Mistakes of the domestic military-industrial complex: why protect Russian soldiers

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Mistakes of the domestic military-industrial complex: why protect Russian soldiers


Change of concepts


In the modern world, it is impossible to imagine a truly effective army that would not be recruited on a professional (contract) basis. And there are several reasons for this - technically complex weapons systems are becoming increasingly important, the development of which requires more and more time. As a result of this approach, the army inevitably becomes smaller in number, but qualitatively better.



This increases the qualifications, the time spent on training, and hence the value of each individual soldier. This value is expressed both financially (the cost of training and equipment), and in the context of professionalism - it will be simply impossible to make up for the loss of such personnel in a short time.

These facts increase the importance of measures aimed at the survival of well-trained soldiers on the battlefield.

When forming a professional army, this aspect is also important for psychological reasons, since a contract army implies the principle of voluntariness, and as you understand, the prospect of serving on modern protected equipment is more attractive.

In order to more fully actualize the problem in question, I consider it necessary to quote one of the comments to my last article.

You just have to learn to How motorized rifles on infantry fighting vehicles develop an offensive behind line of defensive positions of the enemy with the aim of disrupting communication lines, suppressing means of support and disrupting control, after which the enemy abruptly loses the ability to control combat, that is, to maneuver and control fire, and simply tramples down to complete surrender.

Indeed, it is foolish to seek to replace miscalculations at the strategic and tactical levels with the characteristics of military equipment.

However, it is not enough just to plan a successful maneuver. The unit must have the technical means that will allow it to carry out its plan - in the case of the example, this means the ability to deliver manpower deep into enemy territory, where it can gain a foothold. And you need to bring them there, as you understand, alive in conditions where any movement on enemy territory is somehow fraught with risks of being fired upon. And here is the time to look at what equipment we have serves as an armored personnel carrier, that is, it is designed specifically for transporting personnel.

The thickness of the armor of new (!) Armored personnel carriers in the Russian army, adopted for service in 2013, is from 8 to 12 mm. This allows you to protect the sides only from small arms. That is, it can be conditionally assumed that the side is protected from a 7,62 cartridge with a muzzle energy of up to 3 kJ (approximately this level can be provided by 500 caliber light machine guns, including the Russian Pecheneg).

It's no secret that the United States has been developing sniper weapons for decades. The muzzle energy of even a 300 Winchester Magnum is 5 J. 000 Lapua Magnum - 338 J. .6 Cheyenne Tactical - 500 J. .408 BMG - 11 J.

Based on these indicators, it will be useful to re-evaluate the adequacy of the level of protection of our armored personnel carriers. We are not even talking about the use of grenade launchers - in the conditions of the city, a sniper can work from the depths of buildings (and in other conditions from any "greenery"), minimally unmasking his position, easily shoot through an armored personnel carrier and hit people inside the equipment. First, kill the driver, and then methodically shoot the entire body.


Ukrainian sniper pair with anti-materiel rifle

However, sniper rifles are the least dangerous.

Far from being the most militarily advanced countries, Soviet KPVTs are widely used, which were installed on the ancient BTR 60 (muzzle energy 31 J). Or a 000 mm charger (23 J). Both options are handicraft installed on various platforms, including "penny" civilian pickups.

Everyone has already seen the video of the execution of the Russian BMP-2 by the Ukrainian "Bucephalus". At the same time, Bucephalus is still a modern and factory model of armored vehicles. However, in order to truly appreciate the “adequacy” of the armor level of Russian armored personnel carriers, I propose to imagine what awaits the Russian troops in the “ultra-modern” BTR-82A if such a marvel of engineering rolls out on them, as in the video below.


For clarity, I also propose to evaluate the result of shelling a BMP-2 armor element from a 12,7 mm Utes machine gun, bearing in mind that the armor of an armored personnel carrier is 2 times weaker than the armor of a BMP-2, and NATO forces put the 50th caliber wherever they can ranging from tactical buggies.


Obviously, the BTR82 simply cannot ensure the safe transportation of personnel even in the face of opposition to the enemy, armed, relatively speaking, with “carts”. Its armor is also extremely vulnerable to fragments of 122-mm and 152-mm artillery shells, which is especially true for the conflict in Ukraine.

Against this background, I propose to evaluate the very vector of modernization of the BTR-80.

The Defense Ministry decided to install 30-mm guns on these vehicles and, as you might guess, this decision does not affect the issue of personnel protection in any way. While, as follows from the name of the vehicle class - "armored personnel carrier", its Home the task is precisely the safe transportation of manpower.

And, in my opinion, our "military thought" went in some very strange way, setting priorities wrong and putting the cart before the horse. Having started the development of a wide range of combat modules, one is more fantastic than the other, half of which did not go into the series, and the other half is put on frankly "cardboard" equipment.

In order for the armored personnel carrier conceptually (and not technologically) met modern requirements, super-complex and expensive solutions are not needed at all. It is enough just to start riveting "steel boxes". The Americans created the M113 on the same principle (albeit with aluminum armor) - in the dimensions of this machine, from modern Russian steel, you can create an armored personnel carrier weighing 20-25 tons, which will hold 12,7 mm on board and 30 mm in the forehead.

The concept of a "normal" armored personnel carrier can be illustrated with a single photo below.


In fact, it's just an armored box on tracks. There is enough space inside to comfortably accommodate people - they do not get tired, being in a cramped position. A large ramp, which, in addition to the convenience of landing, also protects the legs of the landing force from fire from the front.

The dimensions of the vehicle itself, coupled with armor, make it possible to use it as a truly reliable shelter during a firefight for the entire airborne squad.

Ergonomics and work with the injured


In this chapter, I would like to try to explain how the lack of a proper armored personnel carrier is an obstacle to the development of all ground forces in the complex.

In the understanding of some people, questions of comfort and convenience do not apply to military equipment. Moreover, I still meet even some bravado about the fact that NATO soldiers are pampered hipsters who will not fight without a field McDonald's, and our soldiers are tough men who ride on top of armor.

Let's take a look at specific examples of how such bravado turns out.

Leaving the armored personnel carrier through the side hatches was inconvenient from the very beginning, but how has the appearance of the soldier changed over this time?

The weight of the wearable equipment has changed, primarily due to the means of individual armor protection. Increased wearable ammunition.

There was a need to transfer the weight of the equipment worn from the back closer to the center of gravity of the soldier - this is how “warbelts” appeared, that is, combat belts on which various pouches are attached.

Modular systems have become widespread, implying the presence of a groin plate, anti-fragmentation protection of a large area (shoulders, hips, neck).
In other words, the silhouette of an infantryman over these 50 years has decently “stout”, and his mobility and ability to perform acrobatic studies when landing from uncomfortable hatches have decreased.

In addition, the role of the “tactical body kit” has increased - night vision devices and thermal imagers on the helmet of a fighter (here one recalls Miloslavsky’s sarcastic remark - “if, of course, you have them”), as well as expensive sights on weapons.

Taken together, all this significantly aggravated what A. Timokhin wrote about in the article "Heavy armor for the Russian infantry".

All this led to such a vicious phenomenon as riding over armor. Many armies suffered from this defect in different wars, but only the Soviet and Russian armies always had it, regardless of where the war was being fought and against which enemy.

However, it is worth noting that the increased weight inevitably complicates the landing directly from the "armor" - jumping from a 2-meter height onto an uneven surface is traumatic and light. How to do this in heavier equipment, holding a weapon in your hands is a mystery.


Landing of an engineering assault unit - are there options for them to land from the BTR-82? The question is, of course, rhetorical.

It turns out that the infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers that are in service, with their conceptual backwardness (in terms of habitability and ergonomics), force the fighters to abandon modern, heavier and more effective protection and thus further exacerbate the issue of maintaining personnel.

Episode analysis



This video with the participation of the Armed Forces of Ukraine caused a quite expected ironic reaction in the Russian segment of YouTube.

However, in my opinion, this is not entirely appropriate for one simple reason - everything that happened is fully characteristic of the RF Armed Forces. First, let's take a look at what actually happened.

Infantry on 2 infantry fighting vehicles moved into position. For reasons already mentioned above, the soldiers were not located inside the vehicles, but “on the armor”. If the infantry were sitting inside the vehicles, then the commander could decide to retreat, the “smoke” would be fired and, firing, both vehicles would simply leave.

However, in the current situation, no coordinated actions between the infantry and their transport are simply impossible. The mechanic is not informed about the actions of the infantry - did they jump or not? Is it possible to return at all? At the same time, any active maneuvers necessary to get the vehicle out of the shelling as quickly as possible inevitably lead to “victims” among the personnel.

As a result, this video serves as a clear example of the inconsistency of the BTR / BMP concept existing in the Russian army. It also clearly shows the effect of the fall, which was mentioned above - not everyone was able to get up after they "landed" from their transport.

Falls regularly occur with us (the laws of physics, as you understand, act on all people equally).


It's pretty stupid to invest in training a soldier so that he falls out of the blue and breaks his neck.

medical transport


Another component of the “survivability” of our soldiers is the provision of effective medical care.

Golden hour is a term used in resuscitation to define the period of time after an injury, which allows the most effective first aid. It is believed that during this time the likelihood that the treatment will prevent the death of the patient is the highest.

In other words, the more qualified assistance is provided in the first minutes after the injury, the better the prognosis.

And here we can distinguish 3 components:

1. Qualification of the specialist who provides this assistance - the higher the qualification of the specialist, the higher its value. The more expensive its preparation. And the better it should be protected.

2. Transport must be able to provide assistance as quickly as possible, and for this it must be able to move as close as possible to the advancing units, which also dictates the requirements for security.

3. The issue of internal space - a spacious module allows you to place a lot of useful equipment. Oxygen allows for oxygenation, which automatically improves prognosis. The ventilator is very useful for such common injuries as pneumothorax - when a shrapnel or bullet pierces the chest and / or lung. The presence of a defibrillator and the stable position of the patient allow for full-fledged resuscitation.

4. Separately, it is necessary to address the issue of removing the victim from the armored personnel carrier and loading him into the transport for evacuation.

It is impossible to calculate the exact number of fighters who died in APCs in Afghanistan and Chechnya just because it was not possible to evacuate them in a timely manner, due to the exceptional complexity of this process. In addition, the very process of extracting from the side hatch, even if it can be done, is associated with a great risk of causing even more damage to the victim due to the fact that it is virtually impossible to manipulate the body in a controlled and accurate manner. As a possible result, bone fragments pierce an artery / broken ribs pierce a lung / a person simply develops a pain shock.

All or nothing


Another decision of our military-industrial complex, which simply cannot be explained rationally, is the complete rejection of the use of the most ordinary armored shields on turrets.

In combat conditions, when a car is being fired from small arms, getting out of the hatch to the waist and firing from a machine gun, where there is absolutely no protection, is already bordering on a feat. As a result, in practice, when shelling in half the cases, simply no one will stand behind a machine gun. And in cases where there is still a daredevil, there is a high probability that he will receive his medal either posthumously or in connection with the injury.

That is, we are talking not only about the life of a person who must directly fire, but also about the survival of a machine gun as a fire weapon in the unit. Thus, the unit, having lost the opportunity to use this weapon, will act less effectively and it is possible that it will suffer additional losses because of this.


It is traditionally believed that the United States is ready to fight to the last Ukrainian, but even they supply "independent" equipment with turrets.


One could come up with some excuses if it was about high-tech weapons, but when the solution to the issue lies on the surface and is technologically primitive, it’s already like in a joke “I don’t even know what to say.” Personally, I was finally finished off by the photo of the Russian Tigers delivered to ... Zambia.


What further conclusions can be drawn from this? If we look at the pricing of the same BMP-3, we will understand that the combat module costs a little more than the chassis itself. If, in addition to this, we take into account that our country has some difficulties in the production of electronic components, modern panoramic sights and thermal imagers, it becomes obvious that priority in equipment should be given first of all tanks, reconnaissance vehicles and infantry fighting vehicles.

Armored personnel carriers should be produced exclusively with turrets.


The photo above demonstrates the correct approach to the development of a new platform - a multi-ton vehicle with dynamic protection and gratings is armed with a manual turret with a 7,62 machine gun. The priorities of this machine are obvious.

In addition, there are reasons why equipping armored personnel carriers with heavier weapons (as our geniuses did) in the end is not only economically inexpedient, but also capable of leading to unwanted losses.

This reason is connected with the fact that an extremely harmful practice may arise on the ground - to “plow” equipment to solve those tasks for which it was not originally intended, and the main “calling” for such a “plow” will be disproportionate weapons.

For an example, refer to the article "Ukraine. Again, light vehicles replace the BMPT". It just describes the “canonical” case when an infantry fighting vehicle rolls out from around a corner and fires from a 30-mm cannon.

And what is the result? During the Chechen campaigns, the 30-mm cannon was only on the BMP. The APCs were armed with KPVT, as illustrated in the photo below.


And if in Chechnya, in order to “thirty-thirty”, it was necessary to call the BMP (more armored than the armored personnel carrier), now you can get by with the armored personnel carrier. This fact allows us to state that the situation has not just repeated itself (as the title of the article suggests) - it has become even worse! Against the backdrop of minimal technical progress, conceptual degradation occurred.

The right approach is to develop an integrated system in which the role of the armored personnel carrier is the role of a "bus" for the infantry. The tasks of engaging the enemy by fire must be accomplished by more suitable means.

It is noteworthy that this is also true for heavy infantry fighting vehicles. A. Timokhin exhaustively wrote about heavy infantry fighting vehicles.

You can only add in one place, namely:

Of course, we will have to strengthen the armor, and not only the frontal one. You will have to install some kind of serial combat module with a gun and anti-tank systems, fitting it into the hull (which is much easier than fitting it into the BMP-2 hull). Serial, because it is necessary inexpensively.

As the experience of using heavy infantry fighting vehicles shows, in the situations for which they are created, they simply do not have time to fire.

They quickly approach either a wrecked tank or a building (in any case, to a place that is known in advance), draw close to it, land infantry, take away the wounded, and just as quickly retreat.

Conclusions


1. Today, Russia simply does not have modern armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles.

2. Since we are talking about modernity, not with the so-called. technical equipment, and at the concept level - there are no real technical barriers to the creation of such variants of equipment.

3. Against this background, the decision to launch the BTR-82 series is, to put it mildly, debatable.

4. The lack of modern armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles comprehensively limits the development of all ground forces and leads to unnecessary losses in manpower due to complex action sets factors (poor security, disproportionate armament, riding over armor, problems with habitability, the impossibility of creating modern medical armored vehicles, restrictions on armoring an infantryman arising from terrible habitability, ergonomics and the inconvenience of landing).

5. The use of equipment without protective shields on the turrets should be excluded. This item has the greatest impact on combat effectiveness and reduction of losses in terms of the result-cost ratio.

6. In the production of modern armored personnel carriers, at least for the first time, complex combat modules should be abandoned, focusing on the amount of equipment produced, since this will have a more significant effect on the survival of our soldiers. At least in the first "transitional" period.
204 comments
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  1. +41
    6 October 2022 05: 17
    Thank you. Very interesting article. So far, our military-industrial complex has one concept - to master budget money with all sorts of piece "boomerangs", etc., for parades.
    1. +33
      6 October 2022 08: 32
      What does the military-industrial complex have to do with it? Civilian politicians simply destroyed our army and military thought.
      Here is a serial heavy armored personnel carrier based on the T-72. BMO-T is called. Yes, there are drawbacks, but solvable. I would increase the fighting compartment and put folding shields for landing.

      Here is a heavy armored personnel carrier based on the T-55. BTR-T is called.

      Here is a fantasy on the theme of a heavy infantry fighting vehicle. BMO-T + BM Boomerang. Looks very organic.

      A very interesting project based on the BMP-3 is called Manul. This is a BMP-3 with a stern ramp and a BM Boomerang. It is only necessary to additionally protect the DZ of the Cactus type or score on buoyancy and reinforce it with armor sheets with bars. No worse than Kurganets, but it will go into production cheaper and faster because it is based on a serial machine.


      The military-industrial complex did everything, even in metal. The above written can be in the army for six months. Questions to our politicians.
      1. -7
        6 October 2022 09: 29
        And how many of your "heavy armored personnel carriers" have been delivered to the troops at the moment? I didn’t even see plans for their really mass production ...
        1. +1
          7 October 2022 22: 49
          In recent years, the Ministry of Defense and military-industrial complex enterprises have been "butting" because of the cost of products, so it was difficult to introduce something new. The military met any increase in spending "with hostility" and preferred to replace it with the modernization of obsolete equipment.
          1. 0
            13 October 2022 19: 20
            In recent years, the Ministry of Defense and military-industrial complex enterprises have been "butting" because of the cost of products, so it was difficult to introduce something new.


            The whole problem is that all these manufacturers of JSC, PJSC, LLC where in the Charter of any such enterprise the main goal is Profit. All complex, science-intensive products, and heavy weapons, should be produced by enterprises with 100% participation. To allow R&D and all developments at the request of the RF Ministry of Defense with long development and payback periods with long-term government funding.
            Without much thinking about the percentage of profit, though not forgetting about profitability.
            1. +1
              14 October 2022 13: 20
              No one will go to 100% participation now. Since, according to the latest requirements, the organization is now developing at its own expense, and if the military accepts it, then the costs are compensated. And if we return to 100% participation, then all failed work will have to be financed by the Ministry of Defense.
              1. 0
                14 October 2022 19: 46
                And if we return to 100% participation, then all failed work will have to be financed by the Ministry of Defense.


                Who prevents setting adequate tasks and requirements for development, at the same time not forgetting about personal responsibility (with confiscation of property). If you delve into our history, many will be surprised why Korolev was imprisoned, but there was no politics there, but there was no targeted use of funds. . . . .
                1. 0
                  15 October 2022 10: 46
                  Adequate task is a very vague concept. In fact, it consists of the competence of the customer and the contractor. If someone does not have the necessary knowledge, then the task becomes inadequate, and, in principle, it can be done and, for example, has already been solved by representatives of another country.
      2. +11
        6 October 2022 10: 55
        Quote from cold wind

        The military-industrial complex did everything, even in metal. The above written can be in the army for six months. Questions to our politicians.

        And what about politicians? Questions to the generals of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. They order the industry equipment and weapons. And specifically - to the deputy. Minister of Defense for Armaments. But he, I am sure, does not read articles and comments on articles on VO.
        1. +31
          6 October 2022 11: 21
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk

          And what about politicians? Questions to the generals of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. They order the industry equipment and weapons. And specifically - to the deputy. Minister of Defense for Armaments.

          Because the army has been run by civilian politicians since 2001. Since that year, there have been no military ministers of defense. They appoint generals by negative selection.

          Let's talk about the Deputy Minister for Armaments, his name is Krivoruchko, Aleksey Yuryevich, an economist by training, he never served in the army, his daughters have US citizenship, he has experience in the military-industrial complex in managerial positions, where he successfully set up schemes to embezzle state money, for the benefit of economic education allows, was appointed deputy minister by civil politician S.K. Shoigu.
          Now you understand where politics and the reasons for the lack of normal weapons have to do with it?
          1. +1
            6 October 2022 12: 59
            Quote from cold wind
            A very interesting project based on the BMP-3 is called Manul. This is a BMP-3 with a stern ramp .......
            The article analyzes in detail the video with the Ukrainian BMP. Can you tell me how to leave the BMP, which has an exit back along the ramp, while the driver takes the car out of the shelling, as in this video? Or how to leave the armored car, which moves in a column, from the rear ramp, and not be under the wheels of the next car?
            This is me about the praises in the direction of the mandatory exit back along the ramp to the detriment of all other options (the main reason for abandoning the BTR-90 is that it has an exit to the sides, not back.)
            1. +15
              6 October 2022 13: 13
              Exactly the same as in the US Armed Forces, Israel, Turkey and other more or less modern armies of the world
              1. Leave. Together with the landing party from under fire, because they are under armor, then land the landing party in a safe place.
              2. Take the fight. Turn the BMP forward (which, by an amazing coincidence, is the strongest place) in the direction of firing and land troops through the rear ramp. Combined actions of motorized riflemen and armored vehicles to destroy the enemy.
              1. 0
                6 October 2022 13: 21
                Quote from cold wind
                2. Turn the BMP forward (which, by an amazing coincidence, is the strongest place) in the direction of firing and land troops through the rear ramp.

                That is, the enemy fires from only one place, and if all the people line up behind the armored personnel carrier, the enemy will not hit anyone? But what if there is more than one shooter, and the shooters are distributed along the front and from the sides they see those who are attached behind the armored personnel carrier?
                1. +6
                  6 October 2022 13: 50
                  Quote: Bad_gr

                  That is, the enemy fires from only one place, and if all the people line up behind the armored personnel carrier, the enemy will not hit anyone?

                  Be surprised but 'line up in columnbehind, on the side and even in front of the APC is a very bad idea if you are being shot at. Therefore, adequate people (just people, not even soldiers, and even more so officers) disperse and use artificial and natural shelters. Armed men are still firing from these shelters.
                  It is impossible to be near the tank / infantry fighting vehicle / armored personnel carrier, this is a priority target and the concentration of fire on it will be maximum.
                  The task of the ramp is to make it possible to leave the armored personnel carrier / infantry fighting vehicle as quickly as possible. Soldiers with ~ 40 kg of various ammunition, equipment, ammunition and weapons.
                  1. -5
                    6 October 2022 14: 05
                    Quote from cold wind
                    Surprise, but "line up" behind, on the side and even in front of the APC is a very bad idea if you are being shot at.
                    Then, what advantages over other options does the rear ramp provide? The same side exits have the option for the fighter to exit from the side of the armored personnel carrier where they shoot less (or there are natural shelters). And when shelling columns, a side exit provides an exit to the side, where an armored personnel carrier covers from a bullet. In this case, the exit from behind the BTR-BMP, at least along the ramp, at least without it, immediately under the bullets.
                    1. +4
                      6 October 2022 14: 27
                      Quote: Bad_gr
                      Then, what advantages over other options does the rear ramp provide? The same side exits have the option for the fighter to exit from the side of the armored personnel carrier where they shoot less (or there are natural shelters). And when shelling columns, a side exit provides an exit to the side, where an armored personnel carrier covers from a bullet. In this case, the exit from behind the BTR-BMP, at least along the ramp, at least without it, immediately under the bullets.

                      Again. A fighter in modern ammunition (~ 40kg), standard height and physique with very great effort is placed in the BTR-60/70/80 hatch. They were made for soldiers with ammunition (~15 kg) in 60-70, side hatches cannot be made larger due to design features.
                      The crew of armored vehicles must turn their vehicle to the sector from which they fire at it (it is defined no more than 30-45 degrees) in the most protected place i.e. forehead. This ensures the safety of the vehicle and troops.
                      Those. exit from the stern is faster and safer. In 99% of cases, the rear ramp (door edge) is more efficient, everyone understands this. Therefore, all new developments of armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles come with just such an arrangement of exits. There are some rare developments with additional hatches, but the main aft exit.
                      1. -4
                        6 October 2022 15: 06
                        Quote from cold wind
                        Again. A fighter in modern ammunition (~ 40 kg), of standard height and physique with very great effort is placed in the BTR-60/70/80 hatch .....

                        BTR-60/70/80/90 is an evolutionary development of the armored personnel carriers of our school, designed according to our vision of what tasks they should perform. But the creation of the K-16 "Boomerang" is already the Wishlist of Serdyukov's managers, who took information about how an armored personnel carrier should be, riding around foreign exhibitions. The result of combining these Wishlist and what our military needs exactly is what we see - these vehicles are not in the troops (You can’t harness in one cart / A horse and a quivering doe).
                        Quote from cold wind
                        .... side hatches cannot be made larger due to design features.
                        And why is that ? Here is the BTR-90 hatch. I don’t know what size it was for the BTR-90, but what prevents it from doing more?

                        Pay attention to the thickness of the side hatch:

                        By the way, the BTR-90 variant was proposed, which, in addition to the side ones, also had a rear exit (an engine under the floor, like the BMP-3, and an exit on top of it). Dimensions of BTR-90 compared to BTR-80
                      2. +1
                        7 October 2022 09: 00
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        And why is that ? Here is the BTR-90 hatch. I don’t know what size it was for the BTR-90, but what prevents it from doing more?

                        Physics interferes. This is the center of the car body. What is stiffness and stiffener do you know? Can you imagine what the “cuts” in the sides lead to?
                      3. -2
                        7 October 2022 12: 48
                        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                        What is stiffness and stiffener do you know?
                        I don't see a problem here. After all, I do not propose to engage in alteration in a handicraft workshop, but what is done at the factory is initially calculated and incorporated into the design.
                        There were armored personnel carriers with canvas tops, where the issue of stiffness is not the last, but it is completely solved.
                      4. 0
                        7 October 2022 14: 07
                        I don't see a problem here.

                        See no further.
                        What do you want me to do your education here?

                        You write nonsense.
                        What kind of doors do you have at home?
                        It is clear to the child that the most ergonomic, comfortable and convenient way to exit is in full growth, without stepping over anything, without clinging to shoulders.
                        It's the BEST it can be.

                        You drown for some kind of perversion.
                        Meaningless...
                        Make such doors for yourself at home if you don’t understand.

                        The article asked a simple question - how will you get the wounded and how will you load it? Try starting with this question, maybe something will clear up in your head.
                      5. -4
                        7 October 2022 15: 38
                        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                        What do you want me to do your education here?

                        Yes, where can I go. Moreover, judging by your comments, you yourself are not okay with this.
                        I see no point in further discussion with you.
                    2. +1
                      6 October 2022 17: 23
                      Here, recently they showed something called "Chekan" on the basis of the Urals, there are 2 exits, a door to the side and a ramp back. But then again. it is worth saying that this is a "bus".
                2. +2
                  6 October 2022 16: 09
                  For some reason, people do not take into account that more often columns are fired from the flanks. just at the exit. What about in Ukraine, what earlier, in Chechnya. And recently, on the air, they showed the delivery of drugs on an infantry fighting vehicle to the front of 4 infantry fighting vehicles, and all these infantry fighting vehicles were placed with brami to the place of shelling, so that when dismounting, the fighters would first dive from the other side and then move into the green. But we always have the smartest on the couch.
            2. +1
              6 October 2022 17: 20
              the main reason for abandoning the BTR-90 is that it has an exit to the sides, and not back

              I suspect that the main reason for abandoning it is still finances.
              And the question as a whole is very competent. The fact that something needs to be done with the existing light BT seems to be obvious to everyone, but what exactly - here, in my opinion, not a single pack of copies will be broken.
              1. -2
                6 October 2022 19: 03
                And what is it with the BTR-82A that you need to do such a special thing? A very formidable and at the same time light combat vehicle. There are small questions or wishes, why 2A72 and not 2A42, why are the hatches on the roof uncomfortable?
                And so we are waiting in addition to the heavy BMP T-15, but not as a replacement, but as an addition.
                And to replace the BTR-90 or something like that.
                1. +3
                  6 October 2022 20: 49
                  Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                  why 2A72 and not 2A42 ...
                  I think there is only one option: the recoil of the 2a72 is three times lower than that of the 2a42. And the weight is less (84 kg versus 115 kg)
                  1. +1
                    6 October 2022 20: 57
                    It is unlikely. I myself once bought into this misinformation about the great return from 2A42. The Tulamashzavod software in the open press gives feedback about a slightly higher return on the 2A72. The same conclusion can be drawn from the presence of a muzzle brake in 2A42, so the return will be less. The 2A72 does not have a muzzle brake, otherwise there would not be enough energy for the automation to work when the barrel rolls back.
                    The choice of the gun for the BMP-3 was due to the lower gas contamination of the fighting compartment. But why the same gun was chosen for the BTR-82A is not entirely clear, it seems that the problem of gas pollution was not there. On a more modern module "Spoke" again stands 2A42.
                    1. +1
                      6 October 2022 22: 39
                      Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                      The Tulamashzavod software in the open press gives feedback about a slightly higher return on the 2A72.
                      Yes, indeed, the return is almost the same (the 2A72 has a little more)
                      http://www.tulamash.ru/catalog/14 - тут по 2а42
                      http://www.tulamash.ru/catalog/15 - 2а72

                      According to 2a42 there is one nuance:
                      The basis of the return mechanism is a reciprocating mainspring. She shrinks with effort 600 kgf, so the cocking of moving parts cannot be done directly by hand, as in a machine gun. For cocking moving parts on the butt plate of the gun there is a handle with a ratchet device. Arming time about 20 s. The handle after cocking must be fixed in its original position. It is much faster to cock using a squib by pressing a button on the control unit, but squibs- them 3 pc. - should be protected to eliminate delays when firing, for example, during a misfire .......
                      http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/guns/2a42.html

                      2a72 is manually reloaded without problems.
                2. +1
                  7 October 2022 00: 02
                  Do you have any questions or wishes?

                  There are actually large ones, covered in the article.
                  First and foremost, in my opinion, this is a matter of ergonomics. Too small doors and too crowded inside.
                  why 2A72 and not 2A42

                  Seriously? is that your question? Because the 2A42 recoil will not withstand the body of a light car.
                  And to replace the BTR-90 or something like that.

                  BTR-90 will not be the same. Was in the plans Kurganets. But his fate is not clear.
                  1. +1
                    7 October 2022 07: 44
                    I would venture to suggest that you have no practice of traveling on armored vehicles at all. An armored personnel carrier, compared to an infantry fighting vehicle, is just a bus, it is spacious and has a very smooth ride.
                    About the return of 2A42 it is written a little higher, do not take it for work, check it out.
                    1. +1
                      7 October 2022 10: 34
                      you have no practice of traveling in armored vehicles at all

                      Missing. How do you think it is possible to get out of it in what is drawn in the article?
                      About the return of 2A42 it is written a little higher

                      Was reading. An opinion was expressed about the 2A72 recoil momentum, which was more extended in time, I don’t know how justified this is from the point of view of physics. In addition, after all, there are 2 modifications of them 2A72 for the BMP-3 and for the BTR turret under the same index. The latter is fast-paced. Maybe this is not docking with the recoil momentum and the load on the body?
                      1. 0
                        7 October 2022 12: 01
                        Somehow the fighter climbed into the car and got out of it.

                        The doors can be expanded, there are no restrictions on armor plates.
                        As for the return, the question is confusing to the point of impossibility. In the same BMP-2, recoil is not felt at all, only the clang of iron is heard. Where the supposedly large return and the impact on the body came from is not clear.
                        But in the BMP-1, with a comparable powder charge, the recoil is much stronger, but for some reason there are no stories about the impact on the hull.
                      2. 0
                        7 October 2022 13: 09
                        I suppose that the issue is not just the recoil from a single projectile, but in general the load on the hull when firing a burst. The hull of the BMP is still stronger than the armored personnel carrier. In general, I am not inclined to question the fact that there were technical reasons for installing this gun. The very fact of installing a 30mm cannon on an armored personnel carrier was called a serious engineering achievement ("Military Acceptances", of course, is another source for technical information).

                        And in terms of recoil in the BMP-1, after all, it depends not only on the powder charge, but also on the mass of the projectile being thrown.
                      3. +2
                        7 October 2022 14: 20
                        Somehow the fighter climbed into the car and got out of it.

                        The key word is "somehow".
                        Uncomfortable, he left.

                        In your photo, no equipment at all.
                        And without modern protection.

                        Don't you understand that a rectangular door... of correct geometry... is the most optimal way... of getting in and out of anything? Do you have the same doors at home as on the BTR-82? If not... what's the point?

                        How are you going to bring the wounded there?
                      4. -1
                        7 October 2022 14: 40
                        Where does the conclusion follow that a rectangular door is optimal for military equipment? Hatches, in general, are made either round or rounded.
                        For the evacuation of the wounded, there are separate vehicles from MTLB to the modern "Lens"
                        Nautical themes are much better for you.
                3. -4
                  7 October 2022 16: 46
                  Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
                  . There are small questions or wishes why 2A72 and not 2A42
                  .

                  Well, it’s hard to find a dumber question than the fact that the recoil of the 72nd is 3 times less bothers you?
                  1. +3
                    7 October 2022 17: 44
                    Is it weak to read a few messages above in order to be convinced of one's own incompetence and get acquainted with reality?
                    1. 0
                      7 October 2022 18: 11
                      I read it, I’m sorry, how they screwed up on the Tiger then 2A72 I’ll never know ... because its performance is even higher, although the rate of fire is lower
                      1. +2
                        7 October 2022 18: 41
                        Accepted, but did not come across how they put it on the "Tiger". They install guns on the Typhoon-Airborne Forces and the Shot, for the Tiger it is really large.
            3. 0
              8 October 2022 12: 33
              The question is - what prevents you from making doors in both directions and a ramp back, even during the development of the car? Considering the rigidity of the case and so on. There are three doors in swamps, and one in armored vehicles.
              But historically, robots like "Platform-m" will soon appear, which, for all their pluses, have a small power reserve, and which also need to be taken and dropped off.
          2. +1
            6 October 2022 20: 18
            Quote from cold wind
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk

            And what about politicians? Questions to the generals of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. They order the industry equipment and weapons. And specifically - to the deputy. Minister of Defense for Armaments.

            Because the army has been run by civilian politicians since 2001. Since that year, there have been no military ministers of defense. They appoint generals by negative selection.

            Let's talk about the Deputy Minister for Armaments, his name is Krivoruchko, Aleksey Yuryevich, an economist by training, he never served in the army, his daughters have US citizenship, he has experience in the military-industrial complex in managerial positions, where he successfully set up schemes to embezzle state money, for the benefit of economic education allows, was appointed deputy minister by civil politician S.K. Shoigu.
            Now you understand where politics and the reasons for the lack of normal weapons have to do with it?

            Wow... very interesting information. I do not want to draw unambiguous conclusions, but the information prompts reflection.
            The first question is what criteria are used to select such positions and where the FSB is looking.
            1. 0
              6 October 2022 21: 26
              Finally, we began to look for the names of all the Krivruks! In fact, traitors
          3. +3
            6 October 2022 22: 42
            I agree, and I will add ... Do not forget that civil politicians also participate in the formation of the budget of the Moscow Region. With the light hand of Kudrin (when he was Minister of Finance), dozens of military schools were abolished! Dozens! As a result - the civilian top leadership of the Moscow Region! Where to get staff? Yes, and they are successfully wrapping up more promising military commissar projects ... As a result, a monstrous number of problems and criminal omissions.
            1. -1
              7 October 2022 23: 06
              Expert, all modern armored vehicles appeared under Serdyukov, even the Tiger-M with mine protection appeared under him.
              It was under him that they began to put the life of the military in the first place, because of which there was a hysteria about the production of Italian Iveco, the best in the world at that time
        2. +2
          6 October 2022 12: 23
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          And what about politicians? Questions to the generals of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. They order the industry equipment and weapons. And specifically - to the deputy. Minister of Defense for Armaments.

          There are no people who "see" the trend in the development of technology, and the goals of preserving l / s are not visible. There are only those sitting at all levels and positions. If all their lives they were rushing to the feeder, to a calm and well-fed life, what changes, what thoughts about the restructuring of the whole way of thinking? They are so good.
        3. +2
          6 October 2022 21: 12
          academy of the General Staff as a passage yard in the General Staff!
          who left the country without armored vehicles in 4g
          Shevchenko Alexander Alexandrovich - Head of the Main Armored Directorate (GABTU) of the Ministry of Defense of Russia (2009-2019) Since April 2019 - Deputy General Director of KamAZ PJSC for special projects
          Major General Bibik, Sergey Vladimirovich - Head of the Main Armored Directorate of the Russian Ministry of Defense (2019-2021)
          Honored Military Specialist of the Russian Federation
          Since January 24, 2022, the head of the Main Armored Directorate of the Russian Ministry of Defense is Major General Shestakov Alexander Anatolyevich
      3. +1
        6 October 2022 17: 08
        Article Super Yes, if you can endure bullying of personnel, all this variety of armored personnel carriers with guns does not solve the main task of protecting crews and troops. They are transporting BMP 1 with the Busurmanin module, they couldn’t deliver it to third world countries, so they began to deliver it to the Russian army, so for me, remove the thunder gun from BMP 1, put a remote module with a 12,7 mm machine gun or PKT there, and let them all bring it up and quickly shoot
      4. +2
        7 October 2022 10: 54
        Yes, in order to coordinate and launch so many kickbacks in a series, you will have to lay out!
      5. +1
        7 October 2022 16: 13
        Quote from cold wind
        Here is a serial heavy armored personnel carrier based on the T-72. BMO-T is called. Yes, there are disadvantages

        The disadvantages of such a TBTR are fundamental - line-up. Very inconvenient entry-exit, because the engine is behind and there is no way to install a ramp. The correct layout scheme for such a TBTR was proposed by the designers of the Kharkiv KhTZ based on the T-55 and T-64 hulls (the type of tank is essentially not important here), in which the engine, as expected, is in the front, as a result of which the MTO is additional protection for the crew and landing troops with a frontal projection, allows you to make a large, spacious troop compartment for 14 - 16 people. , allows you to ensure good habitability of the landing force in any (!) Equipment, convenient and safe landing with the installation of a ramp, the possibility of using such a TBTR not only for the delivery of troops, but also for the evacuation of the wounded, the creation of an ambulance evacuation vehicle based on it, a command and staff vehicle , reconnaissance, RHBZ vehicles - for heavy assault infantry units.
        I agree with the author that the combat module for such a TBTR should be fairly light and inexpensive. And serial - already existing, because we have a lot of different ones. It can be any of their machine guns or, in extreme cases, a combat module from the BTR-82A.
        On the other hand, if all of a sudden there is a desire to receive an infantry fighting vehicle with such a level of protection (and I believe that this is not needed, because infantry after landing should be provided with fire support by BMPT (ShMPP), which will perform these functions much better), then it (TBMP) can be obtained by simply installing the appropriate uninhabited combat module on the TBTR hull.
        As a result, heavy assault infantry should be armed with:
        - OBT,
        - BMPT (SHMPP),
        - TBTR.
        ALL !
        All these machines should be created on a single base, a single chassis, for maximum unification and ease of development, maintenance and repair.
        TBTR should be structurally simple, using exclusively available design and technical solutions, components, assemblies and combat modules.
        To resolve the issue of providing the Army with such vehicles in the shortest possible time, it is necessary to use the tank corps available at the storage bases to create the TBTR - from the T-72 tanks of early modifications, the T-80 of the first modifications and the T-64 hull (of which there are about 4000 units at the storage bases .) .
        The same hulls (from early tank modifications) can be used to create the BMPT-72 ("Terminator-2") by installing a combat module instead of a turret. This will greatly reduce the cost and speed up the production of such machines.
      6. 0
        7 October 2022 23: 02
        What is military thought? During the two Chechen wars, all military thought was limited only to thrusting an armored bottle into the back of a truck.
        Some idea appeared only under Serdyukov, under whom the production of Ivecao was established, from which the production of Typhoons grew. Boomerangs and so on, but Shoigu quickly buried everything and again began to buy trash
      7. 0
        15 October 2022 11: 45
        So, what is the armored volume of the T55? How many fighters fit instead of BC to the gun? Wangyu, that 4-re is nothing more. How about landing? From the back of the engine, along the sides of the caterpillar, will we land through the only hatch from the top? Well, what for a goat button accordion - this freak of the army? It also eats fuel, if not all, and the resource is extremely small.
    2. 0
      6 October 2022 08: 37
      Quote: Sergey028
      Thank you. Very interesting article. So far, our military-industrial complex has one concept - to master budget money with all sorts of piece "boomerangs", etc., for parades.

      Look to the root! But there are no gay parades.
    3. +6
      6 October 2022 09: 12
      About wheeled vehicles and how you can work.
      The development of the new armored car Z-STS ("Protected Special Vehicle") was carried out by the Remdiesel plant from Naberezhnye Chelny (KAMAZ). He has extensive experience in the creation and production of modern armored vehicles, which was used in the new project. The armored car was created by order of one of the power structures from Chechnya. In this regard, the finished sample received the unofficial name "Akhmat".

      Reportedly, the order for the development of the future Z-STS was received this spring, shortly after the start of the Special Operations in Ukraine. The Chechen security forces wanted to get an armored car that was easy to manufacture and operate, with the ability to transport personnel and various cargoes, as well as with weapons for self-defense and fire support.

      The project development activities took only 25 days. Already in early May, Remdiesel manufactured and handed over to the customer the first armored vehicles of a new type. On May 9 they were shown at the parade in Grozny. Then the equipment went to the zone of the Special Operation, where it was placed at the disposal of the special forces. In fact, the armored cars had to be tested immediately in real combat conditions.

      On July 22, the head of Chechnya, Ramzan Kadyrov, announced that a new batch of armored cars had been purchased for the needs of the army.


      This is what happens when the customer understands what is needed, and the manufacturer knows how to work. Yes, not MRAP, but the security is at a good level, sufficient for an armored car.

      There is a BTR-87 project for a wheeled armored personnel carrier / infantry fighting vehicle. Remove the requirement for buoyancy, strengthen the chassis, hang DZ and / or armor plates with bars. BM to choose from, there are a lot of them. Based on the serial BTR-80, so there are no problems with the price and production. Although in this case the BTR / BMP Boomerang should be brought to the series, it has advantages.



      Again, everything is there, even in metal. You need to work with your head.
    4. +6
      6 October 2022 12: 51
      ... in general, of course, the NWO revealed a depressing picture in the army .... the mood is getting worse every day ...
      1. +4
        6 October 2022 14: 35
        Quote from WBond
        ... in general, of course, the NWO revealed a depressing picture in the army ....

        For me, no. It has been obvious for a long time. A lot has been written about this in articles and comments. With armored vehicles of the 60-70s, aviation of the 80-90s, communications, intelligence and tactics of the Second World War, you won’t gain much. The war is not even with a NATO country or one of the leading countries in Asia. And only with the support and small deliveries of weapons by NATO countries.
      2. 0
        6 October 2022 21: 32
        Brest peace is waiting for us! The board of the GDP will look like Nikalai 2?16 years maximum for a politician, then with him there is a regression and then the scrapping of the entire system with him and his like-minded
        1. +6
          6 October 2022 22: 30
          No. This war is similar to the Soviet-Finnish. And the result will be the same ... Peace with the transfer of part of the territories to us. And then - BIG war! Because many will consider (yes, they already think so) that the Russian army is an "ear with clay feet" ...
          1. +2
            7 October 2022 10: 58
            I wonder who contributed to the fact that both the Russian Federation and its military-industrial complex became "a colossus with feet of clay"? Thriving cut, barryzhnichestvo and kickbacks. So no budget...
          2. 0
            7 October 2022 21: 44
            Only now lend-lease to the other side
    5. +1
      7 October 2022 12: 53
      It is not necessary to transfer from a sick head to a healthy one. The military-industrial complex is working according to the terms of reference of the military, they would write in the TOR that powerful armor is needed - the military-industrial complex would not regret steel. And if the main requirement of the military is that combat vehicles be able to cross water barriers - so they swim like a flower in an ice hole!
      1. -3
        7 October 2022 23: 10
        The Soviet military-industrial complex cannot give birth to anything, it can only modernize Soviet rubbish.
        Only Serdyukov managed to give a kick and with him a private military-industrial complex appeared, which gave birth to the same drones and Typhoon MCIs
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. +16
    6 October 2022 05: 35
    As a result, this video serves as a clear example of the inconsistency of the BTR / BMP concept existing in the Russian army.
    It is strange to read this - after all, the BMP has an exit through the rear doors!

    Another decision of our military-industrial complex, which simply cannot be explained rationally, is the complete rejection of the use of the most ordinary armored shields on turrets.
    This is already beyond understanding, hello, author, all domestic armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles have TOWERS! And the fact that the author further deduces the uselessness of towers on the basis of the high cost of optics is already rinsing the mind of readers.

    The photo above demonstrates the correct approach to the development of a new platform - a multi-ton vehicle with dynamic protection and gratings is armed with a manual turret with a 7,62 machine gun.
    The photo is clearly an auxiliary vehicle, not an infantry fighting vehicle!

    As the experience of using heavy infantry fighting vehicles shows, in the situations for which they are created, they simply do not have time to fire.
    They quickly approach either a wrecked tank or a building (in any case, to a place that is known in advance), draw close to it, land infantry, take away the wounded, and just as quickly retreat.
    Is it true? The most epic shots with the participation of the BMP-1 are a little contradictory
    https://vk.com/video-81326210_456241037
    https://rutube.ru/video/9dcace5d79f911dafbf20b64c88e7363/

    I don’t see the logic in the author’s constructions, but I see crooked conclusions based on the forced release of the BTR-82.
    1. 0
      6 October 2022 08: 25
      Sit down - two.
      Next time write when you understand at least something from what you read.
      Pearl with an example of BMP 1 in the context of a heavy one was especially pleased.
      1. +7
        6 October 2022 08: 33
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        Pearl with an example of BMP 1 in the context of a heavy one was especially pleased.

        Now give examples of the impossibility of firing from a heavy infantry fighting vehicle during the evacuation of fighters, I've given the usual one ...
        In the meantime, you have a swan with a bent neck.
        1. +6
          6 October 2022 09: 36
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          I brought with the usual ...
          In the meantime, you have a swan with a bent neck.

          Dear Volodimer....
          It is unfortunate that you have to chew on elementary things like a lagging student.

          Modern combat is a TEAM event, in which different weapon systems complement each other.
          Everyone has their own role. You are now talking about shooting ... there is someone to shoot.
          Wagon and small trolley.

          The task of a heavy armored personnel carrier, similar to the Israeli one, is to provide MANEUVER to the infantry.
          In conditions when the enemy can FIRE certain areas.

          The average work of a heavy armored personnel carrier in the city looks like this - they call the commander, show him from a safe place where he needs to go and landmarks.
          - Here you go with the tank to that post, then the tank sharply goes to the right and shoots. As soon as he fired - give gas! and you fly 300 meters to that house. You stick your muzzle into the house, land the infantry, unload the ammo, take the wounded and the same thing in reverse order.

          If especially gifted people have an idea in their head ... to leave with the tank .. or stop halfway and shoot "during the evacuation of soldiers" ... according to the principle "why not." How do you write...
          give examples of the impossibility of firing from a heavy infantry fighting vehicle
          then this is already a specialist honey. profile.
        2. +3
          6 October 2022 09: 45
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          This is already beyond understanding, hello, author, all domestic armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles have TOWERS! And the fact that the author further deduces the uselessness of towers on the basis of the high cost of optics is already rinsing the mind of readers.

          I also really liked this pearl of yours.

          This is already beyond understanding, hello, author, all domestic armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles have TOWERS!

          Especially for the youngest readers, I posted both videos and pictures showing lightly armored jeeps - American Humvees and Russian Tigers.

          On the roof of which a MACHINE GUN is installed.
          To fire from which it is supposed to rise to the waist.
          It doesn't seem to bother you.
          Because the armored personnel carrier has a tower ...
          Brilliant. Alcohol kills Volodymyr's brain. Drop it.

          You were also not embarrassed by the arguments that the main task of an armored personnel carrier is not to have a tower ... or a modern combat module ... but to have adequate armor protection. Primarily.
          But it's too hard for you.
          1. +1
            6 October 2022 10: 27
            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            Especially for the youngest readers, I posted both videos and pictures showing lightly armored jeeps - American Humvees and Russian Tigers.
            A sample of logic is an article about armored personnel carriers and pictures about light armored cars. An article about an armored personnel carrier, and a picture with an auxiliary vehicle.

            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            If especially gifted people have an idea in their head ... to leave with the tank .. or stop halfway and shoot "during the evacuation of soldiers" ... according to the principle "why not."
            Hello, dear author. The video clearly shows the fire ON THE GO, and from the GUNS! Then you can clearly see the fire from behind the shelter (the wrecked car), how talented do you have to be to ignore this?

            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            You drive up to that post with the tank, then the tank abruptly moves to the right and shoots. As soon as he fired - give gas! and you fly 300 meters to that house. You stick your muzzle into the house, land the infantry, unload the ammo, take the wounded and the same thing in reverse order.
            And there is no tank, but there are wounded, and then what? Fire from an unstabilized turret with a rifle caliber on the go?
            Yes, and your example looks doubtful, it doesn’t look like you understand the realities, you can see from the last article.


            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            Dear Volodimer....
            It is unfortunate that you have to chew on elementary things like a lagging student.

            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            then this is already a specialist honey. profile.

            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            Especially for the youngest readers

            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            Brilliant. Alcohol kills Volodymyr's brain.

            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            But it's too hard for you.

            Yeah ... You can immediately see an intelligent person. He distorts the name of the opponent, hints at his alcoholism, mental disability and falling into childhood. The strongest arguments... laughing
            1. -1
              6 October 2022 12: 56
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              Sample logic - an article about armored personnel carriers and pictures about light armored cars

              The article, containing in the title "why protect Russian soldiers" touches on issues of lightly armored vehicles, armored shields on machine guns and personal armor protection. Marvelous.
              Let's call someone from the elders to help you orient yourself)

              and a picture with an auxiliary machine.

              Hmm ..
          2. +2
            6 October 2022 12: 49
            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            which depict lightly armored jeeps - American Humvees and Russian Tigers.

            The author is now putting the Crossbow on the Tigers and there is no need to stick out anywhere. Joystick and monitor. Remove the crown from your head ..
            1. +1
              6 October 2022 13: 28
              Quote: Edik
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              which depict lightly armored jeeps - American Humvees and Russian Tigers.

              The author is now putting the Crossbow on the Tigers and there is no need to stick out anywhere. Joystick and monitor. Remove the crown from your head ..

              The crossbow is a disproportionately expensive combat module.
              It is advisable to use it only for a limited number of specialized vehicles (reconnaissance, border control, airborne forces).

              And I don't understand what you are arguing about?
              The fact that out of 1000 cars, conditionally, 100 will be with a crossbow, and 900 will be empty.
              I propose to put a shield on these empty ones for 5 kopecks.
              You write something slurred ... what are you arguing with here?

              Or do you not understand the advantages of a mechanical turret in combined arms operations?
        3. 0
          6 October 2022 11: 10
          BMP-1 has 16-mm and 18-mm side armor
          but in general it is necessary to develop PPE based on ceramics
          the same Warrior with silicon carbide plates
          you need to increase the area of ​​​​protection by adding plates to the thighs, lower leg, forearm
          rework the Vulkan-5 helmet (LShZ-5 4,5 kg.) under a steel visor with ceramics
          + add a wider occipital protection for unloading on the shoulder girdle
          - the helmet body provides all-round protection when fired from a distance of 5 meters from a 7,62 mm SVD rifle with an LPS bullet and a 7,62 AKM PS bullet with a steel thermo-strengthened core

          Rosich assault body armor with thigh protection - needs to be finalized

          assault body armor Redut-T5 - also need additional. protection
          1. +7
            6 October 2022 12: 54
            As soon as you fall in this tree while running, you're dead.
            1. +4
              6 October 2022 13: 22
              let's count
              protection area up to 1,2 sq.m.
              silicon carbide weight 10 kg thickness 5 mm per 1 sq.m. x 1,2 sq.m. = 12 kg
              steel equivalent x 4
              Americans use boron carbide equivalent x 8, weight 1 sq.m. x 1 cm = 10 kg
              Ratnik protection area 0,47 sq.m. in assault rope weighs 16 kg
              1. +3
                6 October 2022 13: 33
                A Roman man is not a tank, and often in battle, fighters prefer speed and convenience to long armor.
    2. +6
      6 October 2022 11: 06
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      The photo is clearly an auxiliary vehicle, not an infantry fighting vehicle!

      In the photo - armored personnel carrier. The way he should be. And not the way it became with us - when the remedy safe delivery of infantry to the battlefield was turned into a means of fire support for infantry on the battlefield, while scoring the main function. Chasing firepowerwhy build an infantry fighting vehicle - let's save money and put its weapons on an armored personnel carrier), we forgot about security or could not implement it.
      In fact, all of our armored personnel carriers have crawled into the class of wheeled infantry fighting vehicles. But at the same time, their reservation was preserved from the armored personnel carrier half a century ago. It turned out the classic "eggshell, armed with hammers."
      1. -1
        6 October 2022 11: 43
        Quote: Alexey RA
        In the photo - armored personnel carrier.

        And yes, indeed an armored personnel carrier - only the armored personnel carrier is much newer than the BTR-82 (2009), directly by a lot, secondly tracked, and thirdly with a senile turret and a rifle-caliber machine gun.
        Quote: Alexey RA
        we forgot about security or could not implement it.
        Kurganets and Boomerang? No, well, the prospects for adoption are one thing, but the actual defense is excuse me.
        Quote: Alexey RA
        It turned out the classic "eggshell, armed with hammers."
        It's better than just an eggshell, and when used correctly, it's no worse than "a steel helmet but without a hammer." But of course I am for the "steel helmet with hammers".
        1. +2
          6 October 2022 12: 39
          Agitators for unarmed armored personnel carriers simply dream of repeating plots similar to the one when the Ukrainian column in the steppes near Kherson comes under flank fire and the head armored personnel carrier turns into a torch. At the same time, not a single armored personnel carrier from the shelled column even tries to return fire, most likely because there is nothing.
          From the video, it is not even clear from what the Ukrainian column was fired from, maybe from the only ZU-23-2, judging by the lazy transfer of fire. Or maybe the BTR-82A shot the convoy in this way.
          1. 0
            6 October 2022 14: 06
            Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
            Agitators for unarmed armored personnel carriers simply dream of repeating plots similar to the one when the Ukrainian column in the steppes near Kherson comes under flank fire and the head armored personnel carrier turns into a torch.

            I don’t think that they are dreaming, it’s just that the darkness is not enough to understand how it can be. hi
            1. +1
              6 October 2022 16: 22
              Quite often, in reality, cooks, clerks and signalmen are involved in military operations. In critical situations, they row everyone into battle. What can we say about equipment, especially armored, for which the better the armament, the better. The same gunners for the PRP-5 did not hesitate to ask for a machine gun around the mast, and on the Drok project they even installed an additional tower. It will be necessary, even tractors will be thrown into battle and, it is desirable that the weapons on them be more impressive.
          2. +1
            6 October 2022 16: 24
            They say that a pair of BMD-4s competently scampered along that column. But it is not exactly.
            1. 0
              6 October 2022 16: 30
              I read it, but then where are the trails from the second shots? They are not visible. Although they could hit the lead car with a couple. It doesn't matter. It can only be seen that the column does not return fire for quite a long time.
              1. 0
                7 October 2022 07: 12
                This column has nothing to return fire with. And an attempt to land the ptochniks (if any) also does not guarantee anything or even worsens the situation.
            2. 0
              6 October 2022 19: 12
              You can make an even bolder assumption that it was a 12,7-mm machine gun of the KORD type, which used incendiary cartridges. Then there is an explanation for the long-term firing on the lead vehicle, the machine gunner was simply not sure of the defeat of the vehicle and hammered at it until it caught fire, and therefore did not transfer fire to the next vehicle.
              1. 0
                7 October 2022 07: 07
                One 30mm shell does not stop either. It is necessary to sand it in an important place - in this case, the driver or the engine. On a moving target, this is not easy.
        2. -1
          6 October 2022 16: 56
          They tried to convey everything to you in the article and the opponent that, due to mental disability and the return to the capitalists of the entire military-industrial complex, the functions of military and transport vehicles began to mix
          It is not advisable to increase the armor thickness of the armored personnel carrier, it is generally there insofar as a supporting body with sufficient rigidity is required, which contributes to the presence of minimal armor, an armored personnel carrier is an amphibious military transporter, which ideally should not appear on the front line, where the cargo transport function should take on an infantry fighting vehicle (a front-line cargo transporter with anti-personnel weapons of the BMD-4 type (low-ballistic cannon and autocannon / machine gun), to escort supply columns it would be reasonable to take the same conditional armored personnel carrier and adapt it to counter partisans, in damage to the carrying capacity, with a minimum number of such machines in the column
          Tigers, armored urals and other awkward creations of the market military-industrial complex are a miserable semblance of armored personnel carriers that smack of police specifics
          The armored personnel carrier should be extremely voluminous, all-terrain and relatively light (no more than 20 tons of equipment), infantry fighting vehicles of the same weight category of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles
          1. +1
            7 October 2022 08: 10
            Quote: Materialist
            The armored personnel carrier should be extremely voluminous, all-terrain and relatively light (no more than 20 tons of equipment), infantry fighting vehicles of the same weight category of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles

            Did you read the article or something?
            The photo above demonstrates the correct approach to the development of a new platform - a multi-ton vehicle with dynamic protection and gratings is armed with a manual turret with a 7,62 machine gun. The priorities of this machine are obvious.

            What 20 tons, what are you talking about? The author drowns for impotent machines with a machine gun, emphasizing that optics are now expensive!
            1. +4
              7 October 2022 12: 08
              Here the author refers to the M113, from which they tried to make an infantry fighting vehicle, citing it as an armored personnel carrier
              The author says that it is not advisable to put complex combat modules and autocannons on armored personnel carriers, which should not be used at all as a front-line combat vehicle, this is, at most, a counterguerrilla weapon (in the presence of mounted screens, but even there, more than 12.7 easel
              The issue of cost should be raised if we are talking about vehicles that have prospects for the modern army, and not the speculative concepts that I describe, but one way or another, the armored personnel carrier is relatively low-labor-intensive, easy to manufacture, mass-produced vehicle for transporting everything in a row along the rear and up to certain borders near the front
      2. +1
        8 October 2022 03: 42
        I highly recommend watching the film "The Pentagon Wars" how the Americans turned out "Bradley" from the M-113. I think it will make you happy. laughing hi
    3. +3
      7 October 2022 07: 30
      I will fit in for the author, although he is rude, which I do not approve of.
      It is strange to read this - after all, the BMP has an exit through the rear doors!

      Yes, through the rear doors, but the conclusion is not based on the method of disembarkation, but on the basis of the fact that the infantry sits on the armor, and not under it, in view of the low security of the BMP. The modern armored personnel carrier, the concept of which the author is talking about, implies the presence of a sufficient level of protection against large-caliber small arms, as well as mines.
      This is already beyond understanding, hello, author, all domestic armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles have TOWERS! And the fact that the author further deduces the uselessness of towers on the basis of the high cost of optics is already rinsing the mind of readers.

      Not uselessness, although okay, yes - the uselessness of complex expensive modules for armored personnel carriers instead of simpler ones, but at the same time in favor of increasing the level of security of machines.
      The photo is clearly an auxiliary vehicle, not an infantry fighting vehicle!

      Yes, exactly, this is an armored personnel carrier based on Bradley, most likely some kind of communication vehicle, but the architecture corresponds to the author's ideas about how a hypothetical armored personnel carrier should look like.
  4. +2
    6 October 2022 05: 52
    The very concept of armored personnel carriers is outdated. In the frontline zone, they are successfully replaced by MRAP. And it’s better to go into battle on an infantry fighting vehicle or under the cover of an infantry fighting vehicle. Moreover, the BMP can be wheeled.
    1. +1
      6 October 2022 08: 32
      MRAP has always been and will be an ersatz of a REAL armored personnel carrier
  5. +5
    6 October 2022 06: 11
    if such a miracle of engineering thought rolls out on them, as in the video below.
    The video shows not ZU-23-2, but ZPU-2.
  6. +12
    6 October 2022 06: 25
    1. Russia today simply does not have modern armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles

    1. Russia currently does not have generals capable of organizing modern military operations ..
    7 months of NVO showed that the organized artillery defense in Avdeevka, Marinka is insurmountable for stupid assault attacks.
    2. It is impossible to fight on armored personnel carriers, they are not intended for this.
    3. There are very few mobile infantry support vehicles capable of firing from closed positions from direct target designation of infantry units and infantry in combat formations.
    3. The use of armored personnel carriers as infantry support by shooting in the enemy's line of sight is unacceptable. An armored personnel carrier is the transport and protection of personnel on the march, and not in battle.
    1. +3
      6 October 2022 07: 16
      It is impossible to fight on armored personnel carriers, they are not intended for this.

      Sorry, but this statement of yours, as well as paragraph 3, completely contradicts the instructions for conducting combat by a motorized rifle squad. It clearly says:transportation of personnel and fire support during the battle". It's hard to imagine that the armored personnel carrier will throw out the infantry in an open field and leave somewhere :)
      1. 0
        6 October 2022 07: 20
        Sorry, but this statement of yours, as well as paragraph 3, completely contradicts the instructions for conducting combat by a motorized rifle squad. It clearly says: "transportation of personnel and fire support during the battle"

        See item 1
        1. +2
          6 October 2022 07: 28
          See item 1

          And on point 1 (about the generals) there is no particular disagreement :)
          1. +3
            6 October 2022 08: 00
            And on point 1 (about the generals) there is no particular disagreement :)


            It would be strange if they were. bully hi
      2. +3
        6 October 2022 08: 38
        Quote from invisible_man
        It is impossible to fight on armored personnel carriers, they are not intended for this.

        Sorry, but this statement of yours, as well as paragraph 3, completely contradicts the instructions for conducting combat by a motorized rifle squad. It clearly says:transportation of personnel and fire support during the battle". It's hard to imagine that the armored personnel carrier will throw out the infantry in an open field and leave somewhere :)

        I would venture to suggest that you were hinted that the generals should provide
        1) the relevance of the instructions
        2) the availability of those means capable of ensuring the implementation of these instructions.

        So, for example, armored personnel carriers that stupidly threw out infantry somewhere in modern conditions are not much different from infantry fighting vehicles, which just as stupidly threw out infantry somewhere and will support it in the old fashioned way with cardboard armor.


        The presence of reconnaissance quadrocopters REGULARLY must be organized ... at the tactical level. Where can I see the instructions for their use and the position of the UAV operator in the STAFF of motorized rifles of the Russian Federation?

        The same fire support must be organized. With the use of the same Droks at least. So that everyone would be united into one combat control system. The same network-centric war, which it is desirable not only to talk about but also to implement.
        1. 0
          6 October 2022 09: 27
          Drok is good, of course. But if the motorized riflemen have an infantry fighting vehicle that, after the landing, will be able to live on the battlefield and support the landing with fire, it will be even better. Living off maneuver and armor.
          And the armored personnel carrier must transport and land combat-ready troops. And that also requires armor.
          1. +1
            6 October 2022 12: 18
            Quote: garri-lin
            Drok is good, of course. But if the motorized riflemen have an infantry fighting vehicle that, after the landing, will be able to live on the battlefield and support the landing with fire, it will be even better. Living off maneuver and armor.
            And the armored personnel carrier must transport and land combat-ready troops. And that also requires armor.

            So no one says that BMPs are not needed. Needed.
            The question is different - current trends are that more internal volume is needed for landing. The requirements for weapons have increased, and the armament of the BMP + BK is also the place. Booking requirements have increased.
            As a result, making a "universal machine" is getting harder and harder. The cost of such machines is growing exponentially and it is becoming increasingly difficult to saturate the troops with them.

            As I wrote above, the cost of the combat module is greater than or equal to the cost of the chassis.

            Roughly speaking, there is a purely theoretical platoon, which consists of 6 squads of 8 people.

            And we are not talking about the fact that everyone would ride armored personnel carriers.
            And about the fact that there would be 3 infantry fighting vehicles and 3 armored personnel carriers.
            For example.

            If we take our BMP-3, it has 5 + 2 troops, and 2 are sitting in a very perverted place. Those. it is adequate to transport a link there only, half of the squad.

            There are 113 people in the old M11 landing force.
            Despite the fact that without a combat module, it is at least 2 times cheaper.
            2 infantry fighting vehicles + 4 armored personnel carriers in such configurations ... this is 5 * 2 + 4 * 11
            Those. for the same cost, we transport either 10 (14) people or 44.

            There are many other problems as well.
            For example, is it worth carrying people in the lead car?

            Organizationally, for example, contradictions are obvious to me. At the moment of the start of the battle, let's say if I am the commander of the 2nd BMP ... how can I prioritize the battle that is supposed to be? Am I supposed to be a firepower... according to the plan of the platoon commander, or should I land the troops in the first place?

            If I understand that my combat vehicle is primarily a weapon and I see the vehicle in front of me accelerate and go to the left, the first thing I think is to look for a position on the right.
            Assuming that ... my main task is to take the most advantageous position precisely in terms of firing and sectors. And not in terms of infantry safety.
            Moreover, my effectiveness as a weapon of fire may be in general contradicted by the presence of infantry nearby. Because abruptly leaving and abruptly driving back behind the shelter does not imply the thought of whether Ivan removed his leg or not ... I will run over him or not.

            Armored personnel carriers should also be clear about their priorities. 2 infantry fighting vehicles in front took up positions and covered with their fire. And the commanders of armored personnel carriers first of all look for shelter with their eyes.

            Otherwise, it will be the same as in the video with dill.
            It simply cannot be controlled.
            1. 0
              6 October 2022 13: 11
              There is a magnificent armored personnel carrier Shell. In fact, the Fighting Machine is disarmed and modified.
              What prevents on the basis of the BMP3 to do the same. Replace the combat module with something more compact. Yes, on the same tower from the BTR 82. This is another couple of revenge in a normal place minus one person from the crew. Released weight on defense.
              There will be a good armored personnel carrier to work in tandem with the BMP3
              In principle, an almost heavy armored personnel carrier will turn out. Unified by chassis.
              1. 0
                6 October 2022 15: 25
                Quote: garri-lin
                What prevents on the basis of the BMP3 to do the same. Replace the combat module with something more compact.
                BT-3F is called:
                1. 0
                  6 October 2022 19: 46
                  Generally acceptable. But I would like better armor
                  1. 0
                    6 October 2022 21: 19
                    Quote: garri-lin
                    ... I would like better armor

                    .... The spaced and homogeneous armor of the BMP-3 provides all-round protection against large-caliber small arms. The frontal projection withstands shelling from a 30-mm cannon from a range of 200 m. ....
                    1. +1
                      8 October 2022 19: 46
                      Sorry for the long answer. Was away from the internet.
                      BT3 F was created for the marines and, as a result, for the sake of seaworthiness, not buoyancy, namely seaworthiness, it is full of compromises.
                      I spoke about the new processing of the BMP 3 hull, where all the weight released after the removal of the BM would be directed to increasing protection. And not only in the frontal projection. But also on the sides.
                      1. 0
                        8 October 2022 23: 02
                        Quote: garri-lin
                        I spoke about the new processing of the BMP 3 hull, where all the weight released after the removal of the BM would be directed to increasing protection. And not only in the frontal projection. But also on the sides.
                        Take a look at the bottom photo.
                      2. +1
                        9 October 2022 00: 34
                        Ordinary thin screen. I don’t think that the board will withstand the BB from the KPVT. And the weight after dismantling the tower is released considerable. There is an opportunity to make a really well sewn up car.
        2. +4
          6 October 2022 10: 20
          The 82-mm "Drok", as a means of support for motorized riflemen, will be suitable if a radio fuse similar to the M82A734 multi-mode fuse is attached to the 1-mm mine. And so it is only suitable for landing, and as an escort vehicle for rear convoys. The power of a conventional high-explosive 82-mm mine is completely insufficient for fire support in modern combat.
          1. -1
            6 October 2022 12: 28
            Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
            The 82-mm "Drok", as a means of support for motorized riflemen, will be suitable if a radio fuse similar to the M82A734 multi-mode fuse is attached to the 1-mm mine. And so it is only suitable for landing, and as an escort vehicle for rear convoys. The power of a conventional high-explosive 82-mm mine is completely insufficient for fire support in modern combat.

            I agree. He cited as an example of interaction.
            Although in a number of situations it would be enough, for example, a video from the beginning of the operation, when our tank was removed by an ATGM from the roof of the airport. In the presence of a tactical UAV, it would be possible to remove this ATGM by Drok.
        3. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      6 October 2022 08: 27
      Yes that's right. Especially point 3 (which is about mobile support tools)
  7. +1
    6 October 2022 08: 02
    Unfortunately, even moving the engine forward on the btr82 and bmp3 is a problem as standard. Reserving vehicles with kits is also a problem ... ... armor kits for BMP2 / 3 have long been invented .... for BTR82 too. And we still see the "collective farm"
  8. 0
    6 October 2022 08: 04
    It is strange that the Ministry of Defense does not go the way of Israel, in the warehouses there are a sea of ​​\u62b\u55bT-55 so make a heavy armored personnel carrier out of them. It's a pity they disposed of the t-62. Otherwise, it would be even easier to upgrade the T-XNUMX armored personnel carrier and upgrade the T-XNUMX into an infantry support tank.
    1. -2
      6 October 2022 09: 02
      Israel does not have the ability to maintain the armament of captured tanks in a combat-ready state, which is why it remakes them.
      1. +2
        6 October 2022 09: 56
        And that Israel's bad transporters came from captured Soviet technology?
        1. -1
          6 October 2022 10: 23
          But this is not the problem, the problem is that you propose to destroy tanks in storage, weakening their weapons to zero.
          1. -1
            6 October 2022 12: 49
            I propose to use the t-55 on this, which is already completely obsolete and modernize the t-62
          2. 0
            6 October 2022 12: 50
            Of course, it’s better to put the T-10 on armored personnel carriers, but they were cut in 93. THE MARKET decided.
    2. +3
      6 October 2022 09: 22
      Quote: Conserv71
      It is strange that the Ministry of Defense does not go the way of Israel, in the warehouses there are a sea of ​​\u62b\u55bT-55 so make a heavy armored personnel carrier out of them. It's a pity they disposed of the t-62. Otherwise, it would be even easier to upgrade the T-XNUMX armored personnel carrier and upgrade the T-XNUMX into an infantry support tank.

      Above I attached a photo of our armored personnel carriers based on the T-55/72.
      Specialists from the Russian Federation, by order of Algeria, made on the basis of the T-62 BMPT. Apparently, based on the experience of working with the BMPT, the Terminator Algeria decided not to overpay.

      If there is no difference why pay more?
      1. +1
        6 October 2022 10: 00
        I have seen these cars. I was talking specifically about armored personnel carriers based on a tank for transporting soldiers instead of easily hit armored personnel carriers. So the t-62 can be easily upgraded. Install pin 1 , new sights and a normal infantry support tank .
  9. +1
    6 October 2022 08: 19
    For 50 cal. there is the M903 SLAP, a detachable sump sub-caliber bullet, which has the same armor penetration as the KPVT, i.e. about 30 mm. In theory, any promising armored personnel carrier, and even more so infantry fighting vehicles, should provide all-round protection against such ammunition.
  10. +1
    6 October 2022 08: 23
    It all looks like the reaction of the tsar father to the Fedorov automatic rifle: you won’t get enough cartridges for them! Sadly, a whole century has passed, and the degradation of the system of power has not changed!
    1. 0
      6 October 2022 10: 31
      Quote from Electric
      It all looks like the reaction of the tsar father to the Fedorov automatic rifle: you won’t get enough cartridges for them! Sadly, a whole century has passed, and the degradation of the system of power has not changed!

      But it won’t change. In order for something to change, the Russians need to get the tinsel, and then reach Berlin. And then sleep again for 50 years. In any war, someone fights in a new way, and someone in the old one.
  11. +4
    6 October 2022 08: 43
    These conclusions were in sight 10 years ago. And it was clear that all our tanks and new platforms, all for parades. Here is the military conflict in Syria and again by. Now it is Ukraine and again there are no conclusions.
    Ours again count on the heroism of the soldiers !!!!
    Everyone who makes decisions will calmly retire again
  12. +5
    6 October 2022 08: 45
    And I agree with the author. Of course, he expressed his thoughts fussily. Which led to some confusion. But the main message is correct. Modern mass equipment in the army is some kind of attempt to make a station wagon.
    Armored personnel carriers do not need 30 mm. unnecessary. And ceramic screens on the sides will be useful.
    Why make an ersatz infantry fighting vehicle out of an armored personnel carrier?
    I also agree about the armor on the turrets. The cost is minuscule and saves a lot of lives.
    Do not judge the author in haste. Get a grasp. He says the right things. Just a little fussy.
    1. -2
      6 October 2022 10: 46
      Well, yes, you both stand up for unarmed military equipment. But this is not a maritime theme, where everything is as one, commentators with "marshal ranks" are campaigning for unarmed ships. There is no support for motorized riflemen with such slogans.
      1. +3
        6 October 2022 11: 11
        Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
        Well, yes, you both stand up for unarmed military equipment.

        Nope, the author advocates for military equipment to do its direct job. And it didn’t replace other classes, while not having the technical ability to do it normally.
        Which is better: to safely deliver to the battlefield or to transfer to the battlefield a motorized rifle squad on a protected armored personnel carrier with a machine gun? Or do the same on a cardboard armored personnel carrier with a 30-mm cannon, on which, moreover, fire support tasks were attached to the MSO?

        Yes, the best answer is that you need to have a protected armored personnel carrier with a 30 mm (or 57 mm) gun that performs the tasks of both safe transportation and support. That's just the cost and weight of such a hybrid will be like MBT. And produced in the same quantities. And it will be called BMP. smile
        1. 0
          6 October 2022 11: 17
          A little lower I posted a photo of the PRP-5 installation, where, without particularly bothering, we found a place for a heavy machine gun. And I don’t understand the logic of unarmed military equipment at all, this is some kind of special style of thinking, a very high flight. And I find attempts to deprive the BTR-82A of a 30-mm cannon somewhat strange, to say the least.
          1. +1
            6 October 2022 12: 26
            Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
            A little lower I posted a photo of the PRP-5 installation, where, without particularly bothering, we found a place for a heavy machine gun.

            So more armored personnel carriers are not needed. His task is the safe delivery of infantry, protection is more important for him than weapons.
            Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
            And I find attempts to deprive the BTR-82A of a 30-mm cannon somewhat strange, to say the least.

            And don’t you find attempts to assign fire support tasks for the MSO to a car pierced by a rifle caliber? And attempts to transport infantry to and on the battlefield in such a vehicle?
            1. -2
              6 October 2022 12: 45
              I find it strange to attempt to disarm the BTR-82A, which in its present version is a very formidable machine. The 30-mm gun, as it were, does not burden the armored personnel carrier much, and if anything, then a lighter module of the "Spoke" type with an even more accurate gun is also ready.
              1. 0
                6 October 2022 12: 56
                But will the BTR 82 be able to realize the full potential of the 30 mm gun on the battlefield? Just survive until the moment when the ammunition runs out.
                1. 0
                  6 October 2022 13: 09
                  ?
                  300 shots for the 2A72 gun insufficient ammunition?
                  This is the BPU-1 for the BTR-80, which the author considers a model, has a 14,5-mm tape for 50 shots in the charge.
                  The BTR-82A has much more chances to survive until the ammunition is exhausted than the BTR-80 with a machine gun, without a drive and with a short belt.
                  1. 0
                    6 October 2022 13: 18
                    If the armored personnel carrier maneuvers around the battlefield, shooting the entire ammo at targets for which a smaller caliber will be ineffective, then I'm not sure that it will live to the end of the tape.
                    1. 0
                      6 October 2022 13: 33
                      No, it’s better in Ukrainian (in Amerian, on Amer’s armored personnel carriers) to disappear with the whole column under the flank fire of a single ZU-23-2 anti-aircraft gun.
                      1. 0
                        6 October 2022 19: 42
                        Yeah, fuck it. Tolyel get in.
      2. +3
        6 October 2022 12: 53
        Armored personnel carriers are not military equipment, but transport. For self-defense, something smaller and lighter than 30 mm is enough for him. But more armor is needed.
        1. 0
          6 October 2022 13: 00
          I saw a video where a Ukrainian convoy from an armored personnel carrier was fired at by flanking fire in the steppes near Kherson. None of the armored personnel carriers even returned fire, apparently they followed your concept that someone else should protect them, and to confidently follow the theory, their weapons were weak.
          In a modern war, where the front line becomes conditional, depriving an armored personnel carrier of weapons is something funny. Is that only if we assume the absence of resistance from the enemy.
          1. +1
            6 October 2022 13: 14
            I would like to see what armored personnel carriers armed with 30 mm cannons could do in that situation.
            1. 0
              6 October 2022 13: 25
              They would turn the towers to the left and, perhaps, even return fire on the move. Flank fire was conducted with tracers and the firing position was observable.
              Unfortunately, the format of the forum does not allow to give you and your views an accurate and capacious description, and therefore I propose to end the useless discussion.
              1. 0
                6 October 2022 19: 41
                The discussion is not useless. I know that case. And I think that the attacking side did not realize the potential of the situation.
  13. +1
    6 October 2022 08: 54
    I am not a military engineer, but just an engineer, but IMHO is written correctly.
  14. +3
    6 October 2022 09: 04
    Quote: Sergey028
    Our military-industrial complex has one concept so far - to master budget money

    This is true! But the truth is also that the relevant specialized research institutes of the Ministry of Defense are developing tactical and technical requirements that are little substantiated. Recently I had to study and write comments on such TTT. It seems that the developers do not quite understand the current level of technological development and the state of Russian industry. Unfortunately, this pattern is seen everywhere. As they say, thanks to our reformers, pre-reformed.
  15. +1
    6 October 2022 09: 08
    If we are talking about a future network-centric war, then an armored personnel carrier will be needed there only to move infantry and evacuate. A swarm of drones reconnoiters the front line, it also cleans it itself and in combination with artillery. After suppressing the enemy’s firing points, infantry leaves. following ahead.
  16. +1
    6 October 2022 09: 26
    And what is the result? During the Chechen campaigns, the 30-mm cannon was only on the BMP. The armored personnel carriers were armed with the KPVT, ... And if in Chechnya, in order to “thirty-thirty”, it was necessary to call the BMP (more armored than the armored personnel carrier), now you can get by with the armored personnel carrier. This fact allows us to state that the situation has not just repeated itself (as the title of the article suggests) - it has become even worse! Against the backdrop of minimal technical progress, conceptual degradation occurred.

    I would like to ask if the author knows what the 14,5-mm BPU-1 turret machine gun mount, which is armed with the BTR-60/70/80, is? This wretched design was of little use from the very moment of design and installation on equipment. This is the lack of an electric drive and the small size of the machine-gun belt for 50 shots, and to top it off, even the absence of a hatch on the turret.
    And in light of this, when installing a module with a 30-mm cannon, can we talk about conceptual degradation?

    For reasons already mentioned above, the soldiers were not located inside the vehicles, but “on the armor”.

    That's just the reasons for traveling "on the armor" are disclosed one-sidedly. The main, and not mentioned, reason is the improved visibility, as well as the unsuccessful design of the roof hatches. If it were possible to open the hatches and hide behind their covers, at least like on the BMP-3, they would not ride horseback.
  17. 0
    6 October 2022 09: 33
    Very emotional, patriotic, but amateurish article.
    1. The author does not know the principles of creating military equipment. The military-industrial complex develops and produces only what the army orders for it. No self-activity in this matter is possible. It is not he who determines the appearance of the raging BT.
    2. The author writes a lot about the need for protective shields for machine gun turrets, but here he contradicts himself. First, putting forward the thesis about the weak armor of the armored personnel carrier / infantry fighting vehicle, he immediately proposes to install protective shields, for some reason keeping silent about their expected thickness. But following his logic, the shields should protect the machine gunner from bullets and shell fragments. And how thick should these shields be? How is the tank armor? Otherwise, they create only the illusion of protection, increase the weight of the BT and impair visibility.
    3. The author writes "keep on board 12,7 mm, and on the forehead - 30 mm." The question immediately arises - at what distance, because otherwise these words are about nothing.
    4. Criticizing the armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles currently in service with the army, the author forgets why they were created. No one ever intended to use them for fighting in the mountains and the city. There, the enemy will relatively easily burn any armored vehicles.
    5. "if it were high-tech weapons" - the military doesn't give a damn about high-tech weapons or not, they are interested in their effectiveness. The industry is vitally interested in high-tech products, because this will ensure its rapid development and ease of production.
    6. The author casually mentioned ambulance armored vehicles, I do not argue that this is a very important technique, but he kept silent about ammunition transporters, reconnaissance vehicles, command vehicles, self-propelled guns and numerous other representatives of lightly armored vehicles.
    1. -2
      6 October 2022 10: 44
      It is not necessary to make shields around the turret. The role of shields can be performed by trays with machine-gun belts. The fact is that the designer cannot offer something in between a machine gun on the "Shell" and an artillery reconnaissance vehicle PRP-5.
  18. +2
    6 October 2022 09: 43
    Indeed, there are such "sins" in the army associated with armored vehicles. The situation was somehow diluted by TYPHOON and MCIs of the National Guard. I don’t know why the latter would not be introduced into the troops to replace armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles or in addition to them. Maybe sometime later .. we will have armored personnel carriers with 30mm + modules and hidden hulls in the form of static firing points like the T-55/62 use))
    1. 0
      7 October 2022 23: 13
      Typhoons were developed 10 years ago under Serdyukov, and in 10 years Shoigu bought as many as 300 pieces.
      He did not care about people, they took what was cheaper
  19. -1
    6 October 2022 10: 10
    ...
    5. The use of equipment without protective shields on the turrets should be excluded. This item has the greatest impact on combat effectiveness and reduction of losses in terms of the result-cost ratio.

    6. In the production of modern armored personnel carriers, at least for the first time, complex combat modules should be abandoned, focusing on the amount of equipment produced, since this will have a more significant effect on the survival of our soldiers. At least in the first "transitional" period.


    The survivability of armored personnel carriers is most affected by the earlier detection of threats and the timely opening of fire. On the contrary, the complication and automation of combat modules is required.
    It is not clear what is the reason for the desire to abandon turret machine-gun or cannon installations, if it is not difficult for modern industry to install an electric drive and ensure circular rotation. Only the tower should not be closed, but in the form of shields or trays for ammunition, and the hatch can be located lower at roof level. It should be something similar to the machine gun module on the BTR-MDM "Rakushka", but with a machine gun in the center, more spacious, with ammunition trays around and 360-degree rotation.
    "Shell"
  20. +2
    6 October 2022 10: 16
    on the armor protection of infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, the author’s incorrect conclusions.
    There is a fundamental work published by the Ministry of Defense, which analyzes the losses of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles during the hostilities in the 1990-2000s. He is a "chipboard", only those who are currently serving have access to it.
    So, the analysis shows that when an infantry fighting vehicle is destroyed, the crew dies in 45% of cases, when an armored personnel carrier is destroyed, the crew dies in 15% of cases. That is, the survival rate on an armored personnel carrier is 3 times higher than on an infantry fighting vehicle. Although the armor of an infantry fighting vehicle is 2 times thicker. These are the paradoxes life presents.
    From this point of view, the actions of the Ministry of Defense are logical: Put a 30 mm cannon on the armored personnel carrier, and thereby increase the firepower to the level of the infantry fighting vehicle, and the survival rate is already higher. So the BTR-82 probably appeared.
    The Ministry of Defense operates in real circumstances, choosing solutions from the proposed ones.
    Yes, a new car is needed, but the industry cannot provide it yet. All others are not able to radically change the situation.
    1. +2
      6 October 2022 10: 33
      Most likely, the best survivability in an armored personnel carrier is associated with a low probability of ammunition detonation, which has become a real "Achilles' heel" for the BMP-1, and for the BMP-3 too. Therefore, they are trying to create an Epoch module for infantry fighting vehicles with a fully removed ammunition load.
  21. +1
    6 October 2022 10: 40
    Whenever someone talks about how a troop transport shouldn't be overly protected, I always ask why 10 people in a troop transport should be less protected than 3 in a tank.
    1. -1
      6 October 2022 10: 55
      Because a tank is a battlefield vehicle, and an armored personnel carrier / infantry fighting vehicle is a protected landing transport. An infantryman on the battlefield must be out of equipment.
    2. -2
      6 October 2022 11: 27
      Also because a swollen tank capable of accommodating 10 people will be of such weight that neither car trailers nor the railway can cope with its transportation.
      1. +1
        6 October 2022 11: 37
        If you forget about the need for seaworthiness or air launch, if you use a remotely controlled tower, the possibilities of booking landing transport increase. However, there is a difference in protection between a 40-ton and a 20-ton amphibious transport, without the need to go up to 70 tons.
        1. -1
          6 October 2022 11: 38
          Few will object to the heavy T-15 infantry fighting vehicle, the sample of which is already ready, but no one is going to refuse light armored vehicles either.
          Childish logic, give me the same as a tank and nothing else, few people are interested.
          1. +1
            6 October 2022 19: 11
            I can agree with you. You need the right mix of light and heavy machines, as well as wheeled and tracked machines. But we must always see what the world has to offer and understand what is interesting in the arms industry of other countries. Let me give you an example: I often read on this site that the Russian army would not need vehicles like MRAP, it doesn’t seem to me that it went that way. Also because building a protected car on a truck chassis is faster than building a monocoque car from scratch. I could tell you about Caesar type car guns. The same mantra """"Wheels don't work in Russian mud."" "If that were the case, the Russian army would not even use trucks for transportation. Those who are keen on weapons do not look where they are made, but how they work. hi
            1. +2
              6 October 2022 19: 20
              There was an urgent need for armored vehicles such as MRAP during the war in Afghanistan 1979-1989. But then, already having a diesel engine of 260 hp, they did not consider it necessary to take care. Although the losses of automotive equipment were simply huge, about 11 thousand units.
  22. 0
    6 October 2022 11: 07
    The war, as always, highlighted a huge number of shortcomings. Only we still do not see any steps to eliminate them.
    Yes, most likely we won’t see it because the authorities don’t give a shit about our opinion. Why would he even react to something like that? We have no influence on the government
  23. 0
    6 October 2022 11: 55
    Whatever you touch on the armament of the army, there is a problem all around. Everything is either based on the obsolete Soviet heritage, or piece "unparalleled" copies for salons, exhibitions and parades.
    And the Ministry of Defense and the military-industrial complex only report on the past tests of the next "unparalleled" sample and the completed state defense order ...
    And what does it include? Shamanized Soviet T-72s, armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles, on which the infantry has been riding for 40 years?
    And judging by the actions of the Moscow Region, it will be another 40 years to ride ...
    Enough for exercises and parades. And it came to a real war, it turns out, there is nothing sensible ...
    1. +1
      7 October 2022 23: 14
      Something new in the army with its requirements, so that they would make a Mercedes at the price of Grants, it’s hard to promote
      ----------------------------------------------
      The third part of the conclusions from our reader-artilleryman, who returned from the first rally of operators of combat UAVs "Dronnitsa".

      So, drones are sorely lacking. In modern realities, the bureaucracy lengthens the development time for military products. Let's suppose you did it and spent a year (or two) on paperwork, and still began to develop a certain product.

      Well, let's take a look at the restrictive lists:
      - let's all domestic;
      - temperature range from minus 50 to 50 degrees for all components, including optics and batteries;
      - reliability - thirtyfold. Like the fire detection and extinguishing system of the cruiser "Moskva";
      - standardization and unification of a light UAV should be at the level of 90% with the components of the T-64 tank;
      - and be sure to catalog everything in the 46 Central Research Institute system, which, of course, is ten times "more convenient" than any online store cobbled together by a ninth-grader in WordPress in a computer science lesson.

      Then try:
      - make prototypes;
      - test under the wise guidance of secret institutions;
      - pass state tests;
      - prepare production and somehow establish a series;
      - You will establish a series under the conditions of separate accounting for the State Defense Order, when you cannot immediately buy everything available on the market at the best price: everything is agreed with the military representative. It's good if you can make a pre-purchase.

      Description of the process - only in general terms and in rough strokes.

      By the way, the "military expert" Lyokha-antidrone no longer quacks that "drones are unnecessary": this unprofessional civilian rumbler has been intercepted by the enemy's electronic warfare and is already landing on the territory controlled by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

      https://t.me/rusfleet/5307
      1. 0
        12 October 2022 14: 05
        CBO highlighted the problems that have been accumulating for years ...
  24. 0
    6 October 2022 12: 00
    The Russian Federation needs an infantry vehicle that could equip the army not only in peacetime, but also in the event of a large-scale war, therefore an infantry vehicle is needed for a contract army and for a mobilized army.
    For a contract army, this is a heavy infantry vehicle with dynamic and active protection capable of repelling any means of destruction from the most threatened directions, convenient for placing troops inside the vehicle, with a tracked chassis, with all-round visibility. The armament for this machine must be universal, that is, capable of hitting any enemy, under any weather conditions, at any time of the day, including a camouflaged one. There should be means of defeating enemy infantry and tanks, in the air the main enemy of the vehicle is drones, so it is necessary to install appropriate means of combat, maybe 23, 30 or 57 mm guns, with the necessary aiming devices, and means of detecting drones.
    For a mass army, a cheaper light vehicle is needed, protected only from the most common means of destruction, that is, from small arms bullets, and therefore capable of swimming. A light infantry vehicle, like a heavy one, should be tracked, with a powerful engine, convenient for placing troops inside the vehicle and landing, with all-round visibility, equipped with thermal imagers and night vision devices. Armament: a 7,62 mm machine gun placed in the turret is enough, it should be possible to install more advanced weapon modules and turrets.
  25. +3
    6 October 2022 12: 02
    The whole point is that large-scale rearmament requires a lot of money. And we also need companies that can be loaded with these orders so that they complete them within a reasonable time. And also these enterprises need to be modernized to some extent in order to produce some innovative solutions, without which they may not be able to produce an adequate product according to modern standards. That is, it means more money, more time, and even greater quality of planning.

    In contrast to this, we will be tempted to modernize the existing (for the umpteenth time) or the concept of "collecting here and now" - some new projects, to a small extent mixed with something new, and to a large extent with some existing solutions. What is possible to produce on existing lines.

    Of course, I am not an expert in the military industry, but the general laws of military-economic considerations that prevail over all this "how it would be good" are clear to me.
    Why do tricks like this work well in the US? Because for a number of reasons -
    1) The life of a soldier in the USA costs many times more than ours (the sum of all compensation from the state in case of death)
    2) The US industrial base is larger and more diverse than ours - the enterprises themselves have constant contact with the widest range of products, which forces them to both have competencies and relatively new equipment.
    3) The US defense budget and R&D budgets are several times higher than ours.
    4) Individual areas that are not adequately represented in the United States itself (in terms of price or quality or scale of production) the United States can profitably place with allies.
    5) The US judicial system, abstracting from its minuses, gives considerable chances that lawyers will then ride along the entire chain of those responsible for worthless equipment - and they will find the guilty there and collect nectar from them to the fullest. Similar approaches are possible in our country to a much lesser extent, not to mention the fact that the effectiveness of the legal bureaucracy is inferior, and the defendants themselves can "set sail" . In general, we have a truly glorious tradition not to look deeply for the guilty - to say that this impedes progress is to greatly underestimate.

    It is never a sin to learn from the enemy, we must remember this.
    And yes, above all these fabrications there will always be point "1". It is not some abstract "morality" or "concern" that motivates the state to improve the security of soldiers - but such a parameter as the "price of life."
  26. 0
    6 October 2022 12: 33
    Finally, they began to raise the topic of protection. It was immediately clear that this was all bullshit. They fought for every kilogram for the sake of buoyancy and landing as a result of there is no protection, no one swims, no one jumps. Airborne! Airborne! where is the airborne? "Winged Infantry" Where is the landing on the seashore? Where is the sky in the domes? Even when playing tanks on light vehicles, they kill in a second. It's just a crime to rivet a holey weapon for years.
  27. +4
    6 October 2022 12: 58
    A million times and decades this topic has been discussed. since the Afghan war.

    So the correct question - "when the troops will have a normal mass armored personnel carrier / infantry fighting vehicle" has the correct answer "never".

    The industry likes to upgrade the BTR80 and BMP1/2.
    Army games are won.
    What else do you need?
  28. +4
    6 October 2022 13: 06
    I think the role of the classic armored personnel carrier has long been assumed by the MRAP, precisely as a transport. And a modern armored personnel carrier is more like an infantry fighting vehicle on wheels, respectively, their weapon modules should be the same, the difference is only in the chassis.
  29. PXL
    -3
    6 October 2022 14: 56
    And who is the author of this article? What will it be? If he is a tank building engineer, why didn't he send his proposals to the specialized research institute of the RF Ministry of Defense in Kubinka?
  30. -1
    6 October 2022 15: 45
    The article is interesting, thanks to the author. But the Russian Federation has a series of armored personnel carriers, called the Typhoon, the Ural and Kamaz platforms, they hold 14,2, I saw them in the chronicle in Ukraine.
  31. +4
    6 October 2022 17: 28
    I am by no means a professional in this matter. But it is also obvious to me that military transport is different depending on how far from the front line it is intended to work (I know a modern war without a continuous front line, nevertheless, based on the remoteness of the transported people, property from the line of contact with the main enemy forces.
    Obviously, heavy infantry fighting vehicles, such as the T-15, are needed for transportation, evacuation from the front line and under cover of MBT fire.
    There is a class and this is 8/9 of the total volume, just transport to carry various things in the rear, for example sugar, ammunition from a large warehouse to a warehouse at the regiment level. Here, probably, only protection against AK-74 bullets from a distance of 5 meters and only the cabin is important.
    There is something that should bring the infantry to the places of its concentration and transfer to heavy armored personnel carriers. These can be machines of the type, as coldwind cited as an example: the Z-STS armored car (“Protected Special Vehicle”) - the developer and manufacturer of the Remdizel plant
    Yes, and we need vehicles like the Tiger, the Bear - specialized armored vehicles, patrol-police-raid - command and staff vehicles. All other tasks of this BMP are different.

    The BTR-80/82 is a wonderful technique, just like with any technique, it needs to be skillfully used and not used for what it is not intended for. Yes, you can take it to storm the building. It's better than going with only a machine gun and a couple of RPOs. But this is either a police operation, a special forces operation, or this is not a combined arms battle with a serious enemy.
    Of course, as they wrote on VO, an extremely important reason for being on the armor is situational awareness - the ability to see where you are, where the neighbors are, where they are shooting from, and in general the overall picture.
    Perhaps by equipping each squad with a quadrocopter, it will be possible to provide video broadcast from the battlefield to everyone on a tablet in an armored personnel carrier / infantry fighting vehicle by 360%. The question is how reliable are all these communication channels, UAVs, is there enough bandwidth for each squad to play such a movie, and what to do when it breaks down completely, and the fighters are used to situational awareness ..
    At the expense of a 30 mm gun and replacing it with 12,7 and even more so 7,62 is not an option, because gaining in weight will not make it possible to significantly increase the armor of even one forehead. And the chance to suppress anything from a sniper to a shahid mobile with 30mm is much higher than with 7,62 ...
    And the economic issue. He is important.
    The T-15 costs monstrous funds - I did not find open data, but based on the fact that the T-14 is estimated at $ 7 million = 420 million rubles, it differs from the T-15 base only in the AFAR radar and tower. Let's imagine a super option when the T-15 is already half the price = 210 million rubles per piece = 0,21 yard rubles / piece.
    Our aircraft need at least 3000 units. Based on this calculation, the grouping of contract soldiers and those who are fighting and not at headquarters in the Rembat, etc., is about 3000000. One BMP transports = 9 people. 3000 pieces are capable of simultaneously delivering 27000 people to the battlefield. for 10 walkers back and forth approximately transfers the entire cash grouping. If we assume that the delivery shoulder is within 50 km, then based on 50 km / h over rough terrain, then in 10 hours everyone can be transported 50 km + take away the wounded. 3000 pcs*0,21 yard rub=630 yard rub. Releasing 300 pcs / year (it’s stressful, but I think it’s possible to organize it with a number) will require 63 yards of money per year without investing in expansion / modernization of capacities, which at the current rate is about 1 yard of US dollars. On the other hand, "partners" stole more than 300 from us and nothing .... And again, someone will not buy another yacht and that's it, but this is really the life of the guys. And of course tactics, tactics and training of commanders, sergeants and privates ... Communications, intelligence ...
  32. +2
    6 October 2022 19: 43
    The tachanka must be discovered and destroyed earlier, that's all ... And against the RPG-7, the BPM has not yet been invented, except Israel.
  33. -1
    6 October 2022 20: 25
    Are there any estimates of the resistance of the armor of the BTR-80 to fragments of OFS 155, min 120 mm - from what distance or at what speed does it hold a blow? Options for using javelins and escalibers on armored personnel carriers are not considered for obvious reasons. Conventionally, what I want to understand: Knowing the KVO of modern standard NATO OFS, mines - uncontrollable and not high-precision, understand the probability of knocking out when firing at BTR-80 areas on the move. Recently I made a primitive estimate of the volume of D-30 shots in order to hit the size of a tank standing still at a distance of 15 km - the limit .. More than 1800 shells came out with a probability of 0,9. Practically never. Well, classic art is not for shooting at sparrows = single targets, if these are not large squares of warehouses, airfields, trenches :) ..
  34. +1
    6 October 2022 21: 01
    everything is correct, respect to the author
    it's a pity that the tops do not understand the obvious ...
    However, they have other guidelines ... :)
  35. 0
    6 October 2022 21: 15
    You know. Seeing the comments of many "analysts" in the comments under this article, as well as other articles that considered the problems of domestic armored vehicles. I realized that a large percentage of the nonsense from such people comes from the problem of ... that when they talk about armored personnel carriers, they hear BMPs in their heads. You explain to them for a long time that the main parameters of the armored personnel carrier are security, capacity and the ability to quickly and safely leave. And they answered, "And how will the vehicle support the infantry with fire?" or "And if in battle they meet a tank?". And you can’t explain to such people that “Hello! We are talking about an ARMORED TRANSPORTER, not about a tank or infantry fighting vehicles, which are the front line equipment. It is tanks and infantry fighting vehicles that should solve these problems. Armored personnel carriers should deliver soldiers and provisions in integrity and safety from part of the location to the line of contact and back." At the same time, the BMP in its original version is no longer relevant. It is simply impossible to achieve the necessary security.

    Let me not fully agree with the author's idea that BMPs should be used as an infantry fire support vehicle, which also transports resources, or, if necessary, soldiers. But at least I would test such a model on tests at the test site. At a minimum, the constant requirement to accommodate a landing force of 6-8 people while maintaining buoyancy greatly weakens the booking limit, which is critical for a front-line vehicle.

    Even so. I do not quite agree with the idea of ​​the author. But I do not consider his idea unworthy of not being considered. on the contrary, I would be curious to consider and study such a model. A model in which an infantry fighting vehicle is a heavily armored vehicle with universal rapid-fire weapons (30, 40 or 57 mm guns) that have more armor than armored personnel carriers (capable of withstanding shells of 20 and 30 mm guns in the sides. And even more powerful shells when hit in forehead). At the same time, the hull is able to withstand the detonation of the remote sensing for additional protection against simple and massive grenade launchers. At the same time, if necessary, it is capable of taking several soldiers under its armor. a kind of light infantry tank. Due to the fact that there is always a chance to meet a tank at the forefront, such an infantry fighting vehicle can still (and even need to) be equipped with a pair of ATGM missiles. So we get a car that would be in a niche between tanks and modern heavy infantry fighting vehicles.
    It would be smaller and lighter than a tank, but at the same time, due to the lack of the need to always accommodate a detachment of fighters, all the mass was spent on defense, which is why, while maintaining adequate dimensions (not like some heavy infantry fighting vehicles that are now), it would be more secure than modern infantry fighting vehicles.
    1. 0
      9 October 2022 21: 36
      Quote: Mustachioed Kok
      You know. Seeing the comments of many "analysts" in the comments under this article, as well as other articles that considered the problems of domestic armored vehicles. I realized that a large percentage of nonsense from such people comes from the problem of ... that when they talk about armored personnel carriers, they hear BMPs in their heads. You explain to them for a long time that the main parameters of the armored personnel carrier are security, capacity and the ability to quickly and safely leave. And they answered, "And how will the vehicle support the infantry with fire?" or "And if in battle they meet a tank?". And you can’t explain to such people that “Hello! We are talking about an armored transporter

      Yes, that's exactly it.
  36. 0
    6 October 2022 21: 34

    Something like that.
    Note that this is NOT what I suggested.
  37. 0
    6 October 2022 22: 10
    Question - Who sits and orders equipment in the Moscow Region? The answer is those who do not fight. There are definitely no former mechanics there.
    1. 0
      7 October 2022 23: 16
      They just ordered good equipment under civilian Serdyukov, starting with Iveco, which made the Russian auto industry move
  38. 0
    7 October 2022 05: 50
    I'm afraid that all these are fragments of the work that the Anglo-Saxons have been doing for a long time against Russia, as they did in their time against the Russian Empire and the USSR .. Their desire to seize the defense industry, and lack of funds, and bankruptcy attempts, and then just closing them.
  39. +1
    7 October 2022 06: 58
    On the one hand, everything is presented intelligibly and clearly. Indeed, much needs to be fixed urgently. And here a natural question arises: why did this become possible at all? Who is constantly advising representatives of the Russian Defense Ministry to simplify tasks in the design and creation of military equipment? Did you think of it yourself or did someone tell you? How low are defense enterprises systematically in a fever, which suddenly turn out to be either ownerless or trying to bankrupt them.
  40. 0
    7 October 2022 08: 36
    The article lacks two of the most important conclusions:
    7. Who should be shot for conclusions 1-4
    8. Who needs to be shot in order to implement conclusions 5 and 6 as quickly as possible.
    Preferably by last name, with mentions of titles and regalia with a mandatory obituary at the end.
  41. 0
    7 October 2022 10: 13
    Quote from cold wind
    This ensures the safety of the vehicle and troops

    Where are you all climbing from? The charter provides for the dismounting of the landing party to deploy in a chain, and not so that it would hide behind the body of the car. It is the dismounted landing party that protects its car from the enemy’s TCP.
  42. -2
    7 October 2022 10: 20
    Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
    Physics interferes. This is the center of the car body. What is stiffness and stiffener do you know? Can you imagine what the “cuts” in the sides lead to?

    And what is rigidity in physical terms? "Saw cuts in the sides" - well, a clown.
    1. +1
      9 October 2022 21: 35
      Quote: Vladimir Michailovich

      And what is rigidity in physical terms?

      Did you go to school at all?
      Rigidity Mechanical rigidity (also stiffness) is the ability of a solid body, structure or its elements to resist deformation (change in shape and / or dimensions) from an applied force along a selected direction in a given coordinate system.
  43. 0
    7 October 2022 19: 31
    The concept of a "normal" armored personnel carrier can be illustrated with a single photo below.
    mmm what? M113 is a normal armored personnel carrier? From what soup is this?
    The photo above demonstrates the correct approach to the development of a new platform - a multi-ton vehicle with dynamic protection and gratings is armed with a manual turret with a 7,62 machine gun. The priorities of this machine are obvious.
    And apparently our armored personnel carriers do not even reach a ton. Where did you see the DZ here, I don’t understand.
  44. 0
    7 October 2022 19: 39
    Quote: Decimalegio
    The same mantra "" "" Wheels in Russian mud do not work "" ". If this were the case, then the Russian army would not use trucks even for transportation

    Do not confuse warm with soft. Trucks drive mainly on roads, and military equipment where necessary. But where it is necessary, the wheels are not very hefty.
  45. 0
    7 October 2022 21: 16
    This is how many traitors and thieves need to be shot among officials and generals? And ammo enough? Or maybe use hemp rope? It's reusable! They no longer fear Russia, because apart from blah blah blah and hatred, NATO members do not hear anything, and the so-called "red lines" have long disappeared! Is the Kremlin really waiting for a nuclear strike on Russian territory to wake up? This is the military-political impotence of the country's leadership, and your supporter writes this! Imagine who the Russian leadership is considered to be in NATO!
  46. -2
    7 October 2022 21: 54
    Too lazy to read to the end. I have not read Pasternak, but I condemn him.
    As for the tracked infantry fighting vehicle - I don’t know, this is a matter of money only (including for pontoon parks). The hedgehog understands that such an infantry fighting vehicle will be exclusive exclusively to infantry assigned to tank units.
    As for wheeled vehicles, the BTR-152, which crawled more or less tolerably through the mud, has an axle load of less than 3,5 tons. For the BTR-70, it is no more than 4 tons. And no engine power compensates for this. It will not be an exaggeration if I say that 5 tons per axle is the absolute limit. As well as the number of axles is not more than 4. With a weight slightly less than 20 tons, the BMP-3 is protected from the sides from the M2 12,7 at real combat distances.
    By the way, the engine is in front, a heavy muzzle is also not good for cross-country ability. Remember Zaporozhets.
  47. 0
    8 October 2022 19: 37
    Israel Defense Forces conscript...
  48. 0
    9 October 2022 07: 09
    But we have braces and a nickel-plated vertical of power. And yes, the Siberian Cranes know the way: the leader showed them.
  49. +3
    9 October 2022 17: 51
    Here we are in the Reich's coming out and saw how liquid the "compact contract army" was done.
    This war unequivocally showed that a contract army is only suitable for fighting against a deliberately technically backward enemy or against an enemy whose generals can be trivially bribed (as was the case in Iraq).
    In addition, the author trivially does not understand the difference between a full-fledged war and anti-patriotic actions.
    For example, what is the danger to personnel in counterguerrilla operations? That's right - an ambush. Therefore, the personnel ride on armored personnel carriers / infantry fighting vehicles. So that a cumulative grenade hitting the side does not become fatal for separation.
    But in battles with the Wehrmacht's coming out, such a ride very quickly lost popularity. Because such a trifle, well, just nonsense - the rebels / partisans / militants have never had such a small amount as one or two divisions of 152-mm Hyacinth cannons firing projectiles with a radio fuse. And it turned out that most of the personnel of the motorized rifle company, riding on armor, when this company was covered with fire from one or two Hyacinth divisions, turned into mincemeat. Because the side armor and roof armor of the armored personnel carrier, as it turned out, either cannot be penetrated by fragments of shells when they break at a distance of more than 2-3 meters, or fragments pierce the armor, but then even the jacket material can stop them. But body armor does not provide such protection even at a gap distance of 10-12 meters. Rapid fire is usually 4 rounds. The first shells are fired in one gulp, the rest - when the guns are ready. This takes about a minute. The radio fuse ensures that the projectile is detonated at the most favorable height, which provides the greatest damaging effect of the fragments. In total, this turns out to be 72 shells, the smallest. And eyewitnesses reported that already the first salvo explosions of shells swept away most of the personnel with armor fragments and a blast wave. The others jumped off, only to be hit by air gaps. At the same time, NOT A SINGLE person who remained under the cover of armor was not injured.
    Therefore, I will not be surprised when, following the results of the war with the Ukrov-Wehrmacht, they say that everything that was taught, starting from the war in Afghanistan or Chechnya, does not give a damn and forget. Running around the mountains after militants is somehow strikingly different from fighting against a regular army, with a clearly defined front line, when the enemy has hundreds of artillery pieces and hundreds of MLRS. And even the advance to the front line takes place under the fire influence of the enemy. Nothing to do with running around the mountains for dushmans in Afghanistan or militants in the Caucasus.
    I remember after a couple of years of the war in Afghanistan, a "brilliant" idea was suddenly born that the entire Soviet Army should be redone. Self-propelled guns, tanks, heavy artillery are not needed, but only weapons that can be carried by hand are needed. Moreover, ALL divisions were going to be converted. And standing in Transbaikalia against the fortified areas of the PLA, and standing on the plains of Hungary, Germany and Poland. Like, what is it, in Afghanistan, self-propelled guns, tanks and heavy towed guns did not show themselves very well, so they are not needed in Germany either. We will fight with light divisions that move in cars against NATO "heavy" divisions.
    It's good that smart people were then found who gave the head to the rabid reformers.
    And now we are reaping the fruits of blind admiration for the experience learned from counterguerrilla operations.
    1. +1
      13 October 2022 14: 41
      Something similar happened in the 19th century, when we overestimated the experience of military operations in the Caucasus and Central Asia, the Crimean company, hence the "squad mania", the refusal, at some stage, from the corps system, etc. ... This hit us hard during Russian-Japanese, and then the First World ...
  50. -2
    9 October 2022 22: 32
    Quote: Alexander Vorontsov

    Did you go to school at all?

    Excellent, the first barrier is taken, and then what?
  51. +1
    10 October 2022 00: 38
    Most likely the concept needs to be expanded.
    1 We need equipment to deliver military personnel to the battlefield and pick them up from there. This equipment must have appropriate dimensions and armor. Transport module with small weapons. A rapid-fire machine gun with a caliber of 12,7 mm will be enough. Let me explain why this caliber is. When you need to hit that greenery or that little house, 7,62 mm caliber is not always enough. In the heat of battle, no one will conduct aimed fire. We need to get people out of the fire as quickly as possible. The 12,7 mm caliber is a compromise between a completely unjustified large caliber and the not always sufficient lethality of the 7,62 caliber.
    2 At the same time, separate equipment is needed for fire support of military personnel on the battlefield from the ground. The use of twin 30 mm caliber installations and automatic grenade launchers is justified here. When you need to tear it to shreds over there, over there and over there, or not give the opportunity to stick out. You can say a helicopter version on tracks or on wheels. Of course, without any hint of transporting troops even on armor. The BMPT is too large for these purposes and can burn infantry with the exhaust of its MANPADS.
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    1. 0
      12 October 2022 07: 04
      Quote: Lara Croft
      controversial statement,

      Undeniable. undoubtedly deeply erroneous and vicious, which everyone who knows anything about the real war has been screaming about for decades. But proponents of the idea that “everything should be done by professionals” have an advantage. They screwed everything up precisely because they are in power. And all we can do is howl in pain...
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  54. 0
    11 October 2022 15: 59
    The army must be professional, which is why we will conclude a contract with each conscript.

    HZ. In my opinion, this is a mercenary army.

    PS. Regarding professionalism as a competence, the most annoying example is the Luftwafe in WWII. The exhausted aces were knocked out by massive middlings.
  55. 0
    12 October 2022 07: 00
    In the modern world, it is impossible to imagine a truly effective army that would not be recruited on a professional (contract) basis.
    Alas, the very first sentence of the article suggests that its author does not have anything worth listening to. due to the lack of important details in the head) Actually, the Ukrainian conscript army has just brought down our highly professional contract army. And for this stupid idea, which the author made central in his article, the residents of the newly captured Ukrainian regions are now paying the price, who are shot and thrown into ditches.
    Can't imagine? You should go to the janitors, you don’t need a highly developed imagination there...
  56. 0
    12 October 2022 18: 51
    From the article I realized that it is not worth arming armored personnel carriers with weapons capable of confidently hitting other armored personnel carriers. because it doesn't matter!
  57. 0
    13 October 2022 14: 31
    The author's logic looks strange! - Well, yes, until recently we relied exclusively on a small, professional army, but then it turned out that such an army is good against various kinds of terrorists, but against any large army, it stalls... As for strengthening the armor of any price, incl. and due to the removal of weapons, even this is not so clear... Some strengthening of the side armor does not at all protect an armored personnel carrier from a grenade launcher, for example... An illustrative example, which upset the author so much, is from Zambia: they were supplied with "Tigers" with combat modules... We must assume that the Zimbabweans themselves ordered them this way... And you shouldn’t think that they don’t know what they are doing... Numerous jihad mobiles say the same thing: there is no armor at all, the Ukrainians put combat modules on everything can...Moral: we need a balance between armor and weapons...According to the author, our armored vehicles should only be “buses” for the military, but we also need to fight, our theorists somehow miss this idea.... Yes, it’s possible increase the weight of the vehicle, strengthen the armor (not at the expense of firepower), but this is not a panacea, because modern Western sniper rifles of 12,7 mm caliber give armor penetration - 30 mm at 500 m... And armored personnel carrier armor protects against conventional small arms ...
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  59. +1
    13 October 2022 22: 11
    For such an analysis of the needs for combat vehicles of the Armed Forces, if there was such an opportunity, it would be necessary to sit at an open round table officers and soldiers with extensive combat experience in various theaters of military operations and leading designers of military equipment and all of us, amateurs, to listen to what their discussion will be about .
    I think this will be very useful to listen to.
    1. 0
      22 October 2022 15: 20
      What do designers have to do with it? They do not decide what to produce and put into service. Guys with big bellies need to be rolled along the front lines in these buckets; those who remain (if there are any) will quickly fill the army with such armored personnel carriers that the Jews will become envious.
      1. 0
        29 November 2022 14: 23
        I don’t know which guys with big bellies you mean.)) Well, if I understand you correctly, these guys are far from the front line, where the main military tasks are solved, and from production, where military equipment is created to solve these problems, but at the same time they decide who how to fight and what to produce for this. The point is that who directly solves problems on the battlefield and who creates the equipment for this would not have unnecessary intermediaries among themselves.
  60. 0
    14 October 2022 03: 12
    We have modern equipment for parades, but we go to war on old cardboard Soviet infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, and our tanks are only part of Soviet production after modernization, with the power of defective managers nothing good will happen, they don’t know how to create, they know how to cut the loot and ruin it, calling it optimization and so on in all spheres of life, only Moscowabad is developing
  61. -4
    14 October 2022 22: 13
    Very sound and correct criticism.
    Unfortunately, the Russian Federation is not going to do anything with armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles. Everything suits everyone there.
  62. 0
    22 October 2022 15: 17
    So, as the smartest and most modest, I set a task for the Ministry of Defense.
    1. Abbreviation BMPT - abolish.
    2. Call the vehicles that have become nameless BMPs, giving it a new meaning. Not an Infantry Fighting Vehicle, but an Armored Support Vehicle, and it doesn’t matter whose support. Increase production.
    3. Re-equip T-62s removed from storage (and if T-55s are available, then them too) during modernization and transfer them to new infantry fighting vehicles.
    4. The remaining nameless former infantry fighting vehicles, and with them all tin buckets called armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles, must be categorically removed from the contact line, under pain of execution.
    5. So that the demoted serviceable equipment does not get bored and rust in the rear, re-equip all these self-propelled chassis with Nonami and equip them with modern guidance systems, and fill the ammunition load with Granyas and Whalers.
    Report completion with a citation.