Best in class: Mi-28H and AH-64D Apache Longbow

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The other day came from India unpleasant news. The tender for the purchase of attack helicopters was won not by the Russian Mi-28H, but by the American Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow. The “long-suffering” competition, despite some unfavorable predictions regarding its outcome, is still over, even if not in favor of Russian helicopter builders. Recall, for the first time, the desire to buy an 22 attack helicopter from New Delhi was announced back in the 2008 year. Russia then presented the Ka-50, and the European firms EADS and Augusta Westland were competitors. A little later, the Americans from Bell and Boeing joined the competition. In general, the result of the competition was unpredictable. However, everything ended as no one could have expected: less than a year after the start, the Indians turned off the tender. True, after a few months it was continued, but with a new composition of participants.



Mi-28H participated in the renewed competition from Russia, and the United States presented its Apache Longbow. After comparing the documentation and submitted helicopters, the Indian military took a specific position. On the one hand, they were satisfied by the Russian Mi-28H. On the other hand, it was clear from the statements and actions of potential customers that they would hardly buy this helicopter. As an explanation of these "double standards", the Indians are sometimes reluctant to buy weapons and military equipment from only one country. This is completely understandable: India is currently the world's largest buyer. weapons. Naturally, New Delhi does not want to order weapons only from Russia and receive a number of specific problems associated with spare parts, etc. As a result, as already mentioned, the American project was chosen as the winner. In the coming years, the Boeing company will receive about one and a half billion dollars and send to India more than two brand new attack helicopters.

Best in class: Mi-28H and AH-64D Apache Longbow


The outcome of the Indian tender for the Russian public looks sad. Naturally, the expected gossip and comparisons of our Mi-28H with the American Apache immediately began. As a matter of fact, these discussions have been going on for more than one year and now their next round has just begun. Let's try to compare these machines, which by right are the embodiment of the most advanced technologies in the helicopter industry of the two countries.

Technical specifications

First of all, it is necessary to touch upon the concept of application, in accordance with which Mi-28Н and AH-64 were created. The American helicopter was designed to become a carrier of precision weapons designed to attack enemy equipment and objects. In the future, it was planned to equip it with equipment for all-weather work and new weapons. All this most directly affected the appearance of the finished machine. The Soviet / Russian helicopter, in turn, continued the concept of an attack aircraft, a helicopter direct support for troops. However, unlike the previous shock of the Mi-24, the Mi-28 was not supposed to carry soldiers. Nevertheless, the Soviet project meant the installation of a wide range of weapons, designed both to combat the enemy's manpower and to destroy armored vehicles. The main work on both projects was started at about the same time, but a number of technical problems, and then economic difficulties, “spread out” the start of serial production of helicopters for more than twenty years. In the past since the beginning of the production time, several modifications of both helicopters were created. Of these, only AH-64D Apache Longbow and Mi-28H went to the large series.

AH-64D Apache 101 aviation US Army Regiment in Iraq


We begin the comparison of helicopters with their weight and size parameters. The empty Mi-28H is almost one and a half times heavier than the “American” - 7900 kg versus 5350. A similar situation is observed with normal take-off weight, which in the Apache is equal to 7530 kilograms, and in the Mi-28Н - 10900. The maximum take-off weight of both helicopters is about a ton more than normal. And yet a much more important parameter for a combat vehicle is the mass of the payload. The Mi-28Н carries almost two times more weight on the suspensions than the “Apache” - 1600 kilogram. The only drawback of a larger payload is the need for a more powerful engine. So, the Mi-28H is equipped with two TV3-117ВМА turboshaft engines with a take-off power of 2200 horsepower. Engines "Apache" - two General Electric T-700GE-701C 1890 HP on takeoff mode. Thus, the American helicopter has a large power density - about 400-405 HP. per tonne normal take-off weight than the Mi-28H.

In addition, it is necessary to consider the load on the screw. With a rotor diameter in 14,6 meters, the AH-64D has a floppy disk in 168 square meters. The larger Mi-28H propeller with a 17,2 meter diameter gives this helicopter a disc area of ​​232 sq.m. Thus, the load on the disk in the Apache Longbow and the Mi-28H with a normal take-off weight is 44 and 46 kilograms per square meter, respectively. At the same time, despite the lower load on the screw, in terms of speed, the Apache Longbow wins the Mi-28H only at the maximum allowable speed. In an emergency, the American helicopter can accelerate to 365 km / h. The Russian helicopter in this parameter is several tens of kilometers per hour. The cruising speed of both helicopters is about the same - 265-270 km / h. As for the flight range, here is the leader of the Mi-28H. With a full refueling of its own tanks, it can fly up to 450 kilometers, which is 45-50 kilometers more than AH-64D. The static and dynamic ceilings of the considered machines are approximately equal.

Mi-28H board №37 yellow at the exhibition MAKS-2007, Ramenskoye, 26.08.2007 (photo - Fedor Borisov, http://www.airliners.net)


Guns and unguided weapons

It should be noted that the weight and flight data are actually a means of ensuring the delivery of weapons to the place of their use. It is in the composition of weapons and related equipment that the most serious differences of the Apache Longbow and the Mi-28Н lie. In general, the set of weapons is relatively similar: helicopters carry an automatic gun, unguided and guided weapons; Ammunition composition may vary depending on the need. A constant part of the weapons of both helicopters remain guns. In the nose of the helicopter Mi-28H there is a mobile cannon mount NPPU-28 with a gun 2А42 of millimeter 30 caliber. The automatic gun of the Russian helicopter, among other things, is interesting because it was borrowed from the armament complex of the BMP-2 and BMD-2 ground combat vehicles. Due to this origin, 2А42 can hit manpower and lightly armored enemy vehicles at distances of at least two or three kilometers. The maximum effective range of fire is four kilometers. On the American helicopter AH-64D, in turn, the 30-mm M230 Chain Gun cannon is mounted in the mobile unit. With the same caliber as the 2А42, the American gun differs from it in its characteristics. Thus, “Chain Gan” has a higher rate of fire - about 620 rounds per minute versus 500 on 2А42. At the same time, M230 uses the 30x113 mm projectile, and 2A42 uses the 30x165 mm. Because of the smaller weight of gunpowder in the projectiles and the shorter barrel, the Chain Gun has a smaller effective fire range: about 1,5-2 kilometers. In addition, it should be noted that 2А42 is an automatic gun with a vapor system, and M230, as its name implies, is made according to the scheme of an automatic gun with an external drive. Thus, the “Chain Gan” requires an external power supply to operate the automation. As practice shows, such a system is viable and efficient, but in some countries it is considered that the aircraft gun must be “self-sufficient” and not require any external sources of energy. The barrel arms of the Mi-28H helicopter are the product of this very concept. The only parameter by which the Apache Longbow cannon surpasses the installation of the MTPU-28 is the ammunition load. The American helicopter carries up to 1200 shells, Russian - four times less.

The rest of the weapons of both helicopters is mounted on four pylons under the wing. Universal holders allow you to hang a wide range of weapons. It is worth noting that of the helicopters in question, only Mi-28H has the ability to use bombs. The fact is that the guided bombs in NATO have too much weight for AH-64D to take in enough. At the same time, the payload of the Mi-28H in 1600 kg does not allow to suspend more than three bombs of the caliber 500 kg, which is clearly not enough for most tasks. It is worth noting that at the development stage of the Apache project, American engineers and the military abandoned the idea of ​​a helicopter bomber. The possibility of carrying and using guided bombs was considered, but the relatively small payload of the helicopter did not, as a result, make it possible to fully implement this idea. For this reason, both the AH-64D and the Mi-28H are mainly “using” missile weapons.



A characteristic distinction of the helicopters is the range of used unguided missiles. The American Apache Longbow carries only Hydra 70 rocket caliber 70 mm. Depending on the need, launch pads with a capacity of up to 19 unguided missiles (M261 or LAU-61 / A) can be mounted on the pylons of the helicopter. Thus, the maximum stock is 76 missiles. In this case, the instructions for the operation of the helicopter are advised to take no more than two units with NAR - these recommendations are due to the maximum payload. Mi-28H was originally created as a helicopter of the battlefield, which influenced the nomenclature of unguided weapons. In one configuration or another, the Russian helicopter can carry a wide range of unguided aircraft in large quantities. For example, when installing blocks for C-8 missiles, the maximum ammunition is 80 rockets. In the case of the use of heavier C-13 ammunition is four times less. In addition, the Mi-28H, if necessary, can carry containers with machine guns or cannons, as well as unguided bombs and incendiary tanks of the appropriate caliber.

Mi-28H board №08 blue at the air base in Budennovsk, 2010. The helicopter is equipped with a complete set of on-board defense complex - containers with IR traps, sensors SPO, etc. (photo - Alex Beltyukov, http://www.airliners.net)


Guided weapons

Such an advantage in relation to unguided weapons is due to the initial concept of the use of helicopters. Apache, and then Apache Longbow, was created as a hunter for enemy armored vehicles, which affected its entire appearance and weapons in the first place. In the early stages of development, the intended use of the future attack helicopter was seen as follows. The helicopter junction is on the intended path of an enemy mechanized column and is waiting for a reconnaissance signal or is independently looking for targets. When approaching tanks or other enemy armored vehicles, helicopters, hiding under the folds of terrain, "jump out" to the launch point and launch an attack with anti-tank missiles. First of all, it was necessary to knock out anti-aircraft self-propelled guns, after which it was possible to destroy other equipment. Initially, the BGM-64 TOW guided missiles were considered the main weapons for the AH-71. However, their relatively short range - no more than four kilometers - could lead to sad consequences for the pilots. In the mid-seventies, the USSR and its allies were armed with military air defense systems capable of fighting targets at such distances. Therefore, the attacking helicopter during the guidance of the TOW missile risked being shot down. As a result, I had to look for a new weapon, which was the AGM-114 Hellfire missile. In the early versions of this missile, semi-active radar guidance was used, but then, for various reasons, experiments began with other types of homing. As a result, in 1998, the AGM-114L Longbow Hellfire missile, designed specifically for the AH-64D Apache Longbow helicopter, was adopted. From the previous modifications, it is primarily distinguished by homing equipment. For the first time in the Hellfire family, an original combination of inertial and radar guidance was used. Immediately before launch, the helicopter’s onboard equipment transmits to the missile data regarding the target: the direction and distance to it, as well as the parameters of the helicopter and the enemy’s machine. To do this, the helicopter is forced to "jump out" for several seconds due to natural shelter. At the end of the “jump”, a rocket is launched. Hellfire Longbow independently enters the approximate target area using an inertial guidance system, after which it includes an active radar system that captures the target and finally guides it. This guidance method actually allows you to limit the launch range only to the characteristics of the rocket engine. Currently, Hellfire fly at a range of about 8-10 km. A characteristic feature of the updated Hellfire missile is the absence of the need for constant illumination of the target by helicopter or ground units. At the same time, the AGM-114L is much more expensive than previous modifications of this missile, however, the difference in the cost of ammunition is more than compensated by the destruction of the enemy armored car.



The Mi-28Н helicopter, in turn, was created as an air support vehicle, including the destruction of armored targets. For this reason, its armament is more universal than specialized. To combat the enemy’s armored vehicles, the Mi-28H can be equipped with “Storm” guided missiles or a newer type “Attack-V”. On the pylons of the helicopter is placed up to 16 missiles of one or another model. Russian anti-tank missiles use a different guidance system than the US. “Storm” and its deep modernization “Attack-V” use radio command guidance. This technical solution has both advantages and disadvantages. The positive features of the applied command system relate to the simplicity and low cost of the rocket. In addition, the lack of need for heavy equipment for self-guidance allows you to make either more compact rockets, or equip them with a more powerful warhead. As a result, the base missile of the Attack complex of the 9М120 model delivers a tandem cumulative warhead with a penetrability of at least 800 mm of homogeneous armor to a distance of six kilometers. There is information about the existence of new versions of the rocket, having the best indicators of armor penetration and range. However, for these qualities have to pay. Radio command guidance requires installation on a helicopter of relatively complex equipment for capturing and tracking a target, as well as for generating and sending commands for a rocket. Thus, the helicopter does not have the ability to use anti-tank weapons in a “jump” mode for tracking and guiding the missile. Radio command guidance requires a relatively long stay in the zone of visibility of the enemy, which exposes the helicopter to the danger of a retaliatory attack. For this, the onboard equipment of the Mi-28H has the ability to change the direction of the control radiation. The rotating unit of the transmitting antenna and the tracking equipment for the rocket allows the helicopter to maneuver along the yaw within 110 ° from the launch direction and tilt up to 30 ° from the horizontal. Of course, such opportunities in certain circumstances may turn out to be insufficient, which, however, is compensated by the missile’s sufficient range and its high speed. In other words, with a successful set of circumstances, the anti-tank missile of the Ataka-V complex will be able to destroy the enemy anti-aircraft system before it has time to launch the missile in response. At the same time, do not forget about the trends of recent years, implying a complete transition to the concept of "shot-forgotten."

For self-defense, both helicopters can carry air-to-air guided missiles. For this purpose, the Mi-28H is equipped with four short-range P-60 missiles with an infra-red homing head; AH-64D - AIM-92 Stinger or AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles with similar guidance systems.



Crew and protection systems

When building Mi-28 and AH-64 helicopters, customers expressed the wish to get combat vehicles with a crew of two. This requirement was due to the desire to facilitate the work of the helicopter pilots. Thus, the crew of both helicopters consists of two people - the pilot and the navigator-operator. Another feature that unites helicopters concerns the location of the pilots. The designers of Mil and McDonnell Douglas (she developed Apache before being bought by Boeing), together with the military, came to the conclusion regarding the optimal placement of crew jobs. The tandem arrangement of the two cockpits made it possible to reduce the width of the fuselage, improve visibility from workplaces, and also provide both pilots with a complete set of equipment necessary for piloting and / or using weapons. It is noteworthy that the helicopters under consideration are not only united by the idea of ​​crew accommodation. On both helicopters, the cockpit is located behind and above the cockpit of the weapon operator. Approximately similar and the compositions of the equipment booths. Thus, the pilot of the Mi-28H or AH-64D helicopter has at its disposal the entire set of flight instruments, as well as some means for the use of weapons, primarily unguided rocket launchers. Navigators-operators, in turn, also have the ability to control the flight, but their jobs are seriously equipped to use all types of weapons.

Separately, it is worthwhile to dwell on security systems. Being at a short distance from the enemy, the helicopter of the battlefield risks falling under the fire of enemy anti-aircraft artillery or becoming a target for guided missiles. As a result, some protection is required. The main element of the booking Mi-28H is a metal "bath", made of 10-mm aluminum armor. Ceramic tiles with a thickness of 16 mm are installed on top of the aluminum construction. Polyurethane sheets are laid between the layer of metal and ceramics. Such a composite reservation can withstand shelling from NATO NATO 20-mm guns. The design of the doors to reduce weight is a "sandwich" of two aluminum plates and a polyurethane block. Cabin glazing is made of silicate blocks with a thickness of 22 mm (side windows) and 44 mm (frontal). Cabin windshields withstand 12,7-mm bullets, while side windows protect against rifle weapons. Reservations also have some vital construction units.



In case the armor did not save the helicopter from critical damage, there are two ways to save the crew. At heights of over one hundred meters above the surface, the main rotor blades, the doors of both cabins and wings are shot, after which special ballonets are inflated, protecting the pilots from strikes against the structural elements. Then the pilots independently leave the helicopter with a parachute. In case of an accident at lower altitudes, where it is not possible to escape with a parachute, the Mi-28H has one more set of measures to save the crew. In case of an accident at an altitude of less than one hundred meters, the automatics tighten the pilot's seat belts and fix them in the correct posture. After that, the helicopter is reduced with the permissible speed in autorotation mode. When landing, the helicopter landing gear and specially designed pilot seats of the Pamir, developed in Zvezda Scientific and Production Enterprise, take over most of the overload that occurs when you touch it. Overloading the order of 50-60 units when structural elements are destroyed is extinguished to 15-17.

The armor protection of the AH-64D helicopter is generally similar to the armor of the Mi-28H, with the difference that the American helicopter is lighter and smaller than the Russian one. As a result, the Apache Longbow cab protects pilots only from millimeter 12,7 caliber bullets. In case of more serious damage between the cabins, there is an armored partition that protects from fragments of shells of caliber up to 23 mm. The overload cancellation system is generally similar to the package of measures taken by the Russian helicopter. The effectiveness of its work can be judged by several known facts. So, at the beginning of this year, a video from Afghanistan was distributed on the Internet, where American pilots on the Apache performed aerobatics in conditions of rarefied mountain air. The pilot did not take into account some of the parameters of the atmosphere, because of which the helicopter literally rode on the ground. Later it turned out that the crew got off with a slight fright and a couple of abrasions, and after a short repair the helicopter went back into service.

Helicopter Mi-28H board No. 50 yellow from a batch of helicopters transferred to the Air Force at 344 air base TSBPiPLLS AA 8 October 2011, Torzhok, Tver region (photo by Sergey Ablogin, http://ablogin.ru/)


Radio electronic equipment

One of the main elements of the Mi-28H and AH-64D Apache Longbow projects is radio electronic equipment. Improving the characteristics of military air defense systems has led to the fact that the concept of the attack helicopter has another point: new machines should have the ability to quickly detect and identify targets at relatively long distances. To do this, it was necessary to equip the helicopter with a radar station and new computing systems. The first such modernization was carried out by the Americans, installing the Lockheed Martin / Northrop Grumman AN / APG-64 Longbow radar on AH-78D.

The most conspicuous part of this station is its antenna, which is placed in the fairing above the screw hub. The rest of the equipment of the Longbow radar is mounted in the fuselage. The radar can operate in three modes: by ground targets, by air, and to track the terrain. In the first case, the station “scans” a sector wide in 45 ° to the right and left of the flight direction and detects targets at distances up to 10-12 kilometers. At these distances, the station can track up to 256 targets and simultaneously determine their type. Based on the characteristic nuances of the reflected radio signal, the AN / APG-78 station automatically determines which object it comes from. In memory of the radar there are signatures of tanks, self-propelled self-propelled guns, helicopters and airplanes. Due to this, the weapon operator has the ability to pre-determine priority targets and pre-configure the AGM-114L rocket, passing on the parameters of the selected target. In the event that it is impossible to accurately determine the danger of an object, a radio frequency interferometer antenna is mounted in the lower part of the Longbow radome radar. This device receives signals emitted by other combat vehicles, and determines the direction to their source. Thus, by comparing data from the radar station and the interferometer, the weapon operator can with high accuracy find the most dangerous enemy armored object. After the detection and introduction of target parameters, the pilot makes a “jump”, and the navigator launches a rocket.



The AN / APG-78 radar operating mode for aerial targets implies a circular view of the surrounding space with the definition of three types of targets: airplanes, as well as moving and frozen helicopters. As for the tracking mode of the terrain, in this case, "Longbow" provides low-altitude flight, including in adverse weather conditions. It is interesting to display information about the surface: so that the pilot was not distracted by the mass of symbols, only those obstacles whose height is approximately equal to or higher than the height of the helicopter’s flight are displayed on the radar screen. Due to this, the pilot does not waste time on identifying those objects and landscape elements that can be simply ignored because of their safety.

It is worth noting that, in addition to the new AN / APG-78 radar, Apache Longbow avionics also includes other more familiar systems. The integrated weapons control system, if necessary, allows the use of TADS, PNVS, etc. equipment. In addition, the helicopter AH-64D used a new system of identification "friend or foe", among other things, automatically blocking attempts to make an attack on an object identified as its own. This opportunity was added in connection with the repeated incidents of strikes against our own and allied forces through the fault of reconnaissance and target designation. According to various calculations, the combat effectiveness of the AH-64D helicopter equipped with the Longbow radar is up to four times higher than that of the base vehicle. Survival at the same time increased almost sevenfold.

The basis of the on-board radio-electronic equipment of the Mi-28H helicopter and its main "highlight" is the H-025 radar developed by the Ryazan State Instrument Plant (GRPS). It is worth noting that there is some confusion regarding the radar for the domestic helicopter. Because of the rather complicated stories the choice of equipment for the Mi-28H, a number of sources mention the use of the Arbalet radar, created at the NIIR Phasotron. As in the case of AN / APG-78 Longbow, the antenna of the H-025 station is placed inside the fairing on the rotor hub. At the same time, there are differences. First of all, they relate to methods of application. Unlike the "Longbow", the domestic station has only two modes of operation: by land and by air. The pride of the developers of the station from the GPP are its characteristics when working on the ground. The H-025 station has a wider viewing area of ​​the underlying surface than the AN / APG-78, its width is equal to 120 degrees. The maximum range of "visibility" radar - 32 km. At the same distance, the automatic equipment of the radar station is able to make an approximate map of the area. With regard to the detection and identification of targets, these parameters H-025 are approximately equal to the corresponding characteristics of AN / APG-78. Large objects like bridges are “visible” from a distance of about 25 kilometers. Tanks and similar armored vehicles - with half the distances. The air-to-surface radar mode of operation provides pilotage at low altitudes in all weather conditions and at any time of the day. For this, the H-025 has the ability to detect small objects, such as trees or power line poles. Moreover, at a distance of the order of 400 meters, the Mi-28Н radar can even recognize individual power lines. Another interesting feature of the mapping system is its function of creating a three-dimensional image. If necessary, the crew can “shoot” the area in front of the helicopter using the radar and carefully study it using the 3D model displayed on the screen.

Mi-28N serial No. 07-01 board No. 26 blue in Rostov on Air Day Fleet Russia, August 19.08.2012, XNUMX (photo - ErikRostovSpotter, http://aviaforum.ru)


When the radar is switched to air-to-air mode, the antenna starts a circular rotation, scanning all the surrounding space in azimuth. The vertical viewing area is 60 ° wide. The detection range for “aircraft” targets is within 14-16 kilometers. Anti-aircraft and aircraft missiles "visible" from a distance of about 5-6 km. In the “over the air” mode, the H-025 radar can track up to twenty targets and transmit data about them to other helicopters. A reservation should be made: information on air targets, both on the Mi-28H and AH-64D is used only for analyzing possible risks and transmitting data to other combat vehicles. Air-to-air missiles P-60 or AIM-92, designed for self-defense, are equipped with infrared homing heads and, as a result, do not require prior data transmission from helicopter systems. In addition to the H-025 radar, the Mi-28H has an integrated weapon control system that allows you to use all available weapons in various conditions.

Who is better?

Comparing AH-64D Apache Longbow and Mi-28H helicopters is a rather specific and difficult affair. Of course, both helicopters belong to the class of attack helicopters. However, they share equally and common features and differences. For example, for an ignorant person, both helicopters look quite similar. But on closer examination, differences in size, armament, etc. are striking. Finally, when studying the history of the helicopters in question, it turns out that they differ even at the level of the concept of application. In this regard, two quite different helicopters were created. If you do not go into technical details, the Apache Longbow is a relatively small and light helicopter, the task of which is to "shoot" enemy tanks from a long distance. In addition, the newest version of the AH-64 helicopter was able to conduct operations at any time of the day and in any weather conditions, of course, when it is possible to rise into the air. Mi-28Н, in turn, was created as a significant reworking of its “older brother” Mi-24, which did not receive a cargo compartment, but acquired new weaponry. As a result, the Mi-28H was quite large and heavy, which made it possible to increase both the ammunition and the range of available weapons. At the same time, the Russian helicopter, taking into account the current trends in the development of rotary-winged aircraft and foreign experience, received its own radar station, which significantly increased its combat potential. At the same time, in spite of the new capabilities in the range of attack of targets, the Mi-28Н retained the ability to “hover” over the enemy’s head and attacks from short distances. As for the combat potential of helicopters, it is impossible to compare it at all - only the Apache Longbow participated in the actual battles of the vehicles in question.




Thus, AH-64D Apache Longbow and Mi-28H are both similar and not. It is not difficult to guess that the main differences relate to weapons and the method of its use. Accordingly, it is these qualities of helicopters that should be the main factor influencing the choice of the winner in tenders for the purchase of equipment. It seems that the Indian military, torn between two great options, still decided to get lighter helicopters, "sharpened" to fight the enemy's armored vehicles. But Iraq, unlike India, apparently, preferred a more versatile impact machine in the face of the Mi-28H. Recently, official sources from the administrations of Russia and Iraq have confirmed that in the coming years, an Arab country will receive three dozen Mi-28H helicopters in export version and more than forty Pantsir-C1 air defense missile systems. The total amount of contracts exceeded four billion US dollars. As you can see, the helicopters AH-64D and Mi-28H are good. And each is good in his own way, which, however, does not prevent them from finding new customers.


On the materials of the sites:
http://airwar.ru/
http://army-technology.com/
http://kbm.ru/
http://zvezda-npp.ru/
http://lockheedmartin.com/
http://airbase.ru/
http://vz.ru/
http://lenta.ru/
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/
215 comments
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  1. snek
    +37
    11 October 2012 08: 20
    As for the combat potential of helicopters, it is impossible to compare it at all - only Apache Longbow participated in real battles from the vehicles under consideration.

    And this is his very important advantage in the eyes of any buyer.
    1. Kazak_30
      +18
      11 October 2012 09: 06
      Absolutely agree! But the American always fought with those who are weaker, and when the country's air defense is very strong, then I would have looked ...
      1. Tirpitz
        +19
        11 October 2012 10: 04
        Quote: Kazak_30
        and when the country's air defense is very strong, then I would have looked ..

        Then the Mi-28, too, will not fight much.
        1. rjhgec55v
          +2
          29 October 2012 15: 36
          You again forgot the different purpose of helicopters. Amer helicopter - shot and flew away to return fire. our helicopter is like a tank directly on the battlefield .. capable of withstanding machine gun fire of the enemy
      2. +11
        12 October 2012 01: 01
        Quote: Kazak_30
        But the American always fought with those who are weaker

        And it was for this purpose that they created, fly in, hit tanks on the turret and fly away until they knocked themselves.

        And our Mi - a rambo helicopter, flies into the thick of the battle, wets everyone in a row (by the way, this is well shown in the Rambo 3 movie itself).

        Apache is not intended for battle, it’s so, to quietly launch rockets and go home ...
        1. Alex 241
          +3
          12 October 2012 01: 13
          Well you are burning !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! laughing
        2. SenyaYa
          -5
          15 October 2012 22: 31
          nonsense of a madman) the difference in booking is insignificant, which prompted you to think that mi was the 26th rotalebo .... the logic of a 3 year old baby
          1. rjhgec55v
            0
            29 October 2012 15: 39
            READ THE TEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            Different purposes of helicopters ... our attack of the enemy in counteracting the enemy, Amer. does not come directly into contact with the enemy .. shot and flew away ..
    2. 0
      11 October 2012 10: 40
      The reason for the loss is precisely the unavailability of the radar Crossbow, which pulls something
      1. +8
        11 October 2012 14: 38
        The current Commander-in-Chief of the Indian Air Force, England and the United States considers the most worthy countries in the world, even when he was the commander of the base he repeatedly propagated this. I asked myself to call Jiri Brown. Everything Russian was always biased to put it mildly. And given their mentality, even with better technical characteristics of the equipment, nothing shone there for us.
        1. Hon
          +2
          12 October 2012 11: 53
          At the same time, India buys our fighters, and together with us develops a 5th generation fighter. Somehow it does not fit with bias. It was necessary to put up for the Ka 52 competition, then it would be more likely to get this contract.
          1. +1
            12 October 2012 14: 37
            I know a little how she has been buying them for the last 20 years, so to speak, in dynamics, everything is not so simple there, and lobbying is getting stronger every time, and the "players" on this field have increased and the attitude towards us has long been different, so the chances there were few.
            1. Hon
              +1
              12 October 2012 15: 36
              This is naturally India a tidbit to fight for! Who said it would be easy? You need to be the best to receive contracts. In addition, our several times have shown themselves not on the best side, not meeting deadlines and delivering products of inadequate quality.
      2. -7
        11 October 2012 15: 46
        Not only. 28 lost on 20 points
      3. VAF
        VAF
        +17
        11 October 2012 17: 17
        Quote: Civil
        The reason for the loss is the unavailability of the radar Crossbow


        Well, how much can you repeat ........ DOES NOT COST A REDBAND RADAR on the Mi-28 .. DOES NOT WORTH !!!

        He has his own supra-muzzle H025 !!!!!



        A radar crossbow on the Ka-52nd, in the bow !!!

        1. sasha127
          +1
          12 October 2012 16: 30
          And what is the dispute in the article clearly stated that the Mi-28 helicopter stormtrooper is designed to support troops directly on the battlefield. Apache's task is to shoot missiles from behind the backs of his troops.
          1. 0
            18 October 2012 13: 44
            Yes, you can write everything, MI-28 is not MI-24, HE was the first and really attack aircraft, He was not only the first but also the only one in this role, APACH appeared after him. He took the best everything he could from MI-24, And ours It took me a long time to launch the series, But the war has changed, I believe that our MI-28 will be brought to mind and maybe it will give odds to the Yankees, After all, we are the parents of this system. The descendant of MI-24 cannot be worse. the sky
        2. 0
          12 October 2012 19: 33
          Quote: vaf
          He has his own supra-muzzle H025 !!!!!

          TTX radar N-025E (2011):
          Frequency Range - Ka
          The number of simultaneously accompanied goals - 4
          Range - 20 km
          Hazardous weather detection range - up to 100 km
          Review time - no more than 1 sec
          Azimuth Viewing Area - 180 Degree Sector
          The viewing area in elevation is from -25 to + 15 degrees.
          Sector of search for ground targets in azimuth - 90 degrees
          Sector of search for ground targets by elevation - 35 degrees
          Sector of search for air targets in azimuth - 180 degrees
          Sector of search for air targets by elevation - 4-12 degrees
          1. +3
            12 October 2012 21: 05
            Appearance of Н025Э
      4. +1
        13 October 2012 05: 43
        the reasons for the loss are politics. Well, I want Indian politicians to diversify arms supplies, so as not to be dependent only on one country - their right. and the competition so that it would not be so insulting
    3. Region71
      +7
      11 October 2012 12: 41
      Quote: snek
      real battles involved only Apache Longbow

      Yes, that really says it all.
      1. -4
        11 October 2012 13: 41
        Our turntable needs to increase the ammunition load of the gun and then he will not have a price !!!
        1. Simon bolivar
          -6
          11 October 2012 16: 24
          I have not read the article, but this topic is already just infuriating.
          It has long been clear to everyone that only ka52, as a two-seat modification of a shark and Comanche, which is super expensive, can be the best. And those presented are nothing more than average.
          1. +2
            11 October 2012 18: 21
            Both of these helicopters are not attack, but reconnaissance and attack, this is a different class in the first place. Secondly, they themselves are much more expensive than attack aircraft, which makes their mass application difficult. Thirdly, the Ka-52 can be called the best with a stretch. Without over-gun radar and missiles with an active seeker, he, like the Mi-28, unlike the Apache, can’t systematically destroy the enemy’s armored vehicles, hiding behind shelters with precision shots. Yes, and in electronics, the Apache loses.
            1. Simon bolivar
              -5
              11 October 2012 22: 36
              reconnaissance-shock-only Comanche
              The ka52 is the best attack helicopter to date, only Russia can’t see it in large quantities, with the money needed to create one ka52, four mi28n can be built.
              1. Marine One
                +3
                12 October 2012 14: 30
                The Comanche program is closed 8 years ago. The drones were cheaper and easier for tasks designed for that helicopter.
                1. Simon bolivar
                  0
                  12 October 2012 21: 03
                  And? This does not prevent him from being awarded second place in the ranking of the best attack helicopters in the world.
        2. 0
          11 October 2012 18: 18
          What will this achieve?
          That would be normal rockets for him, like hellfire + electronics are better, then the truth will not be the price.
          1. Simon bolivar
            +11
            11 October 2012 22: 40
            You kid is an extremely sharp nickname, and you are pretty sharp at all, and you should know that all mega-fuck-cool American ammunition has a built-in function: to destroy the FAST kiddies so that they do not bring us the light of knowledge, and we still wandered into ignorance.
            But seriously, if American weapons were at least half as good as painted, the whole world would have become American long ago.
          2. 0
            12 October 2012 01: 05
            Quote: patsantre
            That would be normal rockets for him, like hellfire

            but they are, read the article. The only bad thing is that they need to be monitored (and not shot + forgot), but still there. Of course follow = bad.
        3. +3
          12 October 2012 01: 03
          Quote: nycsson
          Our turntable needs to increase the ammunition load of the gun and then he will not have a price !!!


          indeed, 300 bullets are worthless, although they are thick, but there are only 300 of them, you won’t get so many ...
          1. rjhgec55v
            0
            29 October 2012 15: 47
            Watch amer movies for less. They shoot there in bursts of 10 minutes. Reality - single shooting at 5 shells ..
            instead of a ton of bullets, an excess rocket would be better
            MI-28 has more missiles .. which means damage it can do more

            Example A-18 amer attack aircraft, put on him six barrel hepshit and zero sense, huge consumption of bullets, the tank does not break through. the infantry also does not work, too much dispersion of ammunition ... only in the movies effectively shoots ... in the end, this attack aircraft only shoots missiles ..
            1. 0
              29 October 2012 16: 03
              Example A-18 amer attack aircraft, put on him six barrel hepshit and zero sense, huge consumption of bullets, the tank does not break through. the infantry also does not work, too much dispersion of ammunition ... only in the movies effectively shoots ... in the end, this attack aircraft only shoots missiles ..

              you determined storyteller
              What kind of attack aircraft such A-18? Is this not so?
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7efdCTsk8I

              huge ammo consumption

              shells?

              the tank does not break through

              no matter what they do, the coconut does not bloom ... fellow
        4. rjhgec55v
          -1
          29 October 2012 15: 42
          And why so many rounds ... it’s being watered for hours in enemy’s bullets in reality in reality after a minute of intensive shooting and a kapets cannon .. they shoot in batches of 5 rounds ... so this is overweight
      2. Hon
        0
        12 October 2012 08: 24
        Ka 52 also participated in the battles, and proved to be excellent.
        1. Marine One
          +3
          12 October 2012 15: 35
          Quote: Hon
          Ka 52 also participated in the battles, and proved to be excellent.


          And you do not confuse with KA-50? 52nd only in 1997 took off as a layout; and prototypes appeared only in 2008.
        2. -1
          26 June 2016 09: 07
          Only 2 SC participated in the Chechen. KA-50 and KA-29
          http://www.airforce.ru/content/daidzhest-1/208-proverka-boem-podlinnaya-istoriya

          -boevoi-udarnoi-gruppy /
      3. rjhgec55v
        0
        29 October 2012 15: 40
        And ours that does not participate .. that everyone forgot Chechnya .. there are 10 of these flies
        1. 0
          26 June 2016 09: 08
          Only 2 SC participated in the Chechen. KA-50 and KA-29
          http://www.airforce.ru/content/daidzhest-1/208-proverka-boem-podlinnaya-istoriya

          -boevoi-udarnoi-gruppy /
    4. 0
      18 October 2012 13: 15
      Hi, Yes, even though in absentia they compared APACH with MI-28, which is interesting, in their class they are almost equal, but dignity is determined in battles, I don’t think that only small arms will shoot at MI-28, if it is spotted, then our MI will receive there’s always a line of 30mm guns on board that stands on the BMP, I don’t think that the probable enemy is armed only with small arms, Now the armies of the probable enemy are heavily equipped with various weapons, But I'm glad that we were able to put this machine on stream, Weapons are still weak, B probably about they will equip with a normal type of weapon and BISUO, In the future it will not hang out in sight waiting for the enemy’s defeat, The principle shot and forgot should be implemented everywhere, This is the main rule of the armies of the probable enemy, But I'm glad that the new equipment begins to go into combat units, I think with time and this helicopter will give APACH a head start. While there is nothing to see and discuss,
    5. rjhgec55v
      -2
      29 October 2012 15: 31
      :)))) during the amer invasion of Iraq, the American command decided to storm an Iraqi military base only with Apache helicopters, apparently they had seen enough of the film)))) and this base was guarded by one of the best units of the Iraqi army ... the attempt to frighten the Ikak people failed. .. Unfortunately, the Iraqis didn’t have MANPADS, but there were only large-caliber machine guns .. out of 30 attacking helicopters, after 10 minutes ZERO helicopters remained in the air, 27 were hit 3 left ... why am I ... again about rams ... as hid amer shot and flew away. the helicopter is better there Lea modern equipment is .. our helicopter is a direct attack aircraft ... attack with the simultaneous firing of all that is ..
      1. 0
        29 October 2012 15: 56
        a total of 30 attacking helicopters, after 10 minutes in the air, ZERO helicopters remained, 27 were knocked out 3 left

        but you, however, are a storyteller wink
        1. mexanik
          0
          21 January 2013 22: 43
          Либо википедия врет http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D0%B0%D0%B2%D
          0%B8%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85_%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B5%D1
          %80%D1%8C_%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D
          0%B2_%D0%98%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D
          0% B5 # 2003, or you are really a storyteller! Where are 27 crashed helicopters. Where did you get this from ?!
      2. 0
        29 October 2012 16: 55
        And detail.
  2. 0
    11 October 2012 08: 24
    Perhaps the American opponent has advantages, but they can only manifest themselves in countries such as Iraq or Afghanistan, where there are open spaces, and India is the jungle.
    1. Nubia2
      +5
      11 October 2012 08: 51
      In India there is not only the jungle.
    2. +10
      11 October 2012 09: 26
      I traveled around India for a couple of months and almost never met the jungle. Did you see Mowgli? wink
      1. +1
        11 October 2012 21: 07
        Professor, really all knocked out !! ?? belay laughing
      2. +1
        11 October 2012 21: 08
        good And who did not watch it ???? Heavy Soviet legacy.
    3. +2
      11 October 2012 15: 47
      Funny, good joke
    4. Region71
      +1
      11 October 2012 17: 14
      There is indeed a jungle in India. But they are not much more there in percentage terms than the taiga in Russia. In India there are several natural zones with completely different conditions.
      1. mexanik
        0
        21 January 2013 22: 48
        A helicopter will not be able to fly over the trees !? Or is there some special jungle?
    5. vitya29111973
      0
      1 February 2013 11: 24
      as much as four percent of the area, and then almost everything is in the east of the country. The whole plot of the war with Pakistan, and this is 80 percent desert and 20 percent of the mountain.
  3. +1
    11 October 2012 09: 02
    While our Apache will finish the radar will be on an equal footing with its pros and cons
  4. mar.tira
    -3
    11 October 2012 09: 11
    Yes, the flag in their hands, and a pen in the w .... y!
  5. +14
    11 October 2012 09: 29
    Apache, Mi - it makes no difference - the Kama turntable is any better. It is a pity that her Milevskaya lobbyists were ruined.
    1. +3
      11 October 2012 13: 22
      Professor
      Ka-52 will be no less series, that's for sure especially Ka-52K
      1. +2
        11 October 2012 16: 04
        According to preliminary estimates, the Ka-52K should be produced about 100 units. (although the figure was originally called a little over 30), not counting the possible export. The army turntables should be one and a half times more (the figure was called about 160 units). Again, not taking into account the release of "Alligators" to foreign customers ...
        What will happen next will be a little look ...
    2. +11
      11 October 2012 13: 23
      I fully agree with your opinion, dear Professor...

      "Alligator" fareva !!!
    3. Lech e-mine
      +2
      11 October 2012 17: 20
      Here PROFESSOR I agree with you 100%.
    4. VAF
      VAF
      +6
      11 October 2012 17: 59
      Quote: professor
      Kamovskaya pinwheel is better for anyone


      Pretty controversial statement. Dear Professor!
      There are so many advantages of the Mi-28th over the Ka-52th!
      well, and the rest and about .. lobby ... no doubt here! +!
      1. +7
        11 October 2012 18: 40
        Good day to you, Sergey! drinks
        Everything has its advantages and disadvantages. It has always been and it always will be. However (and as always from the point of view of a well-read dilettante) Kamov's brainchild seems to me nevertheless more successful, and if I may say so, more perfect than the brainchild of the Milians. No offense to the latter, as well as to those who, for a number of reasons (objective and subjective), have sympathy for the "Night Hunter" (or antipathy for the "Alligator") ...
        In any case, this is normal. And in any case, both of these helicopters are ours, domestic, and so to speak native ...
        However, the Apache (we must pay tribute!) Is an excellent and very serious car. And the American flyers have a great and solid experience. Including combat. And this should not be underestimated, much less discounted ...

        However, in any case, my sympathies are with the Alligator. Do not blame me ... smile
      2. +3
        12 October 2012 19: 44
        Quote: vaf
        Pretty controversial statement. Dear Professor!

        I basically for both cars, each has its own positive aspects and its purpose. The Mi-28N did not interfere with making a normal, comfortable cockpit, if the navigator is less or less normal, then the pilot is somewhat upset.
        The photo was interesting in my opinion.
    5. Insurgent
      -8
      11 October 2012 21: 44
      Yes amers ear to the next generation of helicopters pass some have a high speed and mi28 he is already 30 years old
  6. Lakkuchu
    +4
    11 October 2012 09: 33
    ..."When tanks or other armored vehicles of the enemy approach, the helicopters, hiding behind the folds of the terrain," jump out "to the launch point and attack with anti-tank missiles ..."
    And if these same folds of terrain do not exist, what about the plain ?!
    1. mamba
      +5
      11 October 2012 12: 24
      Quote: Lakkuchu
      And if these same folds of terrain do not exist, what about the plain ?!

      Then there will be a night hunt. She is especially good on a moonless night. In Iraq, this was exactly how armored vehicles were destroyed.
      1. Lakkuchu
        +4
        11 October 2012 12: 59
        Thanks for the answer. I still have this question, it will probably seem naive, but I'm not a military man - do I have equipment on modern helicopters that can detect, for example, a man with MANPADS that is aiming at this helicopter?
        1. 0
          11 October 2012 16: 50
          About the topic of protection from MANPADS is a separate, large and terribly interesting. And so on a vskidku "clearly on the question" on the helicopters are installed various detection systems.
    2. Region71
      +1
      11 October 2012 17: 18
      Quote: Lakkuchu
      And if these same folds of terrain do not exist, what about the plain ?!
      Shoot in a helicopter, or go on a suicide attack of tanks. As my acquaintance captain tanker said, the attack by helicopters of tanks that usually cover air defense systems is a real frenzy.
      1. Alex 241
        +4
        11 October 2012 17: 28
        With the combat use of helicopters at extremely low altitudes, only air defense systems will be able to operate. Get acquainted with the zones and heights of the air defense missile defense launches.
        1. Region71
          +3
          11 October 2012 18: 23
          Quote: Alex 241
          With the combat use of helicopters at extremely low altitudes, only barrel systems can work

          At extremely low altitudes, on flat terrain, the MZA air defense system will smash everything that it tries to approach, the same TUNGUSKI, which are armed with tank regiments.
          1. Alex 241
            +1
            11 October 2012 18: 25
            controversial statement, quite.
  7. 0
    11 October 2012 09: 44
    I wonder which helicopter is suitable for the ka-52 class.
    1. +1
      11 October 2012 11: 16
      They are Mi28 and Apache.
      1. +3
        11 October 2012 15: 59
        And also a whole series of helicopters belonging to the class of drums from various kinds of producing countries ...
  8. Eraser
    +9
    11 October 2012 10: 16
    Good article , good , but with this "Thus, the Russian helicopter has a high specific power - about 2,4 hp per ton of normal take-off weight against 1,9 for the AH-64D." something is wrong, 4400 hp / 10.9 tons = 404 hp that ton for the Mi-28 and 4000 hp / 7.35 tons = 544 hp. per ton from AH-64D block III.
    1. +1
      11 October 2012 12: 08
      OK, fixed.
  9. borisst64
    +4
    11 October 2012 10: 20
    The article is very competent and detailed, but there are questions.
    Nothing is said about the noise of the engines, because Apache is known for its noiselessness in the front hemisphere, but what about the situation with Mil?
    About landing pilots from a height of 100 meters or more, I am at a loss. Even with the direct opening of the parachute at a speed of 200-300 km \ h, the minimum landing height is 150-200 m, i.e. at maximum filling of the dome. And if the helicopter crashes, yes, until the fall speed reaches the desired value, in addition, it will take time to shoot the blades, doors, inflate balloons, plus an independent exit from the cockpit. I am at a loss as to how this is achieved.
    1. +2
      14 October 2012 13: 05
      Before the reform began, we had a separate aviation squadron, so one pro on a rescue parachute did full deployment from 60 m belay ! True, the rest of the flyers did everything so as not to make training jumps. wink
  10. Sirozha
    0
    11 October 2012 10: 54
    Dear tell me, what color does the numbering of helicopters have? In the photo captions, attention is drawn to this.
    1. +1
      11 October 2012 12: 14
      Affiliation to the unit. For example, the 26 is one of the six aircraft that recently flew to the 546 air base.
      EMNIP, base helicopters in Budennovsk also have blue numbers. Yellow - Torzhok, Red - Korenovsk.
  11. 0
    11 October 2012 11: 28
    Military equipment is periodically modernized. I have a suspicion that the Boeing will cope faster than the Russian defense industry. It is possible that in India too.
  12. Max-xnumx
    +2
    11 October 2012 11: 43
    Thus, the Russian helicopter has a large specific power - about 2,4 hp. per tonne of normal take-off weight versus 1,9 for AH-64D

    - here the author mixed everything up
    1. Alex 241
      +1
      11 October 2012 15: 06
      a lot of mistakes, the gun is not land, but the aviation 9a4071k
      1. Windbreak
        +3
        11 October 2012 22: 57
        This is your blunder. All sources indicate that the Ka-50, Ka-52, MI-28N installed 2A42. http://www.tulamash.ru/prod_2a42.htm
        1. Alex 241
          -2
          11 October 2012 23: 03
          I won’t even argue. Learn the materiel. Which gun was the first: aviation GSh 1-30 (9a4071k) or land 2a42
          1. Windbreak
            +4
            11 October 2012 23: 25
            What is the difference which gun is the first? These are completely different guns for different carriers. 2A42 developer's site http://www.kbptula.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=144&Itemid=45

            9 & lang = ru and the manufacturer’s website http://www.tulamash.ru/prod_2a42.htm
            GSh-301, aka GSh 1-30 (9a4071k) http://www.kbptula.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=91&Itemid=449

            & lang = ru
      2. 0
        11 October 2012 23: 08
        Quote: Alex 241
        a lot of mistakes, the gun is not land, but the aviation 9a4071k

        About the gun, everything is correctly written in the article:
        namely 2A42, the same as on the BMP-2 (with selective nutrition, etc.)
        1. Alex 241
          -2
          11 October 2012 23: 11
          Tell me where did she come from on the BMP?
          1. +2
            11 October 2012 23: 17
            Not a clue with built-in weapons :(
            1. Alex 241
              0
              11 October 2012 23: 20
              I think we are arguing with you about butter, in principle, the abbreviation is not fundamental. good
              1. +3
                11 October 2012 23: 31
                Found. In the characteristics of the helicopter on the website of JSC "Rostvertol" http://www.rostvertolplc.ru/product/mi-28/version/mi-28n/#tabs-2

                The effective performance of combat missions is ensured by an armament complex consisting of:

                - stationary mobile gun installation NPPU-28 with a gun 2A42 caliber 30 mm;
                - guided missiles "Attack" (up to 16 missiles) and "Sagittarius" (up to 4 missiles);
                - 4 B8V20-A blocks (20 missiles each) for launching unguided missiles of the S-8 type of 80 mm caliber;
                - up to 4 B13L1 blocks with unguided S-13 type rockets of 122 mm caliber.
  13. Hon
    0
    11 October 2012 11: 56
    And why in the end put up for the contest MI28 and not Ka 52? Wanted to take advantage of the low price?
    1. +7
      11 October 2012 12: 56
      Because the Milevts in the Kremlin have a hairier hand.
      1. Hon
        +1
        11 October 2012 13: 16
        So initially, after all, Ka was presented to the contest. And why not both by the way?
  14. Vanek
    +1
    11 October 2012 12: 55
    Well, figs with them. Ours is at least prettier.
  15. +6
    11 October 2012 13: 16
    The "Apache" has one, and a very important (in my humble opinion) advantage over the brainchild of the KB. Mile (and not only his one). This is that he managed to prove himself in the war, and to show quite well ... I think that this circumstance also played into the hands of the American turntable ...

    And a completely rhetorical (and maybe not at all a question) - why Milevites (like their colleagues-competitors from the Kamov Design Bureau) did not want to test the "Night Hunter" in real combat conditions in the North Caucasus? .. Maybe then the scales of the Indian tender would have tipped in his favor ...
    1. Raven
      +2
      11 October 2012 13: 56
      participated in the conflict, do not tell. Amer bombed tanks from planes, artillery, but where is the real evidence? We all know how much they love to show off.
      1. +6
        11 October 2012 15: 21
        You definitely need tanks as the main sign of a real war and the main indicator of the reality of its evidence, dear Raven? .. I would like to remind you that the "Crocodile" (which is deservedly considered a fighting turntable) in Afghanistan and Chechnya also did not have heavy armored vehicles in its opponents ...
        But the Mi-28N did not even stand next to such a "no-tank gun". As they say - feel the difference. Moreover, this is present here and has a place to be ...
        So, in this and a specific case (without any offense) you laugh, dear Raven,
        1. Alex 241
          +4
          11 October 2012 15: 30
          About the high-profile victories of “Apache” something is also not particularly heard.
          1. Nubia2
            +7
            11 October 2012 15: 44
            And what kind of victory do you want?
            They began to actively participate in the first war in the bay ..
            further continued ..
            1. Alex 241
              -2
              11 October 2012 15: 49
              And 30 cars were damaged.
              1. +1
                11 October 2012 15: 54
                3, Sasha, 3. Not 30. From the actions of the enemy - 1. After that, the helicopters were actively modifying the results of the war.
                1. Alex 241
                  +1
                  11 October 2012 16: 02
                  I specified Zhen, 27, "COMBAT HELICOPTERS IN OPERATION IN IRAQ.
                  1. +1
                    11 October 2012 16: 37
                    Helicopters in the "Desert Storm" - 23, Sash, and from the fighting - 5. Of them 3 Apaches, from the fighting - 1. Or are you talking about the Iraqi war? If about her - then you are wrong here too. In total for 2012 losses - 15 cars.
                    1. Marine One
                      +1
                      12 October 2012 15: 58
                      First time used in Panama, in 1989.

                      During Desert Storm, the Apaches walked in the first wave before the air strike and punched openings in the Iraqi air defense. In the course of the Tempest ground phase, about 500 armored vehicles out of about 6000 destroyed MNF were assigned to the Apache account.

                      Israel, as far as I know, actively used Apaches to attack Hezbollah gangs and the like.
          2. Ortrega
            0
            13 October 2012 21: 26
            Quote: Alex 241
            About the high-profile victories of “Apache” something is also not particularly heard.

            But you can hear about the loud victories of the Mi-24 feel And the Mi-28, the same thing, only much more perfect good
        2. Raven
          -1
          12 October 2012 15: 51
          I meant those cases when the Americans showed a column of destroyed tanks and said that it was their 2 Apaches that were given.
          1. Marine One
            +1
            13 October 2012 01: 43
            There are some crooked recordings on YouTube mostly. Their number is also negligible as well as the records of real attacks of Russian "Crocodiles". However, if I say that I personally saw and touched armored vehicles broken up by the Apaches in 2003, will you believe me? smile
      2. Nubia2
        +4
        11 October 2012 15: 43
        Quote: Raiven
        but where is the real evidence?

        but where is the real evidence of the existence of the Americans?)))
        1. Raven
          +1
          12 October 2012 16: 59
          the consumption of a huge number of resources and in North America even shines at night
      3. +6
        11 October 2012 15: 50
        What to do if such conflicts now. Or are you all waiting for World War III? Apache participated in two Iraqi wars, in Libya, Afghanistan, the Second Lebanon and a bunch of other operations. Extremely efficient and multi-functional helicopter.
        1. Alex 241
          0
          11 October 2012 15: 58
          Zhenya, do not you think that this war has already begun, and is in full swing?
          1. +1
            11 October 2012 16: 39
            Yes FIG knows him, Sash. Going - not going. Such topics have been on a regular basis and around the world before. Now it’s easy, in connection with communications and means of communication, more and more globally.
    2. Ortrega
      +1
      13 October 2012 21: 23
      Quote: Chicot 1
      The "Apache" has one, and a very important (in my humble opinion) advantage over the brainchild of the KB. Mile (and not only his one). This is that he managed to prove himself in the war, and to show quite well ... I think that this circumstance also played into the hands of the American turntable ...

      The Mi-24 also has the same advantage, and the amers themselves are delighted with our helicopter; it, like a tractor, can stand in the hangar for a year, after which it is well lubricated and flew good
      This will not work with Amer’s cars, these are the words of an American pilot who learned to fly a captured MI-24.
      This pensioner avionics would be more serious, he would show hu hu hu feel
      Or will someone argue that the Mi-24 combat experience is less and better than the Apache?
      This is the first helicopter to be the winner in a battle with an airplane angry
      1. +3
        13 October 2012 22: 42
        Ortrega,
        A year, like a tractor, and where did you hear such nonsense? After a year, and no routine maintenance is done, this is a 100 percent wreck.
        1. Ortrega
          -1
          14 October 2012 20: 27
          Quote: igor67

          Ortrega,
          A year, like a tractor, and where did you hear such nonsense? After a year, and no routine maintenance is done, this is a 100 percent wreck.

          These are not my words, but an American pilot.
          Read here: http: //www.airforce.ru/content/daidzhest_1/126-mi-24-v-ssha/
          1. Ortrega
            0
            14 October 2012 20: 57
            Quote: Ortrega

            Quote: igor67

            Ortrega,
            A year, like a tractor, and where did you hear such nonsense? After a year, and no routine maintenance is done, this is a 100 percent wreck.
            These are not my words, but an American pilot.
            Read here: http: //www.airforce.ru/content/daidzhest_1/126-mi-24-v-ssha/

            Hind is quiet, smooth, powerful and fast. And in a conversation after the flight, Stayton and his fellow army pilot Steve Davidson made more admiring comments.
            "He is hardy like a tractor."
            "Put it in the barn for a year, then charge the batteries and you can fly right away. With our helicopters, this will not work."
            "It goes smoothly, just like 62's old Cadillac of the year."
            "Lubricate it well and you can fly it for hundreds of hours."
            Finally, Stayton said that in my opinion serves the highest honor. One day during the conversation, he leaned back and said, "You know, if I wanted to fly a helicopter just for pleasure, no doubt Hind would be at the very top of my choice."

            November 1998, XNUMX
            Share
    3. rjhgec55v
      0
      29 October 2012 15: 55
      1. These helicopters have long been successfully fighting in Chechnya, like the KA-50, the second regarding military reconciliation ... during the Amer invasion of Iraq, there was one show battle, the Amer. Command apparently having seen enough of the film)))) decided to carry out the attack a military base only by helicopters .. the guards of this base did not have MANPADS ... but the amers miscalculated this base was guarded by one of the best units of the Iraqi army, they didn’t drape and took up the defense, since they had DShK ... as a result, after 10 minutes in the air out of 30 helicopters was on force 3 and they made a decision yti..vse others were hit .. this is a real fight and it showed that amer.vertolety easily podbivaemy
  16. +2
    11 October 2012 15: 25
    Our helicopters lag behind not in the performance characteristics, but in PR and advertising ! It’s very difficult to cope with amers on the trading floor.
    1. Nubia2
      +5
      11 October 2012 15: 48
      And in quantity.
  17. Nubia2
    +4
    11 October 2012 15: 47
    Besides the fact that both cars are good and close to each other, Apache has a huge advantage ..
    There are many.
    EVERY US division includes an army aviation brigade. And in the composition of each (except the 101st Airborne Forces) such a brigade of 88 Apaches (in the 101st 160 cars)
    This does not consider the marine corps and other types of US forces.
    We have so many helicopters (of any type) for the division ..
    Yes, and now there are no divisions.
    1. Alex 241
      0
      11 October 2012 15: 56
      We and the Americans have completely different organizational structures, so it’s incorrect to compare .........
      1. +9
        11 October 2012 16: 17
        It’s incorrect to wear underwear over your head ... And here at least compare, at least do not compare, and the American has more attack helicopters per capita of the army population. There are simply more arithmetic ...
        And the fact that the divisions were demolished will still backfire and will respond next. There would be nothing good to adopt from behind the cordon, otherwise more and more butor like "McDonald's" and "Ivek" ...
      2. Nubia2
        0
        11 October 2012 18: 46
        everything is correct.
    2. Oleg Rosskiyy
      -2
      11 October 2012 21: 53
      Nubia2,
      If only there would be no interruption of fuel to them, otherwise they might not fly up in the event of a major conflict in the Middle East.
      1. Nubia2
        0
        12 October 2012 09: 55
        As with any other army with any other equipment.
        In the meantime, they fly quite well.
        More raid than ours in general and on each machine individually.
  18. AIvanA
    -3
    11 October 2012 16: 07
    Apparently, in the kickbacks, our delegation was not determined, it is a pity, of course, India is bought by a deliberately extremely expensive and not the highest quality product, well, God be their judge. Forgot Iraq and the dekhkan’s flintlock gun.
    1. +5
      11 October 2012 16: 13
      AIvanA,
      Or maybe the Indians are just taught a bitter experience with Gorshkov?
      1. Alex 241
        +3
        11 October 2012 16: 16
        I think a politically biased decision.
        1. -1
          11 October 2012 16: 30
          alex 241,
          not stupid because the Indians. At one time, they repaired the MI26 for the Indian air force and received from them both reclamation and a fine. For a trivial, simple carelessness. The machine came in for scheduled repairs, but in the acceptance certificate they indicated a crack in the chassis hub. but in English. they didn’t find a repair because the defective workers and workers didn’t know English. Why would they buy a crude car which, in the arms, was cut two times
        2. +1
          11 October 2012 16: 40
          I think, first of all, technically. Mi-28 lost on too many technical parameters.
          1. +1
            11 October 2012 16: 45
            Pimply,
            I agree, and for too long this machine went into the army, he wrote more than once here that in the late 80s mi28 stood at our airport for 25 years and how many of them riveted
            1. +1
              11 October 2012 16: 50
              The car is just so crude. Over time, I think, it will mature, and there will be a worthy example. But for now ...
  19. Alex 241
    +4
    11 October 2012 16: 52
    This "raw" machine has been in service, albeit in small quantities since 2009. MI28 lost in 20 parameters, the main all-weather application. And no matter what they say or minus, I repeat, this is a political decision, Russia is being squeezed out of the arms market ...
    1. +2
      11 October 2012 16: 57
      Sasha, that does not dismiss her "dampness". And she has been in service since the end of 2009. Russia is being squeezed out of the arms market because, according to a number of parameters, it lags behind.
      1. Alex 241
        +2
        11 October 2012 17: 01
        Yes Zhen with the year you're right, I missed, October 2009.
  20. Alarm bell
    -6
    11 October 2012 16: 53
    In Iraq, an old man shot down an Apache from an old Berdyanka.
    1. 0
      11 October 2012 16: 57
      Yeah. Favorite bedtime story
      1. Lech e-mine
        +3
        11 October 2012 17: 02
        Well, let's say not from BERDANKA but Kalash and DShK.
        1. Alex 241
          +1
          11 October 2012 17: 05
          In the 70s, a fact was officially recorded in Canada: a kid shot down a helicopter from a slingshot.
          1. Lech e-mine
            0
            11 October 2012 17: 08
            IT'S IN THE KINDERGARTEN - I trained on sparrows and accidentally hit the APACH flying past (I SAW PERSONALLY) laughing
        2. 0
          11 October 2012 17: 11
          Leha e-mine,
          Well, they beat 24 with dshk and in Afghanistan, it is not protected from the bottom, only the side and windshields, and about 6 of them we made a sieve
          1. -1
            11 October 2012 17: 47
            Correct: they made a sieve with Kalashigor67,
          2. Insurgent
            -1
            11 October 2012 21: 50
            With the bottom mi 24 is very well protected
            1. +1
              12 October 2012 01: 03
              Quote: Insurgent
              well protected

              from the bottom at 24ki from the left is the ICS and the shtv unit 20, if I am not mistaken, from the right is the cartridge box, a car with a broken bottom and control unit came to us, the pilot, we were told, died, 86 or 87
          3. +1
            12 October 2012 00: 02
            Quote: igor67
            ... and about 6 mirages the sieve was made

            For two years of Afghanistan, a cloud of hours flew over both MI-8 and MI-6. I have never heard of any sieve from Mi-6. It’s not that it was impossible to penetrate it (it’s just that easy), but simply helicopters flew (and planes too) at maximum altitude and began to decline directly in the area of ​​the airfield. It was possible to shoot at the helicopter efficiently only near the airfield, but and in response it was possible to get immediately from the warriors stationed at the airport. Mi-6s usually flew 2-3 times (never alone) and often covered themselves with a pair of Mi-24s, which, again, simply wouldn’t give a shot at a helicopter with impunity.
            By the way, until 1984, I had not heard of cases where Dushmans would fire at all on Mi-6, since he took local ones on board, if possible.
            1. Alex 241
              0
              12 October 2012 00: 04
              Did you fly before the stingers?
              1. +1
                12 October 2012 00: 25
                Quote: Alex 241
                Did you fly before the stingers?

                I think the main reason that they began to pay well for a downed helicopter.
            2. +3
              12 October 2012 00: 59
              I don’t know, dear, Mi6 was being repaired, as well as Mi24 with our RF 21653, all cars from Afghanistan were 100% replaced with 6x bottoms. They were riveted, there was no living space. The underground was constantly grain, and Ashgabat vodkaBad_gr, I have not heard of cases where spooks would shoot at the Mi-6 and how, so on some Mi6 machines they put TV cameras: one was in the tail boom and echoing on a pole in the cargo compartment, and on one more machine they installed "ears "on the exhaust, but it's all against the stingers, can I give you another example if you want?
              1. Alex 241
                +1
                12 October 2012 01: 04
                After the stingers began to fly, they began to fly lower ....
              2. +2
                12 October 2012 22: 15
                And in what years did the heavily-shot Mi-6s come across?
                I think that the Mi-6 could get hit by bullets only when it was not fulfilling its tasks: after all, it was a truck (or tanker) and with me (1983-1985) it flew cleanly from the airfield to the airfield (cargo, fuel delivery).

                I came across a Mi-6 without wings (there were latches in the places where the wings were attached) - did you get such a repair?

                By the way, when I was in Puli-Khumri in 1984, an Afghan Su-7b entered an emergency landing and rammed a cargo Mi-6. The cargo burned down along with the crew (6 people), and the two Mi-6-bunkers that were supposed to fly with him - the body was undermining fragments with fragments (although not very much).
                1. +2
                  13 October 2012 20: 48
                  Bad_gr,
                  I started with 85, their repair, and tankers, inside two tanks and without planes, but why did they dismantle them? We set new ones anyway
  21. Lech e-mine
    +1
    11 October 2012 16: 55
    THIS MACHINE has a WEAK WEAPON GUIDING SYSTEM, HOWEVER, AN ARMOR DEFENSE IS BETTER THAN APACH.
    1. Alex 241
      +1
      11 October 2012 17: 21
      Alex, what is the weakness of the system?
      1. Lech e-mine
        +5
        11 October 2012 17: 30
        As you know from the posted entries on the Internet on the combat use of detection and surveillance systems, the difference is very big not in our favor (poor contrast of the object, fuzzy image, it is impossible to switch from the imager mode to the body or radar at the touch of a button). This does not allow real reaction to change the combat situation.
        1. Alex 241
          0
          11 October 2012 17: 36
          Alexey, thermal and radio channels, two independent systems. Thermal systems are used for a hidden approach to the target, not pretending to be radar radiation.
  22. +2
    11 October 2012 17: 28
    Our 28 simply asks for UAV companions of radar target designation: then the pilots will be able to hang over the terrain and shoot a rocket directly from behind the shelter, receiving information about the situation from the drone. After analyzing this information and launching the Attack on top of hills, trees, etc., it passes the drone a target for pointing missiles at it, perhaps participating in television guidance, if necessary. Complete safety.
    1. +3
      11 October 2012 17: 31
      It is already implemented in Apache Yes
    2. Alex 241
      -2
      11 October 2012 17: 42
      Difficult and inefficient.
      1. +2
        11 October 2012 18: 15
        But this is your statement, Sasha, debatable.
        1. Alex 241
          0
          11 October 2012 18: 16
          Arguing !!!!!!!!!!!!
          1. +6
            11 October 2012 18: 24
            Well, at least in that it dramatically expands the capabilities of the helicopter and has already been implemented in the third Apache. The helicopter gets a completely different picture of the battle. In fact, the helicopter receives additional tentacles with which it can reach one or another point without putting itself at risk.
            1. Alex 241
              -1
              11 October 2012 18: 29
              Any chain is not stronger than its weakest link. The weakest link of the UAV. What type of UAV will be used? The combat radius of its action? The time of barrage over the target?
              1. +4
                11 October 2012 18: 34
                Sasha. This is not so important. Of the open information there, UAVs are not one type. The main thing is that all information is displayed directly.
                1. Alex 241
                  0
                  11 October 2012 18: 38
                  Eugene, just a respected TECTOR wrote about the interception of the target illumination signal, etc. I am categorically against. UAVs are used as a scout for collecting and processing information, then the turntables work in the on-board search mode.
                  1. +4
                    11 October 2012 19: 05
                    No, I in this case spoke about the very development of the idea of ​​a UAV-helicopter bunch, for this, IMHO, the future. Like a bunch of UAV-plane
                    1. Alex 241
                      +2
                      11 October 2012 19: 08
                      Eugene agrees, there should be a single integrated battlefield management system, but I think it's silly to delegate the execution of functions to any component. Everyone is doing his own thing.
                      1. +5
                        11 October 2012 19: 31
                        Sash, this is just expanding the possibilities. For example, to simultaneously hit from different points
                      2. Alex 241
                        0
                        11 October 2012 19: 34
                        Zhen, I meant that you should not delegate unusual functions, the helicopter will not be engaged in intercepting air targets.
                      3. +1
                        11 October 2012 19: 38
                        Air targets are different, agree wink

                        Now, in general, there is a reassessment of the capabilities and principles of using this or that weapon. For example, a tank. With helicopters - the same tramp.
                      4. Alex 241
                        +1
                        11 October 2012 19: 41
                        Zhenya, I wrote an interception drinks and the principle, in my opinion, has been unchanged since the time a person picked up a club: to destroy the enemy.
    3. 0
      11 October 2012 18: 44
      For this, new missiles are needed, and not what is now being hung on it.
  23. +2
    11 October 2012 17: 40
    Actually, it was clear that India would not buy our helicopters, but would buy Apaches at the beginning of the year. And everything has been discussed for a long time, conclusions have been made and are being corrected. But bad luck, one of the magazine cameras is again presenting yesterday's news instead of hot pies. Apparently someone needs it.
  24. BruderV
    +5
    11 October 2012 17: 44
    There is not a word in the article about the fact that Mishka lost due to less accurate shooting with the entire range of weapons and unsatisfactory applicability at night and in bad weather compared to the Amer. Well at least they pointed out the main thing - the impossibility of firing guided missiles on the "fire and forget" principle without constant target illumination. In the meantime, Mishka will illuminate it with any cannon ZSU such as the German Cheetah or our Carapace or even Shilka will usher in the threshing floor and powerful armor will not help, and the Apache, hiding in the folds of the terrain, will remain invulnerable. So in the fight against mechanized columns, Mi Apache is not a competitor, that's all.
    1. Alex 241
      0
      11 October 2012 17: 51
      The shooting results are assumed to be identical for both helicopters. Read the characteristics, MI can maneuver, and not hang motionless target, when illuminating the target.
      1. +4
        11 October 2012 18: 15
        However, he must highlight it.
  25. +16
    11 October 2012 17: 47
    Well, how many topics "with a beard" can be raised, this is not news for a long time, but most of the patriots on this site and everyone believes in our technology, well, we cannot have all the best, especially after so many years of the collapse of the military-industrial complex, and which of them is cooler time will tell, of course I'm for a night hunter.
    1. +1
      11 October 2012 21: 17
      When our manufacturers exhibited MI, they finally read the terms of the tender. The very fact that the car reached the final speaks of compliance with the stated requirements. But this machine has an indisputable advantage, the machines of this manufacturer have long been operated in India and when the MI-28N was submitted, the entire experience of previous cooperation. "gregor6549" correctly noted "Apache today has a huge advantage in the fact that he is an integral element of a unified information system of the battlefield or simpler ACCS. That is, he can rely not only on information provided by his own sensors but can receive information from external systems in real time (ie target designation, warning of threats, etc.) "... just for this to manifest itself, India needs to purchase another 2-3 billion equipment. from Apache, given the long cooperation for MI full implementation, everything is already there in India.
      1. -1
        12 October 2012 12: 59
        Quote: Strashila
        just so that this manifests itself to India by another 2-3 billion.

        And many countries are ready to sell modern ASUV? )))
    2. Ortrega
      -1
      14 October 2012 22: 00
      Quote: sergant89
      Well, how many topics "with a beard" can be raised, this is not news for a long time, but most of the patriots on this site and everyone believes in our technology, well, we cannot have all the best, especially after so many years of the collapse of the military-industrial complex, and which of them is cooler time will tell, of course I'm for a night hunter.

      KOSOVA WAR 1999.
      At least five American turntables were shot down, carrying about a hundred special forces on board. A few more Apache helicopters were destroyed by fire from the ground. One AN-64D found its death in a battle from Mi-24V angry .
      And this is an older brother bully Mi-28go.
      Would give the night hunter to show himself, would fly on a business trip to Syria fellow , everything would fall into place.
      And so what's the point of shaking the air in vain feel .
      Clitorsha howled belay when she suspected that they want to send our Mi-35s to Syria, however they are afraid or fear lol
  26. +4
    11 October 2012 17: 48
    Thus, Chain Gan requires an external power supply to operate the automation. As practice shows, such a system is viable and effective, however, in some countries it is believed that the aircraft gun should be "self-sufficient" and not require any external energy sources. The barrel armament of the Mi-28N helicopter is the product of this very concept.

    And the electric start, excuse me, what does it work from?
    1. Alex 241
      +3
      11 October 2012 17: 56
      From the botnet, 27 volts through the contactor.
      1. +1
        11 October 2012 18: 06
        Well. This is me to the fact that the self-sufficiency of any air gun can not speak
        1. Alex 241
          -1
          11 October 2012 18: 08
          This is more of a utopia, even if pyrorecharge is used, you still need external power from the flight network, and even more so to change the rate of fire.
  27. +8
    11 October 2012 18: 10
    With, in principle, equal combat capabilities of the considered helicopters, Apache today has a huge advantage in the fact that it is an integral element of a unified information system of the battlefield or, more simply, ACCU. Those. he can rely not only on the information that his own sensors provide, but can receive information from external systems in real time (i.e. target designation, warning of threats, etc.) At one time, such an exchange of information with attack aircraft (helicopters , attack aircraft, UAVs, etc.) was implemented in the automated control system by the Udar strike aviation units and then in the Etalon automated control system. Whether such functions are provided for in modern Russian ACCS and when they will be implemented is difficult to say. If we talk about which helicopter is better, then I am in favor of the two-seater "Black Shark", which at one time was diligently spread by both the Milians and their foreign competitors, tk. the coaxial scheme of the Shark could put an end to the longitudinal scheme of combat helicopters. And yet, the layout of the Shark quite allows her to put a radar with a phased antenna array in her nose cone, after which both MI28 and Apache can be excluded from the lists of competitors of this "fish" altogether. Of course the review will be sectorial and not circular, but why would a helicopter have a circular view. He would have to deal with the targets in the firing sector, and a radar with a phased array or AFAR does it best. Yes, and it guides missiles at a target through several channels simultaneously. And with rounding the terrain, the problem is simplified. But I was dreaming a bit, although dreaming, they say, is not harmful
  28. BruderV
    +2
    11 October 2012 18: 20
    After the story of Vikramaditya boilers, I will be generally surprised if the Indians ever order anything from us.
  29. Zlu
    Zlu
    0
    11 October 2012 18: 23
    striking outward similarities !!!
    1. BruderV
      0
      11 October 2012 18: 29
      Just the problems of the defense industry system, for the first time chtoli? Either we will send used planes to Algeria, then we can use shoals with maintenance of equipment. Here is the customer who thinks who better to pay.
  30. Fox
    +1
    11 October 2012 18: 30
    and if you do not sell to the Indians mi 28n ...? let them go crazy ... let them eat Amerovskoye-Pakistan should be armed, and then compare helicopters, tanks ...
  31. +3
    11 October 2012 18: 36
    Hindus are practical people and prefer to have a spent tit in their hands now than an unworked crane tomorrow. The Apache has been under construction for a long time and has undergone combat testing in many hot spots where completely modern air defense systems and no less modern ground targets were used. Further, Apaches, like all other US military equipment, are usually exported as a complete set, i.e. with all the "bells and whistles" necessary for maintenance and repairs, as well as with a solid warranty and post-warranty service. An important role is played by Vespma, the effective armament of the Apache, which was also tested in a real combat situation. And finally, the technologies and culture of assembling the helicopter and its components. Recently on TV they showed the process of assembling the Apache at a serial plant. The comparison is clearly not in favor of the serial plants of the Russian aviation industry.
    1. Alex 241
      +5
      11 October 2012 18: 42
      Gregory is getting easier. India enters into a coalition with Afghanistan against Pakistan. And what, before purchasing MI8,24,26, did our technical culture suit them?
    2. +3
      13 October 2012 00: 21
      Quote: gregor6549
      Recently on TV they showed the Apache assembly process in a serial plant. The comparison so far is clearly not in favor of the serial plants of the Russian aviation industry.

      Yes, I would not say so clearly
  32. +6
    11 October 2012 18: 36
    This sample is out of competition!
    1. Ortrega
      +1
      14 October 2012 22: 10
      Quote: Trevis
      This sample is out of competition!

      Krasava, I didn’t really want to be in his sight good
      Here he looks more like a shark than a crocodile.
    2. +2
      15 October 2012 23: 20
      Cabin Ka-52
  33. 0
    11 October 2012 18: 37
    Hindus are practical people and prefer to have a spent tit in their hands now than an unworked crane tomorrow. The Apache has been under construction for a long time and has undergone combat testing in many hot spots where completely modern air defense systems and no less modern ground targets were used. Further, Apaches, like all other US military equipment, are usually exported as a complete set, i.e. with all the "bells and whistles" necessary for maintenance and repairs, as well as with a solid warranty and post-warranty service. An important role is played by Vespma, the effective armament of the Apache, which was also tested in a real combat situation. And finally, the technologies and culture of assembling the helicopter and its components. Recently on TV they showed the process of assembling the Apache at a serial plant. The comparison is clearly not in favor of the serial plants of the Russian aviation industry.
  34. +6
    11 October 2012 19: 05
    The theme of KA-50 was in vain covered. If in the West they believe that a crew of two pilots is better than one, this is their business, but not an axiom.
    1. Diesel
      +1
      12 October 2012 20: 33
      I agree! It’s just more logical to contrast Apache and ka50
  35. schapchits
    +3
    11 October 2012 19: 32
    Quote: lesnik.
    The theme of KA-50 was in vain covered. If in the West they believe that a crew of two pilots is better than one, this is their business, but not an axiom.

    It's not about the west. It’s just that the training of pilots is not the same as in the Soviet years, one already can’t cope
    1. Alex 241
      +5
      11 October 2012 19: 38
      You are wrong. The technical saturation of a helicopter is different, therefore a pilot operator is needed.
    2. Diesel
      +1
      12 October 2012 20: 32
      In Chechnya, everyone did an excellent job ..
  36. +3
    11 October 2012 20: 15
    It is interesting who knows how justified the use of NPPU on the Mi-28 is, in the sense of firing accuracy off course angles, with the rather large / 40-50 kN / magnitude of the recoil force of the gun 2A42.
    1. Alex 241
      +3
      11 October 2012 20: 26
      At a distance of 1000m, falling into a square of 1.5x1.5 meters.
      1. BruderV
        +2
        11 October 2012 20: 36
        With a single fire or burst? If it falls into such a square from 1000m, then what square should it fall at the declared maximum effective range of 4000m? There will be clearly even larger sizes of the tank, not to mention the infantryman. That is, this range is paper?
      2. +3
        11 October 2012 21: 19
        But with all this (according to open sources), the accuracy of the Mi-28N is 3 times lower than that of the Apache, and 50 times lower than that of the Ka-52/4 ...
        This is a kag-be to the fact that a fixed artillery system on a helicopter is supposedly a minus, and a rotary type is agrofegenny plus ...

        For those who still walk in the supporters of rotary artillery systems certainly located in the bow of the helicopter, I advise you to look at how the high-rate fire from the GS-2-30 mounted on the Mi-24P is fired ... And then mentally shift the recoil force when firing into different positions in azimuth and pointing angle and figure out how this will affect the stability and controllability of the machine ... But 2A42 is also a solid aggregate. And the return from him is probably comparable with GS-2-30 ...
        So, we can conclude that the overwhelming majority of cases, the Mi-28N will fire from the artillery system at its initial position, aiming by fuselage maneuver ...
        So, the conclusion begs - and why the hell did you have to fool all this NPPU together with its drives, sleeves, pipelines, complicate the aiming system? .. Is it really just to effectively rotate the barrel 30 mm in front of the cameras of journalists? .. It turns out, so ...
        1. Alex 241
          +1
          11 October 2012 23: 06
          The return of GSh-1-30 is 9 tons, of course, the disturbances are not weak from the two barrels. But I think the gun should be on a turntable of such a class.
  37. +4
    11 October 2012 21: 17
    the mi-28 has no experience in combat use, and the reviews from the parts are negative, I have not heard about the ka-52, praise the new modifications of the mi-8
    1. Alex 241
      +3
      11 October 2012 23: 07
      About MI-8amtsh very well respond.
    2. rjhgec55v
      +1
      29 October 2012 16: 02
      Chechnya, they’ve been flying for 5 years .. only excellent reviews
  38. exe hacker
    +2
    11 October 2012 22: 03
    mi 28 n weapons of global war, where you need cheap workers, bastard T-34, the car is perfectly armored, all systems are duplicated, i.e. the survival rate is high, and the opportunities are high !!!!
    Plus, the non-joint scheme is easier to control, good continuity from the MI 24, pilots do not need to retrain for a more complex joint scheme of the "commanding" to 52. There are a lot of chances to survive in this helicopter, but the fact that it is not as streamlined as to 52, so this has its own charm, brutality, so to speak, a range rover, among helicopters !!!!!! another workhorse of mi 35, new engines and avionics have done their job !!!!! we need such machines, you can buy a lot of them in comparison from to 52!
    I live in Rostov-on-Don, every day I see these cars run-in, I am glad they are amazing, and not too noisy!
    Rosvertol itself is a very modern enterprise, and if not the governor of the region and the director of the plant at one time, the machine would not have seen the light at all in iron !!
    By the way, as a long time ago, there was an article on military excursion about a tour of the factory, workshops where it is cleaner than in the hospital, can not be compared with Kamovsky, with all due respect to 52
    1. legleleg
      -1
      12 October 2012 14: 55
      I didn’t understand why you were minus
  39. +1
    11 October 2012 22: 17
    Quote: exe-hacker
    Plus a non-co-op scheme is easier to manage

    Amazing And I thought that for a turn.
    1. exe hacker
      -4
      11 October 2012 22: 20
      the biggest minus of the coostal system is the ability to lob the blades under certain conditions .., mi 28 is the only combat helicopter in the world making a dead loop
      1. +4
        11 October 2012 22: 30
        I guess I will disappoint you - but this is not so. Many helicopters are also capable of this.

        1. Nubia2
          -1
          12 October 2012 10: 13
          For
          exe-hacker this video is hardly an argument))))
          It is said that the 28th is the only one and that's it !!)))
        2. wolverine7778
          +1
          14 October 2012 12: 28
          Oh, how Apache rumbles like a kitten on his knees good
      2. 0
        12 October 2012 07: 00
        Ka-50
        [media = http: //img.mail.ru/r/video2/player_v2.swf? orig = 2 & movieSrc = mail / ac10 / _myvi
        deo / 1 & host = video.mail.ru & contentHost = content.video.mail.ru]
      3. 0
        12 October 2012 07: 02
        Dead loop on KA-50
      4. +4
        12 October 2012 08: 48
        Dead loop KA 50
  40. BruderV
    -1
    11 October 2012 22: 31
    Quote: exe-hacker
    mi 28 n weapons of global war, where workers need inexpensive horses, bastard T-34,


    As always in history, people prepare for past wars. Also, France in World War II was perfectly prepared for the Perova World meat grinder, and then tanks appeared. What exactly should the global war begin? Mi-28 is an inexpensive horse? Well yes. Do not share the numbers? Or maybe more complex treatises on the labor and knowledge-intensive production, especially in comparison with Apache? And then after all, with a finger in the sky, and I can.
  41. exe hacker
    +1
    12 October 2012 00: 14
    BruderV,
    Quote: BruderV
    Mi-28 is an inexpensive horse? Well yes. Do not share the numbers?

    about 250 million rubles (not the latest data yet)

    the cost of one ka 52 ~ 1055 million rubles

    Global I mean World War, in such conditions high-tech weapons may be useless or out of order, "shovels" will go into battle
    1. BruderV
      +2
      12 October 2012 10: 58
      Did you get the prices from Wikiperdia? And the fact that the older Mi-35 has a price of $ 12,5 million does not bother? Well, judging by your logic, the Mi-28 is not more complicated than a shovel? You carry the cliché about the T-34, which the whole country, including schoolchildren, collected at primitive machines, simplifying everything as much as possible, removing even the "extra headlight" on the most complex aviation equipment. And in aviation, as they say, there are no trifles. Superfluous devices cannot be removed; tolerances in hundredths of a millimeter cannot be violated. What kind of schoolchildren are there at the machines? In aviation, the high cost and laboriousness of the slikh is paid off by the resulting combat effectiveness.
  42. tambu
    -5
    12 October 2012 01: 49
    shit (sorry burst out) compared shit with cabbage .... and shit is clearly not domestic ....
  43. Karmin
    -1
    12 October 2012 04: 15
    The Mi-28N is an excellent helicopter for fighting insurgents of various stripes (for warriors in Afghanistan, for example, where, bells and whistles, Apache, are redundant), unfortunately, it is not suitable for a war with a well-armed enemy.
    And the Ka-52 only slightly (the presence of a radar) surpasses the Mi-28N, and even then until the Mi-28N receives a radar in the following modification - Mi-28NM
  44. +1
    12 October 2012 08: 59
    Or maybe this is the case:

    "... It is possible that the fatal for the Mi-28N was the participation in the strategic command and staff exercises at the Gorokhovets training ground near Nizhny Novgorod, when the helicopter crashed during the practical firing. As the investigation found out, the reason for this was the ingress of powder gases from the launching unguided rockets into engine air intake. Because of what it "choked" and stalled. And only thanks to the design of the machine: shock-absorbing chassis and an armored capsule in which the pilots are able to withstand an overload of 15g, the pilots remained alive after the fall and got out of the wrecked car even without bruises However, for the Indians it was most likely not so important in comparison with the fact that the helicopter fell, performing the main maneuver for itself .... "
  45. Nubia2
    -1
    12 October 2012 10: 19
    Both cars are pretty close and good.
    Indeed, both can be called the best of their kind.
    but, if their combat capabilities differ slightly, then in one Apache wins unconditionally.
    They are made incommensurably more than 28x.
    And besides - it has been actively used for many years.
    And this allows you to identify shortcomings, modify if necessary.
  46. exe hacker
    +3
    12 October 2012 11: 43
    And yet, the car is at least relatively safe, in three incidents with the Mi28n only one pilot died, and only because of his courage and love for the car, trying to save her falling from a height of 400 meters!
    By the way, more than one accident was not the fault of the machine itself, and as we have already said about the exercises of the Gorokhovets training center, I will quote the so unloved BruderV wikipedia, "During the demonstration exercises, the Mi-28N helicopter fired a NAR in hovering mode, which triggered the surge of the engines. The helicopter made an emergency landing, hitting one landing gear in a trench, which led to overturning of the vehicle and was accompanied by the destruction of the main rotor and tail boom. Subsequently, the helicopter was delivered on a Mi-26 suspension to the Rosvertol plant and restored. Shown to journalists in April 2011. The helicopter was restored under a separate contract. "
    Shooting NAR in hover mode is prohibited by the regulations that were violated!
  47. BruderV
    -3
    12 October 2012 12: 03
    Yes, they are never close. The Mi-28 has incorporated all the perversity of the views of the Soviet-Russian Ministry of Defense on the general cost reduction and utilization, and is essentially a further inert and illogical development of the Mi-24. Of course, engines, reservations and crew rescue systems have improved. As for weapons, consider everything remains in place. Need a more powerful gun? Get off the BMP and put it on a rotating turret, cheap and cheerful, why develop a special one? Worse accuracy of shooting and ridiculous ammunition, for which you must constantly fly to the base, which does not allow you to work effectively both in infantry and armored vehicles? Well, these are trifles. Hellfire-type missiles fired and forgotten? But you see how much they are purchased from the amers in the army. Well, the fact that if you need constant illumination of the target with a laser is a great risk of losing the car itself, having entered into fire contact with the enemy, you can somehow forget, given that the car is cheaper than Apache. Right? On Apaches put full-fledged Sidewinder aviation missiles as on fighters with appropriate noise immunity and the probability of hitting a target? It’s not expensive, you have to borrow the Igloo from the infantry and put it on a helicopter. And the fact that it is rejected even by primitive thermal traps is not so important. So, in the end, we have that Apache is an ideal fighter for armored vehicles, a good anti-aircraft defense, capable of shooting down even low-flying fighters, and an excellent means of supporting infantry especially at night, given the low noise level, the presence of high-quality advanced thermal imagers, night vision devices, the possibility of control from an UAV, etc. And for what tasks the Mi-28 was created is not very clear. Its capabilities against armored vehicles are no higher than those of the latest versions of the Mi-24, you won’t be able to work the guns with infantry with a small ammunition load, and there are no more air defense capabilities than the soldiers with the Igla. So is the low cost of the resulting combat effectiveness worth it? I'm a patriot, but all of the above makes me think
    1. Belo_ticketnik
      +1
      12 October 2012 16: 58
      In addition to guns, the use of NURSs is implied. They are better for infantry than a cannon.
      Interestingly, do you realize the whole difficulty of designing a turret for a helicopter or was it just written like that?
    2. Ratibor12
      -1
      13 October 2012 15: 59
      Quote: BruderV
      incorporated all the depravity of the views of the Soviet-Russian Ministry of Defense on the general cost reduction and utilization, and in fact is a further inert and illogical development of the Mi-24.


      The perversity of such an opinion on the cheapening of the view on the utilization of essence is an inert logic ...

      As the practice of fighting in the Middle East has shown, the Mi-24 is an excellent helicopter. During the Iran-Iraq war "... over eight years of armed conflict in 56 air battles between helicopters, including ten between Mi-24 and Sea Cobras, ten Sea Cobras and six Mi-24s were shot down. .. "
      In the battles between the heirs of the Mi-24 and the Cobra, the Mi-28 and the Apache, the alignment will be the same.
      1. BruderV
        0
        13 October 2012 20: 32
        Yes, of course the same. I’m probably not even going to ask about the characteristics of the Igla missile from the infantry MANPADS in comparison with the Sidewinder missile on Apache. Mi-24 was created in the USSR when there was a full-fledged defense industry, in which most of the country's money was invested. So that now on the ruins of the Soviet military-industrial complex they have gathered something comparable to modern American technology, you can convince me ad infinitum. I recently worked at a factory manufacturing aircraft instruments, and I no longer believe in bedtime stories. In terms of guided weapons and electric weapons, the Mi-28 is at best comparable to the base version of Apache's 80s.
    3. +2
      14 October 2012 22: 03
      Quote: BruderV
      The Mi-28 has incorporated all the depravity of the views of the Soviet-Russian Ministry of Defense on the general cheapening and utilitarianization and, in fact, is a further inert and illogical development of the Mi-24.

      Well yes, of course, the floor of the world is exploited by the Mi-24,

      his combat experience was taken into account in the creation of the Mi-28, and this combat experience of his, the experience of the most belligerent helicopter in the world, is called "perverse views."

      Did you understand what you said?
      1. BruderV
        -1
        14 October 2012 23: 12
        Well, what does the Mi-24 have to do with it? Like, now I have to look at this card and hide in horror at the baseboard, realizing my errors)? Especially any Angolans and Mozambique were lucky. They sold equipment to them on credit (read for nothing), which they still do not pay))) If you do not know how to read, study, but do not understand what is written, so there is no need to show it. Especially for you on fingers I will explain my position. If the Mi-24 were supplied with modern electronic equipment and weapons comparable to Apache, then this would be much more effective than fencing a garden with a bmp gun, armored capsule and crew rescue systems. And since we don’t have modern electronics and apparently never will, because until we reach their current level they will have cyborgs, you have to collective farm all sorts of other options with increased armor, inevitable increase in engine power in this regard, the installation of a more powerful gun with dubious ultimate efficiency and so on.
        1. 0
          15 October 2012 00: 12
          Quote: BruderV
          .... If modern electronic equipment and weapons comparable to Apache were delivered to the Mi-24, this would be much more effective than fencing a garden with a bmp gun, armored capsule and crew rescue systems .....

          And if normal armor was put on Apache, then he could not hide in the ditches in the distance, but accompany the columns, covering people and equipment from ambushes, work directly on the battlefield, visually determining where his own, and where strangers, and if necessary evacuate people under enemy fire.
          On electronics.
          Cabin Mi-35. Not super-duper, but modern electronics have enough
        2. +1
          15 October 2012 00: 16
          Quote: BruderV
          .... If modern electronic equipment and weapons comparable to Apache were delivered to the Mi-24, this would be much more effective than fencing a garden with a bmp gun, armored capsule and crew rescue systems .....

          And if normal armor was put on Apache, then he could not hide in the ditches in the distance, but accompany the columns, covering people and equipment from ambushes (which from afar you might not notice), work directly on the battlefield, visually determining where your where are the strangers, and if necessary evacuate people under enemy fire.
          1. BruderV
            +1
            15 October 2012 00: 30
            As for from afar, not to notice the posts below, read about 127-fold optics on Apaches and thermal imagers, which even allow you to see traces from several kilometers. It’s as if you’re trying to understand that hiding along the ditches is part of a contactless war, when you have the opportunity to destroy the intruder when he doesn’t see you and doesn’t even know about your existence and is simply physically unable to answer. And count this zero loss. And yes, Apache accompanies the columns, provides support to ground units and even flies ahead of the advancing mechanized columns, without hiding in the ditches, and much more. Well, evacuating people is already the extra mass dimensions needed. Why when there are special transporters, the same Black Hawk.
            1. +1
              15 October 2012 19: 22
              Quote: BruderV
              ... You’re kind of trying to understand that hiding along the ditches is a part of a contactless war, when you have the opportunity to destroy the intruder when he doesn’t see you and doesn’t even know about your existence and is simply physically unable to answer. And consider this zero loss .....

              And who argues that shooting from afar at the enemy when he does not see you is bad? Another question is that a single shooting at a target that was spotted in good optics is not at all the same thing as shooting directly above the battlefield, when they indicate themselves as colored smoke, and where the enemy is located they indicate from the rocket launcher.
              By the way, they put good optics on our modern turntables and, accordingly, add the ability to work from far away, but in fact our options remain to work under enemy fire.
              Mi-35
              1. +1
                15 October 2012 20: 08
                Quote: Bad_gr
                and they put good optics on our modern turntables

    4. rjhgec55v
      +1
      29 October 2012 16: 08
      the number of rounds does not particularly affect the battlefield, given that they will still shoot at 5 pieces, a larger number in the queue and a gun to the dump ... this is shot in a movie for 10 minutes ...
      Why put 1000 rounds when you can put the extra 2 missiles ..
      Example A-18 Amer attack aircraft ... almost never use a gun since it is inefficient .. yes the show when it shoots and in reality the dispersion is catastrophic ... it also doesn’t pull against tanks
  48. Kir
    -2
    12 October 2012 15: 18
    By the way, about the cannon-2A42 it has a selective power supply, I have not heard of the Apache cannon. now, according to other sources, helpers, including "Hellfire-II" (as of 1997), have a launch range of 6! against the same Vortex with a range of 8 km. (for Ka50-52), now the Ka-50 climb rate is 10m / s at an altitude of 2500m (for Ka-52 8/2500), for Apache 64A12.7 / 0m-64D 15.7 / 0 static ceilings Ka-50/52 (with TVZ-117VMA engines) 4000/33600, AH-64A 3060 / AH-64D 3075 (T700-GE-701 / T700 - GE-701C), dynamic 50/52 5500 against 64A 6400 | 64D 41175
    1. Kir
      -1
      12 October 2012 16: 00
      I apologize should be read instead of 4000 / 33600-4000 / 3600
  49. -1
    12 October 2012 17: 05
    The main difference is that.
    Apache Units produced >1800 (June 2012)
    MI-28 Units produced 64 (June 2012)

    Maybe we will continue to praise ???? stop
  50. Blat
    0
    12 October 2012 18: 05
    TTX family AH-64
    AH-64A[19] AH-64D[1] AH-64D Longbow[1]
    Technical specifications
    Crew 2
    Length with rotating screws, m 17,76
    The diameter of the rotor, m 14,63
    The diameter of the tail rotor, m 2,79
    Height, m ​​3,84 [1. 1] 4,66[1. 2] 4,95[1. 3]
    Area swept by the rotor, m² 168,11
    Chassis base, m 10,59
    Chassis track, m 2,03
    Empty weight, kg 4 660 5
    Normal take-off weight, kg[1. 4] 6 650 6
    Maximum takeoff weight, kg 8 000 9[525. 10]
    Fuel mass, kg 1 108 + 2 712 in PTB
    Fuel volume, l 1 421 + 4 × 871 in PTB
    Engine 2 × TVD General Electric
    T700-GE-701 T700-GE-701C
    Power, hp (kW) 2 × 1 (695) 1 × 270 (2)
    Flight characteristics
    Maximum allowable speed, km/h 365
    Maximum speed, km/h 300 293 265
    Practical range, km 690 [1. 6] 482 407
    Ferry range, km 2 020
    Flight duration 3,57 h[1. 7] 2h 44m / 8h[1. 8]
    Practical ceiling, m 6 100 6 400 5 915
    Static ceiling, m[1. 9] 4 / 085 3 / 100 4 / 570
    Maximum rate of climb, m/s 12,27
    Vertical rate of climb, m/s 12,7 7,5
    Disc load, kg/m² 48,6 62,1
    Maximum operational overload +3,5/-1,0 g +3,5/-0,5 g
    and this is mi-28
    Technical specifications
    Crew: 2 person
    Passengers: 3 people [32]
    Fuselage length: 17,05 m
    Height: 3,82
    Width with wing consoles 5,88 m
    Main rotor diameter: 17,2 m
    The diameter of the tail rotor: 3,85 m
    Weight:
    empty: 8095 kg [35]
    normal take-off weight: 10900 kg [22]
    maximum take-off weight: 12100 kg [22]
    Mass of payload: 2300 kg
    Weight Fuel: 1500 kg
    Power point:
    Engine type: turboshaft
    Model: Motor Sich VK-2500-02 [22]
    Power: [36]
    in emergency mode: 2700 liters. with.
    on take-off mode: 2200 l. p. [22]
    on cruise mode: 1500 l. with.
    [edit]
    Flight characteristics
    Maximum speed:
    horizontal flight: 300 km / h [22]
    cruising: 270 km / h
    Range of flight:
    maximum 450 km [22] [37]
    with PTB: 1087 km [22]
    Static ceiling: 3600 m [37]
    Dynamic ceiling: 5000 m [22]
    Rate of climb: m / s 13,6
    smiled text)))))))))) where the author so skillfully compared the power, weight and mass of the payload))))))))))))))))
    that's where 3 passengers appeared in the table and did not understand)))))))))))))))))))))))))
  51. delakelv124
    0
    12 October 2012 19: 47
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    girl WORKS today
    if the last two digits are replaced by "xx"
    busy or day off
  52. Bashkaus
    +8
    12 October 2012 23: 16
    I like comparing these two photos
    Door at Mi28

    And Apache's door

    Of course, I understand that for a war in the southern countries against the Papuans hiding behind a fig leaf, you can defend yourself from arrows and stones with a plywood shield, but still...
    1. exe hacker
      +3
      12 October 2012 23: 25
      Very clear photo!!!
    2. +1
      14 October 2012 13: 25
      When I read the article, I immediately remembered this photo. And she's already here. Fire-and-forget missiles will not help with such armor. By the way, a helicopter pilot I know says that on the Mi-28, 10 seconds is more than enough for him to hit a window with a guided missile from 3 km away. Is it true?
      1. 0
        16 October 2012 12: 47
        It’s as if he didn’t catch the missile in those 10 seconds. And if the target is about 9 kilometers away, then all the enemy’s air defense will have time to discharge.
  53. exe hacker
    -1
    13 October 2012 00: 47
    http://topwar.ru/14334-kak-sobirayut-vertolety-fotoreportazh.html
    Here is an old article about how the assembly goes!

    saturn.mmm,
    Quote: saturn.mmm
    Quote: gregor6549Recently on TV they showed the process of assembling an Apache at a serial plant. The comparison is clearly not in favor of the Russian aviation industry's serial factories.

    http://topwar.ru/14334-kak-sobirayut-vertolety-fotoreportazh.html
    1. 0
      13 October 2012 23: 12
      Quote: exe-hacker
      Here is an old article about how the assembly goes!

      I was looking through this article. Here is a link to how Apaches are collected
      http://www.perunica.ru/oruzhie/4639-megazavody-vertolety-apach-2007-satrip.html
      In general, there are no special differences.
  54. +1
    13 October 2012 12: 45
    They say that helicopters are the souls of dead tanks...
    They also say that real soldiers do not die, but go to Hell to regroup.
    Apparently, those tanks that died were real soldiers and returned in the form of rotary-winged, vengeful demons.
  55. Ratibor12
    0
    13 October 2012 15: 11
    As a result, we had to look for a new weapon, which was the AGM-114 Hellfire missile. Early modifications of this missile used semi-active radar guidance, but then, for various reasons, experiments began with other types of homing.


    As far as I remember, Hellfire was created with a semi-active laser seeker.
  56. wolverine7778
    +1
    14 October 2012 13: 29
    The Mi-28N is good for fighting all sorts of rebels because it is well armored. The crew of the AH-64D sits not in metal-ceramic armor, but in a Kevlar “bath”, and is “naked” to the waist because of the transparent armor on the “Apache” there is only bulletproof glass in the upper part of the armored partition between the operator and the pilot, so that there is a gap 23 mm HP of the shell in the cockpit of one did not kill both. For this reason, Apache crews fly in special vests, which are fitted individually in order, in case of emergency, to prevent bleeding and prevent the intestines from falling out. And on top of the vest is a heavy Kevlar bib.
    The crew of the Mi-28N is completely protected from 7.62 mm bullets, and very well from 12.7 - 14.5 mm, but as a rule, any rebels do not have anything heavier (say 23 mm, from which the Mi-28N armor also protects well).
    Further, a radar is not needed against the rebels (there was information that the AH-64D equipped with radars were simply removed in Iraq) because the rebels practically do not have armored vehicles to detect and fire on which radars were installed on the helicopters. In terms of thermal imaging sighting equipment that provides detection and firing at manpower, the Mi-28N is not inferior to the AH-64D, moreover, due to the presence of a daytime optical channel in the Mi-28N gunner-operator's sighting system (the Apache EMNIP only has a daytime television channel) It’s more comfortable to shoot the Mi-28N during the day. The Mi-28N carries more weapons than the AH-64D. By the way, even in terms of cannon ammunition, the Mi-28N and AH-64D Block 2 are almost equal because in the latter the ammunition for the cannon was reduced from 1200 to 300 rounds.
    In general, the Mi-28N is today the best “counter-insurgency” helicopter in the world, and the AH-64D Block II, due to its radar and ATGM with ARLGSN, continues to be the best anti-tank helicopter in the world)
  57. Husseyn
    +4
    14 October 2012 15: 32
    It’s good to be a patriot, but the Apache is not only stronger than the Mi-28 or more advanced in nuances, but simply head and shoulders above, and the Mi-28N is even outdated on paper. I will not condemn the Ka-50 and its development of the Ka-52; my opinion is that they have a different future and purpose. Why?
    I’ll ask a question, I just ask you to think, and not throw bananas, do we even need a specialized anti-tank helicopter analogue to the Apache? - my opinion is NO. Let me remind you that the Apache was created to fight against our, or rather the Soviet, tank armada in Europe, but in the present and the near future we are not opposed either in a possible global war, much less in a local one, the enemy would not only have superiority in tanks, and in general there are a significant number of them. Let me remind you that not long ago the Russian army managed to lose in the forest a number of tanks equal in number to all the tanks of Great Britain, a NATO country for those who don’t remember...:)))
    We must also not forget that until it comes to a local or global war, the helicopter must fly for more than one hour, it must be maintained and the like - purely economics, without which there is no way, or again the people will have to be driven into communal apartments for the sake of toys from the defense industry. In this regard, Western technology is again head and shoulders above any Soviet and now Russian in terms of quality and technology, but we managed to get out of it through unification. The problems that we had in Soviet times have not been solved, but have also worsened with the collapse and disintegration of the USSR defense industry. We are even further behind the USSR in many technologies.
    Currently, the Mi-38 is already undergoing flight tests, which in the future will replace the Mi-8/17. As I see it, it is necessary to create a development based on the components of this new transport helicopter, a continuation of the Mi-35M, a more advanced support helicopter that would could, if necessary, fight tanks, since we have long-range anti-tank missiles. The Ka-52 is the Mistral and the support of the Marine Corps, which, by definition, will have to face an enemy who has an advantage in tanks and other armored vehicles, if we talk about the Marine Corps as a kind of expeditionary force, and not as a replacement, together with the Airborne Forces, for untrained and stupid infantry in local conflicts.
    Therefore, again, my opinion is not that of a professional :), the author was initially wrong in trying to compare an anti-tank helicopter in its pure form, developed to confront an army with the largest number of tanks in the world, and a domestic helicopter, which, again, is outdated, for quite objective reasons, in which they tried unite opposites. The Indians chose the helicopter they needed - ANTI-TANK, plus a modern one, full of the latest technologies. The author thought a lot about power per ton, but there is also an indicator - the cost of systems to the total cost, of course, given their modernity. In Apache they are all tailored for one main purpose, the rest are secondary, sorry, the most modern today, but what about the Mi-28N?... All that remains is to remember the common expression “Compared... with a finger.”
    1. 0
      14 October 2012 20: 58
      I would like to reinforce your opinion on the development of attack helicopters.
      - I have read more than one article, including in specialized publications, that our enemy is choosing a coaxial propeller design + a pusher propeller. Therefore, Kamovtsy is one step ahead of Mil.
      - Regarding the economic component, the Ka-52 is expensive because they were assembled in units. It got to the point that the plant producing the chassis for the Ka-52 announced that it would close the production line if they didn’t order at least 2010 set in 1 (it’s more profitable to cast chassis for tractors)!!!
      - Why did the Indians choose the Apache Anti-Tank? Because for another 10 years we won’t have drones controlled by a weapons navigator.
  58. +1
    14 October 2012 16: 43
    Dear Hussein, I beg to differ with your statements regarding the purpose of the Apache and Mi 28. Yes, the Apache was originally created as an anti-tank helicopter, but during numerous local conflicts the possibility of its use was proven for a much wider range of tasks: from covering transport convoys to destruction of fortified firing points and targeted strikes against stationary and moving targets. Therefore, this helicopter was modified many times, including through the introduction of systems that are not really needed to fight tanks. For example, surveillance radar. To fight tanks, other sensors were quite enough for him.
    And MI 28 in this regard is not much different from Apache, i.e. There is a tendency towards the universalization of helicopters and airplanes and, as a result, towards a reduction in their range. And the trend is based, first of all, on economic considerations, because the cost of each new type of "eroplane" is growing, and the economies of the countries that use them are weakening. It’s not for nothing that the Americans are relying on their F35, hoping to replace a number of highly specialized aircraft of a similar class, including the very expensive F22. It’s difficult to say what they will get out of this idea, but the trend is obvious and can be seen in all classes of weapons and military equipment. Money, they love counting, even the rich ones
    1. BruderV
      +1
      15 October 2012 00: 04
      Yes, I don’t even understand why everyone here unanimously decided that the Apache is purely anti-tank. The Americans created it based on the rich experience of Vietnam. But there were few tanks there. The fact that it was equipped with excellent anti-tank weapons, again, does not make it exclusively anti-tank. And for tasks like catching up with a black man in the Sahara or the Vietnamese in the jungle, not only armor is important. It is much more important to detect the enemy in difficult terrain before he can come into fire contact with you and quickly destroy him first before he comes to his senses. And these are again thermal imagers, night vision devices, guided weapons, drones and other goodies that we don’t have or have at the level of 20-30 years ago.
  59. Husseyn
    +2
    14 October 2012 20: 42
    Quote: gregor6549
    For example, surveillance radar.
    The overhead radar is primarily used specifically for Hellfire with an active radar seeker and the implementation of the “fire-and-forget” principle.

    Universalization, for example, how to control UAVs and so on appeared later; the presence of a radar only simplified the task.


    Quote: gregor6549
    To fight tanks, other sensors were quite enough for him.
    The Americans did not install a flir over-bushing system on the Apache for other reasons. However, for a helicopter hiding behind folds of terrain, that is, attacking from an ambush, the presence of surveillance systems at the highest point is optimal. The only problem is that previously, with TOU and HOT ATGMs, in any case, the helicopter remained vulnerable from the moment the missile was launched until it hit the target; the flir over-bushing system did not completely solve the problem. In addition, this system does not guarantee to detect and then hit a tank-type target at a long range, and contrary to the reference data provided (8 km), Hellfire has an 11 km destruction range.
    1. wolverine7778
      +4
      14 October 2012 21: 04
      Here is the story of one British Apache helicopter pilot. Unlike the Cobra, the four-bladed Apache propeller rotates at half the speed - five revolutions per second. And creates half as much noise. (The AH-1Z also has four blades).
      The average flight lasts three hours. It is accompanied by approximately six hours of work on the ground: an hour for planning and preparation, twenty minutes for setting the task, half an hour for launch and taxiing, forty minutes for refueling and rearmament, another half hour for filling out all the documents and three hours for debriefing, with analysis of video recordings and other things.
      The total time in the air should not exceed six to seven hours per day. Then people start to run out of steam.
      Detection tools
      The daytime camera provides 127x magnification. A license plate number can be read from a distance of four kilometers.
      The Taliban like to dress in black. And this makes sense: in the shadows through a black and white camera it is more difficult to notice.
      “It glows, it means it moves.” A simple rule for recognizing “live” targets through an infrared camera.
      At night, using an infrared camera, you can distinguish a person from four kilometers away. In addition, stains of fresh blood are clearly visible in the infrared range – from as far as a kilometer away.
      In the “green” of any density, the infrared camera perfectly sees the hot mortar - its barrel looks like a rectangle of the appropriate size. (Soviet helicopter pilots would probably give I don’t know how many years of their lives for such an opportunity)
      The Afghans, deployed at night in what closely resembles a battle formation, are undoubtedly practicing various attack techniques. But if these same Afghans leave behind heat sources approximately the size of a human footprint, then they are not practicing attack techniques, but are out to take a shit. Because they walk around in groups at night - it’s too scary alone.
      If an Apache is hunting you, it’s better not to run. You are unlikely to run away from a helicopter, but once you run, you will begin to glow much brighter - it will become easier to hit you.
      It is not difficult to distinguish living from dead. At a temperature of five degrees Celsius, the corpse cools down in about half an hour. You can even distinguish a lightly wounded person from a seriously wounded one: if the lying person’s arms are approximately the same shade as the torso, then he most likely does not have serious blood loss.
      The anti-missile system detects the fired missile by the ultraviolet component of the exhaust. Then everything happens automatically: dipole reflectors or heat traps are fired, and if the missile has laser guidance (laser irradiation is detected by a separate sensor system), then the warning system begins to issue a series of commands for sharp maneuvers. The algorithm she uses to compile this series is strictly classified. In theory, such a system allows you to escape from low to medium altitudes, protecting yourself from small arms fire from the ground. (Macy mentions the system's numerous false positives).
  60. wolverine7778
    0
    14 October 2012 21: 07
    Here is the story of one British Apache helicopter pilot.
    Unlike the Cobra, the four-bladed Apache propeller rotates at half the speed - five revolutions per second. And creates half as much noise. (The AH-1Z also has four blades).
    The average flight lasts three hours. It is accompanied by approximately six hours of work on the ground: an hour for planning and preparation, twenty minutes for setting the task, half an hour for launch and taxiing, forty minutes for refueling and rearmament, another half hour for filling out all the documents and three hours for debriefing, with analysis of video recordings and other things.
    The total time in the air should not exceed six to seven hours per day. Then people start to run out of steam.
    Detection tools
    The daytime camera provides 127x magnification. A license plate number can be read from a distance of four kilometers.
    The Taliban like to dress in black. And this makes sense: in the shadows through a black and white camera it is more difficult to notice.
    “It glows, it means it moves.” A simple rule for recognizing “live” targets through an infrared camera.
    At night, using an infrared camera, you can distinguish a person from four kilometers away. In addition, stains of fresh blood are clearly visible in the infrared range – from as far as a kilometer away.
    In the “green” of any density, the infrared camera perfectly sees the hot mortar - its barrel looks like a rectangle of the appropriate size. (Soviet helicopter pilots would probably give I don’t know how many years of their lives for such an opportunity).

    The Afghans, deployed at night in what closely resembles a battle formation, are undoubtedly practicing various attack techniques. But if these same Afghans leave behind heat sources approximately the size of a human footprint, then they are not practicing attack techniques, but are out to take a shit. Because they walk around in groups at night - it’s too scary alone.
    If an Apache is hunting you, it’s better not to run. You are unlikely to run away from a helicopter, but once you run, you will begin to glow much brighter - it will become easier to hit you.
    It is not difficult to distinguish living from dead. At a temperature of five degrees Celsius, the corpse cools down in about half an hour. You can even distinguish a lightly wounded person from a seriously wounded one: if the lying person’s arms are approximately the same shade as the torso, then he most likely does not have serious blood loss.
    The anti-missile system detects the fired missile by the ultraviolet component of the exhaust. Then everything happens automatically: dipole reflectors or heat traps are fired, and if the missile has laser guidance (laser irradiation is detected by a separate sensor system), then the warning system begins to issue a series of commands for sharp maneuvers. The algorithm she uses to compile this series is strictly classified. In theory, such a system allows you to escape from low to medium altitudes, protecting yourself from small arms fire from the ground. (Macy mentions the system's numerous false positives).
    The American Longbows flew without radar - the Americans decided that here it was just excess weight. But the radar turned out to be very useful in navigation mode. On the display, the ground below the helicopter is black, the ground at least one hundred feet below the helicopter is gray, and the ground above (the one you crash into) is white. With this technology you can fly in the mountains completely blind.
  61. wolverine7778
    0
    14 October 2012 21: 18
    weaponry
    The Alpha load is Hellfire only, the Bravo load is NAR only, and the default is Charlie, a mixture of both.
    Re-equipping an Apache is a half-hour job for eight people. At a good pace.
    Each of the crew members can take control of the cannon, having warned about it. It is also necessary to warn about the opening of fire. The sound when shooting is as if they are hitting a helicopter with a sledgehammer and your partner may think that they are shooting at you.
    A cannon can easily make a direct hit on a person from a distance of one and a half kilometers.
    An unguided missile explodes at a distance of 860 meters from the helicopter. Further on, 80 tungsten arrow-shaped striking elements are already flying. They fly at speeds above 2M and can fly far. A direct hit to a person is not required; each element creates a shock wave strong enough to rupture skin and muscle when traveling a distance of four inches.
    Even with a HEAT warhead, the Hellfire is a good anti-personnel weapon, powerful and extremely accurate. If you fire a Hellfire at a group of Taliban (it happens that you can’t use a cannon or a NAR), then the first signs that there was someone there at all begin about thirty meters later.
    Hellfire can be driven into a vertical shaft. You need to go from a height of 3000 feet into a vertical dive above the mine, fire a rocket, wait for the explosion (by this time the helicopter will already be falling at a speed of 150 knots and will be at an altitude of 750 feet), and then smoothly exit the dive. (Macy once very vaguely mentions a Hellfire with a volumetric detonating warhead, but if you have a cumulative warhead, then you have to do tricks like this).
    If you come back with unspent missiles, the senior armorer will eat your baldness. NARs and Hellfires can be carried on suspensions for a limited time - their mechanisms are calibrated from vibration and they must be sent back to the factory, which is accompanied by writing a fair amount of paperwork. And if you release Hellfire, you will still be bald - because you released one that could be carried for a long time.
    The Hellfire launch is done a little to the side. "Hellfire" at the start should not pass in front of the infrared camera lens, otherwise its torch will produce such flare that the operator will inevitably lose the target.
    The target can be changed four seconds before Hellfire hits - it will have time to re-aim. With a salvo launch - two missiles on one beam and transferred to another target - the same four-second interval works. (In fact, Macy doesn't mention a single Hellfire miss.)

    One helicopter targeting a Hellfire that was fired by another helicopter is quite possible. It’s just that such a need arises very rarely. All sorts of tactical
    At first, no one knew what to do with the Apaches - they did at least something. But it quickly became clear that it was much better for close support than the Harrier. Sometimes all that was required was simply to appear above the battlefield. A good attack helicopter pilot is, first and foremost, a good infantryman. In direct support, the helicopter pilot must be able to see the situation through the eyes of people on the ground and understand exactly what they need. You cannot shoot at unarmed people. Even if these unarmed people are holding a portable radio, which they use to adjust mortar fire.
    The cannon cannot reach some buildings. Then one helicopter continues to fire cannons so that those who are hiding there do not jump out, and the second one places the Hellfire in the right place. Hellfire will blow almost anything to smithereens. (Probably, unless we are talking about old fortresses - here the Mi-24s were in a more advantageous position, which, without saying a bad word, threw five hundred bombs).
  62. 0
    15 October 2012 19: 56
    Let Russia disrupt arms deliveries even more often, and then we’ll see what else they won’t order from us.
  63. Husseyn
    +2
    15 October 2012 22: 45
    Quote: wolverine7778
    If you come back with unspent missiles, the senior armorer will eat your baldness.
    In the Soviet Union it was generally believed that each tank shot was equal to chrome officer boots, but here Hellfire - 1 missile is equal in cost to the average Russian three-room apartment, or a good house in the USA. They live luxuriously .. while in some armies, if the BMP operator-gunner makes a mistake with a cheaper missile, it’s time.
  64. 0
    15 October 2012 23: 06
    There is no limit to perfection!
  65. 0
    17 October 2012 11: 31
    We just need to buy more helicopters. Otherwise they are almost in our red book
  66. MAHDYJIA
    0
    17 March 2013 22: 47
    Apache turns out better than ours :(
  67. lilit.193
    +1
    April 12 2013 14: 47
    "Black Shark" and "Alligator" are still cooler! bully