Russian response to HIMARS: Kama and Uragan-1M systems

MLRS 9A52-4 "Kama" from Perm. Source: wikipedia.org

Chimera is not the only one

One of the main advantages of foreign wheeled MLRS HIMARS is high mobility and stealth. A three-axle 300-horsepower FMTV truck with a folded launcher is not much different from a conventional military vehicle. This allows HIMARS to remain unnoticed for aerial reconnaissance and, due to its high power density, quickly leave the missile launch zone. The average speed of movement on public roads by the car is similar to the domestic MLRS "Grad". If we add to this the high flight speed, range and accuracy, then each HIMARS is a rather dangerous, albeit overestimated, enemy. Russian anti-aircraft gunners have already learned how to hit missiles, despite the low effective target dispersion area - no more than 0,1. Evil tongues in propaganda channels have already managed to christen imported equipment that has no analogues in the world, especially in Russia. But it's not. Among domestic developments, one can find at least a couple of machines capable of fighting imported impostors in terms of a combination of parameters.

Let's start with a system that has already been put into service - MLRS 9A53 Uragan-1M. Before the special operation, few people remembered this car, but the artificial excitement around HIMARS and the tracked MLRS makes us pay special attention to this unique development. The RZSO is based on the MZKT-7930 Astrolog four-axle chassis, which at one time caused a lot of controversy. About 8-9 years ago, when the union of Belarus and Russia was not so unambiguous, the question of replacing the Minsk chassis with the Bryansk Voshchina-1 was considered. On the latter, by the way, domestic air defense systems are based, for example, the S-350 Vityaz and S-400 Triumph. Critics had a lot of arguments in favor of the domestic chassis. For example, the Mazov cabin is plastic, which makes it impossible to armor, unlike the steel BAZ. This is now of particular relevance, given the density and accuracy of artillery fire in Ukraine. By the way, all HIMARS are well armored. Back in the 2010s, the Bryansk Automobile Plant developed two chassis with armored cabs - BAZ-6910 and BAZ-6306. The armor corresponded to the highest 6a protection class, but in the end turned out to be unclaimed.

"Hurricane-1M" in the 300-mm version. Source: wikipedia.org

Uragan-1M on the Minsk chassis (which is unified with the Iskander-M rocket launcher) was put into service in 2016 and can be considered the ideological follower of the Uragan based on the ZIL-135LM with its bizarre transmission. Recall that the predecessor has two carburetor motors, each of which drives the left and right row of wheels. The new RZSO has a 500-horsepower diesel engine that drives all wheels through the usual cross-axle differentials. At the same time, Uragan-1M can become a replacement for the more powerful Smerch system equipped with a 300-mm launcher. In terms of size, the cars have full parity - the length is more than 12,5 meters, the height and width are about 3 meters. But further improvements begin, allowing us to call 1M a new generation of technology. At least in Russia. The point is the bicaliber nature of the RZSO - depending on the tasks, 220-mm and 300-mm guides can be installed on the machine. In the first case, there are 30 "pipes" at once, in the second - 12. Therefore, it would be more accurate to call Uragan-1M a competitor not to the wheeled HIMARS, but to the tracked MLRS M270, equipped with 12 227-mm caliber guides. In the "light" version, "Hurricane-1M" creates a fire density similar to MLRS in 0,0014 kg / m² (for the American system - 0,00135 kg / m²). At the same time, the Russian machine sends missiles to the target 8 seconds faster. With 220 mm MLRS modules, it can hit targets at a distance of 45 km. The main bonus of the new "Hurricane" is a batch reload, which allows you to equip missiles in just five minutes. For this, a special transport-loading machine or TZM is used. Some commentators point out that the American MLRS do not have TZM at all, referring to the standard loading ramp for self-assembly of the missile package. Of course, this somewhat expands the autonomy, but is not a fundamental advantage. Moreover, the HIMARS and M172 have an ammunition transporter. The domestic development does not provide for crane equipment on the MLRS chassis, but the TZM is capable of changing missiles not separately, but as part of transport and launch containers. This allows you to achieve a recharge time comparable to imported samples.

Above "Hurricane-1M" with 220-mm modules, below - with 300-mm. Source: S. V. Gurov

In the 300-mm version, the machine accommodates two unified 9Ya295 transport and launch containers with six guides each, which will be discussed later. A similar reloading scheme is implemented in vehicles based on the KAMAZ Mustang chassis.

Two MLRS - four axles

To accommodate six 300-mm missile guides from the Tornado-S / Smerch complex, the KamAZ-6350 8x8 chassis was chosen. The result was a relatively compact machine with a length of 11,2 m, a full overall width of 2,5 m and a height of 3,1 m. The gross weight of 23,6 tons is almost half that of the Uragan-1M. This allows the MLRS to pass through bridges with a carrying capacity of up to 25 tons. In 2007, the 9A52-4 Smerch machine was shown to the public for the first time. It is noteworthy that the MLRS appeared to the world at the International Aviation and Space Salon MAKS-2007. Six 300-mm rockets are placed in the unified container 9Ya95 mentioned above, which makes it possible to significantly speed up reloading. The dimensions of the sealed container are 7512x1130x996mm, the curb weight is 6,2 tons, the empty one is 1,42 tons. Lightweight "Smerch" on the KAMAZ chassis allows you to more effectively deal with enemy counter-battery systems and distribute the MLRS more evenly along the front. A compact car is much easier to disguise, and on the march, a four-axle KamAZ with an awning is easy to confuse with the equipment of the engineering troops. The machine has a high degree of automation of all processes, a crew of 2 people, and a full package of missiles goes to the target in no more than 20 seconds. Unfortunately, at that time no one was interested in the MLRS of the Perm Motovilikha Plants, and the car remained experimental.

Early MLRS based on KamAZ. Below is a sealed transport and launch container 9Ya295. Source: S. V. Gurov

In 2009, they showed a modernized version of the 300-mm MLRS, which received the name 9A54-2 "Kama". The differences are minimal - instead of a sealed container for missiles, an open MZ-196 was installed. It is somewhat wider and much heavier - in curb condition 7,3 tons, empty - 2,5 tons. In terms of performance, the leaky container does not differ from its predecessor. It similarly guarantees the safety of missiles in the temperature range from -40 to +50 degrees Celsius, humidity up to 98% and wind speed up to 20 m/s. MLRS "Kama" was shown for the first time in Nizhny Tagil at the REA-2009 exhibition complete with a transport-loading vehicle.

Transport-loading vehicle for "Kama". Source: S. V. Gurov

Late version of the MLRS 9A52-4 "Kama" with leaky guide packages. Source: wikipedia.org

MLRS based on KamAZ can use the entire range of available 300-mm rockets, which means that the range can reach 90 km. Some promising ammunition with dual-mode engines can reach the enemy at a distance of 100 km or more.

All the above systems are good. And long-range, and self-aiming, and fast reloading, only there are no “Kama” in the troops at all, and “Hurricane-1M” is found in single copies.

Comments

[IVZ]

Immediately striking is the unarmored and not mine-resistant crew cabin, in contrast to the "chimera".

[Viktor Sergeev]

Are you joking? Do you really believe that armor will protect you from something? Armor will only increase weight, reduce mobility and make the price sky-high. MLRS protection is its mobility.

[IVZ]

No jokes. In the age of high-precision weapons, mobility does not save much, so everyone and everything is trying to book or strengthen the armor, from the NIB of a fighter to a tank, which reduces the range of weapons and (or) reduces the dangerous distance. In addition, an increase in weight due to cabin reservation will add 2-4% to the combat mass, no more, and is unlikely to somehow affect the mobility of the system. In addition, armor dramatically increases the chances of survival of a combat crew, and this is a very important resource in modern conditions.

[Sexton]

How long will this pervasive stupidity continue? Why stupid articles and stupid comments. Russia has the Tornado-S MLRS with 9M544 and 9M549 precision missiles. Borisov lied that there would be up to 90 of them by the end of 2021. There are several dozens of such systems in service, but they are not used in the AtoN for unknown reasons. There is no target designation for an accurate missile guided by Glonass in the advanced Russian Army. Gerasimov's HANDS and ROCKs exist only on paper. On paper, the system includes a UAV with real-time targeting capability. Projectile range up to 120 km. What UAV can provide real-time target designation and a picture at a distance of 100 km? But you can shoot at stationary targets! When will this mess stop!
https://missilery.info/missile/tornado-s

[Viktor Sergeev]

Tornadoes and hammer on stationary objects. Can you tell me what transmits information for Caliber, Iskander, etc.? Are you obsessed with UAVs or do you think they are omnipotent? There are many types of intelligence.

[State]

You can visit a stationary object using Yandex maps.

[Dimax-nemo]

1. Tornado-S, at least, were used in a special operation.
2. Tornado-S has one reload left.

[Nikolay Khromov]

Probably when you take it upon yourself to put things in order. How long will this pervasive stupidity continue? Why are these stupid comments from "specialists" who are only experts here

[Maverick1812]

While the "Gerasimovs" rule

[Cottodraton]

An armored cabin will not save you from high-precision weapons. But mobility is quite.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Armoring the cabin with armor of 8-10 millimeters will lead to an increase in weight, a shift in the center of gravity and an increase in the load on the front axle, an increase in price and fuel consumption. If the installation was covered with rockets or 152mm shells, then the armor is useless. It makes sense to book self-propelled guns, it is less mobile, it works from close distances.

[TIR]

With what fright did you decide that armor against fragments is not needed ??? When the position of the MLRS is covered by enemy unguided rockets, the main damage comes from the fragments. For a rocket from a MLRS to hit a combat vehicle exactly, this almost never happens. According to the principle of the same Typhoons, you need to book our MLRS. This will save you from mines, and from fragments during counter-battery fire, and from riflemen during ambushes. Or in a concert full of holes from a civilian Kamaz with glasses from ordinary Zhiguli to leave the position when it was covered, or on a Typhoon. You should put such innovators in a KAMAZ and send them under a package from Grad. Immediately start thinking in the right way

[Voronezh]

Armor will protect against fragments during a retaliatory strike or from small arms on the march. Even one saved life is incomparable with the mythical additional expenses. This is the same as the gratings that the GABTU does not purchase because of the "high cost"

[super-vitek]

And if on the march, when changing positions, an artillery attack, an ambush by a DRG? With a close gap, the crew has no chance ... Absolutely ... In the realities of current conflicts, armor is necessary.

[Grandfather Luka]

+1
"And if on the march, when changing positions, an artillery attack, an ambush by a DRG? With a close gap, the crew has no chance ... Absolutely ... In the realities of current conflicts, armor is necessary."
With a close gap, the package detonates, and all the armor, along with the crew, scatters around the area.

[TIR]

There, with a close arrival, only a bent sieve will remain from an unarmored cabin, where the calculation will be collected in pieces. Even if the gap is far away, the fragments will still break through the body tin. Not from a good life, our Kamaz trucks began to be hung with sheets of iron. At least cover yourself from the splinters. Well, you can, for example, hang paper sheets around the cockpit with scientific justifications that MLRS armor and transport vehicles are not needed. Then, of course, not a single fragment will slip through this scribble

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

Are you joking? Do you really believe that armor will protect you from something?

IT PROTECTS FROM SHARDS!!! GET YOURSELF IN ALL PLACES!!!

[TIR]

From TM will also leave the calculation in this world. It will also cover from the shooter. At least give you time to survive as long as the armored glass is holding

[KCA]

Why booking 45-120 km from the enemy? 20 seconds salvo, 30 seconds to roll up and leave the position, and the group going in front should protect against possible DRGs or mines

[IVZ]

1. 45-120 km is not always and not to the enemy, but to the target. The depth of the target location can be any within the reach of the MLRS.
2. The presence of forward guards in combat conditions is not always possible and only reduces the risks, but does not eliminate them completely.
3. Aerial reconnaissance and elementary analytics with the calculation of possible routes and speeds, taking into account the characteristics of the mobility of the base chassis, have not been canceled, and the shelling of the places of the alleged location of the target with cluster or fragmentation BPs is quite an effective measure of counter-battery combat.

[DenVB]

Quote: KCA

Why booking 45-120 km from the enemy?

Range is used to engage targets deep behind enemy lines, not to secure the launcher by firing from deep behind. Or do you think that missiles only hit targets at the forefront?

[surok1]

And why is there an analogue of Himars at all, when the actual fight against them, and not spitting. To do this, if there is already air supremacy, it is necessary to saturate the sky of the UAV to the limit. The Iranians can supply them at cost and this is causing panic in some places. Good air defense, plus drones. This is almost a sniper-machine gun pair.

[Romario_Argo]

the question is what systems for self-aiming missiles are used
if optical, then this is illumination from an UAV, a couple will be able to mark 2 targets
then a volley of 6 missiles is the most, with a delay of 5 seconds to re-illuminate targets
if according to the radar, then this is more targets and we mark everyone at once
but, it’s pale and you need satellites, they also jam
if the option is used in a package of 12 guided missiles, then we simply increase the fire effect over time, we still work from 100 km

[ramzay21]

Why booking 45-120 km from the enemy?

In an age when even Iran has massive attack UAVs with a range of over 150 km, what is it that is 100 km from the front line in an unarmored MLRS cabin?

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

Why booking 45-120 km from the enemy? 20 seconds salvo, 30 seconds to roll up and leave the position, and the group going in front should protect against possible DRGs or mines

It is because of such stupidity that we are now suffering huge losses in people when our columns and bases are detected by an enemy UAV or satellite and rocket and artillery strikes are launched at them !!!

All equipment that is used within the range of artillery, MLRS and OTRK of the enemy must have at least anti-fragmentation armor !!!

Look at Hymars, he has a missile range of 40 to 300 km, while the armor is like that of our Typhoon !!!

And all the same, there are "smart guys" who shout why the armor, there must be some kind of group to protect someone.

You don't have enough shots of our broken columns?

Few shots of our broken crossings?

Few shots blown up by mines with the loss of our trucks?

There are few shots where our fighters are trying to somehow protect these unfortunate Kamaz trucks with the remnants of a hull with lined vehicles and logs?

[Herman 4223]

This will not save the crew, hitting a mine or shelling is not important. The detonation of ammunition, 100 kg warhead will not leave a chance for the crew.
The defeat of such systems in most cases is a counter-battery fight or air strikes.

[IVZ]

Position detection occurs, in the vast majority of cases, after a volley, i.e. shooting BK. In addition, initiating the undermining of the warhead of the ammunition by firing it is also not such an easy task.

[Herman 4223]

Well, this is how to say, there are several examples in this conflict. For example, some unique people set fire to hail, and then a miracle detonated the ammunition, there is a video with the shelling of the S-300 launcher, there the warhead is also about 100 kg, like in a chimers, the detonation was very beautiful.
And the fact that detection occurs after a salvo is also not much help.
Only an immediate change of position, a quick departure from the place of the salvo can save. To do this, the machines must be as mobile and light as possible. If the vehicles did not leave in time, then light armor is not protection against a volley from an artillery division.

[Romario_Argo]

on the march, all these MLRS are accompanied by security units
up to tanks, armored personnel carriers and armored combat vehicles (there is a mine detector), infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, electronic warfare / electronic warfare (mine suppressor) the same Foliage
even at a distance of 50 km from the front.

[TIR]

What kind of nonsense??? Reconsidered American militants, where is one shot in the gas tank and the car is in tatters? Why did you decide that the BC would detonate from a mine explosion?

[qQQQ]

Quote: IVZ

Immediately striking is the unarmored and not mine-resistant crew cabin, in contrast to the "chimera".

In my opinion, their absence in the troops is immediately striking. They made a single copy to carry around exhibitions and cut loot on supposedly deliveries. We have such a wagon and a small cart that have no analogues, but the weapons of the 80-90s are fighting. And the value of the Chimeras is in the accuracy of their missiles, and the salvo time and range are already secondary. As far as I saw, a full salvo fits into a circle of 20 meters, unfortunately our Hurricanes and Tornadoes give 200 meters, or even more, the difference is huge.

[IVZ]

Sacramental, but always relevant phrase. "There are no trifles in war." There are only unjustified losses. In general, as a former defense designer, I think that the possible problem of the lack of relevant modern models in the troops is either design flaws that prevent the adoption of systems for service (but do not interfere with the developer’s PR), or production difficulties with import substitution in particular.

[qQQQ]

Quote: IVZ

In general, as a former defense designer, I think that the possible problem of the lack of relevant modern models in the troops is either design flaws that prevent the adoption of systems for service (but do not interfere with the developer’s PR), or production difficulties with import substitution in particular.

It may well be, but if you dig deeper, then the absence of any elements and (or) their failed import substitution is the result of corruption and incompetence of management.

[IVZ]

I agree with you.

[Snail N9]

Again, machines are compared in terms of power, cross-country ability, caliber and range, and again the most important thing in KHIMARS is taken out of the brackets - direct and remote target designation in real time and from different sources and the highest hit accuracy equal to KVO 1-3 meters, again depending on electronics and GPS on military channels. Our GLONAS does not give close such accuracy on military channels, and we do not have corrected missiles. As usual, in terms of area and take the projectile power and the number of missiles in a salvo.

[IVZ]

There are no brackets. people who understand them speak about high technologies and no one shuts up their mouths. But this does not mean that the topic of "tractors" and the survival of personnel should be anathema.

[Cottodraton]

One writes 20 meters, the second 3 ... Who is less?

[qQQQ]

Quote: Cottodraton

One writes 20 meters, the second 3 ... Who is less?

I understand the sarcasm, but according to the result of the blow to the bridge in Kherson, just approximately the arrivals fit into a circle of 20 meters in diameter. This is just sniper accuracy for MLRS.

[Alexey Lantukh]

Import substitution is not replacing a bolt, but, for example, an accurate clock in Glonass, which will not work by order, but painstaking research is needed in some research institutes, and from accurate clocks, there is a discrepancy in the accuracy of pointing on Glonass / JIPS in tens of meters. We are also significantly behind in microelectronics and optics.

[frog]

Let's just say that the problem is not only and not so much with import substitution. Although it also delivers. Generally speaking, the problem with everything))
Even here there was a bunch of materials talking about what we have ..... corresponding citizens in their respective positions to pile a couple of Kamaz trucks on all these problems. With the same suppliers of kits (even the scant one we can still fit into). But one of the main problems is that it is impossible to "go round" the "Suppliers of the Court of His Imperial Majesty". And it’s not like they can work with their hands, they are already .... suppliers. You can create any engineering marvel. But if you are not .... from the deck, they will put it in the archive. Best case scenario. And again, and here examples of this were given. And how many of them have not been cited and will not be cited .....
Nothing personal, business a la rus and that's it.

[qQQQ]

Quote: frog

With the same suppliers of kits (even the scant one we can still fit into). But one of the main problems is that it is impossible to "go round" the "Suppliers of the Court of His Imperial Majesty". And it’s not like they can work with their hands, they are already .... suppliers. You can create any engineering marvel. But if you are not .... from the deck, they will put it in the archive. Best case scenario. And again, and here examples of this were given. And how many of them have not been cited and will not be cited .....
Nothing personal, business a la rus and that's it.

How right you are, unfortunately.

[frog]

Alas, real, as it is. Against this background, reading some materials here, not to mention the comments .... even unfunny

[tank64rus]

Do you remember that in the days of the USSR there was the following system for adopting a model for service. The General Staff, based on the military doctrine of the country, determined the required range of weapons and military equipment. On the basis of this, the T.T.H. were determined. sample and transferred to the relevant design bureau. Well, etc. Now, based on the experience of the West in the 90s, they decided to do it like they did. Now the company is fully developing the sample and presents it to the military, and they decide to accept it or not. Therefore, you look at the exhibitions of what is not there. You ask the representative why this is not in the troops or there are no funds, or the authorities have not resolved the issue with the military. That's the result.

[rtutaloe]

Nothing like that happens there. More precisely, that's how you described happens in some cases. Otherwise, the American Ministry of Defense always issues a technical assignment for development, then private firms participating in the competition provide projects, then they are allocated money for the construction of prototypes. Then the military look at what happened and adopt what I like best. It has always been so. Read any history of the creation of any combat aircraft, even the B-29 of WWII, even the F-35. The same is true for other types of weapons. Moreover, even foreign firms can participate in the tender. Naturally, these are allies from NATO. So you are absolutely wrong.

[Andy_nsk]

In general, as a former defense designer, I think that the possible problem of the lack of relevant modern models in the troops is either design flaws that prevent the adoption of systems for service (but do not interfere with the developer’s PR), or production difficulties with import substitution in particular.

As the current head of the design bureau, I can assume that the most likely reason for the lack of new equipment in the troops is the lack of an order from the Ministry of Defense, and the lack of an order can be explained either by the fact that the Ministry of Defense is not satisfied with the performance characteristics or the price. The third option, that someone in the Moscow Region is waiting for a rollback, I cannot consider without evidence.

[Negro]

Quote: qqqq

We have such a wagon and a small cart that have no analogues, but the weapons of the 80-90s are fighting.

That's even if you're lucky.

[BastaKarapuzik And]

Quote: qqqq

a full salvo fits into a circle of 20 meters, unfortunately our Hurricanes and Tornadoes give 200 meters

compare GPS-guided missiles with inertial-guided missiles.
they are different classes. Iskander has a spread of 5-7 meters.

[Romario_Argo]

Hurricanes and Tornadoes give 200 meters

see what kind of ammunition - if clustered against equipment or against infantry
then 200 meters is even excellent (!)

[Herman 4223]

Why are you lying?
You are comparing adjustable ammo with regular ammo.
Tornado-S also has adjustable ammunition.

[Romario_Argo]

the question is what do you mean by corrective ammunition (?)
2 replies
1. guided missile itself 122-mm Threat-1M MLRS Tornado-G
2. fuse tip with optical sensor and thruster petals
Economy option for converting conventional missiles into guided ones
without any GLONASS, only for targets illuminated by our UAVs by optical stations GOES-4 or GOES-540
2-wave laser does not care about clouds, clouds, fogs
without refusal - cheap - mass alternative

[Herman 4223]

The Tornado-S missile corrects the flight according to GLONASS, the Tornado-G does not have corrective missiles, but there is ammunition with a detachable and self-aiming cumulative warhead.

[ZeeD]

What's the difference, 20 meters to lay the package or 200 meters? One hell, everything on these 200 meters will turn into slag from a complete package. More dispersion (in the range outlined) is good in this case. But if you launch one or two missiles, then yes, 20 meters is good.

[Herman 4223]

It's just an incorrect comparison, that's all. For Hymers, there are also old unguided ammunition, their dispersion is almost better. Corrected missiles fall into the 20m circle, there are also such missiles for Tornado-S, and the accuracy, if worse, is not much.

[Puzoter]

What kind of regret is there? These are systems of different generations as they can be compared. Combines only the possibility of salvo launch. More modern versions of hurricanes and hailstones, with guided missiles, have similar characteristics.

[Sergei N 58912062]

Quote: IVZ

Immediately striking is the unarmored and not mine-resistant crew cabin, in contrast to the "chimera".

[maiman61]

Well, what can I say? The experience of combat operations will strengthen our troops many times over. I am sure that Shoigu will do everything to eliminate the shortcomings.

[S-Semenov]

In .. And the bots got here

[maiman61]

Is there an open day in the mental hospital?

[frog]

You know better. Or do you need doors unnecessarily, I remember, Shurik catapulted ....

[Cottodraton]

They never left here.

[prorab_ak]

So there are still relatively few of them in this thread. They have all the honey in the news section)))

[qQQQ]

Quote: maiman61

I am sure that Shoigu will do everything to eliminate the shortcomings.

Blessed are the believers.

[maiman61]

Forgot what army was before Shoigu? And now it will be even better!

[spirit]

Forgotten that under bad Serdyukov, the budget of the Moscow Region was several times less than under Shoigu?)
And yes! there really wasn’t such a master of PR on anything. But as it came to the War, the chief PR man didn’t become very talkative

[qQQQ]

Quote: spirit

Forgotten that under bad Serdyukov, the budget of the Moscow Region was several times less than under Shoigu?)

And they also forgot that all modern developments that fly and shoot were laid down under Serdyukov, as well as MTR. Under the current minister, I cannot name a single novelty that would have been launched under him and brought to delivery to the troops in commercial quantities.

[maiman61]

And under the current minister, you Bandera will be disposed of at an accelerated pace!

[qQQQ]

Quote: maiman61

And under the current minister, you Bandera will be disposed of at an accelerated pace!

If I don’t like the current MO, then this does not mean that I am from Ukraine. And they dispose of them, again in my opinion, not thanks to him, but in spite of him. How can a person who has not served a day understand military affairs? PR is what he excels at.

[rumpeljschtizhen]

Enough already PR .. the one who did nothing but window dressing. Vaughn and now conducts biathlons. He is not competent. This is without a mat if

[AdAstra]

Everything is correct you write about biathlons, everything is correct.

[rtutaloe]

Under the current minister, the Banderites are actively bombing the Belgorod and Kursk regions, attacking the headquarters of the fleet of the Ministry of Defense in the Crimea. And at the expense of recycling, so it goes in both directions, although it was supposed to go in one direction. You're so enthusiastic because you sit quietly with popcorn by the TV, a thousand kilometers from the front line. And you would go, for example, to Makiivka, and go to the market there on the market day. The number of wounded military mobs with crutches and no arms would impress you. You can still walk around the courtyards of the sleeping areas in the evening to watch. The picture is slightly different from the one shown on TV. And the picture that is in real life is the result of the inaction of your Plywood Marshal, for whom you drown. Or you can go to the cemetery. Or you can just ride public transport, watch widows in black headscarves. These widows are an indicator of the strength of your army, "packs" and the literacy of the administration. Like men without arms and legs. So can you just stop talking nonsense amid unjustified losses? A country that is allegedly ready for war even with the whole of NATO cannot provide an adequate level of losses in a war with some Ukraine. By the way, as you know, small Azerbaijan can provide itself with an acceptable level of losses in the struggle for its interests. As, however, and Israel, is not it?

[Cb master]

Oo! Serdyukov has already become the savior of the army? And how many tantrums were there when they gave him a medal

[ZeeD]

Didn't you know that under Serdyukov there was a global collapse and the collapse of the production and repair base of the RF Ministry of Defense in order to enrich? Everything was optimized right and left, and then merged, bankrupted and plundered. When they threw him off and began to check how enterprises went bankrupt - such a boil went on ... He did not saw, he was precisely destroying the defense industry, in fact.
And Shoigu is competent enough not to broadcast about what he personally is not competent in, but to bring the Konashenkovs and Co. to such.

[Vovavvs]

This is the one who ordered the deployment of ships with troops going to the Crimea ...

[aslanxnumx]

Yeah, he’ll do it, increase the staff of employees with general epaulettes

[carstorm 11]

Why take heights? Why is it bad to use precision-guided munitions on old platforms as it is done now?

They have been found for a month, if not more, then in Nikolaev, then in the Dnipropetrovsk region.
120 km range.

[Cb master]

Do they also find such shells on playgrounds in Lviv?

[carstorm 11]

These are heads from high-precision tornadoes. What does Lviv have to do with it?

[Cb master]

Should I take your word for it? Or do you seriously think that idiots have gathered here?

[Owl]

The mobility of the installation and the security of the personnel are also important, but the accuracy of hitting the target is also very important. "Chimera" was able to hit the bridge so that it was necessary to build a pontoon bridge nearby, which means that in addition to ammunition with inertial guidance, ammunition is needed with flight path correction according to the data of the navigation satellite system (Glonas).

[KCA]

9M542 for "Smerch" and "Tornado-S"

[vdv_555]

they turned the bridge into cheese, but cars still drive around it, avoiding holes)

[Lech from Android.]

Where is the droushka?
An interesting analysis ...

[Enoch]

Russian response to HIMARS: Kama and Uragan-1M systems
All the above systems are good. And long-range, and self-aiming, and fast reloading, only there are no “Kama” in the troops at all, and “Hurricane-1M” is found in single copies.

Dashing trouble is the beginning, the main answer is)

[d4rkmesa]

"Kama", consider, is no longer at all. This is a prototype, which they already want to dismantle (KAMAZ-sheep realized that it was better to find a different use for the chassis and won the trial with the MOH).

[bayard]

Quote: Enoch

the main answer is)

The main thing is that they are not in the troops. Although finished samples have been presented by industry for a long time.
BUT THEY DID NOT INTEREST ANYONE.
And even more importantly, they were not preparing for a war of this nature and such (medium-high) intensity on land theaters. They did not have mobilization plans in case of SUCH a war.
The lessons of history have not been learned - the lessons of the Higher School of Economics were taught.

[Enoch]

They say everything is going according to plan.

[bayard]

Egor Letov sang well about it.
In the meantime, explosions are thundering all over Donetsk - mine clearance is underway from the "night Petals". At night, several districts of Donetsk were sown with such, in our yard only 20 pieces were collected and are now being torn in holes in the field.
Everything goes according to plan .

[Mikhail Maslov]

All this is good, but alas, the last century. Especially in terms of multi-caliber and ammunition. I do not agree with the author "copying Hamers", i.e. 6 barrels based on "Kamaz" is nothing and this is confirmed by the war. And here is the translation " Hurricane", the new chassis had to be done yesterday.

[Andrey Moskvin]

And what, at the change of centuries, it is supposed to radically change the "physical principles" of weapons? It seemed to me the opposite, it is necessary to maximize the saturation of the MLRS army.

[qQQQ]

Quote: Mikhail Maslov

But the transfer of "Hurricane" to the new chassis had to be done yesterday.

Yes, the chassis is secondary, than spending money on a non-priority task, it is better to increase the number of WTO for this complex, reduce the KVO and this will be enough. The whole point of the Chimera is precisely in high-precision missiles, and even if you bring it on a cart, the value of this will not greatly decrease.

[Mikhail Maslov]

Chassis second? cockpit and even a package, instant data entry, ammunition accuracy and range, a minimum calculation, etc. And all this is the saturation of the MLRS not only in quantity, but also in the quality of the salvo of one installation itself.

[rtutaloe]

Chassis secondary? )) Oh well. I propose to simplify the production of tanks. Load the tower from the tank onto a cart with a horse. The main thing is that it will be much cheaper, which cannot but please the Moscow Region. And the chassis is secondary.

Do you have any idea what loads the chassis carries during a volley of MLRS Hurricane or Tornado? I assure you, on a trailer to a Zhiguli, you will not load such a thing. Any machine is a complex of aggregates calculated in detail. And there is no secondary. Your engine will become or the gearbox will fly out and you will not go to any combat mission with your ultra-long high-precision missiles. Understand?

[Sergei N 58912062]

Quote: Mikhail Maslov

All this is good, but alas, the last century. Especially in terms of multi-caliber and ammunition. I do not agree with the author "copying Hamers", i.e. 6 barrels based on "Kamaz" is nothing and this is confirmed by the war. And here is the translation " Hurricane", the new chassis had to be done yesterday.

[Dilettante grandfather]

All the above systems are good. And long-range, and self-aiming, and fast reloading, only there are no Kama in the troops at all, but Uragan-1M found in single copies.

All the latest technology is present in the NWO zone in single copies. Perhaps this is correct: there is less risk of losing a sample. At the same time, tests are being carried out in combat conditions. The only thing I can’t understand is the lack of information about the presence of a T-14 tank in the NVO zone. Why not test Armata?

[Andrey Moskvin]

The Sumerians will throw the whole army in order to at least scratch it and declare victory.

[S-Semenov]

Well, since the age of 14 we have declared her a victory ..
So before fantasizing about the Sumerians, it would be better to look for something in your eye

[Andrey Moskvin]

Motes after application in the case will be "picked out". And about the Sumerians, these are not my fantasies, but their tendency.

[Dilettante grandfather]

Is it bad? They throw all their forces at one of our tanks, and while they are trying to scratch it, we reduce these forces to zero. But the question arises: after such a development of events, will it be a victory for them or a nuisance? ..

[qQQQ]

Quote: Grandfather is an amateur

Why not test Armata?

Maybe because it's just a grand drank dough? And the excuse about not needing the massive use of new weapons, is this part of the cover for this drink, right on other samples?

[Dilettante grandfather]

I don't think. The concept was developed a long time ago, even samples were built in the USSR. And in the US, if I'm not mistaken. So it's definitely not a cut. Again, the platform, the chassis with the MTO, is declared precisely as a platform for various types of equipment.

[qQQQ]

Quote: Grandfather is an amateur

I don't think. The concept was developed a long time ago, even samples were built in the USSR. And in the US, if I'm not mistaken

It's not about the concept, but about the production of only prototypes. A blissful picture is created, while huge money is requested, which, hiding behind PR, can be successfully mastered.

[Dilettante grandfather]

And we have not only Armata - we have many samples of the latest military equipment. Without mass production. How many Suns in the Sun? Well, if not one, but, say, three. The Su-57 seems to be being produced, but we have always had order with aviation, air defense and OTR. Terminator out showed. But also - not a regiment of Terminators, but - a sample. And so in everything. I think that all this equipment is being tested in combat. And based on the results, a decision will be made on its production for the RF Armed Forces.

[S-Semenov]

So this speaks of cutting the dough if, in a new way, they begin to develop a concept that was already abandoned in the past as unpromising

[rumpeljschtizhen]

Fully agree. It's like a pre-war t 35 (only then it was made for parades) and this one will not go further than them

[rtutaloe]

Correctly. It must be kept in a safe under a glass cover. Expensive models of weapons were not made for that, in order to waste them in battle. Let someone over there need to fight pickets from the enemy fence and break them out and fight with them. Cheap and cheerful. And who did not cope, he is not a man.

[Ross xnumx]

Russian response to HIMARS: Kama and Uragan-1M systems

Crappy answer. For a weak three. Do you know why? Yes, because the CHIMERA is capable of destroying both the Kama and the Hurricane-1M, but those cannot ...
Here is the ammo for HIMARS (excerpt):

ATACMS Block I - Tactical missile with a cluster warhead for 950 combat elements, a range of up to 165 km and an inertial control system;
ATACMS Block IA - a tactical missile with a cluster warhead for 300 combat elements and an inertial control system (CS) equipped with a GPS receiver, a vertical final section of the trajectory and a firing range of up to 300 km;
ATACMS Block IA Unitary - a tactical missile with a high-explosive warhead (warhead) weighing 500 pounds (226,8 kg), an inertial control system (CS) equipped with a GPS receiver and a firing range of up to 270 km;
ATACMS Block II - a tactical missile with a cluster warhead for 13 BAT self-aiming combat elements and a firing range of up to 140 km;
ATACMS Block IIA - a tactical missile with a cluster warhead for 6 BAT self-aiming combat elements (improved design) and a firing range of up to 220 km.
LRPF
PrSM (Precision Strike Missile) - a promising tactical missile with a range of 60 to 499+ kilometers

The created launcher HIMARS is universal. It can shoot at 45 km, and at 140, and at 220 ... Whatever they bring up, it will shoot. And it shoots with enviable accuracy.
What can Chemezov's department (or anyone else?) oppose to this?
Here is an example: “Coalition-SV”, according to the declared data, can shoot at:

SAU 2S35 "Coalition-SV" in comparison with "Mstoy-S" has a significantly increased maximum range (80 km vs. 29 km) and a 1,5 times higher rate of fire.

It is clear that hammering nails with a microscope is possible, but not cost-effective, but it is the 2S35 "Coalition-SV" self-propelled guns that is our answer to Chamberlain with his "777" ... However, its widespread use in Ukraine is imperceptible.

[vvvjak]

Quote: ROSS 42

rogue answer. For a weak three. Do you know why? Yes, because the CHIMERA is capable of destroying both the Kama and the Hurricane-1M, but those cannot ...
Here is the ammo for HIMARS (excerpt):

The article is about MLRS, but what you listed in the excerpt is OTRK and you need to compare them with Iskander or Tochka-U, and not with Coalition.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: vvvjak

The article is about MLRS, but what you listed in the excerpt is OTRK and you need to compare them with Iskander or Tochka-U, and not with Coalition.

I understood the meaning of the article well.
Maybe I didn't understand something, but:

For MLRS and HIMARS there are two families of ammunition:

I realized that on HIMARS you can “charge” a container with six b / n type MFOM:

Ammunition MFOM (eng. MLRS Family of Munitions - a family of MLRS ammunition)

or per piece AFOM:

The AFOM (Army TACMS Family of Munitions) ammunition family includes the following types of ATACMS missiles:

This:

Weight, kg 11 000 kg
Speed, km/h 85
Power reserve, km 480
Main armament 6 MLRS missiles or 1 ATACMS tactical missile
Length, mm
7000 mm
Width, mm 2400 mm
Height, mm 3200 mm
Crew (calculation), pers. 3 (operator, driver, crew commander)
Caliber, mm 227 mm
Rate of fire
shots / min 1, 2, 3, all 6
Sighting range, m from 2 km to 300 km
Maximum
range, m 300 km for
MGM-140 ATACMS
500 km for PrSM (from 2023)

American chatter or reality?
Therefore, your claims for comparison are groundless. There is no ammunition for "Kama" and "Hurricane-1M" that can hit the CHIMERA. And the Chimera has it.
As for the "Coalition-SV", this howitzer can be called a worthy answer to all howitzers supplied to Ukraine, including "777"

American field towed howitzer caliber 155 millimeters. Manufactured by BAE Systems.

the firing range of which is 30-40 km (depending on the type of projectile).
*****

Quote: ROSS 42

but it is the self-propelled guns 2S35 "Coalition-SV" - our reply to Chamberlain with his "777"...However, its widespread use in Ukraine is imperceptible.

Where is the comparison with MLRS?
DID YOU EXPLAIN?

[vvvjak]

In the Criminal Procedure Code Mk 41, you can load missiles (including missile defense missiles), PLUR, KR, and how can it be compared with the S-400, Caliber, A-135 Amur? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM ABOUT?

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: vvvjak

In the Criminal Procedure Code Mk 41, you can load missiles (including missile defense missiles), PLUR, KR, and how can it be compared with the S-400, Caliber, A-135 Amur? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM ABOUT?

What is not clear here ... One loves watermelon, the other - pork cartilage. You decided to "slay" me with the knowledge of military abbreviations? Let me put it simply:

I compared the effectiveness of what has the name MLRS. I hasten to take my leave and consider our further conversation a waste of time.

[vvvjak]

You compared the "chimera" in the OTRK version with the RF MLRS, these are different types of weapons. By your analogy, if the Mk 41 universal launcher (can be used in the version of the anti-aircraft missile system) has ammunition capable of destroying the S 400 (for example, the Tomahawk), and the S 400 is not capable of destroying the Mk 41 (2500 km, versus 400 km), then things are bad - The 400 is full of crap, right? I am trying to explain to you that you need to compare comparable weapons and I dare to assure you that specialized types of weapons will be much more effective than universal ones.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: vvvjak

I try to explain to you, what do you need

Me too:

 Show / Hide text

[Alexey RA]

Quote: vvvjak

The article is about MLRS, but what you listed in the excerpt is OTRK and you need to compare them with Iskander or Tochka-U, and not with Coalition.

So that's the problem, that the American MLRS are at the same time launchers for OTR. And we have heavy MLRS - separately, and OTRK - separately. If we compare complexes, then we need to compare them for all performance characteristics, and not choose only those that are convenient for us. Otherwise it's some peremoga it will turn out.
By the way, our opponent regularly works with full GLMRS packages - RS with satellite correction. And how are we with this?

[vvvjak]

Quote: Alexey RA

If we compare complexes, then we need to compare them for all performance characteristics, and not choose only those that are convenient for us.

But, you see, it is not very correct to compare the "chimera" in the OTRK version with the MLRS - these are different weapons. Why then not compare the affected areas, and not the range?

Quote: Alexey RA

By the way, our opponent regularly works with full GLMRS packages - RS with satellite correction. And how are we with this?

"Tornado S", "Tornado G"

[Alexey RA]

Quote: vvvjak

But, you see, it is not very correct to compare the "chimera" in the OTRK version with the MLRS - these are different weapons.

By class, yes. But on the technical side, this is the same installation, capable of spitting either six RS per 90 km, or one TR per 300 km.
And this is a big problem, because in this case it is almost impossible to distinguish between MLRS and OTRK - both in technology and in OShS. It's one thing when there are separate readns with specialized MLRS and separate rbr with specialized OTRKs that differ from them. And another thing - when any MLRS can at any moment upset the enemy with a tactical missile for 300 km.

[vvvjak]

Quote: Alexey RA

And this is a big problem, because in this case it is almost impossible to distinguish between MLRS and OTRK

The big problem is that it is generally difficult to distinguish it even from a civilian truck, and there is no difference in destroying the discovered MLRS or OTRK.

Quote: Alexey RA

And another thing - when any MLRS can at any moment upset the enemy with a tactical missile for 300 km.

It's like a shooting knife - a so-so knife and a very bad pistol, but under certain conditions it can be very useful.

[Negro]

Quote: vvvjak

It's like a shooting knife - so-so knife and a very bad gun

What is the analogy?

[hagen]

Quote: ROSS 42

What can Chemezov's department (or anyone else?) oppose to this?

Iskander with 9M723 missiles. Elementary.

[Negro]

Yeah. Weapons of army subordination against weapons of divisional subordination. Therein lies the problem.

[hagen]

Quote: Negro

Yeah. Weapons of army subordination versus weapons of divisional subordination

Subordination is a purely organizational thing. And the comparable technical characteristics of two clearly operational weapons are discussed.

[Negro]

Quote: Hagen

the comparable technical characteristics of two clearly operational weapons are discussed.

The weapons of the army missile brigade are discussed, a complex of 6 types of vehicles, a launcher of 40+ tons in weight, and weapons on the chassis of the American KAMAZ, which are regularly located in any division and can be attached to an infantry / tank brigade. Msta with Malka, roughly speaking.

[hagen]

Quote: Negro

The weapons of the army missile brigade are being discussed, a complex of 6 types of vehicles, a launcher of 40+ tons in weight, and weapons on the chassis of the American KAMAZ

A missile with a range of 270-300 km is being discussed. This is an operational area. Not quite brigade scale. Therefore, I brought a missile with a range of up to 500 km.

[Sergei N 58912062]

"Bad answer. For a weak C grade."
The whole point is that HIMARS is a universal launcher. And Kama and Hurricane - 1M in its purest form MLRS. Only the first is a cheaper, lighter and more mobile version of the Tornado-S. And the second is the replacement of the obsolete MLRS Uragan and the already aging MLRS Smerch.
And we have our own answer to ATACMS missiles - OTRK ISKANDER.
At us initially there is a division of systems. And the task of creating a universal launcher was not. But I am sure that if the task is set to create a universal launcher, then this is quite within the power of the Russian military-industrial complex.

[km-21]

In the article, the modernized Russian MLRS are positioned as a response to the Hymers. In fact, this is not true at all. Hymers are not good for multi-caliber and not even high mobility. Their feature is high accuracy. To achieve it, guided missiles and an operational reconnaissance and target designation system are needed.

Russia can solve the issue of guided missiles, although this is not easy. But with intelligence and target designation it’s really bad. This requires a rich satellite constellation that monitors the surface and communicates with ground communication points in real time.

The Russian satellite constellation solves these problems much weaker than the American one. For this reason, Russia will not be able to provide high-precision firing of its MLRS, no matter how long-range and mobile the launchers have.

Alas, at this level of confrontation, our MLRS are losing to NATO. Therefore, if the Americans want to increase the scale of deliveries of Hymers to Ukraine, Russia will have to respond asymmetrically.

[Andrey Moskvin]

UAV - we hope for Iran. With satellite constellation - probably, the DPRK will help.

[garri-lin]

[DenVB]

Quote: km-21

The Russian satellite constellation solves these problems much weaker than the American one.

But we launch actresses into space. How do you like that, Elon Musk?

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: km-21

In the article, the modernized Russian MLRS are positioned as a response to the Hymers

You know, I really liked your answer. Simply and intelligibly, with knowledge of the matter. And with intelligence and target designation, you hit the bull's-eye.
I am glad that such pundits visit the site, and not half-educated people who smoked a primer in the first grade and think that broken Russian is a trick ...

[hagen]

Quote: km-21

The Russian satellite constellation solves these problems much weaker than the American one. For this reason, Russia will not be able to provide high-precision firing of its MLRS.

Can you prove it with facts? Give an example of how they aimed and did not hit ...

[Nikolaevich I]

1. MLRS 9A53 "Hurricane-1M". Before the special operation, few people remembered this car,
It's a shame, you understand! Why is the author in vain abizhaesh? If the author rarely remembered "Hurricane-1M", then I never forgot about him, and for every opportunity I wrote about him on VO! I am sure that it is the Uragan-1M that has the right to be called the Tornado MLRS, and not the modernized Grad-M and Smerch-M! In addition, it was the Uragan-1M that had every reason to turn from a bicaliber system into a truly multi-caliber one! Up to 1 "barrels" for 50-mm eres, 122 "barrels" for 4-mm RS, 400 "barrels" -2-mm and more ("analogues" of "Iskander"!) can be added to the Uragan-600M system. 5! 5 calibers in one system ... one MLRS! Before the start of the special operation, there was a tendency to gradually abandon the 220 mm caliber in the MLRS, except for TOS! And is it right! Take the same "Hurricane-1M" ... 30 (!) 220-mm Eres! 2,5 times larger than 300mm...! The American 227-mm URSs are not much "larger" than the "Hurricane" ones! But they have a firing range of 60-70 km, and the latest URS is 150 km! Of course, they may object to me that the warhead of the 300-mm RS is "more powerful" than the 220-mm ... but they forget, at the same time, that the introduction of guided (adjustable) rockets into the ammunition load significantly levels this "power"! I am sure that the RF Ministry of Defense is making a mistake by refusing the 220-mm caliber!
Now about "Kama" ... "Kama" may be appropriate, but it's worth introducing "packages" from the Uragan-1M MLRS!
Thus, the VSR would be armed with the Uragan-1M (Tornado) MLRS, as an "analogue" of the M270 MLRS ... and "Kama" ("Cyclone"), as an "analogue" of the M142 HIMARS!

[garri-lin]

Said from the heart. This should have been done 15 years ago. And now they would have a very flexible tool. Multicomponent.

[Dimon-chik-79]

author-->author-->author has to do with it?! We know who to thank for the fact that these weapons are not in the Army

[TreeSmall]

Just where are these analogues of Himars? Bye bye. They are not in the army and in the same quantity, as, for example, in the United States.

For some reason, he considers the number of launch tubes or caliber to be “analogous”.

[Nike]

what is the dispute about? Somewhere. Once they invented it, made prototypes .... (mastered the money). Yes, soldiers need weapons here and now, they are ABSOLUTELY not interested in what will happen when they are killed, they need it NOW! ,where is it? NO! One thump..

[kriten]

The answer can only be their successful destruction, and not demagoguery, which does not save from shelling.

[Evgeny Babakov]

And those and others and for MORE! I can see better from my sofa!

[seziomoff.s]

What was that? Comparison and competition of heavyweights? War is not Dakkar.
The main advantage of the Americans is the range, accuracy and the possibility of satellite guidance.
We, to our shame, do not have such systems yet.

[nik-mazur]

...One of the main advantages of foreign wheeled HIMARS MLRS is high mobility and stealth ... ...to add to this high flight speed, range and accuracy ...

The couple rush about with these Himars like cats with lard.
Any MLRS will become more secretive and mobile if the number of missiles on the installation is halved. And if you leave one launcher, then you can even shoot from a pickup truck, which, by the way, barmaley practiced in the same Syria ..
In general, I didn’t understand about the high flight speed - it seems that even the Americans themselves do not brag about this.
The range of 40-70 km for a caliber of 220 mm, again, is not outstanding.
All that's left is precision. But what for the exceptional accuracy of multiple launch rocket systems, I still can’t understand. In fact, this is the same absurdity as a machine gun with an optical sight, firing single shots. But for Americans, the principle of "one shot - one dead" has been a national fetish since the Revolutionary War. Recently, modularity and versatility have been added to this. The result was a real chimera, which, as you know, is a fire-breathing monster with the head and neck of a lion, the body of a goat and a tail in the form of a snake. So Himars is a hybrid of the MLRS and the operational-tactical complex. And it is completely incomprehensible why we should answer this, in the presence of normal specialized missile systems, both salvo and high-precision.
By the way, the only area where the Khimarovsky combination of parameters makes sense is counter-battery combat. But this is exactly what the Himars do not do for obvious reasons - firstly, you can’t make advertising on this; secondly, it is dangerous, since you will have to act at the battalion level, if not lower. Therefore, expensive, high-tech prodigies shoot at bridges under the cover of several batteries of bespontovye Grads and Hurricanes - there are fewer risks, and dofiga PR.

[Alexey RA]

Quote from: nik-mazur

All that's left is precision. But what for the exceptional accuracy of multiple launch rocket systems, I still can’t understand.

Very simple. As soon as we reduce the number of PCs on launchers, problems immediately arise with the favorite tactics of the reactive people - "come on, Alyoshenka, sprinkle it with chalk".
As a result, it is necessary to compensate for the small number of RS in a salvo with improved hit accuracy for each, since now there are no problems with disposable correction systems. In general, the MLRS and its smaller brother are no longer classic MLRS, but rather belong to the class of launchers of small tactical missiles.

Quote from: nik-mazur

And it is completely incomprehensible why we should answer this, in the presence of normal specialized missile systems, both salvo and high-precision.

And you ask - how much does a "cast iron" 220-mm or 300-mm RS cost. And how many of these NURS are required to hit a typical target, especially at ranges close to the limit. The economy must be economical - even in war.

[nik-mazur]

Quote: Alexey RA

... how much does a "cast iron" 220-mm cost ... ... And how many of these NURS are required to hit a typical target ...

I'm interested: enlighten me, how much does a rocket cost for a Hurricane? And how much does a similar Himars rocket cost? And how many of those and others are needed to hit a typical target, such as a bridge? Especially considering that the Himars missile is not launched on its own, but under the cover of several volleys of the same Hurricanes, because otherwise it will be shot down with the same probability that any other MLRS missiles are shot down - air defense systems somehow do not care about the accuracy of the destroyed objects.
And you can also separately estimate the consumption of ammunition for targets whose exact coordinates cannot be established. MLRS, in fact, are invented for this. Just like machine guns...

[Alexey RA]

Quote from: nik-mazur

I'm interested: enlighten me, how much does a rocket cost for a Hurricane?

In 2005, the usual 9M27F cost 220 thousand rubles, and 9M27K - 244 thousand rubles.
MLRS is generally an expensive pleasure. Even the RS M-13 cost each as a 203-mm shot.

[nik-mazur]

Quote: Alexey RA

... the usual 9M27F cost 220 thousand rubles ...

Let it be 250 tr, which would be easier and rounder. It turns out a complete package - four million or about 67 thousand dollars at today's exchange rate.
Next two questions:
a) How much does a similar Himars rocket cost?
b) Missile consumption to hit one target, such as a bridge?
Then we compare which economy is more economical
By the way, do the Himars have rockets with high-explosive warheads, in general? And then on the Internet only cassettes are mentioned, that is, against infantry and lightly armored vehicles ...

[Negro]

Quote from: nik-mazur

How much does a similar Himars rocket cost?

Not at all, M26 has not been produced for a long time. The M30 controller costs about $100K.

Quote from: nik-mazur

Missile consumption to hit one target, such as a bridge?

And this is tsimes. A hurricane cannot destroy a "bridge type" AT ALL. There will not be a sufficiently large number of hits on one plate - unless, perhaps, a whole echelon of RS is shot.

Quote from: nik-mazur

By the way, do the Himars have rockets with high-explosive warheads, in general?

Yes. Just cassettes have not been produced for quite a long time.

[nik-mazur]

Quote: Negro

M30 controller costs about $100K

Hmm, on the Internet they say that 150 thousand.
In any case, one Himars missile costs as much as 24-36 Hurricane missiles.
Would you like to say that they are just as much more effective? Especially taking into account the fact that Himars' effectiveness is achieved by supporting the same Hurricanes with several volleys for masking and local depletion of air defense. Not to mention the use of a very expensive infrastructure for target designation.
You wanted to discuss economics, didn't you?

Quote: Negro

A hurricane cannot destroy a "bridge type" AT ALL.

Duc, Himars, too, can not cope with the destruction of the bridge. Just because a rocket with a caliber of 227-240 mm, in principle, cannot destroy the bridge - this, in general, is not its goal, even with a CVO of 7 meters, which does not guarantee hitting one in the plate. However, even the destruction of one slab can be considered the destruction of the bridge only in an advertising campaign to promote the product. In reality, even operational-tactical missiles with a mass of warheads, like the whole Himars package, cannot confidently destroy the bridge.

Quote: Negro

Just cassettes have not been produced for quite a long time.

Hmm ... And where are the firewood from? On the Internet they say that almost all missiles with cluster warheads, and high-explosive ones are not even mentioned:

Ammunition MFOM (English MLRS Family of Munitions - a family of MLRS ammunition) includes the following types of missiles:
M26 - unguided rocket with cassette head part (subelements M77)
M26A1 - unguided rocket with cassette warhead (M85 subelements) and increased firing range (ER MLRS) up to 45 km;
M26A2 - unguided rocket with cassette warhead ((cumulative-fragmentation sub-elements M77) and increased firing range (ER MLRS) up to 45 km;
GMLRS M30 (English Guided MLRS - managed MLRS) - 240-mm guided (inertial + GPS) rocket with cassette warhead (M85 subelements) and increased firing range (ER MLRS) up to 70 km[6];
M28 - 227-mm training rocket;
M28A1 - 227-mm training rocket with a reduced firing range;
AT-2 - 227 mm cluster rocket - min.

The nomenclature, by the way, quite clearly indicates the specialization of Himars - the fight against infantry, lightly armored targets and artillery. For warehouses and bridges, the Americans have aircraft with more specialized ammunition.
But ... if the Himars are lowered from the army level to the tactical level and distributed among the battalions, where they belong, then their effectiveness will drop sharply to the baseboard (due to the opposition of developed air defense), and the losses will become completely indecent. Which is completely unacceptable for an expensive high-tech, and most importantly, an American prodigy.

However, a high-precision tactical missile system has the right to exist in order to fill the niche between Iskanders and anti-tank guided missiles (which, as you know, are used not only for tanks). A kind of analogue of aviation missiles in the category from 100 to 500 kg, only ground-based. It is desirable, at a speed of two or three Mach, so that 70 km would fly in a couple of minutes. Just for counter-battery combat or to quickly hit important targets in the near rear, to which artillery no longer reaches, Iskanders are redundant, and aviation will not have time ...

[Negro]

Quote from: nik-mazur

150 thousand.

Not the point

Quote from: nik-mazur

In any case, one Himars missile costs as much as 24-36 Hurricane missiles.
Would you like to say that they are just as much more effective?

They are generally incomparable.

Quote from: nik-mazur

Especially taking into account the fact that Himars' effectiveness is achieved by supporting the same Hurricanes with several volleys for masking and local depletion of air defense.

These are fairy tales from the RF Ministry of Defense and war correspondents.

Quote from: nik-mazur

Not to mention the use of a very expensive infrastructure for target designation.

The infrastructure is on its own, without highmars. Who has it, of course.

Quote from: nik-mazur

You wanted to discuss economics, didn't you?

I AM? No.

Quote from: nik-mazur

Duc, Himars, too, can not cope with the destruction of the bridge.

So far it seems to be doing well. By the way, this is a collective farm, Hymars was not conceived for bridges. For the elves, aviation is engaged in bridges.

Quote from: nik-mazur

In reality, even operational-tactical missiles with a mass of warheads, like the whole Himars package, cannot confidently destroy the bridge.

According to reports from the place "in reality" the bridge is not working. And tactical missiles are also available.

Quote from: nik-mazur

on the Internet they say that almost all missiles with cluster warheads, and high-explosive ones are not even mentioned:

Search better. Cassettes are not produced, now only high-explosive M31s are offered. You can find it in warehouses, but the Germans specially sawed off the opportunity to shoot from their M270s.

Quote from: nik-mazur

fighting infantry, lightly armored targets and artillery.

In the 80s, when it was invented, it was so. Meet GSVG, dear guests.

Quote from: nik-mazur

if the Himars are lowered from the army level to the tactical level and distributed among the battalions, where they belong, then their effectiveness will drop sharply to the plinth (due to the counteraction of developed air defense)

Some kind of crazy proposal to distribute them to where "their effectiveness will drop to the baseboard." If the enemy has battalions reinforced with Hymars (so far even the Americans have not allowed themselves this, these are division-level weapons), then you will not have enough air defense in the world.

Quote from: nik-mazur

However, a high-precision tactical missile system has the right to exist,

Truth? Oh, thanks.

Quote from: nik-mazur

Preferably, at a speed of two or three Mach,

The old Grad pencil accelerates to Mach 2+.

Quote from: nik-mazur

Just for counter-battery combat or to quickly hit important targets in the near rear, to which artillery no longer reaches, Iskanders are redundant, and aviation will not have time ...

On the other hand, you found the strength to repeat the thought of the Americans of the 80s. The Americans had time for aviation everywhere, but interaction between the military branches is one thing, work within the same division is another thing, it is always more convenient.

[nik-mazur]

Quote: Negro

bla bla bla...

You somehow unobtrusively replaced the original interlocutor, but I didn’t catch it, you, in general, what are you arguing with?

[megadeth]

Everything that is new and made in prototypes is urgently sent to the NWO zone, where else you can check ... In Russia, the main problem is the transfer of adopted products to the series ... About the armor, in my opinion, it is bulletproof enough for the cockpit and the container with missiles .. .

[cmax]

Quote: megadeth

Everything that is new and made in prototypes is urgently sent to the NWO zone, where else you can check ... In Russia, the main problem is the transfer of adopted products to the series ... About the armor, in my opinion, it is bulletproof enough for the cockpit and the container with missiles .. .

The main problem of Russia is armament with new models, that one official decides everything. The developers approached him with understanding, they can approve further work. Others didn’t like it for some reason, and as a result, excellent weapons are not approved, and that’s it. It is necessary to take away this right from officials, to decide. There should be an independent organization, and which does not look at the ranks and positions of the Ministry of Defense's wishes, but looks at the necessity, the need for this type of weapon for the armed forces. Here, Mr. Borisov did not see any strike drones, and now there is an operation, and there are only a few strike drones. And so it is in everything

[frog]

There should be an independent organization, and which does not look at the ranks and positions of the Ministry of Defense's wishes, but looks at the necessity, the need for this type of weapon for the armed forces.

Yes, you are joking, as I see it .... An independent ... organization .... we have .... now ..... Yes, in the same Union, in places, the devil knows what was happening with this case
Not to mention that, but where to get these nerds in the required quantity? And how will you determine their .... qualifications?

[cmax]

I do not know. A joke, not a joke, but something needs to be done. The striped ones are strong because there is a department of advanced technologies. They make recommendations to the Department of Defense, Congress. Yes, sometimes it turns out wrong, but they print money, they are not afraid. For example, the latter are small, autonomous, uncrewed submarine killers. Several hundred are planned. Much cheaper than mostodonts - submarines. They will patrol, and given that the striped submarines have better acoustics for detecting submarines, then all our submarine crews (each worth billions of dollars) automatically become suicide bombers. Unless they stand in their bases.

[frog]

Oh dear.....
What are you speaking about? What examples?
We can’t do things we mastered back in the union of the deceased .... And with the existing ..... braces, sorry, what kind of commission you don’t create .... We have so many of them that horror takes. So what? At least one of his creation justified? In terms of what (de jure) it was created for? From the point of view of .... commission agents, they, of course, are very necessary

[d4rkmesa]

When I read an interview with the director of "Splav", I had a double feeling, either he really was in the last century, or it slipped between the lines that the Defense Ministry was only interested in endless upgrades ("Tornado-G" - as you call the ship, as they say. ..). However, we have corrected projectiles, it's another matter that they lag behind world developments significantly. On the other hand, the zoo with various MLRS options that could be "fit" into one is incomprehensible.
There is no point in a bicaliber MLRS like the Uragan-1M - we do not have modern high-precision 220-mm shells, and this is very vain. The Hurricane chip has always been in cluster munitions, but now we need monoblock ones with all sorts of interesting fuses in order to destroy fortified areas and various protected objects. Well, no one already has densely advancing divisions that could be conveniently shot "over the area" (an erroneous concept that was criticized in VO). The same applies to cassette "Tornados".
Ideally, of course, it is worth developing your own system a la Himars. Those. protected truck as a chassis, with at least bullet protection, up to 20 tons of gross weight. However, if you hurry, you can take the protected "Ural", it is (I hope the engine is not imported there). In short, then the easiest way is to copy the scheme of the Israeli Lynx. There are a lot of different chassis, 2 packages with rockets (there are even "Grads" for training). We have 122-mm shells, we can make a package (as in the same "Agriculture", the fact of the existence of which is not clear in a separate form). The configuration, in addition to 122 mm, may include: mines for setting ala "Agriculture", 220 mm reakt. shells from Solntsepeka, promising 220/300-mm precision-guided munitions (which do not have to be forced to rotate - in fact, use a modern approach), ground-based Kh-35 cruise missiles, Hermes.
But, there are doubts that ours will still take it seriously. "Splav" is trying to shove its "Cyclone" (a sort of new "Tornado"), the Ministry of Defense is interested in modernizing all the junk at once ... So, to my couch regret, one can only envy the Israelis, the Chinese and even the North Koreans, who did not stop improving their systems .

[Alexey RA]

Quote: d4rkmesa

as in the same "Agriculture", the fact of the existence of which is not clear in a separate form

Everything is clear - the Inzhvoys also want their share of the budget for their toys. The situation is exactly the same with the RKhBZ, which, instead of introducing their new long-range 220-mm RS into the BC of the serial "Hurricane", opened a new topic and ordered unique and unparalleled in the world TOS-2.

[Herman 4223]

I think it’s not entirely correct to call Chimers RZSO, in fact it is a bicaliber OTRK. All modern missiles of this complex have high accuracy and range.
I think it’s impossible to compare Chimers with the systems that are presented in the article, because these are ordinary rocket launchers, with old unguided projectiles.
To say that we have no analogue is also not entirely true. It's just done a little differently. We have an analogue of atamak missiles, they are used by the Iskander complex, and there is an analogue of corrected 227-caliber missiles, they are used in the tornado-s complex.

[demiurg]

The idea and implementation are good. no doubt.
But no one now massive production will not expand. And they will do it right. In the Russian Federation, there is an abundance of launchers Tornadoes, and Hurricanes (as well as ammunition for them) are generally like a fool's shag.
An absolutely correct decision was made to upgrade what is to Tornado-S.
Perhaps over time we will switch to the bicaliber scheme, although from my sofa it seems that the idea does not make sense.

[Gippo]

The main difference is not in the caliber and reloading system, but in the accuracy of the strike.
Chimera goes by GPS, which provides a QUO of no more than 5 m.
Hurricane and Smerch are classic MLRS with unguided rockets. Although there were developments.
Hope they fix it. And not these lightweight ones, they will not solve the problem.
We need new ammo.
Then we'll talk about the Russian analogue of the Chimeras.
Iskanders are a completely different song, Chimeras have LRPF missiles with a range of 500+ for this case.
They were not officially delivered to Ukraine, but who knows.

[Dimon-chik-79]

All the above systems are good. And long-range, and self-aiming, and fast reloading, only there are no “Kama” in the troops at all, and “Hurricane-1M” is found in single copies.

That's probably all!!! Consider no! "Thanks" to Borisov and the witty Medvedev! All (most) vital military-industrial complex novelties, only at parades and at exhibitions! "We drove" to Ukraine on the equipment of the 60s-70s! Hurricane at 135 ZiL, this is the bottom, as is the use of BMP 2 BMD 2 BTR-80, etc., which fought back in Afghanistan ...
Armata Kurganets Boomerang,...Kama...Au

[Igor Valimukhametov]

This is not for the army. It’s better for their sheikhs to drive their delyags in order to put them off for old age.

[TreeSmall]

Quote: Yevgeny Fedorov

Three-axle 300 hp FMTV truck with launcher folded not much different from a conventional military vehicle. This allows HIMARS to remain undetected for aerial reconnaissance.

Yes Yes.
This applies especially to Ukraine.
There they travel exclusively FMTV on the roads.

[d4rkmesa]

There are a lot of purely civilian trucks roaming around, which is exactly what Oshkosh looks like.

[TreeSmall]

There are a lot of purely civilian trucks roaming around,

What kind of Ukrainian are similar to this?

I’ll remind you:
1. The radar and IR signature of this is known, recorded and should be in the memory of any means of destruction
2. Delivered, they traveled more than 1000 km strictly in one direction: west border - east
3. now they are making specific routes: the places of deployment are the front line, from the splash no more than 50 km
And in to the rest that is in this zone: supply. The essence of the goal.
There were no privateers there.

[d4rkmesa]

"What kind of Ukrainian ones are like this?"
Yes, any Hyundai onboard. ) The top view should be viewed, not "full face". And through the viewfinder of Orlan, in general, everything is dimly visible. As for private traders, but nothing that Kharkov and other large cities are located 100 km from the front line? There are more than enough privateers there.
About ROM - amused.

[TreeSmall]

Top view should be viewed, not "full face"

So show me? Let's compare together?
And let's have some fun!
So I see at the Zenith, an eagle hangs over each grunt
The main gimbal of the GSP eagle with Controp D-STAMP

CMOS High Resolution Color 1280x720
720p: 5.5° to 50° horizontal FOV with Connuous Zoom Lens x10
Provides detection of moving targets during the day over an area of ​​1 km2, from an operating altitude of 1,500-3,000 feet (below cloud level). It is possible to work from great heights and cover large areas. It has a processor for processing and compressing data before transferring it to the ground. The operator sees a screen divided into 3 parts: a map of the area with the position of the UAV and targets; continuous video; an enlarged area of ​​the picture that is of interest to the operator.
Guaranteed auto identification height: 1500 m
Or a photo of Phase One IXU 150,
from a height of 2,7 km, the shooting resolution is 8 cm by 1 pixel.

With H = 1500 m at a distance of 3000 m, the camera “looks” not from above, but just “full face”, at an angle of less than 30 degrees
Kharkiv

About ROM - amused.

Glad you had fun.
It looks something like this (but everything is in the figure of course)

When forming a combat mission and developing a decision to engage in the brains of a means of destruction with a radar seeker, a typical bath of targets that are expected there is laid.
In advanced ik gsn is the same

[iouris]

The main thing is not an armored cabin, but the ability to hit the "point" at a distance of (at least) 90 ... 350 km.
For this, it was NEEDED to invest capital and develop the production of micromechanical systems, processors, data storage and transmission devices, reconnaissance and navigation satellites, data processing devices ...
All this was promised at different times to be given to the country and the world by Rogozin, Borisov, (I'm not afraid of this word) chyubais ("we have a lot of money"). But no. (But there is no trial for them. More precisely, there is, but he is the Last Judgment, and not Basmanny).
All hope is for the infantry (but it is also not enough - we still educate our youth poorly, understanders).

[Popenko]

The best answer is a round-the-clock UAV with direct communication with artillery or a kamikaze drone to detect HiMars positions. NOW! And not when the bureaucratic gears turn.

[Igorash]

These are probably those 70% of the new equipment that Shoigu reported not so long ago ... They just cut the loot and ... forgot .... And judging by Ukraine, there is equipment, the place of which has long been on an honorary pension ....

[Vincent price]

Now the defenders of the highest cockade will run. And the truth is that Serdyukov did more for the army than a cockade. Only, in contrast to the cockade, he did not make friends with the supreme and therefore they caught on theft

[ratcatcher]

As stated, 60 Tornado-S and 10 Hurricane 1M were delivered to the troops. Together, this is more than Himars in Ukraine. Are they used in SVO? Tornado-S wrote to the front received. But so far, there have been no open sources about the shooting, so that it can be compared in terms of shooting accuracy with Himars. And a single accurate projectile can also launch an ordinary Tornado. With Himars, the trick is that a salvo of 6 missiles falls with little dispersion. And the second one can be put there. Sniper MLRS in fact.
Perhaps the reason is precisely what many wrote about - the weakness of the Russian satellite constellation.
The second question that arises here is counteraction to the enemy's satellite constellation. Our Ministry of Defense knew perfectly well that the Yankees are all tied to satellites. Where are the countermeasures? Alas.

[d4rkmesa]

So far, only cassette spare parts have been found from 9M544. How accurate are they? There was no photo with exactly the objects hit, so it's hard to say. Subjectively, at the level of "old" conditionally adjusted ammunition. I don’t understand the “love” of our Defense Ministry for cluster munitions, manpower wants to live more than expected.

[Igor Valimukhametov]

Here, whatever you touch, we have everything. Only for some reason it’s not accepted for service. And what the hell, one asks, the generals were silent before? There is a deputy for armaments, why didn’t he prepare the army for the SVO? Why are they ordering warships without air defense? Where to put them now?

[Blackgrifon]

All the above systems are good. And long-range, and self-aiming, and fast reloading, only there are no “Kama” in the troops at all, and “Hurricane-1M” is found in single copies.

But it's not analogous.

[runway-1]

If we add to this the high flight speed, range and accuracy, then each HIMARS is a rather dangerous, albeit overestimated, enemy. Russian anti-aircraft gunners have already learned how to hit missiles, despite the low effective target dispersion area - no more than 0,1.

Why an overrated enemy?! With a very small number, they managed to cause very serious damage.

All the above systems are good. And long-range, and self-aiming, and fast reloading, only there are no “Kama” in the troops at all, and “Hurricane-1M” is found in single copies.

Well, here's the main idea, which very clearly demonstrates one of the aspects of the rearmament of the army ...

[acetophenone]

So why tell these stories? Why do I need to know that there someone showed someone back in 2009?
Because of the forest, because of the mountains, the man showed "Axe"! And not just showed, but ...
What was relevant then is now obsolete! Thirteen years have passed! Money well spent! About ... in short, lost by naval means! (By the way, not to get up twice, everyone - happy holidays!) It seems that they are building an aircraft carrier. Or the Large Hadron Collider. Not a rocket truck.

[Dmitry K]

The Chinese have such a rocket flying 350 km.

[Krilion]

and now let's compare the sizes ... enemy himars are smaller in size and clearly win in terms of speed and controllability, and the missile flies much further .. and it’s generally not clear why Russian high-precision weapons are still in such an embryonic state ... strategists from the General Staff are used to echelons to spend BC to the MLRS hitting the white light like a pretty penny (maybe it will hit someone) ... there are so many failures in weapons (high-precision MLRS, shock and reconnaissance UAVs, etc.) that the hand reaches for the revolver ... I want to know last names and see the faces of people who failed these directions .. although there is nothing to guess .. one of them is the Minister of Defense, who has not served a day and doesn’t understand shit at all ...

[Vincent price]

And wonderful and modern and effective, but again on paper, and in Ukraine the old-fashioned hailstones.

[Dedok]

Everything is great, but where is it?
in the Donbass - this is not the case, but then what is the article about? - "no matter how much you say halva - it will not be sweeter in your mouth"

[rocket757]

Russian response to HIMARS: Kama and Uragan-1M systems

What razosr swore then ???
All serious / militarily significant states have approximately the same, in terms of diversity, weapons !!! The differences are minor and have, most often, their own specifics!
It is clear that the most, most, in some types, may have advantages, for one reason or another, but it can be compensated by the opposite side, others, with their own methods, or actions are taken to create weapons of this type / class!
Now there are no those who unequivocally pulled ahead, not even in everything, but at least in many ways and immediately, and this remains unanswered, at least for a long time!

[Proctologist]

In the comments, they definitely noted that the peculiarity of the Himars is in accuracy and operational target designation. Air defense cannot effectively shoot down MLRS missiles, anti-missiles are more expensive, so the hope of fighting off chimeras with air defense alone is rather utopian. Israel succeeds, but at a high cost and against primitive, low-density missiles.

The second feature of chimeras, which is not mentioned in the article, is a visual resemblance to a truck, which makes reconnaissance and target designation difficult. I note that all our developments mentioned in the article, on the contrary, are quite different from the "truck" in appearance - as far as I can judge from the photo.

Third, these are tracked M270. So far, we do not know the specifics of their use, but the very fact of the existence of the same weapons on a different platform suggests that high mobility is only one of the qualities of the MLRS, but apparently not the most critical. And by "mobility" I mean air mobility, not just the ability to quickly leave on the highway.

I still believe that the chimeras were extremely effective tactically. So that their design advantages (accuracy and range) were used to the maximum. It's not a miracle weapon.

[Usher]

Quote: Proctologist

Air defense cannot effectively shoot down MLRS missiles, anti-missiles are more expensive, so the hope of fighting off chimeras with air defense alone is rather utopian

Why is that? Is the Pantsir missile more expensive than the Himras tactical missile? As far as I know, the Himras rocket costs like a downed Boeing. And they are not fired in volleys like our MLRS, in fact they are tactical missiles, like Iskanders or Tochkas.

[Paul Siebert]

Proud of fellow countrymen from Perm!
I hope "Kama" will still go to the troops!
And he will arrange a real "Kama Sutra" for xox soldiers ...

[Zaurbek]

It would be nice to make one BR in the same container and 600mm .... to replace Tochka-U (with the same seeker as on other missiles). And give the opportunity to shoot the same missile from Iskander.

[sashok1951.21]

All this is just an empty phrase. Why are we fighting chimeras in the zone of their combat use? Why do we allow the transfer of this muck and do not destroy it on the borders of Ukraine? What prevents this? Apparently we have no intelligence. Neither space, nor air, nor undercover. But the stock of philanthropy is enormous, especially towards enemies. We protect their transport arteries. That's what we get from NATO.

[Usher]

What about accuracy? Missiles adjustable?

[ivan2022]

Quote: sashok1951.21

But the stock of philanthropy is enormous, especially towards enemies. We protect their transport arteries. That's what we get from NATO.

Personally, I have never noticed any special philanthropy in the vastness of Russia. Maybe because the compatriots themselves "by default" do not consider themselves people?
This is from the category of "secrets of the Russian soul" ..... Everyone who is not lazy for centuries, and they explain everything by "philanthropy" to their enemies.

[Konstantin Balakhonov]

Smiled, two engines on a hurricane .... and each works only on one side

[Sedoy]

what a mess... :)

One of the main advantages of foreign wheeled MLRS HIMARS is high mobility and stealth.

and let's look at the "carts" ... :)
the main thing is weapons - i.e. range and accuracy...
about our range - they say about Tornado-S - they say 120 km, but about accuracy - a big question ...
no one saw her on the SVO, unlike the Hymars - a video on every iron ...
by the way,

American MLRS have no TZM at all

they have a TZM, and with a trailer, moreover, the hatsmars has its own "crane" - it can scatter "blocks along the road", it will charge itself along the way ...
no matter the authors, the balabols alone ...

[insafufa]

It’s a pity that I didn’t join the troops on the basis of KAMAZ, in 2001 I watched the work of a hurricane, a spectacle not for the faint of heart. But now I need the chassis from the old hurricane for a new one. Reservations need at least bulletproof and anti-fragmentation.

[Voenoboz]

It’s not clear the reservation, that is, it’s time to think about it.

[Radical]

Quote: carpenter

But the bridge near Kherson was very damaged, an alarming operational-tactical situation is observed today in the Nikolaev operational direction, where the ground grouping of the Russian Armed Forces (including motorized rifle and tank units, rocket troops and artillery, anti-aircraft missile regiments, as well as RTR / RER and EW units) two days earlier, it was deprived of its former efficiency in terms of logistical potential due to the almost complete disablement of the Antonovsky bridge bed, as well as damage to the railroad bed of the Prydneprovsky railway bridge.

Unfortunately, a night salvo of at least 12 M31A1 GMLRS guided missiles from two HIMARS mobile MLRS with the simultaneous launch of 10-16 "distracting" shells 9M27F / K "Hurricane" was still able to "oversaturate" the target channel of a limited number of S-air defense divisions 300PM2 / 400 and ZRPK "Pantsir-S1", aboutensuring that at least 8 GMLRS shells hit the canvas of the Antonovsky bridge. The deployment in the western environs of Kherson of several divisions of the Buk-M3 self-propelled military air defense systems, which have proven themselves in intercepting GMLRS shells, each of which has 36 target channels, to this day is associated with the threat of being hit by CEASAR and PzH-2000 self-propelled guns, the range of which today it partially covers all the western regions of Kherson.

And even despite the fact that the interception of 155-mm artillery shells with an EPR of about 0,03 sq. m using anti-aircraft missiles 9M317MA complexes "Buk-M3" is possible, it will occur at a distance of 7-12 km from the attacked division, because the 9S36M target designation radars are able to detect such small objects at a distance of no more than 30 km, which is fraught with the arrival of large fragmentation fragments. And this is not to mention the economic counterproductiveness of using high-tech and expensive 9M317MA missiles against hundreds of 155-mm “blank” projectiles.

As a result of what happened, one of the spans of the bridge completely lost the ability to traffic most types of regular transport, not to mention heavy armored vehicles, self-propelled guns, engineering vehicles and launchers of OTRK and MLRS.

The well-established ferry crossing across the Dnieper, although it allows us to supply our Kherson regular group of troops of the Russian Armed Forces, but with a very limited throughput, which is fraught with serious consequences during the upcoming attempt to counteroffensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. This attempt, starting from the observed saturation of the Ukrainian mechanized brigades near Posad-Pokrovsky and Snigirevka with Western artillery, main battle tanks PT-91 Twardy from the Polish Land Forces (equipped with the Polish-Israeli SLA SKO-1M Drawa or more advanced French SLA Savan- 15M), as well as electronic warfare and counter-battery radar AN/TPQ-36/37, may follow in the next 5-10 days.

At the same time, distracting massive rocket and artillery strikes from Ukrainian units may follow both in the Melitopol and Volnakhsky, and in the Donetsk and Lisichansk directions. As for the direct “throw” to Kherson, the key role in it is given to the motorized rifle “backbone”, deployed and reinforced near Snigirevka. Having enlisted massive artillery / counter-battery support from the above-mentioned Western European long-range howitzers and self-propelled guns, this grouping can undertake an advance along the western bank of the meandering bed of the Ingulets River in the southeastern operational direction. In this case, our motorized rifle and artillery units will be forced to counteract the advancing formations from the eastern bank of the Ingulets without the possibility of safely building a pontoon crossing and forcing the river.

And has anyone seen the use of these crossing facilities in the NWO. At one time, their use at the exercises of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation looked spectacular. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52jEvSozwcw
Or these ones:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YajTjJ3f1YY

[Arigin]

Hello everyone, I read the article, comments, I will add my own. There is no Kama and Hurricane -1 (and there won’t be), but there are high-precision shells of the Tornado-S system, so they can take out HIMARS, and the standard Smerchevskaya BM after modernization can also use them. If I'm not mistaken, only the launch equipment changes. Yes, the cabin remains the same, without armor, but the alteration is "penny" (when compared with the manufacture of a new BM), why was this not done in advance? Perhaps the industry did not take it out, or simply there are not enough BMs themselves. It is doubly a shame that the Smerchevsky corrected shells remain unclaimed, in fact, conventional Hurricanes and then OTRK are blown away for the MLRS.

[agond]

I think if the KamAZ-6350 8x8 cabin. make it 2.5 times narrower, that is, only for the driver, then you can probably use a shorter 3-axle chassis in this way to more fully use the dimensions of the car, and in the future it’s nice to create a radio-controlled launcher without a driver, there the cabin will not be needed at all and the question of booking it will fall off by itself.

[Rage66]

For some reason, no one in the comments remembers that the main anger of chimeras is not in armor, but in range.
And this is where we fall behind. They have 70-300, and we have 45-120.
These devices have been in disgrace since the times of the USSR.
Meanwhile, China and North Korea have units with a range of up to 400 km.

[km-21]

The article describes the advantages of launchers that can drive and shoot no worse than the notorious Hymers. But the main advantage of Hymers is not only fast shooting, but also high-precision hits, which are provided not by launchers, but by a projectile control system and an external reconnaissance and target designation system. Therefore, the question of creating an MLRS that competes with Hymers is much deeper than what is written in the article.

[Dimax-nemo]

We chose the cheapest route - Tonado-G and -S. Moreover, for some reason the Hurricanes were left “overboard”. It would be more logical to transfer the brigade rocket artillery to 220 mm, but, apparently, there is nowhere to put the 122 mm rockets.

[Glagol1]

It’s a pity that promising developments are stuck, how they are so lacking now. Experience, the son of difficult mistakes... How relevant this is now!

[Krilion]

look around: absolutely everything is stuck here!!! starting from basic first aid kits and means of communication between soldiers on the battlefield and ending with high-precision systems and UAVs.. it turned out that Russia has practically nothing!!!!! all these decades the Ministry of Defense has been practically engaged in fraud at parades!! People should be shot for such things, starting with the minister...

[Hitriy Zhuk]

What if you screw two 300mm containers under a helicopter?

[Illanatol]

Quote: IVZ

Immediately striking is the unarmored and not mine-resistant crew cabin, in contrast to the "chimera".

Will the chimera's armor withstand a shot from an old RPG-7?
There is no use for this reservation... except that it will protect you from barmaleys with Berdan guns.

[Zaurbek]

Slow, criminally slow.........

[Alexander75]

As usual, it is necessary to first create a basic system: installation + supply means + target designation, reconnaissance, guidance. And only then we can bring it to mind to reduce the price, book it, etc.
And weigh on the scales whether it is better to release more complexes or armor them, etc. The main thing in a big war is economics and mass application.

[ZuekRek]

Personally, in my amateurish opinion (if we do not touch on combat characteristics), the correct direction for adopting experience should be the following: 1. The ability to load with a new cassette without the involvement of loading machines, directly by the crew of the MLRS 2. The cassette should be disposable (what I see in the photo with us it is very similar to reusable execution). As far as I understand, the logic of using himars is that the crew knows in advance the coordinates where the reloading station is located (previously left there) and does not waste time returning to the base where the charging machine is located. This is logistics with separation of supply and use flows, in my opinion, more optimal.

[AVESSALOM]

The next analogue shit, which is not yet available in sufficient quantities. Prepared for war...

[Sergei N 58912062]

Russian answer to HIMARS: Kama and Uragan-1M systems

All the same, "Kama" and "Uragan-1M" are not the answer to HIMARS.
The M142 HIMARS is a versatile launcher. Which with GMLRS missiles serves as a tactical missile system. With missiles, ATACMS serves as an operational-tactical missile system. And with surface-to-air missiles, the AIM-120 AMRAAM can serve as a launcher as part of an anti-aircraft missile system.
And "Kama" and "Uragan-1M" are MLRS, which, having guided ammunition, can serve as a tactical missile system.