Say a word about the poor tanker

205
Say a word about the poor tanker

... A sharp bang, a blow, the noise of the engines stops and in the ensuing silence in the headset an order to leave the car. The catapult regularly shoots the chair into the air, hit, bump, then another hit when the dome opens, and that's all for now.

Then you just need to either wait for the arrival of the rescue party, or start moving. Such is the life of a pilot, either in a fighter or in a bomber. And the pilot has NAZ - an emergency emergency reserve, which is placed in an ejection seat. There is a whole container weighing 15 kg, in which there is a radio beacon, an inflatable boat, flasks with water, food and a bunch of very useful items: a signal mirror, a whistle, waterproof matches, a light cartridge, a compass, a machete knife, a flashlight and plastic wrap for collecting water.



Naturally, there is a first aid kit and weapon.

Until recently, the main weapon of the pilot was the APS-20, "Stechkin".


A very peculiar weapon, quite bulky (if with a holster-butt), but more accurate than the PM and having an automatic fire mode. He sentenced the APS-20 to his resignation, his cartridge, 9x18, which is not able to provide at least some armor penetration and a firing range of more than 50 meters.

Even in Syria, pilots took these pistols on a flight, it was with the APS-20 that Roman Filippov took his last fight, but long before that it became clear that a pistol is not a weapon for a pilot.

Then there was good information that the crews of Russian aircraft would be given PPK-20 - a Kalashnikov submachine gun (not Mikhail, but Viktor, son), as soon as the PPK-20 was put into service.


PPK-20 is a modification of the PP-19-01 Vityaz-SN submachine gun, almost ten years of experience in operating the Vityaz was taken into account in the design of the weapon, according to representatives of the Kalashnikov concern, PPK-20 is in many ways superior to modern models of such weapons .

But while the PPK-20 was not accepted into service, the pilots began to be issued ... PP-2000.


This is also a very interesting weapon from Tula, but its effectiveness is questioned by the pilots themselves. Yes, the PP-2000, invented for urban special operations, is very good for such cases: light weight, small size, can be carried covertly. But the problems are still the same: a weak cartridge that does not pierce anything. More precisely, an armor-piercing cartridge pierces, for example, a helmet from a distance of 15 meters. The whole question is - if it's not in urban areas, then the use of weapons at such distances looks like a matter of unscientific fiction.

In general, the affairs of the flight crew are so-so. In the future, a good PPK-20 is possible, in the presence of PP-2000, which is of no use in modern conditions, when even an ordinary soldier is packed in an “armor” of class 4 or 5. Moreover, the effective distance is less than 50 meters.

Now some readers will already begin to boil and look at the title: did the author mix up anything there?

No, everything is going as planned.

Pilots are the elite of the armed forces (although there are those who disagree with this), the most expensive branch of the military in terms of losses. Yes, a submarine costs much more than an airplane, but we (thank God) don't lose them that often.

The tank and its crew are consumables of modern combat. Are destroyed Tanks in completely different quantities than aircraft, and therefore there is not even much reason for joy in the press. Shooting down an enemy plane is an achievement, and a tank...


Meanwhile, the crew in the tank is the same as in the plane, that's why there are only three, and not one or two. And the tank also flies in battle, ATGM, NAR, RPG, scrap steel, a cumulative tank projectile, a mine or a landmine under the bottom - there are many methods for destroying tanks. And, unlike the planes that the elite are fighting, everyone who can afford it is hitting the tank. Because a tank on the ground is no less terrible than a plane in the sky.

... And here you are in the tank. in which it arrived. It is not so important what, the main thing is that horrible and shook. Our expert Alexei Kuznetsov shared his feelings from this with me, his head is blacked out and foggy, everyone’s organs are trying to vomit inside themselves, at best they see double in the eyes, there is a hum and noise in the ears. What to do? That's right, catapult.

It looks a little different, through the hatch in the turret and head over heels down, and then crawl away somewhere until it arrives again or the b / c detonates. In general, it is still a pleasure comparable to leaving the plane.

But if the pilot has at least a short period of time to recover while hanging on the lines, then the tanker, unfortunately, does not have it. He "catapults" directly into the battle, where there are a lot of people who want to take a figure in a black jumpsuit into sight.

And now the topic of the article goes on, because, unlike the pilot, the tanker has nothing. Well, almost nothing.

Let's start with the first aid kit. This is an important component, but not the main one in our review.

What should be in the tank, that is, the AB first-aid kit (military first-aid kit), which is equipped with all wheeled and tracked vehicles of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, is in fact about the same squalor as an individual first-aid kit for a motorized rifle, which we have already talked about. Here is AB (onboard first aid kit for aviation) already looks more interesting in all manifestations.

I was very surprised that in the composition of AB there is not even the most elementary anti-burn dressing or ointment. They say that vaseline appeared in the latest “modifications”, but this is already a fantastic luxury.

Comrade Lieutenant Colonel Kuznetsov did not immediately remember where this miracle first-aid kit was located in the tank, because they had their own, self-assembled ones. One for each crew member.

In general, leaving a tank is somewhat different from leaving a plane. There are nuances that Aleksey Kuznetsov would have better painted, but the fact is that it’s quite difficult to get out of the tank, especially if you look like a bag of minced meat after arrival. But you don’t fall out somewhere, either on your own territory, or on the enemy’s, you fall out into battle.

And here the question arises: what about weapons?

And it's sad. For the entire crew, ONE Kalashnikov assault rifle and four magazines in the pouch. Plus ten grenades.

But we emphasize very boldly with Alexei, this machine still needs to be groped, grabbed, also take a pouch with magazines (by the way, that’s all, hands are over and there’s nothing to grab bags with grenades) and fall out of the hatch. If the tank is already on fire, it's not for the weak.


But there is nowhere to go, because everyone wants to live. And without a machine gun in battle, there is nothing to do. And not only in battle, between battles, as practice shows, there are also situations in which it is better to be armed.

And here - one machine for three ...

Of course, this is a problem that tankers are trying to solve. Of course, every good crew has three machine guns, because this is a matter of survival. And it’s great that they have it, I won’t dwell on it on purpose, the main thing is that there is something to fight back at least in principle, although the tanker, as the same comrade Kuznetsov said, is a very bad infantryman. But if the head turns on after a shell shock, in case of contact with enemy forces, it can shoot a little like that.

And now we will talk about weapons aiming.

AK-74M with a folding frame butt is our everything.


As a weapon on the battlefield, it is quite normal and meets (mostly) modern requirements, of which the most important thing is that it can inflict injury on the enemy and thereby facilitate the process of survival for the tanker.

And, very importantly, the AK-74 can do this at a distance of 50 to 100 meters. Even the Terminator will not be able to shoot at a long distance after such a shake-up. And an ordinary person ... But it's better than a pistol or a pilot's submachine gun. "Kalash" can kill or injure, well, or simply scare away.

But there is a nuance in our question. These are the dimensions of the AK. Of course, with a folded butt, with an open magazine, he was still all right in terms of ejection. And, given that from the tower the machine gun will most likely just fly to the engine room grate or to the boxes with spare parts, because most likely its owner will drag one of his colleagues in misfortune out of the hatch, AK is good at this.

But the shops for AK are somewhat not that convenient. If you look at the drawings, the diameter of the hatch for the same T-72 is only 56 cm. Just take it and figure out for yourself how it will be convenient for you to squeeze into such a hatch with a machine gun and a pouch. And if we look at the T-62, which was recently praised by a number of "experts" (including ours), then there are, as it were, two hatches and three people in the tower. Draw your own conclusions.

In general, the situation is as follows: a person who is in a certain degree of prostration needs to leave the tank through a hatch of a small diameter, having a number of vital items with him:
- weapon;
- Equipped shops to it;
- grenades (preferably);
- first aid kit;
- a walkie-talkie (this has not yet happened, but it will appear).

And all this must be squeezed through the 56 cm hatch.

Let's start all in order.

Weapon. It was not in vain that I looked in the direction of submachine guns, because they are compact and this is their main advantage. However, a low-power cartridge will not give a chance to survive in battle. Still, a submachine gun is a police weapon directed against terrorists and other phenomena that do not walk in armor of 4 or 5 classes.

A compact weapon for a tanker is something like the German MP-7.


Not under the frankly wretched cartridge 9x18 or 9x19, which can do nothing with modern armor, but it is an intermediate one, if not 4,6, like in Heckler and Koch, but 5,45x28 or 5,45x30. The main thing here is not the stopping effect of a 9-mm bullet, as in the PP-2000, but armor penetration and range.

Yes, there will be certain hemorrhoids, but in the end, the tanker will receive a weapon that is capable not of pounding into a bulletproof vest with peas, but of piercing it, greatly puzzling the carrier. Survival on the battlefield.

In addition, here is another important fact: the pouch with magazines is in the tank "somewhere out there." Everyone has their own place. And from there it still needs to be pulled out, having felt it, which also takes time. And b / c in a burning tank will not wait, it's checked.

What can be offered? You can offer a cartridge for which it will not be necessary to bend the magazine in the same way as it is done in the AK-series. Then you can easily and naturally sew pouches on top of the tank overalls. Only not on the hip, because you can still catch on, but lower. On the shins. Stupid? Not at all. It would look better on the hip, but if it weren't for the sunroof. And so, below, the store will not interfere much, and you can place a pair on each leg.


Like this, just not like that. Below and sew two compartments into the leg.

An inexpensive idea, but Kuznetsov and I thought about it for a long time. Indeed, the shops in that place will not bother you much, and if some people start talking about dirt and everything else, then everything is simple: what about crawling with shops on your chest? It's the same on the legs.

Hands freed, you can really take a pouch with grenades. Moreover, no one forces you to run around with shops in your pants, right? Before the fight, he met, but everything is with you. And you can catch a couple of grenades.

Medicine chest. Usually a tanker has it in his pocket for a Makarov pistol. Let it stay there, everyone knows that in this pocket it is either she or something no less useful. But the first-aid kit is also time to invent. With modern means, both anti-burn and anti-shock.

Walkie talkie. At the commander. Small-sized, but at the same frequencies, because if the tank is a khan, then the neighbors will tell the commander of the unit on the radios that “the 102nd is all. Absolutely everything." But as soon as the crew opened the cords from the “talking hat” to the boxes with radio stations, that was all. Considering that sometimes there are considerable distances to the location, plus the general condition, it would be desirable to simply report to the direct command that the crew is alive and relatively healthy.

But there is also a second aspect. For example, such a crew began to move to its rear, and then it ran into an enemy group, which made a detour maneuver. Shell-shocked tankers can only either die heroically, or no less heroically calm down and wait. In general, the radio station should be on "their" frequencies. So that just some sob could ride along the edge of the battlefield and collect those who crawled out for the purpose of delivery to the sanitary battalion.

Of course, given how things are with us with this matter (walkie-talkies) in the army in general, an unrealizable thing.

Bulletproof vest. An insanely useful thing, especially when the tank is already everything. Yes, the thing is, the tanker has to move a lot while sitting in the vertical. That is, bend and unbend. Moreover, this applies to any member of the crew.

The usual armor here will not be entirely appropriate, the lower segment will interfere. You need something light, a class for the second or third, nothing more. But it is necessary, because an unprotected body in conditions when the enemy hits the tank from 5,45 mm to 152 mm, that is, it makes sense to protect the tanker at least from fragments. Small, but vile, which give automatic guns BMP / BTR.

The pilot is easier. He has a chair in which 15 kilograms of vital things. The tanker has nothing, moreover, in a good way, he should be equipped according to the principle "I carry everything with me." That's right, then there will be a chance to survive and return to duty again.

As a result, we ended up with a kind of tanker of the 21st century: in a light armored bra or short body armor, with a small-sized machine gun or submachine gun, but with a cartridge capable of killing or incapacitating a modern infantryman, with a personal first-aid kit built into overalls and with a radio station.

In general, the picture is quite. It would be nice to see such tankers who can not only inflict damage on the enemy, but also in the event of a loss or damage to the tank, having the opportunity to leave the battle, reach their own or call for help and after a while return to duty.

The time of using meat in wars has passed, we also just need to correspond to the spirit of modernity. In practice, and not at parade-applied exhibitions.
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205 comments
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  1. +68
    28 October 2022 04: 49
    How many light years, how many light winters ... this question is being discussed, but the "elephant" is still there. How long the SVO has been going on, it has been going on with a creak, but the process of increasing the production of weapons is underway, and somehow they didn’t take much care of equipping the crew members of combat vehicles ... And it’s not just about weapons adapted to the needs of the crews and first aid kits. The infantry equips its equipment with metal carbines in order to save the wounded, but this has not yet been introduced into the equipment of the crews, they still offer to use medical straps that require someone to enter the combat vehicle and let them through there already body. Real shame.
    But these are all the lives of our soldiers and officers.
    So that's a lot of work. It is necessary to abandon the famous and recognizable cloth helmets, with the transition to helmets, such as motorcycle helmets, the prototypes of which were already created and tested back in the USSR. The crews must be equipped with goggles, from the same "Warrior", which are able to save a person's eyes from small fragments and from fire. Clothing must be made of a material that can hold the heat of the flame and not burn.
    The weapon, structurally, should allow the fighter to quickly leave the car through the hatch, for which it can be used as a screw magazine or constructively make the assembly with the connected magazine swivel.
    And most importantly, all property must be located immediately on the soldier, and not be scattered around the fighting compartment or control compartment. A shell-shocked man saving his life may not have enough time to look for him.
    1. +12
      28 October 2022 08: 00
      https://topwar.ru/116224-kombinezonam-tankistov-vernuli-chernyy-cvet.html
      1. This is about the tanker's fireproof overalls ... we have already discussed how the new helmet was also included.
      2. Have you considered the option of storing an emergency kit outside of the armor? With automatic shooting when leaving the car?
      1. +12
        28 October 2022 08: 55
        But did not consider the option of storing an emergency kit outside the armor? With automatic shooting when leaving the car?

        Shooting at an undetermined distance in an undetermined direction on the battlefield will not be effective. In a box outside the tank, property can be easily damaged by fragments of ammunition or be engulfed in flames when leaving the vehicle ...
        1. +10
          29 October 2022 05: 42
          Inside the tank, it can also be damaged. There is always a place in the stern where you can place a reserved NZ, which would be convenient to get from any side, and even a shell-wounded tanker. And getting out of the tank with all the necessary ammunition is unrealistic.
          Of course, ideally, this needs to be addressed in a comprehensive manner, by creating new tanks, with leaving through the rear hatch, but in our realities this is not even a fantasy.
          But to weld a suitcase with NZ in a convenient place in any tank is quite possible even in combat units.
          1. 0
            29 October 2022 10: 11
            Inside the tank, it can also be damaged.

            The chance of such damage is quite small relative to the possibility of damage to the box from the outside. Numerous photographs of tanks after the battle show how attachments were torn off, broken, lost, destroyed by enemy fire.
            And getting out of the tank with all the necessary ammunition is unrealistic.

            But he jumped out of the tank and immediately pressed himself to the ground, crawling away from the tank in parallel. This is more pleasant than poking around in a box outside the tank under fire when enemy bullets whistle overhead.
            Of course, ideally, this needs to be addressed comprehensively, by creating new tanks, with leaving through the rear hatch

            Or creating a streamlined weapon for tankers (as well as attaching it to the uniform) so that when leaving the tank it does not cling to everything. Look, PPK-20 from the article in the photo is all "toothy" even with respect to AKSU. It will definitely stick. It would be better if the PP2000 was modified for a more powerful cartridge or something based on the AKSU was invented.
      2. +4
        29 October 2022 07: 55
        I’m not a tanker, but I served in the second company in Chechnya at PRP 3, an interesting piece of protection is not what, but in combat formations with infantry fighting vehicles you have to move from all the weapons of a serious PKT. so all of us, except for the radio operator who was sitting in the stern, had a good edema apparatus for the AKS, in principle, from the word at all. we made the armor ourselves, we took the standard one and took out the armor plates, then the grinder and it turns out a segment that we sewed ourselves into inserting from another armor or side sheets and also sewing. you take out the Kevlar lining from all the armored pieces that are out of order and also put it on. according to the principle of a brigantine, they collected scales on rivets. does not interfere with movement and does not protect badly from fragments and stray bullets 5,45
      3. +2
        30 October 2022 14: 50
        They considered that the concept was invented in the union to shoot a trapezoidal capsule with a rescue bk / nz in the stern between the tracks, in the mid-80s, the idea was good, but postponed until later. And recently, in the United States, an evacuation system was proposed in the crew's armored capsule, and also in the rear of the tank. True, the creators calculated that in relation to modern ones with internal combustion engines or gas turbine engines, this is problematic, but when using a hybrid scheme in tanks, where a pair of internal combustion engine generators on the sides behind the tracks will provide power to electric engines, as well as batteries, it’s quite working. When modeling this system, it was possible to conditionally evacuate by shooting an armored capsule with a crew crawling into it a hundred meters from the tank, with non-lethal overloads, though so far in theory. And again, in theory, it is possible to bring the shooting to several hundred meters by sequential initialization of charges. Well, judging by the fact that Abrams-x will be released in the near future, which will be a hybrid according to its scheme, it is quite possible that this system will go to the test
    2. ada
      +9
      28 October 2022 18: 05
      Quote: svp67
      ... And most importantly, all property must be immediately on the soldier, ...

      In the 80s, subjects of this direction began to disappear from periodicals, which clearly indicated the beginning of some work on it in the military-industrial complex abroad. By this time, it became clear that an integrated approach was needed not only to the development of uniforms and equipment for military personnel with individual elements of body armor, etc., but its combination and modularity. This applied not only to the needs of the ground forces, but also to aviation and the Navy. There is no doubt that some research and experimental work was carried out everywhere, but it is obvious that the desired result has not been achieved by anyone. I believe, not because of the scarcity of scientific, design and engineering thought or the insufficiency of production and raw materials, but because of the negative balance of costs / calculated result and the constant postponement of decisions on this issue.
      But time goes by and things change. When, in the late 80s, I saw sailors on board a US ship in overalls of different colors, I immediately remembered the previously published materials and realized that we had practically no movement in this direction. And when I myself had to operate the weapons and military equipment, hung with everything, like a Christmas tree, it became clear that this was on a level:
      Quote: svp67
      Real shame.

      I would like to draw your attention to the fact that earlier, for the crew members of aircraft, NK and submarines, ground armored vehicles and a number of others, with a closed volume - a cycle of operation during the period of intended use, a bunch of a protective suit set with elements of a space suit, control of weapons and military equipment, communications and management, life support, rescue, self and first aid, and in some cases personal weapons, which should have increased the level of tactical properties and other characteristics, including the stability of both the objects themselves and the troops (forces) as a whole. Separate elements already exist, but this is not a modular complex for genera and types of aircraft.

      Sooner or later, but there will be a "fusion" of a person and weapons and military equipment through his intermediate shell-complex on a soldier. For tanks, I'm afraid a change in architecture is inevitable, but I think that a transitional compromise solution for existing models is also possible.
      Tankers are courageous people, but this alone is not enough.
    3. +2
      29 October 2022 17: 02
      I agree that everything you need should be on the soldier. Moreover, when leaving the wrecked car, the crew is already far from being in a cheerful state. Here we recall the experience of German paratroopers who left the plane with one pistol. Weapons and ammunition were placed in special containers and dropped separately. Experience has shown that in a combat situation it is necessary to have everything with you as much as possible. Even special landing assault rifles FG-42 were developed. And the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, more than ever now, needs to correct the mistakes of peacetime. Not to introduce office uniforms with "Pinochet" caps, but to equip the armed forces with real, adequate to the conditions of modern military operations, equipment.
    4. 0
      6 November 2022 18: 59
      Have you ever been inside a tank, the same T72? it’s cramped there for someone dressed in winter, you can just climb into a pea jacket, but get out quickly, well, that’s still trash ... Therefore, no matter what they say, there is so little space in the tank that many crews carry all their stuff in boxes on the armor, and weapons and the rest is good. And when leaving the tank, there are more chances to get to the weapon if it is not demolished by a hit, but this is a chance, at least some.
      1. +1
        6 November 2022 20: 39
        Quote from Plumbarius.
        Have you ever been inside a tank, the same T72?

        PT-76, T-55M, T-62M, T-64A, B, T-72A, B, T-80B, U, UD, T-90A ... These are the tanks on which I had to serve and operate. And if it comes to that, then the insulating gas mask during underwater driving takes up much more space, and nevertheless, during light diving, it is in it that the tank is left through standard hatches
        1. 0
          10 December 2022 16: 09
          Did you leave the car during the shelling of military weapons? I assure you that the speed with which you left the car and the one with which you leave in combat differ significantly, and if some crap in the diving equipment is hooked on some crap from the tank ... this will be the last thing you will understand .. .
          1. 0
            10 December 2022 16: 42
            Quote from Plumbarius.
            and in case some crap in the diving equipment is hooked for some crap at the tank ...

            The main thing here is not to rush and not to....sya, but to eliminate the hook and emerge. You are like children really. Didn't they go through light diving training, or what?
  2. +3
    28 October 2022 05: 16
    Why not make this whole set with weapons, a first-aid kit and armor as part of the design of the tank in order to instantly pull it out and when leaving it, it should be at arm's length in accessible proximity. You could even make a small catapult for ejection to the gun.
    1. -23
      28 October 2022 06: 44
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      You could even make a small catapult for ejection to the gun.

      In tanks, the turret catapults itself when the BC detonates, you can attach a set of weapons, first-aid kits, and other goodies to it from the outside or store in the turret niche.
      1. +32
        28 October 2022 07: 10
        . In tanks, the turret catapults itself when the BC detonates, you can attach a set of weapons, first-aid kits, and other goodies to it from the outside or store in the turret niche.

        Do you think it was a good joke?
        No.
        1. +5
          28 October 2022 07: 36
          Alex welcome hi It seems that even the crews of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles and Artoy Msta S cannot provide the MO with Ratnik 3k Kits sad
          1. +15
            28 October 2022 07: 48
            Quote: Alexander Galaktionov
            crews of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles and Artoy Msta S

            In addition to warriors, the question is why not all materiel was protected from trophying. For example, Ukrainians did not master 2S19M at all. Everything is trite and simple - a block for periodically changing passwords is built into the LMS. What prevented you from doing the same for the T-72B3 and T-80BVM? Obviously inertia - the "contractors" recruited according to the advertisements could not master this.
            1. -2
              28 October 2022 07: 52
              Well, put a signaling signal, that if someone else climbed then broads
              1. +5
                28 October 2022 08: 02
                Quote: Alexander Galaktionov
                Well, put a signaling signal, that if someone else climbed then broads

                A block with a periodic change of passwords must be put on the LMS, they steal them, like this T-72B3M.


                1. 0
                  28 October 2022 08: 06
                  Can you show what kind of block and what it blocks?
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. 0
                      30 October 2022 00: 59
                      Quote: Bad_gr
                      As I understand it, we are talking about a fire control computer.

                      Which can always be reflashed, like any computer
        2. -1
          28 October 2022 08: 15
          Alex, what do you think if these anti-javelin gratings are attached to the dz as on the sides, not the main one, but the one in the covers? what
        3. 0
          28 October 2022 09: 30
          You are absolutely right, the joke is not funny from the word at all. hi
      2. +4
        28 October 2022 07: 29
        Outside armor???? And what will be left after arrival?
        1. -1
          28 October 2022 07: 46
          Quote: garri-lin
          Outside armor???? And what will be left after arrival?

          In an armored turret niche as an option. As a rule, the crews have time to leave the tank before it is destroyed or captured.
          1. +8
            28 October 2022 07: 55
            Get out of the hatch and instead of sliding down, running away, lying down, will you have to trample on the armor opening that armored box, pulling out bundles of weapons? If they flew into the tank, then they are shooting at the tank. You may not have time.
            1. TIR
              +11
              28 October 2022 22: 28
              Armor is needed from fragments based on Kevlar and cover one plate of ceramic liver from large fragments. A hand-to-hand tank does not go to a distance. So for the crew, in 90% of cases, fragments and their own burning tank will be dangerous. Definitely, a first aid kit and a bk to AK need to be attached to this armor. But so that nothing clings. The nephew received 75% burns only due to the fact that the commander caught on the armor in the hatch opening when they left the saushka. As a result, I had to go down into the fire (the charges began to burn) and crawl through the passage in the fire to the shell-shocked driver and push him out. They managed to crawl away about 30 meters (they dragged the driver) and the shells exploded. Saushka on molecules. Indeed, under the overalls, the burns were not as terrible as on the hands and on the face. Thank God the face was collected well. So if, in fact, there should be infantry around the tank and an infantry fighting vehicle on duty behind to transport the wounded to the rear. The tankers will not have enough time for the AK and crawl out with it into the hatch. It is possible to mount it on the tower, but so that it grabs immediately and slides down
              1. +1
                29 October 2022 08: 06
                Armor is needed from fragments based on Kevlar and cover one plate of ceramic liver from large fragments.
                You yourself were sitting there inside the tank, well, at least an infantry fighting vehicle. So a solid plate hinders movement in a confined space. So my colleague, the reenactor, offered to cut the armor and make the brigantine essentially on rivets to Kevlar, so it immediately became easier to move inside and protect against fragments and bullets. there is some not some. with us, the cop armor for hidden wear made of titanium plates was a coveted trophy for the crews of the PRP 3.
                1. TIR
                  0
                  29 October 2022 16: 24
                  Kevlar armor and plate size to cover the chest, does not restrict movement at all. I had to leave the MTLB through the commander's top hatch. It takes 2-3 seconds per person. Moreover, the driver still manages to pull off the walkie-talkie, since he alone flies out through his hatch
                  1. 0
                    31 October 2022 07: 20
                    Well, mtlb, in principle, there are more places than in an infantry fighting vehicle or a tank, especially in an MTLBU it is even more, there it was not bad to move in full-fledged armor.
                    1. TIR
                      0
                      31 October 2022 16: 10
                      Well, tankers definitely need to have a Kevlar helmet for both NATO tankers and armor to protect against fragments (such as civilian concealed wearing). This is primarily protection from internal fragments, and from the outside from fragments of mines and shells. Shooting for the crew outside the tank is not as scary as fragments. Well, unless of course the tank does not drive insolently into the trenches of the enemy
                      1. 0
                        31 October 2022 16: 29
                        A helmet has long been suggested instead of a headset with a rigid frame.
                      2. TIR
                        0
                        31 October 2022 17: 59
                        It seems like they began to supply helmets to the troops. Saw footage
              2. 0
                29 October 2022 08: 54
                The situations are many and varied. There is no way to be ready for everything. Attaching a weapon to a jumpsuit is not an option. Well, it will not work to fix anything so that it does not interfere and does not cling to the edges of the hatch.
                And keeping it outside is debatable. Will lick the box with a shock wave and it is gone.
                1. TIR
                  0
                  29 October 2022 16: 28
                  No box needed! The crew will not have time to open it and pull out the AK and BK to it. It is necessary to mount straight to fix the AK to the armor. Moreover, the weapon should only be removed upwards. Not left, not right, not forward. Before the battle, install it on this fastener. Shoot on the march
                  1. +1
                    29 October 2022 19: 28
                    Well, it definitely isn't. A Kalash simply fixed to the armor will definitely damage what will damage the tank. Whether it's ATGMs or artillery.
      3. +3
        28 October 2022 08: 24
        In tanks, the turret catapults itself when the BC detonates, you can attach a set of weapons, first-aid kits, and other goodies to it from the outside or store in the turret niche.

        Not funny at all fool
      4. AUL
        +3
        28 October 2022 09: 02
        Quote: Alexander_Snegirev
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        You could even make a small catapult for ejection to the gun.

        In tanks, the turret catapults itself when the BC detonates, you can attach a set of weapons, first-aid kits, and other goodies to it from the outside or store in the turret niche.

        It would be nice, of course. But only this niche should be very easily accessible to everyone. For there is no time to mess around with locks and keys. They will take it away, there are always enough gouging in the army.
        1. TIR
          +1
          28 October 2022 22: 35
          Somehow, next to the hatch, it is necessary to mount the AK on the top of the tower. And before the battle, remove all capital latches. So that only those remain that will make it possible to take it only up without unfastening any fasteners. I pulled it up and it's already in my hand
        2. +1
          29 October 2022 05: 52
          Trite to remove the castle before the fight.
      5. Qas
        +1
        29 October 2022 01: 18
        You're stupid? When the turret is torn off the tank by an internal explosion of ammunition, only the memories of his relatives remain from the crew. Someone to save at that moment.
    2. -12
      28 October 2022 07: 15
      It is easier to create sets of furniture and give them to partners with the possibility of detonation in hours.
      from the Yanuk got Zele's office and... Fse. There are no wars. The stool exploded.
      Fse?
      Tankers are tractor drivers.
      Is the rural mentality changing? With glonass and other condos in combines.

      ... ???
    3. +8
      28 October 2022 15: 06
      Excuse me, of course, but who are you talking about all the convenient and necessary devices for tankers now? Those who remove the T-62 from storage?
    4. +12
      28 October 2022 20: 54
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Why not make this whole set with weapons, a first-aid kit and armor as part of the design of the tank in order to instantly pull it out and when leaving it, it should be at arm's length in accessible proximity.

      By the principle of pilots? The tanker sits on the set, and during the evacuation, he pulls out behind the tanker, on the straps.
      Most likely, it will be useful only if the former tankmen open a company for the tailoring of a "tank warrior" and other, targeted ammunition. From the officials of the Moscow Region, it is useless to wait - they did not burn. And "he who is full, he does not understand the hungry."
    5. 0
      31 October 2022 15: 09
      Comrade expert, what is a gun and what does it look like?
  3. +12
    28 October 2022 05: 31
    In general, the author writes about ergonomics.
    Ergonomics of Survival.
    And that's right. Because the times are different and to take care of the survival of the crew of a tank / armored vehicle should not just be escaping, but someone else. Including the designer of the machine.
    Why not announce a competition for private businesses on the topics raised?
    I have no doubt that there will be those who wish to participate.
    There was such a private enterprise of Cuirass in the city of Perm.
    Yes, it is still there.
    Produced and produces, including bulletproof vests
    The private initiative was noticed and in previous years the enterprise carried out orders through the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
    Here is an example of positive cooperation between the state and the private trader.
    Especially if it is properly motivated.
    1. +15
      28 October 2022 08: 42
      By the way, what prevents you from making the uniform of a tanker outwardly (from a distance further than 10m) extremely similar to a simple motorized rifle? So that a tanker crawling to the rear does not attract the fire of all enemies who do not want the crew to survive and get a new tank for them?
      1. +14
        28 October 2022 11: 05
        Quote: eule
        By the way, what prevents you from making the uniform of a tanker outwardly (from a distance further than 10m) extremely similar to a simple motorized rifle?

        Ooooh ... I remember what a cry was raised when they tried to give the tankmen camouflage instead of instrument black. How, they encroached on time-honored traditions. laughing
        But seriously, already in 2017 the combat uniform of a tanker in cantemurii was camouflage, everyday and technical - black overalls.

        For everyday work with their vehicles, tankers now have light, very comfortable and practical black overalls. If the work is in the park, then a black beret is on the head, if the field trips, then the classic headsets.

        If they have to participate in hostilities, then tank crews put on special tight overalls of spotted, so-called digital coloring. They differ in that they do not burn and protect from small fragments. In the event that the car is disabled and the crew is forced to leave it, a special color scheme will reduce the visibility of people in enemy vision systems. On the head, instead of a headset, there is a helmet made of durable composite materials.
        © bmpd
        But whether this diversity has reached the linear parts outside the Arbat district - that is the question.
        1. -4
          28 October 2022 15: 14
          Quote: Alexey RA
          But seriously, already in 2017 the combat uniform of a tanker in cantemuria was camouflage, everyday and technical - black overalls.

          They deservedly provided the court guards with new uniforms. They also participate in parades. By the way, it should be noted the great contribution of cantemuria to the unification of the tank fleet of the Russian Federation through the lend-lease of the T-80U to Kyiv partners.
    2. +1
      29 October 2022 10: 39
      Why not announce a competition for private businesses on the topics raised?
      I have no doubt that there will be those who wish to participate.

      Here the question becomes interesting, of course there will be those who wish to participate, but the conversation is not in participation, but in the end result, therefore the survival of the crew should be included in the terms of reference for the designers! And most importantly, this task should be the second after the combat characteristics!
  4. -2
    28 October 2022 05: 34
    Yes, there will be certain hemorrhoids, but in the end, the tanker will receive a weapon that is capable of not pounding into a bulletproof vest with peas, but piercing it, greatly puzzling the carrier.

    You might think the "Viet Cong" in pajamas will catch the pilot.
    Then there was good information that the crews of Russian aircraft would be issued PPK-20 - a Kalashnikov submachine gun
    So good that the Fighter-bomber, together with the Razvedos, is twisting a finger at the temple, and they are keenly interested - "Ksenia" is all, will they not be given out to the flyers?
    1. +7
      28 October 2022 11: 07
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      So good that the Fighter-bomber, together with the Razvedos, is twisting a finger at the temple, and they are keenly interested - "Ksenia" is all, will they not be given out to the flyers?

      So "Kalashnikov" has a new small-sized machine gun, it has already been discussed at VO. It's just that someone wants to sell the army first the PP, and then sell the machine gun as well. wink
    2. 0
      29 October 2022 13: 12
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Yes, there will be certain hemorrhoids, but in the end, the tanker will receive a weapon that is capable of not pounding into a bulletproof vest with peas, but piercing it, greatly puzzling the carrier.

      You might think the "Viet Cong" in pajamas will catch the pilot.
      Then there was good information that the crews of Russian aircraft would be issued PPK-20 - a Kalashnikov submachine gun
      So good that the Fighter-bomber, together with the Razvedos, is twisting a finger at the temple, and they are keenly interested - "Ksenia" is all, will they not be given out to the flyers?

      A couple of PLCs and PPK-20s were chosen by the pilots themselves, real pilots. The categorical requirement is that the cartridge for the pistol and machine gun must be the same. Shooting from PPK-20 at a distance of 50-75 m is easier than from Ksenia. The basic training of pilots is by no means rifle. PPK-20 - in a cup, PLC - with you.
      1. +1
        29 October 2022 14: 29
        Quote: Comet
        A couple of PLCs and PPK-20s were chosen by the pilots themselves, real pilots. The categorical requirement is that the cartridge for the pistol and machine gun must be the same.

        No need for fairy tales! FB - a real pilot, twists his finger at his temple, about the PP-20. Because, unlike "real" fairy-tale pilots, he understands the difference between machine gun and pistol cartridges.
        Quote: Comet
        Shooting from PPK-20 at a distance of 50-75 m is easier than from Ksenia.
        Yes? and why? What about 100? What about 150? And what about the action on body armor? Bullshit about easier to shoot does not need to be rubbed.
        Quote: Comet
        PPK-20 - in a cup, PLC - with you.
        Automatic machine (AKS-74U) with the dimensions of PPK-20, nothing prevents it from being placed in a cup.
        1. 0
          29 October 2022 15: 24
          [quote = Vladimir_2U] [quote = Comet] A couple of PLCs and PPK-20s were chosen by the pilots themselves, real pilots. The categorical requirement is that the cartridge for the pistol and machine gun must be the same. [/quote]
          No need for fairy tales! FB - a real pilot, twists his finger at his temple, about the PP-20. Because, unlike "real" fairy-tale pilots, he understands the difference between machine gun and pistol cartridges. [/quote]
          I do not personally know the FB, but I personally know the pilot from the Su-17M3 who passed through Afghanistan. And the categorical requirement for the unification of ammunition was developed even then.
          [quote = Vladimir_2U] [quote = Comet] Shooting from PPK-20 at a distance of 50-75 m is easier than from Ksenia. [/ Quote] Yes? and why? What about 100? What about 150? And what about the action on body armor? Bullshit about easier to shoot does not need to be rubbed.
          [/ Quote]
          1. Chuck momentum is less.
          2. And you still need to get to 100-150 meters, especially when running.
          3. The 7N21 cartridge pierces the bulletproof vest 6Zh86-2 from the barrel from a distance of 60 m with a frequency of 100% (or 1).
          The pilot's armament is designed for a sudden collision with a patrol of 2-3 people, or to slow down the pursuers. To fight with a capture group equipped with "full-size" small arms with appropriate fire training for a pilot without a chance. Just try to get away.
          [quote = Vladimir_2U] [quote = Comet] PPK-20 - in a cup, PLC - with you. [/ quote] An automatic machine (AKS-74U) with the dimensions of PPK-20 does not interfere with putting it in a cup. [/ Quote] [/ quote]
          These 1.5 cm differences allow the PPK-20 to be placed in the cup differently than the AK-74U, leaving more free space for the other. It is necessary, after all, to mark out a supply of water (and there is never enough water), a supply of food and ammunition.
          1. 0
            29 October 2022 18: 29
            Quote: Comet
            and I personally know the pilot from the Su-17M3 who passed through Afghanistan. And the categorical requirement for the unification of ammunition was developed even then.
            I don’t see the connection, did a pilot you personally know voice it? Well, are you aware that the spirits of SIBZ did not have any? And that the requirements for armor penetration have changed a lot since then. Apart from the simple lack of sense in unification, even if the cartridges are suitable, which is not so. Because STORES are different!

            Quote: Comet
            1. Chuck momentum is less.
            With a single shot, it is generally uncritical, especially since the 5,45 is a low-impulse cartridge. And it is generally not recommended to shoot in bursts with "by no means shooting" training.

            Quote: Comet
            2. And you still need to get to 100-150 meters, especially when running.
            What? "Shooting back" or what? And how to hit 50 meters while shooting back while running?

            Quote: Comet
            The 7N21 cartridge pierces the bulletproof vest 6Zh86-2 from the barrel from a distance of 60 m with a frequency of 100%

            6B5-12 (Zh-86-2) 6B5-12 - provides protection for the back and chest from bullets from APS, TT, PM, PSM pistols and shrapnel, has enhanced anti-fragmentation resistance. A simple bullet 5,45 sewed this BZ at a distance of aimed (300m) shooting.

            Quote: Comet
            The pilot's armament is designed for a sudden collision with a patrol of 2-3 people, or to slow down the pursuers. To fight with a capture group equipped with "full-size" small arms with appropriate fire training for a pilot without a chance. Just try to get away.
            And what are the advantages of PPK-20 under these conditions? The weight is the same, the dimensions are the same, even the cartridge weighs almost the same! 9,5 vs. 10,5 grams! But the overwhelming superiority in armor-piercing and accuracy from 100 m. And the enemy, knowing this, will not pursue so zealously.
            Quote: Comet
            These 1.5 cm differences allow the PPK-20 to be placed in the cup differently than the AK-74U, leaving more free space for the other. It is necessary, after all, to mark out a supply of water (and there is never enough water), a supply of food and ammunition.
            They forgot the tent, These 1,5 cm will not solve anything, in extreme cases, the DTK should be made shorter, or even removable. By the way, the PBS, which the PP fans are pushing on, is also removable once, and what is important, it will not work two times with the 7N21 supersonic pool.
            Bullshit your PPK-20.
  5. +15
    28 October 2022 05: 56
    Damn mavlin! Can only recruit people who have passed the front line into all these control structures? And then, the impression is that people who have only completed the full course of DOOM, or tanks, are sitting in the headquarters.
    1. +13
      28 October 2022 06: 12
      And this is a modern feature of our country. The leaders are not the one who is more literate or more experienced, but the one who ... you know who.
      1. +22
        28 October 2022 06: 45
        Our leaders have seen enough videos with episodes of how a “roofbreaker” arrives in a tank, nothing is needed there anymore, the crew collectively undergoes a “high-speed cremation rite”. So they think that nothing needs to be done, because "everything is deaf as in a tank." Now she rules, fie on her, economic feasibility. If the infantry is "cannon fodder", then the tankers are generally "cannon dust or ashes." So why save him? As long as "effective managers" run the country, no one will do anything. As for submachine guns under the new cartridge. It is possible to design and manufacture prototypes. But no one will mass-produce them, it is not economically profitable, we have gentlemen's capitalism. In the first place is profit, not the needs of some tankers.
        1. +5
          28 October 2022 07: 20
          Everything is built from the patron.
          They can make a slingshot, but pp ... Why?
          1. +6
            29 October 2022 01: 33
            Quote: antivirus
            Everything is built from the patron.

            You are right, 9x18, 9x19 .... these are cartridges not with a pointed bullet (more for the police than for the armed forces). As for the tankers. It is not necessary to carry 74 magazines, 5,45 are enough and a set of "combs" is a device for equipping the magazine, it equips the magazine once or twice. Considering that the task of the tanker (after hitting the tank on the battlefield) is to survive, it is necessary first of all to protect the back from bullets and splinters. Clothing - overalls with an exclusive hook, made of non-combustible fabric, with gloves made of the same fabric. Communication outside the tank. A portable radio station of the Kenwood type, if desired by the customer, can be mounted in a helmet, and when the helmet is disconnected from the tank device, it will be able to switch to the helmet headset mode. Well, the helmet must be equipped with face and eye protection from external influences. hi
        2. +10
          28 October 2022 21: 27
          Quote: 2112vda
          We have capitalism gentlemen. In the first place is profit, not the needs of some tankers.

          So you need to deal with this capitalism ... am
          And I liked the article. To the point and easy to read, because it is written intelligibly (even for a submarine). good
          But science (ergonomics, military economics, survival theory, etc.) has not been canceled.
          But I (excuse the gentleman) are somewhat different, because I am not a tanker.
          The thing is how much money is allocated for this, what capacities and technologies the industry has, whether there are personnel ... and most importantly, whether there is a WILL to achieve the goals!
          Now the country needs passionate fans, who do not spare their belly for the sake of the cause! Such as the people's commissar of the defense industry D.F. Ustinov! Admiral Rickover, Kuznetsov, L.P. Beria... The thing is done by people... They need to be selected and placed in responsible areas for the sake of the CASE, and not on the basis of kinship and sycophancy, as it is now. Then things will move forward and tasks will be solved ... And demand should be tougher ...
          IMHO.
          1. ada
            0
            29 October 2022 20: 06
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            So you need to deal with this capitalism ...
            And I liked the article. To the point and easy to read, because it is written intelligibly (even for a submarine).
            I agree with capitalism it is necessary.
            And, tell me, please, how do you evaluate the suits of the submarine submarine (respectively, with shoes and headgear) on the issues of this topic with the features of the combat work of the submarine crew?
            1. 0
              6 November 2022 12: 49
              Quote: ada
              How do you evaluate the submarine FD suits (respectively, with shoes and headgear) on the issues of the indicated topics with the features of the combat work of the submarine crew?

              These are not costumes. It's RB!
              And it is very correct that the cap differs from the special hold only in the inscription on the pocket. In my time, it also differed with an "asterisk" on the Republic of Belarus, but there were no inscriptions (as on a bedside table) then. But, as you know, "the boot is higher than the boot", ... and the barracks crushed the cockpit ...
              About times... about manners! bully
              1. ada
                -1
                7 November 2022 03: 43
                Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                These are not costumes. It's RB!

                "Suit" is a term used in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation that defines a set of elements of clothing for a serviceman and GP, sometimes only outerwear, sometimes with wearable items (including underwear, etc.), shoes and headgear and elements of equipment such as a set of uniforms, including special.
                I would like to know how you evaluate these kits, if you have relevant experience in submerged operation.
                Che immediately something "boot, boot ...", well, "boot!" - but, I also have a "vest" in NZ from old times, but the "chain mail" will already be small, and I will have to climb into the "green" wassat
                So, what can you say on the topic, if it doesn’t make it difficult, of course?
                1. 0
                  7 November 2022 15: 18
                  Quote: ada
                  on the topic, if it doesn’t make it difficult, of course?

                  Yeah, it doesn't seem to be stressful. Our shirt is 100% cotton and consists of a jacket and trousers. Without refractory impregnation (at least with me) was. The Yankees have a jumpsuit, in the version of refractory impregnation. It was always annoying to sew on white collars on the jacket so that the collar would not get greasy ... In terms of color scheme, the “light blue” color of RB is somewhat annoying to me. For me, it would be better to have a dark blue jumpsuit, like the Ams. But these are probably extra expenses, so we have the way we have today. Ams will be richer in this regard. But the boat is hot and sometimes stuffy. Therefore, cotton with blue is apparently more hygienic ... bully
                  1. ada
                    -1
                    7 November 2022 19: 37
                    Grand Merisi (s). It’s clear on the collar, but I believe that they wouldn’t refuse to replace it with fastening not with a thread, but let’s say fastening. And what method of changing clothes and linen - for a washed shift or chemical cleaning is also present, is there a part of the replaceable set - only from a new 1 - 2 cat.? Is it necessary to protect the head and other open areas of the body, as well as joints and supporting surfaces, and a general increase in fire protection during combat work? Is there a need to adapt clothing to life-saving equipment?
                    Thanks in advance.
                    1. 0
                      7 November 2022 20: 59
                      Quote: ada
                      Thanks in advance.

                      Colleague, this is a private conversation. I suggest you go private. OK?
                      1. ada
                        0
                        7 November 2022 21: 16
                        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                        I suggest you go private. OK?

                        Oh, kay Yes
          2. 0
            6 November 2022 09: 16
            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            WILL to achieve your goals!
            Now the country needs passionate fans, who do not spare their belly for the sake of the cause!

            Their appearance in the right place with the right powers is absolutely impossible. They have nowhere to come from. The carefully built state machine of our state still completely rejects them. In principle, they cannot grow in it at least to some kind of command of at least something.
            Everything is simple. What is the goal of ALL leaders in our country? This goal is to grab. They simply cannot do otherwise, because in order to take any leadership position, they must give a lot of money at once. And every month to give more, a certain and also a considerable amount. Their salary does not cover such costs at all, it is even ridiculous to say. Where do they get that kind of money? Correctly...
            A professional who cares about a cause will spend money on a cause. In general, he doesn’t know how to steal “properly”, he didn’t study for it. So his bosses, who also need to send a higher share, and in this share there is also a part of him, will wait another month and throw him out. Knee under the back. That's the whole career of a pro who cares about the cause in our country.
            The top leadership of the country found it possible to arrange the system of power in this way. No real results, except for various kinds of imitations, can be done this way. Why did they do it, and continue to do it right now? Good question, huh?
        3. +5
          29 October 2022 06: 03
          You don't really need to design anything. Everything is. For example, the FN P90 is a Belgian submachine gun. Or our automatic machine OTs-14 "Thunderstorm". The only problem is the ruling Jewish gang. It is easier for them to replace inexpensive Russians with cheap Asians, and the fact that they themselves will then have a full kirdyk does not reach them.
    2. +4
      28 October 2022 22: 14
      No, you are wrong, these are several years of the hardest HSE and this is our everything ... SHAME ...
  6. +9
    28 October 2022 06: 14
    And with the rescue of the pilot, everything is not so simple either. One r / s "Komar" is worth it.
    1. +1
      28 October 2022 21: 00
      Right. And they shoot down mainly for the LF, but this is a completely different story.
  7. +8
    28 October 2022 06: 29
    by slightly changing the butt of the AKm, one magazine can be put into it.
    1. +2
      28 October 2022 07: 39
      Quote: also a doctor
      by slightly changing the butt of the AKm, one magazine can be put into it.

      Good idea! good
    2. 0
      28 October 2022 23: 01
      Even in folding we will clearly get a place for a spare horn! Good idea. Plus one horn on the electrical tape to wind. a total of three horns.
  8. +11
    28 October 2022 06: 43
    Why is PPK-20 so good compared to PP-2000?
    They are both chambered for the same 9x19 cartridge.
    The shape of the butt and the difference in the length of the barrel do not greatly affect its ability (more precisely NOTability) to penetrate regular infantry armor.
    In general, the current trend tends to be that PDW (both for tankers and pilots) should be under the same ammunition as for infantry.
    Overseas, even "arches" are offered for pilots, which are either collapsible in half or foldable three times.
    Is it really impossible to make the same modification of AK?
    1. +5
      28 October 2022 07: 36
      Under 5,45 × 39, a small size with adequate characteristics is only capable of in the Bull-Pall layout. This ammunition needs a long barrel. A collapsible model is also a compromise. For the reason stated by the author. After arriving in a tank, the crew has no brains and ballast in their heads. It is absolutely impossible to think from a concussion. Everything that will be done will be done on trained skills. When the survival instinct and the spinal cord govern. Collecting weapons from spare parts in this state is a very bad idea. May not be collected.
      And if you take the concept of PDW, then in Russia there are 5,45 × 28. OTs 32 dart. And even with a cut-off of three rounds and a magazine of 24. Work with ergonomics and a long barrel and you will get a good "hole punch" that the author is talking about. Although also a half measure. The tanker needs a full-fledged weapon.
      1. +5
        28 October 2022 09: 23

        A descendant of the AKS-74U AM-17 (small-sized machine gun):
        Weight, kg - 2,5
        Caliber, mm - 5,45
        Cartridge - 5,45 × 39
        Length, mm - 740 mm
        Muzzle velocity, m/s — over 900
        Rate of fire, shots / min - 700
        Sighting range, m - 1000
        1. +1
          28 October 2022 10: 00
          Muzzle velocity, m/s — over 900

          How with such a barrel length?
          1. +4
            28 October 2022 10: 10
            You have to ask Wikipedia. Hmm ... Someone copied the data without looking from something full-sized. Probably 750 m/s would be more correct.
        2. +1
          28 October 2022 10: 46

          A descendant of the AKS-74U AM-17 (small-sized machine gun):
          Weight, kg - 2,5
          Caliber, mm - 5,45
          Cartridge - 5,45 × 39
          Length, mm - 740 mm
          Muzzle velocity, m/s — over 900
          Rate of fire, shots / min - 700
          Sighting range, m - 1000

          A good option.
          In the meantime, you can use the AK-74U itself, for some reason the author did not mention it, but it is the main one in the engineering troops.
        3. 0
          28 October 2022 14: 16
          Still the store is short, in my opinion. Of course, there are fewer cartridges, but it is more convenient to manipulate weapons
        4. 0
          28 October 2022 17: 50
          You can write anything. This is essentially the same shortening. with a different mechanism. Doinna trunk plus 3 cm. Well, a lot of fashion in appearance.
          1. 0
            29 October 2022 20: 20
            Quote: garri-lin
            This is essentially the same shortening.
            Pay attention to barrel length
            And this is with a machine weight of 2,5 kg, with a caliber of 5,45 mm (it is based on the Dragunov machine gun)

            1. 0
              29 October 2022 21: 21
              What to ask??? Ksyusha is 20 cm. This is 23. Is there a big difference????
              Competent PR is not facts, but their successful presentation.
              AM 17 is a completely different system, but with capabilities not much higher than the old man's shortening.
              1. 0
                30 October 2022 10: 29
                With the same dimensions as the AKS-74U, a slightly longer barrel length, half a kilogram lighter, there is an option in caliber 7,62x39. There is a silent version (AMB-17) in 9x39 caliber (this is already in a niche where "Val" and "Vintorez" prevail).
                In general, a promising thing, if the troops do not reject it.
                1. 0
                  30 October 2022 13: 07
                  What are the cardinal advantages of the Zhanna system in comparison with the existing one.???
                  1. +1
                    30 October 2022 15: 11
                    Quote: garri-lin
                    What are the cardinal advantages of the Zhanna system in comparison with the existing one.???

                    And how are modern pistols dramatically superior to the century-old Colt M1911?
                    Normal evolutionary development of small arms.
                    1. +1
                      30 October 2022 18: 08
                      If I need a 45 caliber pistol, I will take the Colt 1911. There are things that are so perfect that they cannot be replaced.
                      Evolution is not exactly what applies to AM17. Evolution implies better adaptation to changing conditions.
                      This term does not apply to AM 17. It is not clear how he is better adapted. It is not clear even he is better adapted or these are just statements of selfish people .....
        5. 0
          28 October 2022 21: 25
          The machine gun is interesting, but Razvedos had a video about it - the designers still need to work with the machine. And we need it now. And since now, it’s easier for Ksyusha in body kit.
      2. +6
        28 October 2022 09: 33
        5,45x28 - does not exist. This is a hypothetical option, which, at the suggestion of the author, still needs to be developed.

        Dart - under 5,45x18. Muzzle energy is approximately the same as that of .22LR, penetration - only on "soft" (civilian and police) armor. What is able to hold an automatic cartridge (even if it is not armor-piercing) is guaranteed to hold 5,45x18.

        5,7x28 - foreign ammunition.

        And according to the collapsible version ... You can make 2 parts connected by a hinge in front of the store. Pull out and snap. Everything, you can shoot. Like this:
        1. +1
          28 October 2022 17: 59
          I really didn’t notice that I wrote 28. Thank you for correcting me.
          But I'll try to disagree with you. By lengthening the barrel, you can achieve an increase in speed and thereby increase energy.
    2. +7
      28 October 2022 08: 45
      The critical question is not that original non-automatic cartridges penetrate little, but that the enemy hears "strange" shots and understands that there is either an officer, or a tanker, or some other valuable animal. That is why the commanders carry a machine gun, like all other privates.
    3. +4
      28 October 2022 09: 58
      "Why is PPK-20 so good compared to PP-2000?"
      for these tasks, both are not in the arc. but you don’t have to invent anything - everything was invented before us-9A91, for any caliber
      1. +1
        28 October 2022 10: 04
        In the designation 9A91, the first digit just indicates the caliber.
        1. +3
          28 October 2022 10: 08
          "In the designation 9A91, the first digit just indicates the caliber"
          this is the basic modification "on the basis of the main 9-mm 9A-91 assault rifle, variants were developed chambered for 7.62x39 mm, 5.56 mm NATO and 5.45x39 mm"
          choose any, and you can without a silencer. and this 9mm cartridge is not 9x18, and not even 9x19, but quite 9x39
    4. +1
      29 October 2022 13: 24
      Quote: Pushkowed
      Why is PPK-20 so good compared to PP-2000?
      They are both chambered for the same 9x19 cartridge.
      ...

      They have different base cartridges: 7N21 for PPK-20 and 7N31 for PP-2000. For example, it is forbidden to shoot 7N31 from Yarygin.
      PP-2000 has a magazine for 20 rounds, PPK-20 - for 30. PPK-20 is more comfortable in the butt. PP-2000 is more of a police weapon for the city. The PP-2000 had cases of losing a store on a march. In Moscow, the PP-2000 is quite common with the police and the National Guard, it's just that the layman does not pay attention to it.
      1. +1
        29 October 2022 21: 26
        Are you confident in the statement that 7n31 does not fit Yarygin.
        Just recently discussed this topic with a "servant" person. He says that 7n31 is often shot at the shooting range.
        It surprised me.
        How confident are you in your statement? Just trying to understand where is the truth???
        Thanks in advance.
        1. 0
          19 November 2022 20: 23
          Quote: garri-lin
          Are you confident in the statement that 7n31 does not fit Yarygin.
          Just recently discussed this topic with a "servant" person. He says that 7n31 is often shot at the shooting range.
          It surprised me.
          How confident are you in your statement? Just trying to understand where is the truth???
          Thanks in advance.

          I know about the ban. At least he was in the noughties. But, as they say: "Shooting is forbidden, but you can." The bottom line is that the 7N31 was developed in the GSh-18 pistol complex, and its shutter mass is almost 4 times less than that of the PYa, and the spring stiffness is greater. The bullet of the 7N31 cartridge moves faster in the barrel and leaves the barrel earlier than the bullet of the 7N21 cartridge. Glock chambered for 9x19 "dies" when firing 7N31 between 1000 and 2000 shots. You can shoot, but...
          1. 0
            19 November 2022 22: 59
            I know about the essence of the bullet difference. I was surprised just by the information that they are regularly shooting. This is to the detriment of the weapon.
  9. +4
    28 October 2022 07: 00
    Yes, it seems that in the promised land "Uzi", "Mini-Uzi" and "Micro-Uzi" specially
    for tankers and special forces were developed. For simple infantry - "Galil" and
    Krav Maga techniques.
    1. +1
      28 October 2022 07: 45
      Quote: Private SA
      Yes, it seems that in the promised land "Uzi", "Mini-Uzi" and "Micro-Uzi" specially
      for tankers and special forces were developed. For simple infantry - "Galil" and
      Krav Maga techniques.

      No, the Uzi was adopted as a mass automatic weapon, Israel did not have machine guns then, the rest of the modifications are already at the peak of popularity, in fact, as a marketing product.
      "Galil" was "created" much later.
  10. +10
    28 October 2022 07: 18
    There is a concept of economic feasibility. What is more important - more drones, armored vehicles or night vision devices for infantry that are needed accurately and daily; or folding machine guns and armored bras for tankers to lie if something goes wrong? Resources are not endless. And so, well, in theory, of course, yes ... But no
    PS: but tactical glasses are needed in general by everyone in the war. Preferably non-flammable and non-freezing faces. Yes it is correct. For a semi-blinded fighter is almost a corpse, no matter who he is.
    1. +6
      28 October 2022 07: 49
      Yes, you can already see this economic feasibility of the Su 34 and Su 35 S throwing cast iron or nurses from cabling, it looks like the X-29TD and similar missiles have run out.
      1. 0
        29 October 2022 17: 57
        Well, that's precisely why they throw cast iron (50-100 times cheaper) and NURSs (20-30 times cheaper), because the economic efficiency when working across areas is incomparably higher than from launching homing missiles (fortunately, PNK allows you to do this quite effectively) .
        But with the MiG-31 it will not work - he does not know how to work on the ground.
        Unless with the Tu-22M3 - and then it would have turned out your way (the cost of a strategist's departure is too high to be used to throw a dozen or two "cast iron" from caboring (although it can).
  11. +3
    28 October 2022 07: 32
    There is a Ratnik 3k to add tactical fire-resistant gloves, a fire-resistant balaclava and goggles. There is really a question for a helmet and armor, if protection class 1br normally copes, then you can leave it as it is, if not, then bring it to protection class br 2 and anti-burn in the first aid kit should be by itself
  12. +9
    28 October 2022 07: 51
    Quote: U-58
    to take care of the survival of the crew of a tank / armored vehicle should not just be escaping, but someone else. Including the designer of the machine.
    .

    The designer must feel for himself everything that the tanker receives when various ammunition enters the tank hull and during evacuation from it.
    Then the mental abilities and innovations will increase by an order of magnitude.
    1. +8
      28 October 2022 09: 35
      The only serial tank, the designers of which were tankers, is the Merkava.
      1. +1
        29 October 2022 13: 30
        Quote: Pushkowed
        The only serial tank, the designers of which were tankers, is the Merkava.

        It’s just that Tal didn’t have combined armor, and acceptable crew protection could only be provided by the front location of the MTO. Plus a specific TVD.
    2. +4
      28 October 2022 21: 52
      The designer must feel for himself everything that the tanker receives when various ammunition enters the tank hull and during evacuation from it.
      Then the mental abilities and innovations will increase by an order of magnitude.
      I'm afraid that after this ... at first there will be no "constructors" left;
      and then no one wants to go to the "constructors" ...
      For such purposes, there are "testers", well, like stuntmen in a film studio ... Yes
      As for creativity. At the sight of a pistol at the forehead of many people with a "fine emotional-volitional organization", the brain simply melts ... and flows down with urine into the galoshes of trousers ...
      Now (alas!) the Rabfakovites from the people have run out, hardened and rubbed by life through the basements and gateways in the struggle for survival ...
      Today, other people, other conditions, other incentives. And not always even material...
      So, to paraphrase Semyon Semenych Gorbunkov: - "you have to look!" (c) sad
      1. +2
        29 October 2022 06: 11
        only the desire to seek, the ruling glistocracy does not. Talent must be cultivated, resources must be allocated... but where can one get them?! You can only take bribe givers away from your assholes, and this is not a good thing.
    3. 0
      28 October 2022 22: 23
      There, just shoot with blanks ONE (1) time, and after the hospital he will start thinking not with his ass, but with his head, guaranteed to be cured ...
    4. +1
      29 October 2022 18: 07
      God forbid. Kotin left the tank in conditions close to combat - but in his IS for five tankers there were only 1,5 hatches). Morozov showed how to quickly get out of the tank, blindfolded - but in his T-64, in order for the driver to get out of the tank, knocked out in the "gun forward" position, the turret crew had to manually turn the automatic loader and remove 6 shells and their cassettes. ..

      And the most convenient designs for leaving the tank were created not by tankers (and Merkava too) - but by those who went to the front and talked with tankmen (and not generals from the GABTU and their foreign counterparts)
  13. +2
    28 October 2022 08: 03
    The armor and machine gun for the tanker is the tank itself, and if it is damaged, it's like offering an infantryman to have one more armor plate under the main one and another machine gun behind his back, just smaller. For the ergonomics of using a tank, armor and an assault rifle are not suitable.

    Now what fits:
    I saw special slow-burning balaclavas, they don’t save for a long time, but they give an extra 10-15 seconds with open fire, in theory they shouldn’t cost much - /wiki/Anti-flash_gear, although they can also get stuck in hatches.

    What can you fantasize about?
    A fire extinguisher projectile so that an adjacent tank can shoot and extinguish at least an external flame
    Projectile with first aid kits and weapons for a similar use.
    Fireable tow rope so that you can try to pull the tank or tankers from the battlefield if there is no way to approach

    In general, like an infantryman in case of injury, a tanker in case of tank damage can rely mainly on the help of others.
  14. +7
    28 October 2022 08: 21
    And what did our command do and what did it do for 20 years, they only staged parades, why only now they began to finalize, finish during a special operation, this is still only a war with Ukraine, and if with NATO, then how, that they will give time for preparation, the one who wins ready, who foresaw everything, but it’s not like that with us, it’s not like that here, but there are no normal first-aid kits, not to mention the means of communication, and then we are surprised how it is, one of the strongest armies in the world, as stated, and is losing one position after another and all the time crying that what bad Europeans are supplying weapons to Ukraine, a bad dancer, you know what's stopping you. And we are going according to plan to prepare for the next parade
    1. -3
      28 October 2022 10: 35
      why are you fixated on 20 years of doing nothing? maybe even more? right?
  15. 0
    28 October 2022 08: 35
    Quote: antivirus
    They can make a slingshot

    Exactly. Use Californian balls as striking elements so that everyone is scared.
  16. 0
    28 October 2022 08: 39
    A) It is interesting to know about the availability of PP-2000 pilots)) about a year ago in a similar topic (news dated September 3, 2021) I wrote a comment:

    “As for me, the pilot will use it (personal weapon) as a last resort, as a last chance, mainly his task is not to be found (or rather found, but his own and preferably whole) therefore the distance of the shot is small and the lethality is not very important. So you need light weight and compactness, PP-2000 would do it better in my opinion. (The difference is Kalashnikov 3,65 kg PP-2000 is about 1,5 kg) types of ammunition - against living creatures, for example, if a pilot suddenly falls in a forest where wolves or bears will already be his opponent), you can take more ammunition - in case you need to hold out longer - the cartridges will run out and you are definitely a corpse. production and corrected his childhood sores."

    It's nice to know that we think alike with someone from the Moscow Region))

    And if it’s about tankers, then yes, tankers have a very small distance to the enemy, compactness and lethality are needed here. Perhaps some kind of shortened version of the "Vintorez" (9mm) without a silencer with AP cartridges ...?
  17. -4
    28 October 2022 08: 39
    And what prevents you from fastening a sling to your belt, two meters long, and there are already AKs on it, pouches and so on? I got out of the hatch, lying on the tower, pulled the "leash" and pulled out the weapon. And if you crawl, dragging a comrade, the machine gun trails behind without occupying your hands. Maybe add something like a bag or a cover so as not to get the weapon too dirty when crawling with the wounded, in general, the idea is clear.
    1. +5
      28 October 2022 10: 36
      Have you been inside the tank? Do you think it's so easy to pull something out of it with a rope?
      1. -3
        28 October 2022 17: 48
        Put the bundle on the seat, get out, pull out the bundle.
        1. +1
          28 October 2022 19: 34
          You didn’t answer the question, did you sit inside the tank?
          1. 0
            28 October 2022 21: 11
            I had to climb, but not to drive. T62 in the fire version, they developed something for them that did not go into the series, but that's another story.
  18. +3
    28 October 2022 09: 10
    For each tank platoon, it is desirable to have one tank support combat vehicle (BMPT) to evacuate the crews of damaged tanks. And this very BMPT should not have two empty places for grenade launchers, there should be three or even four empty places.
  19. +2
    28 October 2022 09: 54
    You can’t just make an AK with a shortened magazine for 20 rounds, and a slightly shorter barrel, but without problems like the AKSU (or not touch the barrel at all, if problems still appear), smooth out all the protruding elements, flags, etc.

    And the question on the AK-12 is the rail for the sights and the rear sight are on the cover of the receiver, it turns out to be rigidly fixed, not like on earlier AKs?
    1. 0
      28 October 2022 10: 02
      Quote: Maxim G
      And the question on the AK-12 is the rail for the sights and the rear sight are on the cover of the receiver, it turns out to be rigidly fixed, not like on earlier AKs?

      It is fixed more rigidly and it is more rigid, but the cover is a cover, so only the AR-shaped layout will save you from the problem with sights. As, for example, in the microwave:
      1. +1
        28 October 2022 10: 10
        Well, that's the question, what for did they do it, if there is a backlash.

        On hunting carbines, the Vepr is placed instead of the rear sight, although there is also a bar on the lid.
        1. +4
          28 October 2022 11: 10
          This is not because people in Kalashnikov are stupid and do not realize this. This means that the customer gave the go-ahead for this, which means that this is a compromise solution under the influence of some reasons. What are we going to massively equip motorized riflemen with optics / collimators? Not? Then what's the difference how they have mechanics there? In modern local conflicts, statistically, the number of spent cartridges needed to kill one person is calculated tens of thousands, and the share of shooting defeats among all losses is a few percent. And now, if now in the hands of the shooters called up from the reserve there are slightly more structurally advanced machine guns ... will this greatly affect these values?
          Here, in relation to the topic of the article ... we argue what is better for tankers as an EDS weapon. It seems like you need a machine gun, but a small one, but in terms of stats, so that it is not much worse than an infantry one. But the joke is that if it were possible to create such a machine gun, then all the infantry would also go with such ones first of all, since it is more important for them to have such a good machine gun than for crews / pilots / clerks / cooks. Another point is that by reducing the dimensions (barrel length), we will reduce the sighting line and complicate accurate shooting, and our tankers are not the most "pros" in shooting anyway (and plus the consequences of evacuation). Let's move on: statistically, to learn more or less accurate shooting (who really needs and is supposed to) it takes months of time and about several thousand rounds, and this is from full-size (400+ mm) barrels, but with us ... in general, it's clear. Do we have a lot of tankers, on average, shoot for service at all? Not? And what difference does it make to them then from what to miss?
          That is why spiesscouts are taught to detect surveillance, but they are not taught to get away from it. Fuck you get away from her. Fuck you, being a tanker / pilot, outside your formidable car, you will fight off shooters who have more experience / skills / trunks / cartridges. This is how people talk about war. If you're lucky, you'll survive, if you're not lucky... vae victis. Solving such a shitty cloud of conflicting problems on the scale of the Armed Forces for the sake of a slight increase in these chances is easy only if you look from the couch.
          1. 0
            28 October 2022 11: 14
            The rear sight is also not on a hard surface, but on a backlash.
  20. +4
    28 October 2022 10: 51
    Walkie-talkie. At the commander. Small-sized, but at the same frequencies, because if the tank is a khan, then the neighbors will tell the commander of the unit on the radios that “102 is all. Absolutely everything." But as soon as the crew opened the cords from the “talking hat” to the boxes with radio stations, that was all. Given that sometimes there are considerable distances to the location, plus the general condition, it would be desirable to simply report to the direct command that the crew is alive and relatively healthy.

    There is a third aspect - you need to be able to use walkie-talkies. Here crying murza for use in the field "Granites":
    It would be a “pocket R-159” (the power is the same), but the trouble is - as of the moment in the troops, where these R-169P1-01s have remained, and not decommissioned into a closet for resourceful ensigns, most often this just a useless brick. Why?
    First, batteries. They (suddenly!) have service life. Therefore, most often, the batteries at these stations are killed to death, and it remains only to thank the creators for unifying the batteries and chargers with the Kenwood KNB-15, which you can go and buy at reasonable prices.
    Secondly, antennas. The antenna of this portable device under the discussed operating range is a long “whip”. And, it has been proven by practice that it is absolutely impossible to force “real military professionals” not to carry the radio station by the antenna, waving it like a pendulum, not to whip negligent subordinates with all their might on the ass with this antenna and not to drive flies away from themselves with this antenna, apparently, something aware of their true military professionalism. Therefore, in the army, the antenna connector loosens very quickly and breaks off the board according to the motto "What will this connector do? IT'S IRON!"
    The bottom line is that a radio station with a formally attached antenna actually works without it, and while the user is yelling at the station for a long time, trying to shout to someone, he quickly burns the station's output stage. The station goes out of order, but, of course, it continues to turn on. "The numbers on the screen light up."
    1. +7
      28 October 2022 12: 32
      Baharak (Afghanistan), intelligence implementation. In the morning, the village is woolly, we are waiting in the mountains for the dushmans to start leaving the village along the paths. Somewhere an artillery gunner is sitting, who spotted the departing spooks (not on the path where we are). Artillery (D-30 battery) is located in the village, but the artillery gunner cannot shout to it from his walkie-talkie. Came out to us, but we do not get the same, contacted those who were sitting above us in the mountains. They got to the battery and told them what the gunner had asked for. The howitzer went off somewhere. The gunner corrected, went to us, we were on those on the mountain, they transferred them to the battery. They shot again. Then they began to resent from the mountain that it was not their duty to be a retro-translator, there were enough of their own tasks. Swearing, mat-remat. And the gunner did not come out to us (I think he sent us, somewhere, with such a connection).
      This is from here:

  21. 0
    28 October 2022 11: 22
    In general, it seems to be sensible ... A few little things, for example, that the flame arrester can be unscrewed, it will shorten it a bit, and in general the tankers need Ksenia, or better, a new shortening at 5,45. The flyer and the tanker are still not capable of waging a full-fledged battle, shortening is more to scare, but he is quite capable of breaking through the armor. So not just a scarecrow.
    Shops, of course, not on the hip - a fall on such a body kit will turn off your leg for at least a short while. And so - up to a fracture of the femoral neck, that's how they break it, and that's all - no shortening is needed anymore. But the armor, even Kevlar ... I don’t understand how they even crawl through the hatches, but in reality the armor will take off everything at once. hooked a couple of times.
    With walkie-talkies - it’s not clear, this is not a flyer, why the hell did the tank alone end up separated from its own, that it needs a walkie-talkie to tell where it is?
  22. +3
    28 October 2022 11: 41
    I read the article and the comments .... Surprisingly, everyone is trying to deal with the consequences, but not with the cause!
    The tank was hit, it is on fire, an ammo explosion is possible, a new hit is possible.
    Why is the tank on fire? Why is the tank not protected from the possibility of self-detonation of the ammo in case of fire? Why can the enemy shoot a tank that has stopped due to a malfunction, as in a shooting range? And yet, separately, why can the enemy use a tank abandoned by the crew for its intended purpose?
    These are the questions that need to be addressed. For example, carbon dioxide with crew breathing devices for five minutes, quickly rendering the BC unusable, insensitivity to arson, as an option, dumping the BC overboard, setting up an integrated smoke screen (opto, heat, radio) for the duration of the crew evacuation, autodetonation of the tank if evacuation is impossible.
    It is clear that all these are constructive solutions, they do not depend on the crew, but the technique is discussed here (in the sense, at the VO), and not the actions of the crew, respectively, and solutions must be proposed technical, technically, i.e. eliminating the cause, and not consequences. Otherwise, what's the point of all this chatter?
    1. +2
      28 October 2022 21: 28
      Because everything that was discussed before hitting the tank was not even hundreds of times, but hundreds of thousands - the design, cape, kazy, armor, etc., etc. But any vehicle will be hit sooner or later and its crew will be forced to evacuate.
    2. 0
      29 October 2022 05: 49
      Quote: Conjurer
      Why

      The tank is a combat consumable

      Everyone beats, and a shot at Pine from KK gives a ratsuha "I'm blind, I went"
      They are beaten up. And they hit often
  23. +4
    28 October 2022 12: 11
    The main task of the crew of a wrecked tank is to escape, and not to get out and turn into an equipped and trained motorized rifleman.
    The time factor is important here in the first place - therefore, everything should be an element of a suit or equipment, the maximum is fixed on an armchair - no further.
    Bronik? There won’t be tankers in armor, at least crack, climb into the tank, maybe it’s advisable to have pockets on the overalls on lindens, and sets of plates for them in a bag over your shoulder? A compromise, of course, but at least there will be an opportunity, if there is time, to make armor out of a suit. First aid kit? Each cook and driver should have their own, and even more so for a tanker.
    Armament? Something like AKSU 74 will do, maybe a small drum instead of flat magazines. I think that smoke bombs will not interfere with each member of the crew in order to deprive the enemy of aimed fire on their own. Wearable radio? Very desirable, at least from the commander, in order to navigate the picture of the battle and let you know about yourself, otherwise, it may turn out to be in the role of advanced aircraft controllers. As for the helmet - here it is necessary to decide on the MO, options are being developed, but, for some reason, nothing changes. Glasses as an element of a helmet. Flashlight, knife, compass, all sorts of little things - a set for the crew.
  24. +2
    28 October 2022 12: 24
    - Why do they need a tongue on the lid?
    Thought Leonid Ilyich, unscrewing the cap on a bottle of vodka
  25. +7
    28 October 2022 13: 56
    It makes no sense to talk about the supply of APS - it was quickly taken out of production. And when they tried to restore it, they couldn't get it to work normally.
    If the author is not satisfied with the APS, it is quite logical that he will not be satisfied with submachine guns either.
    I've been reading about another "intermediate" (between a pistol and automatic "intermediate") cartridge for about twenty years. Nowhere in the end, he was never adopted. No one will introduce another whole item in the range of ammunition for such a narrow task.
    So the AKS-74U is "forever". This is an analogue of both a carbine and a submachine gun, the shortcomings of which are much more sensitive in the police than in the army. Replace the "Ksyukhas" with submachine guns in the Ministry of Internal Affairs and return them to the army for the purposes for which they were developed, to arm those for whom the main weapon is certainly not an automatic machine, and for whom a pistol is still not enough.
  26. -4
    28 October 2022 14: 22
    Tanks must be protected by an active protection complex, as we were told a lot about them before the special operation, but we never saw a single one in battle.
    And if a tanker gets out of the tank, he will have a machine gun or there will be no chance of a successful skirmish with motivated trained infantry, he is very close to zero.
    In other words, the wrong issue is raised in the article.
  27. +10
    28 October 2022 17: 18
    The time of using meat in wars has passed, we also just need to correspond to the spirit of modernity. In practice, and not at parade-applied exhibitions.

    War will always be mud, blood and meat. Sadly, but it is not so much bad ammunition that makes a soldier meat, but the mediocrity of command.
    Also, why try to represent a lone ranger from a downed pilot, his task is to go to his own, evading ground combat. The same can be said about the tankers who left the tank, especially those who were burned and wounded. In any case, they will not be better on the grunt battlefield. Then why dream of armor-piercing weapons?

    Like others, in tank units? For example, the IDF, where the guys know about the war. So, they take a course for a young fighter, then they take a course directly related to their position in the tank crew (for example, a driver), then a 4-month run-in course for young fighters, after which they enter military service in various parts of Israel. Nothing special. There are no "space" weapons and miracle suits, but there is such a tank for its region as the Merkava, good organization and interaction.

    What does a tanker need? In fact, everything is simple, you service the equipment in the park - get a black tank, comfortable and practical overalls and take it on your head. Studying in the field, shooting, - replace it with a headset.
    You went to war, you go into battle, - instead of a black jumpsuit there is already a "figure", impregnated with a special fire-retardant solution. In addition, the material of such overalls also protects against small fragments, making the crew invisible to thermal imagers and other technical means of the enemy. To this, instead of a classic headset, a helmet made of composite material and a light body armor. And there is no need to imagine the crew that left the tank as a team on a desert island, you need the most necessary things that should be conveniently combined with ammunition.
    1. +2
      29 October 2022 13: 37
      Quote: Per se.
      The time of using meat in wars has passed, we also just need to correspond to the spirit of modernity. In practice, and not at parade-applied exhibitions.

      ... Like others, in tank units? For example, the IDF, where the guys know about the war. So, they take a course for a young fighter, then they take a course directly related to their position in the tank crew (for example, a driver), then a 4-month run-in course for young fighters, after which they enter military service in various parts of Israel. Nothing special. There are no "space" weapons and miracle suits, but there is such a tank for its region as the Merkava, good organization and interaction.
      ...

      Yeah, and we spent 2 hours in Wadi Saluki. Of the 11 tanks hit, 5 lost their course. Saved only by the enemy's lack of MLRS, aviation and artillery, as well as limited reconnaissance equipment.
      1. 0
        30 October 2022 16: 23
        Quote: Comet
        Yeah, and we spent 2 hours in Wadi Saluki. Of the 11 tanks hit, 5 lost their course.
        The miscalculation of the command was admitted, they underestimated the enemy. The lack of coordination between armor crews, infantry, close air support and artillery left the armored forces alone.

        The tankers themselves messed up, as noted, not a single tanker from all 24 tanks thought to use the smoke grenades of the tanks when they were ambushed, this was considered another proof that they were not sufficiently trained, and were poorly able to handle the equipment entrusted to them . The officers stopped and helped the crews of the damaged vehicles, instead of taking the rest of the tanks out of the critical point.

        Nevertheless, it was the Merkava (Mk.4) that saved the lives of many tankers.
        If these tanks were of an earlier generation, were not equipped with the latest technology and active self-defense systems, the losses would have been greater.
        In any case, there are fewer fools in Israel, and the lives of their soldiers are valued more.
  28. +9
    28 October 2022 17: 22
    Of course, the author will raise the necessary question, but the situation is such that bloggers collect pilots for overalls and normal walkie-talkies, and the infantry equips itself for its own money in a fucking military store. And against this background, it’s just fantastic that one of the high ranks about a poor tanker will say a word for equipment.
  29. +4
    28 October 2022 17: 23
    If you look at the drawings, the diameter of the hatch for the same T-72 is only 56 cm. Just take it and figure out for yourself how it will be convenient for you to squeeze into such a hatch with a machine gun and a pouch.

    kind of a problem...
    one must assume that the hatches in our armored vehicles are standard ...
    therefore, in the BMP-1 and in the tank, they are approximately the same (I have been to the T-54/55 more than once - I did not notice much difference in the hatches)
    regularly parachuted through the commander's hatch of an infantry fighting vehicle with full equipment of an infantryman - did not notice any special problems ...
    besides, in those days, the pouch was never worn on the hip - not even according to the drill charter - it is located on the right side, closer to the stomach at waist level ...
    and not an AKMS assault rifle, which the tankers then had, but a full-fledged AKM with a fastened magazine (as a rule) - did not interfere with getting out of the hatch ...
    as for "arrived", then in a shell-shocked state everything will interfere with you, even PM ...
    now to the question - leaves the car into battle ...
    that is why the tanker must have adequate weapons, not PP and other shnyaga ...
    it’s better not to find a Kalash (folding), only there should be at least three of them per tank, not counting pistols ...
    variants of the ASM “Val” type are possible, without a silencer, a short, light, lethal cartridge 9 * 34, a range of up to 400m, though care also loves cleanliness ...
    1. +3
      28 October 2022 20: 31
      I’m also wondering - why in the USSR and then automatically in the Russian Federation it was adopted in tanks (well, BMP_BTR) is dense (or, say, a super dense lineup) and it was accompanied by the selection of undersized (albeit broad-shouldered) tank troops (and try to load 85-100 mm artillery or pull clutches) it seems to me (after all, even crossed all the same it seems) the line-up with narrow hatches went from there (although God forbid I don’t understand how 56 cm improve the armor resistance of the tower, unlike say 70 cm) well then it’s bad (and often quite heroic .. in) well-fed recruits somehow managed to slip into the hatch, but now we still have 2020 (and not 1950) and the recruit is certainly not iron Arnie, but not his twin DeVito either ... so what .. after of the breakup 90s, the new T-90 was made in the same hatch sizes or the designers put on the crew (yeah with the device) give them performance characteristics and ergonomics (yeah, the corrupt girl of Imperialism like cybernetics and genetics) according to the residual (but I saw (at parades eats -t-but) our sufferer Armata has a hatch there, it seems, wider (il and wider) .. at amers (and deutsches) in the stern of the towers, the so-called knockout panels are made (this is when a sub-caliber scrap or ATGM gets into the BC, the panels flying up take the energy of the explosion up saving the crew (something like that) .and what prevents to do fired (when the integrity of the tower is already fucked up) a hatch with a ring of 15-20 cm .. and then people from the crew of a hot AK at least take PKM with you - you won’t get stuck .. but all our attempts to help the passans (yeah, our brothers who is in the tank) is the voice of a crying voice .. and the developers from Tagil are all up to ... how they riveted their jars with sprats (in the sense of tight ones) they will continue (because Armata is like a carrot in front of a donkey’s muzzle (this is in the sense of folklore and not our valiant BT RF) and fight like MIN until the middle of the century on the T-72_90 .. sadness
      1. +1
        29 October 2022 12: 54
        dense (or say super dense lineup)

        elementary Watson...
        Ergonomics and concern for a person have never been part of the task of our designers ...
        dimensions are important - the smaller, the "better" ...
        compare T-34 and Tiger ...
        in order to reduce weight and enhance protection - the armor was placed at an angle, hence the reduction in internal space while maintaining external dimensions ...
        Tiger "square" - inside the space...
        caring for the crew - they didn’t even have headsets / helmets - they fought in caps - there was no need to beat your head ...
        the dimensions significantly exceeded the T-34 ... but for protection it was necessary to increase the thickness of the armor - and this is weight, with all the consequences - there is no cross-country ability, many bridges do not hold (especially in those days), etc.
        the same song with Abrams - inside it’s like in a penthouse ... but he’s not able to “ride” himself, he needs a trawl, it doesn’t fit on the railway platform, again, bridges in Europe are not held, etc.
        as for the BC panels, etc., then in practice this is nonsense ...
        yes, the tower does not tear down, but the crew will not save ...
        but to the same Abrams, the tower is torn down by a conventional explosion on a land mine - Iraq
        you can see how it demolishes the towers of the same Leopard in Syria ...
        full of photos...
        so, this is a "school", compare all weapons, small arms for example - we can immediately see that the military ... and the western one is like a toy, beautiful - design, ergonomics, etc. you can put in a sideboard ... :)
        there was an American dock film about the T-34 and the Tiger - it showed the welding seam of the armor, perfect on the Tiger, on the T-34 like a bull pissed ...
        and the conclusion: they say the Tiger required a high-class welder who spent many hours on such work, and on the T-34 a "kid" could do such welding - if only he kept ...
        these are the approaches...
      2. 0
        1 November 2022 19: 56
        certainly not iron Arnie

        Tanker-driver :))
  30. +2
    28 October 2022 17: 25
    Dear author of "Roman Skomorokhov". I have been browsing this site with interest for several years, and your materials in particular, given the constantly growing military tension around our country. And taking into account also that I am still a reserve (registered) officer of 57 years of age, who received the rank of senior lieutenant t.v. after graduating from a civilian university, he did not serve in the army, but at the training camp he skated well on the T-55 and T-72 for a couple of tens of kilometers. It's just that we were very thoroughly trained then in the mid-80s by acting Afghan officers - from a major and older. All those problems that you wrote about here, they showed us in detail, and they showed us even deeper right on the spot ... well, it will be long. Suvorov bluntly said: "brevity is the sister of talent" - for the military, this is directly a matter of life / death. Because he is A.V. Suvorov wrote: "A minute decides the outcome of the battle, a lost day is equal to a lost war, a lost month determined the collapse of empires." - this is still in the 18th century! Therefore, I won’t talk about everything except weapons and clothes, you wrote it. But with the weapons of a tanker (YES AND A PILOT!), I think it is in today's RUSSIA that the question is simply UNSOLVED. Here is the defining moment: our swine attitude towards people is the legacy of 300 serfdom: a person is worth NOTHING, it is a consumable ("women still give birth"), but "equipment is very expensive" - ​​for the loss of absolutely unusable equipment in Russia under any circumstances - you know what will happen - even to a bandaged veteran? ... So that's what our instructor officers, who went through all the military conflicts of the times of the USSR, around the world told us. The same thing that has become clear now - with the current mobilization: "you don't need to feel sorry for people, you need to feel sorry for the materiel" - a long-standing Russian tradition, which they all experienced in their own skin. You, Roman Skomorokhov, rightly noted that now our pilots have been re-equipped from the outstanding Stechkin automatic pistol - to the “innovative-reformist” one that is inferior to it in every way - according to Chubais (reported - on the introduction and billions spent on it) useless submachine gun. And for me, the personal weapon of a tanker, ideal for today, has long been created and tested, and it was created not by anyone, but by the same Shipunov. It is called PP-90M (just not to be confused with PP-90M1 - one unit in the name distinguishes a completely different weapon designed for police special forces, this is not about the crews of combat vehicles). Video - about it here https://youtu.be/H-DSUlFnePI And with it - the tankers do not need to invent anything, they do not need any frills, with additional pockets, magazines on their legs, etc. nonsense. Only a normal personal weapon of this level will never be given to us by real army men. I think - you can guess - why they won't. And our combat instructors also told us about this in the middle of the 1980s ...
  31. +1
    28 October 2022 19: 19
    Question of the day, how will PPK-20 help if PP-2000 cannot help? There, the cartridge is either the same or the PP-2000 has a more armor-piercing one, which certainly sews a helmet at all distances where it’s realistic to hit.
    Then it’s necessary to talk either about Ksenia or more modern small-sized machines.
    Of all the PPs, the PP-2000, along with the SR-2 and SR-3, has the most powerful cartridges. But at the same time, it is small in size, and for a pilot to engage in battle on the ground, this, in principle, is all - just an opportunity to die with dignity and not be captured.
  32. The comment was deleted.
  33. +3
    28 October 2022 19: 28
    Yes, the author is in arms like a cockroach in a TV set. 7N31 in PP-2000 is certainly no less armor-piercing than 4,6 in MP-7.
    If we talk about tankers, then the AKS will definitely be better for them than any MP-7, because there will be no corny problems with cartridges for it, but it will be different from a purely police MP-7, which is meaningless in war because of the unique cartridge. And yes, the PP-2000 will stop better and break through either the same or even better.
  34. +7
    28 October 2022 19: 31
    Hello everyone! A little note from an old black oil hussar. By the way, maybe I’ll be able to ride my own T-62 ... short practice 84-86 / dra /: Aks-74u assault rifle, just AKS, easily fits into the interior of the box .... the color of the jumpsuit - if only it wasn’t pink / the terry would laugh / ... but, here, there was a case when they got stuck, neither here nor there, and the tower of the wedge caught. together / there is a special pimp on the electric trigger / you can shoot in long bursts around the area and discourage the desire to shoot with RPGs. And when it was all over, I remember, we were sitting by the fire and reasoning = what if smart guys from the defense industry shouldn’t stick a machine gun instead of a PKT, with “shackles” like an infantry one, so that if anything, take it off, fasten the butt, and you don’t even need sights - know put a 4-5th tracer in the tape soldier
    1. +3
      28 October 2022 21: 13
      As a result of the Chechen, developed. "machine gun survival kit" or similar clumsy name. A handle with a butt and a trigger, attached to the place of the electric trigger, and a bipod. I haven't seen it live, only in magazines in the early 2000s.
  35. +3
    28 October 2022 19: 33
    Beautifully written article, even I, an elderly gentleman, understood everything. It is not easy to fight in a tank. I can only write, I really appreciate you. In 1943-44, our grandfathers fought on the T-34 tank, they probably had it worse. am
    1. +2
      29 October 2022 15: 45
      Judging by Soviet films, the tankers of the Red Army, when leaving the tank, fired back from the TT.
  36. +1
    28 October 2022 20: 10
    Stores for the machine to put in the pockets of your pants? Fresh from...
  37. 0
    28 October 2022 20: 36
    And why are you considering the AK-74M, and not the AKSU, as a regular crew weapon? It seems to be just the right option, the most it is of what is, for tankers.
  38. +3
    28 October 2022 20: 49
    bullshit on a clear moonlit night, the author forgot that there is still such an assault rifle as AKSU and there is no need to invent trousers with a fly back, and so everything was invented according to our minister-builder and there are helmets for tankers and comfortable overalls, everything is there, but where then it’s over the horizon. This is from the same series as the Ratnik combined arms set, in which everything is there for a fighter and they didn’t show him anywhere, but like a war, again, the whole world is dressing the army. It seems that there are only crooks around the Ministry of Defense or pests
    1. -1
      29 October 2022 06: 45
      ABOUT THIVES AND CROOKS ARE YOU STILL IN DOUBT?
  39. 0
    28 October 2022 21: 28
    In addition to the reasoning that I fully support, it would be nice to have an individual radio beacon sewn into the overalls with an owner code that would start working after turning it on by the owner. This time. For the selection of the wounded, not only tankers, it would be time to think about and introduce automatic stretcher drones that found the wounded by these beacons and took them to the sanitary post.
  40. +2
    28 October 2022 21: 49
    I think there is no need to reinvent the wheel. In a world where the crews of combat vehicles are worried, everything has already been invented, tested and tested. For there, the sums insured for injuries and injuries from the use of military equipment due to the fault of the designers are high, and there are real competitions for the development and supply to the troops. Look at the equipment of English, German, American, Swedish, and other tankers, where and how everything is located and where it is attached. And do the same, but taking into account the opinion of our tankers. And don't be bullshit.
  41. Eug
    +1
    28 October 2022 21: 54
    So it seems that there are overalls (?) Barmitsa ... instead of PPK-20, as for me, AKSU-74 or AM-17 would be much more effective, especially if they had magazines for 20 rounds .. in general, you won’t envy the guys - now a soldier is loaded so much that just moving (and if you need to overcome obstacles or leave the BM, then vaaasche) this is problematic .. campaign, soon they will be taken into the army (especially into motorized riflemen and tankers) with a height below 1.70 and weighing less than 60 kg ...
  42. -1
    28 October 2022 22: 48
    I didn’t even imagine that the fate of the tanker is so tragic, unlike the pilot))) There is only one conclusion from this material. The tank should be like an airplane. Fly on a hovercraft (so as not to explode on a mine), have your own radar, and catapults for drivers, but instead of a parachute, equip the tankers' seats with flying wings with jet boosters and electronic control systems that will automatically deliver the tankers to a given point. In my opinion, it is not so difficult to come up with everything if you have brains.
  43. +2
    28 October 2022 22: 56
    If it lasts longer than my son is studying, no matter how, but I will get (buy, steal) a Kobolt T-type suit.
  44. +2
    28 October 2022 23: 42
    I read about American tankers in Iraq and, you know, the same complaints.
    One rifle for the loader and pistols for the rest. There are good PPs, but they don’t give them - they’re expensive. There are no armors, but there are light helmets.
    And the recipe: no single races, no infantry cover - no advancement.
    And if anyone demands to neglect this, then he is not a hero commander, but *****. And the attention of Amer special officers is required.
    And if the situation requires a violation of these rules, then after the correction, the attention of the Amer special officers deserves the generals.

    In general, the same garbage overseas - they protect expensive pilots, and you can always get fuel oil from Oklahoma, and then save it.
  45. +1
    29 October 2022 00: 01
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    "Galil" was "created" much later.

    Yes, you are right, the Uzi was indeed created much earlier as a mass infantry
    weapons, just in the sources of my time ("Foreign military review" of
    1970s) it was mentioned as a weapon of tank crews and sometimes special forces (as in more
    late movie about Entebbe).
  46. +1
    29 October 2022 01: 05
    And the sailors? They have flesh, on deck. There's even more than in the pilot's seat. All of this described goodness (the author correctly listed it!), Must be placed in a container outside the tank. Well, next to the zips. Which container is easy to get, or even shoot automatically a little to the side, so as not to burn out. And there, at least a machine gun and a tent. Let them take everything or only what they need, according to the situation. The paratroopers seem to have one, you can see.
  47. 0
    29 October 2022 01: 33
    For some reason, the author does not recall the shortened AM-17 assault rifle, which was also developed for arming the crews of armored vehicles


    You can also watch the Veresk submachine gun developed for special forces
    Under the strengthened cartridge 9*21
  48. +2
    29 October 2022 02: 07
    the Ratnik-3K kit is designed to protect crew members of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers from open flame, thermal effects, fragments, as well as protect elbow and knee joints from various kinds of mechanical damage.

    The 6B48 "Ratnik-ZK" kit includes an anti-fragmentation vest, summer and winter fire-resistant overalls and an armored helmet. Armor-protective elements are made of a special ballistic fabric based on high-strength Russian fiber Armos, which has a water- and oil-repellent treatment.
    [Center]
  49. 0
    29 October 2022 04: 23
    "And the wolves are full and the sheep are safe" !!! - the task for the tank is almost impossible.
  50. 0
    29 October 2022 04: 37
    One tank in the field is not a warrior. There is always infantry included. I think that the tank is more likely to be knocked out at a great distance. At least this is an RPG 100-200 meters. But this is already in urban conditions where there should be even more infantry. I don't think it's relevant in this regard. I suppose that it is quite possible to get out of the hatch with Aksu. Let the tankers speak for it. Protective suits have already been developed. They would be on everyone.
  51. +1
    29 October 2022 05: 27
    Regarding the Stechkin and Makarov pistols, earlier in the USSR, according to the armament of the T-72 tank in a motorized rifle regiment and tank regiments, the gunner and tank commander had Stechkin or Makarov pistols, the mechanic driver of the AKMS (AKS-74) or AKSU, but since the pistols did not they trusted the conscripts, then all three crew members were armed with AKMS or AKS-74 or AKSU assault rifles, but the notorious AKMS and the magazine pouch that was in the tank lay in the spare parts box on the tank’s turret. Finally, the situation with machine guns inside the T72 tank was a problem, tankers inserted them into empty shell sockets or into PKT cartridge boxes, hung them behind the back of the seats or hung them on fasteners on the turret, the only mount for the AKSU where they could insert a machine gun was next to the mechanic’s seat On the driver's right side there is a recess and a strap where you can attach an AKSU assault rifle
  52. +1
    29 October 2022 09: 22
    It is necessary to make emergency containers on the external sling of the tank, which can only be unfastened by the tank operator.
  53. +1
    29 October 2022 10: 58
    These are all basic things; it’s surprising why, with billions of dollars in funding for the army, no one thought about this. As well as normal infantry first aid kits, by the way. There is the main directorate of armored forces, there are branch institutes of the Ministry of Defense, it is not clear why there is no concern for people.
    1. 0
      30 October 2022 22: 26
      because it was not the army that was financed, but Putin’s cronies who were stealing the army.
  54. 0
    29 October 2022 11: 34
    A box with such evacuation spare parts on the outside of the tank is self-evident.
  55. The comment was deleted.
  56. 0
    29 October 2022 12: 20
    What’s stopping you from equipping the existing PP-91 cypress or AEK 919 chestnut, do you need a larger caliber please 6P68, even more do you need AEK 973 at 7,62*39!? Oh yes, it's expensive!
    1. +1
      29 October 2022 18: 36
      Cedar chambered for 9x18 is half as weak. And he cannot fire second-hand cartridges - that is, they will not click on stones like machine guns. This means that even if they force the enemy to lie down, it won’t be for long.
  57. +1
    29 October 2022 12: 59
    have they already forgotten about the wet ammunition rack and fire extinguishing system in modern tanks? If the ammunition has detonated, then there will be no point in leaving the tank! So, in my opinion, apart from a first aid kit and a motorcycle helmet, there should be nothing in the tank as protection against small fragments.
  58. 0
    29 October 2022 13: 55
    Then there was good information that the crews of Russian aircraft would be given PPK-20 - a Kalashnikov submachine gun (not Mikhail, but Viktor, son), as soon as the PPK-20 was put into service.



    PPK-20 is a modification of the PP-19-01 Vityaz-SN submachine gun, almost ten years of experience in operating the Vityaz was taken into account in the design of the weapon, according to representatives of the Kalashnikov concern, PPK-20 is in many ways superior to modern models of such weapons .

    But while the PPK-20 was not accepted into service, the pilots began to be issued ... PP-2000.

    PPK-20 was accepted into the NAZ in the Aerospace Forces. It has not yet been adopted by the army.

    This is also a very interesting weapon originally from Tula, but its effectiveness is questioned by the pilots themselves. Yes, the PP-2000, invented for urban special operations, is very good for precisely such cases: light weight, small size, and can be carried covertly. But the problems are still the same: a weak cartridge that does not penetrate anything.

    Does the PP-2000 have a weak cartridge that doesn’t penetrate anything? Are you kidding? An ST-3 steel sheet 8 mm thick from a pistol is nailed with a frequency of 70% from 12 m. The Zh86-2 body armor vest, when fired from a ballistic gun from 80 m, is nailed with a frequency of 100%. And so - yes, the PP-2000 is a police city weapon. And he can often be seen in Moscow.
  59. The comment was deleted.
    1. +1
      29 October 2022 18: 45
      I will answer the 3rd question, because... I’ve encountered something similar in real life (fortunately, not myself). We are talking about the civilian kit "KIP".
      This ointment preserves well and numbs the burn site for several hours. At the same time, doctors appreciated the safety of the wound and protection from infection, and the victim that the bandage did not have to be torn off with the meat.
      In modern instrumentation, tubes of ointment have been replaced with napkins (they are easier to use) - but they can only cover one small burn, while ointment can cover fairly large areas of skin...
      1. 0
        30 October 2022 20: 51
        The question is the temperature conditions for storing the ointment; BM is effective at -10 and -15, etc.
        1. 0
          4 November 2022 19: 30
          From KIP
          -50...+30 Celsius for one type of ointment and -40...+50 for the second
          The napkins only have a storage temperature, but -60...+60
    2. ada
      0
      29 October 2022 21: 03
      I apologize, but judging by the questions, you have the appropriate training, so I want to ask you a question on the topic.
      How do you assess the possibility of using semi-automatic means of introducing drugs into the human body, characteristic of a general first aid kit, which could be part of the protective suit of a crew member of an object with a fighting compartment that significantly limits movement inside, in the absence of light, in gas pollution, and in other difficult situations? for manipulation of conditions, well, let's say - injectors fixed in the required places on the body/element of the suit and activated by a simple movement of the hand by acting on the drive of a control mechanism such as a valve or a traction line? Or supplying a drug solution through a tube in close proximity to the mouth, for example, like drinking for athletes, by simply squeezing its drive tip with your teeth?
      Let's say the drug is an antidote or painkiller.
      1. +1
        30 October 2022 20: 53
        This, in my opinion, is more like fantasy from Tarmashev’s books than something real from a practical plane
  60. 0
    29 October 2022 17: 10
    Yes, there is a lot that is needed. And he packs it with a backpack.
  61. 0
    29 October 2022 17: 27
    Maybe the weapon, ammunition for it and some other useful things can be mounted outside the tank in a kind of armored safe. The safe will be additional protection for the tank. Place it where, according to statistics, the tank flies less often. Maybe at the end of the stern. And so that after leaving the tank there are no problems with access to the safe, simply shoot it away from the tank about ten meters onto the ground and arm yourself there.
  62. 0
    29 October 2022 18: 33
    Quote: Sedoy
    now to the question - leaves the car into battle ...
    that is why the tanker must have adequate weapons, not PP and other shnyaga ...

    You missed the fact that the tanker fell out of the tank, shell-shocked, stunned and disoriented.
    And for the next 15-20 minutes, any shooting training he has is leveled down to “shoot somewhere there.” The only chance of hitting the target is that it accidentally jumps in front of the bullets.

    That is, in fact, the task of the tankers after evacuating from a damaged tank comes down to a much simpler one: to force the enemy to lie down, excluding targeted shooting at the tankers from automatic weapons. All.

    And to solve this problem, it is much more important to have a large supply of cartridges (and 9x19 you can take at least three times more than 5,45x39, in the same volume of a magazine pouch) and the ability to conduct unaimed fire with one hand, because the other can be burned or wounded (and here a PP chambered for a low-pulse cartridge gives a much better chance of “hitting” in the vicinity of the target than an AKSU).
  63. 0
    29 October 2022 18: 34
    Question to the author: what about the SR-2M Veresk submachine gun chambered for 9*21??? It is + - the same as the German MP - 7. IMHO, this is better than what we now have for this kind of task, as in the article.
  64. SIT
    +1
    29 October 2022 21: 21
    Well, while the fathers of the commanders are getting carried away with some fashionable PP for the fashionable 9X18, if I were the guys in the boxes after the assault on Bakhmut, I would rustle in the adits of Artemsoli. There you can find a PPS43 in quite working condition. Well, somewhere to get hold of TT cartridges. Attaching pouches with magazines to the shin was invented by Luftwaffe paratroopers, and the PPS without a magazine can be kept with you. As a result, if you still have the strength to fall out of the hatch, you have a lot of ammunition on your legs and a vehicle that is not an assault armor can even make a hole in one go. If all three are alive, then the density of fire they will produce is such that you will immediately no longer want to go to full height.
  65. +2
    30 October 2022 11: 30
    Does the author even know about the AKS-74U? Meanwhile, even in Afghanistan and the North Caucasus, all members of armored vehicle crews stocked up on these weapons.
  66. 0
    30 October 2022 13: 23
    Overall, I liked it. In some places, you can argue.

    But I would like to add something. Jewish tankers, in addition to the fact that the engine is in the front and additionally protects them, also fight in armored armor. And this just makes awesome sense. Still, not all shells penetrate a tank. But many of those that did not pierce chip away on the back side of the sheet. Hence the secondary damaging elements. Some are very small and can only damage your eyes. And they will be delayed by clothing and the top layer of skin. But a little larger is already a problem. And a light armored vehicle will greatly improve the condition of someone who has just climbed out of a tank. Or even completely - it will give him a chance to get out, and not curl up right in the tank.
  67. 0
    30 October 2022 22: 24
    Quote: Sharky
    The chance of such damage is quite small relative to the possibility of damage to the box from the outside. Numerous photographs of tanks after the battle show how attachments were torn off, broken, lost, destroyed by enemy fire.

    By placing such a container at the stern, we will provide it with no less protection than in the tank hull. In addition, we will remove explosive objects from the tank, which will be useful to protect the crew. The need for small arms may primarily arise not as a result of a battle, but as a result of a breakdown, when the vehicle will be guarded for some time. And then a normal full-fledged AK-74 from a container will be the best option. You can place a lot of ammunition there, and grenades, etc., for example, a kit for shooting PKT hand-held.
    Quote: Sharky
    But he jumped out of the tank and immediately pressed himself to the ground, crawling away from the tank in parallel. This is more pleasant than poking around in a box outside the tank under fire when enemy bullets whistle overhead.

    The situation in which a tanker will have to jump out of a damaged tank, crawling away under enemy fire, knocking out the flames from his overalls, and at the same time shooting back from the advancing infantry, is extremely fantastic.
    Quote: Sharky
    Or creating a streamlined weapon for tankers (as well as attaching it to the uniform) so that when leaving the tank it does not cling to everything. Look, PPK-20 from the article in the photo is all "toothy" even with respect to AKSU. It will definitely stick. It would be better if the PP2000 was modified for a more powerful cartridge or something based on the AKSU was invented.

    No matter how you tighten it, the ammunition will still get in the way. Who knows, it may well be that this extra load may deprive the tanker of a chance to escape when seconds are counting. And so, there is Groza, which is very compact and powerful.
  68. 0
    31 October 2022 11: 31
    Improving the survivability of our people must be a priority. You can't save money on this. Everyone should have a compact and modern weapon, a walkie-talkie, a first aid kit and protection. An additional extended kit can be placed on the armor. In any case, the opinion of the tankers is important, not the lobbyists of the rear and suppliers
  69. +2
    1 November 2022 08: 08
    Roman...ich, write novels... So many blatant mistakes in the article indicate that the author is familiar with the subject only from comics. APS-20, a weak cartridge compared to PPK-20, used in the PP-2000 - you don’t need to read any further. It is absolutely clear that the delirium will continue to escalate.
  70. 0
    1 November 2022 12: 46
    Not a tanker himself, he served on the border where it was “hot” in every sense.
    My size personally made it difficult for me even to unload from an armored personnel carrier. So, in general terms, I can imagine the problem. My vision of an ersatz solution “for now”.

    For now, regarding weapons, I would recommend carrying an AKSU with a shortened magazine. You can shorten it yourself, it’s not difficult. But you should already have a couple of spare magazines. On your feet... well, let it be more comfortable on your feet. one magazine for each leg, you can also make a “pocket” in a handicraft way.
    It turns out that you crawled out with a compact weapon and you can immediately shoot 10-15 rounds of ammunition (as soon as you tame it). I took cover and took out a full-fledged store.

    The box is outside.... I don’t know, I need to experiment. In addition to the risk of the box breaking, you also have to open it under fire, shell-shocked....
  71. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      5 November 2022 21: 54
      Quote from media3
      For starters, the USSR/RF never had full-fledged tanks.

      This is because there weren't enough blacks serving in the Soviet Army. Therefore, technically backward Soviet engineers mounted automatic loaders for technically backward Soviet guns. And technically advanced American engineers simply replaced these primitive automatic loaders with high-tech, advanced, computerized loaders! And this is just one example of the technical superiority of advanced American tanks over primitive Soviet ones! How much more can I say?)
  72. 0
    2 November 2022 17: 01
    Well, Roman upset me by giving me another portion of mental chewing gum - look at the footage of the crew getting out of the tank - what kind of machine guns, first aid kits? - I would have time to jump out and not get caught in anything.
    Further, if the crew is surrounded (the question is - what the hell, are we 41 years old?) then it’s not even a fact that they will be rescued, it’s better not to get involved in the battle and quietly leave, like a ninja, but for the last battle you can put the gsh-18 in your pocket , or that the thread is chambered for 9*21, well, a case with a machine gun on the armor is also an option.
    All sorts of ppk and knights from the evil one - pps-43 and even then it will be more effective
    1. 0
      2 November 2022 17: 54
      Even a bison with a 64 auger is a sound idea - you can provide suppression to break away from contact
  73. 0
    5 November 2022 21: 42
    I am very sorry. Very. But this is all complete and utter nonsense. Nonsense and nonsense. Right starting with the weapons. Well, look at your own photo! It’s much EASIER to drag AK through the hatch than this slightly smaller sized anchor with its hooks spread out in all directions! All the attachments on the overalls are the same thing - hooks-hooks-hooks. Which it is stupid for a shell-shocked warrior to drag either through the hatch or under the bottom of the tank.
    This is how an engineering problem (and this is precisely, and only an engineering problem) cannot be solved in principle. That is, the military should be accepted, but when they themselves try to come up with something completely out of their field, it’s simply terrible what comes out! So, let's look at the technical specifications.
    It is necessary to provide the tanker leaving the tank with a first aid kit, weapons and ammunition. Pay attention, military experts. No need to drag it all through the hatch! This is completely unnecessary! This completely ruins the whole process! You formulate the problem incorrectly because you don’t know how to do it, and as a result, you cannot get a correct solution.
    That is, we have a small (relatively) recess in the bottom of the tank next to the hatch. It contains a shock-resistant container with a compactly packed kit. All this is covered with a thin armor plate, with a system of locks unlocked from inside the armored hull. He unlatched the locks, got out, dragged the container behind him, opened it, took the first aid kit, the machine gun...
    Yes, when moving, the plate may become deformed, locks may fail, etc. But even this solution, which has not yet been tested locally, is already many times better than both the existing and the proposed one. It’s just that no one in the army tried to solve the problem as a professional engineer. All these years, more than a century, no one has scratched himself. How do I put on the sword belt...
    And yes, it may not be possible to leave the tank through the bottom hatch. This means that there must be several containers. For example, on a mechanical drive hatch, it can be directly secured from the inside. And so on.
    Guys, you are tankers. But this does not mean at all that you understand anything about solving such problems! Even if they concern the tank! And by the way, it was the tankers’ desire to solve the tank’s engineering problems that led to the fact that you have nothing to leave it with! You should ONLY set tasks! Moreover, you need to choose very carefully who to put them on...
  74. 0
    6 November 2022 09: 27
    And by the way. Everyone rushed to discuss not what is important but what they understand) Weapons. Not directly related to the issue at hand, since tankers do not need to attack (they do not have the necessary qualifications for this, since they no longer have a tank)), but survive in order to climb into another tank, and continue to do their job for which they are taught.
    Has anyone mentioned the weapon they really need to complete their main task? Namely, shooting a package of smoke bombs that create thick, dense smoke that is difficult to remove by the wind. Under the cover of which tankers will have the only chance to escape on the battlefield? Well, all sorts of trifles like training on the use of such a smoke screen, orientation in it, tactics of action when retreating from a damaged tank...
  75. +1
    11 November 2022 15: 16
    On the issue of the survival of the crews of wrecked tanks.
    During the 1982 Lebanon War, the Syrian division, in which I was a military adviser, captured 4 Israeli Magah-3 tanks.
    These tanks were carefully examined by us. First of all, the novelty was dynamic protection, a searchlight-trap for ATGMs with IR guidance, 105 mm sub-caliber projectiles of a new type, and, well, something else. One tank was sent by plane from the Soyuz, where two years later dynamic protection also appeared on our tanks, then the Shtora KOEP searchlights, and something else.
    And now about what did not appear on our tanks. First of all, what was intended to help or save the crew.
    On the front upper inclined sheet of the tank hull there were two handles with cables. One set the tank's fire-fighting equipment into operation, and the other opened the lid of the landing hatch located under the driver's seat and folded his seat. The driver simply fell out into the open hatch, freeing the passage for the rest of the crew. Those. if it was impossible for the crew to act independently to extinguish the fire and get out of the wrecked tank, it was possible to help them from the outside. In addition, there was a small powder fire extinguisher near each crew member's seat.
    In the rear of the hull, on the right fender, there was a container in which all sorts of things needed after leaving the wrecked tank were placed, including a folding stretcher.
    In Israel, the life of a soldier is the primary concern of commanders and designers.
    So that big commanders do not have a desire to distinguish themselves, such as “take a high-rise at any cost”, awards are not awarded to generals during hostilities.
    Thus, the issues of the survival of tankers on the battlefield must be considered both from the point of view of designers and from a tactical point of view, i.e. without infantry, tanks should not operate.
    And I was reminded of Israel when I looked at the photo of the Merkava tank shot down by the Palestinians in 2021, with which the author illustrated the article.
  76. 0
    18 March 2023 07: 24
    In the context of PDW, there is no point in comparing the PP-2000 and PPK-20: both assault rifles have the same 9x19 cartridge, tailored for special forces and police tasks. For vehicle crews in battlefield conditions, the Kalashnikov AM-17 chambered for 5.45x39 https://topwar.ru/174528-malogabaritnyj-avtomat-am-17.html or its analogue AMB-17 chambered for 9x39 could be suitable.

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