Military Review

Do Iveco need in Russia?

236
Italian armored vehicles may be useless toy
Do Iveco need in Russia?


From the very beginning, the unexpected and rapidly developing “romance” of the Russian Ministry of Defense with wheeled armored vehicles of the Italian association Iveco was surprising to many. Apparently, the true "spring" of the action, which led to the unprecedented hitherto penetration of the western company into the Russian defense market and even immediately on a significant scale, will become public much later.

Today, it makes sense to try to assess the practical value of wheeled armored vehicles manufactured by Iveco for the needs of Russia, leaving aside questions about the very feasibility of importing Western-made armored vehicles.

Iveco armor goes to us

As is known, the first appearance of Iveco armored vehicles in Russia dates back to 2009, when KamAZ Inc., with the assistance of Rostekhnologii (co-owner of KamAZ), at its own expense purchased and imported into the country for testing two light Iveco M65E19WMM armored vehicles , also known as LMV (Light Multirole Vehicle - lightweight multi-purpose machine), and in the Italian army referred to as Lince (“Lynx”, the English name Lynx is used in a number of countries).

““ Lynx ”is unsuitable for use in a light armored personnel carrier and off-road vehicle assigned to it in Russia”
It is unlikely that the initiative of KamAZ and Russian Technologies was inconsistent with the Russian top military-political circles, as there were immediately reports of plans to adopt the Iveco LMV into service with the Russian army. In the 2010 year, two more LMVs were bought, and at the end of 2010, 10 machines that were assembled at the beginning of the next year at KamAZ and also received the official name “Lynx” in Russia with the corresponding Russian inscription on the radiator. These 10 machines were used for military trials.

However, later KamAZ in relation to the “Lynx” was out of work - the initiative was taken over by the recently established Oboronprom under the Ministry of Defense of Russia, which united the joint-stock military repair plants. At the end of 2010, the Ministry of Defense signed with Iveco an agreement on the creation of a joint venture for the assembly of LMV machines in Russia, the assembly capacity was created at the part of Oboronservis OJSC 173 Automotive Repair Plant in Voronezh. According to the agreement, starting from 2011, it is planned to assemble 1775 vehicles for the Russian army under the “Lynx” brand for five years in Voronezh. The first 57 will be released this year. Further planned: 194 armored car - in 2013-m, 248 machines - in 2014-m and 285 units - in 2015-m. Localization of production in Voronezh in 2012 is 10 percent, and by 2014 should be supposedly reduced to 50 percent.

At the same time, the cost of the “Lynx” collected in Voronezh is more than 20 million rubles, and the whole program of purchasing 1775 units was estimated at more than 30 billions. However, earlier the Ministry of Defense called the number of needs for "Lynx" called up to 3700 units. In July of this year, it became known that the Minister of Defense sent an application to the government to increase the volume of LMV purchases from 2013 to 2015 in the year from 727 to 3000 units worth 50 billion rubles. Thus, the receipt of machines of this type is expected in volumes unprecedented for the post-Soviet period, and Russia will turn into the largest LMV operator in the world, surpassing even Italy itself (where these machines have so far been purchased by 1260).

Having got a taste, the Russian military department drew attention to the heavier armored vehicles Iveco, produced by the latter within the framework of the CIO consortium with another well-known Italian company - Oto Melara. We are talking about a family of vehicles with an 8x8 wheel arrangement, led by an armored vehicle Centauro B1 (``) with 105-mm tank the gun. Oto Melara in the consortium is responsible for the creation and production of weapons systems for military vehicles.

In December 2010, the ministers of defense of the Russian Federation and Italy signed a protocol regarding the receipt by Russia of two Centauro armored vehicles and two Freccia (“Strela”) armored personnel carriers developed for their development. In May, two standard-made vehicles arrived in Novorossiysk from the presence of the Italian army - Centauro with the 2012-mm cannon and the Freccia BTR with the tower with the 105-mm cannon, and in August new modified export samples were delivered to Centauro with the 25 -mm cannon and Freccia with turret with 120-mm cannon.

A spokesman for Oto Melara in May 2012 of the year said that Russia could acquire in Italy a license to manufacture Centauro wheeled tanks. Following the results of the tests, which will fail at the end of 2012, conclusions will be made about the prospect of creating a joint venture for the licensed release of Centauro at one of the Russian defense plants. A high-ranking representative of Rosoboronexport OJSC (which is part of Russian Technologies and now also deals with the import of military property) confirmed that the Centauro tests are being carried out for possible future purchase of a license for its production. One of the possible sites for the production of this technology, he called KamAZ.

Thus, as can be judged, the project of organizing the assembly in Russia of the Centauro and Freccia family machines is being lobbied by Russian Technologies, in peak, carried out in the military industrial complex by the promising domestic medium-sized family of wheeled armored vehicles with the code Boomerang.

Glitter and poverty "Lynx"

All the above data provoked heated discussions in the media and near-war circles, although for the most part they were emotional in nature, especially since the Russian Ministry of Defense was not in a hurry to clarify the nature of their needs for the purchase of these machines are certainly specific types and specific Italian manufacturer.

It is already known that the mass purchase of the same lightweight armored vehicles "Lynx" is caused by the plans of the military department to create in the Russian army several so-called light brigades that will be completely moved on light armored vehicles. Existing air assault brigades are planned to be used as the basis for these brigades. In this regard, with the 2010 of the year, the staff and methods of applying such an light brigade based on the 56-th separate air assault brigade deployed in Kamyshin in the Volgograd region are being developed. In the absence of so far, the LMV 56-I brigade was temporarily armed with conventional off-road vehicles, the UAZ-315108 and the UAZ-3152 "Gusar". In addition, the armored vehicles "Lynx" are supposed to be put into the created reconnaissance brigades (which are planned to form as many as ten), special brigades, and also units of the Airborne Forces.

Thus, in the Russian army, “Lynx” has a slightly strange role in the essence of the “linear” armored vehicle and a de facto kind of light armored personnel carrier (apparently, two vehicles must carry the detachment). This is despite the fact that initially the LMV was created by Iveco as a reconnaissance and patrol, patrol, communications and command-staff (commander) machine, a kind of niche armored jeep. It is in this capacity that LMVs are mainly used in the armies of Italy, Great Britain and nine other countries that have acquired them. It is significant that in the British army these armored vehicles, called Panther, are officially designated as CLV (Command and Liaison Vehicle - vehicle control and communication).

In Russian sources, the main advantage of LMV is a good minozaschischennost. Indeed, the machine is specially designed to provide a very high for its mass (up to 6,5 t) level of protection according to the NATO standard STANAG 4569 - the level of 2 (crew survival when undermining under the bottom or wheel of the charge with the TNT equivalent of TNT kg). Thus, the LMV is essentially a lightweight version of an MRAP-class machine with enhanced anti-mine and anti-explosive protection. This was the innovation of the Iveco product at the time of its birth a decade ago. However, the other side of the minzaprotection is significant for a machine of such a small capacity (maximum five people) weight, which limits the mobility and maneuverability of the LMV outside roads.

For those tasks and applications for which LMV was originally created, this restriction of permeability is not so significant - like all similar MRAP machines, it is intended for use mainly on highways. After all, the threat from mines and, moreover, to pre-laid land mines exists mainly on constantly used roads, outside of such roads this danger is minimal. LMV is essentially a lightweight and inexpensive version of the patrol and patrol and convoy type MRAP vehicles for use as part of road convoys and is purchased as a “cheap MRAP” by small European countries for its Afghan and peacekeeping contingents.

And then the question arises about the feasibility of using this machine as the main means of transporting personnel of the light and reconnaissance brigades of the Russian army. Do these teams have to move exclusively on the highway? No, as can be judged, domestic military planners intend to use the same light brigades as high-mobility formations capable of conducting combat operations on a broad front, acting in small groups, making flanks and seeps, using raid tactics, being involved as advanced and reconnaissance units. .

It is obvious that all of these actions provide for precisely good mobility outside the highways and in open areas. At the same time, the threat from mines and land mines for such actions is minimal. So why do light crews need “Lynx” type vehicles whose mobility and throughput is limited in favor of mine protection? If light brigades are supposed to be used on highways and for regular counterinsurgency actions, then why do we need an inferior lightweight MRAP: then these brigades can be put on full-fledged MRAP vehicles with good capacity and even higher security - types are being conducted in Russia on a broad front.

It is absolutely clear that for armament of light and reconnaissance brigades within the framework of their chosen concept of use, it is more expedient to use vehicles with good mobility, even to the detriment of mine protection, that is, cars like the GAZ-2330 family “Tigr”, “Scorpion” developed by Corporation "Protection" and the like.

It is noteworthy that the Western special forces, even in Afghanistan, use mainly special light unarmored open "assault vehicles", for which high mobility, good visibility and ease of use of weapons are considered the best defense. Similarly, improvised, unprotected commercial vehicle types form the basis of military equipment in the notorious “Toyotas” wars, another example of which we recently saw in Libya. In flat-desert terrain, light bezbronnaya technology due to its high mobility is very often more efficient armored.

Here, however, it is appropriate to ask the question of the validity of the very concept of light brigades for the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, all the more due to the transfer to jeeps and light armored vehicles of assault landing brigades. Where is our military department supposed to wage “Toyotas wars” in Russian conditions? With which opponent? By and large, in Russia neither the terrain, nor the climate, nor the character and level of potential adversaries contribute to the effective use of such forces.

In the light of the above, it is not surprising that the first reviews of the brief experience in operating the Lynx vehicles in the army, according to leaking information, turned out to be quite disappointing. Iveco is criticized for insufficient capacity (the inconvenience of placing five people transported, a small amount of space for equipment and ammunition), insufficient off-road traffic, etc. Thus, the criticism demonstrates precisely the inability of the “Lynx” to be used in the light armored personnel carrier assigned to it in Russia and an off-road vehicle - which clearly shows that the Russian military has made a large, costly mistake by choosing LMV for this role.

It’s time to finally admit that LMV is essentially a highway armored jeep, but, paradoxically, in this capacity it is not particularly needed in Russia, the same domestic Tiger is already successfully taking root in this role in our army. Purchases of Iveco LMV armored vehicles and the contract with Iveco obviously do not correspond to the real needs of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, and in the conditions of our limited resources they look useless luxury. For the Russian army, LMV is a low-value toy with a limited scope.

This circumstance is a logical outcome of the hasty purchase of Italian machines without a serious analysis of the needs for this type of equipment, without a thorough analysis of their characteristics and without making serious and qualified comparison with other samples (including foreign ones). That is, to put it simply, this is the result of ignoring the procurement of elementary competitive procedures, which are used in the procurement practice of even the most underdeveloped countries. A wide international tender could save huge taxpayers' money and, perhaps, give our army a much better and more suitable machine than Iveco LMV, not to mention the possibility of putting tough demands on participating foreign companies in partnership with Russian manufacturers, localization, offset and so on. Further. In the current state of affairs, the Iveco group can calmly ignore all such requirements, approaching Russia as an underdeveloped third world country who honors for the happiness of getting a screwdriver assembly of machinery from vehicle sets.

Trail "Centaur"

Even more bizarre than the addiction to Iveco LMV, the heightened interest of a certain part of the Russian leadership in the Italian Centauro and Freccia cars looks like. It is not clear why these very samples of modern wheeled armored vehicles with the formula 8х8 - Italy (represented by Iveco and CIO) have never been an authoritative leader in the production of such machines as a priority, and these Italian samples, unlike the LMV, have not at all accompanied broad export successes. Centauro was, in addition to the Italian army, purchased only by Spain and a small party Oman (the latter acquired the version with the 120-mm gun), and Freccia did not receive any foreign orders at all, despite participating in a number of tenders. The design of the chassis of these machines (especially Freccia) is of particular interest to domestic developers, but in general does not contain anything outstanding.

The thesis of the "political" inaccessibility of similar machines with the 8x8 formula of other Western developers is clearly unreliable, especially in the light of the not so long ago known interest of the Russian Defense Ministry in the AMV BTR of the Finnish Patria group. It is obvious that, as in the case of the LMV machine, the cooperation agreement on Centauro and Freccia was accepted with complete disregard for any possible competitive procedures.

Initially, the Centauro 23-ton wheeled combat vehicle was developed in 80 as a mobile tank destroyer for the Italian army, but ultimately became one of the types of medium armored vehicles gaining popularity in the world in recent years (intermediate in mass between tanks and tracked infantry fighting vehicles on the one hand, and light wheeled armored personnel carriers and armored vehicles - on the other). The most significant adherents of medium armored vehicles since the late nineties are the US Armed Forces, which have adopted the Stryker armored personnel carrier with the 8X8 wheel formula and a whole range of vehicles based on it (including MGS with an 105-mm cannon) and medium-sized “Striker” brigades equipped with this technique, protruding expeditionary multifunctional compounds of increased mobility.

Similar trends have come to Russia, where the Ministry of Defense also plans to create medium-sized brigades equipped with wheeled armored personnel carriers and other armored vehicles with the wheel formula 8х8. The main candidate for equipping these brigades is the multipurpose Boomerang wheeled platform developed by GAZ Group in the weight class up to 25 tons, which is expected to be ready no earlier than 2015 of the year. So far, in the absence of anything else, the concept of an average brigade is driven around the 23-th separate motorized rifle brigade in Samara, which received the equipment of the conventional BTR-80.

On the whole, the concept of the medium brigade of the “strayer” type, that is, fully equipped with machines on the chassis of the wheeled armored personnel carrier, including wheeled vehicles with heavy cannon armament, with regard to the Russian army looks even more controversial than the concept of light brigades.

In fact, Centauro and other similar medium wheeled vehicles were created for countries and theaters of war, where the main method of operational transfer is to move on the highway (rather than transfer by rail) or where the nature of the terrain allows extensive use of wheeled vehicles off-road. Thus, the most suitable areas for the use of an average brigade are terrain with either a well-developed network of highways, or, conversely, with a relatively poorly developed network of highways, but with a complete absence of railways and a flat-desert or steppe landscape. In the second case, we are talking about the Middle East region (and specifically, Iraq), where the American “strayker” brigades had a successful combat debut.

In Russia, we see the opposite picture - the main method of operational troop transfer is railways, which are the main means of communication in the country (and do not require special restrictions on the transport of vehicles, either by mass or by type of running gear). The density of highways is relatively small, and at the same time the distances are too great for transporting equipment on them under their own power. Finally, off-road reigns pretty often near the desperate roads, and winter, spring and autumn thaws last a total of up to eight months a year, even in the middle lane. It is difficult to understand how it is possible to effectively use the compounds, built entirely on a fairly heavy wheeled armored vehicles and even with the "wheeled tanks." The patency of wheeled armored vehicles inevitably inferior to that of tanks and tracked vehicles. The aero-transport ability of combined-arms equipment also does not find a place in the practice of troop transportation and redeployment within Russia. But the expeditionary tasks of deployment in overseas desert theaters to the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation do not seem to stand.

It was not by chance that, at an unofficial level, the only possible scenario for the use of Russian counterparts of the “Striker” brigades was the fighting in the steppes of Kazakhstan against the Taliban from Afghanistan who were rushing through. Not to mention the complete fictitiousness of such a picture: obviously, there is no way to smash the Taliban in the Kazakh steppes in simpler ways. Simple tanks probably won't do. And apparently, combat vehicles armed with anti-tank guns with a caliber 105 – 125 of millimeters are the most necessary in the fight against the Taliban beggars.

Thus, the need for an urgent adoption by the Russian Land Forces of a wheeled armored vehicle with heavy armament is apparently not a priority, and in the light of this interest in Centauro (and even less so that it can be assembled in Russia) does not have a deep rationale and is very artificial and far-fetched. As a potential interest for the developers to study (first of all, the undercarriage) - maybe, but here, it seems, the task of familiarizing them with these machines by the military department is not set. Yes, and Italians are unlikely to allow such a serious study without more or less firm guarantees of purchasing lots of cars, as well as their licensed production or any serious localization of industrial assembly.

Centauro vehicles themselves, developed by 30 years ago, do not look like the last word of technology, having a very conservative design with a habitable two-seat turret - in fact, the stage for advanced tank design has already been passed. The characteristics of the 105-mm and 120-mm guns of the lowered ballistics of the Oto Melara are very ordinary, and the fire control system, as can be judged, does not contain anything fundamentally new.

Attempts to promote the Centauro vehicles into service with the army of the Russian Federation, therefore, appear to have little response to Russian interests and needs. The whole concept of using medium armored vehicles in some separate units in our Armed Forces seems far-fetched and uncritically borrowed in the West, so it’s not surprising that looking for equipment for imitative "mock regiments of increased mobility" turned to the same.

It is difficult to find a combat vehicle less adapted to domestic realities than the “wheeled tank” Centauro. It remains to hope that the practical acquaintance of the Russian military with this system will confirm the obvious and will not lead to new large senseless waste of public money for the benefit of Iveco and other Italian manufacturers.
Author:
Photos used:
Andrey Sedykh
236 comments
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  1. Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 06: 38
    +8
    For all these purchases and kissing with IVECO, only one thing can be said - look for someone who benefits! Profit, money, profit, everything else does not matter to these people.
    1. Goga
      Goga 18 October 2012 06: 55
      +3
      Greetings, Alexander, - kickback pancakes, pancake kickbacks, refusal ... negative
      1. Vanek
        Vanek 18 October 2012 07: 10
        +3
        Quote: Gogh
        kickbacks damn it ...


        What do you want?

        Hello to everyone.
      2. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 07: 10
        +4
        Quote: Gogh
        kickback pancakes, pancake kickbacks, refusal ..

        Hi Igor, they are dear and some very beloved
        1. bask
          bask 18 October 2012 07: 15
          +2
          Alexander, you're right. One BRYSE-IVECO costs 50 ml. Rub., Tiger ,, on average 5-7 ml. Question on .... need ,, BRYSE ,,,? For the money.!
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 18 October 2012 07: 21
            +3
            For fun - can you confirm the numbers? 8)
            Yes, and the Tiger in which of the configurations - not one of them - costs 5-7 million. And which Lynx costs 50.
            1. Cap-3 USSR
              Cap-3 USSR 18 October 2012 09: 44
              +1
              There was already an article on the same site, it shows the price with protection class 6a, a little more than 5 million. Even if you take the price from Ivek’s article, 20 million. And this despite the fact that it is inferior to the Tiger in all respects.
              1. urzul
                urzul 18 October 2012 09: 47
                +1
                In that article, the price is for a simple Tiger. 3-4 million worth the regular civilian version without reservation.
              2. Pimply
                Pimply 18 October 2012 09: 48
                +1
                Find information about the car that does not exist yet and its cost - I am happy to admit my mistake. You are aware that there is no serial car with 6A class, and it has not even passed the test. But look, I'm interested.

                Iveco serial - not 20 million worth, slightly less.
                1. Cap-3 USSR
                  Cap-3 USSR 18 October 2012 20: 47
                  0
                  There was an article on the same site a little earlier, read carefully. It clearly says what protection and what price.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 19 October 2012 08: 27
                    0
                    And still. I remember the price and the protection. Just give me evidence of your theory regarding both
              3. Kyrgyz
                Kyrgyz 18 October 2012 14: 55
                +1
                Quote: Cap-3 of the USSR
                And this despite the fact that in all respects it is inferior to the Tiger.

                It is inferior to the Tiger in cross-country ability and capacity, in security controllability and comfort Lynx is superior to the Tiger, so the difference in price is justified, as is the difference between copies of domestic utility vehicles of domestic design. In terms of the totality of qualities, it turns out the Lynx is better than the Tiger, just as the Hilux is better than the Patriot Pickup, in other words significantly, you can love or not love foreigners, but Iveco is a cut above GAZ
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 15: 00
                  0
                  Quote: Kyrgyz
                  capacity

                  This is a moot point. 6A, which everyone is trying to dovayat will also accommodate either 4 or 4 people. And on the cross - he still has not gone anywhere. If to compare with lighter options - then these are machines of a different class, and whether it will be logical to compare them - here we are talking more about application areas.
                2. Cap-3 USSR
                  Cap-3 USSR 18 October 2012 20: 53
                  0
                  In my opinion, I clearly wrote which tiger and with what protection, or you want to say that the lynx has protection 6a. I would prefer 6a to any comfort.
                  And do not tell me why our foreign colleagues so do not want to experience lynx here in Russia?
                  And in the article the emphasis is correctly placed, will we fight while driving on freeways? And off-road, this lynx is full of trash.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 19 October 2012 08: 30
                    0
                    Quote: Cap-3 of the USSR
                    In my opinion, I clearly wrote which tiger and with what protection, or you want to say that the lynx has protection 6a. I would prefer 6a to any comfort.

                    Lynx has the third STANAG in ballistic and bulletproof protection, and the second in mine defense. According to representatives of the Moscow Region, it approximately corresponds to 6A, since there can be no full correspondences - requirements are drawn up a little differently.

                    Quote: Cap-3 of the USSR
                    And do not tell me why our foreign colleagues so do not want to experience lynx here in Russia?


                    About the test was already a hundred times. You don’t care that the car has already been tested more than once or twice, and is in service with 10 countries, and has been actively used in Afghanistan for 10 years.
        2. Goga
          Goga 18 October 2012 08: 25
          0
          Alexander Romanov - Sasha, but something in the photo rubles? Tension with the euro (well, at least one piece of paper on top) or do we have such patriots in the Moscow Region that they only accept rubles? bully
          1. Vanek
            Vanek 18 October 2012 09: 57
            0
            Quote: Gogh
            or do we have such patriots in the MoD that only accept rubles? bully


            Igor, well, at least somewhere there should be her, patriotism. smile
          2. lelikas
            lelikas 18 October 2012 13: 30
            0
            Quote: Gogh
            we have in the MO such patriots that only accept rubles?
            -
            no, they defeat the enemy with his same weapon :)
      3. NORTH
        NORTH 18 October 2012 09: 49
        +4
        Tourist to Italy
      4. Dinver
        Dinver 18 October 2012 13: 00
        0
        It’s not only about kickbacks, there is also practical meaning. Our gunsmiths, for the most part, go to the developments of the times of the USSR, while they themselves do not come up with anything sensible, small batches of foreign equipment of rifles, armored vehicles, ships and other equipment should act sobering on our gunsmiths and encourage them to develop new models. By the way, if you recall the times of the USSR, starting from about 25 of the year, the USSR constantly bought samples of foreign equipment, as well as bought patents for its production.
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 07: 09
      +2
      Yeah. What is the last tested all armored car of this class in Russia, with mine protection, at the moment. Can you?
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 07: 20
        +3
        Quote: Pimply
        What is the last tested all armored car of this class in Russia, with mine protection, at the moment

        If the engineers had set such a task for the MO, the machine would have been a long time ago. There is no financial interest of individuals and no car.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 18 October 2012 07: 33
          +6
          Dear Alexander. If you were really interested in the subject, you would know that not one, and not two countries produce armored vehicles without any technical requirements from the Ministry of Defense. And they are quite successful in the market. MO is not a panacea, and not omnipotent Gd. There are certain directions, and if you slow down with them, and wait until the uncle says, you can stay without a tail.

          The tiger was originally developed for the Arabs. For their penny. Without any TK from the Ministry of Defense. Later, after the Arabs were not satisfied with the final result, and they broke off cooperation, the Tiger, at first in the lightweight, and then in the lightly armored version, also with the Brazilian-American engine, pushed the MO. Which took them.

          Then the manufacturer sat on the ass straight, and prepared to cut coupons. But it didn’t work out. Because the world has galloped 10-15 years ahead. And it must be caught up. Now, without any technical requirements from the Ministry of Defense, several enterprises are simultaneously building MDI machines and a class similar to IVECO-Lynx. But none of these machines passed the Stanag level 2 demolition test. Not a single one. To undermine in a class similar to the Lynx class, Scorpio approached close indicators - 4kg under the left front wheel. But he still passes numerous tests. Russian cars, which should complement the lineup that Lynx started, will go into the series - but most likely not even next year - not one of them, except Scorpio, has yet passed an explosion test.

          Tiger 6A - was supposed to begin passing tests last fall. Things are still there, despite the fact that in 6A, places 4, there are also no loopholes, and he is no different from Lynx. The declared price of 5 million is the price of an unarmored version of the Tiger.

          You are talking about kickbacks. Are you aware that kickbacks are paid more from domestic transactions than kickbacks from foreign ones? Schemes are easier to build.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 07: 54
            +2
            Quote: Pimply
            If you were really interested in the subject, you would know that not one, and not two countries produce armored vehicles without any technical requirements from the Ministry of Defense. And they are quite successful in the market. MO is not a panacea, nor is almighty Gd

            Here, this is precisely a panacea for us, Shamanov asks for equipment, and the Moscow Region believes that BMDs are not needed, you do not confuse the country.
            Quote: Pimply

            You are talking about kickbacks. Are you aware that kickbacks are paid more from domestic transactions than kickbacks from foreign ones? Schemes are easier to build

            You personally participated in kickbacks, or so at the level of newspapers and other media, well, so many people say about contracts with Italians too, they say a lot.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 08
              +2
              You are aware that the BMD-4M, which the Shamans so requests, is good for having a 100 mm gun. And that’s all. In terms of pool and mine protection, it lags behind modern models.
              Given the fact that Kurganets, in the version for the airborne forces with removable armored modules, should go into the army after three years, it seems to me Shamanov’s craving for the BMD-4M is more than strange. Because its plus, in addition to the gun - it can land. And the last landing was 60 years ago. In a real combat situation there will be coffins with soldiers. If he really needs a car before Kurganets - why not lobby for the modernization of current models? He stubbornly pushes the BMD-4M for several years.

              What, Shamanov is a military general, and therefore sinless? And I remember dozens of military generals who were involved in corruption. Grachev was a military general, Rutskoi - but many who. And Shamanov, already at the post of the airborne commander of the Airborne Forces, was implicated in a gang war, when he sent special forces of the Airborne Forces to disassemble a bandit-in-law around the factory. Fun, right? And he received only a reprimand for this.

              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              You personally participated in kickbacks, or so at the level of newspapers and other media, well, so many people say about contracts with Italians too, they say a lot.

              Let me say nothing here. OK?
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 08: 16
                +1
                Quote: Pimply
                Given the fact that Kurganets, in the version for the airborne forces with removable armored modules, should go into the army in three years, I feel Shamanov’s craving for the BMD-4M seems more than strange

                And if now the conflict in Syria is off the coast, what will the paratroopers fight, delivery plans?
                Quote: Pimply
                He stubbornly pushes the BMD-4M for several years.

                Quote: Pimply
                Shamans battle general, and therefore sinless?

                It is pushing, but it’s still there and he is a military general, unlike Makarov’s staffman and Serdyukov, director of a furniture store, or do they better understand with you what the Airborne Forces need now?
                Quote: Pimply
                And Shamanov, already at the post of the airborne commander of the Airborne Forces, was implicated in a gang war, when he sent special forces of the Airborne Forces to disassemble a bandit-in-law around the factory. Fun, right?

                No, it’s not fun, and there has already been a discredit of the Airborne Commander more than once, you don’t spit, everything is bad and everything is bad, that’s IVECO super, they didn’t put the equipment in the Airborne Forces and did it right.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 26
                  +2
                  Quote: Alexander Romanov
                  And if now the conflict in Syria is off the coast, what will the paratroopers fight, delivery plans?


                  Guess what they fought in the past? In all cases, they were given armored vehicles and tanks.
                  And you still assume, by the way, that Russia will send someone to the Syrian cauldron? With that situation, what is there?

                  Quote: Alexander Romanov
                  It is pushing, but it’s still there and he is a military general, unlike Makarov’s staffman and Serdyukov, director of a furniture store, or do they better understand with you what the Airborne Forces need now?


                  Yeah. Only a general who arranges a showdown for his son-in-law’s factory with the help of special forces of the Airborne Forces, and who has officially received a reprimand for this — as a general, is doubtful to me, sorry. There are neither one nor two combat generals. And the fact that he is fighting does not always speak of him from a positive point of view. The same Troshnev noted that the actions of Shamanov often lead to increased losses in the troops.

                  BMD-4M - this machine has passed, with the only advantage - a 100-mm gun. How quickly will these cars be put out of action with the proliferation of ATGMs and RPGs now? Do not say?

                  Iveco is not super. The usual, run-in armored vehicle with mine protection, which is successfully used by a dozen countries. A machine that comes late - it, or its analogue, was needed 5-7 years ago.
              2. Dart weyder
                Dart weyder 18 October 2012 09: 26
                +2
                BMD-4M is a specific machine that occupies its own niche - which no foreign or domestic machine can occupy - weight, the possibility of landing (only without tearful tantrums about "coffins", because they are not thrown out at gunpoint, but on the sidelines), and its 100mm as well as 30mm cannons do their job perfectly, besides, the ability to overcome water obstacles and the fight against heavy armored vehicles of the enemy, and this Italian monster - 30 years ago is not relevant - a target on wheels, especially at one time they created such a car based on an armored personnel carrier, but refused

                Tip-C 85 mm
                and the Airborne Forces have an Octopus, which these Italians can’t fit into soles - and again, it also overcomes water barriers
                [img]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcReO_At_X__oymHd6FMvX15CmU0d7rB2cfP

                EgfjFv0yRDp7aRDUoW-w_nQ [/ img]

                and landing, and a gun more serious

                125-mm 2A75 smoothbore tank gun, I think such a plan would be a more suitable machine, right up to the wheel chassis, can it be done ???
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 09: 32
                  0
                  As for wheeled tanks - I will not argue, they are generally an extremely controversial concept.

                  Quote: Dart Weyder
                  for they are not thrown at gunpoint, but aside


                  Apart from what? From reality, where the presence of a large number of RPGs is a harsh reality? Or away from the normative battles in urban areas? Away from the ATGMs striking for 4-8 km? Away from life, maybe from reality?
                  1. Dart weyder
                    Dart weyder 18 October 2012 09: 51
                    +1
                    no mlyn, the sides with the landing at all immediately sent to the batteries of enemy air defense systems lol and the eye works and spatial imagination! ???? this fool is higher than Octopus, and booking !? or they don’t take RPGs and ATGMs! ???? or the landing zone is not processed !? or because it’s a trough (by the way 30 years ago, read BTR-80) from Italy the crew will have + 40 to the apron from anti-tank weapons !? if the ATGM is designed against the main tank - then it’s for him that the BMD, that this crap - anyway ... (what kind of ATGM is 8 km! ???? this is his fighter why let him go! ?????))) )) and it feels like every fighter will have ATGM!? what - beyond the hill they already do not give them machines! ???))))
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 18 October 2012 09: 54
                      -1
                      Which particular of the fools do you mean? Tell me
                      1. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 11: 14
                        +1
                        A centaur for granted ... and again - its cross-country ability (count mobility) leaves much to be desired, and the caliber - to master the production of 120 mm shells, to an old cannon is not effective (against tanks for sure) ??????
                        I don’t want to repeat myself, but Nona is more effective against fortifications, and Octopus including + he is able to compete against tanks, and in terms of mobility (overcoming water barriers and landing ability), both in price and in efficiency they are many times ahead of the old Centaur
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 25
                        0
                        The centaur is interesting in terms of filling the tower, and maybe booking. The concept of wheeled tanks is generally considered extremely problematic.

                        A centaur will not join the troops, 95 percent. They need the systems that are in it. Wheelbase machines are Boomerang. Waiting for
                      3. leon-iv
                        leon-iv 18 October 2012 11: 31
                        0
                        tower fillings, and maybe reservations
                        In my opinion there is more interesting running gearbox rather.
                      4. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 33
                        -1
                        In general, there are many interesting laughing
                      5. leon-iv
                        leon-iv 18 October 2012 11: 40
                        0
                        By the way, we still have German scouts who want to buy a look at Fennek which.
                      6. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 44
                        0
                        Interesting machine, did not come across.

                        I know that the Zashchita corporation is promoting the Israeli Zibar under the Scorpion LPA brand. Crazy cross-country vehicle, simply unrealistic.



                      7. leon-iv
                        leon-iv 18 October 2012 11: 51
                        0
                        Yeah good)))
                        Extend it a little bit and hang the UAV to it
                      8. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 12: 06
                        0
                        perhaps, but I'm surprised - the car is 30 years old - can't you see what's in its "brain" in another way! ???? especially in terms of this there are other traditional partners Israel and France, from where sighting systems, rangefinders ... etc. booking - is of no interest, in this regard (as well as with the turret stuffing), the newest cars, leaders in their class are interesting ... maybe Alfa-Jet can also start buying instead of the Yak-130 ... sad request
                      9. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 11
                        0
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        perhaps, but I'm surprised - the car is 30 years old - can't you see what's in its "brain" in another way! ????


                        There, from the development of 30 years ago, I think, only the concept remained. Russia now needs good modern technologies, it is actively building ties in Europe, and the more ties, the better. One partner can suddenly merge (Israel had such a story with France), the other will remain. You can’t put all the eggs in one basket. And to peek and then do it is not as simple as it seems. It’s easier to buy a license normally.
                    2. Pimply
                      Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 26
                      +1
                      Quote: Dart Weyder
                      what naf ATGM - 8 km! ???


                      For example, Spike-ER. I recommend that you familiarize yourself.



                      And there is 25. It can be guided by an external target indicator, for example, from an UAV.

                      Quote: Dart Weyder
                      each fighter will have ATGM

                      For everyone - it may not be. But for many it’s quite possible, and for even more - RPG
                      1. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 11: 03
                        +1
                        ))))))))))))))))) well, then the laws are not written to them if they shoot at it for 8 km)))) they have + 80 to the apron! ??????? ?????? laughing
                        distance to the horizon when observed from various heights

                        so, do not confuse the flight range of the rocket, and the possibility of a maximum shot from a hill, something to shoot at 8 in a clean field - you need to rise 4-5 meters above ground level, that is, from a tree or something! ??? smile



                        don’t ignore the enemy’s anti-tank weapons, I agree - but against tank-dangerous targets, a fight is going on, too, no one will let you walk and mock the tanks in the open field at full height !?
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 08
                        0
                        Correct the picture. The same Spike can be released not exactly on target, and then adjust the flight.

                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        don’t ignore the enemy’s anti-tank weapons, I agree - but against tank-dangerous targets, a fight is going on, too, no one will let you walk and mock the tanks in the open field at full height !?

                        Yeah. Only once again I repeat - you in the building, for example, fought? Can you imagine the number of RPGs that is currently walking in different regions and countries?

                        BMD4 plus has a gun. But it does not become a tank from this. And it’s worth - like a tank.
                      3. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 12: 16
                        0
                        25 again))))))))))))) Well, let them land with the Avtamats and scare the enemy with blue berets, until (if) the main forces come up! ??? do not want to repeat - THIS IS A SPECIFIC MACHINE, (BMD) and it is imprisoned under the belt Cargo hatch of a transport aircraft, its carrying capacity and parachute system .....
                        about anti-tank weapons - Have you fought! ????? buildings in this regard - if there is an enemy (not about partisans) - they are destroyed in advance, + (if it’s not partisanism, but regular armies) - FARES, not everyone dares to strike from the BUILDING on something if a couple of shells can instantly fly in response 100 or 30 mm, or even more ... the same Georgians, -many of them had RPGs and ATGMs !? - a lot, but this (no matter how shitty they fought) the army - the fleet shifted - they retreated .... no one partisan .... we are not going to attack, but in Chechnya - differently, and I think Amerikosov there- they would have bothered even more, they wouldn’t have climbed then, partisans ..... there were ambushes and so on, because it was easier to kill everyone in the city than to find the one who shot
                      4. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        Have you fought! ?????

                        Yes, three years.
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        BUILDINGS for anything, if in response a pair of 100 or 30 mm shells can instantly fly in,

                        However, dozens of tanks are being burned in Syria.
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        the fleet shifted - they retreated ...

                        They retreated. And there is an option that someone will not back down. Or that they will have to fight not with the conventional army, but with partisan groups.
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        ... we're not going to attack

                        And yet.
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        THIS IS A SPECIFIC MACHINE, (BMD)

                        Very specific. And Shamanov really wants, although there are still older models. This machine still can not replace the tank, and in modern conditions of battle, it will become a coffin on the tracks.
                      5. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 12: 38
                        0
                        BMD-1 was adopted in 69, BMD-2 - in the mid-80s ... what else can I say ... and again (I'm tired ..) - THIS IS NOT A TANK !!!!! And the fire support vehicle, and the sighting system and firepower are a couple of orders higher than their predecessors, and accordingly - therefore, it is worth taking it. and this is not a modernization of BMD - 1 or - 2, but a new car, Bahcha-U is identical, and stand on other machines, which again reduces the cost ....


                        about the ubiquitous -
                        Quote: Pimply
                        This car still cannot replace the tank.

                        and the centaur can! ???
                      6. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 46
                        +1
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        fire support vehicle, and sighting system and firepower a couple of orders higher than its predecessors, and accordingly - therefore, it is worth taking it

                        But it is worth it as in modern war conditions is almost meaningless.

                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        and the centaur can! ???

                        And where does the Centaur?

                        In my opinion, for the umpteenth time it is said that Kurganets will be, in the version for the airborne forces with removable armor. It will be by 2015-2016. What really would be worth doing is to modernize the existing vehicles, and expand the fleet of airborne transport, not limited only to airborne vehicles.

                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        and the centaur can! ???

                        Wheel tanks, in principle, are rather meaningless cars.
                      7. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 19: 52
                        0
                        Well, now - Kurganets ... almost reached a consensus bully it’s just that it will appear by 2015 (and given the local traditions - fine-tuning, jambs, etc.) it will not be known when it will go into production, the same BMD-4 should have been in operation since 2004 ... i.e. more than 10 years would have passed before the advent of Kurgan ... accordingly, when operating a new machine, certain experience would have been gained, both among the military and the designers - and this is a very important factor, + there would be a good machine in service, and it’s not necessary write it off - with skillful handling, it can smash any kind of armored vehicles ... but about Kurganets, I hope the car will be advanced, but if I’m not mistaken, it’s unable to land from an airplane, so it’s necessary to use BMD, or this one, or newer
              3. AK-74-1
                AK-74-1 18 October 2012 13: 29
                +1
                Eugene You are far from right in your estimates of the BMD-4M. This machine, in addition to the 100mm gun-launcher, also has 2 simply indisputable properties:
                1. The ability to independently overcome water barriers.
                2. Ability to drop.
                I do not know any analogue of the BMD-4M. For the paratrooper, the main thing is speed and firepower. Behind enemy lines it is always better to have a 100mm cannon on tracks versus a 12.7mm Browning on a Hummer.
                I agree that the time of a large landing in a modern theater of operations is practically impossible. But the presence of a large number of IL-76, AN-124 and An-225 will allow a sudden release before the declaration of war to conduct a good "peacekeeping" operation to enforce peace. As you know, the best air defense is our tanks on launchers and enemy airfields.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 13: 43
                  0
                  Quote: AK-74-1
                  This machine, in addition to the 100mm gun launcher, has 2 more indisputable properties:

                  I exaggerated somewhat. But let's evaluate the situation realistically. It’s pointless to buy these cars now, when in three years Kurganets should replace them. It is not only the machines themselves, it is both provision and maintenance. And cars cost a lot.

                  Do not forget - the machine is not well protected from bullets and from mines. And the real situation is such that, with today's realities, a khan can quickly come. But the reality is that various anti-tank weapons are now readily available, and are available in huge quantities.


                  Quote: AK-74-1
                  our tanks at enemy control centers and airfields

                  The phrase, of course, is correct. Only at the beginning this airdrome is needed.
                  1. nagual
                    nagual 18 October 2012 13: 52
                    0
                    That's it! Now in MO there is a whole batch of wheel supporters. If the Airborne Forces receive BMD-4M instead of Kurgan, then the question will arise, why such a variety of grades? Isn't it better to change the others on wheels too? So with all the understanding of the problems with the technique of winged infantry, they will have to wait for Kurgan. And it is right.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 18 October 2012 13: 53
                      0
                      BMD-4M - not wheeled
                      1. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 14: 12
                        +1
                        Naturally. Only the question of replacing tracked vehicles with wheeled vehicles (boomerangs) in the "medium" brigades is very acute. The fact is that Kurganets turns out to be heavy (already not design 25 tons) and not everything goes smoothly with a complex of weapons for the main version (BMP). And they managed to make a Boomerang with very good protection (they shot back at him last year) and he is almost ready. And now, if a couple of years fail with the Kurgan, and the Airborne Forces get the BMD-4M, then the question arises: what the hell is this Kurgan?
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 14: 15
                        0
                        Clear. Well, my IMHO - the wheels will not replace the tracks. These systems must complement each other.
                        According to Boomerang - very interesting. By the way - did you use it to blow it up? And features - like him, like the main current models, were going to do with the ramp?
                        By the way, what are the reasons for these 25 tons? There they were going to make removable armor for air transportation, no? IMHO, that's when the lack of serial KAZ pops up

                        IMHO, this gag by weight can greatly kill a potentially good platform
                      3. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 14: 51
                        0
                        On wheels / tracks - this is not only your opinion. This is a sound judgment, especially considering the domestic climate and soils.
                        25 tons were initially laid in TK for transportation reasons (actually, Kurganets-25 - this is an option with this mass, there were others). At the same time, the MO insisted on substantial increasing security, and at the same time, overcoming water obstacles at once. The latter led to an increase in the armor volume and, as a result, an increase in mass. Well, the front location of MTO does not affect the "buoyancy" in the best way. + besides, the weapon options cannot be made weightless in any way. Even with the new cannon (which has telescopic ammunition and a separate module), a decent weight is obtained.
                        And so, in terms of weight, there is overweight, in terms of protection - it is still inferior to Armata. from this, the thought crept into some heads - it can increase the number of "heavy" brigades, airborne troops and MPs give out BMD-4M (so that Kurganmashzavod does not take offense), and the rest can buy "three" or new "boomerangs". The question is still open. And objectively, Shamanov's opinion plays against Kurganets.
                      4. Varnaga
                        Varnaga 18 October 2012 15: 01
                        0
                        With your permission, a few questions:
                        The fact is that the Kurgan is heavy

                        EMNIP should be 3 classes by weight: light, medium, heavy. That is, the Kurgan does not fit into the third class, or has everyone moved towards weighting? By the way, the Boomerang, according to the terms of reference for which we are working, should be a total mass of ~ 22000 kg, it is clear that the classes are completely different, the security requirements too, so it seems to me that the increase in mass should be expected.
                        Will an EDZ 4S24 be used?
                        and not everything goes smoothly with a complex of weapons for the main version (BMP)

                        BO B8Y01, because of which the cost is approaching the T-90?
                        But they managed to make a Boomerang with very good protection (they shot back at him last year) and healmost ready.

                        It is strange, the materials that come to us from the VIC do not correspond to this statement a little, however, we are working on the version with ET and its chosen scheme provides good unification with the "usual" one.
                        That is, as I understand it, the chassis (with hydropneumatic suspension with variable clearance), the body, the MTO are ready. By the way, what about the automatic transmission? Just like on Typhoon? Then Galkin recently spoke out that it would be nice to cooperate with foreigners.
                        You can answer in PM)
              4. rumpeljschtizhen
                rumpeljschtizhen 19 October 2012 00: 29
                0
                Fully agree with Pimply BMD-4m is not a machine at all and the strange joy for her Airborne Commander-in-Chief
                for the reasons listed above
                Kurgan will be soon
                airborne assault in my fantasy (large masses of troops)
                Yes, and in itself it is not clear why
          2. Varnaga
            Varnaga 18 October 2012 08: 20
            +3
            Dear Pimple, do not throw beads.
            Attempts to promote Centauro vehicles into the arsenal of the Russian army thus appear to be inadequate to Russian interests and needs.

            Afftor is a natural idiot, no one was going to buy Centauro, Freccia, as well as Patria en masse, we are only talking about the study of world experience, which will later be taken into account (and taken into account, by the way) in "Boomerang".
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 38
              +2
              Run in application principles. Perhaps they will purchase a license for some nodes or systems, as with the French.
              1. nagual
                nagual 18 October 2012 09: 18
                +2
                Actually, it was Oto-Melara who initially wanted to collaborate. They really liked our anti-tank systems, which are also in service with potential importers (all kinds of Arabs). They were told: share your experience and maybe we will create a joint venture for the production of weapons modules - and we just won’t give missiles. So they are divided.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 09: 24
                  0
                  In principle, Italians have their own good anti-tank systems, but the option that the Russian systems are armed with various Arabs is yes, it is quite variable.
                  The tiger went to Israel, it was installed KAZ lightweight with a remote module. In general - all kinds of undercover movements until the fig goes, people here seem to be. they do not understand this point blank.
                  1. nagual
                    nagual 18 October 2012 09: 32
                    +2
                    The Italians themselves spoke about the joint venture, even when the first centaurs just arrived. And with an eye on exports. So the thesis of many articles on this topic, that we use cars for adoption, is pulled into the void lol However, we really wanted to get some kind of technological bonus from cooperation, and with an eye to Boomerang. But the Italians do not allow people from GRAU and GABT to dig into cars. Therefore, cooperation is questionable.
                    And to those who are engaged in ranting about the adoption of the Centaurs in service, I remind you - in the purchasing program - "Boomerangs", no Italians!
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 18 October 2012 09: 36
                      +1
                      I’m wondering what exactly the cars aimed at
                      1. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 09: 53
                        +2
                        I know that it was the 38th Research Institute of BTVT that wanted to shoot at vehicles in Kubinka. So, I was interested in security. But the Italians did not give a shot. GRAU people were more interested in the HITFACT tower machine. What they were allowed to see, what not - I don’t know. And the first two cars are now somewhere not at the training grounds, but in the bowels of the Military-Industrial Company. So, a little digging was allowed. wink
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 09: 57
                        +1
                        Yes, there is a good system installed. This one, if you haven’t messed up anything?

                        http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1606.html

                        In principle, electronic cooperation with the French is currently underway. There is an option that the Italians have set their sights on this, since the grandmothers are good as they are.
                      3. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 10: 06
                        +3
                        Not the newest, but not bad. In HITFACT, the turret’s automatic turret after taking the commander’s panorama for auto tracking. And the calculation of the angle / elevation of the gun is also automatic.
                      4. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 09
                        +1
                        I’m wondering - can’t I hear anything about the development of new Russian KAZ? Indeed, such systems could seriously change the face of wheeled and tracked systems of various types.

                        There still seems to be a decrease in returns.

                      5. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 10: 12
                        +2
                        On the "Armata" and on the "Boomerang" they will show, but not right away ... The first samples that are ready for testing will be "naked".
                      6. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 16
                        +2
                        It would be interesting to take a look. In general, several types are needed, including lungs. For Iveco, the Germans seem to have done something; the Israelis also universal universal light KAZ. And Lynx will obviously need such a little thing. Given the regular use of RPG-shek fighters
                      7. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 10: 25
                        +1
                        I'm interested too. I don’t even guess what’s there yet. They began to give me in the research institute when I became interested in the new DZshka. They gave it "morally", but the desire to poke my nose was gone crying
                      8. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 30
                        0
                        They are evil. But this market, I feel, will soon develop in leaps and bounds. Although, I think, the Israelis will occupy a considerable niche. Iron fist in tests in the States managed to bring down a tank shell, and Rafael added Trophy to a helicopter.

                        I’m wondering what, and most importantly, when it comes up in Russia. The downside is that, unlike Westerners who are actively advertising themselves, nothing shines here according to the old Soviet habit.
                      9. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 10: 37
                        +2
                        The habit is probably right. Only really, it turns out that if you answer all the prowlers specifically, you can get under the vulture theme. Now, even through exercises, one can run into a formidable shout from competent people. And here are the former Yeltsin chiefs of the Armed Forces (they are also concurrently prominent academic figures and heads of analytical centers) to the full extent of the reform. And in response - the Star channel, which is afraid to fart, so as not to blurt out.
                      10. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 42
                        +1
                        I would not say that the habit is right. Naturally, you don’t have to shine all the data. But advertising in reasonable doses is important and needs to be done. As well as competent PR.

                        Damn, they pass along Serdyukov as if there was a perfect, wonderful army before him, which had everything, there were wonderful, knowledgeable officers, there was zero corruption, and everything was awesome. In my opinion, this is the only person over the past half century who has tried at least something in the army to move from the dead point: with their jambs, but tried.
                      11. leon-iv
                        leon-iv 18 October 2012 10: 51
                        +1
                        with their jambs, but tried.
                        All the handshake buhurt will run up at you. By the way, the berserker has an interesting video with a machine gunner. He showed his friend a former machine gunner, he whinnied like a gray gelding. He said: "He would have quickly taught him to our platoon commander to shoot from a machine gun and love his homeland."
                        I’m thinking that with ISAF it would be if the Taliban were supplied, as in the days of the USSR.
                      12. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 55
                        0
                        Well, I have my opinion there on the machine gunner. Rides here are - in principle, the standard, if your mileage is covered by fire, and a fall in place is the right decision, mine the edges of the roads. The downside is that he shot a long burst at first. And the fact that they did not act further, but remained there lying around.
                      13. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 10: 51
                        +2
                        Well, about the “evil Taburetkin,” even Kanchukov suddenly began to praise him and fill him with advisers. But Ivashovs / Sobolevs and other "military professionals" - just no one will call - that's enough, they have already built houses for themselves. Moreover, at a time when truck officers were unloading, and after duty, shops went to guard. They are somehow embarrassed to recall this - such as the collapse began when they were asked for a well-deserved rest.
                      14. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 58
                        0
                        Yeah. About that and speech. It seems that "the evil Taburetkin destroyed everything," before, everything was perfect. One of my friends remembered how they once ate maggots in Chechnya, and another friend - how he and his grandfathers lay in hospitals for six months. First he, then "grandfathers" (there were two of them, some were small), and so they changed each other. And the soldiers did not build dachas, of course, and there was no theft - everything was the way. And then Taburetkin came.
                      15. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 11: 11
                        +1
                        I recall how the well-deserved commander Khrulev, giving an interview on the actions of the 58th army in the war 080808, began to scold the reform, although in fact, he himself had run it in the fighting. And, by the way, the 58th acted with tactical battalion groups quite successfully, and the command was from the forward KP, with coordination at the district level. That is, the division management turned out to be an extra link. But he draws a conclusion opposite to his own story - the divisions were removed in vain. So understand the "military professionals." belay
                      16. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 17
                        +1
                        Khrulev talked there a lot of fun. I read it was a tremendous pleasure in reading, many interesting moments surfaced there, he fenced himself off as soon as he could 8). Apparently, a lot of mistakes were made there. In fact, it was very lucky that the Georgians made an order of magnitude more mistakes - according to Israeli instructors, the discipline in those parts that they prepared was at zero, the people freed as much as they could. Yes, and NATO normally prepared one battalion, or something. More competent actions on the part of the Georgians are normal and not cheap Turkish cartridges: and how to know how the situation would turn ...
                      17. leon-iv
                        leon-iv 18 October 2012 11: 28
                        +1
                        Apparently, a lot of mistakes were made there.
                        Yeah, mostly with the coordination of troops.
                        More competent actions on the part of the Georgians are normal and not cheap Turkish cartridges: and how to know how the situation would turn ...
                        Nothing would have changed the wrong level.
                      18. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 11: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Pimply

                        I would not say that the habit is right. Naturally, you don’t have to shine all the data. But advertising in reasonable doses is important and needs to be done. As well as competent PR.

                        Damn, they pass along Serdyukov as if there was a perfect, wonderful army before him, which had everything, there were wonderful, knowledgeable officers, there was zero corruption, and everything was awesome. In my opinion, this is the only person over the past half century who has at least tried to move something off the ground in the army
                        Oh yes or whatever italian wink
                      19. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 08
                        +2
                        So the arguments ended. Do you take an example from Matt? Do not take it, it was banned.
        2. Kyrgyz
          Kyrgyz 18 October 2012 15: 03
          0
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          If the engineers had set such a task for the MO, the machine would have been a long time ago. There is no financial interest of individuals and no car.

          It’s not true, besides the task, the engineers will need laboratories materials, modern equipment, production and the engineers themselves, and for their preparation, teachers and manuals, and again the laboratory, in general, everything that has been destroyed for a long time, so just setting the task will only lead to the development of funds, and the appearance the product is just the product of the producer’s labor and not the customer’s effort, and it is due to the financial interest of the manufacturer and his ability to compete and develop proposals, marketing plays an important role here
      2. Vanek
        Vanek 18 October 2012 07: 22
        +4
        Humor (maybe in the subject).

        You walk down the street, meet me.
        - Hello, darling! Come to me in the evening.
        - Why?
        - Come in, see.
        I come to you, you got a shortage through the storehouse, through the store director, through the merchandiser! Listen, no one has - you have! I tried - it melts in my mouth! The taste is specific! I respect you.
        The next day I walk down the street, I meet you.
        - Hello, darling! Come to me in the evening.
        - Why?
        - Come in - see!
        You come to me, I got a deficit through the warehouse, through the store director, through the merchandiser, through the back porch! Listen, no one has - I have! You tried it - you lost your speech! The taste is specific! Do you respect me. I respect you. You and I are respected people.


        Arkady Raikin.
      3. bask
        bask 18 October 2012 07: 25
        +2
        Yesterday, in comets in you, there was a debate about Kraz using MRAP technology. The Urains were able to make their armor ... We have wonderful 2 x bridge chassis KAMAZ and Ural. Strengthen the frame, bridges, driveshafts, V-shaped chassis and armored capsule. Merry and angry. There is no independent hanging. Repair in the field by conscripts !!! Why do not offer a designer, at least in terms of initiative. And the cost of the product at the nodes of serial units is three times lower !!! And the efficiency is higher.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 07: 30
          +2
          Quote: bask
          Repair in the field by conscripts !!! Why do not offer the designer, at least in terms of initiative.

          As it does not offer, here's KAMAZ
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 18 October 2012 07: 43
            +2
            Now tell us about the advantages of the Shot, for example, how convenient it is to leave it.

            If we talk about Kamaz, it is not this "exhaust" that is more interesting, but the "Typhoon", and its small version, which is conventionally called the "typhoon" - it is only in development.

            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 07: 58
              +2
              Quote: Pimply
              Now tell us about the advantages of the Shot, for example, how convenient it is to leave it.

              I’ll explain more simply, and the better, a simple non-armored KAMAZ, when you have to leave it under a hail of bullets anyway, and you can sit there, you are probably the only specialist in the design field, and in the design bureau all the fools are sitting and do not know what to do. Enough of the propaganda of this Western technique, it’s already enough. The tigers in 43 were also good, but in the end the less technologically advanced T 34 rolled around Berlin.
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 11
                +3
                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                The Tigers at 43 were also good, but in the end, the less technologically advanced T 34 rolled around Berlin.

                There were not so many tigers. And the less advanced T34 was modernized to deal with them more than once. And I recall how many lives paid for this science? I remember that very well.


                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                I’ll explain more simply, and the better the simple unarmored KAMAZ, when under a hail of bullets it will have to be left this way


                Now "simple and unarmored" are massively changed to armored versions, if you are not aware.
              2. leon-iv
                leon-iv 18 October 2012 10: 23
                +1
                T-34 was supposed to be a tank through to T-34M or T-43 and had a huge number of childhood diseases for which our soldiers paid for their lives.
          2. bask
            bask 18 October 2012 07: 49
            +2
            Sorry, Alexander But ,, KAMAZ-Shot. As if softer, it’s not that. And the day. It’s not yesterday, but the day before yesterday. Russia needs to move forward. Cheap massive armor .... using the MPI technology is vital. ((Constantly actions from ambushes and explosions on IEDs)))))))
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 08: 01
              0
              Quote: bask
              .Russia needs to move forward. Cheap-massive armor .... by

              Duc, we are moving, over and over with thousands we buy wink
              1. Pimply
                Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 13
                0
                Calculate how much of the millionth army will be provided with armored vehicles for, say, the 3000th purchase
                1. Alexander Romanov
                  Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 08: 22
                  0
                  Quote: Pimply
                  Calculate how much of the millionth army will be provided with armored vehicles for, say, the 3000th purchase

                  Theoretically, 150 thousand, but only most of these machines will go under command, it loves comfort.
                  1. Pimply
                    Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 29
                    0
                    150 thousand? And if you recall the math? 3000 to 5 will be 15000. Fifteen thousand, not one hundred and fifty. Given that part of the vehicles will be staff and command, reduce this number to 10-12 thousand. So, how much is a millionth army? How many are three, four brigades maximum, right?
                    1. Alexander Romanov
                      Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 08: 33
                      0
                      Quote: Pimply
                      . Fifteen thousand, not one hundred and fifty.

                      I put an extra zero, nothing to do with mathematics.
                      Quote: Pimply
                      How many are three, four brigades maximum, right?

                      so we will have brigades fully equipped with Italian bullshit-EXCELLENT
                      1. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 35
                        +2
                        Tell me, what is the machine that 10 countries use in Afghanistan in combat conditions for more than one year, bullshit? The fact that it doesn't have a "Made in Russia" label?
                        Or are you just scared to admit how Russian frill in a number of areas lagged behind the world?

                        Yes, and if you just imprinted, you would not give such a separation in zeros. You really thought that 150 soldiers would drive 3000 cars. I have a feeling that you are ready to be proud of any bullshit, as long as it has the appropriate label. You need to be proud of quality things. Such as high-quality Orsis rifles, for example - a high-quality, European approach to the product. And not a machine from the past such as "Shot", which will ditch the soldiers.
                      2. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 08: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Pimply
                        The fact that it doesn't have a "Made in Russia" label?

                        Including precisely this.
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Or are you just scared to admit how Russian frill in a number of areas lagged behind the world?

                        I admit this already, and it will lag even more if, among other things, you are lobbying for the interests of a foreign producer, instead of investing in the development of your industries. There are smart heads and engineers in Russia, but there are people who want to invest and there is no way to allocate money to your design bureau.
                      3. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 58
                        +3
                        Quote: Alexander Romanov
                        Including this

                        For you it is not including, for you it is in the first place. Otherwise, they would not have happily poked around here with photographs of the very shameful "Shot".


                        Quote: Alexander Romanov
                        I admit this already, and it will lag even more if, among other things, you are lobbying for the interests of a foreign producer, instead of investing in the development of your industries. There are smart heads and engineers in Russia, but there are people who want to invest and there is no way to allocate money to your design bureau.


                        SASHA. Which one will be left behind even more? Already behind. Holes need to be plugged with something until it catches up. Because the alternative payment is the lives of soldiers. Now in the development of one and a half dozen new armored vehicles, including MRAP, which, taking into account all the latest military operations that were conducted and are ongoing, are vital. Now Russia does not have its own ready platform. The first armored vehicles will be tested only from next year. Do you really think that this convulsive plugging of a hole will destroy the military-industrial complex?

                        The states, when they started Iraq, and there was a need for armored vehicles, did not scream convulsively, but bought cars where they were, and simultaneously developed their own. They had no tantrums about this. In the USSR, when there were no tanks, they were not too lazy to buy a platform and a license for Christie's tanks. And at the same time they were developing. No, modern Russia needs absolute independence, or rather, its visibility. NO her. NO. Even the USSR did not build everything by itself. We bought German armor plates and helmets for special vehicles, Polish ships, Czech planes, etc. Wake up.
                      4. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 09: 58
                        -1
                        no - everything is fine, only there are a little more people in the platoon than in Brysia, so now also to lay the army with a new reform !? and change the climatic conditions in the country if it doesn’t really travel in the snow or in the mud, unlike the Tiger, which is cheaper, and they explode in Afghanistan, so that the priest’s crew ... they just fill up a little more explosives, for sure .... so what - why pay more for an unnecessary car !?
                      5. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 06
                        +1
                        Do you think that the whole platoon should move in one machine? 28-30 people can not accommodate in 6 cars?
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        and change the climatic conditions in the country if it doesn’t really travel in the snow or mud, unlike the Tiger,

                        Lynx is used by Norwegians. Do they have a very different climate from the Russian? The Caucasus, where it will mainly be used - are there so much climate and dirt from Afghanistan?

                        Which of several Tiger models drives better? The one that a year ago could not climb a 20 degree slope? This? Or the one that in the 6A format last year had to pass tests, and has not passed so far? Is he? Speak to me the price of the Tiger, pliz, in a configuration equal to Iveco. Or does this machine not exist if my memory serves me right?

                        You still cannot understand - THERE IS NO UNIVERSAL MACHINES. For different tasks, the army should have different cars. Starting from the Tigers or Scorpions for complete off-road, and ending with heavy tank-type infantry fighting vehicles for large-scale military operations. All. The practice of modern wars shows that Iveco type machines are needed, as well as other types of machines. That's all
                      6. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 11: 31
                        0
                        Quote: Pimply
                        28-30 people

                        platoon from 9 to 45) key nodes LMV M65 (Iveco) - not of Italian origin. Composite armor with ceramics is German, it is based on Dutch materials (organite), an American engine - they won’t give a production license .... what is the point of assembling a controversial puzzle! ???? + I didn’t see how the Tiger didn’t overpower the rise, but I didn’t see the scatter in the snow, unlike the Tiger, and it is chased across the plains at the show)
                      7. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 41
                        0
                        I love when people like to read Wikipedia 8)
                        The average infantry platoon is around 30 people.
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        Composite armor with ceramics is German, it is based on Dutch materials (organite), an American engine - they won’t give a production license ...

                        Of course it’s great that they won’t give, but at the moment the first cars of the Russian assembly have already gone.

                        The YaMZ for the Tiger was finalized by the Austrians, if I am not mistaken.
                        In the Tiger there are not a few foreign details. Japanese starter, for example.

                        In total, localization will be 70%, according to Serdyukov. In fact, this machine plugs a hole, which is at the moment until the end of the development of Russian wheeled armored cars and MPM. Let's see how it goes.
                        I will quote

                        "The sensational video, where IVECO lags behind Russian armored vehicles in a race on virgin snow, can be easily explained. Initially, cars were purchased that were not suitable for operation in the Russian Federation, with a wide front bumper, which did not include protection against snow and chains for wheels. which are available on similar vehicles of the armies of Norway and Austria.When driving in deep snow, the wide bumper created the effect of a blade pushing a snowdrift in front of IVECO, which led to a significant slowdown.The car did not get stuck, but it went hard, jerky.
                        Today, for snowy areas, incl. and for Russia, the cars are equipped with a special protection of the engine tray, which simultaneously performs the functions of a snow divider, the design of the bumper has been changed.

                        Based on the results of the tests, conclusions are drawn with recommendations on additional special tests to determine the protective properties when exposed to the damaging factors of modern weapons.

                        http://twower.livejournal.com/611921.html
                        Here in detail
                      8. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 12: 19
                        0
                        about Wikipedia - no, right now I’ll teach you all the technical characteristics of everything in the world, in any case with dvigl - I’m already having some kind of problem
                      9. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 23
                        0
                        This is me about a platoon.
                      10. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 12: 43
                        0
                        Well, about the same Wikipedia - you do not hesitate to drop in !? once you remember what was taken from her !? Well, it's the little things ....

                        but about
                        Quote: Pimply
                        The average infantry platoon is around 30 people

                        and if the platoon is "not average" then the rest are at the expense, or for a ride! ??? wink
                        I don’t think IMHO of course, but judging by the comments, many people think that bribes paved the way for these Italians, and not their design innovation ..... I don’t like them ...
                      11. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Dart Weyder

                        Well, about the same Wikipedia - you do not hesitate to drop in !?
                        I do not disdain. I was kidding. Just before that, I specified the number of infantry platoon in the Russian army, I served in another. It coincided.


                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        and if the platoon is "not average" then the rest are at the expense, or for a ride! ???

                        The number of cars is attached, depending on the size of the platoon, for a minute.
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        I don’t think IMHO of course, but judging by the comments, many people think that bribes paved the way for these Italians, and not their design innovation ..... I don’t like them ...

                        Rather, these Italians paved the way for the mutual benefit of governments. Bribes are easier to receive on internal contracts, kickbacks are larger and the benefits are an order of magnitude higher.
                      12. urzul
                        urzul 18 October 2012 11: 45
                        0
                        There the Tiger was far away on 6A in the video, so there is nothing to argue about.
                        6 has the same passenger capacity as the Lynx. The tiger in the 3 class has already been released in a large edition.
                      13. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 49
                        0
                        Well, the topic with a lift

                        http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/230918/
                  2. leon-iv
                    leon-iv 18 October 2012 10: 25
                    0
                    You look at Denis Mokrushin about comfort in Ivek. )))))
              2. bask
                bask 18 October 2012 13: 35
                0
                Here’s the story of Alexander. We buy in thousands of Brys-Iveco. Which neither the RA nor the Ministry of Internal Affairs need. And stupidly make an armored capsule. And we can’t put it on the reinforced 2 x bridge chassis KAMAZ and the Urals ????? Only the use of serial units can reduce the cost of the armor ..... and make it really massive in Armenia, Mrap !!!
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 13: 44
                  0
                  In the development of the model is. But this is a different class of machines - and they still have not passed the test.
                  About what is not needed - I think you will not agree with a dozen people who were blown up in August and September in the Caucasus.
            2. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 11
              +2
              Just Alexander does not care about the lives of soldiers. He is more important than a baby than a human life, as I understand it.
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 08: 21
                0
                Quote: Pimply
                Just Alexander does not care about the lives of soldiers.

                Judging by how you greet the acts of Seryukov, it’s up to you to spit on the lives of soldiers !!! You are a simple lobbyist who is trying to prove to everyone that the actions of Serdyukov and Co. are correct.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 33
                  +2
                  Who am I lobbying for?

                  Tell then, what is the WRONGness of their actions?

                  The last 30 years, the Russian army was so good, but they all destroyed?
                  1. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 08: 42
                    +1
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Who am I lobbying for?

                    But what, are you not pushing here and telling everyone about the advantages of IVECO and aren’t you in the first rows scumbling any samples of land equipment produced in Russia? Weren't you just talking about Shamanov?
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Tell then, what is the WRONGness of their actions?

                    Of course, they’re doing everything right, the Airborne Forces asks, give at least something HORN. They did the brigade, it didn’t work, go to the battalions, or didn’t you read that the reform failed? Where are the fighters, in the supply plans, how much did the Black Sea Fleet recover from 2008? The dismantled GRU-YOUNG brigades, everything is correct, as you should understand. To create 7 bases on which all ammunition will be stored is also true, will you drag them to different ends of the country in the event of warriors on your hump? Or maybe you’re the one smart here but everyone else understands nothing?
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 50
                      +2
                      Quote: Alexander Romanov
                      But what, are you not pushing here and telling everyone about the advantages of IVECO and aren’t you in the first rows scumbling any samples of land equipment produced in Russia? Weren't you just talking about Shamanov?

                      I don't care if Iveco is or another car. If there was a high-quality Russian car of this class - a high-quality, normal, protecting soldier, with anti-mine normal protection - I would have torn for it. Another car would have been bought, also high-quality, foreign - would have defended it, I do not care for a life label. I don’t care about the lives of soldiers. I had several friends who went through Chechnya and other Caucasian fun. I am not happy at all that the guys who replaced them can die simply because it is more important to someone what is written on the back of the car, and not how it protects the fighters.

                      Quote: Alexander Romanov
                      Did the brigades do not succeed, go to the battalions, or didn’t you read that the reform failed?

                      I'm waiting, tell me.
                      1. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 08: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Did the brigades do not succeed, go to the battalions, or didn’t you read that the reform failed?
                        I'm waiting, tell me.

                        And what else did you miss? What about the rest
                        Quote: Alexander Romanov
                        Of course, they’re doing everything right, the Airborne Forces asks, give at least something HORN. They did the brigade, it didn’t work, go to the battalions, or didn’t you read that the reform failed? Where are the fighters, in the supply plans, how much did the Black Sea Fleet recover from 2008? The disbanded brigades of the GRU-YOUNG guys, everything is correct, and it is necessary in your understanding. To create 7 bases on which all ammunition will be stored is also true, on your hump you will drag them to different ends of the country in case of warriors

                        Quote: Alexander Romanov
                        ? Weren't you just talking for Shamanov
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 59
                        0
                        Quote: Alexander Romanov
                        And what else did you miss? What about the rest

                        I'm waiting for a start on this.
                      3. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 09: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I'm waiting for a start on this.

                        Well, from what source would you like to receive or throw me the whole site with articles from the media. Hundreds of hundreds on this topic, maybe enough or nothing else to say. Can you continue to lobby Mr. Serdyukov
                      4. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 09: 26
                        +1
                        Ask. Give something from reputable sources such as Commersant. Not Izvestia only, pliz. With specific, not anonymous, first and last names. I really want to see. Desirable - at least two.
                      5. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 09: 43
                        +2
                        Meanwhile, experts are skeptical of the military leadership’s move to create reinforced battalions based on constant alert brigades.

                        For example, Colonel General Yuri Bukreev, the former head of the Main Combat Training Directorate of the Ground Forces, told Interfax that the formation of the notorious battalion tactical groups based on combined-arms combat alert teams clearly indicates the actual failure of the task of creating a “new look” for the Armed Forces.

                        “After almost four years of modernizing the army and navy, we came to what we started with: an acute shortage of privates and sergeants in the troops, understaffing of formations and units of constant combat readiness. Remember, the initiators of the “new look” of the army in 2009 did not get tired of repeating that we did not need “paper” divisions, where the shortage of military personnel was more than 50%, and it would be better to create combined-arms motorized infantry brigades of constant combat readiness on their basis, and at the same time liquidate the division structures . In less than a few years, everything is repeated from the beginning, ”the general emphasized.

                        According to Bukreev, the formation of a "new look" all these years went more in words than in reality. Moreover, this ideology was not supported by the political will of the leadership of the Ministry of Defense. The divisional system, which was most adapted to combat operations in Russia, was quickly destroyed, the general said.



                        “The saddest thing,” he noted, “was that tens of thousands of the best trained officers in the division-army link were dismissed in the short term, there was a generation gap in the troops due to the liquidation of military academies and military schools, and the recruitment of freshmen to military educational establishments. All this led to the degradation of combat training and large failures in the modernization of the army and navy, ”the general emphasized.
                        According to Bukreev, it is not necessary to overestimate the capabilities of reinforced battalions, since "the troops gathered from various units are unlikely to be able to maintain combat readiness for a long time, to strengthen coherence in battle."

                        “It was precisely such formations that were created in a hurry in all districts and fleets in 1999 that were the main reason that we were defeated in the first Chechen armed conflict. I am well aware of the “price” of such battalions formed on a temporary basis during the first Chechen campaign in which I happened to participate. Why step on the same rake a second time? ” - says the general.

                        “Battalions are a tactical group capable of solving the tasks of countering a serious enemy and, at best, fighting individual terrorist groups. But if there is a large-scale terrorist attack similar to that taking place in the same Syria, the battalions will not be able to do anything, ”said Konstantin Sivkov, First Vice-President of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, in an interview with the newspaper VZGLYAD.

                        “Today we could equip brigades to the required levels,” he said. - For this, it was necessary to pursue a correct policy in the field of training for the Armed Forces and the gathering of draftees. It wasn’t. I’ll just list you: as a result of the reform, higher military educational institutions were liquidated, some of them were turned into UCs (educational and scientific centers), unable to solve the full-fledged tasks of training personnel, another part of military universities was transferred to other regions, but in essence - also destroyed. The second stage was throwing from a purely contractual to a purely draft army. As a result, we have neither contract soldiers nor conscripts. The third stage is the reduction of the annual draft ”
                      6. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 09: 53
                        0
                        There is one material, bravo. Overpower another?
                        And, preferably, with internal criticism, from among the existing military, say - this also happens. And then I will give you my comment.
                      7. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 09: 54
                        +2
                        In the conversation with the KM.RU observer, the first vice-president of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, captain of the first rank, doctor of military sciences Konstantin Sivkov did not share the optimistic mood of the president and senior officials of the RF Armed Forces:

                        - There are different things: the organization of the exercises, the question of training the troops who participated in them, and the quality of the military reform itself. Perhaps it was worth praising for the training of the composition and organization of the exercises of the responsible persons. But Vladimir Vladimirovich in his assessment completely did not take into account the results of the ongoing reform and their impact on the state of defense of Russia as a whole. Some exercises do not show anything, especially since they initially spoke about the reflection of the landing of tactical forces. But whether we can deftly repulse an operational landing, in which several thousand troops will be involved with the support of NATO aviation and other things, I already doubt it very much.

                        As for the ongoing military reform, here is not such a rosy picture as in the exercises; completely different results are manifested here. So, in particular, it is no longer a secret that our brigades of constant readiness have an average of 20-50% of incomplete, that is, in fact, they are no longer brigades of constant readiness: these are brigades of incomplete combat personnel. In order for them to be called brigades of constant readiness, there should be a staffing level of more than 80% in personnel and almost 100% in technology. There is no such thing now. And, as a result, the leadership of the General Staff decided that reinforced battalions would be formed in the structure of these brigades, which would be fully staffed by the dismantling of other brigade units. That is, in other words, completely combat-ready formations turn into combat-ready battalions, in which there are unframed units, which, in turn, subject to understaffing, can be turned into brigades ...

                        Thus, we can state that, as a result of the reform, which was initially aimed at creating fully manned combat formations, in reality we received armed forces with understaffed formations and when divisions were already destroyed and reformatted into brigades. That is, before us is an example of the complete degradation of the Russian armed forces and a demonstration that the ongoing reform has as its final result the destruction of the defense capability of the Russian Federation.

                        Source: km.ru
                      8. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 07
                        0
                        KM, one of the yellowest newspapers is ridiculous. Neighing
                      9. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 10: 12
                        +2
                        Quote: Pimply

                        KM, one of the yellowest newspapers is funny

                        This is more and more to answer as opposed to NOTHING !!! You can continue to lobby and talk about the success and correctness of Serdyukov's decisions. By the way, you are also from St. Petersburg, you’re not sitting on his salary for an hour lol
                      10. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 17
                        0
                        Why, there is that. It’s just not a source. You are quoting a yellow-yellow newspaper. Not understanding the essence of the issue.
                      11. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 10: 01
                        +1
                        Horses, people mingled in a heap ... As if understaffed lich. composition is a separate problem. Bringing the headcount in line with the composition is a separate step. And BTG (battalion tactical groups) is a worldwide trend. And all this is connected together only with a cry about "collapse".
                      12. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 11: 42
                        0
                        Quote: Pimply
                        I don't care if Iveco is or another car. There would be a high-quality Russian car of a similar class - high-quality, normal, protecting a soldier, with anti-mine normal protection - would tear for it

                        that's just what they say, instead of an incomprehensible machine, to refine their samples, leaving money in their hands, + the ability to deliver in another country in the future, and develop the topic, and not take something without getting into it, an extremely strange situation - the Ministry of Defense no longer throws KB and NPO OPK - as with Lynx - they gave to the Tiger formed some requirements, when the machine was ready, changed, - if they didn’t suit them ... and here - Iveco!)))) )) and so with many weapons, it’s either the AK is out of date, the SVD isn’t Shotgun, then the T-90 sucks, but the BMP coffin ..... you need to formulate tasks and requirements in time, and take them into service no later than 20- 30 years, and with the advent of qualitatively new reliable samples, and they only crush their own .... Rogozin correctly said that the warriors across the Foreign Countries are not fucked - designers should do this ..... they are unlikely to miss someone else’s rollback, and cram their into the dark closet
                      13. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 54
                        -1
                        The vehicle is very understandable, it is used in combat conditions by 10 countries. If it is incomprehensible to you, this does not mean that it is not understood by everyone and is not needed by anyone. At the moment there is no car of this class in Russia. And it will not be in serial form in the next couple of years. And she is needed not tomorrow, but now. Because cars in the Caucasus are torn and fired on regularly. Do you prefer to plug the holes with the lives of soldiers and the Mad in Russia label? I don't want that.

                        On the Tiger, no one except the Arabs formed a demand.

                        After the Arabs broke off cooperation, the car was shoved by the Moscow Region.

                        MO ordered a car for the third booking class. What did not stop at this did not stop. Now it’s already what time 6A is trying to do. And what, do you see the real result?


                        AK - out of date. T90 in its current form - sucks. BMP - coffin. Life has changed; living in the past is very problematic.
                      14. leon-iv
                        leon-iv 18 October 2012 12: 41
                        0
                        T90 in its current form - sucks
                        What about 92 g about 2006 or MC?
                      15. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 55
                        0
                        I'm exaggerating a little. But I hope you understand that.
                      16. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 12: 52
                        0
                        then everything is clear))))))))))))))))) You do not accidentally Serdyukov and Makarov in one person !?)))))))))))) AK-74M - a normal barrel, in any In this case, I don’t argue that there are both AEK and ABAKAN, but this is not the lot of the whole army, but of certain units, you can’t call T-90 the latest modernization, given that competitors only upgrade their tanks like us, without creating anything fundamentally new, + they have been advertising since the age of 91 on news all over the world, but nonetheless Abrams are also burning, and even 30 mm from burning when they get into the APU .. the current will help us, only it is not known what)))) BMP-3 - a coffin !? I do not agree, although it was supposed to massively replace the cars of the previous series from the 90s to the 2000s, but as always, someone didn’t like it, then there is no money ... considering that this car is 20 years old, it’s very important to this day, but we will already wait for Kurganets
                      17. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 13: 03
                        +1
                        Yeah. Such a normal trunk. And the normal barrel is Lee Enfield 1904, which, however, does not make it a modern weapon.
                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        and AEK and ABAKAN -
                        AEK and ABAKAN also live in the last century.

                        Horrible ergonomics, lack of modern materials, lack of interchangeability of parts, etc.

                        T90 We will remember why they make Armata instead of the T90, or will we pass right away? Abrams showed themselves so normally on average. And they went through modernization for battles in urban areas.


                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        BMP-3

                        Coffin. What the military has said more than once.
                      18. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 13: 20
                        0
                        the military are like Makarov !? do not insult people in uniform .... it is still far from Armata, the T-90 is a worthy machine, regarding the "last century" - the blaster has not yet been invented, and more or less modern small arms are not particularly different from AK ... - about accuracy - it is necessary to drive the fighters to the shooting range, and not to the potato and construction sites ... many foreign military appreciate the same AK ... so this is all populism about the best samples of AR American is not reliable and capricious, but accurate, and with the AK-74M they also shoot for sure, though it does not go crazy and does not fail over trifles ...
                      19. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 13: 28
                        0
                        Yeah. Not Makarov alone alive.


                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        T-90

                        Especially with a high probability of undermining the ammunition to have a crew in the corpses.


                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        you have to drive fighters to the shooting range,

                        It is necessary. And you need a new machine.


                        Quote: Dart Weyder
                        AR American is not reliable and capricious, but accurate,

                        Do not repeat silly words of others. I used Arku, in different forms, for three years. Her unreliability is greatly exaggerated.

                        Lee Anfield 1904 is also reliable and accurate. Which does not make him a weapon that meets modern requirements. Suggest continuing to live in the past?
                      20. Dart weyder
                        Dart weyder 18 October 2012 20: 00
                        -1
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Especially with a high probability of undermining the ammunition to have a crew in corpses

                        Well, it’s like the T-90s haven’t been carried like that yet, and on the other hand, no Western tank has met its own kind, with the same T-90, and T-72 in the modifications of the latter, and did not fall under intensive shelling from anti-tank weapons, just if you put the main battle tanks in the same conditions - then it will show, and so on - ranting .... if the cumulative stream gets into the inhabited compartment - the crew no longer cares whether the BC will explode or the tank will remain intact
                      21. Pimply
                        Pimply 19 October 2012 08: 32
                        0
                        T90 and in the fighting did not particularly participate. And to know the flaws, it is not necessary to carry the car - they have been known for a long time, especially taking into account the fact that, in comparison with the T-72, the lineup did not change much
                      22. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 13: 44
                        +1
                        Armata will be shown to us after the New Year, though not in the MBT version (this is summer), but the heavy BMP and ARVs will be shown. As for the T-90, I partially agree. Quite a decent export machine, especially SM. Only in comparison with Armata ... as byte not really. And it makes no sense to equip them with "heavy" brigades. It will remain until the development of the resource and the limit of modernization in TB of all kinds of hoofed animals. Together with the T-72, which will also be upgraded, while it is suitable for "low intensity", and then "for reforging".
                      23. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 13: 47
                        0
                        Something tells me that they will focus on Namer with Ahzarit. The engine in the front of Armata?
                      24. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 14: 00
                        0
                        The intent, of course, had in mind, considering the experience of using both you and us. But MTO on the back of the Armata. Do not believe the pictures from Izvestia. bully
                      25. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 14: 01
                        +1
                        I don’t believe it. "Izvestiya is generally like a curse. I’m wondering how they’ll get out. They’ll be fooled into the bottom of it, or do they use a smaller engine like on Akhzar? After all, as far as I understand, the exit is planned through the aparel?
                      26. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 14: 37
                        +1
                        I can’t answer directly. Let's just say, in one of the assumptions you guessed right.
                        Although it is for the BMP that the layout option with the rear MTO is debatable, but now they decided that there will be more benefits from it. Although the option with the front MTO was even tested (not MBT), but they stopped at the rear.
                      27. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 14: 41
                        0
                        Well, judging by the usual problems with small size, I would put it to the bottom, and additional protection is obtained.
                        Quote: nagual
                        option with front MTO

                        I think it just scares them 8)
                        By the way, what is the topic with the purchase of Boxer?
                      28. nagual
                        nagual 18 October 2012 15: 02
                        +1
                        Boxers are looking at interesting design solutions, again security. Nobody will change the "boomerang" for a boxer. But nemchura has to talk her teeth - otherwise they won't let her drink. wink
                        PS: Oh, I see the interfax has already been marked by a "sensation"! Now they will scream again, about polymers and so on. Let them exercise. It's even helpful. laughing
                      29. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 15: 08
                        0
                        Already, already yelling.
                        I think that here the most likely desire is to get hold of modern light armor as well - it just might in the light of the problems of Kurgan. The Germans, judging by the reviews, it is very good.
          3. leon-iv
            leon-iv 18 October 2012 10: 22
            0
            this is a UG which they really don't like to ride.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 31
              0
              About which one - it’s not entirely clear from the answer tree
              1. leon-iv
                leon-iv 18 October 2012 10: 42
                0
                Et I about a water worker had the "luck" 1 time to ride along the forest paths. Hodovka and engine are good but here's the rest. ...
                If you cut it in normal, then for reconnaissance it will not be bad, but for now UG.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 44
                  0
                  It was enough for me to look at his doors and imagine how, in which case, fighters from the unloading would get out of there.

                  The Kazakhs, as I understand it, ordered two batches. One 16, the other 18 pieces. The first batch was killed very quickly. So much so that they abandoned the second.
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 18 October 2012 07: 37
          0
          The Hindus, with whom the Ukrainians cooperated, are a major producer of various types of armor and armored vehicles, they have considerable experience in this field.
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 07: 47
            0
            And what about the Urals, you say, everything is bad, but IVECO wink
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 00
              +2
              You understand that these machines

              a) OTHER CLASS
              b) DO NOT TEST

              They must first pass the test. Then - go to the series.

              No? You cannot understand that the unit should have both Iveco-class vehicles and such MRAPs (also, by the way, "Typhoon") which ADDITION the line of mine-protected vehicles. And the unit should have lighter SUVs, and heavier BMPs.

              At the moment, there are only one mine-protected machines in the series - the Italian Lynx, which has performed well in Afghanistan, and will obviously be in demand in the Caucasus, where the combined arms units will now begin to operate again. Are you ready to pay the lives of soldiers with the expectation that the holding of Mr. Deripaska, who is also not alien to kickbacks, will bring the Tiger to mind?

              Or are they ready for the Ministry of Defense to buy "Shot", which you can normally leave the hell, and which will become a coffin for soldiers in an easy way, and even rusts sharply and breaks down - ask the army of Kazakhstan, which, having bought Shots, abruptly refused the second batch - there they are all out of order.

              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 08: 04
                +1
                Quote: Pimply
                They must first pass the test. Then - go to the series

                About tests with centaurs, remember the article?
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 13
                  0
                  Which one? Here the cry of Yaroslavna regularly costs
                  1. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 08: 23
                    -1
                    Quote: Pimply
                    Here the cry of Yaroslavna regularly costs

                    Not only cry, but I support your support for Italian armored vehicles and screams much louder than crying !!!
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 18 October 2012 08: 31
                      0
                      I don't like Centaurs. I consider them useless, to be honest. Pointless car. Is that for the landing
        3. urzul
          urzul 18 October 2012 09: 29
          0
          Kamaz, Ural and KRAZ, another car size.
          Especially since yesterday, Kraz has protection only against 7,62, which does not meet the requirements of ours as an MO. With such armor, the Tiger in the circulation of 3000 copies rides.
  2. andrei332809
    andrei332809 18 October 2012 06: 38
    0
    came up with thermophilic pasta. But how will the technology behave during continuous operation in the Arctic, at minus 40?
    I’ll immediately ask you not to make references to fiats that drive through the streets in winter
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 07: 08
      +1
      In Norway, they use, do not cry. As, in general, in Afghanistan, where in winter and in the mountains there is far from a resort

      In Russia, the first operators noted that the car starts up regularly at -30.
      1. Demon_Ex
        Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 15: 15
        0
        Well, if Norway had its own military auto industry, then they would use their cars. Dear, did you try to start a diesel engine on our diesel fuel at -30?
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 18 October 2012 15: 17
          0
          Quote: Demon_Ex
          Dear, did you try to start a diesel engine on our diesel fuel at -30?



          Quote: Pimply
          In Russia, the first operators noted that the car starts up regularly at -30.


          Did I answer your question?
          1. Demon_Ex
            Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 16: 00
            0
            In the forms for adoption in service, they can even write that grandmother is grandfather! Diesel Iveco has always been capricious in the cold. Or say that they crammed a heating boiler under mine protection?
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 19: 01
              0
              They say that the answer is from real exploitation in Russia, but you still - your forehead against the wall
              1. Demon_Ex
                Demon_Ex 19 October 2012 02: 41
                0
                You can say anything! You want to take it into service. If you personally brought Rys to frost, then you can still believe it. And so all these are just bare words.
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 19 October 2012 08: 33
                  0
                  Friend, listen, can you join the army? And then you tell us the true truth. If it won’t start, I will obey, word of honor
  3. arthur_hammer
    arthur_hammer 18 October 2012 06: 59
    0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPQ68_kjqqU

    good example)))))
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 07: 04
      0
      A very old film of the first tests of the Tiger and armored in the 6A class of Iveco. For a long time, the snow plow was delivered, and new tests were passed, and the topic was discussed a hundred times, where, how and for what the other machine is needed - and you post all the old videos. And if you show the video, where the Tiger did not fit on a slope of 20 degrees?
  4. Pit
    Pit 18 October 2012 07: 20
    +3
    In any case, no matter how "beautiful" foreign technology is, it
    and will remain overseas. In case of conflict with a NATO country
    we completely lose the opportunity to repair it, and, accordingly,
    use. It is not logical to buy the equipment of a potential enemy.
  5. understudy
    understudy 18 October 2012 08: 27
    +3
    Only a frank enemy can make a decision on such mass purchases of dubious suitability for our conditions and very expensive iron. Vrazhina or a subject vitally interested in concluding contracts with foreign companies.
    1. Jin
      Jin 18 October 2012 11: 28
      +1
      I strongly agree with you and with Pit
  6. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 18 October 2012 09: 14
    0
    And I liked the article - everything is painted well enough ...
    Personally, I also think that horseradish Lynx is not needed in the Russian army, and especially Centaurs unfinished ...
    And the very concept of these newfangled brigades was invented from the special perversion of someone’s brain ...
    I was glad if it was ordinary stupidity, but I suspect that all the same wrecking ...
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 30
      0
      Why not? wink
  7. Averias
    Averias 18 October 2012 09: 23
    0
    It seems that this is an attempt to integrate with Cosa Nostra. Mafiosi from Italy realized that there wasn’t much money to be cut off in the fashion business (as in past times), so they decided to joke, maybe it will burn out :)))
  8. Strashila
    Strashila 18 October 2012 09: 48
    +1
    South Africa ... using the experience of the Indian company Mahindra & Mahindra, South Africans decided to transfer their Casspir to the Ural platform. According to one of the representatives of the company of the manufacturer of military vehicles Johan Stein, the new Casspir Mk 6 cost almost 30% cheaper than all previous counterparts. And this despite the fact that the technical characteristics and functional base of the machine only improved and supplemented. The Casspir Mk 6 has a 6x6 wheeled version, which makes it even more maneuverable on the roads of South Africa. The weight of the car increased to 14320 kg, but this did not affect the increased cross-country ability of the car and the safety of personnel. To read the news feed, many people are trying to work with South Africa using this technique, one of the latest reports is the work of the Arabs, the Saudi armored personnel carrier Al-Masmak. the basis can be taken from the technique of the pacifist country and ignore the technique of the past war.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 09: 59
      0
      Typhoon is being developed on the basis of the Urals. Italians can hardly be called pacifists, over the past ten years they participated in three wars, and the same Lynx is used in combat conditions by a dozen countries.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 10: 03
        0
        Quote: Pimply
        Italians can hardly be called pacifists, for the last ten years they participated in three wars,

        BRAVO, Ahahahaha ................. The Italian military bribed the Taliban
        16.10.2009 - 16: 34
        One of the leaders of the Taliban movement and two Afghan officials confirmed the information that appeared on the eve that the Italian special services regularly paid militants to provide security in the region controlled by the Italian contingent of NATO. An unofficial bilateral agreement has been in place since early 2008, a Taliban spokesman said. Afghan officials have confirmed they were aware of this. They also added that a similar scheme of a kind of cooperation between the rebels and the Italian NATO contingent operated in other parts of the country, in particular, in Herat. We will remind, on October 15, the British newspaper The Times, citing sources in NATO, reported that the Taliban leaders received money from the special services for maintaining the appearance of calm in those areas of Afghanistan, the security of which was supposed to be ensured by the Italian military personnel. According to the newspaper, it was the practice of bribery of militants that led in August 2008 to the deaths of ten French servicemen, who replaced the Italian contingent in the area of ​​the city of Sarobi, 65 kilometers east of Kabul, but did not receive any information about the methods of his work. At the same time, the Italian government categorically denied all media accusations. Defense Minister Ignacio la Russa said he considered the claims "absolute nonsense." The representative of the Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi also said that the head of the government of the country did not give an order on any payments to the militants, writes Telegraf.by.
        1. nagual
          nagual 18 October 2012 10: 10
          +1
          Well so we also agreed with spirits. The truth is not mess. In my opinion, this does not prove anything.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 14
            0
            There is still a moment. If such information is real, it is usually duplicated from several sources, and pops up in the form of an investigation. This is so, by the way. Only I can not understand how this applies to the subject wink To the fact that there are Afghanistan and Italians? 8))
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 12
          +1
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Taliban spokesman said


          Yeah, that's nice. Tell me, do you often quote the Kavkaz Center?
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 10: 22
            0
            Here it is the "Caucasus Center" segodnia.ru ›content / 16452 but I look at you even with ... God's dew in your eyes
          2. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 10: 23
            0
            Here it is the "Caucasus Center" ntv.ru ›novosti / 178121 / but I look at you even with ... all God's dew in the eyes
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 34
              -1
              Yeah. And again - it really was confirmed, were there any facts, an investigation? Because when there is really something, in fact there is an investigation. And the heads fly. At least the lower ranks, as in the scandal with Abu Ghraib. But again - this is not related to the topic. So - were you attracted to the mention of Italians and Afghanistan?
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 10: 40
                0
                You will answer my questions above or again NOTHING
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 44
                  0
                  To get started, give a coherent second source. Just for fun.
                  1. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 18 October 2012 10: 48
                    0
                    Quote: Pimply

                    To get started, give a coherent second source. Just for fun.

                    Oh, I don’t feel like answering, but NOTHING, yes, Mr. LOBBY wink You get a salary from Serdyukov, it’s useless to give you info, I’m sorry to waste time, I already realized that there will be no answers from you. So one chatter. By the way, the ATGMs laid out that Serdyukov decided to buy some more good shells, you can clearly not answer everything
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 51
                      0
                      Sorry to waste time, lobbyist - all this is wonderful. Only it is difficult for you to cite two intelligible sources. At the moment there is one.
  9. leon-iv
    leon-iv 18 October 2012 10: 27
    0
    Umm, and give a weakly similar selection of tigers?
    March 2007 - bombing at IED in Farah province - roadside bomb - no dead or wounded
    September 2007, also in Farah - undermining reconnaissance columns on IEDs - 3 Special Forces soldiers were slightly injured. The blast occurred under the head of the Lynx
    - On February 23, 2008, the crew of 132 regiment from Cordenon (Fernando Paiano, Pierpaolo Massaro, Diego Todde, Calogero Mignacca and Simone Fornicola) survived the bombing on IEDs. One of the crew members, on his own initiative, sent a letter to Iveco, where he emphasized that soldiers survived thanks to the characteristics of Lynx
    July 10, 2008 west of Afghanistan - ambush for 2 Italian Lynx:
    At 7.45 p.m., two Lynxes were on guard duty to ensure the safety of the Herat base. They were ambushed by the Taliban - they were fired from a Kalashnikov assault rifle and RPG (16/0 Stormo of Martina Franca soldiers: Lieutenant Gabriele Rame, from Benevento, soldier Francesco Manco, from Zollino wounded). Thanks to Lynx's defense, an RPG shot did not result in significant injuries.
    September 3, 2008 - A lynx of francs in the Mohammad Agha area, when returning from patrol, was detonated by a roadside bomb. The back of the car is damaged as a result of the explosion - no one was seriously injured
    September 7, 2008 - a death attack on a car in Herat. No one was seriously injured. Lynx - in the trash
    September 19, 2008 - a roadside mine blast in the Bala Morghab area. 1 seriously injured, 1 - easily
    On October 18, 2008, in Herat, a suicide bomber blew up a car between 2 Lynxes. 5 wounded, no dead
    On March 23, 2009, in a Shindad area, in the province of Herat, an explosive-filled vehicle attacked a Rysey convoy. No one was hurt (Lynx - in the trash)

    IED in Afghanistan for roadside bombs - this is from 15 to 50 kg of self-made explosives (poor quality - therefore, from 15 to 40 percent the same weight as TNT)
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 10: 38
      +1
      The tigers came under fire several times. Two cases are widely known. In one of the cases, the Tiger was badly burned inside - two RPGs got there. Miraculously, nothing happened. In the second, one of the crew members was punctured and slightly wounded, but in general no one was seriously injured. In fact, it shows the need for armored vehicles, and there are relatively few of them, because there are regular reports of shelling and blasting - and too often the words "so many died" are heard.
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 18 October 2012 10: 57
        0
        Yes, I heard. But about the bombings, even a little.
        And armored vehicles are VERY needed, and different for the BB, MVD, FSB alone (I hope SPM-3 will pass the test quickly)
        and for the sun different because different tasks have different requirements.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 01
          0
          Yes, tasks often overlap.

          As for the bombings - just get into the news. For example.

          As a result of the blasting of a UAZ police car in the Achkhoy-Martan district of Chechnya, three law enforcement officers were injured, the press center of the Russian Interior Ministry said. Earlier it was about two injured policemen.

          Another security official died in a terrorist attack. The incident occurred today, August 27, at about 08:00 Moscow time near the village of Bamut. A police car was blown up on an unidentified explosive device.

          One more. 10.08.2012/XNUMX/XNUMX.

          Four policemen were injured in an armored personnel carrier in the Sunzhensky district of Chechnya, a law enforcement source told RIA Novosti on Friday.
          "The explosion occurred at approximately 15.40:XNUMX pm Moscow time on a country road between the settlements of Asinovskaya and Bamut. According to preliminary information, an armored personnel carrier carrying riot policemen sent to Chechnya was blown up by a radio-controlled land mine. As a result, four employees of the internal affairs bodies received shrapnel wounds. interlocutor of the agency.
          1. leon-iv
            leon-iv 18 October 2012 11: 12
            0
            Yes, tasks often overlap.
            Yeah, they may or may not. For example, the Ministry of Internal Affairs does not need amphibianism?
            And the sun is better mobility and maneuverability than security because the roads are mining.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 23
              0
              The sun is now increasingly operating in cities.
              Need a fleet of cars.
              When I served, we had in our company:
              SUVs lightly armored for patrols
              Conventional Hammers for Field Intelligence
              BTR M113 with 82 mm mortars
              Hammers are armored
              BTR M113 for war and combat operations
              Armored Safari Truck
              And the same ambulance based on Hammer, light patrol truck, cargo Hammers, etc. etc.

              And we were considered motorized infantry, to us still, in which case, attached tanks and huge armored bulldozers

              But the guys from the infantry units had in their assets still heavy armored personnel carriers and ATVs

              Now there is an even wider fleet of vehicles.
              1. leon-iv
                leon-iv 18 October 2012 11: 36
                0
                Need a fleet of cars.
                Here xs I am against such a zoo in the sun
                in VV yes it is necessary, and VV will be a smut with logistics.
                + How far was the company torn from the main base?
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 11: 48
                  0
                  Differently. Depended on the situation. It happened according to the situation that for several weeks - when they were sitting in the Scheme (Nablus) during the Defense Wall.
                  1. leon-iv
                    leon-iv 18 October 2012 12: 08
                    0
                    Here, according to the situation, it happened that for several weeks - when during the Protective Wall in Scheme (Nablus) they were sitting
                    And in how many kilometers did you go and was there an emergency hap repair?
                    By the way, in our conditions, quadriga slag is either motorcycles or snowmobiles (for winter) if you mean patrols.
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 14
                      0
                      Honestly - I do not remember. Repair crews operated separately. Some cars were regularly taken out of the city for inspection - on average, a wheeled vehicle had to pass an inspection once a week.

                      Recently, a military delegation arrived from Russia just on this topic - the experience of adopting
                      1. leon-iv
                        leon-iv 18 October 2012 12: 40
                        0
                        Repair crews operated separately.
                        And how did they hide behind on the march?
                        Recently, a military delegation arrived from Russia just on this topic - the experience of adopting
                        Bandtaburetki on suction only footcloths, only kirsa, only hadcore !!!!
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 51
                        0
                        Yes, the repair cars were all at the same base. There were reentry armored personnel carriers, tankers had evacuation tanks, etc.

                        With logistics in general - there was a separate topic. I, like a company orderly, had such a load on my topics that I did not go into it then.
  10. grizzlir
    grizzlir 18 October 2012 10: 46
    0
    There have already been many discussions about procurement and joint projects with Iveco or the same Mistral BDK. All this is already bothering. Themes are beaten to holes. My personal opinion is to purchase the latest technologies and individual copies to possess the latest technologies. Yes and no one is industrial espionage I didn’t cancel it, let the SVR work. But no matter how much we discuss here, how the government decides, it will and the opinion of the military will not even be taken into account. The government has its own interests. Often very far from the interests of the country's defense.
  11. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 18 October 2012 11: 59
    0
    There are more and more indisputable signs that the hasty acquisition of MO from Iveco of a large batch of Lynx vehicles and the expressed interest in purchasing 8x8 wheeled armored vehicles in the same place are a grandiose SCAM. as a result of which huge state financial resources were "mastered", and the result obtained is more than DOUBT, if not frankly speaking. And the authors of the SCAM (swindlers), even if they are in uniform with big stars, should be brought to justice before they do more! It is impossible for such "figures" to deal with the issues of Russia's security!
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 02
      0
      Quote: Goldmitro
      that the hasty acquisition of MO from Iveco of a large batch of Lynx cars

      Prove it. At least, for a start, call me a serial Russian armored car with mine protection.
    2. Pit
      Pit 18 October 2012 12: 07
      +1
      Grandfather Stalin is simply not
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 12
        +1
        Grandfather Stalin actively bought foreign equipment and machines. On the chassis of the Christie tank, a license was purchased, for example, purchased Rolls-Royce engines. There are hundreds of examples in practice.
        1. leon-iv
          leon-iv 18 October 2012 12: 28
          +2
          and this is not counting the purchase of WHOLE factories with specialists from the damned imperialists. Stalin was pragmatic to the core.
          1. Pit
            Pit 18 October 2012 12: 32
            0
            So he thought about the country, not about his personal pocket.
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 37
              0
              First of all, he thought about absolute power. Therefore, he thoroughly interrupted all competitors, after which he strengthened his cult of personality, and arranged a very tangible terror. As experience shows, the development of a country and thoughts about it can do without what Stalin arranged.
              1. Demon_Ex
                Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 13: 25
                0
                And without Stalin, there would not have been Israel so beloved by you. And under Stalin, your grandfathers won the Great Patriotic War!
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 18 October 2012 13: 34
                  -1
                  Quote: Demon_Ex

                  And without Stalin, there would not have been Israel so beloved by you.

                  How to know. And without Hitler, it might also not have been. Or maybe he would. Because the existence of the state is not determined by the decision of the General Assembly, and its recognition by other states, the creation of institutions of power, and internal opportunities for their own protection and development.

                  Quote: Demon_Ex
                  your grandfathers won the Great Patriotic War!

                  Exactly. Which does not detract from the colossal mistakes made by him at the initial stage, as well as the blood bath that he had committed before. Grandfathers won the war, yes. And at what cost - this too should not be forgotten, part of this price is on it.
                  1. Demon_Ex
                    Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 13: 55
                    0
                    We did not live at that time and do not know everything! So, we shouldn't, at least for 2 generations, argue about what we haven't seen or participated in. Believe Solzhnitsyn and others like them .... this is also not reliable sources. I just knew enough old people, and none of them talked about "black crows", and the most affectionate word addressed to dissidents was kurva. And at all times the king was made by the retinue!
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 18 October 2012 14: 00
                      -1
                      Solzhenitsyn may not be believed. I believe in my maternal grandmother. Whose grandfather died in the camp. And the father, whose grandmother was miraculously dragged out in the 37th, for the purchase, very serious - that’s already. And there are lists, documents, archives. And there are a lot of them. And I also know that another great-grandfather signed such lists, being the chairman of the district committee.
                      Solzhenitsyn is a separate issue. But life is much dirtier.
                      1. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 14: 11
                        0
                        Lists, archives. It was always and everywhere. Unfortunately we will never look into them. All documents in one way or another shedding the truth for those days have long been destroyed. The dictates of power have always been! Try to hook now someone from those in power. A hearse or zone is provided, in all countries. Because no one likes the truth about himself and his actions!
                      2. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 14: 15
                        -1
                        You were not in the archives. And no pompous phrases
                      3. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 14: 23
                        0
                        You weren’t there either. And if there were, then they saw only declassified materials specially used for informational stuffing. And where did you find flatulence?
                      4. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 14: 24
                        -1
                        And there’s a plot everywhere.
                        Quote: Demon_Ex
                        All documents in one way or another shedding the truth for those days have long been destroyed. The dictates of power have always been! Try to hook now someone from those in power. A hearse or zone is provided, in all countries.


                        Life, as a rule, is much more prosaic and simpler.
                      5. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 14: 35
                        0
                        Yes, much easier. So you do not complicate it!
                      6. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 14: 41
                        0
                        So I, as it were, do not complicate. I do not like conspiracy theories.
                      7. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 14: 46
                        +1
                        Dear, what are the conspiracies? At present, the usual chopping cabbage, more and juicier.
                      8. Pimply
                        Pimply 18 October 2012 14: 47
                        -1
                        Therefore, all archives are fiction.
                      9. Demon_Ex
                        Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 14: 54
                        0
                        Of course, a temptation for journalists. And the president of Russia is an alien.
            2. leon-iv
              leon-iv 18 October 2012 12: 38
              0
              So you tell me Iveco protects better:
              from bullet
              from IED
              Than tiger. About 6a can you not talk while this is just a prototype?
              If you would have to travel to the Caucasus to choose Security or conditional patriotism?
  12. Pit
    Pit 18 October 2012 12: 06
    0
    Goldmitro, Stalin’s grandfather is not enough.
  13. Pit
    Pit 18 October 2012 12: 47
    0
    On patriotism, mountains are being turned down, and security without ideology leads to cowardice. And these Iveco have already cheated as they could, so partiism is preferable.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 12: 56
      0
      Preferred before what? Are you hiding from bullets and mines?
  14. rennim
    rennim 18 October 2012 13: 27
    0
    I do not understand the Russian Defense Ministry .... Even the Pentagon refused to purchase wheeled vehicles with the exception of the Hammers. Almost all motorized infantry brigades sit on caterpillars ... How much can people spend stupidly money ... what light brigades they sit from each window with RPGs. Has the experience of Chechnya and Georgia really taught nothing? How much can you make all kinds of rubbish .... Maybe just upgrade or design new BRDM and armored personnel carriers ...
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 13: 35
      0
      Quote: rennim
      Even the Pentagon refused to purchase wheeled vehicles with the exception of the Hammers. Almost all motorized infantry brigades sit on tracks.

      Can you tell me more?
    2. Demon_Ex
      Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 13: 38
      +3
      All this kickbacks and money laundering. Example: the supply of military units with electricity, previously payment and control of consumed electricity was carried out by the services of KECh and paid a standard tariff. At this time, KEChs have been abolished and they use specially created intermediaries to supply electricity. They buy electricity at one rate and sell it to military units at another. And who are the owners of intermediaries ....? Correctly!
  15. Pinochet000
    Pinochet000 18 October 2012 14: 23
    +1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mYh2B14XxFc проходимость тигр, ивеко.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rJcEia1CM1E
    undermining iveko, opened all the hatches, xs how the crew will feel after this.
    Fuck does not need this miracle, IMHO, you have to do your own

    http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=591&p=3 пост №68
    Tiger family.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 14: 31
      0
      Do you know that hatches open to deflect a blast wave?

      I brought your video a little, from last year, when the Tiger was just such a slope of 20 degrees, I could not overcome.
      1. Pinochet000
        Pinochet000 18 October 2012 14: 56
        +1
        Quote: Pimply
        Do you know that hatches open to deflect a blast wave?

        As if yes, in the know, only this means that the shock wave
        penetrated into the BO (Salon) and the crew will receive severe shell shock (flesh to death) .... and if under the bottom or M15, M19 mines under the wheel with 9.9 and 9.5 kg of explosives, respectively. A very dubious advantage over the tiger for that kind of money. + The question on cross remains open. All this is my personal opinion.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 18 October 2012 15: 05
          -1
          Yeah. Only more often, according to statistics, homemade bombs of up to 6-8 kg are used. And they are laid from the edge of the road. More powerful land mines are a rarity.

          On the same Lynx, tests were conducted with dummies with sensors, just on this topic. The mannequin remained alive and did not receive dangerous injuries.
          1. Pinochet000
            Pinochet000 18 October 2012 16: 54
            +1
            Quote: Pimply
            homemade bombs up to 6-8 kg are used

            Okay, but will she survive 8kg? In the sense of the crew ...... I say again, fuck is not needed in the RF Armed Forces, personal opinion .....
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 19: 02
              0
              But this is a question - where there will be an explosion. The company guarantees 6 kg under the wheel. Reviews about the operation so far positive
  16. understudy
    understudy 18 October 2012 14: 34
    0
    Quote: Pimply
    It’s pointless to buy these cars now, when in three years Kurganets should replace them.

    I suppose it was said about "Lynx"?

    Quote: Dart Weyder
    but as always, someone did not like it, then there is no money ...

    Ohhhh! We have money - chickens do not peck


    Moscow, October 18 - AIF-Moscow. Vladimir Sergeyev, Director of the Department of International Organizations of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation, said that Russia has written off debts of African countries by more than $ 20 billion.
    According to Sergeyev, Russia also contributed $ 50 million to the World Bank for the poorest countries. This assistance will most of all be directed to the development of the sub-sugar region of Africa, RIA Novosti informs.
    From 2008 to 2012, the Russian Federation allocated almost $ 43 million to the World Bank program to improve the quality of education in developing countries.
    “Now over eight thousand African students are studying at Russian universities and about half of them are on a budget program,” Sergeyev said.
    Funds allocated by the Russian Federation in 2011 were allocated to help Ethiopia, Somalia, the Republic of Guinea, Kenya and Djibouti.
    http://www.aif.ru/society/news/229621

    North Korea, Libya and other countries are also forgiven.
    At the APEC summit, more than twenty billion, at the Olympics necessary for Putin, over thirty billion dollars. (with)
    ____________________________________


    Quote: Varnaga
    Afftar-Natural Foolishness

    Has it really been said by someone who makes comments for violating the rules of the Forum? I do not believe!
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2012 14: 46
      0
      Quote: Understudy
      I suppose it was said about "Lynx"?

      No. Because there is a need for Lynx right now, and for a long time, in the Caucasus - there are no mine vehicles, and this machine will be in demand for a long time, it is not yesterday's car.
      But the BMD-4M need is purely theoretical. And in all respects she is a ghost of the past.

      Quote: Understudy
      Moscow, October 18 - AIF-Moscow. Vladimir Sergeyev, Director of the Department of International Organizations of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation, said that Russia has written off debts of African countries by more than $ 20 billion.

      These are bad debts. Just like with the DPRK. A good mine in the absence of a real opportunity to return the grandmother. The question is whether they managed to tear at least something, such as concessions. Although it is unlikely - debt write-offs in Russia are doing mediocre - and even something can be squeezed out of such a situation.
      1. Demon_Ex
        Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 15: 00
        0
        What's the difference in what to burn? In "Pokemon" or "Lynx", that is the question! The land mine will obviously not be equivalent to 6 kilograms.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 18 October 2012 15: 10
          0
          85-90 percent of military units on which convoys in Afghanistan and Iraq are undermined were within these limits. The use of armored vehicles dramatically reduced the number of deaths among coalition soldiers.
          1. Demon_Ex
            Demon_Ex 18 October 2012 15: 32
            0
            What have you got along about the "a la America aka Israel" type of peace, like guerrilla warfare. In a large-scale war, where all types of weapons will be used, this "Lynx" is fucking unnecessary. Or is Russia going to invade somewhere? What would then be blown up by land mines? And from an anti-tank mine, no anti-mine bottom will save! You rely on your experience of the war during the intifada, dear. I personally flew from the armor after detonation, and I can say that only those who are outside, if not caught by a blast wave, survive!
            1. Pimply
              Pimply 18 October 2012 19: 03
              0
              Russia, for a moment, is fighting very actively at home. And maybe you live in the clouds, but in the Caucasus almost every day one of the security forces is blown up or shot.
              1. Demon_Ex
                Demon_Ex 19 October 2012 02: 43
                0
                So not the troops are fighting, but the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Do not compare the ass with your finger!
                1. Pimply
                  Pimply 19 October 2012 08: 34
                  0
                  If you were following the situation, you would know that the troops began to be actively involved in military operations. In addition, the region has a base. And the militants do not care who to blow up - the army or the cops
                  1. Demon_Ex
                    Demon_Ex 19 October 2012 10: 41
                    0
                    Actively, how is it? Cover the greenery with a battery of company mortars, or comb it with a chain? You yourself saw what kind of dances with tambourines take place during the elimination of militants? Where one "bumblebee" decides, they catch up with a company of special forces of the explosives. And the guys never die! All because of the jerk commanders. Only you forgot that the anti-terrorist campaign ended long ago, the army does not have the right to participate in hostilities on its territory, and the soldiers involved in the cordon cannot be considered an active use of the army. IEDs are detonated in cities, not convoys. The militants' mission changed from fighting the army to intimidating the civilian population. With your words, you will have to transfer everyone to the "Rysey" (traffic police, patrol service, OVO and all police authorities).
                    1. Pimply
                      Pimply 19 October 2012 11: 29
                      0
                      I didn’t see it, I participated in dances with tambourines.
                      Quote: Demon_Ex
                      Only you forgot that the anti-terrorist campaign ended long ago, the army does not have the right to participate in hostilities on its territory and the soldiers involved in the cordon cannot be considered an active use of the army. IEDs are detonated in cities, not convoys. The militants' mission changed from fighting the army to intimidating the civilian population. With your words, we will have to transfer everyone to the "Rysey" (traffic police, patrol police, OVO and all police authorities).


                      On paper - over, in fact - special forces drive. And now they will drive combined arms.

                      IEDs explode both in cities and on access roads - wherever potential targets pass by.

                      About transplanting everyone - it would be nice, at least in such areas.
  17. atesterev
    atesterev 18 October 2012 16: 47
    0
    It seems to me that the army should, firstly, determine promising strategic and operational goals. Based on these goals, it should set promising tasks for the tactical link. Further, on the basis of tactical developments, TK is developed for the technique corresponding to the tactical tasks. Then there are contests of the respective companies with the corresponding prototypes on the basis of TK. After that, the winning company (or two) receives a contract for the development of an industrial instance, which, accordingly, is tested. Next is the experimental series, which is transferred to military operation. And only then a series takes into account the complaints.
    Probably, I’m wrong, in the sense of a long development time, but the bulk of BT was done and is being done like that.
    There are times when you need something "here-and-now", then something is purchased, more or less suitable. but on the basis of it, the army is still working out decisions on the need for this or that modernization or release of new equipment.
    In our country, this system, and so God knows not how it worked, is bent. Our "Fathers-Commanders" make decisions on the "want-not-want" level. And there must be a competent analysis ...
    In general, it is sad from the deeds of our major military leaders!