Military Review

The magic of numbers. How many APU vehicles were destroyed

290

The numbers of destroyed Ukrainian equipment and Ukrainian aircraft are growing day by day, and have already significantly exceeded the number of weapons that the Armed Forces of Ukraine had in stock at the time of the start of the military operation in Ukraine. Let's try to figure out where these numbers come from, and how much equipment has really been destroyed since the start of the NWO.


At a briefing by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation on July 15, General Igor Konashenkov said on the destruction of 253 aircraft, 137 helicopters, 1 UAVs, 543 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 746 MLRS, 3 field artillery pieces and mortars. Let's compare these figures with what Ukraine had at the time the military operation began.

According to official data from the same Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, at the time of the military operation, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had 152 aircraft, 149 helicopters, 36 Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, 2 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 416 MLRS, 535 field artillery pieces and mortars.

That is, it turns out that at this time, the RF Armed Forces have not only destroyed all the weapons available to Ukraine at the time of the start of the NMD, but also a huge amount of Western weapons. Then why does Ukraine still have aviation, Soviet MLRS and Soviet tanks, a large number of UAVs?

Ukrainian aviation is completely destroyed?


Let's start with aviation.

Readers, I believe, know about the statement of Igor Konashenkov on March 6 that “practically all combat aviation of the Kyiv regime has been destroyed”. At the same time, the fact that Ukrainian planes still continue to fly in the sky of Ukraine is a well-known fact. "Yes, how many are there?" you ask skeptically. This, except for the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense, no one knows, but we see that the planes are making sorties, for example, trying to intercept Russian cruise missiles. While, following the figures of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation about 253 downed aircraft, it turns out that they should not be in the sky of Ukraine.

Comparing the numbers “was” and “destroyed”, the question arises: where did Ukraine get another 101 aircraft from? Of course, the first thing that can be assumed in this case is that Western countries delivered aircraft to Ukraine. However, apart from News There is no official information about the fact that the West handed over to Ukraine a certain number of dismantled Su-25 aircraft.

My colleague in his article "Ukrainian Air Force: phoenixes from the ashes or something else?”, written back in early June, suggested that Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria could supply about 40 aircraft to Kyiv. The Ukrainians could repair something from the number of decommissioned aircraft. And he noted that in addition to 115 aircraft (according to his information, this is how many serviceable aircraft the Armed Forces of Ukraine had at the time of the start of the SVO), another hundred could be added.

Despite the fact that the number 100 looks, in my opinion, overpriced, we add. It turns out 215 aircraft. While, according to the Ministry of Defense, 253 were shot down, and at the same time, the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not run out of them.

The answer to the question of where this figure came from and what this figure is based on hangs in the air.

The same is true with downed drones. At the moment, according to Konashenkov, 1 drones have been shot down in Ukraine (a very impressive figure, you will agree), including about a hundred Bayraktars. At the same time, at the time of the start of the SVO, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had 543 UAVs of this type. Kyiv received about 36 more devices from Turkey after the start of the military operation. To this we can add another dozen drones of this type, purchased from Turkey by third countries and transferred to Ukraine.

It turns out that the RF Armed Forces shot down all the Bayraktars that the Armed Forces of Ukraine had. However, the Ukrainian military continues to use Bayraktars in the combat zone.

The Armed Forces of Ukraine have no tanks and armored vehicles left?


There are also questions about the number of destroyed armored vehicles - according to the Ministry of Defense, 4 tanks and armored vehicles were destroyed out of 060 available at the beginning of the NMD. Where does such a large number come from? Let's figure it out.

How many vehicles did the Armed Forces of Ukraine receive from Western "partners"? From the data of the Kiel Institute of the World Economy, which cover the period from January 24 to June 7, as well as from official statements by Western officials, it follows that since the beginning of the year, the Armed Forces of Ukraine received 252 Soviet-type tanks, 40 tanks manufactured by NATO countries (promised for delivery), up to 395 armored vehicles, 147 units of other armored vehicles. The total is 834 tanks and armored vehicles.

In July, Kyiv probably received some more pieces of equipment. If we divide the figure 834 by 4 months of the SVO, it turns out that Ukraine receives about 208 pieces of equipment per month. Let's add this figure to 834, we get 1. This is the total number of tanks and armored vehicles received by Kyiv from Western countries. Let's add this figure to 042, we get 2. With the data of the Ministry of Defense about 416 tanks and armored vehicles destroyed.

Thus, it turns out that all Ukrainian heavy equipment has been destroyed (even “with a margin”), and the Armed Forces of Ukraine cannot continue hostilities. In reality, however, we see a completely different picture.

It is rather difficult to answer the question of how much heavy equipment the Armed Forces of Ukraine have actually lost since February 24, if we disregard the figures of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. Some portals that count the destroyed equipment in the military conflict in Ukraine estimate the loss of Ukrainian equipment (tanks and armored vehicles) at 1 units, but it is difficult to say how reliable these data are.

About information policy (instead of conclusions)


We do not know what methods the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation uses when counting the destroyed military equipment and combat aircraft of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. However, these methods raise serious questions regarding the reliability of the announced figures. If the numbers on the number of weapons destroyed, given by General Konashenkov, corresponded to reality, then the Ukrainian army should no longer exist as such.

In general, there are certain questions about information policy. Giving data on the amount of destroyed equipment that is not entirely true, the press service of the Moscow Region, first of all, shoots itself in the foot, because it does not present itself in the best light. While many Russians tend to take Konashenkov's words for granted, Western partners do not. Western intelligence (the same MI-6) is well aware of the real state of affairs, both in the Armed Forces of Ukraine and in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, so it is difficult to deceive them in such a simple way.

Engaging in capping, voicing close to fantastic numbers of destroyed equipment and weapons of the enemy, according to the principle voiced by the legendary General Alexander Suvorov “write more, why spare their busurman!”, It seems to be an irresponsible decision in the current situation. It does a lot of harm, but little benefit.
Author:
290 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. military_cat
    military_cat 21 July 2022 16: 03
    +35
    While many Russians tend to take Konashenkov's words for granted, Western partners do not.
    This is how it is done for the people. The government decided it would be best for itself to keep him in the dark. And what is the point of making reports for Western partners - in principle, it is not very clear, they will still rely on their intelligence.
    1. withoutreverse
      withoutreverse 21 July 2022 16: 16
      +5
      Prmnyu in both Chechen companies .. on TV every day they killed regimental commanders. According to my calculation, they should have been killed there .. 2 divisions of field commanders.
      1. nik-mazur
        nik-mazur 21 July 2022 16: 38
        +13
        Quote: withoutreverse
        By my count...
        One division is from ten to twenty thousand people. So you counted from twenty to forty thousand field commanders.
        There is one of three things: either you count very badly, or you lie well, or both at the same time ...
        1. fa2998
          fa2998 21 July 2022 20: 10
          +20
          Quote from: nik-mazur
          There is one of three things: either you count very badly, or you lie well, or both at the same time ...

          Well, the man screwed up. But what does Konashenkov do? This is an official. In a couple of months, he will announce that there are so many armored vehicles and aviation in Europe. He will soon receive a colonel general for such "works". what request hi
          1. Civil
            Civil 22 July 2022 07: 38
            +2
            Kyiv received about 50 more devices from Turkey after the start of the military operation.

            "Friend" Rajap is still that "friend". But because of the Straits, you have to bow.
            seems to be an irresponsible decision in the current situation. It does a lot of harm, but little benefit.

            Konashenkov would have answered - "But what?"
          2. nik-mazur
            nik-mazur 23 July 2022 06: 34
            -2
            Quote: fa2998
            But what does Konashenkov do?
            What is assigned is what it does. Or do you think that he carries a gag on his own initiative?
            In general, the military, in principle, are not required to report to any civilian about their actions, inactions, successes, losses, plans and intentions. And if the Ministry of Defense instructed its representative to somehow inform the public, then this is solely out of indulgence for idle curiosity. Those who need it get acquainted with top secret data in accordance with the clearance, and the opinion of those who do not need it is monopenisual to the Ministry of Defense - this does not affect the fighting in any way ...
          3. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 23 July 2022 12: 03
            +4
            This is one of the biggest problems of the Russian army.
            Subordinates report to their commanders
            real numbers, but what are those want to hear.
            For which they receive promotions and awards.
            And so - to the very top vertically.
            And the Kremlin gets a completely distorted picture
            happening at the front.
            And since there is no Internet there (at the very top - so as not to be "hacked"), and honest advisers were fired for honesty a long time ago, then inflated numbers
            are taken as facts, and on their basis are given
            orders down to the front.
            1. nik-mazur
              nik-mazur 23 July 2022 17: 38
              +1
              Quote: voyaka uh
              Subordinates report to their commanders
              real numbers, but what they want to hear ...
              Don't talk nonsense. Such problems exist in absolutely any army (suffice it to recall the gigantic personal accounts of German tank and aviation aces). That is why in any army there are parallel-cross methods of checking information. But for couch experts, this is too complicated - they need explanations that are primitive, like a cow's moo, understandable to any pioneer and pensioner.
            2. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 24 July 2022 23: 00
              +2
              Quote: voyaka uh

              Subordinates report to their commanders
              real numbers, but what they want to hear.

              I doubt it though. I will not say, but it seems to me that for every tank, armored personnel carrier and other military equipment, such as an airplane, helicopter, etc., there is a price list for bonuses. And in order to receive this award, it is necessary to present evidence. Therefore, I believe that the army knows exactly, within reasonable limits, how much, what and where specifically ... And the numbers announced by Konashenkov are for "jackets"
              I'm not sure that Konashenko is doing the right thing by giving a dumb figure.
        2. Serg4545
          Serg4545 23 July 2022 05: 41
          +3
          If the author had not sought to “catch” the Ministry of Defense in a lie, then he would have easily found an explanation for the inconsistencies.

          Quote from: nik-mazur
          Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria could supply about 40 aircraft to Kyiv. The Ukrainians could repair something from the number of decommissioned aircraft. And he noted that in addition to 115 aircraft (according to his information, this is how many serviceable aircraft the Armed Forces of Ukraine had at the time of the start of the SVO), another hundred could be added.

          Despite the fact that the number 100 looks, in my opinion, overpriced, we add. It turns out 215 aircraft. While, according to the Ministry of Defense, 253 were shot down, and at the same time, the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not run out of them.


          And that Soviet aircraft can only be obtained in Eastern European countries!?
          It is impossible to buy in the Middle East, Africa, Asia, in the former republics of the Union?
          In addition, the author forgets about a simple way to get combat aircraft. We take, for example, a training aircraft (such as L-39 or another), hang blocks of nurses or bombs on it, and here you have a combat aircraft. Having destroyed which our Defense Ministry quite legally puts a tick on itself: a combat aircraft has been destroyed.
          Using the methods described above, Ukraine may well receive several hundred more combat aircraft. And they will be shot down/destroyed on the ground.

          Quote from: nik-mazur
          Let's add this figure to 2, we get 416. With the data of the Ministry of Defense about 3 tanks and armored vehicles destroyed.

          Thus, it turns out that all Ukrainian heavy equipment has been destroyed (even “with a margin”), and the Armed Forces of Ukraine cannot continue hostilities. In reality, however, we see a completely different picture.


          Well, with tanks and armored vehicles, in general, everything is simple.
          After the collapse of the Union, Ukraine got a huge fleet of tanks. Most of which was mothballed and therefore not included in the Armed Forces of Ukraine. With the outbreak of hostilities, this equipment began to hastily be restored, take part in hostilities and be destroyed. This is the only way Ukraine can get several thousand tanks. And armored vehicles can generally be riveted in any garage. Sheathed the truck with sheet steel (how many such shushpanzers have we seen!) And the resulting unit, in case of destruction, passes like an armored car!
          In general, the statistics of our MO are quite adequate.
        3. stankow
          stankow 23 July 2022 14: 19
          0
          The fourth is a great illustration of where the "number" comes from laughing
        4. boar
          boar 24 July 2022 22: 00
          -2
          No, he’s not lying, according to reports from our informed bodies, all the militants in the Caucasus were destroyed several times. One Basayev was liquidated many times. And my friends said that they received the strictest order from the top leadership not to stop the Chechen column, and then they learned that through their bloc once Basayev drove by. However, I was not there, for which I bought for that and sold it.
          1. Kawado
            Kawado 28 July 2022 16: 01
            0
            The Chechen campaign took place in completely different times and in almost a completely different country and, of course, in different realities.
      2. AUL
        AUL 21 July 2022 16: 44
        +28
        This NWO was conceived as a small quick victorious war (we will not talk about the goals of this idea). It did not work out quickly, it remains to report only on stunning victories.
        1. antivirus
          antivirus 21 July 2022 19: 53
          0
          It's good that there is no tsushima ...

          Already a feat...
          1. Blackmokona
            Blackmokona 21 July 2022 20: 51
            +16
            Beyond Tsushima Cruiser Moscow
            1. antivirus
              antivirus 22 July 2022 02: 14
              -7
              Brodino.
              .
              .....
              ..... Chf is alive.
              2nd squadron all - went out
            2. Foundling
              Foundling 22 July 2022 13: 09
              +3
              If only a cruiser. The entire fleet was called into question
        2. Lionnvrsk
          Lionnvrsk 22 July 2022 06: 22
          +2
          Well, it's about the same as if you hit the 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Repair Group in Davis-Montan with something very serious, then you can, almost without deviating from the truth, say that about 4200 aircraft of an exceptional nation were destroyed with one blow. yes
      3. Alex Kron
        Alex Kron 21 July 2022 17: 36
        +7
        They all considered themselves field commanders there. True, you promoted them to the regimental.
        1. AdAstra
          AdAstra 21 July 2022 19: 37
          -3
          The man just has a typo.
      4. Iris
        Iris 21 July 2022 18: 39
        +7
        Yes, they also talked about gangs of 5000 people.
    2. Andrey Moskvin
      Andrey Moskvin 21 July 2022 16: 38
      +10
      In the age of the internet, it's hard to keep people in the dark. Many even flaunt the complete denial of TV.
      1. military_cat
        military_cat 21 July 2022 16: 58
        +21
        "Many" is not all, and not even the bulk. And the bulk follows the path of least resistance and the greatest internal comfort. And it’s easier for her to watch official reports, it’s more comfortable to hear about the destruction of the enemy for the second time.
        1. Andrey Moskvin
          Andrey Moskvin 21 July 2022 17: 24
          +2
          Maybe so, but you have to turn your head off. However, I judge for myself. And where did you get the data about the bulk? winked
          1. military_cat
            military_cat 22 July 2022 09: 26
            +2
            Quote: Andrey Moskvin
            And where did you get the data about the bulk? winked

            A good question for a short lecture, or maybe even for a short series of lectures. If you go through only the keywords, then there will be such terms as "confirmation bias", "the effect of joining the majority", "the effect of primacy", "the effect of the illusion of truth (information cascade)", "underestimation of inaction" and so on, there is more a lot of.
            1. Andrey Moskvin
              Andrey Moskvin 22 July 2022 15: 54
              0
              Thank you, I understand the direction of thought. hi
        2. antivirus
          antivirus 21 July 2022 19: 56
          -1
          Does that mean we have to go through the third round?
          Lieutenants need stars because of the double quota for tanks and aircraft.
          Every lieutenant wants to wear the general's stripes.
          How will Konoshenkov (and Shoigu) be checked?
      2. Alex Kron
        Alex Kron 21 July 2022 20: 47
        +2
        And in vain. It is necessary to receive a variety of information and turn on the head.
    3. ammunition
      ammunition 21 July 2022 16: 56
      +18
      Quote: military_cat
      This is how it is done for the people. The government decided it would be best for itself to keep him in the dark.

      That is - "hang noodles on the ears" in kilograms.
      It is this (lies .. and deliberate lies) that destroys the confidence that "our cause is right." sad And even if people like Mikheev, whom he trusted before the SVO, are noticed in conscious .. um .. inaccuracies and juggling, a certain melancholy rolls over.
      Well, it does not happen that high and good goals are achieved with the help of lies.
      1. Snail N9
        Snail N9 21 July 2022 17: 41
        +10
        "Write more ... Why feel sorry for them, adversaries
        ..." - they say this is the answer of A.V. Suvorov to the scribe's question, how much to write beaten Turks near Izmail ....
        1. ammunition
          ammunition 21 July 2022 17: 57
          +16
          Quote: Snail N9
          "Write more ... Why feel sorry for them, adversaries
          ..." - they say this is the answer of A.V. Suvorov

          laughing Suvorov wrote the report after the full and final victory.
          there is a difference ?
        2. Kronos
          Kronos 21 July 2022 17: 59
          +22
          Only Suvorov won real brilliant victories, and not just wrote more enemies.
        3. Mikhail Zhikharev
          Mikhail Zhikharev 21 July 2022 19: 18
          0
          For incorrect data, the "scribe", as you write, must be a scribe!
      2. bayard
        bayard 21 July 2022 18: 09
        -12
        Quote: ammunition
        It is this (lies .. and deliberate lies) that destroys the confidence that "our cause is right."

        I read amazing things with my stupidity in this article. Without knowing the author it is difficult to judge his outlook, competence and conscientiousness.
        A good conscience is important.
        And this is not at all in defense of the stupid Konashenkov ... who is really stupid. I'm talking about the analysis of the figures given by the author.
        Let's take planes.
        As you know, after the collapse of the USSR, Krajina-U got the aviation of the THREE best military districts of the Soviet Army. And there were a lot of planes. Including new types.
        During the years of independence, most of the air fleet was decommissioned, sold, and exhausted.
        But these decommissioned aircraft themselves remained - in sumps, often right at the airfields.
        These old hulls of decommissioned aircraft were put up by the Sumerians on the eve of our "sudden attack". And all serviceable and combat-ready were taken out from under the blow. To alternate airfields and abroad. So a bunch of destroyed aircraft at airfields in the early days, these are just the old decommissioned hulls.
        Remember the old Soviet film "Restless Economy"?
        This is how they played with us. And Konashenkov counted.
        In addition, Soviet-made aircraft supplies from the USA and Eastern Europe have been going on for a long time. And they are also destroyed. Soon these sources of junk will dry up, and we are waiting for news about American F-15s, F-16s, Mirage-2000s and other Eurofighters being shot down over the aircraft.
        You pay attention to something else - so much equipment was killed, and the losses of the enemy are called ... just ridiculous, something like 50 - 70 thousand.
        Do you believe that?
        Or were there no crews in that technique?
        Or is so much ammunition flying into the poor world?
        No - IDEOLOGICAL EXPECTABILITY. In order not to injure the public with the huge losses of the army of the fraternal people (without quotes).
        It’s the same with other equipment - all the Varsovians were shaken out for the supply of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, plus with the total mass of NATO equipment. That's where it all burns.
        But Konashenkov is stupid and cannot explain clearly, briefly and clearly.
        1. Egoza
          Egoza 21 July 2022 18: 26
          +9
          Quote: bayard
          And there were a lot of planes. Including new types.
          During the years of independence, most of the air fleet was decommissioned, sold, and exhausted.

          Quite right. Moreover, in order to "put the plane on the wing" there were simply not enough spare parts. They repaired it when the need arose. Perhaps they were removed from the decommissioned ones, if suitable. But there were a LOT of planes.
          But Konashenkov is stupid and cannot explain clearly, briefly and clearly

          I would not talk like that about a person, he reads out what he was given. Maybe he "behind the scenes" himself spits on this piece of paper, but is forced to read what they gave ..
          1. bayard
            bayard 21 July 2022 19: 27
            +5
            Quote: Egoza
            Maybe he "behind the scenes" himself spits on this piece of paper, but is forced to read what they gave ..

            He is the head of the press service and prepares these papers himself, according to the data provided to him by the General Staff. However, I have the least complaints about him.
          2. NIKN
            NIKN 22 July 2022 11: 08
            +5
            Quote: Egoza
            I wouldn't talk about a person like that

            I don’t know whether to laugh or cry when I read that Konashenkov is a stumbling block and if it wasn’t for him, but for someone smarter, then everything would be different. Conclusion, if the commentators had turned on their brains even a little, they would not have been looking for a scapegoat (by the way, our national fun smile ) And they would simply try to voice their opinion about the losses, etc., and the rest would discuss, clarify, it would be a very useful approach.
            As for aviation, at the beginning of the NWO I gave a layout, from where and how. As for the UAV, what does the bayraktar have to do with it, any UAV that was shot down is considered (which was found on the radar screen and subsequently destroyed.
            1. stankow
              stankow 23 July 2022 14: 26
              +1
              All quadrocopters with Ali also count. Not only Bayraktari.
          3. Obliterator
            Obliterator 22 July 2022 16: 46
            0
            Quote: Egoza
            I would not talk like that about a person, he reads out what he was given. Maybe he "behind the scenes" himself spits on this piece of paper, but is forced to read what they gave ..

            He is the head of the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, and not just some kind of TV presenter. That is, the direct boss of those who prepare these pieces of paper.
        2. Maxim G
          Maxim G 21 July 2022 18: 34
          +2
          No - IDEOLOGICAL EXPECTABILITY. In order not to injure the public with the huge losses of the army of the fraternal people (without quotes).


          And at the same time save the nerves of the fraternal people?
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 21 July 2022 19: 07
            +5
            Quote: bayard
            And Konashenkov counted.
            Is he personally counting the units of disabled equipment? The destroyed equipment is reported from below, at the top these data are only summarized, and Konashenkov voices it because he has such a job.
            In terms of military ground equipment, they missed the fact that there is also captured equipment, both for us and for Ukrainians. I would not be surprised if some copies changed their owners more than once and more than once, according to the documentation, passed as retired.
            1. victor50
              victor50 22 July 2022 09: 27
              +5
              Quote: Bad_gr
              The destroyed equipment is reported from below, at the top these data are only summarized, and Konashenkov voices it because he has such a job.

              Exactly. Is he responsible for anything? Doesn't have the right to vote? Everything is so with us, there is an excuse for everything, objective circumstances ...
            2. stankow
              stankow 23 July 2022 14: 27
              0
              Also, damaged and repaired equipment turn the counter two or even three times.
          2. bayard
            bayard 21 July 2022 19: 47
            +12
            Quote: Maxim G
            And at the same time save the nerves of the fraternal people?

            Rather his. Do not forget that most of the citizens of the Russian Federation there (in the former Ukraine) have relatives, friends, classmates, colleagues. It is information about the number of losses that is very painful. Incl. because if the Armed Forces of Ukraine have irretrievable losses of at least 200 thousand, then the question reasonably arises - "How much do we have?" . After all, even if they are an order of magnitude lower, then this is also 20-30 thousand rubles.
            I hasten to reassure the citizens of the Russian Federation somewhat - more than half of the total losses of the allied forces fell (and still fall) on the corps of the republics of Donbass, which take out most of the assault operations and "hold the front". So it was from the very beginning of the operation (the LDNR units were near Kyiv, and near Kharkov, and near Nikolaev, and near Zaporozhye), and this is largely the case now.
            And also keep in mind that after some time most of the former citizens in / on will become the same citizens of the Russian Federation. Remember how in Soviet textbooks and books they did not mention the role of Bandera in the Khatyn Tragedy (there were, as it were, hundreds of such villages), and in the extermination of Kyiv Jews in Babi Yar, and much more like that?
            And about the role of Czechoslovakia in arming the Wehrmacht?
            What about the role of Hungary?
            About Poland - Hell of Europe?
            And all out of political expediency, why exacerbate and excite if they are now our allies under the Warsaw Pact?
            War is always a path of deception, and no one disdained them (deception) in the war. Never .
            For example, you can revise the reports of the Soviet Information Bureau during the Second World War - about the losses of the enemy, especially in 1941, that the enemy has "overwhelming superiority in tanks" (although only on the western front we had only a superiority of 41 in tanks in the summer of 5 once .
            So what we are seeing is the law of the genre and the rules of the game. And war is a theater ... After all, its battlefields are called that - THEATER OF MILITARY ACTIONS.
            1. max702
              max702 22 July 2022 07: 02
              +7
              That's precisely for the reason "do not aggravate! We got none of today's Ukraine and these very young Europeans who are pulling up .. Again on the same rake? If after the war they forced EVERYONE to answer according to their merits and Bandera, and Poles and Hungarians and Romanians and Bulgarians and Czechoslovaks and others You look at the Germans, not only that the current situation would not have happened, but the USSR would not have collapsed feeding former enemies, but none of the "allies" .. So you need to tie up with the "brotherhood" and collect in full! With interest!
              1. bayard
                bayard 22 July 2022 14: 06
                +3
                Quote: max702
                If after the war they forced EVERYONE to answer according to their merits, both Bandera, and Poles and Hungarians and Romanians and Bulgarians and Czechoslovaks and other Germans, you look not only that the current situation would not exist, but the USSR would not have collapsed feeding former enemies, but none of the "allies" .

                Everything must be considered in the realities of that time, the balance of power, priorities in foreign policy and the totality of external and internal (in the liberated territories of Eastern Europe) threats. And those were. Let us recall the "Unthinkable" plan, the American nuclear bomb, England's desire to take control of Poland and even Yugoslavia ... We could not allow a new war against us by the united forces of the West, we could not leave them under control of the newly liberated countries of Eastern Europe - too. And to start building an alternative military bloc to NATO with terror and unaffordable reparations is the height of stupidity.
                And Stalin was smart.
                That is why the King of Romania received the Order of Victory immediately after the war ... lol Funny ? But this was how loyalty was bought and the right choice was encouraged on the eve of the defeat of the Wehrmacht.
                And Bandera, forest brothers and other husks, after the war, were caught in the forests for several years. They were executed and sent to Siberia - for socially useful work without the right to return (after serving time, a special settlement was supposed to be with a ban on living in cities and generally leaving the region).
                Hungary ... do you remember the Hungarian uprising in 1956? Do you know the details? How was it suppressed? But they wanted to join NATO ...
                Czechoslovakia ... 1968 Practically the same.
                Poland ... There, the Polish Army was created almost from scratch by Marshal of Victory Rokosovsky ...
                And Yugoslavia generally left the Department of Internal Affairs.
                But it was our buffer from NATO.
                And a springboard for a swift blow to Western Europe, if war becomes inevitable.
                And it was also a huge common CMEA market.
                Quote: max702
                and the USSR would not have collapsed feeding former enemies, but none of the "allies" ..

                Not from that the USSR fell apart. And the loans given to them did not ruin us. Moreover, since the 90s, those loans that the USSR issued to the countries of Asia, Africa and Latin America to create their own states and economies were to be paid back - in cash or in goods.
                For the USSR (if not for the betrayal of the leadership), the 90s should have been the beginning of a new breakthrough in the development and welfare of citizens.
                And the Banderaites (and not only) from the camps and special settlements were released by Khrushch! Moreover, people from the circles of those very nationalists and collaborators who were identified and imprisoned under Stalin were introduced into the leadership of the union republics (including with the help of the KGB). There are many examples, but the most striking is Kravchuk.
                Quote: max702
                So it is necessary to tie up with the "brotherhood" and collect in full! With interest!

                They took territory from Romania and Hungary, but this removed and closed the issue of indemnities.
                From Germany they took the territory, and the export of entire enterprises, and the export of captured Wehrmacht soldiers to restore the cities of the USSR, and the supply of goods, machine tools and entire factories on a turnkey basis. My friend worked in the post-war period in the State Planning Commission and told me what scale it was and contributed to the speed of the restoration of the USSR after the war.
                But do you apparently mean "brothers" from the former Soviet republics of the USSR? From these, yes, it is necessary to take and exact it in full, because having received everything at the expense of the Russian people, including land, economy, infrastructure, now others bully or directly went over to the side of the enemies of Russia. With these demand must be mandatory , tough and inexorable .
                1. Veter5757
                  Veter5757 22 July 2022 14: 58
                  +2
                  And the Banderaites (and not only) from the camps and special settlements were released by Khrushch!

                  With the filing of the wife of a native of Western Ukraine, Nina Kukharchuk. Apparently, an ideological communist-nationalist Ukrainian stood up for her fellow countrymen.
                2. max702
                  max702 22 July 2022 19: 52
                  -3
                  Quote: bayard
                  . And to start building an alternative military bloc to NATO with terror and unaffordable reparations is the height of stupidity.
                  And Stalin was smart.

                  Started right off the bat! The result of Stalin's mind is now being observed! And all that was necessary was to peel off the population of Europe like sticky and make it work for the USSR for about 25 years, but the wartime army was not sent home to drink and plow to death, but rather increase the equipment and support, but at the expense of all those cattle listed above .. True then it was necessary to say goodbye to the idea of ​​​​socialism-communism (but as we see in the future this would only benefit) but we went the other way echelons with food, orders to direct enemies, our own market, and tasty pieces of the economy so that they would not be "offended" and satisfying they ate .. The rebellions you listed are precisely the result of the slobbering policy of the USSR, the "allies" grew fat, and the USSR tore its veins with its last gasp ... We know how it ended, and now we are seeing it.
                  rs: With everything exported and other things, only 2 (TWO) percent of the destroyed destroyed was taken from Germany, and for 28 million people the Germans still need to keep an answer for a couple of centuries .. if you think that we took enough of them, not to mention the rest, then there are more questions I have not..
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 22 July 2022 22: 24
                    +2
                    Quote: max702
                    Started right off the bat!

                    Hamim?
                    Quote: max702
                    The result of Stalin's mind is now being observed!

                    You with your mind of his cut off nail of the left foot do not stand. And this is no offense, since then not a single mortal has been able to catch up with his mind. Even get close.
                    Quote: max702
                    And all that was necessary was to rip off the population of Europe like sticky and make them work for the USSR for about 25 years

                    The human mind is great. yes
                    And the peoples that we liberated from fascism are entering a new bondage. smile ... "Smart" ...
                    Quote: max702
                    .True, then it was necessary to say goodbye to the idea of ​​socialism-communism

                    Yes Yes . yes And the case of Adolf Aloizovich to continue? smile
                    And would the already conquered (not liberated) peoples, without grumbling, begin to feed and appease the Soviet Army mobilized under the wartime regime?
                    And would women and children throughout the USSR be left without husbands and fathers? On the ashes?
                    And at defense plants, would teenagers and pensioners with women and girls continue to work? BUT ? Why study, give birth to children, rebuild the country? If a user with a foreign pioneer badge offered to leave all the men in Europe?
                    And the former allies, who have already got hold of a nuclear bomb, having thousands of long-range bombers and also mobilized armies ... would they look quietly and not grumble?
                    Wouldn’t the under-yoke peoples of enslaved (at your request) Europe be incited to revolt? Wouldn't they have been promised help and acceptance "into the family of civilized peoples"?
                    Or maybe other countries of the world of our small planet, looking like having defeated the dragon of European fascism, the Soviet Union itself became a fascist empire ... would they follow our path? Would they overthrow the colonial yoke, for the sake of our already-yoke?
                    Have you even got acquainted with the history of that period - the post-war period? Do you even know that almost the whole world until that moment was divided into colonies? And that only AFTER the victory of the Soviet Union in WWII, this world colonial system began to crumble. And right up to the end of the 60s, this decay continued very actively. Britain lost its colonies ... France fought for 10 years in Indochina with North Vietnam in order to remain mistress there. And when she left, she passed the baton to the Americans ... Do you know the history of India's exit from colonial dependence? What happened in Africa? How revolutionary blacks and Arabs bulged out of Europeans from there.
                    And where did all these heroes of the liberation movement get their inspiration , knowledge , experience , who trained their future leaders , government officials and military specialists ?
                    And why did they turn to us - to the USSR for help and support?
                    MORAL AUTHORITY OF THE WINNERS OF FASCISM!
                    And an example of Soviet statehood's own successes ... The first satellite in 1957!
                    The first man in space in the spring of 1961!
                    Universal and free education!
                    Public and quality health care.
                    Excellent engineering school.
                    The strongest army in the world.
                    Kind, friendly and helpful people.
                    After all, it was with this soft power that we destroyed all the colonial empires of our enemies.
                    And found allies, friends and imitators all over the world.
                    The fact that the Trotskyist underground later seized control and handed over the Great Country, an entire civilization ... to the flow and plunder ... is not the fault of our victorious grandfathers. This is their problem and ours.
                    Quote: max702
                    ) but we went the other way food trains

                    Yes , there were echelons with grain . But this is due to the fact that the sowing campaign was not carried out in Germany because of the war. But there were other echelons, already from Germany to the USSR with elite cattle - to restore ruined collective farms. And this process cracked simultaneously - in the same 1945/46.
                    Quote: max702
                    orders to direct enemies,

                    But through this, Romania resignedly entered the Soviet zone of occupation, and later the king ... migrated to Europe, and Socialism won in Romania. This is how Stalin worked - without swearing, threats and violence. Remember the joke on this occasion? How to make a cat eat mustard?
                    Like this yes voluntarily and with songs!
                    Quote: max702
                    . The rebellions you listed are precisely the result of the slobbery policy of the USSR

                    This was the result of the subversive work of the West, its secret services and agents.
                    Quote: max702
                    , and the USSR tore its veins with its last gasp ...

                    Under Stalin? After the war ?
                    Yes, the country was being restored, new industries were being launched ... And who raised the country from ruins so quickly for us? Remember??
                    German and Japanese prisoners of war!
                    I was born in a city that was rebuilt almost entirely by captured Germans. Good quality and pretty pretty.
                    Remember Kolya from Urengoy? So this is exactly the city in which the same German died of illness, about whom Kolya so bitterly wept and repented.
                    Quote: max702
                    From Germany, with everything exported and other things, only 2 (TWO) percent of the destroyed destroyed

                    You don't know statistics. Not how many cities were restored to us from the ashes and rubble by their prisoners of war, not how many new ones were built or rebuilt and ennobled throughout the country. You do not know how much we were supplied from Germany after the war on reparations. And they would have continued to deliver on reparations, if not for Khrushchev, who stopped all this. And on the contrary, he began to barter and distribute gratuitous gifts right and left. It was they who gave the young countries-former colonies a freebie. And they quickly realized.
                    Have you heard the story of the supply of the latest warships to Indonesia (it was socialist then) by this half-wit? My friend's stepfather served on the cruiser on which Khrushch arrived there ... It was such a game ... He just abandoned our ships there, the sailors were taken out by plane, not everyone even managed to take personal belongings with them (weight limit for aircraft) ... And then the Indonesians did not know what to do with these steel bulks - after all, they didn’t even leave instructors ... A schizophrenic with a bullet in his head ... Then he gave both Port Arthur and the CER ...
                    So you already decide who is to blame for your troubles. Under Stalin, such bestiality and stupidity could not even be seen in a dream.
                    Quote: max702
                    if you think that these, not to mention the rest, we took enough

                    I think it's not enough.
                    I think that if Stalin had lived for another 10 years, then we would have taken an indemnity until the 80s at least. And if he had lived at least a year more, Khrushch would never have been able to come to power - Stalin began to carry out such a reform in the state and the party ... for which the conspirators killed him.
                    From the rest?
                    Differently . Some had their defense enterprises dismantled and taken away, while others were used in the global game as gloves on their own hands.
                    Remember who supplied the newly created Comrade Stalin, Israel, weapons?
                    Czechoslovakia. yes
                    Even the captured Messerschmites with German pilots at the controls ... they are all Czechs with Slovaks.
                    It was a big game, the World System of Socialism was being rapidly created, and the addition of another ally turned into a synergy of increasing forces, opportunities, and potential in the global confrontation.
                    The Cold War was on.
                    1. max702
                      max702 23 July 2022 09: 59
                      -5
                      Oh how! You pray to your God as much as you like, and the holiness and sinlessness of it is a dogma for you for others, it looks somewhat different, history has proven its fallacy, which in reality we are now seeing, the Germans did not return anything to us as it should be and owe another 200 years to come ! all these socialist regimes, liberation movements and other nonsense only sat on the neck of the Russian people and nothing more! About who would start working in the national economy of the USSR instead of women and children, I explained the whole of Eastern Europe, which was controlled by the USSR, it’s okay to look like sandals and poly quinoa as it was in the USSR because they are guilty! All your theses are typical krasnodivannye lies, the delusionality of which real life has proven, but you BELIEVE! Continue in the same spirit . A communist is always a Russophobe!
                      1. bayard
                        bayard 23 July 2022 16: 43
                        0
                        Maksimka, what kind of "god" do you have on your pioneer badge? And what's on his cockade?
                        And what "god" are you praying to, with such foam on your lips?
              2. stankow
                stankow 23 July 2022 14: 31
                0
                And what are the Bulgarians "responsible for"? Did they burn Belarusian villages in WWII?
                1. max702
                  max702 23 July 2022 14: 42
                  0
                  What? And on which side did the scumbags fight in WWII? Or in PMV? Brothers ALWAYS fought on the side of the enemies of Russia and crap as best they could! Learn the materiel!
                  1. stankow
                    stankow 27 July 2022 18: 37
                    0
                    Fought, you say? Well, tell me then, one operation, one battle, in which the units of the spacecraft opposed the Bulgarian units? It is in the Second World War? laughing lol How many years have we been studying this damned materiel, but we don’t find this and we don’t find it. Maybe they came up with alternatives? laughing
                    1. max702
                      max702 2 August 2022 10: 57
                      0
                      You at least look at the wiki military ..
                      1. stankow
                        stankow 2 August 2022 17: 59
                        0
                        I look. And not just the wiki. And there is no confirmation of your words and no :) Trolling?
                      2. max702
                        max702 5 August 2022 11: 58
                        0
                        What, you can't read?
                        During the First World War, in 1916-1917, Russian and Bulgarian units repeatedly had clashes on the Romanian and Thessaloniki fronts, in some places very fierce. For example, near the city of Monastir in Macedonia in November 1916, the 2nd special Russian brigade lost about a third of the personnel in battles with the Bulgarian troops. By the end of 1917, there were about 2000 (according to other sources - 5000) prisoners of war of the Bulgarian army in Russia.
                        In March 1941, Bulgaria joined the Tripartite Pact and provided Germany with its territory for the deployment of troops. It is also incorrect to say that during the Second World War there were no skirmishes between the Soviet and Bulgarian armed forces. Formally, without fighting against the USSR, the Bulgarian military were part of the convoys of German and Romanian transports in the Black Sea. For its part, the submarines of the Soviet Black Sea Fleet were active near the coast of Bulgaria. They laid minefields at the Bulgarian ports of Varna and Burgas, conducted reconnaissance, attacked convoys on occasion. Already in 1941, a series of clashes took place, in which the Bulgarian fleet and aviation took part.
                        So, until the end of the year, Bulgarian coast guard aircraft attacked the Soviet submarines they discovered five times, but only once hit the target, and the fact of sinking is in question. It is authentically known that two Soviet submarines were blown up by mines in the Bulgarian territorial waters. And on December 6, 1941, in the Burgas region, Bulgarian patrol boats disabled the Soviet submarine Shch-204. The Bulgarian transport "Shipka" was blown up on Soviet mines. On September 9, 1941, the Soviet submarine L-4 on the surface fired from guns and sank the Bulgarian ship "Success". Clashes arose in the future.
                        Few? more than enough!
                        And now the fascist crap is true to tradition!
                      3. stankow
                        stankow 7 August 2022 02: 38
                        0
                        In, there were no stitches in WWII. And not the Bulgarian units fought in Russia, but the Russians in Macedonia and Dobruja on our lands. In both WWI and WWII, Russia declared war on Bulgaria, and not vice versa. So there's a lot to regret, but repent - I'm sorry, it won't work!
                      4. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 7 August 2022 06: 20
                        +1
                        Quote: stankow
                        So you can regret a lot, but repent - sorry, it won't work!

                        Because repentance in the form of a coup and the subsequent declaration of war on Germany was made by the left under the leadership of the communists, before which modern Bulgaria now probably needs to repent ..
                        Quote: stankow
                        that Russia declared war on Bulgaria

                        A sort of ostrich position - they declared war on the allies of the USSR, we are in alliance with the aggressor, we provide ports with airfields, we cooperate economically.
                      5. stankow
                        stankow 7 August 2022 12: 03
                        -1
                        Yes, everything beats in politics. Here is the Russian Federation - it is fighting to the fullest, rockets are falling, but it is trading with the West, it does not declare war on Ukraine. Let everything remain in the diplomatic plane, and repentance, regret - in the field of morality.
                      6. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 7 August 2022 12: 38
                        +2
                        Quote: stankow
                        in the field of morality

                        Yes, yes, the leadership of Bulgaria often has a very flexible approach to morality ... there is only one hope - the memory of the people is always longer ...
                      7. stankow
                        stankow 7 August 2022 12: 53
                        0
                        There has been no "Bulgarian leadership" for a long time. All of them are proteges of the American embassy. They don’t even pretend that they are independent anymore.
                      8. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 7 August 2022 13: 03
                        +1
                        Quote: stankow
                        There has been no "Bulgarian leadership" for a long time.

                        Well, before that there were "proteges of the German leadership" ... Only one question, I'm really interested - Skobelev is still remembered and revered ...
                      9. stankow
                        stankow 7 August 2022 13: 29
                        0
                        Yes, they are highly respected. Even in 2007, a new monument to Skobelev was erected in Plevna! In 2007!! All over Europe, Russian monuments are being demolished, and new ones are being installed in Bulgaria! We have more than 400 monuments from the Russian-Turkish 1878 and WWII. Not a single one has been demolished, all are well-groomed, with flowers on holidays. But you do not even suspect, they are hiding from you. That's what liberal media is! They can’t demolish it, and they don’t dare, but rewrite history - very much so. But they will soon flee, as they will flee from Kabul, as they will flee from Saigon, but the monuments will remain! wink

                        Right here:

                        https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.pleven.bg/bg/zabelezhitelnosti-pametnitsi-i-muzei/pametnik-na-gen-d-m-skobelev/&ved=2ahUKEwiB0YuHwbT5AhXNVfEDHe0NCzIQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2s_6xr4AASV-yczf26cRfh
                      10. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 7 August 2022 13: 38
                        +1
                        Quote: stankow
                        and rewrite history - very even.

                        So we are trying our best...
                      11. stankow
                        stankow 7 August 2022 13: 55
                        0
                        And they even have successes, bastards;) But don't believe them! Not a word !!
                        In, click: in Russian, the pictures are up-to-date. And show your friends. With respect and gratitude, transdanubian greetings ;) !

                        https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25D0%25A1%25D0%25BF%25D0%25B8%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BA_%25D0%25BF%25D0%25B0%25D0%25BC%25D1%258F%25D1%2582%25D0%25BD%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BA%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B2_%25D1%2580%25D1%2583%25D1%2581%25D1%2581%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B8%25D0%25BC_%25D0%25B2_%25D0%2591%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BB%25D0%25B3%25D0%25B0%25D1%2580%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B8&ved=2ahUKEwi8pvfsx7T5AhXdVfEDHaf1CQwQFnoECAoQBQ&usg=AOvVaw08rF87g-K6PqGiEgm7ULh_
            2. EvilLion
              EvilLion 22 July 2022 10: 08
              +2
              There are no irrevocable in 200 thousand. The dead and prisoners, the wounded, even if without a leg, are considered irrevocable. But in general, 100 thousand Little Russian peasants may well be killed as a result. And I don’t see anything good in this.

              (although only on the western front in the summer of 41 did we only have a 5-fold superiority in tanks.


              Only in tanks it was, in everything else it was a complete seam.
              1. bayard
                bayard 22 July 2022 14: 26
                +2
                Quote: EvilLion
                There are no irrevocable in 200 thousand. The dead and prisoners, the wounded, even if without a leg, are considered irrevocable.

                This figure is internal assessment information from that side, as well as information from the American curator general of the Armed Forces of Ukraine through NATO.
                With my calculations and extrapolation, this is approximately the same.
                But talking about it is unfashionable, unhelpful and perhaps inappropriate.
                Quote: EvilLion
                Only in tanks it was, in everything else it was a complete seam.

                Why only in tanks?
                In artillery, we also had a multiple superiority (at the beginning of the war, of course, during the retreat we quickly lost this superiority).
                In aviation ... There was no qualitative superiority for sure, but here is QUANTITATIVE fellow In some fighters, the ratio was even steeper than in tanks. Otherwise, where would the German aces have shot themselves so many shot down on personal accounts?
                The Red Army was inferior to the Wehrmacht in 1941 in the main - as control, coordination, communications and combat interspecific interaction. As the work of staffs and in general in the training and qualification of senior and senior command personnel.
                For the Red Army, these were problems of rapid numerical growth, when the commanders of regiments, divisions, corps and armies often simply did not correspond to their qualifications for such positions. After all, the Red Army grew from 150 to 5,5 million in a matter of years. And this is after the personnel purges of the Army in 1938.
                The Red Army learned to fight, and the command - to command, during the war itself. I studied well, quickly, that's why we won.
                1. EvilLion
                  EvilLion 22 July 2022 15: 28
                  +2
                  Shooting aces, even without delusional talk about lies, is not an indicator of the effectiveness of the Air Force. You can appoint some DDs on a free hunt, and others as meat, so that the bombers accompany and fly to intercept the bombers. The first will shoot down, the second will go astray.

                  And tsifir has the limits of the possible. The Americans did not count 200 thousand people, but they did not say that these people were killed, they simply do not exist, and the Yankees do not know where they are, maybe they were wounded, maybe they were captured, or maybe they deserted, the last category is taken into account poorly, although it can reach tens of thousands, not to mention the possibility that many people listed in the units have never been there, but allowances were issued for them.

                  The Red Army was inferior to the Wehrmacht in the first place in numbers. Because when you have 2.8 million in the western districts (which in itself is a large spread in space), and the enemy has up to 5, then even with competent decisions of the command, which just happened, and any comparable training of troops, which and it wasn’t close, it’s very difficult to do anything, and the enemy will constantly have a 3-4-fold superiority in numbers.

                  The rest I'm just too lazy to comment on. If it were not for personnel purges, the infantry would not have been able to dig in, let alone carry out complex operations.
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 22 July 2022 16: 36
                    +2
                    Quote: EvilLion
                    The first will shoot down, the second will go astray.

                    The main fighters of the Air Force of the Red Army were then the I-16 and I-15, new vehicles were delivered to the troops, but were not yet properly mastered, and on the eve of the war itself, by order of the Air Force's chief command office, the sights of almost all fighters were removed (the same happened with sights of artillery pieces in the Western District). Well, a blow to airfields that were not camouflaged, the planes stood wing to wing ...
                    But the numerical superiority nevertheless was and was enormous.
                    Quote: EvilLion
                    And tsifir has the limits of the possible. The Americans did not count 200 thousand people, but they did not say that these people were killed, they simply did not exist,

                    This figure has been from the American general for a month and a half, no less. And even before that American statement, the relatives of the military personnel of the Armed Forces of Ukraine who disappeared from communications and did not get in touch for more than a month, after being denied information from the Ministry of Defense and the presidential apparatus, contacted each other on social networks, created groups, counted ... and even then (and this more than 2 months ago) the number of such missing persons was over 1000 thousand people.
                    This does not take into account the officially dead, wounded and prisoners (because in captivity we always give the opportunity to call relatives and say that they are alive).
                    There is another calculation option - every day the Armed Forces of Ukraine lose from 600 to 1000 people only killed. (sometimes more). 150 days of war have passed.
                    In addition to those immediately killed, those wounded who died during the evacuation and from wounds in hospitals are added to the irretrievable losses. A considerable part of the wounded went under disassembly for organs. And there it has been put on stream since 2014. Prisoners of the order of 10 people. Deserters ... yes, perhaps several tens of thousands.
                    Here also consider.
                    Moreover, in the same reports, the Ministry of Defense cannot take into account all the losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and only cite losses from missile, air strikes, as well as sometimes (!) The results of MLRS and artillery strikes. Accounting for losses in contact shooting battles, during artillery raids, in counter-battery combat. So we can safely assume that the Armed Forces of Ukraine lose about 1000 people per day.
                    The rest (deserters, prisoners of war, who died of wounds) go by trailer.
                    It’s sad to consider all this - nevertheless, the fraternal people, albeit under the Nazis, we all have a lot of relatives there, friends, acquaintances ...
                    And to these (about 200 thousand people) irretrievable losses, add sanitary losses (we safely multiply by two). As a result, it receives about 600 thousand total losses.
                    So these losses have been nullified for almost the entire mobilization, and the strength of the Armed Forces of Ukraine today is estimated at 700-750 thousand people.
                    At the beginning of the conflict, there were about 500-600 thousand armed people in the ranks - the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the National Guard, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, border guards, and the Navy.

                    Quote: EvilLion
                    The Red Army was inferior to the Wehrmacht in the first place in numbers. Because when you have 2.8 million in the western counties

                    Well, I did not write about it, of course, and it affected.
                    It’s just that the Red Army grew then every year by about 1 million +, new divisions and corps were deployed, many of them were not fully equipped with equipment and weapons, commanders sometimes jumped from battalion commanders to brigade commanders.
                    Quote: EvilLion
                    If it were not for personnel purges, the infantry would not have been able to dig in, let alone carry out complex operations.

                    Not only Trotskyists - blockheads and scoundrels, those purges were swept away. under the slander of the same ideological Trotskyists, many other commanders of the Army then went under execution. Including my great-uncle - commander of the 25th Chapaev division, friend and former deputy of Vasily Ivanovich. And there were many such cases. One example is enough - Rokosovsky!
                    Would they have kept Moscow without him?
                    Let me remind you - the Panfilov division was part of his army. And he personally gathered his army himself, intercepting the retreating scattered units and subunits - everything was then decided on personal initiative there. And professionalism.

                    So the losses of the enemy are about the same as I described to you, and we may know the exact numbers in 20 years.
        3. Iris
          Iris 21 July 2022 18: 43
          +2
          There is one conclusion from your commentary - you have surpassed Konashenkov and you may well replace him with the assignment of the rank of admiral-colonel. Mass deliveries of Soviet aircraft from the USA - special thanks for this!.
          1. bayard
            bayard 21 July 2022 20: 00
            +2
            Quote: Kasatik
            Mass deliveries of Soviet aircraft from the USA - special thanks for this!.

            Are you surprised by this?
            After the collapse of the USSR, the United States collected Soviet aircraft at home, only the MiG-29 and Su-27 almost for a couple of regiments. And they trained their pilots in air battles with them.
            And from the beginning of the b / d in / on, deliveries of serviceable cars from the USA began through Poland and Romania.
            Have you really not heard about it?
            Quote: Kasatik
            you have surpassed Konashenkov and may well replace him

            Many can replace him, but everyone has his own place.
            1. EvilLion
              EvilLion 22 July 2022 10: 09
              0
              They managed to get only a few Su-27s, the MiG-29 regiment was sold by Moldova, but in my opinion it did not sell it completely. Because no one needs it in FIG, so look and fly, so a couple of planes are enough for this.
              1. bayard
                bayard 22 July 2022 14: 33
                +1
                In total, the MiG-29 and Su-27 in the United States were under half a hundred, if not more.
                Quote: EvilLion
                no one needs it in figs, so look and fly, so a couple of planes are enough for this.

                No, they armed them with the so-called. "Aggressor Squadron" (later, it would seem, "Red Flag") and used to train their pilots in air training battles with real enemy aircraft. Including close maneuver combat.
                Well, for the collection, of course, they kept it.
                Later, a part was sold even for personal use. Some of the Americans bought a MiG-29, someone Mi-24.
                And now they have cleaned up all these storerooms, they are collecting Soviet aircraft around the world, on which the Sumerians are capable and trained to fly. Therefore, the targets for our air defense do not end.
                1. EvilLion
                  EvilLion 22 July 2022 15: 29
                  +1
                  Personal use is personal use, and a squadron is enough for Aggressors. And these cars will stagger extremely quickly. And to collect equipment around the world, so in Africa there are a lot of people who have a couple of Su-25s, only they themselves need it, which means they need to conduct dreary negotiations for the sake of insignificant volumes.
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 22 July 2022 16: 44
                    +1
                    Quote: EvilLion
                    and for the "Aggressors" a squadron is enough.

                    I remember from the official figures (although it has been for a long time), they had about 48, either all the MiG-29s, or together with a certain number of Su-27s, of which there really were few, but there were definitely one or two links.
                    Quote: EvilLion
                    . And these cars will stagger extremely quickly.

                    Maybe in order to always have a replacement fund while the other batch is being repaired, and to keep such an expanded fleet. Fortunately, these planes (mainly the MiG-29) were available, and they had money like foolish candy wrappers.
                    Quote: EvilLion
                    in Africa, many people have a couple of Su-25s, only they themselves need it, which means they need to conduct dreary negotiations for the sake of insignificant volumes.

                    Apparently, so as not to conduct such negotiations and not have problems with the maintenance of old Soviet airplanes, and there was talk about the intention to put the F-15 and F-16. There are many such freshly decommissioned ones - he podshamanized into battle. By September, these may well appear on the theater.
        4. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 22 July 2022 03: 26
          -1
          Quote: bayard
          As you know, after the collapse of the USSR, Krajina-U got the aviation of the THREE best military districts of the Soviet Army. And there were a lot of planes. Including new types.

          Those who ask such "little things" do not bother, what is written in Wiki is true (often true, but not all of it). In terms of armor, Konashenkov fits into the figure of cash at the beginning of the SVO. But as for the psychological moments, I won’t support your opinion, it’s difficult for the RF Ministry of Defense. hi
          1. bayard
            bayard 22 July 2022 14: 37
            +2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            But as for the psychological moments, I won’t support your opinion, it’s difficult for the RF Ministry of Defense.

            So this is not the product of a gloomy military genius. This is a political setting from the leadership of the political.
            And it calculates such moments in advance.
            hi
        5. victor50
          victor50 22 July 2022 09: 23
          0
          Quote: bayard
          And this is not at all in defense of the stupid Konashenkov ... who is really stupid.

          How are you so ... impartial about .... He was recently, like, a lieutenant general was assigned .. For his merits, obviously. Some.
          1. bayard
            bayard 22 July 2022 14: 43
            +2
            Quote: victor50
            Merit, obviously. Some.

            For a dashing look and dashing appearance. yes
            The information front of this war (sorry - SVO) is being conducted very disgustingly. Even since 2014 it is impossible to compare.
            Quote: victor50
            Merit, obviously. Some.

            Perhaps by length of service, if the position corresponds. Well, for a more presentable appearance of our reports - nevertheless, the lieutenant general reports, and not some kind of major general.
            1. victor50
              victor50 22 July 2022 16: 32
              +1
              Quote: bayard
              now the lieutenant general reports, and not some kind of major general

              I see that almost from the district level of the Investigative Committee and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, all the information is supplied by the generals. Lieutenants can't read the summary? Does this skill only develop over the years? Long? laughing
              1. bayard
                bayard 22 July 2022 19: 36
                0
                This is for solidity.
                Quote: victor50
                almost from the district level of the Investigative Committee and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, all information is supplied by the generals.

                And this is for the people to see the face of their power.
        6. EvilLion
          EvilLion 22 July 2022 10: 13
          -3
          50-70 thousand killed for an army of 500 thousand - this is actually disaster. There will be 2-3 times more wounded there, and first of all, the fighters in the first line die, that is, such an army simply will not have motorized infantry, only rears.

          There will be no Fu-16s, or "mirages". The reasons for understanding people are obvious.
          1. bayard
            bayard 22 July 2022 15: 00
            -1
            Quote: EvilLion
            50-70 thousand killed for an army of 500 thousand is actually a disaster.

            Yes, during this time they have already mobilized under a million. It’s just that when half of this (total) number has retired irrevocably or wounded, then 700+ thousand remain in the ranks.
            Quote: EvilLion
            There will be 2-3 times more wounded,

            They have this ratio somewhat lower for a simple reason - they often either finish off the wounded or throw them on the battlefield (and they die themselves). And those who are carried out, but unable to quickly return to duty, are being dismantled for organs for the "civilized west". Just don't sport with the latter, I know that very well.
            And in order to hide the losses, all the dead, abandoned on the battlefield and disemboweled by surgeons, are declared deserters.
            And "deserters" are also irretrievable losses.
            Quote: EvilLion
            , i.e., such an army simply will not have motorized infantry left, only rears.

            Personnel units and subunits have been protecting lately, withdrawing in a timely manner, replacing at the last moment with terbats.
            Quote: EvilLion
            There will be no Fu-16s, or "mirages". The reasons for understanding people are obvious.

            Europe, yes, has already begun to spin "as if to jump off", but England and the USA continue to press on. And the pilots were taken out for retraining by no means for the sake of idle fun.
            And if they are ready not to even wash, not to warm themselves and live from hand to mouth, for the sake of "victory over Mordor", then throw a little old stuff to the Sumerians, so that it will be more fun ... for them - a holy cause.
            Quote: EvilLion
            There will be no Fu-16s, or "mirages"

            Well, that's only if the RF Armed Forces move on to the 3rd phase of the NMD, from which dynamic offensive operations are expected with the defeat of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on all fronts.
            Many people are waiting for this today.
            Others , even impatiently .
            1. EvilLion
              EvilLion 22 July 2022 15: 33
              -2
              They physically do not have the ability to mobilize a million, this is 3-4% of the population under control. Such mobilization is in fact total. During the Second World War, the USSR put 12-15 percent under arms, and even then not immediately, and the men ran out by the summer of 1944. And there were many young people in the USSR, but in modern Ukraine, the birth rate was bottom all 30 years, even by the standards of Europe, plus the young were actively leaving, this is a country of pensioners.
              1. bayard
                bayard 22 July 2022 19: 34
                +1
                Have you seen who is being mobilized there now?
                Already 40 - 50-year-olds have gone into business.
                Quote: EvilLion
                Such mobilization is in fact total.

                She practically is. Or when men are caught on the street, in transport, on the beach and subpoenas are handed out, is it something else?
                Another thing is that the pace of such mobilization is approximately equal to the rate of loss of manpower on the fronts (and not only those killed).
              2. single-n
                single-n 23 July 2022 12: 26
                0
                3% is not total mobilization. Total is about 10%. Plus mercenaries, advisers, volunteers. Plus, the supply of everything by the West, which means that fewer people are needed to work on the rear. Plus, millions of non-combatants have been taken to the EU. Which again reduces the load on the rear. So you can mobilize 10-15%. And since the Russian Federation can only afford a creeping blitzkrieg, there is plenty of time for training. Losses of 500-600 people are simply ridiculous for an army of hundreds of thousands. Moreover, the Armed Forces of Ukraine are systematically retreating and maintaining units as unified structures. So there is someone to train recruits.
        7. begemot20091
          begemot20091 22 July 2022 20: 45
          -1
          Damn, I'm reading here infantry generals who, apart from the barnyard, have not seen anything. Go fight. Only after the collapse of the Union in our "village" there were 2 aviation regiments. An airborne brigade, a missile brigade ... And what's more. There are a couple of every creature, and warehouses ... Up to the "sky". And the tanks near Krivoy Rog (this is just what I saw) = unmeasured, in three tiers on top of each other. Almost the entire armored group of the GSVG. They drove, they drove ... And the rest that they didn’t take out was thrown to the “allies”. Another year must be hammered at the same pace.
          1. bayard
            bayard 22 July 2022 22: 52
            +1
            And Baba Yaga is traditionally against.
            I don’t know how it is in your village, whether there is a barnyard, whether the cattle is alive ... but what was taken to / from the NSVG was sold abroad in the very first years of independence. To the countries of Asia, Africa, and possibly Latin America. Almost the entire fleet of T-72s (the highest demand for them has always been) and to a large extent - T-80. And the T-64 was taken to Kharkov for recycling (the Americans insisted, Yaneka's hands were twisted), and there the war found them.
            Quote: begemot20091
            Another year must be hammered at the same pace.

            What was already basically disposed of, now your Sumerian Kingdom is at war with what the American and European "god" sends.
            But while sending.
            And you don’t get bored in the swamp, we’ll come soon, it will be more fun.
            1. begemot20091
              begemot20091 7 August 2022 13: 15
              0
              our "Sumerian" fucks ... it "art, aviation .. And, thank God, huge banners with portraits of our HEROES appeared on the streets of Siberian cities!
              1. bayard
                bayard 7 August 2022 21: 31
                0
                So we have Baba Yaga from Siberia?
                Well then hello to her from Donetsk.
                1. begemot20091
                  begemot20091 8 August 2022 08: 17
                  0
                  Not from Siberia, but "from Siberia". Have a nice one you too.
        8. TatarinSSSR
          TatarinSSSR 23 July 2022 13: 31
          +1
          Excuse me, but the underestimated losses in the manpower of Ukraine - do the dead Ukrainian military have no relatives, friends, relatives? Who are not interested in why all of a sudden it is no longer possible to contact a fighter in any way? His fate is not interesting to them? I think even 50-70 thousand families who lost their husband, brother, son, father in this war are already a problem for the command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. And even greater losses will rebel relatives sooner or later.
          1. bayard
            bayard 23 July 2022 16: 58
            0
            Quote: TatarinSSSR
            Excuse me, but the underestimated losses in the manpower of Ukraine - do the dead Ukrainian military have no relatives, friends, relatives? Who are not interested in why all of a sudden it is no longer possible to contact a fighter in any way?

            There are such, there are a lot of them, their requests were kicked off (and kicked off) by the Ministry of Defense and their presidential apparatus. In desperation, they organized groups on social networks to exchange information, counted. More than two months ago, they counted MORE THAN 100 such "missing" people. This is not counting those officially recognized as dead, wounded and captured. And this is internal data from the former Ukraine. The Ukrainian authorities at the same time (2+ months ago) banned all these groups in social networks and brought the exchange of such data under a criminal article. And people are already sitting. And this, too, is internal data from the former Ukraine, from their citizens and bloggers.
            Quote: TatarinSSSR
            And even greater losses will rebel relatives sooner or later.

            In a totalitarian fascist state, any internal rebellion is doomed to failure, because it is suppressed and punished in the most severe and inhuman way.
            Perceive the territory of the former Ukraine as occupied by the enemy (fascists, NATO) and it will become easier for you to understand the logic of the events taking place there. People there really are hostages in the hands of maniacs.
            hi
      3. 76SSSR
        76SSSR 22 July 2022 14: 28
        +1
        Quote: ammunition
        some sadness creeps in.

        As my good friend used to say: why do you need the truth, you still don’t know what to do with it ...
    4. zloybond
      zloybond 22 July 2022 08: 31
      +5
      Once Katukov asked his commissar - how does he motivate soldiers? I tell them the truth.......
    5. Veter5757
      Veter5757 22 July 2022 14: 53
      +3
      Giving false numbers to the population in the age of the Internet is to undermine the credibility of the authorities. And at a difficult time for the country.
      In the Second World War, it was about the same, but then they were able to verify the accuracy of the information provided only after the war, after the Victory, and then not immediately. And the interest of the shirnarmass in the year 1947-48 to the reports of 1941-45 faded decently.
      1. zenion
        zenion 22 July 2022 15: 42
        -2
        These are not false figures, but there is a correct figure, so to speak. Here they captured a couple of hundred thousand tanks of the enemy. What to do with these tanks when the enemy does not have them. It is possible, through the back kryltso, through the blat system, to sell these nasty about two thousand tanks in order to have someone to fight with. The enemies have run out of shells, and we don't know what to do with this Everest of shells. They have tanks suitable for these shells. So that the war would continue again through the back, they sold a million shells through the blat. We have, they also have, but where no one sees. Airplanes are in trouble. Again, through blat, we tell them how many aircraft that are suitable for them to have in the countries of the former marriage. If there is no money, we can borrow through blat and a certain percentage. All satisfied rates and titles are growing and of course the salary is above the limit. If things are bad, then these nasty people can forget some of the equipment in some places, or blow it up. All is well, everyone is happy to the point of impossibility!
  2. nnm
    nnm 21 July 2022 16: 03
    +3
    Well, it’s not for nothing that rule 3 was invented a long time ago.
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 21 July 2022 16: 18
      +1
      . However, these methods raise serious questions regarding the reliability of the announced figures.
      We don't know much...
      1. saved
        saved 21 July 2022 16: 50
        +7
        I have been following armaments for a long time and I can tell you that the figures that have been voiced more than once about the fact that in Ukraine by the beginning of the special operation there were so few weapons caused me bewilderment. Despite the voice acting of tanks and aircraft on the move, in fact, there were three times more of them. At the same time, I want to say that ours are telling half-truths. If the tank was hit, this does not mean that it cannot then return to the stop. In general, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
      2. Gardamir
        Gardamir 21 July 2022 16: 51
        +4


        It's all about knowledge
        1. military_cat
          military_cat 21 July 2022 17: 43
          +7
          Moreover, knowledge alone is not enough, intellectual work is also needed.

          1. Aag
            Aag 22 July 2022 10: 04
            0
            Quote: military_cat
            Moreover, knowledge alone is not enough, intellectual work is also needed.



            Plus desire ... Or other motivation.
  3. ism_ek
    ism_ek 21 July 2022 16: 06
    -34
    According to official data from the same Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, at the time of the military operation, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had 152 aircraft, 149 helicopters, 36 Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, 2 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 416 MLRS, 535 field artillery pieces and mortars.
    Author, bother to give a link, otherwise your entire article is fake.
    1. nnm
      nnm 21 July 2022 16: 17
      +19
      It seems that you have read about Konashenkov's briefings for the first time. Video from 21.07, enemy casualty figures at the end of the video:
      https://iz.ru/1368116/video/brifing-konashenkova
      1. ism_ek
        ism_ek 21 July 2022 16: 36
        -24
        Quote: nnm
        you read about Konashenkov's briefings for the first time.
        Don't explain. Specifically, give a link that at the beginning of the conflict, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had "2 tanks and other armored combat vehicles"
    2. Victor jnnjdfy
      Victor jnnjdfy 21 July 2022 16: 17
      +28
      These figures were voiced by Konashenkov. The author himself did not invent anything.
      There, ours lied about the fact that many enemy aircraft were destroyed on the ground, although they managed to relocate and disperse "live" aircraft before the 24th. Probably the same with the rest. Konashenkov looks ridiculous, but this does not prevent him from receiving stars and orders.
      1. aglet
        aglet 21 July 2022 17: 50
        0
        "Konashenkov looks ridiculous, but this does not prevent him from receiving stars and orders."
        konashenkov - talking head. he does not invent anything, but voices the numbers that they write to him on a piece of paper
    3. ViktorBiryukov
      21 July 2022 16: 17
      +27
      Information is easily verified (if you want). The media have repeatedly given these figures with reference to the Ministry of Defense. Konashenkov repeatedly voiced them.
      1. Edik
        Edik 21 July 2022 16: 45
        0
        According to him, more and more Ukrainian planes are appearing, although the aviation in Ukraine should have already been defeated and the number of combat-ready pilots and planes should have disappeared.
        “The explanation for this is that Ukrainian planes from time to time appear in the front-line sky is very simple - this means that they transferred planes from the Warsaw Pact countries, because huge stocks of Soviet weapons remained in the former Warsaw Pact countries,” Boroday said.

        https://ukraina.ru/20220502/1033899653.html
      2. Eroma
        Eroma 21 July 2022 17: 50
        +9
        In the "Combat Composition" this is not the same as what is available! The Russian Federation has 2500 tanks in its "combat strength", and only T72, T80 and T64 are available for more than 12000! bully Ukraine also had a lot of iron in its warehouses, the Armed Forces of Ukraine actually had large numbers of losses from the first days, as I understand it, this iron was recorded as destroyed after attacks on storage warehouses, and then after they were captured! At the initial stage of the SVO, it is quite possible that the loss from the "combat strength" was not large, since the Armed Forces of Ukraine dispersed. This combat composition is fighting, despite the huge losses in the warehouses. what it is much more important to understand how much equipment the Armed Forces of Ukraine have in the combat composition in real life, compared to what it was! Apparently, all the same, significantly less than the initial amount wink
      3. bk316
        bk316 21 July 2022 17: 56
        -9
        Victor, tell me honestly, have you ever written articles? The real ones in scientific journals. The duty to prove the facts to which there are references in the article is the responsibility of the author, and not the opponent, and even more so the reader. Phrase
        Information is easily verified (if you want).

        this is a waste, sorry. In the scientific community, you would already be stigmatized.

        This is not about the statement itself, but about the fact that the author cannot write like that.
        1. antivirus
          antivirus 21 July 2022 20: 04
          +3
          What scientific articles! A tank is not an electron, you can't count it.
      4. aglet
        aglet 24 July 2022 11: 30
        -1
        "Information is easily verifiable (if you want to)."
        well, according to my data?
    4. Paladin
      Paladin 21 July 2022 16: 22
      +5
      I will support and clarify, the link to the data is precisely the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. Until now, the whole chain of references usually led to Wikipedia or a video in Tytube. Keep in mind the information that there was a bunch of cropped parts, incl. and storage bases for the withdrawn equipment from the GSVG, of course, it is difficult for the authors, it is easier to mount rhetorical questions.
      1. ViktorBiryukov
        21 July 2022 16: 23
        +15
        Especially for you. Link to the website of the Ministry of Defense, with numbers, according to the Ministry of Defense, how much equipment the Armed Forces of Ukraine had at the time of the start of the SVO. I hope you find the right paragraph yourself? https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/[email protected]
        1. Paladin
          Paladin 21 July 2022 16: 50
          +4
          So what? And the words..
          Of those who were in combat strength on February 24

          For you, an empty phrase, about the conservation of equipment, storage bases have you never heard? The fact that all this, with proper preservation and storage, can be put on wheels, caterpillars, wings, is that fantastic for you?
          Ahh, well, yes, namzhefsovrut))))))
          1. bk316
            bk316 21 July 2022 18: 03
            -11
            However - yes.
            In particular, this difference is huge for the Russian Federation.
            So the question to the author remains.
            After all, Viktor Biryukov made a statement that, if not proven, falls directly under Article 207.3.
            As an option, the recognition of one's wrong is a PUBLIC APPOINTMENT.

            Well, let's give time or immediately to the prosecutor's office?
            Gentlemen from the leadership of VO have a question for you.
          2. antivirus
            antivirus 21 July 2022 20: 06
            0
            The poet is not an accountant, do not pester him for nothing
        2. ism_ek
          ism_ek 21 July 2022 17: 10
          +8
          From those on February 24 in combat 2 tanks and other armored fighting vehicles destroyed 416 units; out of 1 field artillery pieces and mortars - 587 units; out of 1 MLRS - 509; out of 636 aircraft - 535, out of 163 helicopters - 152;

          You understand what it means in "combat strength".
          After the collapse of the USSR in Ukraine, the following remained in warehouses and storage bases:
          about 8700 tanks, 11 infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, 000 units of rocket and cannon artillery. The Air Force included 18 air armies, 000 air divisions, 4 air regiments and 2800 aircraftincluding strategic aviation.
          https://argumenti.ru/politics/n201/41550
          1. for
            for 21 July 2022 17: 59
            -3
            Quote: ism_ek
            After the collapse of the USSR in Ukraine, the following remained in warehouses and storage bases:
            about 8700 tanks, 11 infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, 000 units of rocket and cannon artillery. The Air Force included 18 air armies, 000 air divisions, 4 air regiments and 10 aircraft, including strategic aviation.

            So they sold it all, sold it, took it away, burned it, etc.
            1. EvilLion
              EvilLion 22 July 2022 10: 04
              +1
              Even if 25% of the tanks remained, this is more than 2000 units, and no one in the world wanted to buy the T-64.
        3. Vladimir61
          Vladimir61 21 July 2022 17: 40
          -16
          Quote: Viktor Biryukov
          Especially for you.

          Especially for VO, this is not the first public discredit on the part of the author in relation to the DLNR and NWO! It will be interesting how the main operators of the SVO Sladkov, Pegov, Solovyov, Simonyan and the security forces will react to this. I will try to send the link, skin and PDF to everyone!
          Criminal Code Article 207.3. Public dissemination of deliberately false information about the use of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, the exercise by state bodies of the Russian Federation of their powers
          1. Public dissemination under the guise of reliable reports of deliberately false information containing data on the use of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation in order to protect the interests of the Russian Federation and its citizens, maintaining international peace and security, as well as containing data on the exercise by state bodies of the Russian Federation of their powers outside territory of the Russian Federation for the said purposes, -
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 21 July 2022 18: 42
            +9
            Four million denunciations won't write themselves. laughing
            1. Vladimir61
              Vladimir61 21 July 2022 18: 55
              -13
              Quote: Engineer
              Four million denunciations won't write themselves
              Denunciations write in the corners! And I, did not run around all instances and sent an official appeal to the RF Ministry of Defense
              The letter sent by you on July 21.07.2022, XNUMX under the number ... will be processed by the mail server and registered within three days from the moment it is received by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 21 July 2022 18: 58
                +11
                Do not be distracted, write to everyone at all. Solovyov and Simonyan will not forget you.
                1. Vladimir61
                  Vladimir61 21 July 2022 19: 13
                  -11
                  Quote: Engineer
                  Do not be distracted, write to everyone at all.

                  The degree of truthfulness of a person is an indicator of the degree of his moral perfection. (L. Tolstoy). As for the author, under a pseudonym, then
                  Whoever does not tell the truth about himself cannot tell it about others.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 21 July 2022 19: 22
                    +11
                    The crook speaks of honesty, the murderer of mercy. Informer about moral perfection
                    Nothing new(s)
                    1. Vladimir61
                      Vladimir61 21 July 2022 20: 00
                      -12
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Informer about moral perfection
                      Not for you to judge my morality! Labeling the whistleblower, you're forgetting another category, the slanderer.
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 22 July 2022 10: 12
                        0
                        Don't rush like that.
                        Here, on a tip from you like fighters, scammers visited one well-known fighter for the cause of Novorossia
                        https://kenigtiger.livejournal.com/2167064.html
                        The Russian world is devouring itself

                        I ask you to treat with understanding (s)
                      2. Vladimir61
                        Vladimir61 22 July 2022 10: 45
                        -2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I ask you to treat with understanding (s)

                        Reported to the owners with the SBU?
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 22 July 2022 10: 55
                        +2
                        The hosts are needed by fans of Simonyan and Solovyov. They can't do without a hard hand
                      4. Vladimir61
                        Vladimir61 22 July 2022 11: 23
                        -3
                        Quote: Engineer
                        They can't do without a hard hand
                        Clearly, you work simply for bread and water. But I have the opportunity to ask a question and figure out who is lying. Be patient, it's not my fault that someone has to earn a "doughnut", and someone can afford free communication at any level!
                      5. Engineer
                        Engineer 22 July 2022 11: 37
                        +4
                        Wow, we've got haberdasher and cardinal here. A new version .
                      6. Vladimir61
                        Vladimir61 22 July 2022 11: 48
                        -2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Wow ...
                        Don't bother, it won't work! I am familiar with the tactics of such "moralists and democrats" at VO - to withdraw the interlocutor, and then scribble complaints to the administrator - "Sentry, insult!". Go in for "origami" and "choney chop", soothes.
              2. ViktorBiryukov
                21 July 2022 20: 48
                +6
                It is also necessary to block VO in the LPR, as Google was blocked today, this will definitely help defeat the enemy in Ukraine (sarcasm, in fact - no). You Lugansk people seem to have nothing else to do besides denunciations and intrigues. However, now I am sure that my article will be read in the Ministry of Defense, this was the main goal - to urge them to work more carefully with numbers - so thank you!
                1. Vladimir61
                  Vladimir61 21 July 2022 21: 04
                  -8
                  Quote: Viktor Biryukov
                  so thank you!
                  No need to thank, especially in advance!
                  And VO is read not only in Luhansk, but this does not mean that VO is positioned exclusively with you!
          2. victor50
            victor50 22 July 2022 09: 37
            +2
            [quote=Vladimir61][quote=ViktorBiryukov]Especially for you.[/quote]
            Especially for VO, this is not the first public discredit on the part of the author in relation to the DLNR and NWO! It will be interesting how the main operators of the SVO Sladkov, Pegov, Solovyov, Simonyan and the security forces will react to this. I will try to send the link, skin and PDF to everyone!
            [/ quote] [/ quote]
            In the 37th, you would have no price!
            1. Vladimir61
              Vladimir61 22 July 2022 10: 44
              -4
              Quote: victor50
              In the 37th, you would have no price!

              People like you, from the history of the USSR, except for the year 37, the dictator Stalin and the stagnation of Brezhnev, do not know anything else.
              Many have long noticed here that on some articles, flock like flies, the same personalities, which you will not notice in other topics. A peculiar swarm of special commentators!
              1. victor50
                victor50 22 July 2022 16: 28
                0
                Quote: Vladimir61
                People like you, from the history of the USSR, except for the year 37, the dictator Stalin and the stagnation of Brezhnev, do not know anything else.

                People like you always consider themselves the smartest, even if they didn’t hold anything in their hands except for the “kolobok”, where can I read it! laughing
                Quote: Vladimir61
                Many have long noticed here that on some articles, flock like flies, the same personalities, which you will not notice in other topics. A peculiar swarm of special commentators!

                Are you talking about yourself?!
        4. Foundling
          Foundling 22 July 2022 13: 20
          0
          Not. He won't find it. I think so. Apparently he lives in a vacuum. ..... With Konashenkov
    5. mikh-korsakov
      mikh-korsakov 21 July 2022 17: 14
      0
      And who can guarantee the accuracy of data on the armaments of Ukraine at the time of the start of the JMD? Something was decommissioned, something was hit and then restored. I imagine how Biryukov will point with a pointing finger at the unreliability of reports from the battlefield. Mr. Biryukov should be placed in the thick of things so that he can crawl over a wrecked enemy tank to determine if it is repairable. Who can guarantee the accuracy of data on weapons transferred to Ukraine by foreign states? And that's not it. Therefore, the moralizing tone of Mr. (Pan or whoever he is) Biryukov is inappropriate in this case. This does not negate the fact that the work of the information service of the Ministry of Defense is ugly, even if it is headed by a lieutenant general, but there are failures in another.
  4. S. Viktorovich
    S. Viktorovich 21 July 2022 16: 10
    +23
    In the morning they tell about the defeat of the target. For a few more days, the "affected" cannot count themselves. Nevertheless, the Konashenkoites will continue to add to the "enemy" losses. Lies pile on lies.
    1. Foundling
      Foundling 22 July 2022 13: 21
      +2
      The manufacturer of bayraktars did not even know how much he produced
  5. Ermak_Timofeich
    Ermak_Timofeich 21 July 2022 16: 12
    0
    voicing figures close to fantastic

    Do you want to take into account the equipment that was stored for a special period? And this "special period", oddly enough for the author, has come, and the equipment has been reactivated.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  6. value
    value 21 July 2022 16: 15
    +11
    The calculations of the author of the article are logical, I always believed that the obviously implausible reports are designed to cover up the mediocrity and stupidity of our generals, the unsuccessful planning of the SVO. And replacing real victories with fictional ones is a direct path to defeat.
    1. nnm
      nnm 21 July 2022 16: 24
      +7
      Yes, these are the features of statistics in any armed confrontation. All parties, not even always consciously lie, but this is simply the principle of counting: each link in the chain, starting with the platoon one, “rounds” the numbers a little. And so at every stage. In the end, what you get is what you get. The Ministry of Defense, on the other hand, every day cannot physically control whether each platoon sergeant lied or not.
      And on the front line, in many ways, it doesn’t matter what to write in the reports - there are other priorities in which the "beauty" of the numbers is not important.
      They wrote a lot and don’t care - the main thing is that the battalion doesn’t have any more nonsense, then you have to puzzle over how to position the fighters, feed them, send them to the rear, get supplies.
      1. value
        value 21 July 2022 17: 14
        +4
        The problem is, when reports don't line up with common sense, even when the Department of Defense tells the truth, you can't be sure of it.
        1. nnm
          nnm 21 July 2022 17: 17
          +7
          So that's the problem!
          People can simply stop trusting official information. And during the NWO, reducing the level of trust in the Defense Ministry is far from the best option.
      2. victor50
        victor50 22 July 2022 09: 43
        +2
        Quote: nnm
        The Ministry of Defense, on the other hand, every day cannot physically control whether each platoon platoon lied or not.

        It cannot, yes, but it is necessary to organize it in such a way that, despite the views from below, the leadership has an objective picture. Or is it not the duty of the Ministry of Defense to organize this way? Worse, if the MO itself believes in science fiction received from the front line.
  7. Svarog
    Svarog 21 July 2022 16: 18
    -12
    The answer to the question of where this figure came from and what this figure is based on hangs in the air.

    I won’t be surprised if our hucksters supply planes .. old .. loot drives, as objective reality shows.
    1. military_cat
      military_cat 21 July 2022 16: 29
      +15
      It's amazing that it's easier for you to keep an eye on these ridiculous numbers of hucksters selling planes from under the floor than banal swindlers.
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 21 July 2022 16: 32
        +1
        Quote: military_cat
        It's amazing that it's easier for you to keep an eye on these ridiculous numbers of hucksters selling planes from under the floor than banal swindlers.

        I accept this and that. A year ago, there was an article that said that somehow, at the guarded airfield where the planes were stationed, equipment was removed from them, for many millions of rubles ... which prevents them from decommissioning the plane and selling it to Poland or any other country, after which he safely ends up with the Nazis .. there are a lot of examples in history, Chechnya .. if you remember. And they always had registrations, and here, too, everything is possible .. we have a country of opportunities .. wassat
    2. shonsu
      shonsu 21 July 2022 16: 51
      +1
      Nowadays, it is difficult to even cross the road in the wrong place. You'll run into a fine.
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 21 July 2022 16: 54
        +1
        Quote: shonsu
        Nowadays, it is difficult to even cross the road in the wrong place. You'll run into a fine.

        A mere mortal, yes .. but with the right connections .. they won’t even stop you in the trash, and if they stop, they will escort you home with flashing lights ..
        1. shonsu
          shonsu 22 July 2022 10: 36
          0
          I'm afraid you are confusing the selfish interest of corrupt cops with the interests of the state.
  8. South Ukrainian
    South Ukrainian 21 July 2022 16: 19
    0
    Quote: ism_ek
    According to official data from the same Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, at the time of the military operation, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had 152 aircraft, 149 helicopters, 36 Bayraktar TB2 UAVs, 2 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 416 MLRS, 535 field artillery pieces and mortars.

    And where is the confidence that just so much equipment was available at the beginning of the NWO? During hostilities, it is difficult to calculate the exact amount of destroyed enemy equipment. Surely, the Russian Ministry of Defense "adds a little", but who knows for 100% what and how much Ukraine has received from "friends" in 8 years.
  9. Uprun
    Uprun 21 July 2022 16: 24
    +2
    And yet the West revealed real supplies to you ...., this is a military secret. Can you also tell us the places of storage of weapons and ammunition, the concentration of heavy weapons with coordinates? How much Soviet technology did the former Warsaw Pact countries have? How many, in the heat of promises to replace them with modern NATO equipment, did they push to the outskirts of Soviet weapons and ammunition? All your data is drawn from the media. Shit mathematicians.
  10. betta
    betta 21 July 2022 16: 27
    +8
    It is necessary to take into account that they are repairing after being knocked out. And this is not enough.
  11. Sergey Obraztsov
    Sergey Obraztsov 21 July 2022 16: 28
    +9
    It’s harder with planes, but with armored vehicles ... It’s not the destruction that is recorded, but the hit, in principle, in some cases. Then the equipment is transported, repaired and again goes into battle. Also captured tanks were probably wrapped up in this number. And in war, equipment can change owners several times. And again, the MO will destroy our captured armored vehicles and add one more unit to itself.
    I do not claim that these are all the reasons and our Defense Ministry is absolutely honest in dealing with losses, but these nuances also need to be taken into account.
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 21 July 2022 16: 55
      -3
      Quote: Sergey Obraztsov
      Airplanes are harder

      I think that in the initial data on aircraft, civil aviation was not taken into account. But these aircraft began to be actively used for the delivery of weapons, transporting the wounded. These planes were also shot down, so there was a certain discrepancy in the numbers.
  12. House 25 Sq. 380
    House 25 Sq. 380 21 July 2022 16: 32
    -11
    While, following the figures of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation about 253 downed aircraft

    This phrase alone betrays in the Author a person who does not know how to work with information ....
    For the purity of the experiment, I will not even suggest which word is the key here ...

    As a result, an article that is not bad as planned - if it is paper - can be safely thrown into the bucket ...

    Well, and separately, so as not to "get up from the couch twice": the attempt to "appoint" Konashenkov responsible for providing reliable information to MI6 was touched ...
    1. ViktorBiryukov
      21 July 2022 16: 40
      +17
      And I was waiting for you to look into my thread :) How is your forecast that “after Mariupol, the Armed Forces of Ukraine will no longer deliberately land in cities”? Need to understand Severodonetsk, Rubizhne and Lysichansk are not considered? Has the enemy already left Seversk, Artemovsk (Bakhmut), Soledar and Slavyansk?
      1. House 25 Sq. 380
        House 25 Sq. 380 21 July 2022 16: 42
        -11
        Need to understand Severodonetsk and Rubizhne are not considered? Has the enemy already left Seversk, Artemovsk (Bakhmut), Soledar and Slavyansk?

        Do you want me to make fun of you?

        Or talk about today's topic?
        hi
        1. nnm
          nnm 21 July 2022 17: 10
          +17
          Colleague, until you start to make fun - forgive me, but I don’t quite understand why you are ready to throw the author’s article into the scrap with only one phrase? To be honest, I did not quite understand what exactly, why and on the basis of what data do you disagree?
          1. House 25 Sq. 380
            House 25 Sq. 380 21 July 2022 17: 14
            -11
            Colleague, until you start to make fun of. Forgive me, but I don’t quite understand - why are you ready to throw away the author’s article in just one phrase? To be honest, I did not quite understand what exactly, why and on the basis of what data do you disagree?

            You know, there is such a thing: marker....
            It happens that you read something like decent material, and then - bam! - and you understand: it's not worth a penny, it's empty ...
            Marker .... I even quoted with this marker.
            It's like a theater critic writing zhY-shY...
            This is not about literacy in the common sense, but about a marker: a literary critic does not know how to work with the WORD...
            After all, even a person who does not know the rules of the Russian language, who has re-read a bunch of books, begins to write correctly due to "innate literacy", which in fact is a consequence of love for the book word ...
            Do you think he can be trusted to evaluate the WORD? Explain?

            It's like a Christian preacher who can't read: "in the beginning it was...."...
            hi
            1. nnm
              nnm 21 July 2022 17: 19
              +16
              Tell me, please, when the interlocutor does not directly answer a direct and simple question:
              Quote: nnm
              with what exactly, why and on the basis of what data do you disagree?

              Is it a marker or not yet?
              1. House 25 Sq. 380
                House 25 Sq. 380 21 July 2022 17: 21
                -12
                Not yet...
                Because the quote is incomplete...
                hi
                1. nnm
                  nnm 21 July 2022 17: 22
                  +13
                  Unlike your answer, right?))
                  1. House 25 Sq. 380
                    House 25 Sq. 380 21 July 2022 17: 27
                    -13
                    My answer was about total Your text, and you quoted the last phrase from it to me ...

                    As a result, the normal conversation that began with you turned into empty ping-pong with phrases ...
                    So, with this intention you entered into a dialogue with me ....
                    hi
                    1. nnm
                      nnm 21 July 2022 17: 30
                      +10
                      Sorry, please, I forgot to explain - I just decided that it was obvious: when I realized that your claims to the article (but rather to the author) come down not to its content, but to the form, then our dialogue simply ceased to be interesting to me and I thought we were done with it.
                      Sorry for not stating this obvious situation.
                      Thanks for the dialogue.
                      1. House 25 Sq. 380
                        House 25 Sq. 380 21 July 2022 17: 31
                        -8
                        It is to the content: I even highlighted a piece from the article (for example) ...
                        hi
  13. Stas157
    Stas157 21 July 2022 16: 33
    +6
    How many APU vehicles were destroyed

    The main question is how much the APU still has left?
  14. nik-mazur
    nik-mazur 21 July 2022 16: 33
    +3
    ... at the time of the military operation, the Armed Forces of Ukraine had 152 aircraft ...
    Serviceable, in service, about which it was definitely known. And how much was in storage in a state from “can be started” to complete scrap metal, most likely, they did not even know in the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense.
    Actually, we also have 72 T-1600 tanks in service and about 7000 somewhere in storage ...
  15. Yrec
    Yrec 21 July 2022 16: 36
    +5
    As for armored vehicles, it is not entirely correct to say "destroyed". Destroyed means unrecoverable. And in 3 cases out of 4, equipment, especially tanks, can be restored. For the tank is completely destroyed only when the BC is blown up or completely burned out from the inside. And it doesn't happen that often. By the way, during WWII, German tanks were so "destroyed" up to 10 times, so that they were completely restored at factories almost from 0.
  16. Alekseev
    Alekseev 21 July 2022 16: 36
    +12
    At all times, the reports of the "information bureau", and for everyone, did not correspond to reality.
    But at the same time, it must be taken into account that thoughtless propaganda will eventually raise questions and a complete loss of confidence among citizens. You don't even need to be a lieutenant general to understand this.
    As for the true state of affairs, it can be assessed by indirect factors.
    Such as the intensity of flights and strikes of enemy aircraft, enemy artillery fire, etc.
    So, for example, information about the frequent destruction and capture of Polish T-72 "clones" indirectly indicates that there are really few of our own tanks in dill. The creation of motorized (rifle) brigades and battalions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on ordinary trucks also testifies to the shortage of AFVs.
    And the fact that our aircraft does not bomb stations and bridges with conventional bombs directly broadcasts that the dill has air defense systems, although they were defeated a lot. If the losses of air defense systems were small, then the strikes of the KR (NATOs probably warn about launches as early as possible) would be ineffective.
    Etc.
    We are unlikely to find out the true "arithmetic" even after the end of the NMD, as today there are still disputes about losses in WWII operations and post-war local wars.
  17. Cartalon
    Cartalon 21 July 2022 16: 37
    +6
    In such reports, everyone always lies, it was and will be so, we will find out the real numbers in 50 years.
    1. Waterways 672
      Waterways 672 21 July 2022 16: 52
      0
      “Your Excellency, how many Turks should be listed as dead?” - Write more. Why pity them, bastard!
      Classic...
  18. shonsu
    shonsu 21 July 2022 16: 48
    +3
    As in the film "Peculiarities of the National Hunt", who killed the elk? Me, me and me, total 3 moose. And when they found out that this was Kuzmich's cow, then no one. As a result, she got up and left.
    Konashenkov sums up the data that field commanders give him. He himself does not personally check each unit. Well, the fact that the tank was destroyed not with one shot, but with three, how would he know? But everyone who fired at the tank will surely declare the destruction. Plus something else can be repaired. It is more difficult with airplanes, and therefore the difference is not so great.
    1. Rusticolus
      Rusticolus 22 July 2022 08: 37
      0
      It is more difficult with airplanes, and therefore the difference is not so great.
      With airplanes, everything is more complicated and easier at the same time. Somehow there was a video showing what was left of more than a dozen aircraft destroyed at once in one blow at the airfield. And it would seem that here is a specific video fact. How can it be wrong here? But! Watching how and what to count. I just looked, by sight alone it could be said that at least two-thirds of the aircraft at the time of the strike were already clearly not combat-ready. So how do you count them then? You can write, there were 3-4 combat-ready aircraft. And they destroyed more than 10. Or vice versa. There were more than 10 aircraft, but only 3-4 were destroyed, plus 8 heaps of spare parts, but we don’t count this. And this is with seemingly obvious destruction. Yes, even in aerial combat, was hit and was shot down is not the same thing. The plane can be shot down, but did not crash and made an emergency landing. Do we add one? Of course yes. And the plane that has landed is standing in the field in appearance, even whole. And then, from behind the fishing line, a takn leaves, oppa unexpected, direct fire on you so that it would be in the trash. So the crew of the tank wrote down the same to themselves on the account of the destroyed aircraft. And the Ukrainians, in general, will write down that the plane was gone, which means you can’t say for sure that it was shot down. That is, in general, it will not be counted even once.
  19. Tagan
    Tagan 21 July 2022 16: 49
    -1
    Quote: Victor Jnnjdfy
    These figures were voiced by Konashenkov. The author himself did not invent anything.
    There, ours lied about the fact that many enemy aircraft were destroyed on the ground, ...

    A lot is a loose concept. Do you think they could not be destroyed on earth?
    Everyone lies. Can't ours?))
  20. Dmitry Karabanov
    Dmitry Karabanov 21 July 2022 16: 54
    +2
    I'm not sure about the reasoning behind this article. In terms of aircraft, in any case, the Armed Forces of Ukraine have never officially spoken about the number of aircraft. There is also Soviet data on more than 1100 aircraft left outside of Russia after the crash of the ATS. If we assume that at least a third of them will be transferred to Nezalezhnaya, then at such a pace they can be shot down for another half a year. Surely, the same situation with armored vehicles. So there is no need to strongly doubt the gigantic army of ukrofascists and NATO. And all this is the result of the betrayal of the labeled bear and the drunken wrestler! After all, even in those days of unbridled love with the West, smart people said that equipment should be exported to Russia, as the assignee of the USSR! Well, at least the nuclear weapons were taken out!
    1. Herman 4223
      Herman 4223 21 July 2022 21: 27
      0
      1100 outside of Russia?
      2800 aircraft only on the territory of Ukraine, of which 1100 are sick aircraft.
      Su-27,25,24 and MiG-29 minus about 450 sold and broken remained on the territory of Ukraine by the beginning of the operation. Arguments and analytics in article 0.
  21. Ros 56
    Ros 56 21 July 2022 16: 55
    0
    Yes, it's certainly an interesting question. And here is the problem with the answer. recourse
  22. ALMO
    ALMO 21 July 2022 17: 01
    +4
    The accounting reports of Konnoshenko strongly begin to remind everyone of the well-known lamentations of the robbed Shpak.
  23. valera75
    valera75 21 July 2022 17: 03
    -2
    Maybe our intelligence and other informants collected insufficient information about the availability of equipment in the Armed Forces of Ukraine at the beginning of the NMD, and there were noticeably more of its availability? Plus, something was later repaired and returned to service, hence such figures are now from our MO. Maybe our MO is not lying at all, it was simply inaccurate information from the beginning?
  24. Vadmir
    Vadmir 21 July 2022 17: 03
    +5
    The data is taken from the reports of commanders at the battlefields. They are always overpriced - this is the law of any war. Let us recall the data on the destroyed tanks and aircraft of the Second World War.
    For example, the data on downed enemy aircraft was overestimated three times, and both our pilots and the Germans did this, and even the overestimation was almost the same.
    Firstly, the eyes of fear are large and it always seems that there are more opponents. Secondly, any plane that began to smoke, began to descend and turned to its own, was automatically considered to be shot down. If the plane was fired from the ground, then the anti-aircraft gunners also added to it. In doing so, he could sit down safely and be repaired.
    For tanks, the same story, if the enemy attacks at the junction of two parts, both parts report on his destruction. Any stopped tank, especially one abandoned by the crew, is considered destroyed. At the same time, it can easily be towed to the rear and repaired.
    UAV data is also not always possible to perceive objectively, everything is visible from above, but not exactly. For example, the sensational video from the UAV about the destruction of HIMARS, it shows how a certain tilt truck is destroyed, I do not see the outlines of HIMARS on this video, but someone saw - who is wrong?
    Or do we see equipment in the frames from above, then it will be covered with artillery fire, everything is covered in dust and smoke, is the equipment destroyed? If it is armored, and there were no direct hits, then it is quite possible that the equipment remained intact, and the UAV had already flown off to look for new targets, but the report included data on the destroyed units of equipment.
    Accurate data on losses both in personnel and in equipment will become known only after the war, and will be declassified years later, if not decades, and these data will be incorrect, because it will be a compilation of their data with enemy data.
    It is customary to underestimate your own losses.
    1. ALMO
      ALMO 21 July 2022 17: 07
      +3
      Yes, this overestimation is painfully striking and causes distrust of the source of information, and this is no good
    2. Dmitry Donyakin
      Dmitry Donyakin 21 July 2022 18: 37
      -3
      Quite right! I wanted to write something similar myself. During hostilities, what objective data can there be? The commission must be sent. “Stop, stop! Don’t shoot! We’ll evaluate that tank now. So, it can be brewed, it can be changed .. Let’s consider this tank destroyed? Vote! torn off, but breathing. Will they be taken to the hospital or not? What will the council say? Rather alive? So, in the "XNUMXth". And this one, with the intestines? It is unlikely that it will last long? We write it down as destroyed. That's it, continue further fighting."
    3. Thorvlobnor IV
      Thorvlobnor IV 21 July 2022 19: 16
      -1
      And where are the Ukrainian tanks being repaired, if all the relevant plants have been bombed long ago? And the same question for airplanes. If you have at least a thousand aircraft and tanks in storage, you will not collect a single serviceable one from them in Uncle Vasya's garage.
    4. Rusticolus
      Rusticolus 22 July 2022 08: 52
      0
      Firstly, the eyes of fear are large and it always seems that there are more opponents. Secondly, any plane that began to smoke, began to descend and turned to its own, was automatically considered shot down.
      So it was only with the Germans. From here they have such personal accounts of victories beyond the limits. Have us same like already with 42goda. The downing of the aircraft had to be confirmed. Either ground units, or an air reconnaissance officer was sent to the area of ​​​​the fall in order to confirm the presence of remnants. And even a photo machine gun in battle did not guarantee that the downing would be counted.
      1. Vadmir
        Vadmir 22 July 2022 16: 17
        0
        The downing of the aircraft had to be confirmed.
        This is for the pilot's personal account, for which he received money and awards. Money, as you know, they love an account, they just didn’t pay anyone. Reporting is another matter. Paper will endure everything. After the war, German archives showed that data on destroyed aircraft and German data on lost and decommissioned aircraft did not match by about three times. By about the same amount, the German reports on downed Soviet aircraft differed from our data on the loss of equipment. These are not my guesses, but the data of historians who dug into these archives.
        1. Rusticolus
          Rusticolus 22 July 2022 19: 14
          0
          So no one argues that in the reports the Germans greatly underestimated the losses. The Fuhrer could easily put them against the wall for heavy losses. And so, well, it seems like they are, but where - we do not know. And there, another cauldron, a retreat. In general, the war will write off everything.
          1. Vadmir
            Vadmir 22 July 2022 21: 00
            0
            The Fuhrer could easily put them against the wall for heavy losses.
            This is not about reports to the top or the press, but about the documentation of the rear services on repairs, write-offs of the current number of equipment in the troops and requests from industry to make up for losses, the information there is as realistic as possible.
            In general, the war will write off everything.
            This is for the commanders of regiments and divisions, but the rear services have a different approach, they have a balance and material values.
            And then, after the war, data became known about how many aircraft were produced, and so they were shot down more than three times produced. And there was no point in underestimating production statistics. On the contrary, in our country, for failure to fulfill the plan, they could be shot according to the laws of wartime. The Germans also had a strong responsibility for underproduction.
            1. Rusticolus
              Rusticolus 22 July 2022 21: 47
              0
              In this case, the amount of destroyed equipment must be counted from the units produced, plus repair units, minus, in the case of the Germans, those that ended up in trophies. That's all this and will be less real figure. Losses among trophies will not be taken into account. There percentage is not that big. Although for the sake of truth, he was the same. In the case of a union, from what was produced, it is necessary to minus the amount of equipment that remained in service at the time the database ended. By the way, the number is not small. Well, what, where, and how it was destroyed, this question is no longer so important. The balance of the rear, it is also not an indicator. The same repair units could both leave the balance sheet as retired ones, and return back, and it may not even be in the same part. And this is not counting any disbanding, reorganization and change in the type of equipment. It seems to me that there will be even more confusion here. Again, do not forget about lend-lease in the case of an alliance, and the production of equipment outside of Germany in the case of the Germans.
  25. Anton Yu
    Anton Yu 21 July 2022 17: 04
    +3
    Look at the Ukrainian statistics on our equipment. Are there real numbers? I don't think.
    1. nnm
      nnm 21 July 2022 17: 14
      +4
      Yes, no one said that. To their statistics, except for the delirium of the insane, no one in an adequate state applies (according to their data, our losses in drugs by the dead will amount to 40 thousand people from day to day. Therefore, it makes no sense to talk about ukrobrede). But we are talking about how our Defense Ministry informs us. I would like to hope that we are voicing much more adequate data.
  26. cooper
    cooper 21 July 2022 17: 05
    -9
    Well, why doesn’t the Russian leadership declare Nazi Zelensky a war criminal and terrorist, the so-called. The Armed Forces of Ukraine - a terrorist gang, and the so-called. Ukraine-terrorist country?? With all the consequences..Hello, Putin?!
    1. Vadmir
      Vadmir 21 July 2022 17: 21
      +15
      APU - a terrorist gang
      Because it is a regular army. Yes, she is fighting against us. But there are the same soldiers as ours. They carry out orders, and this is the duty of any soldier. And for the most part, they were born after the collapse of the USSR, in an independent country. They defend their homeland as ours defend theirs. Personally, I am jarred by the fact that the media began to call them militants. This belittles the successes of the Russian Armed Forces, which now, having a numerical minority, are destroying the second most powerful army in Europe, equipped with all types of weapons and trained by US and NATO military instructors, and not at all chasing bandits.
      1. Rusticolus
        Rusticolus 22 July 2022 09: 24
        -2
        They carry out orders, and this is the duty of any soldier.
        Bullshit. No one is obliged to carry out known criminal orders in advance. And they are doing this. Which puts them in the ranks of terrorists and war criminals. As well as those who support and sponsor them. Do you really think that if these Nazis had not been hiding in cities, taking civilians hostage, they would have been lisping with them for so long? And our Armed Forces do not care a bit. All this denazification, together with disinfestation and deratization, could be completed in a month. Completely liberating almost the entire territory with it from everyone. And from the Nazis, and from their accomplices, and from sympathizers. And there are generally no others.
        1. Vadmir
          Vadmir 22 July 2022 16: 24
          0
          And from the Nazis, and from their accomplices, and from sympathizers. And there are generally no others.
          A very bloodthirsty statement. By the way, this tactic is also a war crime. And the statement that all the inhabitants of Mariupol, Popasnaya, Severodonetsk are Nazi sympathizers is not true, mostly Russians live there, many of the old people there had sons and grandsons in the armies of the DPR and LPR fought.
          1. Rusticolus
            Rusticolus 22 July 2022 19: 21
            0
            That's why we've been there for half a year already. At least we could finish everything in a month. And all sorts of Mariupoli and Severodonetsk would not even have to be touched. They would have demolished Kyiv and Lvov, and that would have been the end of it. From the rest of the remaining places, all the Nazis would instantly drapanuli to Poland. And those who sympathize would immediately change their colors and greet them with flowers. And some of them would have rushed in the forefront to catch the remaining Nazis in the forests and ditches.
  27. Mikhail Drabkin
    Mikhail Drabkin 21 July 2022 17: 08
    +1
    —- In the press of the Anglo-Saxons and Teutons, I DID NOT FIND criticism of the MO figures. Even when in a day, in the MO report 10 days ago, the number of “destroyed” art guns increased by 1000 !!
    --- Conclusion: absolute figures are not trusted anywhere because they cannot be verified, by definition they are unreliable.
    -- Comparison of daily "data" is useful as a qualitative metric about the nature and intensity of hostilities, nothing more.
  28. Gardamir
    Gardamir 21 July 2022 17: 08
    +4
    The trick is that when you read about repeatedly shot down Ukrainian planes and burned tanks, you wonder who the Russian troops are fighting against. If everything is destroyed and captured.
  29. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 21 July 2022 17: 11
    +1
    The question raised in the note is certainly an interesting one. In my opinion, the fact is that a material reward is due for the destroyed equipment. This was also the case during WWII. Well, the Sumerians may well place plywood planes on airfields, rubber tanks in the field, and so on.
  30. rocket757
    rocket757 21 July 2022 17: 14
    0
    About information policy (instead of conclusions)
    . The fog of war plus the fantasies of many at once.
    How does this affect the situation in the rear of the opposing sides???
    Yes, as always DIFFERENT!
    On the front line, the fighters see what is, feel it all on themselves and they have no illusions, at least the majority!
    And we, the townsfolk and couch experts, can only wait and count, if someone is very interested in this.
    1. Vadmir
      Vadmir 21 July 2022 17: 34
      +6
      On the front line, fighters see what is, feel it all on themselves and they have no illusions
      You are wrong, it is there on the front line that you can’t see it very clearly, very often the assessments are distorted by a tense mental state. For example, during the first months of the Second World War, the Germans constantly complained that enemy, that is, Soviet aviation, was constantly hanging over them, and their own planes were not visible at all. In almost the same words, only ours wrote and reported about German aviation. It wasn't until after the war that things really became clear.
      If you ask two fighters who fought shoulder to shoulder about the fight just completed, there will be two different stories. These are the features of human perception.
      Big seen in the distance.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 21 July 2022 18: 44
        -1
        Distances are different and the farther, the more all sorts of distortions appear.
        I can imagine that some analytical centers that have access to the cause of information can more accurately represent what and how everything is happening, but closer to the sofa, everything is very approximate.
  31. AdAstra
    AdAstra 21 July 2022 17: 16
    +6
    So Konashenkov in briefings says destroyed or not? Personally, I hear the word "destroyed" from him. And if it is destroyed, then this word has a specific interpretation, and not 10 muddy and vague ones. And then the planes are shot down, shot down, and they keep appearing and appearing. Probably multiply by division. You can say the same about almost everything else. And about the numbers before the start, "ardent greetings" to the "professionals" from intelligence.
    1. Nastia makarova
      Nastia makarova 22 July 2022 12: 22
      -4
      the tank was knocked out but it was repaired and it gets into the report !!! learn materiel!!!
  32. Alexey Lantukh
    Alexey Lantukh 21 July 2022 17: 18
    +2
    What does destroyed mean. The rocket hit the tank. Or hit a mine and tore off the skating rink. It fired up or didn't fire up. However, it did not completely burn down, but the crew extinguished it. It was then sent for repair and repaired. And this tank has already been classified as destroyed. Let's remember the Battle of Kursk. The Prokhorovka field remained with the Germans. According to eyewitnesses, explosions took place all night. German sappers blew up our wrecked tanks. After our field was liberated, almost all the tanks were suitable only for remelting. Here it can be destroyed a second time, or even a third. There are also subscriptions.
    1. Vladimir M
      Vladimir M 21 July 2022 17: 58
      +1
      It’s clear with tanks, but this doesn’t work with planes
      1. Nastia makarova
        Nastia makarova 22 July 2022 12: 23
        -2
        the same with aircraft, especially since there is a battle at long distances
        1. Vladimir M
          Vladimir M 22 July 2022 12: 52
          -1
          One tank can be hit 3-5 times or more. (to hit does not mean to destroy), therefore, there are 100 tanks in stock, 300 were hit. This will not work with an airplane
          1. Nastia makarova
            Nastia makarova 22 July 2022 12: 56
            -3
            fired a rocket at the plane and reported on the defeat, so the figure went up
            1. Vladimir M
              Vladimir M 22 July 2022 13: 00
              0
              In fact, there should be objective control, which confirms the hit of a rocket on an aircraft (photo machine guns were installed in the Second World War, plus confirmation from the ground). If, after hitting a tank, it can remain combat-ready or it can be repaired, then the plane, as a rule, after being hit by a rocket, does not fly anywhere.
              1. Nastia makarova
                Nastia makarova 22 July 2022 13: 13
                -3
                read lectures about the Second World War))) photographic fixation was very rare, the rocket might not have hit the plane, no one will fly and look downed or not
  33. Seamaster
    Seamaster 21 July 2022 17: 37
    +12
    Well, and reports on the losses of personnel over the past 2-3 days? There - 200 people with one blow, here - 300 people with one blow, today in Konstantinovka 600 (!!!!!!!) people with one blow. Yes, hit the "Caliber" in the column at the parade on Red Square - you won't kill so many at the same time. ALL Ukrainian propaganda does not do as much harm as Konoshenkov's chatter.
    1. Vladimir M
      Vladimir M 21 July 2022 17: 53
      0
      It would be better if this Konashenkov talked less, it would be more useful
    2. Nastia makarova
      Nastia makarova 22 July 2022 12: 24
      -4
      mind turn on
    3. Serg4545
      Serg4545 23 July 2022 09: 28
      0
      Quote: Seamaster
      today in Konstantinovka 600 (!!!!!!!) people with one blow. Yes, hit the "Caliber" in the column at the parade on Red Square - you won't kill so many at the same time.


      But what about the facts that contradict your private opinion?
      Here's a fact for you:
      October 23, 1983, Beirut. A suicide bomber in a car with a homemade bomb (made from fertilizer) blew himself up near the fence of the base, where the barracks of the UN forces were located.
      More than 300 soldiers (Americans and French) died.
      Here is a concrete fact for you, how several hundred military men were destroyed with one blow.
      So why can't a cruise missile with REAL POWERFUL explosives, hitting a building with a higher number of storeys (that is, more troops can be accommodated per unit area), destroy more people?
      It's a pretty boring reality in my opinion.
      And this is even excluding such additional possible factors. Like the presence in this building (or nearby) of an ammunition depot that could detonate from the initial explosion and greatly increase the damage.
      Or the rapid emergence of a powerful fire as a result of an explosion. Because of which many people could die, even those who were not affected by the explosion.
  34. Alex Kron
    Alex Kron 21 July 2022 17: 38
    -3
    Gouging everything without counting.
  35. for
    for 21 July 2022 17: 47
    +2
    In general, there are certain questions about information policy. Giving data that is not entirely true to reality on the amount of destroyed equipment, the press service of the Moscow Region, first of all, shoots itself in the foot, because it does not present itself in the best light

    Not everyone wants to count.
    Some are satisfied with these numbers, knowing them "credibility"
    I am surprised by the accuracy of the killed and wounded manpower.
    1. Iris
      Iris 21 July 2022 18: 50
      +4
      And the mercenaries were counted without exception, just that the phones were not indicated. But artillery brigades can not be found ....
  36. Vladimir M
    Vladimir M 21 July 2022 17: 47
    +2
    Of course, Konashenkov screwed up with the planes. Okay, tanks can be hit 3-5 times each (tanks can be dragged away for repair, even if the tank is not on the move but with a working gun - you can use it), the same thing with drones - the same homemade products can be written into drones. But it won’t work like that with airplanes. It’s definitely impossible to fly a Su-25 to Kharkov from Polish airfields. And another question, where do they get so many pilots? I doubt very much that Ukrainian pilots are all kamikazes without exception.
  37. Sedoy
    Sedoy 21 July 2022 17: 50
    +2
    Western intelligence services (the same MI-6) are well aware of the real state of affairs, both in the Armed Forces of Ukraine and in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, so it is difficult to deceive them in such a simple way.


    if you voice the data of mi-6 you will be imprisoned for slandering the morph... :)
    and what's funny - this data is in open sources and even on resources that are not banned by Rosnadzor ...
    those. everyone who is interested in cuishu has long been familiar with them ...
    but the clowning continues...
    1. Herman 4223
      Herman 4223 21 July 2022 21: 07
      -1
      And is it really true?
  38. parusnik
    parusnik 21 July 2022 18: 09
    +9
    Yes, judging by the reports, so much equipment and personnel have been ground that, in theory, the troops should already be in the Carpathian region.
  39. Engineer
    Engineer 21 July 2022 18: 23
    +8
    I read the comments and wonder
    Has the Deep Establishment begun to suspect something?
    At first, they doubt the veracity of the reports. What's next? Doubt the reasons to start a special operation? And then, God forbid, they remember who started it.
    Troubled times are coming, comrade-gentlemen-citizens
    1. Nastia makarova
      Nastia makarova 22 July 2022 12: 25
      -5
      stupid people wrote this
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 22 July 2022 12: 33
        +2
        Oh, finally the smart people began to write. Now full house
  40. Altmann
    Altmann 21 July 2022 18: 25
    +8
    As a foreigner, I take the words of General Konashenko seriously. In our press it is not so, rather the opposite. They know everything in the English press, they were everywhere and they are the best, I really don’t know where the truth is, but somehow I don’t add up the numbers, many of them are not confirmed by anything. It's just that Ukrainians are better at politics. As an example, I will cite the sinking of the cruiser Moskva, the information was strange to say the least, and the case with Buchi, so this village is really understood abroad as a massacre. We need to work better. I would almost say that there is a lack of political or, better to say, press workers? am
  41. Iris
    Iris 21 July 2022 18: 29
    +5
    Very topical stuff! It is clear that in any war, both sides underestimate their losses and overstate those of others, but there must be a limit. Defined by common sense. Otherwise, it leads directly to the opposite goal - loss of trust in official reports and attempts to find the truth elsewhere. In this regard, I recalled the fate of one minister in the last government of Saddam Hussein. His name was Mohammed al-Sahhaf, before heading the Ministry of Information, he was Iraq's ambassador to the UN. So - he is the only one of the members of the Council of the Revolutionary Command of Iraq, who was not arrested. Even Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz died in prison as a "war criminal". And this "chief pi-dobol", as ordinary Iraqis called him among themselves, was delivered to the UAE by an American military aircraft along with his family! The Americans were very grateful to him for his help. In the Emirates, he lived a long comfortable life and died recently. . .
  42. Iris
    Iris 21 July 2022 18: 47
    0
    There is one more crafty moment - tanks and other armored vehicles. That is, the T-64 and the BRDM and MTLB, which make their way from the AKM, are thrown into one heap! But what a number! It's a pity that Ukrainians have few Hummers and M-113s, otherwise it would have been 6000!
  43. Dart2027
    Dart2027 21 July 2022 19: 10
    -1
    We do not know what methods the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation uses when counting the destroyed military equipment and combat aircraft of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. However, these methods raise serious questions regarding the reliability of the announced figures.
    The author does not know about such a thing as warehouses.
  44. Herman 4223
    Herman 4223 21 July 2022 19: 45
    -6
    I expected at least some analysis in the article, to start with airplanes. After the collapse of the USSR, Ukraine got: instant 29, 220 cars, 30 of which were sold or broken. The rest don't go anywhere. Su-24 170 vehicles, Su-25 90 vehicles (20 sold 10 broken), Su-27 40 vehicles (five sold, 1 broken). Only these cars, with the deduction of four and a half hundred sold and broken! Spare parts for aircraft are supplied from abroad, which was bragged about in the United States in April. But there are other aircraft, there are aircraft supplied from abroad. And why did everyone decide that the figures for the supplied weapons are true and not underestimated for propaganda purposes, for example?
    And in the article there is only snot and conclusions, ah, they lie to us.
  45. Maestro Games
    Maestro Games 21 July 2022 20: 17
    +3
    Why be surprised? If on March 29, 2022, the liberated territory was approximately twice as large as on July 20, 2022! And this is after “goodwill gestures”! This information can be verified, everything is in the public domain!
    1. Nastia makarova
      Nastia makarova 22 July 2022 12: 26
      -5
      you are talking nonsense, driving hundreds of kilometers is not freeing the territory
  46. YOUR.
    YOUR. 21 July 2022 20: 30
    +1
    About UAV losses. All types are taken into account, including commercially produced and artisanal drones. Also, according to data from the network, volunteers and sponsors for the armed formations of Ukraine purchased 1 DJI quadrocopters. This manufacturer, like, get rich ...
  47. Gendy
    Gendy 21 July 2022 20: 53
    +5
    Quote: Vladimir61
    Quote: Viktor Biryukov
    Especially for you.

    Especially for VO, this is not the first public discredit on the part of the author in relation to the DLNR and NWO! It will be interesting how the main operators of the SVO Sladkov, Pegov, Solovyov, Simonyan and the security forces will react to this. I will try to send the link, skin and PDF to everyone!

    tovarischi, apparently we have before us a typical official of the LPR. Selected subspecies for these 8 years. These individuals do not know how to build and create anything. But what they do well, nooo, excellently succeeds is to weave intrigues, squeeze out business and look for enemies everywhere. Actually, when someone asks why nothing worthwhile was built there - pay attention to this individual .. This is a typical average instance
    1. frog
      frog 21 July 2022 22: 54
      -1
      tovarischi, apparently we have before us a typical official of the LPR.

      Do you think that such a thing does not occur in the one and indivisible?
  48. Aleksandr Ivanov
    Aleksandr Ivanov 21 July 2022 21: 33
    -5
    Konoshenko is not the mouthpiece of the press service of the Moscow Region. She does not participate at all in covering any acts of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, although she is obliged to.
    And yes, everything that Konoshenko covers is true. It's just that the West does not voice ALL arms supplies to Ukraine. There are also smart people there.
    And there will be hidden and explicit deliveries until the General Staff of the Russian Federation destroys the "arteries" of supply on the western border of Ukraine. For 5 (five) months, the logistics of deliveries of weapons and personnel of error 404 have not been violated.
  49. vovochkarzhevsky
    vovochkarzhevsky 21 July 2022 21: 38
    0
    Guys, it could be the following. In aviation, the concept of resource and wear is not the same thing.
    A resource, this is the time during which the developer guarantees an acceptable level of reliability of a part, assembly, assembly, airframe.
    In other words, an aircraft with a depleted resource according to the airframe, the engines are quite combat-ready. It's just that the probability of failure is slightly higher. But in wartime, it is quite possible to close your eyes to this.
  50. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 21 July 2022 22: 28
    +1
    I'm not going to excuse Konashenkov, but it's worth writing about these figures.
    1) For aviation. How are aircraft shot downs calculated? I do not think that by the number of craters with smoking debris, although some number can be verified in this way. For air defense calculations and our pilots, probably, the calculation is also based on confirmation of the coincidence of the target and the missile on the radar. In the event that aircraft operate in the "gray zone" it is not possible to confirm their defeat for certain, so often they probably use this method. It is possible that such calculations take into account data from Ukrainian radio interceptions about the aircraft being shot down. In some cases, incapacitation = downing in reports.
    It is worth noting that a number of figures could probably be obtained by destroying mock-ups at enemy airfields or its hangars, suggesting the presence of aviation according to intelligence data. It is not always possible to determine the presence or absence of real aircraft there, we do not have such good and low-loaded satellites and not so perfectly established aerial reconnaissance.
    The Ukrainians themselves can play radio games with us, because they are interested in us having an incorrect picture of the losses of their aircraft.
    2) By tanks. With tanks, everything is simpler - knocking out does not mean destruction. A crashed aircraft cannot be restored, a downed tank can be restored. Often, we could record heavy defeats of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles in destruction, then they were evacuated and restored. As well as with aviation, a certain number of defeats probably fell on mock-up blendes and hangars, and this is logical. I admit that in a number of cases nomenclature confusion could also arise, and in the array of targets hit, along with tanks, other targets could be attributed to the "tank" (including from unscrupulous targets).
    3) By UAV. Shooting down or knocking out an UAV as a small target can occur, including from weapons not equipped with verification tools, so in some cases this will be potentially unconfirmed information. The downing of an UAV does not mean that it is a downing of a military UAV, just like we use civilian models for intelligence, Ukraine also uses them - and they naturally lose them. It is also worth noting that in the case of UAVs, cases of "friendly fire" are not uncommon, because this is a small target.

    An accurate calculation of enemy losses in wartime is difficult, and this is understandable, because there is a problem with obtaining reliable information. We do not have comprehensive data on the repair capacities of Ukraine, on how well and effectively they use mock-ups, on how well the disinformation of us by their special services is delivered. The methods for calculating damage in the database are also imperfect.
    1. Urs
      Urs 22 July 2022 00: 18
      +2
      I'm happy to upvote good probably the most worthy alignment throughout the article.
    2. TatarinSSSR
      TatarinSSSR 22 July 2022 21: 20
      +4
      Everything you wrote is called unconfirmed enemy losses. That is, expected. But what about Kanashenkov's favorite phrase (one of a whole bunch of favorites) about "means of objective control"? That is, they stupidly tell us all fairy tales, retellings about maybe it was, maybe not, the main thing is to report? This is called misleading.
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 23 July 2022 01: 08
        0
        In any case, some estimated figures are needed; they should appear in any military-economic calculations. Otherwise, how will the rear know how many air defense missiles to produce, how many ATGMs to put on the front line of the infantry, and so on. If there are no estimated figures, then there is no understanding of the enemy’s ability to prepare major offensives in certain areas - therefore, some extra forces can be pulled out of these areas and moved to more important ones.
        So in any case, these figures have value even taking into account the calculation errors. Another thing is that voicing specifically THESE figures for the townsfolk can be counterproductive, because the layman does not need to be estimated approximately, the task of informing him should be reduced in wartime to creating a stable, CONvincing and trusting picture of events. To some extent, it is desirable that it be also EXHAUSTIVE. In this case, the layman will trust his own media and trust others less.
        This is already a question for the general quality of our agitprop, and not specifically for the reports of the Ministry of Defense.
        1. TatarinSSSR
          TatarinSSSR 23 July 2022 08: 11
          +2
          Well, for now, it is specifically to the reports of the Moscow Region that there is a specific mistrust.