Military Review

Ivanishvili can be the second Yanukovych?

112
After the victory of the Georgian Dream opposition movement led by Bidzina Ivanishvili, both in Georgia and Russia, they are wondering how Russian-Georgian relations will change. Naturally, such a geopolitical fortune-telling itself is a thankless task, but still some ways of future interactions between Moscow and Tbilisi emerge little by little. To talk about how far Ivanishvili is ready to go in terms of building good-neighborly relations, it is necessary, as far as possible today, to take a closer look at Ivanishvili, on his status, on the facts of his biography.

Ivanishvili can be the second Yanukovych?


The opposition leader, who suddenly became the political figure number one in Georgia, having pressed Mikhail Saakashvili, is not the person who can radically change the policy of Georgia at the first stage of entering the highest power. Bidzina Ivanishvili is an entrepreneur, and a successful entrepreneur. And no successful entrepreneur who has not yet managed to get used to the political field, will not tear the steering wheel in the opposite direction, even if the continuing course is not very impressive. Based on this, it can be assumed that Ivanishvili, who is preparing to become prime minister of the Georgian government, at least in the first months of his political work will not interfere with the inertia that persists from Mikhail Saakashvili’s activity. Naturally, the entire crew of this ship will change, completely new people will be appointed (and many of these names are already known), but the command “Full back!”, Which will be able to unfold the country's foreign policy, will not be given.

However, like any successful businessman, Bidzina Ivanishvili understands that politics is also a business, which means that you need to wait until inertial craving ceases, and at that moment you can give commands to change course. Otherwise, the ship may be under the rule of calm, which, albeit better than political and economic storms, but also can lead to new problems.

If we are guided by such considerations, after Ivanishvili’s announcement of the new head of the Cabinet of Ministers (and after the change of the Constitution and the head of state) Georgia will continue to prove to the West its loyalty. At the same time, Ivanishvili perfectly understands that, by and large, Georgia for the West has largely lost the factor, let's say, “interestingness”. The fact is that the words about European integration and joining the North Atlantic alliance are, of course, a balm for the soul of the democratically and liberally-minded part of Georgian society, but only the words still remain words. For several years now, the West has been puzzled over how, as it were, in a mild form, which will suit official Tbilisi, declaring its “eternal loyalty”, to make it clear to the Georgian authorities that today there are only problems with this integration. In all respects, Georgia today is not suitable either for European integration or for joining NATO. The fact is that official Tbilisi does not recognize the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and the territorial issue is fundamental when entering the North Atlantic Alliance. It is precisely this that explains such extensive remarks by NATO Secretary General Rasmussen as “Georgia has never been so close to NATO as it is now.” If anything, then Russia has never been so close to the Alliance either, because this Alliance is already close to Russia in the form of the Baltic republics, Poland and other “partners” in Eastern Europe. In general, the “bright” near future, in which Georgia will be a member of NATO, is still seen as very, very vague. At the same time, at the level of economic development of Georgia, when the annual GDP indicator at purchasing power parity here is no more than 5500 $ per person (for comparison: in Russia - 16700 $, Belarus - around 13000 $, in Latvia - 15400 $, in Greece - 22000 $), obviously, about any focus on the EU and we can not be. More precisely, it is possible to talk as much as you want, but only Brussels has not yet managed to completely lose its mind to receive states with such depressing economic indicators under its wing only because its authorities so want to show their commitment to democratic ideals. As they say, ideals are ideals, and the snuff is apart ...

Bidzina Ivanishvili, who in business has managed to eat a dog, understands all these things perfectly. That is why his words that the course towards NATO membership and European integration will continue even with his leadership of the country is the first thing that the world heard after the election victory of the “Georgian Dream”. After all, if Ivanishvili would allow himself to say something else, then the West would have only expected such a puncture from the new political authorities of Georgia. By and large, the West needs Georgia today only for two major goals: first, to have an additional bridgehead in the case of a large-scale operation against Iran, and, second, to put some pressure on Russia from the south so that Moscow does not relax too much. It can be said that it is from such positions that the United States and the European Union retain an interest in Tbilisi, and as soon as the head of this state appears a person who says that it is necessary to tie up with NATO and with plans to join the EU, so certain forces immediately click on the button of the next political drain. Georgia will turn into Ukraine-2, in which the orange power loyal to the West has been replaced by rushing from side to side by Viktor Yanukovych, who has not yet decided where he is leading his country.

In this regard, it becomes ridiculous to follow the speeches of the current Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili, who delivers his speeches against the background of two flags - the flag of Georgia and the banner of the European Union ... One could also hang up the NATO flag behind him for complacency, but everyone around is well aware that such clowning can not last long.

So what can Bidzina Ivanishvili undertake, who realizes that he has experienced truly colossal internal and, especially, foreign policy problems, after the notorious inertia movement from Saakashvili’s course has ceased? Knocking fists and forehead on the door of NATO and the European Union, of course, can, but only the cones can not be avoided, but the doors are likely to remain closed. Then, precisely, Georgia will turn into a post-orange Ukraine, which the political forces are pulling one way or the other, effectively tearing the country into two conflicting parts.

It turns out that Ivanishvili has two options: either to overcome economic and territorial problems and to achieve entry into the above structures, or to abandon the ideas of both joining NATO and European integration. But if you try to solve these problems, then Ivanishvili will either have to recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, or try to return these republics to the Georgian fold. Both that, and another for the person preparing to become the new Georgian leader, will be a political catastrophe (at least from the point of view of Western interests).

Raising the standard of living in Georgia at least to the level of the lowest in the European Union under current conditions is also not realistic. Here, the total energy shortage as well as numerous embargoes from Russia play a negative role for the Georgian economy. In particular, only from one ban on the import of Georgian wine and mineral water into Russia, Georgia loses about 200 million dollars a year. If we consider that the aggregate annual GDP of 4,5 million Georgia is about 23 billion dollars, even 200 million looks like an impressive figure.

Today, Ivanishvili is trying to return the businessmen who were considered disgraced when Saakashvili was in Georgia. Many of them managed to settle either in Russia or in the West. According to Ivanishvili, these people are able to contribute a lively stream to the realization of not only the economic potentials of Georgia, but also the potentials for building relations with other countries. Businessmen are responding to Ivanishvili’s offer with silence. Why? Because the majority understands that there are so many problems in the country today that their solution may take many years, and the political situation in the country itself remains ambiguous. In particular, it became known recently that Saakashvili, although he is preparing to transfer power to other hands, but at the same time is trying with all his might to retain such bread places as the Georgian government procurement agency, as well as a special connection, and the new government is in fact agreed to keep the current President control over the designated areas. And, as is well known to all the same disgraced Georgian businessmen, if Saakashvili is given a chance to remain at the state feeder, then any slogans associated with changes in Georgia turn into a farce.

So it turns out that Ivanishvili seems to be celebrating the victory, and he understands all the political and economic problems he gets, but for now the circumstances are clearly stronger than him to allow him to cope with the challenges. This is what gives reason to argue that Ivanishvili, who received the status of the grave-digger of the Rose Revolution, can only become the second Yanukovych, who is not even able to give an answer to where he leads his country: he wants to join the EU, but the EU is against, Russia is calling , but it’s not fashionable to be friends with Russia now - suddenly imperial ambitions and all that ... I would like to be mistaken in my conclusions regarding Bidzina Ivanishvili, but the circumstances are serious stuff.
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  1. Imperial
    Imperial 13 October 2012 08: 20
    +9
    Ivanishvili probably has two options, either to establish trade and economic ties with Russia, and thereby increase the standard of living of ordinary Georgians, or to be a pug of the West, then the quality of life will increase or remain only among Georgian policemen and will not give money to the greater west.
    1. Anti
      Anti 13 October 2012 11: 54
      +3
      Quote: Imperial
      to be a pug of the west


      Koscheev’s death at the end of the needle, that needle in an egg, that egg in a duck, that duck in a hare, that hare in a chest, and the chest is not in the national bank of Georgia !!! wink
    2. Kaa
      Kaa 13 October 2012 15: 20
      +1
      Quote: Imperial
      Ivanishvili probably has two options, either to establish trade and economic ties with Russia, and thereby increase the standard of living of ordinary Georgians, or to be a pug of the West

      And do not hope, colleague, only the faithful US Dweller:
      “Earlier this year, Ivanishvili hired consultancy, lobbying and legal firms such as National Strategies, Patton Boggs and others, which initially provided Congress with general data on Ivanishvili’s services under the Lobbying Disclosure Act (LDA). In the documentation submitted to the US Department of Justice, Patton Boggs indicates that one of the areas of Ivanishvili's service on the part of this company may include advocating before congressmen, their staff and representatives of the Obama Administration on issues such as “punitive measures taken by the Georgian authorities that restrict him ( Ivanishvili) Civil and Political Rights "Since January this year, Ivanishvili has been paying Patton Boggs $ 160 monthly. Ivanishvili has hired a second company, National Strategies, for lobbying, media relations, electoral advice and public relations. Yu. National Strategies provides these services through several contracted firms. In the lobbying component, National Strategies, in turn, signed a contract with two firms - Downey McGrath Group and Parry, Romani, DeConcini & Symms, to help Ivanishvili "develop relations and management in Washington." Ivanishvili pays $ 000 monthly to National Strategies; Downey McGrath Group and Parry, Romani, DeConcini & Symms for their services. According to data submitted to the US Department of Justice, National Strategies maintains relations with Congress and the Obama Administration to “strengthen support for the client’s campaign (Ivanishvili),” as well as help secure the support of influential political leaders to support free and fair elections in Georgia and facilitate the election campaign of Ivanishvili. http://novost.ge/2012/08/25/
      1. 16 REGION
        16 REGION 15 October 2012 13: 43
        0
        But it seems to me that the course of Tbilisi will remain the same, just the Amers have nothing to do with unnecessary fuss around everyone, so they changed the leader. And besides, his investments, I think, are not stored in Moscow banks.
    3. starshina78
      starshina78 13 October 2012 19: 29
      0
      The main thing is to improve the economy, otherwise I really want to try again the finest wines "Kidzmarauli" and "Khvanchkara". A wonderful bouquet! Taste! Smell !
      1. wax
        wax 14 October 2012 00: 56
        +2
        Look at the Armenian cognac and understand that in Georgia the quality of wines and cognacs could not be preserved, as was the case in the USSR. Devastation - it is devastation everywhere. Foam shot by millionaires.
      2. igor67
        igor67 14 October 2012 01: 14
        +1
        starshina78,
        It’s very difficult to find these genuine wine brands, and Bulgaria produces everything and sundry, Georgia itself is not able to provide wine imports in such quantities, most of it is fake
        1. 16 REGION
          16 REGION 15 October 2012 13: 49
          0
          Quote: igor67
          It’s very difficult to find these genuine wine brands, and Bulgaria produces everything and sundry, Georgia itself is not able to provide wine imports in such quantities, most of it is fake

          I was in Abkhazia at the distillery so they told me that their pretty well-known wines (I don’t remember the names now) were never sold to Russia at all, and they were sold at our place.
          I have to say that one brand of wine tastes that there is heaven and earth.
          So what can we say about Georgian imports.
      3. Happiness
        Happiness 15 October 2012 10: 52
        0
        Unfortunately, we sold 99% fake wine. The Kindzmarauli microzone is located in the Alazani Valley on an area of ​​one hundred and twenty hectares in the place where the Duruji River connects with Alazani. Due to the fact that the number of harvested grapes is very limited, the present "Kindzmarauli" is a rarity. A friend said that not every Georgian, at least once in his life, tried the real “Kindzmarauli”.
  2. Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 13 October 2012 08: 23
    +5
    Imperial,
    Quote: Imperial

    Ivanishvili probably has two ways out or to establish trade and economic ties with Russia,

    One has already adjusted, said a lot, beautifully, and even made promises to the left and to the right, that's just how it all ended. The same American puppet, only the surname is different.
  3. YARY
    YARY 13 October 2012 08: 31
    +12
    For me, Georgia is the enemy. And who is there now, Mrs. licking SyShyAA lilac! While there is no execution for their godfather, and all who even took part in any action against Russia and the Russians, and even more so in 20080808, they are enemies!
    And even after forever, they are guilty forever and all their descendants will remain alive.
    1. Yura
      Yura 13 October 2012 19: 36
      +3
      Quote: Ardent
      For me, Georgia is an enemy.

      For me, too, but at the beginning they are traitors and they despise such people, but enemies also happen to respect each other.
      1. columbus2
        columbus2 14 October 2012 01: 55
        +1
        Quote: Jura
        For me too, but at first they are traitors


        And whom did they betray and when?
    2. columbus2
      columbus2 14 October 2012 01: 31
      -4
      Excuse me ... who is Ramzan Kadyrov? Is it really a friend?
      1. Dasha
        Dasha 14 October 2012 01: 49
        0
        columbus2,
        He (he) is his friend. And tributes on the streets of the capital, too, and Lezginka on a beautiful square ....
    3. Dasha
      Dasha 14 October 2012 01: 47
      +3
      YARY,
      Your "post" is verbal slop.
      In Russia, 1/4 with defective brains, you would think.
      Sorry if I offended, but visit a psychologist, he (a) will confirm.
      1. owl
        owl 14 October 2012 16: 42
        -2
        Well, see you dear reckon among the remaining 3/4 of course.
        1. Dasha
          Dasha 14 October 2012 22: 53
          +2
          I - she is mine (J.R.).
          I enumerate and can prove. Can you?
          Note: I didn’t mean the ratio of Yaroy to 1/4 (The figure, by the way, is not mine: put the DVR, move along the DOP).
          He's just a provocateur. Who, with his pussies, further provokes a disease of the people
  4. urchik
    urchik 13 October 2012 08: 51
    +1
    Interestingly, this Georgian leader will run from Russian attack aircraft and chew ties.
    1. GSH-18
      GSH-18 13 October 2012 09: 22
      0
      Quote: urchik
      Interestingly, this Georgian leader will run from Russian attack aircraft and chew ties.

      Why, they have for this Srakashvili! laughing
  5. Lech e-mine
    Lech e-mine 13 October 2012 08: 55
    +14
    It does not matter at all who will be in power in GEORGIA, the ANTI-RUSSIAN MOOD in Georgian society is strong enough and I would not count on changes in our relations with GEORGIA.
    1. freedom
      freedom 13 October 2012 20: 05
      +1
      I agree. It’s just that Saakashvili was merged in the west, and they put another one of their own.
  6. mar.tira
    mar.tira 13 October 2012 09: 02
    +7
    The Americans are a cunning nation. First they put a "hemp" to check how weak we are on the navel or not. We realized that they weren’t sick. Now, from the other side, bypassing, kindly. And ordinary Georgians feel sorry that they allowed themselves to trade like the last ones .... hi. Although they now express the hope that we will return everything to them after the pawn change. But They don't even believe in it, because they know in whose hands they are, and how we will react to it. It is useless to compare with Yanukovych. The level of relations and mentality is not the same. Although this one loves to trade the Motherland.
    1. YARY
      YARY 13 October 2012 09: 07
      +3
      War is a game for kings!
      Be a subject wiser -
      And there wouldn’t be games for kings!
      1. GSH-18
        GSH-18 13 October 2012 09: 25
        +1
        Quote: Ardent
        War is a game for kings!
        Be a subject wiser -
        And there wouldn’t be games for kings!

        Concisely! Plus.
        Myrikosa Georgians bent to the fullest, but they still have not understood everything. So myrikosy will play with them further. You can wait for surprises ...
        1. Beck
          Beck 13 October 2012 10: 26
          +4
          Whatever they say here, but power in Georgia has been replaced by democratic, free, fair elections. And this is a great achievement of the political system of Georgia.

          And the power changed in a civilized manner. After a period of instability and military clashes, Georgia came to a civilized change of government without protest demonstrations against the outcome of elections and shooting.
          1. Oleg Rosskiyy
            Oleg Rosskiyy 13 October 2012 11: 10
            +6
            Beck,
            Don’t tell people about democratic and free elections in Georgia. Misha screwed up so much that he has no choice, they called from the top of Washington and said to leave quietly, that’s all democracy. He behaves surprisingly calmly, although he understands that he could bear the deserved punishment for what had been done if the West had not covered his ass.
            1. Beck
              Beck 13 October 2012 12: 11
              -2
              Oleg Roskiy.

              Respected. Neither you nor I have any data whether there was a call to Tbilisi from the White House or not. But we know for sure that the party of Ivanashvili won 55% of the vote, the party of Saakashvili 45. And we know for sure that Saakashvili did not order to shoot at his people, did not put Ivanashvili behind bars. And we know for sure that power passed from hand to hand peacefully, as it should be in normal countries.
              1. Oleg Rosskiyy
                Oleg Rosskiyy 13 October 2012 12: 18
                +5
                Quote: Beck
                But we know for sure that the party of Ivanashvili won 55% of the vote, the party of Saakashvili 45. And we know for sure that Saakashvili did not order to shoot at his people,

                Where do you know, were you present at the counting, or are you all-seeing? He did not order to shoot at the people, he was ordered from Washington not to shoot. You "respected" earlier, questioning the legitimacy of the Orthodox Church, did not answer your earlier question about the legitimacy of Muslims , or what, a point jumped?
                1. Geokingxnumx
                  Geokingxnumx 13 October 2012 12: 32
                  -7
                  Quote: Oleg Rosskiyy
                  that he could have been deservedly punished for what he had done if the West had not covered his ass.

                  well yes yes yes! he remained president at all! we have at least an opposition! I wonder what is happening in Russian in prisons?
                  Quote: Oleg Rosskiyy
                  From where do you know, were you present at the count, or are you all-seeing?

                  Well, yes, sorry that 170% was not)
                  1. Oleg Rosskiyy
                    Oleg Rosskiyy 13 October 2012 12: 50
                    +7
                    Quote: GEOKING95
                    Well, yes, sorry that 170% was not)

                    They changed the awl for soap, at least 170 even 200%, and the choice was made by Washington, just like in the states, people vote, and the Senate decides and approves.
                    1. wasjasibirjac
                      wasjasibirjac 15 October 2012 12: 02
                      +1
                      not the people vote in the USA. and electors. as a result there are such funny situations
                  2. owl
                    owl 14 October 2012 13: 49
                    +2
                    I now know everything that is going on in Georgian prisons, otherwise everyone thought that it was just heaven on earth. We also have everything in the normal range. Although your previous election, Saakashvili showed a small percentage of the throw-in.
                2. Beck
                  Beck 13 October 2012 13: 10
                  -2
                  Quote: Oleg Rosskiyy
                  From where do you know, were you present at the count, or are you all-seeing?


                  When counting the votes, he was certainly not present in Georgia. But he saw the official reports of the election commission, circulated through all media channels.

                  But I did not see the official listing of telephone conversations between the White House and Tbilisi.

                  As for the legitimacy of Islam, I replied that you probably didn’t finish reading. Both Christianity and Islam came out of Judaism. Judaism is their foundation. Therefore, Christian and Islamic priests rely on the Scriptures and Jewish prophets. You know my attitude to the legitimacy of Christianity. Now about Islam.

                  Muhammad called himself the last prophet. But the prophet coming from the Jewish god Yahweh, whom he called Allah. Muhammad, like Jesus, did not blame the Jews that they were of a different faith, but blamed that they, the Jews, did not observe the faith of Yahweh. And only Jesus and Muhammad observe it correctly.

                  To confirm the acceptability and legitimacy of Muhammad, some Muslim priests refer to the fifth book of Moses - Deuteronomy.

                  “I will bring them a Prophet from among their BROTHERS such as you, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything that I will command.”
                  - But he who does not listen to My words that the Prophet will speak in My name, from that I will seek.

                  Chapter 18, verses 18-19. Deuteronomy.

                  These are the words of the Lord to Moses. The priests of Islam here have in mind the Prophet Muhammad. Like the Lord himself anticipated the emergence of a new prophet, which became Muhammad. But this is not so. Chapter 18 is dedicated to the tribe of Levites - the clergy of Judaism. Here the Lord tells precisely Moses that he, the Lord, will raise the Prophet from among their brothers, that is, from the Levites. But Muhammad was not a Levite and he was not a Jew.

                  Last thing. You must not respect me. But I’m not your personal enemy either. We are just opponents. If you do not respect me, then do not put this word in quotation marks, and do not write it. Without quotes, this word can be spoken.
                  1. Flooding
                    Flooding 13 October 2012 16: 40
                    +2
                    Quote: Beck
                    But the prophet coming from the Jewish god Yahweh, whom he called Allah

                    You are wrong about this. When he speaks about God to the best of his understanding, an Orthodox or Muslim, he means God the Creator, the Creator, the One and Almighty.
                    And here he can be neither Jewish nor Russian.
                    Pagans let them talk about the deities of various pantheons. Then they hold the flag in their hands.
                    1. Beck
                      Beck 13 October 2012 17: 34
                      0
                      Quote: Flood
                      You are wrong about this. When he speaks about God, to the best of his understanding, an Orthodox or Muslim, he means God the Creator, the Creator, the One and the Almighty. And here He can be neither Jewish nor Russian.


                      It is difficult to briefly answer your clear statement. To make it more clear, I’ll say right away. I am an unbeliever on all sides. On the part of Christianity, I am not cruel, on the part of Islam Giaur, on the side of Judaism I am still some kind of bad. For many years I was looking for a way to God, but I did not find a way that would not contradict logic, common sense, enlightenment.

                      This is God’s creator for us. For a simple believer, this is a FAITH for which he does not require proof. But religious scholastics (and priests too) need a foundation, justification, and the legitimacy of their statements. This is for common sense.

                      Christianity and Islam are not independent faiths that have arisen individually. This is the original sect of Judaism. Therefore, there and there are the same tales taken from Scripture. Eden, Sodom and Gommora, Adam and Eve, Noah and from there the main postulate is SINGLE-YEAR. And Jesus and Muhammad continued the Hebrew religion, only Yahweh was called God and Allah. Therefore, Christianity and Islam seek their confirmation precisely in the Scriptures, at their discretion interpreting the Scriptures in favor of Jesus and Muhammad.

                      What is the difference between ordinary people and the geniuses who create civilization. Only one. In genius, a children's question remains for life - WHY. In ancient times, people seeing mountains, rivers, and mesmerized by their power asked themselves an animated question - WHO. Because in the cave there was always someone doing something, the tip of a spear, etc. And if by Who we mean God who also made, but not a tip, but everything around, then he is undoubtedly the Creator and Creator. The mountains are high, the rivers are full of water, so God created them Almighty And there is no difference a pagan god or one. And this is possible only in the absence of enlightenment. If everything is God, then the search for the mind disappears, curiosity, interest - God is. Geniuses of their childhood. Why, with growing up, they rephrased AS. How does this happen? How to do it? These geniuses move civilization. The first person to beat off the spearhead is also a genius.

                      But to create everything around, in all its interaction, is impossible neither by the Word of God, nor by the plan of construction, nor by reason. This is possible only with the variable movement of Nature in Time and Space.
                      1. Yarbay
                        Yarbay 13 October 2012 17: 48
                        -1
                        Quote: Beck
                        I am an unbeliever on all sides. On the part of Christianity, I am not cruel, on the part of Islam Giaur, on the side of Judaism I am still some kind of bad. For many years I was looking for a path to God, but I could not find a path that would not contradict logic, common sense, enlightenment

                        Dear Beck!
                        Reading you now, I understood a lot about you!
                        I am sincerely sorry for you, or rather, that you did not correctly seek the path to God!
                        I remember that what you posted about Islam, I read before in extremist sites, you just didn’t hesitate to copy-paste!
                        You understand what your trouble is. You did not seek to know this or that religion deeply, but you tried to find excuses for yourself and convince yourself that all religions are wrong !!
                        I can talk about Islam, what you printed will not occur to more than one competent Muslim, since having studied my religion I know what this or that record means and what is the point !!
                        Unfortunately, you haven’t been looking for this !!
                        And it surprises me, because I see in you a sane person!
                        I wish you clarity of consciousness and mercy of the Almighty!
                      2. Beck
                        Beck 13 October 2012 18: 43
                        +2
                        Yarba.

                        Respected. All people have a particular state of mind, with which a person interacts with the surrounding worlds. I am an atheist, but not in that communist sense of the word.

                        If someone does not like black, but like yellow, this is not a reason to predict and threaten this person with hell, fiery hyena. And religion is threatening. If I write that Einstein was wrong, after all, the scientific world will not arrange demonstrations, anathematizing me.

                        Compipastia. And in those comments and now I use free excerpts from my essay "The Triune Cathedral". Which was written by me not within a month, but over many years of pondering the texts of the Scriptures, the Koran, the Gospel. The text of the work is 350 kilobytes.

                        I am not saying that religions are wrong. I say that from the point of view of science, logic, common sense, today's enlightenment, the foundations of all religions of the world have no foundation.

                        The Gospels, the Qur'an themselves have many moments of obscurity. A deeply religious person does not notice this. And he perceives every line literally and only in the interpretation that religion prescribes.

                        The theologian Gunnar Samuelson, a teacher at the University of Gothenburg, is a Bible scholar based on religious beliefs. who wrote a 400-page dissertation - “... My suggestion is to read the text (of the Bible) as it is, and not as we want or as we are used to. We must first read LINE, not BETWEEN LINE. ” According to Samuelson, those texts that speak of execution do not mention in a word how exactly Christ was "attached." “This is the essence of the problem. The texts are emotionally descriptive, but do not contain the exact information that we Christians sometimes want to see. ” “If you look for texts that depict the act of nailing people to the cross, you simply won't find them.”

                        English poet of the turn of the 18-19th centuries Percy Shelley said - "Man created God" He also said - "If it is impossible to prove the existence of God, then it is pointless to believe in him." Of course, Shelly is not an authority, but there is something to think about.

                        Respected. If you say that atheism is not true, this should not change my attitude towards you as a person.

                        The watershed between believers and geniuses passes through the concept of the phrase FAITH and KNOWLEDGE. The believer piously believes and does not want to know another. Genius also believes, but believes in Knowledge, believes in what he knows.
                      3. Yarbay
                        Yarbay 13 October 2012 18: 55
                        -2
                        Quote: Beck
                        All people have a particular state of mind, with which a person interacts with the surrounding worlds.

                        nobody argues with this!
                        Quote: Beck
                        Which I wrote not for a month, but for many years pondering the texts of Scripture, the Koran, the Gospel. The text is 350 kilobytes.

                        Sorry, but I only read your excerpts about Islam and they repeat it in one, what I read on extremist sites!
                        You see, you did not study Islam and the Qur'an, if you would study, you would not write such simple mistakes in the realization of the Qur'an !! You would not take everything literally !!
                        They would know that there are Mecca and Medina suras and what is the difference between them!
                        I do not blame you, I'm just really sorry that you are not a stupid person so easily took the wrong side!
                        Quote: Beck
                        If someone doesn’t like black, but like yellow, this is not a reason to predict and threaten this person with hell, fiery fiery
                        I have not seen this in more than one religion !!
                        Quote: Beck
                        The Gospels, the Qur'an themselves have many moments of obscurity. A deeply religious person does not notice this

                        According to these ambiguities, hundreds of books of scholars have been written who have dedicated their lives to the study of holy books!
                        Quote: Beck
                        And takes every line literally and only in the interpretation that religion prescribes

                        The fact of the matter is that according to Islam, it was in your notes that there was a literal perception!
                        Quote: Beck
                        ... My suggestion is to read the text (of the Bible),

                        In this I am not an expert, I think knowledgeable Christians will answer you more competently !!
                        I am convinced that you need to communicate more and read about a particular religion and perhaps you have read the wrong books!
                        with respect!
                      4. Beck
                        Beck 13 October 2012 19: 15
                        -1
                        Yarba.

                        Dear, I have already unsubscribed to Flashback. I repeat. Of course, the format of the site does not imply serious discussion on such a global topic. These are lengthy and lengthy conversations. I note only one thing. For some reason, all the Gods threaten unbelieving hell, that is, for their point of view.

                        And I thank you, dear, for your worthy and calm opposition. May Allah reward you.
                      5. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 13 October 2012 19: 23
                        +4
                        Alibek! I am not an expert on the Bible and the Koran, but I know for sure that not a single faithful Muslim can raise his hand against the Orthodox in accordance with the precepts of the Prophet in practice, the Saudi Qatar and Iran are also sleeping and seeing how to destroy Orthodox Russia, how to understand them? After all, in these countries, religion underlies statehood only if it is easier possible given that in these matters I am almost a loser
                      6. wasjasibirjac
                        wasjasibirjac 15 October 2012 12: 07
                        0
                        Saudis - Wahhabis, almost sectarians who perverted Islam. having perverted one faith they encroach on another. Orthodoxy is one of the oldest religions and causes attacks on the sectarians desire to destroy it
                      7. Flooding
                        Flooding 13 October 2012 18: 39
                        +1
                        I’m not going to enter into the discussion. Already have experience communicating with people intoxicated by the power of their own mind.
                        Clear contradictions are immediately apparent. You say that faith in the Lord lulls curiosity in people, the desire for knowledge.
                        But at the same time, he decided everything for himself and put it on the shelves. Where is your desire for knowledge? Alas...
                        He seeks to know who recognizes all the insignificance of his knowledge.
                        But not for me to judge.
                      8. Beck
                        Beck 13 October 2012 19: 09
                        -2
                        In a flood.

                        I agree with you. The format of the site does not allow serious discussion on such a vital topic. After all, I decided for myself not in one sitting. And actually I'm an ordinary person. And they ask themselves the question. And they are drawn to cognition. It was their craving that the current laws of the universe were discovered.

                        I am grateful to you for a worthy, calm opposition.
                3. Feroma
                  Feroma 13 October 2012 17: 00
                  +1
                  Oleg Russky
                  From a lack of words or facts, people often turn to personalities, thereby emphasizing that it is "morons". Oleg, you would stop here to be engaged in shapkozakidatelstvom, your opponent quite correctly answers your statements, and you challenge him to "weak" (or as you put it, "jumped a point"). In Georgia, indeed, from year to year, elections ended in massive demonstrations, remember at least the elections, here is the official clipping:
                  On April 9, 1991, Georgia declared independence from the USSR. On May 6, 1991, presidential elections were held in which Zviad Gamsakhurdia was elected President of Georgia.

                  In December 1991 - January 1992, a military coup took place in the country. Eduard Shevardnadze, invited by his organizers to the post of head of Georgia, took the post of chairman of the State Council of the Republic, and the post of president remained vacant. Only on November 5, 1995, elections were held in which Shevardnadze was elected president. Then, on April 9, 2000, he was re-elected. As a result of so-called. The “Rose Revolution” E. A. Shevardnadze was forced to resign.

                  On January 4, 2004, Mikheil Saakashvili was elected President of Georgia. After the dispersal of mass opposition protests in November 2007, he was forced to resign as president by announcing early elections. They took place on January 5, 2008, and Saakashvili also won them. His inauguration took place on January 20, 2008.

                  As you see, the Georgian presidents have not so easily parted with the government, which is even more a positive sign with the current election. This is what your opponent says!
              2. SHILO
                SHILO 13 October 2012 13: 30
                0
                BEK
                But we know for sure that the Ivanashvili party scored 55% of the vote, the Saakashvili party 45. And we know for sure that




                Oleg Rosskiyy (1) Don’t bother !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                1. kuga
                  kuga 14 October 2012 18: 14
                  0
                  great dem
              3. Yeraz
                Yeraz 13 October 2012 16: 04
                -3
                It’s hard for him to believe this. He lives in a different system, it is impossible to imagine the same in Russia, but he lives on the realities of the political system of the Russian Federation. And when the opposition wins and the incumbent president doesn’t prevent this, either the West ordered or the opposition took the president’s family hostage )))))))
                1. Oleg Rosskiyy
                  Oleg Rosskiyy 13 October 2012 16: 51
                  +4
                  Quote: Yeraz
                  He lives in a different system, the same in Russia is impossible to imagine

                  Yes, I live in a different system, I work and don’t go over the hill for royalties like your Udaltsov, and I really live in realities, not fairy tales about a beautiful Western life. The victory of the Georgian opposition is a dust in the eye of an ordinary Georgian citizen and another Washington castling.
                  1. Yeraz
                    Yeraz 13 October 2012 17: 59
                    +1
                    Quote: Oleg Rosskiyy
                    Yes, I live in a different system, I work and don’t go over the hill for royalties like your Udaltsov, and I really live in realities, not fairy tales about a beautiful Western life. The victory of the Georgian opposition is a dust in the eye of an ordinary Georgian citizen and another Washington castling.

                    Well, Udaltsov is not mine))) The West also has minuses at the expense of fairy tales. But the elections are there, not the imitation like ours. In Georgia, thanks to the actions of the Russian Federation, there is such a situation that no matter which leader comes to power in foreign policy it can have 2 ways to tighten it even further (from the series here, Armenia’s outpost of the Russian Federation, we will reduce relations with it to zero) or maintain its current status. The USA doesn’t need a situation like that anyway, as any leader who decides independence in Chechnya will fly off the chair, in Georgia, too, concessions on territorial issues are political corpses. The status of irreversibility, so to speak. US orders are not necessary.

                    I do not support the opposition in the Russian Federation because they don’t offer anything specific)) Demagogy only.
                  2. columbus2
                    columbus2 14 October 2012 01: 34
                    -1
                    Sorry .. but in life, do you have any friends?
            2. columbus2
              columbus2 14 October 2012 01: 32
              -1
              And can I list what Misha screwed up?
          2. zadotov
            zadotov 13 October 2012 12: 09
            -2
            Sooner to rejoice, would not work like ours
          3. wasjasibirjac
            wasjasibirjac 15 October 2012 11: 52
            0
            it was not evening in Georgia before Saakashvili, elections were also held and they were also "democratic", but then they stopped and the rose revolution began
    2. 16 REGION
      16 REGION 15 October 2012 14: 06
      0
      I hate shit democracy! how good it was without them.
      And to find out what is happening around us is generally a mystery and it infuriates even more.
  7. andrei332809
    andrei332809 13 October 2012 09: 10
    +4
    What do you mean, the second Yanukovych? will flirt with us, and look in the mouth of the geyrop and here?
  8. Yarbay
    Yarbay 13 October 2012 09: 19
    +4
    *** But if you try to solve these problems, then Ivanishvili will either have to recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, or try to return these republics to the Georgian fold *** - in any case, he will have to solve this problem, even if he decides to join the CIS! !
    ** but it’s not fashionable to be friends with Russia now - all of a sudden imperial ambitions and all that ... ** - and that there are no such ambitions ??
    For me, normal ambition !!
    To make friends fashionable, Russian politicians must reconsider their views and learn to think in a modern way !!
    To learn mutually beneficial cooperation, to oppose a coherent policy to the double standards of the West, and not to copy the mistakes of the West !!
    1. mar.tira
      mar.tira 13 October 2012 09: 31
      +1
      Quote: Yarbay
      he will have to solve this problem

      Refusal to join NATO, integration into the Union with the former republics of the Union, which Putin seems to be calling for now, joining a single customs union, repentance for robbery. Maintaining a fundamentally new national policy for reconciliation, both Abkhazians and Ossetians themselves will be pulled. and you are missing, with the Armenians. And if you don’t change, it won’t lead to good, neither you (in the person of the people) nor Armenians.
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 13 October 2012 09: 39
        +1
        Quote: mar.tira
        Refusal to join NATO

        Why ??? isn't Russia cooperating with NATO ??
        Is Nato the official enemy of Russia ??
        Quote: mar.tira
        Conducting a fundamentally new national policy on reconciliation, both Abkhazians and Ossetians themselves will stretch

        This politician has already been carried out; if the Russian politicians had not been patronizing the separatists in the former republics, they would have reconciled long ago!
        Quote: mar.tira
        Which, by the way, is also missing for you, with the Armenians. And if you don’t change, it won’t lead to good, neither you (in the person of the people) nor Armenians.

        War is inevitable if the aggressor does not change his mind !!!
        1. mar.tira
          mar.tira 13 October 2012 09: 51
          +6
          Quote: Yarbay
          Is Nato the official enemy of Russia ??

          Yes, it seems we will be in Syria. Big blood will soon flow!
          Quote: Yarbay
          Russian politicians disobedience of separatists in former republics

          So Berezovsky is already gone, now Putin. And by the way, the separatists also pushed you. I’m not blinded by the fraternity like you, and neutral. They will beat you for us (until you sold out like Georgia), but if you beat you, you’ll get by musul. And the firmer Russia is in the Caucasus, the sooner we will gain power together. But only with the Americans we would have to figure it out. They began to behave impudently, Turkey and Georgia are pushing us to war with us, scum !!!
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 13 October 2012 10: 14
            -1
            Quote: mar.tira
            Yes, it seems we will be in Syria. Big blood will soon flow!

            These are just your assumptions!
            Quote: mar.tira
            So, after all, Berezovsky is already gone, now Putin

            There is a difference, but not much! Where is the guarantee that tomorrow there will not be a new * Berezovsky * ?? Although the current environment doesn’t understand him better !!
            Quote: mar.tira
            but if you beat, you will get junk.

            Of course, we will beat if the occupier does not agree to the conditions for the liberation of our territories !!
            And about the junk, time will tell !!
            Putin is a good businessman))
            1. orfo
              orfo 13 October 2012 11: 14
              0
              Quote: Yarbay
              What is the guarantee that tomorrow a new * Berezovsky * will not appear?

              given the extended terms of the president he will linger
              1. Yarbay
                Yarbay 13 October 2012 11: 22
                -1
                Quote: orfo
                given the extended terms of the president he will linger

                Was Berezovsky the President ??
                Doesn’t the oligarchy steer as before in Russia ??
          2. Yeraz
            Yeraz 13 October 2012 16: 12
            -2
            Why if some country cooperates with the Russian Federation, it’s brotherhood, foresight partnership, etc., as it sold right away with the West. It’s worth your friends base, someone else’s corrupt ones. According to your theory of determining friends and corrupt ones, we’ll come out corrupt anyway))) )
      2. columbus2
        columbus2 14 October 2012 01: 40
        -1
        Quote: mar.tira
        Refusal to join NATO, integration into the Union with the former republics of the Union, which Putin seems to be calling for now, joining a single customs union, repentance for robbery.


        1. How did NATO displease you? 2. Did the "scoop" that died in Bose teach you nothing? Or do you want to prove that a shell hits the same crater twice? 3. Putin can call for anything, he is not the Lord God. 4. The Customs Union ... maybe then it is worth restoring CMEA right away? 5. Abkhazians .. Ossetians ... Why is the Russian Federation going there? Didn't two wars with Chechnya teach you anything? I understand that Ramzan Kadyrov is your friend now, but you shouldn't try on your patterns on others.
    2. APASUS
      APASUS 13 October 2012 09: 42
      +2
      Quote: Yarbay
      - in any situation, he will have to solve this problem, even if he decides to join the CIS !!

      He will not change the course, it’s written clearly. And he won’t have to decide on the recognition of Ossetia and Abkhazia. Bedzina will take up the economy and there are a lot of problems. This requires good relations with Russia. And the vector for NATO will remain. political suicide!
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 13 October 2012 09: 51
        +2
        Quote: APASUS
        He will not change the course, clearly written

        Why change it ??
        Who will support him in the country if he changes course ??
        Let's take a sober look at things !!
        Quote: APASUS
        .And he will not have to decide on the recognition of Ossetia and Abkhazia. Bedzina will take up the economy and there are a lot of problems. That's why we need good relations with Russia

        If it is not necessary to solve the problem of Ossetia and Abkhazia, then good relations with the West will help him solve economic problems!
        Naturally, it’s also profitable to trade with Russia and traded during Saakashvili’s time!
        Quote: APASUS
        And the vector for NATO will remain to break the country's policy through the knee right away - political suicide!

        In addition, this is in the future at least some sort of guarantee of security, if you do not make peace with Russia!
        1. Oleg Rosskiyy
          Oleg Rosskiyy 13 October 2012 11: 23
          +2
          Quote: Yarbay
          And the vector for NATO will remain to break the country's policy through the knee right away - political suicide!
          In addition, this is in the future at least some sort of guarantee of security, if you do not make peace with Russia!

          Joining NATO means ensuring security from the same NATO, there are no other military threats in the modern world, but about imperial Russia, this is all the propaganda policy of the United States and the current "Nobel Peacemaker", by the way, a member of the same NATO.
  9. peter-tank
    peter-tank 13 October 2012 09: 22
    +3
    So are they going to boost the country's economy with wine and mineral water? If I am mistaken, correct it, but there is no serious industry in Georgia (mechanical engineering, metallurgy, etc.). No matter how you watch it on TV, Tbilisi is busy with endless demonstrations, rallies, and only the village plows.
    1. mar.tira
      mar.tira 13 October 2012 09: 54
      +3
      Quote: piter-tank
      there is no serious industry

      Why? Mandarins, (and urine instead of wine, as one Georgian politician used to say). True, the most delicious mandarins are all the same in Abkhazia! laughing laughing laughing
      1. owl
        owl 14 October 2012 16: 26
        0
        Personally, I like Spanish better !!!!
  10. biglow
    biglow 13 October 2012 09: 32
    +2
    Russia does not depend on Georgia in any way, if this Boris will tail his tail then everything will remain status ko and everything
  11. Oleg14774
    Oleg14774 13 October 2012 09: 42
    +1
    Georgia is not an enemy, and so! The article says correctly, it is needed so that Mother Russia does not relax. That's all! Who will allow course changes? So I think it's not worth guessing here, and so everything is clear.
    1. zadotov
      zadotov 13 October 2012 12: 25
      +1
      Not an enemy, but as Batya was mistaken
  12. pasha1180
    pasha1180 13 October 2012 10: 11
    +2
    We need to cooperate with Georgia, and in many economic issues, it will be additional levers to influence the country, in case of dissatisfaction with Russia, cut off oxygen in certain directions. "Bringing up carrots and sticks" :)
  13. Oleg14774
    Oleg14774 13 October 2012 10: 16
    +1
    And his face is an unpleasant person. I wouldn’t go into intelligence with him! Definitely!
    1. Sanches
      Sanches 13 October 2012 10: 48
      0
      yes his face is normal, this photo is unsuccessful
    2. bask
      bask 13 October 2012 14: 25
      0
      In the picture of this Benzin Ivanishvili, the face is scary because he wants to scare Russia. Horseradish radish is not sweeter. That Sakashvili, that Ivanishvili. All these are Amer’s agents. And they will go to bow to Uncle Sam.
    3. Beck
      Beck 14 October 2012 12: 16
      -2
      How can a person be judged on the qualities of a person that are not formed on the basis of the anatomical structure of the face.

      A beautiful and courageous person is not a guarantee of courage, devotion, courage.

      Aesop was a slave and in his face was slightly better than a freak. So, now do not read his fables.

      Or do not admire his act. “Aesop was given freedom.” The owners, in order to return Aesop again to slavery, put a thing from the temple in his bag and accused Aesop of theft and sacrilege. For such an act, a free man was threatened with death. The slave could be punished by the master, well, give the slave a dozen lashes. Aesop faced a choice. Or become a slave again and save your life. Or die remaining free. Aesop chose freedom.

      And this is because Aesop's face was much worse than Ivanashvili.
  14. omsbon
    omsbon 13 October 2012 10: 23
    +9
    To the friendship of Georgians I do not believe ! Too much heap of crap on their part over the past decade. Russia will live without rotten wine and fake Borjomi, but Georgia I do not know without our energy sources and without our market.
    I do not urge to fight with them, but Customs and passport control should be strengthened.
    1. APASUS
      APASUS 13 October 2012 20: 36
      +2
      Quote: omsbon
      I don’t believe in the friendship of Georgians!

      But one should not believe that Saakashvili invested so much money in the hatred of the two peoples and said so much to his media. That just Bedzina’s proposal to make peace with Russia is already a feat for the Georgian! We are the number one enemy for them, and not otherwise. Bedzina will have to work hard to make peace with Russia and not step on the rake (Abkhazia and Ossetia) to be friends with us. Otherwise, they will merge him - after all, friendship with Russia is seditious
    2. columbus2
      columbus2 14 October 2012 01: 42
      -1
      Ramzan Kadyrov approves. And waiting for the next tranche to the budget of Chechnya.
  15. Sanches
    Sanches 13 October 2012 10: 29
    +1
    Hooray, finally Georgia will become a truly democratic country. Let them enter wherever they want, if only the idiocy of 08.08.08 does not happen again
  16. grizzlir
    grizzlir 13 October 2012 10: 37
    +5
    I read komenty and amazed. People you have recorded Georgia as eternal enemies. It is a great misfortune that we managed to push our two peoples together with our foreheads. The trouble was Georgians and Russians. I was in Georgia when I was still in military school, I did not meet a more hospitable people. so that ordinary Georgians change their attitude towards Russians so dramatically. Let the politicians bite among themselves and get into a showdown, the main thing is that there would be no war, but for me ordinary Georgians are much closer than the Russians Chechens or Ingush. And remember how many times they tried to pit us with Ukrainians or Belarusians, as if something doesn’t suit the authorities, their products immediately become bad and they themselves are enemies. That's when the pans fight, their foreheads crack at the lackeys.
    1. apro
      apro 13 October 2012 11: 02
      +2
      Quote: grizzlir
      It’s a great misfortune that we managed to push our 2 peoples together with their foreheads

      It doesn’t matter, but the systematic Georgian position of the parasite caught an article about how Georgia left Persia in order to cross over to Russia and look for it like it.
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 13 October 2012 16: 48
      0
      Quote: grizzlir
      I read komenty and amazed. People you have recorded Georgia as eternal enemies. It is a great misfortune that we managed to push our two peoples against their foreheads. The trouble of Georgians and Russians

      True from the first to the last word. Stop dancing to the bagpipe. The real enemies of Russia are Britain, the USA and their own sloppiness and disorder.
      And don’t hail Georgian wine, hite what is sold on the shelves of your own stores.
    3. Feroma
      Feroma 13 October 2012 17: 09
      +3
      Art Divide and Conquer - let us learn from the West. A more effective weapon of subjugation of peoples has not yet been invented (well, perhaps just a direct military invasion in order to establish a puppet government). All they do to Russia is to push their foreheads against their neighbors, and this makes them sad. It is sad that the political establishment of Russia has been crushed, everyone is fighting for feeding troughs, the government has no force capable of pursuing an adequate external course, opposing Western values ​​and justice with "its own" humiliated and now accepted. than a carrot), then here's August 08.08.08. It's time to get strong ...
  17. mar.tira
    mar.tira 13 October 2012 10: 44
    +4
    Quote: grizzlir
    I read komenty and amazed.

    And on the contrary, I see nostalgia in the comments, and it’s a pity that we are not together. People are trying to explain why? For what is closer than the Czechs ++++++.
  18. Stasi.
    Stasi. 13 October 2012 10: 49
    +3
    Ivanishvili will not become the second Yanukovych. And the first one is also very cunning, trying to please both ours and yours instead of a clear and intelligible policy. Of course Ivanishvili will act more perniciously and more cunning than Saakashvili, but he will not become a friend of Russia. The Americans won't. Most likely, Bidzina will become president and Mishiko will be made prime minister by the will of the Americans. And let no one delude himself about democratic elections. As Comrade Stalin said: "It does not matter how they vote, it is important how they think." Saakashvili firmly assimilated this truth and could count the votes in his favor, but he did not care about the protests. The fact that he recognized the election results without a fight, it happened at the behest of the American curators, otherwise he would fucking allow such election results.
  19. Ascetic
    Ascetic 13 October 2012 10: 53
    +4
    The restoration of political dialogue with Russia - with the participation of the European Union and especially Germany, our direct contacts with Abaza and Ossetians with an emphasis on trade and infrastructure projects, and all this, along with Georgia’s move towards European integration, will open up new prospects. Russia does not want to see Georgia in NATO? But also, after all, Russia did not want the Baltic states to join the North Atlantic Alliance, but they did not provide the Russians with the opportunities that Saakashvili provided with his short-sighted policies and military rhetoric. It is through political dialogue with Russia that we must cleanse Georgia of illegal occupying forces. This problem has no military solution.

    - Georgia aspires to NATO, exercises were regularly held under the auspices of the alliance, but after the war with Russia they were not ...

    - Because after that the whole world did not want to have a relationship with such an unbalanced politician as Saakashvili. We do not intend to play impulsive political games. We are reliable partners for the Western community, and I am sure that such exercises will continue in Georgia.



    Irakli Alasania, candidate for the post of Minister of Defense in the government of Bidzina Ivanishvili, hopes through dialogue cleanse Georgia from "illegal occupation forces"
    Well, another slyness has gone .. Through dialogue .. to clean .. from the occupation troops .. It is clear to everyone that through the dialogue it will not work in any way. Who will give him? Truly "Georgian dreamer"!
    My webpage





    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic 13 October 2012 11: 02
      +1
      Quote: Ascetic
      Well, another slyness has gone .. Through dialogue .. to clean .. from the occupation troops .. It is clear to everyone that through the dialogue it will not work in any way. Who will give him? Truly "Georgian dreamer"!


      [media = http: //izvestia.ru/news/537551]
    2. Ascetic
      Ascetic 13 October 2012 11: 03
      +5
      Quote: Ascetic
      Well, another slyness has gone .. Through dialogue .. to clean .. from the occupation troops .. It is clear to everyone that through the dialogue it will not work in any way. Who will give him? Truly "Georgian dreamer"!






      There he is .. the Georgian defense minister ...
    3. Yarbay
      Yarbay 13 October 2012 11: 13
      +1
      Quote: Ascetic
      Irakli Alasania, candidate for the post of Minister of Defense in the Bidzina’s government, hopes to clear Georgia of “illegal occupying forces” through dialogue
      Well, another slyness has gone .. Through dialogue .. to clean .. from the occupation troops .. It is clear to everyone that through the dialogue it will not work in any way. Who will give him? Truly "Georgian dreamer"!

      Dear Stanislav!
      I agree with your comment, but be it not Alasania, but any other, he will also strive for what you wrote about!
      1. Karish
        Karish 13 October 2012 11: 28
        0
        Quote: Yarbay
        Irakli Alasania, candidate for the post of Minister of Defense in the Bidzina’s government, hopes to clear Georgia of “illegal occupying forces” through dialogue
        Well, another slyness has gone .. Through dialogue .. to clear .. from the occupation troops .. It is clear to everyone that through the dialogue it will not work in any way. Who will give him? Truly "Georgian dreamer

        Quote: Yarbay
        I agree with your comment, but be it not Alasania, but any other, he will also strive for what you wrote about!

        Hello Alibek !!!!
        Italy is a good country, and Israel is the best, let’s get back to our sheep
        If someone thinks that the new government of Georgia will be loyal to Russia and will not try (even if through dialogue) to return Ossetia and Abkhazia - they are simply ridiculous. Ossetians and Abkhazians became hostages of the situation and no government, even the most loyal (to Russia) government of Georgia, can come to terms with this problem.
        Trade and money are nothing compared to the wounded national pride of Georgians. If now the new government of Georgia guarantees autonomy and rights of Abkhazians and Ossetians, what will Russia do? Where the way out is the result of hasty and rash decisions. There will be no normalization between Georgia and Russia without the inclusion of Ossetia and Abkhazia - the Georgian people will not allow it. IMHO
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay 13 October 2012 12: 20
          +1
          Prive Sanya !!!
          Quote: Karish
          If someone thinks that the new government of Georgia will be loyal to Russia and will not try (even if through dialogue) to return Ossetia and Abkhazia - they are simply ridiculous. Ossetians and Abkhazians became hostages of the situation and no government, even the most loyal (to Russia) government of Georgia, can come to terms with this problem.

          This is undeniable!
          It’s just that I wrote about this more than once, that the majority of the Ossetians who are mostly deep in Russia are Ossetians there or others !! If it weren’t for the conflict with Georgia, the majority wouldn’t have any special love for them and would hardly have any !!
          For a Muscovite, any Abkhazian or Ossetian, in which case the same * black * as the Georgians!
          IMHO too !!))
          1. Geokingxnumx
            Geokingxnumx 13 October 2012 12: 39
            -2
            hello alibek
            how do you chew )
            Quote: Yarbay
            It’s just that I wrote about this more than once, that the majority of the Ossetians who are mostly deep in Russia are Ossetians there or others !! If it weren’t for the conflict with Georgia, the majority wouldn’t have any special love for them and would hardly have any !!

            100% true! before the warriors, I know that 90% did not know about these situations! and now they are a professor and know everything! they don’t understand that the truth happened there and what’s going on there
            Quote: Yarbay
            For a Muscovite, any Abkhazian or Ossetian, in which case the same * black * as the Georgians!

            where did the Georgian Black come from! Well, maybe from tanning laughing
        2. Ascetic
          Ascetic 13 October 2012 12: 40
          +7
          Quote: Karish
          Italy is a good country, and Israel is the best, let’s get back to our sheep


          The slogan at the Sheremetyevo airport: "I glorify the Fatherland, which is, but three times, which will be! (Vladimir Mayakovsky)". laughing
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 13 October 2012 12: 47
            +1
            Quote: Ascetic
            Slogan at Sheremetyevo Airport

            Really such a slogan there ???
            then respect !!!
            Unless of course I understood him correctly))))
          2. Karish
            Karish 13 October 2012 12: 56
            +2
            11 days in Italy - Vtican, Colosseum, Florence, Venezia, Verona, Pompeii, Sienna - a childhood dream, museums, history.
            Parcelino, spaghetti and carpaccio, wine - flying. The Italians are wonderful. friendly and friendly people. But visiting is good. and better at home.
            1. igor67
              igor67 13 October 2012 12: 59
              +3
              Hi Sanya! Be quiet, then in the ban ... You’ll go,
              1. Karish
                Karish 13 October 2012 13: 31
                +2
                Quote: igor67
                Hi Sanya! Be quiet, then in the ban ... you will go

                Hey . how's it going ? Already recovered? For what's in the ban? In two weeks of absence, everything became so complicated? A site on which you can not express personal opinion (of course, in compliance with regulatory vocabulary and without inciting ethnic hatred) costs nothing. Of course it’s a pity if they are banned. many friends lose. But Socrates (or Plato) is my friend - and truth is more precious.
                1. igor67
                  igor67 13 October 2012 13: 47
                  0
                  Karish,
                  You won’t lose it, although when everything on one site was easier and easier to communicate. I’ll go to Nahariya now, I want to skimp on the sea, it was interesting that Ukraine was twice inaccurate under Yanukovych that they were pleased with the crazy price increase, stopped the construction of roads, even repairs, so if Ivanishvili is such an economy then .... pa
                  1. Karish
                    Karish 13 October 2012 13: 57
                    +2
                    Quote: igor67
                    Okay, I’ll go to Nahariya now, I want to skimp on the sea

                    I can see the sea from the window, the waves today. Be careful and then some kind of Karish will claw at the heel good
                  2. BYRY
                    BYRY 13 October 2012 18: 54
                    +1
                    Well, why cheat. Roads are being built and repaired. If you take Crimea and Simferopol, then you have asphalted so many streets again. And the Simferopol-Yalta highway? We expanded and laid a new coating. The quality of the coating was regularly checked, if something didn’t work, then the asphalt was cut and re-established laid a new layer. Sidewalks, lighting and fencing installed. Not a road, but a fairy tale.
                    1. igor67
                      igor67 13 October 2012 20: 55
                      +1
                      BYRY,
                      Yes, the roads to Kiev are being expanded, they started even before the football championship, but as I was informed by an electric train on the site, we didn’t have time to go to Boryspil, distracting them, as for the roads in the regional cities under Yushchenko, they also made such roads in the district, but now in three years they became worthless
                2. Ascetic
                  Ascetic 13 October 2012 13: 58
                  +7
                  Quote: Karish
                  . But Socrates (or Plato) is my friend - and truth is more precious.


                  Jewish truth

                  Enmity is born in a dispute. Truth is born in discussion.
                  Offending is never difficult. It’s always difficult not to offend.
                  First correct yourself, then take on others.
                  He who teaches others learns himself.
                  To be able to talk, learn to be silent.
                  My webpage
                  1. Karish
                    Karish 13 October 2012 14: 03
                    -3
                    Quote: Ascetic
                    Enmity is born in a dispute. Truth is born in discussion.
                    Offending is never difficult. It’s always difficult not to offend.
                    First correct yourself, then take on others.
                    He who teaches others learns himself.
                    To be able to talk, learn to be silent.
                    My webpage

                    So I’m saying Ascetic, saving is easy to sing. Start with yourself and people reach for you. And so I look at you - just an example of tolerance, tolerance and nobility. Good luck.
                    1. Ascetic
                      Ascetic 13 October 2012 14: 08
                      +5
                      Quote: Karish
                      So I’m saying Ascetic, saving is easy to sing. Start with yourself and people reach for you. And so I look at you - just an example of tolerance, tolerance and nobility. Good luck.


                      So I say ..
                  2. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 13 October 2012 14: 08
                    +2
                    Quote: Ascetic
                    Jewish truth

                    Good truth, sorry it’s forgotten by some
              2. Ascetic
                Ascetic 13 October 2012 13: 41
                +5
                Quote: igor67
                Hi Sanya! Be quiet, then in the ban ... You’ll go,


                But who will ban him ...



                monument of Israeli patriotism .. Rockefeller sits overseas and rejoices Nails would be made of these people
                No Zionist Ideas Stronger
                1. Karish
                  Karish 13 October 2012 13: 55
                  -2
                  Quote: Ascetic
                  monument of Israeli patriotism

                  Since when is it shameful to be a patriot of your country, and Ascetic?
                  Quote: Ascetic
                  . Rockefeller sits across the ocean and rejoices. Nails would make of these people.
                  No Zionist Ideas Stronger

                  Overseas. Ascetic, overseas. In addition, in the thousandth roaz I repeat, familiarize yourself with the definition of Zionism. If you have something against Zionism, then, Ascetic, I do not understand what you need.
                  Zionism (Hebrew צִיּוֹנוּת, otsionut - from the name of Mount Zion in Jerusalem) is a political movement whose purpose is to unite and revive the Jewish people in their historical homeland - in Israel (Eretz Israel),

                  Do you mind the Jews living in Israel? Do you want them to stay in Russia?
                  1. Ascetic
                    Ascetic 13 October 2012 14: 22
                    +5
                    Quote: Karish
                    Do you mind the Jews living in Israel? Do you want them to stay in Russia?


                    On the contrary, with two hands! Especially if you take with you the entire fifth column of grant-eaters somewhere in a separate kibbutz.
                    What about Zionism
                    Recalling its resolution 1904 (XVIII) of November 20, 1963, which proclaims the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (995_338), and, in particular, the statement in it that “any theory of racial difference or superiority is scientifically false, morally reprehensible, socially unjust and dangerous ", and the anxiety expressed in it in connection with" manifestations of racial discrimination still occurring in some parts of the world, which in some cases is rooted in the governments of individual countries by legislative, administrative or other measures ”,
                    Recalling also that, in its resolution 3151 G (XXVIII) of 14 December 1973, the General Assembly condemned, inter alia, the wicked alliance between South African racism and Zionism,

                    Decides that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.

                    And on the night of November 10-11, 1975, Zionism was officially declared a form of racial intolerance - the UN General Assembly, with 72 votes in favor, 35 against and 32 abstentions, adopted Resolution 3379, declaring Zionism a form of racism.
                    "Civilized mankind" did not like this situation, the building of "universal human values" they were creating collapsed, and they began to try to cancel the resolution. While the USSR was strong, it fought off the vain attempts of the racists, but a week before the collapse of the USSR, on December 16, 1991, the resolution was canceled.
                    My webpage
                    1. Karish
                      Karish 13 October 2012 14: 29
                      -2
                      Quote: Ascetic
                      On the contrary, with two hands! Especially if you take with you the entire fifth column of grant-eaters somewhere in a separate kibbutz.
                      What about Zionism

                      So YOU ​​Ascetic is a Zionist?
                      Quote: Ascetic
                      Decides that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination.

                      After the collapse of the eastern bloc, at the request of the United States and Israel, the resolution was repealed on December 16, 1991 by resolution 46/86 of the UN General Assembly. 111 states voted for the adoption of the resolution (including almost 30 of those who voted for the original resolution, including the USSR), 25 against, 13 abstained [22]. Israel also stipulated its consent to participate in the 1991 Madrid Peace Conference by repealing resolution 3379.

                      Ascetic, do you always distort so? Why didn’t you emphasize that it was canceled? Why didn’t they write that Russia voted to cancel? Are you an example of honesty and tolerance? I’m just saying save and sing. It’s hard to speak the truth.

                      I'm not talking about the fact that the UN biased organization voted in general, for anything for the implementation of political goals.
                      How do you comment on the resolution of the UN General Assembly on Syria?
                      The UN General Assembly on Friday adopted a majority resolution on Syria. The Russian delegation considered it “unbalanced and voted against. The resolution was supported by 133 countries, 12 countries voted against it, 31 countries abstained. It is reported
                      Read more on Forbes.ru: http://www.forbes.ru/news/84895-rossiya-progolosovala-protiv-rezolyutsii-genassa
                      mblei-oon-po-sirii

                      You really sort it out with yourself. And then one resolution is suitable, another is not suitable, that canceled the same is not suitable. What about Ascetic?
                      The opinion of the UN General Assembly does not coincide with the opinion of a single Ascetic? Or why are we distorting the facts? Sincerely .

                      1. Ascetic
                        Ascetic 13 October 2012 14: 58
                        +7
                        Quote: Karish
                        It's hard to speak the truth


                        Especially hard about semi-colonial and prophetic Yeltsin Russia
                        and Gorbachevsky USSR

                        Quote: Karish
                        I'm not talking about the fact that the UN biased organization voted in general, for anything for the implementation of political goals


                        Now yes, engaged by all of your defenders from across the ocean, not a single aggression was prevented after the collapse of the USSR, including and Syria with Iran will not become an obstacle, But at that time there is no, or recall the history of the Arab-Israeli wars?
                      2. Karish
                        Karish 13 October 2012 15: 06
                        -2
                        Quote: Ascetic
                        Especially hard about semi-colonial and prophetic Yeltsin Russia
                        and Gorbachevsky USSR

                        Like 111 more states, yes Ascetic? Or do you think that Russia under Putin would vote for the return of the resolution (canceled)
                        Quote: Ascetic
                        Now yes, engaged by all of yours from across the ocean,

                        Ascetic, the last resolution condemning Israel was adopted on 19.11.11/XNUMX/XNUMX (what happens regularly at each general assembly - the last time this was due to stagnation in the peace negotiations)
                        Somehow with the facts you have Ascetic. very bad ? As you pull all the time just convenient for yourself, do not answer questions. evade all the time, translate the arrows. Come on, clearly. beautiful and factual. Then maybe all the husks fall away? Comrade Marshall.
                      3. Ascetic
                        Ascetic 13 October 2012 15: 29
                        +8
                        Quote: Karish
                        Somehow with the facts you have Ascetic. very bad ? As you pull all the time just convenient for yourself, do not answer questions. evade all the time, translate the arrows. Come on, clearly. beautiful and factual. Then maybe all the husks fall away? Comrade Marshall.


                        Yes. It’s hard to realize the truth that you live in a racist state ... But you need to be angry only at yourself .. it’s useless for me .. Because it’s Neya .. It really hurts my eyes ..
                        UN expert: Israel is a fascist state

                        Source: http://ozersk24.ru/news/yekspert-on-izrail-fashistskoe-gosudarstvo.html
                        @ Ozersk24.ru

                        Chicken mom (fascist Germany) laid her egg in Palestine, from which the disgusting Israeli regime hatched.

                        My webpage
                      4. Karish
                        Karish 13 October 2012 15: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Ascetic
                        UN expert: Israel is a fascist state

                        Portal of Ozersk, just a storehouse of information for you Ascetic.
                        I’ll find 300 more of these for you, at least for this. Even in early 1996
                        The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination noted an increase in the activity of racist organizations, an increase in racist sentiment among the population and symptoms of racial discrimination in Russia.
                        In 2003, the human rights organization Amnesty International issued a report entitled “Documents! Racial Discrimination in the Russian Federation ”, which examines in detail the various aspects of racism and discrimination in Russia [20].
                        A report by the same organization on May 3, 2006, Russian Federation: Violent racism out of control, states that there are regular racist attacks on foreigners and ethnic minorities in Russia. Such attacks have repeatedly led to racially motivated killings. Such attacks have been taking place for many years [21].
                        In 2006, Amnesty International reported that racism in Russia was “out of control” and in 2008 estimated the number of neo-Nazis at around 85000. [22] [23]
                        From 12 to 17 June 2006, Moscow and St. Petersburg was visited by the UN Special Rapporteur on contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance, Dudu Dien. He concluded that, although there is no state policy of racism in the Russian Federation, Russian society is faced with an alarming tendency to increase racism and xenophobia [24].

                        Quote: Ascetic
                        Chicken mom (fascist Germany) laid her egg in Palestine, from which the disgusting Israeli regime hatched

                        Yes Ascetic, the same eggs only in profile. Facts at the level of the game in the children's sandbox and nothing more. Pretty wretched Mr. Ascet . And the questions on Syria, as there were no answers and no. All the while wobbling to the side and translating arrows.
                      5. Kaa
                        Kaa 13 October 2012 22: 16
                        +4
                        Quote: Ascetic
                        Chicken mom (fascist Germany) laid her egg in Palestine, from which the disgusting Israeli regime hatched.

                        Here it was back in 1934, released in Nazi Germany ...
                  2. Ascetic
                    Ascetic 13 October 2012 14: 32
                    +1
                    Quote: Karish
                    Since when is it shameful to be a patriot of your country, and Ascetic?


                    If the country is racist or Nazi like fascist Germany, racist in the past, South Africa and Zionist Israel, then there is no shame
                2. igor67
                  igor67 13 October 2012 13: 58
                  0
                  Ascetic,
                  Ascetic buddy, what did Kramorov not please, because he was a Jew? The demotivator did not look, and so it is clear
                  1. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 13 October 2012 14: 11
                    +2
                    Quote: igor67

                    Ascetic buddy, what did Kramorov not please, because he was a Jew?

                    Hi Igor, it's not about the Jews, it's about the people and what they say.
                  2. Ascetic
                    Ascetic 13 October 2012 14: 13
                    +5
                    Quote: igor67
                    Ascetic buddy, what did Kramorov not please, because he was a Jew? The demotivator did not look, and so it is clear


                    As soon as the Jews moved from Russia, they began to change their sense of humor and self-irony. Indeed, where does Kramorov when the keywords
                    Yes, who will ban him. -POSIT ...
                    Is it really that way in the Promised Land?
                    1. Karish
                      Karish 13 October 2012 14: 20
                      +1
                      Quote: Ascetic
                      Yes, who will ban him.


                      Yes, Ascetic, was banned for 2 days, for such a trifle for which half of the site is not even warned, and at the same time --- OOPS, more than 800 comments were erased (as if by chance).
                    2. igor67
                      igor67 13 October 2012 20: 34
                      +3
                      Ascetic,
                      Yes, not everything is fine, just hurried to the sea laughing
                3. Yarbay
                  Yarbay 13 October 2012 14: 48
                  +4
                  Dear Stanislav!
                  I know you as a very clever and sane person !!
                  Do you really believe in the Zionist world conspiracy?
                  I think it’s simpler, a conspiracy of people united by a love of money and a desire for world gazodstva!
                  1. Alexander Romanov
                    Alexander Romanov 13 October 2012 14: 52
                    +3
                    Quote: Yarbay

                    I think it’s simpler, a conspiracy of people united by a love of money and a desire for world gazodstva!

                    Alibek you are 100% right, just remember how the names of these people what
                    1. Yarbay
                      Yarbay 13 October 2012 15: 02
                      +3
                      Quote: Alexander Romanov
                      Alibek you are 100% right, just remember how the names of these people

                      Sanya, the leaders of large Western states are included in this group ??
                      I think so, since they are at least direct performers, do they have suspicious surnames ??)))))))))
                      For fun, we can see the last 20 years !!
                      1. Alexander Romanov
                        Alexander Romanov 13 October 2012 15: 06
                        +5
                        Quote: Yarbay
                        Do the leaders of large Western states belong to this group?

                        Not Alibek, they are not included. These leaders borrow money from them for elections and not only. Money rules the world - MONEY.
                        Quote: Yarbay
                        I think so, because I am direct at least performers

                        To a point, it is the performers who pay that order the music.
                        Quote: Yarbay
                        For fun, we can see the last 20 years !!

                        It’s possible for 40, it will be the same hi
                      2. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 13 October 2012 17: 15
                        +2
                        Hi Alibek! I don’t agree, they can and do not enter, but be hired managers or crisis directors, depending on the situation
                      3. Yarbay
                        Yarbay 13 October 2012 17: 20
                        +1
                        Hi Ruslan!
                        I am very glad to see you!
                        Quote: Ruslan67
                        I don’t agree, they can and do not enter, but be hired managers or crisis directors, depending on the situation
                        for example, but they have no less control over the situation and can change a lot if they wish !!
                        And a lot depends on the personality of this or that leader !!!
                      4. Ruslan67
                        Ruslan67 13 October 2012 18: 29
                        +2
                        absolutely agree! a lot depends on the personality, but for the last time, politicians have been so crushed that it’s hard to call them politicians and at the highest level middle managers and the latter are knocked out so that Gaddafi doesn’t stand out against the general background but he kept the country in his fist for 40 years and his current portfolios they can’t share, and even make a coup a la Pinochet with minimal casualties and for decades to come, still completely oh!
                  2. Ascetic
                    Ascetic 13 October 2012 15: 08
                    +6
                    Quote: Yarbay
                    I think it’s simpler, a conspiracy of people united by a love of money and a desire for world gazodstva!


                    And these people just as the idea of ​​world domination chose the idea of ​​God's chosen people and exclusivity of the Jewish people who received the Testament from God, only creatively reworked it, as a result of settlement Zionism a new form of racism-Zionism has arisen. You cannot deny that the theory of racial and intellectual superiority of civilized nations over the colonial policy of the European aristocracy savages which need to be civilized as an excuse
                    colonial slavery. Like they needed Nazism, now Zionism ... No need will become Israel will be some sort of -ism ..
                    They themselves do not hide this, there are a lot of examples. And more than once I brought them here
                    1. Yarbay
                      Yarbay 13 October 2012 15: 19
                      +1
                      Quote: Ascetic
                      And these people just as the idea of ​​world domination chose the idea of ​​God's chosen people and the exclusivity of the Jewish people who received the Testament from God

                      In my opinion, these are two mutually exclusive concepts, faith in God and the idea of ​​exclusivity !!
                      Is not it??
                      Quote: Ascetic
                      You cannot deny that the colonial policy of the European aristocracy was based on the theory of the racial and intellectual superiority of civilized nations over the savages of which must be civilized as an excuse
                      I do not deny, but did the state of Israel proclaim it, I mean this idea ??
                      Or are all Jews telling us one thing, and at night to pray to Satan under the bed ???
                      Quote: Ascetic
                      Like they needed Nazism, now Zionism.

                      This is generally a hopeless case then, with such blows on your own you can finally destroy yourself !!
                      Quote: Ascetic
                      Israel will not be needed any more isism ..
                      They themselves do not hide this, there are a lot of examples. And more than once I brought them here
                      I do not argue that Israel has a very significant power in the world and until recently, just as you thought, but thanks to the explanations of the local Israelites here, I changed my mind on some things !!
                    2. Beck
                      Beck 15 October 2012 12: 25
                      0
                      God's chosenness. Judaism, at the heart of its origin, is pagan faith. Faith of Jews and only Jews. Just like pagan faith - Tengrianism for the Turks. Perun for the Slavs.

                      And I do not think that the word God's chosen people in those distant times meant today - power over the world.
                4. Aaron Zawi
                  Aaron Zawi 13 October 2012 15: 25
                  0
                  Ascetic
                  You would at least write the Rothschilds. fellow Rockefellers Which side of the Jews belong to? laughing
                  1. Karish
                    Karish 13 October 2012 16: 29
                    0
                    Quote: Aron Zaavi
                    You would at least write the Rothschilds. Rockefellers Which side of the Jews belong to?

                    Just the site of the city of Ozyorsk (the link to which Ascetic kindly provided me) does not explain such nuances. The surname is not Russian and rich - it means a Jew. Ascetic always had a selection of facts and answers to questions uncomfortable to him, there was a stretch, to say the least.
        3. Flooding
          Flooding 13 October 2012 16: 53
          0
          Quote: Karish
          If now the new government of Georgia guarantees autonomy and rights of Abkhazians and Ossetians, what will Russia do?

          Ossetia and Abkhazia are not Russian territories, so I don’t think that if the majority of the population wants it (will they want it?) Russia will have the opportunity to influence the situation.
          But while such a picture seems unrealizable. Precisely because the Ossetians and Abkhazians, after all that has happened, are unlikely to want to return. Unless the USA promise them golden mountains and a visa-free regime.
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 13 October 2012 17: 00
            +1
            Quote: Flood
            Ossetia and Abkhazia are not Russian territories, so I don’t think that if the majority of the population wants it (will they want it?) Russia will have the opportunity to influence the situation

            and they don’t want solely because of incitement and hidden and open support of Russia!
            And it is a fact !!
            Remember the secret arms transfers, providing the population with Russian passports and much more!
            Most of all, it was Russia that influenced and has influence and not to see it is simply ridiculous!
          2. Karish
            Karish 13 October 2012 23: 59
            0
            Quote: Flood
            Ossetia and Abkhazia are not Russian territories

            Well yes . such as bantustans in South Africa, like separate territories laughing
            Quote: Flood
            Unless the USA promise them golden mountains and a visa-free regime

            And what will Russia throw for this?
            1. Aaron Zawi
              Aaron Zawi 14 October 2012 00: 14
              +1
              Karish
              By the way, if Abkhazia through 15-30 can be imagined as a normal sovereign state, then South Ossetia is an absolutely unviable entity.
              1. Beck
                Beck 14 October 2012 11: 44
                0
                There is a possibility that in the future, South Ossetia, whether by referendum or parliament’s decision, will reunite with North Ossetia. As a result, it will automatically become part of Russia.

                In Abkhazia, in the future, a referendum on joining Russia is also possible.

                Perhaps such a distant sight was what the Kremlin had in mind when it provided all kinds of support to these republics. In terms of "collecting land".
  20. Magadan
    Magadan 13 October 2012 10: 54
    +4
    Quote: Yarbay
    To learn mutually beneficial cooperation, to oppose a coherent policy to the double standards of the West, and not to copy the mistakes of the West !!

    I agree. Nobody argues that Georgian wines will be popular with us, and this is a pretty good source of income for Georgia. But politics - you just have to declare to the whole world that we are against "universal" values, against homosexual meat, against juvenile girls and other Western shit. And what are we for the way that is adopted in each individual country and culture. And that we have this position from time immemorial. In short, what we are for Traditions and Traditional values. And whoever comes to us with a hamburger forcibly will die from the hamburger.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay 13 October 2012 11: 15
      0
      Dear Magadan!
      Thanks for your support
      Quote: Magadan
      And that this position has been with us for centuries.

      but here I do not agree, do not blame me !!
      Quote: Magadan
      But politics - you just need to declare to the whole world that we are against "universal" values, against homosexual meat, against juveniles and other Western shit

      You personally, like me, are against it, but are those who make your policy against it ??
      1. Ruslan67
        Ruslan67 13 October 2012 17: 25
        +4
        Alibek! and if you look from the other side? What are we supposed to sit and watch as a country existing on the world map only because Russia saved it from destruction in full swing is going to universal values, quotes are too lazy to put in the EU and NATO? Yes polynomial them all over makeup! we have one more such saved ones, so they are at least silent in a rag, and if they do so secretly
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay 13 October 2012 17: 50
          +1
          Quote: Ruslan67
          and if you look from the other side? What should we sit and watch as a country existing on the world map only because Russia saved it from destruction in full swing is going to universal values, quotes are too lazy to put in the EU and NATO?

          Yes, in no case should I sit, but where is a coherent policy ???
          Where is the idea ?? where is the following idea ??
          where is the attraction?


          Quote: Ruslan67
          Yes polynomial them all over makeup!

          I do not argue with this)))))))))))))
          1. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 13 October 2012 18: 49
            +2
            a coherent policy is not always needed - let the players sort things out among themselves first which is smaller all the same equality is good on paper
  21. tan0472
    tan0472 13 October 2012 11: 00
    0
    Georgia can change its course as it pleases. The problem (insoluble) is that the water area of ​​Georgia is a narrow channel between the USA and Russia.
  22. Oleg14774
    Oleg14774 13 October 2012 11: 18
    +1
    I agree, an unsuccessful photo, a mistake came out. He’s just handsome next to Saakashvili! :)
  23. razved
    razved 13 October 2012 12: 07
    0
    Radical changes are not worth the wait. Americans replaced one with another. That's all.
  24. dfdfdfd
    dfdfdfd 13 October 2012 12: 13
    -4
    Saakashvili has established relations with the West, Iran and Turkey need to use Russia, too, and Ukraine and Belarus do not disdain this no matter what the non-Russians are, but the Kremlin is full of money from oil and gas, it’s silly not to use it ...
  25. baltika-18
    baltika-18 13 October 2012 12: 49
    +2
    Ivanishvili is a billionaire. And any billionaire in the modern world is tied to the world financial elite, without which he simply could not become one. He is manageable and will primarily be guided by the opinion of world financial clans. In any case, there will be changes, it was not in vain that they shoved him there.
  26. NAV-STAR
    NAV-STAR 13 October 2012 13: 00
    +1
    I think Ivanishvili is not the leader who will lead relations with Russia to a warmer course, since the billionaire will not risk his property, which is clearly located somewhere in European banks and in fabulous jurisdictions. The strings are really painful.
    1. Sanches
      Sanches 13 October 2012 13: 28
      +1
      that’s exactly the man who does not like to take risks, and will not bring to war
  27. Karish
    Karish 13 October 2012 13: 25
    +2
    Quote: NAV-STAR
    I think Ivanishvili is not the leader who will lead relations with Russia to a warmer course, since the billionaire will not risk his property, which is clearly located somewhere in European banks and in fabulous jurisdictions. The strings are really painful.

    All Russian aligarchs (including the top authorities) have money in the West and so what? It does not play roles. Without a settlement (worthy and not infringing on the pride of the Georgians, the South Ossetian and Abkhazian problems, Georgia is lost for Russia. People did not vote for Ivanishvili because Saakashvili was against Russia, democratic elections, they have their own problems, but Russia has an attitude to Russia Georgians (for the most part) are the same .- negative.
    The situation will happen again, as with Yanukovych - they thought it would come and all Ukraine would lie down and spread its legs. The problems between Russia and the countries of the former Soviet Union are much deeper and the first thing Russia should get rid of is looking at these new states from high. We need to talk with them on equal terms, then there will be respect and understanding., And since every stone holds from behind it. The policy of pressure only leads to the fact that these countries will begin to look for other allies and patrons if you want. Is it profitable for Russia? I don’t understand at all, to flaunt Syria without an account, yes. To lower the price of gas to the brothers Ukrainians-no. Why? Why you need to spread rot on your own, but you don’t know who to help before the grave? I won’t believe that Assad, Korea and a dozen other countries, to forgive debts for Russia is more profitable than helping Ukraine (yes it will cost some money, not more than they swelled into Syria ), but the people of Ukraine will see a good gesture of Russia, especially for them. for the brothers of the Slavs and I’m sure will not forget it.
    And so - Ukraine sells gas more expensive than Germany (they probably forgot who fought with whom and on the side). All the countries of the former Soviet Union, fleeing from Russia, some are already enemies, but we lived together for 70 years, there is no language barrier, a huge stratum of Russians - it was necessary to establish contacts with these countries first (or rather not break), and if it were necessary pay a little - so what? USA - pays and nothing. Or do you think that Assad is an ally for ideological reasons (like the other sexes of the world that the USSR paid for), turn off the tap - and Syria will forget which side Russia is on. So maybe it’s better to help your own? Create a cordon of allies around you, ensure normal transit of goods and gas through friendly countries, and do not take roundabout routes and again seem to get them through (spending billions on new gas pipelines). But gas bypasses will neither make Ukraine, nor Moldova, nor Baltic States friends.
    They must be supported first of all, and then various odious regimes and politicians.
    1. Ascetic
      Ascetic 13 October 2012 14: 47
      +4
      Quote: Karish
      Russia must get rid, so it is from looking at these new states from high. We need to talk with them on equal terms, then there will be respect and understanding., And since every stone holds from behind it.


      Are you and Arabs talking on equal terms? and they do not hold a stone in a bosom?
      Or is the Empire of Good talking on equal terms with everyone?

      Quote: Karish
      They must be supported first of all, and then various odious regimes and politicians.

      In politics..there are no eternal enemies and eternal friends, but there are eternal interests"
      Also, there are no friendly countries — the USSR’s experience is the clearest example. Assad is beneficial today, so as not to let Qatari gas go to Europe, we will support Syria, Ukraine will join the Customs Union and not Ukraine will support Ukraine.
      1. Karish
        Karish 13 October 2012 14: 55
        0
        Quote: Ascetic
        Are you and Arabs talking on equal terms? and they do not hold a stone in a bosom?

        But they never were brothers to us, and we did not live in the same state.
        If you spoke with Germany in the same way as we did with the Arabs, it would be understandable. But why do you sell gas to Germany cheaper than your brothers Ukrainians, or not?
        Quote: Ascetic
        Or is the Empire of Good talking on equal terms with everyone?

        Of course not, but the US and I have never been a single state or blood brothers
        Quote: Ascetic
        In politics ... there are no eternal enemies and eternal friends, but there are eternal interests "

        Aw, Ascetic, ran into a question,
        What is Russia's interest in Syria?
        What has Syria done for Russia as a friend and ally?
        Why is investing in Syria and S. Korea more profitable than in Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Azerbaijan?
        Quote: Ascetic
        Ukraine will enter the TS

        To do this, you must at least behave with her like a brother, and not drive gas twice as expensive as the Germans.
      2. Yarbay
        Yarbay 13 October 2012 15: 08
        +1
        Quote: Ascetic
        In politics ... there are no eternal enemies and eternal friends, but there are eternal interests "
        There are also no friendly countries - the experience of the USSR is the clearest example of this.

        in politics, the allies change when the cementing state weakens and begins to rush !!
        Why do you consider Stanislav the USSR a prime example ?!
        Look throughout the entire period, except in relation to Kazakhstan, and on the contrary, has something changed or Belarus ??
        And why???
        It was just that no one stirred up their territories and feeling support, and they did not betray the allied duty !!
    2. Feroma
      Feroma 13 October 2012 18: 03
      0
      Great comment, BUT you forgot that about "time" and "money". Time - something that has passed in 20 years can no longer be returned, I already wrote about Yeltsin and the evil that this drunk caused the country, and so in 20 years the former fraternal peoples have become enemies and Money is today's elite of Russia (and these are oligarchs) consider it unprofitable to invest in friendly relations with Ukraine, Belarus, etc. everywhere they calculate first of all "profit", and investing money in politically unstable regimes is not profitable, and the past 20 years of joint enmity hinder the establishment of relations. So the union of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus is a utopia.
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 13 October 2012 18: 35
        0
        Quote: Feroma
        Great comment, BUT you forgot that about "time" and "money".
        Yes, I do not remember!
        Just the question was that there are no eternal friends, but there are eternal interests !! I do not agree!
        Quote: Feroma
        and the past 20 years of joint enmity hinder the establishment of relations

        I would say distrust !!
        Quote: Feroma
        So the union of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus is a utopia.

        And I think sooner or later it will be, but only after the way of thinking of politicians changes and finally they find a common attractive idea!
  28. crambol
    crambol 13 October 2012 15: 52
    +2
    Let him become anyone, but so that the American spirit would not be near our border!
  29. sergskak
    sergskak 13 October 2012 16: 06
    0
    and in Russia guess
    Yes, let those who chose him wonder. If he has not yet received instructions from the State Department, so soon he will receive or will cease to be a figurant of Forbes. We need to take this calmly and take a "wait and see" position. ps The sum does not change from the change of the places of the terms. And the face is really alarming.
    1. owl
      owl 14 October 2012 15: 55
      0
      Quote: sergskak
      and in Russia guess

      It’s right in Russia for a long time they haven’t wondered about Georgia, in Russia they have forgotten who this Georgia is and where it is located.
  30. Vladimir 70
    Vladimir 70 13 October 2012 16: 09
    +3
    Ivanishvili won the election, as democratic elections were held in Georgia - all this is complete nonsense! Mishiko was merged by the United States, otherwise "they would have counted the votes as they should" and Mishiko would have won again. Now the question arises: why did the USA merge Mishiko? .... The answer is very simple - in 2013 Georgia will have to start paying off its debts. The USA can no longer support Georgians, and Georgia can earn money only by supplying "wine" and "water" to Russia. The conclusion suggests itself - Russia should establish trade and economic ties with Georgia only when Georgia condemns Mishiko’s policies at the state level! Otherwise, after 5 years a new Mishiko will appear.
  31. Allegedly
    Allegedly 13 October 2012 19: 22
    -1
    Can? laughing Doomed! laughing
    1. Allegedly
      Allegedly 13 October 2012 19: 46
      +2
      Not so long ago, I had a slightly similar article, but this one covers the topic much deeper. Georgia is no more, there is Georgia, it is their right and their choice. Logically reasoning, there are no Georgians either, there are Georgians. again, this is their right and their choice. And I personally respect him.
      1. Allegedly
        Allegedly 13 October 2012 22: 47
        +1
        I will allow myself to continue the thought further. So it is expensive to maintain Georgia, and the possessed Mishiko has already set the whole world on edge, and what should the poor amers do? We need to come up with a formula for happiness in order to shift the cost of maintaining Georgia to the "Russian Vanya". But "Russian Vanya, although he sits on the stove and talks to fish, is still not a fool, which means that soon, under the sensitive but invisible patronage of the Amers, the Djordzhiks will come to Belokamennaya ... Hello brothers fellow we threw off the dictator bully , to us the market your poor man again atkrivay a duster, and come on, a lot of come on. My friends ... I give 1-3 months to the fact that everything will be in general terms as I described ...
        1. thatupac
          thatupac 13 October 2012 23: 48
          +1
          The creditor, that is America, will not allow it. Not for the sake of this scenario, only 6 billion US dollars were invested by the United States and Bidzina was delivered by American political strategists.
        2. owl
          owl 14 October 2012 15: 50
          0
          Du dear deeply mistaken !!!!! laughing
  32. markevo
    markevo 13 October 2012 20: 41
    0
    yes! ...........
  33. Kyrgyz
    Kyrgyz 13 October 2012 20: 49
    +2
    He says that he will establish an economy with Russia and join NATO, it’s like going in the direction of the South-North, Saakashvili gazed at the Georgians and the scenery changed him, that's all
    1. Vanyatka
      Vanyatka 13 October 2012 21: 01
      +2
      But I wonder how he will do it? "Both yours and ours" ... Quite a strange policy. With NATO, their trousers are falling, so it is better to cooperate with one Russia-whole will be.
  34. thatupac
    thatupac 13 October 2012 21: 20
    +3
    Georgia has long been bolted to the United States by cash loans. So Sahaki will be there or Bidzina, nothing will change. People will change, but the meaning remains. And America will return Georgia to the beginning of the 90s very easily.
    1. ESCANDER
      ESCANDER 13 October 2012 21: 27
      0
      “Tightened to the United States with cash loans” ...
      It is bolted to Russia by history, and relatives living in the Russian Federation are also “bolted”.
      Priorities must be changed, and it’s never too late to pay off debts (the United States will wait, if Russia chooses a word, as always).
      1. IGR
        IGR 13 October 2012 23: 32
        0
        Lucky one who is lucky.
        To live it is necessary to plow, sow, plow to sow, but for now they only love to eat.
        [img]http://im6-tub-ru.yandex.net/i?id=242149005-36-72&n=21[/img]
  35. IGR
    IGR 13 October 2012 23: 43
    0
    .... plow, sow, plow, sow ..... And you only love to eat ....
  36. wax
    wax 14 October 2012 01: 28
    +1
    Russia resignedly gave Saakashvili full control of Adjara, after which he promised the Georgians "before the new year" to restore control over South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russia imposed an embargo against South Ossetia and Abkhazia, but Saakashvili could not find a solution to the problem of relations with them, despite the big carte blanche in time. And this president gave the order to shoot at the Russian peacekeepers and destroy them in the first hours of the war (which I have no doubt about, and then, if successful, they would blame everything on Russian aggression, for which the entire world press was already oriented). But Misha lost both South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Saakashvili's treachery cannot be forgiven, and Russia will never, I hope, spit in its own face to move away from decisions drenched in Russian blood. So any leader of Georgia now has a stalemate. Either South Ossetia and Abkhazia must be admitted that they are not ready to accept the Georgian people, or they must be reclaimed South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which is impossible due to the balance of forces. So Georgia will be in stagnation and its entire future in the near future depends on Washington: will it throw it at a hospital, road or port ... Iran, the Caucasus as a whole, etc.
    1. Beck
      Beck 14 October 2012 11: 54
      0
      Wax.

      The relations of Georgia with Abkhazia and South Ossetia and Georgia with Adjara have different preconditions.

      Abkhazians and Ossetians are independent nations, having no relation to Georgians by blood.

      Adzharians are pure ethnic Georgians. Only faithful Adzharians profess not Christianity, but Islam.
  37. wolverine7778
    wolverine7778 14 October 2012 13: 58
    0
    Unambiguously, Saakashvili will keep an eye on Ivanishvili, so that he won’t be taken somewhere in the wrong place, so the Rose Revolution 2 cannot be ruled out, similarly to Kyrgyzstan with its endless tulip revolutions, so Ivanishvili’s only way out is to fall into authoritarianism, because strong opposition doesn’t it will be acceptable, but this is a question of what Ivanishvili is made of, whether he can go to the killings, etc. in future request
  38. Goldkonstantin
    Goldkonstantin 14 October 2012 15: 31
    0
    Whatever it was, the decline of the Saakashvili era has definitely begun. Obviously, Ivanishvili now faces a crossroads: on the one hand, tempting promises that the West will feed him, but on the other, an important neighbor - Russia, with which, to put it mildly, not everything went smoothly under Saakashvili. But judging by his speeches, he still intends to improve relations between the countries. It’s probably too early to talk about Georgia’s return to the CIS, but a "thaw" is possible.
    1. owl
      owl 14 October 2012 15: 45
      0
      I don’t think that Russia needs some sort of grubbing with Georgia, but Georgia’s trade relations with Russia are simply vital. Given the backwardness of the economy, and the complete impoverishment of the country's population, this will help the population of this country improve their economic situation.
  39. Farvil
    Farvil 14 October 2012 19: 14
    0
    And then the Jews came to power, they pumped Russian blood, they got rich. There’s nothing good for us from this, they all look the other way.