Active protection of tank armor - a dead end or a new stage of evolution

117

Trophy on Abrams

Dead ends of active protection


The nature of the conduct of hostilities in Ukraine, especially at the first stage of the special operation, requires taking into account the specifics of the use tanks and other armored vehicles in urban areas. Despite the fact that the work of domestic and Ukrainian active protection systems (KAZ) of tanks is not observed, there are several fundamental questions about the expediency of these systems in the future.

It is worth starting with a high degree of urbanization of the theater of operations - for example, Donbass is practically a single urban agglomeration. In the future, the allied forces will have to storm many large cities - Kharkov, Zaporozhye and further to the west. For any armored vehicle, these are very uncomfortable conditions for combat, and KAZ plays a controversial role here. Especially for infantry, without which a tank in urban areas becomes almost a perfect target for grenade launchers. We have already seen a lot of evidence of the helplessness of single armored vehicles in Mariupol. And vice versa, there are a lot of videos showing how important it is for infantry units to have a shock fist from at least an armored personnel carrier, not to mention infantry fighting vehicles and tanks.



Only now KAZ leaves armored vehicles with virtually no cover. If you believe open data, then each such system creates a dead zone around the armored vehicle, in which a triggered submunition is guaranteed to hit infantrymen. For some KAZ (for example, LEDS-150), it can reach 30–40 meters. Naturally, no one will measure meters with a ruler, and will take a distance with a margin of 50 or even 100 meters. There will be a new tank fear, only now to their armored vehicles. The tank in such a situation will be left to itself with all the ensuing consequences.







T-72B3 with KAZ "Arena-E"

The high probability of false positives is also important. There are several aspects here.

Firstly, even the most expensive and advanced technology is not capable of producing a 100% selection of objects moving in the field of action of the airborne radar. False alarms with a high probability are possible when flying a friendly RPG or ATGM, or even a simple artillery shell. Fighters often use the tank as cover to attack the enemy with grenade launchers and infantry flamethrowers. How will the airborne KAZ react to this?

The second aspect is that modern active defense systems have not actively fought anywhere except Israel. That is, everyone around has high hopes for products, in fact, based only on the results of field tests. In order to work out and level out potential shortcomings, KAZ must fight, but it is not allowed. Neither Bandera nor the allied forces have it.

The circle closes, and the systems remain the stars of the testing grounds. And for several decades, starting with the world's first Drozd system on the T-55AD. Now KAZ is in service with nine countries at once - Russia, the USA, Israel, Germany, France, South Africa, Ukraine, Korea and Italy. Since the combat effectiveness of this product has not been proven in practice, it remains only to theorize about the possibilities of miraculousweapons.

Bouquet of minuses


In addition to the high danger to the infantry and the high cost of false positives, active protection can become potentially dangerous for the tank itself. Especially when the enemy is armed not with primitive RPGs and anti-tank systems of the first generations, but with something significant. For example, anti-radar missiles, which are easy to sharpen to combat tank radars. The vast majority of KAZ are equipped with centimeter and millimeter range detection and tracking radars. And this is a vital necessity - the tank is not always clean, and all optical range search systems quickly become dirty. In addition, no one canceled dust and fog, which is also critical for expensive, but effective lidars (laser sonars) in clear weather.

As a result, it is unlikely that it will be possible to get rid of the radio emission that unmasks the armored vehicle, and the tank on the battlefield is already a fairly noticeable player without it. This disadvantage is especially noticeable for long-range KAZ (Italian Scudo and American IAAPS), which are capable of intercepting ammunition at a distance of several tens of meters. There is a contradiction here - if you make the radar less powerful, you will have to bring the submunition detonation site closer to the tank, and this requires much less reaction time.

Short-range systems (American TRAPS and German AMAP-ADS) respond to an attack in 0,6–30 ms, which increases the cost and complexity of technical solutions many times over. And, of course, reduces reliability. Natural difficulties arise when installing short-range KAZ on lightly armored vehicles - the remnants of ammunition, even after a successful defeat, can penetrate armor.



Trophy on Leopard-2A7

At the same time, one cannot say that KAZ consists only of shortcomings. The effectiveness of these systems should theoretically manifest itself in the operational space of the south of Ukraine. When the notorious "gray zone" is hundreds of meters, if not kilometers, close infantry support is not so critical. Especially in terms of positional confrontation. Or on the march as part of a column. Here, KAZ has much more time to react, and the effectiveness against RPGs and ATGMs is beyond doubt. As well as the possibility of hitting tanks with sub-caliber ammunition, against which active defense has little chance, is beyond doubt. As well as against "smart" missiles of the third generation, capable of being guided into the least protected upper projections.


Trophy on Abrams. Forced counterweights are clearly visible

Interestingly, the most effective means against KAZ tanks was invented in Russia in the early 90s. The Atropos family of rocket-propelled grenades and projectiles played the role of the vanguard in front of the main cumulative ammunition. In tests, it looked like this - a small-sized 40-mm grenade with an electromagnetic warhead passed unhindered to the tank's armor and temporarily blinded the tank's on-board radar, as well as IR sonars and lasers, with a powerful microwave pulse. Thus, space was cleared for the next cumulative grenade.

"Atropos" was performed in the form factor of a portable RPG, as well as in the caliber of the most common domestic artillery systems. And finally, the crudest means of suppressing the active protection of the tank is the RPG-30 "Hook", equipped with a leading grenade, which simply takes the hit of the submunition. KAZ simply does not have enough time for the “real” grenade following it. The disadvantage of such simple means of combat is the small attack distance and the difficulty in detecting the target. Not every fighter can accurately determine that he has a tank with an active protection complex in front of him.

The next disadvantage of KAZ can be considered excessive fragility for armored vehicles. Firstly, tanks often clean up rubble in urban areas for light vehicles and infantry. The remnants of a brick wall or something stronger will fall on the tank and that's it - active protection is no longer active. They have not yet learned how to launch counter-munitions because of the armor and track targets from there. Secondly, now even light armored vehicles like the "Tiger" can be equipped with automatic guns, one accurate salvo of which can clear the armor of "extra" add-ons. In support of dynamic protection, it can be said that a small-caliber gun does not always cause a false detonation.

One of the problems of KAZ that is not obvious at first glance is excessive voracity. At one time, they tried to mount the Israeli Iron Fist on the Bradley BMP, but in vain - there were not enough energy resources. An interesting mechanism for installing KAZ Trophy on the American Abrams. The tower had to put large energy storage units or energy storage units, which, in turn, required counterweights in the nose of the tower. As a result, the system, light at first glance, noticeably made the tower heavier and complicated the design.

KAZ is mounted on tanks complete with an additional power plant. For example, as on the Leopard-2A7, which the Germans are equipping with the Trophy system. It is worth recalling that when the fuel runs out, or the energy source is damaged, the KAZ on the tower will turn into a trinket at a cost of 1,3–1,5 million dollars. For comparison, dynamic protection is deprived of such a dubious option.

The example of Iron Fist, which requires at least 200 W for radar in the mode of detecting sub-caliber 120-mm projectiles, speaks about how quickly active protection is able to pump out the energy resources of a tank. But even this does not guarantee the destruction of the "scrap" on the approach - the fragmentation field of a high-explosive submunition is not enough to implement. A sub-caliber projectile requires for itself an impact core or a cumulative jet, which greatly complicates the accuracy of aiming at an extremely durable and high-speed target.

Of course, no one will refuse active protection - according to forecasts, by 2028 the market for these products can double from the current $4,2 billion at once. But it seems that this will remain an expensive toy for wealthy NATO countries, playing on their imaginary technological superiority. Dynamic protection, which until recently was tried to be written off, will remain a true mainstream in tank protection for the foreseeable future.
117 comments
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  1. +2
    8 September 2022 05: 08
    against which the active defense has little chance. As well as against "smart" missiles of the third generation, capable of being guided into the least protected upper projections.

    To be honest, I am surprised why KAZ has not yet been developed for the upper hemisphere, who is to blame here: the MO, which did not open the corresponding order, or the developers. Such a KAZ would be safe for infantry in urban battles, mortars firing at the horizon could be turned off or even temporarily dismantled for such a case.
    As for anti-warning missiles, it makes sense to use the millimeter range in KAZ (unlike the aviation centimeter range), there is no PLR for this range, even if they create - how effective they will be, for example, in urban battles - the grandmother said in two. In any case, it will be difficult to detect a tank from afar, but close up, the tank is already easy to see and capture for tracking by an optical or IR system.
    1. 0
      8 September 2022 15: 39
      Quote from Andy_nsk
      To be honest, I'm surprised why KAZ has not yet been developed for the upper hemisphere, .....

      ... The modernized Arena-M armored vehicle active protection complex, which is planned to be equipped with Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks, is capable of repelling an attack by any anti-tank missile - both the Israeli Spike and the American Javelin. The complex provides protection for the machine from any direction - including in the upper hemisphere.....

      By the way, this is what we see in the photo in the article called KAZ "Arena-E" (E-export version of this complex)
    2. 0
      4 November 2022 10: 50
      Eh, you would be a developer, you would have already covered the upper hemisphere and in general the tank was covered with a power cocoon. Strain your brain and figure out where you will put the radar on top and missiles firing into the upper hemisphere?
      1. 0
        4 November 2022 12: 22
        Eh, you would be a developer, you would have already covered the upper hemisphere and in general the tank was covered with a power cocoon. Strain your brain and figure out where you will put the radar on top and missiles firing into the upper hemisphere?

        It's too late for me to become a developer, I've been a developer for forty years, though I have nothing to do with tanks.
        According to the location of the antenna and mortars: obviously, it will not work to arrange them as in Leopard-2: the place is already occupied by boxes of dynamic protection. I would place KAZ on the roof of the tower, in my opinion, the most convenient place to protect the upper hemisphere.
        1. 0
          4 November 2022 19: 16
          How to arrange, in vertical racks? How do you imagine it, an excellent target for small arms, and some kind of monster will turn out, especially in terms of hatches for the crew.
          1. 0
            5 November 2022 07: 21
            As far as I can imagine, the height of the mortars when installed at an angle of 45 degrees will be about 250 mm (correct me if I'm wrong). Racks seem unnecessary to me. That's what you need - a small armored visor that protects against flat horizontal fire in front of at least the checkpoint, and it should not interfere with firing grenades into the upper hemisphere (in case of a javelin attack). The protection of the frontal projection of the tank, I think, makes sense to leave behind dynamic protection.
            As for antennas, to be honest, I am not a specialist in millimeter-wave antennas, I will express the most general considerations. It is clear that this is an antenna based on phased arrays, not active (expensive and short distance suggests the simplest solutions) in the form of a multilayer printed circuit board, if possible, hide the active elements behind a steel sheet (it can also serve as a radiator). Antennas can be structurally multi-element in the form of separate removable elements, as cheap as possible and easily replaceable. And finally, both antennas and mortars can be covered with an armored cap, which leans back or opens on command from the crew in case of a threat of shelling with javelins or similar grenades.
            I understand that there is a lot of amateurism in my "project", I hope that those developers who will be involved in this project will approach the solution more deeply, having studied world experience, which, although small, is available.
            1. 0
              5 November 2022 12: 17
              You want to close the upper hemisphere, so the mortars should be directed straight up, plus add a radar, increase the tank's power consumption by the consumption of the radar. Now close the mortars with 10 mm armor, and you get something creepy. Please note that if you cover the mortars with armor, you will be forced to raise the radar above it. No one has yet managed to cover KAZ from small arms, and this is true. Well, the cherry on the cake: you have to remove reactive armor, weakening the armor of the upper hemisphere. KAZ, in the version that is now, a dead-end branch of the development of tank protection, is difficult, expensive and ineffective against a developed enemy, but it allows you to launder big money.
              1. 0
                5 November 2022 15: 53
                Now close the mortars with 10 mm armor, and you get something creepy.

                Straight!
                No one has yet managed to cover KAZ from small arms

                I have to do what no one before me could do. "Nobody except us!"
                Well, the cherry on the cake: you have to remove reactive armor, weakening the armor of the upper hemisphere

                And to hell with it - anyway, it does not protect the upper hemisphere from either javelins or simpler grenades during battles in the city.
                KAZ, in the version that is now, a dead end branch of development

                So it is necessary to develop KAZ in effective execution.
  2. +6
    8 September 2022 05: 16
    An interesting review, little-known nuances are revealed. But I have doubts about the effectiveness of the use of anti-radar missiles. Specialized huge PRRs give a miss of 5-8 meters, and here it’s probably something light-infantry, and the tank needs a direct hit.
    1. AUL
      +8
      8 September 2022 07: 40
      In addition to the high danger to the infantry and the high cost of false positives, active protection can become potentially dangerous for the tank itself.
      When the idea of ​​remote sensing was proposed in Israel in the early 70s, in special. there was also a lot of criticism in the literature - they say, they will beat all the infantry around the tank. Nothing happened, now a tank without a DZ is not a tank. Now the same fears are molded to KAZ. I think it will be the same with them!
      1. -2
        8 September 2022 11: 35
        And there they were rolled out to the war (not to be lost because of the mound in the Papuans, but normal, with at least relatively different forces in terms of aviation and other things)?
    2. +3
      8 September 2022 15: 08
      "interesting review"
      That's for sure, the author has well covered the problem. But ... The conclusion is that KAZ will only be an expensive toy, and DZ is unlikely to be the basis for protecting tanks.
      As the problem of high cost is solved and KAZ blocks are placed inside the armored volume of AFVs, such systems will receive an increasing number of tanks and other combat vehicles.
      But KAZ will not become a panacea.
      A well-protected armored object must have both powerful combined armor and good remote sensing. and high mobility, and perfect surveillance devices.
      Philosophy says so wink : unity and struggle of opposites : masses with demands for mobility, etc. generates a transition of quantity: a complex of protective systems into the survivability of a tank on the battlefield
    3. +1
      5 November 2022 12: 33
      The PRR hits with fragments, but the tank will be demolished by all attachments, including mortars, radar, sighting devices and damage the gun along the way. At the same time, the infantry will get it. Only now, Harm's price in 1992 was around $300 apiece, and this is the United States for its Air Force, now I think it will be under a million, a little expensive for firing at a tank, given not the coolest efficiency, difficulty of use, not intended to fire at a moving target and a high probability of destruction by air defense systems of both the carrier itself and the missile.
      1. 0
        5 November 2022 13: 21
        Quote: Victor Sergeev
        The PRR hits with fragments, but the tank will be demolished by all attachments, including mortars, radar, sighting devices and damage the gun along the way

        The tank is designed to withstand fragments, even a light one. HARM has a warhead of 66 kg, which means explosives there are no more than 20 kg. When the main tank misses, both high-explosive action and fragmentation are useless. The optics are protected by tips, the radar antenna is a consumable, albeit an expensive one. In addition, it is not clear from what distance the PRR aircraft will capture a non-self-powerful radar.
        So it's not just about the cost of PRR.
        1. +1
          5 November 2022 14: 51
          The tank does not hold fragments from a charge that hits in a direction, it is not possible to protect either the radar, or the mortars, and even more so the optics, and the gun is generally vulnerable, the steel is not armored there. Harm on the tank will not be applied unambiguously.
  3. -7
    8 September 2022 05: 36
    The game is not worth the candle ... a dead end, it is a dead end in Africa, it's time to make an unmanned tank.
    1. 0
      8 September 2022 11: 37
      Better self-guided, so that they give the task and he went.
      One computer and a pack of batteries in terms of volume will be good if like 2 crew seats.
      And there are at least 3 of them.
      The amount of reservation can be reduced.
      1. +2
        8 September 2022 12: 27
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyOx4LbfYB0

        Cartoon "Polygon" (Soyuzmultfilm, 1977)
        1. 0
          8 September 2022 13: 11
          Well, not so cool, but yes, there may be jambs.
          Type to confuse their own and others if similar.
          For that, if there are a lot of equipment (and there are only enemies) - throw a couple of hundred and not worry about losses (after all, there is only a car) - great.
    2. +2
      9 September 2022 20: 34
      Quote: Konnick
      it's time to make an unmanned tank.

      The Israeli Ministry of Defense begins testing a combat robot from Elbit Systems
      The robot vehicle is equipped with a 30-mm cannon, the Elbit Iron Fist active protection kit, fire control systems, situation control and combat missions. The M-RCV is also equipped with a reconnaissance drone and passive tracking equipment, and will serve as a missile platform, including for the Spike ATGM.
      https://youtu.be/hNLCa6isqJA
  4. 0
    8 September 2022 05: 42
    It worries that KAZs cannot distinguish blanks from real ammunition flying into armored vehicles ... how to solve this problem?
    Obviously, KAZs are not a panacea for defeating enemy strike weapons ... we must look for other forms of tank protection based on other physical principles that are cheaper and more reliable. what
    1. +5
      8 September 2022 06: 22
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      It worries that KAZs cannot distinguish blanks from real ammunition flying into armored vehicles ... how to solve this problem?

      A strange cause for concern. Very few "blanks" have an approach speed comparable to at least an RPG, and even a "blank" with the speed of BOPS cannot be anything other than BOPS at all.
      1. +2
        8 September 2022 16: 04
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        It worries that KAZs cannot distinguish blanks from real ammunition flying into armored vehicles ... how to solve this problem? ....
        So there is no such problem. Of course, any equipment can have a malfunction, but KAZ will certainly not react to everything that moves and flies past the tank.
        Look at the T-14 turret, how many sensors are there to detect threats. And having all this, will it work on something flying by?
    2. -1
      8 September 2022 09: 33
      NWO showed, and it was the shelling of bridges and nuclear power plants, that
      we need a projectile KAZ for the defense of stationary objects
      subject to the interception of shells at a distance of at least 5 km from the object
      that's for sure super-task for our research institutes - probably even need a mobile complex
      developments on a stationary topic are KAZ Mozyr to protect silos from nuclear warheads ICBMs
      but unlike intercepting 1-3 nuclear warheads, a self-propelled gun battery per minute can throw up to 50 shells
      1. 0
        8 September 2022 13: 08
        This is treated by reconnaissance and target designation so that no self-propelled guns / MLRS can approach a circle with a radius of 25-50 km without being noticed, local missile defense / air defense only complements this system and does not replace it, the shield will never win against the sword, there will still be a gap, according to It needs a sword too..
        1. +1
          10 September 2022 11: 04
          Intelligence cannot reveal everything. A constant mini-air defense would not hurt.
      2. 0
        8 September 2022 13: 25
        There is an option to use artillery with programmable projectiles, for example, "Direction - Air Defense". Since the trajectory of MLRS shells in the final flight section is a cylinder with a diameter of 10-20 meters (in the case of bridges), using a ZAK battery of 6 guns, you can significantly thin out the number of missiles that have broken through.
  5. -1
    8 September 2022 05: 52
    From my sofa I see a group KAZ, combined with protection against small drones. The truth will have to change the staff of units. But in any case, the states will change. The minimum unit will not be a squad, but something like a reinforced platoon, with pocket air defense / KAZ, tactical UAVs, pocket artillery, and live targeting capability for aircraft and 152mm (and larger calibers) artillery.
    1. -1
      8 September 2022 06: 12
      the functions of the KAZ department should be carried out by a separate machine, and in theory this machine should be the BMPT
  6. -4
    8 September 2022 07: 22
    "In the future, the allied forces will have to storm many large cities - Kharkov, Zaporozhye and further to the west" - the author, share: how far is this future? At least with an accuracy of plus or minus a month
    1. 0
      10 September 2022 00: 06
      In minus six months.
  7. IVZ
    +1
    8 September 2022 07: 41
    Now, unfortunately, there is a unique opportunity to work out the domestic KAZ in combat conditions against the weapons of the main enemy. Everything and everyone has flaws. Development is also needed in order to level these shortcomings.
    Fighters often use the tank as cover to attack the enemy with grenade launchers and infantry flamethrowers. How will the airborne KAZ react to this?
    Probably it will have to be disabled completely or in a certain sector. Tests are needed to work out such issues.
  8. 0
    8 September 2022 08: 31
    Now KAZ is in service with nine countries at once - Russia, the USA, Israel, Germany, France, South Africa, Ukraine, Korea and Italy.

    And also China - GL-5.

    Given the fact that Chinese VT-4 tanks are in service with Pakistan, Thailand and Nigeria, the list of countries is expanding even more. In any case, Pakistani tanks have such protection for sure.
    In addition, the LEDS-150 system used by South Africa is a development of the Swedish company Saab. And the Swedes install it on the CV90. Given that the CV90 is used by a dozen countries, it is difficult to outline the circle of countries that have KAZ in service. And LEDS-150, apart from Sweden, is produced in India. For yourself and everyone.
    Yes, Turkey has also joined these ranks by developing its own system - Akkor.
    1. -1
      8 September 2022 09: 50
      Turkey did not develop, but bought a license for the Ukrainian Zaslon-L.
      1. +1
        8 September 2022 10: 17
        KAZ based on "Barrier-L" is called Akkor-Pulat. These are different projects.
        1. 0
          8 September 2022 15: 46
          Scattering of fragments when KAZ "Arena" and "Barrier" are triggered
          1. +2
            8 September 2022 16: 16
            Incorrect expansion pattern at the Arena, the Arena submunition, a brick, is fired up a little to the side, and the defeat comes with a segmented directed fragmentation field, and why didn’t they add the RG or ATGM itself to this, they also bang and create a spherical field with a fragmentation radius of up to 30 and more than meters, and it is not yet known which is worse for the infantry, an explosion of a directed submunition field or, say, an ATGM.
            1. -1
              8 September 2022 16: 26
              Quote: merkava-2bet
              Incorrect expansion scheme at the Arena
              Everything is right there. If the grenade itself explodes at the "barrier", slightly protruding beyond the body of the armored vehicles (the figure shows the spread of fragments from the tank itself), then the "arena", as you indicated, the submunition is fired to the side and it is already directed (in a beam) shoots fragments at goals. Therefore, on the diagram, fragments are indicated away from the tank.

              By the way, the Arena-M(E) has a controllable submunition, so compared to the Arena, it manages with fewer submunitions, but it covers a larger sector.
              1. +1
                8 September 2022 16: 58
                By the way, the Arena-M(E) has a controllable submunition, so compared to the Arena, it manages with fewer submunitions, but it covers a larger sector.

                Where infa, you can source and photo, not stories and myths and Wishlist.
                1. -1
                  8 September 2022 17: 35
                  Quote: merkava-2bet
                  Where infa, you can source and photo, not stories and myths and Wishlist.
                  That is, reading the link a little higher is not fate. Well, I will repeat to you individually https://rg.ru/2021/09/20/raskryty-osobennosti-raboty-kompleksa-aktivnoj-zashchity-arena-m.html.
                  And a similar request to you, do not write unfounded messages, but confirm with links to the primary sources of the published information,
                  otherwise you undertake to talk about the spread of fragments of the Arena submunition, not knowing that it shoots fragments with a beam (moreover, sideways), and not all sides, which anyone interested in this topic knows about.
                  1. +1
                    8 September 2022 18: 02
                    otherwise you undertake to talk about the spread of fragments of the Arena submunition, not knowing that it shoots fragments with a beam (moreover, sideways), and not all sides, which anyone interested in this topic knows about.

                    And I advise you to read carefully what I am writing, at the top of the link a year ago, which you kindly provided, empty words and no more, but I asked for facts, they are not.
                    Regarding my facts, for starters, the Courage and Armored forums, there are a lot of things I posted there, as well as links.
                    And besides, I posted a photo of the tanks themselves from the KAZ Windbreaker, I took it myself, it should already talk about something, and other facts can be found on the Internet and YouTube, it's not difficult.
                    1. -1
                      8 September 2022 19: 05
                      Quote: merkava-2bet
                      according to the link of a year ago, which you kindly provided, empty words and no more ....
                      Well, if the information from Vladimir Kharkin, head of the development and design department of the Kolomna Design Bureau, the developer of the KAZ "Arena", in your opinion, is empty words and nothing more, then the information from you, sorry, then it's worth nothing at all.
                      1. +1
                        8 September 2022 19: 21
                        Well, I'm not the head of the KBM, but I'm an operator of many systems of the IDF ground forces, and the last system that I studied in 2014 was the KAZ Windbreaker and other systems under a very large signature, and it was I who studied and repaired and also offered improvements, in terms of mechanics and electricians, I didn’t get into electronics, this was done by firms.
                      2. 0
                        8 September 2022 19: 36
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        the system that I studied in 2014 is KAZ Windbreaker
                        Is the information that the maximum speed of the ammunition from which KAZ "Trophy" can protect - 250 m / s, true or erroneous?
                      3. +1
                        8 September 2022 19: 46
                        No, it’s a lie, much more, more than 1000m / s. The photo of the tanks that I posted near the Gaza Strip is the KAZ Windbreaker of the fourth edition, with large-scale improvements, both in electronics and in radar with ECO and most importantly in ammunition.
                      4. -2
                        8 September 2022 20: 08
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        ... over 1000m/s

                        "Arena", without any mechanical pickups (where it is obvious, loss of time), shoots down targets at speeds of 70-700 m / s, and "Windbreaker" with mechanical guidance of mortars from which submunitions are fired more than 1000 m / s? Doesn't sound real. It is not for nothing that I have not seen the performance characteristics of these "Windbreakers" in the public domain, which means there is nothing to be proud of there.
                      5. +1
                        8 September 2022 20: 17
                        Have you seen the performance characteristics of KAZ Arena or Drozd, real and not advertising?
                      6. -2
                        8 September 2022 20: 33
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        Have you seen the TTX KAZ Arena or Drozd, real and not advertising?
                        So they are put up for sale abroad with these performance characteristics (for example, "Arena-E") and how it will end if the performance characteristics are lies.
                        Do you have examples of the fact that the performance characteristics of Russian military products from the exhibition did not correspond to the declared one?
                      7. +1
                        8 September 2022 20: 39
                        One of the most high-profile sales of defective MiG-29 SMT to Algeria, or is it a lie, but also going through the torment with an aircraft carrier for India, also with a deception about the KTU and much more connected with it.
                      8. -1
                        8 September 2022 21: 06
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        One of the most high-profile sale of defective MiG-29 SMT to Algeria
                        When the goal is to break the deal, then a lot of things can be said.

                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        as well as going through the torment with an aircraft carrier for India, also with deception about KTU and much more connected with it.
                        Not at all suitable for an example: there, almost every week, they changed the terms of reference for a ship. With this approach, the modernization of the ship could take forever.
                        Here they scolded our T-90s. Scolded, scolded. And then they ordered new batches in Russia, although they have their own assembly plant and could assemble them themselves.
                      9. 0
                        8 September 2022 22: 07
                        When the goal is to break the deal, then a lot of things can be said.

                        And you believed it?
                        Well, the Greek tank tender, as well as the Pakistani "deal of the century", shame and disgrace, to lose the former republic of the USSR having two tank schools out of three, as well as a much more powerful industry than Ukraine.
                        And I almost forgot, the loud failure of the MiG-35 in India in 2005, the consequences are still hitting your military-industrial complex.
                      10. -1
                        8 September 2022 22: 32
                        And what does it have to do with tenders for the sale of military equipment?
                        The question was, where did ours lie in the performance characteristics of their products?

                        Yes, and in tenders, as if only the best products win there.
                        If we sell tanks to Pakistan, we could lose such a client as India, and the potential for purchasing weapons from India and Pakistan is incomparable.

                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        the loud failure of the MiG-35 in India in 2005, the consequences are still hitting your military-industrial complex.
                        And what is this beating expressed in?
                      11. +1
                        8 September 2022 22: 47
                        And what does it have to do with tenders for the sale of military equipment?
                        The question was, where did ours lie in the performance characteristics of their products?

                        For starters, read about them, a lot has been popping up lately.
                        And besides, we are moving away from the topic, but it reminds KAZ, period.
                      12. -1
                        8 September 2022 23: 37
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        And besides, we are moving away from the topic, but it reminds KAZ, period.
                        Yes, the topic of KAZ, in which you constantly assert without evidence that in the products of the Russian military-industrial complex in the indicated performance characteristics they lie.
                      13. +2
                        9 September 2022 00: 24
                        Yes, the topic of KAZ, in which you constantly assert without evidence that in the products of the Russian military-industrial complex in the indicated performance characteristics they lie

                        I don’t need to prove, you have to live with it, read the specialized forums on the topics of truth or not in your military-industrial complex, as the last fresh example, so as not to return to this topic again, Armata tank, BMP Boomerang, Kurganets, etc., where are they all, from 2014 to now, is everything so good and are your soldiers and officers fighting in Ukraine, you can not answer.
                      14. -2
                        9 September 2022 12: 51
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        I don't need to prove...
                        Clearly there is no evidence.

                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        and so on, where are they all, since 2014 ....
                        And again a dismount on another topic. What does the presence of equipment in the troops have to do with it, if the question was about the published performance characteristics of equipment.
                        You can not answer, because the answer from you will still be off topic.
                      15. -1
                        9 September 2022 13: 08
                        You are a blind and foolish friend, are you afraid of the Internet, yesterday in 5 minutes I found all the evidence of the stupidity of your MO through tests and various lies from all sorts of bureaucrats, but you continue to carry a blizzard and not notice the truth, I'm already tired of giving you examples and giving hints, it feels like you are 12-15 years old, it may be enough to bear heresy.
                      16. 0
                        9 September 2022 13: 14
                        And the last, especially for you, it was on this forum that various uryapatriots tore their throats that the Armata tank had a weight of 48 tons, and then a boar and officially blurted out that it was already 55 tons, I said that this was not enough, but I was subjected to a mass diarrhea of ​​​​patriotism of local uryakalk, this so to start.
                      17. 0
                        9 September 2022 13: 17
                        Most of the weapons of both the Soviet and Russian periods do not correspond to passport data, some I personally checked in Israel.
                      18. 0
                        8 September 2022 22: 51
                        could lose such a client as India, and the potential for arms purchases from India and Pakistan is incomparable.

                        They have almost lost it, the Indians are looking more and more to the West, and they have practically lost Pakistan, the dragons of the Celestial Empire rule there.
                      19. 0
                        8 September 2022 20: 40
                        So they are put up for sale abroad with these performance characteristics (for example, "Arena-E")

                        And who bought them, remind me?
                      20. -2
                        8 September 2022 21: 08
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        So they are put up for sale abroad with these performance characteristics (for example, "Arena-E")

                        And who bought them, remind me?
                        And this proves that the declared performance characteristics are not true?
                      21. 0
                        8 September 2022 20: 21
                        from which the submunition is fired

                        It doesn’t fire, but a multi-nuclear cumulative core is blown up on a carriage with an initial speed of more than 2000 m / s, I wrote above, be careful.
                      22. -1
                        8 September 2022 20: 38
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        It doesn’t fire, but a multi-nuclear cumulative core is blown up on a carriage with an initial speed of more than 2000 m / s, I wrote above, be careful.
                        I understood that the "Windbreaker" shoots a cannonball, but I thought that it, like our "Afghanit", is fired from a submunition after it flew out of the mortar.
                      23. 0
                        8 September 2022 20: 44
                        how our "Afghanit" is fired from a submunition

                        Which one of ours, do you have arguments and facts on Afghanistan, were you on trials, or did you develop them?
                      24. -2
                        8 September 2022 21: 12
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        Which one of ours, do you have arguments and facts on Afghanistan, were you on trials, or did you develop them?
                        I repeat the question:
                        Do you have examples that Russian military equipment manufacturers would lie in published performance characteristics?
                      25. +1
                        8 September 2022 20: 50



                        Here you can see the detonation of ammunition on the gun carriage.
                      26. +1
                        8 September 2022 20: 13
                        The initial speed of the multi-cores of the detonated ammunition is more than 2000 m / s, and around the tank there is, so to speak, a virtual circle through which the RG and ATGM should not pass, about 15-20 meters from the tank, in order to reduce the impact of the explosion of the warhead RG or ATGM, which is what I tried to tell you explain above, since this is very important, and according to this criterion, the KAZ Arena does not pass, here the sum of two explosions, a brick and an ATGM warhead is superimposed in the immediate vicinity of the tank, and this is fraught with at least damage and even worse is the passage of the liner of the cumulative warhead missile into the tank , too close. At the same time, KAZ Drozd is devoid of this problem, since the explosion occurs at a distance from the tank, much greater than that of the KAZ Arena, but it also has a drawback, it is very limited vertically.
                        In addition, look at the photos and videos of the KAZ Arena tests, the tank is always immobile and the side that is fired upon is protected by powerful armor, and most importantly, they shoot not at the tank, but at the protective armored screen.



                        And this is a link to YouTube, where the process of defeating the RG and the flight of the cumulative jet liner from the detonated warhead RG are clearly visible
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aA9HsmLHBQ
                      27. 0
                        8 September 2022 20: 45
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        At the same time, KAZ Drozd is devoid of this problem, since the explosion occurs at a distance from the tank, much greater than that of the KAZ Arena,

                        At KAZ "Drozd" fragments from the exploded ammunition scatter in all directions, in the form of a disk, so an insignificant part of the fragments hits the incoming target. At the "Arena" - a beam directed towards the target, therefore the impact on the target is higher, and the area covered with fragments (at a distance of 20-30m) is less.

                        At the Arena, each submunition covered a certain sector, and when the ammunition approaches, the automation decides which one to launch.
                        The Arena-M(E) has a controllable submunition, so the sector it can cover is wider.
                        "Afghanit" has a submunition, the same, we control it, and the impact core is fired sideways (as well as fragments from the "Arena")
                      28. 0
                        8 September 2022 20: 55
                        Here we are not talking about where the fragments fly, but about the distance of detonation from the tank of the RG and ATGM in order to reduce the damage to the tank by the pestle of the cumulative jet.
                      29. 0
                        8 September 2022 22: 04
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aA9HsmLHBQ
                        Threats shot down by "Windbreaker":
                        RPG-7 grenade speed 112-145 m / s
                        and as I understand it, "Javelin" - I did not find the speed of the rocket, but it is not one of the nimble ones.
                        That is, the film proves that the target that flies at a speed of 145 m / s "Windbreaker" knocks down.
                        And where are the faster targets in the tests?
                      30. 0
                        8 September 2022 22: 21
                        YouTube to help you.
                        And name me at least one portable or portable anti-tank system, which has a supersonic flight speed, not self-propelled or aviation.
                      31. +1
                        8 September 2022 22: 23
                        And where are the faster targets in the tests?

                        The destruction of the Cornet ATGM in combat conditions is not considered, what is its speed?
                      32. 0
                        8 September 2022 23: 32
                        Quote: merkava-2bet
                        The destruction of the Cornet ATGM in combat conditions is not considered, what is its speed?
                        300 - 320 m/s
              2. 0
                8 September 2022 17: 48
                By the way, the Arena-M(E) has a controllable submunition, so compared to the Arena, it manages with fewer submunitions, but it covers a larger sector.

                In the USSR, the designers of guided weapons, especially ATGMs, adopted the concept that everything expensive should remain on the launcher, but it turned out to be vicious, Russia still does not have Spike or Javelin ATGMs in service. But short-range systems such as KAZ should be as simple and the main thing is effective, therefore, on KAZ Windbreaker there is ammunition detonated on a gun carriage with a directed cumulative charge of the “multi-shock core” type, and on KAZ Needle of Porcupine, high-explosive ammunition is fired for lateral destruction of RG, ATGM and BOPS, and its most complex element is a digital programmable fuse and everything, there are no other complicated things.
  9. 0
    8 September 2022 08: 38
    This disadvantage is especially noticeable for long-range KAZ (Italian Scudo ...

    Italian Scudo combined - both long-range and short-range.
  10. -6
    8 September 2022 09: 04
    Who will refuse to dilute the budget for huge sums? Useless and expensive garbage, in wars with a strong enemy and not needed against savages. Israel is fighting against paramilitaries, it can and will help.
  11. +8
    8 September 2022 09: 40
    It is interesting to watch the somersaults of the uryakalok. If there were KAZs on our tanks, the foaming at the mouth would prove that our KAZs are the most KAZas and analogues.

    But they are not on our tanks. And now the fools are forced to prove just as furiously how dubious, unnecessary and even harmful this thing is KAZ.

    "Looks good,
    Yes, green - there are no mature berries,
    Immediately you will nag off. "
  12. -4
    8 September 2022 11: 33
    Fighters often use the tank as cover to attack the enemy with grenade launchers and infantry flamethrowers. How will the airborne KAZ react to this?


    By the way, yes.
    Not only can the tank at any moment "blow KAZ" on its own, but also this.
    1. +1
      8 September 2022 22: 38
      There is something like algorithm and softwareon which the KAZ radar operates, and such a question to you that the air defense system shoots down everything that flies to the left and right?
      1. -1
        9 September 2022 02: 24
        The air defense system has a larger radius and reaction time. And the decision is made by the individual.

        The tank does not have such a luxury as a Negro-air defense officer (and there is no point, there will be no time to make a decision), there they also abandoned the Negro-loading in decent countries a long time ago. I mean, autos and that's it.
        Well, yes, you can watch it fly past or into the tank, let's say along the trajectory.
        But what "flies by" may well be a roofbreaker.

        In short, it's safer to dump everything.
    2. -1
      10 October 2022 17: 45
      Firstly, this is a question for the software part of KAZ. Modern KAZ systems are simply obliged to understand what is flying into a protected object, what is past, and what is flying in a completely different direction from the tank. The first should go astray, and the rest is a waste of ammunition. Secondly, KAZ should have sectoral protection, and if the infantry is hiding behind one side, will the KAZ supplies work on this side? It is extremely unlikely that they will cover themselves from the side from which the shelling is being carried out. And the consequences of something flying into the upper hemisphere of a tank without a KAZ is another question - worse or better. As for me (IMHO), the consequences without KAZ are at least comparable in tragedy, if not worse in the vast majority of cases. And lastly, KAZ is not only anti-missile / anti-grenade. This is a hardware-software complex, which includes the installation of smoke screens and warnings about the defeat. And all this should work in a complex
  13. +3
    8 September 2022 11: 47
    Deadlocks of active protection ... no one will refuse active protection - according to forecasts, by 2028 the market for these products can double from the current $ 4,2 billion at once. But it seems it will remain an expensive toy for wealthy NATO countries, playing on their imaginary technological superiority. Dynamic protection, which until recently was tried to be written off, will remain a true mainstream in tank protection for the foreseeable future.


    Bad article. And the fact that it was written by an intelligent person is even worse.

    Nothing has changed in over 70 years.
    “Is it really possible to prepare the listeners the way he was preparing - for such a war as we see with you! And if only the tongue was well suspended! Otherwise, there was a really knowledgeable person! But he knew one thing, but said another. Herald of notorious untruths!
    - And you from the very beginning did not believe that he thinks so, as he says?
    / / / /
    - I didn't believe it. There were those who sincerely believed that in one fell swoop, seven beatings! By this God will forgive. If alive... And he couldn't believe it. Was too smart and knowledgeable for that. "
    [B] [/ b]
  14. -6
    8 September 2022 12: 51
    I agree with the author - KAZ is a dead end. The speed of projectiles and missiles is increasing, the technical possibility of tandem systems or intelligent attack systems is no longer an obstacle. The means of optical and sensory suppression are being improved. I also note that the saturation with modern ATGMs in promising conflicts is increasing - there are enough players on the market representing a variety of systems, now, according to the results of the SVO, they will flourish quite predictably, because to a large extent they have done their job - they held back the tanks by raising the "price for entry ".
    A product equipped with KAZ gets technical fragility because sensors and elements are affected by high-speed fragments and small calibers. As the author noted, the efficiency of the system drops unpredictably from this, replacement in the field is not always possible (including for logistical and economic reasons). Apparently, this is an unrecoverable drawback in the case of maintaining these systems on the tank itself.
    Also, since KAZ is not 100% protection, even a single pass of a fairly expensive system leads to the loss of equipment and some part of the crew - after all, using such complexes, developers rely less on effective reservation of a number of sections.

    Actually, what else, if not KAZ? I believe that like it or not, you will have to choose the path of the tank as an expensive and sufficiently protected "piece" product, that is, choose multilayer ceramic-metal armor with fillers. Ideally, with a high degree of modularity, such - for the possibility of replacing damaged elements in field conditions AND strengthening the reservation of certain sections for the specifics of the task. That is, IDEALLY, you need a set of several typical armor elements that are mass-produced and capable of covering the most convenient sections of the tank for destruction AND ALSO capable of increasing efficiency in case of layering.

    Options for "active armor" that sometimes come across in publications, in my opinion, if possible, are not without flaws and will not be very soon. It is also worth noting that their use will require the tank to have much more powerful energy systems.
  15. +9
    8 September 2022 12: 58
    For me, the only drawback of KAZ is its price. All these arguments: it will kill the infantry, cannot work in the city, etc. for the poor. If you have an illiterate army and nothing more complicated than an AK or an RPG does not help you (an example of the Ukrainian militias who do not know how to use modern nlaw, it turns out that you need to follow the batteries laughing ) then Kaz is not for you. If you have a modern advanced army, then REASONABLE! warriors will come up with strategies on how to use + and negate -. (In the same city) There would be a desire hi
    1. +4
      8 September 2022 13: 43
      Gold words.
      1. +5
        8 September 2022 16: 14
        Quote: merkava-2bet
        All these arguments: kill the infantry, ...
        When this argument is cited, to a counter question: "And when an ATGM crashes into the tank and explodes, which could be intercepted by KAZ, will it not kill anyone from those standing near the tank?" You usually don't get an answer.
  16. +2
    8 September 2022 13: 37
    He also talked a lot about the effectiveness of KAZ, and as a result, he made a KAZ project that is devoid of the listed shortcomings.
    - high cost
    - danger to surrounding infantry
    - vulnerabilities from shrapnel
    - vulnerability from the upper hemisphere
    - fragility
    - Vulnerabilities from tandem ammunition
    Of course, there are also disadvantages, for example, low efficiency from BOPS
    Unfortunately, due to the low competence in the development of the radar, it will not be possible to make a mock-up for a technical project.
    In the near future I will try to send a presentation of a promising KAZ to the DGOZ.
    1. 0
      8 September 2022 14: 04
      Good luck, at least you help your MO to move.
  17. +6
    8 September 2022 13: 41
    Bullshit, the author is a complete amateur and sucks all kinds of crap out of his finger.
    1) The only KAZ in the world that has been baptized by fire since 2011 and successfully is KAZ Windbreaker, and everyone in the world has followed its path, either buy or create on its basis, and now the Porcupine Needle, and the author for some reason didn't write about it.
    2)
    Only now KAZ leaves armored vehicles with virtually no cover. If you believe open data, then each such system creates a dead zone around the armored vehicle, in which a triggered submunition is guaranteed to hit infantrymen. For some KAZ (for example, LEDS-150), it can reach 30–40 meters. Naturally, no one will measure meters with a ruler, and will take a distance with a margin of 50 or even 100 meters. There will be a new tank fear, only now to their armored vehicles. The tank in such a situation will be left to itself with all the ensuing consequences.

    Nonsense in the steppe, the author that we smoke.
    A little secret, in addition to the KAZ counter-munition itself, there is also a RG or ATGM, and imagine they also have a warhead and much more powerful, and it also explodes.
    1. 0
      8 September 2022 14: 11
      and yet, an ATGM detonation on (dynamic) armor, or 10m from the tank, will differ not only in the size (and distance from the tank) of the total common affected area, but also in the direction of expansion of the striking elements of the KAZ countermunition
  18. +5
    8 September 2022 13: 43
    This "expensive toy for wealthy NATO countries" could save dozens and hundreds of lives of our tankers. Everything that is possible flies into the tank anyway, so the infantry next to it has nothing to do. Regarding the selection of targets: the radar should, as it were, itself determine whether an ATGM flies into the tank or runs parallel to it. But you don’t need to make a 60-70 ton colossus out of a tank with poor cross-country ability, with a voracious engine to set this miracle in motion
    1. 0
      8 September 2022 18: 36
      KAZ is another reason why BMPTs should support tanks. At the entrance to the city, infantry must be brought up for tanks by armored personnel carriers and MRAPs. In the city, assault infantry should act ahead of the tanks, and not hide behind them. Everything is already written in the statutes
  19. +3
    8 September 2022 13: 52
    Firstly, even the most expensive and advanced technology is not capable of producing a 100% selection of objects moving in the field of action of the airborne radar.

    I agree.
    False alarms with a high probability are possible when flying a friendly RPG or ATGM, or even a simple artillery shell.

    This phrase especially killed me - when flying a friendly RPG or ATGM, or even a simple artillery shell.
    The author is from a hangover, as soon as something enters the KAZ destruction sector, it will be immediately attacked, based on all the parameters of the flight to the tank, and it doesn’t matter if your ATGM or not. No need to write garbage in vegetable oil.
  20. +3
    8 September 2022 14: 00
    The second aspect is that modern active defense systems have not actively fought anywhere except Israel. That is, everyone around has high hopes for products, in fact, based only on the results of field tests.

    And this is how to understand that KAZ has been fighting for 11 years and shooting down all sorts of RGs and ATGMs in real military operations and wars, and most importantly it was adopted in other countries, for example the USA, but they won’t take shit, and the author means all this as polygon-open your eyes and Internet unbelieving Thomas.
  21. +4
    8 September 2022 14: 15
    Now KAZ is in service with nine countries at once - Russia, the USA, Israel, Germany, France, South Africa, Ukraine, Korea and Italy.

    Lies and does not blush.
    Russia has a serial KAZ-no
    The USA has our KAZ Windbreaker
    Germany plans to buy our KAZ, there is no serial one of its own.
    France does not have its own serial KAZ, they are planning something.
    South Africa does not have its own serial KAZ either.
    Ukraine does not have a serial and mass KAZ, otherwise there would not be steel coffins in the fields.
    Korea is experimenting, but there is no serial KAZ either.
    Italy has none of its own.
  22. +3
    8 September 2022 14: 48
    The vast majority of KAZ are equipped with centimeter and millimeter range detection and tracking radars. And this is a vital necessity - the tank is not always clean, and all optical range search systems quickly become dirty. In addition, no one canceled dust and fog, which is also critical for expensive, but effective lidars (laser sonars) in clear weather.

    Come on, but we live in Switzerland. Here are a couple of photos I took myself two years ago near the Gaza Strip, an improved KAZ Windbreaker with multispectral optoelectronic modules.

  23. +2
    8 September 2022 15: 55
    In addition, no one canceled dust and fog, which is also critical for expensive, but effective in clear weather lidars (laser sonars)

    After this opus, I question the author's competence in knowledge of the material. Lidar is laser radar, not sonar, a tank is not a submarine, and by the way, this site has excellent articles on lidars and some of them have a range under water of 250 meters or more, and this is under water, so bad weather will not update their capabilities, and it's strange who will shoot in bad weather and, most importantly, how they will receive an indication of the target.
  24. +3
    8 September 2022 16: 33
    It is worth recalling that when the fuel runs out, or the energy source is damaged, the KAZ on the tower will turn into a trinket at a cost of 1,3–1,5 million dollars.

    In general, heresy has gone, when a tank runs out of fuel, it turns into a steel coffin, and it doesn’t matter whose country and what type. And I’m wondering where the prices for KAZ come from, you can source.
  25. +5
    8 September 2022 16: 48
    The example of Iron Fist, which requires at least 200 W for radar in the mode of detecting sub-caliber 120-mm projectiles, speaks about how quickly active protection is able to pump out the energy resources of a tank. But even this does not guarantee the destruction of the "scrap" on the approach - the fragmentation field of a high-explosive submunition is not enough to implement. A sub-caliber projectile requires for itself an impact core or a cumulative jet, which greatly complicates the accuracy of aiming at an extremely durable and high-speed target.

    And this is generally tin, and stupid, stop disgracing the author.
    Where does the information about the voracity of KAZ come from, the AFAR radar uses a special algorithm and it has a mm range and works at a maximum of 500-700 meters, for a tank, and you don’t need more, read RADA booklets. And even at the Merkava-4Barak tank, where the KAZ radar Windbreakers also perform the role of detecting and ground targets in bad weather conditions, as well as small airborne targets such as a quadrocopter, and soon this year we will adopt it.
    The article is complete slag, devoid of meaning and, most importantly, propagates myths and stupidity.
    As for the BOPS, yes, the KAZ Porcupine Needle destroys them, there is a video, namely a side high-explosive detonation, from which the crowbars break into segments, and now a counter-munition is being tested with a controlled multi-point detonation to create an accurate controlled directed explosion.
    1. 0
      11 September 2022 02: 23
      Quote: merkava-2bet
      The article is complete slag, devoid of meaning and, most importantly, propagates myths and stupidity.

      The article is just that. But KAZ is also not a panacea. ATGMs and RPGs overcome KAZ during salvo firing with a pair of rockets or grenades. For example, in Grozny, the Chechens had groups consisting of a grappler, a sniper, a machine gunner and 2-4 submachine gunners. Would add another grenade launcher. Not very difficult. It all depends on the theater of operations and the intensity of the conflict.
  26. +2
    8 September 2022 20: 29
    each such system creates a dead zone around the armored vehicle, in which a triggered submunition is guaranteed to hit infantrymen
    If something explosive flies over the tank, the infantry will not care whether "their own" worked or "someone else's".
  27. +5
    8 September 2022 21: 51
    The article is the slag of an amateur couch expert. Discussions about the need for KAZ should be stopped, as about whether a platoon or company quadrocopter of the Mavik type is needed to conduct reconnaissance and direct artillery.
    Now we need to work on the errors:

    1) "shoot" (at least demote max - imprison) everyone in the RF Ministry of Defense who is responsible for the fact that we have tanks without at least some kind of KAZ. If someone is already retired from the fat ass - deprive the general's pension, leave only the civilian minimum wage

    2) while there is no new KAZ, it is urgent to return KAZ DROZD to service as it has completely passed all the tests and was put into service in the USSR (now it will cost no more than ammunition, because everything else can be found in landfills and storage bases of the RF Ministry of Defense)

    3) URGENTLY install radar sets with AFAR (costs 80 r per sector) + smoke grenades on all armored vehicles so that when a tank / armored personnel carrier is fired towards an ATGM, ammunition will fly, which, after its explosion, instantly deprives the enemy of the opportunity to see the attacked object by overlapping to the enemy (GOS-ATGM) of the line of sight, creating a protective cloud blocking both the visible and IR ranges of the spectrum. For 30 years they have not learned how to shoot down ATGMs, so at least interfere with aiming with an ordinary cloud of smoke grenades !!!

    I don't know how much more curses must be sent to the RF Ministry of Defense, because of our MBT, special and automotive equipment is completely devoid of protective intelligence.

    Now already, if in the circle of the tank on the armor artificially install Chinese smartphones for 2000 re each and make software for them, calling it distributed station of optical and sound reconnaissance, which will search in real time for all types of threats "in 10 eyes" from bugs with ATGMs, calculating the point from where the shot was fired at the tank (where the sound came from), to controlling where their own are (recognizing them visually as a person), then it is possible to increase the awareness of the tank commander by an order of magnitude, which will lead to an increase in situational awareness and survivability of MBT. And if you keep a quadrocopter on a wire / leash above each tank, which from a bird's eye view will inform the commander about threats using AI, then it will generally be space.

    And in general, the tank must be covered on the battlefield by NOT infantry, it is NOT needed there, the tank must be kept in full informational awareness at the ATGM firing distance, so that the tank itself can know where to shoot first. This task is easily solved today - with "hundreds of eyes" that should be installed on quadrocopters and accompany tanks in battle. Moreover, information from these 100 eyes must be processed by AI, giving out to the commander or support group only those images where there are signs of a real threat.



    Yes, there is a group of art. support works in an old-fashioned way with human eyes and hands. Even calculations for art are done on a calculator. But, what and how she sees, deprives the enemy of the opportunity to suddenly attack. And tanks can thanks to such eyes destroy birds / threats from a distance of up to 12 km, working as artillery.

    How much does KAZ cost?

    KAZ consists of radar + protective ammunition.
    Protective ammunition costs like RPG shots, i.e. in terms of tank prices, they are worth nothing.

    AFAR for radar on aliexpress about $ 100-$ 500 (pictured is an employee of the Ukrainian special services who, through FB, provides technical support for Starlink satellite terminals, which the Pentagon supplied to the Armed Forces of Ukraine)



    Radar electronics are not more expensive than 2 receivers / transmitters (transceivers) for the range from 10 MHz to 6 GHz i.e. no more than two "HackRF SDR" or $600

    There are also our ready-made solutions for a penny


    Those. tales about the cost of KAZ in millions of dollars are nothing more than the desire of crooks and thieves to cut budgets.
    1. +3
      8 September 2022 22: 14
      It's nice to see a person who understands, and also writes with reason.
    2. 0
      11 September 2022 01: 20
      Quote: Sergey Venediktov
      AFAR for radar on aliexpress about $ 100-$ 500 (pictured is an employee of the Ukrainian special services who, through FB, provides technical support for Starlink satellite terminals, which the Pentagon supplied to the Armed Forces of Ukraine)



      This headlamp is not for radar, but for radio communications. A completely different device.
      1. 0
        15 September 2022 00: 25
        HEADLIGHT or AFAR is an antenna

        Do you understand?

        all radars use antennas to radiate and receive radio signals
        1. 0
          15 September 2022 20: 44
          Quote: Sergey Venediktov
          HEADLIGHT or AFAR is an antenna

          Do you understand?

          all radars use antennas to radiate and receive radio signals

          The antenna you refer to in your message is a radio antenna, it is not suitable for radar.
          1. 0
            20 September 2022 06: 11
            Quote: Comet
            The antenna you refer to in your message is a radio antenna, it is not suitable for radar.


            POTOK radar is a radar for detecting an object and measuring its speed :)
            1. 0
              20 September 2022 23: 39
              Quote: Sergey Venediktov
              Quote: Comet
              The antenna you refer to in your message is a radio antenna, it is not suitable for radar.


              POTOK radar is a radar for detecting an object and measuring its speed :)

              The Potok-1 radar, TSKYa.466369.007, is a radar detector of vehicles (TC) and is designed for automated registration of traffic intensity.
              Range of measured speeds, km/h - From 5 to 160
              Viewing angle of the product horizontally, no more than - 16º

              Are you going to do KAZ on it? Oh well...
              1. 0
                24 September 2022 18: 46
                Are you going to do KAZ on it? Oh well...


                I'm not going to do anything :) In Milandra, they create the most modern radar with AFAR in the Russian Federation, which is several orders of magnitude superior to all that fabulously expensive trash that was before them and was used in KAZ. And there is a simple explanation for this: they developed a high-speed ADC (5101HB045), which nullified the need to have hardware implementations of 95% of the functional blocks of conventional radars, making them software. I used the "flows" as technology demonstrators that cost no more than 1 OFZ shot from a tank and provide real-time target tracking with a range resolution of 75 cm, despite the fact that they are designed to meet the requirements of state standards, which limit their functionality for the sake of electromagnetic compatibility with other road users.


  28. +1
    9 September 2022 20: 26
    I think that here it is necessary to focus on the most financial and developed countries, such as the USA, Israel, Germany, etc. If they are actively adopting KAZ, then it makes sense and they clearly spent good money on research, and we can just believe the fact that they do and do the same. Right now, they are trying to equip our new equipment with KAZ in Ukraine, they began to understand that at first we began to introduce the same MRAPs, now ours just pray for them, they urgently demand to the troops, because they hold mines and fragments with machine guns much better than our armored personnel carriers and Infantry fighting vehicles ... the same situation with heavy infantry fighting vehicles, Western developments have long exceeded 30 tons with heavy protection, and only ours stubbornly put soldiers on boxes, and the troops require heavy infantry fighting vehicles with active protection and good mine resistance
  29. 0
    9 September 2022 21: 53
    This is a very well written point. Somehow I lost hope for an effective tank defense. You, gentlemen, did not help me much in the discussion. I assume that the author was interested in the fighting in Ukraine. Good article and good author. Thank you. am
  30. -2
    10 September 2022 00: 03
    >for wealthy NATO countries
    In Ukraine, in Kaliningrad, in the Caucasus, etc.

    The question here is why it is impossible to make bullets imitating grenades and rockets. with radio reflectors. The queue from the machine - and KAZ is empty.
    1. 0
      11 September 2022 02: 28
      Quote: NG inform
      The question here is why it is impossible to make bullets imitating grenades and rockets.

      And that's how it will be. While there was no widespread introduction of KAZ, there was no widespread introduction of methods and means to overcome it. It is only a matter of time, and a very short one.
  31. 0
    10 October 2022 08: 24
    About 15 years ago, I wrote that someday all guided and cumulative projectiles will become ineffective due to the development of electronics. And the good old 120mm cannons with sub-caliber shells, to which all these active defenses are up to one place, will come out on top. Only now, in order for the tank to reach the distance of the shot, it will need to cover all the same KAZ, etc.
    .
    Today we need an automatic shotgun on the turret of the tank, which will shoot Javelins on the way. At a distance of 2-3 meters. And with optical sensors. Afraid of dirt - put two. One is closed or washed, the second is vigilant.
    After changing the flight algorithm of the Javelins, better electronics will be needed to select targets flying not from above, but from the horizon.
  32. 0
    10 October 2022 17: 25
    Twenty-five again. But why these KAZs - so many problems ... Author, how many people did you talk to who used KAZ in battle? In order to reject something (all the more there is! There are already serial samples !!!) it is necessary to test it not in the conditions of research laboratories or classrooms. From criticism: if it locks up, then KAZ can be turned off, and in modern KAZ this can also be done automatically when friendly motorized riflemen are detected. KAZ is not only mortars with counter grenades / missiles, but also new systems for building smoke screens, a warning about an upcoming strike. KAZ is also a software package that CAN distinguish the direction of flight and shoot down only what moves towards armored vehicles, and does not fly past, trophy can do this, why do you think that they can’t do this with us, but simply hit everything that beside? That's it, enough to write such nonsense already - let at least one regiment with KAZ be formed and then some conclusions can be drawn
  33. 0
    11 November 2022 20: 44
    As the SVO showed, the tank in its current form is not needed, in fact it is a police tool, in the face of weak enemy resistance, which, along good roads, with unhindered delivery of diesel fuel, is brought to the parliament and shoots it. Well, not bad for parquet biathlon. Also, in a certain sense, this is a finishing tool, when the enemy is already actually defeated, has shot all his high-precision ammunition, but has not yet surrendered and he has some means of destruction, and even then it’s risky, suddenly a javelin lurks somewhere.

    In real combat conditions, with a more or less equal enemy, this is just a target, a mass grave, and even if not, then more energy is spent on passing somewhere than on artillery with a drone, or on a separate strike drone.

    Unfortunately, in all countries there is a strong tank lobby, and for many years we will observe attempts to revive tanks by hanging multimillion-dollar KAZs on them.

    I myself think that in the development of tanks, archaization is needed in a certain sense, for example, a return to the original meaning - a tank. Refusal of weapons, ammunition, a rotating turret, only a mechanical driver from the crew, or even automation, but it is possible to bring fuel more or less guaranteed in front-line conditions. And front-line conditions, now it is 10-20 km from zero and further. A sort of armored personnel carrier based on a tank that can withstand most shells, and is also relatively cheap.

    Alternatively, you can think about some kind of armored wall-armored shield on tracks, that is, the entire body is armored, even if they are fired from cumulative grenade launchers, such a machine can also be used to break through walls.

    In addition to each tank model, it is necessary to make a fake tank with a price 10 times less, from some non-armor-resistant cheap materials, but with the same appearance, the same sound during operation (simulate if necessary, as on a conditional Tesla, the sound of an internal combustion engine is simulated ) and the same thermal profile so that conditionally 10 tank tanks with fuel drive on the road, but 9 tanks are actually fake, let the enemy figure out which one to shoot