European chain mail of the "epoch of chain mail"

98
European chain mail of the "epoch of chain mail"
How good it is when in a historical movie the actors wear real chain mail from rings, and various other features of the military costume of those years are taken into account. Frame from the movie "Ivanhoe" (1952)


Let's hang idle chain mail
Under the shade of the native hut.
He said - and the oars rustled;
And leaving fear behind
To the bay of the fatherland dear
We flew in with pride.

"Ruslan and Lyudmila", A. S. Pushkin

stories about weapons. Middle Ages. We continue our story about medieval armor and weapons, and today we will talk about chain mail. It seems that a lot has been said about this type of metal armor, but not everyone has seen miniatures from medieval manuscripts, which show warriors dressed in chain mail. Meanwhile, there are a lot of such miniatures, which, first of all, indicates that protective clothing was very common in the Middle Ages. That is why medieval artists painted in it not only their contemporaries, but also biblical characters, such as David and Goliath, known for their martial arts according to the text from the Bible.




David in the armor of Saul before the fight with Goliath! "The Maciejowski Bible", 1244-1254 Paris, France. Pierpont Morgan Library and Museum, New York

And she also tells us a number of details of this significant battle, in which dexterity and skill defeated brute physical strength. Although, before letting David go to battle with the mighty Philistine, the first king of Israel, Saul, nevertheless tried to dress David in his own chain mail and put a bronze helmet on the young man's head. So to speak, in order to at least equalize his chances in the battle with the mighty Goliath. By the way, Goliath from Gat was not alone in the fight. Along with him was a shield-bearer who carried his shield in front of him - it was so big and heavy.


And this is how David takes off his chain mail. Please note that the artist very accurately depicted how to do this, from which it follows that this man knew the military affairs of that time very well and was by no means a reclusive monk who knew about the war only from stories. "The Maciejowski Bible", 1244-1254 Paris, France. Pierpont Morgan Library and Museum, New York

But just before the battle, David took off his chain mail and helmet, explaining that he was not used to such clothes. And he went out against Goliath with a sling, five stones and a shepherd's staff, and hitting his opponent with a stone on the forehead, cut off his head with his sword and brought it to his camp as a trophy.

Since the Bible describes all this in great detail, it was very easy to illustrate such a text. David should have been dressed as a shepherd, there were no options, and with regard to Goliath everything is very clear - a bronze or copper helmet on his head, as well as chain mail and copper knee pads. That's just for some reason miniaturists in different periods of time depicted this duel every time in different ways!


Here is the earliest depiction of David and Goliath in a French manuscript from 700-799, stored in the municipal library of the French city of Boulogne-sur-Mer. Goliath is clearly wearing something similar to chain mail. It’s just that the artist didn’t draw its too small links…

And now let's remember that not only in the Bible there are references to chain mail (although there are only two of them!). Archaeological finds also confirm our knowledge that it was used in the Roman army of the Ancient World. But even after 476, chain mail was not forgotten in Europe, although in the Golden Psalter of the Swiss monastery of St. Gallen, 890-900. the warriors are depicted not at all in chain mail, but in scaly armor.


Miniature from the Golden Psalter, 800-900. Library of St. Gallen Monastery. Saul wears scaly armor


On a miniature from the Stuttgart Psalter, 801-850, stored in the State Library of Württemberg, in the city of Stuttgart, Goliath is dressed as a typical Frankish warrior: he is wearing a Carolingian helmet, scaly armor (“brunia”), a round shield with a characteristic umbon and an equally characteristic sword

Judging by the miniatures, scaly armor in Europe in the Early Middle Ages dominated, since, apparently, it was easier to make scales from metal and then sew them onto leather or fabric than to make a lot of wire of the same diameter, cut it into rings, connect them all and rivet, and besides, turn it into a shirt. But then, in connection with the improvement of tools, chain mail armor in Europe spread very widely. So the period from 1066 to 1250, historians even began to call the "epoch of chain mail."

This armor was laborious to manufacture, and therefore expensive. So, in 1080 in France, chain mail (called a gobert) cost 100 sous - which was twice, or even five times more than the cost of a horse. On the other hand, the whole set of weapons of the knight as a whole was very simple. Even a hundred years later, namely in 1181, to be a knight in England, one had to have a helmet, chain mail, a shield, as well as a spear and a sword and ... that's it. An ordinary warrior had enough lighter chain mail (goberjon) with short sleeves, an iron helmet and a spear. The city militias were content with a quilted caftan - a gambeson, which the knights served as a chain mail robe, an iron helmet and a spear.


A popular biblical couple - David and Goliath, we also meet on the pages of the Worms Bible from Frankenhal, Germany, dated 1148. British Library, London. Goliath is dressed here in exactly the same armor as the Norman horsemen on the "canvas from Bayeux." That is, although many years have passed, the knights did not see much point in changing their weapons at that time in Germany


"The killing of infants by order of King Herod." Here we see a warrior in chain mail stockings, which in England were called "hozen". They came into use sometime around 1150 and were fastened at the waist under a mail shirt. An earlier form of chausses was a chain mail strip that ran along the leg in front and was tied on it with straps at the back, and the later one was already real stockings made of chain mail weaving sewn onto a fabric lining. Ludwig der Heilige Psalter, dated 1190 Leiden University Library

For chain mail, wire was needed, so it was precisely its production at that time that was put on stream and became truly massive. To get it, a hot metal rod was pulled through conical holes on an iron plate, winding the finished wire onto a drum. Since the diameter of the hole was reduced with each such broach, the diameter of the resulting wire also became smaller and smaller.


Page from a manuscript with a drawing inserted into the text from the Psychomachy, 1120 St. Albans, British Library, London. It happens that the pages of manuscripts turn yellow from time to time, and their miniatures seem plain to us. But that doesn't make them any less valuable. For example, judging by the picture, just at the time of writing this book in Europe, it became fashionable to wear chain mail with the floors of underarmoured clothing released from under it, and up to the ankles!


The Garden of Delights is an illustrated compilation of the sights of its time. Compiled 70 years later than the previous manuscript (1195) by abbess Gerrada of Landsberg, abbess of the Hohenburg monastery. Until the 1803th century, this manuscript was kept in the monastery, then it ended up in the Strasbourg Library (1818). It was first published in 1870, but during the Franco-Prussian War (1195) it burned down along with the library. Today, its copy is known, which belongs to the private Alsatian library of Crédit Mutuel. The appearance of the warriors depicted in her miniatures (including the warrior in this miniature) exactly corresponds to the era of writing this vault: a domed high helmet, a shield that covers almost the entire body, chain mail armor, including chain mail bands for legs with ties at the back - that's right, " flexible metal statues "looked like warriors of the knightly class in XNUMX

Then the wire was wound on a metal rod (“winder”) like a spring and cut along. So we got rings of the same diameter. Then they were inserted into a steel bar with a hole, also shaped like a cone. From this, the rings decreased in diameter, and their ends overlapped one another. To connect them firmly, the rings were placed in a “flattener” - also a plate with a hole where a cylindrical stamp was inserted, and their ends, overlapping one another, were flattened with hammer blows. The holes for the rivet were made with a powerful lever "piercer", since it was very difficult to drill them. Every second ring could first be heated on fire, rivets inserted into the holes, and all this was again connected by forging. The rest of the rings were riveted “cold” already during the assembly process. Although a feature of the earliest chain mail was that all the rings in them were connected with rivets during assembly.


The technology for making chain mail was very simple, so it has not changed for centuries! So sit yourself and connect the ring with the ring, and then knock the chain mail on the table so that the mail weave straightens. Monotonous and tedious work, from which the right hand was very tired. Miniature from the manuscript "The house book of Mendel I", 1425 Germany. Nuremberg City Library

Usually one ring was connected to four others. Such weaving was the most common. Double chain mail is a combination of one or two rings already with eight rings, that is, their number doubled. Such chain mail was very heavy, although very reliable. The number of rings in the chain mail of the Middle Ages could reach 20 thousand, and the weight could be 9-13 kg. True, in England chain mail is known, which has survived to this day, the weight of which is 24 kg! In the East, other weaving methods were also used, for example, “1 + 6”.


Mail master A. Davydov, made by him on the basis of fragments found in the Zolotarevsky settlement near Penza. The outer diameter of the rings is 12,5 mm, the inner diameter is 8,5 mm, the thickness of the rings is 1,2 mm. In total, it took 23 rings. Weight 300 kg. All rings are connected with riveting. Photo of the author of the article

On the territory of the Zolotarevsky settlement in the Penza region, a sample of chain mail was found in 1237, where, most likely, in the autumn of that year, a fierce battle took place between local residents and the troops of Batu Khan, who were marching on Rus'. It was possible to find out that each ring of this chain mail, firstly, was slightly flattened, and secondly, on its flat side there was a semicircular "stiffening rib". The chain mail was restored by Andrey Davydov, one of the Penza craftsmen, and it is a real monument to the masters of that distant era. After all, the level of technology at that time was much lower than the modern one, and that equipment for the manufacture of such chain mail, which today can be easily made on various machines, was then entirely made by hand.


What was worn in battle under chain mail? Undoubtedly, it was something solid and dense. Although the miniatures from the same “Macievsky Bible” clearly show that under the chain mail the soldiers depicted on it have nothing but an ordinary shirt! "The Maciejowski Bible", 1244-1254 Paris, France. Pierpont Morgan Library and Museum, New York

At first, the sleeves of chain mail did not reach the brush. Therefore, the warriors wore leather mittens or gloves. But somewhere at the end of the 1250th century, most likely as a result of campaigns to the East, chain mail was supplemented with a hood and long sleeves with mittens with one thumb. In the middle of the palm, each such mitten had a cut that allowed the hand to be released from it at any time, which was a very convenient invention. Then, around XNUMX, chain mail gloves with separate fingers appeared, however, the knights did not abandon the earlier version either, since the option with separately woven fingers was more expensive. Chainmail stockings-chausses at the same time also began to be worn everywhere.


In the Maciejowski Bible, one can see many images of chain mail, in which mittens with one finger are one with the sleeves. But here's what's interesting: the only clothing underneath in all cases is a shirt with sleeves up to the wrist. It can be assumed that some kind of lining could have been on the chain mail itself, but it is almost impossible to prove this assumption today. Fragment of a miniature from the Maciejowski Bible, 1244-1254. Paris, France. Pierpont Morgan Library and Museum, New York

On the other hand, we are well aware of the names of the protective clothing worn with chain mail at that time. This is primarily gambeson and aketon, although it is difficult to say how they differed. It is possible that these terms were already used arbitrarily and were interchangeable in meaning.

In general, a warrior of a knightly rank began to look much brighter and more colorful over time, but the color of the metal in his figure, as before, prevailed. Under his metal robe, the knight wore a breeze - linen knickers to the knees, and a long shirt, also to the knees, if possible silk or at least linen. Cloth stockings were pulled over the legs, and on top of them were lined chain mail chausses. Under the chain mail, most likely, they put on a caftan made of thick woolen fabric and a gambeson made of leather or coarse linen. The head was necessarily covered with a quilted cap, since the chain mail hood was never simply put on the head.


This is how a typical Western European knight of the first quarter of the 1220th century could look like. Illustration from the Bamberg Psalter, 1230-XNUMX. Germany, Bamberg State Library

That is, it was a figure "chained in steel" and dressed from head to toe in chain mail overalls with a hood and chain mail stockings that played the role of pants. "Armor" had either the color of the metal (if the chain mail was polished), or ... rust, if its owner fell into the rain, and he had no opportunity to clean himself.

To be continued ...
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  1. +6
    2 November 2022 06: 13
    So, in 1080 in France, chain mail (called gobert) cost 100 sous.
    Very interested in the source of present value? The fact is that I met in the literature a similar price tag for chain mail in England (XI century, of course, in shillings), but without specific references.
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    1. +8
      2 November 2022 06: 22
      Hello Anton!
      I still could not resist - well, David has a mug! wassat

      True, Goliath is not much nicer. laughing
      1. +9
        2 November 2022 06: 35
        Hi Uncle Kostya!
        In my opinion, there is a portrait resemblance.)))
        1. +4
          2 November 2022 06: 44
          Do you think that the actor was selected according to this miniature? belay
      2. +15
        2 November 2022 07: 39
        The dude who killed lions and bears while guarding herds is persistently portrayed as a frail dwarf or slender youngster No. Only Michelangelo understood this
        1. 0
          4 November 2022 14: 02
          Quote: Luminman
          When you want to protect yourself before a battle, the first thing that comes to mind is chain mail. Simple and relatively cheap...


          Not easy and certainly not cheap. The measure of value is labor. The master made the chain mail for several weeks.
          The cheapest and most accessible armor is made of thick skin (of a buffalo or similar animal) with sewn on metal (other material can be used) plates.
      3. +7
        2 November 2022 12: 52
        Quote: Sea Cat
        I still could not resist - well, David has a mug!

        It seems to me alone that here a grandmother with a stick carries potatoes in a string bag:

        and here - carries a baguette from a bakery? laughing
        1. +6
          2 November 2022 13: 04
          And it does look like it. And everything is so quiet, peaceful - grandmother, potatoes ... laughing

          And here, in my opinion, the family scene is simply depicted: the wife chases her husband with something like a mop, he brushes her off as best he can with whatever comes to hand.
          1. +4
            2 November 2022 13: 41
            Did the mop catch fire? From friction.
            Or sparks from the eyes fell.
          2. +5
            2 November 2022 14: 01
            Quote: Sea Cat
            he brushes her off as best he can with whatever comes to hand

            The man is going fishing. There, a fishing rod in his hands and a backpack on his shoulder. And his aunt offers to take the worms with him. Stupid woman! She has been living with her husband for so many years, but he doesn’t understand gear, he doesn’t see that he has a spinning rod in his hands! laughing
            1. +5
              2 November 2022 14: 13
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              And his aunt offers to take the worms with him.

              Doesn't she have a meat grinder in her hands? and minced meat is climbing with might and main ...
              Greetings Michael! hi
              1. +5
                2 November 2022 14: 34
                I also had such an idea, but with a meat grinder, it was somehow painfully cruel.

                1. +5
                  2 November 2022 14: 37
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  I also had such an idea, but with a meat grinder, it was somehow painfully cruel.

                  As you know: the most practical duel is a duel in meat grinders: the defeated automatically turns into minced meat ... laughing
                  1. +5
                    2 November 2022 14: 44
                    the defeated automatically turns into mincemeat ...


                    You can't argue with the classics. smile
              2. +6
                2 November 2022 15: 14
                Hello, Sergey.
                The meat grinder is different. These are worms straight from the garden and right on the shovel, everything is clearly visible right there.
          3. +5
            2 November 2022 14: 01
            Quote: Sea Cat
            wife chases her husband with something like a mop,

            In my opinion, there are generally two aunts fighting here: both in dresses laughing
        2. +7
          2 November 2022 13: 57
          and here - carries a baguette from a bakery?


          Which with a baguette is a prototype of Stirlitz with a bottle.
          1. +5
            2 November 2022 14: 42
            Good association. Is it because cognac is French? The one that he and the general did not finish drinking? drinks
    2. +5
      2 November 2022 07: 21
      Oh, Anton! I took it somewhere, of course. Now to my left, the entire shelf is littered with books. But here's where .... I tried to find for you now and did not find it. But I didn't think of it, of course.
      1. +8
        2 November 2022 10: 06
        These prices are quoted by Malcolm Barber in The States of the Crusaders with reference to Duby's book "La societe aux XIe et XIIe....", Paris, 1971.
        1. +4
          2 November 2022 10: 15
          Quote: Sertorius
          Malcolm Barber in The Crusader States

          Thank you! Saved me a lot of time!
    3. +3
      2 November 2022 10: 07
      Very interesting source of present value

      These prices are quoted by Malcolm Barber in The States of the Crusaders with reference to Duby's book "La societe aux XIe et XIIe....", Paris, 1971.
      1. +3
        2 November 2022 10: 26
        These prices are quoted by Malcolm Barber in The States of the Crusaders with reference to Duby's book "La societe aux XIe et XIIe....", Paris, 1971.
        Thank you!
  2. +9
    2 November 2022 06: 17
    Good morning, dear comrades! soldier
    At the word "chain mail" for some reason, I immediately remembered the film "Alexander Nevsky" and the phrase "Mail is short" that became commonplace after it smile

    Thanks to Vyacheslav for the article, in other words, when we have Shpakovsky, there is always something to read. good
    1. +7
      2 November 2022 08: 34
      and from there no less important - "not the enemy gave - he forged!"
      1. +5
        2 November 2022 08: 39
        As far as I remember the film, this chain mail ruined him, "forged himself." request
        1. +6
          2 November 2022 08: 40
          this is all an insidious enemy, and a vile blow - in battle I saved
          1. +6
            2 November 2022 08: 55
            it's all an insidious enemy


            Naturally - "The enemy is cunning and cunning. Fire!" (c)))))



            I can't insert the video, I can't. request
  3. +5
    2 November 2022 06: 31
    While still at school, during a summer internship at a factory, one classmate knitted chain mail from grover washers. It turned out like a real chain mail - we even stabbed him with a knife on a dare ... wink
    1. +6
      2 November 2022 07: 24
      Quote: Luminman
      one classmate knitted himself chain mail from grover washers.

      My students in the elective discipline for the test had to weave a square decimeter of chain mail. Even the girls liked it. And for two it became a career - they began to make chain mail to order.
      1. +8
        2 November 2022 08: 38
        On the subject of chain mail... wink

        Even the girls liked it.




        With the filing of Captain Mikhailov. drinks
        1. +7
          2 November 2022 09: 03
          How was she going to swim in it?
          The text of your comment is too short and in the opinion of the site administration does not carry useful information
          1. +5
            2 November 2022 09: 52
            Yes, I don’t know what she was going to do, but certainly not to swim, in such “equipment” with a stone on the ground and without surfacing. laughing
          2. +4
            2 November 2022 13: 42
            Like a princess from the plow of Stepan Razin.
            1. +5
              2 November 2022 14: 27
              Yeah, bcl-bull, and crucian carp are swimming around. laughing
              1. +5
                2 November 2022 15: 21
                Oh, this craving for spectacles and expressions of will.
              2. +6
                2 November 2022 15: 30
                "Men are men" (c)

        2. Fat
          +8
          2 November 2022 10: 44
          hi Konstantin. Even if the "mail" is plastic

          One can only sympathize with the model girl.
          This is the case when the words "beauty requires sacrifice" must be taken quite literally wassat drinks
          1. +6
            2 November 2022 10: 55
            “It physically hurts me to see a woman who has turned herself into a fashion victim with her own hands and looks funny and strange.” (C)
            Yves Saint Laurent
          2. 0
            18 December 2022 17: 13
            See the author is right - under chain mail wore something wink
        3. +6
          2 November 2022 13: 59
          With the filing of Captain Mikhailov.

          No, this is at the suggestion of another Mikhailov. drinks
        4. +8
          2 November 2022 14: 03
          Covalli underwear? smile
          1. +5
            2 November 2022 14: 38
            Underwear "otKovalli"

            Yeah, the work of the Milanese masters of the 15th century, from the collection of the Hermitage. laughing drinks
            1. +6
              2 November 2022 15: 22
              Judging by the kokoshnik, it’s more likely Novgorod or Suzdal there ... Maybe the XNUMXth century, it’s hard to say. smile
              1. +8
                2 November 2022 16: 01
                Judging by the kokoshnik

                Armored koshnik with built-in stats. +4 defense, +10 charisma. laughing
                1. +9
                  2 November 2022 16: 38
                  Throw off, guys, for the ruble -
                  I will put on a kokoshnik
                  And if you throw off five,
                  I can take off the chain.
                  laughing
                  1. +4
                    2 November 2022 20: 28
                    If you chip in ten,
                    Someone will play tricks.
                  2. +6
                    2 November 2022 20: 59
                    Throw off, guys, for the ruble -
                    I will put on a kokoshnik

                    Mikhail, then you will make me wear a famous hat with your kokoshnik ... belay It will be a blast! laughing
                    For comparison - I'm in the hat Pal "Tyrant" Petrovich. I'm afraid to imagine you in a kokoshnik ... It seems that everyone is screwed there, and the rest are also screwed ... laughing drinks

          2. +3
            2 November 2022 21: 57
            Covalli underwear?

            Here is the best parody of women's underwear in video games. laughing

  4. +8
    2 November 2022 07: 34
    Vyacheslav Olegovich,
    thanks, very interesting!
    From myself I would like to note that the "mail" weaving is seriously spaced in time. Therefore, in the Ivanhoe film, the form of chain mail corresponds to the period, and in terms of weaving - such chain mail is not earlier than the XNUMXth century.
    By the way, in the film "Alexander Nevsky" there are a lot of "chain mail" from the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries. All those with mirrors.
    Chain mail is a modern term, in Rus' / Russia such a protective look was called "armor", and the closer to our time, the more difficult weaving.
    At the same time, in the early periods, different plexuses were not used, they simply did not know how to do it. You can compare the remains of chain mail of the same XIII century that have come down to us. and armor of the XNUMXth century: the difference in weaving is huge.
    hi
    1. +6
      2 November 2022 07: 45
      Good morning, dear Edward!
      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
      You can compare the remains of chain mail of the same XIII century that have come down to us. and armor of the XNUMXth century: the difference in weaving is huge.

      You are right as always. But here, fortunately, we have a piece of chain mail from Zolotarevka. And our master did everything exactly as there. At least weaving. Well, they also found Roman chain mail near Lake Trasimene, and managed to find out that all the rings were brought together, as on our key rings. Therefore, the chain mail was very ruffled and ... the Romans drowned in them in the lake!
    2. +6
      2 November 2022 10: 49
      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
      Chain mail is a modern term, in Rus' / Russia such a protective look was called "armor"

      And from flat rings - "shell"!
      Greetings Edward! hi
      1. +3
        2 November 2022 13: 20
        And from flat rings - "shell"!

        Greetings Sergey!!!
        Yes exactlyhi
        1. +3
          2 November 2022 18: 30
          Quote: Edward Vashchenko
          And from flat rings - "shell"!

          Greetings Sergey!!!
          Yes exactlyhi

          What about Baidan?
        2. +2
          2 November 2022 21: 08
          Greetings Sergey!!!

          But everyone didn’t try the divine drinks together, Edward ... recourse drinks
          1. +1
            3 November 2022 15: 54
            ahhh? Am I missing something about Divine Drinks? laughing When is it planned?
            1. 0
              3 November 2022 19: 24
              ahhh? Am I missing something about Divine Drinks? laughing When is it planned?

              And when will you arrive in St. Petersburg? Sergey has better drinks than those that the Olympic gods drank! wink At least the ouzo is definitely better than in Greece... Yes
    3. +4
      2 November 2022 14: 06
      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
      such a protective view was called "armor"

      More like a reservation. Ringed. Unlike, for example, lamellar armor, which was "plank armor".
  5. +1
    2 November 2022 07: 37
    16 kg was a Soviet bronik - I won’t say that it made something very difficult
    1. +5
      2 November 2022 07: 47
      Quote: Lepsik
      16 kg was a Soviet bronik - I won’t say that it made something very difficult

      When I put on the first chain mail of 16 kg and walked around in it, I realized three things: it’s not heavy (1), but it stuffs my shoulders, hence the proud posture of the knights - to walk in our hunched way, you get tired quickly (2), And finally, we need cotton pants! (3) I then had bruises above my knees - the hem of the chain mail hit my legs and ... stuffed!
  6. +6
    2 November 2022 08: 17
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

    I thought - how much time on average was spent on making chain mail?
    1. +5
      2 November 2022 09: 22
      Quote from Korsar4
      I thought - how much time on average was spent on making chain mail?

      Somewhere I had a report from the British reenactors. But you have to look...
    2. +6
      2 November 2022 09: 53
      And you can pierce it with one fell swoop. wink

      Hello, Sergey! smile
      1. +4
        2 November 2022 13: 43
        Hi Constantine!

        Everything breaks down easier.
        1. +3
          2 November 2022 14: 35
          I remember from childhood: "To break is not to do" good
  7. +4
    2 November 2022 08: 48
    And now let's remember that not only in the Bible there are references to chain mail (although there are only two of them!)

    This is most likely the cost of translation. Chain mail hardly appeared before 4-3 centuries BC
    Well, they also found Roman chain mail near Lake Trasimene, and managed to find out that all the rings were brought together, as on our key rings.

    About chain mail from Lake Trasimeno, but wasn’t there a squamata there ?. I'll check Robinson later.
    By the way
    "Svedenka" judging by the reconstructions, it protects disgustingly. Riveting and welding of the ring greatly change things for the better.
    1. +5
      2 November 2022 09: 21
      Quote: Engineer
      "Svedenka" judging by the reconstructions, it protects disgustingly.

      Nevertheless, this is the "Japanese type" of chain mail. Only they sewed it on the fabric.
    2. +4
      2 November 2022 09: 22
      Quote: Engineer
      I'll check Robinson later.

      I think Connolly had it too. But 100%; I do not remember...
      1. +7
        2 November 2022 11: 23

        Lorica squamata - scale armor declared as found in the area of ​​Lake Trasimene. Museum of Ontario
        According to Bishop and Colston, in 2009, very few remains of chain mail from the times of the republic were found: Reneblas, Spain and the grave of Scipio
        Roman chain mail is mentioned by Polybius, including when describing the Battle of Trasimene Lake, but I did not immediately find any finds of chain mail there.
    3. +6
      2 November 2022 10: 44
      Quote: Engineer
      "Svedenka" judging by the reconstructions, it protects disgustingly.

      Nevertheless, she was. The question remains open for what purposes: but there will apparently be an eternal discussion. hi
      1. +5
        2 November 2022 10: 53
        It was even among the Romans, who knew all the main types of chain mail, incl. with riveting and welding.
      2. +5
        2 November 2022 11: 24
        Connolly noticed that the Celts also have vowels and rivets. Svedenki he considered ceremonial
        1. +5
          2 November 2022 11: 47
          Quote: Engineer
          Svedenki he considered ceremonial

          Information is recorded from early Celtic chain mail to almost modern times (in India, Japan, the Caucasus). Someone considers them purely ceremonial, someone - that they also had combat use.
          We recall the mirror armor from the Armory, some of which was made complete with a briefcase. And here again: some say that this is purely ceremonial, ceremonial armor, others - that since the mirror was worn over another armor, for example, the same chain mail, then in this case the information was enough.
          PS You, as I understand it, are strong in English? Why is chain mail called mail in English: is it from the word connection?
          1. +5
            2 November 2022 11: 57
            Why is chain mail called mail in English: is it from the word connection?

            Hardly. Mail is now associated almost exclusively with mail.
            mail for chain mail is short for chain mail
            Until then, mail is a wallet. Sofa speculation from me is what rings laughing
            Scale mail - scale armor.
            1. +5
              2 November 2022 12: 10
              Quote: Engineer
              Until then, mail is a wallet. Sofa speculation from me is what rings

              Until recently, chain mail purses were very common, for example, you can buy these on Avito:
          2. +5
            2 November 2022 20: 09
            in English chain mail is called mail
            From the old French maillier, which meant to knock out.
            1. +1
              3 November 2022 09: 49
              Quote: Bolt Cutter
              From the old French maillier, which meant to knock out.

              Thank you! and how does mail relate to mail? hi
              1. +1
                3 November 2022 10: 39
                mail How does mail relate?
                This has to do with malleability. Mail is mail (because of the bag) and chain mail is maille. Something like this.
  8. +1
    2 November 2022 09: 06
    Quote: Engineer
    Chain mail hardly appeared before 4-3 centuries BC

    When you want to protect yourself before a battle, the first thing that comes to mind is chain mail. Simple and relatively cheap...
    1. +6
      2 November 2022 09: 39
      The chest plate on the straps is much simpler and more "natural". Babylonians, Austrians, Hittites, Samnites, Mayans will confirm.
      Chainmail is wire. And for wire, you need at least basic drawing production.
      1. +3
        2 November 2022 10: 18
        Quote: Engineer
        chest plate

        By the way, the first references date back to 1171.
      2. +1
        2 November 2022 11: 24
        Quote: Engineer
        The chest plate on the straps is much simpler and more "natural"

        The chest plate will take much more metal per unit area than if you made it from rings. In addition, it must be forged and hardened. Do not forget that the mining and smelting of metal did not then have such an industrial scale as it does today. Other advantages of ring armor are relative lightness and flexibility. In addition, unlike the plate, full body coverage...

        Quote: Engineer
        And for wire, you need at least basic drawing production

        The word "production" is a very strong word. Just a calibrated hole is enough

        Quote: Engineer
        Chain mail is wire

        Not always. A thin ribbon, hot twisted in the manner of a stranded wire...

        Quote: Engineer
        riveting and welding

        Where did welding come from in ancient times?
        1. +8
          2 November 2022 11: 39
          Lord, how they love to argue here.
          Well, at least read something on the topic
          The chest plate will take much more metal per unit area than if you made it from rings

          No need to transfer modern categories to the past
          The chest plate was originally not even close to a medieval breastplate.

          Besides, it must be forged

          Can be forged and cast. you can do both, like on many helmets from Greece.
          and harden

          Stop (with)
          Do you have information about the hardening of armor elements in ancient times? I’ll tell you a secret - no one bothered with this. Only for blades, and even then not all.
          Other advantages of ring armor are relative lightness and flexibility. In addition, unlike the plate, full body coverage...


          That is why chain mail is what is called advanced armor requiring hundreds of years of processing combat experience.

          Not always. A thin tape, hot twisted in the manner of a stranded wire.
          .
          Excuse me, are you one of the hitmen?

          History operates with objective data. There are no finds and images of chain mail until the 4th-3rd centuries.
          There is plate armor, there are scales, there is "plate" solid armor, there is no chain mail.
          1. +2
            2 November 2022 11: 50
            Quote: Engineer
            Do you have information about the hardening of armor elements in ancient times?

            Hardening and other heat treatment of metal is the very first thing that blacksmiths learned as soon as the Iron Age came! Without this, iron is simply a useless thing ...

            Quote: Engineer
            Excuse me, are you one of the hitmen?

            I just have an engineering diploma lying around at home ...
            1. +6
              2 November 2022 12: 04
              Quote: Luminman
              as soon as the Iron Age came!

              Despite the onset of the Iron Age, for quite a long time defensive weapons were made of bronze: helmets, cuirasses, plates, knemids, shields, including Roman times, for example, bronze helmets.
              The same antique cuirasses, made precisely from iron, are currently known 2: one from the tomb, probably belonging to Philip II, the second from the tomb attributed to Pyrrhus (in fact, it apparently has nothing to do with Pyrrhus). hi
              Armor characteristic of Italy VI - III centuries BC (from the collection of Gutman):
            2. +6
              2 November 2022 12: 07
              Hardening and other heat treatment of metal is the very first thing that blacksmiths learned as soon as the Iron Age came! Without this, iron is simply a useless thing ...

              Read, read and read again.
              Even for blades, hardening was completely optional for a very long time.
              Roman swords before the 2nd Punic from disgusting iron.
              The vast majority of Avar blades are made of base steel without heat treatment.
              Ulfbert fakes were not hardened and had a hardness of up to 200 HB
              The vast majority of chain mail is made of "raw" steel - otherwise it would be impossible to make them.
              Knightly armor for the first time received a full-fledged heat treatment around 1400 in Italy. The hardness has reached 400 HB. Williams data.
              Threat
              Where did welding come from in ancient times?

              Forge welding
            3. Fat
              +5
              2 November 2022 16: 48
              Greetings. If you really have an engineering degree, then remember TCM, the iron-carbon state diagram. The iron produced in a cheese kiln (kritz) contains less than 0.25% carbon. This product, almost pure iron (with slag, which the blacksmith squeezes out drop by drop with forging), is completely pointless to harden: it will not add elasticity, strength, or hardness.
              1. +1
                2 November 2022 18: 07
                Iron produced in a cheese kiln (kritz) contains less than 0.25% carbon

                The percentage of carbon in steel depends solely on the preferences of the metallurgist. And (relatively) high-carbon steel can be obtained without modern open-hearth furnaces and converters. In any case, to give it the (relatively) proper hardness.
                1. Fat
                  +1
                  2 November 2022 20: 51
                  Quote: Luminman
                  The percentage of carbon in steel depends solely on the preferences of the metallurgist. And (relatively) high-carbon steel can be obtained without modern open-hearth furnaces and converters

                  Viktor, the preferences of the metallurgist have nothing to do with it, everything depends on the quality of the ore (associated impurities), fuel and the design of the furnace. Received excellent steel and until the 19th century and without iron smelting in a blast furnace. Steel appeared later than the beginning of the Iron Age, around 200 AD.
                  1. 0
                    3 November 2022 03: 18
                    Received excellent steel until the 19th century

                    I am aware of this...
              2. +1
                2 November 2022 21: 33
                Allow me to criticize you. An alloy of iron with carbon (carbon content up to 0,25%) is still structural steel, low-carbon, cemented.
                1. Fat
                  +1
                  2 November 2022 22: 06
                  Yes. You're right. I just don't want to bring into discussion the "technical details" that follow from the state diagram. "Weapons" steel with high elasticity and hardness and was obtained by repeated reforging of strips with a cemented surface ...
              3. 0
                18 December 2022 17: 36
                In kritz, the average carbon content is sooooo different and varies in areas of a few cm. So you can pick up both low and high carbon pieces. Both for the body and for the edge, which is what the master needs. Then weave ribbons. Then weld together. Finally, of course, temper. See how the Japanese make katana. Until now, specially for them, the kritsi are melted, so that the reenactors observe the old technology.
  9. +4
    2 November 2022 09: 27
    How good it is when in a historical movie the actors wear real chain mail from rings, and various other features of the military costume of those years are taken into account. Frame from the movie "Ivanhoe"

    Especially considering the fact that the author of the original source did not bother with this. He has knights in plate armor and helmets with visors dissecting there))
    In that sense, even our 1983 film isn't bad at all. Yes, and the songs of Vysotsky ...
  10. The comment was deleted.
  11. +1
    2 November 2022 21: 14
    "David stood with his sling lowered, smiling at the corners of his mouth. The sculptor conveyed everything - both the youth of the beardless face, and the careless dexterity of the naked body, and the predatory squint of the eyes. David was handsome, angry and handsome, as in the legends.

    And Goliath has already fallen to one knee. A powerful man in armor, who went out to a fair fight and was slain by a vile blow to the temple. Anguish and surprise froze on his simple, unsophisticated face, he was still trying to get up, but his legs could not hold. Only Goliath got up anyway, stone muscles swelled like ropes, and life, which is not and never was in stone, scorched anyone who looked at the slain warrior. It looked like he would get up. It will reach David, who will turn to stone again with fear, and will lower his heavy fist on his curly head ... "(c) Lukyanenko
    1. 0
      18 December 2022 17: 44
      David did not intend to engage in fencing. Shooting only, no rendezvous. Then a light retreat. So tactically correctly he took off both the chain mail and the helmet. They interfered.
  12. 0
    2 November 2022 22: 33
    or ... rust, if its owner got caught in the rain, and he had no opportunity to clean himself.
    In fact, chain mail, like other armor, was generously oiled. Rust betrayed a negligent squire or knight.
  13. 0
    18 December 2022 17: 20
    In the picture of Matsevsky's bible, warriors are visible, struck by arrows, a sword, a bow, a spear and an ax, probably in the head. So why wear it at all then? What did you protect from?