What the Saints Say

99
What the Saints Say


This is how our High Priest should be:
holy, innocent, blameless,
separated from sinners and exalted above heaven.

The Epistle to the Jews of the Apostle Paul, 7:26

History and culture. We have already talked about the fact that illustrations - book miniatures from medieval manuscripts - are the most valuable sources of our knowledge about the Middle Ages. Although, of course, in this case, there is an integrated approach: archaeological sites are studied, then they are compared with images in dated manuscripts, then attention is drawn to the descriptions of certain armor in the inventory of castles, as well as "invoices" for payment for custom-made armor .



Ideally, if the armor has survived to this day, there are descriptions of it in the inventories, as well as documents for ordering or paying, as well as its drawing in special books - "advertising booklets" of the past. There is no armor - there are effigies, that is, three-dimensional tomb figures. There are no effigies - there are planar images, the so-called breaststrokes. In any case, their dating and the dating of drawings of similar armor in manuscripts, also dated, matters.

This is how the chronology of the development of medieval weapons was gradually compiled. Moreover, it is important to note that among the illustrations, not only those that are directly devoted to the depiction of warriors in armor are important, but also those where they are depicted, so to speak, indirectly, and the characters of the illustrations are completely different characters. For example, the saints, who in the Middle Ages were constantly depicted in such manuscripts as numerous psalters, books of hours and bibles. Let's take a look at the pages of these most interesting books and see what the... saints depicted on them can tell us!


Let's start with the image of St. Michael from the Exposition of the Apocalypse, painted in Germany, dated 1249-1250. The dragon and St. Michael himself are unimportant for us, but the three warriors on the left look like the characters in the movie "Alexander Nevsky" (1938), but simpler, much simpler ... "Apocalypse Exposition", Cambridge University Library

Saint Lawrence. Let's not pay attention to the torments of this saint (and he, refusing to worship the pagan gods, was roasted alive on an iron grate with hot coals, and the servants pressed his body to it with horns), but let's look at the soldiers above. And although they are very small, it is obvious that they are wearing traditional hauberks, surcoats and triangular shields.


Miniature "Execution of St. Lawrence on slow fire", 1250-1260. Paris, France, Limoges French Multimedia Library


And here is a miniature dedicated to the popular theme: "Christ rising from the tomb." Naturally, his guards are asleep and see nothing at all. But we see that the warrior in the foreground is dressed like a real knight, and not from the poor, because he is wearing a surcoat-miparti, that is, made up of two different fabrics. The baldric of the sword is written out in the most careful way, so it is quite possible that this is a drawing from life, or the artist knew perfectly well how the sword baldric is tied. Psalter. Miniature "Christ rising from the tomb", 1265 Magdeburg, Germany. Bavarian State Library, Munich


So this "picture" looks completely ...


The Christian Church also knows seven St. deacons. The suffering of one of them is shown in this initial miniature. It is small in size. But it is clearly seen that the warrior on the left has a canonical appearance, just like the warriors of this time on other miniatures (and let's add - effigies) of this era. Lives of the Saints, 1288 National Royal Library of Belgium, Brussels


In this illustration we see the meeting of two saints. One of them is St. Eustace. Half a century has passed since the appearance of our first illustration, and the appearance of the warriors has not changed much, has it? "Life of Eustace and Other Saints", 1300-1325 Paris, France. British Library, London

Saint George or George on miniatures, as well as on statues and coats of arms, is easier to recognize than other saints. It is customary to depict him on a horse, in armor (of course, every time in the armor of his time) and in addition, he also very often strikes a dragon.


Illustration from the manuscript "History of the Holy Grail", 1310-1320. Philosophy Hermetic Library, Amsterdam

This miniature is interesting in that the armor and weapons of the warriors on it do not differ from the images of the XNUMXth century, with the exception of one detail: armorial shields - elets - appeared on the shoulders of the warriors. And some of them have a very whimsical shape. The Cross of Saint George is red on a white field.

The miniatures very clearly show the changes in weapons that occur over time. Here, for example, the image of St. Mauritius. He led the Roman legion, was martyred for refusing to persecute Christians, and from the XNUMXth century was considered the patron saint of knights. Therefore, he is often depicted with a sword. The miniature dates back to the end of the XNUMXth century and on it at St. Mauritius we see a bascinet helmet with a “dog muzzle” visor, a short jupon and a full plate cover for the legs. But only some half a century has passed since the writing of the manuscript about the Holy Grail ...


"Saint Mauritius" from René of Anjou's Book of Hours 1405-1410 looks just like a participant in the Battle of Grunwald. The shield is completely different! It differs from St. George by a red robe and a white cross. Paris, France. British Library, London

Next in the row of "our" saints is St. Adrian. And if we look at his image in a miniature of 1400–1450, then the conclusion can be unambiguous: the illuminator who designed this book saw the knights only from afar, or maybe he was so lazy or drunk that he decided - “it will do.” and so, ”the main thing is the radiance from the head!


Miniature from the Saint Adrian manuscript, 1400-1450. France. Municipal Library of Boulogne-sur-Mer


A very interesting image of St. Luke from the "Bible History", referring to 1411. Look at the warriors! They do not correspond to the specified year at all. Most likely, the artist redrawn this scene from an older manuscript. France, British Library, London

Saint Victor of Marseilles is not as well known here in Russia as in the West. However, he is revered both there and here. Just in different forms. Catholics venerate him as a saint, and Orthodox - in the guise of martyrs. Well, then everything happened to him, as with many other first believers: being a Roman commander, he refused to sacrifice to the statue of the god Jupiter, and even kicked it with his foot. The then Emperor Maximilian did not like this, and he ordered Victor to be executed, and not just like that, but in a very sophisticated way - laying it between the millstones.


Illustration depicting Saint Victor of Marseilles. "Paris Breviary", 1414 Paris, France. The Equinox Municipal Mediatheque is one of 18 libraries in the Indre department located in the commune of Châteauroux, France

In this miniature, Victor looks like a real knight with a coat of arms and on a horse also covered with a coat of arms. Under the blanket of fabric - a blanket of chain mail! The horse's head is protected by a complex gilded mask, most likely made of leather. Victor's torso over the armor closes the jupon. This fashion of wearing armor was typical for this time.


Book of Hours 1433-1434 Angers, France. Morgan Library, New York

Saint Sebastian was a famous martyr for the faith, and much cannot be squeezed out of this illustration in this case. Except one: in 1433-1434. - Namely, at this time the book of hours with this miniature was written, crossbows with the so-called English collar still continued to be used.

An interesting source is the Life of Saints Edmund and Fremund, 1433–1434. The first was the king of England in the ninth century, and the Vikings shot him with bows; the other lost his head. In this illustration from this manuscript, we see typical knights in "white armor" with "skirts" of metal stripes and wearing "grand bascinet" helmets. Swords in one and a half hands - yes, typical for this time, however, two truly huge felchens (falchions) attract attention, which ... have never been found anywhere and, alas, have not reached our time.


"St. Edmund "" Life of Saints Edmund and Fremund", 1433-1434. Bury St Edmunds, England. British Library, London


However, the portholes of those years did not shy away from a certain amount of fantasy in their images. Miniature from the same manuscript...

Another saint, usually depicted with a sword in his hand, is Martin of Tours, who cut his cloak with it and gave half to the beggar. They draw him in the clothes of a city dweller, since he was not a warrior, but the sword (directly according to E. Oakeshott) changes from century to century.


"Master Zweder van Culemborg's Book of Hours" (Illuminator: Zweder van Culemborgh, c. 1415–1440). The full-page miniature depicts Saint Martin, Bishop of Tours, sharing his cloak with a beggar. Publication date around 1430. Manuscript with illustrations on parchment. Royal Library of the Netherlands

Hence the conclusion: this is how the dating of past eras is established. Very slowly and painstakingly. But… there is no other way, it just won't work.

PS


By the way, it is St. Martin, or rather his statue, that plays one of the key roles in Paul Verhoeven's film "Flesh and Blood" ... And there is enough of something, but there is enough flesh and blood!
99 comments
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  1. +3
    12 October 2022 05: 39
    The key role in the mentioned film of Verhoeven is played not by the statue of the saint, but by the naked female body.
    1. +4
      12 October 2022 10: 39
      Probably the statue of St. Martin. smile

  2. +5
    12 October 2022 05: 59
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    Nice collection of illustrations.

    But can you make knights pose in all their gear. Here the artists showed their imagination to the best of their ability.

    I wonder what conclusion about the details of our and the last century can be drawn from the paintings of abstractionists.

    Only the portrait of the Chairman passed the test from the "Prince Florizel".
    1. +6
      12 October 2022 06: 50
      Quote from Korsar4
      I wonder what conclusion about the details of our and the last century can be drawn from the paintings of abstractionists.

      They were out of their minds!
      1. +1
        12 October 2022 07: 45
        Quote: kalibr
        They were out of their minds!

        I wouldn’t say that, of course they suffered from alcoholism and insanity, it’s probably more correct to say that they ended up in such a state, but they were well aware of what they were doing, there was a real mystical subtext in their works.
        It is no coincidence, after all, that some of their creations, at exhibitions, were demonstratively exhibited in the "red corner"
      2. 0
        14 October 2022 21: 10
        IN. Have you thought about writing about Christianity, or rather about all its "branches"?
        Thanks for all your articles. I constantly read, but there is almost no time to comment, alas.
        1. 0
          15 October 2022 06: 48
          Quote: Grim Reaper
          Have you thought about writing about Christianity, or rather about all its "branches"?

          Great idea. Moreover, I already had articles on it, but for a long time. You can revive, add, expand. Thank you for the idea!
    2. +2
      12 October 2022 10: 48
      Good morning, Sergey! smile

      Only the portrait of the Chairman passed the test from the "Prince Florizel".


      I did not find anything similar to the portrait of the Chairman, everything is more or less "serious", if you do not take fantasy into account.

      1. +3
        12 October 2022 16: 41
        Good afternoon, Konstantin!

        Like from an old chess textbook:

        The kings have few retinues left,
        The courtyard was empty, the courtiers were killed
        1. +3
          12 October 2022 17: 05
          The king was going on a trip to a foreign country.
          He queen dried bag of crackers
          And I sewed the old mantle up so neatly,
          I gave him a pack of shag and salt in a rag.
          1. +2
            12 October 2022 17: 21
            Because, as correctly noted in the same song, "sweet gingerbread is always not enough for everyone."
            1. +3
              12 October 2022 18: 32
              Alas, it is. But the morally unstable corporal still grabbed his piece of the pie. wink

              1. +2
                12 October 2022 18: 50
                Sleep to yourself, brothers, it will all start again
                Everything must repeat itself in nature -
                And words, and bullets, and love, and blood ...
                Time will not be reconciled.
                1. +4
                  12 October 2022 18: 59
                  We are no longer enough in ranks of eight,
                  And the heroes got bored with the soldier's jargon.*
                  And crosses embroider last fall
                  On the worn gold of our shoulder straps.
      2. +5
        12 October 2022 18: 51
        Quote: Sea Cat
        fantasy calculation.

        Come on! Lots of images.

        "Checkered", he is the Chairman.
        Good evening friends! hi
        1. +4
          12 October 2022 19: 04
          Seryozha, hi! smile
          This guy, he's also the Chairman. laughing
          1. +2
            12 October 2022 20: 22
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Chairman.

            Many chairmen. Good and different. fellow
            Good evening Konstantin!
            1. +2
              12 October 2022 21: 12
              Lots of chairmen. Good and different.


              That's for sure! laughing

              1. +1
                12 October 2022 23: 34
                Do not walk with the agronomist, - I will pull out my legs, -
                You can walk around with the chairman a couple of times.
                1. +2
                  13 October 2022 01: 43
                  Here you come back, I'm afraid, busy, smart:
                  You won’t even look at home - you’ll immediately go to the village council.


                  And a portrait of Charlie Chaplin on the wall. laughing
        2. +2
          12 October 2022 19: 44
          Good evening, Seryozha!

          Poured Banionis.
          1. +3
            12 October 2022 20: 21
            Quote from Korsar4
            The spitting image of Banionis

            The artist's left eye was especially successful! bully
            Greetings Sergey!
            1. +2
              12 October 2022 20: 28
              In this film, every bast is in a line.

              As for the portrait, there is a version that it parodies Picasso's "Portrait of Ambroise Vollard".
              1. +1
                12 October 2022 21: 10
                Well, somehow for comparison - Picasso's "Portrait of Ambroise Vollard". smile

                1. +2
                  12 October 2022 21: 31
                  That only from cubes the cubists did not collect.
                  1. +3
                    12 October 2022 21: 54
                    One even managed to assemble a "picture" from one cube and called it "Black Square". Well, at least somehow it was necessary to stand out from the crowd. drinks
  3. +4
    12 October 2022 06: 01
    This miniature is interesting in that the armor and weapons of the warriors on it do not differ from the images of the XNUMXth century, with the exception of one detail: armorial shields - elets - appeared on the shoulders of the warriors.
    In addition: the topfhelm helmet was replaced by a bascinet with a visor, there are knee pads.
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
  4. +4
    12 October 2022 06: 06
    The head of the horse is protected by a complex gilded mask, most likely made of leather.
    Doesn't have to be leather. The oldest extant saffron, "Warwick saffron", dates back to 1400.
    1. +4
      12 October 2022 06: 54
      I wrote from the skin, Anton, because the horse is already loaded. Can you imagine - a blanket for chain mail, most likely made of leather with cotton pads, a chain mail blanket, then fabric again. Embroidered... Can you imagine the weight? And then there's the all-iron "muzzle" on the head ... a lot, in my opinion. Therefore, I consider this assumption acceptable.
      1. +4
        12 October 2022 07: 08
        And none of us can imagine what a "distrie" is, because even the bone remains have not been preserved.
        1. +3
          12 October 2022 07: 35
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          And none of us can imagine what a "distrie" is, because even the bone remains have not been preserved.

          Descriptions only.Yes.
        2. +7
          12 October 2022 10: 43
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          And none of us can imagine what a "distrie" is, because even the bone remains have not been preserved.

          This is not the case. Researchers at the University of Exeter examined 1964 skeletal remains found in 191 excavations of horses dating back to the Middle Ages and compiled a fairly detailed account of the morphology of horses of that period and their evolution from the 5th to the 17th century. The work was published in the Journal of Osteoarchaeology.
          hi
          1. +3
            12 October 2022 10: 58
            Thank you, Victor!
            I will definitely ask
            1. +1
              12 October 2022 11: 20
              In general, until the 13th century, the horses were approximately like the current ponies (which, by the way, indirectly indicates the dimensions of the people of that time). Then there is a progressive growth and by the 17th century they approached modern sizes
              1. +6
                12 October 2022 11: 28
                This is a very controversial generalization.
                Gavronsky writes that in the Roman layers, archaeologists find bones 145-150 cm at the withers. And it's not that uncommon. For comparison - horse armor in Leeds is designed for a 145 cm horse
                Two types of horses are found in the Pazyryk burial mounds - conditional "ponies" 130 cm at the withers and 140 cm horses similar to Akhal-Teke horses.
                1. +1
                  12 October 2022 11: 46
                  People conducted a serious study - 2000 remains after all. But they were not based on single finds in some kind of tomb. It is clear that we are talking about the total mass. On average, war horses were larger than a peasant horse, which is also understandable.


                  Quote: Engineer
                  Gavronsky writes that in the Roman layers, archaeologists find bones 145-150 cm at the withers

                  The height at the withers of a modern pony is 140-145 cm if anything)
                  1. +5
                    12 October 2022 11: 50
                    The height at the withers of a modern pony is 140-145 cm if anything)

                    I have a different idea of ​​a pony, but that's my problem.
                    Gavronsky refers to a generalized analysis of Roman sites. Not to single finds.
                    On Assyrian reliefs, horses also do not look like ponies.
                    1. +1
                      12 October 2022 11: 54
                      Quote: Engineer
                      I have a different idea of ​​a pony, but that's my problem



                      Since the withers do not move in relation to ground level (in both horses and dogs), it is used to measure the horse's height. Usually the height of a horse is measured in the palms - in one palm there are 4 inches (10,16 cm). Horses can vary greatly in size, from small ponies to large draft horses. The average height at the withers of a purebred horse is 16 palms (1,6 m), for a pony - 14,2 palms (1,44 m).

                      As you can see, an insignificant difference in the height of the withers, 15/20 cm between a pony and an ordinary horse, gives a difference of two times in overall dimensions. It's like the caliber of guns).
                      1. +6
                        12 October 2022 12: 05
                        I proceed from the fact that pure breeds in the modern sense did not exist in the Middle Ages.
                        A pony is not only a size, but also an exterior - short legs, neck, etc.
                        The ancestors of the Akhal-Teke or Akhal-Teke-like horses were smaller than modern ones, but similar in appearance to modern ones.
                        Despite their apparent fragility, they carried heavily armored riders.
                        About ponies and ponies. In Japan, they carried out large-scale reconstructions of samurai riders. Selected local breeds of horses closest in height and appearance to the medieval. Real ponies. It turned out that they simply could not ride with a rider in armor for more than 100 m. Then they took a step.
                      2. +3
                        12 October 2022 12: 13
                        I’m not saying that in the Middle Ages they rode ponies. They rode horses similar to the current ones in appearance ... but much smaller than modern ones. Accordingly, the riders were much smaller than modern ones. You can’t deceive nature)
                      3. +3
                        12 October 2022 12: 15
                        They rode horses similar to the current ones in appearance ... but much smaller

                        Well, I can agree. Maybe the word "much" would be replaced with a less strong form.
                      4. +1
                        12 October 2022 12: 26
                        Quote: Engineer
                        the word "much" would be replaced by a less strong form.

                        This is a matter of perception. Between a person 150 cm tall and 50 kg in weight and a person 180 cm / 80 kg, the difference mathematically seems to be small ... 20 percent. And put them side by side in reality - a giant and a dwarf)
                      5. +4
                        12 October 2022 12: 31
                        The growth of people in the Antique era and the Middle Ages is a separate issue and I am not strong in it.
                      6. +3
                        12 October 2022 12: 46
                        Relatively recently I was in Pompeii. This is one of the few places that shows the life of, say, ordinary people of that time. Ordinary people are 95% of the total mass, if anything. But almost nothing is known about them. All written sources, and even material (all sorts of tombs) - it's still about 5% who are the aristocracy and soldiers. Which differed significantly from the general mass physically. Due to the fact that they ate incomparably better and were healthier than ordinary people.
                        So .. Pompeii is good because it gives a good picture of ordinary citizens who are not aristocrats and not soldiers. Believe me, the rooms in their houses are microscopic by our modern standards. It would be impossible for a person with modern dimensions to live there)
                      7. +4
                        12 October 2022 17: 18
                        Victor, it was worth laying out the photo.
                      8. +1
                        12 October 2022 20: 03
                        upload photos
                        Lambeth Palace, 15th century.

                        The pedestrian entrance is approx. 1.4 meters high and the main gate is approx. 2 meters high. both people and horses freely passed through them.
                      9. 0
                        19 October 2022 21: 39
                        Quote: Bolt Cutter
                        upload photos
                        Lambeth Palace, 15th century.

                        The pedestrian entrance is approx. 1.4 meters high and the main gate is approx. 2 meters high. both people and horses freely passed through them.

                        And now look at the windows of the first floor - the one on the left, almost at ground level. At MODERN ground level.
                        For 500 years, a meter of earth had been blown there by the wind - so both the door for pedestrians and the gate were originally higher, and passers-by did not look into the windows.
                      10. 0
                        19 October 2022 21: 48
                        were initially higher.
                        And the thresholds and the pavement are from those times, so nothing has been done there. And what caused, the servants took out.
                      11. 0
                        19 October 2022 22: 22
                        In Moscow and in many other cities, old houses have windows on the ground floor halfway under the modern sidewalk. And it happens - and the entire first floor is already underground, now the second is like the first (there are a lot of photos on the Internet).
                      12. 0
                        19 October 2022 22: 29
                        It's a little different here (at least in Lambeth Palace)
                      13. +1
                        12 October 2022 20: 09
                        We should look for everything in the cloud and systematize .. I'm too lazy for this.
                        Did you see some of it live?
                      14. +1
                        12 October 2022 20: 38
                        Did you see some of it live?
                        I respect the authorship, you did not publish, well, and I did not turn up.
                      15. +1
                        12 October 2022 20: 43
                        This year I could throw off about Girona and Barcelona. You just recently discussed it here. It’s a pity I was in the bathhouse)
                      16. +4
                        12 October 2022 19: 41
                        Quote: Liam
                        Believe me, the rooms in their houses are microscopic by our modern standards. It would be impossible for a person with modern dimensions to live there)

                        And the foundations of houses in Gorgippia are very small.
                      17. +2
                        12 October 2022 20: 13
                        So you noticed. Somehow everything is miniature. Like Tolkien's hobbits). Photos do not convey this. Tall people in our understanding could not live there
                      18. +3
                        12 October 2022 20: 45
                        Was in Spain. City of Malgrad de Mar. Well, medieval houses, flowers on balconies and window sills, and even on roofs, doors directly onto the street. I go and look through the open windows. And ... some rooms are so small that you just wonder, something like a carriage compartment! But there were also big houses... But new ones!
                      19. +1
                        12 October 2022 21: 05
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Malgrad de Mar

                        This summer I vacationed in Calella .. it's 10 km towards Barcelona from Malgrad)
                        Yes, and medieval streets in residential areas - it is unlikely that two modern horses will be able to walk along them side by side
                      20. +1
                        13 October 2022 07: 34
                        Quote: Liam
                        I vacationed in Calella this summer

                        Wow, I was also in Kaleila, somehow I reached it on foot, walking along the sea. There's a town on a town!
                      21. 0
                        13 October 2022 08: 22
                        Quote: kalibr
                        and I was also in Kaleila,

                        Did you get to the lighthouse?

                      22. 0
                        13 October 2022 08: 28
                        No, only to the station. I twirled there a little, managed to drink coffee and ... drove back.
                      23. +2
                        12 October 2022 21: 32
                        By the way, the feeling is the same in Chersonesus. Somehow already discussed on the forum.
                      24. 0
                        13 October 2022 07: 36
                        Now the road is being widened from the Anapa airport and junctions are being built. and dug up a settlement right on the side of the road - this summer I was driving past, asked the driver to stop: also "squares".
        3. +5
          12 October 2022 10: 48
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Not even bones have been preserved.

          This is all Christianity ... Well, what a miserable institution - to bury a respected person without basic necessities?
          However, I think that the appearance of the destrie and its working qualities can be judged from their descendants, such as, for example, percherons. Plus, a sufficient amount of horse armor shows us their size.
          By the way, do I understand correctly that a destrie is not a breed proper, with its own exterior and other features, but any horse brought up in certain conditions and trained for certain actions, possessing certain skills?
          Like "give me this foal and I'll make a real destrie out of him."
          1. +1
            12 October 2022 11: 11
            and his working qualities can be judged by their descendants, such as, for example, percherons

            It remains to prove that the Percheron is a descendant of the Destriers.
            By the way, do I understand correctly that a destrie is not a breed proper, with its own exterior and other features, but any horse brought up in certain conditions and trained for certain actions, possessing certain skills?

            At present, the point of view is beginning to prevail that all these Destriers, Chargers, Khalfries are not breeds, but phenotypes. About the fact that destrie is done by raising a horse, this did not come across.
            Threat for yuoev horses traditionally selected the largest. But from a modern point of view, they are not large at all.
            1. +2
              12 October 2022 11: 40
              The question can be put like this: did the destrie exist without a knight?
              1. +2
                12 October 2022 11: 45
                I mean, did the destries go in harness? I have no idea. The context of the use of this word has not been studied.
                But you need to understand that destrie is originally a large and strong horse, adjusted for the era of course. The fact that in the process of education they culled the stupid and cowardly is understandable. But the physical starting base must be solid
                Bruce knocked down de Boen while sitting on a riding horse -halfrey. She turned out to be well-trained and very brave - she was not afraid of a rider on a war horse. But she remained a Khalfri, and did not become a Destriye.
                1. +1
                  12 October 2022 12: 39
                  Halfrey... This is the first time I hear this term.
                  As far as I understand, all European breeds of horses come from three roots: conditionally European (descendants of local horses), conditionally Arabian (or Andalusian) and conditionally steppe (inherited from the steppes, through Hungary and Russia). The first were distinguished by strength and massiveness, the second - by grace and speed, the third - by endurance and unpretentiousness. The combination of these qualities through crossbreeding and selection gave birth to all modern breeds of horses.
                  As far as I understand, we cannot speak clearly about clear and concretely expressed breeds of horses in the XIII century, for example, and, probably, up to the XVI century. There was, it seems, a Friesian breed, but I can’t judge how competent it is to talk about it as a breed.
                  I think it is impossible to put an equal sign between the concepts of "war horse" and "destrie", the concept of "war horse" is wider in scope and, of course, includes the concept of "destrie", but does it include it in full or in part?
                  Quote: Engineer
                  The fact that in the process of education they culled the stupid and cowardly is understandable.

                  And here is the question - did the culled horses remain in the status of "destriee"?
                  1. +3
                    12 October 2022 12: 54
                    I dont know. For me, it's specific. I see that the exterior-physical data are primary. Education is secondary. Although it is a must.
                    You can study the problem and see in what context the term was used destrierBut I'm not interested at all, and you won't do it.
                    At present, the sum of knowledge about destria looks like this (in my opinion) - this is most likely not a separate breed, hardly more than 150 cm at the withers, it is unlikely that it appeared before the 13th century. In Barbour, the term destrier is already used.
                    There is another term charger- either a synonym for destrie, or a slightly smaller war horse.
                    1. +1
                      12 October 2022 13: 22
                      Quote: Engineer
                      exterior - physical data are primary.

                      Physical data - I agree. The exterior is unlikely. Is it height, size, but this, again, is more physical data. The structure of the skull, color, coat length and other details of the exterior, which make it possible to attribute the horse to one or another breed, I think, did not matter. Education is as necessary a condition as physical data, by no means secondary.
                      1. +2
                        12 October 2022 13: 31
                        Argument for the sake of argument.
                        exterior - physical data

                        Physical data as part of the exterior.
                        Education is as necessary a condition as physical data, by no means secondary.

                        Secondary because the horse was originally like physical selection. That's all. I have no data on the enrollment of low horses in destrye for fighting spirit and moral-volitional, and I was not interested in this. If you have, then share, I will say thank you. Your "I believe" without any arguments somehow does not look.
                        Also, I do not know that they were discharged from destrie for cowardice and stupidity and transferred to a team. If you have examples, please share, otherwise there is nothing to discuss.
                2. +2
                  12 October 2022 13: 48
                  Quote: Engineer
                  I mean, did the destries go in harness? I have no idea. The context of the use of this word has not been studied.

                  Destriero is an exclusively combat / tournament horse. Tall to inspire fear, including strong to withstand the weight of a knight in armor, slow moving. A prerequisite is trained. He had to perform various commands and maneuvers to help the knight in battle.

                  There were four more categories of horses. Corsiero Palafreno, Ronzino, Somiero.

                  Only the latter was used in the team.
                  Italian terminology
                  1. +3
                    12 October 2022 13: 51
                    This is understandable and fully consistent with stereotypes. Although the extremes of 160-170 cm destrie in the Middle Ages are now discarded.
                    Why did Mikhail need to cast a shadow on the wattle fence, I did not understand.
                    1. +2
                      12 October 2022 13: 57
                      Quote: Engineer
                      It's all clear

                      I'm here to keep the conversation going)
                      In general, we must always remember that horses in those glorious times were not used in teams, for carts, or there for peasant work. They were too expensive. Draft work is a mule and a bull, basically. Rather, even a sports car .. Destriero is an armored car or tank.

                      Status thing in general
                      1. +4
                        12 October 2022 14: 03
                        By the way, when I was interested in this issue, among the Slavs, the horse is quite the main draft animal
                        PVL:
                        when obrin had to go, he harnessed neither a horse nor an ox

                        In the epic about Volga and Mikul (linguistically considered very ancient)
                        The horned mare has a nightingale
                      2. +1
                        12 October 2022 14: 08
                        This is also an aspect. The Middle Ages - serfdom in its various forms. How free the serf was in choosing a "workhorse" and being its owner.
                      3. +4
                        12 October 2022 14: 14
                        There were no mules in Russia for a very long time. It seems that in the collection "Slavs and Scandinavians" there was a thesis that the Germans mostly plowed oxen. The Slavs are still more on horseback.
                        Even the words of Vladimir Monomakh related to the 12th century confirm this
                        It’s amazing to me, combatants, that you feel sorry for the horses with which the peasant plows, but you don’t think how not to let the peasant himself be taken away in full. The peasant will begin to plow, and the Polovtsy will come and pierce him with arrows, and the horse will take him
                      4. +2
                        12 October 2022 14: 23
                        In pre-serfdom times, it could very well be. A person was both a plowman and a warrior. In the spring - to plow / sow, in the summer to go for zipuns, in the fall - to harvest.

                        Yes, and the neighborhood with the steppes made itself felt. There were a lot of horses there. But good bulls, not really
                3. +2
                  12 October 2022 17: 25
                  Bruce knocked down de Boen while sitting on a riding horse -halfri. She turned out to be well-trained and very brave - she was not afraid of a rider on a war horse.
                  Now the question arises...
                  If Bruce's horse was an ordinary riding horse, why wasn't it afraid of its own rider's spear shaft?
                  1. +2
                    12 October 2022 18: 06
                    Bruce most likely was not with a spear. Only with an axe.
                    Secondly, I'm not sure that all horses are afraid of the spear shaft of their own rider. Perhaps there is an element of individuality here.
                    Not Khalfri, but Palfrey. You can't work and write on topvar at the same time)
                    1. +3
                      12 October 2022 18: 33
                      Secondly, I'm not sure that all horses are afraid of the spear shaft of their own rider. Perhaps there is an element of individuality here.
                      1. Horses are really afraid of objects "grabbed" by peripheral vision.
                      2. Experience with a pole over the muzzle of a horse Shpakovsky conducted personally. True, once. I was afraid that the cushing did not grow together.
                      3. Most of the saffrons that have come down to us have a "deaf" part in the back hemisphere (it would be more correct to say: a quarter sphere) of the animal's eyeball. That is, it does not see the spear. Now another question arises: when, in fact, did the kushing technique arise?
                      1. +2
                        12 October 2022 19: 01
                        We have already discussed about the cudded spear. Hardly before the 12th century
                        So let's leave the first part of the thesis - our Bruce was without a spear. As in all reconstruction drawings
                      2. +3
                        12 October 2022 19: 23
                        Yes, of course, discussed, but did not come to any opinion. Sirech, or knightly horses were taught not to be afraid of a stick over the eyes (that is, "distre" - it is the very thing, not afraid). Or saffrons were invented 300 years earlier than their counterparts that have come down to us.
                      3. +1
                        12 October 2022 19: 39
                        12th century opinion of historians. )
                        Maybe it's better to say "Destrie" This is also not afraid ...)?
                        The Romans had saffron. Their purpose is clear, either protection for the time of military exercises, or in a combat situation, they were also used.
                        But apparently in the Middle Ages there was a cliff and really appeared relatively late.
                        Maybe in the 11th-13th centuries the phlegmatic type of horse dominated in Europe, which does not need such an invention.
                        But anyway, I'm not qualified here.
                      4. +1
                        12 October 2022 20: 00
                        I feel in horses, you, Denis, are the same specialist as I am.
                      5. +1
                        12 October 2022 20: 03
                        That is how
                      6. 0
                        12 October 2022 20: 18
                        Well, then what the hell are boobs (hooves) to crush?
                4. +1
                  12 October 2022 20: 34
                  Quote: Engineer
                  I mean, did the destries go in harness?
                  Did not go. I read about destire a long time ago, I don’t remember where. It was a huge, vicious horse, which had to be fed only with oats (minimum). She did not touch the knight, since he taught her from the age of a foal, but the grooms constantly got it. But there are many grooms, but few destire, they were forgiven. He was not suitable for peasant work, not only because the peasant could not feed her and was of a vile character (they didn’t steal destire - horse thieves had almost no chance of surviving), but also because of the huge growth (when plowing, for example, the plow attachment angle turned out disproportionate).
                  1. +1
                    12 October 2022 20: 48
                    The Rochester Bestiary has a drawing of two fighting horses. And it is written there that a trained warhorse must bite, kick and beat with the hooves of the owner's enemies, including horses.
                  2. +1
                    13 October 2022 10: 11
                    There was a purely formal question: if the destrie is not good enough, is the proud title of destrie removed from him and given to the peisans or not?
                    I read about destire a long time ago, I don’t remember where

                    Read more. I recommend this. everyone should like it.
                    https://vk.com/@longsword_club-a-kusalsya-li-boevoi-kon-k-voprosu-o-predpolagaemom-ispolzov
                    To promote Zvyagintsev a little
                    Pictures from the article

                    The horse kicks in the battle below. An illustration of a possible combat technique along with others.

                    There are many more interesting
        4. +3
          12 October 2022 11: 08
          And none of us can imagine what a "distrie" is, because even the bone remains have not been preserved.

          Haven't the medieval remains of horses been preserved?
          1. +3
            12 October 2022 14: 03
            Quite a few actually survived.
            Quote from Nephilim
            Haven't the medieval remains of horses been preserved?
            1. +1
              12 October 2022 22: 44
              What I'm leading to.
              The text of your comment is too short and in the opinion of the site administration does not carry useful information.
  5. +3
    12 October 2022 07: 23
    Look at the warriors! They do not correspond to the specified year at all. Most likely, the artist redrawn this scene from an older manuscript.
    Again, not necessarily.
    Chainmail and a cervelier helmet were used as underarmor armor at the beginning of the XNUMXth century.
    1. +2
      12 October 2022 12: 32
      cervelier helmet

      An interesting legend is associated with this helmet, according to which it was invented by the famous Scottish scientist Michael Scott, a very interesting person. In addition to mathematics and philosophy, he was fond of astrology and predictions that came true. He determined that his death would come from a blow to the head with a stone, and came up with a helmet in which he stayed everywhere. But in the church, the helmet had to be removed, and a brick that fell from somewhere struck the scientist to death.
      1. +1
        12 October 2022 17: 25
        Wonderful story. Worthy of Lermontov's Fatalist.

        And it shows, among other things, that one should not fall into dependence on predictions.
  6. +1
    12 October 2022 09: 19
    And how to interpret illustrations that depict Russian soldiers or Cossacks, but the captions say that these are Tatar-Mongolian warriors?
    An example of such pictures is given by Fomenko in his works. Of course, he is not an authority, but questions arise.
    1. +6
      12 October 2022 10: 25
      Quote: glory1974
      And how to interpret illustrations that depict Russian soldiers or Cossacks, but the captions say that these are Tatar-Mongolian warriors?

      The illustrations, I believe, are the earliest, the XNUMXth century, and most likely the XNUMXth. By the beginning of the reign of Vasily III, it was really difficult to distinguish a Russian warrior from a Tatar - almost the same set of weapons.
      Give illustrations with Fomenko's comments - we'll see. For a long time I didn’t practice on it in analysis, I need to keep in shape. smile
    2. +3
      12 October 2022 10: 30
      Quote: glory1974
      And how to interpret illustrations that depict Russian soldiers or Cossacks, but the captions say that these are Tatar-Mongolian warriors?

      Michael gave a very good answer below. I fully agree with him. But, by the way, there are differences, although, and not everywhere, there are very similar pictures. For example, in the Life of A. Nevsky.
  7. 0
    28 December 2022 12: 20
    Mientras los cristianos quemaban vivos a toda clase de herejes, imponían por el mismo sistema el falso por exagerado, relato del martírio y persecución de la nueva religión y sus fieles. Hoy los oyes hablar, y si no conoces la Historia, estás en peligro.
    Defienden los valores politicos de la democracia como si ellos la hubieran inventado. Protestan contra la mordaza impuesta a la libertad de expresión, y contra lo que llaman el relativismo, pero te quemarían vivo si pudieran si echaras en cara su hipocresía, recordándoles como pusieron una mordaza a Giordano Bruno para impedir que hablara mientras ardía en la hoguera, y como ya no pueden quemar a la gente recurrirán al relativismo que dicen aborrecer diciendo que aquellos eran otros tiempos, relativizando hasta la palabra de Dios, que al parecer, va según los tiempos y los vientos. Pronto negarán su tenebrosa historia substituyendola por la más reciente versión, sobre la aculturación planificada de la sociedad. Por eso el papa se ha sometido a la Agenda 2030.