The real unification of military equipment is an important consequence of the special operation "Z"

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RZSO "Hurricane" is perhaps the most unique vehicle of the ground forces. Source: smolgazeta.ru

Unification is more important than innovation


The experience of combat operations for any army is invaluable. At times, it can radically change views on the tactics and strategy of warfare, as well as on the military-industrial complex. So it was with the Second World War, which launched irreversible changes. For example, the unification of military equipment in the Soviet Union reached its climax by the end of the war.

By the way, this process moved in antiphase with the German approach. The technical vinaigrette that the Germans introduced on the fronts of the World War, although it was quite perfect, seriously complicated logistics, maintenance and repair.



In the Red Army, until the end of the war, there were only two main models on the assembly line tanks - T-34 and IS (KV). And one tank engine - V-2 in two versions for medium and heavy tanks. On the basis of these platforms, self-propelled artillery guns were built - tank destroyers and howitzers. During the war years, the T-44 with a transverse engine was ready for production, but due to low unification with existing tank models, it never became a replacement for the T-34-85. It was necessary to maintain significant production rates, and with the introduction of the T-44 on the conveyor, this would have caused serious problems. Therefore, they left the old car, which, most likely, brought Victory closer.



Self-propelled guns "Acacia" and "Msta-S". Source: sdelanounas.ru vladimirkrym.livejournal.com

Surprisingly, after the war, the experience of unifying armored vehicles and other weapons was rethought. And that's putting it mildly. We will not go into details, we will only note that during the special operation in Ukraine, all this story requires a special organization of rear services. It complicates the work, which means - efficiency is reduced. Just imagine what a wide range of artillery calibers are used by the allied forces and what difficulties arise with logistics.

So, artillery shells and mines with a caliber of 23 mm, 30 mm, 73 mm, 82 mm, 100 mm, 115 mm, 120 mm, 122 mm, 125 mm, 152 mm, 203 mm and 240 mm, as well as three RZSO calibers - 122 mm, 220 mm and 300 mm. Occasionally, 57-mm ammunition for dumbbells with an S-60 anti-aircraft gun can be used. Rifle calibers weapons - 5,45mm, 7,62mm, 9mm, 12,7mm and 14,5mm. At the same time, some of the ammunition of the same caliber is not interchangeable for different systems. For example, part of the 152-mm ammunition of the Msta-S gun does not fit the Akatsiya.

With a 152-mm caliber in the allied forces, perhaps the most important incident is that three self-propelled systems 2S19 Msta-S, 2S5 Hyacinth-S and 2S3 Akatsiya use the same projectile size at once. Of course, the Hyacinth-S self-propelled gun is knocked out of this row, but the specifics of using guns and howitzers are so fundamentally different that it requires two platforms at once - tank and self-propelled "Object-123"? Each platform has its own set of nodes, assemblies and service specifics.

In this regard, the words of Viktor Ivanovich Murakhovsky, a retired colonel, editor-in-chief of the Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine, published in his Telegram channel of the same name, are indicative:

“Unification is more important than innovation.
Single platforms (bases / chassis) are more important than the completeness of the nomenclature.
Seriality is more important than uniqueness.
The presence in the ranks is more important than prospects.
New ammunition is more important than new calibers.
The resource is more important than the limiting parameters.
Not breaking is more important than fixing.
Ergonomics is more important than tight packaging.
Crew qualification is more important than performance characteristics.
Organization is more important than qualifications.
Maintaining skills is more important than records.
The quality of command and control is more important than the quality of armored vehicles.
Interaction in combat is more important than anything else.
The preservation of the crew / landing force is more important than the preservation of equipment.
Courage is more important than dementia, but professionalism is more important than courage.”

You can talk about most of the theses for a long time, but in this case we are interested in the problem of a wide range of weapons in Ukraine and what to do about it.

The heavy legacy of the USSR


The situation in the Russian army has developed under the influence of a huge stockpile of weapons of the late Soviet era. Saving on defense spending in the USSR was not accepted, which caused the "misappropriation" of funds. For example, the Akatsiya self-propelled gun was built on the Object 123 tracked base, which is also used for the Krug air defense system and the Giacint-S self-propelled gun. But in 1983, a more advanced Msta-S was added, already on a dearmored T-80 platform with MTO from the T-72.

As the developers write, "howitzer armor provides protection for the crew, weapons, mechanisms and ammunition carried from armor-piercing bullets and shrapnel." The realization of the benefits of using a single tank base for artillery guns came already at the end of the Soviet Union. Although it has been clear since the Second World War. Following Msta-S, the Pinocchio / Solntsepek heavy flamethrower system was also built on a tank base. The platform of the tank is also stronger, and the range of spare parts does not need to be expanded. But thousands of Acacias and Hyacinths have already been built and are widely used in Ukraine.





Our tanks in Ukraine. All the legendary trinity in the collection. Source: theconversation.com

It may seem that everything is in order with domestic tanks in this story. But it's not. In the special operation, the allied forces are now using three lines of armored vehicles with modifications at once - T-72, T-80 and T-64. Three crowns of the design school of Kharkov, Leningrad and Nizhny Tagil. The interchangeability of tanks ends at the stage of ammunition: engines, transmissions and chassis are completely different.

All tanks are good in their own way and for some time they were in service with the Soviet army at the same time. The armored “troika” even in peacetime gave a lot of headaches to deputy troopers, and in the realities of an armed conflict, the difficulties increase manifold. Now in Ukraine, this assortment has been supplemented by decommissioned T-62s, which also have a 115-mm cannon caliber. In this case, all tanks are used, with a few exceptions, to solve similar problems. Unless they try not to let the T-62 into dangerous areas.

Is such diversity justified in terms of logistics and logistics? The question is rhetorical and once again confirms the severity of the technical heritage of the Soviet army. More precisely - a rash waste of funds.


RZSO "Hurricane" based on ZIL-135LM is technically the most controversial vehicle of the "Z" special operation. Source: pinterest

В news gallant Russian gunners on the Uragan MLRS often appear on the ribbons. Many talk about the indisputable advantages of the machine, but completely forget what platform the machine is based on. This is the ZIL-135LM, the last serial brainchild of the legendary designer of the SKB ZIL, Vitaly Grachev.

The machine, adopted back in 1963, is completely unique - two gasoline carburetor engines are located between the 1st and 2nd pairs of wheels and drive the wheels of the left and right sides, respectively. The machine does not have axles as such - final drives are used to transmit torque. For full-fledged work, full synchronization of the operation of the motors is required, which is very difficult to achieve. There were attempts to replace two motors with a single power unit, but then it was necessary to completely reshape the transmission, which is comparable to building a new car.

Grachev laid another mine in the design of the 135th ZIL - he appointed the first and last pairs of wheels as turning. On the one hand, the car turns on one track and goes easier on virgin snow, and on the other hand, it is equipped with a complex steering system. We remember that according to Murakhovsky - "unification is more important than innovation." The question is why the Zilovsky dinosaur has not yet been replaced by the products of the Belarusian MZKT and the domestic BAZ?

In fairness, there is such a machine - "Hurricane-1M" on the MZKT-7930 chassis, but there are no more than a dozen such RZSOs in the army. Not only does the Hurricane RZSO require a separate delivery of gasoline, while the rest of the equipment “drinks” diesel fuel, it also needs its own range of spare parts. And driving the machine is not so easy - the turning kinematics are different from traditional four-axle vehicles.

If you go lower from heavy armored vehicles and RZSO, then it turns out that there is no unity in the class of trucks. The actual twins for the purpose of KamAZ and Ural use different engines. On products from Naberezhnye Chelny there are numerous modifications of KamAZ-740, and Miass trucks come to the army with diesel engines from Yaroslavl. Does it add convenience in maintenance and repair? It's good that at least the gearboxes of both are "KAMAZ".

In the class of light armored vehicles with unification in the Russian army, a couple is fighting - the Gazovsky "Tiger" and the Italian "Lynx" (nee Iveco LMV).

If you look up from the ground forces to the sky, it turns out that everything is not rosy here either. In the army aviation three models of helicopters are fighting the nationalists at once - Mi-24, Mi-28 and Ka-52. At the same time, they take out up to 60-80% of all combat work in the sky - for example, expensive Su-34s simply cannot operate at full strength due to the enemy’s live air defense.

A weak excuse in this situation is that the nationalists of the Armed Forces of Ukraine have an even greater variety of equipment. They only have three rifle calibers - NATO 5,56 mm and Soviet 5,45 mm and 7,62 mm. In the cannon cluster, the 155-mm caliber was also added to the legacy of the USSR. With tanks in the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the situation is similar to the Russian one - only there are much fewer gas turbine T-80s. With armored vehicles that have not yet been knocked out, it becomes more difficult day by day. All and sundry strive to install light equipment, forming a real technical zoo.

And now let's imagine what difficulties would be added by the latest Russian Armata tanks, Kurganets and Boomerang armored vehicles with Koalitsiya-SV self-propelled guns. There are a lot of commentators on the net waiting for this armored vehicle in Ukraine. All this innovative brethren would not only have to be protected from captivity with subsequent analysis in the West, but also to be supplied through a separate line. Even if the cars got to the front in trace amounts.

We will not know soon how unification at the current level affects events on the fronts. Analytical reports will first go through all the stages in the highest echelons of the military departments and only then will they reach the concerned citizens. One can only hope that the lessons of the special operation "Z" will be learned, unification will become real, and the work of repair teams with rear units will be greatly facilitated. And with this, the combat effectiveness of the army in the field will also increase.
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  1. +19
    12 July 2022 03: 58
    In! A real zamtechovsky look at the NE of the Russian Federation in the NWO on the outskirts and not only
    1. +25
      12 July 2022 05: 16
      Quote: Siberian54
      A real zamtechovsky look at the NE of the Russian Federation in the NE on the outskirts and not only

      What is reality?
      In the Red Army, until the end of the war, there were only two main models of tanks on the assembly line - T-34 and IS (KV)
      Well, IS and KV are VERY different machines, even KV-1 and KV-1S are very different. And besides these tanks, the T-60 and T-70 were produced for a very long time
      Now three lines of armored vehicles with modifications are used at once - T-72, T-80 and T-64.
      Did the T-62 pass by?
      Our whole problem today is not in the "legacy of the USSR", but in the fact that it is still in service and in reserve. The capabilities of the military industry of the USSR and the Russian Federation are several orders of magnitude different, and now the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation will not be able to quickly saturate the army with new unified equipment
      1. +13
        12 July 2022 09: 04
        I read up to the "heavy heritage of the USSR" (where would you be "wise men" now, without this "heavy heritage") and understood the "meaning" of everything else. So, "Unification"? ... The article is another substitution of the "superstructure" under the "basis" "(and not vice versa, as it should be"), another "pulling an owl on the globe", "deciphering" "what is happening" to near readers - well, so that everyone understands correctly, so to speak, in the right way ... It means hard, with supplies? And who is to blame for this? ....especially when you take up the "pen" or sit down at the "clave"" Yes lol
        1. 0
          14 July 2022 03: 10
          How to find a communist? In any case, even to the point of absurdity, he will pull up the "basis" with the "superstructure". Often without really understanding what it is at all.

          Yes, the legacy of the USSR is heavy in terms of a zoo of different cars. In "defective" (as you like to say) countries, this is usually not observed.
      2. +10
        12 July 2022 10: 02
        The reality is that this is a view from the first floor of a skyscraper .. Three tanks from the same combat niche and generation. But this is a trifle without which it’s hard to fight. The main lesson of this war is not that there is no unification, but that you will have to sharply invest in the development of anti-satellite camouflage , since the time to detect and transfer data to a third party has been reduced almost to online .. Perhaps this conclusion will be the main
        1. +9
          12 July 2022 12: 18
          but the fact that you will have to invest sharply with the development of anti-satellite camouflage

          All tactics must be redrawn under the phrase "Remember! Everything that you do right now is already seen by the enemy." The basis should be - "To see, he sees, but he does not have time to react"
          And according to unification, the author is well done - that's right. Helicopter squadrons and regiments were mixed. When the Mi-8T began to be replaced by the Mi-8MT, life became much easier. The MT-shka was unified with the Mi-24 in many junk.
      3. +3
        12 July 2022 14: 18
        Did the T-62 pass by?

        The author also mentioned the T-62:
        In the special operation, the allied forces are now using three lines of armored vehicles with modifications at once - T-72, T-80 and T-64. ...
        Now in Ukraine, this assortment has been supplemented by decommissioned T-62s, which also have a 115-mm cannon caliber.
      4. +3
        14 July 2022 01: 57
        The Soviet army had a tank zoo all the time. It’s also clear during the Second World War Lend-Lease and all that, but even then it didn’t end.
    2. -1
      12 July 2022 14: 01
      Quote: Siberian54
      Real zamtechovsky look

      Rather, zampotylovsky, well, or zampovooruzheniyu.
    3. +1
      13 July 2022 16: 05
      Quote: Siberian54
      In! A real zamtechovsky look at the NE of the Russian Federation in the NWO on the outskirts and not only

      And yet, yes, it is difficult to argue with the author, because he is right.
      But, if such a situation has arisen, then what to do? The simplest one is to arm individual military units each with their own specific weapons. If a tank battalion, then only one type of tank. And if the battalion is not separate, but is part of a tank regiment, then the entire regiment should be armed with this particular type. And so on for each type of weapon.
      Those. no need, as in aviation, mixed regiments.
      If in aviation this is a necessity, for solving the tasks facing the regiment, I don’t know, but in tank, as an example, the tasks are the same.
  2. +17
    12 July 2022 04: 21
    The question is rhetorical and once again confirms the severity of the technical heritage of the Soviet army. More precisely - a rash waste of funds.

    Well, tryndez! According to art: "Carnation" floating, how to unify with a tank? Chassis "Acacia", more precisely SU-100P was widely used in air defense systems, minzags and other artillery.
    As for tanks: there are a lot of three types per country, and if you count the Warsaw Pact, then nothing, but if you also count many countries with Soviet equipment? So it's not stupid at all. Let me remind you that NATO has 4 types of tanks, not counting Turkish and Italian perversions.
    Well
    Now three lines of armored vehicles with modifications are used at once - T-72, T-80 and T-64.
    64-ka then trophy strictly, then what is the claim?
    1. +2
      12 July 2022 04: 50
      They forgot T62 - they brought a whole echelon, they wrote on VO about it.
      1. +1
        12 July 2022 06: 25
        Quote: Nexcom
        They forgot T62 - they brought a whole echelon, they wrote on VO about it.

        For the People's Militia of the LDNR.
        1. +5
          12 July 2022 07: 26
          yes, it probably doesn’t matter to whom - they will obviously ask for spare parts from us in Russia.
          In LDNR, there are no warehouses like ours.
          1. -1
            12 July 2022 07: 35
            Quote: Nexcom
            yes, it probably doesn’t matter to whom - they will obviously ask for spare parts from us in Russia .. In the LDNR, there are no such warehouses as we have.
            How does it matter? Firstly, it’s a normal reason not just to cut cars into needles, but to use them properly, saving a more valuable motor resource. Secondly, the logistics will fall on the LDNR, and in a less tense situation of the second line. Thirdly, it will free up parks and warehouses.
            1. +6
              12 July 2022 07: 39
              that's about cutting into needles - it was not even in my thoughts. if these 62s help in general, then it’s just wonderful.
              1. 0
                12 July 2022 07: 41
                Quote: Nexcom
                if these 62s help in general, then it’s just wonderful.

                hi
                1. +1
                  12 July 2022 07: 53
                  Mutually hi

                  pancake does not allow short comments to answer.
    2. +3
      12 July 2022 16: 34
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      As for tanks: there are a lot of three types per country, and if you count the Warsaw Pact, then nothing, but if you also count many countries with Soviet equipment? So it's not stupid at all. Let me remind you that NATO has 4 types of tanks, not counting Turkish and Italian perversions.

      And what's the point of comparing one USSR and all of NATO? If the United States or Britain produced three MBTs, then it would be possible to compare. And so, each of the NATO countries had one of its own MBTs, the armed forces of these countries operated, supplied and repaired one of their models, and even on pre-designated theaters, and industry - also produced one model, and even unified (if possible) with the MBT of other NATO countries.
      1. 0
        12 July 2022 16: 46
        Quote: Alexey RA
        And what's the point of comparing one USSR and all of NATO?

        Please! I compare the ATS and NATO.
        Quote: Alexey RA
        and even on pre-designated theater
        So something similar to the Soviet MBT was supposed, plus the difference in the qualifications of the crews.
        In general, I think that the massive T-72 for all allies and sympathizers (solvent of course) made it possible to develop more advanced machines, although they played with the T-64, it became (but was not initially) superfluous.
        1. +2
          12 July 2022 17: 11
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Please! I compare the ATS and NATO.

          So if the ATS countries themselves made and maintained their MBTs, then it would be possible to compare. And so 3 serial MBT fell on the shoulders of one country.
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          In general, I think that the massive T-72 for all allies and sympathizers (solvent of course) made it possible to develop more advanced machines, although they played with the T-64, it became (but was not initially) superfluous.

          It was necessary either to feed the T-72, or, despite all the objections, to make the T-64 simplified in Tagil. And not only did we parallel Kharkiv and Tagil, we also dragged Leningrad into it. The Germans with their "three" and "four" against this background are miserable amateurs. smile
          1. +1
            13 July 2022 03: 38
            Quote: Alexey RA
            So if the ATS countries themselves made and maintained their MBTs, then it would be possible to compare. And so 3 serial MBT fell on the shoulders of one country.
            T-72 was produced under license (not free) by ChS and Poland. The T-72 was assembled in India and bought by Syria and Iraq (all three are generally not free). So don't, so "on the shoulders" is an exaggeration.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            It was necessary either to feed the T-72, or, despite all the objections, to make the T-64 simplified in Tagil. And not only did we parallel Kharkiv and Tagil, we also dragged Leningrad into it.
            It was necessary to cut the 64-ku, with its weak chassis, but thanks to the Khokhlolobby ((. And the 80-ki turbine is the future that was ruined along with the Union.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The Germans with their "three" and "four" against this background are miserable amateurs.
            And the "five" is the T-80 or what? laughing It’s a pity that 64 didn’t become a “three-ruble note”, which they tied up with.
            1. 0
              13 July 2022 10: 43
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              T-72 was produced under license (not free) by ChS and Poland. The T-72 was assembled in India and bought by Syria and Iraq (all three are generally not free). So don't, so "on the shoulders" is an exaggeration.

              So there are no questions about the T-72. But we still had two MBTs of the first line - purely Soviet and only for SA.
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              And the turbine of the 80s is the future that was ruined along with the Union.

              Turbine T-80 is good if supply issues in the operation, due to their indecision, they decided to neglect. © IJA preliminary planning for the Imphal operation.
              And so, everything rests on the rear. It was at the Yankees that a tank gas turbine engine could take off - with their heated rears of heavy divisions.
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              And the "five" is the T-80 or what?

              Worse. This is the "parallel four". By German standards, it's as if, after launching the VK 2001 series, the Germans would also decide to mass-produce the VK 2002 as well. smile
              1. -1
                13 July 2022 11: 00
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The T-80 turbine is good if supply issues in the operation are decided to be neglected due to their indecision.

                The voracity of the turbine is exaggerated, and the ability to burn diesel fuel instead of kerosene with a slight loss of power and issues with fuel unification are removed.

                Quote: Alexey RA
                Worse. This is the "parallel four". By German standards, it's as if, after launching the VK 2001 series, the Germans would also decide to mass-produce the VK 2002 as well.
                Worse - this is the continuation of the release of the T-64.
                1. +1
                  13 July 2022 13: 48
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Worse - this is the continuation of the release of the T-64.

                  If the T-80 were a continuation of the T-64 with a new engine, that would be half the trouble.
                  But in fact, things got even worse. The LKZ tank was only initially conceived as a modification of the T-64 with a gas turbine engine. But by the second prototype, the Leningrad machine had mutated into an independent design. That is, LKZ somewhat repeated the path of Tagil, in the same way giving out its own tank, different from others - the third MBT.
                  As a result, to two simultaneously located in the MBT series, the USSR received third. T-64B and T-80 were produced in parallel for almost 10 years.
                  And the "first line" of troops is the second MBT with a power plant that is different from all. Which immediately made the current logistics staff, designed to supply diesel tanks with fuel, irrelevant. Especially given the well-known problem of the "third barrel".
                  1. -2
                    13 July 2022 15: 35
                    Everything in the USSR, especially in recent years, was inappropriate due to the fact that the manufacture of rubber galoshes switched to the manufacture of armored galoshes, and this brought a lot of money, which did not know what to do with, and armored tanks began to be made instead of armored galoshes, although they knew perfectly well that the authorities must change, as in Malinovka. This will already be written to please ... Since such a booze has gone on, cut the last cucumber, but nothing was left for pickling.
                  2. 0
                    13 July 2022 16: 44
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    If the T-80 were a continuation of the T-64 with a new engine, that would be half the trouble.
                    Like this? A tank with an exhausted chassis and a powerful and completely redundant engine? Outright nonsense, not "half the trouble."
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    That is, LKZ somewhat repeated the path of Tagil, in the same way giving out its own tank, different from others - the third MBT.
                    It is that "in something." The Ural brought simplicity, reliability and reasonable price, while the T-80 brought speed, mobility and armor. Both that and it demanded processing of the chassis, full.

                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    T-64B and T-80 were produced in parallel for almost 10 years.
                    This is a political decision.

                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And the "first line" of troops is the second MBT with a power plant that is different from all.
                    The T-64B was massively withdrawn from the GDR, and in 84 a decision was made to completely replace it with the T-80.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Which immediately made the current logistics staff, designed to supply diesel tanks with fuel, irrelevant.
                    And what's the difference what the tankers carry? Not even remembering the full tolerance of the turbine to diesel fuel. Well, the Abrams, too, were not immediately imported by divisions, but by battalions.

                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    Especially given the well-known problem of the "third barrel".
                    What is this, a hint of the voracity of the turbine? I do not argue, a 1000 strong turbine eats more than 800 strong (approximately) diesel. She eats diesel fuel or kerosene, but she practically does not eat oil.
                    In general, two and a half main tanks are normal for the ATS and India with the Arabs, no worse than 4 and a half tanks for NATO.
                    1. +1
                      13 July 2022 17: 24
                      Quote: Vladimir_2U
                      And what difference does it make what fuel tankers carry? Not even remembering the full tolerance of the turbine to diesel fuel.

                      Travel fuel costs per 100 km of run averaged:
                      for T-80 tanks - 642 liters;
                      for T-64A tanks - 404 liters;
                      for T-72 tanks - 357 liters;
                      for T-62 tanks - 308 liters.
                      © Report on joint comparative tests of T-80, T-64A, T-72 and T-62 tanks. 20.08/30.09.1976-XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX. Cit. by Alexei Khlopotov. "The most voracious tank of the Soviet Union."
                      And here is the data from LiveJournal of GurKhan's eternal rival - Baron Tonkolyuk.

                      © magazine "Bulletin of armored vehicles" 1991 No. 2.

                      Experimental consumption - 4,1-4,5 liters per kilometer for the T-80 versus 1,8-2,3 l / km for diesel MBTs. By concrete. On the road, you can safely multiply the numbers by 1,5 - and the gap will increase even more.

                      The problem is not that carry. The problem is, how carry.
                      The rear staff of the TD / MSD is always fully compressed so as not to inflate the size of the columns on the march. And this state is designed for tankers to supply tanks with a flow rate of 400 liters per 100 kilometers. And a tank with a flow rate of 640 liters per 100 km cannot be fully supplied with a regular number of tankers. And you will have to increase it by 2,5-3 times (taking into account the fact that the tankers themselves also consume fuel).
                      But the T-80 also has a well-known problem with the third external tank / barrel. Simply put, this barrel is written in the documents, the estimated cruising range on all tanks is calculated along with it, but in fact there is no barrel. Because it hangs right above the MTO and, at the slightest damage, pours fuel directly onto its roof.
                      1. 0
                        14 July 2022 04: 33
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        "The most voracious tank of the Soviet Union."
                        So I am guided by this text (including) and there are such words:
                        The oil reserve of the T-64A, T-72 and T-62 provided two daily passages without refueling, while the T-80 was recognized as practically unlimited.

                        for T-80 tanks - 22 liters of fuel and 820 liters of oil;
                        for T-64A tanks - 13 liters of fuel and 544 liters of oil;
                        for T-72 tanks - 12 liters of fuel and 337 liters of oil;
                        And the difference in consumption per 100 km and in total can be explained by the fact that 64s drove less than 72 and 80 per 500 km. (or even more)
                        Tests were carried out on the territory of the Belarusian, Carpathian and Kyiv military districts in the amount 2500 – 3000 Feet km.


                        Experimental consumption - 4,1-4,5 liters per kilometer for the T-80 versus 1,8-2,3 l / km for diesel MBTs.
                        Didn't the strange numbers, almost the same for the T-62, T-64 and T-72, alert you? In my opinion, something is far-fetched in this table.

                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        for T-80 tanks - 642 liters;
                        for T-64A tanks - 404 liters;


                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        And this state is designed for tankers to supply tanks with a flow rate of 400 liters per 100 kilometers. And a tank with a flow rate of 640 liters per 100 km cannot be fully supplied with a regular number of tankers. And you will have to increase it by 2,5-3 times (taking into account the fact that the tankers themselves also eat fuel).
                        Don't you see errors and rough in your calculations? 640 is more than 400 by a third with a little, so why do you see an increase in the number of TK by 2,5-3 times? Well, the staff will increase by 2/5, where is your explosive multiple growth? Yes, even taking into account the fundamentally lower oil consumption. You think wrong.

                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        the estimated cruising range on all tanks is calculated along with it, but in fact there is no barrel.
                        It does not affect the average consumption in any way. And below the first digits on the internal gas station.
                        for T-80 tanks - 255–340/310–413 km;
                        for T-64A tanks - 263–366/348–490 km;
                        for T-72 tanks - 273–400/366–535 km
                        ;
                        From the article we both link to:
                        It seemed expedient to develop a single tank with gas turbine and diesel engines, the design of which was to be maximally unified with the best technical solutions of the T-80, T-64B, T-72 tanks.
                      2. 0
                        14 July 2022 10: 09
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        So I am guided by this text (including) and there are such words:
                        The oil reserve of the T-64A, T-72 and T-62 provided two daily passages without refueling, while the T-80 was recognized as practically unlimited.

                        So this is "oil reserve" - ​​the eternal problem of our tank diesel engines. But the oil consumption is almost two orders of magnitude lower than the fuel consumption, so the total consumption (fuel and oil) of the T-72 will not increase much.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        And the difference in consumption per 100 km and in total can be explained by the fact that 64s drove less than 72 and 80 per 500 km. (or even more)

                        It will not work - the article gives the specific consumption for the same normalized distance.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Don't you see errors and rough in your calculations? 640 is more than 400 by a third with a little, so why do you see an increase in the number of TK by 2,5-3 times?

                        Actually, 640 is 400 times greater than 1,6. A plus:
                        If an increase in the ammunition load requires an increase in auxiliary means in an arithmetic progression, then an increase in the amount of fuel required to refuel a unit's combat vehicles requires an increase in the number of auxiliary vehicles in a geometric progression.
                        © Yu. P. Kostenko. TANKS (tactics, technology, economics).
                        According to military tests of VI-1978 ... it was established that in order to make a daily march as part of a tank company over long distances, T-80B tanks require 3 special tankers AC-5,5-375 of increased capacity, and for tanks with diesel engines - only one full-time tanker ATMZ-4,5-375

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        It does not affect the average consumption in any way. And below the first digits on the internal gas station.

                        Yeah, yeah ... 255–340 km on internal tanks for the T-80 versus 273–400 km for the T-72. Despite the fact that the internal tanks of the T-80 are 1090 liters, while the T-72 has only 705 liters.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        From the article we both link to:
                        It seemed expedient to develop a single tank with gas turbine and diesel engines, the design of which was to be maximally unified with the best technical solutions of the T-80, T-64B, T-72 tanks.

                        From the article we both link to: smile
                        Of course, for this it would be good to know also the context in which the tests were carried out and the report was compiled. The commission was required at all costs to justify the adoption of the third type of main tank, which happened due to the fact that the interests of SKB Transmash of the Leningrad production association Kirovsky Zavod were personally lobbied by D.F. Ustinov, and the general designer N.S. Popov in the same 1976 became a member of the Central Audit Commission of the CPSU, and since 1982 he became a member of the Central Committee of the CPSU.
                      3. 0
                        14 July 2022 17: 16
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        the total consumption (fuel and oil) of the T-72 will not increase much.

                        Alexey, I have no complaints about the T-72! lol
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        It will not work - the article gives the specific consumption for the same normalized distance.
                        Nowhere is there a word about the same mileage, but a "small" discrepancy of 2500 and 3000 km. And given the average consumption per 100 km. And now, according to the average consumption per 3000 km, the T-80 would have had 19 liters, and the T-260 had 64 liters. Something is wrong with the numbers in the article.

                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        Actually, 640 is 400 times greater than 1,6.
                        A third more is 1,5 times more. As we can see, 1,6 and 1,5 differ slightly. hi

                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        requires an exponential increase in the number of auxiliary machines
                        Where does such a formula come from? A very dubious formula in light of the fact that I am comparing the T-80 with the T-64, and not with the T-72.
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        it has been established that in order to make a daily march as part of a tank company over long distances, T-80B tanks require 3 special tankers AC-5,5-375 of increased capacity, and for tanks with diesel engines - only one full-time tanker ATMZ-4,5-375
                        Firstly, the daily march of the T-80 is 50-100 km more than that of the T-72 (the phrase refers specifically to the T-72B), which already reduces the effect of exposure, and secondly, the T-64 has this figure by 120-150 km less.
                        for T-80 tanks - 400–450 km;
                        for T-64A tanks - 300–330 km;
                        for T-72 tanks - 350–400 km;

                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        255–340 km on internal tanks for the T-80 versus 273–400 km for the T-72. Despite the fact that the internal tanks of the T-80 are 1090 liters, while the T-72 has only 705 liters.
                        And why are you all about the T-72, I have no complaints about the T-72, where is the T-64? Well, 400 liters is less than half a cube of volume, removed in the MTO. Plus 160 hp above.

                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        The commission was required at all costs to justify the adoption of the third type of main tank
                        Well, these are the conclusions of the authors, strange figures speak of their bias, for example, I think that the goal was to preserve the T-64, was it in vain that tests were carried out with "local" crews in the Kiev Military District and the surrounding area?
                        and the firing of the T-64A was corrected according to the data of the T-64B fire control system, which should not have been there.
                      4. +1
                        14 July 2022 17: 48
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Alexey, I have no complaints about the T-72!

                        Symmetrically! smile
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        A third more is 1,5 times more.

                        Ummm... a third more is 1,33(3) times more.
                      5. 0
                        15 July 2022 04: 48
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        Symmetrically!
                        drinks

                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        Ummm... a third more is 1,33(3) times more.
                        Maybe I'm wrong, because. counted from a larger number.
    3. -2
      14 July 2022 03: 13
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Let me remind you that there are 4 types of tanks in NATO, not counting the Turkish and Italian perversions.

      And then why don’t you consider the tanks that were in the ATS countries? There will be much more than four of them, together with the Soviet ones.

      Having three different MBTs in service at the same time is insanity. However, a typical USSR.
      1. 0
        14 July 2022 04: 38
        Quote from Witsapiens
        And then why don’t you consider the tanks that were in the ATS countries? There will be much more than four of them, together with the Soviet ones.

        You can immediately see a connoisseur with a Eurowash of the brain. What MBTs do you know in Var. contracts, right?
        1. -2
          14 July 2022 09: 54
          And what is it that bombarded you so much? Hemorrhoids and erectile dysfunction tortured?

          Yes, there were only Soviet ones at the police department, I admit. But this does not negate the fact that not a single country, except for the USSR, thought of adopting three MBTs at once, yeah.
          1. +2
            14 July 2022 17: 21
            Quote from Witsapiens
            And what is it that bombarded you so much? Hemorrhoids and erectile dysfunction tortured?

            How do OBT issues in ATS countries and your incompetence in them relate to kidney disease and restlessness? lol Are you healthy?
            Quote from Witsapiens
            But this does not negate the fact that not a single country, except for the USSR, thought of adopting three MBTs at once, yeah.

            Eurokakahi in your attic do not let you understand that the USSR was a huge country, had several tank design bureaus and supplied a good third of the world with tanks.
  3. +1
    12 July 2022 05: 10
    Seriality rules.
    Therefore, 1-3 new avs are not being built. A series of "smiths" in the USSR made sense, now it doesn't.
    1. +2
      12 July 2022 06: 36
      But it makes sense to keep and use Kuzya. This is competency retention.
      Fu, I hate enti imported words, but there is no other way to explain it.
      1. +3
        12 July 2022 15: 35
        But it makes sense to keep and use Kuzya. This is competency retention.
        Fu, I hate enti imported words, but there is no other way to explain it.

        There are no competencies there. There will be a full-fledged aircraft carrier - pilots will also be trained. In the states, women fly between decrees. Keeping this junk for ten takeoffs a year is a crime.
        1. 0
          13 July 2022 15: 37
          There are specialists who can cut anyone into galoshes. In general, nothing is needed, but if necessary, they will buy it from friendly America.
      2. +3
        13 July 2022 22: 26
        Quote: -Paul-
        But it makes sense to keep and use Kuzya. This is competency retention.
        Fu, I hate enti imported words, but there is no other way to explain it.


        Recently there was an article about an American fighter that fell from an aircraft carrier.
        And about the pilot who made more than 800 landings on Avik - that is, more than on Kuzya, all together.

        What kind of competencies?
        Consider no carrier-based aircraft and will not be in the next 20 years.
        For the development of versions of carrier-based aircraft is a parallel development in the current conditions, that is, in terms of costs, it costs the same as the main aircraft.
        And the release of 20-30 units is for chickens to laugh at.
        We will no longer have exports in the next 30-40 years.
        Forget it.
        Neither the Su-33 nor the MiG-29KUB are relevant from the word in any way.
        SuperHornet is an analogue of the Su-35S in fact, and in avionics it completely surpasses it.
        We don't even have a single squadron of the WildWeasel type in the VKS, and even more so there is nothing like the naval Growlers.
        We don’t have a single light AWACS aircraft, and don’t dream about carrier-based AWACS, respectively.
        And an Aircraft Carrier without AWACS is a castrato.
        We do not have an aircraft carrier transporter that could quickly transport engines, crews, etc.
        We do not have a system to support the activities of aircraft carriers in the ocean while on duty.
        There is no huge constellation of satellites of view and RTR, there is no huge constellation of PLO aircraft that surf the sky over the oceans around aircraft carriers, providing cover from submarines, we do not have 6 dozen nuclear submarines, which, in the same way, and in the same way, as the entire army of the FSO provides the president on far and near approaches.
        We do not have AUG supply warships in the required quantity, we do not have high-speed supply transports.
        During the Syrian "Kuzi fiasco" - it turned out that not a single pilot had taken a course in combat use. The titles of Heroes of the Union and Russia were simply given for a certain number of landings on the deck. And small.
        An American Navy pilot makes more in a year than ours needs for a Hero.
        A pilot cannot dream of hundreds of landings a year.
        We have nothing to make the aircraft carrier a full-fledged one.
        What makes an aircraft carrier a "full-fledged combat unit."

        Our Kuzya, it's like a screwdriver ...
        On a monthly hike in the wild taiga.
        There is no electricity, no spare batteries, no bits, no self-tapping screws.
        But on the other hand, there is a screwdriver in the backpack, which occupies 10% of our backpack, and which we carry with us, no matter what, even realizing that we will not get anything that would be useful for this screwdriver.
        1. -1
          14 July 2022 14: 54
          Su-33 is not a bad aircraft and could be produced with the perfection of avionics.
          The Chinese are developing these topics instead of us for their aircraft carriers - the reviews are good.
        2. 0
          16 July 2022 22: 15
          And how is the superhornet superior to the Su-35?
  4. -1
    12 July 2022 05: 12
    Here is what Sladkov wrote about the military-industrial complex yesterday. And this is Sladkov

    https://t.me/Sladkov_plus/5838
    1. +1
      12 July 2022 13: 06
      I don't think it's that simple. The military-industrial complex, of course, is convenient to designate as extreme.
      But, perhaps, there are problems with the customer, how he works with contractors: how and what technical tasks he gives, contracts, pays, accepts, etc.
      Several business representatives who could work with this customer and whom I know do not work with him and do not want to.
      1. 0
        13 July 2022 15: 42
        But in order to buy hammers and nails in a country that used to be decades behind the country, now it has become a supplier of everything Russia needs. Most importantly, gas and oil, the rest can be bought in third world countries. Gas and oil will run out and everything will be abandoned, as was done in South America. There was no water left the city and go to other places. It goes to this here. To the Urals - China, to the Urals on the other hand - whom God will send.
  5. +2
    12 July 2022 05: 36
    It is written quite correctly: this "zoo" is in the army that is at war! And what is happening now in civilian life, when the same tractors or tractors of the same brand often have completely different nomenclature of spare parts. But since the time of "perestroika" we have been told how good it is in the West - such a variety of everything, assortment, choice - we will buy everything. So the thought appears - and it would not be so stupid to have a couple of "carts" for the same carts with a small assortment of components that would be in every villager. Albeit without "diversity" - but common, affordable and domestic!
    1. +3
      12 July 2022 06: 14
      Quote: Dmitry Karabanov
      it would not be so stupid to have a couple of "carts" for the same carts with a small assortment

      From an operational point of view, perhaps not bad. But think about this. Someone has to develop new technology. And not only in a virtual design, but also in real metal. And if prototypes are not built, then we will stop in progress, and over time we can roll back to a lower level. And if a series of weapons is not really made, then it will not be possible to work out the tactics of their use and determine their place in the battle order. Thus, unification is good, but it is also a stop in the progress of quality and in the development of scientific and technical schools.
      1. +1
        12 July 2022 21: 57
        Quote: Hagen
        And not only in a virtual design, but also in real metal. And if prototypes are not built, then we will stop in progress, and over time we can roll back to a lower level

        And everyone forgot what this desire is - to have a cheap wagon
        Quote: Dmitry Karabanov
        So the thought appears - and it would not be so stupid to have a couple of "carts" for the same carts with a small assortment of components that would be in every villager. Albeit without "diversity" - but common, affordable and domestic!

        And it ended - VAZ-2106 white ...... 40 years with virtually no changes ...
    2. +4
      12 July 2022 06: 39
      We traded all this for sausage and jeans. Maybe I'm exaggerating. but it's a fact.
    3. -2
      14 July 2022 03: 15
      Quote: Dmitry Karabanov
      But since the time of "perestroika" we have been told how good it is in the West - such a variety of everything, assortment, choice - we will buy everything.

      So in the West everything is really good and there is a huge variety, unlike the socialist countries. But there they approach everything wisely, so they didn’t think of simultaneously adopting three MBTs at once.
  6. +7
    12 July 2022 06: 07
    ... imagine what difficulties the newest Russian Armata tanks, the Kurganets and Boomerang armored vehicles with the Coalition-SV self-propelled guns would add ..... All this innovative brethren would have to be not only protected from capture with subsequent analysis in the West, but also to supply through a separate line. Even if the cars got to the front in trace amounts.
    Nice excuse for their absence. THOSE. now we can do without it. I can see how easy it is. It is clear that the author does not shoot at home. I would ask the infantry and artillerymen. Just think, some kind of Coalition, with a range of fire, against which all the artillery of Ukraine is powerless. And what kind of war are they saving for then? Where will there be no captivity and analysis? And all this for the sake of facilitating supply and maintenance? Sur something....
    1. -4
      12 July 2022 06: 54
      And what kind of war are they saving for then?

      and what, Russia has no enemies except Ukraine? Has NATO suddenly become a peacekeeping alliance in your country? This is the level of reasoning of sofa experts like "let's all our aviation attack Ukraine and immediately destroy the UkroAir Defense".
      Where will there be no captivity and analysis?

      Well then, remember the story of Belenko and the consequences of the MiG-25 hijacking. The point is not that the secrets will fall into the hands of enemies, but that the contribution of this meager amount of advanced technology to the war in Ukraine will not be comparable to the losses in the event of their destruction / capture. You need to understand that the war in Ukraine is "not a war to victory by any means." Our enemy has been and remains the NATO alliance. And Ukraine is so, a prelude.
      1. -2
        12 July 2022 12: 47
        In this prelude, we have already lost more than the Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq combined. It's only been four months!
        1. -6
          12 July 2022 12: 57
          In this prelude, we have already lost more than the Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq combined. It's only been four months!

          another fan of comparing horseradish with a finger .... since such insane comparisons began, we lost less than the Americans in Vietnam. Will we continue?
          1. 0
            13 July 2022 22: 32
            Quote: Ka-52
            In this prelude, we have already lost more than the Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq combined. It's only been four months!

            another fan of comparing horseradish with a finger .... since such insane comparisons began, we lost less than the Americans in Vietnam. Will we continue?


            So the Vietnam War went on for 20 years ...
            Iranian-Iraqi - 9 years...

            With what is happening now on the battlefield and around it, it is quite possible that if we ourselves do not "give back", then the war will last for several years.
            1. -2
              14 July 2022 05: 09
              so the Vietnam War went on for 20 years ...

              Is it 1965 years from 1973 to 20? Did the Americans take part in the Iran-Iraq war? What are you smoking there? No need to answer, just downvote as always
              1. -1
                14 July 2022 09: 30
                Quote: Ka-52
                so the Vietnam War went on for 20 years ...

                Is it 1965 years from 1973 to 20? Did the Americans take part in the Iran-Iraq war? What are you smoking there? No need to answer, just downvote as always


                I don't know what you're smoking, but the Vietnam War is counted from 55 to 75.
                Not from 65 to 73.
                The "neighbors" participated in the Iran-Iraq war.
                Close neighbors. Relatively good neighbors.
                Which are also "demarcated".
                Analogies with us - of course you do not see any.
                General.
                You are very bad with analogies.
                1. -1
                  14 July 2022 10: 40
                  I don't know what you're smoking, but the Vietnam War is counted from 55 to 75.

                  there is such an old film "Serezha" (1960), and so there the main character, the boy Seryozha, said the phrase "Uncle Petya, are you a fool?". Very suited to the situation. In the Vietnam War, American troops first saw combat in the spring of 1965. The incident in the Gulf of Tonkin, which served as a prologue to the US intervention, occurred in the summer of 1964. Stop raving about 1955 or 1945.
                  The "neighbors" participated in the Iran-Iraq war.

                  we are talking specifically about the loss of American servicemen. What the fuck are the neighbors in the war between Iraq and Iran? What American troops were involved there?
                  You are very bad with analogies.

                  and you are very bad with brains or very good with drugs.
                2. 0
                  14 July 2022 17: 38
                  Not earlier?
                  The Vietnamese were at war with the French, before the Americans.
        2. +2
          12 July 2022 15: 51
          Can you give figures on how many the Americans lost in Afghanistan and Iraq, and how much we lost?
    2. +4
      12 July 2022 11: 22
      Quote: Sibiryak 66
      And what kind of war are they saving for then? Where will there be no captivity and analysis? And all this for the sake of facilitating supply and maintenance? Sur something....

      I agree, the element of surah in the author's reasoning is strong.
      1. 0
        16 July 2022 16: 35
        Quote: DenVB
        I agree, the element of surah in the author's reasoning is strong.

        The author is a banal demagogue trying to cover up the bare fifth point of our power with a fig leaf of his rantings.
  7. +2
    12 July 2022 06: 22
    The difference in calibers in artillery provides a layered fire and multitasking when working on different targets! The T-64 is not in service with the Russian Federation, the armies of the DPR and LPR are engaged in these vehicles, ideally, of course, one tank, one self-propelled guns based on this tank, one infantry fighting vehicle, one car and 7.62, 12.7, 152!
    1. +1
      12 July 2022 12: 48
      The difference in calibers in artillery ensures the multi-layered fire and multitasking when working on different targets

      It's right. But there are nuances. For example, all D-30 122 mm were fused in the DPR, while the Ukrainians in the brigades switched to 152 mm. Thus, they got a fire advantage over the troops of the DPR and LPR, and a gain in logistics, they have one ammunition, we have two.
      Therefore, unification is needed, but of course with the mind. We have been talking about three types of tanks since the times of the USSR, but nothing has changed.
  8. +8
    12 July 2022 06: 27
    The question is rhetorical and once again confirms the severity of the technical heritage of the Soviet army.
    Another "bonba" under the Russian Federation. Wherever you look, well, everything, the heavy legacy of the "Soviet regime", no way to get rid of it. smile
    1. -1
      14 July 2022 03: 17
      Quote: parusnik
      Another "bonba" under the Russian Federation. Wherever you look, well, everything, the heavy legacy of the "Soviet regime", no way to get rid of it.

      Well, yes. The Russian Federation is the legal successor of the USSR with all its shortcomings.
    2. 0
      16 July 2022 16: 38
      Quote: parusnik
      Another "bonba" under the Russian Federation. Wherever you look, well, everything, the heavy legacy of the "Soviet regime", no way to get rid of it.

      It's not the word that gets in the way. If it were not for the heavy legacy of the bloody scoop, today's Russia would simply fill up the army with modern weapons. And so you have to lower everything to the yachts and villas of efficient owners.
  9. +4
    12 July 2022 06: 29
    two main models of tanks - T-34 and IS (KV)

    T-34+KV+IS=3 or 2, according to the author. Can the T-34 (41) and T-34-85 be considered the same tank model? There are more differences between them than similarities. Well, HF and IS are generally very different machines.
    1. +1
      12 July 2022 16: 37
      Quote: Nafanya from the couch
      Can the T-34 (41) and T-34-85 be considered the same tank model?


      Quote: Nafanya from the couch
      Well, HF and IS are generally very different machines.

      HF and IS have only skating rinks in common, and even then with a big stretch. The KV line ended on the KV-85.
    2. 0
      12 July 2022 17: 51
      + T-60, T-70, T-80, Stuarts, Grants, Shermans, Matildas, Churchellis, Valentines, Su-76s in two generations, a lot of more assault guns and tank destroyers, several types of small arms: self-loading, automatic rifles, magazine mosquitoes, 3-4 types of PP and all this under 4-5 types of cartridges. We are still not touching the automotive, aircraft and artillery nomenclature.
  10. +10
    12 July 2022 08: 18
    The author turned everything upside down.

    You need to understand that we should talk separately about the chassis and weapons.
    Those. at some stage of repair or modernization, they need to be separated and then docked.

    Now about the diversity, which must be reconciled with the size of Russia:
    First, the problem of maintenance and repair arises only when a certain type of equipment in the troops is less than the amount that can be loaded into one repair site at a repair enterprise. Then it is impossible to maintain a brigade experienced technicians for the repair of this equipment. Those. you need to have a couple of hundred copies. The issue of repair components is solved by periodic production for a warehouse, for several years (rather large series).
    Second, modern military equipment, will acquire more features of specialization of use depending on the type of battle and the environment (streets, raid, defense, ... steppe, mountains, desert, river, swamp, permafrost). Having different weight and size models, it is necessary to have a unified range of components (conceived in the Armat generation, where there will be different chassis bodies with the same parts).
    Thirdly, it is impossible to have only the latest generation of equipment in service - it's just as stupid as using only virtuoso soloists to sing along. We have to have equipment of the current, promising and outgoing generations, which can be used for various levels of task complexity and to increase the saturation of troops. The only requirement is that this saturation contribute to the reduction of material and human losses.

    If you stupidly get rid of old equipment, then a situation may arise that you have to sculpt all sorts of freaks and joyfully use trophies ...
    1. Eug
      +1
      12 July 2022 09: 18
      That's right - the technique should consist of modules and platforms to the maximum, where possible. In turn, these modules and platforms should be made up of standard unified parts to the maximum. At one time in the USSR, in the field of computer technology and radio electronics in general, there was the concept of TEZ - a typical replacement element .. it is clear that in mechanics this is hardly achievable, but one must strive ...
    2. -3
      12 July 2022 15: 39
      The author turned everything upside down.

      You need to understand that we should talk separately about the chassis and weapons.

      It's not just about the chassis. Half of the types of BT can be reduced without compromising business. It's the same in the air. Su-30SM is the main aircraft there, like. He alone had to be put in a series before switching to a single-engine "stealth".
      It's high time to switch to the same caliber for a rifle and a machine gun in small arms.
  11. Eug
    +3
    12 July 2022 09: 11
    I wonder - if the ZIL-135 chassis is so problematic - how did the Moscow Region accept this development? And one thesis of Murakhovsky definitely raises questions - "the resource is more important than the limiting parameters" ... during the years of the Great Patriotic War, it was successfully refuted by our authors. The P-39 Airacobra flew much better with us than in the USA, primarily because ours operated their engines at high speeds, the resource (unattainable in combat conditions) fell sharply, but the performance characteristics improved markedly, thereby increasing the likelihood of victory in the air and survivability of pilots ... And wartime technologies in the USSR - the invariability of characteristics (compared to peacetime) was achieved at the cost of reducing the resource ...
    1. +2
      12 July 2022 10: 21
      I wonder - if the ZIL-135 chassis is so problematic - how did the Moscow Region accept this development?

      The author himself does not understand what he writes. This ZIL-135 vehicle has the same engines that were in the army on the main ZIL trucks, this is unification. The middle unsprung pair of axles increased firing stability. Two engines is double the reliability of getting out of trouble.
      1. 0
        15 July 2022 18: 51
        But then why didn’t anyone else do this to increase the stability of shooting, so there’s no need for fairy tales, just if you also make the suspension of medium bridges, then the complexity of the transmission will become generally prohibitive
  12. +1
    12 July 2022 10: 15
    Dear author! Self-propelled guns "ZiS-30" and the family of self-propelled guns Su-76 were not produced at all on the basis of the tanks you indicated. Considering the help of the allies, starting with the Matildas and Valentines with 40-mm guns, delivered to the USSR in 1941 only with armor-piercing shells, it was fun for the rear of the Red Army to deal with logistics throughout the Great Patriotic War. Moreover, at our request, already in 1941, 10 Matildas with a 76-mm howitzer arrived ... And the formed units on the Allied vehicles were sent to different fronts, both in tanks and in Hurricanes, somehow not up to logistics It was in the winter of 1941-42....
    1. +1
      12 July 2022 16: 42
      Quote: Tests
      Considering the help of the allies, starting with the Matildas and Valentines with 40-mm guns, delivered to the USSR in 1941 only with armor-piercing shells, it was fun for the rear of the Red Army to deal with logistics throughout the Great Patriotic War.

      Well, with the transition of British tanks to the 6-pounder, OS appeared - Canadian-made. But on the other hand, duplication of calibers appeared - domestic and Lend-Lease 57 mm.
      It’s scary to talk about the zoo 75-76 mm shots - there are only us gloomy geniuses surpassed.
      In the shooter, too, the joy was unspeakable - three 12,7 mm cartridges. smile
      1. 0
        12 July 2022 19: 17
        And what is the third one?
        1. 0
          13 July 2022 10: 20
          Quote: igor_sabadah
          And what is the third one?

          ShVAK-12,7 - the same 12,7x108, but with a rim. smile
          1. 0
            15 July 2022 18: 31
            Ah, for sure ... But he was basically a cannon
    2. 0
      12 July 2022 19: 15
      And also German 7.92 cartridges for BESA machine guns for English tanks
  13. +3
    12 July 2022 10: 31
    In the next 10-15 years, we will not leave the herbs in the armed forces.
    The Russian Federation in the 90s-2000s missed the change of generations / major modernization of technology. And now we have to simply repair a lot of equipment so that the troops can learn from something. Now losses have also been added (not only from enemy fire, equipment in war "burns out" very quickly) from NWO.
    There is simply not enough money to produce new technology.
    Plus, the Russian Federation has nothing to sharply replace the stocks of ammunition for artillery of the first or second post-war generation, these stocks of the USSR have been creating for decades. And throw them out too, well, it’s very impossible.
  14. 0
    12 July 2022 10: 35
    So I'm wondering: why exactly "REAL unification"? For "UNREAL unification" someone should be tried by a military tribunal.
  15. +1
    12 July 2022 11: 37
    You can talk about most of the theses for a long time, but in this case we are interested in the problem of a wide range of weapons in Ukraine and what to do about it.

    Murakhovsky's theses are exactly what a reason to speculate. Food for thought. By no means a guide to action. For counter-theses can be formulated no less.

    The author sees two main logistical problems: the supply and maintenance of a diverse range of equipment. Both problems are solvable. Examples before my eyes.

    Supply? Any retail chain maintains an assortment of tens of thousands of positions and successfully supplies hundreds of its stores across the country with them. Moreover, as a rule, from the wheels, that is, without the accumulation of large stocks in stores. That's who you need to learn from the rear service and the General Staff as a whole. Take logistics managers from some Magnet. Let them introduce at least bar coding, RFID tags and modern warehouse accounting systems into military logistics. Pay them for it, the costs will pay off handsomely.

    Service? Look at a car service. Not a specific one, but the market as a whole. The spontaneously developed system successfully serves such a zoo of equipment that the military never dreamed of. Let them take an example.
  16. +2
    12 July 2022 11: 59
    It's good that at least the gearboxes of both are "KAMAZ".


    False, URALs are used with the YaMZ-2361 checkpoint
  17. -4
    12 July 2022 12: 41
    The question is why the Zilovsky dinosaur has not yet been replaced by the products of the Belarusian MZKT and the domestic BAZ?

    Because they decided that it is better to do badly, but in Bryansk, than to do well, but in Belarus. Remember Onishchenko - you can’t drink Belarusian milk, and their meat is real?
  18. 0
    12 July 2022 12: 44
    "Msta-S" is already on the dearmored T-80 platform with MTO from the T-72.
    What kind of platform is this?
  19. -1
    12 July 2022 12: 48
    But they did not try to at least somehow distribute the same type of equipment among the military districts and the nearest manufacturing plants in order to simplify logistics, repairs, and the supply of spare parts.
    Why in every brigade, division and army to arrange a "hodgepodge"?
    For example, the Western Military District and the Southern Military District arm the T-72, T-90 (from Uralvagonzavod), and the Central Military District and the Eastern Military District with T-80 tanks (Tomsk).

    The same with the army aviation:
    Western Military District and Southern Military District on the Mi-28 and Mi-35 / Mi-24 (Rostov Plant), and arm the Ka-52 from the Arsenievsky VZ.
    These are frank pests who have collected 5-6 types of fundamentally different helicopters in army aviation brigades, what warehouses of spare parts, consumables, weapons should each brigade have in order to provide for everyone?
    And how many simulators and "various" specialists are needed to service all this?
    1. +4
      12 July 2022 15: 46
      But wasn’t it here at VO that an article about how wonderfully the Ka-52 and Mi-28 work together and complement each other was enthusiastically discussed relatively recently? And it turns out they are so great precisely because they are different. Sharing is definitely a pain point for procurement, but a clear performance boost. What will the author choose?
      1. -4
        12 July 2022 19: 35
        how wonderfully they work together and complement each other Ka-52 and Mi-28?

        Send at least one video from Ukraine where the Mi-28 and Ka-52 work together, I personally have not seen ...
        At temporary airfields I saw Ka-52 + Mi-8 and separately Mi-28 + Mi-8
    2. 0
      12 July 2022 19: 14
      Otherwise, it’s bad to fight, they complement each other, we don’t have cars on the same base for different tasks
  20. 0
    12 July 2022 12: 50
    The theme of unification is certainly necessary and important. That's just Murakhovsky here can not be an expert from the word at all. There are people who answer this: the armed forces, customers, all sorts of scientific and technical complexes, and so on. They work - according to the interim results of the Syrian campaign alone, more than 400 models were decommissioned (I don’t remember the exact number, but these are the words of the Minister of Defense). Comparing the tasks of army aviation and the Su-34 is prohibitive. Here is an example of how a relevant topic is brought to insanity in a publication.
  21. +2
    12 July 2022 13: 17
    The ideas in the article are sound. It would be nice if someone systematically dealt with this issue - unification, both in relation to the expediency of preserving existing equipment and weapons, and in relation to new developments. But in some things, the preservation of competing design schools seems to me more important than complete unification
  22. +1
    12 July 2022 13: 59
    RZSO "Hurricane" is perhaps the most unique vehicle of the ground forces.
    RZSO "Hurricane" based on ZIL-135LM - technically the most controversial vehicle of the special operation "Z"

    All the same, the ZIL-135 is a real unique. herself MLRS, such a system is normal, and if you put it on a more modern chassis of the corresponding class, then there will be nothing unique. good
    1. +1
      12 July 2022 19: 12
      Yeah, and there are no suspensions on the middle axles at all, they are attached directly to the frame.
      1. 0
        12 July 2022 23: 47
        Quote: igor_sabadah
        Yeah, and there are no suspensions on the middle axles at all, they are attached directly to the frame.

        I read about the history of the creation and design of the ZIL-135 car, which is why I say that this is a real unique one. good laughing
        1. 0
          15 July 2022 18: 52
          Nafig nafig ride on such a unique one, especially when the engine on which the power steering pump is on dies.
          1. 0
            16 July 2022 06: 37
            Quote: igor_sabadah
            Nafig nafig ride on such a unique one, especially when the engine on which the power steering pump is on dies.

            Thank God I did not go to such happiness. laughing drinks
    2. 0
      16 July 2022 22: 21
      And what's the point of having a "Hurricane" with a range of 30 km., If now the "hail" hits 40 km.? "Hurricane" used to occupy a middle place between "hail" and "tornado", now the advantage is only the power of warhead missiles.
  23. +1
    12 July 2022 14: 02
    Very strange, by the way, innovations have been pushed into the background, it is clear that when hostilities are going on, innovations are not up to date, especially when the method of conducting military operations changes depending on the theater of military operations, and seriality and uniqueness are needed and innovations are used for unification.
  24. +1
    12 July 2022 14: 21
    Really, it dawned on me. There was a Kamaz 740 in the Urals, what went wrong? In general, everything is explainable, each manufacturer strives to sell his own, and as a result, such a mess.
    1. -3
      12 July 2022 19: 45
      each manufacturer strives to sell his own, and as a result, such a mess.

      First of all, our Ministry of Defense is to blame for this "mess", from which the task is to buy not what is better and more important, but what is cheaper ...
      If the children of the Kremlin elite were called up to the active army, the heavy and well-armored T-15 and Armata with T-90M would long ago have been in the army .....
      In the meantime, the worker-peasant boys are fighting there, they will also buy slightly modernized T-72s and cardboard BMP-1/2s for the fiftieth anniversary ....
    2. +2
      12 July 2022 20: 55
      Well, away from him, this 740 howl, YaMZ will definitely be better
      1. 0
        13 July 2022 14: 01
        Especially 238, yes with a turbine
  25. +1
    12 July 2022 14: 33
    It is all the more interesting that the developed "Armata" platform is unified between its different models. And in theory, by carrying out a complete replacement of the armored fleet with a new platform, we will create a force that is cheaper and easier to maintain.
    But there is a big BUT. At the same time, the entire T-72 / T-80 / T-90 and T-62 zoo (not in service, but still in stock, despite the fact that there is nowhere to use such tanks except for poor allies) cannot be replaced because we DO NOT ENOUGH production capacities to do it massively and quickly. At the current pace, if they start re-equipping all armored vehicles with armature, it will take decades - decades of an even greater nightmare for logistics. Not to mention the fact that such a radical change in technology will require incredible cash injections (which would not be so large if we developed the industry, because part of the money will go not to tanks, but to modernize factories so that they can mass-produce equipment).
    Of course, I would like a complete transition to the same fittings. But now, we should at least switch to a single T-90. And let the T-72 and T-80 go to the same place as the T-64, for storage.
    1. +2
      13 July 2022 00: 32
      If the MO had paid for the release of equipment, it would have received it. With the industry, especially the military, everything is fine with us. How much it finances, how much it works, the army wants 20 combat aircraft per year, will receive 20, if it wants 100, it will receive 100. We just need to decide whether we need 100 aircraft per year, or 1000 tanks per year from only one UVZ.
      1. 0
        13 July 2022 10: 19
        I do not agree. The MO has money, but they prefer to spend it on upgrading old equipment. Yes, and at the expense of the factories I doubt it. Considering the fact that we have constant delays and delivery times, although we do not order large quantities of armored vehicles. Yes, and there was a lot of news that many plants working either in the periphery of the defense industry, or directly defense plants themselves, either reduce staff, or again find themselves on the verge of bankruptcy. There are only a few firms and factories in which there are no such problems in the whole country, and at the same time they cannot create new equipment either - since they are busy for several years ahead with another pulling out of old equipment under the modernization program, instead of switching to new. But there is also the area of ​​​​electronics, with which we both had problems, so they have not gone away. even build conveyors for 100 tanks a year - we have our own production of microelectronics in good shape. And those new 100 tanks need to be equipped with on-board computers, digital observation devices and reconnaissance / target designation systems, etc. But we not only produce tanks, the Strategic Missile Forces, the Navy and the Aerospace Forces have not gone away, they also desperately need computers.
        So it turns out that we are spending money not on one “armature”, but on the modernization of three T-72/80/90s. And maintaining three tanks somehow does not solve the supply problem.
        It's time to move on to the next generation. The Americans would also like to change their abrams (it is from the same era as half of our tanks), it only holds for two reasons. The first is that due to its larger size, its modernization potential was enough for a longer time. And the second is that the Abrams have not fought with anyone serious since the 90s, they were even redundant. And now, when America and Europe saw that Russia is engaged in the restoration of the Armed Forces, and that China began to convert its economic growth into military power, they realized that the tank already needs to be replaced and time is short. And we already HAVE a new generation tank, but it is still not produced in commercial quantities. Because there are no enterprises capable of providing large-scale production.
        1. +1
          13 July 2022 12: 35
          If modernization is cheaper, then the Defense Ministry will receive more equipment. Tanks and fighters are being made without much delay. 3 T-72s are more useful than one T-14. It’s like we’re not comparing 3 BT-7s with 1 T-34, when even if you crack, you can’t reach a level comparable to the T-34, and not even the T-34-85 with the T-54.

          And those new 100 tanks need to be equipped with on-board computers


          There, no one uses consumer electronics with fine technical processes, but highly specialized things on some 180 nm technical process (and this makes it possible to make a processor with a frequency of 200-300 MHz, which is for a ballistic computer with a head), is not such a big problem.
  26. -2
    12 July 2022 14: 48
    That's interesting, well what the genius political scientist came up with the idea of ​​making the letters of the enemy alphabet the logo of good and correct military actions? Yes, even the very ones that were previously used by the Nazi invaders, which many of our fellow citizens remember from Soviet films about the war and historical chronicles.
    During the Second World War, it would never have occurred to anyone to write on the tank "Za Stalina" or something like that ..
  27. -1
    12 July 2022 14: 55
    I read, read and understood why the article was only at the end, in the penultimate paragraph - what difficulties would be added by the latest Russian Armata tanks, Kurganets and Boomerang armored vehicles with Koalitsiya-SV self-propelled guns - new better protected vehicles are not needed, they are they cost money and God needs to be serviced.
  28. -2
    12 July 2022 15: 17
    Unification is, of course, an important matter, but the preservation and protection of soldiers' lives is most important. And in the SVO "the latest Russian Armata tanks, Kurganets and Boomerang armored vehicles with Koalitsiya-SV self-propelled guns" would be very successful in this. But unfortunately they are not in the army, they are only shown at parades. And on the battlefield, unified, but long ago physically and morally obsolete infantry fighting vehicles 1; 2, motorized league, shells, armored personnel carriers -80; 82, T-72; 62, hailstones, hurricanes, rooks, MI-24, etc.
    1. -1
      13 July 2022 10: 23
      On the contrary, on the battlefield there is a zoo of 3.5 types of tanks and a huge number of outdated chassis and platforms, for which spare parts can only be found in old warehouses. And the transition to the "Armata" platforms (with all related platforms) just solves the problem of unification. But no one spends money on the production of large batches of all models of equipment on the "Armata" platform.
      So now there is just no unification. And armata gives both protection and unification (with the complete replacement of all old models of equipment with it).
  29. 0
    12 July 2022 15: 44
    Analysis of "flights" - "EXCELLENT"!
  30. 0
    12 July 2022 15: 46
    And how before that the Army fought, was supplied, repaired. Everything works and fights. No reform is needed. Well, let's unify "according to Serdyukov". it was on paper, but they forgot about the ravines. The article is not about anything today.
  31. +1
    12 July 2022 16: 07
    Well, from the reason for the failures, the damned scoop, left a bunch of little unified weapons.
  32. +1
    12 July 2022 16: 10
    The author suggests using a microscope to hammer in nails and examine a ciliate-shoe. Unification - the "+" stump is clear, but any extremes are bad, zBs: Airborne Forces instead of "Octopus" - let's T-90, right? Landing instead of Mi-24 and Mi-8 on the Ka-52, let them cling to the chassis))) With the "Armata" platform, we are moving towards unification in the long term. And yes, in the USSR during the Second World War there were many "tanks", the author is disingenuous. The ambassadors of the article are understandable, but this "specialization" still rules.
  33. +2
    12 July 2022 16: 22
    During the war years, the T-44 with a transverse engine was ready for production, but due to low unification with existing tank models, it never became a replacement for the T-34-85. It was necessary to maintain significant production rates, and with the production of the T-44 on the conveyor, serious problems would have happened with this. Therefore, they left the old car, which, most likely, brought Victory closer.

    In order not to reduce the production of T-34, for the T-44 during the war they found their own plant - Kharkov. But since the production went in parallel with the elimination of shortcomings and the restoration of the plant, the tank did not have time to go to war.
    1. 0
      12 July 2022 18: 34
      Of course, the author is right, unification and standardization, plus a unified approach are primary, and innovation is secondary
  34. -2
    12 July 2022 18: 34
    Quote: Vladimir Michailovich
    Well, from the reason for the failures, the damned scoop, left a bunch of little unified weapons.

    yes, as usual with the current ones, the USSR is to blame for everything, they left few weapons and everything is not of the same system. though the author is silent where, for example, thousands of pieces of paper stored in the T-72 have gone (although given that our and dill generals studied at the same universities, it can be assumed that our tanks, like the dill ones, are only available and available in the reports ). But in fact, the already quite frank T-62 dinosaurs are being driven to the Donbass.
    1. +1
      13 July 2022 00: 28
      Keep 500 pigs, grunted well about the allegedly disappeared T-72s.
  35. +3
    12 July 2022 18: 43
    All this whining is already tired. All weapons have their time, but it so happened that the war began and all the supplies came in handy. So far, "reserves" (products of the USSR with a quality mark) are going into battle, and they are being replaced by filling with new systems. Everything is as always, and there is no need to shag your grandmother ...
  36. +1
    12 July 2022 19: 11
    Hyacinth and Acacia ammo are incompatible
  37. -1
    12 July 2022 20: 51
    It's bad that there is no unification. Procurement, repairs, even use are becoming increasingly difficult. And this is not the legacy of the USSR. In the last 10 years, unification has by no means increased, to put it mildly.
  38. 0
    12 July 2022 21: 11
    The article is curious, but the author did not cover the entire transport "zoo". MLRS "Smerch" and "Grad", MT - LB, truck tractors, pontoon parks on the KrAZ chassis.
  39. 0
    12 July 2022 21: 58
    The article seems to be both right and wrong at the same time. Yes, such a variety and multi-caliber is terrifying in places.
    On the other hand, some things should be taken for granted. The reality is that we have inherited such a diverse legacy. And it makes no sense to saw it for scrap if it can be reasonably used for its intended purpose, if possible.
    Those. if it is possible to shoot ammunition from systems that are no longer being produced, then this should be done, and then, after the ammunition and weapon resource are exhausted, maybe they can be written off for scrap. So far, at this time, the industry is making actual weapons.
    Yes, it's hard for the suppliers, but what to do, that's their job.
  40. E B
    +1
    12 July 2022 22: 31
    I agree with the author, only partly, a smut is basically possible with a Hurricane on a Zilovsky chassis, but it’s not a fact that there are few spare parts;
  41. +1
    12 July 2022 23: 18
    On the one hand, everything is on point. Unification is a must. The military economy is largely based on it. Such a huge range of various equipment, spare parts for it, ammunition of various calibers and fuels and lubricants significantly worsens logistics and makes supply difficult. Plus, it hits the budget, since large-scale production is always cheaper in terms of a unit of production. On the other hand, we must understand that we already have this technique. And we will fight with what we have. And it is better to spend a resource on it. And now, when planning the state defense order and the future appearance of the army, unification should be put at the forefront, even to the detriment of efficiency.
    Equipment that turns out to be superfluous for the new look of the aircraft must be spent and worn out right now. Do we need hurricanes if a bunch of tornado-hail covers all needs? It is clear that it is unlikely. This means that it is necessary to spend more actively precisely the stocks of hurricanes and wear out the resource of just them, so that later, with a clear conscience, write off, sell, put to allies or for long-term storage.
    Do we have T64s that are unnecessary in the future in the republics? Let's use it to the maximum. After the end of the war, they will go to storage.
    And so on. It is necessary to clearly define what exactly will be in service in the future and what should be preserved and what should be worn out. It is clear that there are exceptions. The use of su 35 against ukrovvs minimizes losses, and if you use the same instant 29, then this will not work. But in general, the military economy is a priority. Unification will stupidly allow us to build and maintain more military equipment than in the case of owning a zoo. Crew training is facilitated, logistics is simplified and cheaper. In general, there are many pluses, but now we will have to fight with what we already have.
  42. +1
    13 July 2022 00: 27
    During the war years, the T-44 with a transverse engine was ready for production, but due to low unification with existing tank models, it never became a replacement.


    He did not become a replacement because he was introduced at the plant, which was actually being rebuilt, and production plans were frustrated. No one was going to reduce the rate of production of equipment in wartime. Although this would hardly have prevented him from fighting in the 45th if the production at a dedicated plant had been adjusted.

    Just imagine what a wide range of artillery calibers are used by the allied forces and what difficulties arise with logistics.


    122 and 152 mm, plus 125 mm for tanks. 203mm doesn't count as it's a very specific weapon. We don’t have 120 mm shells, only mines, in fact we have 1-2 calibers in each class. And it is obvious that 125 mm will not replace 30 mm.

    expensive Su-34s simply cannot operate at full strength due to the enemy’s live air defense.


    Another storyteller about some kind of air defense. It doesn’t even occur to me that the main victim of air defense is just a helicopter, which is always vulnerable to MANPADS and MZA, i.e. the weapons that can be armed even with ukrov and barmaley in slippers, and which can cause problems even in the absence of system air defense.

    I wonder how the author is going to achieve this unification, just burn all the junk? No, with this approach, what questions will remain only BMP-3, T-90, BTR-82A, etc. I'm only afraid that no "holy jewels" will be enough for this. The same MLRS "hurricane", according to the wiki, for 2019 there were 900 pieces, of which 700 are in storage. Obviously, if you have ammunition, you can fight with this stock for 10 years, at least.

    Undoubtedly, there are models for which the Z-war will be the last chord, there really isn’t much left, for example, I don’t know if 73 mm shells are being produced now, and the BMP-1 / BMD-1 with such a gun may disappear altogether . Apparently, the Su-25 is an absolutely irreplaceable resource, despite the fact that it seems to have been considered as an insufficiently effective machine based on the experience of the Syrian operation. This means that the Design Bureau may receive the task of developing a replacement for it. Something is recognized as inappropriate to modernize.

    But no one will immediately after the war send for remelting models, of which there are still hundreds of units in warehouses and stamp several thousand T-90s. Moreover, experience shows that each piece of equipment in the units must have several pieces of equipment in stock, because when we need it, we will, at best, have several months from the beginning of the conflict to its transition to the hot phase. And it is simply impossible to increase the production of weapons several times during this time.
  43. +1
    13 July 2022 10: 28
    The Soviet Union has been gone for 30 years, and we all like to remember "what do you want, we got this kind of union." So why haven't you changed anything in 30 years!? The union itself, for a moment, in a shorter period of time from an agrarian country has become an industrial giant. And his army from the end of the 50s to the end of the 80s (the same period of 30 years) had almost no equipment from the period of the 50s.
    1. 0
      13 July 2022 12: 47
      And against whom to make new weapons? You are some strange people, really. In the 90s, the army practically did not receive new weapons, except that the T-90 batch was manufactured by inertia. What, NATO somehow seriously re-armed during this time? On the contrary, it degraded to armies of 200-300 tanks.

      almost did not have any equipment of the 50s period.


      Che, right? Why, then, in December 1993, the official write-off of hopelessly outdated samples, including the IS-2, finally began? The T-55 was produced by EMNIP until 1979, and in the 1980s they made a bunch of all sorts of upgrades to the T-55 and T-62. The MiG-21 was discontinued in 1986, however, it was already exported, but the Afghan war was caught by a bunch of early model aircraft, which had already been removed from the main directions, but they were in no hurry to write off something.
  44. 0
    13 July 2022 10: 31
    Quote: realist
    Really, it dawned on me. There was a Kamaz 740 in the Urals, what went wrong? In general, everything is explainable, each manufacturer strives to sell his own, and as a result, such a mess.

    In the 90s, there was a strong accidental (?) fire at the plant of KAMAZ engines, the production of which was stopped for quite a long time. And then there was a shortage of everything at once: KAMAZ engines were actually used for all KAMAZ vehicles, for wheeled armored personnel carriers, maybe for some buses, and - for the Urals.
    Who cares, but the Urals even then immediately switched to YaAZ engines - from the outside you can distinguish by the air filter on the right front wing, and then, in the process of combat operation, it turned out that these engines for the brutal Urals were better than that, so apparently it remained.
    And so - the theme of unification is certainly correct, but with a certain perseverance and perseverance, it will take 20 years, if not more, to solve it. And then, as a competition at the level of design bureaus, it is necessary to finance pilot production so as not to throw out a newborn baby with water.
  45. +1
    13 July 2022 12: 36
    Rave. I do not like to solve difficulties with technology, forward to the assault.
  46. -1
    13 July 2022 18: 36
    Unification is yes ... a sore point of any rear service. I don’t know what they think at the top, although these have long been common truths: unification means greater mass production and speed of production, this is significant savings, this is easy logistics. But we can see they love the trinity))) 3 helicopters, 3 tanks, etc. As a result, almost all piece production, and in the event of a severe conflict, the fastest depletion of modern technology and the transition to samples of the WWII period.
  47. -1
    13 July 2022 19: 47
    The author is 100% right. Imagine a headache for repair shops in the field, if the range of serviced equipment includes several dozen types of equipment that are largely incompatible with each other. Based on the results of the SVO, it is urgent to revise the range of types and types of field self-propelled artillery (self-propelled guns, MLRS, etc.), tanks. Imagine the problems of the logistics troops when such a number of different equipment is involved.
  48. 0
    13 July 2022 20: 11
    In principle, unification is quite possible, but only in the future, when military equipment in the form of self-propelled guns, SEMs, etc., etc., will be created on the platforms of Armata, Kurganets, Boomerang, when we come to a single cargo platform with a mandatory armored cabin.
    The question raised in the article is purely rhetorical! maybe we have what we have, the legacy of the USSR for the most part, but the other one was not fully created.
    Maybe for this reason, Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov, who is in charge of space and the defense industry, will resign in the near future.

    After all, the declared 70% of new technology, apparently, is still not there. As well as in the serial (large for sure) neither the Armata MBT, nor the Kurganets infantry fighting vehicle, nor the Boomerang armored personnel carrier, Vienna SAO, SU-57, etc. although some samples
    they have been riding in parades since the age of 15, with the planned mass production from 17-19, and some samples such as 2S35 "Coalition-SV" were produced in an amount of about 50 pieces, and 9K515 "Tornado-S" 20 units, SU-57 10 ... Another reason why it is now in service and fighting in Ukraine, for the most part, "motley" equipment from the times and production of the USSR, is that at one time it was decided not to produce or release a small series of equipment for the next generations designed in the late 80s, 90s, such as the BTR-90, BMP-3, Object 640 Cherny Orel, other samples that were pumped at exhibitions at one time, with plans that did not come true, to arm the army with immediately next generation equipment, the production of which was supposed to begin at 17 -19 years old. But if all the same, in the 00s they would start producing all the equipment that was supposed to replace the samples of the 70s, then most likely we would be closer to some kind of unification, and combat vehicles with characteristics higher than those that fought back in Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Georgia!
  49. 0
    13 July 2022 22: 09
    Another lesson: having your own sovereign state bank is the most important thing
  50. 0
    13 July 2022 22: 34
    “1) Unification is more important than innovation.
    2) Single platforms (bases / chassis) are more important than the completeness of the nomenclature.
    3) Seriality is more important than uniqueness.
    4) Presence in the ranks is more important than prospects.
    5) New ammunition is more important than new calibers.
    6) The resource is more important than the limiting parameters.
    7) Not breaking is more important than fixing.
    8) Ergonomics is more important than tight packaging.
    9) Crew qualification is more important than performance characteristics.
    10) Organization is more important than qualifications.
    11) Maintaining skills is more important than records.
    12) The quality of command and control is more important than the quality of armored vehicles.
    13) Interaction in battle is more important than anything else.
    14) The preservation of the crew / landing force is more important than the preservation of equipment.
    15) Courage is more important than dementia, but professionalism is more important than courage.

    The words of Viktor Ivanovich Murakhovsky will make sense only if it is written like this:

    1) An effective balance of unification and innovation

    2) An effective balance of single platforms (bases / chassis) and completeness of the nomenclature, only this can cover the completeness of combat missions effectively performed.

    3) Serialization is more important than uniqueness, see clause 3 - without uniqueness there can be no future serialization, you don’t have unique developments, which means you will not be able to produce high-quality serial products in the future.

    4) The presence in the ranks is more important than prospects only on the condition that promising developments will definitely become serial products in the foreseeable future ... otherwise it will help now, and tomorrow there will be a white northern fur-bearing animal.

    5) New ammunition is more important than new calibers - see item 3

    6) The resource is more important than the limiting parameters - and this is generally a moot point. At one time, many studies were published that, for example, a tank on the battlefield will live no more than 15 minutes ... so the higher the maximum characteristics, the more the tank will destroy enemies and, accordingly, will live longer, respectively, many crews have a chance to survive!

    7) Not breaking is more important than fixing - it contradicts the position: "Unification is more important than innovation" and "Resource is more important than limiting parameters" ... you can add more. In general, an effective balance of reliability and maintainability.

    8) Effective balance of ergonomics and tight layout.

    9) The qualification of the crew is more important than the performance characteristics - only if the enemy in front of you is really weaker, otherwise an effective balance of the qualifications of the crew and the performance characteristics of weapons.

    10) Organization is more important than qualification - - only if the opponent is really weaker in front of you, otherwise an effective balance of organization and qualification.

    11) Maintaining skills is more important than records - unless we perceive that we do not need records, since without records it is not possible to improve skills. Something fits in with item 3.

    12) The quality of command and control is more important than the quality of armored vehicles - only if the enemy in front of you is really weaker, otherwise an effective balance of the quality of command and control and the quality of armored vehicles.

    13) Interaction in battle is more important than anything else - only if the enemy in front of you is really weaker, otherwise an effective balance of interaction in battle and everything else.

    14) The preservation of the crew / landing is more important than the preservation of equipment, it contradicts "Resource is more important than the limiting parameters" well, see clause 5.

    15) Courage is more important than dementia (well, that's a no brainer) ... but an effective balance of professionalism and courage.

    In Russia (and not only) the saying has long been in use: everything is fine, but in moderation. And you can’t unequivocally say this is better than the other, it’s right to say it’s good if there is another complementary one !!!

    Of course, for each item a lot can be added or subtracted ... but see. PS

    shl
    At the expense of measure - and snake venom can also be treated, if in moderation ...
    1. 0
      13 July 2022 22: 52
      Yes, at the expense of measure - every time there is a good measure ... when you need more snake venom, maybe you don’t need to treat it already ...
  51. -2
    13 July 2022 23: 28
    Is it all the Union's fault? Yes, if not for the legacy of the Union, we would now be riding fictional unified Armatas with a mythical infantry cover of 60 thousand Syrians))
    Are you trolling or what? Not expected.
  52. -1
    14 July 2022 20: 39
    I sometimes think that in our Ministry of Defense a special person sits and de-unifies the equipment.....even in one Su34-30-35 design bureau.....
  53. The comment was deleted.
  54. +1
    15 July 2022 07: 41
    The heavy legacy of the USSR

    Well, soon the legacy will end and it will heal very easily
    PS yes mod? winked
  55. -1
    16 July 2022 08: 07
    what kind of "unification"? Simply different generations of equipment are listed - such as the T-62 and T-90, "Acacia" and Msta. Whose fault is it that the latest technology is not enough and we have to use previous generations. The author neglected to talk about rifle calibers - he doesn’t like as many as 5 calibers! firstly, there was no less in WWII (if you take the cartridge as a whole, and not just the bullet diameter), and secondly, there should have been more of these calibers long ago - due to the new generation of cartridges and, in particular, specialized sniper cartridges. The claims regarding the nomenclature of artillery shells, the same for MLRS, also look strange. The fact that “Armata”, “Kurgan” and “coalition” will sooner or later “unify” something there - so now, should we abandon the new technology forever?
    In general, the only rational remark in this entire stream is the deunification of military equipment, dating back to the Soviet period 50 years ago.
  56. +1
    16 July 2022 14: 12
    "Unification is more important than innovation." The phrase is beautiful. But the meaning is nonsense. Weapons are changing. You can make a deliberately heavy Abrams. And then modernize it. But this is all up to certain limits. And we cannot afford a tank like Abrams. He won't go anywhere. And so it is everywhere.
    Here is the current caliber 152 mm - 6 dm. If we use the old projectile system, we will never get artillery like the 155 mm NATO has. We need to create a Coalition. This means that until the old ammunition is exhausted, you will have to have two 6-dm calibers. Etc.
  57. -1
    16 July 2022 21: 46
    Quote: svp67
    the new unified equipment of the Russian military-industrial complex will not be able to quickly saturate the army

    Strange. How can this be done in principle if unification has just begun? T-14. Armata is not a tank, but a platform. Developing unified product systems is two orders of magnitude more difficult, time-consuming and expensive. The platform combines contradictory requirements of different products, which cannot be reconciled, but only at the cost of introducing excesses that are suitable in one case for one product and not used in others. Excess makes production more expensive. and the products are heavier. Excess tank armor is not needed, but is used for armored personnel carriers. In the name of unification and simplification of logistics, wider use of automated production of products having a total quantity is justified.
  58. -1
    16 July 2022 21: 55
    Quote: mmaxx
    "Unification is more important than innovation." The phrase is beautiful. But the meaning is nonsense. Weapons are changing. You can make a deliberately heavy Abrams. And then modernize it. But this is all up to certain limits. And we cannot afford a tank like Abrams. He won't go anywhere. And so it is everywhere.
    Here is the current caliber 152 mm - 6 dm. If we use the old projectile system, we will never get artillery like the 155 mm NATO has. We need to create a Coalition. This means that until the old ammunition is exhausted, you will have to have two 6-dm calibers. Etc.

    You don't understand the word at all in this matter. Unification is not an artificial limitation of something, for example, types of tank, but the construction of dimensional systems that form the same approach to the production of different products. Are you satisfied with self-tapping screws of several diameters and several lengths, with a total number of standard sizes in the hundreds? To produce these pieces you need one equipment, tooling, materials, production lines, but production differs by replacing several automatic settings; the transition from one standard size to another occurs in minutes. THIS is a unified range built on a single dimensional principle. Moreover, the length was not chosen randomly, but is subject to mathematical selection according to the preferred series of sizes. Standardized, in particular, in the USSR GOST 6636-69 - Basic standards of interchangeability. Normal linear dimensions.
  59. 0
    18 July 2022 01: 16
    In the Air Force, this problem is in full force, but it is not so obvious. For example, during the production of the MiG-23, about 20 modifications were produced, and the first 23 are very different from the MLD. But that's not all. Even within the same modification, aircraft differ. Therefore, they are produced in series, 20 aircraft each. In a series, the aircraft are strictly identical. When re-equipping a regiment, they try to use vehicles of the same or similar series. When Serdyukov began to drag the remnants of the Air Force into air bases, IAS officers received such a zoo that oh! The planes are formally the same, but in fact they are different. MiG, Su and Tu have different design schools, which created a lot of problems for the troops. Maybe it will be possible to achieve unification in a single UAC.
  60. 0
    18 July 2022 11: 07
    “Heavy Soviet legacy...” Without him, Fedorov, they would have fought at all... with what?? What new things have been created in Russia in 20 years?
  61. The comment was deleted.
  62. 0
    20 July 2022 15: 36
    If unification had been more important than innovation, the USSR would have fought on T 26, but during the war innovation came first. T34 at the beginning of the war and T34 at the end of the war are different machines.

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