Crooked American "spear": Javelin did not live up to expectations in Ukraine

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Source: news.myseldon.com

Balance


Any weapon must be optimally balanced for effective combat use. If the complexity and cost are prohibitive, then the conditions should be greenhouse. And when combat toys end up in the hands of a militia illiterate in military affairs, the ideas of the designers go to waste. It became clear in the first weeks of the special operation that the world-famous and widely advertised 3rd generation Javelin anti-tank systems (“dart” or “spear”) are in no way capable of being a miracle weapon for Ukraine.

If we get detailed statistics on the defeat of domestic armored vehicles by American roof-piercing missiles, then at the end of the military conflict, therefore, we will have to operate with open sources. From the video sequence distributed by the Bandera side, the picture of a successful Javelin does not emerge at all. For example, the home-grown "Stugna" is a fully functional weapon, although it does not always hit moving targets with the first missile. It should be understood that Ukrainian propaganda publishes only successful stories use of weapons. How many misfires, misses and other malfunctions did not hit the Network?



By the way, this is how public opinion about the Ukrainian "wunderwaffen" is formed. But even with this fine propaganda tweak, little is seen or heard about the effectiveness of the Javelin. Approximately 10-15 successful launches (recorded on video) of other types of anti-tank weapons account for one defeat of the American ATGM.

The evidence that is available illustrates the effectiveness of the Javelin on the principle of "shot somewhere - something exploded there." A similar point of view is shared by some foreign observers. For example, Danish historian Carl Hamilton claims that there is not a single reliable evidence of the successful operation of the American ATGM on the Web. He's writing:

"Where is the Javelin? I have not seen any evidence that any Javelin has destroyed a single Russian vehicle. Why? We know that the Ukrainians have a lot of them, we know that they like to film the destruction tanks. The Javelin may have some unknown fatal flaw. That's what I think".


Source: vikond65.livejournal.com

In most domestic analytics, the disadvantages of the described ATGM include high cost. Say, a missile costing $150 often destroys targets much cheaper. This is a completely fair observation, but many other disadvantages have been revealed in Ukraine that make the Javelin not the most effective weapon.

It is worth starting with a two-week training in the use of anti-tank systems, which is mandatory for all American operators of the system. They teach, in particular, at the infantry school in Fort Benning, Georgia. The Javelin is far from an intuitive weapon, like an RPG, so even the regular military of the Armed Forces of Ukraine needs training, not to mention the therodefense bandits. Russian Today in this regard quotes the words of a Ukrainian prisoner of war from Popasna:

“They brought us two Javelins. While we were carrying them out of the car, one was broken, and then we tried to figure out how to shoot with the second. Who according to the instructions, who watched YouTube. Nobody knows English, and nobody explained anything to us.”

So, the first rule - use only by qualified users, is not respected. The Banderaites have to learn already on the battlefield, and this is fraught with fatal consequences.

The next major disadvantage of the Javelin is the demands on the conditions of use on the battlefield. The small dimensions of the product and the calculation of only two people tempt to put on tank-dangerous directions for work at close range. For example, in urban development, to which the complex is adapted very conditionally. The ATGM has a considerable dead zone: 65 meters - for shooting in the "shot in a straight line" (direct attack) mode and at least 150 meters - for hitting the roof of the attack object. Javelin is a product for combating tanks in the open.

Everyone knows that the Armed Forces of Ukraine deliberately impose street battles on Russian troops, realizing that in the fields and forests the enemy’s advantage will be completely overwhelming. Will the American ATGM be able to take its rightful place in the Bandera defense? The Ukrainian army seems to be deliberately avoiding the use of anti-tank systems, adapting the tactics of the units accordingly.

Adding fuel to the fire is the need to wait from 45 to 90 seconds before the automation "copies" the target and cools the IR homing head. Approximately according to the same scheme, MANPADS work, only the operator in this case does not run much risk of getting a machine-gun burst or, worse, a tank shell. The very principle of the 3rd generation “fire and forget” technique is very peculiar. Sometimes it is better to shoot quickly and guide the missile to the target from cover for several seconds (for example, through the Stugna interface) than to sit still for a minute with a 16-kilogram pipe in full view of everyone.

Javelin business project


Sophisticated technique is good in greenhouse conditions. This thesis was very convincingly proved by the Wehrmacht, but the laurels of the creators of the “wonder weapon” do not allow Javelin developers to sleep peacefully. According to the internal reports of the founding father of the Raytheon product, which ended up in the hands of RT, the advertised product can very conditionally be classified as an ATGM. First of all, because of the effective firing range - no more than 2,5 km. And this somewhat changes the specifics of using the product. It is one thing to aim and wait for a minute and a half at a distance of 4-5 km from the enemy, and quite another - at 2-2,5 km. Here, the operator is more strongly unmasked by both the laser radiation of the range finder and the optics of the guidance system.

The American “spear” also looks crooked in accuracy tests. A Raytheon report states that out of 11 launches, only three were successful. In terms of dollars, this is more than a million thrown into the wind. However, even without reports, there is objective evidence of the unsatisfactory accuracy of the Javelin - in particular, during demonstration firing, even before the special operation, the missile could not hit a previously set fire to a tank-type target. The piquancy is that this incident was recorded by television cameras and released on official air.


Source: uf.ru

And finally, the main drawback of Javelin is its low reliability and capriciousness. Sophisticated electronics do not like shock, dampness and unskilled handling. And this is enough in the Ukrainian army. The authors of The Washington Post complain that the Armed Forces of Ukraine use free ATGMs as antediluvian Soviet RPGs - hence the broken optics of aiming containers and deformed brains. Often after such a Javelin even refused to turn on. Let's add here the discharged batteries, from which the products came from the USA, and the complete lack of routine maintenance.

Nevertheless, "Holy Javelina" has become an Internet meme, flaunts on residential buildings, children are named after her. Along with HIMARS, she is now the main "savior" of Ukraine. In the information war, all means are good, because the bolder the lie, the more they believe in it. Especially when billions of dollars of contracts depend on it.
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148 comments
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  1. +7
    15 August 2022 03: 53
    If they are so bad with the Javelins, then why are our tank divisions marking time?
    1. +4
      15 August 2022 04: 08
      Yes, besides these joe velinof, there are other means and there are few infantry and the tank does not fight in one.
      1. -11
        15 August 2022 05: 08
        They circled the cheap ones around their fingers, they were preparing to fight with combat-ready advancing tank units, and they were outplayed like clockwork.
        1. +4
          15 August 2022 11: 55
          Therefore, we conclude from your words that we do not have combat-ready tank units? Do you want to send vidos with our tank columns? Why are they needed then? If so, these anti-tank systems are such a city, then why is Peski, where 2200 people lived, this is a strategic point and we captured it for more than a week?
          1. -7
            15 August 2022 12: 28
            Considering that our tanks in Ukraine lost 600 - 700 destroyed and captured, it can be recognized that all of our tank divisions that took part partially lost their combat effectiveness. And now most of our equipment is being lost from enemy artillery, which, according to videos and comments on social networks, has been working very effectively in recent months. And all these losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine that in the General Staff every day at briefings simply means nothing, all these holes in the brigades and battalions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are very quickly plugged up with mobilized cannon fodder and the same representatives of terabats.
            1. +4
              15 August 2022 19: 45
              And you turn out to be a fairy-tale character, why 600 and not 6000 is a cooler number
              1. -2
                16 August 2022 12: 21
                Only you are fabulous here - 623 tanks from February to July were counted from photos and videos. Losses of equipment and road transport continue mainly from artillery.
              2. -1
                26 October 2022 13: 40
                There is such an enemy resource: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html
                There they collect photos and video recordings over the network - I looked through our tanks - there are no visual back-ups. But even if we take a 50% error, the numbers are terrible
          2. +4
            15 August 2022 18: 48
            Quote from: Denistutswoy
            why Peski, where 2200 people lived, is a strategic point and we captured it for more than a week?

            Imagine, but there were no inhabitants at all on the Mannerheim line, and for several months almost half a million soldiers could not pass through it.
          3. +2
            16 August 2022 11: 49
            that is, the sands captured the week because they lost tanks because of the javelins?
            show AT LEAST ONE tank destroyed from a javelin under the sands
            even ONE?

            couch experts love to write nonsense and draw far-reaching conclusions based on nothing
    2. +14
      15 August 2022 05: 12
      The author does not understand what he is writing about.
      Approximately 10-15 successful launches (recorded on video) of other types of anti-tank weapons account for one defeat of the American ATGM.

      Those. It turns out that our losses are simply terrible. You watch the video from there, there are no tank attacks, they ended, there are long-term shelling by artillery. The benefit of the shells in the Soviet Union accumulated a lot. Again video. Ukrov trenches, hundreds of craters around them.
      1. -3
        15 August 2022 19: 47
        We are waiting for you, as you will immediately go to the front to attack with you in the forefront.
    3. -10
      15 August 2022 05: 32
      Technique in the hands of a savage is a piece of iron. In this sense, the Skakuans are not far from the Papuans.
      1. +2
        15 August 2022 11: 57
        Let's give you Jevelyn and show you how to use it? I am 99% sure that you will be reviewing the video instructions for its use for several hours. And then you will constantly make mistakes during training.
        1. +3
          15 August 2022 16: 22
          There is a manual in English for almost 600 pages, what are you talking about.
          1. +1
            15 August 2022 17: 19
            Quote: Kedrovich
            There is a manual in English for almost 600 pages, what are you talking about.

            No problem, I speak English fluently. Moreover, it is in the American version.
            1. 0
              15 August 2022 17: 30
              Quote: Nagan
              I speak English fluently. Moreover, it is in the American version

              Well, living in the USA is just a must have)))

              And 600 pages for some kind of ATGM - this is clearly a bit too much. IMHO.
              1. 0
                31 August 2022 01: 57
                Probably for stupid Americans, the manual is made in the form of a comic book. Then just 600 pages will be needed. We make one poster for the same Igla MANPADS and that's enough.
      2. +3
        16 August 2022 14: 08
        Quote: Nagan
        Technique in the hands of a savage - a piece of iron.

      3. +2
        17 August 2022 04: 13
        Quote: Nagan
        Technique in the hands of a savage is a piece of iron. In this sense, the Skakuans are not far from the Papuans.

        Apparently, this front cannot break through in any way.
        1. 0
          18 September 2022 09: 13
          Forget, now there are no fronts at all. And why capture something if the Armed Forces of Ukraine are already being disposed of.
      4. 0
        11 November 2022 22: 06
        Skakuasy drove the invincible and legendary yesterday across the Dnieper
    4. +2
      15 August 2022 06: 14
      Are you waiting for tank offensives and breakthroughs?)))) Marking time)))
      1. +10
        15 August 2022 12: 00
        Quote: carstorm 11
        Are you waiting for tank offensives and breakthroughs?)))) Marking time)))

        History moves in a spiral, it has made another round and we have come to the tactics of WWI. Now there are no means of quickly breaking through the defense, as in the Second World War. Takni again returned to where they started - to support the infantry. And the merit in this is not in the javelin, but in the saturation of the infantry with various ATGMs. It doesn’t really matter what their effectiveness is compared to others, the main thing is that any infantry squad, in fact, can disrupt the offensive of a tank company, and even if not, then losses in tanks will not allow you to go further. Until they receive the Armed Forces, something new that can quickly and without much loss, break into the defense, there will be an artillery war.
        1. -3
          15 August 2022 12: 51
          We came to tactics and now our tankers are raking
          1. +2
            15 August 2022 16: 13
            Have you seen fighting without casualties? Here is a situation when, for some reason, a single car does not understand what it is doing in an open area. If another tank damaged him here, what would it change? It's not about the means of destruction, but about tactics. Why is he there? Where is one going? From an ambush, you can hit the tank by any means. All the more solitary. And here the javelin is quite a good weapon. But let's take Sands. With that density of fire, you won’t even have time to visit from this bandura. Moreover, he will not have to be guided. He simply will not see tanks.
          2. 0
            24 October 2022 10: 13
            I live in Israel, I don't trust the British Sun for a penny, but I believe in British media marketers. Good luck!
        2. -2
          15 August 2022 19: 48
          What a fierce nonsense. lol
        3. +1
          16 August 2022 01: 06
          Now there are no means of quickly breaking through the defense, as in the Second World War.

          Means - WTO for aviation and artillery. Only there should be a lot of it and target designation is needed for it. In the presence of a satellite-guided WTO, any opornik is taken out by 2 aircraft or one battery at a time. At the same time, there is no need to enter the zone of destruction of MANPADS (bombs are dropped outside the zone of destruction) or be afraid of counter-battery combat (fire raid and immediately change of position).
          The worst thing is that looking at how the RF Armed Forces are fighting, our enemies may again decide that Russia is a colossus with feet of clay and without a head ....
          1. -7
            16 August 2022 02: 39
            Quote: Cympak
            The worst thing is that looking at how the Russian Armed Forces are fighting, our enemies may again decide that Russia is a colossus with feet of clay and without a head ...

            The enemies, unlike a relatively small part of, ahem, the Internet community, have heads on their shoulders. And besides - good quality information about how the Russian Federation maintains the database.

            They won't decide, don't be so scared wink Yes
        4. -2
          16 August 2022 02: 54
          History moves in a spiral, it has made another round and we have come to the tactics of WWI. Now there are no means of quickly breaking through the defense, as in the Second World War. The tanks again returned to where they started - to support the infantry. And the merit in this is not in the javelin, but in the saturation of the infantry with various ATGMs. It doesn’t really matter how effective they are compared to others, the main thing is that any infantry squad, in fact, can disrupt the offensive of a tank company, and even if not, then losses in tanks will not allow you to go further. Until they receive the Armed Forces, something new that can quickly and without much loss, break into the defense, there will be an artillery war.

          That seems to be a good thesis, resonant, but I cannot agree with you.
          Our slow offensive is not due to the saturation of the anti-tank defense of the enemy, it was enough during the Second World War, but by other factors.
          Tanks were invented by the naglitsy, but the Germans created and tested the theory of their correct use, but we learned and improved!
          The strength of tanks is that they are an independent branch of the army, used with motorized infantry, mobile artillery and aircraft. Moreover, the Germans went to one tank regiment in the TD 2 motorized with artillery, infantry fighting vehicles, anti-aircraft guns and sappers.
          The second strength of tank troops is the ability to concentrate on a selected area, where the enemy has less or worse anti-tank guns ... But even if it is saturated everywhere, the tankers have a head start, since there will still be more of them in a narrow area due to mobility and concentration and they will go after hitting art and aviation !!!
          However, in Russia, after the transition of the Serdyukov reforms, there are essentially no tank troops.
          More precisely, they are, but very insufficient for an offensive even in poorly protected areas. We have only 2 tank divisions, and all of them are part of the 1st tank army, the rest of the tanks are part of brigades and are dispersed throughout the districts and armies, to prop up the infantry! This approach was also in the 41st and it turned out to be ineffective.
          In order to create powerful and effective strikes and carry out large-scale operations, it is necessary to return to the creation of a powerful and numerically complete army, but Gazprom will not be able to pull it off, or rather, it will have to share a lot with the people, but here ...
          To solve problems in the style of the Second World War, you need to have at least 10 tank and 20 motorized rifle divisions only on the Krajina, namely divisions, and not brigades, and then neither javelins nor Stugna will help! Imagine that from Belorussia to the south along the Dnieper such a powerful grouping would rush to meet our southern units, previously, with the help of the Airborne Forces, seizing crossings and creating an encirclement ring for the entire eastern enemy grouping. And there, the Ukrainians did not build any levels. Then these units should change to infantry units, and move on!
          And then what do you guess...
          1. -5
            16 August 2022 03: 25
            Quote: Alexey G
            the strength of tank troops in the ability to concentrate on a selected area

            You forgot total air reconnaissance +, for example, the same MRLS. And yes, of course, "concentration" Yes laughing

            Quote: Alexey G
            To create powerful and effective strikes and carry out large-scale operations

            Why did you need it? It is shown that tank forces are seriously vulnerable now, in general there is talk of changing the concept ... and give you tank corps ...

            Quote: Alexey G
            we need to return to the creation of a powerful and numerically full-fledged army, but Gazprom will not be able to pull this off, or rather, it will have to be greatly shared with the people, but here ...

            Ugh... and then Gazprom. Without it - in any way?? negative

            Quote: Alexey G
            To solve problems in the style of the Second World War, you need to have at least 10 tank and 20 motorized rifle divisions only on the Krajina, namely divisions, and not brigades, and then neither javelins nor Stugna will help

            Well, yes, we will throw corpses. It's happened before, you know, it's better not to do it again. Minus.
            1. 0
              7 October 2022 17: 24
              You forgot total air reconnaissance +, for example, the same MRLS. And yes, of course, "concentration" yes laughing
              And what about MRLS? Or do you think that under concentration, these are tanks in a row in an open field?
          2. +2
            16 August 2022 05: 42
            Quote: Alexey G
            To solve problems in the style of the Second World War, you need to have at least 10 tank and 20 motorized rifle divisions only on the Krajina

            "In order to solve tasks in the style of the Second World War, it is necessary" to mobilize in order to provide the necessary superiority in manpower and equipment, without which it is pointless to attack "in the style of the Second World War", the losses will be as in the case of a full-fledged offensive, or even higher, but no result. And if mobilization is carried out, then it will no longer be a NWO, but a war.
            And if you stay within the framework of the SVO, then the only advantage in having it is in the number of large-caliber barrels and, no less important, shells for them. And the only way to realize this advantage is exactly what is already being implemented.
          3. +4
            16 August 2022 09: 58
            Quote: Alexey G
            And then what do you guess...

            Everything seems to be correct, but there are nuances. In the Second World War, tank breakthroughs were possible due to a rather weak anti-tank defense, I will explain that those guns that could fight tanks were heavy and not mobile, capable of hitting tanks at close range, it was enough for the tanks to move to another area and the defense collapsed, it was spent on defeating one tank a sufficiently large number of shots, the calculations were put out of action in the presence of infantry in the orders of tanks. I read that before the Second World War it was believed that one anti-tank gun would disable up to 4 tanks, practice showed that there were up to 4-5 destroyed guns for one disabled tank. Now the situation is radically different, the level of PTS is such that there are always more of them in almost any part of the breakthrough, any infantry unit is oversaturated with them, they are quite inconspicuous and are able to fight tanks at distances when tanks can’t see them yet. There are such examples when conducting SVO. Remember at the beginning there was a report about Chrysanthemum and about 5 destroyed BMs, including tanks. I doubt that having launched an attack, an avalanche of tanks will retain at least half of its composition by the end of the attack. Now everything is moving into the air, i.e. if UAVs and aviation roll up all the TCP and artillery, then the breakthrough is provided by itself (I am exaggerating a little), but the role of tanks there will be minimal and only as support for the infantry, which is what we are seeing now.
            1. +1
              16 August 2022 21: 49
              Perhaps I will answer only you, in view of the fact that your answer is most adapted to the discussion. In 1941, the Soviet 45-mm gun could penetrate the armor of almost all German tanks both in the forehead and in the side, anti-tank guns could also hit almost all T1, T2 and even T3 tanks in weak spots.
              Nevertheless, you yourself say that with sufficient concentration it did not help! Even in the Battle of Kursk, where the Soviet command knew the place of impact and concentrated a lot of excellent guns, Manstein could not be stopped!
              As I wrote, the concentration of tanks, art and aviation in a narrow area decides everything!
              This formula with the concentration of forces was not invented by me, Sun Tzu wrote about it in The Art of War. The Macedonian also pierced the Persians by building his cavalry with a rhombus or in a triangle and striking with such a spear from people in the place where the Persian king was, Napoleon also acted at Borodino, and indeed all sensible military leaders. I do not think that this formula became bad and everything began to be decided in the air!
              Air has always been and remains very useful, but where I live, the T34 was crushed into the Morozov German airfield. Birds live and feed from the earth, and a war can never be won without descending from heaven to sinful.
              All this rubbish in the air can fly as much as you like, it can be shot down, disorientated, and by crushing the satellite constellation it can be left idle altogether. But the main thing that cannot be forgotten is that the birds do not know how to cut off from the rear supply. Tanks give this opportunity, therefore, cutting off troops from blood and nerve communication, sorry for biology, it seems to be Hindenburg or Moltke, they loved Darwin there and everything about non-classical rationality. Maybe someone will not be clear due to lack of time to read the classics, sorry.
              Now for the technical aspect.
              any infantry unit is oversaturated with them, they are quite inconspicuous and able to fight tanks at distances when the tanks still do not see them.

              Firstly, modern tanks have excellent optics, better than those of the ptura operator. Secondly, each unit has reconnaissance, including air reconnaissance, so as not to stupidly fall into an ambush and warn tank groups. Thirdly, even if you get under heavy anti-tank fire, you can always pause, hit from self-propelled guns and mortars, and then try again or in another place. Fourthly, there are motorized infantry with machine guns and snipers who work with tanks and mow down javelins like grass, there are Terminators that, with their 30mm, do not allow their heads to stick out of the trenches. Fifthly, you cannot give all infantrymen a javelin, because then they will not be able to do anything with the attacking motorized infantry, which will simply shoot them down. the more birders, the lower the infantry fire. It was already during WWII. Etc.
              Do not forget about the technical strengthening of tanks in terms of active and dynamic protection. Merkava is not so easy to mess up, Trophy does not doze off.
              Finally, on the issue of range and effectiveness. The range of the Javelin is 3 km, and the Tank 2A82 shoots at 5 km and the speed of its Offa will be higher.
              I doubt that having launched an attack, an avalanche of tanks will retain at least half of its composition by the end of the attack.

              The wise one strikes with an avalanche not in the midst of enemies, but where there are fewer of them and they are weaker, for this reason tanks can be quickly moved, and infantry with ATGMs only by car. But the blow I proposed along the Dnieper would not have found Urov on its way, which is near Avdeevka and Maryinka ....
              So I stand my ground, the cavalry and the aircraft that replaced them will not change the tanks ....
              1. +3
                16 August 2022 22: 54
                Much is true, but there are places where not everything is so clear. At the beginning of the Second World War, the Germans rolled us out thanks to intelligence and tactics, which, by the way, confirms my thesis that tank breakthroughs during the Second World War are the norm. They managed, however, to break through our defenses in the forehead. Their tanks were not uniquely bad. T3 was not much inferior to T34, and T4 was practically equal to it in terms of parameters. The 45-ka pierced it, only from what distance, there is a debriefing of the period of our offensive near Moscow, where the guns of the 34-ok, due to the low quality of the shells, could not penetrate German tanks. In the Battle of Kursk, our main weapon was the ZIS-3, it was practically too tough for all German tanks. The ZIS-2 was quite small, so everything that we built for months, the Germans broke through within 2-3 days. In the North, the front was held, on the southern front there was already access to the rear defense line, but here the merit and, accordingly, the shortcomings of the command and tactics of use, and not the power of anti-tank defense. I don’t consider aviation, I already wrote why. Whoever notices anyone before, I doubt very much that the tank is an ATGM crew, therefore (practice has shown) that the first shot is always behind the grenade launcher. And practice is the criterion of truth. That's it, there are no tank attacks, for what reason? After all, it would seem that all these evasive strikes suggest themselves, the only explanation I see is that at this stage such attacks are not possible.
                1. +5
                  17 August 2022 00: 35
                  It's nice to talk to a knowledgeable person. Of course, not everything is clear. Zis-3 could well have punched a Panther into the side, which had landed in a fire bag, or damaged the caterpillar and forced it to substitute a barrel. But on the Kursk Bulge, the tanks also had many other enemies - mines and attack aircraft with small-caliber cumulative bombs burning through the Tigers from above, and yet they broke through all our defenses in the south and forced us to bring mobile formations into battle.
                  Whoever notices anyone before, I doubt very much that the tank is an ATGM crew, therefore (practice has shown) that the first shot is always behind the grenade launcher. And practice is the criterion of truth.

                  To be honest, if the area is explored, then I must say that the view from the Tank is better than from the trench. The tank is higher and from the tower you can see better than from the depths of the trench, especially if machine guns chirp at you and shells bang!
                  Most ATGM victories are ambush strikes. However, if a tank division attacks a target, then infantry with ATGMs is not much to envy. Tanks under a fiery shaft of self-propelled and mobile artillery can create such a density of fire that light defenses overturn, which was shown by the Second World War.
                  As for the SVO, we do not have enough tanks and infantry for deep coverage, and it is difficult to make small coverage because of the extensive size of the defense prepared over 8 years.
                  A ground army of 300 cannot, even leaving its entire territory unprotected, carry out deep offensives of a strategic nature. I think the Americans knew this and calculated us. With such a dwarf army as ours, it is impossible to encircle even the Donetsk defense of the enemy.
                  And without encirclement there can be no defeat and complete victory.
                  However, a good player saves his trump cards for last. And so, aviation cannot not only surround and smash, it cannot seize territory. How many times the United States bombed the Taliban, who have no air defense, and they could not defeat them, as in Vietnam.
                  And this is practice, which, as you said, is one of the criteria of truth, according to Marx, of course. What then do you order to attack? Pure infantry across the field?
                  So it turns out that without tanks, nowhere ...
                  Understand, I do not consider myself to be in the camp of avid tankers, who were only iron cans.
                  Here is something else. We don’t have enough unmanned aircraft, and we don’t have our own chips for the production of smart weapons either. How then can we defeat the enemy? In technological terms, we are seriously inferior to NATO.
                  And the war with the help of TD was tested in the last big war, comprehended and the structure of the Soviet army was sharpened for this. I was born in the GDR, where the most powerful tank grouping was located, which was feared and respected.
                  T72 is not an escort tank, it is a fast-break tank, a mass tank.
                  Preparing for this war, we had to bet on something. Aliyev bought the UAV. And what did we do? Yes, there are calibers, Iskanders. But you understand that shelling leads to retaliatory shelling, but not to victory. The enemy can not be defeated and captured. We just squeeze it out slowly back, like Sumo wrestlers, but we ourselves suffer losses because we hit him in the forehead, and there is nothing to get around and surround, and we also cannot burn out aircraft and UAVs from above due to their lack and enemy air defense. But artillery does not kill everyone, someone remains and shoots at a few infantry and tanks. They mobilized, but we didn't.
                  1. +3
                    17 August 2022 09: 54
                    Quote: Alexey G
                    But you understand that shelling leads to retaliatory shelling, but not to victory. The enemy can not be defeated and captured.

                    I can say I'm tired of screaming about it. I absolutely do not understand the tactics of assault on the forehead. It is impossible to say that all the fools are at the top, they have different information, respectively, a different logic. I don’t understand the step, when at the beginning of the NWO in the south things were going well, why all the reserves were not thrown there. The landing near Kiev is heroic, but in my opinion, without continuation, it is absolutely meaningless, fortunately there was enough wisdom to leave this direction, which is absolutely unpromising for us. In principle, I am inclined to believe that the level of our command is the maximum offensive division, with a stretch of the army. Unfortunately, wars are not won that way. And as for tank breakthroughs, we probably cannot ensure the secrecy of the concentration (space is not ours and is not closed to the enemy), all large accumulations of equipment become known even at the deployment stage, which allows us to saturate the anti-tank defense. In general, no matter how insulting it sounds, our tactics personally do not cause delight in me, the level of command makes me sad.
                    1. +2
                      17 August 2022 12: 23
                      Thank you for an interesting and productive dialogue
                      1. +2
                        17 August 2022 18: 15
                        Quote: Alexey G
                        Thank you for an interesting and productive dialogue

                        Thank you.
          4. The comment was deleted.
        5. +2
          17 August 2022 04: 25
          About the javelin. According to the author, all its uselessness lies in the fact that the Ukrainians were not trained to use it.
          The fact that they are switching to WWI tactics is for sure. From the words of NWO officers. Ukrainians in all directions switched to the tactics of trench warfare, in some places the depth of the trenches reaches 2.5 meters. Those. you can smoke out of such a shelter only with a direct hit by a heavy projectile. You watch the video from there, the positions of the Ukrainians are pecked by shells around hundreds of craters, but they continue to defend themselves. Only the use of TOC does not always help to break through positions. According to the officers. Poorly trained troops are placed on the first line, they only break through the first line and run into the second, which is defended by more prepared ones. And so step by step. The use of tanks in such a situation - yes, just throw them to slaughter. ATGM minefields, grenade launchers .... a disastrous thing. Apparently for this reason, tanks are used as nomadic firing points. Comes closer and begins to nail with land mines. A maximum of a dozen shots and to the rear, while constantly moving hiding behind terrain or buildings.
    5. -3
      15 August 2022 08: 29
      If they are so bad with the Javelins, then why are our tank divisions marking time?
      In February, there were already tank breakthroughs. Now another war - artillery.
      1. +11
        15 August 2022 09: 32
        Quote: Aviator_
        In February, there were already tank breakthroughs. Now another war - artillery.

        Can your words be understood in such a way that it was the Javelins who stopped the marches of tank columns? Then what is the article about?
        1. +2
          15 August 2022 16: 23
          an article about not idealizing Western weapons. It is not a child prodigy, but it causes problems.
      2. -2
        15 August 2022 13: 08
        Why do breakthroughs continue, but some of them end sadly due to the fact that equipment is not retrofitted with the same anti-mine trawls as an example
        1. 0
          16 August 2022 14: 05
          And so every day there is a feeling that the commanders generally wanted to put equipment on the crew and the crews themselves go anywhere on the drum for their lives, knowing full well that anti-tank mines are poked everywhere - why no one equips advancing tanks with anti-mine weapons in such a way that we will lose all tanks and equipment and part crews irrevocably
    6. +26
      15 August 2022 09: 26
      Instead of creating your own 3rd generation ATGM, the easiest way is to fill someone else's product with feces. Ask the Ministry of Defense to remove the secrecy stamp from the FACTS of the exact defeat of our equipment by the javelin, the worldview of many will change. The inability to use, or the lack of trained operators does not mean that javelins are crap. Ask our specialists who at the training grounds hit our equipment with trafei according to their real effectiveness, hear the bitter truth that bravoda and smehuyoychki will not help in battle, and burning down with a tank is as easy as shelling pears...
      1. +12
        15 August 2022 14: 43
        Exactly. Before you criticize something, you need to make your own. So far, we can’t even make a normal remote control for the Kornet so that the operator does not sit next to the launcher, risking getting a landmine in the face. But for some reason the Khokhlyat "Stugna" has it.
        1. -3
          15 August 2022 16: 15
          Quote: DominickS
          But for some reason, the Khokhlyat "Stugna" has it.

          It only gives an advantage if the launch is detected. In this case, a huge plus is the life of the calculation, at the cost of the launcher. In other cases, from him only harm as a survival. Will explain. After the launch of the same Cornet, the calculation threw off the tube in a few seconds, assembled the installation and makes legs, and Stugna’s calculation is still only returning to it, and if the launch point was not found immediately, then by this time at least the rifleman is already processing the approximate launch direction, but beyond Stugna creep hard. The point is, when a crew without a remote control is already sitting in cover, a crew with a remote control heroically drags the launcher under fire. I think that in most cases, the launcher will be thrown. Stugna is good for sabotage, when the price of the target exceeds the cost of launchers, they disguised themselves, made a remote shot and left without returning.
      2. -1
        15 August 2022 19: 49
        Well, ask the all-knowing you are ours)
    7. 0
      15 August 2022 10: 08
      Before all the movements, Ukraine had more simple ATGMs, including Stugna and Soviet ones, than tanks in the LDNR .... plus supplies of Javelins, Milans, etc. Plus, they trample in the fortified areas, but they didn’t trample before Nikolaev ....
    8. The comment was deleted.
    9. -2
      15 August 2022 16: 11
      Quote: Konnick
      If they are so bad with the Javelins, then why are our tank divisions marking time?

      Because they are doing great with artillery ... why do you need tank columns?
    10. 0
      15 August 2022 19: 43
      They are just waiting on the lead tank.
    11. -3
      15 August 2022 22: 02
      And what, it is necessary, like fools, to rush forward, ignoring the losses? It seems that we are not at war with the Papuans, and they have a lot of weapons, and the fortifications are rebuilt ...
    12. -4
      16 August 2022 01: 19
      But could you be more specific about which of the Russian tank divisions is marking time in Ukraine?
  2. +12
    15 August 2022 04: 16
    The author's words are only partly true. In the hands of trained specialists, javelins become formidable weapons. Let us recall, unfortunately, Belogorovka with dozens of skeletons of burnt equipment
    1. -2
      15 August 2022 16: 04
      Since when did art become Java?
  3. -12
    15 August 2022 04: 30
    Nevertheless "Holy Javelina" became an internet meme

    ***
    “... Do you hear, dear son,
    Through Ukraine,
    Through our hut
    are flying "javelins"... »



    ***
  4. +10
    15 August 2022 04: 50
    Each weapon has advantages and disadvantages (except for the RPG-7), the disadvantages are mainly in the tactics of use. It is not enough to teach aiming, to lead to battle, it is necessary to teach tactics. If a fighter has an unkillable in the head subcortex, everything you want to do with him Kalashnikov and all types of RPGs of the USSR and the Russian Federation, then it is difficult, if not impossible, to rebuild.
  5. +30
    15 August 2022 05: 06
    In general, they are bad. We are fine.
    If you approach from the point of view of the after, an incomprehensible conversion into dollars -
    A Raytheon report states that out of 11 launches, only three were successful. In terms of dollars, this is more than a million thrown into the wind.

    Eleven launches destroyed 3 tanks. Recalculate the cost of knocked out tanks and the cost of the javelin. How many of our tankers died at the same time, and if you are such an accountant, then calculate how much money was spent on training each tanker. You can also calculate how much the state will pay the crippled, the families of the victims.
    So how's the arithmetic?
    1. +23
      15 August 2022 06: 24
      Well ... according to the reports of the Ministry of Defense, our troops are "grinding" the enemy, such as it was intended. We “grind” them, but they don’t “grind” us. Like we are fighting without losses or almost without losses - there are little things except that the ship will sink, the plane will fall by itself, the warehouse will take off into the air, etc. The main thing is that it does without losses. And the Javelin is nonsense, like all Western weapons - it turned out to be difficult for the Sumerians, they don’t know English and therefore they can’t read the instructions. And also a minute to wait when something will be brought into working condition! Absolutely horror. Yes.
      1. +16
        15 August 2022 07: 11
        Video from the military chronicle website
        The regiment got into a circular ambush, from 7 am to XNUMX o'clock they fired from all sides. The operator is alive and well.
        https://ok.ru/video/3720666352256
        The regiment was ambushed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How is this possible??? We are them ... and they are not us
        Another video
        Our soldiers are under enemy artillery fire. Worked from Himarsy. In such a hell, the guys met the holiday on August 2
        https://ok.ru/video/3720274971264

        https://ok.ru/video/3720274905728

        Night Nazi attack on the Antonovsky bridge in Kherson. The MLRS "Himars" worked. Our air defense worked out almost all air targets, but still parts of the missiles managed to hit the target. The video was thrown off by local residents of the city. They write that after such attacks on the city, they simply hate the Kyiv authorities and wish them to burn in hell This is verbatim.

        https://ok.ru/video/3720123517568

        FORBIDDEN interview of an officer of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation about the battles with the Armed Forces of Ukraine: "I felt two splashes in the chest and one in the leg. I fell in front of the Ukrainian"
        (Well, it’s written that it’s forbidden, how is it really a question)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eakt9x4y300

        Starting from 44 minutes on the command and the situation in general.

        How he got hurt. His unit stood in the place of concentration and every day there were arrivals of artillery and beat aviation APU.

        How from where is such aviation, it’s to zero.
        All this is to the fact that much is not being said about the situation as a whole, not being said at all. Silence.
        1. +4
          15 August 2022 12: 42
          And they also accuse the USSR with its silence on everyone and everything, but they themselves have not gone far.
          1. +1
            15 August 2022 13: 01
            It depends on which side)) I'm talking about the accusations ....
            If about the fact that the Union was not a white water - so it was. If about the fact that now, supposedly, it's better - so what should we take from gender-advanced people? Razim that tests ....
          2. -2
            15 August 2022 18: 53
            Quote from AdAstra
            And they also accuse the USSR with its silence on everyone and everything, but they themselves have not gone far.

            I have already written here and I will repeat it again - during military operations, they do not write accurate data on losses. You can hide in two ways - lie or be silent. Ukraine is lying, ours are silent. Do you want the opposite? And the benefit?
      2. -5
        15 August 2022 08: 46
        Like we are fighting without losses or almost without losses - there are little things except that the ship will sink, the plane will fall by itself, the warehouse will take off into the air, etc. The main thing is that it does without losses.
        It is, of course, your irritation with officialdom from Konashenkov is understandable. Officials annoy me too. But during the war, to announce your losses is to work for the enemy. If he knows what is called on-line about the effectiveness of his actions, he will increase their effectiveness, and this is direct complicity. A typical example from the Second World War, the father told. After the liberation of the Crimea in the spring of 1944, their 4th air army was transferred to Belarus and did not make combat sorties for more than a month. The Germans noted this, and the Goebbels department squealed about another victory - the army was nowhere to be found, which means it was destroyed. My father in the regiment (889 NBAP) found one stupid crew, which, having heard such cries, drew on the plywood "We are here, we will show you here again", flew out, dropped this plywood behind the front line, upon returning received from its air defense (no of course, there were no applications for the flights of their aircraft), and landed directly to SMERSH. It's clearly a shootout. They were saved only by the fact that they made their idiotic sortie the day before the Bagration operation, and therefore escaped with a slight fright. Here is the concrete impact of effective propaganda.
        1. +4
          15 August 2022 10: 51
          Any propaganda should feel a reasonable line, which cannot be crossed. If this is done, then the same propaganda only begins to harm.
          You gave an example of the Second World War. OK, let's take another one from there. Sovinformburo reports, starting from June 24, cheerfully reported on the many downed German aircraft, the many destroyed tanks and how our army steadfastly holds the defense, and in some directions even ... etc. And on June 28, the inhabitant suddenly learns in a roundabout way that the Germans, it turns out, have already taken Minsk (on the sixth day of the war). What should he then feel for official propaganda? Complete trust? Here on this resource it has already been said that, if you believe Konashenkov, it is generally not clear what the Armed Forces of Ukraine are fighting with. Everything has long been destroyed and destroyed. I don't know about my losses, maybe they should be plucked. But why exaggerate others? Turn propaganda into a farce? Here we are constantly shown the cult film "Brother-2" with its meme "what is the strength? In truth." I understand that Konashenkov has such a job. But it is necessary to give the information at least some kind of objectivity. After all, any person today is able to click on the search box and see what data about the Armed Forces of Ukraine was published by the RF Ministry of Defense before the start of the WSO? And how do they compare with today's numbers? Even taking into account foreign supplies?
          1. -4
            15 August 2022 16: 00
            Quote from: skeptick2
            . And on June 28, the inhabitant suddenly learns in a roundabout way that the Germans, it turns out, have already taken Minsk (on the sixth day of the war). What should he then feel for official propaganda

            You should read about the losses in the Wehrmacht from the Germans themselves in their reports ...
          2. 0
            15 August 2022 19: 53
            And why did you decide that it was you who measured this edge?
          3. 0
            6 October 2022 22: 15
            In fact, on June 22, 1941, more than 10 percent of the losses of Luftwaffe aircraft accounted for. For one day during the war years.
    2. -4
      15 August 2022 08: 26
      Quote: 28st region
      Eleven launches destroyed 3 tanks. Recalculate the cost of knocked out tanks and the cost of the javelin. How many of our tankers died at the same time, and if you are such an accountant, then calculate how much money was spent on training each tanker. You can also calculate how much the state will pay the crippled, the families of the victims.
      So how's the arithmetic?

      Not every missile hit means the destruction of a tank or the death of the crew in this tank. I remember an interview with one LDNR tanker and, in his words, tanks, as a rule, withstand several hits of anti-tank weapons and you need a lot of luck to hit them in vulnerable places in order to completely disable them. And the bulk of the tankers, as a rule, do not die in the tank, but next to the tank.
    3. -3
      15 August 2022 11: 40
      Quote: 28st region
      Eleven launches destroyed 3 tanks. Recalculate the cost of knocked out tanks and the cost of the javelin. How many of our tankers died at the same time, and if you are such an accountant, then calculate how much money was spent on training each tanker. You can also calculate how much the state will pay the crippled, the families of the victims.
      So how's the arithmetic?


      Wow, how you get carried away trying to protect the Javelin!)
      Firstly, according to statistics, most of the ATGM missiles are fired not at all at tanks, but at such targets as bunkers, firing points in buildings, in shelters, etc.
      Spending a $150 rocket to damage a bunker made of a few logs is not a good idea.

      Secondly, for some reason you are confusing hitting a tank and defeating it. And you confuse the defeat of the tank with its destruction.
      Out of 11 launches, 3 hits. How many of these 3 hits led to the defeat of the tank? How many of these defeats led to the destruction of the tank? Maybe 3, maybe 0.
      This is all the more relevant because, according to passport characteristics, the Javelin must hit targets in 90 percent of cases. But in reality, it affects less than 30 percent. Maybe the armor penetration of the Javelin is several times overestimated.

      Now for the arithmetic.
      11 tanks are moving in position. Of the 11 Javelins fired, 3 hit the target.
      The remaining 8 tanks completed their task. The battalion was rolled out (200-300 people, several armored personnel carriers and trucks, attached mortars, a bunch of different weapons and equipment).
      And now calculate for yourself how much money was spent on training each soldier and officer of the deceased battalion. You can also calculate how much the state will pay the crippled, the families of the victims.
      So how's the arithmetic?
      1. +2
        17 August 2022 04: 33
        Quote: Serg4545

        Now for the arithmetic.
        11 tanks are moving in position. Of the 11 Javelins fired, 3 hit the target.

        Arithmetic is of course necessary, but where have you seen such fights? Fights are positional. And we can’t open this defense in any way. The use of tanks in such conditions is suicidal.
        They are instantly destroyed by the same javelins and other ATGMs, grenade launchers, this is in the event that they were not blown up by mines while they were walking towards enemy positions.
      2. +3
        17 August 2022 04: 58
        Quote: Serg4545
        Spending a $150 rocket to damage a bunker made of a few logs is not a good idea.

        How much does our ATGM cost, for example, an old Soviet Fagot? One rocket costs over $50. Tanks, observation posts, and individual enemy soldiers are scoffing at everything they see. It's like an idea. Well, for reference. For the javelin, the targets are only armored objects, vehicles and everything that radiates heat, not any bunkers and pillboxes. Which is considered a big disadvantage.
        Study weapons and equipment of the enemy. Well, if possible, yours.
        1. +1
          17 August 2022 08: 49
          Quote: 28st region
          Well, for reference. For the javelin, the targets are only armored objects, vehicles and everything that radiates heat, not any bunkers and pillboxes. Which is considered a big disadvantage.
          Study weapons and equipment of the enemy. Well, if possible, your


          For reference. Javelins are very often used for various fortifications.
          https://topwar.ru/35953-srednyaya-broneboynaya-oruzheynaya-sistema-javelin.html

          Quote:
          An additional task of the system is the destruction of bunkers.

          And the Javelin does not aim at objects that radiate heat. The Javelin aims at heat-contrasting objects. That is, it is necessary that the temperature of the object differs from the environment. And therefore, from the Javelin, you can hit an object that is colder than the surrounding objects.
    4. -6
      15 August 2022 12: 02
      Quote: 28st region
      Recalculate the cost of knocked out tanks and the cost of the javelin.
      If they knocked out the T-62, then the javelins are more expensive.
      Quote: 28st region
      How many of our tankers died at the same time
      Javelin is a roofer, which means he hits the engine. 0 deaths from javelins. Further - yes, a stationary tank will have a bad time.
      1. +1
        15 August 2022 12: 44
        Exactly in the engine and dead "0"?
      2. +1
        18 August 2022 10: 09
        Hits the roof of the tank. He has such a program, and that is why ours, before going to / to Ukraine, made umbrellas over tanks. It is against the javelins.
        1. 0
          18 August 2022 19: 56
          Quote: 28st region
          Hits the roof of the tank.
          The engine is much warmer, why should he hit the cold, invisible tower?
          1. +1
            19 August 2022 06: 10
            It is weak to read about this type of weapon, or you, like that artist, see it that way.
            1. 0
              19 August 2022 08: 25
              Quote: 28st region
              It is weak to read about this type of weapon, or you, like that artist, see it that way.
              Submit a link?
              1. +1
                20 August 2022 05: 51
                Affiget!!!!! Have you been blocked in Google or Yandex? Dial the Javelin ATGM and you will get as much material as a description and video.
                1. 0
                  20 August 2022 08: 37
                  Quote: 28st region
                  Dial the Javelin ATGM and you will get as much material as a description and video.
                  Nowhere are his methods of target selection on the terminal section of the trajectory shown. Frames are shown everywhere, as the silhouette of a tank is visible through the scope - and that's it.
                  1. +1
                    22 August 2022 03: 41
                    So I didn’t find anywhere where it was shown or written that the javelin can be fired at ground shelters.
  6. +3
    15 August 2022 05: 32
    Precious. There it is. Yes
    1. -1
      15 August 2022 11: 01
      Send "Spike" Khokhlami, they will test
      1. +6
        15 August 2022 11: 56
        Quote: novel xnumx
        Send "Spike" Khokhlami, they will test

        I passed a normal test in Karabakh. In general, you, just for the sake of showing off, offered to provide assistance to Ukraine in the fight against RA. This is turma.
        1. +1
          15 August 2022 12: 25
          Is it just help? Unjustified hopes only spoil everything
      2. +7
        15 August 2022 12: 37
        On the example of Spike, we just perfectly see that such a complex in capable hands shows itself well.
        Sophisticated electronics do not like shock, dampness and unskilled handling.

        So here, any good sight or teplok will also go in one place on the shooter if you treat it in a different way. But for some reason no one refuses them hi
        1. 0
          23 September 2022 12: 59
          From not too strong blows from the side and dampness, there will be no nichrome to the sight, only the front lens is vulnerable to it, and even then there is a cap for it.
  7. +3
    15 August 2022 05: 42
    The Javelins are excellent at knocking out the Abrams, let's rejoice for them together with the Americans!
  8. kig
    +4
    15 August 2022 05: 50
    If we get detailed statistics on the defeat of domestic armored vehicles by American roof-piercing missiles, then at the end of the military conflict
    - absolutely true, and even then "if". Most likely, if the "dart" turns out to be successful, then you and I - the general public - will not know about it at all. But if indeed, as they say here - three out of eleven hit - then yes, this will become widely known. By the way, this can turn out to be a kind of indicator of success.

    therefore, you will have to operate with open sources
    - Are there many such sources? And how many of them can be trusted if both sides write and talk only about what is beneficial to them? So the author gladly describes only the negative properties of weapons - but this does not happen. There are no minuses without pluses. And vice versa. So the bottom line is: don't trust anyone.
  9. +8
    15 August 2022 06: 02
    Quote: Konnick
    why are our tank divisions marking time?

    Well, this is not a question for the Javelins ... smile
    there is a video from Syria of the successful use of Javelin on the armored Jihad mobile of the ISIS ... a pearl car with a ton of explosives at the enemy’s position in an impudent open desert ... they couldn’t get out of the tank ... they used Javelin ... the detonation of the explosive was impressive.
    1. -4
      15 August 2022 08: 43
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Well, this is not a question for the Javelins ..

      There are also questions for Javelin. If this jihad-mobile did not pass insolently across the desert, but behind a smoke and dust screen of city blocks and buildings, then the ATGM crew would have practically no chance of capturing the target, and if it did, the target would quickly hide behind the buildings and the missile would "fly away where “Something exploded there.”
      1. +2
        15 August 2022 09: 19
        In the article, the author just pointed out a time interval of tens of seconds for capturing a target ...
        did not meet request all the target is gone.
        This is a big drawback of this ATGM and the operator will be in sight ... a good target for a sniper and mortar.
        1. 0
          6 October 2022 22: 20
          And that is not all!
          If the button is pressed and cooling starts, but the tank managed to crawl behind the hut, then the cooler has worked its way, and then the sensor starts to warm up again, and there is no way to shoot without a spare cooler. In principle, like "Arrow 2m" approximately. But the plane has very little cover in the sky ;(
  10. -16
    15 August 2022 06: 37
    The Sodomite States of America have weapons corresponding to the name of the country - PEDERASTIC.
    1. +8
      15 August 2022 14: 48
      Who does it hurt ...
  11. +2
    15 August 2022 06: 48
    Quote: Konnick
    If they are so bad with the Javelins, then why are our tank divisions marking time?

    In addition to javelins and other anti-tank weapons, there are a large number (as they taught at the school) hollows, gouges, and pre-grenades.
    1. +1
      15 August 2022 11: 03
      Yes, and the artillery has not gone away, but against 155 mm it sucks to shove
  12. kig
    +15
    15 August 2022 07: 10
    The Raytheon report reads
    - I was hooked on this phrase, and decided to look, so to speak, for the source. After all, if there was such a report, and you can refer to it, then this means that a link to it must be found somewhere. It is unlikely that a respected author has the opportunity to look into Raytheon's internal sources, which means that the document should be in the public domain. And the link was found! There she is: https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2022-08-10-the-fall-of-%22saint-javelin%22--why-javelin-was-ineffective-in-ukraine.BJErLYb0c.html. And here is the document mentioned by the author:

    At the disposal of RT were internal office documents from Raytheon, which manufactures Javelin. It turned out that the complex is not as good as its advertising booklets for the external market make it out to be.

    True, here he is also only mentioned - he is at the disposal of a certain RT, but even a quote from the document is not given. But only a general conclusion: he is not very good, Javelin, as he should be. Moreover, the conclusion was made by (oh) RT himself. But, gentlemen, this is not serious! It's like "one grandmother said."

    And the article itself by a respected author is only an authorized translation from the mentioned link.
    1. +10
      15 August 2022 08: 42
      Quote: kig
      The Raytheon report reads
      - I was hooked on this phrase, and decided to look, so to speak, for the source. After all, if there was such a report, and you can refer to it, then this means that a link to it must be found somewhere. It is unlikely that a respected author has the opportunity to look into Raytheon's internal sources, which means that the document should be in the public domain. And the link was found! There she is: https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2022-08-10-the-fall-of-%22saint-javelin%22--why-javelin-was-ineffective-in-ukraine.BJErLYb0c.html. And here is the document mentioned by the author:

      At the disposal of RT were internal office documents from Raytheon, which manufactures Javelin. It turned out that the complex is not as good as its advertising booklets for the external market make it out to be.

      True, here he is also only mentioned - he is at the disposal of a certain RT, but even a quote from the document is not given. But only a general conclusion: he is not very good, Javelin, as he should be. Moreover, the conclusion was made by (oh) RT himself. But, gentlemen, this is not serious! It's like "one grandmother said."

      And the article itself by a respected author is only an authorized translation from the mentioned link.

      Under the article you indicated there is a link to the original resource, to which the experience turned out to be ... it turned out to be our domestic mouthpiece of the propaganda “Russia Today” (“rush today” in overseas) ... the author refers to a study (and is it a study?) of journalists who, for the money of our government talks (most often without evidence, and often just inventing them) about how everything is wonderful with our government ... it turns out that we ourselves came up with a mantra about “inefficiency” and we ourselves eat it ...
    2. +18
      15 August 2022 08: 48
      Quote: kig
      some RT

      Russia Today, Margo Simonyan.

      A worthy woman, you can trust. The last amazing truth from Margo is that during the smoke in Saki, the VKS equipment was not damaged.
    3. +3
      15 August 2022 08: 53
      And the article itself by a respected author is only an authorized translation from the mentioned link.
      The author is a professional writer, lives by literary work.
  13. BAI
    +17
    15 August 2022 08: 50
    In the news on our TV, which there is no reason not to believe, they showed the villainous DRG of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which was tied up in the cemetery. As a matter of fact, this is what the news was devoted to - the war in the cemetery. But they added the following in detail: this is a group of 4 people, carrying Javelins and destroyed 4 tanks and 2 helicopters. Everything was recorded on video. The destruction of our helicopter was shown by our own TV.
    4 people with Javelins - 4 tanks, 2 helicopters. This is an excellent result. With us, they would become heroes of the Russian Federation.
    1. -2
      15 August 2022 21: 18
      Either you didn't read the information, or you're lying now. That DRG shot down a helicopter with an ATGM, but not a javelin.
  14. -12
    15 August 2022 09: 31
    Another confirmation that the heaped up ov weapons often do not withstand practical use in the troops! (((
  15. +7
    15 August 2022 09: 38
    So, the first rule - use only by qualified users, is not respected.

    This applies to any ATGM.
    For example, in urban development, to which the complex is adapted very conditionally.

    The Armed Forces of Ukraine have plenty to choose from for urban development, too, something, and they were given plenty of RPGs.
    the advertised product can very conditionally be classified as an anti-tank system. First of all, because of the effective firing range - no more than 2,5 km.

    Nonsense. Has the bassoon from 2,5 km also ceased to be an ATGM?
    Here, the operator is more unmasked by the laser radiation of the rangefinder

    No rangefinder.
  16. +12
    15 August 2022 09: 42
    Sorry, but the Javelin does not have a remote control monitor to broadcast the missile flight and target engagement to the network. Hence the lack of lack of video evidence of "reliable hitting the target."
    The author writes: "Javelin is a product for fighting tanks in open space." Any ATGM is primarily a product for fighting tanks in open space, and the same Cornet having a minimum launch distance or, quoting the author, a "dead zone" of 100 m, does not represent an exception to this series. Suggest on this basis and declare it rubbish?
    Discharged batteries are the result of a long conservation of the product before delivery from the warehouses of the British Army and the United States Army and its hasty delivery without re-preservation and preparation for use, which the British themselves wrote about and that they eliminated.
    A very biased article.
  17. +5
    15 August 2022 10: 10
    I’m still wondering why TOU-2V didn’t go to Ukraine ..... there are a lot of them, there are interesting missiles, they are cheaper ..... they penetrate everything, there are complexes on armored personnel carriers.
    1. +6
      15 August 2022 12: 29
      hi
      IMHO, and it will come to Tou.

      But the Javelin is more efficient, more mobile, lighter - why take the previous generation ATGMs (Tou), while there are and give the following for the Armed Forces of Ukraine (Javelins)?

      In fact, a more interesting question is when (and "if") Spikes (and their "clones", the French have their own options), Rolands / Crotali (and their options) in terms of air defense and more "ancient" art than 777 .
      1. 0
        15 August 2022 12: 39
        There are a lot of targets here, where weapons sharpened for tanks are not needed ..... This is from the 30 mm series on the A10 attack aircraft ..... cool, pierces, beautiful ...... but only for a tank .....
    2. 0
      15 August 2022 12: 56
      Over time, the United States and their Armed Forces will begin to transmit along with the buggy - they drove up, fired a rocket at armored vehicles and quickly dumped from the position.
  18. +12
    15 August 2022 10: 53
    I propose to put the author in a tank and hit him with a javelin. And several times. And after that, he will not write any more articles. None. In general, this is a mockery of the burned and blown up tankers. However, nothing new.
  19. -18
    15 August 2022 10: 53
    Hmmm... I've read a lot of local comments... it feels like they are mostly happy here that the javelin is a good miracle weapon and crushes our soldiers and equipment to shreds. Yes, yes, this is the impression one gets after reading the comments (with rare exceptions). You say yes, don't talk - you look like a bunch of traitors.
    1. +11
      15 August 2022 11: 27
      If there are no other arguments in the dispute, the easiest way is to declare the opponent a traitor, a liberal, and the devil knows who else. Not everyone thinks in TV clichés. As you can see, people prefer arguments and facts to throwing show-offs and golem stupidity.
      1. -3
        15 August 2022 15: 51
        Quote: Kiril Letov
        If there are no other arguments in the dispute, the easiest way is to declare the opponent a traitor, a liberal, and the devil knows who else. Not everyone thinks in TV clichés. As you can see, people prefer arguments and facts to throwing show-offs and golem stupidity.

        You just don’t need to go to extremes ... in the comments, people rush from “everything is gone” and “yes, we them ...” some are disgusting and others are funny. And about the shortcomings of Java, the warring in Ukraine has long been said ...
      2. -8
        15 August 2022 16: 21
        All my arguments are above my first post - read for yourself. People do not analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the javelins, do not put forward proposals on how to fight and destroy them... They frankly admire them. They love them. Is this a worship of the West (the enemy)? Not ... with such warriors we will not go far, so you can sell your homeland for a javelin.
        Do not distort, I did not call anyone a liberal, I just said that it looks like a betrayal. And so it is.
    2. +10
      15 August 2022 11: 42
      You see.
      1. A bunch of traitors - all this "military-patriotic" party. Because the constant lies are detrimental to the cause. ALWAYS goes to the detriment of the cause.
      2. Considering the quality of the produced and consumed information product, every day we also see coprophilia - and this in itself is an unpleasant sight for a healthy person.
      1. 0
        15 August 2022 16: 52
        Do you want the truth? Are you sure? Remember the WWII poster "The Motherland Calls"? I like it, I don't know about you. So ... this is a blatant lie. The Motherland is a hunched, zatyukany woman wandering home after a work shift and thinking about what to feed her children. Do you want this truth? Do you want real summaries of losses? But who will give them to you? If you are the first to run all over the Internet with the "good" news, you will shout about it at every corner. This will greatly contribute to the patriotic upsurge of the population and the army. Although you can go to study, graduate from the Academy of the General Staff and you will have all the data, but I think then you yourself will classify them.
        The word is what they found ... - party.
        1. +4
          15 August 2022 17: 49
          Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
          Do you want the truth?

          Not prevent.
          Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
          The Motherland is a hunched, zatyukany woman wandering home after a work shift and thinking about what to feed her children. Do you want this truth?

          Naturally.
          Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
          But who will give them to you?

          To me? Nobody is going.
          Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
          This will greatly contribute to the patriotic upsurge of the population and the army.

          Do you doubt the courage of the Russian people? Not too much, I see, love the Russians.

          You see what a deal.
          1. You confuse the theses "tell the whole truth" and "lie less." You can't tell the truth - sit, be silent.
          2. Let me remind you, if you have forgotten, that the first stage of the special military operation involved the capture of the country's capital in the first days, a maximum of a week. The second, "concrete" stage involved the capture of the regional center (Severodonetsk - Lisichansk) in about three months. At the third, "effective" stage of the special military operation, the astonished public has been watching the battle for Peski for the third week - a village, not to say a village two kilometers from the city limits of Donetsk.

          A patriot would say that in such a situation, various kinds of civil servants should already stop lying and answer for their actions - including before the tribunal. But I'm not a patriot - it's easier for me.
          1. -1
            15 August 2022 19: 27
            I doubt it very much. Despite the fact that this is more likely not about masculinity, but about the psychology of the crowd. I will also remind you of the beginning of the special operation, have you forgotten how people took salt, sugar, cereals, canned food, etc. from the shelves? And when the first sanctions were introduced...remember the stampede in stores leaving the Russian market? What about dollars? This is generally a song - to buy up the currency of your potential enemy ... perhaps this is an indicator of special masculinity? This is not the USSR for you, where ideology ruled the ball - now people are different - no one will tell you that "it's a shame for the state" ... They just collect their belongings and shrug off who goes where. Tell the crowd that tomorrow they will start shelling the Crimea and they will bring down the Crimean bridge with their influx. To keep your back straight, you need to be able to lose, and the current population of Russia with its petty-bourgeois morality will not do this - Apple is more important to them than a straight back. Eh ... I would like to be wrong in my assumptions ... So no truth to them if you do not want to panic.
    3. +7
      15 August 2022 12: 47
      But hatred and underestimation is it better or what?
      1. +7
        15 August 2022 13: 03
        Appointed!! And it's better and more pleasant and vaaschsche .... "Thunder of victory, resound, have fun, brave ross!"
      2. -2
        15 August 2022 17: 03
        And you do not throw your hats - look for the weak points of your enemy's weapons, ways of neutralizing and destroying. Treat this weapon as an enemy weapon, don't admire it.
    4. 0
      23 September 2022 13: 17
      It's simple, cisso are grazing here.

      The text of your comment is too short and in the opinion of the site administration does not carry useful information.
  20. -1
    15 August 2022 11: 47
    The Hussites, Saudi tanks (American) RPGs managed to knock out ... Jevelins, they did not demand from suppliers.
  21. +8
    15 August 2022 11: 48
    Stugna is a good weapon, with already proven effectiveness and quite simple to implement. All you had to do was to spread the starting tripod with the operator's cable to a safe distance! But the actual success of Stugna is multiplied by videos on the network for the simple reason that, due to the manual guidance system, a spectacular video is already on the operator’s screen, it remains to shoot it with a smartphone of the second calculation number! And the "javelin" is not so cinematic, fired and took cover. And there is no one to shoot, often. Artillery is even worse (from the director's point of view). In one place, they shoot many times somewhere, in another place the tank suddenly stops.

    Therefore, the videos give a distorted picture of the actual effectiveness of the weapon. ATGMs seem to me the last means of anti-tank defense, which is used because the infantry does not have a heavier one. The ability to "snarl" in response. The creators of the javelins probably expected that the bulk of the tanks would be destroyed by aircraft. Partisans and slippers have no choice. They fight with what they have.

    ...a column of tanks is driving along the highway without any cover. *Suddenly* from the landing on the side they begin to shoot "javelins" and - wow! - two tanks immediately knock out. Is it an effective weapon? Without a doubt, we see the result in the video. What about tactics (on both sides)?..
  22. -4
    15 August 2022 12: 22
    "You can expect everything from the Reds ... however, from the Americans too. I have been fighting them for a year. These fools will be destroyed by their own equipment!"(c) 17 Moments of Spring.
  23. +6
    15 August 2022 15: 13
    Again hat throwers on horseback.
  24. -3
    15 August 2022 15: 47
    Damn, again about Java ...
  25. +1
    15 August 2022 20: 50
    no matter how many Javelins knocked out, given the lack of training of the contingent ...
    the important thing is that he also played a role in the fact that the tanks turned into self-propelled guns ...
    just like MANPADS, they influenced the flights of the airborne forces, practically without shooting down planes ...
  26. +3
    15 August 2022 22: 54
    Javelin, this is exactly the weapon where "not everything is so simple." So, let's start.
    a) A person needs to be trained. According to the US ARMY nomenclature, an ATGM operator is MOS 0352. Training for this profession is from 6 weeks (in the Marines), and up to 10 weeks (in the Army). And this is AFTER Basic Training. Furthermore. As we say in the Army. "A soldier only after 6 months of service ceases to be a useless burden for his squad / platoon, and only after a year of service does he begin to understand at least something in what he is doing." By the way, this is why our officers and sergeants do not understand how a person can serve for 1 year, but you cannot teach him anything during this time so that he is at a normal level. So, I doubt that the Hohlonedovermacht gives its raguli 6 weeks to master the anti-tank systems. This is number one
    b) Javelin is NOT DESIGNED for point-blank use. From the word at all. He has a pretty dead zone. And this should ALWAYS be remembered. Up to the point that you need to refuse to start.
    c) The main advantage of the Javelin is mobility. GOS Javelina, not quite perfect. That is, the person must AIM the javelin at the target, wait 20 seconds until the GOS captures the target, that is, the operator must ACCOMPANY the target. And then the start is turned on. Where the thermal contrast is small (Tank on hot asphalt in summer, around concrete houses heated by the sun), target acquisition may take longer. Now look. The TOU-2 operator should not wait. Aimed the anti-tank system at the target, pressed the trigger and guided the target. Exactly like in Javelin. Only while the javelin waits for capture (20 seconds on average), the Tou2 missile will already reach the target by that time. Naturally, the TOU-2 is heavier and more powerful than the javelin. But what is said about the TOU-2 is absolutely true for the much lighter MILAN. That is, while Javelin is only capturing the target, TOU-2 or Milan, or XOT have already flown to the target and HIT.
    It seems to me that Javelin, although not a bad ATGM, is, firstly, unnecessarily expensive, and secondly, there are a lot of restrictions on use, for example, Javelin cannot be launched remotely (Milan - you can). And most importantly, the Israeli SPIK, not only is it more powerful than the javelin, it is also devoid of many of its shortcomings (but also expensive). If the Armed Forces of Ukraine received MILAN or TOU instead of Javelin, it would be much worse. If only because both Milan and TOU2 operate on the SACLOS system, as well as many Soviet / Russian / Ukrainian ATGMs.

    As for the tank losses of your army, I think they are rather big. Obviously not 20 or 50 tanks. If your tank losses were small, you would not return the obsolete T-62s to service. But I won’t name the number of your tank losses, since I simply don’t have information. And your Defense Ministry does not talk about its losses, but like Arestovich, it screams about many victories. I give an example "As a result of the strike, up to 300 military units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were destroyed," your Defense Ministry says. UP TO 300. This is a huge range. X<300. One crashed APU shnik is also "up to 300", so it's also impossible to understand anything specific from the information of your MO. Exactly like Arestovich's.
    For example, your MO is completely silent about the fact that at least 3 S-300 launchers were destroyed by American HARMs. What does it mean? This means that the Khokhloschweinen under-Luftwaffe, not only was not destroyed, but, equipped with American anti-radar missiles, inflicts specific losses on the military air defense of the Russian army. But your about this - SILENCE. The silence of your Defense Ministry, in general, works for the Armed Forces of Ukraine and Arestovich.
  27. +1
    15 August 2022 23: 51
    Losses in the columns, the failure of the first stage of the operation, the difficulties in storming cities, as it were, tell us the opposite.
  28. 0
    16 August 2022 00: 24
    Bandera have to learn already on the battlefield

    author, Bandera ended in March.
    change methodology. we are at war with the regular army,
    which is provided with at least communications and intelligence better than us.
  29. -1
    16 August 2022 01: 21
    Isn't there too much dill in the comments?
  30. +1
    16 August 2022 13: 55
    If our army does not use massive tank strikes against the Nazis, then their anti-tank defense and its means, including javelins, are in order and quite effective.
    1. -2
      16 August 2022 14: 23
      Ukraine received tens of thousands of anti-tank weapons from the West, in addition to them, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had their own tens of thousands of anti-tank weapons for 8 years, they did not lose time, they produced Stugna and Skif anti-tank systems and shots for RPG 7, and they inherited from the USSR hundreds of thousands of anti-tank mines TM 62 and TM 72 TM 83 and millions of anti-personnel - given this and judging by how many tanks ours in Ukraine have lost over these six months, it becomes clear why deep tank breakthroughs were abandoned, and even now our forces do not have such forces for rapid mass breakthroughs due to the large length of the front of more than 1300 kilometers .
  31. 0
    16 August 2022 20: 13
    Adding fuel to the fire is the need to wait 45 to 90 seconds.

    How??? It can't be, seriously? Where does such information come from?
    Even 40 seconds is VERY long. During this time, the calculation of the second generation ATGM will aim, fire, bring the missile and already hit the tank. And the tank itself will be able to simply get away from guidance. Throw smoke there, or just drive over the hill / trees.
    And exactly 45-90 seconds? Maybe they meant from 4.5 to 9 seconds?
    1. 0
      23 September 2022 14: 40
      No, there is no mistake, there is cooling of the teplak from half a minute. Another thing is that they are working on a version that runs on teplok without cooling.
  32. 0
    19 August 2022 14: 00
    "
    By the way, this is how public opinion about the Ukrainian “wunderwaffen” is formed. But even with such a fine propaganda setting...
    it works both ways
  33. -1
    15 September 2022 17: 45
    The article looks like a digest or political information, all sorts of paragraphs are pulled from everywhere. It makes no sense to print this.
  34. -1
    18 September 2022 10: 20
    The javelin has a battery, not a battery, a range of up to 4 km
  35. Eug
    0
    3 October 2022 06: 52
    A strange article - it contains more about the shortcomings of the training system for the use of anti-tank systems. It seems like the expression "technology in the hands of a savage - a pile of metal"
    has not lost its relevance, but I strongly doubt that in ZSU and ter.defense it is impossible to find l / s who know English at least at the initial level and at the same time are neat and thrifty, i.e. the question is not for the creators, but for organizational structures. And then - 11 launches, 3 hit targets. We consider - 11x150: 000 = 3 - the cost of one hit target, which, according to minimal estimates, is one third of the cost of "hardware" for even an infantry fighting vehicle, even an armored personnel carrier, even a T-550, and this is without taking into account damage to the crew and the potential damage that could be caused by a hit goal. I do not want to say that JAVA is a child prodigy, but as part of an anti-tank weapons system - as for me, quite, especially for mobile groups in the field. And you should not belittle the capabilities and equipment of the enemy - otherwise there will be even more questions about "regroupings" ...
  36. 0
    20 October 2022 21: 56
    Hat throwers on the march. Do not worry about their billions, they will print as much as necessary.
  37. 0
    28 October 2022 15: 12
    but the laurels of the creators of the "wonder weapon" do not allow Javelin developers to sleep peacefully.

    Not the laurels of the creators, but the maximum nailed do not allow private business to sleep peacefully.
  38. 0
    28 October 2022 15: 32
    Quote: Eug
    And then - 11 launches, 3 hit targets. We consider - 11x150: 000 = 3 - the cost of one hit target, which, according to minimal estimates, is a third of the cost of "iron" even an infantry fighting vehicle, even an armored personnel carrier, even a T-550,

    3 out of 11 are on ranges, on targets that do not offer resistance. On the battlefield, one must count how many Javelins were lost for all reasons, how many real targets hit, how many of these hits ended in the destruction of the target.
    As far as we know, several thousand Javelins have already been lost, and several dozen targets have been destroyed, and there are several dozen more damaged targets. For every 100 Javelins lost, one tank or armored vehicle is destroyed and one is damaged.
    Then 15 million dollars is the cost of one hit target and the repair of another.

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