Military Review

Pavel Grachev's last interview: “Across the White House, runaway, fire!”

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Pavel Grachev's last interview: “Across the White House, runaway, fire!”

What the first Russian defense minister never told about Boris Yeltsin, the war in Chechnya and the storming of the White House

Alfred Koch and Petr Aven, colleagues of Pavel Grachev on the Russian government at the beginning - mid-1990-s, interviewed the former Minister of Defense for his book “The Revolution of Gaidar”. This is the last interview with Grachev, who passed away on 23 on September 2012. And, of course, the most sincere. Here are published excerpts from the many hours of conversation between the three former ministers.

About Boris Yeltsin and his entourage

- Yeltsin then (at the beginning of 1991 of the year - Forbes) was in disgrace, and Yazov and Achalov (Dmitry Yazov and Vladislav Achalov, at that time Minister and Deputy Minister of Defense, the first subsequently became a member of the Emergency Committee, the second was supported by the Supreme Council during the 1993 coup of the year. - Forbes) had a negative attitude towards its activities. I knew Yeltsin only by hearsay ...

And now they call me, they say: “Boris Nikolayevich will talk to you”. “Pavel Sergeevich, hello, I know about you, heard and so on, I want to visit the Tula Airborne Division.” I say: "Here you need permission from the Minister of Defense." "And what, you yourself can not?" I say: "Itself, of course, I can not, but I will call, ask." Called Achalov. He thought, said: "Now I will consult with Yazov". Fifteen minutes later he calls and says: “Well, that, Yazov allowed, only you meet him more accurately. There is no need for bread and salt, there is no need to jump in front of him and so on. Accept him so coldly, do not feed, do not particularly drink, do not rant anything. ”

Yeltsin arrives with his retinue. And in the process of this acquaintance, it seemed to me that this was a rather pleasant, intelligent, independent person. To be honest, I already liked him even then, although Achalov called me several times and said: “You see how we instructed, so behave yourself.” Well, I answered him: “Vladislav Alekseevich, he is a normal person. Why should I not show what is in the Airborne Forces? ”“ Well, look, just don’t feed or drink it. ”

Well, I shot, moved, then Yeltsin said: “Well, what, lunch?” And I already gave the command to the rear commander to make a good lunch in the tent. After all the shows, I started him in a tent, he looked - he naturally liked the table. I asked: "How about alcohol?" He: "With pleasure!"

We had a good time with him, we drank, and there was a lake nearby, only the ice was gone. He offered me a swim. We undressed and jumped with him. All guards jumped behind us ... And Korzhakov (Alexander Korzhakov, head of security of Yeltsin. - Forbes) jumped. And where would he go? At that time, Korzhakov was no one, a senior lieutenant picked up on the street, who was forced out by his own guys. This is how we, after our acquaintance, embraced and parted as comrades.

Naturally, they immediately stuck with me that I met him too well. Again, Achalov called, saying: “Well, it won't be that easy for you” ...

... When Russia actually gained its independence in August 1991, we gathered from him [Yeltsin], went to the forest. Man six or seven was. Boris Nikolayevich himself suggested: “Let's fraternize. I won't throw you in my life, and let us swear on blood. ” They took a knife, cut each other's hands, licked blood ... I, Korzhakov, Kozyrev (Andrei Kozyrev, Minister of Foreign Affairs - Forbes) ... Is this, like his late Victor, the KGB? He recalled: Barannikov (Viktor Barannikov, then Minister of Security of the Russian Federation - Forbes), Rutskoi (Alexander Rutskoi, Vice President of the Russian Federation - Forbes) was not. Skokov (Yuri Skokov, Yeltsin’s advisor at that moment - Forbes) and someone else, two people ... We found a tire there, laid out a drink, a snack. The tire, apparently from the Belarus tractor, boarded and swore on the blood on its initiative. And then he threw all of us. Suddenly.

About the coup 1991 of the year

- Somewhere in June-July of 1991, Yazov says: “Kryuchkov wants to get to know you (Vladimir Kryuchkov, chairman of the KGB of the USSR, member of the Emergency Committee. - Forbes)” I come to Lubyanka: uncomfortable, of course. I did not have time to go to the waiting room when the door opens and he meets me. This seemed to me: quiet, modest ... I sit, tremble. Though I am a paratrooper, but uncomfortable, of course. Such an office is hard ...


“The situation in the country is incomprehensible. Mikhail Sergeyevich [Gorbachev] inappropriate got sick. Politburo without a leader. Some ferment in the people begins. ” I listen so carefully. “You see, it’s possible that a situation when ...” From afar began: “I, like, wanted to ask you, perhaps a situation will arise when the support of the Armed Forces will be necessary.” I say: “For what purpose?” “Well, maybe the people will not understand. It will be necessary to take the most important objects under protection. Well, actually, I invited you to work out a possible plan for a peaceful transfer of power from Gorbachev to the Politburo if it is impossible to continue working. ” I say: "I do not know such plans." [Answer:] "No big deal." He says: “We will give you two more people and send you to the suburban residence. You relax there at the same time, and make a possible plan of action. ”

We arrived at a luxury cottage in the woods. The table is laid, only the waitress, no one. "We will work here." They thought, wondered, got their documents on the transfer of power in various African countries, tried on: nothing fits. I'm sitting, silent. I see, the guys do not behave very actively, because, in principle, they themselves are confused ...

In short, we worked for three days, worked and could not think of anything clever. The only thing I insisted was that the role of the Airborne Forces should have been that, if possible, enter Moscow and take the main buildings under protection so that they would not break it, as in 1917 year ...

Two weeks passed after that. I thought that was all. [But August 16 1991] Ahalov says: “Order. Prepare two divisions for possible entry into Moscow, listen to the radio and watch TV. ” I gave the command to the Tula division to prepare for the march on their own and the Bolgrad division (airborne division stationed near Odessa. - Forbes) to land on the Chkalovsky airfield.

When Tchaikovsky started playing on TV, Achalov calls me: “Enter the Tula Division”. I say: “For what task?” “Take the most important objects under protection, etc.”. These objects were drawn in advance. I gave the command: "Forward." The division quickly coped. After a while Yeltsin’s call: “Where are your troops?” I say: “One division is heading for Moscow, and the other is in Odessa, ready to parachute to Chkalovsky airfield. “You, he says, will you shoot me?” I say: “Boris Nikolayevich, no one will shoot” ... He was afraid that the command would be given to capture him. Personally his.

He believed me that I would not storm him with his battalion at the White House.

And the team to capture the White House was 17-th in the evening. Achalov called and said: "Well, this is the situation, it will be necessary to capture Boris Nikolayevich after all." I say: “Give us a written order. This is the same blood, the same will start shooting everywhere. They will not give him up without a fight. ” "You will have a written order." "Will - I will fulfill, I will not - I will not." After that, I immediately at the headquarters of the Airborne Forces, here in Sokolniki, I gathered my peasants, deputies, saying: “So and so”. We talked and our decision was reduced to the fact that no matter what the order was, not to shed blood and not to storm anything. They called their special forces, besieged so that they would not capture us. Skokov (at that moment Yeltsin’s adviser - Forbes) came to us. I say: “Yur, tell Boris Nikolayevich that even if I order you to storm you, I will not. Because blood will be shed, it will still be a failure of this drunken Politburo, and I’m the main fighter. It’s easy for me to die, but I have a family, children. ” He says: "Thank you."

Then they call me again: “In the morning I need to capture. At seven o'clock". I again have my wildebeest: "If there is no written order, I will not take any action." Seven in the morning, I do not take any action. I call the reception [Yazova]. There, some peasant replies that the Minister of Defense is resting and asking him not to wake up. I think: "Wow, such a time, and he is resting." Called Achalov, there is also a reception room, they say: "It is resting, I asked him not to disturb." I say: “Tell me that this is Grachev, they say, about a written order. We sort of agreed, waiting for sitting ... ". They say: "give". I say: “Everything, we will not storm, we will wait” ...

We breathed a sigh of relief: they would not pass, they freaked out. Well, the men and I drank brandy.

About the coup 1993 of the year

- On the night from the second to the third [October 1993], about three o'clock in the morning, Boris Nikolayevich and Korzhakov came to me in the Ministry of Defense, several other people. Well, a little bit yielded ... A little bit undermined, so excited. Boris Nikolaevich says: “Pavel Sergeevich, here the mayor's office and Ostankino are captured. To calm and not allow further development, we must take these guys in the White House. ”


Well, I, as usual, say: "Boris Nikolaevich, a written decree, and I am ready for anything." Then Korzhakov spoke: “What is the written decree? Boris Nikolaevich, I knew that they would start to coward too! ” I say: “Listen, you shut up.” Well, Yeltsin was furious here: "There will be a written decree for you." Lied, by the way: he was never there. Then, after a sobering-up at five in the morning, he called me and said: “You see, Pavel Sergeyevich ... You see what kind of situation ...” Be ... me ... In the spirit that it seems like you have to do oral ... Well, I say: “Boris Nikolaevich, Of course I will. What needs to be done? ” "Grab all these guys." Well, I tell him: “Boris Nikolaevich, I have the 119th regiment standing parachute-landing at the White House. There are no problems, but we will incur losses. ” "What do you suggest?" I say: "I propose to scare them." “I will bring the tank to direct fire and inert piz ... well, several times. They themselves will run away, wherever. At least they will go down to the cellars, the sniper will also run away after these shells, and there, in the cellars, we will find them. ” "Good". Well, I take the tank to the stone bridge near the "Ukraine", I myself go to tank, I put him as a gunner-operator of the captain, for the driver-mechanic - the senior lieutenant, I go up to the tank, and the bullets clatter - cap, cap, cap, cap. At the end, I think they will not get it. I say: “Guys, can you see the roofs? Count out. One, two, three, four, five, six, the seventh window. This, presumably, is Khasbulatov’s cabinet (Ruslan Khasbulatov, chairman of the Supreme Council. - Forbes), they are there. You have to get there, out the window. “Are there shells?” - “Combat or such?” “What kind of combat?” Are you crazy? Let’s go. ” - "Good".

And below is a lot of people already. At our place, onlookers love the same way they came to the theater. I say: “Guys, look, you will not fall, the people will perish. Then everything will be torn apart. ” To the captain I say: “Will you fall?” “I shall fall! Just think, less than a kilometer. ” “Did you see the back, American embassy?” Look, bangs about the embassy, ​​there will be a scandal. ” "Comrade Minister, everything will be fine." Well, I say: "Fire, one." Look, the first - bang, just flew through the window. I say: "Still have?" "There is." "Here are five fugitive yet, fire!" He is dumas-dumas-dumas. Look, everything is on fire. Handsomely. All at once the sniper from the roofs instantly fled, as they brushed away a hand. Well, and when the snipers were swept away, the tanks finished shooting, I gave the command to storm the 119-th regiment. They opened the door, they shot there. Well, of course, I had nine dead, there was some shooting inside, but they put a lot of them ... Nobody considered them easy. Lot.

And the captain of the Hero of Russia was given. Senior Lieutenant - Order of Courage, in my opinion. Surnames were immediately classified and sent to serve in other parts. And the White House quietly began to burn, burn, burn. Pashka Borodin (Pavel Borodin, later the head of the Presidential Affairs Department - Forbes) then says to me: “Pavel Sergeyevich, what a fine fellow you are” - “And what for?” - “So much money was given to us, I will repair it”. I say: "Pash, and how much sleep ... did he?" "No, no, no, not a dime."

About Dzhokhar Dudayev and the beginning of the war in Chechnya

- He (Dzhokhar Dudayev, at that time the President of the Chechen Republic within the RSFSR. - Forbes) began to talk about independence not from what he wanted to secede from Russia. He, as a mountain man, was simply stung by the fact that he, the popularly elected, does not reckon, is not invited to the Kremlin, and they say that you are the trash of society for 100%. And he was a general of the Soviet Army, an excellent pilot, division commander. I talked to him a lot. He said: “Pash, nobody wants to talk to me. I am the president, no matter how bad and so on. I was chosen by the people. Kohl don't want to talk to me, then to hell with you. I will put a question to the people about secession from Russia. ” How many times have I informed the government. I say: "We must talk to him." All in bayonets: there is nothing for Boris Nikolayevich to take Dudayev!


I went to him. Let's go to his house (the meeting of 1992 of the year in Grozny is described. - Forbes). There, all these guys, Basayev (Shamil Basayev subsequently commanded Chechen militants, was killed by the Russian special services in the 2006 year. - Forbes) and all the others sat. Normally I was treated. They planted the table laid "with a deflection." I say: “Johar, what are you doing there ... do you do it?” He says: “No one wants to talk to me. Rutskoi even sent me to x ... by phone. If I don’t react, my guys will not understand me, and the people will not understand. ”

I say: "I, probably, will withdraw the troops." "No, I will not let you withdraw." I say: "How not to give? I will shoot. "And we will shoot." “What are you doing?” In short, to sum up, his resentment towards our attitude towards all of this led.

[In 1994 year], it was necessary to invite the delegation led by Dudayev to his office and begin negotiations. No one wanted to. In short, everyone refused a peaceful solution. It was demeaning to them. Go, they say, storm. At first, everyone hung up on me, until the Chechens themselves said: “Grachev has nothing to do with it, he was the only one against the war.”

At this meeting, when I said no, Viktor Stepanovich [Chernomyrdin] stood up, although we had been friends since then, and said: “Boris Nikolaevich, we do not need such a defense minister.” Then Yeltsin took a break. They left to solve my question. Ten minutes later, Boris Nikolayevich comes out and says: “Pavel Sergeyevich, we will not dismiss you, but in ten days we will prepare for warfare.” Then I said: “Winter is already on the nose and so on, what kind of military operations can be in those conditions when you don’t get through, don’t pass, fogs, aviation "doesn’t fly, artillery doesn’t know where to hit, and so on?" "When do you offer?" "In the spring, and before that, negotiate." I wanted to delay time: maybe we can manage to reach an agreement. Neither x ... me! I say: "Viktor Stepanovich, you will be personally responsible for this matter." After that, he and I became cold to each other ...

Read the full interview and introductory words of Koch and Aven in the November issue of Forbes magazine.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.forbes.ru
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  1. Sasha 19871987
    Sasha 19871987 19 October 2012 07: 03
    +2
    for some reason I have associations with him, as with Khrushchev, I seem to have done a lot of useful things, but I also sat down normally ....
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 19 October 2012 07: 29
      +4
      Quote: sasha 19871987

      for some reason I have associations with him, as with Khrushchev, it seems like I did a lot of useful things

      And on usefulness it is possible in more detail, otherwise I can’t remember for memory.
      1. Vanek
        Vanek 19 October 2012 08: 32
        +1
        I don't remember when, I watched "Military Secret" with Igor Prokopenko. And he had a topic for Chechnya. Literally, I don't remember, but the meaning remained in my memory (I really don't know why). So, in my own words, with your permission, - When decisions were made, agreements, etc. regarding the introduction of troops into Chechnya, all the generals of that time, whose daughter was giving birth, who got sick on an emergency basis, who was to plant potatoes and so on. And Grachev then said (I, again, in my own words):

        - If not to whom, then I.
  2. bask
    bask 19 October 2012 07: 12
    +8
    Something is a pity for this not-so-distant person. But he was the main one in the Moscow Region. And he sent an unprepared army to the "HELL" to the war, and even without the right to shoot, at the "civilian" inhabitants. One ,, New Year’s assault, ”led to the deaths of thousands of Russian guys. The death of the Maykop brigade Sorry did not shoot this scoundrel .... And the fallen soldiers In 1 2 Chechen wars Eternal memory ... Not a cat is not forgotten, not that is not forgotten! !!
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 19 October 2012 13: 42
      0
      It was not he who sent him to the battle, he complied with the order ...
      Now it’s possible to tear a shirt on your chest that you had to spit on Harya Yelkin and send it to a known address, but it seems to me that almost all the unsubscribes would go and follow the instructions from above, at best with a fig in your pocket .. .
  3. Yuri11076
    Yuri11076 19 October 2012 07: 19
    +3
    I have the name Pasha Mercedes forever connected with the assault on Grozny in 1995,
    that is, only negative points ...
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 19 October 2012 13: 44
      -1
      You need to look wider and deeper ...
      And the nickname Mercedes was written to him in "everyone's favorite" MK - is it worth repeating?
    2. Kyrgyz
      Kyrgyz 19 October 2012 21: 10
      -2
      Quote: Yuri11076
      I have the name Pasha Mercedes forever connected with the assault on Grozny in 1995,

      Is Pasha a Mercedes, is it not Pavel Borodin?
      1. Yuri11076
        Yuri11076 20 October 2012 03: 29
        +1
        Pasha - Mercedes is Pavel Grachev, who does not know this, you can google ...
        1. With
          With 20 October 2012 03: 51
          +1
          Quote: Yuri11076

          Pasha - Mercedes is Pavel Grachev, who does not know this, you can google ...


          Yes you ShOOOO ???
          At first they thought so



          And then for some reason like that !!!



          You do not accidentally know WHY ?????
  4. max-02215
    max-02215 19 October 2012 07: 22
    +2
    And what's the use? Dropped his people below the city sewer? Sold, and what did not buy destroyed? Has he brought into power the thieves of various poshib? What is useful for the country. But Grachev stupidly violated the oath, obey, he, in 91 order, you look and the story went a different way, although Yeltsin was just a screen, he would not have brought him another. The Jewish-liberal party nomenclature has already put an end to the USSR, there were no more forces ready to defend the people, so I think the top leadership and the KGB were already bought, the whole question was in the divide ......
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 19 October 2012 13: 46
      +1
      And what kind of presentations to the performers? Broke the oath? And if the country itself is destroyed by the highest power? Whose orders to execute?
  5. andrei332809
    andrei332809 19 October 2012 07: 25
    +2
    about the dead or good, or nothing. so I won’t write anything, I’ll be silent
  6. grizzlir
    grizzlir 19 October 2012 07: 45
    +4
    Yes, Yeltsin gathered the gang to suit himself. A group of drinking buddies without shame and conscience but with a great desire for power. What Yazov did not do in 1991 in an attempt to save the USSR GKChP, and he did not give troops permission to use weapons, this was done by Pasha during the lawful dissolution of the parliament in 1993. I don’t even want to talk about his further actions as the Defense Ministry.
  7. Vanek
    Vanek 19 October 2012 08: 25
    0
    to summarize it resentment towards our attitude towards him and led to all this.

    And in truth they say: - The word is not a sparrow ........
  8. dimaas
    dimaas 19 October 2012 09: 05
    +4

    [In 1994] it was necessary to invite a delegation led by Dudayev to him and begin negotiations. Nobody wanted to. In short, everyone refused a peaceful solution. It was humiliating to them.

    Here for some reason I believe in it
    1. esaul
      esaul 19 October 2012 09: 27
      +1
      Quote: dimaas
      Here for some reason I believe in it

      I welcome you, Dmitry. So it was. At that time, imperial (I ask you not to confuse with imperial!) Ambitions won over EBN and he, trying to avoid fragmentation of the country, decided to press Dudaev to his fingernail through humiliation and fear, by his own thoughtlessness and the prevailing methods in the USSR. Who will like it? If you were driven into a corner, you would surely show your teeth.
      He should remember the methods and policies of the Russian Emperors and Empresses in relation to "foreigners" (after all, there was not only the solution of issues through force!) And, perhaps, there would not have been all these Nords and Beslan ...
  9. riding
    riding 19 October 2012 09: 22
    +4
    And yet, it’s scary for a person to admit his abominations, and Grachev’s spirit didn’t have enough to tell the truth about himself
  10. sapulid
    sapulid 19 October 2012 09: 41
    +3
    He slept, not only on the mediocre command that led to thousands of soldiers' deaths in Chechnya, not only on the support of the Chronicle with a Squirrel regime that sold the country, but also on embezzlement, bribery and outright sale of the interests of the Motherland.
    At the end of his life, he could only give an interview to his accomplices on the plunder of Russia.

    After death, I hope, holds the answer for the storming of Grozny and the subsequent chain of sales of our military to the First Chechen.

    He will not rest in peace !!!
  11. tank64rus
    tank64rus 19 October 2012 09: 56
    +6
    General Vlasov, too, justified his service with the Germans under the circumstances. Under the EBN, the US State Department steered Russia. Now those who are thrown back from the feeder again climb to the trough, sorry for power.
  12. mar.tira
    mar.tira 19 October 2012 10: 45
    +5
    It would seem that these events have already been investigated to the point of holes, but still someone is trying to whitewash him again and again. All this is a lie! War is not an easy shooting of the "White House", as in a parade .. It would be an honor for this "man". I would not shoot at my comrades. And when ordered to send troops without preparation, I would refuse, even at the cost of a career. But how much would save young lives. But he Pasha is a Mercedes, and that says it all! The glitter of coins, and the thirst for glory have eclipsed conscience and honor. Damn you c ... n!
  13. Nuar
    Nuar 19 October 2012 10: 45
    +8
    Boris Nikolayevich himself suggested: “Let's fraternize. I’ll not throw anyone in my life, and let us swear on the blood ”
    lovely, lovely
    And then he threw us all. Suddenly.
    what a nightmare - already my heart bleeds

    It's a pity he didn't have time to write his memoirs. "Revelations of an Idiot" - IMHO, a wonderful title.
  14. kov
    kov 19 October 2012 11: 44
    +1
    In military secret, he even dedicated an entire issue
    1. grizzlir
      grizzlir 19 October 2012 14: 07
      +1
      I watched this. He probably felt that the kirdykh was coming up, so he began to whitewash himself. Moreover, no one could confirm his words anymore. As to whether he was an opponent of sending troops to Chechnya, whether or not we would never know. But here is his statement that Grozny will take by the forces of one airborne battalion we watched in the news at the battalion commander in his office. We did not know what to do when they saw, laugh, cry or clutch his head.
  15. dimanf
    dimanf 19 October 2012 11: 46
    +9
    there is no forgiveness for this nits for those who died in October 1993. not for Chechnya.
  16. IRBIS
    IRBIS 19 October 2012 12: 09
    -6
    For "strategists" who are not particularly versed in the issue, trying to earn points. "EVERYONE IS A STRATEGY, SEEING THE BATTLE FROM THE SIDE". Think about it, men. After all, n ... t - do not roll bags ...
  17. omsbon
    omsbon 19 October 2012 12: 24
    +3
    The rapid career rise of an officer with average abilities leads to great problems and misfortunes of people subordinate to him! Unfortunately Grachev is an example of this.
  18. FunkschNNX
    FunkschNNX 19 October 2012 12: 44
    +2
    In any case, Chechnya was and is part of Russia and using the army in internal conflicts is a crime! On the good - half of that Caudla had to be planted for treason.
  19. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 19 October 2012 13: 39
    +2
    It is difficult to say something definite about this material - maybe everything is true here, maybe not! Now you won’t ask him. So whether everything was told - the source is painfully obscene ...
    I suppose that everything was roughly the same as for the events, but questions arise for specific details ...
  20. wax
    wax 19 October 2012 13: 47
    0
    Koch and Aven from the same gang, and on you - continue to broadcast, whitewash. Vilely.
    And Grachev is a war criminal who violated the oath. The people will still destroy them (EBN, Grachev ...) gravestones and throw their bones in the trash. Do not worry.
    1. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 19 October 2012 13: 55
      +3
      Pashka - MERCEDES is specifically guilty of the DEATH of our soldiers and officers in the 1st Chechen campaign. Such a mediocre organization of attack on UKREPRION (GROZNY) can only be compared with betrayal.
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 19 October 2012 14: 25
        -2
        But it was not Grachev who organized and implemented the New Year's assault on Grozny. He did not give such an order, do not distort. There are specific "comrades" who wanted to perform the "deflection". Kazantsev (Kom. SKVO), his deputy Troshev and a couple more, still alive. All are Heroes of Russia, by the way. And none of them had the courage to admit their guilt, they blamed everything on Grachev. And in 96, another beloved "comrade" General Lebed, with one stroke of the pen, lowered the army and deprived it of all victories, and Grachev remained to blame. Pasha was simply silent, did not make excuses and did not shift the pouring shit onto others, did not get into politics and took everything upon himself. Like a real officer.
        1. Lech e-mine
          Lech e-mine 19 October 2012 14: 39
          +5
          Do not fool me - WHY SUCH A RAPID IN CARRYING OUT THE OPERATION (THE SPEECH IS ABOUT THE LIFE OF PEOPLE). It is better to save the life of VANKA IVANOV than to congratulate EBN on the victory of democracy in Chechnya.
          1. IRBIS
            IRBIS 19 October 2012 14: 53
            0
            So we need to ask those who gave the order. And do not blame everything on the then MO, which did not voice such an order. Grachev was too comfortable a figure for all the dogs to be hanged on. But the "trench" generals stuck their tongues in the jo ... and hid until better times.
            You just do not need to draw information from the surface, there is more often woof..o floats. If you really want to understand a specific issue - take the trouble to get to the source before joining the general choir of detractors of everything and everything.
            1. Lech e-mine
              Lech e-mine 19 October 2012 15: 14
              +6
              Well, what does the MINISTER OF DEFENSE OBTAIN IN ANY BUSINESS? SO WEDDING GENERAL WHAT?
              I understand that GRACHEV is a bonded figure, but it’s purely human to send untrained GUYS under sniper and machine gun fire. SITTING IN KREMLIN is how to understand. (After all, these boys have MOTHER and may BE YOUNG wives with CHILDREN, because you also need to THINK about it)

              It's not about the shit that floats, but in the consequences of rash and hasty decisions (roughly speaking, NOT IN THE PROFESSIONALITY OF LISTED PERSONS).
              I consider EBN - mediocrity, grachev-mediocrity - they only work as shoemakers.
              1. bask
                bask 19 October 2012 16: 11
                +5
                Lyokha ... He didn’t just send untrained troops. But constantly in the midst of the offensive he gave orders for a ceasefire. And the militants quietly left the encirclement. + Weapon transfer to the militants 1992-1993 He’s all Pasha = Messedas .... Paptsanov is sorry -for this mu ...... and not for the brutally dead !!!
              2. mamba
                mamba 19 October 2012 16: 37
                +5
                I recall with what cynicism Grachev disowned our tankmen who had been captured by the Chechens on the eve of the 1st Chechen. He himself sent them to storm Grozny, gaining like mercenaries, peacefully. The mediocre planned pacification operation ended in defeat and shame. But there were no conclusions, no organizational decisions. And we again and again stepped on this rake.
  21. dmb
    dmb 19 October 2012 15: 21
    +8
    Well, let's start from the beginning. And the beginning was not in 93 and not in 94. It was in 91. Funny logic for some. In 93, he carried out the order, and this justifies him, but in 91, he did not follow the order, and this also justifies him. For such an oath, which Grachev gave his people, an empty piece of paper. For a normal defender of the Fatherland, there is only one Oath, and Grachev, the second time giving it, did not swear allegiance to the people, but to Yeltsin personally, which he did not hide in his interviews. True, in this case he is rather lackey than the defender of the Fatherland. For that matter, the transfer of weapons to the Dudaev bandits of him and Shaposhnikov is a personal merit. I know this not by hearsay. And the introduction of troops into Chechnya in 1994 was necessary. Who was there in 1992 does not doubt it at all. Yes, it was possible to strangle Dudaev and his gang with little blood in 92, but once there was power and property shared, including two scum who wrote the book.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay 19 October 2012 19: 05
      +4
      For DMB!
      You are absolutely right!!
      He served not the motherland, but the master!
      Apparently they exchanged a word even at the first meeting !!
      It is not for nothing that the EBN asked him that they say you will shoot at me ?? And you say that you’ll never be at you !!
      And pay attention, he notes there that 21 soldiers were killed, but they say it's nothing, but on the other side the darkness was not even considered !!!
      He refused to comply with the oral order under the USSR, but agreed at the request of the EBN and even figured out how to bungle everything !!
      Lackey !!!
  22. IRBIS
    IRBIS 19 October 2012 15: 31
    -5
    Units and subunits in which combat training was conducted properly (Special Forces, Airborne Forces, MP), losses were an order of magnitude lower than that of infantry. And officers from the commander of a regiment (division) and below organize and supervise combat training. Someone did not climb out of the ranges and shooting ranges, but someone just thumped in the offices. Here is the result. Of course, the easiest way to justify their failures is that the leadership - fucking ... would. And they are weaving, they say the soldiers are not trained with me, they are not ready for military operations! And who should have prepared them? MO, personally? Responsible for combat training personally company commander! And in the war they thumped like hell. I had to face, even the muzzle was beaten by drunks. Everything is not as clear as it seems.
    I do not protect anyone, I want not a sweeping judgment, a sense of common sense.
    1. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 19 October 2012 16: 07
      +2
      Yes, I agree, a lot depends on the PART COMMANDER. At the same time, a soldier must know why he must die in battle (for fucking democracy or for his children or his motherland)
    2. grizzlir
      grizzlir 19 October 2012 16: 29
      +1
      Irbis, take into account the fact that many untrained boys who fired from the force once fired, and this is not the fault of the commanders, but the state’s state at that time. There are no goryuchki, no spare parts, shells for training firing and those are absent, officers are not paid salaries, the army is incomplete. Regiment commanders reported to Moscow that the troops were not ready and not trained, and they were ordered forward. And how many soldiers they then did not serve for a month.
      1. IRBIS
        IRBIS 19 October 2012 17: 24
        +1
        Whoever wants is looking for opportunities. Who does not want - reasons. There have always been excuses. I served at the time and participated in these two "companies." It was just that at that time, many officers "hammered a bolt" at everything and began to gossip about shitty life under vodka. My unit (like the entire brigade) at that time plowed at the ranges and the shooting range, to which, due to lack of fuel, ran at a run (12 km in one direction). And I believe that if all the commanders were ready to eat the state rations, then they should be ready for war. And this is the easiest way - we are not ready and piz..ts! The war is canceled! Absurd! For this it is necessary to shoot in wartime! Kindergarten, not the army!
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay 19 October 2012 19: 13
          +2
          Quote: IRBIS
          Whoever wants is looking for opportunities. Who does not want - reasons. There have always been excuses. I served at the time and participated in these two "companies." It was just that at that time, many officers "hammered a bolt" at everything and began to gossip about shitty life under vodka. My unit (like the entire brigade) at that time plowed at the ranges and the shooting range, to which, due to lack of fuel, ran at a run (12 km in one direction). And I believe that if all the commanders were ready to eat the state rations, then they should be ready for war. And this is the easiest way - we are not ready and piz..ts! The war is canceled! Absurd! For this it is necessary to shoot in wartime! Kindergarten, not the army!

          I like your comments!
          I see that there were the same problems!
          We also had no one to shoot!
          I agree that the company commander is responsible for the preparation, but where did the battalion commander look, the campaign camp ??? Why didn’t anyone inspect the units ?? how did they inspect ??? came, drank, signed ?? The Minister of Defense is obliged to control everything and organize control !!
  23. lelikas
    lelikas 19 October 2012 15: 36
    0
    It looks like the work on "whitewashing" history is starting again. The image of a patriotic person is created, carrying out only the right and necessary orders.
    So right now, and the Nazis are being justified, they say that they carried out orders.
    Let the earth rest in peace, if he was allergic to him.
  24. Shkodnik65
    Shkodnik65 19 October 2012 16: 10
    0
    In fact, life cannot be divided into black and white. Grachev is bad, Pupkin is good. There is such a common expression: "everyone imagines himself to be a strategist seeing the battle from the side ..." Probably sitting in a comfortable armchair, with a warm apartment, it is easy to "bring to clean water" people who made decisions at that time. I also have an ambiguous attitude towards Grachev and I agree with Sasha 19871987, but you cannot compare him with Khrushchev: he was the head of state, and this one is like that, the minister. I think he still rooted for the army. But what I'm 100% sure of is that everything would have been much worse, or, if you like, unpredictable, if in its place was another bird named Swan.
    About the dead or good or nothing. He now has a different judge.
    1. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 19 October 2012 16: 19
      +1
      Sorry, I can’t agree. When I see our GUY CUT THROAT BEFORE THE CALLS AND HE SPEAKS WITH CRYPE - DO NOT KILL YOU GOOD AND KEEP IN RESPONSE TO ALL AKBAR AND ALREADY LAUGH FOR THIS - I HAVE ALREADY STARTED. IT SHOULD BE TALKED ON OUR RULES - HARD AND MERCY.
      1. max73
        max73 19 October 2012 18: 56
        +1
        and what, with the 4 general secretaries of the USSR, do you think they didn’t cut in Afghanistan? cut .... and how ....
        Shkodnik65 - you said it right. Well, although I, subjectively, agree with you ..
        Lech e-my: "little animals" - every Russian should poison, in the normal sense of the word - Russian .... so that they don't want to live here and could not ... and the Internet, which you are using now, is completely different field....
      2. Yarbay
        Yarbay 19 October 2012 19: 09
        +1
        Quote: Leha e-mine
        Sorry, I can’t agree. When I see our GUY CUT THROAT BEFORE THE CALLS AND HE SPEAKS WITH CRYPE - DO NOT KILL YOU GOOD AND KEEP IN RESPONSE TO ALL AKBAR AND ALREADY LAUGH FOR THIS - I HAVE ALREADY STARTED. IT SHOULD BE TALKED ON OUR RULES - HARD AND MERCY.

        the war must be fought cruelly and mercilessly against the enemy with weapons!
    2. Kyrgyz
      Kyrgyz 19 October 2012 21: 19
      0
      Quote: Shkodnik65
      In fact, life cannot be divided into black and white. Grachev is bad, Pupkin is good.

      Life is impossible, but Grachev is a bad, vile fittest
      Quote: Shkodnik65
      it would be much worse, or if you want, unpredictable if in its place there was another bird named Swan.

      It’s possible, but we won’t check, and this does not make Grachev good
      Quote: Shkodnik65
      About the dead or good or nothing. He now has a different judge.

      about the dead it is necessary as it is, but there is nothing good to say about it, maybe there was something, but everything got dirty
  25. vladimir64ss
    vladimir64ss 19 October 2012 16: 10
    0
    Drank-shot, shot-drank. That is their whole philosophy.
  26. Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 19 October 2012 16: 30
    +6
    When my father found out that tanks were being brought into Grozny without the support of infantry, he was speechless. And then he says that even during the Patriotic War, before the assault on the city, units were specially prepared. But Grachev is personnel, so he understood that the tanks would be burned. The children died on his conscience (although I think he didn’t have it). I put them on a par: Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Grachev ....
    1. IRBIS
      IRBIS 19 October 2012 18: 35
      -3
      During the Second World War, cities were taken (or tried to take) for the great holidays, and tanks were brought into the cities, and not in brigades - armies. During the storming of Berlin (1945) Georgy Konstantinovich (personnel) "thrust" almost 4 (four) tank armies into the city to speed up the process. About 1900 units of armored vehicles were lost, but the winners are not judged! And if the generals had succeeded in the adventurous assault on Grozny in 95, the losses would have been mentioned in passing, as inevitable. And the people would clap their hands dear and indestructible! In 2000, the losses were no less, but whoever discusses them - the city was taken. That's the whole alignment.
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 19 October 2012 22: 03
        0
        "Georgy Konstantinovich (personnel)" pushed "almost 4 (four) tank armies into the city to speed up the process."
        Without infantry. Yes? Are Germans like warriors like Georgians?
      2. lelikas
        lelikas 20 October 2012 14: 57
        0
        Well, here you are a little disingenuous, 1900 units of armored vehicles are the total losses of the entire Berlin operation, by the way, almost 1000 aircraft were lost there — are they something in the city without cover?
        Just there, the technology of urban battles, the interaction of tankers with assault groups, screens on tanks - that is, have already been developed all that was not during the storming of Grozny.
  27. yacht
    yacht 19 October 2012 18: 34
    +3
    The surprise is caused by people who are trying to whitewash Grachev, there are simply no words ...
  28. max73
    max73 19 October 2012 18: 45
    +1
    "Alfred Kokh and Pyotr Aven, Pavel Grachev's colleagues in the Russian government of the early - mid-1990s, interviewed the former defense minister for their book Gaidar's Revolution." ... rzhu ... kokhu with aven is not enough money - reporters closed up? ... when I saw the names in the first paragraph - it immediately became ridiculous ... I finished reading ... this is not an interview ... well, someone is on the fence ... unfortunately, this has become a practice too, news and some "opinions" are simply taken from third-party sources, which cannot be classified as objective ........
  29. v53993
    v53993 19 October 2012 20: 40
    +1
    [quote "Combat or such?" “What kind of combat?” Are you crazy? Let’s go. ” - "Good".]

    He is dum dum dum dum. I look, everything caught fire. Handsomely.

    How can I comment on this nonsense of a person in the rank of Airborne General. I respect the landing party, but not him.
  • Kyrgyz
    Kyrgyz 19 October 2012 21: 17
    +2
    We talked and our decision led to the fact that no matter what the order, do not spill blood and do not storm anything. They called their special forces, overlaid so that we would not be captured. Skokov (at that moment adviser to Yeltsin. - Forbes) came to us. I say: “Yur, tell Boris Nikolayevich that even if I have orders to storm you, I will not. Because blood will be shed
    Stunned what kind of guardian for the people, straight loss of loss