Military Review

KK Rokossovsky - Soviet-era Bagration

86
Mysterious at first glance discrepancies are connected with Rokossovsky's birthplace. In Soviet historiography, Rokossovsky’s birthplace indicates the city of Velikie Luki and the source of this information is his official autobiography.

The meticulous researchers of his biography, however, say that Konstantin Konstantinovich was born yet in Warsaw. This is evidenced by a candidate card filled by the 22 of April 1920 of the year for the position of commander of the cavalry regiment. An indirect circumstance confirming this version is the fact that Rokossovsky's father was a railroad worker and could not live with his family in Velikie Luki, the railway through which was allowed only two years after the birth of Konstantin Rokossovsky.

Where did the version with the Great Bows come from? Some historians associate this moment with pure ideology. The fact is that in 1945, Marshal Rokossovsky is honored with the second star of the Hero of the Soviet Union, and the status of Hero assumes the obligatory installation of his bronze bust in his hometown. Here difficulties arose: it was inconvenient to put a bust to Rokossovsky in Warsaw (in a state not officially belonging to the Soviet Union). So there were the Great Luke.

KK Rokossovsky - Soviet-era Bagration


Childhood Constantine can not be called cloudless. Having lost his father early, and soon his mother too, he, having not studied properly, was forced to work as a laborer for 15 years.

Since the beginning of the First World War, Rokossovsky volunteered to the 5 th Kargopol Dragoon regiment of the 5 th cavalry division of the 12 th army. Already at such a young age, he manifests himself to be a rather brave fighter and in fights near the city of Ponevezhim he heroically attacks the German art battery, for which the command introduces 3 degree to the St. George's Cross (Rokossovsky never received this award). Later, for taking the German guard's trench, Konstantin Konstantinovich is awarded the St. George Medal of the 4 degree. In 1916, for numerous partisan raids in the area of ​​the Western Dvina (where the Kargopol regiment was then strengthened), Rokossovsky received the St. George Medal of the 3 degree.

In the spring of 1917, Konstantin Rokossovsky was promoted to junior non-commissioned officer, and in December of the same year he joined the Red Guard and later the Red Army. Consisting of the Red Guard (Krasnopolsky Red Guard Cavalry Detachment), Rokossovsky helped suppress a number of counter-revolutionary uprisings in the Vologda region, in southern Russia (including Ukraine), and since July 1918, he has been fighting with the White Guards and the revolted Czechoslovakians in the Urals. In the same place, in the Urals, the squadron receives the name of the 1-th Ural name Volodarsky cavalry regiment, and Rokossovsky becomes the commander of the 1-th squadron of this regiment. For fights against Kolchak, Rokossovsky was twice awarded the first award of the young Soviet Republic - the Order of the Red Banner.

Rokossovsky joins the Bolshevik Party only in 1919 year.

Already in peacetime after the Civil War, Rokossovsky graduated from the Higher Cavalry Command Courses (G. K. Zhukov and A. I. Eremenko, future heroes of the Great Patriotic War and marshals of the Soviet Union, also attend lectures at the same time). Rokossovsky continued his studies in the 1929 year, having completed a refresher course for top management at the Academy. M. V. Frunze.

At the same time, Konstantin Konstantinovich served in the area of ​​the Chinese Eastern Railway, where a very unrestful atmosphere reigned then, and clashes with Chinese troops occasionally occurred.

From February 1932, Rokossovsky was transferred to the post of Commander-Commissioner of the 15-th Separate Kuban Cavalry Division (Dauria). In the 1935 year during the innovations in the Soviet army, Konstantin Rokossovsky received the personal title of division commander.

The dark clouds of repression of 1937 against the Soviet military command did not pass by Rokossovsky: in August of 1937, on a false denunciation, he was accused of having links with Japanese and Polish intelligence services. For three years Rokossovsky was under investigation, being in the inner prison of the NKVD in the Leningrad region (in the prison of the famous “Big House”). Unlike some other Soviet soldiers, Rokossovsky did not begin to stipulate himself and 22 March 1940 was released due to the termination of the case, rehabilitated. Konstantin Konstantinovich is reinstated in civil rights, in the Red Army and party posts. Soon (with the introduction of generals' posts in the Red Army) he was given the rank of major general.

After a period of health recovery, in November 1940, Rokossovsky was appointed commander of the 9 Mechanized Corps as part of the Kiev Military District, commanded by Zhukov. At the head of the corps, Rokossovsky was a little more than half a year, sufficient time for Zhukov to take a closer look at Konstantin Konstantinovich and make the following entry in his diary memoirs: “It’s difficult to name a more thorough, hard-working, hardworking and by and large gifted person”.

At the head of the same building, Rokossovsky was fatal for Russia 22 June 1941 of the year. Already 24 June Rokossovsky corps took the first battles on the Lutsk direction and in the military stories these days remained as memorable as the days of one of the largest tank battles. Lacking practically the most modern T-34 and KV vehicles at that time, covered with weak artillery support, Soviet tankers, nevertheless, in some areas heroically defended themselves from the superior and advancing forces of the German enemy (units of the 20th Panzer Division of the 9th first mechanized corps). Despite the fact that in these first days of the war, the days when our troops were forced to retreat under powerful German pressure, awards were given very sparingly (not to reward for retreat?), Many fighters and commanders of the 9th mechanized corps received military awards, and Rokossvsky himself is the fourth order of the Red Banner.

Wonderful leadership experience Konstantin Rokossovsky acquired in the battles for the defense of Moscow. Despite the fact that the troops of Rokossovsky's 16 Army first got into the Vyazemsky Cauldron, they nevertheless managed to get out of the encirclement and stood on the Volokolamsk direction, obeying strict orders “from above” - “Not one step back!”. Moscow at that tragic moment of the war really was in the balance of surrender and death, however, there is such a case related to this time: having received the Red Star correspondent, Rokossovsky wrote on his map truly prophetic words: “When fighting near Moscow, think of Berlin. Soviet troops will definitely be in Berlin. ”

During the battle of Moscow, Konstantin Rokossovsky was presented for awarding the Order of Lenin.

In March, 1942, Rokossovsky was seriously injured enough, - a fragment of a projectile touched the spine, lungs and liver. After healing, for two years (from 1942 to 1944 of the year), he takes command of the Bryansk, Don, Central, Belarusian fronts.

During the Battle of Stalingrad, the troops of the Don Front during the planned counter-offensive by Rokossov, together with the armies of the South-Western and Stalingrad fronts, broke through the defenses and managed to surround the group of General F. Paulus (consisting of 330 thousands). The entourage of Field Marshal Paulus’s army ended with a grandiose captivity (besides Field Marshal) of 24 generals, 2500 of German officers, 90 of thousands of ordinary soldiers. For this truly large-scale victory over the German troops, Rokossovsky receives the newly established Order of A. V. Suvorov.

Even more remarkable commanding abilities Konstantin Rokossovsky showed in the battle of Kursk during the repulse of the attack of the German troops and the defeat of the enemy Oryol grouping during the counteroffensive (after which he was successively awarded the rank of colonel-general and army general). The talent of the organizer of successful, and sometimes masterly original, performed by military special operations was later only confirmed in the actions of Konstantin Konstantinovich during Operation Bagration, in the East Prussian and East Pomeranian and Berlin operations. Therefore, it is not at all surprising that even before the end of the hostilities in Belarus Rokossovsky was given the Marshal's title, and I. F. Stalin in private conversations called Rokossovsky just as Bagration.

After the end of World War II, Rokossovsky was commander-in-chief of the Northern Group of Forces. Since 1949, Konstantin Rokossovsky, by personal appointment, JV Stalin becomes Minister of National Defense of Poland. In addition, Rokossovsky is a member of the Central Committee of the Polish Workers' Party and acts as deputy chairman of the Council of Ministers. From Poland, Konstantin Rokossovsky was recalled only after the death of Stalin.
In 1957, Rokossovsky was removed from all key posts and transferred to the post of commander of the Transcaucasian Military District. Nevertheless, a year later, Rokossovsky again returned to the post of deputy defense of the USSR and chief inspector. Konstantin Konstantinovich spent the last years of his life as an inspector general of the Ministry of Defense, investigating the delivery of unfinished naval ships.

Rokossovsky also worked in journalism, wrote articles in the Military Historical Journal, and one day before his death, he handed over a book of memoirs, Soldier's Duty, to print.

Practically all contemporaries of Konstantin Rokossovsky, noting the high level of his commanding talent, spoke about the high moral level of this person (which is characteristic, Rokossovsky’s personality assessments did not change depending on the “general line” of the party and the Soviet leadership, unlike some others). Zhukov for example).

In military history, Konstantin Rokossovsky will forever remain a talented commander: remarkable operations to defeat and liquidate the vast army of Paulus, the defense organized by him near Kursk, brilliant military operations in the Belorussian direction - thanks to this Rokossovsky became not only a hero of the Great Patriotic War, but also glorified the Russian weapon for the whole world.
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  1. Lantau
    Lantau 18 October 2012 08: 15
    +12
    In my opinion, the true Rokossovsky Marshal of Victory!
    1. Taratut
      Taratut 18 October 2012 09: 05
      -12
      The daughter once asked him why he was sleeping with a gun under his pillow.
      "More I them I won't let myself be alive "- answered Rokossovsky.
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 18 October 2012 15: 17
        +7
        Quote: Taratut
        answered Rokossovsky.

        if Taratut does not spit in a common pot with porridge, he spent the day in vain (apparently this is his credo, judging by his comments)
        1. Taratut
          Taratut 18 October 2012 18: 59
          +2
          I in no way diminish the merits of Rokossovsky. This is truly one of the best military leaders and a worthy person.
          Only now in the Stalinist dungeons they crushed his toes with a hammer, knocked out his teeth, broke his ribs. He remembered this for a lifetime. Like other future Marshal - Meretskov. He became practically disabled.
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 18 October 2012 19: 35
            0
            But Solzhenitsyn was cured of cancer in Stalin’s dungeons, how to live?
      2. GG2012
        GG2012 18 October 2012 15: 48
        +1
        Taratut,
        Hope you sleep with a gun under your pillow !!!
        Shalom, to you, (long curls at the temples), you are ours !!!
        1. Kibb
          Kibb 18 October 2012 21: 32
          0
          Ours, whose is this? And whose is yours personally? Are you also going to ask a neighbor in a trench while sitting in a trench?
    2. Lucky
      Lucky 18 October 2012 12: 45
      +3
      Rokossovsky is our pride!
      1. Ross
        Ross 18 October 2012 23: 21
        +1
        Rokossovsky is our pride!


        Rokossovsky is a great military talent. He was loved and appreciated by the troops for his attitude to people.
    3. GG2012
      GG2012 18 October 2012 15: 45
      -1
      Quote: Lantau

      In my opinion, the true Rokossovsky Marshal of Victory!

      Now, if from such people as Rokossovsky they would make Orthodox saints, the ROC would be in authority.
      Jewish homeless people by definition can not be Slavic saints !!!
      1. Kibb
        Kibb 18 October 2012 21: 04
        +2
        Listen, are you going to determine the size of sanctity, Rokosovsky Pole, Dovator Jew, you are stuck with your definitions
        1. GG2012
          GG2012 18 October 2012 22: 21
          0
          Quote: Kibb
          Listen, are you going to determine the size of holiness,

          Well, why am I right ...
          The public, including myself, will determine the size. And also you.
          Want to participate in a discussion?

          Are we with you? ... Or are you hamanuli? !!!
          1. Kibb
            Kibb 18 October 2012 22: 55
            +2
            It is YOU who are rude to people with hints of nationality, and we saw the so-called "public" at the weekend in Kiev
            Quote: GG2012
            Hope you sleep with a gun under your pillow !!!

            AND YOU?
            Quote: GG2012
            Want to participate in a discussion?

            I do not see the discussion. I see that YOU are not discussing but simply insulting a person on the basis of YOUR personal beliefs without giving any arguments
            I don’t understand how YOU said what applies to Rokosovsky
            What am I supposed to discuss with YOU?
            Quote: GG2012
            including me, will determine the size

            How, however, you can guess
        2. vyatom
          vyatom 14 December 2012 14: 47
          0
          The donator is a Belarusian, as far as I know.
  2. grizzlir
    grizzlir 18 October 2012 08: 26
    +10
    Rokossovsky’s personality assessments did not change depending on the “general line” of the party and the Soviet leadership
    Indeed, he never met negative information about Rokosovsky as a person and commander. He certainly had errors and failures in military affairs, but he knew how to correct them with minimal losses. And most importantly, he did not repeat them.
    1. Brother Sarych
      Brother Sarych 18 October 2012 09: 35
      +4
      In principle, yes, I have never seen anything bad about him ...
    2. Giuseppina
      Giuseppina 1 June 2020 18: 26
      0
      Rokososki piaceva a tante alle donne, sia perche è un generale patriottico Sia per le sue strategie e di aver vinto la guerra. Molti se lo ricordano come un uomo a modo, calmo, gentile
  3. Sakhalininsk
    Sakhalininsk 18 October 2012 08: 38
    +8
    Rokosovsky is one of the great galaxies of talented Soviet marshals of the Second World War, he was really a man of outstanding leadership talent. Our country was lucky that during the Second World War, he was one of many, and not the only one!
    1. Giuseppina
      Giuseppina 1 June 2020 18: 27
      0
      È il maresciallo Zhukov invece? ..
  4. borisst64
    borisst64 18 October 2012 09: 17
    +2
    One of the few military commanders who did not use swearing and a stick in his leadership.
  5. Skavron
    Skavron 18 October 2012 09: 31
    +4
    But what can I say ... it was not in vain that he was honored to command the parade!
  6. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 18 October 2012 09: 34
    +1
    Somehow, everything is written strange ...
    I wish Zhukov did not know Rokossovsky - nevertheless, he served under him, so there was time to take a closer look ...
    And why they forgot about the role of Rokossovsky in the conflict on the CER - he also distinguished himself ...
  7. apro
    apro 18 October 2012 10: 56
    +6
    Glory to Marshal KK Rokossovsky, the great commander and honest soldier of his country did not dare himself by participating in conspiracies and undercover fuss. That was who was to be exalted, not Zhukov.
    1. rkka
      rkka 18 October 2012 11: 49
      -7
      Quote: apro
      That's who it was necessary to exalt, not Zhukov.

      Rokosovsky was a Pole, which is probably why Stalin chose the mediocre Zhukov. And yes, Rokosovsky is our best commander!
      PS The article is rather weak, only water is better on Wiki.
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 18 October 2012 15: 19
        -2
        Quote: rkka
        Wiki is better

        laughing Wiki fans seen from afar laughing
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 18 October 2012 18: 05
          0
          oh, who else is there, who holds the wiki for a serious historical source?
          nu-nu bully .
      2. Giuseppina
        Giuseppina 1 June 2020 18: 42
        0
        Ma .. Ma scusa come puoi dire che il maresciallo Zhukov era un mediocre? Assaurdo! Quasi mi viene da chiederle, se lei per caso abbia fatto la grande guerra a fianco del maresciallo Zhukov. Sono dei giudizi che non possiamo dare o sapere. E chissà acquistara saranno gia morti. Ma al riguardo ti posso dire, testimonianze, ascoltato vodeo registrazioni di ex sooldati dell'armata rossa, ormai anziani, (si tratta di una video ripresa di 30 anni fa). Ex soldati raccontano di lui: Zhukov. fu tanto amato dai suoi soldati come uomo è come persona, era gentile con tutti soldato civili. Mentre Nel suo lavoro invece era spietato. Ma si trattava di fare la guerra mica di sciocchezze come noi qui a parlare di lui. Ebbene io sono devota a lui e npn sopporto sentire sciocchezze su Zhukov. Lui ha contribuito a salvare l'unione sovietica.
  8. str73
    str73 18 October 2012 11: 27
    +10
    Rokossovsky is one of the few personally brave and courageous people. When Khrushch invited him to write dirty tricks about I.V. Stalin, he refused to pour mud on his Supreme Commander-in-Chief - he respected too much, although at that moment he did not know what he was facing.
    1. Skavron
      Skavron 18 October 2012 12: 37
      +2
      Yes, and Tymoshenko did not write custom memoirs ...
    2. Jipo
      Jipo 18 October 2012 17: 58
      +7
      Rokossovsky was a real man, in prison or in the service, and despite his enormous popularity with the weaker sex, he did not leave his wife and family, one of the few generals after the war. He said - She was barefoot wearing a transmission to my prison, how can I do this. Stalin respected whole people who were not capable of betrayal, his appeal to him was Konstantin Konstantinich, not comrade. Rokossvsky is worth a lot.
      1. Konrad
        Konrad 22 October 2012 20: 04
        -2
        Quote: JIPO. Stalin respected whole people, not capable of betrayal, [/ quote

        Therefore, Rokossovsky and spent 3 years in the NKVD prison!
        1. vyatom
          vyatom 14 December 2012 14: 48
          0
          Quote: Konrad
          Therefore, Rokossovsky and spent 3 years in the NKVD prison!

          It was such a time.
        2. Giuseppina
          Giuseppina 1 June 2020 18: 43
          0
          Mi dispiace .. Rokososki, nonostante tutto non portava rancore con nessuno.
  9. Bigriver
    Bigriver 18 October 2012 13: 26
    +11
    Had a chance to read different memoirs. If we talk about the top command structure, then very clearly in many memoirs the attitude of our commanders (first of all) to Rokossovsky is seen. About Konev, Zhukov, somehow respectfully, but in passing, without emotion. But, when they touch Rokossovsky .., they speak very warmly, sincerely about him. Although the editors, I suppose, did not pull them for their language in Soviet times.
    Many are distinguished by the uniqueness of his approach to the preparation and conduct of operations.
    I got the feeling that he was an excellent educator. He was engaged in his commanders and commanders, letting their initiative manifest. Everywhere, from top to bottom in the troops subordinate to him, he possessed a powerful, but soft, human authority.
    By the way, and in the bid, too. He called only two military commanders by name and patronymic - Shaposhnikov and Rokossovsky.
    I met somewhere that "Bagration" is almost still taught / studied at West Point.
    Well, and yet, we must remember the real middle name of Russia's pride feel
    Konstantin Ksaverievich he!
    A deep bow to him ...
    1. GG2012
      GG2012 18 October 2012 16: 38
      +3
      Quote: BigRiver
      Konstantin Ksaverievich he!
      A deep bow to him ...

      100500 +++
      Nothing to add!
  10. igordok
    igordok 18 October 2012 13: 38
    +4
    Bust in Velikiye Luki
  11. xan
    xan 18 October 2012 14: 14
    +7
    Poles are proud of Napoleonic Poniatowski, but not Rokossovsky. Maybe because he did not return to Poland after the collapse of the tsarist army. And he is unlike the always showing off and screeching Poles. Our he is an imperial.
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 18 October 2012 15: 21
      +3
      Quote: xan
      but Rokossovsky no

      when Rokossovsky served in Poland, the Poles spoiled him a lot of nerves and blood.
      1. vyatom
        vyatom 14 December 2012 14: 51
        +1
        Rokossovsky is a Belarusian mother. So he is half Polish. Well, the Psheks were harmful when he was his Minister of Defense of Poland. He even said:
        In Poland I am Russian, and in Russia a Pole. But still a wonderful person. My grandfather, a veteran, said that his simple soldiers loved him.
    2. Beck
      Beck 18 October 2012 20: 30
      -6
      Probably the Poles do not accept Rokosovsky through no fault of his own.

      When the troops of Rokossovsky stood on the banks of the Vistula, opposite Warsaw. In Warsaw, the uprising of the Home Army began, which, unlike the Army of Ludova, was not led by the Communists, but was subordinate to the Polish government in exile. Rokosovsky himself would undoubtedly help his hometown. But Stalin, because of politics, banned any military operations to help the city that became part of it. Only a month later, when the uprising was suppressed, and the Craiova Army was defeated, military operations were launched to liberate Warsaw.

      Because of this standing on the other side and not helping Warsaw, the Poles probably do not accept Rokosovsky. Although the blame for this is politics and Stalin.
      1. Colonel
        Colonel 18 October 2012 22: 17
        +6
        Beck, you sing well from an English voice. Read "Soldier's Duty" at your leisure. There Rokossovsky himself answers questions about the uprising in Warsaw. As an argument you can give that it was Stalin who made him write like that.
        1. Beck
          Beck 19 October 2012 06: 55
          -2
          Quote: colonel
          There Rokossovsky himself answers questions about the uprising in Warsaw


          And what else could Rokossovsky write in his memoirs, having experience in the dungeons of the NKVD. So that in his declining years he will again go to the camera for distorting Soviet reality.

          Of course, direct Stalinist orders not to help the uprising, probably not. But I imagine Rokossovsky’s difficult state of mind.

          The rear sprawled, there was no supply? These are post-Soviet excuses. From the whole front, commanded by Rokossovsky, it was possible to provide three divisions that would be enough. In addition, at first the units of the Polish army, from the composition of the troops of Rokossovsky, were already in the suburbs of Warsaw and they were ordered to return again to the Vistula.

          Such a fact speaks of the vile policy of Stalin, who left the rebellious city to destruction. The Americans and the British decided to help with the supply of weapons, ammunition, and foodstuffs. To do this, they wanted to use their bomber aircraft. But for this, there was not enough fuel for the return planes. The allies asked Stalin to help. Airplanes fly over Warsaw, drop cargo, land behind the front line, at Soviet airfields, refuel and fly back. To load again for Warsaw. Given the power of the Allied long-range aviation, this would be effective help. Stalin refused.

          Stalin needed to destroy the Army Craiova, so that later no one could interfere with the planting of a communist regime in Poland.
          1. Beck
            Beck 19 October 2012 07: 36
            -4
            Quote: colonel
            Beck, you sing well with aglitsky voice


            Respected. If here on the site everyone would sing in unison, then what would listen to? How to talk to yourself, or what?

            And further. As you fall into unison, you are immediately English, you are American, you are Jewish, and you are alien. I, for example, tell you, because I’m not saying that your comments are songs written by the NKVD, the Stalinists, Communists, nationalists and other rubbish.

            I perceive your words as your PERSONAL position on this or that issue.
          2. Bigriver
            Bigriver 19 October 2012 14: 23
            +7
            BEK,
            You confuse causes with consequences.
            If AK so wanted to win, it was required of the minimum - to establish coordination with the forces that are nearby, and not in the UK.
            They, fulfilling the traditions of the Polish way, wanted to lay on evidence and necessity. They, without any coordination with the force that comes from the East, began their war. Is Stalin to blame for the operational and strategic insolvency of this war?
            And how do you imagine the assistance of the Home Army from the Red Army contrary to the desire of the first?
            1. Beck
              Beck 19 October 2012 16: 59
              -4
              Big Rover.

              I agree it was necessary to coordinate. If it were possible. Since the presence in Poland of a force that could resist the planting of communism was not at all part of Stalin's plans.

              But even if they didn’t agree, why not help an ally, essentially the same as France. And not the gentry, but the Polish government in exile. And this Polish government could, in principle, be located at the North Pole, there is no difference.

              How do you imagine the help of the Red Army AK? But how? Well, isn’t it obvious it's just that. It was not necessary to withdraw parts of the Polish army from the outskirts of Warsaw back beyond the Vistula. It was necessary to break into Warsaw at the speed of the previous offensive. AK soldiers would go towards breaking the Germans' resistance. There, in Warsaw, two forces fighting fascism would have united.
              1. Brother Sarych
                Brother Sarych 19 October 2012 17: 26
                +1
                They didn’t recall the units - in fact, the Germans pushed them out, because ours had no special forces there ...
                Some kind of stupid fantasies - parts of the AK, breaking the resistance of the Germans! AK was already preparing to raise its legs up ...
          3. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 19 October 2012 17: 30
            +1
            That's a dreamer ...
            Stalin was supposed to destroy our soldiers because of the lords, but he did not want to, an ugly type ...
            Still not trying to read historical literature?
      2. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 19 October 2012 17: 28
        -1
        Although the blame for this is politics and Stalin.
        Politics-yes, Stalin-no, did not begin to pave the way for London with the lives of our soldiers.
        1. Beck
          Beck 19 October 2012 18: 01
          -2
          Quote: There was a mammoth
          Politics-yes, Stalin-no, did not begin to pave the way for London with the lives of our soldiers.


          And here are London, Paris and some more. These are allies in the fight against fascism. The same as the Yugoslav partisans, like the poppies of the French. And in general, if Good is done, then it is done disinterestedly. If there is self-interest then this is no longer good, but Calculation. After all, how is it normal? They set you free, thank you and live as you can. No, it was necessary to force them to impose communism.

          Now, the North Koreans would have squeezed themselves into the Far East with the slogans of liberation from the power of the center and would have instilled the ideas of Juche to the Far Eastern Russians.
          1. Was mammoth
            Was mammoth 19 October 2012 18: 15
            +2
            Moreover. Few of ours in Poland were killed? And here such "friends" did not hesitate to shoot in the back
            1. Beck
              Beck 19 October 2012 18: 31
              -2
              Quote: There was a mammoth
              Moreover. Few of ours in Poland were killed? And here such "friends" did not hesitate to shoot in the back


              Now, if together Varashava would be released then they would not have been shot.
              1. Colonel
                Colonel 19 October 2012 20: 38
                +2
                Dear Beck, I will not argue with you about the NKVD, the Stalinists and Communists, I do not consider it necessary. I’ll try to explain the position regarding the English language. You repeat the arguments of our sworn allies without bothering with exquisite confirmations. Give only what was long voiced. For my arguments you have iron objections - Stalin, the NKVD, etc. The first thought was to object, to give the arguments of Rokossovsky, Zhukov and others. But then another thought spontaneously came up - why, why did you have to sacrifice the best troops in the world, so that the London government would rule in Poland? This is my personal fabrication. Regarding the Warsaw uprising, well, I agree with the people awarded the Stalinist regime for the war, namely Rokossovsky, Zhukov, Simonov, Karpov, Pikul. You are not in a position to challenge their arguments. This is such a personal position.
                1. Beck
                  Beck 19 October 2012 21: 09
                  -2
                  Colonel.

                  Somehow everything is unclear you laid out .. And your arguments are somehow vague.

                  Quote: colonel
                  Give only what was long voiced.


                  And that I have to bring this and voice it as unknown facts .. What should I invent. Or they rush to the archive of the Red Army and in ten years give you an answer with new, not announced data. All the controversy of the dispute is based on that and to apply certain known facts at the right time.

                  Quote: colonel
                  why, why did you have to sacrifice the best troops in the world, so that the London government would rule in Poland?


                  Here, in general, on the verge of hypocrisy. Under normal interstate relations, who cares what government this or that nation will live with. Purely human, it was necessary to help the included Warsaw. According to your logic, from what pantalyk America should have delivered free help to the USSR through the land-lens, because the USSR is a class enemy. What the hell did you need to open a second front by helping the class enemy defeat fascism first, so that the class enemy enslaves the countries of Eastern Europe.

                  Quote: colonel
                  Regarding the Warsaw uprising, well, I agree with the people awarded the Stalinist regime for the war, namely Rokossovsky, Zhukov, Simonov, Karpov, Pikul


                  Here it is not clear. What are you in solidarity with Rokossovsky and Zhukov? That they defeated fascism? So I also agree. The fact that Rokosovsky did not come to the aid of those who have become partisans - you are in this solidarity. So Rokosovsky did it not of his own free will. He was ordered to stop the advance. It is you who agree with Stalin. And the commander’s awards are not the awards of the Stalinist regime, it’s the gratitude of the people transmitted to them through the government. My father was awarded four military orders and four military medals, not anniversary. So this is the homeland awarded him, not the Stalinist regime.
                  1. Colonel
                    Colonel 19 October 2012 21: 34
                    +2
                    Yes, sir. You and I cannot understand each other. I leave the hypocrisy on your conscience. I will try to explain about solidarity. Neither you nor I were present at the discussed events. Therefore, we draw conclusions based on those sources that, in the opinion of the parties, are trustworthy. You have some sources (in English), I have others (in Russian). I respect your father's orders, but my grandfather did not receive "Glory" at the warehouse. And now we are enemies. Bows to your English speaking employers.
                    1. Beck
                      Beck 20 October 2012 10: 12
                      -1
                      Colonel.

                      What are English speakers? I do not speak English. Everything that I read was written by Russian, Soviet, Russian writers, publicists, and journalists.

                      And now the main thing. As it is so easy, only because of the discrepancy in discussion can one declare an opponent an ENEMY. In your city, in my city, in my house, in your house (multi-unit) there are many people who will disagree with me or with you in many ways. So that they are all ENEMIES. How will we live?

                      You are not my enemy; I cannot consider you an enemy. A person with a different way of thinking YES, but not an ENEMY. Think about the reasons why you can make enemies so easily.
                      1. Colonel
                        Colonel 20 October 2012 22: 26
                        +2
                        Beck.
                        In my attempts to defend the truth, I cited the names of the authors, after reading which I formed my opinion on the issue under discussion. I am curious to know which Russian, Soviet, Russian writers and in which books expressed points of view similar to yours. And the British have such "arguments" as yours, I have met more than once. Hence the "English-speaking employers" translated into Russian. And about agreement and disagreement "in many ways." Someone from the ancients said: "For complete happiness, a person needs to have a glorious Fatherland." You interfere with the glory of my Fatherland with dirt, and this is not the same thing as a dispute over the prices of gasoline or potatoes. I think you understand what I wanted to say. "A person with a different mindset."
                      2. Beck
                        Beck 21 October 2012 11: 37
                        -2
                        Quote: colonel
                        I am curious to know which Russian, Soviet, Russian writers and in which books expressed views similar to yours.


                        Enumerating writers will take a lot of space. I was brought up on Russian-language literature and formed it. My first and main book is Russian Primer. The authors of the war that I remember - Simonov, Grossman, Pikul, Solzhenitsyn, Zhukov, Rokosovsky, Vasilevsky and many more whom I do not remember, as well as many journalists. And I did not read the British at all. By the way, call me the English authors.

                        Quote: colonel
                        You interfere with the glory of my Fatherland with dirt,


                        This is what. Only that I wanted the soviet troops to help the city. So, by this principle of yours, the glory of the Fatherland was interfered with by dirt and Zhukov and Rokossovsky who were retreating in the first period of the Aoyna. And Simonov and Pikul wrote bitterly about the disorganization and stumbling of our troops in the first period of the war. Oh well.

                        And once again I ask you to give me your justification by which you determine your enemies.
                      3. Colonel
                        Colonel 21 October 2012 19: 22
                        +4
                        Don't go off topic. And here is the "first period of the war." I have already told you, for me the enemy, including the one who distorts and spits on the history of my country.
                        The rear sprawled, there was no supply? These are post-Soviet excuses. From the whole front, commanded by Rokossovsky, it was possible to provide three divisions that would be enough. In addition, at first the units of the Polish army, from the composition of the troops of Rokossovsky, were already in the suburbs of Warsaw and they were ordered to return again to the Vistula.
                        Such a fact speaks of the vile policy of Stalin, who left the rebellious city to destruction. The Americans and the British decided to help with the supply of weapons, ammunition, and foodstuffs. To do this, they wanted to use their bomber aircraft. But for this, there was not enough fuel for the return planes. The allies asked Stalin to help. Airplanes fly over Warsaw, drop cargo, land behind the front line, at Soviet airfields, refuel and fly back. To load again for Warsaw. Given the power of the Allied long-range aviation, this would be effective help. Stalin refused. Stalin needed to destroy the Army Craiova, so that later no one could interfere with the planting of a communist regime in Poland.

                        Which of the authors listed by you have read this. I believe the commander of the 1st Belorussian Front.
                        At one time, there were spiteful critics in the Western press who tried to accuse the troops of the 1st Belorussian Front, and of course me, as the commander, of the fact that we supposedly did not consciously support the Warsaw rebels, condemned them to death.
                        The depth of the Belarusian operation is unparalleled. On the right wing of the 1st Belorussian Front, Soviet troops advanced more than 600 kilometers. It cost a lot of strength and blood. To capture Warsaw with its powerful fortifications and numerous enemy garrison, it took time to replenish and prepare troops, pulling up the rear. But in those days we would do anything to support the rebels, to unite our efforts with them.
                        But those who pushed the Warsaw to revolt did not think about joining the approaching troops of the Soviet Union and the Polish army. They were afraid of it. They thought of something else - to seize power in the capital before the arrival of Soviet troops in Warsaw. So ordered the gentlemen from London.

                        Neither reduce nor add. If you read Rokossovsky ... and not Bivor Come on, there’s nothing to talk to you about.
                      4. Beck
                        Beck 21 October 2012 19: 48
                        -2
                        Quote: colonel
                        If you read Rokossovsky ... and not Bivor Come on, there’s nothing to talk to you about.


                        Nothing so nothing. No and no trial. Free will. There is a god, and there is a threshold. I do not know more proverbs.

                        And who is Beaver? What nations will be, than paper maral. What was messing about there. I do not know his foreign nickname.

                        And you did not answer on what grounds you choose your enemies.

                        Anyway.
      3. vyatom
        vyatom 14 December 2012 14: 54
        +1
        Quote: Beck
        Because of this standing on the other side and not helping Warsaw, the Poles probably do not accept Rokosovsky. Although the blame for this is politics and Stalin.

        Correctly minus. Why waste the lives of my soldiers leaving a tired army after Bagration’s operation to capture Warsaw. To seat the pro-English puppet government? Nah, nah and nah again. Comrade Rokossovsky did the right thing.
        1. Beck
          Beck 14 December 2012 18: 39
          -1
          Quote: vyatom
          Correctly minus. Why waste the lives of my soldiers leaving a tired army after Bagration’s operation to capture Warsaw. To seat the pro-English puppet government? Nah, nah and nah again. Comrade Rokossovsky did the right thing.


          Right minus, wrong, it's none of my business. People want to vote like that.

          But "wasting life", then I do not agree. Whether they fought against a common enemy, they were allies. To speak like you is cynicism and disrespect for an ally. The British could say the same - Why should we waste the lives of British sailors delivering military, industrial, food cargoes in PQ convoys to Arkhangelsk and Murmansk. And to tell the Americans, why the hell are we supplying Land Leads aid to the USSR for free?

          Rokossovsky’s troops were already on the outskirts of Vvrsava with the help of the rebellious Poles. Warsaw would be captured in two three days. But what kind of government would be in Poland. That nobody cares about this except the Polish people. It is only if you impose communism. The Americans in the Philippines, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea, France, and Belgium did not impose their regimes on anyone.

          And it was not Rokosovsky who did this, it was Stalin who ordered him. The Americans and the British wanted to help Warsaw with weapons, equipment, food, dropping all this from planes. But the radius of the aircraft was not enough. They asked Moscow for permission: after dropping cargo to Warsaw, land on Soviet territory. To refuel fly back. Thus, create an air bridge to help those who have become a part of it. Stalin refused. So, the problem was not the tiredness of the troops. And in Stalin's creeps, it is only possible to establish communism. The very communism that rotted in the second half of the 20th century.
  12. Nagaibak
    Nagaibak 18 October 2012 14: 57
    +5
    Rokossovsky wonderful commander! Here he is opposed in comments to Zhukov. I would not do that. He has his own place in military history. About Zhukov, a lot of things have been written especially recently. Up to the point that he was a coward. However, the 2 George Crosses received in the 1st World Zhukov speak for themselves.
    1. rkka
      rkka 18 October 2012 15: 10
      0
      Quote: Nagaibak
      Here he is opposed in comments to Zhukov. I would not do that. He has his own place in military history. About Zhukov, a lot of things have been written especially recently.

      It’s just that in the literature that I had to study, his entire leadership talent comes down to sending a huge mass of soldiers for slaughter. If you know the literature where his military genius is revealed, give a reference or a title, I will study it with great pleasure, and maybe I will change my mind. )
      1. Karlsonn
        Karlsonn 18 October 2012 15: 56
        +1
        Quote: rkka
        Just in the literature that I had to study

        See no luck with the books.
        Quote: rkka
        give a link or name,

        I can recommend a great site - http://iremember.ru/, to make up my mind, there are no uniform opinions, who is nice to Zhukov, someone is not, but what’s important is the opinion of people who fought with Zhukov, and not the bastards -Liberals who can shit everything that they reach.
        Here is a vivid reminder of the meeting with Zhukov I.I. regimental scout:
        ... Then in Ukraine there was a case when I almost died. George Konstantinovich Zhukov personally looked into our regiment headquarters once. How it happened: three cars arrived, one looked like an armored car, Zhukov was driving in it, and two such special cross-country passenger cars. There, all his servants arrived and accompanying staff officers. And he got out of the car, I did not yet know that it was Zhukov. He was wearing a gray protective cape, in boots and trousers. I went into the dugout with several officers to the regiment commander, they spent something there 15-20 for no more, then Zhukov went out and went to the cars, after which they drove off. Suddenly, after some literally five to seven minutes, although there were no signs, five German bombers flew into our skyscraper. And they began to bomb our dugout and everything around. I then dug myself a small trench, it was summer, covered it from the sun with the bottoms of German shell boxes. German bombers began to iron us terribly. I barely survived, I was crushed in the trench by a bomb explosion, and stunned, I got a strong concussion. And my comrade hit a bomb right in the trench, and threw scraps of clothes and shoes from there. The comrade himself was torn to pieces. After the bombing, these planes flew away, and more enemy aircraft did not appear on our sector of the front. For example, I had a small rank, but I considered that this air raid was a matter of German intelligence. In all likelihood, the Germans were hunting for Zhukov. After all, as soon as he left, airplanes immediately appeared. Out of the blue. And only after the bombing I found out who came to our regiment headquarters ....
        hi
        1. katran666
          katran666 18 October 2012 16: 07
          0
          for this example of yours there is a MASS of examples from the memories of both people with big stars on their epaulets and ordinary soldiers about Zhukov's bestial attitude to "cattle", his lordship, exorbitant vanity and arrogance.
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 18 October 2012 16: 11
            +1
            Quote: katran666
            for this example of yours there is a LOT of examples from memories

            go to the site and read a lot of memoirs of contemporaries who met with him personally and personally fought under his command, maybe then you stop talking nonsense like:

            Quote: katran666
            about Zhukov's bestial attitude to "cattle", his lordship, exorbitant pride and arrogance.
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 18 October 2012 16: 36
              +6
              Perhaps the most common myth of the Great Patriotic War is the myth of the bloodthirstiness of the leading Soviet military commanders of that period. They say they did not spare the last Russian soldier. "Women still give birth", etc. etc.
              But as soon as one digs deeper under any liberal myth, he immediately begins to burst at the seams. Yes, of course, the time was hard. The Red Army suffered huge losses, especially in the first two years of the war. Of course, there were errors of the Soviet command, excesses, underestimation of the enemy forces. It is foolish to deny all of the above.
              But there are no facts confirming that the same G.K. Zhukov, for example, "covered up the German trenches with the corpses of Soviet soldiers." Not a single order, nor in documents, nor in the memoirs of colleagues has said a word or ruthlessness in dealing with the living force of the Red Army. “Do not mislead people” - there are no such words in his orders. For clarity, the author allows himself to cite several orders of G.K. Zhukov, given to them at different times.
              _______________________________________________________________________
              “Failure to fulfill the tasks of the 49 Army, large losses in personnel are explained solely by the personal guilt of the division commanders, who are still grossly violating the instructions ... about massing artillery for a breakthrough ... Parts of the 49 Army criminally carry out frontal attacks ... incurring huge losses ... If you want to be left in your posts, I demand:
              Stop criminal attacks in the forehead of the village.
              Stop attacks in the forehead on the heights with good shelling.
              To advance only along ravines, forests, and poorly shelled areas. ”
              Order of January 27 1942
              “The elementary truth obliges: before you abandon the tanks, you need to suppress the fire system ... You have been repeatedly instructed about this, but apparently these basic truths are still not understood, and the tanks continue to die without any benefit. Throwing tanks without suppressing the enemy’s fire system I consider an adventure. The perpetrators of the death of tanks, tankers, of course, need to be judged. "
              Instructions to the commander of the 50 Army
              “To capture the settlements by specially created assault squads ... To entrust the capture of each stronghold to a special strike detachment, specially selected, organized and put together, if necessary, with preliminary rehearsal in the rear of your troops.”
              Zhukov's order to create assault groups
              From the commanders of the 43, 49, 50 and 5 armies of the 22 March Zhukov demanded: "the exact execution of my order to capture enemy strongholds with special assault troops in order to avoid unnecessary losses."
              “The armies of the Western Front have recently created a completely unacceptable attitude towards the preservation of personnel. Commanders, commanders of formations and units, organizing a battle, sending people to carry out combat missions, are not responsible enough to save soldiers and commanders ... Especially bad attitude to saving people exists in the 50, 10 armies ... Burn with a hot iron irresponsible attitude towards saving people, no matter where it comes from. ”
              Zhukov's special order of March 15 1942g.
              “In vain do you think that success is achieved by human meat, success is achieved by the art of conducting the belt, they fight by skill, and not by people's lives.”
              Appeal to the commander of the 49 Army I. G. Zakharkin
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 18 October 2012 16: 43
                +4
                Pay attention, dear reader, with what sense of saving G.K.Zhukov relates to the manpower of the Soviet army. Now compare this with what is attributed to him by modern unfortunate historians, directors, journalists and other “prisoners of conscience”.
                Of course, orders are one thing, you think, practice is another thing. Of course, in the conditions of real hostilities, when, at times, local commanders had only a few fractions of a minute to think over the order, many directives simply could not be implemented in principle.
                We must understand that there was the bloodiest war in the history of mankind, and Zhukov, as an experienced military commander, was entrusted with the most difficult and most critical sections of the front. We got a very strong, trained and well-armed adversary, for which, in fact, the whole of Europe worked.
                But, despite all the difficulties, Georgy Konstantinovich successfully fulfilled the duties assigned to him, for which he can rightly be called a great commander of the ΧΧ century.

                For even more persuasiveness, I allow myself to give the orders of another “bloodsucker” of that period - I.V. Stalin.
                Historian A.B. Martirosyan in his book "Stalin and the Great Patriotic War" cites excerpts from the big analytical speech of Dzhugashvili at the 14-17 April 1940 of the year (!) Held at the Central Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of the Red Army on summarizing the experience of the Red Army’s composition on the experience of fighting in the war against Finland, from which one can also make conclusion about the attitude of the Supreme Commander in relation to the lives of soldiers and officers:
                “We, comrades, boasted that our army was invincible, that we could throw all our hats, there were no shortages. In practice, such an army does not and never will be. This prevented our army from immediately realizing its shortcomings and rebuilding ...
                ... This boasting must be ended once and for all. We need to hammer into our people the rules that an invincible army does not exist ... We must learn not only how to advance, but also to retreat.
                ... What prevented our command personnel from waging the war in Finland in a new way, not in the manner of the Civil War, but in a new way? In my opinion, the cult of the tradition and experience of the Civil War prevented ... It was the cult of the tradition and experience of the Civil War, which must be put to an end, that prevented our command personnel from immediately reorganizing themselves in a new way, on the rails of modern war.
                ... And what is modern warfare? An interesting question, what does it require? It requires mass artillery. In modern warfare, artillery is a god ... Whoever wants to reorganize in a new modern way, he must understand, artillery decides the fate of the war, mass artillery. And so the talk that you need to shoot at the target, and not at the squares, to spare shells - this is utter stupidity that can ruin the whole thing. If you need to give 400 — 500 shells per day to break the rear of the enemy, break the front line of the enemy so that he is not calm, so he can not sleep, you need not to spare shells and ammunition.
                The second is aviation, mass aviation ... And he who wants to wage a war in a modern way and win a modern war cannot say that bombs should be saved. Nonsense, comrades, you need to give more bombs to the enemy in order to stun him, turn upside down his city, then we will achieve victory. More shells, more ammunition to give, less people will be lost. If you spare the ammo and shells, there will be more losses. You have to choose. Give more shells and ammunition, spare your army, save strength, give a minimum of dead, or spare bombs, shells.
                1. Karlsonn
                  Karlsonn 18 October 2012 16: 45
                  +4
                  Further tanks, the third, also decisive, we need massive tanks, not hundreds, but thousands. Armored tanks are all. If the tanks are thick-skinned, they will perform miracles with our artillery, with our infantry. It is necessary to give more shells and ammunition to the enemy, to spare their people, to preserve the strength of the army.
                  Mortars, fourth, there is no modern war without mortars, mass mortars. All corps, all companies, battalions, regiments must have mortars 6-inch necessarily, 8-inch. This is a terrible need for modern warfare. These are very effective mortars and very cheap artillery. Wonderful thing mortar. Do not regret mine! Pity your people. If you spare the bombs and shells - do not spare the people, fewer people will be. If you want our war to be with little blood, do not spare the mines. ”
                  You see, dear reader, before the war, Stalin demanded that his subordinates regret the manpower of his own army. Stalin all the time called on the generals to protect people, and then equipment and ammunition. Similarly G.K. Zhukov, he was categorically against the tactics of introducing fights during the Civil War.
                  There was a special directive on the essence of the artillery attack. In this document, Stalin directly called crime the use of infantry for attacks without a preliminary, thorough and lengthy artillery attack!
                  The telegram of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief Stalin, sent in 21 hours, 50 minutes, is very characteristic in this regard. 27 on May 1942 to the command and military council of the South-Western Front: “Over the past 4 days, the Headquarters has received more and more requests from you for armaments, for the submission of new divisions and tank formations from the Headquarters reserves. Keep in mind that the Stavka has no new divisions ready for battle, that these divisions are raw, untrained, and throwing them at the front now means delivering easy prey to the enemy. Keep in mind that our armament resources are limited, and keep in mind that besides your front, we also have other fronts.
                  Isn’t it time for you to learn how to fight with little blood, as the Germans do? It is necessary to fight not by number, but by skill. If you do not learn how to better manage your troops, you will not have enough of all the weapons produced in the country. Consider all this if you want to ever learn how to defeat the enemy, and not deliver him an easy victory. Otherwise, the weapons you receive from the Headquarters will pass into the hands of the enemy, as is now happening. ”

                  Ps: And how did it happen that the two, without exaggeration, the most outstanding commanders of the 20 century became "bloodthirsty killers"?
                  _____________________________________________________________________
                  Bibliography:
                  1. Isaev A. Myths and the truth about Marshal Zhukov. M., 2010;
                  2. Gareev M.A. Generals of Victory and their military heritage. M., 2004;
                  3. A.B. Martirosyan "Stalin and the Great Patriotic War", 2008 .;
                  4. V. Medinsky “War”, 2010
                  1. rkka
                    rkka 18 October 2012 17: 38
                    0
                    Commander's Report # 2:

                    "1. The enemy, having captured Krasnoe Selo, is conducting frenzied attacks on Pulkovo, in the direction of Ligovo. Another focus to the south-east of Slutsk is the Fedorovskoye region. From this area, the enemy is leading an offensive with eight regiments in a general direction to the city of Pushkin, with the aim of connecting in the Pushkin-Pulkovo area.

                    2. On the remaining sectors of the front, the situation is the same ... Astanin's southern group, consisting of four divisions, is taking measures to break out of the encirclement.

                    3. We organize active actions in all sectors of the front. We have high hopes for you. I have everything for now. "

                    Please rate from these reports who is a professional.

                    The first has a dry list of the enemy with all the details - a tank or infantry division, in full or not, where there may be leftovers and reserves, what is the behavior of the enemy, what are the results of daytime battles with possible losses of the enemy and where is his front line.

                    The second - complete ignorance of who is at war with him. The only number is
                    “Eight regiments” is somehow illiterate and, moreover, refers to a completely different sector of the front. The shelves themselves do not attack. They do this in divisions. A professional would say: "The enemy is leading an offensive in parts of three (four) divisions (division numbers) by joint forces of up to 8 regiments." Instead of information about the enemy in the report, some incoherent babble about the "rabid" Germans who attack this commander.

                    I don’t know, maybe you have a different impression, but I have just that.

                    Now about these military leaders. The first is the commander of the 54th Army, Marshal G. I. Kulik. The second is the commander of the Leningrad Front, General of the Army G.K. Zhukov.
                    1. Karlsonn
                      Karlsonn 18 October 2012 18: 13
                      +2
                      pulling quotes, it is not known where, from the context - is not an argument.
                      without any unnecessary thoughts - did you serve?

                      What are the criteria for evaluating the professionalism of a commander?
                      judging by your comments, Stalin was fully appointed Zhukov to command the defense of Leningrad? Do you know that after the troops of the Leningrad Front learned about Zhukov’s appointment, the morale of the troops rose, can you be convinced of this by reading any memoirs, or do you also hold the fighters of the Leningrad Front for boobies?
                      1. rkka
                        rkka 18 October 2012 20: 41
                        0
                        Quote: Karlsonn
                        without any unnecessary thoughts - did you serve?

                        No, I didn't. I had a military department at the medical university. You can call me contemptuously "Tie")
                    2. Kibb
                      Kibb 18 October 2012 23: 46
                      +1
                      rkka you forgive me, but I can pull such quotes about any military leader, any army in the world, any time ... I hate patriotism and therefore usually try to not participate in potentially political disputes. Zhukov is certainly not ideal, but time was like that ...
                      The fact that you brought these not orders - people are people, they sometimes just want to talk ... or gossip ... BUT it is far from the fact that this conversation really took place and time ... It is extremely doubtful that Zhukov and Kulik talked in such "warm, friendly atmosphere".
                      War is not always a gift, but there is simply no comparison with WWII.
                      Rokosovsky, in my opinion, deserves to be remembered as a SILVER and I end my discussion in this
                  2. Skavron
                    Skavron 18 October 2012 20: 57
                    0
                    And where are the authors of Zhukovsky contemporaries here ???
                  3. vyatom
                    vyatom 14 December 2012 15: 00
                    0
                    My friend, you’re just an encyclopedia. Plus for the true reflection of reality in the war. Respect.
            2. katran666
              katran666 18 October 2012 16: 42
              -2
              you see, dear, there is no need for me to read the contemporaries you have cited, for I have already read a lot of both laudatory and sharply negative ones. there is no need to conduct a dialogue like "stop talking nonsense", so I will give a couple of examples
              1. Witness director Grigory Chukhrai: "I was distracted for a while. Suddenly there was some noise. I look around and freeze: Zhukov and Konev grabbed each other and shake them by the breasts. We rushed to separate them." ("Red Star" 19.9. 1995)
              2 Marshal of the Soviet Union Eremenko Andrey Ivanovich in January 1943 - Lieutenant General, commander of the Stalingrad Front. Diary entry dated January 19, 1943: "Zhukov, this usurper and rude, treated me very badly, just not humanly. He trampled everyone on his way ... I already worked with Comrade Zhukov, I know him as flaky. This is a terrible and narrow-minded person. The highest grade is a careerist. " ("VIZH" No 5, 1994, p. 19)
              3 The situation at Zhukov's headquarters was vividly described by the artist Boris Sichkin, a friend and drinking companion of the "victory marshal": "The attendants consisted of males with the rank of major general. They were outright lackeys: they cleaned the marshal's boots, set the table and cleaned In a word, they looked like helpful dogs. When they listened to the orders of the marshal, they bent to the floor. It was disgusting to look at these people who had lost all respect for themselves ... For the marshal, these lackeys were something like decorative dogs ... More precisely , they were dogs by nature "(B. Sichkin. I'm from Odessa, hello ... SPb., 1996, p. 79)
              4 Artist Boris Sichkin reports: “I remember very well the banquet on the occasion of the transfer of command of our front from the hands of Rokossovsky to Zhukov. Our ensemble performed at this evening. There were two powerful armchairs on the dais, on which both marshals were seated ... The ensemble worked as a soloist of the choir Yasha Muchnik ... After his speech Zhukov called him over and, having seated him next to him in the place of Marshal Rokossovsky, would not let him go all evening. Yasha timidly tried to say something to the Marshal, but Zhukov reassured Yasha:
              - Do not worry, sit still, let him walk.
              Jewish soldier Yasha Muchnik spent the whole evening on the throne instead of Rokossovsky with the famous Marshal Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov "(B. Sichkin. I am from Odessa, hello ... pp. 75-76).
              1. Karlsonn
                Karlsonn 18 October 2012 16: 55
                +3
                Quote: katran666
                1. Witness Director Grigory Chukhrai:

                what?

                Quote: katran666
                2 Marshal of the Soviet Union Andrei Ivanovich Eremenko

                if they don’t have a relationship, it doesn’t prove anything.

                Quote: katran666
                3 The situation at Zhukov’s headquarters was clearly described by artist Boris Sichkin

                that after the war around the marshal, hangers-on began to rub, is this an indication of how he did not spare the soldier during the war?

                Quote: katran666
                4 Says artist Boris Sichkin

                Quote: katran666
                Jewish soldier Yasha Muchnik spent the whole evening on the throne instead of Rokossovsky

                What's bad about it?


                I ask you to note all these delights are dated to the first half of the 90's, when only the lazy one didn’t pour mud on the motherland!
                It’s a pity, it’s a pity that the Marshal of Victory cannot answer from the grave to his slanderers, in truth - LIVING MOSCOWS Bark at DEAD LION.
                1. rkka
                  rkka 18 October 2012 17: 41
                  -5
                  “As a clerk at the army headquarters,” said one retiree, “I witnessed such a scene. Before the offensive, Marshal Zhukov came to us. He saw a group of generals, beckoned one of them with his finger. "Who it?" - asks the tall major general, the commander of a division - one of the best in the army. He reports: Major General such and such. "You are not a general, but a bag of shit!" - the marshal barked at him. He insulted the military commander for no reason - in front of everyone. I was in a bad mood, it was necessary to frustrate someone. I ripped it off on the first one I came across ... ")
                  1. Karlsonn
                    Karlsonn 18 October 2012 18: 14
                    0
                    link to the source, please.
                    1. rkka
                      rkka 18 October 2012 18: 27
                      +2
                      Mukhin, Yuri Ignatievich Para bellum!
                      Of course, I am skeptical of Mukhin’s conspiracy theory, but there are a lot of other useful information in his writings.
                      and thank you very much for the link, we will study.
                      1. Karlsonn
                        Karlsonn 18 October 2012 19: 39
                        +1
                        Quote: rkka
                        Thank you very much for the link, we will study.

                        Always please, I will be glad if it comes in handy, + 1.
                        I’m not very Mukhin, you read and read like an adequate intelligent person, and then ONCE and Jews are to blame for everything, from the beginning I thought - well, it doesn’t happen to anyone, but when reading his fourth book everything became clear.
                      2. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 18 October 2012 20: 59
                        +2
                        For rkka. Mukhin makes a strange impression to say the least. Like all the canals we have are fools and traitors, etc.
              2. rkka
                rkka 18 October 2012 17: 38
                0
                Below I give a transcript of a conversation between two Soviet commanders, who were instructed by the Headquarters to jointly destroy the grouping of German troops opposing them both. Discussing this issue, they report to each other what they know about their common enemy. Try to assess their professionalism by their knowledge of this business. Let's call them # 1 and # 2.


                Commander's Report # 1:

                “The situation is as follows:

                1. During the last 2-3 days I have been fighting on my left flank in the Voronovo area, that is, on the left flank of the group that is going to join you. The enemy has concentrated the following divisions against my main grouping in the last 2-3 days. I will pass it on to the regiments, because I want to know if the other regiments are against your front. I'll start on the right: the 1th regiment of the 424th infantry division, which had not previously been present on my front, appeared in the area of ​​Workers' settlement No. 126. There are no other regiments of this division. Either they are in Shlisselburg, or along the Neva and act to the west against you, or in reserve in the Shlisselburg area.

                2. In the area of ​​Sinyavino and to the south, the 20th Motorized Division operates, along with the tanks of the 12th Panzer Division.

                3. The 21st Infantry Division was deployed on the Sigolovo-Turyshkino front. Together with her, the 5th Panzer Division is operating in the same area in the direction of Slavyanka-Voronovo. Over the past 3 days, there has been an intensified transfer of motorized parts and tanks from the Lyuban area to Shipki-Turyshkino-Sologubovka. Today at 16.30, tanks (more than 50) were observed moving in the Sologubovka area to Sigolovo and northeast of Turyshkino. In addition, heavy artillery appeared in the same area. Today I had a battle for the capture of Voronovo. It was a private operation for the upcoming offensive, but it was not possible to solve this problem. True, insignificant connections were at work here. I did this deliberately, as I did not want to involve large forces in this operation: now I am replenishing units.

                The front line occupied by the 54th Army is as follows: Lipka-Rabochiy settlement No. 8- Rabochiy settlement No. 7-Estonian settlement-Tortolovo-Myshkino-Porechye-Mikhalevo.

                The enemy is concentrating a fairly strong group on my right flank. I look forward to tomorrow his transition to the offensive. I have taken measures to repel the offensive, I think to repulse his attacks and immediately go on the counterattack. Over the past 3-4 days, we destroyed at least 70 tanks ... In the second half of September 13 there was a strong battle in the Gorny Khandorovo area, where 28 tanks and an infantry battalion were destroyed, but the enemy all the time, especially today, began to show great activity. All".
                1. Karlsonn
                  Karlsonn 18 October 2012 18: 16
                  +2
                  link to the source, please.

                  The jackals at the dead lion gathered
                  And joyfully howled in the desert for life:
                  “Now comes a new stage
                  Everything is now in the claws of our paws. ”

                  But a herd passed by buffalo -
                  Nobody could fill up without a lion ...
                  A herd of gazelles rushed through the dust
                  They couldn’t catch anything again ...
                  Then the struggle between jackals began,
                  Who is to blame and who will lead them then.

                  A dead lion lay under the sun
                  Only a jackal is not afraid of this
                  And in nature, a jackal is not a lion,
                  Shakalya breed did not come out and become.

                  And a gang of jackals followed the tiger -
                  Such a shakalya is already evident fate
                  Always eat from someone else's table ...

                  And everyone here will read the meaning of fables:
                  The dead lion was the king - even once ...
                  But the dead are worthy of respect!
                  Jackal - only smiles of contempt ...
              3. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 18 October 2012 20: 57
                0
                For Katran666, the opinion of Eremenko is especially valuable — that is truly a genius.
                1. katran666
                  katran666 18 October 2012 21: 55
                  +1
                  Dear, actually you are writing about the Marshal of the USSR !!! I don’t think he’s a genius either, but I don’t think it’s worth speaking dismissively about him ... you didn’t understand - I specially quoted the statements of DIFFERENT people - from a soldier to a marshal (believe me, I can indicate 100500 pages of such quotes) - this all characterizes the nature of Zhukov and his deeds, which people could not keep to themselves. and now rummage and try to find something like that about Rokossovsky?
          2. Taratut
            Taratut 18 October 2012 19: 07
            0
            It is with Stalingrad and Marshal Zhukov that one of the pilot Popkov's most unpleasant and humiliating memories of the war is associated (Popkov is the prototype of the Maestro from the film "Only Old Men Go to Battle."
            - That's when the signatures were collected in order to rehabilitate Zhukov, I refused, - Vitaly Ivanovich sincerely and very childishly nods in his chair, - not because I do not consider him a great commander, but because of his personal ...
            Personal is as follows. On August 5, the Germans bombed Stalingrad. The city turned into one huge fire, mixed with oil from the broken storage facilities, water burned in the Volga. Making five to six sorties a day, losing one after another the best pilots, our air forces were not able to cover the city and the crossings. The superiority of the Germans in the air was overwhelming. Fighters of the XNUMXth Guards fought with desperate courage, often rushing alone to the links of German bombers, marching under the guise of "experts" (as the Germans called their best aces-fighters). And they died in unequal air battles.
            Popkov was one of the most skilled, brave and lucky pilots. Having shot down already seven enemy vehicles near Stalingrad, he knew his own worth. Therefore, when on August 26, 1942 he was summoned to the Headquarters among the three other best fighter pilots of the front, he was not surprised. “Probably, the authorities decided to arrange a banquet, feed and reward, and then again into battle,” Sergeant Popkov decided with his inherent optimism.
            But there were no tables with front-line delicacies or awards in the dugout, but no less than thirty generals gathered. The pilots were put on the edge, and when Zhukov and Malenkov entered, they pushed out in the front row.
            - Why do pilots fight poorly? - shouted the marshal, adding a mat, which he could not do without, - are we shooting a few bastards? How many cowards and traitors did you personally shoot? - Zhukov poked a finger at Popkova.
            “Comrade Marshal, we have enough Germans.” We do not shoot ours, ”the pilot boldly answered.
            - And here I am shooting cowards and traitors!
            Into their yard ...
            The pilots were taken to the courtyard. Submachine gunners appeared.
            Vitaly Ivanovich remembers the fear and helplessness of the absurdity of what is happening. And a keen sense of humiliation. After a minute, three were actually shot: they brought anonymous, indifferent to the doom Russian peasants in tunics with no insignia and shot among dust and brick fragments.
            A body dragged. Whom? For what? Never afraid of either strangers or his own, Vitaliy Popkov was stunned by what had happened.
            - This is how they will treat you, - Zhukov grinned terribly, - if you fight badly, From this day on, no longer count combat missions, shot down planes, do not encourage them, do not present them for titles and awards. Free ... "
            1. Karlsonn
              Karlsonn 18 October 2012 19: 45
              +1
              Quote: Taratut
              they brought anonymous, indifferent to the doom Russian peasants in tunics without insignia and shot

              As a result, as I understand it, the pilots were not shot?
              Who exactly then was shot? maybe really cowards and alarmists?
              I can cite the statistics of those executed near Stalingrad, reading from which it immediately becomes clear that in the location of the Headquarters they did not shoot anonymous and helpless every day.
        2. Jipo
          Jipo 18 October 2012 18: 33
          +3
          The site is interesting, thanks for the link, but I want to say that these testimonies of ordinary people were largely embellished by their youth at that time, many cases became legendary in their memories - this is their pride. There have been no people of adults who have withstood the main load of the Second World War, they either stayed like my grandfather, born in 1908 there or could not convey the truth to us (time did not allow). I think the true role of Zhukov in the war will never be really appreciated, there will always be a bias here or there, but as a person, I think he can be appreciated and not all his actions now look beautiful, both during the war and after. I also think that Mr. Rezun, also far from respect from many readers, is not a great task to collect all the gossip, and one-sided and issue a verdict, no matter how you say it - to the Winner.
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 18 October 2012 19: 51
            0
            Quote: JIPO
            The site is interesting, thanks for the link, but I want to say that these are testimonies of ordinary people

            You're welcome hi , many thanks should be said to Drabkin and those who gave themselves the trouble to interview veterans, and yet every day they are becoming less and less ...
            The story of this man, personally made a very strong impression on me:

            http://iremember.ru/razvedchiki/ivanov-mstislav-borisovich.html
      2. dmb
        dmb 18 October 2012 16: 00
        +2
        To paraphrase Professor Preobrazhensky: "And don't read democratic newspapers before dinner." I will repeat myself. Stalin was such as to send "talentless" Zhukov to the most difficult sectors of the front. Do not be like idiots screaming that the main goal of both was the senseless extermination of the Russian people. As for literature, read Vasilevsky and the same Rokossovsky, whose talents no one belittles.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 18 October 2012 17: 00
          0
          Zhukov's special order of March 15 1942g.
          “In vain do you think that success is achieved by human meat, success is achieved by the art of conducting the belt, they fight by skill, and not by people's lives.” drinks
        2. rkka
          rkka 18 October 2012 17: 43
          0
          in the chapter on the defense of Moscow Zhukov gives the following episode:


          "AND. V. Stalin called me to the phone:

          - Do you know that Dedovsk is busy?

          - No, Comrade Stalin, it is unknown.

          The Supreme was not slow to speak irritatedly about this: “The commander must know what is being done at the front.” And he ordered to immediately leave for the place in order to personally organize a counterattack and return Dedovsk.

          I tried to object, saying that it was hardly prudent to leave the front headquarters in such a tense atmosphere.

          - Nothing, we will somehow manage here, but leave Sokolovsky for this time for yourself.

          Here Zhukov is right, although Stalin sent him to the troops of the front that Zhukov commanded, and Zhukov himself took Govorov out of his 5th army, the devil knows where, like a weaver to convey best practices. And further. Pay attention to who commanded the Western Front. Stalin says
          "We can do it," not "Sokolovsky can do it."

          - And finally
          Zhukov again has no idea of ​​the enemy on his front. He does not imagine which German divisions are fighting the 5th and 16th armies subordinate to him.
          1. Karlsonn
            Karlsonn 18 October 2012 18: 29
            +2
            again:
            in your opinion, Stalin and the Headquarters continuously appointed Zhukov throughout the war to responsible posts? And you have d'Artagnan, who would certainly have done everything right?
            The fact that you have read liberal materials, where the marshal is poured with slop is a one-sided, biased view, I suggested that you read the texts of interviews with veterans about Zhukov, where there are negative assessments (in the minority), to which I received quite a d'Artagnan's answer:
            Quote: katran666
            I don’t need to read your contemporaries

            if the opinion of veterans does not mean anything to you, then what else is there to talk about?
            I wish you good luck in further studying the liberal-anti-Soviet-anti-Russian yellow press hi .
      3. Jipo
        Jipo 18 October 2012 18: 22
        -1
        He began to be wary about Zhukov 15 years ago, when, in addition to his memoirs, the works of other generals and not only ours began to come across. I did not like a lot of false information in these three volumes and attributing to myself the merits of other commanders, from Moscow and Leningrad, and ending in 44 and 45 years. I especially remember that Stalin did not ask K.K.R. to leave. for the final consideration of the "Bagration" plan, and the plan was discussed collectively, Zhukov, including Rokossovsky, was somewhere on the side, by no means the main developer (Zhukov tried to say here that it was not without him and he was the main one, as in Stalingrad and near Kursk). It is clear that Georgy Konstantinich was not the last person in the Army, he was Stalin's First Deputy, but his functions most often consisted of pressure on the generals, their control, accelerating the pace of operations, which is called general management of operations, but in reality, in many cases he He did not lead anything, considering that if everything works out, then he is a hero, and if not, then the fault is not on him. This is how they become commanders who have not lost a single battle, others have lost. I was especially struck by his memories of the beginning of the war, in my youth I took everything at face value, but when the idea came that this man led the entire army, as the chief of the General Staff, and at the same time did not say a word about his role and mistakes, my respect is where- it began to disappear.
        1. Karlsonn
          Karlsonn 18 October 2012 19: 54
          +2
          Unfortunately, official Soviet historiography was more of a propaganda than a scientific one, so you need to read everything you can reach to develop your point of view.
      4. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 18 October 2012 20: 56
        +2
        For the Red Army. Less you need to read Suvorov and other types of corpses are filled up, etc. Believe me, it will become easier. Learn more about the battles that he led you this is enough. And Stalin didn’t fling himself with awards and ranks during the war.
      5. Beck
        Beck 18 October 2012 21: 06
        -1
        The leadership talent of Zhukov is undeniable. But he fought more in number. Performing such and such actions, by such a date at any cost.

        Berlin offensive operation. Konev was the first to go to the southern outskirts of Berlin. Konev offered to surround Berlin and starve the German garrison. But the Soviet craving for reports for the holidays (May 1) forced Zhukov to take Berlin by storm.

        In the Berlin operation was laid 304 thousand soldiers' lives. Those lives that have already enjoyed the imminent end of the war.

        The USA in two theaters of war during the 5 years of the war lost less than 300 thousand of its soldiers. Because the generals cherished their soldiers. They fought with technology. Only after a thorough art. infantry were preparing for and air strikes.
        1. Alekseev
          Alekseev 30 November 2012 15: 20
          +1
          Do not lie!
          Losses (irretrievable) in the Berlin strategic offensive operation among Zhukov’s troops (in the main direction) are 37,61 thousand, Konev-13,07 thousand, Rokossovsky-27,58 thousand. As you can see, they depend not only on the front commanders.
          Together with the wounded and sick, yes, more than 352 thousand soldiers and officers.
          And what a thorough artillery preparation was also airstrikes!
          Before talking about the great (with all their shortcomings and advantages), you need to give yourself the trouble to at least pick up the topic and not make people laugh.
          1. Beck
            Beck 30 November 2012 18: 28
            -2
            Quote: Alekseev
            Do not lie!


            Actually, there is discussion here, and not squabble and swara. He could have called the wrong number, could not KNOW. But that doesn’t mean lying.

            Soviet data at all times sinned with their unreliability. We still do not know the exact figure of our losses in the Second World War. And the Berlin operation has a variety of numbers. I admit that I made a typo. 300 thousand is a total loss, but the required 80 thousand is also not a pound of raisins.
  13. Bigriver
    Bigriver 18 October 2012 15: 26
    +1
    Zhukov had a slightly different measure of responsibility throughout the war. He proved himself perfectly as a representative of the Stavka at the fronts, coordinator of actions of the fronts and ..., an excellent crisis manager.
    Comparison of course sins recourse But, there was one in the Reich - their comrade Walter Model. The main fireman of the Wehrmacht.
    Unfortunately, I don’t remember which of our general staff officers recalled: //
    Already after the victory, Stalin at some festive event, in an informal setting, heard in a military conversation a discussion of the qualities of Zhukov and Rokossovsky. He considered it necessary to intervene:
    - Still, I believe that Comrade Zhukov .., fought NOT WORSE!
  14. katran666
    katran666 18 October 2012 16: 04
    +3
    when I read something like that about Rokosovsky, I am once again convinced how wrong are those people who say "such was the time." this is how tovarischi like Zhukov are always justified, attributing their mistakes and crimes to THIS TIME. Rokosovsky was in prison for 3 years, and he did not sign anything ... I recall that the same genius Tukhachevsky signed EVERYTHING on the second or third DAY ... yes, there were people ...
    1. arches
      arches 18 October 2012 17: 00
      0
      Yes, we love excuses like "Time beat like that!" So any bestiality can be justified - the end justifies the means.
    2. wax
      wax 18 October 2012 18: 59
      0
      And Gorbatov A.V. didn’t sign anything. Released. Then he was the first commandant of Berlin on the personal orders of Stalin. But the units stood.
  15. rkka
    rkka 18 October 2012 17: 46
    -1
    Apparently, Zhukov rarely focused on what exactly was happening on the fronts that he commanded and Stalin often commanded for him, Zhukov was simply his mouthpiece. Here, for example, is a telegram from Stalin to Zhukov, which dates back to 1944:

    “I must indicate to you that I have entrusted you with the task of coordinating the actions of the 1st and 2nd Ukrainian fronts, and meanwhile, from your report today it is clear that despite the severity of the situation, you are not sufficiently aware of the situation: you are not aware of the enemy’s occupation Hilki and Nova Bula; You do not know Konev’s decision to use 5 Guards. kk. and Rotmistrov’s tank corps with the goal of destroying the enemy who had broken through to Shenderovka. The manpower and resources on the left wing of the 1st UV and on the right wing of the 2nd Ukrainian Front are enough to eliminate the enemy’s breakthrough and destroy the Korsun group. I demand that you pay the main attention to the fulfillment of this task. ”(TsAMO RF, f.148a, op. 3963, d.158, pp. 32-33).
    1. Karlsonn
      Karlsonn 18 October 2012 18: 31
      +2
      Quote: rkka
      Apparently, Zhukov rarely focused on what exactly is happening on the fronts.

      oh, a trump call fellow Zhukov finally commanded the globe.


      Quote: rkka
      “I must indicate to you that I entrusted you with the task of coordinating actions


      link to the book or text of the article where you got it - to the studio wink .
    2. Bigriver
      Bigriver 19 October 2012 17: 01
      0
      rkka
      “... apparently Zhukov rarely knew what was happening on the fronts, which he commanded and Stalin often commanded for him, Zhukov was just his mouthpiece. For example, Stalin's telegram to Zhukov, dating back to 1944:
      "I must point out to you that I have entrusted you with the task of coordinating the actions of the 1st and 2nd Ukrainian fronts."

      You are now re-singing "THOUGHTS" by Yura Mukhin. And what's the point in that? Are you from his brotherhood?
      Do you have an opinion based on your sources? Secondary .., tertiary? ..
      Be careful, be careful laughing
      With his face.
  16. wax
    wax 18 October 2012 19: 03
    +2
    http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/golovanov_ae/23.html
    Rokossovsky in operation Bagration through the eyes of Chief Air Marshal Golovanov.
    Rokossovsky is eternal glory.
  17. Salut71
    Salut71 18 October 2012 19: 45
    +1
    My most respected Soviet Commander! Great as a Warrior and as a Man. After the death of Stalin, one of the few who never poured mud on him.
    A deep bow and Eternal memory to the Real Marshal!
  18. Region71
    Region71 18 October 2012 20: 33
    +1
    Look, there are three nests armed with cannons and no less than a platoon of machine gunners and several machine guns. You need at least 3 tanks to suppress these points. Lelyushenko answers: There is a tank. And Rokossovsky: What will he do alone? Lelyushenko: He will, and give me binoculars to look at. I watched. Rokossovsky asks me: Can you? I think I will be able to comrade. general. Lelyushenko supported. We received an order from two commanders of the 16th Army Rokossovsky and the commander of the 30th Army, General Lelyushenko. And they rushed off at maximum speed. The machine gun is also ready at the platoon. They walked towards the right nest, and only caught up with the first nest, sharply turned the tank towards the nest and full throttle to the nest. my tank climbed onto the cannon, and destroyed other structures and hovered on the cannon itself, sat on the bottom. But I did it in jerks to catch at least one caterpillar and jump out of the nest. It turned out well, once again our tank made a U-turn on the nest, I was convinced that everything was disfigured. We moved in a straight line through the snow to a shallow planting of the forest. On the outskirts of the forest, we moved to the second nest at maximum speed. All the buildings and the cannon were crushed on the move. Here the Germans fired several shots at the tank, but at the front of the tank. And after rapprochement with us, they abandoned the position, and left along the trench. We began to reach the third nest, here it was harder for us. Before reaching 100 meters before him, there was a forest clearing and there was also a cannon. From "NP" Rokossovsky it was not noticeable, and when I got there, I saw that I was putting the side of the tank to that gun. But when I left the nest of the third cannon, the distant cannon set fire to my tank, not far from the forest. Our tank began to burn, we lay in the snow under the protection of the tank, shells in the tank immediately began to explode. The time came to jerk the fuel in the tank, we had to crawl away. We decided to crawl away under the bullets of machine guns and machine guns, otherwise the Germans might destroy us. But suddenly a tank came from Rokossovsky's "NP", and we climbed into it and drove to the "NP".

    When we arrived at the "NP" after the battle, the commander of the 16th Army, General Rokossovsky and the commander of the 30th Army, General Lelyushenko, greeted us in different ways. Rokossovsky praised me and said in a fatherly way: Well done! And we were shod in boots, he noticed and asked: How are your legs? We answered: Nothing, just do not feel. There were also officers there, and he ordered us to be sent to the infirmary. And General Lelyushenko swears, took out a pistol: I'll shoot you! The tank lost, put its side, crushed the third nest and suddenly put its side. And Rokossovsky told him: Dmitry Danilovich there, in the depths of the forest in the village there was still more than one cannon, calm down, but look well. And what the mechanic saw and did everything correctly in the battle assignment. He maneuvered quickly, well dodged enemy shells. You yourself admired it too. I personally mark and say "Well done"! I did the job perfectly, but the fact that the tank burned down was a fool with him. The tank justified itself, count three guns and crushed several machine guns, and defeated more than a dozen enemy with a machine gun. I told you Dmitry Danilovich that you need 3-4 tanks to comb 2 km deep into the forest and the village. Calm down, and you go to the army infirmary.

    Above I wrote that the 58th tank. the division transferred to the 30th Army and back to the 16th Army, then I already studied the character of Leliushenko, his ability, his heroism, perseverance, courage of all the generals, he was the most resourceful in battles and an excellent warrior, but too hot! Rokossovsky was smart, calm, intelligent and knew how to manage troops. For all the time in the battles of the defense of Moscow, I have driven a tank with him more than once and have not heard more than once swearing from soldiers and officers. To everyone on "you", without shouting and swearing.

    This is from the memories of Rokosovsky veteran of the Second World War Zhezhel Methodius Petrovich.