Military Review

October 25 1922 in Soviet Russia ended the civil war

126
October 25 1922 in Soviet Russia ended the civil war October 25 1922 in Soviet Russia ended a bloody civil war. From 4 to 25 in October 1922, the People’s Revolutionary Army of the Far Eastern Republic (the ground forces of the DRV, the 1920 formed in March based on units of the East Siberian Soviet Army) conducted an offensive Primorye operation. It ended in complete success, the white troops were defeated and fled, and the Japanese were evacuated from Vladivostok. This was the last significant operation of the Civil War.

The People's Revolutionary Army of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan under the command of Jerome Utovorevich Petrovich reflected in September the strike of the “Zemstvo rati” (so called the armed forces of the Amur region, formed of the White Guard troops in Primorye) under the command of Lieutenant General Konstantinovich Diterikhs and transferred to control in October. On October 8-9, the Spassky fortified area was taken by assault, where the most capable Volga group of the Zemsky Rait was routed under the command of General Viktor Mikhailovich Molchanov. October 13-14, in cooperation with the partisans on the approaches to Nikolsk-Ussuriisky, broke the main forces of the White Guards. By October 16, the Zemskaya Rabat was completely crushed, its remnants retreated to the Korean border or began to be evacuated through Vladivostok. October 19 The Red Army reached Vladivostok, where up to 20 thousands of servicemen of the Japanese army were based. October 24 Japanese command was forced to conclude an agreement with the government of the DRV on the withdrawal of its troops from the southern Primorye.

The last ships with the remnants of the White Guard units and the Japanese left the city of October 25. At four o'clock in the afternoon 25 October 1922, units of the People’s Revolutionary Army of the Far Eastern Republic entered Vladivostok. In Russia, the Civil War ended. In three weeks, the Far East will become an integral part of the Soviet Republic. 4 - 15 November 1922 of the year at the session of the People's Assembly of the FER was decided to dissolve and restore Soviet power in the Far East. The people's assembly was also supported by the NRA commanders. November 15 DRV was incorporated into the RSFSR as the Far Eastern region.

Situation in Primorye in the summer - in the autumn of 1922

From the middle of 1922, the last stage of the struggle with the White Guards and interventionists in the Far East began. The situation in the East has changed dramatically in favor of Soviet Russia. The defeat of the White Guards near Volochaevka in February shook the position of the Japanese in Primorye. The victorious conclusion of the Civil War in the European part of Russia, a turn in the foreign policy area - Soviet Russia was emerging from isolation, a series of diplomatic and economic negotiations with capitalist countries began, all of which influenced the Japanese government’s policy towards Russia.

The American government, to earn points in the field of "peacemaking" (after the failure of its own military adventure in Russia) and convinced of the uselessness of Washington’s stay in the Far East, began to put strong pressure on Tokyo, demanding to withdraw its troops from Russian Primorye. The United States did not want to strengthen the position of the Japanese Empire in the Asia-Pacific region, since they themselves wanted to dominate this region.

In addition, the situation was not the best in Japan itself. The economic crisis, the huge expenditure on intervention - they reached 1,5 billion yen, human losses, low return on expansion into Russian lands, caused a sharp increase in public discontent. The internal political situation was not the best for the “party of war”. Economic problems, the growth of the tax burden led to an increase in protest moods in the country. In the summer of 1922, the Communist Party was established in Japan, which began to work to create the League Against Intervention. Various anti-war societies appear in the country, in particular, the Society for the Rapprochement with Soviet Russia, the Association of Non-intervention, and so on.

As a result of the political situation that was unfavorable for the Japanese military party, Takahashi's cabinet resigned. The Minister of War and the Chief of the General Staff also resigned. The new government, headed by Admiral Kato, who represented the interests of the "maritime party", inclined to shift the center of gravity of the expansion of the Japanese Empire from the shores of Primorye to the Pacific, made a statement about the cessation of hostilities in Primorye.

4 September 1922 launched a new conference in Changchun, which was attended by the joint delegation of the RSFSR and the FER on the one hand and the delegation of the Japanese Empire on the other. The Soviet delegation immediately made the main condition for further negotiations with Japan - to immediately clear all the territories of the Far East from the Japanese forces. The Japanese representative Matsudaira went away from a direct response to this condition. Only after the Soviet delegation decided to leave the conference, did the Japanese side say that the evacuation of the Japanese troops from Primorye was already resolved. However, the Japanese refused to withdraw troops from North Sakhalin. They were going to keep it for themselves as compensation for the “Nikolaev incident”. So, they called the armed conflict between the red partisans, white and Japanese troops, which occurred in Nikolayevsk-on-Amur in the 1920 year. It was used by the Japanese command to attack on the night of 4 on 5 on April 1920 of the year on the organs of the Soviet administration and military garrisons in the Far East.

The delegation of the RSFSR and the FID demanded the withdrawal of troops from all Soviet territories. Negotiations reached an impasse and September 19 was interrupted. After the resumption of negotiations, both sides continued to insist on their demands. Then the representatives of the DRV offered to investigate the "Nikolaev events" and discuss them on the merits. The Japanese authorities could not go for it, because the provocative behavior of the Japanese military could be revealed. The head of the Japanese delegation said that the Japanese government cannot enter into the details of the “Nicholas events”, since the governments of the RSFSR and the FER are not recognized by Japan. As a result, 26 September negotiations were again interrupted. In reality, the negotiations in Changchun should have become a cover for the preparation of a new military operation against the DRV.

The situation in the Amur region Zemsky Krai was unstable. The government of Spiridon Merkulov discredited himself even in the eyes of the local bourgeoisie, "selling" the Ussurian railway, the port on Egersheld, the Suchan coal mines, the Far Eastern Shipbuilding Plant, etc., to the Japanese. The Chamber of Commerce and Industry of Vladivostok even demanded that all power be handed over to the "National Assembly". The government was not able to organize an effective fight against partisan detachments. The guerrilla movement in the summer - fall of 1922 took on a significant scale in the Southern Primorye. Red partisans made raids on Japanese posts, military warehouses, destroyed communications, communication lines, attacked military echelons. In fact, by the autumn the Japanese were forced to leave the countryside, holding only the railway and the city.

In the camp of the White Guards also went fermentation. Kappelevtsy supported the "People's Assembly", which declared the Merkulov government deposed. Semenovna, on the other hand, continued to support the Merkulovs (the chairman’s brother, Nikolai Merkulov, served as minister of naval and foreign affairs), who in turn issued a decree dissolving the Chamber of Commerce and the National Assembly. The People’s Assembly established its own cabinet of ministers and then decided to combine the functions of the chairman of the new government and the commander of the armed forces of Primorye. In fact, it was about creating a military dictatorship. General Michael Diterikhs was invited to this post. He was the commander of the Siberian army, the Eastern Front and the chief of staff of A.V. Kolchak. After the defeat of Kolchak left for Harbin. He was an ardent monarchist and supporter of the revival of the pre-Petrine social and political order in Russia. Initially, he agreed with the Merkulovs and confirmed their authority in the Amur region. "People's Assembly" was dissolved. 28 June was assembled "Zemsky Sobor". 23 July 1922, at the Zemsky Sobor in Vladivostok, M. Diterikhs was elected Ruler of the Far East and Zemsky Voevod - commander of the Zemsky Party (it was created on the basis of the White Guard units). The Japanese were asked weapons and ammunition, and the postponement of the evacuation of Japanese troops. By September 1922, the reorganization and armament of the “Zemstvo rati” was completed, and General Diterikhs announced a campaign against the DRV under the slogan “For Faith, Tsar Mikhail and Holy Russia.”

State of the People’s Revolutionary Army (NAR) by the fall of 1922

From the Combined and Chita brigades, the 2nd Amur Rifle Division was formed as part of three regiments: the 4th Volochaev Order of the Red Banner, the 5th Amur and 6th Khabarovsk. It also included the Troitskosavsky cavalry regiment, light artillery division of 76-mm cannons of a 3-battery composition, a howitzer division of two batteries and an engineer battalion. The commander of the 2nd Amur Rifle Division was simultaneously the commander of the Amur Military District, he was subordinated to the Blagoveshchensk fortified area, the division of armored trains (consisting of three armored trains - No. 2, 8 and 9), aviation detachment and two border cavalry divisions. The Trans-Baikal Cavalry Division was reorganized into the Separate Far Eastern Cavalry Brigade.

The command reserve included the 1-I Trans-Baikal Rifle Division consisting of: 1-th Chita, 2-th Nerchinsky and 3-th Verkhneudinsky regiments. The regular parts of the NRA to the beginning of the Seaside operation numbered over 15 thousand bayonets and sabers, 42 guns and 431 machine gun. The NRA relied on the assistance of the 5 th Red Banner Army, which was located in Eastern Siberia and Transbaikalia.

In addition, guerrilla military districts submitted to the command of the NRA: Suchansky, Spassky, Anuchinsky, Nikolsk-Ussuriysky, Olginsky, Imansky and Prikhankaysky. They had at their disposal up to 5 thousand fighters. They were led by a specially created Military Council of partisan detachments of Primorye under the leadership of A. K. Flegontov, then replaced by M. Volsky.

The beginning of the evacuation of the Japanese. "Zemsky army" Diterikhs and its September offensive

The Japanese, delaying their evacuation, decided to hold it in three stages. On the first, to withdraw troops from the suburbs of Primorye, on the second, to evacuate the garrisons from Grodekovo and Nikolsk-Ussuriisky, on the third to leave Vladivostok. The commander of the Japanese expeditionary corps, General Tachibana, suggested that Diterikhsu take advantage of this time in order to strengthen and strike at the DRV. In late August, the Japanese began to gradually withdraw their troops from Spassk to the south. At the same time, the White Guards began to occupy areas cleaned by the Japanese, to receive from them fortifications, abandoned weapons.

In September, the Zemsky Militia numbered around 8 thousand bayonets and sabers, 24 guns, 81 machine guns and 4 armored trains. Its basis was formed by units of the former Far Eastern Army, which had previously been part of the army of General V. O. Kappel and Ataman G. M. Semenov. Zemsky army was divided into: Volga group of General V.M. Molchanov (more than 2,6 thousand bayonets and sabers); Siberian group of General I.S. Smolin (1 thousand people); Siberian Cossack group of General Borodin (more than 900 people); Far Eastern Cossack group of General FL Glebova (more than 1 thousand); reserve and technical parts (more than 2,2 thousand).

Attempts to Diterikhs to increase the "army" at the expense of mobilization as a whole failed. Workers and peasants did not want to fight, hiding in the taiga and on the hills. The bulk of the bourgeois youth chose to escape in out of reach of the Bolsheviks Harbin, and not to defend the Amur region Zemsky edge. Therefore, although the backbone of the "rati" consisted of remnants of the Kappelevsky and Semenovsky troops who had a great combat experience, but there was no one to replace them.

September 1 avant-garde "Zemstvo rati" - the Volga group, supported by two armored trains, launched an offensive in the north. The Whites sought to seize the railway bridge across the Ussuri River near the station. Ussuri and led the attack in two main directions: along the Ussuriysk railway and to the east of it - through the settlements of Runovka - Olkhovka - Uspenka, further along the valley of the r. Ussuri on Tehmenevo and Glazovka. In the second direction, White planned to enter the flank and the rear in red. By this time, the NRA had not concentrated its forces, which were scattered over a thousand-kilometer space, covering the operational directions that were far from each other (Manchu and Ussuri). As a result, the white parts having a numerical advantage pushed aside the Reds and September 6 captured Art. Shmakovka and Assumption. September 7 Red after a fierce battle moved further north to the river Ussuri at the line Medveditsky - Glazovka. At the same time, the Siberian group and the Siberian Cossack group of generals Smolin and Borodin began fighting against partisans in the Prikhankaysky, Lpuchi, Suchan and Nikolsk-Ussuri military districts.

Soon, the Red Army units regrouped, received reinforcements, and launched a counteroffensive; on September 14, they again occupied Art. Shmakovka and Assumption. White moved to the area of ​​travel Kraevsky, Art. Oviyaginos. As a result, whites actually returned to their starting positions. The White Command did not have sufficient forces to develop the offensive and after receiving information about the concentration of the NRA troops that had begun in Primorye, it chose to go on the defensive.

September 15 Diterikhs held the Far Eastern National Congress in Nikolsk-Ussuriysk, where he called for "giving a decisive battle to the communists on the last free piece of land" and asked the Japanese not to rush into evacuation. A special body, the “Council of the Congress”, was elected to help Diterikhs. A decree on general mobilization was issued and a large emergency tax was imposed on the commercial and industrial segments of the population of Primorye for military needs. The Siberian Cossack group of General Borodin was given the order to crush the Anuchinsky partisan district in order to secure the rear of the Zemsky rati. None of these activities has been fully implemented. The Chamber of Commerce declared the lack of funds, the population of the region was in no hurry to "replenish the Zemsky Army" and enter into a "decisive battle with the Communists."

The Zemsky Host, at the beginning of the offensive of the Red Army, consisted of about 15,5 thousand bayonets and sabers, 32 guns, 750 machine guns, 4 armored trains and 11 aircraft. Her weapons and ammunition were replenished by the Japanese army.

Seaside operation

By the end of September, parts of the 2-th Amur Division and the Separate Far Eastern Caubrigade were concentrated in the area of ​​Art. Shmakovka and Art. Ussuri. They formed a strike force under the overall command of the commander of the 2-th Amur Division, MM M. Olshansky, in the beginning of October he was replaced by Ya. Z. Pokus. 1-I Trans-Baikal Division, following by rail in trains and along the Amur and Ussuri rivers on steamboats, passed Khabarovsk and moved south. This division entered the reserve command of the NRA.

According to the command plan, the immediate task of the operation was the liquidation of the enemy's Volga region group in the area of ​​art. Sviyagino The Red Army was supposed to prevent its withdrawal to Spassk, and then defeat the Spassky group of whites with the assistance of partisan detachments and develop the offensive in a southerly direction. The 5 of October should have been hit by two groups of troops. The first is the Separate Far Eastern Caubrigade and the 5 th Amur Regiment, reinforced with 4 guns, was supposed to strike around the railway line from the east. The second, the 6 th Khabarovsk rifle regiment and Troitskosavsky cavalry regiment, with a light artillery battalion and two armored trains, had the task of advancing along the Ussuri railway. The remaining parts remained in reserve.

The commander of the partisans, Mikhail Petrovich Volsky, his detachments were reinforced by a special-purpose detachment under the command of Gülzhof, was ordered to defeat enemy units located in the Anuchino-Ivanovka area by any means. And then concentrate the main forces in the area of ​​Chernyshevka for an offensive in the general direction of Art. Flour and access to the rear of the Spassky group "Zemsky rati." In addition, the partisans were to stop the railway communication between Nikolsk-Ussuriysk and Art. Evgenievka.

The first stage of the operation (4 — 7 of October). In the morning, the Reds launched an offensive along the railroad and, after a stubborn 2-hour battle, captured the Kraevsky junction. October 5 was captured Duhovsky. October 6 The 6 th Khabarovsk and Troitskosavsk regiments launched an attack on the station. Sviyagino On the same day, the Povolzhskaya group "Zemsky rati" in full force, with the support of two armored trains, launched a counter-offensive, trying to knock off the offensive rush of the Reds and seize the initiative in their hands. A fierce head-on battle broke out in Sviyagino. Violent firefight, developing into a melee, lasted until late evening.

General Molchanov, convinced that the red units could not be overthrown and fearing to bypass the right flank, decided to withdraw his troops to Spassk, to ready-made positions. White retreated, hiding behind the fire of armored trains, artillery and machine-gun teams, destroying railway tracks. This withdrawal became possible, since the bypassing group failed to reach the flank and rear of the White Volga region in time. As a result, White moved to Spassk calmly.

Jacob Pokus, trying to correct the mistake, decided to go and attack Spassk. On the morning of October 7, an order was given to attack and seize Spassk in the evening. However, the troops were already tired of previous battles and marches, and could not fulfill this order.

During the 1 th stage, the NRA was able to move south almost 50 km and capture an important point of the enemy defense - Art. Sviyagino But to fulfill the main task - to destroy the Volga grouping of the enemy, failed. Whites, though they suffered heavy losses, left and consolidated on the new, well-fortified border of the Spassky fortified area.



To be continued ...
Author:
126 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. grizzlir
    grizzlir 25 October 2012 08: 46
    +11
    Dieterich’s attempts to increase the “army” due to mobilization as a whole failed. Workers and peasants did not want to fight; they hid in the taiga and on hills. The bulk of the bourgeois youth chose to flee in the harbin beyond the reach of the Bolsheviks, rather than defend the Amur Zemsky Territory.
    The true reason for the defeat of the well-armed and equipped white army. The people did not support the whites. As for the bourgeois youth of that time, it looked like modern young bourgeois. The same patriotic slogans: FOR FAITH, TSAR, FATHERLAND. The same is not the desire to fight and sit out. They are ready to fight, only with the wrong hands or as it is now on the Internet.
    1. Click-Klyak
      Click-Klyak 25 October 2012 08: 59
      -12
      By and large, a victory in civilian life was ensured by the decision to attract former tsarist officers. Before that, red bits were usually.
      Not everyone knows, but more tsarist officers fought in the Red Army than in Belaya.
      How did you manage to attract and who attracted? Trotsky with his institute of hostage. In the case of treason of the officer, his family went under the knife.
      Stalin was strongly opposed, he considered it necessary to simply destroy the officers. But Lenin farsightedly supported Trotsky.
      In general, the main merit in the victory belongs to Leon Trotsky.
      He was a favorite of the army. After the war, Stalin made a lot of efforts to stifle these sentiments in the army along with their carriers.
      After Trotsky was declared an enemy of the people, civil history was rewritten. As Zhukov says that the history of the Patriotic War is almost entirely invented, so is the history of civil. Real heroes are forgotten. And the same Stalin, who was noted only for the defeat of the Red Army in Tsaritsyn and in Poland, became a hero.
      1. vadimN
        vadimN 25 October 2012 12: 39
        +5
        Quote: Click-Gag
        In general, the main merit in the victory belongs to Leon Trotsky.
        He was a favorite of the army.


        And where did you read that? Trotsky was a tough and even cruel organizer. it was he who introduced the mechanism of hostage in the Red Army for the families of officers, who are often forcibly called up to the SC. he introduced the so-called decimations in parts - this is when every tenth Red Army soldier was shot in the backing unit as a warning to others and to ward off the desire to retreat.
        This is the bloody executioner of Russia, the organizer of the extermination of the colors of the Russian nation - intelligentsia, officers, entrepreneurs.

        Read the original sources:

        L. Trotsky (Bronstein):
        “It should be clear to each of you that the old ruling classes inherited their art, their knowledge, their skill in managing from their grandfathers and great-grandfathers. And this often replaced their own mind and abilities.

        What can we oppose to this? How to compensate for your inexperience? Remember, comrades, only terror! Terror is consistent and merciless! History will never forgive us for compliance. If so far we have destroyed hundreds and thousands, now it is time to create an organization, an apparatus that, if necessary, can destroy tens of thousands. We have no time, no opportunity to seek out our real, active enemies. We are forced to take the path of annihilation, destruction of the physical of all classes, all groups of the population, from which possible enemies of our government can emerge.

        - There is only one objection that deserves attention and needs clarification - This is that, destroying en masse, and above all the intelligentsia, we are destroying the specialists and scientists we need; engineers, doctors. Fortunately, comrades, there are an abundance of such specialists abroad. Finding them is easy. If we pay them well, they will willingly come to work for us. Of course, it will be much easier for us to control them than ours. Here they will not be associated with their class and its fate. Being politically isolated, they will inevitably be neutral.
        Patriotism, love for the homeland, for one’s people, for those around, distant and close, for those who live at that moment, for those who crave the happiness of the small, inconspicuous, self-sacrifice, heroism - what is the value of all these empty words in front of a similar program, which is already being implemented and is being uncompromisingly implemented! "
        1. Taratut
          Taratut 25 October 2012 13: 20
          -4
          You misunderstood something. It's not that Trotsky is a wonderful person.
          General Denikin writes:
          “At the head of the armed forces was the Supreme Military Revolutionary Council with chairman Bronstein and members of Podvoisky, Antonov, Stalin and others. In fact, however, all power was in the hands of Bronstein.”
          “The disunity of the White Command, on the one hand, as well as Trotsky’s administrative and strategic talent, on the other, decided the outcome of the case. Both opposing armies were born out of a mass of peasant partisans and nonprofessional militias. Through trial and error, Trotsky forged a professional and combat-ready army from among its masses. ” (Harper Encyclopedia of Military History).

          Once upon a time, one of the most popular slogans of the Soviet era was the words:
          “We say - Lenin, we mean - the party, we say - the party, we mean - Lenin!” With full justification, this slogan could be changed:
          "We say - the Red Army, we mean - Leo Davidovich Trotsky!"
          http://www.74rif.ru/trozki.html
          Trotsky's influence in the army after the war was enormous. The cunning Stalin for a long time kept the army in a black body, insufficient funds were allocated for its maintenance. Many military men left the army to feed their families. Then the purges began, lasting almost until the war.
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 25 October 2012 16: 40
            +2
            Quote: Taratut
            . The cunning Stalin for a long time kept the army in a black body

            the number of armored cars, armored trains, artillery, airplanes, the massive replacement of military uniforms in the army indicate the opposite.
            Quote: Taratut
            Many military men left the army to feed their families.

            lying, many went to the army and to the state Soviet service because of starvation (do you remember rations in rations?), the only way out was to serve and work for the Soviet power!
      2. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 25 October 2012 12: 56
        +7
        Quote: Click-Gag
        Trotsky with his institute of hostage.

        Nonsense!

        Quote: Click-Gag
        Stalin was strongly opposed, he considered it necessary to simply destroy the officers.

        Nonsense!

        Quote: Click-Gag
        As Zhukov says that the history of the Patriotic War is almost entirely invented, so is the history of civil.

        You already somehow decide on Zhukov, otherwise you believe him, when it’s convenient for you, or not
        1. Taratut
          Taratut 25 October 2012 15: 50
          -3
          Quote: Karlsonn
          Nonsense!

          A number of leading military party members opposed the party’s line to use old military specialists in the construction of the Red Army. This opposition has formed on
          on the Tsaritsyn front, under the leadership of Stalin and Voroshilov, and Stalin acted behind the scenes according to his custom: in Tsaritsyn he pursued an "anti-special" line and directed the cadres towards it, but at the VIII Party Congress he did not vote for the opposition's proposals. On this basis, official historians have denied and continue to deny the fact that Stalin was an active participant in the military opposition.
          http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/ABRAMOWICH/abramowich2.txt
          [
          Quote: Brother Sarich
          Actually, there were more officers in the Red Army initially, and without Trotsky ...
          History has been rewritten many times - at first the hunchbacked rewrote it under Lev Davydovich

          This is when they had time to write and rewrite history under Trotsky?
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 25 October 2012 16: 42
            +4
            Quote: Taratut
            This opposition has formed on
            Tsaritsyno front, under the leadership of Stalin

            lying.

            Quote: Taratut
            This is when they had time to write and rewrite history under Trotsky?

            you need to read not only what confirms your views.
      3. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 25 October 2012 13: 57
        +2
        Actually, there were more officers in the Red Army initially, and without Trotsky ...
        History was rewritten many times - at first the hunch-beetles rewritten it under Lev Davydovich, then they tried to delete it from history - in principle, this was wrong too ...
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 25 October 2012 14: 16
          0
          Brother Sarych hi ,
          it is good to see sanity; indeed, far more officers took the side of the Reds than the White.
          The issue of the officer corps should be considered more broadly, somehow a huge number of officers who were killed directly in their units, immediately after the bourgeois revolution and at the beginning of the Civil one, are constantly being bracketed; there is one more fact that is forgotten - the number of officers who ended up in exile, their number is much larger than those who were able to flee after the defeat.
      4. wax
        wax 25 October 2012 15: 44
        +3
        Hostage can cause fear, not skill in conducting hostilities. Tsarist officers who fought on the side of the working people did this consciously.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 25 October 2012 16: 52
          +1
          I absolutely agree, a classic example is Shaposhnikov and the 184 tsarist general who served in the Red Army! And only SIX of 185 under duress, that is, by mobilization!
          A.G. Kavtoradze "Military Specialists in the Service of the Republic of Soviets of 1917-1920." USSR Academy of Sciences, 1988
    2. Beck
      Beck 25 October 2012 10: 19
      -2
      The victory of the Bolsheviks in the civil war is due to two factors.

      The fact that the fighting of the Reds was led by PROFESSIONALS - former officers of the tsarist army, who formed the basis of all headquarters of all ranks. The commanders such as Budenny, Voroshilov, Kulik are propaganda slogans. They showed their worthlessness in the Finnish war and in the initial period of the war. Until they were replaced by commanders, generations of Zhukov, trained in schools and academies where the teachers were also tsarist officers. An insignificant part of military specialists, tsarist officers, joined the Red Army for ideological reasons. The overwhelming majority served in the headquarters of the Red Army involuntarily, since the Cheka took their families hostage.

      THE MAIN THING. The white movement, even in a deadly battle, could not sacrifice the principles of truth and honor. The white movement could not put forward impracticable slogans. And even more so False slogans. Unscrupulous Bolsheviks put forward slogans that they were not going to fulfill.
      PEACE TO PEOPLE. And immediately after the victory, war communism behind barbed wire. Repression, suppression of peasant uprisings. Gulags, executions. And this is to their own people. Needless to say about others.
      LAND TO PEASANTS. Dekulakization, food surpluses, creation of collective farms. Where not only their land was not, but their plow was not.
      PLANTS WORKING. Factories and factories only changed owners. There were capitalists, it became a state. The workers didn’t, so they remained half-slaves at the machine tools.
      The white movement could not give such false and unscrupulous slogans in principle. The Bolsheviks gave, with the help of the people they won and forgot about their promises. And only enslaved the people more than the royal.

      In my opinion. After the February Revolution, Russia would move from an absolute monarchy to a constitutional monarchy. Where the king would only perform representative functions, like the Queen of Great Britain today. And that would be the best for Russia, had the Bolsheviks not intervened.
      1. 8 company
        8 company 25 October 2012 10: 45
        -9
        Quote: Beck
        THE MAIN THING. The white movement, even in a deadly battle, could not sacrifice the principles of truth and honor. The white movement could not put forward impracticable slogans. And even more so False slogans. Unscrupulous Bolsheviks put forward slogans that they were not going to fulfill.


        Absolutely right. Only sooner, not the Bolsheviks in general, but the leaders of the Bolsheviks.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 25 October 2012 13: 03
          +6
          Did the white movement have principles and honor?
          What you know about the reasons for the failure of Kolchak in Siberia is offhand.
          Unprincipled Bolsheviks? Winners are not judged, and losers can squeak from under the shops as much as they like, which they lost to a more immoral enemy than they are.
          1. Beck
            Beck 25 October 2012 14: 08
            -5
            Carson.

            Everything has flaws and exceptions. But the white movement did not tell the peasants - here you will help the Reds defeat, we will give the whole land of the landlords in gratitude to you.
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 25 October 2012 14: 19
              +4
              Quote: Beck
              But the white movement did not tell the peasants

              The White movement did not say anything intelligible to the peasantry, the main part of the population of tsarist Russia, and as I said, this is one of the main reasons for the defeat of the White movement.
      2. Click-Klyak
        Click-Klyak 25 October 2012 10: 47
        -3
        I will add that the fate of these military specialists is sad.
        For the most part, those who survived to the end of the thirties were repressed.
        1. Beck
          Beck 25 October 2012 11: 31
          0
          8th company, Click-Klyaku.

          Thanks for support. And most importantly for sanity.
          1. 8 company
            8 company 25 October 2012 12: 25
            0
            Quote: Beck
            Thanks for support. And most importantly for sanity.


            It will not rust after me. good
        2. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 25 October 2012 13: 05
          +3
          Triandafillov, Shaposhnikov?
      3. rexby63
        rexby63 25 October 2012 12: 40
        -2
        could not sacrifice the principles of truth and honor


        The White movement in general gravitated to cadet sociopolitical values, and it was the interaction of the Cadets with the officer environment that determined both the strategic and tactical objectives of the White movement. Monarchists and Black Hundreds made up only a small part of the White movement and did not use the decisive vote.
        The historian S. Volkov writes that "in general, the spirit of the white armies was moderately monarchical," while the White movement did not put forward monarchist slogans.
        A. Denikin noted that the vast majority of the command staff and officers of his army were monarchists, while he writes that the officers themselves were not very interested in politics and the class struggle, and for the most part it was an element of a purely serving, typical “intelligent proletariat” ".
        The white movement was made up of forces that were heterogeneous in their political composition, but united in the idea of ​​rejection of Bolshevism.
        I would especially like to highlight the moment that the bulk of them gravitated towards the cadets. No wonder the people called them - Kadets. And with regard to slogans - what is bad about "All power to the Constituent Assembly"? And this slogan had considerable support. Then why didn't it work? The point is most likely "not in the bobbin, just disconnect .. he was sitting in the cockpit." Culturally speaking, the part of the officers who constituted the best forces of the White movement were not elite at the time of the outbreak of the Civil War. Although it possessed many of its features. Many, but not all. And the Bolsheviks did not care about the "fair" rules of the game. They needed a victory, they achieved it. The winners are not judged, and already in 1921 the "proud Britons" (also those people of honor) began to trade with the Bolsheviks. Ten years have passed since the October coup, and all and sundry are kissing the Bolsheviks.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 25 October 2012 13: 13
          +7
          I agree with almost everything, only officers and soldiers of the White Movement represented the entire political spectrum, compare the positions of Wrangel, Kornilov, Denikin, Semenov, Yudenich and during the war they could not agree among themselves, but what would have won the white (God did not give thanks to him!) scary to imagine.
      4. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 25 October 2012 12: 58
        +4
        Quote: Beck
        The commanders such as Budenny, Voroshilov, Kulik are propaganda slogans.

        Do not be like the mediocrity that denigrates Budyonny.

        Quote: Beck
        An insignificant part of military specialists, tsarist officers, joined the Red Army for ideological reasons. The overwhelming majority served in the headquarters of the Red Army involuntarily, since the Cheka took their families hostage.

        Nonsense.

        Quote: Beck
        In my opinion. After the February Revolution, Russia would move from an absolute monarchy to a constitutional monarchy. Where the king would only perform representative functions, like the Queen of Great Britain today. And that would be the best for Russia, had the Bolsheviks not intervened.

        Nonsense.

        1. Beck
          Beck 25 October 2012 13: 50
          -4
          Carson.

          We are ideological rivals. But I think we will not reach ideological enemies. And we won’t exclude arguments by means of Mauser.

          Quote: Karlsonn
          Do not be like the mediocrity that denigrates Budyonny.


          The cavalry commander, by definition, could not know the strategy and tactics of the wars of the 20th century. It was during drainage times that nuggets could appear. Chiefs of Staff 1 mounted. Gorchakov - the headquarters captain, studied at the Nikolaev Academy of the General Staff. Shchelokov - captain of the Army Army graduated from the Mikhailovsky Artillery School. Klyuev - lieutenant colonel of the army. He graduated from the cadet infantry school and 2 classes of the Nikolaev Academy.

          “On September 5, 1918, the institution of hostage was officially established in Soviet Russia, legalized by the order of the head of the NKVD GI Petrovsky. Trotsky also supported the initiative, extending it to the families of former officers
          and military officials "


          As for the constitutional monarchy, this is my assumption. And no suggestions are forbidden.
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 25 October 2012 14: 23
            +1
            Quote: Beck
            But I think we will not reach ideological enemies.

            Do not wait wink drinks .

            Quote: Beck
            The cavalry commander, by definition, could not know the strategy and tactics of the wars of the 20 century.

            The civil war in Russia was unique in its form and at that time had no analogues. In tsarist Russia, in officers' schools, you didn’t prepare for this, and let me disagree with the vahmistra’s account: with social upheavals and revolutions, social elevators work best, the example of Napoleon’s marshal, Soviet marshals, officers of the General Staff of Russia (tsarist) could not do anything with the convict Makhno .
            1. Beck
              Beck 25 October 2012 14: 41
              +1
              Quote: Karlsonn
              Do not wait


              This is what distinguishes adequate people.

              Napoleonic wars are a completely different strategy. There is more wall to the wall. Makhno is partisan.

              1MV and Grazhdanskaya is the front line from this to the entom, which is not to be seen. Where it is necessary to manipulate the divisions of the armies combining this with supply and communications. And a lot of what I don’t know.

              Wahmists could famously command squadrons, regiments, brigades, fulfilling a limited tactical task. To such a date, to such a certain time, take the station, village, village. And nothing more. Examples Schors, Parkhomenko.
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 25 October 2012 15: 01
                +3
                Quote: Beck
                1MV and Civic is the front line from this to the entom that can not be seen.

                you are mistaken, this is World War I’s trench, in Civil it’s a maneuvering war, where the front line as such might not be there, on the train if you were lucky you could get from Kiev to Vladivostok!
                They were driven by huge highly maneuverable and mobile troops, Makhno understood this immediately and the enormous mass of cavalry swept away both white, red, and Sich archers and Petliurists, and interventionists, when the Bolsheviks saw how it worked they created the First Horse and the wahmists began to beat the generals, and the competent use of the mobilization reserves of tsarist Russia allowed the Red Army to be equipped with everything necessary from shells to artillery to airplanes.

                Quote: Beck
                To such a date, to such a certain time, take the station, village, village. And nothing more. Examples Schors, Parkhomenko.

                your lie again - Frunze and Makhno took Perekop and the Civil War in Russia ended, even Slashchev did not save.
                1. Beck
                  Beck 25 October 2012 16: 08
                  -3
                  Carlson.

                  Partially agree that the Civil Trenches were not prerogative. But the Wahmists could not develop plans for the offensive of divisions, corps, and armies.

                  Perekop took the troops according to the plans to the developed headquarters, led by tsvr officers. And in the forehead, the Red Army 51 rifle, communist division under the command of Blucher.

                  Makhno is a partisan. During the day, in the villages and farmsteads, the men were engaged in agricultural work. At night they filmed and went into the raid. A day, two, a week, another - as appropriate. The only thing that was adopted from Makhno is the carts with Maxim machine guns. After the capture of Perekop, the remnants of the battered Red troops stood behind Perekop. The white cavalry division launched a counterattack. The Red command had no forces to stop. It was then that Makhno brought forward and deployed his carts with Maxims. And he gave the command - "Lads rob the dirt". The white cavalry division was destroyed and scattered. This innovation was taken by the Red Army. Maxim machine guns were put on city carts pulled by three horses and received the famous Tachanka.

                  For the interest. Blucher at Perekop used the tactics of human waves. When the Red Army went on dagger fire chain by chain like waves.
                  He used the same tactics in Primorye. Before the trenches of the whites there were 4 or 5 lines of wire fences. Blucher sent seven chains to attack. The first and sixth chains are Koreans. The first chain with scissors for metal for cutting wire. The rest of the Korean chains are without scissors, the second chain took scissors from those killed in the first chain, etc. So they removed all the wire barriers. But the seventh chain were the Red Army with rifles.
                  In the 20s of the 20th century, Blucher was a military adviser to Chai-Kan-Shi. And he transferred the experience of human waves to the Chinese, which is now the main tactic of the offensive in the Chinese army. This affected the clash with the Chinese on Damansky Island.
                  1. Karlsonn
                    Karlsonn 25 October 2012 16: 58
                    +2
                    You are mistaken again.
                    Former young Chuikov in civilian successfully commanded a regiment.
                    Makhno raided throughout Ukraine and only dismissed the army a couple of times, took cities and how do you explain disarmament and arrests with executions of Makhnovists in Crimea if they were not in Crimea?
                    Reread taking Perekop one more time.
                    Crimea was taken through Sivash.
                    1. Beck
                      Beck 25 October 2012 17: 07
                      -4
                      Carlson.

                      You probably inattentively read my previous koment. I wrote that the Makhnovist carts with Maxims destroyed and scattered the counter-attacking White division of the Whites.

                      The main udao was through Sivash. A distracting blow to the forehead at Perekop ..

                      But the disarmament and execution of the Makhnovists is this attitude to the agreements and the word of the Bolsheviks. What can I say here.

                      Chuykov. So I wrote above that people like Budenny could command a squadron, regiment, but not corps and armies.
                      1. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 25 October 2012 18: 33
                        +2
                        Quote: Beck
                        The main udao was through Sivash

                        The Makhnovists just walked through Sivash.
                        Remind me why Makhno was given the Order of the Red Banner?

                        Quote: Beck
                        But the disarmament and execution of the Makhnovists is this attitude to the agreements and the word of the Bolsheviks.

                        at that time, Makhno more than once turned his weapon against the Bolsheviks, or do you really think that it was necessary to give Makhno Crimea?

                        Quote: Beck
                        that people like Budenny could command a squadron, regiment, but not corps and armies.

                        Frunze - the commander of the armies and fronts in the Civil had no military education; I was just talking about it -
                        Quote: Karlsonn
                        with social upheavals and revolutions, social elevators work best, for example, the marshals of Napoleon, the marshals of the USSR,
              2. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 25 October 2012 21: 03
                +1
                Beck "WW1 and Grazhdanskaya is the front line from this to the next, which is not to be seen." These wars are very different from each other. 1 MV, except for the initial period, the war is a positional one with all the consequences ... Civil is a maneuverable one. The role of the cavalry was high. And here people quickly moved forward, capable of disciplining and acting decisively.
            2. revnagan
              revnagan 25 October 2012 15: 47
              +3
              Quote: Karlsonn
              The civil war in Russia was unique in its form and at that time had no analogues.

              That's right. And it gave rise to unique people. An example is Mikhail Frunze. And I was able to uncover Baron Wrangel, a professional military man. And there are many such examples. The Civil War gave birth to many talented generals "from the bottom", without military education.
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 25 October 2012 17: 00
                +2
                Quote: revnagan
                And there are many such examples.

                Zhukov, Rokossovsky, Chuykov and many, many others
      5. iCuD
        iCuD 25 October 2012 13: 19
        +2
        In general, I completely agree with you! BUT spoils everything
        Quote: Beck
        The white movement, even in a deadly battle, could not sacrifice the principles of truth and honor. The white movement could not put forward impracticable slogans. And even more so False slogans.

        What is it? I’m becoming more and more convinced that people recently can’t look at history unprincipled at all ... some are drawn to monarchs, others are to advice, and others are generally to religion !! o_o
        Why justify the whites or denigrate the red ?? Both those and those put impracticable slogans, executed, burned, raped. Or do you want to say that White did not put false slogans? Both those and those were cruel in relation to ordinary citizens who just wanted to live, and it did not matter who won.
        Why argue about the saddest times of the country? is not it better to simply not allow this in the future?
        Well, on the topic, in general, it seems to me that the victory of the Reds was predetermined. Especially after the execution of the royal family.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 25 October 2012 13: 30
          +4
          Quote: iCuD
          Both those and those put impracticable slogans, executed, burned, raped.

          Civil war is the worst of all forms of war.
          White did not have ideas and slogans that were understandable and accessible to the people - one of the reasons for the defeat.


          Quote: iCuD
          Both those and those were cruel in relation to ordinary citizens who just wanted to live, and it did not matter who won.

          In the Civil War you can only be defeated by destroying the enemy with the most brutal terror, as it has always been everywhere! It doesn’t work out like in a normal war: he lost to the enemy, paid reparations and everyone went home, the dividing line went through families and with the end of the war and defeat, the losers will never accept, they will avenge and shit.

          Quote: iCuD
          Especially after the execution of the royal family.

          execution of citizens of the Romanov Social Revolutionaries - an insignificant episode.
          1. iCuD
            iCuD 25 October 2012 13: 55
            -1
            Totally agree with you!
            As for the execution of the royal family ... I don’t know, but it seems to me that since the civil war is primarily a war of ideologies, and after the execution of the imperial family, the whites were unable to provide a new workable ideology. Although, again, I don’t know how it really was ...
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 25 October 2012 14: 28
              +2
              Quote: iCuD
              this is primarily a war of ideologies, and after the execution of the imperial family, the whites were unable to provide a new workable ideology

              The whites were initially heterogeneous, one for the monarchy, the second for founding, the third finally grabbed God by the beard in the hope of becoming the king of the mountain, so no one of the leaders of the white movement had a clear ideological program, the people wondered - well, let's win and then what? distinctly, affordablely and only the Bolsheviks could promise more.
        2. Beck
          Beck 25 October 2012 14: 16
          -1
          iKuD.

          So read on. Belve could not give land to the peasants and did not promise. They could not give the plants to the workers and did not promise.

          The Reds did not intend to give, but they promised.
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 25 October 2012 15: 16
            +2
            Quote: Beck
            they could not give land to the peasants and did not promise. They could not give the plants to the workers and did not promise.

            The Reds did not intend to give, but they promised.

            they gave both land and factories, according to Lenin’s decree, they began to take and divide land between the community in 1917, the factories were nationalized, and often their former owners worked as managing directors for them. True, this led to kulakism and the collapse of production under the New Economic Policy.
            1. Beck
              Beck 25 October 2012 16: 29
              -1
              Quote: Karlsonn
              True, this led to kulakism and the collapse of production under the New Economic Policy.


              That's it. If they hadn’t dispossessed and curtailed the NEP. That Russia would now be instead of America.

              What are fists and NEP? This is Chinese-style socialism introduced by Deng-Xiao-Ping in 1980. And where is China now? And ahead of China. The second economics of the world.
              And Dan didn’t have to invent anything, he took the NEP for 20 years in Russia.
              Compare: China 1980 and 2012. Russia 1925 and 2012. In China, 32 years of normal development. In Russia there would be 87 years of development.
              And industrialization would take root in Russia in a natural way. And not at the expense of money from the sold crops of several years and which caused the country's hunger.
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 25 October 2012 17: 03
                +2
                Quote: Beck
                If they hadn’t dispossessed and curtailed the NEP. That Russia would now be instead of America.

                there would be no industrialization, our country would lose to the Germans and instead
                Quote: Beck
                socialism with Chinese characteristics introduced by Deng-Xiao-Ping in 1980

                most of us were not born, and those who were unlucky and born would be slaves to the Germans.

                Quote: Beck
                And industrialization would take root in Russia in a natural way.

                HOW???
                1. Beck
                  Beck 25 October 2012 17: 23
                  0
                  Quote: Karlsonn
                  there would be no industrialization, our country would lose to the Germans and instead


                  But I already answered. Wouldn’t the NEP be curtailed, industrialization would come naturally. And it is not known how the course of history would have gone if by 1941 the USSR were twice as economically stronger. Jozet and the German would not have attacked.

                  Quote: Karlsonn
                  HOW???


                  How would industrialization come? NEP. The laws of the private market, business initiative, the rational use of capital. Since what happened in China is Deng-Xiao-Ping. Which was preceded by the voluntarist leap of Mao-Tse-Tung in the years 60-70. When China came to first place in the world in pig iron smelting. Cast iron ingots melted in self-made furnaces were scattered throughout the villages. This is a clear difference between the socialist economy of Mao and NEP Dan.
                  1. Karlsonn
                    Karlsonn 25 October 2012 18: 47
                    +2
                    Quote: Beck
                    Wouldn’t the NEP be curtailed, industrialization would come naturally.

                    how many years does natural industrialization take? how many years did China take?
                    we had 11 years AND ONLY such radical methods, sometimes inhuman, could have time to go the way of industrializing the country during this time.

                    Quote: Beck
                    In the year 1941, the USSR would be twice as economically stronger. Jozet and the German would not have attacked.

                    well feel like I have a higher economic education, I’ll put this your thesis out of this bracket, it’s not correct, but it’s necessary to torment the clave for a long time. In any case, it would have been necessary to fight - the Versailles Peace, one of the reasons for the Second World War.

                    Quote: Beck
                    Which was preceded by the voluntarist leap of Mao-Tse-Tung in 60-70 years. When China came to first place in the world in pig iron smelting. Cast iron ingots melted in self-made furnaces were scattered throughout the villages.

                    again a mistake, read the memoirs of Mao's personal doctor. About cast iron - it's not funny, the picture was like this - all the metal was collected throughout the village, one knife per village remained and was melted into "cast iron" and was not lying around -
                    Quote: Beck
                    cast iron ingots
                    but don’t understand what.

                    Quote: Beck
                    NEP. The laws of the private market, business initiative, the rational use of capital. So what happened in China Deng Xiao Ping

                    as feel the economist will say it wouldn’t work out, there was no time and the situation in China in the 1950's was completely different than the situation in the USSR in the 1930's.
                    one example: China helped tremendously and in the enormous size of the USSR, and the USSR tried to survive in the ring of enemies.
                    1. Karlsonn
                      Karlsonn 25 October 2012 19: 22
                      0
                      Quote: Karlsonn
                      collected all the metal, one knife remained per village and was melted into "cast iron" and were not lying around

                      mistake:
                      - they collected all the metal and sent it to be melted into "cast iron", often only one knife remained in the village.
                      1. Beck
                        Beck 26 October 2012 09: 48
                        -1
                        Carson.

                        Noah saw a documentary chronicle of how ingots were melted in home-made furnaces below cast iron and they were not suitable anywhere on earth. It was the Chinese catch and overtake America.
      6. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 25 October 2012 13: 58
        +1
        We started right, then switched to normal nonsense ...
      7. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 25 October 2012 20: 53
        -1
        [Beck] "The victory of the Bolsheviks in the civil war was due to two factors." Not only those you have listed. 1. The Bolsheviks controlled the center. And the center is always stronger than the outskirts! Moscow is the main communications hub. 2. The central regions of Russia are still home to 100 million people. It was like that then. That is, the mobilization resource was incomparable with the whites. Well, and for a snack they had in their hands the Moscow and St. Petersburg industrial districts with all military warehouses, factories, etc. Without all this, they would hardly have resisted. I would not be so categorical about Budyonny. And Frunze, who is also And the commanders of the Great Patriotic War are basically also former sergeants and sergeants. Among the whites were also from the people. Denikin has a peasant father who has reached the 1st officer rank. General Petrov at Kolchak is a peasant. General Shkuro of the Cossacks. Etc
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 25 October 2012 23: 23
          +1
          Quote: Nagaibak
          due to two factors

          And you famously reduced the whole conglomerate to two factors, purely in Budyonov’s - with the Whack-Whack checker.
          the factors you mentioned certainly played an important role, but with regard to the center and the outskirts, in this case we consider the Far East, the first factor does not work;
          the second factor also does not work on DV;

          Quote: Nagaibak
          That is, the mobilization resource was not comparable with whites.

          You are mistaken, the mobilization resource in the Civil War is GENERAL, the country is one and then they play here, well, we will reduce to two factors:
          the first - more troops from those who managed to reach out to the people;
          second - do not forget that violent mobilization was used by both parties and there are known cases of nine or more times when a fighter changes sides.

          Quote: Nagaibak
          and for a snack in their hands were the Moscow and St. Petersburg industrial districts with all military depots, factories, etc.

          there was this, and again this is important, BUT regarding the Far East and Siberia, they dressed and armed white people: Kolchak - the USA, England and France, Semenov dressed and armed the Japanese several times, and HERs are red in windings in the taiga, with a monstrous lack of cartridges and everything the rest, since nominally the FER was a separate state.
          Quote: Nagaibak
          If all of this were unlikely, they would have kept

          they defeated in the Far East, no matter what the interventionists, and the white whites and the whites, it took more time, but they won, because the people and the historical right were on the side of the reds.

          Quote: Nagaibak
          Among the whites were also from the people. Denikin
          Father

          to compare the personnel officer and General Denikin and civil Frunze is not correct, especially despite the fact that Frunze won wink .
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 26 October 2012 19: 26
            0
            "And famously you have reduced the whole conglomerate to two factors, purely in Budenov's way - a checker whack-whack." Dear Karlsonn! About two factors - that was Beck's quote. And I added a couple more factors that are important in my opinion to its factors. 2. On the occasion of supply, Kolchak also did not have everything with this case in openwork! I saw a photo of "naked and barefoot" ordinary whites myself. And in their memoirs, whites complain about their allies about this.
            3.Karlsonn "to compare a career officer and general Denikin and civilian Frunze" - I did not compare. I gave as an example that there were people from the people and white and red, including among the command staff.
    3. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 25 October 2012 13: 08
      +4
      Quote: grizzlir
      As for the bourgeois youth of that time,

      Do not overestimate the number of bourgeois youth in the Far East, it is not the Urals and not the European part of Russia.

      Quote: grizzlir
      As for the bourgeois youth of that time,

      in the Far East, the number of bourgeois youth was insignificant.
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 25 October 2012 15: 18
        +3
        Much more significant was the massive transition of the Transbaikal Cossacks to the side of the Reds, whites repelled them with repression by robbery and cooperation with the interventionists.
  2. omsbon
    omsbon 25 October 2012 08: 54
    +9
    Russians vs Russians, what could be worse!
    Only a new civil war can be worse, and therefore any provocative scum calling for new revolutions, need to choke in the bud!
    1. str73
      str73 25 October 2012 09: 17
      +3
      Agree omsbon Another revolution, Russia simply can not stand it. The West will simply not give the people a second time to take power for the second time - not for this they have invested so much money in the collapse of the USSR, and the new Trotsky (Udaltsov) are not asleep! Therefore, power must be pulled from the inside, from below without buying into the bait rods of pseudo wrestlers for the rights of the people (Germans, bulk, etc.)
    2. Click-Klyak
      Click-Klyak 25 October 2012 09: 17
      +2
      Exactly. And what is needed so that there are no revolutions? Real competition, democracy, fair elections. Right?
      Or will we appoint Putin for life as president, and then his successor also for life?
      1. str73
        str73 25 October 2012 09: 46
        +7
        Real democracy as under Yeltsin? No thanks, enough for me!
        1. Click-Klyak
          Click-Klyak 25 October 2012 09: 55
          +3
          Quote: str73
          Real democracy as under Yeltsin? No thanks, enough for me!

          Yes, I would not call Yeltsin a great democrat.
          It was he who started the fraud with the elections. Remember how he flew Zyuganov?
          Putin is only the continuation of his teacher’s work.
          And the appointment of a successor is somehow undemocratic, don’t you?
          1. str73
            str73 25 October 2012 10: 21
            +7
            Unfortunately, Russia today is in such conditions that a tough host is needed again. This is not a whim, but a necessity. Otherwise, proteges of big capital, that is, the West, will come to power, and then you will feel what real democracy in the West is for plebeians. Patricians have them in the USA. Great Britain and several other countries.
            1. Astartes
              Astartes 25 October 2012 14: 19
              0
              Putin and co. They will not let a zealous owner come to power, he understands that he will squeeze the oligarchs, he will forbid buying yachts for "managers" to receive millions, he will hang Chubais on Red Square. Will put bureaucrats on a stake. the "tandem" cannot agree with this in any way, because it is quite likely that it will hang next to Chubais.
  3. str73
    str73 25 October 2012 09: 03
    +6
    The people turned away from the White Army for the reason that they did not see a clear goal for which the White Guards were fighting. I don’t remember who, whether Wrangel, or Denikin once said: “If I tell my officers that we are fighting for the restoration of the monarchy, then half of them (the officers) will scatter, and if I say that we are fighting for the republic, the second will scatter. half". Well, how can you successfully fight here? And who would go to such an army other than pathological killers? And the Bolsheviks had very specific goals: a single country, power for the people, land for the peasants, etc. The freaks headed by Trotsky (and all sorts of Zinovievs there) of course tarnished the reputation of the Bolsheviks, but Stalin corrected this, although not everything. Most importantly, he did not have time to tear the party away from power (he was killed for trying this) and over time it turned (the top) into a gathering of obese talkers and idlers who ruined the country.
    1. Click-Klyak
      Click-Klyak 25 October 2012 09: 22
      0
      Quote: str73
      But the Bolsheviks had very specific goals: a single country, power - to the people, land to the peasants, etc.

      Correctly. But all this turned out to be a lie.
      As for a single country, it is you who have bent something. It was Lenin who said that borders are generally a third-rate thing and regretted that the revolution was made in backward Russia, and not in Germany. If you read, Stalin supported it. Russia was a testing ground, fuel for the world revolution.
      Power went to the Bolsheviks, not the people. The peasants fell into collective farm slavery, the workers, in fact, also became slaves. If people knew how it would all end ....
      1. str73
        str73 25 October 2012 09: 43
        +2
        I don’t want to talk about Lenin at all, with all due respect to him, he was still more a fanatic than a statesman. And at the expense of Stalin. And who nevertheless came to the conclusion about the possibility of building socialism in one particular country? Stalin. He quickly studied and freed himself from dogma. But such fanatics as Lenin (Trotsky and Co.) dreaming of the fire of the world revolution, fought against Stalin and lost. At the expense of slavery of peasants and workers: temporarily during the period of the formation of the economy, harsh conditions were inevitable. But then Stalin increasingly began to speak out so that the power would become Soviet not in words but in deeds. For the first time in 1936. To which the party secretaries answered with mass terror, as if showing Stalin - you see how many more enemies !!!, and you are a democracy, secret ballot in the elections. Stalin then retreated. The second time he took up this issue after the war and was killed. His idea was that the power should belong to the councils, that is, to the elected (secret ballot) body, and not to the Communists infinitely - he saw this as a danger and looked into the water!
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 25 October 2012 13: 17
          +3
          Quote: str73
          I don’t want to talk about Lenin at all, with all due respect to him, he was still more a fanatic than a statesman

          myth making?
          Lenin was the only person, thinker and practitioner who won a victory of this magnitude, despite the fact that objectively in 1917 he and the party had practically no chances.

          Quote: str73
          But such fanatics as Lenin (Trotsky and Co.) dreaming of the fire of the world revolution, fought against Stalin and lost.

          how long ago and what exactly from Lenin did you read?
          1. str73
            str73 25 October 2012 13: 52
            +1
            I won’t lie - I haven’t read Lenin for a long time. But in many of his cases, it is clear that he was more a theorist than a practitioner. For example, the device of the USSR is his idea of ​​the possibility of the republics leaving the USSR - a time bomb. Not one of the most undemocratic countries has such a thing in the constitution! But Stalin was against, but could not defend his opinion.
            1. Brother Sarych
              Brother Sarych 25 October 2012 14: 08
              +2
              This thesis also managed to lure into a single country! The main thing was to unite, albeit by promising from three boxes - but only an idiot could let these promises come true ...
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 25 October 2012 14: 37
                +1
                Quote: Brother Sarich
                This thesis also managed to lure into a single country!

                and again absolutely true!
            2. Beck
              Beck 25 October 2012 14: 28
              -1
              Quote: str73
              this is his idea of ​​the possibility of republics leaving the USSR


              The USSR was built on the ruins of the Russian Empire. And all empires arose in the colonial era. And it’s somehow inappropriate for the Belgian to regret that the Congo has left Belgium. Or the Frenchman regret the loss of power over Algeria. Or the British want to return India the crown of the British Empire.
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 25 October 2012 15: 24
                +2
                Quote: Beck
                And all empires arose in the colonial era

                comparing the colonial expansion and politics of Europe and the policies of tsarist Russia is incorrect, the methods of expanding their territories in this case are CIVILIZATION different. Huge territories passed to Russia voluntarily, the only long-term wars against Russia were only in the Caucasus and the Chukchi did not break us weakly angry .
                and Europeans traded blankets with smallpox, slaves and tied sepoys to guns to shoot.
                1. Beck
                  Beck 25 October 2012 16: 54
                  -1
                  Carlson.

                  Colonialism is a form of oppression of one person by another. And this applies to all colonial powers. M this form had many variations from direct extermination to the sale of blankets.

                  England also had peace treaties with African tribes on voluntary accession to the mother country. A representative of England and a leader signed an agreement, and an English army regiment stood behind the Englishman. Try the leader, do not put your fingerprint on paper.

                  The Chukchi and Aleuts are more of a beating than a conquest. Representatives of Russian trade concessions subsequently transformed into a Russian-American company.
                  1. Karlsonn
                    Karlsonn 25 October 2012 19: 03
                    +4
                    Quote: Beck
                    England also had peace treaties with the tribes of Africa

                    What side is Russia here?

                    Quote: Beck
                    The Chukchi and Aleuts are more of a beating than a conquest.

                    and you are wrong again! The Chukchi hurricane in the North like no one else, as one who lived among them I will give an example, in their folklore such a thought sounds like a refrain - "Russians are those who make tobacco, vodka and carry iron, and come to kill everyone without mercy."
                    before the arrival of the Russian Chukchi, the most formidable fighters were driving the whole North, they literally did not count all the other small nations and nationalities as people, they had to kill animals for them, to rob sheep like we, the Chukchi as a result piled on us, there many victories passed from hand to hand, but in the end they surrendered in St. Petersburg and the Chukchi became part of Russia under fantastic conditions.
                    From our house to yours:
                    Chukchi warfare (mid-17th - early 20th centuries)

                    Release Date: 2003
                    Creator: A.K. Nefyodkin
                    Genre: Historical research, monograph
                    Publisher: St. Petersburg, "Petersburg Oriental Studies"
                    ISBN: 5-85803-244-3
                    Extension: PDF
                    Количество страниц: 352

                    Description:
                    This publication examines the various aspects of the Chukchi’s military affairs throughout the era known to us from written and other sources from the second half of the 17th century, when the Chukchi first encountered the Siberian Cossacks, and up to the beginning of the 20th century, when there were still blood clashes to sweep. Information is collected on neighboring peoples, Asian and American Eskimos, Koryaks and Russians, which makes it possible to better reveal the characteristics of the military affairs of the Chukchi. The book is the first work in historiography devoted to the military affairs of the Chukchi. It will be useful not only to ethnographers, but also to a wide range of readers interested in military affairs.

                    there is also a Goblin recommendation: hidden text The book contains an epigraph: dedicated to the heroic Chukchi people. To many this may seem a joke, because in the mass consciousness of the Chukchi - such an uncomplicated kid from the tundra, our Soviet Forrest Gump, harmless and fun.
                    The real Chukchi were fierce and unbridled, being perhaps the most cruel and warlike Siberian people. A severe lifestyle, serious physical preparation, exceptional malice and revenge are a complete set of the best human qualities. The Chukchi killed and slaughtered not only the neighboring Koryak-Yukagirs, but also Russian Cossacks drove along the tundra as lousy in the bath for many decades.
                    The book is my respect.
                    I highly recommend it.
                    1. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak 25 October 2012 20: 41
                      +2
                      Karlsonn "The Chukchi killed and slaughtered not only the neighboring Yukaghir Koryaks, but also the Russian Cossacks were driven across the tundra like lousy in the bathhouse for many decades." The Chukchi are practically the only people in Siberia who put up strong resistance to our Cossacks and Russia in general. I agree with your conclusions.
                      1. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 25 October 2012 23: 31
                        +1
                        Nagaibak
                        if the Caucasians eventually bent their mane, the Chukchi did not win, the troops, so as not to be defeated, were fought mainly from fortresses, and there were long-term sieges of these fortresses by the Chukchi.
                      2. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 26 October 2012 19: 31
                        0
                        Karlsonn "if the Caucasians finally bent their mane, then the Chukchi did not remain defeated" I agree. As far as I know, the relationship of the Chukchi with the local tsarist administration was peculiar. Some Chukotsky leader could ask the bailiff about the health of the sovereign emperor with the following phrase: "Well, how is my brother Kolya?"
                    2. Beck
                      Beck 26 October 2012 10: 05
                      -1
                      Carlson.

                      Peace treaties. This is an answer to yours that Russia had some other, "noble" motives for colonization. They say Russia has peace treaties on the voluntary annexation of almost all the peoples of the colony.

                      Quote: Karlsonn
                      before the Russian Chukchi arrived, the most formidable fighters were driving the whole North,


                      Well, they ruled the Chukchi in the north. But actually, what was the matter of worrying someone on the Valdai Upland, who is driving someone in Chukotka. In China, out of 100 nationalities, Han ruled everyone and why. What were the prerequisites for their colonization? It was only in the very essence of colonialism - in enslavement ..
                      1. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 26 October 2012 11: 31
                        +1
                        There is a significant difference between the Belgian colonization of a piece of Africa and the genocide of local tribes and the annexation of Kalmykia, in the first case a couple of hundreds of thousands of people evaporated in a couple of decades, and Belgium appropriated their national wealth, in the second, the local Kalmyk elite were part of the Russian elite automatically. there was mutual trade, Kalmyks from the Middle Ages automatically fell into the eighteenth century (schools, hospitals, etc. ...), as a result, Kalmyks stormed Paris, and the Congo population lived in a tribal way until White's arrival, after it only got worse.
                        Do you seriously think that Kalmykia was colonized?
                      2. Beck
                        Beck 26 October 2012 12: 32
                        -1
                        Carlson.

                        The essence of colonization is enslavement. And this enslavement takes various forms from mild to cruel, but the essence remains.

                        To read Russian sources, so the era of colonialism did not affect Russia at all. And there was only a pioneering and pioneering period in the history of Russia. He was a pioneer for the geographical societies of Russia and Europe. Pioneer for the colonial appetites of the Russian Empire. As if all the lands beyond the Urals were deserted.

                        Kalmykia. I do not know. Whether Kalmyks met with transporters a new dawn of mankind - capitalism and whether they cursed damned feudolism. I don’t know. I will say about Kazakhstan. The Khan of the Younger Zhuz Abulkhair, wishing to have power over all of Kazakhstan, signed an agreement on voluntary entry into the Russian Empire, in the hope of taking power into his own hands with the Russian troops. For such a betrayal, Abulkhair was killed by Sultan Barak. But the process has begun.
                        Subsequently, numerous uprisings took place which, in Russian historiography, are not officially covered. The largest under the leadership of Khan Kenesary.

                        But, colonialism is an inevitable era. And in order to effectively, it was to their advantage to manage the colony and it was necessary to build cities, hospitals, schools. These are the costs of colonial administration which were then reimbursed handsomely. During the times of the USSR, which arose on the ruins of the Russian Empire, the slogans of brotherhood and equality were raised.

                        I realize that if there had been no colonization, Kazakhstan would have been somewhere at the level of Mongolia. I realize that my people joined the world culture through the Russian language. I realize that my people came to today's civilization through the Russian prism of gaze. And I am aware that there was a colonization. But many Russians deny the colonial era at all. And if recognized, then only in the European version. I call my segment of colonialism only pioneering and only pioneering. Well, then turn away from your story. It was? - It was. Is this a past era? - The past. This is history? - Story.

                        Are we living today? - Of course, the present.
                      3. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 26 October 2012 16: 18
                        +1
                        Quote: Beck
                        The essence of colonization is enslavement

                        Did the Kazakhs become slaves of the Russians?

                        Quote: Beck
                        But, colonialism is an inevitable era.


                        Quote: Beck
                        I realize that if there had been no colonization, Kazakhstan would have been somewhere at the level of Mongolia.


                        You convinced me, I agree that the term colonization is more correct in relation to Kazakhstan.

                        Quote: Beck
                        To read Russian sources, so the era of colonialism did not affect Russia at all.

                        Do not read such fools, we have others:
                        Essays on the history of the colonization of the North, c. 1, P., 1922; Lubavsky M. Colonization, Formation of the main state territory of the Great Russian nationality, L., 1929; Tikhomirov M.N., Russia in the XVI century, M., 1962; Shunkov V.I., Essays on the history of the colonization of Siberia in the 17th - early 18th centuries, M. — L., 1946; Fadeev A. V., Essays on the economic development of the steppe Ciscaucasia in the pre-reform period, M., 1957; Kabuzan V. M., Changes in the distribution of the population of Russia in the XVIII - first half of the XIX centuries. (Based on materials of revisions), M., 1971.
                      4. Beck
                        Beck 26 October 2012 16: 48
                        0
                        Carlson.

                        Do not find fault with the words, I won’t believe that you did not understand the meaning of the first paragraph.

                        Now you said the colonization was. And that the sky has fallen? That you and I have become worse off towards each other. What happened? But nothing happened. We just cantanted a historical fact. And hurray patriots tear their throats because of this.

                        I'm sure you would stop talking to me if I behaved like a jingoistic patriot. For example, I presented you with a presentation for the defeat of my ancestors from your ancestors in the Kulikovo field.

                        I have written more than once. We with Russians in one state live more than five hundred years. 300 years in the Golden Horde, 175 years in the Russian Empire, 74 years in the USSR. And the history of our relationships is saturated. But that is history, we live in the present.
                      5. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 27 October 2012 02: 11
                        0
                        You understood me wrong.
            3. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 25 October 2012 14: 36
              +3
              Quote: str73
              But in many of his cases, it is clear that he was more a theorist than a practitioner.

              just history proved that he was the best practitioner in the 20 century.

              Quote: str73
              this is his idea of ​​the possibility of republics leaving the USSR

              I agree. that mistakes were made, sometimes monstrous, but the construction of such a state was terra incognita and the Bolsheviks were pioneers, and had to make huge compromises.
              It was somewhat easier for Stalin, he was already pushing off from something, Lenin developed the theory and embodied it himself, mistakes are inevitable here - the NEP, the Brest Peace steps contrary to communist theory, but the history and course of events led to the fact that you did not accept them then the communists would lose.
          2. 8 company
            8 company 25 October 2012 14: 55
            0
            Quote: Karlsonn
            how long ago and what exactly from Lenin did you read?


            Here is an interesting work by Lenin on the topic:

            Lenin's idea of ​​turning the imperialist war into a civil war was formulated in his work Socialism and War, written in July-August 1915, and sounded like this: "The war, undoubtedly, gave rise to the most severe crisis and exacerbated the misery of the masses. The reactionary nature of this war, the shameless lies of the bourgeoisie of all countries, covering up their predatory goals with" national "ideology - all this on the basis of an objectively revolutionary situation inevitably creates revolutionary sentiments among the masses Our duty is to help realize these sentiments, deepen and formalize them. This task is correctly expressed only by the slogan of turning the imperialist war into a civil war, and any consistently class struggle during a war, any seriously pursued tactics of mass action inevitably leads to this. "
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 25 October 2012 15: 36
              +1
              and what's wrong? the situation in 1915 is one thing, but the situation in 1918 and the Brest peace concluded by the Bolsheviks with the Germans is different.
    2. FIMUK
      FIMUK 25 October 2012 11: 46
      -4
      Just do not forget that it was Trotsky who created the red army wink
      Terrom forced former officers to lead and lead her.
      And so, absolutely all red
      1. str73
        str73 25 October 2012 12: 31
        +4
        Initially, tsarist officers were divided into approximately equal 3 parts. The first went to the white army, the second to the red, the third preferred not to interfere in anything. At the expense of terror he made the Red Army come and command - this is nonsense. Many chose to fight on the side of the Reds consciously. But when they already fought in the Red Army, Trotsky showed himself in all its glory. And with his fanaticism and cruelty he turned many away from himself and from the Red Army. One word - vrazhin!
        1. Brother Sarych
          Brother Sarych 25 October 2012 14: 09
          +1
          That's right ...
        2. FIMUK
          FIMUK 25 October 2012 15: 44
          -7
          You certainly know better))
          But somehow historians disagree about Trotsky’s role in the creation of the Red Army, and indeed about his role in that policy and deeds.

          You "Stalinists" are very fond of the phrase the time was such it was impossible otherwise ... here's an example. what else you can not!
          And grandfather Stalin called this hostility to account for the atrocities against the Russian, if you wish the Soviet people. laughing

          The fact remains, the enemies were all red without exception.
          And then of them more who do not play a lesser role.
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 25 October 2012 17: 13
            +2
            Quote: FIMUK
            The fact remains, the enemies were all red without exception.

            there is only one enemy - you.
            on the avatar, what is written? Clarify, otherwise it is very vague.
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 25 October 2012 19: 23
              0
              so what is written there, all the same?
              1. DIMS
                DIMS 25 October 2012 19: 28
                +3
                This is a sleeve tape. The name of one of the SS divisions.

                Although not, this is the tape regiment and then the Brandenburg Division
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 25 October 2012 19: 46
                  +1
                  Dim hello is hard to see, but in my opinion the patch of the Flanders SS corps.

                  Exactly Dim, established in 1944.
                  1. DIMS
                    DIMS 25 October 2012 19: 47
                    0
                    No, Brandenburg. Save the drawing to the computer and see

                    Welcome.
                    1. Karlsonn
                      Karlsonn 25 October 2012 23: 36
                      +1
                      DIMS, Alex 241 hi
                      saying that:
                      Quote: Karlsonn
                      there is only one enemy - you

                      I had precisely this in mind, a person who pointedly put on such a distinctive sign and affirmed:

                      Quote: FIMUK
                      The fact remains, the enemies were all red without exception.

                      in the release of the victory of the Reds in Civilian or Troll or the enemy.
                      1. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 25 October 2012 23: 40
                        +1
                        I don’t understand what is in the head of such people? To fasten such a patch and break into such a site !!!!!!!!!
          2. Was mammoth
            Was mammoth 26 October 2012 00: 35
            +1
            Do fascists like other sites?
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 26 October 2012 00: 38
              +2
              I don’t know what sites they have, just in our country ............. with such symbolism.
            2. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 26 October 2012 11: 33
              +1
              these Untermenschs are quite active, and up to masochism, so they climb wherever they reach.
      2. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 25 October 2012 17: 09
        +1
        Quote: FIMUK
        Terrom forced former officers to lead and lead her.

        once again - HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE GENERALS OF THE GENERAL STAFF OF THE IMPERIAL ARMY HAVE BEEN IN THE HOUSING OF THE GENERAL STAFF OF THE WORKING-PEASANT RED ARMY (RKKA) in the years from 1918 to 1920.
        This number does not include generals who held other posts in the Red Army. Most of the 185 were voluntarily serving in the Red Army, and only six were mobilized.
        The author of the source cites numerous documents on which he compiled his lists, which eliminates doubts about their fidelity.
        In addition to the officers of the General Staff, who made up the Soviet General Staff, the author provides lists of officers by arms and specialties not included in the Soviet General Staff.
        Among them were also many officers in the ranks of the generals. Without giving their surname, we indicate their number:
        -
        Chin in the tsarist army colonels generals lieutenant colonels
        Cavalrymen 10 15 5
        Line artillerymen 19 22 11
        Military engineers 11 10 10
        Military pilots 4 4
        Military railway workers 2 6 -
        Armored forces 1 2 4
        Shooting specialists 2 2 -
        Border guards 4 6 4
        Artillery engineers 23 9 3
        Administrative service 9 16 7
        Quartermaster department 5 13 1
        Military educational department 13 12 1
        TOTAL 99 117 50
        If you add to the previous number of officers in the rank of general in the General Staff of the Red Army 185, the figure in the above table is 99, the total number of tsarist generals in the Soviet service will be 284 people.
        A.G. Kavtoradze "Military Specialists in the Service of the Republic of Soviets of 1917-1920." USSR Academy of Sciences, 1988
        1. FIMUK
          FIMUK 29 October 2012 14: 54
          -1
          The tape says BRANDENBURG.
          .....
          Red bastards will love- for me the 100th fact is how for you Stalin's father and mother are native in one person.
          Who is interested in the continuation of the topic, you can read the case of Vesna- "The organizer of the falsified case" Vesna "was the figure of the OGPU Israel Moiseevich Leplevsky. With the support of the deputy chairman of the OGPU Yagoda, he inflated the scale of" Spring "" .....

          About officers in the Red Army, Kraskomma and their relationship is interestingly written in the works of S.T. Minakov, Zdanovich and even if interested, you can google.
  4. Maple
    Maple 25 October 2012 09: 57
    +1
    Poets come up with revolutions, fanatics make, and villains use it.

    ps The revolution devours its children.
  5. mar.tira
    mar.tira 25 October 2012 09: 59
    +1
    The article is accounting statistics. Everything is decorously noble. Titles, belonging to anyone else. Full names of the commanders.Uspehi, defeat.As if not with us. But in reality it is terrible blood, destruction and massacre of our people. With the help of "friends" of Russia. Who are constantly trying to repeat this "experience", replacing anger with mercy, manipulating the public, and the policy of our supreme power.
  6. 8 company
    8 company 25 October 2012 10: 20
    -2
    The civil war is a huge tragedy for our people, it was from it that they became divided, torn apart in a living way, bought for cheap populist slogans like "land to the peasants." Who knew that the peasants would be driven into a new serfdom and they would be forced to steal grain from the collective farm fields in order to somehow feed their children.
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 25 October 2012 13: 18
      +5
      Quote: Company 8
      Who knew that the peasants would be driven into new serfdom and they would be forced to steal grain from collective farm fields in order to somehow feed the children.

      Nonsense!
      1. 8 company
        8 company 25 October 2012 15: 02
        -1
        Quote: Karlsonn
        Nonsense!


        Yeah, this is such "nonsense":
        “The Three Spikelets Law” (decree “7-8”) - the name of the Decree of the Central Executive Committee and Council of People's Commissars of the USSR of August 7, 1932 “On the Protection of Property of State Enterprises, Collective Farms and Cooperation and the Strengthening of Public (Socialist) Property” adopted in historical journalism at the initiative of I.V. Stalin.
        For the theft of collective farm and cooperative property, theft of goods on railway and water transport, the law provided for the execution with confiscation of property, which, under extenuating circumstances, could be replaced by imprisonment for a period of at least 10 years with confiscation of property. As "a measure of judicial repression in cases of protecting collective farms and collective farmers from violence and threats from" kulak elements, "imprisonment for a term of 5 to 10 years was provided. Those convicted under this law were not subject to amnesty.
        The law was often applied in cases that did not represent any social danger. For example, it received the name "law of spikelets" because it was condemned by peasants (from children to the elderly) who were engaged in cutting (often overnight) unripe ears of grain on a collective or state farm field and appropriating them, or collecting spikelets left on field after harvesting. Due to the fact that often people cut their ears with ordinary scissors they called them “strigunami”. It is worth recalling that the summer of 1932 was the beginning of the monstrous famine of 1932-1933, when at least 7 million peasants died from Ukraine to Kazakhstan. Citizens at this time received a solid ration.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 25 October 2012 15: 49
          +2
          Quote: Company 8
          Yeah, this is such "nonsense":
          The Three Spikelets Act

          What were the reasons why this draconian law was passed? what do you know about problems in s.kh. on that moment? the number of fists? the number of convicted of theft from collective farms and state farms? Let me remind you that before that, grains were stolen by deliveries of small terms because the peasants were considered one of the two revolutionary classes.

          Quote: Company 8
          As a "measure of judicial repression in cases of protecting collective farms and collective farmers from violence and threats from" kulak elements "imprisonment for a term of 5 to 10 years was provided.

          again, what are the reasons for taking such repressive measures?

          Quote: Company 8
          For example, it received the name "law of spikelets" because it was condemned by peasants (from children to the elderly) who were engaged in cutting (often overnight) unripe ears of grain on a collective or state farm field and appropriating them, or collecting spikelets left on field after harvesting.

          The West solved this problem by pauperization, this is when the peasants were forcibly driven out of the land, where after grazing sheep and so on. etc., the law on vagrancy was passed, where peasants were hanged for vagrancy and thus the peasants were driven into slaves by manufactories, factories and factories.
          At the same time, Europeans bought grain from tsarist Russia, which traded it even in the years of crop failure and mass deaths from starvation (oil was not in demand then).
          In all countries of the world, industrialization was due to the modernization of agriculture and everywhere with enormous sacrifices, but only with us they finger at a bloody wound, the British, like the Germans, neither repent nor obscure their history, as they were not going to and are not going to.
          1. 8 company
            8 company 25 October 2012 16: 03
            -5
            Quote: Karlsonn
            again, what are the reasons for taking such repressive measures?


            People had nothing to eat, so they cut the spikelets. Will this answer suit you?

            Quote: Karlsonn
            In all countries of the world, industrialization was due to the modernization of agriculture and everywhere with enormous sacrifices, but only with us they finger at a bloody wound, the British, like the Germans, neither repent nor obscure their history, as they were not going to and are not going to.


            Let Dzhugashvili's fans repent for their leader, they pray for him. Normal people just want to know the real history of their people, and not adorned with portraits of Caucasian abreks and kumach slogans like "Workers of all countries, unite into one big collective farm!"
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 25 October 2012 17: 20
              +3
              Quote: Company 8
              People had nothing to eat, so they cut the spikelets. Will this answer suit you?

              Do not go away from the answer! Spikelets began to collect after the law.
              Once again - what are the reasons for adopting this law?
              And please be kind enough to answer at least one question from the whole list.

              Quote: Company 8
              Let the fans of Dzhugashvili repent for their leader, they pray for him.

              We are not fans, but people who honor their ancestors.
              And those struck in the head with a liberal fake can believe in everything they want. Svanidze-Posner-Rezun flag in hand and forward to the closet.
              1. 8 company
                8 company 25 October 2012 17: 31
                -1
                Quote: Karlsonn
                Do not go away from the answer! Spikelets began to collect after the law.


                That is, as soon as the law was passed, the peasants suddenly lost their food and they ran to the collective farm fields? Try not to write at least frank nonsense, although, on the other hand, show me a fan of Dzhugashvili, who is distinguished by sanity and writes logical posts ...

                Quote: Karlsonn
                We are not fans, but people who honor their ancestors.


                Who doubted that your ancestor was Joseph Dzhugashvili? I personally have never doubted.
                1. Karlsonn
                  Karlsonn 25 October 2012 19: 11
                  +4
                  Quote: Company 8
                  as soon as the law was passed, the peasants suddenly lost food and they ran to the collective farm fields?

                  that is, you will not answer the question about the reasons for the adoption of this law?
                  to other questions too?
                  what's the point of talking? especially if you constantly distort and insult?
                  1. DIMS
                    DIMS 25 October 2012 19: 19
                    -1
                    Do you yourself know the reason for the appearance of this decree in 1932? Why did the Soviet state become much more loyal to stealing from a private person than to stealing from itself?
                    1. dmb
                      dmb 25 October 2012 20: 38
                      +3
                      Believe me, and will not answer. I naively recently also tried to hold a discussion with Mr. 8th Company, but very soon I realized that the truth interests him least of all. he uses rather primitive methods, and in the case of specifics, he immediately switches to cliches such as "bloody Stalinist regime" or "ghouls-Bolsheviks." He and his friends are least of all concerned about the personality of Lenin or Stalin, and they throw mud at them not at all for the sake of "revenge for the atrocities," but fulfilling the order of those who are currently acting. After all, they say. Look how bad life was for ALL people then, and how WELL they live now. And that after 70 years of bloody power in the era of happiness, we have about 3 million homeless children, that there are no world-class universities left in the country, and we mainly produce plastic bags, this is of course trifles. Ask these gentlemen what they offer in return for socialism, they will not be able to formulate. The only argument like: "Well, like in China" completely forgetting that the bulk of the Chinese still live much worse than we did in the 80s. But they do expect that they do not get into the bulk. They consider themselves elite. Even the elite of the city dump, but the elite.
                      1. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 26 October 2012 00: 10
                        0
                        dmb
                        I like to confront such elite members with the fact that now, even having thrown off Central Asia and the Baltic states, we are in prison more than at the peak of Stalin’s repressions, and how it turned out that with freedom and democracy there are more prisoners than with totalitarianism - you won’t get any.
                      2. Beck
                        Beck 26 October 2012 10: 52
                        0
                        Carlson.

                        I do not know the statistics. But even if it is. That you said A, do not say B, you indicate what people are sitting for. Currently, the vast majority of prisoners are in violation of the criminal code. At the age of 30, probably half of the people sat for dissent and for no reason at all.
                      3. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 26 October 2012 11: 41
                        +1
                        Beck
                        half? Facts in the studio.
                        The state, political, economic system of the country is characterized by a very good penitentiary system, if under totalitarianism there was less jail than democratic freedom, it means that people have less reasons to break the law under totalitarianism, the factor of fear of punishment is certainly important, with totalitarianism it is more, but here totalitarianism wins - the system in which the law is better observed is better.
                        According to what article a person sits, it doesn’t matter; it is important how many and under what state system people break the law.
                    2. Karlsonn
                      Karlsonn 26 October 2012 00: 03
                      +1
                      if the question is for me, then S. Kara-Murza will answer me better in his book "Soviet Civilization", Chapter 10. The Soviet State and Law in the Period of Totalitarianism.
                      Quote: DIMS
                      Why did the Soviet state become much more loyal to stealing from a private person than to stealing from itself?

                      a crime against a person was considered a class inheritance from damned tsarism, and a crime against the state was equated with a crime against the whole people, hence the term “enemy of the people,” by the way, the French came up with it during their revolution.
                      In general, just don’t laugh, the criminal law of 30's was very soft, so the ardent liberoids are worn with a couple of articles of the Criminal Code, because they have no more examples, but I have wink :
                      - * In February 1931, criminal liability was established for damage or breakdown of tractors and agricultural machines belonging to collective farms, state farms and MTS. If the damage was caused by neglect, the punishment was forced labor for up to six months. For the same repeated or involving major damage actions - imprisonment for up to three years.

                      In most cases, they served time at the place of work, that is, they lived and worked as before, only part of the salary was kept for the duration of the term and the person was always on a pencil.

                      - On August 10, the Decree “On criminal liability for petty theft at work and for hooliganism” was issued, according to which petty theft was punished with imprisonment for one year. Criminal liability has been established from 12 years of age for serious crimes (murder, violence and mutilation). The same group included the actions of minors, which could cause the train to crash. For all other crimes, criminal liability came from 14 years (the death penalty was not applied to minors). The criminal prosecution of involving minors to participate in crimes, forcing them to engage in prostitution, speculation, and poverty.
                      1. 8 company
                        8 company 26 October 2012 09: 49
                        -2
                        Quote: Karlsonn
                        In general, just do not laugh the criminal law of the 30s was very soft


                        I would have laughed, but the question is tragic for the Russian people. I repeat exclusively for those on an armored train:
                        The Three Spikelets Law "(decree" 7-8 ") - the name adopted by historical journalism of the Decree of the CEC and the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR of August 7, 1932" On the Protection of Property of State Enterprises, Collective Farms and Cooperation and the Strengthening of Public (Socialist) Property ", adopted by initiative of I.V. Stalin.
                        For the theft of collective and cooperative property, theft of goods on rail and water transport, the law provided for the shooting with confiscation of property, which under extenuating circumstances could be replaced by imprisonment for a term of at least 10 years with confiscation of property


                        And there was also the famous 58th article, according to which entire families were destroyed: to the husband - execution, to the wife - "ten" of the camp, children in an orphanage. Article 58 of the 1922 Criminal Code of the RSFSR entered into force on February 25, 1927 to counter counter-revolutionary activities. From 1921 to 1953, 58 people were convicted under Article 3 and the corresponding articles in the criminal legislation of other republics.

                        Although to whom do I explain this? fool
                      2. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 26 October 2012 11: 46
                        +1
                        As already mentioned, talking with you that the sand on the beach from place to place, is boring and useless. You do not answer questions, ignore arguments, constantly distort and insult your opponent.
                        Quote: Company 8
                        Although to whom do I explain this?

                        I don’t have to explain anything to me anymore, your arguments are boring, such as you have been singing the same song for 30 years, and if you look closely, it’s boring and not interesting from the Khrushchev’s report.
                  2. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 26 October 2012 19: 40
                    +1
                    Karlsonn "especially if you constantly twist and insult you? A man with the face of Kasyanov called you Stalin? It's nothing - me Mr. Kaganovich! He remains proud of this! True, he has a confusion in his head and
                    he forgot the simple Russian word comrade !!! Ha ha !!!
  7. rexby63
    rexby63 25 October 2012 10: 43
    +2
    Thank you, Alexander, for covering this period of the Civil War. For some reason, in Soviet times, it was not particularly described and advertised. In contrast to the hostilities in the European part of Russia. In addition to the "assault nights of Spassk, Volochaev's days" and the film "Heart of Bonivur", the average citizen of the USSR could vaguely recall the combination of "Lazo" and "locomotive furnace". Although to me, even in early childhood, this method of execution seemed not entirely "convenient" for the executioners. "Oh, these fairy tales, oh, these storytellers." And the period of the Civil War described by you is not so inglorious for the victors.
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 25 October 2012 14: 10
      +3
      And how did you manage to not notice those events? Just amazing ...
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 25 October 2012 14: 47
        +3
        Quote: Brother Sarich
        And how did you manage to not notice those events?

        the man simply was not interested in the history of his country, and now he found someone to blame for this - the damned komunyaki did not let go and forbade!

        favorite book of childhood - S.N. Shishkin. "Civil War in the Far East"
        1. rexby63
          rexby63 25 October 2012 20: 52
          0
          You are a fan of D.Ch. Harris is just like brothers
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 26 October 2012 00: 15
            +1
            and you suddenly decided to take the liberty of saying stupid things on behalf of millions:
            Quote: rexby63
            In contrast to the hostilities in the European part of Russia. In addition to the "assault nights of Spassk, Volochaev's days" and the film "Heart of Bonivur", the average citizen of the USSR could vaguely recall the combination of "Lazo" and "locomotive furnace".


            Monomakh's hat does not press?
            If you don’t know something, or don’t see a gopher, then you don’t need to sign for everyone.
            1. rexby63
              rexby63 26 October 2012 22: 38
              0
              Doesn't press. And I don't sign for everyone. There are simply facts. And they are like that. I take a textbook on the history of the USSR, edited by Pankratova, 1952. 74 pages of the Far East are devoted to the Civil War, of these 74 pages - 4, 5 pages. Well, I think, okay, Pankratova is still that "historian", we need to find something fresher. History of the USSR as edited by Artemov for university students 1982 For this historian, the Civil War ended with the defeat of Wrangel. He devoted half a page to events in the Far East. What is this! I decided to turn to cinema, although this is not a science, it is generally not clear what, but still. 125 films were made about the Civil War under Soviet rule, no more than 10 about the Far East period. What is in fiction? Are there any analogues to "Quiet Don", "How the Steel Was Tempered", "Walking Through the Torment"? "Mayhem"? Do not make me laugh. Now according to the memoir literature - "The Murder of the Royal Family and Members of the House of Romanov in the Urals" by M.K.Diterikhs. and "Essays on the Russian Troubles" by AI Denikin. Feel the difference, and then blame it for incompetence
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 27 October 2012 01: 14
                0
                Dear, take the book of Shishkin, nothing was deleted there from the first edition - 1951 of the year.
                if you don’t know something, ask.
                1. rexby63
                  rexby63 27 October 2012 09: 03
                  0
                  I will definitely read it, but that's not the point. The scale of hostilities and the intensity of the social passions of the Civil War in the Far East was no lower than in the west, but they were covered much as already. The same work by S.N. Shishkin has not been reprinted since 1957, in my opinion, but what was the circulation? Here's something. And you are in vain talking about "Monomakh's hat". After the start of our discussion with you, I specifically asked the class teacher of my youngest son (she is a historian): does she know about the Nikolaev tragedy or about the feat of the cadets of the Divoschol near Monastyryshche. Agree, the events are significant for history, but she was puzzled and I realized that my son will have a hard time in the second quarter
      2. rexby63
        rexby63 25 October 2012 20: 41
        0
        Who is it for us?
  8. Poppy
    Poppy 25 October 2012 10: 52
    +1
    after the Second World War it’s ridiculous, of course, to read such quantities — 15 thousand people, the whole army, barely pulls on the division
    therefore, they fought focally, only in settlements by raids.
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 25 October 2012 13: 21
      +1
      Quote: Poppy
      funny of course read such quantities

      laugh if hunting ...
      You about the general situation and about the course of the war in the Far East, what do you actually know?
      population before revolution?
      the numerical composition of white, red and interventionists?
      Harvested in the war years?
  9. savoj
    savoj 25 October 2012 11: 05
    -3
    Everything can be right and as it was, but ...
    The Yeltsin people supported, not the CPSU ..... if this is not true, then everything was not true either.
    1. str73
      str73 25 October 2012 13: 00
      +3
      The CPSU (top) at that time was a bunch of obese, thieving talkers and loafers. The people definitely did not go for such and never will. The power-hungry and dumb Yeltsin played on this (not of course, he played the role allotted to him by the West - the role of a shirt-guy who cares for people). And in the guise of the struggle between Yeltsin and the CPSU, the West, using the same Yeltsin’s hands, dismantled socialism in the USSR, and they simply threw people!
  10. savoj
    savoj 25 October 2012 14: 52
    -1
    Come on ...... you seriously think that one person can destroy a state with nuclear weapons ...... or even a thousand people.
    What kind of state was that one Kremlin stole everything that had been created for decades ....... where are these millions of people who took to the square and protested.
    1. Astartes
      Astartes 25 October 2012 15: 44
      0
      And how old were you in the 90s ?? If over 18 why didn’t they take to the streets to defend the USSR ??
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 25 October 2012 17: 24
        +1
        Astartes
        welcome hi You still ask him how the 24 000 Bolsheviks held the Revolution and won the Civil.
      2. str73
        str73 26 October 2012 14: 22
        +1
        If the question is addressed to me, then I was 18 years old and honestly I did not understand what was happening. Overwhelmed brains thoroughly. Even the older and wiser only shook their heads and did not understand anything!
    2. str73
      str73 26 October 2012 14: 18
      0
      One person, of course not! But with the help of foreign friends such as the Rend Carporeysh, local traitors at the top of the CPSU - easily!
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 26 October 2012 16: 20
        0
        here we converge in our views drinks
  11. Wertynskiy
    Wertynskiy 25 October 2012 17: 03
    +2
    The article liked the moment about negotiations with Japan on the issue of Northern Sakhalin. Although the government was young and heterogeneous, and the situation was difficult, but on the issue of giving back part of Sakhalin, the position was iron and, most importantly, LITERATURE !!!
    Our rulers would be so. And then, as a well-known substance in the hole!
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 25 October 2012 19: 16
      +3
      Wertynskiy
      welcome hi , there was an article about intervention in the Far East the other day ago, I recommend it.
      Quote: Wertynskiy
      but on the issue of the return of part of Sakhalin

      everything was much cooler Semenov and Kolchak handed out to the Japanese and Amers the land, mines, mines, etc. etc. the entire Far East and Siberia on the maps, the Japanese and Amers have already divided among themselves, but ours threw them out soldier
      1. grizzlir
        grizzlir 25 October 2012 19: 19
        +2
        Karlsonn, less often with komentami. I do not have time to put pluses for your correctly stated thoughts.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 26 October 2012 00: 17
          +2
          took note soldier
      2. Volkhov
        Volkhov 25 October 2012 23: 16
        0
        Quote: Karlsonn
        but ours threw them out

        It was basically impossible to throw the Japanese out of Northern Sakhalin, because there was no fleet, and Sakhalin was an island. The Americans insisted on leaving the Japanese, who organized and paid for the revolution, created Soviet power and were not going to share the booty. In the 30s, the Japanese in China were bombed together by the Americans and the Red Army, America carried out the industrialization of the USSR, was an ally in World War II, and to this day we are in the same system with them on the sidelines. Now the United States openly opposes Syria in words, but almost all weapons are from the "rebels" from the Russian Federation, as well as instructors from the army and from the Caucasus.
        This is one genocidal system and we are "entrusted" with the dirtiest work. You should not rejoice at the expulsion of a weak interventionist by a stronger one, for the Russians this is a defeat.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 26 October 2012 11: 48
          +1
          Volkhov,
          How long have you arrived in our reality?
  12. zadotov
    zadotov 25 October 2012 18: 35
    -2
    it is good that Stalin shot the "great" civilian commanders "the coward-Dybenko, the Butcher-Yakir, propaganda
    That dirty hostage-Tukhachevsky, the murderer and liar Blucher and others, and even for an encore breaking the head of the main bloodsucker and oppressor of workers and peasants Trotsky, who dreamed of creating labor armies of slaves. How did they win? Yes, they drowned their people in blood - first Lenin gave bread pieces to Russia, which gave him money for the revolution, the agonizing German Empire, then on February 23, 1918, the red army was born in torment when the "great red commander" Dybenko scrambled through the floor of Russia with fright and a bloody massacre began his people about which to talk for a long time
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 25 October 2012 19: 31
      +3
      started for health, finished for peace.

      Quote:
      Lenin gave bread slices of Russia, which gave him money for the revolution, agonizing the German Empire

      a new version?
      is a bread slice Ukraine? Well, how could Lenin give Ukraine Ukraine to Germany if the UPR led by Grushevsky signed a peace with Germany before the RSFSR? and the UNR itself agreed to pay reparations, and the Bolsheviks signed the peace on terms - NO PAYMENT!
  13. polly
    polly 25 October 2012 20: 12
    +5
    Thanks to the author for the article! And since I come from the very city about which the song is composed "... and will remain like in a fairy tale, like the alluring lights, stormy nights of Spassk, Volochaev's days ...", thank you twice for the detailed historical description of those tragic events. Parents told a lot about the atrocities of the Whites and the Japanese, and the graves of the mass tortured and shot Red Army soldiers in Spassk were many. The battles for the city were fierce: three days and two nights of bloodshed, Red Army men and partisans went to bayonet 2-3 times, but they drove the accursed all the way to Vladivostok!
    Now, however, pseudo-historians are trying to rewrite this matter (in the spirit of the times, of course), they say, and the losses were five times less, and the assault, in fact, was not ... However, God is their judge! And these trenches are near the river Santahazy (the fortified area was powerful), in the 60s were not yet overgrown. We climbed children there, it was terribly interesting to me. My father, by the way, still struck the face with a small shard in the shelling of the cement plant, the boy was 12 years old, he didn’t want to sit and hide next to his mother ...
  14. Kshatriy
    Kshatriy 25 October 2012 22: 16
    -2
    Yes, that’s exactly how it was ..... how short the human memory is .... And Mr. Tukhachevsky, who poisoned the Russian people in the Tambov province with gas, is no longer a civil war ???? (recall what year it was ??? For how many days the city of Mtsensk was given for plunder to the Chinese ???) ... You indicated a strange year about the end of the civil war .... Read Yaroslav Hasek ... in his stories he beautifully described how the Communists internationalists came off. ... (in what year?) The civil war in Russia has not yet ended .... because the state power in our country is not legal, what did the sailor iron ore say, dispersing the Constituent Assembly ?????
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 26 October 2012 00: 31
      +2
      Tell you in detail about the white terror, which the Bolsheviks answered in red?
      Can you imagine what flogging is with ramrods, rifles?
      Tell about the atrocities of the interventionists?
      About the pogroms?
      The atrocities of Shkuro and Kolchak?
      Here, for a long time, everyone agreed with the idea that there is no more severe form of war than the Civil War and that hanging all dogs on one is forgive - amateurism, at best.
      Quote: Kshatriya
      .Read Yaroslav Hasek

      and he doesn’t write anything about the atrocities of the Whites along the entire route from the European part of the country to Vladivostok?
      1. Kshatriy
        Kshatriy 26 October 2012 17: 49
        -5
        Quote: Karlsonn
        Tell you in detail about the white terror, which the Bolsheviks answered in red?

        A descendant of the red-bellied kamandirs and kamissaraf !!!!!!! And tell you how many of the officers and soldiers who surrendered in the Crimea, the parhata white-kun and "compatriot" ... in the steppe were shot from machine guns ... I also say that The Civil War - has not ended ... and God forbid - to live up to (a bright day for me and a terrible day for you) ... Kolchak, Kapel, Semenov, Shkuro - they will smile enough ...
        Quote: Karlsonn
        Here, for a long time, everyone agreed with the idea that there is no more severe form of war than the Civil War and that hanging all dogs on one is forgive - amateurism, at best.

        Learn to express thoughts .... not our amateur, otherwise I couldn’t get out of this verbiage, I couldn’t get anything out of a set of words and pathos .....
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 27 October 2012 01: 23
          +2
          to all threats of hamsters, one answer:
          - we meet in my city, we go to the notary public; witnesses, doctors and law enforcement officials I take bully
          ring, carpet or basketball court - I do not care, well, have to drive more.
          as the Far East beyond
          Quote: Kshatriya
          .Kolchak, Kapel, Semenov

          let's talk.

          Quote: Kshatriya
          Learn to express thoughts .... not our amateur, otherwise I couldn’t get out of this verbiage, I couldn’t get anything out of a set of words and pathos .....

          I'm sorry that you can’t get the point.
          but do not worry, this is not a vice, but only natural data.
        2. rexby63
          rexby63 28 October 2012 11: 34
          +2
          Karlsonn is right - you can’t hang all dogs on one side and civilian flayers, such as A.G. , by their collaboration in the Great Patriotic War proved this. And those gangs ... who put monuments to them deserve the same fate as they - soap ropes
      2. Kshatriy
        Kshatriy 26 October 2012 18: 46
        -5
        Quote: Karlsonn
        About the pogroms?

        ... oooooh ... duck your ancestors somehow survived the pogroms .... I sincerely regret .... !!!
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 27 October 2012 01: 26
          +2
          Quote: Kshatriya
          .oooooo ... duck your ancestors somehow survived the pogroms .... I sincerely regret .... !!!

          ss-esovtsy shot my great-grandfather while the banderlogs kept the perimeter, for helping the partisans and harboring Jews in December 1942, before that they drove the whole village to see the execution.
          not the touch of my ancestors and I won’t say who you are!
  15. Beck
    Beck 26 October 2012 11: 38
    -2
    Carlson.

    And to all the supporters of the bright future of mankind - communism.

    As always, the clear beginning of the topic of dialogue during the opposition forks into many components, some of which are not connected at all with the beginning. Wandering in particulars and justification of what constitutes another topic begins. I am finishing this topic. Since I suppose that I expressed my point of view, judge others. I will say one thing.

    The whole course of historical development has shown that the idea of ​​communism that arose on the realities of 19th century reality does not meet the realities of the late 20th and early 21st centuries. At the end of the 20th century, the collapse of the socialist system, imposed on peoples by force, occurred. Only one fragment remained - the DPRK. Which clearly shows the people of the earth how to live impossible.

    China is no longer socialism and communism, it is just a one-party system. Modern China does not meet the main requirement of the theory of communism. MEANS OF PRODUCTION in China do not belong to the state (people in the terminology of staunch adherents), but to private capital.

    And to fit new theoretical research into the unviable doctrine of communism is the same as putting lotions to the dead.
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 26 October 2012 16: 27
      +3
      Quote: Beck
      The whole course of historical development has shown that the idea of ​​communism that arose on the realities of the reality of the 19 century does not correspond to the realities of the late 20 and the beginning of the 21 century. At the end of the 20 century, the collapse of the socialist system, imposed on peoples by force, occurred.

      You are wrong, I can just as well prove the viability of the bourgeois, capitalist, and of any system.
      The fact that the collapse of the socialist system is not an indication that the communist idea
      Quote: Beck
      does not meet the realities of the end of 20 and the beginning of the 21 century

      The USSR collapsed due to the internal betrayal of the elite; no objective reasons existed.

      Quote: Beck
      And to fit new theoretical research into the unviable doctrine of communism is the same as putting lotions to the dead.

      The banners of our army are still beyond the horizon and history will prove that the truth is ours.
      1. Beck
        Beck 26 October 2012 16: 53
        0
        Carson.

        Thank you for the conversation.
        1. Kshatriy
          Kshatriy 26 October 2012 19: 03
          -3
          Quote: Beck
          Thank you for the conversation.

          In vain you thank him .... these "people" understand only the hemp noose, the ramrod and ... (you can continue the list ...). And the rudiment of a reptilian brain in their cranium, except for learned hatred and paranoid psychosis, can not have anything healthy !!!!!!!!!!!!! (National Communism - "Trotskyist sense" ..., called) .......
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 27 October 2012 01: 30
            -1
            as a Stalinist
            Quote: Kshatriya
            National Communism - "Trotskyist wing

            You insulted me, now the rules of good form between us do not apply.
            1. Allegedly
              Allegedly 27 October 2012 01: 40
              +1
              2 Karlsonn

              That is, excuse me, do you consider Trotsky a good person? White and fluffy?
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 27 October 2012 02: 14
                0
                no - Trotsky’s ice ax is ours!
            2. Kshatriy
              Kshatriy 27 October 2012 19: 40
              -3
              Quote: Karlsonn
              You insulted me, now the rules of good form between us do not apply.

              BETWEEN ME and YOU THERE CAN NOT BE ANY RULES .... Such as you-- the mistake of God of the Kind !!!!!!!! And this error can be corrected only by completely erasing this error !!!!!!!
        2. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 27 October 2012 01: 28
          -2
          and me, can you? I am grateful that I got rid of the error.
          1. Kshatriy
            Kshatriy 27 October 2012 21: 32
            0
            [quote = Karlsonn] and I, can I be on you? I am grateful that I got rid of the error.
            Something I do not remember that you addressed me to you ....... It is not necessary thanks ...
      2. Kshatriy
        Kshatriy 26 October 2012 18: 52
        -1
        Quote: Karlsonn
        The banners of our army are still beyond the horizon and history will prove that the truth is ours.

        On the lampposts, with a noose around your neck, you will advertise your "dyadzybao" - "Hey" descendant ", but in your own words you confirm my thoughts -" The civil war is still going on, and it is not a fact that victory is yours - "krasnopuzye" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 27 October 2012 02: 16
          +2
          as a grandson of the Chekist and son of a Soviet officer, I will say bluntly:
          - I invite you yes ,
          - I will not press the button that you violated the rules of the site and I will not minus
          - I beat and beat the Uryukov
          - I have on the shield of Bandera and crunch lovers of French bread, more than you - a apricot, I read books, because my country did everything for me to become a CCM in 12 years, in 13 I was at the school of Olympic reserve, in 24 engaged with the Ukrainian team in Thai boxing;
          - listen to the puppy here, the last drive was when I put the two to the hospital, and I won the court in self-defense !!!
          - people like you - I’m disqualifying on the carpet, knocking out in the ring,
          - do you want to hang me?
          -
          you are right in one thing - the Civil War is on, but it will end with the fact that we all will end like you.

          ate little porridge - goldfinch!
          1. Kshatriy
            Kshatriy 27 October 2012 19: 33
            -1
            Quote: Karlsonn
            - do you want to hang me?

            Now I want with even greater pleasure !!!!!

            Quote: Karlsonn
            so that I became the CCM at the age of 12, at the age of 13 I was at the school of the Olympic reserve, in the 24th I was engaged with the Ukrainian team in Thai boxing;

            These are all words ... of an exalted hysterical "young man" subject to all inferiority complexes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            Quote: Karlsonn
            Listen to the puppy here, the last drive was when I put the two to the hospital, and I won the court in self-defense !!!

            Quote: Karlsonn
            Listen to the puppy here, the last drive was when I put the two to the hospital, and I won the court in self-defense !!!

            I am not interested in your criminal past !!!!!!! How do I know what laws you have in Rohland ..... !!!!!! Sit in your backyard --- the grandson of a "Chekist" ...., wait for communism ..... !!!!!
            Quote: Karlsonn
            you are right in one thing - the Civil War is on, but it will end with the fact that we all will end like you.

            And the endgame you have grown up "kms on the Olympic reserve" ???????????????????????????????????? ????????????
            Quote: Karlsonn
            ate little porridge - goldfinch!

            What mushrooms did you eat ... Or did you smoke ganjubasu ?????
            1. FIMUK
              FIMUK 29 October 2012 15: 22
              0
              Under the leadership of Stalin, our country has become a world empire. It was he who achieved the goal that generations of Russians strove for. Communism will disappear like a wart, but an empire - it will remain! It is a pity that Stalin is not a real king: for this he has all the data! You Communists do not know the Russian soul. The people have an almost religious need to be led by a father to whom he could trust. Ah, if Stalin was not a Bolshevik!

              Shulgin laid all his hopes on the greatness of the Stalinist empire.

              “I don’t want to be released,” he said, “because everywhere they will accept me the way you accepted me.” I hope they will give me a camera where I can continue to write books on the history of our country.

              An ardent anti-Semite, the inspirer of the Jewish pogroms, Shulgin was released much earlier than the distinguished communists were freed. He was given a cottage in the village, where this figure, who smoked incense to the Stalinist regime, continues his work to this day ...

              http://sokol.zbord.ru/viewtopic.php?t=357
              1. Kshatriy
                Kshatriy 29 October 2012 18: 19
                0
                Quote: FIMUK
                Under the leadership of Stalin, our country has become a world empire. It was he who achieved the goal that generations of Russians strove for. Communism will disappear like a wart, but an empire - it will remain!

                ..... I respect Stalin only for the fact that he was able to exterminate the disgusting "elite" ...... (uborevchi Kamenev bluchers compatriot Trotsky Tukhachevsky ... and others like them !!!!!) ... sentenced in 1918 the Russian people to its complete extermination in the concentration camps of the "labor army" (read Comrade Bronstein's theory of permanent revolution))) .. and stopped the genocide of the Russian people, with one sentence: "The son is not responsible for his father" !!!! ! Glory to the Russian people - the people to the Winner !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                1. FIMUK
                  FIMUK 29 October 2012 18: 34
                  -1
                  thus Stalin understood that he could not say anything about his followers and companions.
                  1. Kshatriy
                    Kshatriy 30 October 2012 18: 11
                    0
                    Quote: FIMUK

                    thus Stalin understood that he could not say anything about his followers and companions.

                    .... Uh-huh ... Stalin was still that "WitMag" was .... but one more "pygmies" .......