"Shahed" - "Barvinok" over Russian cities: prospects and options

299
"Shahed" - "Barvinok" over Russian cities: prospects and options

To begin with: do not rush to search the Internet for a UAV called "Barvinok". He is not there yet. This is just an analogy with "Geranium", as a very common flower in Ukraine, one of the symbols, one might say.

In this material, I propose to consider a hypothetical possibility for the Armed Forces of Ukraine to get at their disposal devices similar to the Shahed and possible countermeasures.



Today we can already safely admit: ideal weapon terror is no longer a cruise missile, but a flying "moped" with a warhead. At the very least, the effectiveness of this miracle weapon is simply stunning, and the price-quality ratio simply makes the manufacturers of the corresponding weapons shudder nervously at night.

What is the success of "Shahed"?


In simplicity. Made from “dung and sticks”, a plastic body plus a simply unique engine, which is based on the famous VW “Boxer” engine that powered such an epic car as the Volkswagen Beetle. The first, naturally.


Based on this engine, Limbach Flugmotoren from Königswinter developed their Limbach L550E, an excellent engine for superlight aircraft and gliders, weighing only 16 kg and producing 50 hp. (almost like the most powerful Zhukovsky motor).

The 550E gained recognition in the world, mainly due to the fact that it had an incomparable ratio of 2,3 kW of power per 1 kg of weight. In comparison, the Rotax 914, used in such serious vehicles as the Bayraktar TB2, has a power of 115 hp. (more than twice as much), but a dry weight of 60 kg, which gives a ratio of 0,98 kW per 1 kg.

Now those who know will object that it is impossible to compare the Rotax resource and the Chinese or Iranian copy of the German motor. And we won't. We do not need it, "Bayraktar", if it is not knocked down, will fly its 200-300 hours, but for the "Shahed" with a one-way ticket, this is absolutely not important.

Yes, I forgot to say that after the attack on the oil enterprises of the Aramco company in Saudi Arabia from the territory of Yemen, Germany generally stopped selling 550E engines for export. But by this time, MD 550 was already being riveted in China, and MADO MD 550 in Iran.

It should be noted that the Iranian copy of the Chinese unlicensed copy of the German motor works quite well for itself. Proven by the CHP of Kyiv and other cities of Ukraine.


So, some plastic for the case, one and a half linear meters of a corner for a stretcher, the cheapest satellite navigation board from Ali Express, a set of drives for control, Orduinka, fifty kilograms of explosives, a detonator - and the most effective weapon of the SVO is ready.

Moreover, the only thing that costs real money in this set is the engine. Everything else can be put in 500 US dollars. A German engine costs between $12 and $17, depending on the batch, but a copy of a Chinese copy, according to many experts, cannot cost more than $5-6.

As a result, we get a drone worth 6-8 thousand dollars with a capacity of 3-4 artillery shells with a caliber of 152 mm.

An economical, but powerful motor allows you to run the "moped" at a very decent distance. Of course, the promised 2 km is under very ideal weather conditions, but from 000 to 400 km the Shahed definitely flies. And it also hits quite accurately, as everyone has already seen.

What is its power?


The main thing is invisibility. "Shahed" is really a huge headache for air defense. For any air defense, not only Ukrainian. In essence, the radar should detect a 30 x 40 x 30 cm cube in the sky. This is not an easy task for the radar, it is very difficult to accomplish.


The same is true for aircraft radars. The best example was the losses of the Ukrainian Air Force, whose pilots flew to intercept the Shaheeds and accidentally became victims of these stupid but effective devices.

We all understand very well that the Shahed does not have an operator, the drone flies along the route laid down in it. The pilot is trying to visually and with the help of radar to find in the sky and attack the "bird", and she just flies into the plane. Finita, "the catapult is salvation," as they sang in the old song about the Phantom.

Dodge in an airplane at current speeds from drone almost impossible. The speed of a modern aircraft is too high and the size of a flying landmine is too small. And the detonator, in general, does not care about whom to blow up the charge, as long as there is contact.

In Ukraine, they have already figured out and stopped firing from machine guns and machine guns at the Shahids flying towards the target. There is a chance to hit, but the charge will still explode, so it’s really better to let it activate on the CHP pipe than on a residential building.

The ideal weapon of terror, Shahed UAV. It’s very difficult to detect, it’s still possible visually when approaching, but here it’s for sure, “whoever didn’t hide is not to blame”, it’s problematic to shoot down, even if he is shot down, he still explodes on something.

The launch is carried out from a mobile ramp on a truck chassis. In general, this launcher can be installed anywhere, which greatly expands the possibilities of application. Programming is simple, by coordinates. The main thing is that there are satellites, according to the signals of which the device is oriented.

Does "Shahed" have disadvantages? Perhaps only one: the impossibility of changing course in flight. That is, where they were sent, they will fly there. This means that moving targets are not for the Shahed, but any static objects of military and civilian infrastructure are welcome.

Indeed, in its simplicity and effectiveness, Shahed is as perfect as a punishing sword.

Moreover, its low cost and absolutely no manufacturability, which allows you to assemble such devices in any more or less suitable size premises, is also a plus! You can collect thousands of such devices and arrange punitive raids anywhere.

Yes, some part will be knocked down. Air defense, aircraft, helicopters, riflemen. But most of it will fly in and explode!

Moreover, with the planes, I obviously got excited. It's not that the Shahed can fly on an airplane, yes, it happened, but an airplane is a very inconvenient thing to deal with such objects.

For all its maneuverability, the MiG-29 is a large and, compared to a quietly rattling drone, even a clumsy aircraft. If the radar does not "grab" the drone's engine, you should not count on IR systems at all, the air-cooled internal combustion engine is generally cold in comparison with a normal turbojet engine of either an airplane or a helicopter. Not every warhead will capture a drone.

Plus the small size of the "Shahed" and the small ammunition load of the aircraft's cannon for such an apparatus. 150 rounds is nothing at all. The 30-mm air gun projectile is not designed for such a target. It just won't notice the plastic in its path. That is, you need to get into the engine. Again, in a 30 cm cube. From an airplane that flies at a minimum speed of 700 km/h.

So-so occupation.

At one time, I already considered the issue of combating drones, and then the conclusion was this: the best means is a low-speed aircraft such as a helicopter or a light aircraft with a piston engine, capable of loitering at low speed, covering a certain area.

The best means of combating a Shahed-class drone is a rapid-fire machine gun with a caliber of 7,62 to 12,7 mm. The ideal is something like the American M134 Minigun or our YakB-12,7. The main thing is to be able to quickly issue a cloud of bullets in the direction of the flying "Shahed". Something will fly in the right place.


M134 Minigun. UAV Fighter's Dream


YakB-12.7. A very weighty argument.

So the Americans very successfully fought unarmored Japanese aircraft in World War II. Guns were not needed, a couple of bullets from large-caliber Brownings were enough, and the song of the samurai was sung.

Quite a viable idea in our times.

The question of detection is the most difficult question. Judging by the reports from the other side, the Shaheds were mostly detected visually, fortunately, the drone flies even more ingenuously than a cruise missile. But at least the Stinger can fill up the CD, but the small rubbish, rattling literally a couple of hundred meters above the ground, is only a bullet.

In general, the developers of detection systems need to start solving the problem that flew on the wings of an Iranian drone. The problem of detecting a small aircraft must be solved, and the sooner the better. Why - it will become clear below.

Why are we not ready for this?


Because there was no such task: to work out the issues of detecting and destroying such aircraft. We had and are armed with flying targets, but this is a little different. The same "Tribute", a simulator of aircraft and cruise missiles, has dimensions of almost 5 meters in length and almost three meters in wingspan. It weighs about 350 kg and flies at speeds from 300 km/h to 700 km/h.


And here is 100 kg, rattling at a speed of 185 km / h, in ideal conditions. And the metal in the design is 17 kg maximum.

We need new ways to detect and track such targets. We need new methods of interception. As Ukrainian practice shows, defeat on the final leg of the flight is ineffective. More precisely, it is effective, but not when it comes to urban development, where an anti-aircraft missile first falls with the remnants of fuel, which, as expected, suits special effects, and then another 50-kg Shaheda warhead is added.

Indeed, it would be better to get to the CHP.

The most embarrassing question of our time


It sounds like this: can the Ukrainians adopt our tactics and start terrorizing our cities?

The answer, unfortunately, is “why not?”. And indeed, drones are produced in Ukraine on their own, approximately on the same level with us. That is, few and not very good. That is why unmanned vehicles are brought to them from all over the world. But they're taking it.

However, not all, not for free and not in the desired quantities. Israel generally refused, despite pressure from you-know-who, to sell its weapons systems to Ukrainians.

And not that “nothing personal, just business”, no. The Israelis have clearly worked the mechanisms that are controlled by the instinct of self-preservation. Nothing personal, yes, but I really want to live. Therefore, Israel chose not to seek adventure in the Holy Land and dispense with supplies to Ukraine.

After all, what did the Ukrainian side want in the main? That's right, Israeli UAVs and air defense systems. But in Israel they soberly judged that everything that would be sold to Ukraine could end up in Iran. But this is just not the alignment that would suit the Israelis, because Iran is an enemy country.

And all Israeli weapons can easily get to Iran, moreover, even in two ways. The first one, the simplest one, will be sold by the Ukrainians themselves. After the Javelin, handed over to Ukraine, tested the hull of the French armored personnel carrier in the center of Africa, this should not be surprising at all. Will sell if the price is right.

The second is through Russia. There, the equipment does not come into our possession for money, but this does not change the essence. In general, in this conflict, technology changes owners with amazing ease. And since the T-90MS ended up in the United States, why don't we share it with Iran, with which we have simply gorgeous relations? Can we?

That is why the very pragmatic Israelis refused. Not every shekel is in profit, as they say.

What would I do in the place of the Ukrainians?


Naturally, I would have stood in line for the "Shaheds" to Iran! Stupid? Well, not at all. Why not buy? Moreover, it is absolutely not necessary directly. There is already a queue. The Armenians were the first to rush, others followed them.

Who prevents Kazakhstan from standing in line and buying a "trial" batch of a hundred pieces? Nobody. A hundred too many? Okay, fifty. For testing and more. Is it difficult to smuggle part of this batch to Ukraine? No. One can only applaud the extent to which today's Kazakh authorities dance the hopak in unison with the Ukrainians.

Yes, and weapons from Kazakhstan have already ended up in Ukraine. Yes, the authorities seem to have turned away that “this is not what you think”, this is a private deal, the state has nothing to do with it ... but the point is the same - Kazakhstan may well become an intermediary in the acquisition of "Shaheds" for Ukraine. And Azerbaijan can. And Georgia. And the one who will be asked from Washington.

And it won't be a very pleasant moment. Today, Ukrainians are hammering the Belgorod and Kursk regions in the old fashioned way. Artillery and missiles. And having at their disposal a "miracle weapon" they can begin to work miracles even at a greater distance from the border.

And here the head will hurt not only in Kursk and Belgorod. The geography of the use of Ukrainian drones can be significantly expanded at the expense of the Rostov and Voronezh regions. But in principle, everything that is within a radius of 500 km, that is, the Oryol, Lipetsk, Tambov, Bryansk regions are also on this mournful list. Yes, and to Moscow, if you start from the forest between Sumy and Konotop, less than 600 km.

Moscow, of course, is covered, as no other Russian city is covered, but it will not be easy for everyone else. But even in Moscow, one should not be calm about what is happening.

The rest will not be easy at all. A new type of strike weapon was born before our eyes, and who said that the enemy, having experienced all the advantages of this type of weapon in his own skin, would not want to respond in kind?

This is a perfectly normal desire. And the methods by which this result can be achieved are quite vital. Well, why not start designing and building drones yourself? In the country, as it were, the situation is not quite suitable for such undertakings. But you can buy, especially since Europe and the United States throw money systematically and regularly. Of course, most of the military assistance is not in monetary terms, but Ukrainians will have enough to buy drones and pay intermediaries.

Not a very good prospect. Here, of course, a lot depends on the suppliers of this equipment, how carefully they will work out their customers. But, again, anything is possible.

Therefore, it is necessary to work out options for protection today. And there are few options. Yes, we have a "Shilka" capable of making a shower of 23-mm shells. We have a ZU-23-2M, which may well work for such purposes. But since you will often have to rely on the visual mode of operation, appropriate training of calculations and spotter observers is necessary.

Or very clear intelligence work is needed (which we clearly cannot boast of now), which will track the movements of launchers with their subsequent destruction. But this, unfortunately, looks a bit fantastic.

As practice shows, the temptation can be so great that the voice of reason (which is already neglected in Ukraine) will not be heard. And then we need to be prepared for the fact that "Shaheds" will also fly to us, who will be called "Periwinkles".
299 comments
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  1. -26
    22 October 2022 04: 50
    At the very least, the effectiveness of this miracle weapon is simply stunning, and the price-quality ratio simply makes the manufacturers of the corresponding weapons shudder nervously at night.
    / Is there any confirmation of this? Or a statement from the ceiling.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +18
      22 October 2022 06: 13
      Why don't you watch the news? Moreover, in terms of the primitiveness of the device and the ease of manufacture, it is difficult to find equals to it.
      1. -18
        22 October 2022 06: 27
        And what is the efficiency?
        Quote: U. Cheny
        Why don't you watch the news? Moreover, in terms of the primitiveness of the device and the ease of manufacture, it is difficult to find equals to it.
        1. +5
          22 October 2022 14: 16
          A drone had already flown in at the oil base in Belgorod in the summer, at that time it was still considered that UAVs were not needed, but apparently the conclusions were made.
          1. +11
            22 October 2022 15: 47
            UAV speeds are quite comparable with the aircraft of the 2nd World War.
            The best means of combating aircraft in World War II were fighters - similar aircraft, with a slightly higher speed and more ammunition.
            Conclusion: The best means of combating UAVs will be a fighter UAV. Armed with a machine gun with shrapnel rounds
            1. +2
              22 October 2022 17: 14
              Standard 12 gauge hunting cartridge. Automatic fire.
              Such drones follow the course strictly. They don't maneuver. A fighter drone stupidly goes into the tail and from 20 meters works out several short bursts of buckshot.
              1. +1
                22 October 2022 18: 58
                From 20 meters, when the ammunition detonates, the fighter will get it.
                And it’s easy to miss from a greater distance, if single, and the ammunition runs out quickly in a burst, you won’t take a lot of cartridges for flying equipment.
                So shrapnel is the best option. Meters from 150 approximately.
                1. +1
                  22 October 2022 19: 55
                  Detonation is an almost unreal event.
                  Definitely a queue. From 20 meters. Buckshot. It's hard to miss.
                  And with 150 it means they won’t miss ???
                  1. 0
                    22 October 2022 21: 52
                    Quote: garri-lin
                    Detonation is an almost unreal event.

                    After all, the detonator of a kamikaze will definitely react to a blow.
                    This is a standard situation for him (it is not in vain that it is blown up in a collision with an airplane)
                    What is needed is not buckshot, but shrapnel, configured to detonate at a distance of 150 meters. So don't miss out.
                    You overdid it about the queue. Effective "workhorses" will be light cheap models that can be riveted in tens of thousands. They will be demolished with one shot by recoil, after which a few seconds will be required for a new aiming.
                    But for the enemy - the same cheap plastic device and one shot is enough, either with shrapnel or buckshot.
                    1. +1
                      23 October 2022 01: 03
                      I didn't understand you. Do you propose to hit from a machine gun with bullets with controlled detonation from a light UAV from a distance of 150 meters? What is the caliber of that machine gun that your UAV will not demolish ????
                      1. +1
                        23 October 2022 07: 50
                        A good addition to intercept UAVs would be the Yak-52, which can be equipped with heavy machine guns and put cadets of the flight school on them. There are enough such aircraft, their speed is a maximum of 350, a minimum of 150, to intercept an UAV, that's what you need.
                      2. 0
                        23 October 2022 09: 28
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        I didn't understand you. Do you propose to hit from a machine gun with bullets with controlled detonation from a light UAV from a distance of 150 meters? What is the caliber of that machine gun that your UAV will not demolish ????

                        The famous "Akht-Akht" fired single shots. But he successfully shot down planes, because it was shrapnel.
                        So you don't need a machine gun. You just need a barrel that shoots single shots. Even the size of an anti-tank rifle is not needed - a barrel less than a meter long will suffice. Since the shrapnel detonation distance will be fixed (such cartridges are much cheaper than adjustable ones), such an UAV will operate at a distance of 150-200 meters, there is no need for a large barrel.
                        Such an UAV, by the way, will be effective against infantry
                      3. 0
                        23 October 2022 10: 33
                        Yak-52, which can be equipped with heavy machine guns


                        Yak-52B - shock, in the Monino Museum



                        only in the 21st century should such aircraft be unmanned, or at least remotely controlled (like radio models, if our aviation design bureaus are not capable).



                        In addition, Orion has a thermal imager and is able to hunt a low-speed target, though only on a collision course, because. has a speed of 200 km / h, which is not enough for an interceptor. But he has a margin in height.

                        As for radar visibility, it is quite large for Geranium 1/2.



                        Much more than Orlanov-10, which was seen by the Rostov ATC radar on the day of the MH17 crash when it was patrolling along our border (about 100 km). Those. The Ruin would have had no problem spotting the Geraniums early if they had a standby radar. But they don't work for them. we turn them off immediately.

                        From my point of view, Spanish small aircraft as air defense to combat UAVs in the dimension and cost of Geranium 1/2 is NOT effective, and will be needed only when our air defense stops working. For example, on Aliexpress they sell small UAVs in the dimension of Geraniums for about 10 mil. rubles i.e. Urk Reich has the ability to make Geraniums out of them, but they are ineffective against growing. Air defense as well as bayraktars.
                      4. 0
                        23 October 2022 20: 49
                        Yak-52B - shock, in the Monino Museum

                        This is a variant of a light attack aircraft, which did not go into the series.
                        In addition, Orion has a thermal imager and is able to hunt a low-speed target, though only on a collision course, because. has a speed of 200 km / h, which is not enough for an interceptor. But he has a margin in height.

                        Only we practically don’t have the Orion UAV and we need them for something else, and the Yak-52 has more than a hundred of them, there are places to repair them, and we have military flight school cadets who can get a raid along with combat experience and they can be put on duty in a month. And how long does it take to put the Orion UAVs on combat duty, which are not there?
                        From my point of view, Spanish small aircraft as air defense to combat UAVs in the dimension and cost of Geranium 1/2 is NOT effective, and will be needed only when our air defense stops working.

                        And what prevented our "all-seeing radars" from detecting and shooting down helicopters attacking Belgorod or UAVs attacking the Rostov Region? The answer is very simple, we do NOT have a continuous border cover that allows us to detect targets going to WWI, for this it is necessary that AWACS aircraft are constantly in the air on combat duty, which are practically non-existent and are not expected in the next 10-20 years in the required quantity. This means that right now we are defenseless against this threat.
                      5. -2
                        24 October 2022 16: 54
                        The answer is very simple, we do NOT have a continuous border cover

                        if it were not there, then airstrikes on our territory would continue
                      6. 0
                        25 October 2022 10: 59
                        I, to you, will reveal a "military secret" ALL training aircraft were supposed to be dual-purpose, in cases of a big war, all training aircraft were drafted into the Air Force, weapons were provided for them, it seems machine guns. So, everything is new, well-forgotten old, especially since there was information about the downed Ukrainian Su-28.
                      7. 0
                        24 November 2022 10: 35
                        Why yak 52? The Yak130 has a minimum speed of 210 km/h, which is enough not to catch up with the drone too quickly during the flight, and equipping this machine with helicopter containers with 7.62 machine guns is an elementary thing. And he can fight not only with drones, but also do almost the same as the Su-25, only cheaper. The principle of the same "shaheda" is the cheapest aircraft capable of doing business for a penny.
                      8. 0
                        23 October 2022 10: 39
                        Here we can agree. I don't agree about the large caliber. It's just not necessary.
              2. 0
                23 October 2022 16: 15
                and receives in return a 50 kg of TNT engine flying from the explosion in the forehead. and a bunch of small debris in the appendage. with the cost of the aircraft at 1000 martyrs, this will be an excellent exchange
                1. -1
                  23 October 2022 19: 27
                  We cannot read. Only write. And that is unknown.
            2. +1
              22 October 2022 19: 35
              The best means of combat will remain a high-explosive fragmentation projectile, for example, a 30 mm caliber. In which the explosion time will be set, for example, 1 sec, or 0.7 sec. after the shot. And such shells should already be started to be made, and they should be fought with all types of UAVs.
              1. 0
                22 October 2022 22: 02
                Such a projectile can be placed on ground vehicles or helicopters. A ground-based drone cannot be kept up, although it will be effective for air defense of objects (only the distance of detonation must be entered by the computer, and not by a person). And the helicopter itself is vulnerable to air defense, and you can’t put them on defense every km of the front.
                So UAV fighters are definitely needed, massive and cheap
              2. 0
                23 October 2022 00: 44
                A representative of the corporation told National Defense magazine about the successful testing of 30x133 mm dual-use high-explosive fragmentation cartridges for the M230LF Bushmaster machine gun. The ammunition is equipped with a small sensor that detects drones, then an explosion occurs, with the drone being damaged by shrapnel, rather than a direct hit by a projectile.

                The company is keeping exactly how the new round works under wraps, but according to a Northrop Grumman spokesman, the RF sensor inside each round is based on sensing technology "that has been around for decades." Currently, new cartridges have already begun to enter service with the US Army.

                In addition to being highly effective against small drones, the new munition is said to be unique in that its cost is several times lower than other systems for destroying UAVs. For automatic targeting, a special ACE program is used, but, as a representative of the developer company emphasized, the M230LF Bushmaster cartridge and machine gun can work with any guidance system.
              3. +2
                23 October 2022 08: 28
                After all, we have developed the Derivation anti-aircraft artillery mount with a 57 mm automatic cannon, and shells with programmable detonation have just been developed for it, so we finally need to start using it for its intended purpose.
              4. -1
                23 October 2022 08: 50
                The best means of combat will remain a high-explosive fragmentation projectile, for example, a 30 mm caliber

                Everything has already been thought of before us. Rheinmetal offers several options, 4-5 laser installations, concentrate beams on drones and cruise missiles from which the latter explode, or a machine gun installation with radar and programmable bullets has been developed and is being produced, which can perfectly cover important objects.
                By the way, the difference between other military firms is that they themselves advertise their products, the German chancellor does not position the company's achievements as a personal success, and experimental models do not participate in parades
            3. +1
              22 October 2022 21: 41
              Quote: Shurik70
              The best means of combating UAVs will be

              The possibility of him, this Geranium, Periwinkle to detect in time. And there it’s a matter of technology ... You say rumbles, this shahid .... So acoustic detection ... One of the ways ...
              1. +1
                23 October 2022 08: 57
                acoustic detection

                There is an installation for the "Penicillin" counter-battery fight, with acoustic detection, which may well detect "shahid mopeds"
            4. 0
              23 October 2022 12: 41
              I have already written many times that you need to object to La5 (training and sports aircraft armed with a machine gun) and DOSAAF cadets, you can’t imagine cheaper. Means of detection, apparently infrared cameras and other means of visual observation along the perimeter of cities (the experience of the Second World War will have to involve the population, the police and the Ministry of Emergency Situations in observing the sky) fellow important objects need to be covered with scaffolding with stretched nets, nets also need to be pulled on the roofs (I wonder if Shahid will help? what ). He is guided by GPS, which means that he also corrects himself in the final section, probably EW can confuse him, EW in the suburbs should work.
              In principle, our air defenses shoot down a lot of UAVs, there is something to shoot down from the ground, but such air defense is super expensive against flying trash
              1. 0
                24 October 2022 10: 15
                The aircraft is needed according to the duck scheme in order to install an OLS on it, then laser-guided missiles can be suspended and destroyed from a safe distance.
            5. +1
              24 October 2022 10: 13
              Your shahid is knocked off with a bang by Tunguska, Pine and Pantsyr, even Osa AKM works out perfectly if it gets into view. all these missile systems. cannons consume large shells and warheads do not detonate.
            6. 0
              25 October 2022 06: 49
              it turns out a one-time fighter with shrapnel cartridges ... the effective range of such ammunition will be about 50 meters, or even less .. when firing at intersecting courses, even less .. after hitting and detonating explosives on a UAV target, this "fighter" will practically guaranteed to be disabled .. so this is not an option ...
            7. 0
              26 October 2022 03: 32
              [/ quote] The best means of combating UAVs will be a fighter UAV. Armed with a machine gun with shrapnel rounds [quote]
              This will already be a rather bulky UAV, should the recoil from the machine gun be compensated somehow? And if you use a UAV like "Lancet" but with a powder engine? Yes, and the problem of air defense, in my opinion, can be solved, but not to go out with phased arrays, but to create air defense that will focus on sound, well, like a gramophone, like in the Second World War, in our time, you can use a sensitive microphone and write a program that will filter extraneous sounds, for example, in terms of purity in decibels, in my opinion, and the rocket that will go to the sound, you can think of, should not be large and not complicated. Well, if I piled up nonsense, then don’t blame me already, unfortunately I’m not educated feel
              1. +1
                26 October 2022 13: 11
                IMHO, it's time to stop raving about these gramophones ...
                These are ersatz technologies, dead-end ones - they were used in the Second World War, because radar was not yet developed. With the advent of radar, forget about gramophones forever, for a million reasons. I won't even list.
                Geraniums are highly visible on radar, they fly quite high, since they do not have telecontrol and terrain following programs like classic cruise missiles. For a second, loading the mission for the flight of the Tomahawk takes about 30 minutes, and during the flight the rocket checks the reference points in order to go low in the corridor of terrain folds.
                1. 0
                  26 October 2022 14: 03
                  recourse It’s clear, then I’ll go further to turn the nuts, I won’t be an air defense specialist crying
        2. +6
          22 October 2022 15: 21
          Quote: Maxim G
          And what is the efficiency?

          Why write this? just for a question?
          Shaheeds are not effective? And such a projectile (let's call it that), which arrived at the electrical substation in your area specifically, will answer your question?
          1. -17
            22 October 2022 15: 42
            And are they effective? And how was this effectiveness assessed and by whom?
            Based on emotional evaluation from watching news stories?
            1. +4
              22 October 2022 17: 26
              Quote: Maxim G
              And how was this effectiveness assessed and by whom?

              For example me. In the following way:
              - the price of the transformer is 30 tons of dollars, the price of Shahid is 15.
              -Ukrainian air defense is practically powerless.
              Target hit, mission accomplished.
              What other performance indicators are needed? Or are you waiting for the analysis of some kind of Heritage Foundation?
              And think for yourself?
              1. -9
                22 October 2022 17: 58
                And each such drone gets into the transformer? Or not?
                1. 0
                  22 October 2022 22: 23
                  Quote: Maxim G
                  Or not?

                  Well taught you, I understand. But still I will answer: not everyone gets hit, but they shoot down very little (otherwise there would be a bunch of motivating videos, and there’s nothing). The damage is colossal from them, and everyone is already saying this, even the enemy. Isn't this an indicator of efficiency?
                  You can not answer me, especially in the style of a question. You know what I mean, thousand captain!
                  1. -4
                    23 October 2022 04: 06
                    Quote: konstantin68
                    . Isn't this an indicator of efficiency?

                    Not this.
                    Apparently it can’t even occur to you that such a thing is elementary. And it's a matter of time until Ukraine is supplied with air defense against it, as they supplied MANPADS and ATGMs before.
                    And then what to do?

                    And the answer is simple - you need to hit with modern normal weapons, and not with this ersatz of aviation, cruise missiles, MLRS, self-propelled guns, etc.
                    1. 0
                      23 October 2022 08: 48
                      Quote: Maxim G
                      And it's a matter of time until Ukraine is provided with air defense against it

                      They won't provide it until that's for sure.
                      This is a matter of a very long time. During this time it is necessary to resolve issues with Ukraine.
                      There are not many systems in the world that allow you to "effectively" deal with such blas. "You won't walk through the market"
                    2. +1
                      23 October 2022 08: 50
                      Quote: Maxim G
                      Apparently it can’t even occur to you that such a thing goes astray

                      And they shot down a lot? More precisely: a lot did not reach the goal? Have a photo/video?
                      Very little. The goal is difficult. Modern air defense was "sharpened" for a different type of aircraft. Now the smart ones draw conclusions.
                      1. -5
                        23 October 2022 11: 42
                        Not difficult - it cannot fly to WWI, the speed is low, it is visible on the radar.
                        Plus a small charge of 50 kg, those who happily rush about with geraniums for some reason forget that there are bombs under 100, 500 kg over a kg in weight.
                      2. -1
                        23 October 2022 11: 55
                        Quote: Maxim G
                        Not difficult

                        So they shot down a lot? in a relationship? if not complicated.
                      3. -3
                        24 October 2022 10: 11
                        It depends on which radar ... the hospital will not see. I won't say anything about mobile phones, I don't know.
                    3. +1
                      23 October 2022 08: 59
                      such a thing goes astray

                      When they start shooting down, then come, but for now 404 rolling blackouts have begun, the cities are in darkness.
                2. 0
                  23 October 2022 08: 33
                  Almost everyone, and before you ask your idiotic questions, it would not hurt to become more familiar with the statistics on the use of "Geraniums" in Ukraine.
                  1. -2
                    23 October 2022 11: 38
                    Well, in order not to look like an idiot in MY eyes, give statistics.
                    Only reliable. the author did not bother.
            2. +4
              23 October 2022 02: 48
              Quote: Maxim G
              And are they effective?

              More than .
              You, young man, are obviously not up to date with the latest British intelligence reports in Ukraine about work on some downed Geranium-2s, and there is a very interesting point there. A Russian navigation unit "Glonas" was found at Geranium-2, which explains the amazing ACCURACY of these UAVs. At the level of the best cruise missiles.
              The original "Shahed-136" has an inertial guidance system, the accuracy of which drops sharply with increasing range and is unsatisfactory even at a distance of over 200 - 300 km. (this is their value judgment). But with the Russian navigation unit, this ammunition acquires simply amazing capabilities. Moreover, at any, including the maximum, range.
              If desired, such "mopeds" can hit not only Kyiv and Lvov, but also Warsaw, Berlin, Paris and even London. Moreover, it is massive and at any time of the day. It is possible even across the USA from any bulk carrier, container ship or bulk carrier. Massed.
              You will laugh, but this is not funny - you can put a 152 mm nuclear warhead in such an UAV as a warhead. projectile in a special design. bully
              Just a song, not "Geranium-2".
              By the way, the presence of such a Russian navigation unit just makes "Geran-2" out of "Shahed". So stop calling our attack drones the Iranian name of their ancestor. "Geraniums" are produced in the Russian Federation, in large quantities, several hundred per month.
              And emotions, you have it there, when the engine without a silencer rumbles over your heads. love Seen.
              1. -4
                23 October 2022 04: 02
                Quote: bayard
                And emotions, you have it there, when the engine without a silencer rumbles over your heads. Seen.

                Those. all the same emotions.
                Once, instead of confirmation, they cite their own fabrications about effectiveness, rather than confirmed data, and accusations that are standard for local balabols of belonging to the Kyiv regime.

                By the way, where did you get acquainted with British intelligence reports? In another article?
                1. +1
                  23 October 2022 14: 25
                  Quote: Maxim G
                  By the way, where did you get acquainted with British intelligence reports? In another article?

                  There are translations from British sources, and there are yours - Ukrainian ones with links to British intelligence. Yes, and on their specialists.
                  Quote: Maxim G
                  Those. all the same emotions.

                  Maksimka, are you a robot?
                  Moreover, it is primitive, without logic and analysis of what has been read.
                  Quote: Maxim G
                  instead of confirmation, their own fabrications about effectiveness are given

                  About the effectiveness of our colors of life, all your publics are full of. Arestovich is sad. And for those who are especially stubborn, we will bring the quality of our products through the quantity and regularity of their use.
                  You still have a lot of wonderful discoveries.
                  Brace yourself.
                2. -2
                  24 October 2022 10: 14
                  Well, can you give us your statistics? Since you say that it goes astray ...
      2. 0
        23 October 2022 08: 51
        Quote: U. Cheny
        Moreover, in terms of the primitiveness of the device and the ease of manufacture, it is difficult to find equals to it.

        What we know is low speed, loud sound, stealth ... What is needed is the refinement of artillery spotters (detection, aiming) + "shotguns - shrapnel gunners" in one complex, along the perimeter of possible UAV launch sites .., or protected objects
      3. -2
        24 October 2022 10: 04
        In Odessa, where there are German Cheetahs (an analogue of our Shilka-Tunguska), a rather large percentage of geraniums is shot down
        1. -1
          16 November 2023 22: 16
          Our Zushki fire conventional shells, while our Cheetahs fire with programmable detonation. They explode in the way of Geraniums, which fly into a swarm of fragments. In addition, Cheetahs are controlled automatically from their radar and are also controlled from the command post, which also has its own radar. I don’t know how the Tunguskas are controlled. But the Shilkas are definitely controlled by farting steam. So we have quite a few problems. I think only the Shell can shoot down the Periwinkles effectively.
      4. -1
        16 November 2023 22: 09
        Well, it's not that primitive. The entire control system is similar to a cruise missile, but can be slightly simplified. The engine is the trick. An internal combustion engine is much cheaper and more economical than a turbojet. But you won’t save much on the case.
    3. +3
      22 October 2022 06: 19
      Maybe try to develop a mesh projectile? well, suppose we visually determined the target, a projectile is launched when approaching, the head part explodes and nets are thrown out from other nylon threads such as parachute lines, the task is to tie and confuse the screws of the "moped".
      1. -2
        22 October 2022 06: 29
        Why invent something? There is a radar station, there is anti-aircraft artillery and machine guns. The earlier slow-moving planes were shot down.
        1. +11
          22 October 2022 08: 16
          it seems like in Syria our Shells are successfully fighting this.
          1. -5
            23 October 2022 01: 08
            The shell, alas, is easily knocked out by harms now in the NWO zone. Syria is not Ukraine.
        2. +6
          22 October 2022 08: 30
          Most radars do not see him. And when he sees it, it's already too late.
          1. -12
            22 October 2022 08: 33
            Where does such data come from? Also from the ceiling?
            1. +5
              22 October 2022 08: 45
              From open sources, seek and you will find.
              1. -14
                22 October 2022 08: 53
                Those. You cannot confirm your words with anything, however, this is a common thing here.
                1. +9
                  22 October 2022 12: 41
                  Quote: -Paul-
                  Most radars do not see him. And when he sees it, it's already too late.

                  At one time, Pantsir-S was scolded for seeing a lot of superfluous things. The same birds he took for targets. Now this problem is not heard, it is possible that it was solved at the software level. Yes, and drones in Syria are shot down with something, even when they attack in flocks.
                  Another issue is the availability of shells with remote detonation in caliber 30mm. Do we have them in stock? Their presence would increase the effectiveness of the same "Shell" against drones, at times.
                  1. +4
                    22 October 2022 13: 02
                    Radars see TB2, they see shells (counter-battery radars).
                    Now it turns out that they don’t see “Geraniums”, people like to believe in fairy tales ...
                    1. +5
                      22 October 2022 15: 24
                      Quote: Maxim G
                      Radars see TB2, see shells (counter-battery radars)

                      It's not about that. simply "Shell" is not enough for all objects, relatively speaking. Just recently, I personally submitted an application to cover our object with "Pantsir" or "Thor". While there is no possibility. So here it is.
                      And yes, Harma / x-58 has not been canceled
                  2. +1
                    23 October 2022 08: 37
                    We already have anti-aircraft artillery. "Derivation" system with a 57 mm caliber automatic cannon.
                    1. 0
                      28 October 2022 18: 23
                      It is suitable for covering columns and small objects. The range is too short, it seems only 6 km, which means that with overlap and cover it is necessary to set every 3 km. Where can you find so many crews and equipment for 1200 km of borders. Therefore, if you want / don’t want to, you will have to cover the air defense system, and not the air defense system, although they are cheaper.
                  3. +1
                    31 October 2022 21: 27
                    30 no.
                    57 is, and then not with a remote detonation, but with a programmable one, when the delay is transferred to the projectile before firing.
            2. 0
              26 October 2022 00: 00
              Where does such data come from? Also from the ceiling?

              Well, firstly, no one will lay out any reliable statistics for you.
              Secondly, why is our "ceiling" worse than yours? wassat Assumptions are made based on fragmentary information and general considerations of both amateurs and those who dealt with radars.
              1. 0
                26 October 2022 16: 12
                Do the basic physical principles of radio wave propagation somehow change depending on rumors and advertising stuffing?
                1. 0
                  26 October 2022 18: 34
                  Do the basic physical principles of radio wave propagation somehow change depending on rumors and advertising stuffing?

                  Physical principles are known only as far as they can be measured. Roughly speaking, one radar can detect, while the other cannot. And accordingly, one missile can shoot down, and the other cannot. Therefore, the effectiveness is evaluated not by physical principles, but by the result. And these are statistics that no one spreads.
                  1. 0
                    26 October 2022 23: 57
                    For any radar, you can dig up its performance characteristics: wavelengths, resolution, detection range. It is similar for missiles: min / max range of use, probability of hitting, guidance methods, type and presence of seeker. In the absence of electronic warfare counteraction, these parameters are quite enough for conclusions. And forum chatter, refutation - all this is from the evil one. I still meet idiots on the Internet who, in all seriousness, tell me about the stealth technologies used in Bayraktar. The invisibility of Geraniums, about which he wrote "-Paul- 22 October 2022 08:30" - from the same series. By the way, there was no talk about the effectiveness of missiles in his post (but apparently it was conjectured), but you expanded it without specifying what kind of missiles these were. Maybe we are talking about those in whose TK no one set the task of catching flies.
          2. +8
            22 October 2022 10: 53
            Most radars do not see him. And when he sees it, it's already too late.

            Ukrainians do not have systems like the "Shell". And that's their problem. By the way, our specialists have already proposed to develop a system of counter-battery warfare on the basis of the Pantsir radar station. The radar detects a flying projectile, and the on-board computer quickly calculates the coordinates of artillery positions along the trajectory.
            Another example: the English ship systems "Sivulf" detected and shot down incoming 114-mm artillery shells during tests. And these flying clunkers will shoot down, and even more so.
            1. -3
              22 October 2022 16: 39
              Quote: Askold65
              Ukrainians do not have systems like "Shell"

              Ukrainians have artillery and air defense radars and they are being transported more of them, including specialized anti-drone solutions.
              Quote: Askold65
              The radar detects a flying projectile, and the on-board computer quickly calculates the coordinates of artillery positions along the trajectory.

              Any sufficiently powerful radar can work like an artillery one - it's just a matter of the control system software. They write that such an opportunity was screwed to AWACS, but I can’t vouch for the veracity.

              But. What will your shell do with these coordinates, even if it calculates them?
              1. +2
                22 October 2022 17: 37
                Quote: Negro
                Ukrainians have artillery and air defense radars and they are being transported more of them, including specialized anti-drone solutions.

                They have an air defense radar, but they do not have a mobile ADVANCED air defense system that allows them to work on small-sized aircraft weapons (ASP), such as incoming missiles, bombs and UAVs. Any "Arrows" and "Wasps" that they have do not have such capabilities or have extremely low efficiency. Which proves the helplessness of the Ukrainian air defense. So far, dill has a very limited number of modern Western systems.
                Quote: Negro
                But. What will your shell do with these coordinates, even if it calculates them?

                You yourself wrote that: "Any sufficiently powerful radar can work like an artillery one - it's just a matter of the control system software."
                From the "Pantsir" there will be only a COMPACT radar for detecting flying targets, and the system (some kind of "Zoo - 4"), based on the trajectory, will calculate the coordinates of the location of enemy artillery positions and issue target designation for counter-battery artillery. I mentioned the "Pantsir" only in the context that, with its compact size, its radars are capable of detecting even artillery shells. I do not exclude that he can shoot them down, but this is not advisable from the point of view of cost / efficiency. "Bayraktars" and "Shahids" for "Shell" are just a target.
                1. -2
                  22 October 2022 18: 02
                  Quote: Askold65
                  Any "Arrows" and "Wasps" that they have do not have such capabilities or have extremely low efficiency.

                  Yes, Soviet air defense does not solve such a problem, and it breathes its last. Therefore, the issue of the supply of crotals and avengers is being decided.
                  Quote: Askold65
                  Which proves the helplessness of Ukrainian air defense

                  The "helplessness of Ukrainian air defense" led to the appearance of weapons in the 8th month of the NMD, which the Russian Federation did not release, does not release and never intended to use.
                  Quote: Askold65
                  From the "Shell" there will be only a COMPACT radar for detecting flying targets, and the system (some kind of "Zoo - 4"), based on the trajectory, will calculate the coordinates of the location of enemy artillery positions and issue target designation for counter-battery artillery

                  That is, you are describing an information-strike node, with which the RF Armed Forces, to put it mildly, are not going smoothly. It’s not clear why you clung to the Shell (which is used mainly by the Aerospace Forces, and not by the army) - the army should have its own counter-battery radars.
                  1. +1
                    22 October 2022 18: 27
                    Quote: Negro
                    Therefore, the issue of the supply of crotals and avengers is being decided.

                    Crotal is an outdated and decommissioned complex of the French army. The Avenger uses missiles from the Stinger MANPADS with an IR seeker, which does not work well against small and low-contrast targets.
                    Quote: Negro
                    The "helplessness of Ukrainian air defense" led to the appearance of weapons in the 8th month of the NMD, which the Russian Federation did not release, does not release and never intended to use.

                    What is this miracle weapon?
                    Quote: Negro
                    It’s not clear why you clung to the Shell (which is used mainly by the Aerospace Forces, and not by the army)

                    Once again --- "Shell" is capable of detecting, including EVEN artillery shells, and even more so "Shahids" and shooting them down --- in the light of the discussion to this article. Dill has practically no such systems.
                    The army has some kind of counter-battery radars, but it seems that their effectiveness does not suit the military. If there are proposals to develop others, based on proven and more effective systems.
                    1. -4
                      22 October 2022 18: 38
                      Quote: Askold65
                      Crotal is an outdated and decommissioned complex of the French army. The Avenger uses missiles from the Stinger MANPADS with an IR seeker, which does not work well against small and low-contrast targets.

                      Both are enough for a moped.
                      Quote: Askold65
                      What is this miracle weapon?

                      The article discusses the Iranian moped, in case you haven't noticed.
                      1. +3
                        22 October 2022 20: 52
                        Quote: Negro
                        Both are enough for a moped.

                        If the first one can still, in principle, work on "mopeds", then the question is how many of them will be brought to Ukraine and what kind of equipment is there.
                        As for the latter, there are more than enough Stinger systems in Ukraine. If they had a laser CH, then it would be another matter.
                        Quote: Negro
                        The article discusses the Iranian moped, in case you haven't noticed.

                        I noticed that Ukrainian air defense has a very indirect relationship to the emergence of this type of weapon. The main advantages of these "mopeds" are their ease of use, low cost and range on the target. With the helpless Ukrainian air defense, such flying objects will do. Yes
                        The "helplessness of Ukrainian air defense" led to the appearance of weapons in the 8th month of the NMD, which the Russian Federation did not release, does not release and never intended to use.

                        There is a "Lancet", there is a "Cube" operating in the near zone of the database. But there is
                        advanced UNMANNED systems - CR and operational-tactical BR. But they are expensive, and therefore, as an option, with Ukrainian air defense being weak at the moment for small-sized targets, they purchased (oh, they produced ...) inexpensive devices. Such ersatz- KR. Cheap and cheerful. good
                      2. -1
                        22 October 2022 21: 45
                        Quote: Askold65
                        As for the latter, there are more than enough Stinger systems in Ukraine ..

                        When shooting from the shoulder, it is difficult to ensure 24/7 duty. We need automation.
                        Quote: Askold65
                        If they had a laser CH, then it would be another matter.

                        As far as I know, the Americans believe that the cooled stinger head is enough for any non-electric UAV
                        Quote: Askold65
                        I noticed that Ukrainian air defense has a very indirect relation to the appearance of this type of weapon

                        The most direct. We had to look for mopeds only because the planes in the Ukrainian rear quickly flew off and native Soviet cast iron is used no further than the line of contact.
                      3. +1
                        22 October 2022 22: 53
                        Quote: Negro
                        When shooting from the shoulder, it is difficult to ensure 24/7 duty. We need automation.
                        As far as I know, the Americans believe that the cooled stinger head is enough for any non-electric UAV

                        These UAVs appear in the sky in front of the entire "chess people" with a roar and crackle, which is heard even further. And somehow MANPADS can't cope. The good old machine guns were much more effective.
                        From the article:
                        If the radar does not “grab” the drone’s engine, you should not count on IR systems at all, the air-cooled internal combustion engine is generally cold in comparison with a normal turbojet engine of either an airplane or a helicopter. Not every warhead will capture a drone.

                        --------------------------------

                        Quote: Negro
                        The most direct. We had to look for mopeds only because the planes in the Ukrainian rear quickly flew off and native Soviet cast iron is used no further than the line of contact.

                        It’s not a fact at all .... Planes may have flown off, but the KR and BR still fly. But they are expensive and there are not many of them. Therefore, we bought a large batch of budget devices. I wrote - cheap and cheerful. And again, such a question - how is it that planes do not fly, but their air defense cannot cope against mopeds? I repeat once again - in the segment of small targets, the air defense of Ukraine has problems today.
                        Aircraft took over the functions of our air defense and launching missiles without entering the enemy air defense zone, in the light of modern trends - why risk pilots and expensive cars if you can work from afar. Israeli Jews attack targets in Syria in the same way, and do not bomb terrorist bases with native Israeli cast iron.
                        And by the way, why are the guys from the pro-Iranian Hezbollah shelling Israeli territory with flying pipes, and not launching "flying mopeds" at them? This is how I think - that this number will not work against Israel, which has excellent air defense.
                      4. -2
                        22 October 2022 23: 11
                        Quote: Askold65
                        something like MANPADS can't cope

                        This may be due to the fact that in the city it is somehow not customary to carry MANPADS with you. On the other hand, the KKP is also rare.
                        Quote: Askold65
                        From the article

                        You never know what is written in the article. As if the author has something about this other than his own guesses.

                        Quote: Askold65
                        The planes may have taken off, but the KR and BR still fly.

                        On the eighth month, the SVO became aware that the CD was worth around $2 million, and the BRMD was around $20 million. This was a big surprise.
                        There are of course any greetings from comrade. Khrushchev, but they do not get anywhere.
                        Quote: Askold65
                        again such a question - how is it that planes do not fly, but their air defense cannot cope against mopeds?

                        Because, as you rightly noted, the air defense systems of the Brezhnev era were not designed for such purposes.
                        Quote: Askold65
                        in the segment of small targets, the air defense of Ukraine has problems today.

                        Today Ukraine has many problems. It would be strange to argue with this.
                        Quote: Askold65
                        Israeli Jews attack targets in Syria in the same way, and do not bomb terrorist bases with native Israeli cast iron.

                        Israeli Jews, as far as I know, do not buy weapons from Iran.
                        Quote: Askold65
                        By the way, why are the guys from the pro-Iranian Hezbollah shelling Israeli territory with flying pipes, and not launching "flying mopeds" at them?

                        Because the advantage of a moped over the RS is only the range. Hezbollah does not really need a range, it is enough to fire at any border town.
                      5. +2
                        23 October 2022 10: 00
                        Quote: Negro
                        This may be due to the fact that in the city it is somehow not customary to carry MANPADS with you.

                        Drones have been attacking Ukrainian facilities for weeks in a row. What are the reasons not to place observation posts with MANPADS crews on high-rise buildings? One can only guess. Sitting, smoking, listening and looking closely in shift mode 24/7 is not difficult at all. The usual "air defense guard". They sit on the "front" and nothing ...

                        Quote: Negro
                        On the eighth month, the SVO became aware that the KR costs around $2 million, and the BRMD around $20 million.

                        What did you screw up. I heard about 50 million rubles apiece (though I don’t remember for which model). Well, let's say "Caliber" - 50 million rubles, divided by 60 rubles. -- total: 833 333, 3333 rubles. This is somewhat cheaper than the American "Tomahawk" and closer to reality. And for $20 you can already buy a plane.
                        Expensive. And they are used to attack large, important protected objects, which "Shaheeds" are "too tough". Why spend an expensive rocket on some transformer substation in some Zhmerynka, if the same task can be solved with a cheap drone. The so-called "economics of war" -- cost/efficiency.

                        Quote: Negro
                        Israeli Jews, as far as I know, do not buy weapons from Iran.

                        But you should also be aware that they buy a lot of things in other countries. Russia, out, also does not buy weapons in the United States.
                        The Syrians have even worse air defense than the Ukrainians, and NATO satellites and AWACS do not give them target designation. But even with such air defense, the Israelis do not risk far invading the airspace of the SAR.

                        Quote: Negro
                        Because the advantage of a moped over the RS is only the range. Hezbollah does not really need a range, it is enough to fire at any border town.

                        Not only. RS is even cheaper, faster than a drone and less vulnerable to air defense. Especially with a massive launch. The range of impact on the territory of Israel "Hezbollah" certainly would not hurt. Dropping 50 kg of explosives on the heads of the Jews in the city where they relaxed is worth it. But Israel has excellent air defense and the Shahid has no chance of reaching the target. But if Hezbollah suddenly has "Iranian" Iskanders, then Israel will have problems.
        3. +15
          22 October 2022 09: 22
          So in this concept - the cost of air defense = this is already a victory for Shahid. A Thor/Buk missile fired in a war of attrition = Shahid's victory, etc.

          Look, why gouge in one place? They open a map of objects 1000 km away and build different routes through forest-fields to sparsely populated areas. Bach and arrival at the factories / critical infrastructure of Yaroslavl (for example, he has 3 thermal power plants provide heating, in the freezing cold -15 = there are massive arrivals in all = emergency shutdown = freezing of the system = Next what? Evacuate the city? Where? Beyond the Urals?). Bach and arrival a Nizhny. Bach and arrival in Ulyanovsk. Well, etc. All sorts of refineries and other facilities, where the main thing is to bang, and then it will superbly self-destruct. If air defense crews are assigned to each such object, then another 2-3 million anti-aircraft gunners (again, to ensure 24/7 duty) + get the anti-aircraft guns of the War, because all Zushki, Shilka and so on will end even on the construction of borders near Moscow, Rostov and Bryansk.
          1. -1
            22 October 2022 09: 41
            In any case, there will be air defense costs. Because there is aviation.
          2. +7
            22 October 2022 10: 05
            Quote: donavi49
            So in this concept - the cost of air defense = this is already a victory for Shahid ...

            If air defense calculations are set for each such object, then another 2-3 million anti-aircraft gunners are needed

            But there is one caveat. At a speed of 180 km / h, Shahid flies to a maximum range of 11 hours. If you spot him at the beginning of the path, then there is a lot of time to bring him down. For example, send a fighter jet to meet... or even a helicopter!

            Therefore, we need to focus primarily on early detection.
            1. +2
              22 October 2022 10: 27
              Does he fly straight? For example, you found him in the area in Bryansk. They picked up the plane, and by that time it had turned to the Orlovsky Polesie region and was going through sparsely populated areas to Kaluga, or it would turn again and go in general towards Tambov.

              Now multiply this by night time. For such UAVs do not care at all, night or day, they go by satellite + INS. Moreover, if we are talking about the conditional "Shalena Bdzhilka" - then it is quite likely that there will be access to a military GPS and a good duplicated or double-duplicated INS of European manufacturers (that is, they will arrive even with a shift / loss of the GPS exactly to the sublimates of Russia's largest refinery - Slavnevti, for example , and this is its closure for a couple of years).
              1. +3
                22 October 2022 13: 01
                Create and distribute a mobile application. Heard a buzzing - pressed the button.
              2. +4
                22 October 2022 13: 10
                Quote: donavi49
                Does he fly straight?

                I really don't understand what is the problem here. And what about sound pickups-direction finders, is it incomprehensible to the "wunderwaffe"? What is the problem now to quickly manufacture such mobile direction finders and use them against such UAVs. With all the advantages of the propeller-motor group, it has a huge drawback in the form of a strong sound emitted. There is no problem detecting this sound, if you also use a small computer in this case on such a mobile sound direction finder, of course, it will not give accurate aim, but it will be able to indicate the bearing. Well, then "a matter of technology"
                1. +4
                  22 October 2022 14: 07
                  The primary frontier is 1000-1200 km and more in depth. Secondary lines should already cover 2000 km conditionally along a wide front. Tertiary (along the Volga). At the same time, special attention should be paid to wild and hard-to-reach places, through which routes will probably be laid.

                  And then to do with false alarms, the level of a boy on a moped is lucky for girls from a disco?
                  1. 0
                    22 October 2022 17: 35
                    Quote: donavi49
                    And then to do with false alarms, the level of a boy on a moped is lucky for girls from a disco?

                    Seems like a smart idea to run say 5 rumblers. Attach a muffler / turbine to one or two so that it rumbles noticeably less.
                    1. 0
                      22 October 2022 19: 34
                      From the installation of a silencer, the range will drop sharply.
                  2. -2
                    22 October 2022 22: 34
                    Quote: donavi49
                    And then to do with false alarms, the level of a boy on a moped is lucky for girls from a disco?


                    You mean "false positives"?
                    In order to avoid "false positives" - it is already necessary to build an early warning system that checks false information through its own channels and filters out unnecessary information.
                    If we are talking about seven professional (not military) equipment, then the controller decomposes this signal into, conditionally, 1000 parts and not only confidently classifies this signal, but will also be able to assign a separate number to the signature (if there is more than one target) and transmit this numbered signature further for escort.
              3. +3
                22 October 2022 13: 37
                Quote: donavi49
                Does he fly straight? For example, you found him in the area in Bryansk. They lifted the plane, and by that time it had turned

                He yells so loudly that half of Ukraine visually knows where he is. And it flies so quietly that there is time to look. And you don’t have to look far for examples - the Ukrainian MiG-29 and Geran found each other.

                The technology of search and subsequent destruction, with all the imperfections of primitive UAVs, I think, should still be worked out. This is not a modern cruise missile, after all.
                1. +5
                  22 October 2022 13: 58
                  As for yelling loudly - again, this is not a fact. The number of false reports will just put the whole system down. Especially if there is panic - because the chainsaw in the backyard of Ivan Ivanovich from the other end of the village will be regarded as a UAV flying.

                  You still forget about distances and population. It is impossible to lay a route conditionally through the Sumy-Kyiv-Cherkasy region outside populated areas. But in Bryansk-Kursk-Voronezh, everything is not so clear, and if you go further to the Volga, then there whole air wedges with light and music will fly relatively unnoticed with a good study of the route.

                  Of course they will work, but the level of costs exceeds the level of costs for creation and production. That is, again, in a war of attrition, this is the victory of Shahid / Crazy Bjilka. And at the same time, again, the desired level of interception / shortfall of 0,9 - with a realistic release of 200 Shaheeds / Bjilok per month, gives quite good damage of 20 arrivals.
                  1. 0
                    22 October 2022 15: 44
                    Quote: donavi49
                    the level of costs exceeds the level of costs for creation and production. That is, again, in a war of attrition, this is the victory of Shahid / Crazy Bjilka.

                    Well, the ball is on our side. Geranium is with us, not with them. If they do not deploy the production of "mopeds" outside (in Poland), then inside the production can always be covered up.
              4. +1
                22 October 2022 13: 53
                Quote: donavi49
                likely access to a military GPS and a good duplicated or double-duplicated INS of European manufacturers

                They write that even a shahid flies on four civilian zhps at once (American, Russian, European and Chinese). And a Ukrainian moped can also have access to a military zhps. Suppression of the zhps throughout the country cannot be done, it will be able to correct sooner or later.
                And if you really run out of steam - how much can it cost to write an application for celestial navigation for android now? Is the standard camera of a good smartphone enough?
                1. +1
                  22 October 2022 16: 37
                  He can fly without ZHPS. For the flight itself, you need three sensors - a compass, a baroaltimeter and a 6-D accelerometer.
                  But so, of course, there will be no accuracy. Navigation can be corrected in the absence of GPS in many other ways. Cell towers, for example.
                2. +1
                  22 October 2022 17: 00
                  They can even navigate by cells with a SIM card.
                  1. -1
                    23 October 2022 11: 08
                    Quote from dunkan
                    They can even navigate by cells with a SIM card.


                    Sim. the map is easier to track and classify as a flying object.
              5. 0
                22 October 2022 22: 47
                This would mean the complicity of the United States in the attack on targets on the territory of the Russian Federation. Their own GPS.
                After that, the same CR can fly through EU LNG terminals and platforms in
                Gulf of Mexico.
        4. +5
          22 October 2022 13: 00
          Quote: Maxim G
          Why invent something

          Right. You just need to look back a little and creatively comprehend the old experience.

          "Gerani Shahid" has one HUGE drawback that must be used, and in principle, and not only against it. This is the sound made by this device, as well as by all aircraft using a propeller, and since the speed of sound propagation is much greater than the speed of this UAV, the direction finder will give time to respond and indicate the direction from which the danger is approaching. And then it’s a matter of technology, after all, for a 57-mm cannon we have shells with detonation in the air, a “cloud of fragments” is quite capable of landing not only a “cardboard” UAV
          1. +2
            22 October 2022 21: 41
            Quote: svp67
            "Gerani Shahid" has one HUGE drawback that must be used, and in principle, and not only against it. This is the sound made by this device, as well as by all aircraft using a propeller, and since the speed of sound propagation is much greater than the speed of this UAV, the direction finder will give time ...

            Why are you stuck in the last century!? Better take the sound-thermal direction finder "Penicillin"! True, he is for a counter-battery fight ... but shaman him a little and you will catch "flying mopeds", like a frog of flies in a swamp! At the same time, the neighboring men will be embarrassed to talk about their sexual "exploits" in front of you! You will know the truth better than them!
        5. 0
          22 October 2022 16: 30
          Radar is always a great target. Especially when it is combined with a launcher.
          1. 0
            28 October 2022 18: 19
            They usually combine mobile complexes.
            In general, it’s great to set up tricks and catch periwinkles on live bait :) In Belgrade, they kind of fooled with microwave ovens ...
      2. 0
        22 October 2022 15: 42
        the Americans tried it in World War 2, for self-defense of submarines and the rear hemisphere of aircraft, they refused, saying that it was, at best, a weapon of retaliation ... and this rumbler also has a propeller in the back ...
      3. 0
        22 October 2022 21: 04
        the British tried to do this in WWII, but came to the conclusion that this was a bad idea. you just need to see what worked in WWII and repeat on a new technical basis. it will be relatively inexpensive, but it needs to be dealt with urgently
      4. 0
        23 October 2022 00: 48
        Maybe try to develop a mesh projectile?

        Everything has already been invented, but not by us.
        A representative of the corporation told National Defense magazine about the successful testing of 30x133 mm dual-use high-explosive fragmentation cartridges for the M230LF Bushmaster machine gun. The ammunition is equipped with a small sensor that detects drones, then an explosion occurs, with the drone being damaged by shrapnel, rather than a direct hit by a projectile.

        The company is keeping exactly how the new round works under wraps, but according to a Northrop Grumman spokesman, the RF sensor inside each round is based on sensing technology "that has been around for decades." Currently, new cartridges have already begun to enter service with the US Army.

        In addition to being highly effective against small drones, the new munition is said to be unique in that its cost is several times lower than other systems for destroying UAVs. For automatic targeting, a special ACE program is used, but, as a representative of the developer company emphasized, the M230LF Bushmaster cartridge and machine gun can work with any guidance system.
    4. +8
      22 October 2022 06: 30
      . I propose to consider hypothetical possibility for the Armed Forces of Ukraine to get at their disposal devices similar to Shahid

      I immediately thought - why is everyone so happy that Shahed is very simple (made of shit and sticks), and very cheap?
      After all, this only suggests that the opposite side will soon build the same thing.

      Yes, of course they will. They have all the competencies. Any components - the most high-tech, Western. They made planes, and here - an aircraft model. It's a question of time.
      1. +5
        22 October 2022 13: 02
        A developed systemic state would deploy a line for the production of a million pieces a year and drown the defeated country in blows. It's a pity that Russia is disgusting with the system.
      2. +2
        22 October 2022 16: 45
        Quote: Stas157
        I immediately thought - why is everyone so happy that Shahed is very simple (made of shit and sticks), and very cheap?
        After all, this only suggests that the opposite side will soon build the same thing.

        Not necessary. If Russia has only Iran and Lukashenka as allies, then Ukraine is critically dependent on supplies from the West and, accordingly, good press. She cannot afford to put pressure on the Russian rear as freely and without thinking about the consequences.
        On the other hand, there are plenty of other high-tech low-life solutions that Ukraine and its allies can use.
        1. 0
          22 October 2022 21: 07
          Quote: Negro
          Quote: Stas157
          I immediately thought - why is everyone so happy that Shahed is very simple (made of shit and sticks), and very cheap?
          After all, this only suggests that the opposite side will soon build the same thing.

          Not necessary. If Russia has only Iran and Lukashenka as allies, then Ukraine is critically dependent on supplies from the West and, accordingly, good press. She cannot afford to put pressure on the Russian rear as freely and without thinking about the consequences.
          On the other hand, there are plenty of other high-tech low-life solutions that Ukraine and its allies can use.


          once again they will say that the Russians fired on themselves. this is such a well-established feature of Ukrainian propaganda that it will definitely be used here
          1. -1
            22 October 2022 21: 39
            If he starts to fly to boiler houses in the Volga region, the explanation may not work. In any case, the political risks are quite high.
    5. The comment was deleted.
    6. 0
      23 October 2022 02: 28
      Shahed and similar kamikaze loitering ammunition fly along a horizontal trajectory, the engine is too loud, the speed is slow, it can be easily shot down with small arms. There, the dill showed how they shot down a few. They also run at the last moment and lose the effect. The charge is not enough to hit people who fled within a radius of 15-25 meters. This can be seen on the videos that the Ministry of Defense has uploaded on the Internet.

      Shahed's strength lies in the fact that it can be used on infrastructure facilities, about power substations of the power grid. You can easily stop the power supply of all regions.
      Stop trains, destroy unfortified/small control posts, etc.

      There, no one will defend every transformer, there are not enough people and resources for this.

      I have already commented on this occasion that if you want to the forefront use such devices successfully, necessary:

      First, change the trajectory in the final section from horizontal to vertical from above.
      So speed in the final section it will be much larger and people who hear / notice the device will not have time to scatter to different sides / hide behind shelter.
      2) On the final leg of the flight, put engine idle speed, or completely muffleso that it doesn’t beat too much and so that the dill cannot scatter.

      3) think about massive application of controlled art. shells. An art projectile can carry about the same charge weight, or more. He has supersonic speed, he doesn’t hear, he doesn’t see, he doesn’t hide. He is not subject to interference. (if you use laser guidance)
      The cost and price are MUCH less. A guided art projectile has only an optical sensor, a battery, and electric drives on the rudders. There are no radio receivers, transmitters, video cameras, GPS / GLONASS modules, lithium-polymer batteries, fuel tank, fuel itself, internal combustion engine / collectorless. The only thing you need is a UAV (similar to Shahed, with the same dimensions and summer characteristics, which has the ability to highlight targets.

      And such drones already exist and are in service with the RF Armed Forces. Art systems also eat into service. The best in the world and long-range: this is the Coalition of the SV, which is also in service!

      The NE coalition will be able to launch at least 1 such guided missiles in 15 minute.
      The only thing the calculation has to do is to correctly set the laser code for each projectile after the volley.

      The rest will be done by UAV operators. Each UAV will have its own laser code, and in a given area after a salvo, all targets will be destroyed almost simultaneously, and most importantly, more successfully and cheaper.

      You can't hide from a supersonic art projectile.



      And I want to add that, of course, artillery cannot crawl far beyond the line of contact, because it simply has a maximum range of 75 km, and that's exactly where Shahed-type UAVs fill the role.

      It’s just that you don’t need to use only Lancets, Kubov and so on to the front line when there are systems like Krasnopol ...

      And of course, it is necessary to improve Krasnopol's parameters and make it more accurate. Based on experience from Syria.

      On this video that I gave, it is clearly visible that the projectile did not hit the target, (armored personnel carrier),
      When American Excalibur projectiles have a scatter away from the target with a radius of only 2 meters.

      And they have already launched a new version, Excalibur S



      And by the way, the Nazis on the outskirts are already crawling with such shells ..... from unofficial sources
    7. 0
      25 November 2022 03: 47
      "Is there confirmation of this? Or a statement from the ceiling."
      You can read Maxim G about the effectiveness of the Geran-2 UAV on the Khokhlyat telegram channels.
  2. -4
    22 October 2022 04: 54
    where first an anti-aircraft missile falls with the remnants of fuel, which, as expected, suits special effects, and then another 50-kg Shahid warhead is added.
    Well, you can't! In the event of a miss, a serviceable missile self-destructs, and in the event of a hit from 50 kg of just explosives, not as part of some less protected warhead, nothing will remain.
    1. +9
      22 October 2022 06: 45
      Then what flew into residential buildings? And there is a remedy against these ukroshahids. Completely demolish Ukrainianism as a state and an idea
      1. +1
        22 October 2022 14: 03
        Quote: dmi.pris
        Then what flew into residential buildings?

        Faulty expired missiles, obviously. It’s just that the author is estimating this for Russia, but with us, with air defense missiles, it seems to be the norm.
        Quote: dmi.pris
        Completely demolish Ukrainianism as a state and an idea
        drinks
    2. 0
      25 November 2022 03: 52
      "In the event of a miss, a serviceable missile self-destructs..." laughing
      1. -1
        25 November 2022 04: 16
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Faulty expired missiles, obviously. It’s just that the author is estimating this for Russia, but with us, with air defense missiles, it seems to be the norm.
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. -25
      22 October 2022 05: 56
      The author, do not disgrace yourself, tighten up the Russian language, otherwise it hurts the eye.
      In Ukraine...

      as a fan of the Russian language, I join the author: В Ukraine. That's when it becomes part of the Russian Federation (or the USSR) again, then it will return AT.
      And in Polish. don't give a damn.
      1. 0
        22 October 2022 07: 16
        Do you think that T.G. Shevchenko was an illiterate person? Read at your leisure ...
        1. -1
          22 October 2022 08: 05
          alexandre II
          "There is no order in Ukraine." (c) N. V. Gogol laughing laughing laughing
      2. +11
        22 October 2022 07: 43
        As a fan of Russia I will write on Ukraine, no matter what ... and we don't care about each other's opinion! What's next ? Everyone "gets rich" as he can ...
        What's the point of making comments like this?
        1. -1
          22 October 2022 08: 11
          vitvit123 of course it doesn't make sense. Just one comrade (who later erased his comment) began to reproach Roman Skomorokhov for not knowing the Russian language :)
          1. +1
            22 October 2022 08: 30
            Thanks !..
            I remember, it seems right:
            Terrible age, terrible hearts..
            Pushkin..
      3. +2
        22 October 2022 16: 32
        [quote = MBRShB] [quote] When it becomes part of the Russian Federation (or USSR) again, then it will return AT.
        And in Polish. don't care.[/quote]

        I will sow a grain of doubt.
        Siberia is part of Russia, however, it is correct to say
        live not on Siberia, and в Siberia.
        At the same time it says to live on Kuban, for example.
        Dear colleague, the Russian language is more difficult than you think. And the fact that you are a fan of the Russian language does not insure you against mistakes.

        You absolutely spit on Polish in vain, this is an old Slavic language, and even a superficial acquaintance with it enriches. It contains a lot of Old Slavic words that have not been used in Russian for a long time. So it is not without interest sometimes to listen to Polish speech.

        I am disgusted by the Russophobia of the Poles, but I can separate Copernicus and Mickiewicz from the American toadies sitting in Warsaw.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  4. +7
    22 October 2022 05: 06
    Apparently, it is necessary to build along the borders echo locators for reviewing the situation to detect an attack and an automatic acoustic guidance system for rapid-firing guns.
    Once upon a time it already was!
    1. +4
      22 October 2022 06: 41
      How submariners use sonar and direction finding. Instead of radar and visual (in the article) detection for such rattling targets, you can make an acoustic device where you can even put your friend or foe in sound. And they will rumble for a long time until they switch to electric traction, at least in the final section. But while the batteries are heavy. Noiselessness due to mufflers for rattling engines is also a weighting of the structure. Therefore, they will rumble for a long time.
      1. +1
        22 October 2022 08: 33
        Actually, such a thing already exists, and for a long time. Artillerymen use.
        Few of them.
    2. 0
      22 October 2022 07: 57
      What are you talking about? For so many years, a fence on the border has not been built ....
    3. -2
      22 October 2022 16: 50
      Quote: svan26
      automatic acoustic guidance systems for rapid-firing guns

      You do not have so many guns to create the necessary air defense density over the entire million square kilometers of a moped's reach. And even more so you do not have control systems.
  5. -6
    22 October 2022 05: 07
    And why did the author take that Geranium-2 does not have an operator? And the wrecked sau, khimars?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      22 October 2022 05: 59
      Saboteur_Navy so they were wetted with lancets. Like.
      1. +4
        22 October 2022 08: 24
        They showed a photo of the media sau torn apart, and it was written about Geranium, the Lancet apparently did not have enough explosives
        Then they wrote to the media that Geran-2 destroyed Himars not far from the Antonov bridge, although Himars managed to shoot back. Yes, and that long-range Lancet will not reach Himars, if only the saboteurs got close, although the Lancet has a declared range of 40-70 km, but I don’t understand why there is such a spread?
        Perhaps Geranium-2 can be controlled both according to the program and the operator ... No one has exact information
        1. DO
          0
          22 October 2022 18: 28
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M11oOu3MPw
          Here, on the basis of materials collected from the network, people claim that two modifications of Geranium-2 are possible:
          - with guidance to the coordinates of stationary targets, without operator control;
          - with a video camera, controlled by the operator, to destroy self-propelled guns, howitzers, etc.
    3. +1
      22 October 2022 16: 48
      Quote: Saboteur_Navy
      And the wrecked sau, khimars?

      They were?
  6. +6
    22 October 2022 05: 09
    If one monkey has a stick in his hand, and the second has only fists, then after hitting the forehead with a stick, the second will quickly realize that you also need to have a stick. They can rivet very quickly, the West will support.
  7. +13
    22 October 2022 05: 10
    prophetic article. if Ukraine does not establish production at home, then what prevents the West from its technological power? and then paint a "Kozak-136" on board and pass it off as a Ukrainian development. there you can put telecontrol via satellite, and a normal silencer, and open the areas where our air defense is located with satellite RTR intelligence and bypass. what we will shoot down is not clear in principle. including near Moscow.
  8. +4
    22 October 2022 05: 14
    Defense of Moscow in WWII. Maybe on the basis of modern acoustic counter-battery combat stations, create control systems for anti-aircraft machine guns ...
  9. 0
    22 October 2022 05: 18
    The best means of combating a Shahid-class drone is a rapid-fire machine gun with a caliber of 7,62 to 12,7 mm. The ideal is something like the American M134 Minigun or our YakB-12,7.

    It would be possible to reanimate ShKAS. A rifle bullet is enough for such a shahid moped, and ShKAS is not just lead rain, but a tropical downpour, so no one has achieved its rate of fire (at least in one barrel).
    We need new ways to detect and track such targets.
    acoustic locator. This shahid moped is so named for the characteristic sound of the motor. Acoustic locators were made back in World War II, and with the current level of technology, you can do much better. True, it is also possible to attach a muffler to the motor, even at the expense of loss of speed and payload.
    1. +6
      22 October 2022 05: 40
      The most ideal weapon against UAVs is a 57-76 caliber anti-aircraft gun firing with a remote tube with shrapnel or ready-made fragments
      1. 0
        22 October 2022 06: 48
        Parvis rasulov Well, yes, Derivation-Air Defense is called, based on the BMP. Nothing has been heard about her for a long time. At what stage of development is it.
        1. +4
          22 October 2022 07: 14
          During the Yemeni war, the Houthis, using an Iranian anti-aircraft missile and 57 mm ZP S 60 anti-aircraft guns, shot down more than a dozen UAVs from the United States and Saudi Arabia, including the American MQ9-Reaper and Chinese UAVs such as CH-4B and Wing Loong
      2. -1
        22 October 2022 07: 10
        Only not with a tube, but with programmable ammunition
        https://topwar.ru/163286-35-mm-programmiruemye-snarjady-oerlikon-contraves-ahead.html.
        .but it's not about us
        1. +2
          22 October 2022 07: 53
          Yes, the tube and shrapnel are old names, and yes, you are right now they are programmable ammunition, but on ZP C 60, a fragmentation shot with a tube there with a key can be set to detonate in the air or strike. By the way, in the war in Yugoslavia, not only air defense systems shot down NATO aircraft, UAVs and cruise missiles, but also 57 mm C60 and ZSU 57-2 anti-aircraft guns actively counteracted and shot down a number of missiles and aircraft, including an American Apache helicopter
          1. 0
            22 October 2022 08: 27
            As far as I understand, there is no radio fuse in the C60 ammunition either.
      3. 0
        22 October 2022 16: 56
        Quote: Parvis Rasulov
        the ideal weapon against UAVs is a 57-76 caliber anti-aircraft gun firing with a remote tube with shrapnel or ready-made fragments

        Nonsense. For these purposes, modules with a 30-35mm cannon or a 40mm automatic grenade launcher are now installed. And this and that with a remote programmable detonation. Often, in addition, missiles from MANPADS are screwed on, with homing or a laser path - then such a module will bring down the missile launcher.

        The problem is not to imagine. The problem is to make really a lot of these things.
    2. +2
      22 October 2022 06: 50
      "Shilka" - everything is new, well-forgotten old. I think if you add a little to Shaitan-Abu, there will be an excellent counterbalance to martyrs.
  10. +14
    22 October 2022 05: 24
    The best air defense is tanks at the enemy airfield. The best defense against Ukrainian periwinkles is Russian flags on the Independence Square. Maybe with big losses, but if it presses, then you have to.
    I think that it was for this option that our troops went to Belarus.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. -1
      22 October 2022 11: 28
      Quote: malyvalv
      The best air defense is tanks at the enemy airfield.

      You are right, AOI agrees with you.
      Satellite footage showed the extent of damage from an attack by 6 Israeli drones on a drone warehouse in the province of Kermanshah in Iran, more than 100 drones were destroyed.

      In Syria, both the factory where drones were assembled using Iranian technology and the warehouse of finished products were destroyed.

    3. 0
      27 October 2022 02: 59
      Pressed. It's time to run to the military. Got in line already?
      1. 0
        27 October 2022 09: 37
        Did you provide electricity? And immediately to VO?
        Let's write until it's turned off.
  11. +5
    22 October 2022 05: 29
    They seem to have learned how to fight shahids. They use 23mm cannons and other anti-aircraft guns, set up distant posts to warn anti-aircraft crews so that they get ready - the sound of a shahad-moped is heard far away. Piston aircraft use is also a well-known idea. By the way, during the Korean War, the PO-2 kept the Americans awake by dropping small bombs and grenades on them. After the jet fighter crashed on the side of the mountain, and there were solid hills, in the United States, in a couple of months, they developed and put into production a night fighter with a piston engine. But there is a problem here. By the end of the year, Ukroboronprom promises to develop a kamikaze drone with a long-range silent electric motor and with a more powerful charge than the Shahed. So we have to prepare ourselves to fight them.
    1. +5
      22 October 2022 06: 58
      Quote: smart fellow
      develop a kamikaze drone with silent electric motor long range

      With an electric motor, you will not get a long range. Energy efficiency of batteries, their specific capacity per unit. weight, while inferior to aviation fuel.
      1. 0
        22 October 2022 08: 52
        Let's see. For example, Switchblade 600
        It is designed to fly 40 km in 20 minutes, then can barrage in the air for another 20 minutes (which gives it a total range of 80 km)
        https://is.gd/X6hUJy
        An electric motor with a pusher propeller is installed in the tail of the apparatus.
        https://topwar.ru/175910-barrazhirujuschij-boepripas-switchblade-600-ssha.html
        For 23 kg of weight 80 km.
        With more weight, you can achieve a greater range, for example,
        The prototype air taxi V1500M was presented at the Zhuhai air show by the Chinese company Autoflight, Esoreiter.ru reported.
        The flight range of this device is 250 km, 3-4 passengers can be on board. The air taxi is powered by electricity, has a vertical takeoff and landing,

        https://bigasia.ru/content/news/science_and_education/v-kitae-sozdali-model-vozdushnogo-taksi/
        This air taxi is also a quadrocopter type.
        1. +2
          22 October 2022 09: 15
          Quote: smart fellow
          which gives him a general range of flight 80 km

          Quote: smart fellow
          Range of flight of this apparatus is 250 km

          Now compare this with flight range Gerani at 2000 km.
          1. 0
            22 October 2022 10: 37
            This air taxi is also a quadrocopter type.
            An airplane consumes less energy than a helicopter (quadcopter) and will fly several times more distance with the same energy consumption.
            The declared range of the Ukrainian drone is 1000 km and 75 kg charge.
          2. +1
            22 October 2022 16: 53
            Well, 2000 may be stated there, but in reality they are used at distances of two to three hundred kilometers.
            Perhaps more fuel does not fit, or somehow an increase in the fuel supply is done by reducing the warhead. Or maybe the motor does not pull out more long-term work.
    2. +4
      22 October 2022 08: 36
      Well, Gerani will be transferred to night mode. Try to hit the sound of the engine at night.
      1. 0
        22 October 2022 08: 55
        And so they run at night.
        Drones "Geran-2" dived at enemy targets in Nikolaev and Zaporozhye during the night
        https://topwar.ru/202969-drony-geran-2-v-techenie-nochi-pikirovali-na-obekty-protivnika-v-nikolaeve-i-zaporozhe.html
      2. +2
        22 October 2022 09: 41
        Well, the night is not a problem at all.


        The problem is that these MZA in a modernized form with a thermal imager are sufficient (if even the most critical ones are covered - substations, thermal power plants, etc.) - only the United States has South Korea, but the latter will not give them, because in active use.

        Conditional Germany, for example, can allocate 2-3 well 5 batteries of its land-based Millennium (as part of an advertisement for a system that Rheinmetall is trying to promote in every possible way, carries it to all exhibitions, etc.) and equip it with Turkish-made programmable projectiles (so that the neutrality of Switzerland is not under question). But what's the point of 2-3-5 batteries? These are 2-3-5 infrastructure facilities.
        1. 0
          22 October 2022 09: 49
          Well, the night is not a problem at all.

          It's possible, but expensive.
    3. -1
      22 October 2022 13: 15
      I also think that the U-2 can be used as a hunter for such UAVs. Its speed is 180 km / h, it can hang in the air for a long time, and pilot training does not take much time. Forward four machine guns and behind a spark of two DPA. The crew is two people, you can stick the radar to the second.
    4. +1
      22 October 2022 16: 59
      Quote: smart fellow
      By the way, during the Korean War, the PO-2 kept the Americans awake by dropping small bombs and grenades on them.

      You are confusing stories from the Korean War and stories from the Second World War. Only Chinese kamikazes could fly in Korea on the Po-2.
  12. +2
    22 October 2022 05: 38
    But what can I say, anything can happen in a war! In the meantime, make geranium2 as much as possible, until we produce something more effective ourselves!
    1. +8
      22 October 2022 07: 13
      Quote: ZIF122
      What can I say, anything can happen in a war! In the meantime, make geraniums2 as much as possible

      Yes. We need to make the most of the moment. Until he introduced himself. Because in war everything changes quickly. And to trump with the fact that we, they say, have not yet begun to fight, is generally inappropriate.
  13. +8
    22 October 2022 05: 40
    And the conclusion is that it is necessary to force the NWO, and not only because of the possible appearance of "periwinkies". Time does not work for us at all. You need to move to Kyiv, putting aside everything else for now. Mobilize the security forces, as Kadyrov suggested. North Korean battalions, after all. Why be ashamed?
    Quote: Buffoons
    Well, why not start designing and building drones yourself? In the country, as it were, the situation is not quite suitable for such undertakings.

    But why design? Geranium and all things will be copied. Even to simplify, I think, it will work out: to reduce the mass of the warhead, and to install the engine in general as a model. There is a wide scope for creativity, it is strange that the Armed Forces of Ukraine were not puzzled by this before.
  14. -3
    22 October 2022 05: 54
    Moreover, its low cost and absolutely no manufacturability, which allows you to assemble such devices in any more or less suitable size premises, is also a plus! You can collect thousands of such devices and arrange punitive raids anywhere.

    Let's not talk about simplicity.
    First, just like that, six and a half thousand dollars are not lying on the road.
    Secondly, not everyone taken from the street will be able to assemble and launch such a device.
    Thirdly, 50 kg of explosives will not be sold at Pyaterochka or Leroy Merlin.
    As practice shows, the temptation can be so great that the voice of reason (which is already neglected in Ukraine) will not be heard. And then we need to be prepared for the fact that "Shahids" will also fly to us, who will be called "Periwinkles".

    And what is left for us to do? Go out into the street with posters: "No to war!"
    Practice continues to show that rabies cannot be cured, and a rabid dog cannot be lured by petting, as Professor Preobrazhensky advised.
    In addition, the destruction of terrorists should take place without their PR, guaranteed and without a trace.
    Any “exploder” amuses himself with the hope that they will talk about him and remember him ... And even traces of him should not remain on this planet.
    You should always remember the need for drastic measures.
    stop The Periwinkle is unlikely to fly out of a cave or a dugout... Deprivation of the benefits of civilization has a beneficial effect on the transformation of cruelty into obedience in women, dogs and ... Nazi scum.
    1. +1
      22 October 2022 07: 10
      Quote: yuriy55
      Let's not talk about simplicity.
      First, just like that, six and a half thousand dollars are not lying on the road.
      Secondly, not everyone taken from the street will be able to assemble and launch such a device.
      Thirdly, 50 kg of explosives will not be sold at Pyaterochka or Leroy Merlin.

      They told us here about the "Alder" and "Neptune", which are noted in the reports and about the destroyed, and even freeze and starve.
    2. +4
      22 October 2022 07: 21
      Quote: yuriy55
      Let's not talk about simplicity.
      First, just six and a half thousand dollars are not lying on the road

      And what is 6,5 thousand dollars for weapons? Nothing. The price of one krasnople is five times more.
      1. +2
        22 October 2022 17: 02
        Quote: Stas157
        And what is 6,5 thousand dollars for weapons?

        One, maximum two 155mm shots. Ordinary, not controlled.
  15. The comment was deleted.
    1. -9
      22 October 2022 07: 12
      Tagan This srach about "in" and "on" is already 30 years old. Ukraine is a separate state, continental (not an island), so "B" is according to the rules of Russian. In general, it is stupid to argue on this, wasting time and nerves. Therefore, I suggest not to quibble. As the author of the text wrote, so it is correct (this and that is allowed)))
      1. +1
        22 October 2022 13: 16
        Quote: MBRBS
        This srach about "in" and "on" is already 30 years old.

        It is enough to look into the Russian language textbook to find out what to say correctly "in Ukraine".
        And in Ukraine, let them say what they want, that's their business.
        1. -2
          22 October 2022 17: 00
          Textbooks are different, some say so, others that way. Any textbook reflects the opinion of its author, and nothing more. If you have your own brains, use them.
          1. 0
            23 October 2022 12: 47
            Quote: rzzz
            Textbooks are different, in some it is written this way, in others that way.
            I finished school in the USSR, then everything was interpreted and written unambiguously, without any muddy options.
            Quote: rzzz
            If you have your brains, use them.
            That is, should I interpret the spelling depending on my worldview?
            Did you understand what you said?
            1. 0
              23 October 2022 19: 32
              Quote: Bad_gr
              That is, the spelling I must

              Should not. These are the rules, they are not interpreted, but are executed as written. It says "names of countries through the preposition" in "", so do it.
              1. 0
                23 October 2022 22: 20
                Quote: rzzz
                These are the rules, they are not interpreted, but are executed as written. It says "names of countries through the preposition" in "", so do it.
                There is a country called Cuba. In my time, they were taught to say correctly "the delegation went TO CUBA". And how is it correct in your reality? To Cuba?
                1. 0
                  24 October 2022 21: 17
                  Cuba is also an island. Those. the rules apply to it as to the island and other geographical objects. And the country located on this island is called "Republic of Cuba", and now try to read it with the preposition "on". That's right, garbage turns out.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
  16. 0
    22 October 2022 06: 27
    Another very important aspect. The use of such drones, in addition to the armies of the whole world, is also being considered by terrorists. Cheap and efficient. Anywhere in the world, you can bring, without arousing suspicion, all the components. Assembled, launched for a hundred kilometers and there is no gas terminal (storage, warehouse, Capitol). In general, the war is moving.
    1. 0
      23 October 2022 19: 37
      Moreover, they are already being used with might and main.
      In addition, at short distances, a couple of tens of kilometers, you can even do without GPS, therefore, all jamming methods do not make sense. Accuracy, of course, will be extremely fig, but if the target is large, then it is quite acceptable, especially with a mass attack.
  17. +5
    22 October 2022 06: 31
    Its effectiveness, in addition to the price, is due to the fact that all modern air defense is geared towards fighting completely different targets. So for some time they really will remain a miracle weapon.
    1. -1
      22 October 2022 17: 05
      Quote: U. Cheny
      So for some time they really will remain a miracle weapon.

      They are not miracle weapons and never have been. Anti-drone defense has been one of the main tasks of first-class armies for 20 years already. Ukrainian air defense from the Soviet legacy is really not ready for this - now we have to fix it, as always, in fire mode.
      1. 0
        22 October 2022 19: 05
        Good afternoon!
        Yes, I forgot to say that after the attack on the oil enterprises of the Aramco company in Saudi Arabia from the territory of Yemen, Germany generally stopped selling 550E engines for export.
        ..I remember how a few years ago, when the Houthis attacked the Saudi oil fields, how the local giants of thought mock the naive Saudis, the stupid Americans who put useless "patriots" in the KSA, even the barefoot Houthis who made drones from improvised means ..)) ) Even the GDP came forward, they say we can offer you our C400))) And now everyone is concerned about how to deal with shahid mopeds ourselves .. (((((
        1. +2
          22 October 2022 19: 14
          Quote: Nekarmadlen
          Americans who put useless "patriots" in the KSA,

          The Patriots really aren't the solution to this type of threat, like the shahid moped.
      2. 0
        22 October 2022 20: 21
        Anti-drone protection is effective against controlled drones. Because it is almost all focused on the interception of control. And here is a terribly primitive, uncontrollable drone, he doesn’t care about this protection.
        1. +1
          22 October 2022 21: 38
          Quote: U. Cheny
          Because it is almost entirely focused on the interception of control

          Not all at all. A bunch of artillery and rocket options. At the forefront are lasers.
          1. 0
            23 October 2022 07: 57
            Nobody disputes that they are. Only the Saudis, buying up all the advanced weapons, could not even trace them. It is precisely because I said that the defense is sharpened for other purposes. The same missile and gun mounts are controlled by radar, which may simply not see Shahid. Just like some Stinger cannot capture it, simply because the thermal radiation is small.
            Well, lasers, of course, yes. Only they need a mini nuclear power plant. This is against a piece of plastic with a motor.
            And once again, today, all means of counteracting such primitive drones lose a lot in price / efficiency. That is why they can be called miracle weapons.
            1. -1
              23 October 2022 09: 02
              Quote: U. Cheny
              Only the Saudis, buying up all the advanced weapons, could not even trace them.

              The Saudis have a long and unequivocal reputation militarily. The first-class armies in the region are the US and Israel.
              Quote: U. Cheny
              rocket-gun installations are controlled by radar, which may simply not see Shahid.

              And optics with a night channel.
              Quote: U. Cheny
              simply because the thermal radiation is small.

              The Americans think that should be enough.
              Quote: U. Cheny
              Only they need a mini nuclear power plant.

              Are you delirious? There, the power is only hundreds of kilowatts, an ordinary civilian generator on a truck.
              Quote: U. Cheny
              all means of countering such primitive drones lose a lot in price / efficiency. That is why they can be called miracle weapons.

              A sword is usually cheaper than armor. These are the realities of any war.
        2. 0
          23 October 2022 19: 50
          About "interception of control" is also such a widespread fairy tale. I admit that it is possible to intercept some civilian drones with known protocols, maybe even like the Mavic, for sure DJI revealed the control protocol to "who needs it."
          But military drones controlled over an encrypted channel, and from a satellite - well, I will never believe it. That doesn't happen. There are two things you can do: 1. Jam the GPS so they get disoriented. But a normal drone should switch to backup sensors and continue flying, albeit with less accuracy. Or return to base if it is a reusable drone.
          and 2. You can mute the communication channels, forward and reverse. But in many cases, again, this does not hurt much. Yes, and not always there, these channels, and you still need to catch them
          1. 0
            23 October 2022 22: 08
            Speaking about the interception of control, I had in mind a broader concept than direct control of someone else's drone. I meant any way to stop the control of the drone by its operator.
            And jamming channels is usually very useful, unless it's a kamikaze, since it almost always turns on the return to base mode.
  18. -3
    22 October 2022 06: 34
    In this article, I propose to consider hypothetical possibility

    And let's "in contrast" consider the situation when the Russian "hypothetical" air defense, based "on other physical principles," will work against "hypothetical" Ukrodrons.
    Overall
    If
    yes, if only
    then the mushrooms would grow
  19. 0
    22 October 2022 06: 35
    Is it interesting to understand in Europe that all this can fly to them?
    And after what number of defeats of the LNG terminal will the blockade of Ukraine for such types of weapons begin?
    1. -2
      22 October 2022 17: 08
      Quote: bootlegger
      Is it interesting to understand in Europe that all this can fly to them?

      You are right, but in a slightly different manner. Allies of Ukraine have a lot of opportunities to increase the strength of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Shahid mopeds don't look like the best solution.
  20. +2
    22 October 2022 06: 43
    Bearded "barmaley" in Syria are carefully watching materials about the combat use of plastic flying bombs. Such things can be made in the garage. Then the tragedy with shopping malls in America on September 11, 2001 will seem like child's play.
    1. +2
      22 October 2022 07: 17
      Evgenijus so, in Syria, garage "aircraft models" have long been used. They fly, however, not far.
      1. 0
        22 October 2022 07: 25
        Modern electronics has become available even to children. 3D printers at home are suitable for making any aerodynamic shape. Every phone has GPS receivers. What else remains a problem for a "tough" terrorist? Yes, explosives! But everyone studied chemistry at school ...
        Nazism in Ukraine pushed the world into chaos.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. 0
          23 October 2022 19: 56
          No 3D printer needed. Long, expensive, hard, and not very durable.

          A roll of fiberglass and a bucket of polyester resin. Plaster mold on a wooden model - and any aerodynamic surface is ready.
    2. 0
      22 October 2022 17: 09
      Many barmaley in Syria and other places on the Iranian salary. They see nothing new for themselves.
  21. 0
    22 October 2022 06: 56
    With the indication of technical data, the author is not all right. Well, "Geran-2" does not fly at a speed of 700 km / h
    engine power is not enough for this. Cruising speed in the region of 200 km / h. As for the data of the Rotax-912 engine, there is no need to indicate the "dry weight" of the engine, it is about nothing at all. An engine that says "dry weight" is generally just "a bunch of metal". There is such a thing as "curb weight of the engine." If my memory serves me right, then the "curb weight" of the Rotax-912 is in the region of 76 kg. As for the methods of dealing with such aircraft, why is nothing said about the use of the same Mi-24, Mi-28 and Ka-52. On the pylons, it is enough to install six-barrels of the GSHG-7,62 type. The devil is not as scary as he is painted. There is no ideal weapon in the World, there are methods of struggle with all means of attack, up to tethered balloons with nets, for example.
    1. 0
      22 October 2022 07: 20
      2112vda You messed something up. 700 km / h - this is the author wrote about the planes.
  22. +4
    22 October 2022 07: 01
    Why such difficulties with buying in Iran?
    They will buy separate internal combustion engines in China, separately electronics and avionics, they will blind the rest themselves, they will probably find sticks and cardboard. Explosives are picked out from shells, sea mines, or some other illiquid asset.
    1. 0
      22 October 2022 15: 27
      Quote: VicktorVR
      the rest they blind themselves, sticks and cardboard will probably be found.

      A graduate of a modern Russian school (even a winner of a chemistry olympiad) does not surpass an Afghan citizen in his ability to use a screwdriver.
    2. -1
      22 October 2022 17: 14
      Quote: VicktorVR
      Why such difficulties with buying in Iran?

      In the States and Europe, ultralight aircraft for self-assembly are massively sold, within $ 100K for the entire set (airframe, engine, avionics). And then it's a matter of invention.
  23. 0
    22 October 2022 07: 02
    Firstly, the author is wrong, CHP is more important. Therefore, you need to shoot down.
    Secondly, object air defense is returning in the form of barrage balloons.
    Thirdly, the renaissance of twin or quadruple 23, 37 / 40, 57 mm guns begins. Only they need to be equipped with a target detection / tracking radar and programmable ammunition.
  24. +3
    22 October 2022 07: 18
    Man, how many times has it been said that the "silver bullet" concept doesn't work! The funny thing is, the Americans themselves said this about the Germans, that they were defeated by a "long conveyor" - while they are releasing 1 tiger, which is better, 10 T-34s leave the assembly line, which are worse, but ten of them will fail the tiger without a chance.
    Again, the whole world is off the chain. Well, the Pentagon sawmill - there is nowhere to put a sample there. But where did ours rush to? "Swarm of drones", "drones of the 6th generation". What the fuck, a swarm, from the Middle Ages - "God is on the side of BIG battalions." So your stupid moped is doing your "swarm of drones" that never took off
    1. +1
      22 October 2022 07: 28
      Today, large battalions live in the sky, but not in the clouds. there is god..
      whose sky, he dances the girl ..
      Shahid on a moped is actually a swan song unfortunately.
  25. +5
    22 October 2022 07: 23
    But what to discuss, the ideas of the article are largely correct. The question is different, how to defeat the ossification of gsh and mo? How to make it promptly respond to challenges in modern warfare? And even if they realize the danger of such means, how many years (!) will it take them to develop countermeasures?!
  26. +8
    22 October 2022 07: 30
    What are you croaking, Roman? There has already been a rumor on the Internet that Taiwan is sending 800 (!) quadrocopter-bombers "Revolver 860" (or rather, an octocopter ..) to Ukraine ... In the basic version, it is loaded with 8 60-mm mines ; but they can equip both 82-mm mines and 120-mm mines ... In principle, "customers" can do this too!
  27. +7
    22 October 2022 07: 31
    Quote: MBRBS
    The author, do not disgrace yourself, tighten up the Russian language, otherwise it hurts the eye.
    In Ukraine...

    as a fan of the Russian language, I join the author: В Ukraine. That's when it becomes part of the Russian Federation (or the USSR) again, then it will return AT.
    And in Polish. don't give a damn.

    Absolutely not. "In Ukraine" the established norm of the Russian language and there is no point in changing something.
  28. +1
    22 October 2022 08: 08
    Extinguish the light of all Ukraine!! Then we won't have a headache! The plant will not work without electricity. And the war must be quickly ended on the border of Poland!
    1. -4
      22 October 2022 17: 08
      Who are we going to fight against? Without won, we can't.
      I heard about Georgia say.
  29. +1
    22 October 2022 08: 12
    Not that Shahed can fly on a plane...


    But he can suddenly block the airfield, for up to several hours or even more than a day - just a few pieces of UAVs flying over the take-off and on the glide path. Such even large warheads are not needed and the released weight will go under fuel and equipment. Then there will be no landing or taking off. In the meantime, the immobilized aircraft will be destroyed by other means, especially if it is possible to use photographs sent by SSTV radio from such UAVs.
  30. The comment was deleted.
  31. +1
    22 October 2022 08: 28
    Didn't similar drones shoot down over our airfield in Syria? There, too, there seemed to be problems, but ours adapted.
  32. +1
    22 October 2022 08: 32
    We need new ways to detect and track such targets. We need new methods of interception.

    The engineers who could develop, design and make it are already retired. Let's see how effective managers solve this problem.
    1. +2
      22 October 2022 08: 44
      Yes, it's been there for a long time. Everything new = well-forgotten old. Since the radar does not see him, use sound pickup equipment. There are operating samples, they are simply used in artillery, and not in air defense.
  33. +1
    22 October 2022 08: 41
    Somewhere in the warehouses are quadruple maxims from the time of the Great Patriotic War. And the initial search by sound.
  34. +1
    22 October 2022 09: 00
    everyone was told several times from both sides
    we: what we don't buy from Iranians
    Iranians: what they don't sell to Russia
  35. 0
    22 October 2022 09: 23
    It is necessary to allocate a security zone with which these Ukrainian devices will fly and the vacuum projectile will make the drones fall in the safe zone, provided that the drones can be tracked
  36. +5
    22 October 2022 09: 25
    What would I do in the place of the Ukrainians?


    They have been developing the mysterious Shahid 75 kg per 1000 km since the summer, before the Martyrs. Initially, with volunteer money (Chmut and others), but now the state has joined in and is pouring in budget funds. Given access to any engines and electronics, it will probably be in the NG-spring area.
    1. 0
      22 October 2022 10: 40
      With such performance characteristics, the size will grow. And visibility. Can you make it invisible? Is not a fact
      1. 0
        22 October 2022 17: 13
        Only the motor will grow out of the noticeable. The rest - well, the same plastic. Moreover, the plastics there will be more suitable for these purposes than those of the Iranians. So it will be more noticeable, but not much.
        Plus, we must not forget about the HARM missiles. You don’t particularly emit radars to the right and left.
  37. -1
    22 October 2022 09: 37
    this one is clear.
    But there are a few things

    NATO countries already recognize Russia as a country of terror, while ours at the UN is making statements to no purpose.
    and suddenly there is this - "The ideal weapon of terror, the Shahed UAV." we apply. How do you like it, I. Musk?

    And second. It has long been boasted that radars see a flying goose .... and here is 17 kg of rattling metal ...
    it turns out, just the right radar mode. in the age of smart electronics, can't pick it up?
    1. +7
      22 October 2022 09: 46
      The point of these drones is that the larger the country, the more vulnerable it is. You can't put a shell on every heat station in Yaroslavl, because they will run out even near Ryazan and Tambov. Dragging drones between the air defense strongholds at distances and the population of even the European part of Russia is a very real task. That is, literally every object will have to be covered to a depth of 800-1000 km from the ribbon. There are stupidly no so many equipment, even Soviet ones, from storage, as well as people.
  38. -1
    22 October 2022 10: 08
    The pilot is trying to visually and with the help of radar to find in the sky and attack the "bird", and she just flies into the plane.

    This is extremely unlikely. It is not entirely clear to me what happened to the crashed ukrofighters. Perhaps they just crashed into ground objects, trying to get into the tail of the low-flying Shaheds.
  39. 0
    22 October 2022 10: 17
    There is no problem for laser weapons to shoot down such UAVs, but there are no such weapons yet. The possibilities of Peresvet are not known to us. Yes, and protection from the laser is very simple, slightly change the flight altitude and use it only on cloudy days, hide Shahid behind clouds. I don't think the Iranians will sell Shaheeds to Ukraine, even through intermediaries, not the kind of people there.
  40. +4
    22 October 2022 10: 30
    As long as it buzzes strongly, it is easy to detect it by sound on a certain line where acoustic stations will stand. In general, you can do this for a penny, a microphone from aliexpress, and an acoustic horn / bell. There were plenty of them in the Great Patriotic War. Link them only by linking them into a single chain. Of course, you can shoot at them, but only in the field. It is easier to create interceptor drones that will pursue them at high speed, aim at optics / sound and ram.
    Another question will arise when a high-tech, efficient lightweight silencer is put on them. Which does not need to serve for years, like on a moped, it is enough to work for a few hours, and then it may burn out.
    So everything is possible, it would be the desire and ability of our leaders of the defense industry. Current here they have long been busy with another, the division of budget money.
    1. +1
      22 October 2022 10: 46
      Such were almost a hundred years ago, they worked effectively. Planes ttgda also hooted strongly.
    2. +1
      22 October 2022 11: 40
      The only problem is that sound methods work, suddenly, only in silence. And it will fly very imperceptibly over the highway, or over the railway train. Yes, and low above the river, too, the audibility is less or just strange. Reconfiguring the motor to the center of the body, with a long shaft towards the propeller, will make the sound go up, plus the muffler will dampen it.
      In general, as in 1914, the development of weapons changes the war very much. Before the advent of machine guns, it was possible to attack in battalions. But no one reached the machine gun, and there was a positional dead end of the First World War. Which was broken through by tanks and tunnels, by the way, they write a multiple less about the latter.
      PS I came across a private opinion that the "covid restrictions" cost the Russian Federation a loss comparable to a dozen 20kt nuclear bombs. So a possible answer would be 150 kt for an elite village near Kyiv.
      1. +1
        22 October 2022 14: 57
        It is not necessary to place acoustic stations near motorways or railway tracks. In the latter case, the kamikaze drone (probably a Georgian, like Saakakashvili) still needs to synchronize with the passing train. It turns out a direct synchrophasotron, take the Crimean bridge ...
        By the way, at such stations the sound is captured directional.
        To improve the sound perception of the world, a person simply needs to put his hands to his ears, creating a certain locator, and you will be surprised at the result ... he will shock you ...
  41. 0
    22 October 2022 10: 39
    PantsirS, analogues. We have protection.
  42. +1
    22 October 2022 10: 39
    As far as I remember, in Syria, ours successfully fought against drones made of shit and sticks, in the literal sense, wood, fabric, etc., etc. The question just stands in the saturation of air defense and means of detection. As I understand it, our radars catch flying trash.
  43. +2
    22 October 2022 10: 43
    And what? Do you have to wait until they kick you in the ass? Isn't it possible to screw up all these centers, stuff-druks in Ukraine earlier? What, ran out of geraniums or explosives damp?
  44. 0
    22 October 2022 11: 07
    It will probably be necessary to form an enhanced radar field and a large number of mobile barreled ZSU along the border with the 404th. Ideally supplemented with short-range anti-aircraft missiles. It will be an expensive pleasure with not 100% efficiency that is clear in advance. Iran, I think, will definitely not sell a large batch, through intermediaries, or it may refuse altogether. But the West can simply help start production somewhere in eastern Poland. Delivery will be measured in hours, not even days.
  45. +1
    22 October 2022 11: 21
    It is possible to protect specific objects, but expensive ...... But the 404s will hit civilian objects and microdistricts .......
    1. 0
      22 October 2022 14: 59
      Which is already being done. Soon we will be left without pasta. The same ones. Shchebekinskikh.
  46. +1
    22 October 2022 11: 26
    The detection problem is solved.
    Counter-battery radars seem to be sharpened just for such heights and dimensions of targets.
    They can also calculate the direction of movement.
    It is clear that the drone can change it, but if you combine these radars into a network, then it is quite possible to calculate the route.
    As for counteraction, there can be two solutions that complement each other.
    1. Target interception on the outskirts of the calculated destination using helicopters.
    2. Distortion of GLONASS-GPS signals near potential targets is possible only at the time of the attack. To fly into a bump stop of some kind, like an abandoned building.
  47. 0
    22 October 2022 11: 49
    build on the border or near the balloons with fake jeepies so that they hang at an altitude of 2500 meters. To show false coordinates. If there is no barometer on the board on the drone, then you can bet that it allegedly flies at the limit of 7 km. According to the program, the drone will go down to adjust the height, which means it will meet the surface. If there is a means of measuring height, then as an option on the same balloons, jeepies jammers, but already within the boundaries of promo objects and cities along the perimeter. Although, of course, this will cause a complete ahtung with auto traffic, but it’s better to drive alive using maps and a compass than not
  48. 0
    22 October 2022 12: 34
    Nothing changes under the moon, as old as the world. Again, rheostats with nets on cables
    1. 0
      22 October 2022 15: 03
      A big plane at high speed is a little different than a tiny drone.
      The ropes are not enough. Only if you put a wall of carbon hummocks around each object ...
    2. 0
      22 October 2022 15: 21
      Quote: APASUS
      Nothing changes under the moon, as old as the world. Again, rheostats with nets on cables

      The first wave will bring down balloons.
  49. +1
    22 October 2022 12: 42
    >but a copy of a Chinese copy, according to many experts, cannot cost more than 5-6 thousand dollars.
    Yes, you fall, is it like a car? Bucks 300-400.
    1. 0
      23 October 2022 12: 38
      Are you delusional? The cost of only one building will go to a thousand, and also a control system, fuel and a bomb of 50-70 kg of explosives. What 300 dollars?
      1. 0
        23 October 2022 13: 44
        It's about engines. They cannot cost 5-6 thousand dollars.
        1. 0
          24 October 2022 02: 09
          Easily, he even went up in retail price for popularity by a couple of bucks:
          https://aliexpress.ru/item/4001266683745.html?sku_id=10000015528605770
          1. 0
            24 October 2022 03: 15
            Do the military buy them on Alik, at the market price? And then I can suggest market alternatives ten times cheaper (also with all the cheats).
            1. 0
              24 October 2022 12: 17
              What is the problem, show the unit with the same kW/kg ratio
            2. 0
              24 October 2022 12: 19
              I think the military has already placed its own production in the country, and you know who can easily buy these devices. Well, if everything is bought with the people's money up to thermal imagers and quadrocopters. And if necessary, they will buy weapons.
              1. 0
                24 October 2022 18: 08
                Let's hope for the unification of digital components and mass production.
                Just wondering what would happen if we had a million of these geraniums in February (the figure is quite lifting).
                1. 0
                  25 October 2022 16: 13
                  In February, of course, they would have crushed them in mass, but then Ukraine still had a CENTRALIZED AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM. The exchange of S-300 and BUK-M1 anti-aircraft missiles for geraniums is certainly cool, but geraniums seem to specialize in static targets and use them as terror in response to terror.
                  Che to stir up the past, now the question is more important than we ourselves can massively answer such Swarms of cheap UAVs.
  50. +3
    22 October 2022 13: 15
    Ukrainian analogues of Shahids - Geraniums will definitely appear soon. No matter how the same Iran sold them in exchange for banknotes and easing sanctions.
    There is only one solution - victory must be achieved on the battlefield. And the sooner the better. After that, peace must be concluded.
    What this world will be like will be decided again according to the results on the battlefield.

    Russian society somehow very easily agreed to consider the daily shelling of the Belgorod and Kursk regions an unfortunate cost. Without TG channels, we would not have known about them.
    It is very reminiscent of the attitude of Ukrainians to the battles in the Donbass until February 24. And it will end the same way. One day, either a martyr or fragments of an air defense missile will fly into your house.
  51. +1
    22 October 2022 13: 25
    Hang barrage balloons, with nets made of chains. And inside is an anti-drone device. There is no operator, they won’t cheat wassat
  52. SNA
    +1
    22 October 2022 14: 30
    When did the Beetle (Volkswagen) have a two-stroke?
  53. SNA
    0
    22 October 2022 14: 41
    Quote: NG inform
    Yes, you fall, is it like a car? Bucks 300-400.

    Aha limbah550 on Ali 1465000 rubles
  54. +1
    22 October 2022 15: 18
    "The generals are preparing for the last war."
    The cart is full of enthusiastic people, confident that the Ministry of Defense has already taken care of everything, is aware and is taking measures. The armor is strong and our tanks are fast. Yeah. It was as if Balakleya and all that “regrouping” had never happened.
    If you invented a sword, then invent a shield.
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  56. +2
    22 October 2022 15: 58
    How to find them? Remember the experience of World War 2. Because according to the performance characteristics, this is the level of World War 2 aircraft. Observation and sound posts that report immediately. Destroy with any automatic anti-aircraft guns. It all depends on the quantity. With the massive use of posts and anti-aircraft guns
    "Shilka" is waiting for her 2nd birth -_-
  57. 0
    22 October 2022 16: 04
    To fight them you need a drone fighter or a kamikaze fighter. The only question is how to transmit a video data stream over a long distance. Regular cellular communication may be use?
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  59. 0
    22 October 2022 17: 25
    I am Israeli, we have a problem with the gas sector, this problem is solved with the help of an iron dome, or a preemptive strike on the positions and command of terrorists.
    In the next year, a laser system will be put into operation, in combination with an iron dome, it is unlikely that anything will fly in, but it is also impossible to discount the possibility that some kind of missile will escape. In the north, we have the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps to another Hezbollah who have both missiles and drones, only one thing stops them, the knowledge of what will happen after using this against us. As for the conflict between Ukraine and Russia, this is not our concern at all, and not our war. Our government is doing the right thing, which is not gives them nothing.
    1. 0
      27 October 2022 03: 10
      And the fact that the Russian Federation with Iran, Hezbollah and others, friends, doesn’t bother you?
  60. +1
    22 October 2022 18: 17
    Shooting down is not a problem at all... the main thing is to detect... You can shoot down with directed electromagnetic radiation because the engine is carburetor... well, in the sense of a spark plug...
  61. -1
    22 October 2022 19: 05
    Well, if we take into account the mass evacuation of Kherson and the construction of anti-tank structures in the Belgorod region, then the matter will not be limited to drones.
  62. +1
    22 October 2022 19: 06
    Quote from Gromit
    As if it were not the same Iran that sold them to them in exchange for banknotes and easing of sanctions.

    Not really. You are confusing Iran with corrupt pigs. The state is very principled. They have their own scores to settle with the states. And old ones. And Ukraine. Ukraine is perceived as a puppet, the one behind the puddle.
    This matter has taken a serious turn. - The Government of the Islamic Republic of Iran, in an effort to protect its national interests and protect the rights of the noble Iranian people, reserves the right to respond to any irresponsible actions

    - Kanaani threatened. Article on the next thread.
    1. 0
      24 October 2022 00: 11
      The state is very principled. They have their own scores to settle with the states. And old ones.


      Yeah, we remember Iran-Contra, very principled......
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  64. 0
    22 October 2022 19: 29
    Well, there are, after all, combat training aircraft. There, an hour of flight costs, perhaps, an order of magnitude cheaper than that of a fighter-bomber.
    Good practice for cadets.
    Light helicopters, after all.
    But we need a System. Which collects all the data and sends the appropriate forces to intercept. In the end, an anti-aircraft complex on wheels can drive up - the speeds are comparable.
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  66. 0
    22 October 2022 19: 38
    The engine is not the best, 12K euros for 4 cylinders??? Our entire grant costs that much.
    In my opinion, here we need to look towards 2-stroke diesel engines from the times of the Second World War, with pistons that move towards each other. German aviation was very famous for such engines. only 600 hp 50-70 is not enough here.
    1. 0
      22 October 2022 20: 09
      There is a Balandin engine without connecting rods, but it seems to be a 4-stroke engine and weighs about 40 kg. On one of Kamov’s helicopters there is, I don’t remember the model, a small one, for agriculture.
  67. 0
    22 October 2022 20: 04
    The shell seems to have already been trained on a UAV back in Syria; at first there were also problems detecting and tracking small, plastic UAVs, but nevertheless they set up a radar. Shahed is definitely no less than those UAVs that tried to break into the base in Khmeimim. There is also a torus. Another question is whether there would be enough missiles; it’s easy to oversaturate any air defense with these flowers
  68. BAI
    -2
    22 October 2022 20: 04
    Somehow the author is not at all aware of the fight against drones.
    Today on TV they showed our fighter in the Donbass with an electronic “gun” - a means of combating UAVs. The phrase was heard - 2 weeks - 20 (TWENTY) UAVs. Excellent result.
  69. 0
    22 October 2022 20: 59
    Everything is being decided, Tunguska or Shilka will save us, and the air defense posts with the DShK-M, all the old ZSUs, will be removed from warehouses and air defense crews will be trained...
  70. +1
    22 October 2022 21: 26
    Anyone who has ever looked at a UAV through a thermal imaging sight will forget all this nonsense about its supposed invisibility once and for all - everything is visible and in sufficient contrast. Another thing is that these are low-flying targets that are difficult to detect in a timely manner and take adequate measures. This is precisely the problem. To guarantee detection, it is necessary to raise special radars to a height of 500 to 5000 m (the cheapest on airships), creating a continuous scanning electromagnetic field paired with optical systems, as well as with automatic processing of the received data and the formation of target designations for destruction weapons. The most realistic option seems to be a light “jump” helicopter with special missile and cannon weapons to destroy such targets from the rear or side hemisphere.
    1. 0
      23 October 2022 13: 14
      You can put a GPS jammer on the airship so that it replaces the coordinates, so that it flies in circles until the fuel runs out
  71. -1
    22 October 2022 22: 54
    There are solutions on how to counter autonomous UAVs, but how to convey them to our generals. That is the question. Until the roast rooster pecks, they won't scratch. But the potential enemy is reading our brainstorming with interest. They have become masters at stealing ideas and poaching specialists.
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  73. 0
    23 October 2022 00: 32
    Quote: garri-lin
    Standard 12 gauge hunting cartridge. Automatic fire.
    Such drones follow the course strictly. They don't maneuver. A fighter drone stupidly goes into the tail and from 20 meters works out several short bursts of buckshot.

    We will have to remember the practice of the Second World War. Twin machine guns.

    Mopeds are uncontrollable; balloons can be raised when approaching strategic objects
  74. 0
    23 October 2022 00: 39
    And this kind of crap should also probably appear.
    1. 0
      23 October 2022 01: 33
      A modern analogue of this system is the Penicillin system.
  75. +1
    23 October 2022 00: 57
    The article is a clear confirmation of the saying “the new is the well forgotten old.” All the methods proposed in the article for combating UAVs were practically tested 30 years ago at the training grounds of the Ministry of Defense during the creation of the Stroy-P Airborne Forces unmanned reconnaissance complex with the Pchela UAV. In those years, a lot of interesting things were done in the field of unmanned aircraft. The mentioned VM "Dan" is the UAV "Dyatel" of the never completed Stroy-A army complex.
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  78. 0
    23 October 2022 11: 17
    The problem of detecting a small aircraft must be solved, and the faster the better.
    . This can indeed become a problem.
    There is no point in hoping that the enemy will not have time to arm himself with something similar.
    What remains relevant... the device is not very smart, it is positioned according to what systems are known... what can be opposed to this???
  79. 0
    23 October 2022 12: 13
    The article states in plain text that this is a weapon of terror and is used for terror, so my question is - is terror a means of victory? The analogies are not very good, but I won’t voice them.
  80. 0
    23 October 2022 12: 36
    I15 into production. Speed, cheapness and mass availability, an ideal tool.
  81. 0
    23 October 2022 13: 09
    It will be correct - Arduinka.
    By the way, it’s impossible to scroll through this site from a mobile phone, the brakes are terrible
  82. 0
    23 October 2022 13: 48
    In principle, this is a variant of the German V-1, where instead of a jet engine there is a gasoline internal combustion engine. There are differences, but the principle of application is approximately similar...
  83. -1
    23 October 2022 14: 29
    Quote: bayard
    About the effectiveness of our colors of life, all your publics are full of. Arestovich is sad. And for those who are especially stubborn, we will bring the quality of our products through the quantity and regularity of their use.
    You still have a lot of wonderful discoveries.
    Brace yourself.

    The thief screams the thief loudest.

    In fact, as usual, you have nothing to say.

    So what’s going on with British intelligence, in which article did you read about this?)
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  85. 0
    24 October 2022 03: 33
    German amateur pilot Matthias Rust, at the age of 18, flew on a light aircraft from Hamburg to Moscow, bypassing the entire complex air defense system of the USSR. On May 28, 1987, he landed on the Bolshoi Moskvoretsky Bridge, next to Red Square, flying unhindered for more than a thousand kilometers. What prevents a drone from doing this?
  86. -1
    24 October 2022 10: 01
    Shilka... Tunguska... and so on. There is no need to invent anything new.
  87. 0
    24 October 2022 12: 11
    Regarding determining the location of such drones: I think that a combined method should work here, both by sound with systems like Penicillin and visually through special mobile applications by local residents, but not just by pressing a button, but by sending photos with the exact coordinates of the place. By the way, acoustic locators appeared in the First World War long before radars and did it quite successfully despite their primitiveness from a modern point of view:

    https://bor-odin.livejournal.com/6240955.html

    Well, I agree with those who advise involving flight school cadets on combat training aircraft in patrolling the skies. We are apparently already so accustomed to the fact that air defense should only be on the ground that we have forgotten that the same piston aircraft can be part of a system for combating air targets. The same An-2s, of which more than a thousand are idle in the Russian Federation, can be modernized so that the maximum speed increases to 400 km/h and they can be used as a kind of flying Pantsir, capable of catching up with drones and destroying them with missiles and (or) aircraft cannon fire. This is again a raid and combat experience for the cadets. I think that there will be no end to young people who want to hunt drones. :)
    And finally, we can speed up the production of the Yak-152 trainer. It is ideal for such purposes.
  88. 0
    24 October 2022 12: 29
    There is an article on this site from 19. The Turks in Libya shot down a drone with a laser mounted on an SUV. (That is, there was enough food) here is the antidote
  89. 0
    24 October 2022 17: 49
    I suspect that the best way to defeat such a scourge would be a Yak-50 type training aircraft with a pair of GShG machine guns. or, we need to quickly, the Yak-130 with them
  90. 0
    24 October 2022 20: 10
    The author made a mistake with Shahid's size. It is not 30-40-30 cm, but almost 2 by 3 meters.
  91. 0
    25 October 2022 06: 59
    Our old reliable corn truck to arm everything new and well-forgotten old
  92. 0
    25 October 2022 09: 21
    It is difficult to fight drones like Geran-2 with conventional approaches. Here we really need to consider weapons like Derivation-Air Defense, since such a drone, due to its relatively large charge, is desirable to hit at the greatest possible distance, and this can be done more effectively with a “smart” anti-aircraft gun projectile. As for aircraft, it must have sufficient loitering time and sufficient speed to catch up with the target when it is detected, i.e. be reactive, be capable of using the smallest basing sites and have low-speed flight and maneuvering capabilities. Russia has two such aircraft, the Yak-130 and SR-10, and the second is preferable due to its low cost and ease of control. In addition to multi-barreled small-caliber machine guns, it can be assumed that such an aircraft will use “pencil” missiles of the PantsirS1 complex.
  93. 0
    25 October 2022 21: 06
    Why not disable navigation based on the drone’s motion vector? Well, there was an EMP gun, and it burned the control unit. Why invent a bicycle?
  94. 0
    26 October 2022 10: 44
    It can be done even cheaper. Replace the engine with a pulsating jet engine like the V-1. Such small engines were made in aircraft modeling circles. They have nothing expensive; the price will be less than a thousand dollars. The disadvantage is higher fuel consumption and more engine noise.
  95. 0
    26 October 2022 10: 58
    Quote from Plumbarius.
    Why not disable navigation based on the drone’s motion vector? Well, there was an EMP gun, and it burned the control unit. Why invent a bicycle?

    It can only use inertial navigation, which will bring it 1-2 kilometers from the target, and only in the target area correction by Glonas, by ground navigation system, by radio Kiev or homing, including by air defense radar or by EMI gun.
  96. 0
    26 October 2022 18: 42
    The first meeting with various UAVs was in Syria. Apparently, then, apart from the increased consumption of missiles, there were no big troubles.
  97. 0
    30 October 2022 09: 54
    From an airplane flying at a minimum speed of 700 km/h.
    - actually, the MiG-29 has a stall speed of about 250 km/h, as far as I remember, what other “700 kilometers”??? You, the author, have confused an airplane with some kind of gunpowder unguided racket.
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  99. 0
    6 December 2022 17: 43
    I opened the article “to bet with myself” - can I guess the author by the title? Happened. Skomorokhov again.
  100. 0
    6 December 2022 19: 08
    Yes, with such situations it will be necessary to put Yak-52 squadrons on the wing, hang 7.62 mm machine guns on them and patrol the sky over the suburbs. At the same time, teach young pilots. Thank God we produce the YAK-52 ourselves and we have design documentation for it. And there are quite a few cars left.