vet1974
                  If there was such a section .. is it for banter

                  It all depends on how well the alternative person knows the real history, its laws and rules, how gifted he is as a researcher and experimenter. If you think about it, you can really find a number of accidents not predetermined by the historical process, which could not have happened and which, at least at first glance, could lead to a change in the course of history.
                  As an example, the death of Harald of Wessex at the Battle of Hastings is usually cited. Here, like, if he had not died, the Norman Conquest would not have taken place, and the whole history of Europe would have gone a different way.
                  Personally, all this seems to me absolute nonsense, of course, but sometimes it takes some effort to refute such an alternative construction, and it can be interesting. smile
  4. +2
    22 November 2022 08: 04
    That's it, virtual reality.
    But it wasn’t there. Like in some movie: So there was no earthquake! But there are victims!
  5. +2
    22 November 2022 08: 05
    remembering the experience of WWI, when Turkey almost disappeared from the political map of the world, Kemal wanted good neighborly relations with the USSR. But before WWII, Kemal died and the USSR, with the start of the Second World War, had to keep troops to protect the Transcaucasus, fearing a threat from Turkey. From the very beginning of WWII, Turkey helped Germany a lot, for example, it supplied very important chrome to Germany for waging war, and right up to Stalingrad itself and to Kursk, I looked on whose side victory would be there. There is no doubt that with Hitler's victory at Stalingrad, Turkey would have gone on a campaign in the Transcaucasus. And only after the Yalta Conference, Turkey bowed its head to Stalin's demands and Soviet warships went through the Black Sea straits. Turkey, like Sweden, had an undisguised desire to attack The USSR is on the side of Germany, and only the lessons of history were presented by our ancestors, when they already brutally beat the Swedes and Turks, kept these countries from direct invasion. But they helped Hitler as best they could. And its natural resources and even its geographical position.
    1. 0
      24 November 2022 16: 29
      Quote: north 2
      Turkey, like Sweden, had an undisguised desire to attack the USSR on the side of Germany
      Is there any real evidence for this? And in general, what is "Turkey wanted" or "Sweden wanted". This can be said only when talking about persons who have the right to speak on behalf of the state. In Turkey it was the President, and in Sweden it was the King. Well, or the Prime Minister of Sweden. So, which of them failed to hide his desire to attack the USSR? And what did it look like?
  6. 0
    22 November 2022 12: 06
    Turkey refused

    At that time, there was no people's government in Turkey. It was run by corrupt Western-backed puppets who did everything to protect their master's interests. This was the main reason why the junta refused, even if any solution meant total damage to Turkey in exchange for US interests, they chose to keep US interests. Let's not sugarcoat this decision just because it was directed against Russia's enemy, Nazi Germany. If it were Erdogan, he would do everything in his power to help Iraq gain independence from a European colonial power.
  7. +3
    22 November 2022 12: 14
    Dear Author!
    Would the Germans immediately begin to pour Iraqi or Iranian oil into the tanks of their "hypothetical" bombers?
    Were there refineries on the territory of these countries capable of producing high-octane aviation gasoline suitable for Luftwaffe aircraft?
    1. 0
      24 November 2022 16: 00
      In five days, the Germans would have calmly delivered the necessary gasoline by rail from Romania. In addition, refineries were operating in Abadan (Iran) and Bahrain by that time. These refineries produced aviation gasoline. I don’t know how high octane this gasoline was, but it could be made that way by adding additives. Which also quite quickly could be delivered from Europe.
  8. 0
    22 November 2022 12: 39
    В
    In reality, Germany made attempts to send planes to Iraq. But these were isolated attempts, and sometimes ended unsuccessfully - the planes crashed.

    The author undertook to write an alternative history, but did not learn the real one.
    But in reality, it was not "isolated attempts" that took place, but the creation of Fliegerführer Iraq - a Luftwaffe unit sent to Iraq in May 1941. It consisted of 12 Messerschmitt Bf 110 zerstörer fighters, 12 Heinkel He 111 bombers, 13 Junkers Ju 52/3m three-engine transport aircraft and a Junkers Ju 90 four-engine. All these aircraft, with the exception of two He 111s, arrived in Baghdad by May 15, 1941.
    1. 0
      24 November 2022 16: 01
      I know. And how to call "single" (like me) or "mass" (apparently that's how you want to call them) is a matter of taste.
  9. 0
    22 November 2022 12: 51
    But the Turks refused. Then the Germans asked the Turks to allow them to at least smuggle weapons through Turkey to Iraq. In fact, Turkey refused this to Nazi Germany. Turkey also rejected the request of the Germans to use its airspace.

    In fact, the Turks agreed, but demanded a decent chunk of Iraqi territory in return. While the bargaining was going on, the British managed to win.
  10. +1
    23 November 2022 01: 12
    The author showed on a specific example the complexity of the political puzzle in WWII. They changed one fragment and the whole picture could become different. Or maybe not. A multi-move... However, in fact, everything happened as it should have happened. The inexorable logic of history.

    Turkey, like the cunning Franco, decided not to get involved in a major European war with an unpredictable outcome, and Germany's victory was not obvious to serious analysts. As a result, they retained their countries and their political regimes.
    The comedian Duce, most likely, also had such a chance, maybe he would have sat out the Fuhrer, like Franco, but the zealous Italian jumped up. The ungrateful spectators publicly hung the political clown at a gas station.

  11. 0
    23 November 2022 09: 47
    Interesting information, I have not read these facts anywhere before, and the analysis itself, although it may seem unexpected, is quite realistic in terms of results. I myself also imagined this situation, what would have happened as a result of the success of the pro-German coup in Iraq. The British invasion of Iraq (rather strengthening their military presence) would have been unsuccessful if the Germans (from Turkey, of course) provided assistance to the Gailani government. Of course, one could forget about lend-lease along the route the port of Basra (Iraq)-Iran-USSR (the so-called "Persian Corridor"), but these are still flowers. Further, the bombing by the Germans of the oil-bearing Baku and the North Caucasus would have been inevitable. In practice, the final transition to the side of Germany and so the pro-Nazi Shah government of Iran, which preached the idea of ​​an Aryan community with the Nazis in Germany, would have been practically solved. Further, it is not difficult to predict the appearance of a German military contingent from neighboring Iraq (and even from Turkey, if the Turks had already allowed the Germans to do whatever they want) and Iran, and then the almost inevitable ground operation of the Germans (possibly with simultaneous landing) from Iran towards Baku. Let me remind you, from the Azerbaijani-Iranian border (near Bilasuvar) to Baku. distance less than 200 km. Then ... probably everything is already, by and large, the end of the war, because. during the Second World War, 80% of fuel for military needs was produced in Baku.
  12. +1
    23 November 2022 10: 26
    Quote: north 2
    And only after the Yalta Conference, Turkey bowed its head to the demands of Stalin and the Soviet warships went through the Black Sea straits
    Could you clarify which of our warships went through the Black Sea straits after the Yalta Conference and where?
    And the second. And where exactly could our warships go from the Black Sea through the straits in 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944?
    1. 0
      24 November 2022 16: 41
      No one sent warships of the Black Sea Fleet to other seas. But the icebreaker "Anastas Mikoyan" departed from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean and further to the Gulf of Anadyr!
      1. 0
        11 January 2023 18: 32
        hohol95
        Icebreaker "Anastas Mikoyan" left the Black Sea for the Mediterranean and further to the Gulf of Anadyr

        Yes, only the Turks set the condition for the icebreaker to go unarmed. Therefore, the icebreaker had to heroically pass the Mediterranean Sea, evading the attacks of German and Italian aircraft. And the warships of the USSR, the Turks would not have missed
  13. 0
    23 November 2022 10: 28
    Quote from Yorick
    In fact, the Turks agreed, but demanded a decent chunk of Iraqi territory in return. While the bargaining was going on, the British managed to win
    Interesting. Is there any documentary or memoir evidence of "bargaining"?
  14. 0
    24 November 2022 10: 00
    Quote: hohol95
    Would the Germans be able to supply "mythical" troops to "help Baghdad" at such a distance to their native supply bases?

    As an educational program, I inform you that in July 1940 the Baghdad railway was put into operation, along which on July 17, 1940, the first direct direct train went from Istanbul to Baghdad. "Taurus Express", which arrived at the Baghdad Central Station on July 20, 1940. Taking into account the fact that the Orient Express train from Paris to Constantinople reached in 80 hours, it turns out that in April-May 1941, the Germans could transfer military trains to Baghdad even from Paris already occupied by them in less than a week.

    Regarding this one of yours
    Don't portray the Turks as "possible victims" of Adolf and Company.

    And what is wrong ?
    If you do not know, I inform you that Hitler had plans to take over any remaining independent country in Europe, except perhaps Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Iceland. And then with respect to the last two - not a fact.
    But the fact that there were plans to capture Sweden, Switzerland and Turkey is a historical fact.
    Directive No32, issued by the Fuhrer to Germany on June 11, 1941 and providing for actions after the defeat of the Soviet Union, stated, in particular: "In view of the expected attempts by the British to strengthen their positions in the Near and Middle East, as well as to protect the Suez Canal, it is necessary to schedule an operation by the German armed forces from Bulgaria through Turkey in order to strike at the positions of the British in the Suez Canal area, as well as in the East."
    1. 0
      24 November 2022 20: 55
      "In Directive No32, given by the Fuhrer to Germany on June 11, 1941 and providing for actions after the defeat of the Soviet Union ..."
      After defeating the Soviet Union.
      And why not before the attack on the Soviet Union?
      The Teutons would spit on the leadership of Turkey and rush to the aid of Baghdad ...
      And then they would hit the USSR from TWO sides. From the West and from the Caucasus ...
      And woo ah la...
  15. 0
    24 November 2022 15: 04
    Quote: north 2
    Turkey, like Sweden, had an undisguised desire to attack the USSR on the side of Germany

    There are doubts about Sweden, but there are no doubts about Turkey. The USSR is the main ally of the new republic of Turkey, and only the owner could beat Germany even worse than the Anglo-Saxons. The victory of Germany over the USSR also meant the loss of independence for Turkey without a chance of salvation, and its leaders understood this well.
  16. 0
    24 November 2022 15: 43
    Quote: kor1vet1974
    Why does he need a confrontation with the UK, the USA?
    First, there is no confrontation with the United States. If you forgot, let me remind you that the United States entered World War II only in December 1941.
    Confrontation with Great Britain? Also not a fact. For after it becomes clear that the British are clearly losing in the Mediterranean, and before that they lost in France, and that Churchill will leave sooner, then there are no real threats for Franco. On the contrary, Franco thus ensures his participation in future peace negotiations between Germany (and its allies) on the one hand and Great Britain on the other. And it can count on some pieces of the colonies of Great Britain. In Africa for example.
    By the way, the policy of "non-intervention" proclaimed by Great Britain and France was actually carried out only by France, which had a common border with Spain. which France closed.
    And France, let me remind you that by May 1941 had already made peace with Germany.
  17. 0
    24 November 2022 16: 25
    Quote: north 2
    From the very beginning of WWII, Turkey helped Germany a lot, for example, it supplied very important chromium to Germany for waging war
    Firstly, not chromium, but chromium-containing ore. And secondly, not from the very beginning of WWII. Moderators are still watching the article about Turkish chrome, but I can say that the supply of chrome ruby ​​from Turkey to Germany was carried out from 15.01.1943/1944/XNUMX to the end of April XNUMX.
    In total, from January 15.01.1943, 20.04.1944 to April 56649, 5200, only XNUMX tons of lame ore were delivered to Germany from Turkey (and about XNUMX tons more to other Axis countries). Thus, the chromium agreement with Germany was far underfulfilled.
    For comparison, in 1943 alone, 56 thousand tons of the same ore were exported from Turkey to the United Nations countries.
  18. 0
    24 November 2022 17: 20
    Quote: hohol95
    No one sent warships of the Black Sea Fleet to other seas. But the icebreaker "Anastas Mikoyan" departed from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean and further to the Gulf of Anadyr!

    Yes. Only perhaps your remark would be more correct to address the nickname "north2", which wrote
    "north 2
    But only after the Yalta Conference Turkey bowed its head to the demands of Stalin and the Soviet warships went through the Black Sea straits

    And secondly, Mikoyan left the Black Sea back in November 1941. That is, long to Yalta Conference, and not after her.
    By the way, not one left. On November 25, 1941, at 3:45 a.m., a whole convoy consisting of an icebreaker, three tankers (“Sakhalin”, “Tuapse” and “Varlaam Avanesov”) and escort ships left Batumi for the sea. For some time they walked towards Sevastopol, and then headed for the Bosphorus. The head was the leader "Tashkent" under the flag of Rear Admiral Vladimirsky Behind him, in the wake - "Mikoyan" and tankers. To the right of the icebreaker was the destroyer "Able", to the left - the destroyer "Savvy". But warships could only accompany the caravan to Turkish territorial waters.
    The transition to the Bosphorus, 575 miles long, was planned to be completed in three days. On the morning of November 29, the Turkish shores appeared. 10 miles from the Bosporus, the guard ships raised the flag signal "We wish you a happy voyage" and turned back.
    On the same day, the caravan anchored in the roadstead of Istanbul. The representatives of the Turkish port authorities who arrived at the Mikoyan were not too interested in the cargo and did not look into the hold. We walked along the upper deck, in the cabin of Captain 2nd Rank Sergeev, we filled out the necessary documents in such cases, drank a glass of Russian vodka and left the ship. Although they could have done damage, since with the start of the war the icebreaker Mikoyan was pretty armed. It was equipped with seven 130-mm, four 76-mm and six 45-mm guns, as well as four 12,7-mm DShK anti-aircraft machine guns.
    In terms of the power of artillery weapons, the icebreaker was not inferior to domestic destroyers. Its 130mm guns could fire their nearly 34kg rounds at a range of 25,5km. The rate of fire in this case was 7 - 10 rounds per minute. At the beginning of September 1941, the re-equipment of the icebreaker was completed, and “A. Mikoyan, by order of the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, was included in the detachment of ships of the northwestern region of the Black Sea, which, as part of the cruiser Komintern, the destroyers Nezamozhnik and Shaumyan, the gunboat division and other ships, was intended to provide fire support to the defenders of Odessa.
    But, nevertheless, everything ended happily. As a result, having overcome a lot of problems, on August 9, 1942, Mikoyan entered the Gulf of Anadyr. And before that, in Seattle, it was qualitatively repaired and armed by the Americans. They dismantled the English cannon and thoroughly armed: they installed four 76,2-mm guns, ten 20-mm anti-aircraft guns, four 12,7-mm and four 7,62-mm machine guns.
  19. 0
    25 November 2022 09: 19
    Quote: hohol95
    "In Directive No32, given by the Fuhrer to Germany on June 11, 1941 and providing for actions after the defeat of the Soviet Union ..."
    After defeating the Soviet Union.
    And why not before the attack on the Soviet Union?
    The Teutons would spit on the leadership of Turkey and rush to the aid of Baghdad ...
    And then they would hit the USSR from TWO sides. From the West and from the Caucasus ...
    And woo ah la...
    Hmm .... I agree. Logically. Hitler might well have given a damn.
  20. 0
    26 November 2022 20: 31
    ARTICLE CORRECT! The events of the past must also be considered from the point of view of possible options.
    The scenario described in the article could have taken place.
    Turn out the Turks are ungrateful for the support they received from the young Soviet Republic.
    This is certainly not the only factor.
    Absolutely sure! If in the current events in Ukraine, not only the desired development of events was foreseen ...
    At least it's possible. ..
    Further, you understand. History, after all, does NOT teach anything
    1. 0
      11 January 2023 18: 53
      Chervony Biker
      Turn out to be ungrateful Turks for the support they received from the young Soviet Republic
      Only Ataturk was grateful. The rest only successfully traded with Russia, as with all others.
      Shishlyk-mashlyk, panymaesh!
  21. +1
    11 January 2023 18: 51
    Apparently, no one here knows about the FW-190 and Bf-109 in service with the Turkish Air Force. And when Franco was mentioned, for some reason they forgot about the Spanish "Blue Division" on the Soviet-German front. It's just that Franco had the prudence, screwing up with one division, to get out of the war. I think that he understood that he did not have enough resources to climb into the world dump. It is easier to be a "laying country", whose services are used by the Axis countries and England and the United States.
    Turkey was not such, but, as usual, sat on "two chairs" (and now continues the same policy). "Affectionate calf sucks two queens." A very advantageous position. Let them fight there, and we will get something from everyone, without doing anything specifically, but only giving vague promises.
    And also, I think, the Turks remembered the First World War, in which they lost a lot. Yes, and they also had few resources, and there were enough internal problems.
    Therefore, in 1941-42. there was definitely no reason for them to contact Hitler - it is not known how it will go further, but here the USSR is nearby, and the British, and there are enough of their own Kurds. And then, I think, they breathed a sigh of relief. There is a version that if the Germans had won in Stalingrad, the Turks could have entered the war.
    Perhaps. But I think, not to support Hitler, but to snatch Caucasian oil. No more. It's just business, baby! Nothing personal!
    Starting from the year of commercials 1925, the Turks in the first place are economic rather than political interests. It is very comfortable to sit on two chairs
  22. +1
    29 January 2023 08: 16
    At that time, the Turks turned out to be much more perspicacious than Nazi Germany!
  23. 0
    10 March 2023 12: 23
    Quote: futurohunter
    And when Franco was mentioned, for some reason they forgot about the Spanish "Blue Division" on the Soviet-German front. It's just that Franco had the prudence, screwing up with one division, to get out of the war. I think that he understood that he did not have enough resources to climb into the world dump. It is easier to be a "laying country", whose services are used by the Axis countries and England and the United States.
    It's more interesting here. That Spanish division, which fought against us in the area of ​​responsibility of the German GA "North", was not part of the Spanish army. This "Blue Division" was for Spain, as it were, an unofficial military unit. It consisted of the Spaniards, who, not being at that time the official military personnel of the Spanish armed forces, like voluntarily went to war against the USSR.
    A kind of peculiar response of Franco - the USSR to the international brigades that fought against his troops in Spain.