Military Review

Demoralizing figures about the Great Patriotic War

153

Every year, on Victory Day, another psychic attack on the people of Russia is timed. And, what is remarkable - the special zeal in it is shown by characters who identify themselves as patriots. Western russophobes nervously smoking in aside!

Losses

Especially, these "patriots" are trying to outdo each other in terms of the losses of the Red Army and among the civilian population; they, for some reason, think that the bigger the loss figures they call, the better. It is better? But for whom is it better? Solzhenitsyn and V. Astafyev are among the “authoritative” sources whose numbers they operate in (both are participants in hostilities and, therefore, are indisputable authorities in this area)

The farther from the times of the Great Patriotic War, the greater the numbers of the total losses of the USSR are called! 20 million ... 28 million ... 37 million ... again 28 million ... Why so much growth? Can every political leader exaggerate losses in order to squeeze a tear of pity from the West? To soften his elites "this is how we suffered for the whole world, and you, nasty, do not accept us into your club of the elect! Are you questioning the legality of our bank accounts ..."?

Demoralizing figures about the Great Patriotic War



Take the chassis number now - 28 of millions, what is it whispering to the subconscious of people hearing it? And she whispers about that, since Germany lost only a little more than 7 million people, and we 28 million then, it means that the Russians are very, very bad warriors, and not only bad, but also stupid, since they allowed themselves to be destroyed. So, Russians should not be afraid! And the Russian person has little thoughts "and in our FIG wins, obtained by such a bloody price!"

Fresh, posthumously, the winner of the Solzhenitsyn Prize V. Astafyev claimed (and now claims through the mouth of others) to kill one German. The Red Army was losing 7-10 people killed. Is it that in order to instill fear of supermen (Germans, sometime French, now Americans)?




And this is possible because the overwhelming majority of information consumers do not have the beginnings of critical thinking, or do not wish to strain themselves to be skeptical about checking the information reported by them (calories, cholesterol have learned to count, but here ...)

Let's look at the available sources of information on this issue:

We first note that people automatically imagine numbers: Germany, the population is 80 million, the USSR is about 200 million (for some reason, a very strange figure - 1937 data of the year gave 162 million); it means that at the disposal of the USSR there were incomparably more human resources and the Germans "drowned in Russian blood" And the brain of the information consumer refuses to summarize the following figures:

Germany - 80 million

Italy - 40 million

Finland -3 million

Hungary...

Slovakia...

Romania...

Croatia...

Bosnia (Muslims) ...

And these are only the formal allies of Germany! And there were also the French of Alsace and Lorraine (170 thousand, of which killed - 50 thousand), mobilized Silesian Poles (remember the film "three tankers, Georgians ...), Czechs ... At least, in human resources - was parity! Plus, the developed transport communications of Europe allowed the opponents of the USSR to beat the Red Army in terms of mobility (in the first periods of the war)




Now, actually about the numbers ...

And again, no preliminary comments! When calculating the German losses, there are a number of nuances, such as:

it is difficult to understand what Germany is talking about - in some data, Germany is taken into account within the boundaries of 37 of the year, in other 39 of the year.

And most often, when accounting for losses, in order to downplay them, it is assumed Germany within the boundaries of 37 of the year. In such calculations, the 270000 of the Austrian Germans and the 200000 of the Sudeten Germans fall completely in another column. As we can see, almost half a million dead in the fighting, the Germans are on the "balance" of other countries.

"Of the 3777290 Germans caught in Soviet captivity, 85,1% returned home, died in captivity - 14,9%.

All in all, our troops captured 4337,3 thousand German soldiers, of whom about 600000 people, after appropriate verification, were released directly on the fronts. In the bulk, these were persons of non-German nationality who were forcefully drafted into the Wehrmacht and the armies of its allies (Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Romanians, Slovenes, Bulgarians, Moldovans, Volksdeutsche, etc.)




Of the 4559, thousands of Soviet soldiers captured only about 40% returned home, and 55% died in captivity and only a small group (more than 180 thousand) emigrated to other countries.

In assessing German losses, only losses of the Wehrmacht and the SS troops were taken into account. In addition, due to the lack of reliable, the losses of the military field police, security service agencies (SD) and the military administration in the occupied territories (about 600 thousand people), Gestapo men who were not part of the SS forces (250 thousand people) were not included, security and punitive divisions - legions, battalions, companies (about 200 thousand people) ...




... According to General Halder, the percentage of irretrievable loss of life (killed, missing) of military formations and contingents that were not part of the Wehrmacht was very high, and reached 40% of their total number "

Russia and USSR wars 20 century. Statistical research.

"For example, in one of the heroic Stalingrad hospitals for 45 work days, from July 1 to August 15 1942, out of the 13,6 thou., All injured people received during this time, that is, 262% ...

... the percentage of mortality among the wounded soldiers of the Wehrmacht was 10% ...

... the percentage of mortality in the US Army was - 2,9%

Canada - 6,7%

Australia - 4,6%

New Zealand - 7,5% "

History combat losses. B.T. Urlanis




Losses among Vlasovites, Bandera, policemen, other groups of traitors, forest brothers of various spills, etc. were credited to the "balance" of losses in Soviet Russia.

And all this must be taken into account in determining the losses of the Red Army and civilian casualties!

Western analysts never came to an unambiguous assessment of combat losses in the Second World War,

"The Statistical Bulletin" in the January issue of 1946 a year, the number of dead and dead for the entire period of the Second World War is determined by 9,5 million people. Other calculations give higher figures of losses. For example, the weekly 'We Were published in Bern (Switzerland) “I published 1946 in January, the results of losses in the Second World War, according to which 14450 killed thousands of people at the front, i.e., 50% more than the figure of the“ Statistical Bulletin. ”The same figure was given by O. Grotewohl in March 1946 of the year The statistical journal of the GDR states that In World War 13 million soldiers and officers died. Regardless of which of the figures given is correct, there is no doubt that the losses in World War II far exceeded those in World War I

History of war casualties. B. Ts. Urlanis. (P. 240-241)




We take as a basis the figure in 14450 thousand people, round up to 15 millions, and we note that this is a battle loss. What remains to be done to an inquisitive person? To subtract the losses of Germany (we are taught that the Germans were very, very pedantically counting their losses). And the fact that our trackers are finding the remains of hundreds of thousands of German soldiers in the marshes of North-West Russia - it does not count !:

"... a secret archive of German military losses was discovered for the period from September 1 1939 to November 30 1944 of the year. According to this archive, German losses were (in thousands):

Army - 1709,7 killed, missing - 1540,8

Navy - dead 51,8, missing - 32.2

Aviation - 149,6; missing - 141,0

Total - killed 1911,3, missing - 1713,0

Total - 3624,3




Since all the "missing" in essence represent the same article of losses as the dead, the total number of dead German soldiers and officers, even according to official data, was 3,6 million. If we add more losses for December 1944 and January - May 1945, then the total number of dead soldiers of the Wehrmacht will be - about 4 million people "

History of combat losses. B. Ts. Urlanis. (p. 207-208)




However, some experts estimate the losses of the German army at 8,4 million (someone estimates the losses at 7 million). We agree with the ancient wisdom of "the truth is in the middle," and we get a figure in 6,2 million. We will subtract this figure from 15 million, as a result we will get the number of losses of other participants of the Second World War - about 8-9 million people. What kind of "Astafyev" numbers in 7-10 of the Red Army laid for the sake of one Yubermensch-German can we talk about?

The following facts should be taken into account: the irretrievable losses of the countries of Germany’s formal allies amounted to

Hungary - 809066 people

Italy - 92867 ...

Romania - 475070 ...

Finland - 84377 ...

Slovakia - 6765 ...




To more fully understand the need to decide on the losses of the Red Army:

"... the demographic losses of the Armed Forces of the USSR (killed, died of wounds and illness, died as a result of accidents, shot by conviction of military tribunals, did not return from captivity) amounted to 8 668 400 people on the list ...

... Demographic losses of servicemen from Russian citizens amounted to 6 537,1 thousand people or 71,3% of the total demographic losses of the Armed Forces of the USSR ... of which Russians made 5,756,0 thousand people or 66,402% of the total number of losses "

Russia and the USSR in the wars of the 20 century. Statistical research, (p. 236)

The losses of the USSR and Russia are enormous, but not so inferior to the losses of the enemy as they try to beat us!




Let's turn to other numbers:

The distance from the borders from which the aggression began, to Moscow is 670 kilometers. Napoleonic Euroarmada covered this distance in 83 of the day. The Germans overcame the same distance - 166 days.

The German press reported that the capture of Norway cost them only 1317 people killed, the seizure of Greece - 1484 people, Poland - 10572 people. In total, for the first year of the world war, Germany’s military losses amounted to 39 thousand people killed, 143 thousand wounded and 24 thousand missing. And just before the attack on Soviet Russia, for the period 1 of the year and 10 months of world war, according to official figures, the loss amounted to almost 300 thousand people (killed, wounded and missing)

But now, in the fall of 1941, the number of personnel reached 60-70 people, according to German generals in the army of the Center Center, in most infantry companies, and in the majority of cases, the number of personnel in the company dropped to 40 "

Agree, such figures do not speak about the panic flight of the Red Army in that distant 41 year.

And in the battles for Moscow from 6 December to 27 December 41, the German army lost only thousands of soldiers and officers killed around 120. For comparison: during the strategic offensive operation from 5 December 1941 of the year to 7 in January of 1942 of the year, in the battle for Moscow, the irrecoverable losses of the Red Army were (killed, wounded and missing) about 140 thousand people.

With the stampede of the Red Army, the German army could not suffer such losses. There was a retreat, accompanied by heavy, bloody battles, but not a stampede, in which we diligently convince.

And already in the battle for Stalingrad, which is divided into two periods: the defensive and offensive phase - the total irretrievable (killed, wounded and missing) of the Red Army amounted to about 480 thousand people, the irrevocable losses of the German army, as well as its allies - over 800 Thousands of people.

During the period from July 5 to November 5, 1943 of the year, the Red Army defeated enemy divisions 144. As a result of this defeat, the Germans lost up to 900 thousand. Only killed.

Allowing even that, the losses of the Red Army amounted to 10 million people; then after deducting this figure, from the 28 of the millions now adopted - 18 of the millions will amount to civilian casualties. Project these victims mainly on the territory of Ukraine and Belarus and imagine what demographic situation should have been, with such losses, in these territories. Definitely, Belarus as such could not be now!

Representatives of all peoples of the USSR served in the Red Army, and therefore every nation of the USSR had its share in the losses of the Red Army. But here 18 of millions of losses among the civilian population is mainly distributed among the population of Belarus, Ukraine and Russia!




And for the curious:

The population of France in 1939 was about 42 million people, the population of modern France is about 60 million.

The population of Italy in 1939 is about 44 million people, modern Italy is about 60 million.

(I chose these two states-people, because they have recently demonstrated a high birth rate)

The population of Russia in 1937 was about 100 million (all Russians in the USSR are about 100 million people), the population of modern Russia is about 145 million people (Russians in 1989 year - about 145 million)

You can trust the figures announced after the war by Stalin: 12-14 million people (does this figure reduce the merits of our grandfathers and great-grandfathers?).




A colossal, unprecedented sacrifice, but in no way a sacrifice of sheep, submissively putting their throats under the knife. And most likely, for Soviet Russia, this was the most optimal way out of this situation. After all, in the case of a preventive strike by the Red Army on the German troops, the entire Western army was ready to rush into Soviet Russia! Similar plans by the West were considered in the period before and during the Soviet-Finnish war. And the mistakes of the command and leadership, which are constantly being blown away, were not as critical as they were rubbing us! And if anyone can be blamed for the heavy sacrifices suffered by Soviet Russia in the first period of the war, then this is the West! After all, it is his readiness to rush to Russia and this will catastrophically worsen the situation for Russia, hampered Russia's capabilities.

It can be assumed that, despite the fact that England and France (this country is a separate song in general: the losses of France after the opening of the second front amounted to 14 thousand people, the losses of the “Fighting France” from the moment of surrender to the Allied invasion amounted to - 11 thousand killed and those who died of injuries. Compare with the numbers of the dead French citizens who fought on the German side - at least 70 thousand) were at war with Germany, somewhere at some level there could be a secret agreement on joint actions against our country. This is indicated by the strange visit of Rudolf Hess to the UK and even more bizarre detention (there was a personal prison for him). This is also indicated by the delay in the opening of the second front, but even more is indicated by the terrible bombardments of the cities of Germany after the Battle of Stalingrad; thus, the criminals put out their rage and cruelty on the faces that did not meet their expectations. This is of course another topic.

weaponry

Soviet Union Produced 97% weapons and military equipment used by the Red Army. I found this information in one of the declassified documents of the US Army at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, in 1956. The information about the weapons produced by the Russians is as follows:

100% of their own artillery (superior heavy artillery). By the middle of 1943, the Red Army had a five-fold superiority in artillery compared to the German army, in the middle of 1944 - tenfold, in 1945 - thirty-fold.
100% small arms. The now well-known AK-47 began to produce in 1947.
99% tanks (The Soviet T-34 was recognized as the best tank of the Second World War). Soviet tank production rose to 29000 units in 1944. The United States produced only 17500 in the same year. German military industry peaked in 1944 despite massive bombardments by the Americans and the British.
93% aircraft -82% military cargo transport
Russian soldier

The best descriptions of the Russian soldier left by German soldiers, generals, British generals and Russian Jews, who was a correspondent during the war. Vasily Grossman wrote:




“I was amazed to the depth of my soul by the inherent ability of Russian soldiers to sacrifice themselves. In war, a Russian soldier puts on a white shirt and dies like a saint. In the first place is patience and humility in front of unthinkable. But this is the patience of the strong in spirit .. This is the patience of the great army. The greatness of the Russian soul is amazing. ”

A German soldier at Stalingrad wrote that Russians are not people, but rather creatures made of cast iron. In his book, Willy Riis writes about the attitudes of the Germans who visited the Eastern Front. He noted that German veterans openly admired Russian soldiers, which was rarely the case with their Western opponents.

One of the German veterans successfully described the war in the West as a "good sport", while the war in the East was a complete disaster. A high-ranking German staff officer after the war wrote about the merits of the enemy: the strength of the Red Army in its soldiers. The Russian soldier is patient and incredibly enduring, infinitely brave and fearless. The peculiarity of the Russians is their pronounced contempt for life and death, which is completely incomprehensible for a person in the West.




British General Giffard Martel spoke of the following about the Russian soldier: their bravery on the battlefield is beyond doubt, but their more prominent feature is incredible strength and endurance.

The last title of Hero of the Soviet Union was received by a Russian soldier in the final days of the Battle of Berlin. He heroically saved a German woman and her four-year-old daughter. However, he was mortally wounded and died a few days later. When he was asked who to report his exploits to, he replied that no one, his whole family had died during the war. This is the highest manifestation of heroism.

The battles fought by the Russians saved the lives of millions of Americans. How did the Russians win?




Their soldiers were better.

They had better weapons and more of them.

Their generals were better.

German generals came from aristocratic families.

The British generals were from gentry.

Russian generals were from peasants.
Author:
Originator:
http://www.warandpeace.ru
153 comments
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  1. erased
    erased 15 October 2012 08: 04
    +32
    The exact loss figures are now difficult to name; burials are still being found, and most of them are people who were not injured in the loss graphs.
    That in the West and some of us strive to denigrate history is clear to everyone. It is difficult to count on objectivity, everything is on order.
    And when you delve into the documents, the essence of what is happening 70 years ago, you begin to understand what a great deed our ancestors did. For what honor and glory to them is eternal!
    And it’s a shame for the descendants, since the achievements of the Great Victory were not preserved.
    1. nickname 1 and 2
      nickname 1 and 2 15 October 2012 11: 03
      +23
      erased,

      Trojan horse - remember ???
      And here a similar move was applied!
      You cannot win only by defending yourself! (not in vain, melee, so often used in the Second World War)
      It was necessary, inventively smash p / opponents!
      And now, now, continues, the people - "podmahayat" all sorts of Swamp creatures!
      How can I save it?
      Putin greatly corrected the situation received from EBN! We would rally!
      Don't be sold for "flavoring agents"! Don't rely on "freebies"! Do not envy the "oligarchs"! (their time is limited) Forget the most "rotten!" saying: "For free, vinegar is sweet!" Sweet then he is, sweet, only - stomach ulcer from such sweet vinegar = guaranteed! fool
      1. zh1
        zh1 16 October 2012 13: 10
        +1
        It is believed that Troy was a Russian city.
        1. Evrepid
          Evrepid 16 October 2012 16: 23
          +2
          How's that?

          In general, wherever you stick everywhere the Russians were :)
          And which Russians? Those who were Varangians or those who are Mordovians, Drevlya and kravela?
          1. vadimN
            vadimN 19 October 2012 16: 07
            0
            Quote: Evrepid
            And which Russians? Those who were Varangians or those who are Mordovians, Drevlya and kravela?


            ... But does it matter? That so, that way - all the same Russian. We do not calculate now who is more Russian - Smolensk, St. Petersburg, Muscovites or Samara ...
      2. USNik
        USNik 17 October 2012 09: 36
        +1
        About games with numbers is well described in the book / audiobook by Yuri Mukhin "Mass nonsense", and about 100500 million dead, and about over9000 knocked out Soviet tanks and about a lot of downed planes ...
    2. vanya
      vanya 15 October 2012 14: 02
      +6
      correct article, but there are questions:
      1. The distance from the borders from which aggression began to Moscow is 670 kilometers ??? borders with Finland? from Brest to Moscow in a straight line 997 kilometers, to Grodno more than 1000.
      2. When summing up losses, prisoners are partially included in the number of missing persons.
      1. arkady149
        arkady149 16 October 2012 21: 17
        0
        The presence of thoughtful readers on the site cannot but please you
    3. aviator46
      aviator46 15 October 2012 23: 55
      +2
      Quote -
      In the huge buildings of the former artillery school on wooden shelves, thousands of tons of papers were dumped to the ceiling. Museum staff said that after May 1945, documents of the headquarters of the fronts, armies, corps, and divisions were brought here by cars. Felled into a heap without any inventory. What is contained in most folders - so far no one has seen. How, in this state of affairs, can one judge that the truth is about that war, and what is its falsification?
      Documents at least simply read by researchers - 10-15 percent. Not more.

      http://svpressa.ru/society/article/41775/
      Shame - 70 years did not mean to study documents and calculate losses.
      1. smel
        smel 16 October 2012 15: 12
        +4
        I look - they are minus. It's a pity ... Many on the site, especially moderators, do not accept a different point of view than their own. And even their knowledge, sometimes insufficiently complete, is passed off as the ultimate truth.
        I agree that we know little about the real picture of the war, let alone losses. What can I say !!! It’s not a secret to anyone that they went into battle in the morning with a replenishment that arrived at night. Therefore, they did not know either the names, surnames, or even the number of soldiers in the company. Yes, and to this day, little has changed. If you doubt, please visit Ingushetia, art. .Troitskaya. On the monument, try to figure out the loss of the 503 regiment.
        1. Evrepid
          Evrepid 16 October 2012 16: 27
          +2
          Yeah, the Essian writes: "We called them (the Russians who went on the attack without weapons) ravens, because of the color of the coat they were wearing."
          1. Pessimist
            Pessimist 20 October 2012 11: 35
            0
            Quote: Evrepid
            Yeah, the Essian writes: "We called them (the Russians who went on the attack without weapons) ravens, because of the color of the coat they were wearing."

            Please give a link to this info!
  2. dfdfdfd
    dfdfdfd 15 October 2012 08: 14
    -34
    And what is the difference in general what are the losses of the losers? All of them ensured the victory of the United States in World War II and the US losses are known to within a unit irrevocably 405 399 almost half a million Americans and 3 thousand more civilians .. and 10 29 30 40 million, should you consider the Nazis and Nazis? The more they died on both sides the better, but unfortunately many Americans died, and only they are worthy of memory and respect, only they brought freedom to Europe.
    1. erased
      erased 15 October 2012 08: 17
      +8
      Like yes. The USSR won, and the United States won. Nuance, but very important.
      1. nickname 1 and 2
        nickname 1 and 2 15 October 2012 10: 20
        0
        erased,

        But it always has been! At all times! So, do not worry, they will be rewarded! And fate will thank us!

        He who lives in satiety and bliss (at the expense of others) is itself destroyed!
      2. arkady149
        arkady149 16 October 2012 21: 20
        0
        Victory is labor, gain is luck, and freeloaders do not favor labor.
    2. Sakhalininsk
      Sakhalininsk 15 October 2012 08: 42
      0
      What a vile provocateur.
    3. MichaelVl
      MichaelVl 15 October 2012 09: 18
      +2
      And you, uh ... ok, live in Russia?
      Bend to America and live there and bow to her, Although you can’t live there, because such as you do not respect and merge sooner or later. Such filth like you do not belong to the Nazis, nor the Communists, nor the bourgeoisie. You will be strangled by your own, because you will betray secretly.
      I think that almost everyone on this site would strangle you for the yapping you scribbled here. In wartime, you’d definitely be strangled, but in peacetime, you’ll suffer somehow sooner or later :)) Normal people will inflict physical losses on you :)))
      Shafty!
    4. mongoose
      mongoose 15 October 2012 09: 22
      +6
      buy a rope with soap yourself?
    5. Professor
      Professor 15 October 2012 09: 43
      +2
      Do not feed the troll.
    6. Matematos
      Matematos 15 October 2012 10: 12
      0
      all the disadvantages due to the fact that people did not understand sarcasm in these words ...
    7. Basilevs
      Basilevs 15 October 2012 10: 39
      +4
      It stinks like, who did that shit? In what country did they forget to strangle him in the hospital, damn mankurt?
    8. klimpopov
      klimpopov 15 October 2012 10: 53
      +2
      OOOOOOO very thick ...
      Maybe a new record for the minuses will set ...
    9. Fox 070
      Fox 070 15 October 2012 11: 56
      +6
      Quote: dfdfdfd
      they ensured the victory of the United States in World War II

      Man, are you healthy ??? A resident of America because of his own illiteracy, or an individual who is completely inadequate, can confirm this.
    10. Jaros81
      Jaros81 15 October 2012 12: 22
      0
      dfdfdfd, you are just an interesting "character" Did the people in white coats from the respective establishment bother you? I think it's high time
    11. rkka
      rkka 15 October 2012 12: 31
      +4
      Do not be mad, someone created a new nickname, so that later on denying your own words, get a couple of pluses, IMHO.
    12. POMA
      POMA 15 October 2012 13: 01
      0
      I feel sorry for you !!!
  3. Professor
    Professor 15 October 2012 08: 38
    -21
    In the first "photo" the soldier has a "trophy" watch on both hands. I heard about similar stories, but here ... request
    1. nickname 1 and 2
      nickname 1 and 2 15 October 2012 10: 28
      +3
      Professor,
      Look at you! (no fainting)

      And he remembers the seven mouths that await him, the breadwinner! Nothing special!
      As well, we do not worry about our roots when we killed our enemy and ate! Other times, different consciousness, other requirements - to survive!
    2. Fox 070
      Fox 070 15 October 2012 12: 16
      +21
      Quote: Professor
      "trophy" watches on both hands.

      So what? Have you come out here to go stink, or what do you say on business? Engage in translations and do not meddle in topics that are beyond your understanding. Your fellow tribesmen rested 90 billion marks from Germany for the mythical "Holocaust" and slowly, in one mug, eat them under the covers, leaning out from time to time, and in a thin voice yelling: "Help, give me Vaseline ..." Vaseline still needs to be earned!
      This is for starters ... And if you compare the original and this retouched version, it becomes clear that on the original the commander has NO CLOCK on the right hand.
      That, professor, you are beginning to replace the "retired comrades". I will repeat once again - sit quietly and do translations.
      1. Professor
        Professor 15 October 2012 14: 22
        0
        I repeat once again - sit quietly and do translations.

        Do not tell me what to do and I will not tell you where to go.
    3. tambourine 2012
      tambourine 2012 15 October 2012 12: 47
      +13
      there is nothing better than killing an enemy to take his thing to a woman and enter his house
    4. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 15 October 2012 20: 42
      +2
      Quote: Professor
      In the first "photo" the soldier has a "trophy" watch on both hands. I heard about similar stories, but here ..

      Did you determine from the photograph that the watch is trophy?
      Or, as they say, anyone that hurts, he says that.
      1. Professor
        Professor 16 October 2012 08: 42
        -10
        Did you determine from the photograph that the watch is trophy?

        No, he bought them on a military basis for free sale. Or his uncle worked at a watch factory and he just had a lot of these watches, so he sent to anyone.
        1. lewerlin53rus
          lewerlin53rus 22 October 2012 09: 00
          0
          Are you sure that the second hand has a watch, and not, for example, a compass?
    5. urzul
      urzul 16 October 2012 13: 26
      +3
      Nothing of the kind, the parents still have somewhere the trophy shaving kit for the SS officer lies, from the grandfather remained.
  4. Sakhalininsk
    Sakhalininsk 15 October 2012 08: 44
    +10
    This is all the eternal craving for self-flagellation and fairy tales.
    The article is a big plus, everything is quite competently and objectively stated.
    1. Click-Klyak
      Click-Klyak 15 October 2012 09: 52
      -6
      Oh no. Not at all objective.
      It is absurd to compare human resources in this way - heaping the population of "all of Europe".
      Firstly, the population of the USSR before the war is an incomprehensible figure. The history of the pre-war censuses is known, we will not dwell on it.
      Secondly, out of 40 million Italians - who fought in the USSR? Minuscule. And already in 1943, Italy declared war on Germany. The same is true for Romania, Finland, etc. It can be said that these countries simply gave a limited contingent. And to consider all of their population in the resources of the AIS is strange.
      Yes, and resources were used in different ways. The Germans did not think of sending women to the front.
      In principle, it has long been agreed that the losses are about 3: 1. For one killed German, we pay three lives. Recently, it has become fashionable to pull the numbers, underestimating their losses and overstating the German to 1,3: 1.
      And the losses of the USSR, of course, are not 28 million. No one will explain how this is even calculated. The loss of the army is about 10 million, the civilian population is about 5-6. Under Stalin, the number 7 was declared, under Brezhnev 20, under Gorbachev 28. True, there is some kind of race.
      1. rkka
        rkka 15 October 2012 12: 41
        -17
        verb business. The fact that Stalin’s favorite was Zhukov was a rare proven fact. With such a general, there’s nothing to be surprised at 3 million
        1. karbofos
          karbofos 15 October 2012 15: 15
          -2
          rkka listen you gov..but on a stick, are you a great commander ?! It’s interesting to see you how you would command the troops. as you already got from the corner, you and the others barking, sitting in your muhos.ranske do not care about those who can not answer you. are you a man and if you want, I’ll be responsible for G.K.Zhukov. tell mr ... if I’m going to drive you into ur ... I’ll discharge the entire clip. it’s you ... mediocre and technical school graduate you can’t do anything useful, so you just have to shit because your parents taught you nothing good probably thumped instead of taking you to the WWII museum. In general, I suggest that you and your gay friends click-fuck, Taratut and everyone with gray shoulder straps agree and hammer the wall-to-wall arrow, as in the good old days our grandfathers were Red Army men and your grandfathers were policemen and traitors. I think that even on this forum there are a couple of three guys who also express a desire to look at your broken faces. but I think that you are stuck, and you’ll continue to yap a yavka from the gateway.
          1. Nord007hold
            Nord007hold 15 October 2012 17: 18
            +2
            Why so much aggression? rkka expressed his opinion, and to agree with him or not, this is a personal matter for everyone. Well, attacks of this kind (such as a snout) will look somewhat ugly.
            And finally - Zhukov, of course, was not mediocre (to say this is simply stupid in my opinion), but under pressure from above he often dated operations to certain anniversaries or holidays (as well as other commanders of the Red Army), and this often negatively affected the balance of losses.
            1. karbofos
              karbofos 16 October 2012 00: 45
              +6
              What for!!!! but because they got such clever guys like rkka, mongooses, etc. sitting in an easy chair, chewing white bread and drinking sweet tea, spitting into the graves and shouting, well, what mediocrity, you don't know how to fight? !!!. on any article about the heroic deeds of people or about some significant victory, these "truth-tellers" are right there to write nasty things! in every post they tell us - you have nothing and nobody to be proud of. I keep asking these clever guys the same question, how would you act in that situation, but so far not one intelligible answer has been received - one foam. am do not accept
              1. maxpa
                maxpa 18 October 2012 07: 37
                0
                Respect if we all think so in the country everything will be fine
            2. smel
              smel 16 October 2012 15: 17
              +2
              Especially remember if Berlin, when the artillery on an empty front end worked, and then the infantry paid for it with their lives.
              1. Pessimist
                Pessimist 20 October 2012 11: 45
                0
                Quote: smel
                Especially remember if Berlin, when the artillery on an empty front end worked, and then the infantry paid for it with their lives.

                Where did you get this, please give a source, very interesting ...
          2. aviator46
            aviator46 15 October 2012 23: 39
            0
            How much beer did you drink ???
            Bazaar as in the gateway ... do not agree - write in the subject.
            1. karbofos
              karbofos 16 October 2012 00: 47
              0
              I don’t drink beer and alcohol in general. sport is my beer good and on the topic above
        2. carbofo
          carbofo 16 October 2012 16: 34
          0
          rkka,
          Losses due to Zhukov's fault (as you deigned to say), a drop in a sea of ​​blood, does not fundamentally affect statistics.
        3. LTL70
          LTL70 17 October 2012 13: 37
          0
          Rkka, you are a complete fool - recognized by the whole world as the greatest colonel (incomparable with truly mediocre Nazi generals - they didn’t win the war, or you say that they are winners) G.K. Zhukov, according to your stupid understanding, is mediocre - even a schizo from a song-dog will never think of such a thing !!!
        4. MakSim51ru
          MakSim51ru 18 October 2012 12: 42
          +1
          But adolescents of 12 years old to poke in their hands and send to the battle for Berlin this is not an atrocity?
      2. nnz226
        nnz226 15 October 2012 12: 46
        +10
        Both Romanians, Hungarians and Finns fought in the USSR with full dedication !!! Spitting often on the cruelty of even the Germans! Especially in the "war" with the civilian population! There are also memories of the Germans themselves from the Wehrmacht and eyewitnesses. And they smashed them with tens of thousands! "Limited contingent" is how much ??? How is it in Afghanistan - about 100-150 thousand ??? so near Odessa in 1941 there were more than half a million Romanians! Hungarians at the beginning of 1943 near Voronezh and further were crumbled - see article + they actively fought right up to the capture of Budapest.
        1. Taratut
          Taratut 15 October 2012 13: 27
          -9
          Quote: nnz226
          And the Romanians, and the Hungarians, and the Finns fought in the USSR with full dedication !!!

          Not true.
          The best parts of Hungary and Romania remained on the Romanian-Hungarian border.
          You see, they had claims to each other.
          In 1941, the Carpathian group fought from Hungary - 40 thousand people.
          The Finns, in fact, only in 1941 and fought. Further it was the quietest front (until 1944). But we ourselves provoked them with our bombardments.
          220 thousand invaded from Romania.
          If interested, here are the numbers.
          http://www.volk59.narod.ru/Euroforces.htm
          1. Brother Sarych
            Brother Sarych 15 October 2012 13: 47
            +7
            Do you have your own story again? By perseverance, the Hungarians were almost in second place after the Germans themselves, and they fought, as they say, to the stop ...
            1. Taratut
              Taratut 15 October 2012 20: 32
              -1
              At the end of the war, yes. We fought. So what?
          2. Denzel13
            Denzel13 16 October 2012 11: 14
            0
            It seems that until the money in the State Department runs out, singers will multiply, multiply and insert their "historical" references written in the same place.

            And Taratut does not need to use the concept of "we" in relation to the USSR - you just had to do with this country can only be at the place of birth.

            PS Regarding the participation of the Finns and others in the war, read the literature carefully. The same memoirs of the Wehrmacht generals.
      3. aviator46
        aviator46 16 October 2012 00: 11
        -3
        Quote-
        The census of the USSR in 1959 established that there were almost 20 million fewer men who could have been wartime by age than women of the same age. This deficit can only be explained by "unnatural", military reasons.
        The amount of losses killed and dead should be considered not 8,66 million, as we are strongly recommended, but at least 18,5 million. This tragic value is the sum of the counts according to the card index of the Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. From the information about the fate of the militia divisions. About losses among partisans. From among the killed and dead prisoners of war ...


        http://www.sovsekretno.ru/magazines/article/2788
        1. MakSim51ru
          MakSim51ru 18 October 2012 13: 08
          0
          wrote an answer, but somewhere he disappeared, but the bottom line is this: the comrades of statistics absolutely do not take into account some factors, for example, a decrease in the number of births and an increase in infant and especially infant mortality during the war years, and then the population is determined taking into account its NATURAL loss
      4. MakSim51ru
        MakSim51ru 18 October 2012 12: 39
        0
        well, of course, the loss of susuru is not 28 million. They just calculated that. According to censuses, 39 and, if I am not mistaken, 54 years. But!!! They completely forgot about the fact that Kaliningrad, Tuva, Pechenga, Hanko and a number of other territories went to us after the war (with their population). This is what they say "once" Let's go further - the 39th census remained incomplete this is "two" And finally the same Urlanis gives the number of defectors in 500 thousand people this is "three"
        And I forgot: besides the Sudetes and Austria, there is also Silesia and Alsace and Lorraine, about which 64 thousand only Polish prisoners who voluntarily joined the Wehrmacht are always "forgotten". And as for the Chetniks and Ustasha of the French and Norwegians, I generally keep quiet.
      5. Pessimist
        Pessimist 20 October 2012 11: 43
        0
        Quote: Click-Gag
        And the losses of the USSR, of course, are not 28 million. No one will explain how this is even calculated. The loss of the army is about 10 million, the civilian population is about 5-6. Under Stalin, the number 7 was declared, under Brezhnev 20, under Gorbachev 28. True, there is some kind of race.

        Exactly! Try, for example, to evaluate the losses of opponents in the Finnish war! Very interesting conclusions will come out, even from open sources! If we carefully compare all the losses, we get almost parity, the difference is about 20% somewhere! And everywhere they yell about the tenfold losses of the Red Army ....
    2. aviator46
      aviator46 16 October 2012 00: 05
      0
      In the order of the Deputy People’s Commissar of Defense E.A. Shchadenko of April 12, 1942 said:
      “The personnel records, especially the losses records, are completely unsatisfactory in the army ...
      The headquarters of the compounds do not send timely to the center of the names of the dead.
      As a result of the untimely and incomplete submission by the military units of the lists of losses, a large discrepancy was obtained between the data of numerical and personal accounting of losses.
      Personal registration is currently not more than one THREE of the actual number of deaths. The personal records of the missing and captured are even FAR from the truth. ”
       
      On March 7, 1945, Stalin, in an order on the People’s Commissariat of Defense, emphasized that “the military councils of the fronts, armies and military districts do not pay due attention” to the issues of personal accounting of irretrievable losses.
      It remains to calculate the Soviet losses by means of estimates, because their underestimation in the surviving documents is several times higher than the actual value.
      -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
      --------------------------

      The head of the Department of Defense to perpetuate the memory of the dead Alexander Kirillin -
      "It is unlikely that it will ever be possible to identify each person who died in the war by surname ... the search continues, although there are some difficulties - almost no archives have been preserved.

      According to the Institute of Russian History, from the years 26 to 26,5 million people died during the Great Patriotic War.
      The number of casualties during the war years will exceed 50 million people, if you include those who died after the military events - this is the so-called "echo of war".
      1. MakSim51ru
        MakSim51ru 18 October 2012 13: 15
        0
        Well, it starts .... What you are talking about is the so-called balance method for determining losses. That is, it was-arrived-gone on ...
        But the fact of the matter is that they consider the accounting statistical method - Before the war, the drain, and even after the drain then ...
        As for 50 million people, this figure of demographic losses (that is, losses of the entire population in all respects (natural, infant mortality, accidents, etc.)) over 20 years between two censuses ...
      2. Pessimist
        Pessimist 20 October 2012 11: 54
        0
        Quote: aviator46
        According to the Institute of Russian History, from the years 26 to 26,5 million people died during the Great Patriotic War.
        The number of casualties during the war years will exceed 50 million people, if you include those who died after the military events - this is the so-called "echo of war".

        "A little" wrong! The Institute of Russian History speaks about 50 million as an indirect loss - demographic damage from the "unborn" children of deceased fathers and mothers. Germany, according to such "calculations", also indirectly lost at least 30 million people, and even if the whole of Europe is evaluated ... In general, "indirect" calculations are propaganda!
  5. Igarr
    Igarr 15 October 2012 08: 44
    +4
    Well, the comments ...
    in which first photo is the clock? Where is the flag above the building?
    ...
    Nothing to say - they would be silent better.
    1. Professor
      Professor 15 October 2012 08: 51
      -15

      I imagined?
      1. Igarr
        Igarr 15 October 2012 09: 20
        +4
        Professor, you didn’t imagine.
        Figs with him, with this, two hours. Although this is quite a compass, it can be.
        I know you from your comments. And this - ".. There is nothing to say - it would be better to be silent." - refers not so much to you as to the previous .. orators.
        ...
        Not a topic to be malicious.
        1. Professor
          Professor 15 October 2012 09: 45
          -5
          Not a topic to be malicious.

          100%
          Therefore, I would change this picture.
          1. Denzel13
            Denzel13 16 October 2012 11: 30
            +6
            The professor is not a picture, it is a red flag over the Reichstag, that is, Victory. And you personally did not ask the question of what kind of fright did Germany pay indemnities after the war? Maybe more was stolen and destroyed than a watch on a soldier's wrist? How many read the memoirs of the Wehrmacht servicemen, none of them even denied that they took property from civilians of the USSR, killed and captured military personnel. In concentration camps, did not the Germans collect clothes, shoes and valuables from the people who got there. Or are these facts to which you are "inconvenient" to pay attention?
            1. Professor
              Professor 16 October 2012 13: 15
              -2
              In the concentration camps, the Germans didn’t collect clothes ...

              Will we be likened to them, or is looting the same?
              1. Kars
                Kars 16 October 2012 13: 20
                +3
                Quote: Professor
                Will we be likened to them, or is looting the same?

                And why not? Let's call it redress))))
                To whom - and not to blame you, pulling money from Germany for losses less than Ukrainians.
              2. Pessimist
                Pessimist 20 October 2012 11: 57
                +1
                Quote: Professor
                Will we be likened to them, or is looting the same?

                These are war trophies! Obviously not taken from a civilian! And the Fritzes robbed precisely civilians ...
            2. Pessimist
              Pessimist 20 October 2012 11: 56
              0
              Quote: Denzel13
              In concentration camps, did not the Germans collect clothes, shoes and valuables from the people who got there. Or are these facts to which you are "inconvenient" to pay attention?

              Au dead and gold teeth tore ...
      2. Lech e-mine
        Lech e-mine 15 October 2012 10: 00
        +7
        PROFESSOR In this case, you attract the desired active.
        Firstly, it is not written on the watch that the watch is trophy. (Maybe it was an award watch or someone gave it or found somewhere - there can be a lot of reasons to have a watch on hand.
        Secondly, there’s nothing wrong with the fact that they are in the hands of a killer.
        1. Professor
          Professor 15 October 2012 11: 02
          -11
          a lot of reasons to have a watch on hand can be

          Have you often met people with a watch on two hands? wink

          I was advised at work by a Hungarian, a dandelion of God, but a specialist from God. he told me the following story. During the war, several high-ranking Soviet officers lived in their homes. The relationship was trusting and somehow his father asked them at dinner: "Why are Soviet soldiers not giving him a pass on the street, asking if he has a wristwatch?" To which one officer replied: "If our party decides that we need a watch, then every man in the country will have a wristwatch."
          Grandfather remembered this dialogue for life.

          PS
          The picture needs to be changed - it is not worth the winner to engage in small things.
          1. Kars
            Kars 15 October 2012 11: 43
            +8
            Quote: Professor
            Why Soviet soldiers do not give him a pass on the street asking if he has a watch? "


            Do you know what the first American soldiers did when they captured Super-duper ace Hartman?

            Quote: Professor
            It’s not worth the winner to engage in small things.

            to the winner all is good. Woe to the vanquished.
            1. Taratut
              Taratut 15 October 2012 13: 29
              -6
              Quote: Kars
              Do you know what the first American soldiers did when they captured Super-duper ace Hartman?

              Yes, in the know. An American soldier robbed him at night. Americans wildly apologized, fed in the officers' mess, etc.
              Do you know what happened to Hartman's comrades who came to the Russians?
              He writes, read.
              1. Kars
                Kars 15 October 2012 14: 30
                +9
                Quote: Taratut
                Yes, in the know. At night

                )))))))))))))))) ridiculed))))))))))))
                “I am Lieutenant Colonel Graf, commander of the 52th fighter squadron of the German Air Force. This is Major Hartmann, the commander of the XNUMXst group of my squadron. The people accompanying us, the personnel of the squadron, along with German civilian refugees. We surrender to the United States Army. ”

                An American officer pulled out a walkie-talkie microphone from the tower and began to talk about something with his headquarters in Pisek. A few minutes later, trucks with soldiers of the American 90th Infantry Division appeared behind the tanks. American soldiers jumped to the ground and began to drive the Germans into a field near the road. They took away weapons from the Germans. Officers were allowed to keep their pistols, and they were required to maintain discipline.

                German watches were especially appreciated as souvenirs. JG-52 personnel immediately lost these items. The Americans had their own watches, and this greatly puzzled Major Grasser. Erich heard the extremely correct Grasser talking to the young American lieutenant who had taken his watch.

                “Is there really a wristwatch in a rich country like America?”



                but about wildly apologizing, I would read.
                Quote: Taratut
                Do you know what happened to Hartman's comrades who came to the Russians?

                less than happened with my grandfather who was captured in 1941 and ended up in the Uman pit
              2. rexby63
                rexby63 15 October 2012 19: 27
                +4
                Comrades, I’ll kill you. They survived. Although they had no moral right
              3. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm 15 October 2012 20: 55
                +6
                Quote: Taratut
                Do you know what happened to Hartman's comrades who came to the Russians?

                I am generally surprised how these barbarians from the Red Army, having come to Europe in 1944, did not take revenge and did not level the loss, but they could.
                And I’m still wondering how many civilians in Germany died from the carpet bombing of the British and Americans.
          2. Lech e-mine
            Lech e-mine 15 October 2012 11: 44
            +4
            DO NOT change the picture, this does not detract from the fact of our victory. And in my life I met people who put on themselves not only for two hours but also for five gold rings on each hand, a kilogram gold chain on the neck, a gold earring on the ears ha ha except laughter it causes nothing.
      3. pussy
        pussy 15 October 2012 10: 27
        +7
        for me it’s not a photo but an artist’s free work
      4. igordok
        igordok 15 October 2012 12: 18
        0
        The military also has a compass. Although the picture from the photograph, and the artist could be mistaken.
      5. nickname 1 and 2
        nickname 1 and 2 15 October 2012 15: 07
        +5
        HEY,
        Professor
        Well, turn on your head! This soldier, miraculously did not fly to the bottom! It is seen? Miraculously kept on his feet! The cloth is in motion! There, behind the soldier, is another one who holds him and insures against the case of a jerk of the wind.
        Himself, this insurer, is still in a worse situation, because hanging is not clear why, clinging to! Perhaps sticking his hand in and clinging to something, the clock interfered! He handed them over to the commander who put them on his arm! So .... file, file = past!
        And by the way, Mr. provocateur, this is the left hand of that very soldier !!!!
        Wipe your eyes (glasses)! Two left hands !!!! and with the second hand - with his right and head, he holds the standard bearer! like that! tongue tongue
        1. Joker
          15 October 2012 18: 55
          +4
          The victory banner was set by 2 according to the official version, Yegorov and Kantaria, so there could be no third, unless of course it was supposed to be a severed German hand, I didn’t want to let the soldier in, I clung to his trouser leg, he cut off his hand with a sapper blade and his hand in a dying cramp she squeezed very tightly, so our soldier sighed and climbed so, with a dangling German hand on his leg wink
          And according to the unofficial version it was like that.
          I remember how the commander of the 756 regiment Zinchenko shouted: “Where is the banner?” Not on the column it should be. Up to the roof of the Reichstag! To let everyone see! “After some time, the fighters returned depressed - it’s dark, there is no flashlight, they did not find a way to the roof. Zinchenko swore so that the walls trembled as during shelling. More than an hour has passed. They thought everything: there is no one alive. And suddenly we see: against the background of the glass dome of the Reichstag, three are dancing. It is clear that not with joy. It's just that if you move, you’re less likely to get hit by a bullet ”[

          Here is a photo, as you can see there is no supportive person at all. So the chip with the clock is fiction.
          1. Joker
            15 October 2012 18: 56
            +4
            There is such a photo, there is also no clock. All photos are clickable.
            1. Professor
              Professor 16 October 2012 08: 49
              0
              And I'm talking about this - the picture for the article must be replaced with this photo.
              1. nickname 1 and 2
                nickname 1 and 2 16 October 2012 21: 48
                0
                Professor,

                Show this picture to the sculptor, at worst, to a good artist!

                Not the right hand, of this officer, this! It didn’t hurt naturally she was twisted for his shoulder! And the fingers, the middle finger, are on top, which means the left one!
                Yes, and not to resist him, the standard bearer! Officer - he is holding on to his left! Ah, he must keep the right soldier! By logic! Why is he holding himself with both hands ??? What about a soldier? Hands are busy! An awkward movement and he along with the banner below! So??? Is it logical ???
        2. ALPETSEM
          ALPETSEM 15 October 2012 19: 55
          +4
          And why if with a round glass, hold on your hand a leather strap, then immediately watch ??? And if this ... then it was problematic with GPS navigators, more and more they were treated like this.
        3. Professor
          Professor 16 October 2012 08: 47
          0
          Wipe your eyes (glasses)! Two left hands !!!!

          His eyes were rubbed, but two left hands did not work - the thumb does not fit into your theory. You either come up with a realistic explanation or an optometrist.
      6. MakSim51ru
        MakSim51ru 18 October 2012 13: 36
        0
        But nothing that it could be a compass?
  6. Prometey
    Prometey 15 October 2012 09: 13
    +6
    I read von Melentin’s memoirs — through a line, either a lie or wishful thinking. So he writes that in the USSR in 1944 there was no one else to call, so the men of draft age ended. And for slaughter the Wehrmacht began to supply 15-16 year olds. It goes without saying that the author is lying godlessly. But in Germany, the reserves were not yet exhausted (only apparently from the despair during the assault on Berlin, fighters of the Hitler Youth were thrown under the tracks of Soviet tanks).
    1. dom.lazar
      dom.lazar 16 October 2012 02: 18
      0
      he’s lying, he’s not lying, a neighbor lives in his next apartment 27 years of birth, he’s called
      how old was he then
  7. dfdfdfd
    dfdfdfd 15 October 2012 09: 15
    -4
    Raska, a square Vatnik, is opposed against the zhidofinns in the Soviet-Finnish War.
  8.  pistons
    pistons 15 October 2012 09: 15
    +12
    I would like to add ... Germany's combat losses do not include the dead members of the Volkssturm organization and other paramilitary organizations.

    They did not pass in the lists either for the "Wehrmacht" or for the "SS"

    Unlike Soviet volunteers ..
  9. mongoose
    mongoose 15 October 2012 09: 21
    +2
    the author, all the same, should choose expressions when he writes about such things! I understand youthful maximalism, it’s playing, but it’s worth watching what you say! And everyone, unlike him, knew perfectly how the losses of the army and civilians differ
    1. nickname 1 and 2
      nickname 1 and 2 15 October 2012 11: 12
      +1
      mongoose,

      Yes, okay, albeit clumsily and not exactly. Let be! The main thing is, finally, a ray of truth has broken through, among a huge amount of LIES!
      Until then, we agreed = it’s not clear by what miracle we won !!!!
      And - a million traitors !!!

      Skunk - although it’s small, it’s = out-of-the-box. !!!!!
      Many such skunks - divorced! wassat
  10. ism_ek
    ism_ek 15 October 2012 09: 54
    -14
    The article is a meaningless pile of numbers. What the author wanted is incomprehensible.
    What they wrote under Stalin is a lie. Stalin wholly multiplied his merits and belittled the merits of the people. Under Stalin, even Victory Day was forbidden to celebrate. All heroic films about the war were made after the death of Stalin. Monuments to the fallen wars were built after the death of Stalin.
    Because of Stalin’s obstinacy, only near Kiev did the USSR lose about the same amount of people as Beria rotted in his camps during his leadership of the NKVD.
    When I was in school, we were given the figure of the total losses of the USSR - 20 million.
    Let us dwell on this figure and will not be measured by anyone else, but we will honor the memory of heroes and innocently tortured in German camps.
    1. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 15 October 2012 10: 06
      +6
      The Fritz also had huge losses, especially in the STALINGRAD BATTLE and beyond.
      The German soldier in the first months of the war in RUSSIA-WALKS AROUND EUROPE.
      1. ism_ek
        ism_ek 15 October 2012 10: 29
        -4
        Quote: Leha e-mine
        The Fritz also had huge losses, especially in the STALINGRAD BATTLE.
        But not 4 million killed and 6 million wounded, as Comrade Stalin said.
        1. Lech e-mine
          Lech e-mine 15 October 2012 10: 37
          +8
          In the battle of RZHEV, the losses of the RED ARMY and the GERMAN TROOPS reached (think about) up to 8000 people a day — a blood bath for both us and the Germans.
          1. ism_ek
            ism_ek 15 October 2012 10: 58
            -7
            Quote: Leha e-mine
            In the battle of RZHEV, the losses of the RED ARMY and the GERMAN TROOPS reached (think about) up to 8000 people a day — a blood bath for both us and the Germans.

            What to think about .... You need to read "Cursed and Killed" by Astafiev, a participant in these events.

            Stalin's data cannot be considered a reliable source. If Stalin in the year 43 for propaganda reasons exceeded the losses of German troops in the Battle of Stalingrad by 10 times. What did he have to say after the war, oh sorry, I was mistaken, or did I lie to you in order to increase your fighting spirit?
            1. Brother Sarych
              Brother Sarych 15 October 2012 11: 23
              +6
              Still, Astafyev, if he doesn’t change his memory, was a driver in the rear behind the war, and was not in the trenches, and was completely moved by his old age, so you should not rely on his works ...
              1. ism_ek
                ism_ek 15 October 2012 11: 34
                +6
                Quote: Brother Sarich
                Still, Astafyev, if he does not change his memory, was at the rear a driver in the war

                Artillery is not a rear division.
                In 1943 he was awarded the medal "For Courage", for the fact that:
                In the battle of 20.10.43/XNUMX/XNUMX, the Red Armyman Astafiev V.P. four times corrected telephone communications with advanced NP. When performing the task, from a close bomb explosion, it was bombarded with earth. Burning with hatred of the enemy, comrade Astafyev continued to carry out the task under artillery and mortar fire, collected scraps of cable and re-restored telephone communications, ensuring uninterrupted communication with the infantry and its support by artillery fire.


                1. maxpa
                  maxpa 18 October 2012 07: 47
                  0
                  so who was he a signalman or an extras?
            2. rexby63
              rexby63 15 October 2012 19: 38
              +4
              Astafyev was in the funeral team to really assess the losses during the crossing of the Dnieper? Or at least a clerk at the headquarters of the division? No, he was a simple soldier-signalman on the front line, besides he was seriously wounded. How could he really appreciate the loss?
            3. Nagaibak
              Nagaibak 18 October 2012 20: 29
              +1
              As far as I know, the work you mentioned refers to the time of the "Battle for the Dnieper". And so of course it is convenient to classify our "Stalinist data" as incorrect, and the German ones as absolutely correct.
    2. Bigriver
      Bigriver 15 October 2012 17: 49
      +2
      About Kiev and Stalin - are you quoting movies?
      The Kiev boiler happened for reasons quite characteristic of the entire Red Army for that period of time. We could not monitor the rapidly developing operational environment and take measures. Simply put, overslept Kleist’s maneuver.
    3. Grenz
      Grenz 15 October 2012 23: 00
      +5
      ism_ek
      Yeah, the orders and medals of Suvorov, Nakhimov, Khmelnytsky, Alexander Nevsky did not appear in the war, and films about them were shot after Stalin's death.
      That's just how they appeared on the chest of the soldiers who were in the trenches. And about the blue handkerchief, of course, not from the movies they learned. This is a swamp volunteer who sang in his ear.
    4. Melchakov
      Melchakov 20 October 2012 17: 32
      +1
      ism_ek,
      Sorry, but I accidentally put you a plus request .
  11. MichaelVl
    MichaelVl 15 October 2012 10: 11
    +1
    Dear moderators, why deleted my Hello for dfdfd?
    1. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 15 October 2012 10: 54
      +7
      as German trucks turned on the highway and infantry in black uniforms jumped from them.

      - What the hell is this! Why in black? - without looking up from the binoculars, Vovk-Kurilekh (commander of the 280 artillery regiment) was perplexed by hearing. I counted up to about a thousand. The Nazis lined up in columns and moved along the road — into the forehead of our rifle units. When five hundred meters were left before us, we started to run. Vovk-Kurilekh gave a command - howitzer batteries opened fire. Each shell was cut by twenty people. But the black uniforms kept pushing .... Fifteen minutes were beaten from all the guns by the Nazis in black uniforms. The surviving Nazis rushed to run, knocking each other down. Pasha Bragin. Adjutant Kirsanova crawled to the dead - to the black uniforms. He returned and poured out a bunch of medals: “Get it!” From a satchel taken from a German There were medals for excellent shooting, there were number plates. Pasha grabbed and documents. Revealed - they turned out to be police books. Hamburg police units were flown here by air. They were told - we later learned about this from the prisoner - that the battles will be easy: they say, meet with unarmed partisans. Promises and honors have been promised. So they climbed drunk. And stumbled upon regular troops - on us "


      Alexander Lesin, poet, served in 146 art. divisions. Excerpt from the front-line diary. The described event occurred on November 17, 1943 in the area of ​​the town of Volkovo, Pskov Region, on a plot of 698 Art. shelf.
      1. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 15 October 2012 11: 25
        +1
        It seems like a fairy tale - also do not forget that it was FORBIDDEN to keep diaries at the front, so the presence of a diary was a good occasion to meet serious and very angry uncles ...
        1. Lech e-mine
          Lech e-mine 15 October 2012 11: 34
          +4
          Here Solzhenitsyn met.
      2. ism_ek
        ism_ek 15 October 2012 14: 04
        +3
        Quote: Leha e-mine
        Alexander Lesin, poet, served in 146 art. divisions.

        A typical article from a front-line newspaper in which Alexander Lesin worked. In the conditions of war it was necessary to write. Campaign materials do not need to be equated with reliable sources of information.
  12. apro
    apro 15 October 2012 11: 08
    +2
    One can talk about numbers endlessly as beneficial to him. This topic as a weapon of the information war strikes well makes the weak to doubt the strength of our people and the strength to defend our memory. The losses of the USSR are certainly higher but not catastrophic compared to the Germans, and when they talk about German losses at 2 mil, the Germans seem to be very cowards and not at all awkward, and if they really destroyed 12-16 mil Soviet soldiers, then who took Berlin. And if IVS Stalin pursued the same German policy towards the German population, then about Germany it would be possible- I would also forget the loss ratio would be in our favor. I consider the loss ratio 1-1.3 to be the most correct loss level of the USSR because the German army is even better equipped and organized.
    1. Lech e-mine
      Lech e-mine 15 October 2012 11: 37
      +12
      Still, the best witnesses of those years are photo documents-killed Fritz (STALINGRAD)
    2. ism_ek
      ism_ek 15 October 2012 13: 52
      0
      Quote: apro
      I consider the loss ratio 1-1.3 to be the most correct, a higher level of USSR losses because the German army is even better equipped and organized.
      for 44..45 years there really were such losses.
      The questions are then to the ratio of losses in 41..42 year.
      My relative participated in the battle only once. They were thrown to the aid of the surrounded Vlasov. There were two machine guns at the battalion with all the weapons. They said to take weapons on the battlefield. There really were a lot of him ...
      Vlasov’s army was not saved, people were lost ..... A relative remained a cripple.
      I do not understand why such facts should be hidden? Is this not a war story?
      1. Colonel
        Colonel 19 October 2012 22: 08
        +1
        You, or your relative, are lying.
        They were thrown to the aid of the surrounded Vlasov. There were two machine guns at the battalion with all the weapons.
  13. Brother Sarych
    Brother Sarych 15 October 2012 11: 17
    +3
    Again, a strange article, the author invents a problem for himself and refutes it ...
    Wrote and okay, let it calm down ...
    There were big losses, or rather huge, you won’t know the exact numbers anymore, I would also like to believe that millions of citizens of our country have not died in vain, but this is where great doubts arise!
    1. apro
      apro 15 October 2012 11: 24
      +5
      Quote: Brother Sarich
      that millions of citizens of our country have not perished in vain, but this is precisely where doubts arise more and more often!

      Do not doubt not in vain because now we are bad or good, this is another question, they who died believed in good.
      1. Brother Sarych
        Brother Sarych 15 October 2012 11: 53
        0
        Well, it turns out that almost everything that Hitler planned was realized with us, the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the fallen heroes ...
        1. apro
          apro 15 October 2012 12: 13
          +3
          The struggle is not over, it is always winning does not give the right to relax and defeat despair.
    2. karbofos
      karbofos 15 October 2012 15: 43
      0
      it is very likely that in vain. because many descendants spit in their graves. very bitter
  14. Oleg14774
    Oleg14774 15 October 2012 11: 34
    +4
    And who said that this is a real photo ?! Do you think when they hung the flag, waited for the photographer to climb ?! The flag was hung by two people under bullets, there was still a battle and the photographer was not there.
  15. Kars
    Kars 15 October 2012 11: 40
    +2
    100% of their own artillery (excellent heavy artillery). By mid-1943, the Red Army had a five-fold superiority in artillery compared with the German army, in mid-1944 - ten-fold, in 1945 - thirty-fold


    Someone thinks that against the background of losses, these figures look better? And how is it superiority calculated? The numbers are not correct, as for heavy artillery, they were generally inferior until the end of the war.

    99% of tanks (Soviet T-34 was recognized as the best tank of World War II).
    Total in the Soviet Union was released 112.472 tank and self-propelled guns.
    lend-lease
    Total 12505 tanks
    Total SU 1807
    Total 7179 armored personnel carriers

    I think the interest is not forgotten how to count?
    I don’t understand why to post such frankly false information, it spoils the attitude to the article instantly and makes ALL calculations dubious automatically.
    As for my attitude to loss figures - I already copied the article
    http://topwar.ru/11444-poteri-sssr-i-germanii-v-vov.html
  16. Oleg14774
    Oleg14774 15 October 2012 11: 41
    +3
    I read the commands and am amazed. If there are trolls here who are ready to vilify their country for a cup of amerovskoy GMO soup, then shaming them for not understanding it is simply unreasonable. These are the first traitors, but let them not think that they will live well. Enemies themselves hate traitors. The Germans were disgusting to traitors! And they used them as indecency. And if in this way they want to attract attention to themselves, then God offended them with attention and care. Poor they are! Arguing with them is stupid, because over a mug of cheap beer they will brag about how "suckers" are bred on a patriotic website. Not realizing that because of their illiteracy they are suckers!
    1. karbofos
      karbofos 15 October 2012 15: 47
      +1
      they should not be ashamed and with sticks they need to be beaten so that they break into their holes and howl in pain, so that they don’t write nasty things with broken fingers
  17. Alexander 1958
    Alexander 1958 15 October 2012 11: 57
    +3
    Good afternoon!
    In my opinion, the author is somewhat free to use statistics.
    ... since all the 'missing persons' essentially represent the same loss item as those killed, ..
    Well, why does he think they all died? It seems to me that a significant part of these missing people can be found in the list of prisoners, and if so, then the number of killed Germans is somewhat different. To overestimate the losses of the Germans is also not right, as well as to underestimate ...
    Alexander 1958
    1. mamba
      mamba 15 October 2012 16: 18
      +2
      Quote: Alexander 1958
      Well, why does he think they all died? I think a significant part of these missing can be found in the list of prisoners,

      My uncle, the elder brother of my father, volunteered for the front on July 2, 1941. He was then 18 years old. He fought as a private soldier in the reconnaissance of the 508th Infantry Regiment of the 174th Infantry Division and went missing according to official figures in October 1941, although letters from him stopped coming from August. October appeared in official documents by adding three months to the date of receipt of the last letter.
      His reconnaissance group did not return from the mission because of the front line. He either died or was captured during an exit from the encirclement in the Great Bow region or during the defense of Andreapol.
      I did not find him in the lists of the dead and prisoners of war, although I searched for a long time. Could not find his grave. Estimated place of his death: Polotsk-Velikie Luki district.
      1. Alexander 1958
        Alexander 1958 15 October 2012 16: 31
        +3
        For mamba
        Good afternoon!
        Eternal memory to the dead and thanks for their feat and sacrifice!
        Alexander 1958
    2. MakSim51ru
      MakSim51ru 18 October 2012 13: 48
      0
      Yes, yes, you are right, "horses, people mixed up in a bunch" the author absolutely does not make a difference between irrecoverable and general losses ...
  18. dimanf
    dimanf 15 October 2012 11: 58
    +7
    Maybe you should not react to any bullshit.
    This is our VICTORY !!!!!
    And no one will take it from us.
    Better let's help the veterans.
    And not only on VICTORY DAY.
  19. Strashila
    Strashila 15 October 2012 13: 05
    +4
    The author correctly noted that counting the losses is required throughout Europe ... and not to forget the million Soviet prisoners who were as a hawi at the front.
  20. 3 points from Ilyich
    3 points from Ilyich 15 October 2012 14: 48
    +6
    No matter how true the statistics were, it was scary to look at her, because millions. It may not be in the subject, but all the same comrades:
    On October 15, 1959, the head of the OUN (b) S. Bandera was liquidated by a member of the KGB of the USSR Stashinsky in Munich
  21. Egoza
    Egoza 15 October 2012 14: 54
    +7
    I think that the losses during the war and those voiced immediately after the war really varied. BUT, if the figure was reduced, it was only because I.V. Stalin was well aware that correlating the pre-war population census and the announced loss figures, one can easily conclude how weak the USSR was. And accordingly, the same USA or England could easily start a new war. However, they were afraid that there were still reserves, and therefore switched to the cold war of ideologies.
    As for current historians, it has become fashionable to know those who could be born but not born! I wonder how it counts? But - there is such a thing! Hence the constant increase in numbers.
    By the way, what about Bandera's "loss"?
    And with any loss - Glory to our army and the Soviet people for an unprecedented feat!
    1. MakSim51ru
      MakSim51ru 18 October 2012 13: 55
      0
      As for Bandera and others. In August of the 41st due to the overcrowding of the transit camps, the OKV command issues a directive on which local residents are released from captivity. At that time, they were residents of western Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic republics. Accordingly, all these people are listed in the military irretrievable losses of the Red Army
  22. biglow
    biglow 15 October 2012 14: 59
    +1
    Truth will ever win
  23. borisst64
    borisst64 15 October 2012 16: 14
    +4
    "Fighting France" losses

    From Carius memories of France:
    But on a nearby farm, they refused to give me anything without a written order from the local administration. Then I went to the city hall, but it was already closed there.
    I quickly filled out a document for the farmer with my own hand so that he could make a complaint based on it. A reprimand from the battalion commander was just as quick. If we had not left for the Eastern Front soon after, we would probably have been dragged to the [26] instances, opened a case about theft or something like that. After the war, I often had to think about it when I saw how easily the French occupation forces provided themselves with everything necessary at our expense.
    During this period, I had to take on my conscience a war crime - reprisal without trial. I was next in turn during the firing on the outskirts of the town, when a rooster from a nearby farm ran straight through the firing range. Most likely, an order was given during the firing to keep animals from peasant farms in pens. I just took the target when the cock was between me and the target.
    The commander shouted something, but it was already too late. The rooster made a few somersaults, and then turned into something hardly edible. The company commander strictly scolded me when an upset mistress of a rooster ran up, who had to say goodbye to her pet. Even the money could not reassure her, because the murdered, of course, was the best cock in the area.


    Can anyone imagine this in Russia.
    1. MakSim51ru
      MakSim51ru 18 October 2012 13: 56
      0
      Do you yourself believe that?
  24. Begemot
    Begemot 15 October 2012 16: 36
    +4
    Talking about some numbers is possible only with a large share of approximation. What records could we have in the first months of the war with us and in the last months of the war with the Germans, and these are periods of maximum losses, how to take into account the frozen and snow-covered Germans, Italians, Romanians and Hungarians near Stalingrad in 42 m, if by the time they thawed in the 43rd front was already near Kursk. How to take into account our losses near Rzhev, when, according to official figures, there shouldn’t be there in separate sections of the troops, and someone was even the most serious against the Germans. All this fortune-telling on coffee grounds, plus or minus two to three million. This is not serious. Eternal memory to the heroes who died on the fronts and in the rear, eternal glory to the living veterans, low bow to all who forged victory.
  25. newFeofan
    newFeofan 15 October 2012 16: 44
    +4
    Here, the author says about the objectivity of the estimates. Objectivity is always good, but not reaching the middle of his article, he writes:
    "So, for example, in one of the hospitals over 45 days of work, from July 1 to August 15, 1942, of the heroic Stalingrad, out of 13,6 thousand wounded received during this time, only 262 people died, i.e. 2% ...
    And then he gives general data on the losses in the armies of other participants. Well, if Mr. Author has such an idea of ​​objectivity, then he needs to write modern history textbooks. It will work out quite well.
    1. DIMS
      DIMS 15 October 2012 16: 53
      +3
      Objectively, in those days, Soviet military medicine was the best. The highest percentage of returned to service among the warring countries. Key performance indicator.
      The fact that the author writes about mortality is somewhat wrong.
      1. MakSim51ru
        MakSim51ru 18 October 2012 14: 02
        0
        They also knew a double-edged sword. It would be nice to see the nature of the injuries, the number of amputations and then draw conclusions. And especially to compare how many died on the paths of sanitation. As for mortality, the death rate from sepsis was higher by an order of magnitude in German hospitals.
  26. Soooq
    Soooq 15 October 2012 16: 46
    +3
    USSR losses of 27 million for 93 years, while 170 soldiers of the Red Army find a month. Of this total, 9.2 million war casualties, of which 2.9 died in captivity. The loss of Germany does not exist! No real German loss documents have been preserved. But if we take our calculations and the calculations of the countries of the Allies, the loss of Germany was 6.1 million, of which 5.2 on the eastern front. Plus the allies of Germany is another 1 million. It turns out 6,2 to 6,3. But whatever they say, real estimates of Germany’s losses do not exist.
    1. Pessimist
      Pessimist 20 October 2012 12: 10
      0
      Quote: SooQ
      But whatever they say, real estimates of Germany’s losses do not exist.

      Especially if you recall the bombing of Dresden by amers .... And the loss of population.
  27. wax
    wax 15 October 2012 17: 33
    0
    http://supernovum.ru/public/index.php?doc=134 - про 41-й
    http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/golovanov_ae/index.html - про летчиков дальней бомбаридировочной
  28. cool.ya-nikola
    cool.ya-nikola 15 October 2012 18: 36
    +5
    Sharing anger and indignation completely and completely, all who are not indifferent to the history of their Motherland, I would like to say (at the risk of bringing "thunder and lightning" on their heads) this is what they are about. I'm afraid that due to the lack of an official one, I emphasize - official the history of the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945, we are simply doomed to be in the position of the defenders! After all, look what happens, any dirty trick that decides that only she has the right to write and interpret her own vision of the past Great War, "hesitating nothing", sits down and starts sprinkling, this is her "vision" passing it off as the ultimate truth. And, instead of getting from the shelf, for example, volume 8 of the History of the Great Patriotic War, open it on page 467, (for example), get acquainted with the facts, and then, based on the facts read, say (or, maybe spit in the face right away!), you, what a scoundrel, write, because this was not, and could never be! If it really itches, write fiction (like "White Tiger"), but don't even think about history!
    And, my statement, has only one purpose: - well, how would we all over the world, to get through to the gentlemen of the historians! There is an Institute of Military Sciences in Russia under the direction of General of the Army Mr. Makhmud Akhmedovich Gareev, under whose leadership there are either 294 or 296 (those who wish can google) only candidates of sciences in the Moscow branch. And the aforementioned general had a conversation with the President of the Russian Federation, Mr. Putin (even in the last presidency of the latter), the essence of which was that it would be nice for us, Comrade General, to write a History of the Great Patriotic War, but it turns out inconvenient, all countries, one way or otherwise those who participated in the war wrote their own interpretation, but we, who endured the main burden, and paid dearly for the Victory, created such a scientific work. The general, as befits a military man, bravely answered "Yes!" And then, as they say, "You will laugh," but the general did not manage to bargain with the Ministry of Finance. On the 30 million requested by the general, the Ministry of Finance refused, after which the offended general (I think so), if he did not say, then at least thought, "Well, hell to you all, we will sit on bare salaries, but we will not write history!"
    Here is such a sad story, gentlemen! So, I'm afraid, any scribe will continue to write any "crap" (after all, talking about conscience, where the main motive is "loot", at least it's pointless!), But we, as much as we can, fight back and try to defend memory of ancestors! They honestly did their job, eternal Memory and Glory to them!
    Sorry for the verbosity, but it painfully boiled!
  29. valiant
    valiant 15 October 2012 20: 35
    -1
    Perhaps we can state that today the study of Lopukhovsky and Kavalerchik is the most serious and reasoned attempt to get closer to the truth about the Soviet military losses in 1941-1945. The most important alternative source remains processed after the removal (or fastening) of duplicate card files of the card file for irretrievable losses. File cabinets are stored in the Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in Podolsk, Moscow Region. According to registered card index data for 2008, the demographic losses of Soviet servicemen amounted to 14,6 million people (including 1,1 million officers) - and these are only those that are excluded from the lists, that is, enlisted servicemen. The assessment of dead servicemen who were not on the lists is a serious problem. Calculation of losses in two alternative ways gave the authors a figure of 14,5 million people. It's minimum. Estimates of losses of servicemen not listed may increase this figure, probably by another significant number. According to our estimates, up to 17–18 million people. The irretrievable losses of Germany and its various allies, including prisoners, amounted to 5,9 million people (demographic - less due to the return of prisoners to their homeland). Moreover, this figure includes approximately 250-300 thousand (minimum) Soviet citizens who performed military service and died on the side of the enemy. Estimating the total losses of the enemy by the Krivosheev collective (8,8 million) is nothing more than a fantasy.
    The famous Memorial electronic database (HBS) contains from 15,5 million to 16,9 million unique records of dead military personnel (1 record = 1 name). In total, the database has 28 million records, of which 10-15% are repetitions. The total number of unique cards about losses in the funds of various departmental archives, including, first of all, the Podolsk Archive of the Ministry of Defense, was 16,6 million. The volume of unique notices (“funerals”) about death at the hands of the former population of the USSR amounted to approximately 20-21 million units . Not 34,9 million people participated in the war (according to the official version), but 46,7 million. This is the most serious statement, since none of the researchers questioned the announced number of human resources used in military service in 1941–1945 years (34,9 million). To assess the losses, it is necessary to use materials and information about the losses of the members of the Komsomol, the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks, as well as information about the escheated cash deposits left after the death of the owners in the state ownership. A database of such deposits exists, but its materials are not used by anyone and are not involved in the study. The troop registration of the personnel of the Armed Forces of the USSR was badly delivered. In fact, no more than 44% of the personnel were registered. March replenishment was especially poorly taken into account. It is the unlimited trust in incorrect materials of military registration that explains the mistake of the Krivosheev collective.
    The irretrievable and demographic losses of the USSR Armed Forces range from 16,5 million to 20,5 million. The vast majority of the losses of the Soviet population in 1941-1945 are losses military personnelrather than the civilian population, as is still formally considered. The loss of Soviet troops, contrary to officialdom, is not comparable with the military losses of Germany and its allies, and outperform them in the range of 2,5-3,5 times.
    1. DIMS
      DIMS 15 October 2012 20: 53
      0
      Somewhere I already read it.
      It seems that this is not your opinion, but nevertheless, how do you think, washed your face with blood?
      1. valiant
        valiant 19 October 2012 19: 30
        +2
        Yes, this is an annotation to Lopukhovsky's book. It is difficult for me to judge about "washing with blood". But the losses are incomparably huge. And there could be less, if not for the miscalculations of the leadership and some generals.
        1. Pessimist
          Pessimist 20 October 2012 12: 24
          0
          Quote: valiant
          It is difficult for me to judge about "washing with blood". But the losses are incomparably huge. And there could be less, if not for the miscalculations of the leadership and some generals.

          Interesting! Western countries fought without miscalculations and huge losses: Poland, France, Norway, Belgium, Holland ... If the USSR fought like these countries, where would we all be, gentlemen ??? They have less losses, did it help them?
          1. valiant
            valiant 20 October 2012 22: 21
            +1
            Western countries fought without miscalculations and huge losses: Poland, France, Norway, Belgium, Holland ... If the USSR fought like these countries, where would we all be, gentlemen ??? They have less losses, did it help them?

            How is it that there were no miscalculations? Why then did they lose with the advantage in tanks, aircraft, artillery? Remember at least the Maginot Line, isn't this a miscalculation? And where do the huge losses come from? Countries, roughly speaking, with the Moscow region, but simply did not have time to lose much, given that in the beginning they drank together and sang songs in the so-called "Strange War". According to your logic, big losses help to win the war? ..
    2. Aleksys2
      Aleksys2 15 October 2012 21: 14
      -1
      Quote: valiant
      that to date, the study of Lopukhovsky and Kavalerchik is the most serious and reasoned attempt to approach the truth about the Soviet military losses in 1941-1945.

      Hmm, but what about:
      The study of the losses of the Soviet Union in the war actually began only in the late 1980s. with the advent of publicity. Prior to this, in 1946, Stalin announced that the USSR had lost 7 million people during the war years. Under Khrushchev, this number increased to "over 20 million." Only in 1988-1993 a team of military historians, led by Colonel General G. F. Krivosheev, conducted a comprehensive statistical study of archival documents and other materials containing information about human losses in the army and navy, border and internal troops of the NKVD. In this case, the results of the work of the General Staff commission on determining losses, headed by Army General S. M. Shtemenko (1966-1968) and a similar commission of the Ministry of Defense under the leadership of Army General M. A. Gareev (1988), were used. The team was also allowed to be declassified in the late 1980s. materials of the General Staff and the main headquarters of the branches of the Armed Forces, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the FSB, border troops and other archival institutions of the former USSR.
      The total number of casualties in the Great Patriotic War was first made public in rounded form (“almost 27 million people.”) At a solemn meeting of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR on May 8, 1990, dedicated to the 45th anniversary of the Victory of the Soviet Union in the Great Patriotic War. [5] In 1993, the results of the study were published in the book “The signature stamp removed. Losses of the USSR Armed Forces in wars, military operations and military conflicts: A Statistical Study, which was then translated into English. [6] In 2001, a reprint of the book “Russia and the USSR in the wars of the XNUMXth century. Military Losses: A Statistical Study. ”
      To determine the extent of human losses, this team used various methods, in particular:
      accounting and statistical, that is, by analyzing the available accounting documents (first of all, reports of losses of personnel of the Armed Forces of the USSR),
      the balance sheet, or the method of demographic balance, that is, by comparing the number and age structure of the population of the USSR at the beginning and end of the war.
    3. Pessimist
      Pessimist 20 October 2012 12: 19
      0
      Quote: valiant
      The troop registration of the personnel of the Armed Forces of the USSR was badly delivered. In fact, no more than 44% of the personnel were registered. March replenishment was especially poorly taken into account.

      This at a time when you did not know what to throw to the front? Did you serve in the army? Or were you also not taken into account and you easily "skewed"? The army, even the Red Army, is not a station square, where you cannot take everything into account. All data can be easily "pulled up" in one direction or another now. Rezun does it easily too!
      1. valiant
        valiant 20 October 2012 22: 29
        +2
        This at a time when you did not know what to throw to the front? Did you serve in the army? Or were you also not taken into account and you easily "skewed"? The army, even the Red Army, is not a station square, where you cannot take everything into account. All data can be easily "pulled up" in one direction or another now.

        It is foolish to compare what happened then and now. I did not take this data from the ceiling. This is statistics. There is such data in TsAMO.
  30. mox
    mox 15 October 2012 21: 57
    +1
    The author himself inflates all these myths against which he allegedly advocates.
    The article is slag.
  31. wax
    wax 15 October 2012 23: 41
    0
    Another reference about our artillery:
    http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/grabin/pre.html
  32. Magadan
    Magadan 16 October 2012 01: 30
    +3
    In my disputes with all sorts of detractors of the feat of our people, I act much easier. Many times he asked both ours and the Americans: "We beat Japan in 1939 at Halkin-Gol in a month. I'm not talking about 1945, and about their million-strong group in Manchuria. The question is: why the Americans, together with the British, could not defeat those whom did the Red Army beat in 4 month. Why even the atomic bomb did not help them and the Japanese asked for peace only after the defeat of their Manchurian group by Soviet troops? " One of our members of the forum brought up the idea that under Khalkin-Gol there was just a petty, meaningless skirmish. Well, there were 1 people from the Japanese side then. For example, in the largest battle in the American-Japanese War, Iwozumu Island had only 75000 Japanese versus 6000 Americans.
    There is only one conclusion - we fought badly or well, it is not for them to judge. They certainly did not even come close to showing such results of the war against the Germans as the Soviet Army. And if we fought so "badly", I wonder how they would have fought then if they had faced Reiz's army of 1941-1943. Although what to say, the example of France, shamefully, together with the British, merged their country in 1 month, while killing fewer Germans than they lost in the first days of the war in the USSR.
    1. konslion
      konslion 20 October 2012 19: 29
      +1
      1. Well, why do Russians deny the right to other nations for courage, huh?
      Ah was the Great Patriotic War and we saved the world! The rest of them were lying in the straw? The losses of the German army are also the losses in the year 40 in the war with England. (For some reason, this is considered Hitler’s easy walk. But it wasn’t all right) These are the losses with the opening of a second front.
      2. I am not going to belittle the dignity of the Russian soldier, but there were tens and even hundreds of thousands of entourage at the beginning of the war! That is, they did not know how to fight. And they were not ready. Ah yes, a surprise attack. So it only confirms that they were not able to fight (and intelligence is also part of the war).
      3. Yes, they washed themselves with blood, but learned to fight by the fall of 41. It seems to me the misfortune of the Russian army in complete disregard for the soldier. Only Suvorov knew how to fight with his mind. About the cruelty and inhumanity of Zhukov, and I know others firsthand My grandfathers also fought!
      4 And the last! What are we still celebrating? Yes there was! Yes, a great victory without a doubt. But this victory of our great-grandfathers and grandfathers. For us, this should be a day of mourning for the dead heroes, and on May 9 we will ride under the ball with a can of beer in hand on the main squares of cities. It’s hard to imagine more humiliation for St. George’s ribbon than hanging out in a dirty scrap on a car antenna.
  33. Konrad
    Konrad 16 October 2012 06: 59
    +3
    It's not clear what is the point of minimizing our losses? The whole earth is crammed with the bones of our soldiers who gave their lives to stop fascism. Commercials can agree that the war was "in foreign territory and little blood."
  34. Sasha 19871987
    Sasha 19871987 16 October 2012 07: 05
    +1
    yes, that’s what our children need to read ... the author has a hundred points for the article ...
  35. Magadan
    Magadan 16 October 2012 07: 12
    +4
    Quote: Konrad
    It is not clear what is the point of downplaying our losses?

    And I don’t understand this, so no one downplayed them. I personally remember that ours, on the contrary, always said how much we lost people in the war against fascism. Just then, in the 80s, no one doubted that it was the USSR that gouged the Germans, that there was help from the West, of course, but they influenced by 2-3 percent the entire outcome of the war.
  36. understudy
    understudy 16 October 2012 10: 22
    +1
    If the decrease in the number of casualties can still be somehow justified ... raising morale, concealing the miscalculations of the command ... Then how can the deliberate exaggeration of losses be explained ??? Is it true? And if this is an elementary counter-propaganda aimed at disintegrating troops, population, individual citizens? It's like a groundless statement about our eternal drunkenness. Why is this done? And so that even from studying the simplest school textbooks, we begin to feel flawed and incapable of anything without the "good" help of recognized democracies.

    As a matter of fact, if such "faithful Leninists" as Volkogonov and other Yakovlevs were attached to history in our country, then one should not expect the truth from them. They lied when they made their way to the heights of power, they also lied when they denigrated the same power. Maggots, the real maggots.
  37. crambol
    crambol 16 October 2012 11: 02
    +3
    All the manipulations with the loss figures come down to one thing - why didn't these damned Russians die? In any case, we will remain to blame. Our losses are few, which means we fought like animals against unhappy Europe. A lot of our losses, then we are animals that do not have the instinct of self-preservation.
    Yes, all of you be damned with your calculations! Our fathers and grandfathers broke the ridge of fascism, grind the strongest army. And this is the most important thing!
  38. Akuzenka
    Akuzenka 16 October 2012 11: 04
    +2
    How already got all sorts of wise men, having read pathos articles! Make friends with arithmetic, liberals! And use your head more often - think to her, and do not wring your hands. Your beloved Solzhenitsyn (speaking last name) described you very well - the main character: a deserter who escaped from the front (One day by Ivan Denisovich). So, what good will he say about the country devoted to them ..... nothing. Here is the answer.
    1. xan
      xan 16 October 2012 13: 25
      +3
      Solzhenitsyn is not a scoundrel, that's for sure. I read "In August 14th", who despises Russia and Russians could not write like that. And at the end of his life he watered Western democracy, and that says a lot.
  39. maxiv1979
    maxiv1979 16 October 2012 13: 45
    +4
    usual statistics, I think the Germans from small losses of children in the 45th and the elderly sent to the front, to see the men hiding in the cellars and ate beer with a steering wheel) now look at the mob potential of 80 million Germany and you can give me any numbers as an example, you can draw any piece of paper and to assure. I’ll personally draw you a piece of paper)), but where are you going to get German children and retirees 60+ years old (especially on the western front)? So both countries suffered huge losses and the German population is now 82 million (5-7 million of them are emigrants) But before the war? right, the whole baby boom of 50-60 years barely made up for the loss in the war (didn’t even make up for it all the same)

    and about the clock in my hand, I would also wear 2, wear 3, and take it off to my friends by the clock, this is a trophy. For the bestiality that the Germans did on our territory, I would not be limited to hours. It is easy for the Professor, next to a warm toilet, to denounce in the quiet of the study. All trophies were always taken, by Americans, French, Germans and ours, not holier than the pope and the patriarch)
  40. zavesa01
    zavesa01 16 October 2012 13: 50
    +2
    Akuzenka
    Totally agree with you. He also fled to the states in my opinion.
    "There will be no joy to those who betray their fatherland, for their gods and their ancestors will be cursed."
    That barks from there.
  41. alex popov
    alex popov 16 October 2012 15: 29
    +2
    Interesting article. Not in numbers. Approach. Yet they are well aware that people believe what they are ready to believe. And it is difficult to convince a person with his already established opinion, based on "conditional values". So this "willingness to believe" that the United States won the war, our soldiers are cowards, and commanders are traitors and ignoramuses, Stalin the bloody maniac was brought up in the 80-90s and is brought up in new generations not with numbers of losses and not fake statistics. Look, the "superiority" of the West for the modern average Russian person materializes from commercials from all sides, wherever you go. If earlier, when there was a strong counter-propaganda from the state, people of course "knew" that "conventionally fanta" tasted better than "conventionally tarragon", but at the same time they did not doubt that the Soviet soldier-Soldier was the Winner, and that if "Motherland orders", then and Berlin and Paris will again remember the Russian language directly from the speakers, but now, the "number of forfeits" has increased to infinity, and the state, for its part, has been eliminated and is not even engaged in counter-propaganda. But as long as the veterans of the Second World War are alive, as long as their children are alive, who personally communicated with them, listened to their stories about the war, were proud of their orders and medals, as long as their grandchildren, who received the knowledge of the war from their grandfathers and fathers, are still not lost. Can't the state do it or doesn't want to? We cannot take this away from fathers and mothers. And in spite of the Hollywood "Rines" and "bastards." That the USSR, as a state, carried on its shoulders all the horrors of war, making the world MUCH cleaner and brighter, that millions of people of different "non-Aryan nations" owe their lives to the "poor Russians", and that our grandfathers and great-grandfathers fought and won, and did not flee, and corpses filled up. We can give this knowledge and this pride to our children. And then the glossy glamorous "conditional superiority" of the Western world will not be able to break the psyche of the new generation. Something like this, sorry for the little confusion.
    1. Region65
      Region65 18 October 2012 18: 38
      +1
      the most annoying thing is that people who are inclined to rot Russia and people will continue to lie more easily because the last veterans who carry the truth and can still tell it to their grandson die ... another couple of years and the last veteran will not remain, here then the seagulls and the crow will fly off and begin to rewrite the story even more.
  42. mega_jeka
    mega_jeka 16 October 2012 17: 50
    0
    nickname 1 and 2,
    Quote: nick 1 and 2
    Putin greatly corrected the situation received from EBN! We would rally!

    Yes, yes ... straightened ... !!! out of 24 defense enterprises, 000 remained. That's right.
    That alcoholic did not drink, so it ruined.
    For the rest, I agree
    1. nickname 1 and 2
      nickname 1 and 2 16 October 2012 21: 28
      +1
      mega_jeka,

      According to the materials of the Federal State Statistics Service, as of January 1, 2007, there were 1095 cities in Russia. And now there are 1099 cities.


      That's it, dear, lie more sophisticated !!! tongue
  43. Pancho
    Pancho 16 October 2012 23: 06
    +1
    "Fresh, posthumously, winner of the Solzhenitsyn Prize V. Astafiev" - Author! Do you think. When do you give out such pearls? Who are you and who is HE ?!
  44. SMUTIAN
    SMUTIAN 17 October 2012 19: 14
    0
    A sober look at things.
  45. Region65
    Region65 18 October 2012 18: 35
    0
    good article and Russophobes suck aside. fellow
  46. bubla5
    bubla5 18 October 2012 20: 00
    +1
    It’s just as if the war is going on, but it goes for the minds and worldview of our present and future children, and how we feel or sit idly by depends on how the history of the Second World War and the whole history of Russia will be reported to the next generation
  47. Slevinst
    Slevinst 19 October 2012 00: 08
    +1
    we will never know the exact losses and we need to put up with it, it is enough to believe that our ancestors fought with dignity and the words of our enemies and "allies" confirm this. my grandfather was a scout and lived with a splinter in a lung for 85 years. here is an example of fortitude and lust for life. and when, after the war, he was told that it would be better if we lost and lived better, he kicked this man out into the street with the frame, and I understand him. all this I mean that by the example of my grandfather you can imagine what most of our soldiers were like. he also said who was afraid and sprinkled himself before the battle, that is usually the first and died. maybe it's for the best that the bullet found a son and not a warrior
  48. AIR ZNAK
    AIR ZNAK 19 October 2012 19: 15
    +1
    We argue for the numbers. We’re sorting the photos. The main thing is WE WIN. Yes, the price of Victory is big. What it is And there can be no exact numbers .. At that time there was no exact accounting for anyone .. But to prevent this from happening again, depends on us. The adversary should know that our army is not weak and the majority of the people will not allow themselves to be captivated. And the basis of strategic deterrence is not only the nuclear triad, but also the spirit of the people. And we know our losses, we remember, we grieve.
    1. konslion
      konslion 20 October 2012 19: 36
      0
      Yes, not We won! Who did you defeat? Chechnya and Georgia, each of which in size as the middle region of Russia! So say it. Thanks, grandfathers! You won!
  49. grandfather
    grandfather 19 October 2012 23: 56
    0
    the soldiers of the red army are respected and respected for centuries, and the Russian losses are more from the fact that the Nazis drowned and killed everything that moves in their path.
    NATO tactics of war does not resemble?
    It's a shame that on the site of litter morons who do not know respect for their ancestors a lot.
  50. konslion
    konslion 20 October 2012 19: 25
    0
    1. Well, why do Russians deny the right to other nations for courage, huh?
    Ah was the Great Patriotic War and we saved the world! The rest of them were lying in the straw? The losses of the German army are also the losses in the year 40 in the war with England. (For some reason, this is considered Hitler’s easy walk. But it wasn’t all right) These are the losses with the opening of a second front.
    2. I am not going to belittle the dignity of the Russian soldier, but there were tens and even hundreds of thousands of entourage at the beginning of the war! That is, they did not know how to fight. And they were not ready. Ah yes, a surprise attack. So it only confirms that they were not able to fight (and intelligence is also part of the war).
    3. Yes, they washed themselves with blood, but learned to fight by the fall of 41. It seems to me the misfortune of the Russian army in complete disregard for the soldier. Only Suvorov knew how to fight with his mind. About the cruelty and inhumanity of Zhukov, and I know others firsthand My grandfathers also fought!
    4 And the last! What are we still celebrating? Yes there was! Yes, a great victory without a doubt. But this victory of our great-grandfathers and grandfathers. For us, this should be a day of mourning for the dead heroes, and on May 9 we will ride under the ball with a can of beer in hand on the main squares of cities. It’s hard to imagine more humiliation for St. George’s ribbon than hanging out in a dirty scrap on a car antenna.
    1. FREGATENKAPITAN
      FREGATENKAPITAN 20 October 2012 20: 15
      +2
      Ah was the Great Patriotic War and we saved the world! The rest of them were lying in the straw? The losses of the German army are the losses in the year 40 in the war with England. (For some reason, this is considered Hitler’s easy walk. But it was not so)........... oh my God, study history. although I would like to use Western sources .....
      The Germans shoved the British into the sea so much that they were afraid until the 44th year of poking ..........................
      We don’t refuse anyone courage - just for those brave wars such as Private Rain they forget who really made a decisive contribution to the Victory! (you can read Churchill ... these are his words)

      And we will celebrate the Great Victory Day! And thank God that our rulers did not ruin the holiday and found at least something so that the youth would finally remember that we are a Great people, and we have something to be proud of !!!

      Whoever doesn’t like can read May 9 under the covers of Mine Kampf!