Forgotten commander

Under his command, Soviet divisions fought bravely and steadfastly in Ukraine in June-July 1941. Then they detained the enemy near Smolensk for two weeks, preventing them from taking control of the city and continuing the attack on Moscow. In October, dying under the German caterpillars tanks, more than a week chained considerable forces of the Nazis near Vyazma.

The general himself, who had gone through all the agony, trials and temptations of fascist captivity, even became a cripple, remained loyal to the oath. For his restoration in rank and service after the war, the most senior and illustrious marshals of the victorious army were busy. It was even made a collective petition of honored commanders for awarding the title Hero of the Soviet Union to the general.

He received the Golden Star, but posthumously, half a century after the Victory.

And today, one of a thousand knows about his feat ...

General "from the plow"

FUTURE Red Army General Mikhail Fedorovich Lukin was born on November 16 1892 in the village of Polukhino, Tver Province, in a peasant family. From the age of fourteen - “in people”, on earnings. From 1913 - in the army, from next year - in the trenches. In 1916, he graduated from the school of ensigns. And again to the front. He commanded a platoon, then a company in the Barclay de Tolly Xenumx Grenadier regiment of Nesvizh. For a year and a half, the officer service was awarded three military orders - St. Anne and St. Vladimir 4 degree, St. Stanislav 4 degree ... What else can be added to characterize the officer?

Then the October Revolution. The Bolsheviks, who came to power, are beginning to form a new army of new Russia. Lieutenant Lukin enters into it with the majority of the soldiers of his regiment, who trusted the commanding officer who came from the peasants without limit.

In the Red Army, Mikhail Fedorovich makes a dizzying career: in Civil, fighting against Denikin and the White Poles, he commanded a regiment and brigade, headed the division headquarters. In the year 1919 joins the party.

After the bloody feud had settled, he continued his military service. Before 1929, he was in military positions and in the Red Army command management. Then six years he commanded a division, and in 1935-m became the military commander of Moscow.

In the country and the army, the flywheel of repression gained momentum. In July, 1937, Mikhail Fedorovich was removed from office, and for six months he is at the disposal of the personnel department of the Red Army, languishing in obscurity regarding his future: among the colleagues and close friends of the division commander Lukin there were too many "enemies of the people" ...

However, Mikhail Fedorovich’s reputation was so flawless that, despite all the efforts of the investigating authorities, for him personally, the case ends with severe reprimands on the service and party lines “for blunting class vigilance”. That is - for misleading ...

In December, 1937-th Lukin is sent to Novosibirsk as deputy chief of staff of the Siberian military district. Soon he becomes chief of staff, and then deputy commander of the Siberian Military District.

At the end of 1939, Mikhail Fedorovich was given the rank of comcor, and in June 1940, after the re-evaluation of the top commanders of the Red Army, lieutenant-general, was appointed commander of the 16 army to the Trans-Baikal Military District.

In this rank and this position he met the Great Patriotic War. True, not in the Far East ...

Commander and without army commander

Just before the attack of Hitler's Germany, the command of the 16 Army received a directive on the transfer from Transbaikalia to the western borders of the Soviet Union. Commander Lukin left for Ukraine in advance to familiarize himself with the deployment areas of his regiments and divisions.
The news of the beginning of fascist aggression caught him in Vinnitsa. At this time, units of the 16 Army immersed in railway trains approached Berdichev, Proskurov, Staro-Konstantinov and Shepetovka by advanced forces, and the army’s rear forces had not yet crossed the Urals. That is, the commander met the war, in fact, without his army!

26 June Lukin received an order to reassign his troops from the Southwestern Western Front and to deploy an army in the Orsha and Smolensk areas. Therefore, I rushed to Shepetovka to stop unloading parts of my 5 mechanized corps there.

In this unimportant town of Podolia, where he turned out to be a senior military commander in terms of rank and position, the general found a flock of displaced units retreating from the border, hundreds of soldiers and commanders called up by local military enlistment offices. And a lot of representatives of the already fighting units that arrived for ammunition, weapons, fuel and food: in Shepetovka were warehouses of the Western Front.

What was the lieutenant general to do in this mess and confusion when the enemy’s reconnaissance units were already approaching the city, and he had an order in his pocket to urgently go down to Smolensk? You could just drop into the first eastbound train ...

But Mikhail Fedorovich, with a pistol in his hand, along with adjutant Lieutenant Sergey Prozorovsky, driver of the Red Army Nikolai Smurygin and two officers who joined him, he stood across the main city street and stopped the flow of military and non-military people.

The iron grasp of the commander of the First World War has affected: the formation of fighter units and subunits began in the courtyards and alleys, their commanders were appointed immediately, lists of personnel were compiled, and places were determined for occupying positions on the western outskirts of Shepetovka. And all this shapeless mass of frightened and confused people in their eyes began to turn into an organized armed force.

Having equipped his command post at the Shepetovka railway station, Lukin reported on the situation and the measures he was taking to the first deputy commander of the South-Western Front, Lieutenant General Yakovlev. And received from him all the necessary powers. Acting legally, Mikhail Fyodorovich canceled the loading into echelons of the 109 motorized rifle division, the 5 mechanized corps and the 116 th tank regiment. All these regular parts of the general moved to protect the city.

But that was only half the battle: huge, dimensionless front stores should be evacuated from Shepetivka. And Lukin grudgingly gave the order to withdraw all the trucks from the refugees, load them with ammunition and other military property and send them to Kiev. How many curses did the general listen to then! ..

The war has been going on for a week, and through Shepetovka from the central regions of the country continued to follow to Western Ukraine, trains loaded with tractors, combines, seeders, grain — all Soviet people helped the newly affiliated Ukrainian regions to establish a peaceful life ... Lukin ordered to dump all this agricultural property directly to the ground, load wagons and platforms with military supplies and send to the east.

But still it was a drop in the ocean. And then Mikhail Fedorovich, at his own risk and risk, gave the following orders to the chiefs of warehouses: not to deny everyone arriving from the front for ammunition, fuel, food, equipment, even if they do not have documents for receiving cargoes - to drive every car to capacity . And he gave the commissaries a clean cardboard card with his signature, stamped ...

Equally decisively, Lukin acted on the front line, where the German units continued to frantically rush to Shepetovka. For example, when the commander of the 109 motorized rifle division, Colonel Nikolai Krasnoretsky, was seriously wounded, the general ordered the regiment commander, lieutenant colonel Alexander Podoprigora, to take command. But on the same day, the regiment of Alexander Ilyich, having beaten off eight attacks, suffered terrible losses - about 85 percent of the personnel! And the regimental commander, although this was not his personal guilt, shot himself out of desperation.

The command personnel and fighters of the compound were demoralized. Then, in order to return people to faith in their own forces, the commander ... personally joined the command of the division! And, repelling the attacks of the Nazis, commanded it until a new divisional commander was appointed.

In general, at the end of the first week of the war, Lieutenant-General Lukin himself arbitrarily became the commander of the military task force created by him. And soon about her actions flashed meritorious mention in the reports of the headquarters of the South-Western Front, and even the Headquarters of the High Command.

Meanwhile, Mikhail Fedorovich, with all the directness, reported to the front headquarters that the Shepetovka task force was melting every day and was no longer able to replenish at the expense of units retreating or arriving in the city. Already neither valor, nor courage, nor selflessness of fighters and commanders will not help to hold positions longer, if the necessary quantity of fresh connections is not brought into battle.

Soon the 7 th infantry corps of Major General Dobroserdov arrived in the area. And the commander hurried under Smolensk to re-head his 16 th army.
But the Shepetovka, while Lukin defended it, the Germans could not take it! ..

Defense of Smolensk

He arrived at SMOLENSK on the morning of July 8 of the year 1941. And he found there only two divisions of his 16 army. All the other units, as the chief of staff, Colonel Shalin, who barely restrained his tears, reported to the commander, were transferred to the 20 Army, leading heavy fighting in the Orsha region. Mikhail Fedorovich literally dropped his hands from this news: how will he protect the city? ..

Feeling shamelessly robbed, Lukin nevertheless vigorously took up the preparation of the defense of Smolensk. Two of his divisions took up positions in the north-west of the city, covering the roads leading to the east and the most dangerous directions. But after a few days, from these divisions, the commander, on the orders of the commander-in-chief of the Western direction, Marshal Tymoshenko, had to allocate reinforced battalions and throw them west and south-west of Smolensk - at the line of the Svinaia river, in order to defend the flanks of the 20 units fighting there with the Smolensk militia battalions Army

On July 14, by order of the front commander to General Lukin, the 17 th mechanized corps was reassigned, but none of its units appeared in the 16 th army. The next day, as if having come to his senses, Marshal Timoshenko issued an order to transfer two divisions to Lukin from General Konev’s army.
And on the night of July 16, the Germans broke into Smolensk, on the move, taking possession of the southern part of the city. Do not blow Colonel Malyshev on the orders of Lukin Smolensk bridges, the Nazis could easily fly over the river - almost the entire garrison of the city fell in a night street battle ...

The road to Moscow was, in fact, open to the Nazis. But the seemingly doomed Smolensk Lukin held for two weeks, pulling everything he could to the city. It was rescued by the fact that some units promised by the front command began to arrive at his disposal. Plus, Lukin, using Shepetov's experience, reassigned himself to the remnants of all the regiments and battalions that had retreated east in the area of ​​his army.

Still, Smolensk, for whose defense Mikhail Fedorovich, by the way, was awarded the third order of the Red Banner, had to be left: by the end of July, the enemy managed to seize the ferry across the Dnieper east of the city, and Lukin’s army was threatened. The commander received an order to withdraw his troops to the new frontier.

He brilliantly carried out this maneuver, withdrawing regiments and divisions from enemy ticks with minimal losses. But he didn’t save himself: on August 2, at the crossing over the Dnieper, during a raid, a truck with a driver frantic for fear knocked the commander, smashing his left foot. From that day, Mikhail Fedorovich with great difficulty could move on his own, but refused to evacuate to the rear, taking the 19 army from General Konev, appointed commander of the Western Front ...

In the Vyazma pot

EARLY in the morning of October 2 1941, the Germans launched Operation Typhoon, the result of which was to be the seizure of the Soviet capital. And on October 9, Reichspress Attache Dietrich told reporters about the defeat of the main forces of the Western Russian Front. And he had all the reasons for this: in the Vyazma region, 19, 20, 24, 32-I armies and the group of General Boldin's troops were surrounded - in total more than half a million people with equipment, weapons and ammunition.

The day before, the military council of the Western Front, with its decision, put the commander of the 19 Army, Lieutenant-General Lukin, at the head of a blocked grouping, obliging him to organize a breakthrough from the environment by any means. This decision was approved by the Supreme Command. The telegram signed by Stalin, which was handed over to Mikhail Fedorovich, ended with the words: “If you don’t break through, there will be no one to defend Moscow and nothing. I repeat: there is nothing and nothing. ”

Lukin understood that the task before him was almost impossible. Unlike Smolensk, where its subordinate units were concentrated in one place, under Vyazma the surrounded armies were divided. Attempts to contact the commander-20, Lieutenant-General Ershakov and the commander-24, Major General Rakutin, were not crowned with success. There was also no connection with the operational group of Lieutenant General Boldin. And Mikhail Fedorovich made the optimal decision in that situation: to regroup and break through to the east north of Vyazma, in the direction of Gzhatsk.

It was possible to break the encirclement ring south of Bogoroditsky. As soon as the commander of the 91 Infantry Division, Colonel Volkov, reported to Lieutenant-General Lukin about the breakthrough of the encirclement ring, he immediately ordered to start the movement of rear units, hospitals and headquarters.

But it was impossible to fully ensure the exit of troops: the enemy quickly figured out the situation, lit up the breakthrough section with hundreds of missiles and opened hurricane fire at the columns of our formations. Everything was mixed, the control of the troops was completely lost.

On October 12, Lukin radioed General of the Army Zhukov, who had just assumed command of the Western Front: “The ring of encirclement closed again. All attempts to contact Ershakov and Rakutin do not have success, where and what they do, we do not know. The shells are running out. There is no fuel. On the same day, the commander was seriously wounded in his right hand: a bullet cut through two tendons, and the general's hand completely immobilized.

On the night of October 13, Mikhail Fedorovich convened a military council. After a detailed discussion of the current situation, it was decided to blow up all the artillery, machine to burn, ammunition, food to be distributed in parts and make way in the south direction in two groups, one of which was to be headed by Lieutenant General Lukin, the second by Lieutenant General Boldin.

At dawn 14 October, the commander gave the order to start the movement - the remnants of the 19 army went on their last breakthrough campaign.

And the evening of October 17, Mikhail Fedorovich, met on a soldier's bed in a German field hospital: he, who had barely regained consciousness after multiple shrapnel and bullet wounds, was being prepared for an amputation operation ...

“They took not my body, but my corpse!”

In 1943 of the YEAR, the Nazis, who had already begun to recruit the crippled general, allowed the captive commander to send a letter to his sister, who was then in occupied Kharkov. In it, Mikhail Fedorovich described in some detail the circumstances of his capture. Here are some excerpts from that letter.

“The Germans wrote in their newspapers that I, the commander of the 19 Army, Lieutenant General Lukin, was taken prisoner, but they did not write in what condition. They took not me, but my dead body! And since they have written in their newspapers, it means that they know ours too, and this can be the basis for the repression of my family. But I am clean before the Motherland and my people, I fought to the last possible opportunity, and did not surrender to captivity, but they took me barely alive.

... The enemy never broke through the front of my army. My army was surrounded. I did not have a single projectile, there was no fuel in the cars, we with some machine guns and rifles tried to break through. I and the commanders of my headquarters all the time were in the chain, along with the Red Army men. I could leave, as some parts of my army managed to do, but I could not leave to the mercy, without command, a large part of the army. The interests of the common cause were dear to me, not personal life. When I failed to break through, I, having blown up all the artillery and destroying all the machines, decided to leave the encirclement in small groups.

... After another wound, blood is flowing in a stream, they can't stop it, and the Germans are taking steps in 200. The first thought is to run. I got up, took a few steps, fell because of weakness: I lost a lot of blood, my left leg started to hurt from a long walk, had not healed properly, and had not slept at all for several days. The thought of captivity flashes, but I am horrified by it. I am trying to get a revolver from my holster with my left hand - I will not give up alive, the last bullet to myself.

All attempts to remove the revolver fail. The right hand hangs like a whip. Two nurses came up, took off their overcoat, cut the sleeve of the tunic, cut off a rag from the shirt and bandaged it, took me by the arms and led me away. 5 steps were not passed, as I was wounded by shell fragments again: in the right leg, above the knee and in the calf. I cannot go further, I ask them to get me a revolver in order to end my own life. But it turned out that he was lost in the confusion at the place where they tied me up.

... wandered for two more days. I feel that I am becoming a burden to others. The idea of ​​suicide does not leave, I think, sooner or later I will have to do it.

... Shooting is very close, the Germans appeared in the steps of 50. Shot, and again I was wounded in the right leg, in the knee of a bursting bullet. Fell My boot was quickly filled with blood. I feel, I start to lose consciousness. Forces leave.

I ask the Red Army men who were nearby to shoot me before the Germans approached, saying that I am still not a tenant, and that they should relieve me of the shame. No one dared.

... I remember how the Germans approached and began fumbling through their pockets. Lost consciousness. I came to myself - I do not understand where I am. No pain, anesthesia works. The doctor enters, throws off the blanket. I see no right foot. Everything is clear: I am a prisoner in a German hospital. The brain starts to work feverishly: captive, no legs, my right arm is killed, my army is dead. A shame! I don't want to live. There are terrible physical pains. Temperature over forty. I do not sleep for several days. Nayavu hallucinate ... ".

The fate of Mikhail Fedorovich could have been different. But the Wehrmacht high command already after a few hours became aware of the capture of the Soviet lieutenant general. And his fate was taken under the personal control of Field Marshal von Bock.
It is not every day that war commanders are captured in war, even if they are dying ...

Commander and captive commander

AFTER the German field hospital near Vyazma, General Lukin was transferred to the hospital for especially valuable captured Red Army commanders in Smolensk.
However, this institution could only be called a hospital conditionally. The wounded were handed over to the prisoners by the Nazis. The medicines were mined independently, on the bases of the former Soviet medical battalions. During one of the dressings, Lukin witnessed how the injured colonel Myagkov amputated his shin — not just without anesthesia: the colonel himself assisted the surgeon and held his leg during the operation ...

Only in February 1942 of the year did Mikhail Fedorovich feel more or less tolerable. He was transported to Germany, to the camp of Luckenwald, which was located fifty kilometers south of Berlin. And immediately over it "took the patronage" of the special services of the Third Reich. SS Standards Zorn and Erzhman, Colonel of the Army General Staff Kremer, constantly worked with him. All in vain.

Then compatriots were admitted to Lukin: the commander of the army tried to persuade the former officer of the special department of his own 19 army Ivakin, the chief of staff of the 19 army kombrig Malyshkin to betrayal. I met with Lukin and lieutenant-general Vlasov who had surrendered to captivity, who offered Mikhail Fedorovich to head the military leadership of the Russian liberation army and insisted that he was ready to retain only political leadership in the "struggle with the Stalinist regime."

All were refused - the commander remained loyal to the Motherland and the oath ...

It is noteworthy that all this time the wife of General Nadezhda Methodius Lukina continued to work in the People's Commissariat of Defense. In November, 1943, she was summoned to the Lubyanka and officially announced that her husband, who was missing, was in captivity. Then ... let go in peace, not even dismissing from service! The case is almost the only history War.

In winter, 1944, Lukin was transferred to the fortress of Wulzburg, where he was held with several more “obstinate” generals of the Red Army and seamen of Soviet merchant ships captured by the Germans on June 22 and 1941 in the ports of Stettin and Danzig.

In this fortress, Mikhail Fedorovich and other prisoners saw for the first time a new Soviet military uniform - they were thrown into the cell by a shot down pilot Nikolai Vlasov, a Hero of the Soviet Union, shot down in battle. It was Lukin Vlasov who, a few days before the execution, handed over his Golden Star No. 756. Her commander subsequently handed over to representatives of the Soviet command, which to a large extent contributed to the preservation of the honest name of the executed officer. You can bow your head before this general ...

With the approach of American troops, the Germans decided to take the prisoners from Wuerzburg to the camp of Mossburg. There their 8 May 1945, and the Allied forces liberated. And in June, General Lukin and several other prisoners were transferred to the Soviet consulate in Paris.

Forgiven and forgotten

It is well known that after the war in our country the attitude towards those who had been in captivity for many years was, to put it mildly, not unambiguous. But commander Lukin, this bowl at first seemed to have passed.

Mikhail Fedorovich was placed in the special camp of the NKVD. The process of his rehabilitation was accelerated by Marshal Konev, commander in chief of the Central Group of Occupation Forces. At the end of September 1945, he flew to Moscow on official business and, being at Stalin's reception, raised the question of Lukin. The Generalissimo requested the personal affairs of the commander and the test results, on which 3 of October was inscribed with his own hand: “A dedicated man. In the rank to restore, the service is not infringed. If you wish, send to study. ”

Everything seemed to be getting better in the fate of the commander. But it was only after the loss of the party membership card that Lukin was considered automatically dismissed from the Communist Party. Now not everyone is able to understand what it meant.

In the People's Commissariat of Defense, Mikhail Fedorovich was offered the posts of head of advanced training courses for the commanders of Vystrel and the head of the Main Directorate of military schools. But in the Central Committee of the CPSU (b), despite the fact that all pre-war and military awards were returned to General Lukin, and in 1946, he was awarded the Orders of Lenin and the Red Banner, none of the appointments was approved - non-partisan! And in October, 1947 was quietly dismissed for health reasons ...

In 1966, the marshals of Tymoshenko, Zhukov, Konev and Yeremenko, together with Army General Kurochkin, applied to the government with a petition for conferring the title Hero of the Soviet Union to Lukin. It was not supported: Lukin all the time commanded the defending armies, and it was not accepted to hand the Golden Star to the military leaders for operations that did not end in victory.

6 of May 1970 of the year in the Literary Gazette published an article by Georgy Zhukov, in which Marshal of Victory wrote about Lukin: “I felt and feel a sense of admiration for the man’s resilience and courage. He suffered a heavy military hard times, painful physical suffering and remained the same as he was always - a modest, laconic, true hero of World War II.
And on May 25, the heart of the commander stopped beating ...

The title of Hero of the Russian Federation to Lieutenant General MF Lukin was awarded only in October 1993 of the year. Posthumously.

Comments

[vylvyn]

Just like in the song (I drank birch sap in the spring forest) - But only does the Motherland recognize one of her missing sons?

[klimpopov]

It is for such people that the Golden Star of the Hero of the Soviet Union is needed. For this hero defended precisely the Soviet homeland !!!

I really liked the article - thanks to the author!

[Ross]

klimpopov,
I am joining! Good and instructive article. Real heroes are often in the shadows.

[predator.2]

excellent article! I hope the author will tell about other commanders and commanders of 1941. how many of them are undeservedly forgotten, because not only Zhukov, Konev, Rokossovsky fought and defended the capital, there were other fronts.

[censor1966]

I advise you to read Lieutenant General Petrova "The Past with Us", book 1 and 2 .... many forgotten are mentioned!

[vezunchik]

In the People's Commissariat of Defense, Mikhail Fedorovich was offered the posts of head of advanced training courses for the commanders of Vystrel and the head of the Main Directorate of military schools. But in the Central Committee of the CPSU (b), despite the fact that all pre-war and military awards were returned to General Lukin, and in 1946, he was awarded the Orders of Lenin and the Red Banner, none of the appointments was approved - non-partisan! And in October, 1947 was quietly dismissed for health reasons ...
Neither Stalin nor Putin are to blame - and those officials who surround them ....

[Taratut]

However, the reputation of Mikhail Fedorovich was so impeccable that, despite all the efforts of the investigating authorities, for him personally the case ends with severe reprimands on the official and party lines "for dulling class vigilance."
It’s funny. A reputation would help there.
Influential defenders were simply found. And the threat of arrest was real.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Taratut

Influential defenders were simply found. And the threat of arrest was real.

Stalin did not reach!

[Squelcher]

The king is made by his retinue, if the king begins to rule the retinue, then he automatically becomes a despot and tyrant ... An example is what they say about Stalin.

[JonnyT]

These are the people and Russia is strong! A simple man from a simple family! For which the concept of homeland and honor is not an empty phrase!

[predator.2]

the commander tried to persuade the former operative officer of the special department of his 19th army Ivakin, chief of staff of the 19th army brigade commander Malyshkin to betrayal.
But these Judas, too, need to know how many Vlasov had them?

[veteran66]

Quote: JonnyT

A simple man from a simple family! For which the concept of homeland and honor is not an empty phrase!

but for a person from a noble family, the concept of Homeland and honor is an empty phrase, in your opinion? But what about the heroes of the Patriotic War of 1812 or WWI, how many were there before October 17th, as well as later years?

[Taratut]

But Lukin is just an interesting figure.
read "PROTOCOL OF INTERROGATION OF LIEUTENANT GENERAL OF THE RED ARMY MF Lukin December 14, 1941
Yas generally agreed with him, but Stalin would definitely have shot him for such revelations.
http://svyatopolk-70.livejournal.com/8239.html

[Lech e-mine]

HA- I myself can come up with dozens of protocols of your interrogation in the dungeons of the BLOODED GABNE and put it on the Internet and immediately become a Nobel Prize laureate.
Please do not be offended - I just defend the GOOD NAME of General LUKIN (alas, he himself CAN’t do this anymore)

[Taratut]

Well, you give.
Do you seriously think that I composed this?
Or the Germans - to defame the hero?
But this would make sense either for propaganda purposes, or to encourage cooperation and leak information. There was neither one nor the other.
Or did he write the notorious Yakovlev together with the Katyn folder and secret protocols?
Okay. Amuse yourself with any illusions; here the mind is powerless.
I am an old veteran of historical forums. and so no Stalinist questioned this document. Apparently, because there are Stalinists who are less aware and know what should not be declared so as not to become a laughing stock.

[Lech e-mine]

To an old veteran of historical forums, not a single Stalinist will even even examine your fake.
I’m just starting from common sense. A man (LUKIN) has been watching death in the face, lost his leg in battle, and you are trying to convince me with this fake that LUKIN was sold to Fascists.
Mr. TARATUT, with all due respect to your person, I CAN’T AGREE WITH YOUR FALSE.

[Taratut]

You write nonsense.
Yes, how many of them - order bearers and generals - served Hitler. Even Heroes of the Soviet Union came across.
And why - sold out?
I don’t consider a prisoner of war who joined the ROA a traitor. We entered so that in the camp we would not bend over from hunger, and then run across to our own people. The Germans understood this and practically did not use them against the Red Army.
What are my speculations about?
Could Lukin betray because a good man? And what is Vlasov bad? Is he worse than Lukin?

[Lech e-mine]

You just have rubbish. Lukin to compare with Trusom Vlasov incorrectly-trust in your protocols of interrogation of Lukin is not, as I already explained to you.
Purely psychologically, LUKIN IS NOT THE PERSON WHO IS GOING FOR COOPERATION WITH THE ENEMY - IT IS DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND BY virtue of your liberal beliefs.

[Taratut]

Quote: Leha e-mine

It’s not correct to compare Lukin with Vlasov’s coward

Why is Vlasov a coward? Is he worse than Lukin?

Quote: Leha e-mine

Psychologically, LUKIN IS NOT THE PERSON WHO IS GOING FOR COOPERATION WITH THE ENEMY

Well well.
"Among the pilots -" Ostfligers "were two Heroes of the Soviet Union: the fighter captain Semyon Trofimovich Bychkov, who served before in the 937th IAP, who had two Orders of the Red Banner and distinguished himself at the front back in 1941, and the attack aircraft Senior Lieutenant Bronislav Romanovich Antilevsky, who received the Gold Star for the Finnish campaign. "
Here it is more or less accessible about the reasons for how people found themselves in the camp of the enemy.
http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/roa/roa.html
You are unlikely to know, but even in 1945 the defectors continued to flee to the Germans. It is hard to believe - but they even fled to the ring of Stalingrad - to the fascists already surrounded.

[Lech e-mine]

There are exceptions to every rule.
Vlasov is a coward. THE HISTORY OF HIS DELIVERY TO PERSONS TO GERMANS IS WIDELY KNOWN. As for the pilots you have indicated, this does not mean that it was general in nature.
Well, about Ha-Ha defectors - you yourself know that on the eve of the war on JUNE 22, 1941, a German soldier ran over to us - HOW TO EXPLAIN IT.

[Taratut]

During the whole war only a few people ran to us.
But the protocol of the interrogation of another general - Major General Krupennikov, This is the commander of the 3rd Guards Army.
“Krupennikov sharply criticized the occupation policy of the Germans in the east and said that the Germans were making a“ cardinal mistake ”, relying in the war against the Soviet Union“ only on the forces of their own army ”. Without excluding the possibility of forming a Russian volunteer army from prisoners of the Red Army in order to fight against the Soviet regime, he considered the creation of a political base for such Russian-German cooperation a prerequisite for this. Germany, he said, must prove to the peoples of Russia that it regards them not as "inferior colonial peoples", but as "equal members of the European family of peoples." First of all, in his opinion, it was necessary to form an independent Russian government ...
In this case, according to the general, one could count on "a large influx of volunteers from prisoner of war camps." Of the Soviet officers who were in German captivity, "70%, according to him, are ready to fight against the Soviet system."
http://liewar.ru/content/view/183/3

[Lech e-mine]

LIES .not really seriously, you can believe this

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Leha e-mine

Vlasov is a coward.

polygamist and traitor!

[kov]

also an interesting fact

[Ascetic]

Quote: kov

also an interesting fact

My maternal grandfather, the senior political instructor (deputy political officer of a separate reconnaissance battalion), died near Smolensk in August 1941, covering with the platoon of reconnaissance volunteers the battalion’s exit from the encirclement. The entire platoon died. As stated in the report fell the death of the brave on the battlefield.

[Karlsonn]

kov ,
right now, someone will tell the terrible TRUTH that it was not the political instructor who raised the soldiers to attack, but the NKVD detachment with machine guns that forced them.

[Andy]

his son or grandson told what he wanted to pin up - you, the tsarist officer did swear allegiance to the tsar, and served in the Red Army. He received a clear answer - he gave the oath to the tsar and the Fatherland, the king denied, and the Fatherland remained. it was in the documentary about the Vyazma boiler

[Taratut]

I understand that people who are not in the know and know the history is unimportant, now give birth to phrases like "these are the people that support Russia."
Well, here's a quote from Lukin’s interrogation.
"You talk about the liberation of the peoples of Russia from the Bolshevik system and about a new order for the future Europe, but at the same time you say that only Russians are carriers of Bolshevism, and Ukrainians, for example, are not. This is nonsense. Bolshevism is as alien to the Russian people as it is to the Ukrainians. ....
The communists promised the peasants land, and the workers - factories and factories, so the people supported them. Of course, this was a terrible mistake, because today the peasant, in comparison with the past, has nothing at all. When there is nothing to eat and there is constant fear of the system, then, of course, the Russians would be very grateful for the destruction and deliverance of the Stalinist regime. ..
Beginning in September of this year, 150 new rifle divisions were formed on the Volga and east of the Volga, and possibly more, but not less than 150. We ourselves had to send some commanders and commissars from our army for these new divisions. In 4–5 months, these divisions will either finish their formation or will already be at the front. They will have tanks. A friend of mine told me that 60 tanks are being built daily, later this number will be increased to 80. This, including the factories of Leningrad and those plants that have been evacuated to the east of the country. The main types of tanks under construction T-34 and KV ...
This year you created the Ministry for Eastern Territory Affairs, which helps only you. However, if an alternative Russian government is nevertheless created, many Russians will think about the following: firstly, an anti-Stalinist government will appear that will advocate for Russia, and secondly, they can believe that the Germans really fight only against the Bolshevik system and not against Russia, and thirdly, they will see that there are Russians on your side who are not against Russia, but for Russia. Such a government could be a new hope for the people. Maybe, like me, other generals also think; I know some of them who really do not like communism, but today they cannot do anything else but to support it. ”
That is, the idea of ​​the Vlasov movement was largely presented by Lukin.
Do you seriously think that when interrogated by the Nazis, this is how patriots behave?

[Andy]

"It's a fake. But in war, all is fair."
you wrote it yourself yesterday, they say the Soviet agitation ... but today you unconditionally believe, maybe from what is written here by the enemy?

[8 company]

Quote: Taratut

the communists promised the peasants land, and the workers - factories and factories, so the people supported them. Of course, this was a terrible mistake, because today the peasant, in comparison with the past, has nothing at all. In the best case, the collective farmer in Siberia receives 4 kg of bread per day, and the average wage of a worker is 300-500 rubles per month, for which he can’t buy anything

Vlasov spoke out in exactly the same way, moreover, after his arrest in 1945, during interrogations. With all the truth of these statements, there is no reason to justify Vlasov’s betrayal. If you are so principled, you had to act during dispossession, collectivization, mass hunger, mass repressions. And then it turns out - he waited for the arrival of the external enemy and stood on his side, squinting under the principal opposition. Not a ride, however, a traitor is a traitor.

[vezunchik]

the commander remained faithful to the Motherland and the oath ...
In 91 of these there were not many ...

[Lech e-mine]

YOU ALWAYS speak on behalf of Goebels - the quotes you quoted more closely resemble the lies that the Hitlerites spread in order to defame OUR HEROES.
Lukin did not break well, he fought while there were strength.
He and thousands of his comrades detained the FASCIST MILITARY MACHINE-
gave precious time to our country to recover after the shocking blow of the FASCIS on JUNE 22, 1941.

[Volkhov]

This is not a direct speech, but an essay in the style of German intelligence reviews. It doesn’t seem like the truth, because he was surrounded, he was treated in captivity, and here it was as if he was supplied with reports on both sides. Rather, the intrigues of the KGB or political workers.

[xan]

he behaved like a patriot - he was not at a loss and sensibly commanded troops, he won his war in the 41st. And in captivity you can write anything you want, a language without bones. Did he give out military secrets?
how should a patriot behave during interrogation? to throw at investigators with the words "For Stalin"?

[Taratut]

Quote: xan

And in captivity you can write anything you want, a language without bones. Did he give out military secrets?
how should a patriot behave during interrogation? to throw at investigators with the words "For Stalin"?

I wonder how our notebook patriots will respond to your comment.
However, the interest is purely clinical - they can do this and that.

[omsbon]

Then compatriots were allowed to Lukin: the commander of the special staff of the 19th Army Ivakin, the chief of staff of the 19th Army, the brigade commander Malyshkin, tried to persuade the commander to betray.

The betrayal of some reveals heroism and fidelity to the duty of others. It is a pity that the honored Star of the Hero so late found her gentleman!

[Yarbay]

*** The Generalissimo requested the personal file of the commander and the results of the check, on which on October 3 he inscribed with his own hand: “A devoted man. In the rank to restore, do not infringe on the service. If he wants, send him to study ”*** - he knew what he was saying!

[Taratut]

It turns out that Stalin's plan was not fulfilled.
It did not work out with any service.
The book of Shtrik-Shtrikfeld, who oversaw the creation of the Vlasov army, provides an episode of the meeting between Lukin and Vlasov.
Lukin asked Vlasov
- Are you sure that Hitler will go to the creation of the Russian state?
Vlasov replied that he was not sure.
“Then I have nothing to do in your army,” Lukin answered and returned to the camp.

[wax]

"Shtrik-Shtrikfeld" - very authoritatively figured out where to Stalin and Zhukov. Don't make people laugh.

[Alone]

Do not tell me the name of this work of art?

[Karlsonn]

Yarbay ,
let me add, when Stalin in 1945 learned about the release of Lukin, he told Konev:
- Give Lukin thanks for Moscow.

as for the interrogation protocol presented by Taratut, I will allow myself to speak:
- this is a remake - fake!
Does Taratut really think that by filtering SMERSH, or later on under the watchful eye of the NKVD -...- KGB Lukin could have avoided being shot if there were recorded traitorous conversations?
I’m sometimes surprised at such schizophrenia, sometimes they shout at all angles about the ubiquity of bloody gebni, or they present evidence that the gebnea ignored.

[Astartes]

I was especially amused by the expression "Russians" is a general modern invention))

[Taratut]

Quote: Karlsonn

this is a remake - fake!

You will somehow express your opinion. Arguments, pliz.
On August 31, 1945, State Security General Abakumov wrote to Stalin: “As for Lieutenant General Lukin M.F. - the former commander of the 19th Army, for whom there are materials about his anti-Soviet activities, but, given that as a result of the wound, he remained crippled (his arm was paralyzed and his leg was amputated) .. no materials have been obtained during the verification process. I would consider it expedient to "release him and provide undercover surveillance."
“The testimony of those arrested by the Smersh General Directorate of one of the leaders of the NTSNP of the white emigrant Brunst, the traitor Vlasov’s homeland and the former head of the courses ml. lieutenants of the 33rd army of Minaev, it is established that Lukin, while in the fall of 1942 in a prisoner of war camp in the cities of Tsitenhorst and Vustrau, showed anti-Soviet sentiments regarding collectivization of agriculture, the punitive policy of the Soviet government and slandered the leaders of the CPSU (b) and the Soviet government. "Lukin, being questioned on this issue, denies the criminal connection with these persons and the anti-Soviet activities he carries out."

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Taratut

State Security General Abakumov wrote to Stalin

link please.

Quote: Taratut

regarding which there are materials about his anti-Soviet activities

Quote: Taratut

in the process of checking any materials not yet
mined.

that is, Abakumov reports that there were materials at the beginning of the audit, and by the end of the audit they disappeared, who do you want to expose as an idiot - Stalin or Abakumov?

Quote: Taratut

White emigrant Brunst, the traitor to the homeland of Vlasov and the former head of the courses ml. lieutenants of the 33-th army of Minaev

in addition to the request for reference, I note that these creatures did not have faith before the execution, for this they checked everything and as we see everything installed.

Quote: Taratut

Lukin, being interrogated on this issue, denies the criminal connection with these persons and the anti-Soviet activities he conducts.

what arguments we have the presumption of innocence, you need to prove that Lukin was a cowardly coward, but for now I will read the links and decide what I believe and what not; at the moment I see only how you are trying to denigrate the name of a worthy person, relying on it is not known what arguments and where taken, whose authenticity, bias and truthfulness has not been proven and if you put aside the brackets from which the scribes took the interrogation protocol in 1990's and how overlooked in 1945, then provide evidence that the protocol is genuine.

[Taratut]

Quote: Karlsonn

link please

For example, here
http://kprf.ru/rus_soc/105349.html

Quote: Karlsonn

that is, Abakumov reports that there were materials at the beginning of the audit, and by the end of the audit they disappeared

In fact, Abakumov is wondering whether intimidation measures should be applied to the cripple. The fact that Lukin denies the facts would not stop anyone. And why install surveillance if nothing has been confirmed?

Quote: Karlsonn

provide evidence that the protocol is genuine

Maybe you confirm that he is a fake?
In general, it is believed that after publication in leading historical journals, the document is put into circulation.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Taratut

http://kprf.ru/rus_soc/105349.html

This link clearly shows that you pulled out quotes that suit you from the text and cited them as an example in such a way that their meaning in the outline of the text took on exactly the opposite character.
as an example

Quote: Taratut

The book of Shtrik-Shtrikfeld, who oversaw the creation of the Vlasov army, provides an episode of the meeting between Lukin and Vlasov.
Lukin asked Vlasov
- Are you sure that Hitler will go to the creation of the Russian state?
Vlasov replied that he was not sure.
“Then I have nothing to do in your army,” Lukin answered and returned to the camp.

quote from your link:
On 25 of May 1945, the words of the traitor Vlasov about a meeting in a German concentration camp with Lukin were entered: “After I set out the purpose of my visit to him, he alone with me said that he didn’t believe the Germans, they would not serve, and did not accept my offer . Having failed, I no longer addressed any of the prisoners of war of the Red Army. ”

Lukin spoke about a conversation with him in January 1943: “Vlasov pulled the paper out of his pocket and handed it to me with a theatrical gesture:“ Please read, Mr. General! ”... I silently took the paper and began to read. It was the so-called “Appeal to the Russian people” .... “So what?” I asked, having finished reading. “Please sign this paper! - Vlasov solemnly proclaimed. “You are honored to be the commander of the ROA!” “That's what, Vlasov,” I said loudly, so that they would hear me in the next room, which, as I knew, were my captives, generals and senior officers of the Soviet Army . - ... Now I am no longer interested in the question of how you received the party ticket and why you wore it. In my eyes you are just a traitor and a traitor, and that gang of renegades that you will gain under your inglorious banner will also not be an army, but a bunch of traitors. ”

Quote: Taratut

Maybe you confirm that he is a fake?

You say that Lukin is a cowardly coward; therefore, you need to prove the authenticity of the protocol!

[Taratut]

Quote: Karlsonn

This link clearly shows that you pulled out quotes that suit you from the text and cited them as an example in such a way that their meaning in the outline of the text took on exactly the opposite character.

But the point is not to find like-minded people. Just the author mentions this document. That is, I did not invent it.

Quote: Karlsonn

quote from your link

So what? I did not claim that Lukin joined the ROA.

Quote: Karlsonn

You say that Lukin is a cowardly coward; therefore, you need to prove the authenticity of the protocol!

I am not saying anything. Just gave food for thought. There is such information. So is the hero Lukin? Question.
But Lieutenant General Kachalov, slandered by Stalin, is a hero.
"The commander of the 28th Army, Lieutenant General Kachalov, being surrounded with the headquarters of the group of forces, showed cowardice and surrendered to the German fascists. The headquarters of the Kachalov group came out of the encirclement, parts of the Kachalov group made their way out, and Lieutenant General Kachalov preferred to surrender captured, preferred to desert to the enemy .... "
First, surrender and desert various things. Secondly, the general died in battle. This did not save his family from repression.
But you won’t want to discuss Kachalov. This is a spot on the beloved leader.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Taratut

That is, I did not invent it.

others invented this fake, and you use it as an argument.

Quote: Taratut

I did not claim that Lukin joined the ROA.

in the text, as I indicated, there is evidence of a conversation between Vlasov and Lukin: Vlasov himself, Lukin and Shtrik-Shtrikfeld. You have chosen one that discredits Lukin’s honor, the testimonies of the conversation participants themselves, where there is nothing discrediting Lukin, you ignored, as it was inconvenient for you, thereby distorting the meaning of the text you are referring to.

Quote: Taratut

Just gave food for thought. There is such information. So is the hero Lukin?

You made a provocative throw in your first comment about the fact that Lukin is a cowardly coward, using unintelligible arguments, this is not much different from distant thoughts, doesn't it seem so to you?

Quote: Taratut

But you won’t want to discuss Kachalov.

Well, why, make a release for convenience and then we’ll discuss it all together.

Quote: Taratut

This is a spot on the beloved leader.

many have tried and are trying to tarnish his memory; it turns out badly.

[Taratut]

Quote: Karlsonn

others invented this fake, and you use it as an argument

Argument WHAT?
He gave information that there is such data. Infa, as you see, was also in possession of the NKVD. That is, something there was unclean.

You have chosen one that discredits Lukin’s honor, the testimonies of the conversation participants themselves, where there is nothing discrediting Lukin, you ignored, as it was inconvenient for you, thereby distorting the meaning of the text you are referring to.

Quote: Karlsonn

You have chosen one that discredits Lukin’s honor, the testimonies of the conversation participants themselves, where there is nothing discrediting Lukin, you ignored, as it was inconvenient for you, thereby distorting the meaning of the text you are referring to.

What I wrote speaks for itself. Details are superfluous. That is, Lukin’s refusal was not unconditional.

You made a provocative throw in your first comment about the fact that Lukin is a cowardly coward, using unintelligible arguments

Quote: Karlsonn

You made a provocative throw in your first comment about the fact that Lukin is a cowardly coward, using unintelligible arguments

If the protocol of the interrogation and Abakumov’s letter are nonsense, I don’t know what the arguments are.

Quote: Karlsonn

many have tried and are trying to tarnish his memory; it turns out badly.

Why bad? The fact that Stalin is a criminal is officially recognized.

[Pushkar]

Taratut,
If the protocol of the interrogation and Abakumov’s letter are nonsense, I don’t know what the arguments are. Quote in full. Abakumov writes: "According to the testimony of the traitor to the homeland Vlasov ..." etc. You lie a lot, mr.The fact that Stalin is a criminal is officially recognized. Khrushchev, or what? The fact that the execution lists were Stalin and hopak entertained?

[Karlsonn]

there is an alternative reality, I answer this provocateur, because they got it with their lies.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Taratut

Infa, as you see, was also in possession of the NKVD

and the NKVD regretted Lukin do not tell me fairy tales I’m great-grandson, grandson and son of a security officer, there would be the slightest suspicion of Lukin’s sincerity - we would not talk about this topic.

Quote: Taratut

That is, Lukin’s refusal was not unconditional.

You insult those who answer, you personally cannot! I will answer for them when you denigrate a person’s name, be prepared to argue this and with documents otherwise you can not only sue! but also answer with your honor.

Quote: Taratut

If the interrogation protocol and the letter of Abakumov

the authenticity of the protocol, you have not proven, and in citing the report of Abakumov, an outright falsity is visible.

Quote: Taratut

The fact that Stalin is a criminal is officially recognized.

by whom? fascists? Goebbels will shake your hand, as if I were to reduce it.

[Taratut]

Quote: Karlsonn

I’m great-grandson, grandson and son of a security officer, there would be the slightest suspicion of Lukin’s sincerity - we would not talk about this topic.

Well, you are the grandchildren of the Chekists and give. The slightest suspicion - and to the wall?

Quote: Karlsonn

the authenticity of the protocol, you have not proved, and in citing the report of Abakumov, an outright falsity is visible

My business is to indicate the sources. Proving is in court, not in a forum.

Quote: Karlsonn

eat? fascists? Goebbels will shake your hand, as if I were to reduce it.

Russian state. Both Medvedev and Putin spoke on this subject.

[ikrut]

Well you, Karlson, this "lover of truth and old forumchanin" - "face and in g and out", Well done! Shake your hand.

[Karlsonn]

the bad thing is that there are such among us such as he went to the policemen, and then - - - stained, they did not disdain punitive expeditions.

[Lech e-mine]

POLICE AND CITIES OF SMOLENSK — I hope that these g .... avnyuki were hanged.

[Bigriver]

You will somehow express your opinion. Arguments, pliz.

Not at the address, but, can I?
You, as an old participant in various historical forums must know how the document differs from .., the non-document, than the source from the misinformation.
All of your links are not sources. And Shtrik - Shtrik is not a source.
Source has:
- name of archive
- fund
- inventory
- document
-sheet.
In the publications of this interrogation in the internet, some mention the Bundesarchive.
But, there are no links to the source.
Consequently - disinformation and remake.
In general, there is a lot of interesting things in this, so-called, "interrogation".
Even the simplest linguistic analysis suggests that this is not an interrogation, but written and edited material.

[Taratut]

Good. Let's do it. I agree that this protocol is des. (I hope Abakumov’s letter is not a disinformation?)
Then the Katyn Special Folder and the secret protocol we will recognize as documents. There and inventory, and the folder and everything you need.

[Bigriver]

Taratut
(I hope Abakumov’s letter is not a disinformation?)

I have no idea. This is a question for historians who should study the issue.
And since the topic is rather narrow, it does not draw on a monograph, I doubt very much that this issue will soon be clarified.
I got here, the other day, to one book: "Declassified summer of 1941: a collection of documents and materials." Basically, the archives of TsAMO and RGVA.
There are reports of Abakumov. Offhand, if you compare the style of presentation of materials to Stalin and the General Staff, then what you quoted is some kind of children's talk.
Well, read it yourself. What is this, writes a whole colonel-general, head of the Smersh GUK?

"As for Lieutenant General Lukin M.F. - former commander of the 19th army, concerning which there are materials about his anti-Soviet activities, but considering that as a result of the wound, he remained a cripple (his arm was paralyzed and his leg was amputated), .. in the process of checking any materials not yet mined..."

This is some student writing, confused in two thoughts and three words.

[Aleksys2]

Quote: Taratut

“The testimony of those arrested by the Smersh General Directorate of one of the leaders of the NTSNP of the white emigrant Brunst, the traitor Vlasov’s homeland and the former head of the courses ml. lieutenants of the 33rd army of Minaev, it is established that Lukin, while in the fall of 1942 in a prisoner of war camp in the cities of Tsitenhorst and Vustrau, showed anti-Soviet sentiments regarding collectivization of agriculture, the punitive policy of the Soviet government and slandered the leaders of the CPSU (b) and the Soviet government. "Lukin, being questioned on this issue, denies the criminal connection with these persons and the anti-Soviet activities he carries out."

Of course, after you poke something into something, you can edit the post and add something because of which you poked.

[Taratut]

Quote: Astartes

I was especially amused by the expression "Russians" is a general modern invention.

You know a lot.
"I am not Russian, but Russian. Now
I say free and strong;
I grew like a green oak on top,
I was given water from the rivers of Russia. "
MUST KARIM.

The poem "I am a Russian!" was written in 1952

[Yarbay]

Quote: Karlsonn

let me add, when Stalin in 1945 learned about the release of Lukin, he told Konev:
- Give Lukin thanks for Moscow.

In general, Stalin, like any real leader, knew how to value devotees people and not lizoblyudov and knew how to distinguish them !!
and he didn’t forget the good, but he didn’t forgive the bad!
For example, at one time the maker of the Democratic Republic of Azerbaijan Mammadamin Rassulzade saved Stalin from arrest and hid in his home! After years, Stalin did not touch him and advised him to leave for Turkey!

Quote: Karlsonn

under the watchful eye of the NKVD -...- KGB Lukin could have avoided being shot had recorded traitorous conversations?

Moreover, for smaller offenses in captivity a person was punished!

Quote: Karlsonn

- this is a remake - fake!

Sure !!

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Yarbay

Stalin, like any real leader

Well, there are people who say that the people of the USSR won the war, in spite of personally Stalin and the whole mediocre leadership of the USSR.

Quote: Yarbay

Moreover, for smaller offenses in captivity a person was punished!

that Taratut actually claims that some bloodthirsty gebnya ate alive right at the place of registration, but on Lukin zero to the mass, they listened to everyone, questioned, found some dirt, and then Abakumov said to Stalin:
they say, comrade Stalin, there is incriminating evidence against Lukin, but he is crippled, let's regret it ...

[KOMA]

Real Hero! Light memory to him!

[vezunchik]

It is noteworthy that all this time the wife of General Nadezhda Methodievna Lukina continued to work in the People’s Commissariat of Defense. In November 1943, she was summoned to the Lubyanka and officially announced that her husband, who was reported missing, was in captivity. After which ... they released in peace, without even firing from service!
An honest man and they’re not afraid of anything.

[Taratut]

You forgot to quote the end of the passage.
“In November 1943, she was summoned to the Lubyanka and officially announced that her husband, who was listed as missing, was in captivity. After that… she was released in peace, without even being fired from service! The case is almost the only one in the entire history of the war."
And you immediately make philosophical conclusions.

[Samovar]

Thank you for the article! +
I can imagine the panicked thoughts of the Germans: "If the generals of this army are fighting SO, how are their soldiers fighting?" However, they have already felt it in full.

[vezunchik]

So now Russia needs such people,

[romul]

There are many of them, just the time is not theirs now. The time will come and everything will fall into place.

[Igarr]

Exceptional article.
You read - goosebumps.
One pity is that such materials are clearly not included in the education program.
I dare to suggest - Vlasov there, Penkovsky, Suvorov (Rezun), Navalny - will get there. Because - Tolerasts.
But the real Heroes - will not fall.
...
Glory to our Heroes.

[Ascetic]

Quote: Igarr

I dare to suggest - Vlasov there, Penkovsky, Suvorov (Rezun), Navalny - will get there. Because - Tolerasts.

Of course they will .. have fallen

[Taratut]

Why not get it? Already hit. Lukin’s interrogation protocol cited in the book
"Readers on Russian history" (1914-1945) edited by A.F. Kiseleva, E.M. Shagin. M. 1996

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Taratut

The protocol of interrogation of Lukin is cited in the book

where is the evidence of the authenticity of the protocol?

[Pushkar]

To your regret, most of the textbooks on the history of manufacturing of that time not recommended in our time for use in schools of the Russian Federation. Vlasovites are written.

[Karlsonn]

Pushkar ,
the time will come and ask for everything.

[vladimirZ]

The fate of General Lukin proves once again that Stalin was not as bloodthirsty as modern "democrats" describe him.
In fact, the traitor general Lukin, who issued key strategic military secrets in the difficult year of 1941, but did not become an armed enemy of the USSR, was even reinstated in the army, awarded with a number of orders and medals, and then, due to his disability and taking into account his age and poor health , honorably sent to a military pension.
And there are many like Lukin. Nobody tried them or sent them to prison camps, who were in captivity and did not stain themselves with the blood of their compatriots, as the modern Russian "democratic" media now broadcast to us.
After captivity, everyone was sent to the filtration camps, where the rank and file and sergeants, who did not stain themselves with blood, were sent back to the front after the test, or after the Victory home.
It was more difficult with the officers, in their cases an investigation was conducted. They found out, according to the Criminal Code, whether there was a military crime in the actions of one or another commander who failed to properly organize the armed struggle of their units and units. The perpetrators were tried and sent to camps, just like now in any army of any state.

[Samovar]

Quote: vladimirZ

In fact, the traitor general Lukin, who issued the most important strategic military secrets in the difficult 1941

Well from now on in more detail. To whom did he give out what?
PS Links to Gestapo documents are not accepted!

[Taratut]

Quote: Samovar

Links to Gestapo documents are not accepted!

So who was interrogating him? What documents do you need?
SMERSHEVSKY?
Well, do you sincerely believe that for some reason the Germans produced a fake interrogation protocol? Well, why? To a certain Samovar disappointed in one of the Soviet generals?
And what materials should SMERSH be guided by your materials?
The interrogation protocol ends with the words "I ask you to keep all this a secret, since I have a family."
So with what fright would he put everything to investigators?

[Lech e-mine]

To persuade the general to cooperate, is this not enough? By presenting this LIPU to LUKIN, the Germans could fully promise to pass this on to the NKVD. (And the respected HISTORIAN in quotation marks SMERSH IN 1941 was not yet.)

[Taratut]

Quote: Leha e-mine

And dear HISTORIAN in quotation marks SMERSH IN 1941 STILL not.

And what does the beginning of the war have to do with it? I wrote that SMERSH was in 1941?

Quote: Leha e-mine

By presenting this LIPU to LUKIN, the GERMANS FULLY COULD promise to transfer this to the NKVD

Yes, actually they did. So what?
It’s just that in the end, no one got involved with the cripple - neither ours nor the Germans.

[Lech e-mine]

Well, now it’s already hot, you perfectly understand that it is impossible to persuade a person who is convinced of his rightness to betrayal. If you just don’t wash his brains. But LUKIN IS NOT FROM THIS BREED - Roughly speaking, he is a fanatic and dying to defend the MOTHERLAND is easier for him than becoming a traitor or falling into captive to the GERMANS.

[Samovar]

Quote: Taratut

What documents do you need?

Personally, I’m not. But you, as I managed to notice, love to distort history and tarnish the memory of those who fought for you. Yesterday about Karbyshev, today about Lukin. Not for that, they shed blood, so that here some provocateur like you would pour mud on them.

[Karlsonn]

Samovar,
there is an opinion that he sees the name of a Soviet man, so he immediately runs to the wiki, to check if there is any compromising evidence on him!
to show that among the Soviet people there were neither heroes, nor just decent people, there were, he believed, only scum and bloody ghouls that guarded them and devoured them alive.

[Samovar]

Quote: Karlsonn

that among the Soviet people there were neither heroes, nor simply decent, there were, as he believes, only scum and bloody ghouls that guarded them and devoured them alive.

Typical liberalist (I apologize for my French) what to take from him ...

[Taratut]

Quote: Samovar

you, as I managed to notice, are very fond of distorting history and tarnishing the memory of those who fought for you. Yesterday about Karbyshev, today about Lukin

What bad did I write about Karbyshev?

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Taratut

Well, do you sincerely believe that for some reason the Germans produced a fake interrogation protocol?

no, I think that the fake was written by Kiselev and Shagin.

[Aleksys2]

Quote: Karlsonn

no, I think that the fake was written by Kiselev and Shagin.

No, not them.
From the Chrestomathy on Russian History (1914-1945): A textbook for university students / Auth. foreword E. M. Schagin; Comp. E. M. Shchagin and others; Under. ed. A. F. Kiseleva, E. M. Shchagina; Mosk. teacher. state University, M.: Vlados, 1996, 894, p. : ill. (reference to S. 522-525). By article: New Sentinel Russian military historical journal. (St. Petersburg). 1994. No2. S. 173-175

[ikrut]

The Germans could easily make this opus. This is a serious weapon in the struggle for the heads of other prisoners of war they need. Yes, and for propaganda purposes.

[ikrut]

Yes, you carefully read this linden. These are retellings of bazaar women, not the words of a professional military man. 150 divisions are being formed behind the Volga. Beyond the Volga 5 thousand km. Russian land. Neither the names of the commanders who were sent to the new units, nor the deployment of these units. And by rank, Lukin should know about this at least approximately. About "Katyusha" is also a linden. By October 41, the Germans had already captured 3 copies. "Katyushas". And they knew about them since July. The one who made the fake apparently did not inquire about the state of affairs in this matter. And all the other "secrets" are in the same style. OBS.
But spreading information about the betrayal of the enemy general is a serious propaganda step. And it affects the enemy no worse than the Katyusha.
It's nice that you are often dunked here with "a muzzle, but in g..no" (c). These are beautiful lessons for young people who "inhabit" this forum. Thank you for helping the patriots of Russia with your cave-like Russophobia and primitive provocation. It would be more difficult without you.

[Karlsonn]

ikrut .
Aleksys2 ,
Q.E.D.

[Taratut]

No dear. Those who have at least a count on their head can not convince me.
But the doubters read my comments and became thoughtful.

[vezunchik]

Modern rulers do not take into account the human factor. If Putin explain to us what and why is being done, and most importantly in the name of what, then the Russians can turn mountains ...

the commander remained faithful to the Motherland and the oath ...

But in the year 91 and 93 - there were few of them ...

the commander remained faithful to the Motherland and the oath ...
In 91 of these there were not many ...

[Astartes]

In the name of the dough probably Putin and his entourage, otherwise at least something would be done.

[psdf]

Interesting article. I met Lukin’s surname before, but didn’t read the details.
Thanks to the author for the informative material.

[serjant4]

Life is for the Motherland, honor is for nobody! The real man was the commander ...

[ammunition]

Quote: Taratut

Lukin asked Vlasov
- Are you sure that Hitler will go to the creation of the Russian state?
Vlasov replied that he was not sure.
“Then I have nothing to do in your army,” Lukin answered and returned to the camp.

This dialogue proves Lukin’s allegiance to the Motherland.

The time then was difficult and difficult .. like now. The discord was the strongest. And the conspiracy of the generals to "drain" the war was ... with the aim of overthrowing Stalin. Did Lukin take part? .. Unlikely .. But! He knew for sure about such a conspiracy.

The difference from our time is also that Stalin was a man of genius. He, being a hostage of the "Marxist-Leninist" system and the revolutionary apparatus ... was able to save the country and the people.

You can’t tell in a nutshell For example, ataman Krasnov. Collaborated with Hitler .. sure that he was fighting for Russia. A tragic mistake ... God rest his soul.

And in general ... That war was allowed by God to punish and admonish the Russian people. Of course, this does not justify those generals who directly substituted the troops for rout ... but at least explains a little.

And now ... honest patriots ... one fiercely wants to "throw off" Putin ... The other understands that this is suicidal for the country now .. And Putin ..., meanwhile, is also a hostage of the system .. and is not able to fire Serdyukov ... I believe that only the Lord God can destroy .. remove .. these vicious circles from betrayal, delusion, heroism and meanness ..

Stalin was never able to throw off the "Jewish" yoke, which clung to Russia with a stranglehold ... He only crushed him ... he countered ... But he did inhumanly a lot ... he was killed when he started taking decisive steps ... So it goes

[ikrut]

Although you, "ammunition" and minus, but from me "+". I largely agree here.

[vladimirZ]

Quote: Taratut
Lukin asked Vlasov
- Are you sure that Hitler will go to the creation of the Russian state?
Vlasov replied that he was not sure.
“Then I have nothing to do in your army,” Lukin answered and returned to the camp.

ammunition Today, 15:31
"This dialogue proves Lukin's devotion to the Motherland."

Hmm, "ammunition". This dialogue shows that on certain conditions, General Lukin would agree to cooperate with Hitler against the USSR.
And you say Lukin is a hero, a patriot. So reason and heroes - patriots can write Vlasov.

[Lech e-mine]

what nonsense - well, you still say that the NKVD will go under certain conditions for cooperation with Hitler. Bullshit.

[Taratut]

Quote: vladimirZ

And you say Lukin is a hero, a patriot. So argue in the heroes - patriots can write Vlasov

Absolutely.
But for some reason, this idea seems complicated to the majority here.

[ammunition]

Quote: vladimirZ

Hmm, "ammunition". This dialogue shows that on certain conditions, General Lukin would agree to cooperate with Hitler against the USSR.

More precisely, against the then Soviet power?

Maybe. I can’t know for sure. Assuming guarantees that Hitler restores legal autocracy and quickly blames Brest

Notice. Quote from a conversation in captivity. It is very likely that Lukin found a polite excuse to refuse. It is very difficult for us to judge that time. Only he who says that he has fully understood our time can dare to make a complete judgment about that time.


It is good that nowadays very few people have a delusion about how "abroad" helps Russia.

[dmb]

Listen to the forum users. Well, how much can you succumb to the cheap provocations of Mr. Taratut. After all, for him, any topic after the 1917 year is just an excuse to note. Well, just like a dog at the pillar. After all, even dig up and bring to him a living Gestapo who was interrogating Lukin, and tell that Gestapo man that Lukin didn’t say such a thing, and here, more than sure, Mr. Taratut will say that the Gestapo’s have been turned over by the FSB with Prokhanov. The logic for such gentlemen is a dark subject and cannot be investigated.
It is not clear to the sane people what else was needed from Lukin after such his testimony. These sane people may doubt the humanism of Stalin and Abakumov. Indeed, there is nothing to blame for their enemies. I am writing this not for Mr. Taratut, for the clinic is in his case, but for people who want to think.

[Taratut]

Quote: dmb

Well, how much can you succumb to the cheap provocations of Mr. Taratut.

Whom and how do I provoke?

Quote: dmb

After all, even dig up and bring to him a living Gestapo man who was interrogating Lukin, and tell that Gestapo man that Lukin didn’t say such a thing, and here, more than sure, Mr. Taratut will say that the Gestapo’s was re-examined by the FSB with Prokhanov

That's when I say - you will come forward with a refutation.

Quote: dmb

It is not clear to the sane people what else was needed from Lukin after such his testimony. These sane people may doubt the humanism of Stalin and Abakumov

So it’s not about humanism.
On August 31, 1945, State Security General Abakumov wrote to Stalin: “As for Lieutenant General Lukin M.F. - the former commander of the 19th Army, for whom there are materials about his anti-Soviet activities, but, given that as a result of the wound, he remained crippled (his arm was paralyzed and his leg was amputated) .. no materials have been obtained during the verification process. I would consider it expedient to "release him and provide undercover surveillance."
They didn’t try to cripple, they hushed up the case.

[Aleksys2]

I decipher Abakumov’s phrase, especially for you:
“As for Lieutenant General Lukin M.F. - the former commander of the 19th Army, in relation to whom there are materials about his anti-Soviet activities (The certificate about Lukin after his return from captivity states: “The testimony of the arrested by the Smersh Main Directorate of one of the leaders of the NTSNP White émigré Brunst, traitor to the homeland Vlasov and former chief courses of junior lieutenants of the 33rd Army Minaev, it is established that Lukin, while in the autumn of 1942 in a prisoner of war camp in the cities of Zitenhorst and Wustrau, showed anti-Soviet sentiments on the collectivization of agriculture, the punitive policy of Soviet power and slandered the leaders of the CPSU (b) and the Soviet Lukin, being interrogated on this issue, denies any criminal connection with these persons and the anti-Soviet activities carried out by him. "), ...., in the process of checking any materials have not yet been obtained (that is, the facts stated in the testimony of the arrested Brunst, Vlasova and Minaeva were not confirmed). On this - "I would consider it expedient to" release him and provide undercover surveillance ""
No need to pull out phrases that are convenient for you from the context; not children are sitting here.

[Taratut]

And it seems to me, children.

Quote: Aleksys2

that is, the facts stated in the testimonies of the arrested Brunst, Vlasov and Minaev were not confirmed

And what exactly should be confirmed?
Those said that he spoke out. He stated that he was silent as a fish on ice.
So, what is next? Either knock out evidence or not. We decided not to touch the cripple.

[Aleksys2]

Quote: Taratut

So, what is next? Either knock out evidence or not.

That is, do you think that they are exclusively beaten out? There were no other sources to confirm or deny?

[elenagromova]

What a horror ...
But the general, yes, is real.
Indeed, a complex and ambiguous issue with prisoners. But once in this state - even reproach would be stupid.

[ammunition]

I respect and bow before the feat of General Lukin, who fought for his homeland.


I wanted to say this: -

Estimate that in the 1996 year, communist China would attack Russia. And propaganda would broadcast that in order to restore the USSR.


Just think ... Would all the generals then defend Yeltsin? .. Well, Russia .. by itself-by itself ..

Of course, Yeltsin is not Stalin

And then ... the civil war was still fresh, in which everyone was convinced that they were fighting for Russia.
But the "whites" made a tragic ... cruel mistake. Unfortunately, not all of them realized that they had made a mistake until now.

Black and white logic does not work.

Zhukov deliberately cheated the officially approved defense plan when Hitler attacked. And on the sly, but actively he deployed and "prepared" the troops according to the treacherous (defeatist) plan of Tukhachevsky. ... But then he fought honestly.

[vladimirZ]

Yes, Lukin is not Karbyshev. Karbyshev did not make any compromises with the enemy.
And here is Lukin: now, if the Germans allow to organize the Russian Government, then I will fight on their side, against Bolshevism and Stalin.
Is this a trick, a guile, a compromise or a really real condition? It is difficult to answer, because the protocols for interrogating Lukin were revealed after his death.
The Marshals' conspiracy of 1937 also took shape on this basis - against Stalin.
It has now been practically proved that against Stalin there was a wide conspiracy of the highest military, who set the goal of physically eliminating Stalin and changing the state structure of the country.
And it is difficult to assume that it should not be, since the Red Army was created and promoted by the highest commanding staff, not Stalin, but Trotsky, who was then abroad, and who had close ties with his associates.
The leadership of the conspiracy led by Tukhachevsky (as well as Trotsky), as one of the options considered and such an option to seize power based on German power. The plot was discovered on time and shot at the top, but some of those involved remained unrevealed.
By the way, Army General Pavlov, commander of the special Western District for all his actions before and at the beginning of the war, in all likelihood, was also in the circle of the conspiracy.
So, there are protocols of Lukin’s interrogation and this is historical reality and there’s no way to leave them.

[8 company]

Quote: vladimirZ

It has now been practically proved that against Stalin there was a wide conspiracy of the highest military, who set the goal of physically eliminating Stalin and changing the state structure of the country.

Well of course. Every normal patriot, having seen dispossession, collectivization, the famine of 1932-33, had to take any action to remove or destroy the ruling junta in the USSR headed by Dzhugashvili. The only question is - why is it so late in 1937? This Caucasian bandit had to be destroyed during the period of dispossession and collectivization, when peasant uprisings blazed around the country.

[vladimirZ]

"Well, of course. Every normal patriot, seeing dispossession, collectivization, famine of 1932-33, had to take any action ..."

"Company 8", you seem to be one of those offended by the Soviet regime. Try to rise above your resentment and read historical literature, historical studies of that period, not feature films commissioned by "democratic" ideologists, but serious objective things.
To begin with, you can documentary and historical series of books by Elena Prudnikova, then others.

[Taratut]

Quote: vladimirZ

To begin with, you can documentary and historical series of books by Elena Prudnikova, then others

Well, you broke off.
Here is a list of the books of this young lady.
Stalin. Second kill
Beria. Crimes that were not.
Beria. The last knight of Stalin.
Land of the Virgin.
I deny you, Satan.
Double plot. Secrets of the Stalinist repression.
The son of a witch.
Well and further in the same vein.

[8 company]

Quote: Taratut

I deny you, Satan. A double plot. Secrets of Stalin's repressions. Son of a witch.

This is just a reading for Dzhugashvili fans, their level.

[vladimirZ]

Start with "Technologies of the Impossible Book 1. Lenin and Stalin", "Technologies of the Impossible Book 2. Stalin. The Battle for Bread" E. Prudnikova.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: Company 8

Well of course. Every normal patriot sees

so says every former political instructor to justify his betrayal!

[Aleksys2]

Quote: Karlsonn

political instructor

No, he is not a political instructor, he is a political officer.

[Karlsonn]

Alexis2,
I don’t understand the varieties of betrayal and oath-crime.
but I’d love to do it.

[Aleksys2]

Politruk - Political leader, that is, a person called to lead.
Zampolit - deputy for political affairs.
I already wrote in one of the topics referring to the 8th company:

I have a brother, he graduated from Mozhaika and served in Leninsk, so he does not tolerate political leaders, when they are mentioned he becomes not his own, I often objected to him that not all the political leaders are scoundrels, there are normal people. But here, reading your comments, I began to think, and maybe my brother is right ....

[Karlsonn]

Quote: vladimirZ

And here is Lukin: now, if the Germans allow to organize the Russian Government, then I will fight on their side, against Bolshevism and Stalin.

this is not a proven lie!

[ammunition]

Quote: Company 8

the bandit had to be destroyed during the dispossession and collectivization,

The methods for eliminating and physically destroying Stalin were actively discussed among the conspirators in the 31, the 32, and the 33

The conspirators had to drop the physical murder. Here is Bukharin's reliable phrase from one such discussion: -

"... This will rise from St. Petersburg to Vladivostok! - The Tsar was killed !!"

Agree .. Bukharin knew better than us what he said.

It turns out that the people instinctively loved Stalin. Felt in him a defender from the clique of revolutionary revolution.

There is something to calmly think about. The people of Stalin really loved. Why ??? It is impossible to forcefully love ... It was not in the history of tyrants to be loved. ... were afraid. This is yes.

Think about it. You are welcome.

[Karlsonn]

Quote: ammunition

The conspirators had to drop the physical murder.

Well, there was a fool of Okhotnikov who hit Stalin in the back of the head.

[8 company]

Quote: ammunition

It turns out that the people instinctively loved Stalin. Felt in him a defender from the clique of revolutionary revolution.

This type of Stalin was not a revolutionary, denied Marxism-Leninism, and threw Lenin out of the mausoleum? Well, you Stalinists, how to blurt out something ...

[Was mammoth]

And where do the taratutas and fifth columns come from? One should be proud of such a person with a capital LF M. And they dig dirt, look for in the Feat of Man. And in the textbooks they libel slander.

[Karlsonn]

Was mammoth ,
where did the Ukrainians who kept the external perimeter come from when the ss-sheep of my great-grandfather were shot? where did the Slavs come from, who, while serving the Germans, joined the ROA and UNA - UNSO?
in the democratic light of human civilization, dissenters can be tortured in Guantonamo, but they will still talk about the bloodthirsty Stalin.

[centimeter]

Thanks for the article. Now about this one.
http://svyatopolk-70.livejournal.com/8239.html
One source:
Illarion Alekseevich Tolkonyuk (based on the book "Wounds heal slowly" M., 2004, 552 p.).
In Google, all the info goes in connection with Lukin and nothing separately. The question then arises: how much can you trust the interrogation protocols (German protocols)? This raises another question: how was the general, who was, to put it mildly not in the best condition, able to answer so coherently and frankly?
ps Well, if I take it upon myself to blame, then at least bring a base for this to be believed. In the meantime, there are a lot of questions and absolute disbelief.

[Karlsonn]

centimeter , as I have already said, there is a category of people for whom communism is like a red rag for the bull, they are ready to serve for free.

[8 company]

Quote: Karlsonn

as I said, there is a category of people for whom communism as a bull is a red rag,

Once again I explain to Carlson and the company of Dzhugashvili fans why I stopped being a communist:
I joined the party, being sure that it actually leads the people to prosperity on the shining heights of communism, and that the capitalist west is about to decay completely. There was a lot of talk about this in the USSR and from everywhere, and any negative was hushed up. You, dear Stalinists, are not aware of this just because you all have probably flown from Mars, where communism has already been built and its peaks shine throughout the entire Universe. After the abolition of censorship in the USSR and the publication of many documents on the role of certain party leaders in monstrous bullying of the people — such as dispossession, collectivization, hunger, repression — I ceased to be a communist. By the way, I strongly advise you not to change your views when new information appears. Do not buy anything produced in capitalist countries, because in this way you will encourage the exploitation of the foreign proletariat. Although we now also have capitalism, so do not buy anything at all, live by what you produce personally. Or fly back to communist Mars.

[Aleksys2]

Quote: Company 8

After the abolition of censorship in the USSR and the publication of many documents on the role of some party leaders in monstrous bullying of the people — such as dispossession, collectivization, hunger, repression — I ceased to be a communist.

You studied as a political leader, joined the party in a school, I doubt that by that time you did not know about Khrushchev's report at the XX Congress of the CPSU in 1956. They knew, and still went along the political line and joined the CPSU. Then it was fashionable and not expensive. When it became not fashionable, you immediately repainted as an anti-communist. From here a conclusion, you my friend CONJUNCTURER.
So do not hang on our ears noodles about your reasons for joining the party. You joined the party exclusively for your career.

[8 company]

Quote: Aleksys2

You studied as a political leader, joined the party in a school, I doubt that by that time you did not know about Khrushchev's report at the XX Congress of the CPSU in 1956.

And you do not hesitate. This report was read out at party meetings in 1956, it was impossible to find it in writing if you were not a high-ranking functionary of the CPSU.

Quote: Aleksys2

You joined the party exclusively for your career.

Oh, I missed, because I didn’t rise above the company’s political officer! It was necessary to go to the collective farm, now, as Lukashenko, he would lead the country

[Aleksys2]

Quote: Company 8

after all, he did not rise above the company’s political officer!

And how many years did they sit in the company’s political officers? And when did you quit? And when did they become an ardent anti-communist? And you could go to the collective farm, probably you would bring more benefit there (only it would be unlikely that you would be entrusted to the collective farm, so you would have to work as a cattleman or tractor driver).
For your information:

Alexander Lukashenko was born on August 30, 1954 in the urban village of Kopys, Orsha district, Vitebsk region. By nationality, Belarusian. Grandfather, Trofim Ivanovich, originally from Ukraine, Sumy region. Mother of Alexander Grigoryevich before the war lived in the village of Alexandria, Shklovsky district of the Mogilev region, and after the war she got a job at the Orsha linen factory, having given birth to a son, returned to the village and began to work as a milkmaid on the farm. He grew up and was brought up without a father.
In 1975, he graduated from the History Department of the Mogilev Pedagogical Institute with a degree in history and social studies, and in 1985, from the correspondence department of Economics at the Belarusian Agricultural Academy, majoring in economics and organization of agricultural production. From 1975 to 1977, Lukashenko served in the Border Troops of the KGB of the USSR, where he was an instructor in the political department of the military unit of the Western Border District in Brest. After serving in the border troops, he began his career as secretary of the Komsomol committee of the city government of Mogilev, and in 1978 he became executive secretary of the Shklovsk regional organization of the All-Union Knowledge Society.
Since 1979, member of the CPSU. From 1980 to 1982, he served as deputy company commander for political affairs. In 1982, he was appointed deputy chairman of the Udarnik collective farm in Shklovsky district, the following year he was appointed deputy director of the building materials factory in Shklov, and in 1985 he began and until 1987 worked as secretary of the party committee of the Lenin Shklovsky district collective farm. In March 1987, he became director of the Gorodets state farm in the Shklovsky district of the Mogilev region, and since January 1988, he was one of the first in the Mogilev region to introduce lease contracts at the state farm

So you hurried with the "epiphany" then. They put it on the wrong horse, and now proceed with anger at everything and everyone.

[8 company]

Quote: Aleksys2

Alexander Lukashenko was born

Thanks for the info. It turns out that the leader worked in the political department, then as a secretary, then as a political secretary, then as a secretary ... as a secretary ... Now it’s clear why the national currency fell 3 times in Belarus last year. It was necessary to work at least a little cattleman, otherwise all the papers and chatter, papers and chatter ...

[centimeter]

8 company,

Once again I explain to Carlson and the company of Dzhugashvili fans why I stopped being a communist:
I joined the party, being sure that it actually leads the people to prosperity on the shining heights of communism, and that the capitalist west is about to decay completely.

Have you even written about something: about communism or Stalinism? In addition to Stalin, we had the memorable Khrushchev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko and forgive the besiege Gorbachev. And all of them, as you put it, were led into communism.

After the abolition of censorship in the USSR and the publication of many documents on the role of some party leaders in monstrous bullying of the people — such as dispossession, collectivization, hunger, repression — I ceased to be a communist.

Was there boy communist?
What does Uncle Joe have to do with it? He wrote denunciations, did he knock on a neighbor?
About hunger: this is a famine, etc. etc.? Well, Stalin decided to starve the people to death. What for?

Do not buy anything produced in capitalist countries, because in this way you will encourage the exploitation of the foreign proletariat.

Oddly enough, we often buy communist, Chinese.

Although we now also have capitalism, so do not buy anything at all, live by what you produce personally.

You know, under Stalin, private property was also not small. Read about artels. And if not for Khrushchev, then who knows. wherever we are

[8 company]

Quote: santim

You know, under Stalin, private property was also not small.

Yeah. Banks, firms, insurance companies and more. Stalin personally organized. You are too fond of alternative history.

[RomanRVV]

Why not. Promotional operation is called. Check out the topic. A lot of cognitive. Until the release of weapons during the war.

[andrew42]

If you really were a member of the Party, then the History of the CPSU, I dare to assume, was studied in one way or another. I would have to. And if so, then you should be able to see the entire historical chronology of the RSDLP - VKPb - CPSU. And this chronology is a fierce struggle between inner-party currents at each conditionally 5-year time interval. Starting with the disengagement from the Jewish BUND and ending with the Andropov "purges" that opened the way for the "Gorby gang". Sometimes, judging by the planned future of the country, the contradictions between intraparty groupings were worse than "capitalism vs socialism" according to classical Marx. You are raking in one bag and Lenin-Sverdlovsk "dogs of the revolution", and Trotskyists, and Stalinists, and neo-Trotskyists Khrushchev, and Brezhnev's "stagnant". Sharikov's attitude to the correspondence between Engels and Kautsky. Plus a resentment like "I was deceived." Oh well. I didn’t have time to go to the party, I was young, but I also handed over my Komsomol card on the wave of Gorbachev-Yeltsin's euphoria .. But I’m not proud of it, and I consider myself a fool of that time. And you didn’t understand anything. Yes, MMM with Lenya Golubkov pursues you until the end of your days! :))

[Bigriver]

centimeter
... how much can you trust the interrogation protocols (German protocols)?

But there is no reason to argue that this is really a protocol of interrogation.
Although, the interrogation of Lukin in Smolensk in December was the 41st.

[Lech e-mine]

In general, some German documents should be treated very skeptically, for example, the data of Luftwaffe pilots of fighter aircraft (they knock down one plane and write down two shot down in the report)

[asavchenko59]

I read the article and am also bitterly disappointed that such a person was not given the Golden Star. However, for some reason, I recalled a disgusting example of how this Golden Star was begged and begged for the main firefighter of Moscow, who died in shame and stupidity on the burning Ostankino television tower.

[8 company]

Lukin, of course, is not forgotten. Everyone who is interested in the history of the Great Patriotic War is well aware of his name, standing along with Petrovsky, Romanov, Lizyukov, Katukov and many other talented and brave military leaders who pulled the country out of the abyss in 1941. Their names are convincing evidence that there were many worthy commanders in the Red Army, contrary to the allegations of falsifiers trying to prove that there were no talented military leaders in the Red Army, so their mass executions before the war, organized by Stalin and his lackeys, supposedly did not have the USSR for defense no value. If someone forgot by accident, then I remind you that in 1937-1940 more than 500 commanders of the Red Army in the rank of brigade commander - marshal were destroyed. Their lists with short biographies are on the website rkka.ru

[Aleksys2]

Quote: Company 8

contrary to the allegations of falsifiers trying to prove that there were no talented military leaders in the Red Army, therefore their mass executions before the war, organized by Stalin and his lackeys, supposedly had no significance for the defense of the USSR.

Read and be amazed.
Acquaintance with archival documents, reporting data of personnel agencies on the arrested and appointed commanders instead of them testifies to the growth of academic education in all major job groups. For example, at the peak of the repressions, from May 1, 1937 to April 15, 1938, out of the 3 arrested deputies of the People's Commissar of Defense, not one had an academic education, 2 of the appointed had it. Of the commanders of the troops of the districts, 3 "academicians" were arrested, 8 were appointed; deputy commanders of the districts: respectively, 4 arrested with higher military education, appointed - 6; the chiefs of staff of the districts - those arrested did not have an academic education, 4 out of 10 appointed had it; corps commanders - 12 with higher military education were arrested, 19 were appointed; chiefs of staff of corps - 14 "academicians" were arrested, 22 appointed. And so on in all positions, with the exception of division commanders. The 33 arrested divisional commanders had an academic education, and among the appointed there were only 27 of them. In general, in terms of the highest command staff, the number of those appointed with a higher military education exceeds the number of those arrested with a similar education by 45%.
Thus, repressions did not reduce the educational level of the categories of officers affected by them, they affected the level of education of senior and secondary officers who were promoted to higher posts. Archival evidence suggests that these were, as a rule, the most highly trained commanders.
To summarize, we can draw some conclusions. Firstly, the study of objective indicators and characteristics of various categories of command and control personnel, carried out using quantitative methods, does not give rise to a statement about the significant influence of repressions on the state of military personnel in the pre-war period. The exception is a fairly thin layer of the highest command and command structure, in which repression made certain changes. However, its main objective indicators were no worse, and in some indicators better than their repressed predecessors.
Secondly, an analysis of the large amount of available data shows that the repressions did not have a significant impact on the state of military personnel on the level of training, staffing, the availability of combat experience and the experience in command and control of units and formations that they attach to historiography. By the beginning of the war, the army managed to come up with a fairly high educational level of senior officers. The main drawback of the officer corps before the war was the low training of a huge mass of mid-level commanders. A significant group of officers with a low level of education, which merged with the Red Army in the prewar years, was an inevitable consequence of its unplanned deployment. The experience of serving in positions held was small, but, as the previous experience of the mass deployment of new formations shows, it was unlikely to be higher with this system of training, promotion and accumulation of top military personnel.
Thirdly, the repressions did not affect the cadres as much as they were estimated by the German military leaders led by Hitler before the war. They were clearly mistaken, and our victory is convincing proof of this.

[8 company]

Quote: Aleksys2

Thus, repressions did not reduce the educational level of the categories of officers affected by them, they affected the level of education of senior and secondary officers who were promoted to higher posts. Archival evidence suggests that these were, as a rule, the most highly trained commanders.

Bravo! You convincingly explained how the Germans ended up near Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad and Novorossiysk, where the monstrous defeats of the Red Army 1941-1942 came from. Now it’s clear: because of the high professional level of the Red Army commanders. As usual, the logic of the Stalinists at an unattainable height.

[ammunition]

Quote: Company 8

Bravo! You convincingly explained how the Germans ended up near Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad and Novorossiysk, where the monstrous defeats of the Red Army 1941-1942 came from. Now it’s clear: because of the high professional level of the Red Army commanders. As usual, the logic of the Stalinists at an unattainable height.

There was a conspiracy of the military elite, and part of the party. Even before 37. The main version of the plan was with them - the displacement of Stalin as a result of defeat in the war with Germany. In this case, Tukhachevsky developed a defeatist plan to enter the war with Germany.
The plot was uncovered and beheaded. But far from completely.
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Then Shaposhnikov was developed real , a competent strategic plan for entering the war with Germany. It provided for a stubborn .. deeply echeloned defense, until the deployment of the main forces of the mob reserve. Shaposhnikov’s plan was officially adopted by the Politburo and signed by Stalin himself.

However, after .. with the help of intrigue, Shaposhnikov was removed from his post as chief of staff headquarters. The General Staff began to run Tymoshenko and Zhukov. Tymoshenko and Zhukov completely sabotaged the defense plan, approved by Stalin. Tymoshenko and Zhukov, with the support of part of the generals in the field, accepted the wrecking plan of Tukhachevsky for execution. And they made it so that Stalin did not know about it.

Here is the answer to the question - Why did the Germans reach Moscow.


Yes, judge for yourself ... All .. The whole Generals knew about the attack from day to day. But Pavlov To the whole district! only half a ton of gasoline in the storehouse ... The bolts have been removed from the guns ... the cash ammunition has not been handed out .. Contrary to even a direct order from June 18th! .. part of the command staff was dispersed on "business trips" ... It cannot be explained by simple carelessness.

------

I don’t understand ... Do you really want to know the truth? ... Or so .. do you want it to be your way?

If you want to know the truth - do not read Rezun .. there are frauds .. and you should not read the traitor. Well, try to get acquainted .. well, at least with this ----

http://liewar.ru/

If you are familiar with everything, then your position is all the more incomprehensible.

[8 company]

Quote: ammunition

Tymoshenko and Zhukov completely sabotaged the defense plan, approved by Stalin.

The monstrous blindness of Stalin! Such fat enemies of the people under the very nose in critical posts! And interestingly, none of them was punished for their betrayal ... Comrade Stalin clearly lost his grip ... Not surprised, some fans of the leader tell stories about the fact that Stalin did not know anything bad, only good, and asked someone for resignation 3 times, but they did not give him.

[Aleksys2]

Quote: Company 8

You convincingly explained how the Germans ended up under Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad and Novorossiysk

My post does not explain this in any way. He explains that the repression did not knock out all the talented commanders (what are you telling us here).
If you want to know why the Germans reached those frontiers, the reasons lie not in the conspiracy, not in repression, but in completely different reasons. And do not forget that the Wehrmacht model of the summer of 1941 is the strongest and most efficient army in Europe (I hope you will not argue with this?), One French company is worth what.

The composition of the western military districts included only 42 formations with the combat experience of Khalkhin-Gol or the Finnish War, that is, less than 25%:
LVO - 10 divisions (46,5% of all district troops),
Pribovo - 4 (14,3%),
COVO - 13 (28%),
KOVO - 12 (19,5%),
OdVO - 3 (20%).
For contrast: 82% Wehrmacht divisions allocated for the operation "Barbarossa", had real combat experience battles 1939 – 1941 of the year.

[8 company]

Quote: Aleksys2

do not forget that the Wehrmacht model of the summer of 1941 is the strongest and most efficient army in Europe

To lose your mind ... It was necessary to tell about this to the divisor-72 Romanov, who held Mogilev with one division against several divisions of Guderin for 23 days, moreover, a week without any supplies.

Quote: Aleksys2

My post does not explain this in any way. He explains that the repression did not knock out all the talented commanders

Your post only explains that you don’t understand the role of military commander in the army if you justify the destruction of several hundred generals before the war.

[Bigriver]

8 company
Go crazy ... I had to talk about it divisional 72 Romanov, who held Mogilev with one division against several divisions of Guderin for 23 days, with a week without any supplies.

You obviously wanted to say:172?
And you ask what kind of division?
It is a personnel division of the first "hundred" of the Red Armypast the Finnish campaign.
And almost 2/3 of the Red Army divisions simply had no such experience and history.
From 1938 to 41st years, the Red Army grew approximately three times. Where did she get experience at all levels?

[8 company]

Quote: BigRiver

This is the personnel division of the first "weave" of the Red Army, which went through the Finnish campaign.

And you, apparently, think that all such divisions fought at the 172nd level? I'm afraid to disappoint you.

[Bigriver]

8 company
... how the Germans ended up under Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad and Novorossiysk, where the monstrous defeats of the Red Army 1941-1942 came from.

The Germans were there, as well as in Paris, Dunkirk, Antwerp, Warsaw, etc., thanks to the unique and all warring parties, not appreciated and not rethought operational and tactical art of the Wehrmacht.
It was the means of the "poor" - as quickly as possible, by a professional army and as efficiently as possible.
No "normal" country would have thought of a compact special forces army operating in the European theater of operations. The views were different.

[Bigriver]

8 company
.... Petrovsky, Romanov, Lizyukov, Katukov and many other talented and brave military leaders who pulled the country out of the abyss in 1941. Their names are convincing evidence that in the Red Army there were many worthy commanders, contrary to the allegations of falsifiers trying to prove that there were no talented military leaders in the Red Army, therefore, their mass executions before the war, organized by Stalin and his lackeys, supposedly had no significance for the defense of the USSR

I sometimes analyze different texts :)) Do you mind?
Are you trying to become a professional propagandist of the Brezhnev period? What for?
Where did you find the connection between the presence (in potential) in the Red Army future talented warlords, and purges of the high command staff that took place in the late 30s?
In fact, the Red Army was the brainchild of Comrade Trotsky. And cleaning, on the eve of the great war, was necessary. Sizes, means, methods .., here I am not competent. Do you own the topic? And can you say that Tukhachevsky, Cork, Blucher, etc., were an invaluable force of the Red Army?

[8 company]

Quote: BigRiver

Do you own the topic? And can you say that Tukhachevsky, Cork, Blucher, etc., were an invaluable force of the Red Army?

Are you satisfied with the opinion of professionals?

Marshal Vasilevsky, twice Hero of the Soviet Union, who served as Deputy Chief of the USSR General Staff before the war, in an interview with Konstantin Simonov said: “What can I say about the consequences for the army in 1988–5? You say that without the thirty-seventh year there would have been no defeats in the forty-first, but I will say more. Without the thirty-seventh year, perhaps, there would have been no war at all in the forty-first year. In the fact that Hitler decided to start a war in 81, an assessment of the degree of defeat of military personnel that took place in our country played an important role. But what can I say, when in XNUMX I had to be on the commission during the transfer of the Leningrad Military District from Khozin to Meretskov, there were a number of divisions commanded by the captains, because everyone who was higher was arrested without exception. '(Simonov K. a man of my generation "," Banner ". XNUMX. number XNUMX. P. XNUMX.)

Marshal Konev, twice Hero of the Soviet Union:
"There is no doubt that if the thirty-seventh-thirty-eighth years were not, and not only in the army, but also in the party, in the country, then by the forty-first year we would have been incomparably stronger than we were."

Alexander Gorbatov, legendary commander, Hero of the Soviet Union:
"... So many devoted and responsible workers of all specialties have been arrested. This is already the grief of the whole country. Considering the inevitable and imminent war, I thought: how will the new commanders who have just been promoted to high positions conduct battles and operations? ..After all, if the division is commanded by the yesterday's battalion commander, the corps - by the regiment commander, and the army and front - by the divisional commander or his deputy ... How many unnecessary losses and setbacks will be!

Ivan Starinov, the "main saboteur" of the Red Army, declared Hitler's personal enemy:
"The repressions of 1937-38 dealt a crushing blow to the country, which affected the course of the war ... The repressions led to the fact that in the Red Army many subunits, units, and even more so formations and formations were commanded by, to put it mildly, unprepared people."

[kopar]

Thank you for the article. HONOR and GLORY to those military men who remained faithful to the oath to the end.

[bart74]

Honor and Glory for courage and loyalty!

[iouris]

Thanks to the author for the article about the real man. This must be studied at school.

[Herman 4223]

Not a bad article. About Lukin. I heard about what Stalin wrote about him after the war, but I had never seen a description of his feat anywhere before.