The state and prospects of the tank forces of Ukraine

Tank T-64BV after one of the later upgrades. Photo "Ukroboronprom"

Just a few months ago, Ukraine had full-fledged tank troops. As part of a number of large formations, there were several hundred tanks of different models, and attempts were made to create new ones. However, then the Ukrainian tank formations became one of the priority targets for forced demilitarization. To date, they have suffered heavy losses, and it is not possible to restore their former numbers and potential.

Troop structure

The current image of the Ukrainian tank forces, as well as the ground forces in general, was formed as a result of several reforms of the last decades. Their result was the abandonment of the old Soviet organizational structure based on divisions and the transition to the brigade principle.

The main formation of the Ukrainian tank forces is the brigade. The typical composition of such a formation includes a headquarters, three tank battalions, mechanized, artillery and other units, as well as platoons, companies and support groups. In addition, in the OShS of the ground forces there are separate tank battalions with mechanized brigades.

At the moment, the ground forces include four linear tank brigades and two reserve ones. There are separate tank battalions or companies in 10-11 mechanized brigades. In most cases, there is only one such unit, but there were exceptions. In addition, there are tank battalions in the Marine Corps and the National Guard.

Destroyed T-64 somewhere in the fields of Donbass, July 2022. Photo by Lost Armor

The Ukrainian tank battalion in the state has about 50 tanks of one model or another. Accordingly, the typical composition of the brigade provides for the presence of approx. 150 combat vehicles. However, the actual number may be lower due to lack of equipment. In addition, the constant problem of the Ukrainian army was and remains the maintenance of the combat capability of the materiel. As a result, the lack of the total amount of equipment is accompanied by a decrease in combat readiness.

Compounds and their equipment

In the Chernihiv region, in the north of Ukraine, the 1st separate tank brigade (1 brigade) is deployed. This formation has the standard three battalions manned by tanks. In service were the old and modernized T-64s of several modifications. In particular, the brigade was the only operator of the T-64BM Bulat vehicles.

The 3rd brigade was stationed in the Khmelnytsky region, the 4th brigade was stationed in the Chernihiv region, and the 17th brigade was stationed in the city of Krivoy Rog. These connections also have a regular structure. At the same time, they had to be equipped with a mixed park. The T-64 tanks of various modifications are simultaneously in service, as well as several versions of the T-72 and T-80.

The reserve includes the 5th and 14th separate tank brigades. It was reported that they do not differ from other compounds in terms of SHS. In addition, a similar mixed approach to equipment acquisition was used. At the same time, older tanks were transferred to the reserve brigades, which were of limited interest to linear formations.

This T-64BV was lucky, it became a trophy and serves the republics. Lost Armor Photos

Two brigades of marines had two battalions with T-64BV and T-80BV tanks. The exact composition of the tank units of the National Guard is unclear, but they were given equipment of various types.

According to The Militaty Balance 2022 reference book, at the beginning of this year, the units of the Ukrainian army had approx. 930 tanks of various models. More than 1100 units. was in reserve. It should also be recalled that from hundreds to thousands of tanks of various types and modifications may be present in storage in one form or another.

The most massive model in the active fleet was the T-64BV. There were 660 such machines, of which 235 have undergone regular repairs and modernization in recent years. The number of newer T-64BMs was estimated at 100 units. Also, 133 T-72 tanks of different versions and less than 30 T-80BV served. There were only a few advertised T-84 Oplots.

Tanks in battle

As is now known, Ukrainian tank brigades were preparing for an offensive in the Donbas at the beginning of the year. However, on February 24, the Russian Special Operation began, and these plans were thwarted. All line teams had to be used in defense. It was also reported on the deployment and combat work of other formations.

So, it is known that the 1st brigade was in the Kiev direction in February-March, after which it was transferred to the Donbass. Then she was taken away for rest and replenishment, and in the summer the connection appeared in the Zaporozhye region. The 3rd and 4th brigades were initially located in the occupied territories of Donbass. Now the remnants of these formations are in the area of ​​Kharkov or withdrawn to the rear. The 17th brigade operated in the southern direction and is now in the Kherson region. and nearby areas.

The wreckage of the Ukrainian T-72B, May 2022. Photo by Lost Armor

In early August, Forbes drew attention to two reserve brigades and drew attention to some features of their work. So, the 5th reserve brigade was in the Odessa region and was preparing to repel the amphibious assault. Having received anti-ship missiles, Ukraine can not be afraid of the landing of Russian marines - and there is an opportunity to transfer tanks to a more important direction. However, this does not happen. At the same time, nothing is reported about the actions of the 14th brigade.

Forbes suggests that the two reserve brigades, at least, do not correspond to the declared number and equipment. It is likely that they actually exist only on paper and are not in a position to conduct combat operations.

Losses and gains

Tanks are predictably a priority target for demilitarizing strikes by the Russian army. According to our Ministry of Defense, to date, Ukrainian formations have lost almost 4300 tanks and armored fighting vehicles of all types.

More details are provided by the Lost Armor project. He reports that about 150 Ukrainian tanks of all types and models have been destroyed since February. Almost 110 armored vehicles became trophies of the Russian army and Donbass militia. It is possible that the project did not calculate all Ukrainian losses, and the number of tanks destroyed or taken as trophies is much higher.

Thus, the total losses of Ukrainian formations are at least 250-260 tanks. This is almost 30% of the known list number of tank units at the beginning of the year. At the same time, it should be remembered that some of the Ukrainian tanks were unsuitable for operation and combat work. Accordingly, the proportion of losses among combat-ready tanks is even higher.

Polish T-72M for Ukraine, April 2022. Photo by Telegram / ChDambiev

250-260 lost armored vehicles would be enough to equip five tank battalions. This is equivalent to one tank brigade and tank units of two mechanized brigades. It is not difficult to understand how such losses affected the overall performance and capabilities of the ground forces.

However, such losses also had positive consequences. So, more than a hundred captured tanks will now replenish the ground forces of the two republics of Donbass. The moral obsolescence of such equipment will be compensated by its quantity - and the overall capabilities of the allied forces will grow.

It should be recalled that in recent months, Ukraine has not only lost tanks, but also received them. Several foreign countries provided her with assistance in the form of a large number of such equipment. So, back in March-April, Poland handed over 230 T-72 tanks of old modifications to the Kyiv regime. Recently it was announced that a number of Polish PT-91s would soon be delivered. In addition, different numbers of tanks were transferred to Ukraine by the Czech Republic and North Macedonia. The intention to provide tanks was expressed by third countries.

Interim results

Just a few months ago, at the beginning of this year, the Ukrainian tank forces had a number of characteristic features. They were distinguished by a rather large number and in this respect surpassed a number of European states. In addition, they had a large stock of equipment potentially suitable for recovery and return to service.

However, there were also negative trends. So, the tank fleet mainly consisted of old and obsolete equipment. In addition, not all vehicles were ready for operation and combat use. As it turned out, there were also problems along the reserve line - the corresponding brigades did not meet the requirements and can only “successfully” work in the deep rear.

Czech military-technical assistance, April 2022. Photo by Telegram / ChDambiev

On February 24, the situation began to change dramatically. In the following months, the Russian army and allied militia of Donbass knocked out a significant part of the Ukrainian tanks, both in the front line and in the rear bases. At the same time, it was the active fleet of first-line equipment that was reduced, which seriously hit the capabilities of the tank troops and the Ukrainian forces as a whole. Such processes continue to this day with clear results.

Foreign aid in the form of Soviet-style tanks generally does not improve Ukraine's situation. Only old and obsolete combat vehicles with limited characteristics are supplied, which are not a difficult target for Russian weapons. It is already known about the destruction of former Polish and Czech tanks - and losses among such equipment will continue to grow.

With all this, the possibilities for replenishing losses are reduced. As a result of demilitarization strikes, Ukraine has practically lost its production capacity for the restoration and modernization of armored vehicles. Mass deliveries from abroad can no longer be expected: potential suppliers have given away almost all the tanks that they could share without harming themselves.

Obvious prospects

Thus, the future of the Ukrainian tank forces is generally clear and predictable. Allied troops will continue to knock out or take trophies of their equipment, as well as destroy or capture personnel. In addition, some Ukrainian servicemen will prefer to surrender, perhaps along with the materiel entrusted to them. Despite assistance from abroad, the number of units and formations will be gradually reduced, and with it the combat capability will continue to fall.

Tanks are of particular importance for the ground forces, and their loss in a certain way will affect the capabilities of all Ukrainian formations. Accordingly, the methodical and systematic destruction of the tank forces of Ukraine, observed in recent months, is becoming one of the key areas in the overall demilitarization.

Comments

[rocket757]

Obvious prospects

So there, in general, it is worth thinking about the prospects for the entire Kukuev regime, and the tanks ... sho with tanks, they will run out, like everything else.

[Shurik70]

But while Kyiv has tanks.
There is also fuel with shells.
And even experienced crews. Little, but there is.
So you gotta keep going

[rocket757]

The operation continues and ... we will see what the results will be.

[Aaron Zawi]

The other day, according to the most conservative estimates that were made at the Very Patritic LostArmour (e), it turns out that thanks to trophies and deliveries from abroad, the Ukrainian armored vehicle fleet practically did not decrease during half a year of the war. 

And they still practically refuse to accept Oryx's data on trophies. Oryx counted 280 captured tanks.

[Speedy]

Only photo and video confirmed losses are counted on the loss. The Russian army, especially in the first half of the company, did not conduct photo and video recording at all, or rather, did not publish or film the army men themselves. Oryx proved himself to be extremely biased, 5 times he gave out one of our losses from different photo videos. How many were beaten by aviation and artillery with missiles is generally not known. In short, the fog of war.

[musketon64]

Quote: Aron Zaavi

.... it turns out that thanks to trophies and deliveries from abroad, the fleet of armored vehicles of Ukraine practically did not decrease during half a year of the war. 

Armored vehicles, and especially tracked vehicles, have a very limited motor resource. We need spare parts, a repair base, replacement of barrels of tank guns, and with this in Ukraine, complete seams. Even before the SVO, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had problems with this and they were engaged in dismantling some tanks in order to bring newer models into combat readiness. Somewhere I saw a published photo of z-yes to them. Malyshev with whole "stacks" of such "undressed" and "shoeed" corps. The Ukrainian industry is already in principle not capable of producing tanks and ammunition, and with known difficulties, the return of a padded BT to service.

Quote: Aron Zaavi

And they still practically refuse to accept Oryx's data on trophies. Oryx counted 280 captured tanks

Trophy tanks in commercial quantities is possible only during offensive operations. And today, the Armed Forces of Ukraine are either retreating or sitting in heroic defense. When retreating, the capture of equipment is practically unlikely, and besides, one’s own padded and abandoned equipment is also lost due to the impossibility of evacuating it from the battlefield. She becomes the trophies of the enemy - NM LDNR and the RF Armed Forces.

[EFIM LYUBIN]

The engine life of the T-72 tank engine in combat conditions is a maximum of 100 hours! This is enough to save weight and combat survivability of the tank, but then repair or replacement is needed.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote: Aron Zaavi

it turns out that thanks to trophies and deliveries from abroad, the fleet of armored vehicles of Ukraine practically did not decrease during half a year of the war.

You wipe your eyes. "Captured" - apparently "captured" by the Armed Forces of Ukraine 34 units. But it is over 600 units captured by our (Russian) troops. What did you want to say with a table?

[djinn_82]

You turn on the brain, or what replaces it, the person just showed that they spread all sorts of leftist tables.

[Vladimir_2U]

Quote from djinn_82

You turn on the brain, or what replaces it, the person just showed that they spread all sorts of leftist tables.

And where did you see in Zavi's comment that the table is "left"? Explain. If you can.

[yaglon]

The table is not bad, but completely incomplete. Where did the PT-91 Tvyardy go, of which, it seems, 238 units were delivered (according to the Ukrainian Wikipedia).

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: yaglon

The table is not bad, but completely incomplete. Where did the PT-91 Tvyardy go, of which, it seems, 238 units were delivered (according to the Ukrainian Wikipedia).

This is still in theory.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

thanks to trophies and deliveries from abroad, the fleet of armored vehicles of Ukraine practically did not decrease during half a year of the war.

If this is so, why then the Armed Forces of Ukraine do not advance, but rather lose their positions? Where are the tank counterattacks by large tank units?

There is none of this.

Oryx counted 280 captured tanks.

If the Armed Forces of Ukraine had at least 10 captured tanks, they would create a company of them and show it every day as propaganda, not to mention hundreds of captured tanks.

The maximum that can be seen from the propagandists of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is single copies of the captured T-80BVM and T-72 B3M.

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

thanks to trophies and deliveries from abroad, the fleet of armored vehicles of Ukraine practically did not decrease during half a year of the war.

If this is so, why then the Armed Forces of Ukraine do not advance, but rather lose their positions? Where are the tank counterattacks by large tank units?

There is none of this.

Oryx counted 280 captured tanks.

If the Armed Forces of Ukraine had at least 10 captured tanks, they would create a company of them and show it every day as propaganda, not to mention hundreds of captured tanks.

The maximum that can be seen from the propagandists of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is single copies of the captured T-80BVM and T-72 B3M.

Attacking an enemy superior in artillery and aviation is fraught. Some of the tanks are in the troops and we see them regularly. Part in the reserve of the General Staff of Ukraine. Part under renovation. By the way, large tank attacks are not very visible from the side of the RA, although it has many more of them.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

Polish and Czech tanks have long been caught at the front and become trophies. This suggests that Ukraine is running out of its own tanks, as well as its own artillery and aviation, and even more so, it does not have captured tanks in large quantities. There are no captured tanks even for a company, but in the LDNR there are really a lot of captured tanks.

And the RA does not conduct a large-scale offensive for the reason that the command believes that even 100 groups are enough to defeat the millionth army of Ukraine, but for this it uses not tanks as a way to break through the front, but artillery and aircraft as a means of destroying enemy manpower and equipment .

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

Polish and Czech tanks have long been caught at the front and become trophies. This suggests that Ukraine is running out of its own tanks, as well as its own artillery and aviation, and even more so, it does not have captured tanks in large quantities. There are no captured tanks even for a company, but in the LDNR there are really a lot of captured tanks.

And the RA does not conduct a large-scale offensive for the reason that the command believes that even 100 groups are enough to defeat the millionth army of Ukraine, but for this it uses not tanks as a way to break through the front, but artillery and aircraft as a means of destroying enemy manpower and equipment .

Well, okay.

[Ryazan87]

Oryx gives the following casualty figures (as of June):
T-72B - 136, of which 42 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
T-72B arr. 1989 - 54, of which 17 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
T-72B3 - 119, of which 47 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
T-73B3 mod. 2016 - 104, of which 48 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
T-80U - 70, of which 24 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
T-80BVM - 26, of which 16 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
Note that slightly damaged vehicles are considered captured.
Among the vehicles captured by Ukrainians, T-90s were also noted.
Oryx is not the most reliable source, has been seen inflating numbers by using different photos of the same tank, for example. But, unfortunately, there are no other alternatives (the reports of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine cannot be taken seriously, there is simply no Russian official information).
Only one thing is clear - the losses of the Russian tank troops are great and there are objective reasons for this:
- a large number of old machines that are in poor technical condition;
- unsuccessful tactical use (especially in the actions of the Taman division it is noticeable, where, it seems, all the basic rules were violated by driving tanks into a wooded area without infantry).
- an abundance of modern anti-tank weapons from the enemy.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

Oryx gives the following casualty figures (as of June):
T-72B - 136, of which 42 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
T-72B arr. 1989 - 54, of which 17 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
T-72B3 - 119, of which 47 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
T-73B3 mod. 2016 - 104, of which 48 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
T-80U - 70, of which 24 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
T-80BVM - 26, of which 16 were captured by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
Note that slightly damaged vehicles are considered captured.
Among the vehicles seized by Ukrainians, T-90s were also noted.

Bullshit.

[Alexander Razin]

So the oryx is a bit untrue. Yes, and the lastomore should not be trusted in this matter - the lostamor transmits only what is securely fixed

[Blackgrifon]

Quote: Aron Zaavi

Oryx for trophies. Oryx counted 280 captured tanks.

As the oryx thinks, we'd better keep silent. He is very, very subjective - his "calculations" are essentially tracing paper from Ukrainian statements now and Azerbaijani ones - during the war in NK.

[Russian soldier]

Who is Oryx? Does he see the daily statement from the BChS of the Armed Forces of Ukraine every day? Or is it sucking data out of your finger? And who does he communicate with in the army? My friend from 1 TA says that the Ukrainians are trying to move forward without tanks. Because the tanks were knocked out. Deliveries of Western tanks and AFVs just came up with that?

[Nexcom]

There is only one perspective - recycling. What is not disposed of is "voentorg".

[Thrifty]

Kirill, they will be overwhelmed with M60s, of which there are hundreds, if not thousands, in storage. The same Leopard 1 can give everything that is not only in storage, but also available in the countries of the bloc to NATO. Another thing is to stop the receipt of equipment, massively destroy repair bases and enterprises. The same Kharkov tank should have been ours for a long time, the Kyiv one was destroyed to the state of ruins. And, the tanks will find something to hand over, this is not a problem.

[Mint Gingerbread]

They can, but they can't. There is a limit to the saturation of the army of another country, when you can cross the line and be recognized as a participant in the conflict with all the ensuing consequences. The hot phase is hardly possible, but it is very possible to strangle it painfully with sanctions. An example of this is the unfortunate turbine.

[Kiril Letov]

Unhappy, she is unhappy. Only according to the German media, their gas storage facilities are 75% full and they will survive the coming winter, given the EU decision to reduce gas consumption by 15% within the EU states. They really had an excess consumption of heat and electricity bordering on sybaritism. For example, the entrance doors to the store with the air conditioning system working properly. Fuck the street then cool. So they will shrink and survive.

[Arseny]

Of course they'll survive. You can not heat visits at all. What does 75% full mean? These are official data and they have been repeated like a mantra for more than a month, and this despite the fact that now there is simply nothing to upload to storage, and consumption has not gone away. Distinguish lies from reality. And people enter and leave the shops, the doors are not always open. No need to voice these fake Western propaganda. The Germans already saved on everything. You have been to their hotels. They have motion sensors everywhere, the light went out into the corridor, there was no movement for three seconds, it turns off. They are already a frugal nation. But if they want to arrange a second Stalingrad for themselves, then the flag is in their hands. Gazprom is now at a minimum gas is almost nothing, 20% of the capacity. So go ahead, save up!!!

[Amateur]

What prospects for tank troops can a country have without prospects?
Or is someone in doubt?

[Aaron Zawi]

Half a year ago, this was already voiced.

[Amateur]

Half a year ago, this was already voiced.

Mr Zaavi! You are there at home with the Palestinians sort it out. And here we will decide.

[Aaron Zawi]

Quote: Amateur

Half a year ago, this was already voiced.

Mr Zaavi! You are there at home with the Palestinians sort it out. And here we will decide.

I'm not trying to decide something for you. Just a forum et memto to exchange views.

[Amateur]

Totally agree with you. Here is my opinion and exchanged.

[ultra]

And what, for half a year, the situation in Ukraine has improved? In my opinion, the opposite is true.

[ares1988]

"According to our Ministry of Defense, to date, Ukrainian formations have lost almost 4300 tanks and armored fighting vehicles of all types." - OK. I believe that the losses of both sides should be counted in the same way. Well, i.e. if we take the losses of Ukraine according to the data of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, then the losses of Russia must be considered according to the data of the General Staff of the ZSU. It seems to be logical. So: according to Military Balance 22, the Russian troops before the SVO had 3417 tanks and 16893 AFVs. Losses (according to ZSU) amounted to 1876 tanks and 4141 AFVs, i.e. 55% and 25% respectively.
Demilitarization you say?

[yaglon]

You can never count the losses at the request of the parties, they have always been greatly inflated at all times. Usually these data should be divided by 5-10 approximately.

[ares1988]

Yes, this is understandable. Usually the parties are well aware of their losses. And what does the enemy have - write more, why regret the adversary. And even if you want to calculate objectively, it’s not always possible to find out exactly: how much is there and how well you hit.

[Shark Lover]

If we count according to the data of both sides, we have 55%, then they have 4300 tanks, how much is that in percentage? - 200)))))) Do they shoot ghosts of tanks there? Konoshenkov always says about the losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine - PREDICTIONS. That is, according to intelligence data, they were released conditionally in a heap, there is no volley-heap. However, this does not happen, at least half of the heap escaped, and half of the remaining half of the heap is 300. Therefore, losses are considered a thankless thing. The one who conquers the territory wins.

[Repellent]

Quote: Shark Lover

They have 4300 tanks, what is the percentage? - 200)))))) Do they shoot ghosts of tanks there?

We read carefully:

According to our Ministry of Defense, Ukrainian formations have lost almost 4300 tanks so far. and armored fighting vehicles of all types

MTLB, BTR, BMP - all this is BM. Even self-propelled guns can be dragged there, if desired)))

More carefully, more carefully

Some tanks (and other BTs) were installed by partners (there he brought pictures of a warrior. They have little faith, but at least something).

Good advice to you: add up the numbers, realize everything, and only then try to be ironic. If you find what

Quote: Shark Lover

The one who conquers the territory wins

Also crap, generally speaking. In order to win, it is not at all necessary to "conquer territory".

[Shark Lover]

Yes, you don't even have to count. For example, how to calculate the APU of our destroyed equipment? The territory is ours. Approximately, so that he voiced and jumped. Further, our tank was knocked out, it went into the standings destroyed by the Ukrainians, ours took it and put it into operation (unless, of course, the tower was blown off). How do ours consider him and how do Ukrainians consider him? They knocked out a tank of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, it remained on our territory, it was restored and put into operation. Did he go as destroyed by them and grown by us?)) A trophy? It is unlikely that a trophy is a whole tank. Why I say, victory is for those who occupy the territory. And these tables, these are warriors to go to the toilet, they are just as true as the fact that Israel is a peaceful state)) You can only be smart. In addition, the methodology for calculating the loss of hp and equipment is different for everyone. Until now, there is no single opinion on the Second World War.

[Repellent]

Quote: Shark Lover

Yes, you don't even have to count. For example, how to calculate the APU of our destroyed equipment?

Man, before this, the conversation was about destroyed equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Neither our losses, nor the restored ukrotechnics (which, by the way, is mainly used by the LDNR - there are 64s mostly and other pop music, they are not in the RF Armed Forces) have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Do not distort, cheaters, to put it mildly, few people love.

[Shark Lover]

The conversation is about losses, and they don’t digest wise men posing as themselves)))))))

[ares1988]

"Therefore, losses are considered an ungrateful thing" - I completely agree. I can’t even imagine: how the same military balance will knock out the same balance for the collection for 2023.

[chetvertak]

Since 2016, the BMP has been modernized! 600 BMP-3 units were produced. For tanks, we get 600 T-72B3 2016 units, 90 T-100M units, and 200 T-80 BVM. = 900 units. This is what is suitable for today's SVO operation in Ukraine. There is nothing to fight with. The given number of tanks in Ukraine is from 3200 to 4,5 thousand pieces. And they also overlooked the entire defense of the Armed Forces in eastern Ukraine for 8 years. If you divide 4300 by 2, then you can somehow approximately calculate the destroyed tanks. But maybe less than 20%

[BlitzZ]

Sorry, but to believe the reports of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine is quite some kind of scumbag.

[ares1988]

So no one says that the General Staff of the ZSU is the ultimate truth. It has always been customary to underestimate one's losses, to exaggerate the enemy's losses. I'm talking about the fact that if there is a desire to objectively talk about losses (on both sides), then you need to apply one technique. Like we believe in the word of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation - that means we believe in the word and ZSU. Well, or we don’t believe in either one or the other, and we count according to the “nameplates”. Then you need to go for oryx and / or lost armor.

[BlitzZ]

I don’t want to sing the laudatory odes of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation at all, but to put an equal sign in terms of adequacy and truthfulness between the reports of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in terms of losses is a complete mess, excuse me. My opinion, based on an analysis of all the information activities of the state 404 over several years.

[ares1988]

Do you give examples of outright lies of the RF Ministry of Defense and the president / his representative?)

[BlitzZ]

The question is not whether they lie or not lie (everyone lies), but how often they lie and what is the scale of the lie.

[ares1988]

Very logical. And, if it’s not a secret: on the basis of what did you then come to the conclusion that the ZSU cannot be trusted at all, but the RF Armed Forces, after all, can?

[BlitzZ]

Based on information that the Armed Forces of Ukraine (and the government of Ukraine) and the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation (and the government of Russia) kindly make available to the public. Fact checking, and a bit of logic and common sense - you can see with the naked eye who should be trusted and who should not.

[ares1988]

These are all common words. You yourself admit that both sides are lying. Let's take a look: what kind of statements by the Ukrainian side do you distrust so much that you think that they compromise the Ukrainian government as a whole as a source of information.
For my part, I can give an example of the Russian authorities, which, for example, a week before the invasion, assured that no war was planned, the stories about the preparation of the invasion were fakes, and the troops there simply gathered for exercises. We all see how it ended.
Further, according to the official data of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (since we are talking about losses): the losses of the RF Armed Forces still amount to 1300 killed. And, by the way, without loss in technology. And this despite the fact that more than 5700 people have already been killed by name.

[BlitzZ]

Namely counted where? In dill? These are not those accidentally killed who then read their obituaries with surprise?

People like Zakharova, for example, are clearly not privy to all the plans of the VPR of the Russian Federation.
They basically said that there is no threat from the Russian Federation and that the Russian Federation has every right to move troops across its territory.
Obviously, the war was calculated as an option, but it is clear that they were delaying it as best they could, and the Russian Federation was forced to use force to resolve the problem due to the actions of the other side. Namely, the Ukrainian puppet government and its overseas masters.
You do not agree?

[ares1988]

Namely counted in the Russian media, publishing obituaries in honor of the next hero. There, the mayor and the head of the region often join the condolences. Here, by the way, questions arise: condolences are expressed to military personnel. Those. did 5700 include employees of other law enforcement agencies? Did any kind of volunteers get into it? Well, and, obviously, those mobilized in the LPR / DPR do not fall into this list. Therefore, 5700 is the MINIMUM of the dead citizens of the Russian Federation. Source:
https://zona.media/casualties
As an example of a loss in one of the regions (you can extrapolate yourself):
https://fn--volga-ru.turbopages.org/fn-volga.ru/s/news/view/id/182017

[ares1988]

https://tass-ru.turbopages.org/tass.ru/s/politika/13740685
So Peskov declares that Russia is not going to attack. By the way, it doesn’t matter at all whether Peskov himself (or the same Zakharova) knew about the planned attack. They express the official position of the country; they cannot have their own opinion by virtue of their position.
As for the "forced decision" and "overseas masters" - I do not agree, but the discussion of these issues will take us too far from the original question: why can official Russian sources be trusted, but not official Ukrainian ones?

[BlitzZ]

As for Peskov's statement: it is precisely the forced decision of a preventive strike that indicates that Russia was not going to attack first. The fact that Russia was preparing for a similar outcome of events is clear, but still the war was taken by surprise. It can be seen both in the number of personnel, and in the organization of logistics and other things.

This link shows beautiful numbers and names a few names. Do you consider this a reliable source? A media zone that spreads numerous fakes like an airstrike on a maternity hospital in Mariupol?
To use sources from such a garbage dump is zashkvar. Goodbye.

[ares1988]

I didn’t intend to, but I attacked, it turned out very interesting. This is usually called a lie: when today you say "we will not attack", and tomorrow you send troops.
Did the war take you by surprise? What is it like? Was it an attack on Russia?
About the number of personnel: they estimated 200 thousand. And what, Russia can allocate a large grouping without mobilization? Logistics - yes, a headache and a weak point. Smart people warned about this even before the war. True, analysts in the spirit of "they will scatter, and the people will meet with flowers" - wrote completely different people.
Open the second link. There are 100+ names and surnames. For each of them there was a separate publication. And this, I remind you, is only 1 region, and not the most famous. A simple extrapolation of the population of the region to the population of the country will easily give you 7 thousand dead. Apparently no volunteers. Definitely without the DNR/LNR. Missing people are not included in these statistics either. But the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, in a blue eye, continues to talk about 1300 dead.
And why do you not like the source? A fact doesn't stop being a fact just because it's published in a source you don't like.

[BlitzZ]

Yes, that's exactly what it looks like. The Russian Federation delayed this moment until the last, trying to negotiate peacefully. However, this was not part of the US plans. Last year, saber-rattling and large-scale exercises near the borders were enough to cool hot heads off to the side. And now they began to prepare more intensely only when it was already clearly visible that the Armed Forces of Ukraine were concentrating forces to the line of contact and the shelling was only beginning to become more frequent.
By surprise, this means that they did not prepare too well for a possible war, relying on either a peaceful solution to the issue, or on "the Armed Forces of Ukraine will scatter, and the people will meet with flowers," or on the collapse of the political leadership.
How can you extrapolate data from one region to all the others? Others may be either much less or much more. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation has not updated the data on the dead since the end of March, but this does not mean that there are no more losses. What nonsense?

I do not like this source, because earlier I often posted false information. And this "research" on losses is far-fetched and seems to be stuck on the knee.

[BlitzZ]

Yes, unfortunately Russia is acting in the direction that the Americans planned. I had to choose the lesser of two evils.

As history has shown, Ukraine shelled the Donbass constantly. And at the end of February, shelling intensified many times over, the usual artillery preparation before an offensive. And large-scale exercises in the western part of Russia were carried out only in response to the pulling of troops by Ukraine to the line of contact. So no, the Ukrainians were wrong.
Ukraine would definitely be supported by all NATO led by the United States in the attack on the Donbass. Moreover, they were drummed into their heads that they are head and shoulders above these Russians and victory will be theirs.

Why wait to be attacked? When inflicting a preventive strike, the damage to civilians in the Donbass is significantly less. In addition, the West does not care who attacked first - Russia is always the aggressor. The same thing happened on 08.08.08

Nobody said that they would take Kyiv in 3 days, this is nonsense. Without a doubt, there was a calculation that the population would be more loyal and the Armed Forces of Ukraine would scatter. Or the expectation that the political leadership of Ukraine will collapse and they will sign a surrender. Apparently they thought there was a chance. In my opinion, it was necessary to immediately begin to act as the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation are operating now and not have any illusions.

You may or may not extrapolate. It seems to me that this is wrong, because in other regions the situation may be radically different. It is incorrect to compare opinion polls with military losses.
At one time, I also checked similar reports and in fact it turned out that some military men did not die at all, others died earlier, and still others actually died in the war. Mixing truth with lies. Especially from such a source as Mediazona.
And again, according to the latest data, we have 1300+ people lost, but it is obvious that since the end of March there have been more losses, so of course there are more losses. By how much, we can only guess. Some people use Mediazone sources, some don't.
In the period from 2014 to 2017, I carefully monitored Ukrainian news and the Ukrainian government. The number and scale of lies significantly exceeds that given by the Russian media.
So, excuse me, but I trust the statement of the RF Ministry of Defense more than the statements of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense.

[ares1988]

And good evening to you. Given the time you spent, it would be a sin not to say thank you for a constructive conversation. Now to the point, point by point:
"Here I had to choose the lesser of two evils." - Firstly, it was possible not to get into this situation. They brought it themselves. No one asked to put forward an ultimatum with such "horse" demands, especially in public. Second, is it really the lesser evil? There was a similar situation here recently with China, Taiwan and one elderly lady on a plane. As a result, China wiped itself out, but nothing terrible, in general, happened. The country has not collapsed. Although Comrade Xi, this, of course, may cost him a seat at the October CCP Congress. They really do not have a slogan: No Xi - no China ...
"As history has shown, Ukraine shelled the Donbass constantly. And at the end of February, the shelling intensified many times over, the usual artillery preparation before the offensive." - you present it as if Ukraine has been doing nothing but bombing the civilian population of Donbass for 8 years. And on the other side of the trenches, nothing came, yeah. In fact, there was artillery on both sides of the front, both of them fired, and that’s another question: who was the first to start skirmishes and artillery there. duel. Again, within the framework of your logic: if the Ukrainians have been shelling the Donbass for 8 years, then they have been preparing for the offensive for all 8 years. Continuously. Well, they would have prepared further, what unusual thing happened in February?
"large-scale exercises in the western part of Russia were carried out only in response to the pulling of troops by Ukraine to the line of contact" - yes, for God's sake, Russia can conduct exercises on its territory. By the way, like Ukraine on its own. And, by the way, like NATO - on its territory. This is such a game of double standards that everyone plays: we are just studying here, but they are plotting something and threatening. However, sometimes it’s true: they plot and threaten)
"So no, the Ukrainians turned out to be wrong" - why? They warned that Russia would attack and prepared to repel the attack. Russia really attacked, i.e. they were right. Although, again: this is such a game of escalation, and you can dig endlessly deep: we would not have attacked if they had not pulled troops; and we would not have pulled together if they did not conduct exercises; and we would not have been conducting exercises if you had not planned; and we wouldn't have planned if you weren't going to... And so on to the bones of Adam and Eve. You understand what I mean, this is when one side sees a threat from the other side, to counter which it takes certain actions that the other side perceives as a threat, and already there they take some actions that ...
"Ukraine would definitely be supported by all of NATO at the head of the United States in an attack on the Donbass" - i.e. now they do not support Ukraine (having the status of a victim of aggression), but would they definitely support Ukraine-aggressor?) Why not? And the level of support, if Ukraine had attacked first, would have been more than the current one?
"Moreover, they were drummed into their heads that they are head and shoulders above these Russians and victory will be theirs." - it's like the Russians were hammered into the head that they are not warriors, only stumps - will they scatter? It’s enough for us to raise an eyebrow with the story that they all fled (the last one is a quote from Solovyov)

[ares1988]

"Why wait to be attacked?" - so as not to be an aggressor. And to wear down the enemy in defensive battles, suffering fewer losses. Defending is always easier.
"When inflicting a preventive strike, the damage to civilians in the Donbass is significantly less." - civilians from Donbass began to be taken out. True, then, for some reason, they abandoned this process. Probably because the picture with the refugees was created, fed to the population, and then they turned out to be of no particular use to anyone. If Russia is so concerned about the inhabitants of Donbass, it could, in 8 years, like some kind of Israel, implement programs for the resettlement of compatriots. Type - you are ours, we are always glad to see you. And after the start of the crisis, urgently take out all the remaining (wishing).
"Besides, the West doesn't care who attacked first - Russia is always the aggressor. The same thing happened on 08.08.08" - well, why is that? After the war in Georgia, everything came to naught within six months. There weren't even any sanctions. Syria? Well, that doesn't have much of an effect either. Crimea/Donbass 2014? So it was necessary to act, if it is a pity for the population, just like in 2008, the result would be the same. When were we the aggressors?
"No one said that they would take Kyiv in 3 days, this is nonsense" - officially, of course, there was no such thing. But there was propaganda that assured the people of everything that you write about below (they will scatter, collapse). I gave you an example with Solovyov. There is a selection of posts and comments from the first days of the operation, in which "we are catching it, the Swedes are bending", another day or two - and a parade on Khreshchatyk. There is, in the end, a wonderful article on ria news, in which we have already won and a brave new world has come:
https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html

[ares1988]

"It is possible to extrapolate, but it is possible not to extrapolate. It seems to me that this is wrong, because in other regions the situation may be radically different. It is incorrect to compare opinion polls with military losses." - the cook's method. He does not have to eat the whole dish to understand that it is ready. It is not necessary to poll the entire population to understand its mood. So let's do a random check. I checked the data for one region, check 80 more - well, you need to get a salary for this)) Let's decide: how many more regions do you need to "try" so that you can extrapolate the death toll to the population?
"At one time I also checked similar reports and in fact it turned out that some military men did not die at all, others died earlier, and still others actually died in the war." - I gave you an example of one region. Let's just say that if at least one of the above list turns out to be alive, I admit that I was wrong. And I'll change my avatar to a tricolor. And under each article by Kirill Ryabov about the uselessness of Western military assistance, I will leave a comment "Glory to Russia! Glory to the heroes!")
"Especially from a source like Mediazona." - again, the source is not the same. Do you have a specific example of a fake that makes you distrust them? By the way, I do not consider them to be the ultimate truth. Just one of the sources. RIA News of a healthy person)
"In the period from 2014 to 2017, I carefully monitored Ukrainian news and the Ukrainian government. The number and scale of lies significantly exceed what the Russian media give" - ​​let's distinguish between OFFICIAL information and media publications. Again, let's keep in mind that people in power change (yes, it happens). And with them, the methods and principles of work can change. Therefore, I would be grateful if you, according to the current leadership of Ukraine, would give some examples of SUCH fakes (stated officially), after which you do not allow the possibility of trusting their official reports. You never know, maybe I missed something, and the Ukrainian leadership set out such a monstrous and obvious lie that you really shouldn’t trust them.

[ares1988]

"And again, according to the latest data, we have 1300+ people lost, but it is obvious that since the end of March there have been more losses, so of course there are more losses" - that's the nuance that there are OFFICIALLY 1300 dead. If you declare that there are more dead (which is obvious), then there is every reason to get an article for fake or discredit (the choice is democracy in Russia).

[ares1988]

"How can you extrapolate data from one region to all the rest" - well, because 2 million people and 100+ dead is a good base. Opinion polls are carried out not without exception among the population, however, an acceptable indicator of accuracy is obtained. Is one region not enough for you? What else to look for? Well, again, when you are given data on the dead, counted by surname, then you consider them unreliable. And when they talk about 100500 casualties in the Ukrainian army - well, here, of course, you need to take a word, how else)
The MoD did not update the data - this indicates that there are no other official data. Those. according to the latest official data, we have only 1300 dead. No other way.
"Everyone lies" is your own phrase. And this is without touching the question of what exactly the media zone lied about. Let's talk about this study. I gave you 1 region, he threw it off. Shall we look for the rest? And how many regions do you need?)

[iouris]

As for the prospects: you got very excited. Let me remind you that one of the goals of the operation is demilitarization.

[andrewkor]

I know for sure that the militia in 2014 and later respected the training of Ukrainian tankers in battle. But the CBO gave the results announced by the Author.

[ratcatcher]

Well, just in the spring, our tankers wrote that if tank duels happen, then it usually ends like duels in aviation. That is, the Ukrainians lose by one wicket. One of the reasons is the low proficiency of the tankers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The second - experience has shown that it is impossible to keep a full ammunition load in a tank. And in the spring, the Ukrainians went with tanks full of ammunition, when ours did not take more than 10-15 shells in urban battles.
As artillery support, perhaps Ukrainian tanks work well. They generally have a very good artillery school.

[2 Level Advisor]

good? yes, their school is excellent, unfortunately .. 80-90% of our losses from artillery .. to get a bullet in the SVO, and not a fragment, it should still be "lucky" ..

[EvilLion]

Well, the RF Ministry of Defense data on losses are quite adequate, especially since aviation brings video recordings. And with an initial stock of about 2000 tanks, they should just now be approaching a situation where the reserves are running out. I'm not saying that they are completely everything, maybe they are still pulling out and repairing something. It is possible that they still have 500-600 tanks at the front, but the Armed Forces of Ukraine understand that if these tanks go on the attack unsuccessfully somewhere, or simply exchange with the tanks of the allies, then there will be nothing to replenish them. Accordingly, they take care of them, and the very course of the database with methodical shelling does not imply a quick knockout of armored vehicles.

Even if some machines from the early stages of the war survived for a long time, it is still the wear of the barrels (1000 shots, and with a subcaliber it is 1 for 5), engines.

So far, no one has heard about the Polish "tyards", either they were not brought, or they were not brought, or they are kept in reserve.

[BlitzZ]

In addition, it looks like the figures officially announced by the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on the number of tanks and other armored combat vehicles are clearly underestimated. As in principle, and on airplanes / helicopters.

[Glory1974]

It becomes clear from the article that how many tanks were destroyed, so many were supplied by partners. Sadly, if so.
The enemy is not simple, it can take a long time to demilitarize him in this way. And if, nevertheless, there are more losses, the article is not complete. Where did they shoot from all types of weapons for six months?

[EvilLion]

In general, according to the Ministry of Defense, ~ 3 armored vehicles were destroyed in the first 3300 months, ~ 2.5 in the next 1000.
That is, the average losses have fallen, the decrease in average losses can be explained by:
1) An increase in the quality of technology.
2) The growth in the quality of the army as a whole and its military successes. That is, the army has become stronger in relation to the enemy.
3) Reducing the amount of equipment and therefore targets for the enemy.

The 1st pt, obviously, does not roll, on the contrary, not the best weapons get from storage. The second point is somehow also not observed, the Armed Forces of Ukraine do not have a single success, and the Russian army, as it gains experience, only fights better. Fri 2 remains. There are fewer tanks, and they are gradually ceasing to be a factor influencing the battlefield. Objectively, when you are bombarded with shells, mech. formations are the main means of counteraction, but the APU is no longer trying to attack. Perhaps they hope to somehow endure until the moment when the Abrams are sent to them. That is, we will see tanks at the Armed Forces of Ukraine for a long time, but here is the fur. connections, perhaps, simply no longer exist exactly like fur. connections, because not only is there not enough mat. parts, they are simply no longer used in this capacity. Just a mass of infantry in which the remaining armored vehicles are smeared.

[Zaurbek]

With all this, the possibilities for replenishing losses are reduced. As a result of demilitarization strikes, Ukraine has practically lost its production capacity for the restoration and modernization of armored vehicles. Mass deliveries from abroad can no longer be expected: potential suppliers have given away almost all the tanks that they could share without harming themselves.


This is very important ...... without such production and human resources, it is not possible to count on a war.

[kulemin0025gmail.com]

Cool! Tank Troops, Armed Forces, Rocket Troops of the Outskirts. What is the conversation about?

[garik77]

The state is understandable - shitty, the prospects too - to be disposed of by the Russian army or become trophies for the people's militia of the republics.

[Wbond]

... and what are the prospects?

[Jonny_Su]

Based on the article, the Poles threw in as many tanks as were knocked out. Good help.

[Seamaster]

Well, why keep this article on the site? For fun? Whose tanks, then, are our Defense Ministry destroying today (09.10.2022/XNUMX/XNUMX) in tens and hundreds in Ukraine? Ask Konoshevsky - he never lies.