Next generation weapons: the problem is not simple

Zart, watch out! Lianna suddenly shouted.
and pushed Gordon aside.
An atomic bullet whistled over his head.
and exploded in the bushes.
Derk Undis with a twisted face
stood very close, again raising
weapon for a shot.
Lyanna grabbed his arm desperately.
Edmond Moore Hamilton "Star Kings"

Weapon stories. Recently, more and more articles have appeared regarding the important news weapons world. Finally, in the United States, a choice has been made regarding a new automatic rifle of a new caliber, which will have to become a weapon "for a long time." That is, we can assume that the Next Generation Weapons (NGSW) program, launched in 2017 with the aim of finding a replacement for M4 rifles, M249 machine guns and a 5,56 mm cartridge, was a success.

In April of this year, the SIG M5 rifle, M250 machine gun, Vortex M157 optics and 6,8x51 mm cartridge were adopted. SIG has also produced several civilian Spear semi-automatic rifles. And today we will get acquainted with what… foreign experts think about all this.

Rifle SIG M5

The SIG rifle (Spear, "Spear" - its commercial designation, M5 - military) is the same evolution of the SIG MCX, which, in turn, is an evolution of the AR-15 and AR-18 systems. In the MCX, the recoil spring assembly is located at the top of the receiver, which made it possible to use a folding stock on it. It also has very easy to change barrels and a set of fully reversible controls.

The 6,8x51 mm cartridge has also evolved in a certain way. This new cartridge (commercial designation .277 SIG Fury, which can be translated as "rage, fury", and also as "fury" in relation to a woman) is designed to provide high muzzle velocities using a relatively short barrel (M5 has a 13-inch barrel ). This necessitated the development of a composite case body using a stainless steel case bottom. Such a sleeve will be able to safely cope with the highest loads.

This is what the packaging of the new ZIG cartridges looks like - .277 SIG "Fury". The second lower cartridge is with a bimetallic sleeve. The top cartridge is an old design with a brass sleeve.
Photo forgottenweapons.com

However, currently available commercial ammunition has a lower pressure propellant charge. Moreover, it is emphasized that the training shooting of this rifle will be carried out by training ammunition, which will be used as cartridges with a conventional solid brass sleeve. Cartridges with bimetallic cases and high-energy propellants are planned to be saved for the war.

But in this photo, the difference is more noticeable: the sleeve of the new cartridge is thicker with the same old caliber. Its fabrication will be more difficult and, consequently, the price will be higher. That is, killing enemy soldiers with these bullets will become even more expensive "pleasure".
Photo: forgottenweapons.com

Both the M5 and M250 have been ordered by the Army with a silencer-suppressor for each unit, which is a significant step forward in terms of comfortable use of weapons. The Suppressor is another SIG innovation designed specifically to keep gas from getting into the faces of shooters, and tests have shown it does very well.

Opinions

Ian McColin of Forgotten Weapons, who tested the rifle, stated that the M5/Spear is an excellent rifle that has "soft action" and is "reliable and very accurate". However, this does not mean that this is a suitable rifle for the army. Does its ability to hit modern body armor justify the compromise between the additional weight of the payload and the reduced ammunition? “Time will tell…” he says.

Here it is - the new M5 rifle. On the left is a folding bolt handle above the magazine and trigger and a double, on both sides, reloading handle at the rear of the bolt carrier, like the “good old” AR-15.
Photo by Sig-Sauer

But there are other points of view. In particular, one of the American military experts who fought in Afghanistan directly writes that he never thought that "this story with NGSW will go that far." Moreover, the new rifle and its cartridge, in his opinion, "represent a real failure", the essence of which lies in the fact that those in power have incorrectly identified the main problem of the war in Afghanistan, as a result of which they have decided, under false pretenses, to replace the real problem with a solution which doesn't really fix the problem.

It is believed that the new rifle and new cartridge should effectively hit enemy soldiers dressed in bulletproof vests and new high-strength helmets. Moreover, the M4 will still continue to be used, but the new weapon will primarily be used by special operations soldiers.

And this is exactly what served as its basis: MCX - SIG assault carbine, on the basis of which weapons were developed under the NGSW program.
Photo by Sig-Sauer

So what's the problem?

And it is that tactics and operational art should control your weapons, and not vice versa. Thus, the hostilities of recent decades have led to the fact that the main infantry small arms began to be intended for action at a distance of up to 300 m, and usually less. The 5,56mm bullets work very well at this range, so you can carry a lot of rounds, and besides, it is also easy to shoot from anyone who can carry it. These weapons are easy to train, logistically simple, and good enough to serve their intended purpose. Something else would be better?

Suppressor. It combines as many as three devices at the same time: a silencer, a flash suppressor and a muzzle brake. That is, thanks to this tube, the barrel lifts up less when firing, there is no muzzle flame, and the volume of the shot is greatly reduced.
Photo: forgottenweapons.com

Here we must think that an individual weapon of 5,56 mm caliber is mainly intended to ensure the safety of the shooter himself. It's not really what can be called an "offensive weapon" in the sense that it's designed to kill an enemy from a distance. Today, machine-gun crews, mortars and 40-mm grenade launchers are doing this with much greater efficiency.

On the right side, the M5 is very similar to the M4. But purely visually more. In addition, her butt can fold to the left.
Photo: forgottenweapons.com

All the main armies of the world today “hit” a pair of 5,56 / 7,62 mm cartridges, and this solution works, so attempts to forcibly enter some third type of cartridge into it also make no sense. It is easier to train soldiers to shoot accurately, give them modern sights and provide them with weapons of high power, than to throw out huge amounts of money on new rifles and new cartridges.

Little things

Little things matter too. For example, in Afghanistan, machine gun fire from US adversaries was more effective only because the Taliban fired from machine guns on tripods, while American soldiers answered them from machine guns on bipods. And which is easier? Put machine guns on tripods or introduce new machine guns for new cartridges, again, on bipods and expect that this is exactly the solution that will fix everything?

There is a protrusion reflecting spent cartridges, an anti-dust door, a fuse switch on both sides, again, the design differences from the M4 are the most minimal.
Photo: forgottenweapons.com

And how did the NGSW program try to solve this problem? - Improved ballistics, arguing that the problem is in the "armored soldiers" of the enemy. In fact, the problems with the M250 will be the same as with the M240 if they also shoot from bipods.

"Too little precise control, too difficult to control the fire."

That is, shooters should be tritely trained to shoot accurately. Put machine guns on tripods, saturate the units with modern surveillance devices.

Unlike the M4, the M5 has a short stroke gas piston and a two position gas regulator. The bullet nose is inserted into its hole, and the regulator can be turned. And, of course, without a Picatinny rail today, nowhere.
Photo: forgottenweapons.com

The ballistics of the weapon does not affect this. This is a human interface problem, and it is more important than anything else. Guys armed with the M250 will shoot fewer (heavier) bullets at the same targets as the old machine guns with the same shitty effect on the enemy.

The barrel is more massive than that of the M4, and why this is so is understandable. After all, it is designed for a stronger gas pressure!
Photo: forgottenweapons.com

Weapons and ballistics are far less important than training. You can be sure that a German WWII Alpine Rifles unit would probably have dealt with most Afghan insurgents quickly, supported by machine-gun fire from over 800 meters away. Their weapons, tactics and training would give them capabilities that "our ingenious leadership" cannot even imagine. Moreover, the same German gunners had to consult data tables in order to find out the most effective methods of firing between different heights in the mountains; today it can easily be done by an application on a mobile phone.

Completely disassembled new M5 rifle.
Photo: forgottenweapons.com

PS

Judging by the video footage of the special operation of the Russian Defense Ministry in Ukraine, where the operators of rocket launchers are armed with AKs with wooden butts with peeled varnish, these machine guns fully meet their purpose, and they will serve for a very long time. And against drone-Robot with artificial intelligence, recoilless rifles and hypersonic missiles, even the most advanced small arms of the American special forces will be powerless ...

This is the last century, no matter what cartridge cases are used in cartridges!

Comments

[Uncle lee]

AK with wooden butts with peeled varnish, these machine guns are quite suitable for their purpose, and they will serve for a very long time

Kalashnikov is for a long time!

[KCA]

I imagine how a soldier at the KMB or in training cleans such a gun, and next to him stands a sergeant with cotton wool on a match, and so on for two or three weeks, until the soldier removes a speck of dust from every crack

[Shurik70]

Quote: KCA

until a soldier removes a speck of dust from every chink

Well, yes ... Once he crawled across a field with grass - and the whole casing was covered in grass.
And don’t bring Slaanesh (and who else should you pray with such a weapon?) to shoot in a very dusty place - then you can’t even take off a cotton swab with alcohol that has boiled from the inside. Even the LGBT will not like this perversion.

[tarakan]

I never understood the love of designers for "leaky" casings, you get tired of picking out the dirt

[3danimal]

Hanging barrel, precision, better heat dissipation.

[Alexfly]

Are you sure that the hanging barrel affects the barrel cooling effect?

[3danimal]

Cooling is facilitated by a "leaky" casing.

[stankow]

There is no dirt in the Middle East. Shake off the drink from the plastic and you're done! ;) It began to beat on Russia will not climb :)

[andrewkor]

"The possibilities of the cartridge of caliber 7,62 are far from being exhausted": M.T. Kalashnikov commented on the adoption of the AK-74.

[3danimal]

Commented 50 years ago.
Modern 5,45 cartridges are superior to modern 7,62x39 in terms of armor penetration.

[Alexfly]

Well, that's pretty relative. It all depends on the bullet, distance and cartridge ..

[3danimal]

Give specific examples.
Now the best armor-piercing cartridge 7,62x39 is noticeably inferior to its counterpart in caliber 5,45x39. Despite the fact that 5,45 has better flatness, less recoil.

[Alexfly]

Look at the ballistic tables, it will become clearer. Then armor penetration is not only a piece of a hardened core, but also the energy of a bullet at distances .. Everything that is good at 100-150m looks completely different at long distances .. There are only three cartridges in the Russian Federation: 54 welt and two at 39 with sharpening - that's where the diversity ends...

[3danimal]

but also the energy of the bullet at distances

Penetration is affected not just by energy, but by its ratio to the cross-sectional area of ​​​​the bullet (J / mm ^ 2). And this ratio is better in caliber 5,45.
In the best samples of the latter (7n24 and above), the core is made of tungsten carbide.
The 7,62x39 has a low initial speed, nothing much can be done about it. In a smaller caliber, one could create something more powerful with the same specific impulse.
An example is existing 6-6,5mm ammunition.

[Mister X]

Quote: Liam

.

и

Quote: Negro

.

Continuation of the "SIG Sauer rifle" theme, and hybrid cartridges

[WapentakeLokki]

yes, I would like, of course, something FOREVER !!! .. but as long as cartridge case cartridges are in use, then most likely AK is in service !!!

[user]

and cartridge 6,8x51 mm

If my memory serves me right, then the first who used this cartridge was Fedorov and the Japanese Arisaka was also 6.5 mm. So the story goes around and around.

[Negro]

Quote: user

and cartridge 6,8x51 mm

If my memory serves me right, then the first who used this cartridge was Fedorov

It's not memory, it's a whole head problem. At the time of Fedorov, no one could have imagined specifically THIS cartridge, especially on army weapons.

Quote: user

Japanese Arisaka was also 6.5 mm

There were as many cartridges as you like in caliber 6-7 mm before WWI.

[user]

In the days of Fedorov, no one could have imagined specifically THIS cartridge,

But Fedorov believed, at that time, that this cartridge was the best in terms of performance. And Arisaka chose 6,5 mm as one of the closest in ballistics.
Read books sometimes and you will learn so much that Wikipedia does not have

[Negro]

Experts beat.

You are confusing "cartridge" and "caliber". Of course, there was no cartridge with such pressures and speeds. There were plenty of thoughts about some kind of intermediate solution between Arisaka and 7,62x54.

[demiurg]

At 600-800 meters to shoot from a rifle, it already takes a long and tedious aim. Plus to have the appropriate optics. A more useful version of kmk is the most automated transmission of target coordinates in real time with a description of the target to the means of destruction. And again, the most automated system that chooses how to destroy the target.

So the current small arms and ammunition are quite sufficient. The troops of the Special Forces may need to increase the power of the riflemen, but they basically work without the support of artillery.

[AUL]

So what's the problem?

And it is that tactics and operational art should control your weapons, and not vice versa.

Well, a very controversial statement! Try to attack a machine gun platoon with horse lava - you will be very upset! Or carry out Operation Citadel when the enemy has tactical nuclear weapons? Plan an operation, not taking into account that the enemy has a breakthrough of UAVs of different classes and they see your every move? Therefore, it is necessary to build tactics and operational art based on the performance characteristics of your and, of course, enemy weapons

[tarakan]

I agree with you, good optics, zeroing in weapons at the training ground and shooting at different distances a bunch of cartridges and Kalash will become dragoons

[Old tanker]

It is possible and necessary for the Special Forces troops to increase the power of the riflemen,

Therefore, in the units of the Special Forces of Russia (and not only) they love the good old 7,62.

[Eule]

Quote: demiurg

at 600-800 meters it’s already necessary to shoot from a rifle

Know how to shoot.
Memoirs of mercenaries from Africa are even in Russian. And they write that mercenaries with FN FAL, optics on it and the ability to shoot, knock out blacks with AKs from a distance of 700-800m, when the danger from shooting from the x39 “in that direction” is not so great for them. Yes, at the base they constantly go to the shooting range and therefore know how to shoot, but everyday issues like washing and cooking are handled by hired civilian personnel with a lower salary than shooters.
These are relatively recent stories from PMCs, literally from the last 10 years. So improving the sight and training methods is the main reserve.

[riwas]

Next generation weapons: the problem is not simple

Here it must be understood that in Afghanistan, when firing at a distance of more than 100 meters, when using 5,45-mm and 7,62-mm machine guns, they preferred to shoot with single cartridges. Therefore, ideally, a shooter needs two weapons. A semi-automatic sniper rifle chambered for a more powerful cartridge for long-range shooting and a compact lightweight machine gun for shooting at distances up to 120 m instead of a pistol.

[Sergey Aleksandrovich]

Wrong, everything is wrong. Spirits fired single, because they did not like to carry spare stores with them, and ours fired in short bursts. When entering into fire contact, the first store can and should be released without thinking about the expense. And to carry with you both a sniper rifle and a light submachine gun you are tormented, you also need different cartridges for them.

[FRoman1984]

A few thoughts:
1. For this 6.8x51 caliber, the barrel life will be very low at those announced pressures (velocities).
2. The return will be significantly higher, it will increase. Accordingly, the speed of trailed fire and accuracy will decrease.
3. The weight of the BC will increase.
4. Always curious to know the concept. Are they the US Army (and after all, the assault rifle is positioned for the infantry, and not for the MTR) and plans to fight in the mountains in the future? Where the contact distances are 700-900 meters (RMB pressed their tail hard there, 5.56x45 turned out to be useless).
Or is it urban conditions? 5.56x45 at a distance of up to 500 meters completely.
To me, the sucker from the couch, it seems that they are mistaken. Well, that's their business.

[Negro]

Quote: FRoman1984

They are the US Army (and after all, an assault rifle for the infantry is positioned, and not for the MTR)

So far, only MTR.

Quote: FRoman1984

barrel resource will be very low

Barrel consumption will increase. However, practice will show that 5.56 NATO is also a hot cartridge.

Quote: FRoman1984

The return will be significantly higher, will increase.

Compared to 5.56 yes, compared to 7.62x51 no.

Quote: FRoman1984

The weight of the BC will increase.

The volume of wearable BC will decrease compared to 5,56. However, MTRs are usually carried, it is not so important for them. Plus the actual refusal to fire bursts.

Quote: FRoman1984

To me, the sucker from the couch, it seems that they are mistaken

It is quite possible that an empty whim. But rich people can afford it.

[hagen]

Quote: Negro

It is quite possible that an empty whim. But rich people can afford it.

I think that in no small measure the idea is being pushed through so that the rich become even richer ...

[Negro]

Well, you know. In any decision on a new weapon, there are narrow-departmental, as it was called in the USSR, interests. But this does not make any new weapon a priori useless.

[hagen]

Quote: Negro

In any decision on a new weapon, there are narrow departmental, as it was called in the USSR, interests

In a country where money is God, interests and needs are largely determined by the reaction of quotations of manufacturing companies. In the US, the entire economy is based on the military-industrial complex. This is where I come from.

Quote: Negro

But this does not make any new weapon a priori useless.

I do not argue. And the dagger is good for the one who has it. And it’s bad for someone who doesn’t have it at the right time. There is no more "useful" thing than to improve the methods of killing their own kind.

[Negro]

Quote: Hagen

interests and needs are largely determined by the reaction of quotations of manufacturing companies.

)))
This is true, for example, in relation to the war of the Boeing company with the F-35. As for Sig, it is generally a European company. The American government usually treats the Germans without tenderness.

Quote: Hagen

In the US, the entire economy is based on the military-industrial complex. This is where I come from.

You should have received materiel. The military-industrial complex is an insignificant part of any economy, incomparable, say, with agriculture or retail trade. Especially the shooter: the Colt went bankrupt, and the dog with him.

[hagen]

Quote: Negro

As for Sig, it is generally a European company. The American government usually treats the Germans without tenderness.

There are many owners in Sig, including American ones ...

Quote: Negro

The military-industrial complex is an insignificant part of any economy, incomparable, for example, with agriculture

The military-industrial complex is the most high-tech industry, which basically consists of vertically integrated corporations. And although exports from the US military-industrial complex amount to $50 billion, which of course is less than $150-160 billion from agricultural products, nevertheless, the influence of Boeing or Radeon sharks in politics is incomparably higher than that of farmer associations. However, even here the boundary between agricultural producers and the military-industrial complex is rather arbitrary. After all, Monsanto can produce military products. However, if the manufacturer still needs to prove to the market (consumer) his right to a place under the sun, then the military-industrial complex, which masters more than half of the country's budget, gets this place by intimidating the population and politicians with all sorts of threats, sometimes "sucked" from the finger. Actually, what is happening there today.

[Negro]

Quote: Hagen

The military-industrial complex, mastering more than half of the country's budget,

Are you talking about North Korea?

Quote: Hagen

all sorts of threats, sometimes "sucked" from the finger. Actually, what is happening there today.

What is happening today - is it the tricks of the American military-industrial complex? Well pumped threats, so I will say.

[hagen]

Quote: Negro

What is happening today - is it the tricks of the American military-industrial complex?

These are tricks of the USA to monopoly milk Europe. Among others, and with the help of the military-industrial complex. You probably think that the United States is gathering everything possible into NATO in order to benefit them with protection and security?

[Negro]

When NATO started, it was a reasonable idea to make the WWII SES a permanent structure, headquarters and logistics. Practice has shown that if it suddenly becomes necessary, then such a rigmarole will take a couple of years, and comrade. Stalin will not wait. The idea turned out great. In the 90s, a purely military structure turned into a formally insurance company against "geopolitical threats", but in fact into a circle of interests - as evidenced by such participants as Germany or Turkey, which, in fact, create threats to other NATO countries. Where it will lead - we'll see.

[3danimal]

You probably think that the United States is gathering everything possible into NATO in order to benefit them with protection and security?

Suggest your version, I'm interested.
Bulgaria, Hungary, the Baltic countries were not forced into NATO by anyone. They applied and waited for 5 or more years.

[Repellent]

Quote: 3danimal

Suggest your version, I'm interested.
Nobody forced Bulgaria, Hungary, the Baltic countries into NATO

The herd instinct is not unique to animals. But also to the countries of Spratia, for example. The Bulgarians and the Hungarians were so used to the Warsaw Pact that outside of it they felt naked, ahem ... in general, not quite dressed.

What is not the version?

[3danimal]

Do you think the Hungarians, Bulgarians, Balts .. subhuman?
Servant race?
What if the Hungarians remember 1956, and the inhabitants of the Baltic countries - 1940, and feared a repetition?
That one day Russia will come out of
crisis, remember the imperial ambitions and decide to once again lay hands on the territory, which he considers rightfully his own?
And to become part of a powerful defensive alliance (where there is Article 5) promised immunity to small countries from repeating history with the deprivation of sovereignty?

[Repellent]

Quote: 3danimal

Do you think the Hungarians, Bulgarians, Balts .. subhuman?

And what about "Hungarians, Bulgarians, Balts"?

Their governments applied to NATO. The country as a whole, roughly speaking.

What are these countries as a whole - I already wrote above. Is something unclear?

Quote: 3danimal

become part of a powerful defensive alliance (where there is an article 5)

This "article" translated into publicly available sounds like "we will help, than we deem necessary." Obligations to fight for an offended NAT neighbor this article does not contain. about nothing

[3danimal]

This "article" translated into publicly available sounds like "we will help, than we deem necessary."

We read again:
to become part of a powerful defensive alliance (where there is Article 5) promised small countries immunity to the repetition of history

Better than nothing.
Recently they announced that they would increase the number of troops in Eastern Europe from 40 to 300 thousand people.

Their governments applied to NATO.

Which were chosen by the Bulgarians, Hungarians.

these countries as a whole

Second-class people, driven solely by the herd instinct?

[Repellent]

Quote: 3danimal

Quote: Repellent

these countries as a whole

Second-class people, driven solely by the herd instinct?

Governments, native, governments. Which in the same Sprat (and in Bulgaria) are somehow ... not very national

Read carefully and you won't need to ask again.

Everything, I'm done with you

[3danimal]

not very national

Who are they made up of? From reptilians?

"Speak straight" *Co

[ZAV69]

Quote: 3danimal

Servant race?

What, isn't it? The Balts have been under the German boot throughout history. Even in the Russian period of history, the Germans looked back. After the Turkish occupation, the Bulgarians immediately put the Austrian dynasty on their necks and fought against Russia in all wars. Well, you yourself will find Dostoevsky's quote about the Bulgarians. The only more or less free were the Hungarians, although in the Austrian Empire they were not in the first roles (remember that very Hungarian uprising suppressed by Russia), although the empire was considered to be dual.

[3danimal]

Balts the whole history under the German boot

Well, for 300 years we have been under the Mongolian boot. It happens.
Does this mean that we have no right to sovereignty?
Also with them.
But with their population, size, economies, they will not be able to independently protect themselves from a large neighbor (if he decides to play the Age of Empires in the 21st century). The way out is to become part of a defensive alliance.
Example: Lithuania does not have modern fighters (not to mention the possibility of creating one), but its skies are alternately patrolled by German, Spanish Eurofighters, Swedish Gripens, etc.

[Terran ghost]

And even though exports from the US military-industrial complex amount to $ 50 billion, which is certainly less than 150-160 billion from agricultural products

In the specific case of the US military-industrial complex, their main income comes from contracts within the US military budget itself. Which EMNIP has almost crept up to 700 (seven hundred) billion dollars a year.

[3danimal]

One of the advantages of this transition to a new cartridge: the rejection of the capricious M249 in operation.
Compared to .308, .227 is also better: ballistics, point-blank range, armor penetration.
I would suggest replacing the .308 with a .227 and abandoning the M249, but leaving the 5,56 for the strike units by developing new cartridges (of the 7n24 type and higher for 5,45x39).
In practice, light and comfortable M4s will still be in service with pilots, tankers, medics, etc.
Time will tell how successful the decision was.

[Negro]

So far, the idea is to change both 5,56 and 7,62 at once. How reasonable she is - indeed, life will show.

[Suhoy]

They are preparing to fight with those who have bulletproof vests. For natives in pajamas and slippers, 5,56 is enough, there is no dispute. But modern armor can no longer be pierced, even in armor-piercing design.

[Eule]

Quote: FRoman1984

the barrel resource will be very low when

If there is any resemblance to an AR, then replacing the barrel only requires a torque wrench attachment, after partial disassembly. Unlike AK, where it is on a hot landing. That is, in the extreme case, a box with 4000 rounds of ammunition will have a replacement barrel. A torque wrench is already in the spare parts kit of almost every NATO vehicle. AR-ok has a tightening force of 40 Nm.
In general, nothing prevents us from switching to modern tool steels for barrels, instead of “reducing the hardness of steel to save the life of machines,” as at Izhmash.

[Vladimir61]

Weapons and ballistics are far less important than training. You can be sure that a German WWII Alpine Rifles unit would probably have dealt with most Afghan insurgents quickly, supported by machine-gun fire from over 800 meters away. Their weapons, tactics and training would give them capabilities that "our ingenious leadership" cannot even imagine.

In pearls! Firstly, the Germans did not show themselves in Afghanistan, although their contingent was almost 4500 people, including the vaunted KSK. Secondly, what is “our ingenious leadership” attached to here?

[Konnick]

For example, in Afghanistan, machine gun fire from US adversaries was more effective only because the Taliban fired from machine guns on tripods, while American soldiers answered them from machine guns on bipods. And which is easier? Put machine guns on tripods or introduce new machine guns for new cartridges, again, on bipods and expect that this is exactly the solution that will fix everything?

There is another solution for such a situation ... For some reason, the situation in Afghanistan is cited as an example. Everything is simpler, in Iraq, the Americans spent more shots for Mk.19 Mod.3 grenade launchers than cartridges for ALL types of small arms. The Iraqi infantry could not get closer than 1,5 km. Other weapons need to be improved.

[Andrey VOV]

Yet different theaters of war Iraq and Afghanistan

[Architect]

Most of the videos from the conflicts of recent years and NVO including, so they shoot without aiming either from around the corner or overhead with outstretched arms.
And in this case, firepower is fundamental.
More ammo more power.
So 5,45 will be in service for a long time.

[acetophenone]

Completely disassembled new M5 rifle.

Actually, this is what we call "incomplete disassembly." But... the artist sees?

[Negro]

1. The author explains the American MTR for shooting training.
2. The author tells the Americans about the support of infantry with heavy weapons.

And where do we see this political scientist who hasn't taken his pills? On the site of the militarists, in the "weapons" section.

Perfectly.

[KSVK]

Yes, I did not expect such a blunder from the Yankees. The fact that they were finally able to bring to mind the brainchild of Stoner is certainly well done. By the way, it would also not hurt us to make a short piston stroke on the AK-12. But the cartridge IMHO is poor. And a 13 inch barrel is also a good idea, especially with this cartridge. The short life of the barrel is ensured with such pressures. And the ballistics is debatable. I was still expecting something in 6,5mm. Wangyu that this product will remain in limited use in the MTR units. And the barrel, most likely, will be lengthened, according to the "results of combat use." And I think that this bimetallic miracle will also be abandoned, as they will switch to a long barrel.

[Terran ghost]

it would not hurt to make a short piston stroke on the AK-12.

What for? That is, if there is a direct desire to make a copy of the Heckler-Koch model 416, it’s easier to make a copy right away. The blessing in the genre of "unlicensed clone XK-416 or its close similarity" is now full of nominees from various manufacturers around the world.
PS: The main thing is not to succeed, like the Japanese. Which recently "rolled out onto the mountain" an unlicensed copy of the SCAR-L from the Belgian FN, which eventually came out in the "price in dollars for a gun" category .... MORE EXPENSIVE than the original.

A 13 inch barrel is also a good idea, especially with this cartridge.

13 inches is 330 millimeters. Well, at first glance, yes, a bit short IMHO. But you need to look at how completely the gunpowder manages to burn out at such a barrel length. Actually, after all, the whole problem in the combination "powerful cartridge + short barrel" is precisely this - the gunpowder does not have time to sufficiently burn out in the barrel and burns out after the muzzle. Forming a large "torch" muzzle flash and adding recoil due to the dyno reactive effect.

[TreeSmall]

gunpowder does not have time to burn out sufficiently in the barrel and burns out after the muzzle. Forming a large "torch" muzzle flash and adding recoil due to the dyno reactive effect.

Something you have with physics (and logic) is not right.
If the propellant charge burns out outside the barrel, then this return will not increase in any way.
Because the impulse (force, energy) it will transfer to the environment.
"Efficiency" yes, will decrease.
And so

Weapons*Vweapons=Mpool*Vbullets+Mgases*Vgases

Even the outgoing "combustion products" = Mgases * Vgases
That's how they influence. The exhaust velocity is high, but the mass
9×18mm PM
Bullet weight, g 6,1 (PM) 5,4-5,8 (PMM) 3,7 (PBM)
Weight of powder charge, g 0,25

[3danimal]

Well, at first glance, yes, a bit short IMHO. But you need to look at how completely the gunpowder manages to burn out at such a barrel length.

Special gunpowder is selected that burns completely in the 330mm barrel.
The United States is OK in this area, EMNIP.

[3danimal]

The short life of the barrel is ensured with such pressures. And the ballistics is debatable

Ballistics are better than 7,62 and 5,56: good muzzle velocity and high lateral loading of the bullet.
The .227 Fury is definitely better than the .308 Win.
Rejection of 5,56 (only for combat units) is wrong, IMHO.

[Earnest]

Quote from AUL

So what's the problem?
And it is that tactics and operational art should control your weapons, and not vice versa.

Well, a very controversial statement! Try to attack a machine gun platoon with horse lava - you will be very upset! Or carry out Operation Citadel when the enemy has tactical nuclear weapons? Plan an operation, not taking into account that the enemy has a breakthrough of UAVs of different classes and they see your every move? Therefore, it is necessary to build tactics and operational art based on the performance characteristics of your and, of course, enemy weapons

I didn’t understand the essence of your objection - you repeated the meaning of the opponent’s phrase in it, just in other words

[bootlegger]

This is not a next-generation weapon, but a compromise and optimization with a retreat to previous positions. Due to the fact that at this stage of the confrontation between the shield and the projectile, the shield pulled ahead somewhat. And the energy of the projectile was no longer enough.
The next generation of small arms, in my natural understanding, should be somewhat different.
Now, in all designs associated with the use of chemicals, in which they are fuel or PAD, the detonation mode is being mastered.
This mode of chemical reaction allows squeezing an additional 15-40% efficiency out of the energy of chemicals. In jet engines, such work is underway.
Apparently something similar will happen with firearms. Considering what speeds the elements of fragmentation and cumulative ammunition have, the potential of such weapons can be very high.
The barrel of such a weapon will only serve as a guide without the need to hold pressure. A cartridge assembled according to the principle of an impact core can theoretically give a bullet a speed of 2-3 km per second.
These changes will give some options
There will be no need to make the ammunition heavier again and increase its caliber.
A bullet weighing 1-1,5 grams will have an energy of 5-000 joules with a recoil comparable to an AK 6000.
The weight of the ammunition will decrease and the ammunition capacity of the weapon will increase.
It is clear that there are technological difficulties along the way, but there are no more of them than on the way to create detonation jet engines.

[Decadence]

Correct me, but does it sound like you're pinning your hopes on a Gyrojet-type automatic fire weapon as the next generation weapon? Question: how to correct the flight of a rocket, given its significantly greater mass compared to a bullet? Question number two: won't the speed of the rocket bolt be slower than that of the bullet? I don't mind, but there are too many nasty design problems that require an obscure solution. And so, in many science fiction works there were weapons of this type, in warhammer 40000 this is generally one of the rare, very honorable classes of weapons.

[bootlegger]

No way. This is not about a jet-powered bullet, but about a bullet accelerated by the detonation effect, instead of just burning gunpowder.
Imagine ammunition working on the principle of "impact core", but in the dimensions of the cartridge. This is if it's oversimplified.

[Eule]

Quote: bootlegger

ammunition operating on the "impact core" principle, but in smaller dimensions

It has already been described in fairy tales and legends of the peoples of the world as a weapon of an alien ethnographic expedition. A kind of “magic wand” that gives one weak flash at the barrel when a grenade is launched, and a stronger one halfway to the target. Scottish fairy tales directly describe that after breaking through the armor, the body of the killed corrupt official was like jelly - that is, the effect of the shock cannonball in its purest form.

[Catfish]

as a next generation weapon

If things continue as they are, "next generation weapons" might look something like this.

[Terran ghost]

A bullet weighing 1-1,5 grams will have an energy of 5-000 J

For a 1 gram bullet, a muzzle energy of 5 kJ will require an initial velocity of 3162 m / s, 6 kJ - 3464 m / s.
For a 1,5 gram bullet, a muzzle energy of 5 kJ will require an initial velocity of 2582 m / s, 6 kJ - 2828 m / s.
But there is one petty "ambush". The formula for the air drag coefficient looks like this - Pv = cx·S·V*2·ρ/2. As we can see, V - the speed of the body here goes squared.
That is, even for an initial speed of 2582 m / s, compared with 900 m / s of the initial speed of a 7N6 bullet when firing from an AK74M assault rifle, the value of V * 2 will be 8,23 ​​times greater.

[bootlegger]

There is such a problem.
But it is possible to organize the compression of the impact core element to calibers of 3-4 mm and reduce the drag area by several times.
It is clear that it is not realistic to reduce the area by 8 times, but it is quite possible to reduce the area by 3-4 times.
Ready-made fragments in the form of 3 mm arrows are quite a working combat element in modern ammunition. This will also be a mass weapon for creating massive dense fire and a combat radius of 300-400 meters for it is quite sufficient. The defeat of targets at distances greater than these for hand-held small arms is already random.

[Terran ghost]

But it is possible to organize the compression of the impact core element to calibers of 3-4 mm and reduce the drag area by several times.

A caliber of 3-4mm and a decrease in the drag area at times compared to a 5,45mm caliber? ;)

This will also be a mass weapon for creating massive dense fire and a combat radius of 300-400 meters for it is quite sufficient.

The problem is that the era of mass, albeit not very trained, infantry with cheap weapons in individual terms as a significant force on the battlefield of modern warfare has passed.

[bootlegger]

Quote: Terran Ghost

A caliber of 3-4mm and a decrease in the drag area at times compared to a 5,45mm caliber? ;)

See for yourself.
For caliber 5,45 area 23.3 mm square
For 3 mm already 7 mm square.
Let the bullet be 2 gr and the speed is about 2000 m sec.
The recoil is about the same as for 5,45 mm, and the energy is about 4000 J.
That's bullet energy 7 by 62. Already a decent win.
For a speed of 2000 m per second, Pv = cx S V*2 ρ/2. Pv will be about 4,5 times higher than that of 5,45 caliber. So everything can work out..

[3danimal]

Let the bullet be 2 gr and the speed is about 2000 m sec.

How will you accelerate in a rifled barrel up to 2000 m / s?
Realizable - 1000 m / s, compared to 900 m / s for 5,45 mm, this is an increase in energy by 23%, while the return will increase by only 11%.

[bootlegger]

In the barrel, this bullet will only receive direction and acquire spin. All acceleration to the trunk.
In the barrel, the bullet will only lose speed.

[3danimal]

All overclocking WHERE?
A bullet in the barrel, powder gases, expanding, push it along the barrel with acceleration. That's how it works.

[bootlegger]

Quote: 3danimal

A bullet in the barrel, powder gases, expanding, push it along the barrel with acceleration. This is how it works

I know ...
Like the bow and arrow...
Have you heard anything about detonation and impact core?

[3danimal]

Remind me what happens to warheads during the formation of an impact core?
And it is impossible to "direct" and "give it rotation" in the barrel. It will cut off everything that interferes, losing some of the energy, and nothing more.

[bootlegger]

That is, roof-breakers and helicopter mines somehow work, directing the UYa a couple of hundred meters with an accuracy of a couple of meters?
The speed of 2000 meters per second is the speed of the BPS at the exit of the gun. How does it not cut anything? Cut off and okay. That's not the point. Obturators at the BPS also do not fly anywhere later.
I have already written a lot about this here, read above if you are interested. I don't want to repeat...

[3danimal]

That is, roof-breakers and helicopter mines somehow work, directing the UYa a couple of hundred meters with an accuracy of a couple of meters?

All this beats on dozens of meters with sufficient accuracy to hit a huge tank or helicopter.

The speed of 2000 meters per second is the speed of the BPS at the exit of the gun.

Do you understand the difference between an impact core and a BOPS?
So we are talking about sub-caliber arrow-shaped ammunition for riflemen? - Tried. Read about Steyr ACR for example. There speeds were 1400+ m/s. Insufficient accuracy, lethality, high cost.
IMHO, a reasonable option is a rifled barrel 40 cm, muzzle velocity 1000 m / s and a bullet with a high transverse load (at least 20 g / cm) in a caliber of 4-6 mm.

[bootlegger]

I understand the difference.
Run the shell of the shock core of two composite. The inner part adjacent to the explosive, made of light material, will play the role of a kind of wad, which will disperse and spin a heavy combat element in the rifling of the barrel and then lag behind it, like the obturators of a conventional BPS scatter
Speeds of 1400 m sec with traditional acceleration in the barrel, at high pressure and temperature, reduce the life of the barrel to a couple of thousand shots. In the case of UYA acceleration, such pressure and temperature in the barrel are not expected. So the resource can be normal.

Quote: 3danimal

IMHO, a reasonable option is a rifled barrel 40 cm, muzzle velocity 1000 m / s and a bullet with a high transverse load (at least 20 g / cm) in a caliber of 4-6 mm.

Here the possibilities to raise the energy of the path and save the caliber have already been exhausted.
Look at the resource of barrels for "hot cartridges" with speeds above 1100 m sec.
There, the barrels are designed for a couple of thousand shots. Pressure with a combination of temperature kill the barrel.
And your reasonable option is 5,45 or 5,6 at maximum speed. Vests make everything better and better, and to overcome them, you need to have bullets with an energy of more than 4000-5000 J.
The essence of the failure with arrow-shaped ammunition was the inability to disperse the ammunition itself to speeds above 1200 m sec and have an acceptable barrel resource. All the savings were achieved there due to the lack of rifling, which did not allow adequate accuracy to be achieved ..

[3danimal]

In the case of UYA acceleration, such pressure and temperature in the barrel are not expected. So the resource can be normal.

The inner part adjacent to the explosive, made of light material, will play the role of a kind of wad, which will disperse and spin a heavy combat element in the rifling of the barrel and then lag behind it, like the obturators of a conventional BPS scatter

Contradict yourself.

The speed of 2000 meters per second is the speed of the BPS at the exit of the gun. How does it not cut anything? Cut off and okay.

How can all this fit together?
Ammunition that creates an impact core tearing to shreds.
What chamber can withstand?
The resource of your rifled barrel will be 1 shot.

Look at the resource of barrels for "hot cartridges" with speeds above 1100 m sec.

Look at SIG: 33cm thick heavy barrel.
There was a cartridge (one of the first) for the M-16, with a muzzle velocity of 990 m / s.
That's why I suggested a 40 cm barrel, you can reduce the pressure, in comparison with the SIG Spear under .277 Fury.
Option:
Caliber 4,5mm (4,6 bullet diameter)
Bullet weight 3,5g
Cross load - 21g/cm^2
Muzzle velocity 1000 s/s
Muzzle energy 1750 j
10% less recoil momentum 5,56mm SS105
The specific energy of the bullet at the exit from the barrel is 105 J / mm ^ 2, against 94 J / mm2 for .277 and 77 J / mm2 for .308

[bootlegger]

What chamber can withstand?
The resource of your rifled barrel will be 1 shot.

There will be no patron.
He's not needed. Barrel pressure is not needed.

Quote: 3danimal

Caliber 4,5mm (4,6 bullet diameter)
Bullet weight 3,5g
Muzzle velocity 1000 s/s
Muzzle energy 1750 j
10% less recoil momentum 5,56mm SS105

Only these parameters are important. But they don't change anything. Today's bulletproof vests confidently hold 7 with an armor-piercing core and an energy of under 62 J. With quite adequate weight.
Your 1750J bullet will be of very limited use.
All this is sucked and counted 45 years ago. When they left the caliber 7,62 for 5,56 and 5,45. There is no longer any potential.
It's like ICE today. All changes are predictable in advance and only a fundamental change in design makes sense.
A gram of hexogen has an energy of about 5000 J, and smokeless powder is about 1,5 -2 times less. The same 2 grams of gunpowder in caliber 7,62 x54 transfers approximately 3500 J to the bullet, that is, approximately 50-60%. In the case of detonation, this may be 6000-7000 J.
That's where there is some potential.

[3danimal]

In the case of detonation, this may be 6000-7000 J.

Detonation in the shooter's hands? Then it should be disposable, kamikaze.

[bootlegger]

Is detonation a scary word for you?
In the primer of any cartridge, this process occurs.
Maybe you are not aware, but it is the detonation processes that are now trying to curb and adapt to improve jet engines.
This will be the last and final step in the perfection of engines powered by chemical energy and fuel.

[3danimal]

In the primer of any cartridge, this process occurs.

It is a matter of scale: in a capsule, this process is negligible and is sufficient only for ignition and burning gunpowder.
You are proposing to blow up a sufficient amount of conditional TNT in the hands of a soldier in order to create an impact core flying somewhere forward, to kill or maim this very soldier.
And the ideas to twist the impact core with barrel rifling ??

[bootlegger]

How is the explosion of 1 gram of hexogen fundamentally different from the explosion of a primer? It will not destroy anything with proper operation, I experimented. Exlaim the 2 grams of PA yourself and make sure. Impressive, but it does not carry everything around. Хотя пальцы беречь надо)
Also, if the 7,62 cartridge is blown up in your hand, you will not be in trouble either.
What is the difference between the twist of ammunition in the barrel, even at 2000 m sec?
More gentle rifles than at 1000 m and nothing?

[3danimal]

The fact that in the explosive capsule by 2 orders of magnitude (100 or more times) downward.
The gunpowder in the cartridge does NOT explode, but burns. That's why old cartridges are bad, because the overdried gunpowder in them tends to detonate, spoiling the weapon and presenting a danger to the shooter.
Gunpowder, or propellant explosives, are used as propellants for firearms and as fuel for jet engines. In composition, they are close to brisant explosives, but their combustion is more stable. The burning of gunpowder does not turn into detonation even at a pressure of several thousand atmospheres.

What is the difference between the twist of ammunition in the barrel, even at 2000 m sec?
More gentle rifles than at 1000 m and nothing?

For starters, your core will always be larger/smaller than the diameter of the barrel (shells, you know, are made on precision machines) and will inevitably ruin the old one.
The second point: that is why they came to smooth-bore tank guns, because at high speeds rifling any the forms are grinded down very quickly (and this is a projectile specially adjusted to the caliber).

[bk0010]

Instead of creating a new 6,8x51 mm cartridge, it would be better to optimize 7.62x51: the caliber is almost the same (51 is more important here than the difference of less than a millimeter in caliber), but the new weapon will be able to use old cartridges and rebuild factories less. And so that they don’t stuff them on the contrary, you can mark the cartridges with a color.

rather than throwing out a lot of money on new rifles and new cartridges.

The shooter is very inexpensive, for the whole army it’s about like one nuclear submarine.

[prodi]

Quote: bootlegger

The barrel of such a weapon will only serve as a guide without the need to hold pressure. A cartridge assembled according to the principle of an impact core can theoretically give a bullet a speed of 2-3 km per second.
These changes will give some options
There will be no need to make the ammunition heavier again and increase its caliber.
A bullet weighing 1-1,5 grams will have an energy of 5-000 joules with a recoil comparable to an AK 6000.
The weight of the ammunition will decrease and the ammunition capacity of the weapon will increase.
It is clear that there are technological difficulties along the way, but there are no more of them than on the way to create detonation jet engines.

you will have to keep the pressure (and, probably, at times), because in fact it will be an "explosion" of a "telescopic" ammunition in the chamber; and the diameter of the cartridge is also likely to increase

[bootlegger]

Do they hold pressure in the ammunition of the "impact core" type?
Here the problem will rather be in damping the chamber and reducing the impact of the residual shock wave on it.
Nobody says that everything will be easy. But it is precisely along this path that the most modern developments of jet engines are now going. They plan to solve the same issues of preserving structures when exposed to detonation ..

[prodi]

I don’t even know ... how to recalculate the developed pressure of an ammunition explosion at a point in space (in the open air), which forms an impact core at a speed of 5-6 km / s, for the bore

[bootlegger]

I agree that it's not just everything.
But here the bore will act as a guide for the ammunition.
The entire acceleration of the ammunition must occur before it enters the bore.
In any case, this is the last, albeit still theoretical, opportunity to somehow modify small arms and maintain its effectiveness in the usual dimensions.

[prodi]

there is no "theoretical" possibility here! Acceleration will start from the chamber, and how long it will last will depend on the charge. In terms of barrel wear, there is not much gain even from a "smooth" increase in pressure and velocity of the ammunition in the barrel. The only thing that can "compensate" for the wear of the barrel is the crushable leading belts of the projectile, or the "skirt"

[bootlegger]

And why pressure in the channel in this case? Fragments of a high-explosive fragmentation projectile sometimes even accelerate to 2000 m per second and do this in an acceleration section of 2-3 cm, if not less.
Ammunition acceleration will occur at the moment of detonation in a very short section. Then you just need to direct it, for which the bore will be needed. Wear will be only from the high-speed impact of the ammunition on the channel, and there will be no wear from pressure and temperature.

[prodi]

the strength (and dimensions) of the chamber, receiver and locking devices, as well as recoil will depend on pressure

[bootlegger]

I agree about the chamber and the box with locking mechanisms, and recoil is an impulse that depends on the speed of the bullet multiplied by its mass.
The pressure in the latter case is not a determining factor.

[prodi]

perhaps the only thing that is interesting in this idea is how much the "liquid metal" of the impact core will wear out the barrel

[Diverxnumx]

With this method of acceleration, the barrel will be disposable. And the accuracy of fire is approximately in that direction)). I will assume that a more realistic immediate prospect is sub-caliber arrows, for which there is already a considerable experimental backlog.

[bootlegger]

Here the possibilities to raise the energy of the path and save the caliber have already been exhausted.
Look at the resource of barrels for "hot cartridges" with speeds above 1100 m sec.
There, the barrels are designed for a couple of thousand shots. Pressure with a combination of temperature kill the barrel. And here the arrows and the smoothbore will change little. But how it will be only with friction at high speeds is still not really clear.

[Diverxnumx]

EMNIP, in a smooth barrel for a sub-caliber arrow, the resource was under 20000 (in Soviet developments). There, after all, it’s not metal for metal, but a polymer pallet for metal. And the pressure in the barrel there were moderate. So the near future of the riflemen is precisely for sub-caliber arrows.

[Diverxnumx]

Clarified - resource 32000 for a machine gun (!).

[bootlegger]

Arrows are not an end in themselves.
The goal is to have low recoil and high bullet energy while reducing the mass of ammunition.
As far as I understand, the speed there was a maximum of 1500 m per second, which is certainly good, but detonation can give more.
And judging by these experiments, the barrel without pressure and temperature will completely retain the resource even at speeds above 2000 m per second.

[Diverxnumx]

"And judging by these experiments" - which experiments can you tell in detail? According to the arrows - we have almost completed R&D. Acceleration by an explosion of an impact core through the barrel looks like outright game in the style of REN TV. "barrel without pressure and temperature" - i.e. Will the kill element move along the barrel at a speed of 2000 m / s without touching the walls? Then what's the point in the trunk at all? How will the lethal element keep the direction of movement (there is no rotation, it does not touch the walls of the barrel, right?)) in the air? Plumage? But will it be deformed by the explosion? What accuracy will this "shooter" have? In short, no need to shove the OZM-72 into the chamber)).

[bootlegger]

Here, explain what your arrows change in the principle? What are the expected gains and savings? Are you going to save money due to the lack of rifling in the barrel?
So this is a penny savings of 5-10%. It worked for guns, but here it is tears.
Reducing drag, weight and increasing speed is not a breakthrough, but simply copying the idea of ​​​​BPS in small calibers.
At the same time, small calibers do not allow solving the problem of accuracy in principle due to the laws of physics.
Your traditional arrows are a tried and tested and discarded idea.
Why should the impact core not touch the barrel? At a speed of about 2000 meters, the tank BPS interacts perfectly with the barrel. Yes, there is a resource of 400 shots, but are you sure that this short resource directly depends on the speed of the projectile? I'm not, there is also a huge pressure and temperature.

[Diverxnumx]

1. "Your traditional arrows are a long-tested, worked out and thrown out idea" - in the USSR this idea was practically brought to mind. Inertness, bureaucracy and the collapse of the USSR prevented implementation. Technically, R & D has already been completed with a good result. 2. Explain to me how the impact core (essentially, a drop of hot metal without a stable, highly accurate aerodynamic shape - without which accuracy cannot be seen) will ensure accuracy comparable to at least AKM? At least you can get into the wall of the barn at 100 m?))

[bootlegger]

Quote from Diver0

The USSR practically brought this idea to mind.

Nothing was brought there. They got energy savings from the lack of rifling, and in return they had lousy accuracy.

Quote from Diver0

Explain to me how the impact core (in fact, a drop of hot metal without a stable,

Run the shell of the shock core of two composite. The inner part adjacent to the explosive, made of light material, will play the role of a kind of wad, which will disperse and spin a heavy combat element in the rifling of the barrel and then lag behind it, like the obturators of a conventional BPS scatter. Too lazy to draw a picture..

[Diverxnumx]

1. "Nothing was brought there" - as I understand it, you just don't know. Well, then at least read N. Dvoryaninov. I can even give a tip - "Kalashnikov" 1/2018. 2. "Too lazy to draw a picture" - and it's not necessary, and it's clear that the idea, to put it mildly, is fantastic. To say the least.) I suppose you don’t even have to ask about the degree of at least a preliminary engineering study of your idea ...))

[bootlegger]

Yes, I read it all.
There is a dead end in accuracy. There are physical laws that cannot be repealed.

[Storog dvornik]

There are some considerations, maybe you will judge ...
The projectile can have any shape, preferably needle-shaped, and the recoil is reduced to zero using a proven recoilless scheme a la "faustpatron" ...
The amount of detonating composition is comparable to a weight of gunpowder and can be quite safe (probably) for others, or be compensated by the likeness of PBS ...
The shape of the launcher can be varied ...
But the classic "impact core" does not roll, since a liquid drop, it is a liquid drop, will collapse into spray like any cumulative jet ...
There is one idea, but without the appropriate licenses and permissions you can’t check it.
There are designs of multi-layer charges that explode in series, and give the projectile a series of shocks, increasing the speed of the latter quite significantly - it is stated, as I remember, up to 2000-3000 m / s at the muzzle ...
A couple of years ago I read open patents of the Russian Federation on this issue, with a description of experiments and types of explosives ...
For anyone, it's more like a rocket than a cartridge, or something in between ...
But in general, back in the Third Reich there were projects of such detonation accelerators ...

[bootlegger]

A rocket cartridge is not quite right. This is no longer a small weapon, but rather a kind of grenade launcher.
The impact core is not exactly liquid metal. Speeds of 2000 m are already comparable to BTS. This is a more or less stable piece. They fly 150-200 meters in crushers and helicopter mines completely in a monolithic state.
Once again I want to clarify. There is no goal to deliver this particular fragment to the target. He can simply perform the function of a wad and transfer energy to an explosive pool. And there is potential here.
A gram of hexrgen has an energy of about 5000 J, and smokeless powder is about 1,5 -2 times less. The same 2 grams of gunpowder in caliber 7,62 x54 transfers approximately 3500 J to the bullet, that is, approximately 50-60%. In the case of detonation, this may be 6000-7000 J. There is potential...

[Diverxnumx]

The chamber, as I understand it, will be disposable?))

[bootlegger]

I will say more!
It won't exist at all.

[Diverxnumx]

Gorgeous!)) Only a disposable heavy-duty container comes to mind as a "sleeve" or some variations of a recoilless scheme with a half-open chamber ... :)

[bootlegger]

Some part of the container sleeve may experience some deformation. In a non-key place, where there is no interface with other structural elements. I can still get together and make a drawing, as I see it, there is no time yet.

[Storog dvornik]

I really understand your idea, about 10 years ago, studying and marveling at a cumulative jet with a speed of up to XNUMX km / s, a similar thought arose ...
Example: exactly opposite the cumjet without a shell, fixing the bottom of the projectile. A shot, a jet of the required diameter is created and hits the bottom of the projectile, giving it acceleration ...
The calculation theory is primitive, the cone of the funnel and the diameter of the bottom of the projectile ...
Theoretically, there will be speed, but will the projectile itself and its "opa" withstand it? ... And certainly, no rifling, just a smooth barrel in any way ... For such (probably) ballistics speeds, this is a direct shot, of course for shooting. ..
And as for the grenade launch, not from a good life, the recoil momentum is what to do with, I’m not ready to count, but at 2-3 thousand km. departure 1-2 hm. the bullet will recoil like a shotgun +\-12 caliber ...

[Storog dvornik]

I read about one case of the death of a miner at the end of the 19th century while working with detonators for dynamite sticks ... The detonator banged, the man's skull was split ... The policemen were very perplexed ... It turned out that the copper cartridges / caps of the detonators were with a cumulative recess, and the exploded detonator, at the mountain of the fuse, was so lying in the hands that it didn’t tear off the fingers, but flew into the crock with a "shock core" ...

[bootlegger]

The history is known.
In the 90s, I myself experimented with UY based on explosives from PA. The balls from the bearing placed in the center of the cumulative funnels behaved very interestingly. The speed was exorbitant.
So I then thought that they can be like
then send .
The energy reserve there is huge; in principle, it can be directed into a barrel with rifling. It is possible to direct the swept element in obturators, like BPS.
The main thing here is not even the potential of the explosive detonation energy, but the ability to ensure the acceleration of the element without affecting the pressure and temperature of the powder gases on the barrel, which greatly limit the resource of the barrel in accelerating the bullet to speeds above 1200-1500 m sec.

[Storog dvornik]

You are a practical...
I don't understand why you need rifling?
After all, they are used for slow projectiles in order to stabilize the projectile ...
It is clear that the feathered projectile flies like an ancient but true arrow ...
My IMHO for the high-speed shot under discussion, a "needle" is needed
If the projectile flies at a speed of 2-3 thousand m at the muzzle, then stabilization is useless for a distance of 50-200 meters ...
-----------
The feed for comments has ended, if you are interested, we will talk outside.
Today, it is more fashionable among young people to forge "Damascus" ... and there are several people who will talk about pistols / crossbows and about their theory ...

[bootlegger]

Alas, arrow-shaped ammunition has problems with accuracy. In large calibers, it was decided and solved very difficult, but in small calibers it most likely will not work. The ratio of mass and inertial forces to destabilizing forces is too unfavorable.
There is not enough experimental base to develop this idea. I am far from thinking that this idea came only to me. And since no one develops it, then apparently not everything is so simple ..

[bootlegger]

Recoil is momentum.
Mass x speed
Proportionally less mass, higher speed, recoil will be the same. But there is no energy.
There M x C * 2/2
That is, a bullet of 1 gram will give a return like a bullet of 4 grams of AK 74 at approximately 3600. And the energy will have 6480 J, that is, more than 4 times more than the energy of an AK 74 bullet.
Therefore, everyone is trying to increase speed and reduce the mass of the bullet, well, the caliber ..

[Storog dvornik]

I am an amateur explorer...

[Eule]

Quote: bootlegger

and while theoretical, the possibility of somehow modifying small arms and

And I am for a different path. Remove the “long” weapon from the fighter’s hand completely. Body armor is already worn by everyone on the front line, make jumpers between the back and chest shields with adjustment, and hang the machine gun from the back shield on a lever mount so that it is above the shoulder.
Pros:
Three links of mobility between the body and the barrel are removed - the shoulder, elbow and wrist, the weapon becomes more stable
The recoil is distributed over the entire body armor,
The weapon itself turns out to be higher, that is, it sticks out less
Higher shooting accuracy, no hand tremors due to fatigue, cold or stress. Moreover, this parameter is the main one; I foresee an increase in accuracy by a factor of five in combat conditions, almost to the range level for this type of weapon.
Cons:
The cost of the suspension mechanism and sighting system (but it is still lower than the payment to the family of the murdered person)
Difficult to use - we need more educated soldiers, we will have to introduce the subject of "mechanics" in schools.
A battery will be required.

[Konnick]

This is the last century, no matter what cartridge cases are used in cartridges!

That's it. And I dream of such a weapon - I took aim, pressed the trigger and the 152mm high-explosive projectile selected in advance hit exactly where I aimed the crosshairs of the sight. Those. I have a sight with communication with powerful weapons in the rear. I saw a group of infantry, poured in from the AGS, which is also in my rear and is aimed at my sight. And here everything is which cartridge is better ...

[stankow]

You are gunners. To the front line with laser illumination :)

[Diverxnumx]

Well, as for me, it is possible with a laser from orbit. But your version is closer to implementation ...))

[Andrey Shpakov]

Whatever war you take, the consumption of cartridges per casualty is 3000 - 4000 pieces. You look at the video of how a soldier shoots in the heat of battle. Shoots in an approximate direction. What is the accuracy here, where the spring is located and what is the bottom of the sleeve. Small arms have a purely psychological factor, with the exception of the sniper. Artillery will do the rest. All this bullshit.

[IVZ]

Absolutely agree. The vast majority of "experts" do not understand that in battle they are the same targets as their counterparts (and the situation is by no means a duel) and their main task is to at least knock down the enemy's aim and prevent themselves from being killed in the first place, and beat off the enemy's cravings to amateur performances in - the second. Regardless of whether their unit is attacking or defending.

[AlAvis]

Quote: Negro

So far, only MTR.

SOCOM is not only not a customer, but it's not a fact that it will receive it. Currently overseeing the program but leaning more towards SCAR. SIG is for infantry of all kinds, plus M-4 stocks as PDW. That the author, that the commentators proceed from the standards of the last century - falling asleep with lead. Here, the center of everything is the sight, it was under it that the automatic-ammunition complex was designed. Hitting a target with the first shot by an average shooter, with the most simple use and training.

[IVZ]

"Hitting a target with the first shot by an average shooter, with the most simple use and training." Yes. If you have the opportunity to aim.

[AlAvis]

"Discourse on the number of hand grenades to defeat an enemy launching a guided missile from beyond the horizon". All conversations come from AK and tactics depending on its capabilities. The old weapons and their use have exhausted themselves, a new one is not expected in the near future, but there is great progress in electronics, and the Americans used it to the fullest. The sight is fully automated, aimed the aiming mark, pressed the remote button - you get a real point of impact, corrected the aiming and shoot. Nothing manually. When the electronics are turned off, it is fully operational as a conventional optical sight. At minimum magnification, it works like a red dot sight. It is planned to connect a target tracking system, but it requires replacement of the descent, therefore it is not included in the kit. An additional accessory is the FWS-I day / night IR sight (can also be used separately) with the ability to transmit a signal to helmet-mounted devices for firing from behind cover, to the commander or other soldiers. A variant of such use is https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/original.jpg and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KdVpcpOg10 And already under such a scope a weapon corresponding to it was created: powerful, accurate, long-range. This is the concept of defeating the enemy outside the return fire zone. Automatic fire appeared as a substitute for primitive sights - several shots with a very low probability of hitting, instead of one accurate one, and now it has become auxiliary (for example, cleaning rooms). Nobody equips tanks with small-caliber guns, although they have more ammunition.

[bovi]

Is it necessary to understand that the M5 will not be used without this sight? The price of the device and the rifle is comparable, no?
Is it necessary to understand that a bet has been made on a technical solution that improves skills that were previously supposed to be trained?

[MauZerR]

Americans have not used weapons without sights for a long time. For them, "ironsight" (mechanical sight) is a forced means of aiming in the event of an optics or red dot failure.

[MauZerR]

They have a SCAR (Mk-17). Maybe just buy more. earlier their "bright" minds did not want to take FN items only because of the price, but if SIG toys are priced 2 times more, then they will most likely pick up more Heavy SCARs.

[DienBienPhu]

Ar-15 side loading handle, the dumbest and most complex design I've ever seen. The recoil is great, if you don't use decompression ammunition, the magazine is too big and it only has 20 rounds, adding a viewfinder will make this thing close to 5kg. Another American program that failed and burned money :))

[AlAvis]

Recoil is less than 308. An example of automatic fire - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlrBEEG__1E

[psiho117]

The video talks about magazines for 20 and 25 rounds.
But as for me - this rifle is meaningless ...
But the machine gun will definitely be a success - a one and a half times increase in firepower, with a weight with a box of 100 rounds - like the M240L without cartridges.
It makes no sense to compare it with the "standard" M240 - it is 2,5 kg heavier.

[AlAvis]

On the issue of ammunition: how many short bursts will be needed to replace single shots? And the machine gun is designed for barrage fire and the destruction of group targets, if any. Everything else is the task of automata.

[bovi]

Most of all, this episode with the rearmament of the special forces resembles a bribe to the SIG. Mantras about penetration, wearable weight and accuracy are a search for arguments to talk about the topic because there are 6.5 RPCs. In my opinion, one of the arguments for the new cartridge (6.8) was the separation of the private and military demand markets. Well, SIG won specifically in the aspect of lobbying. At the heart of rearmament is the allocation of money, and not the search for a breakthrough solution.

[AlAvis]

And get lawsuits from other manufacturers who have ever participated in competitions - why didn't they have similar indulgences? Followed by Senate Inquiry into Undermining Defenses. Free competition has its advantages. I wrote about the "breakthrough solution" above.

[Carib]

You still need to carry out your scientific research and testing of enemy samples. To not be late. Everything moves and changes and the weapon must adapt to the average physical and average trained fighter. For special forces separately, everything is of their choice.

[SVD68]

The practice in the NWO again led to the same result that both the First World War and the Second World War led to - individual small arms are auxiliary. The main weapons are heavy weapons (artillery, tanks, aircraft, rocket technology). Shooting weapons are effective either in a group version (machine guns with a powerful cartridge, automatic grenade launchers), or for individuals with the necessary psychophysical properties (i.e., for snipers).
So the Americans will not be able to get any noticeable effect. Well, maybe a machine gun capable of competing with the PKM will be created.

[Baobabus]

This is a promising weapon. It will be in the first place for those who need it. And it is equipped to the maximum.

[Cyril89]

Comparison of different rifles by cold test. SIG MCX based on which the novelty failed the test https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tx31w9B8t8

[Cyril89]

[quote = Kirill89] Comparison of various rifles by testing in frost. SIG MCX based on which the novelty failed the test https://youtu.be/7Tx31w9B8t8

[Alexfly]

Another negative development .... Cartridge AK 7,62 is so-so ..

[Terran ghost]

On the left is a folding bolt handle above the magazine and trigger and a double, on both sides, reloading handle at the rear of the bolt carrier, like the “good old” AR-15.

Moreover, given the presence of a bolt carrier closer (forward assist) on the right side of the weapon, the side reloading handle is NOT rigidly connected to the bolt frame and is stationary when firing. The question is what for then it is needed if there is a "traditional" reloading handle for a system based on AR15 / M16 in the rear of the bolt frame - it is not clear.

The Suppressor is another SIG innovation designed specifically to keep gas out of the shooters' faces.

By the way, here is the answer about the effectiveness of a 13-inch (330 mm) barrel when working with a cartridge of this power. Not very effective, since essentially a low-noise firing device is required simply to suppress a muzzle flash that is uncomfortable for the shooter.

Testing this rifle, Ian McColin of Forgotten Weapons, stated that the M5/Spear is an excellent rifle that has "soft shooting"

Here you need to watch the video yourself, because the context is important. Or rather, the shooting is soft in comparison. With rifles chambered for 7,62x51mm? Yes, almost certainly. In comparison with the M4A1 / "Heckler-Koch 416" / M27 IAR chambered for 5,56x45mm? Well, it's really hard to believe - the laws of physics are usually impossible to outwit or bypass. Alas.

[Terran ghost]

In general, this is just another link in the chain of the fact that the time of mass armies recruited by conscription with cheap weapons and equipment in terms of the piece is running out. The time is coming for compact, professional armies with expensive, high-tech weapons and equipment.
Moreover, compactness here, of course, must be understood in relative numbers. For example, the Chinese PLA, with a population of more than 2 million people, is only about 0,15% of the total population of China (more than 1,4 billion people). By comparison, the US military (just under 1,4 million) makes up 0,41% of the total US population (329,5 million).

[AlAvis]

Quote: Terran Ghost

essentially a low-noise firing device is required

Not required, it has become a standard Pentagon requirement. Reduced gas pollution - compared to old-style mufflers. And the uniqueness in the use of 3D printing instead of assembly from small parts and a quick attachment system to the barrel.

[AlAvis]

Quote: bovi

enhancing skills that were previously supposed to be trained

Which are very expensive and long to train and would still require additional equipment, such as optics.
The "shop price" is not known, but under general contracts (development, supply, maintenance, accessories) it turns out: automatic 7.1 ~ 7.2 thousand, sight ~ 10.8 thousand. Whether all the machines will be equipped is not known: for sights, the total order for 10 years is 250 thousand pieces, and for machine guns so far for 4 years - 130 thousand pieces.

[MauZerR]

Quote: Terran Ghost

Moreover, given the presence of a bolt carrier closer (forward assist) on the right side of the weapon, the side reloading handle is NOT rigidly connected to the bolt frame and is stationary when firing. The question is what for then it is needed if there is a "traditional" reloading handle for a system based on AR15 / M16 in the rear of the bolt frame - it is not clear.

In a good way, it was necessary to leave this handle and remove the T-shaped misunderstanding. But the American warriors know better, they have written instructions for shooting under AR and the entire training system is built on this. Apparently the system is so cumbersome and mossy that it is easier to leave the old controls on a new weapon than to change the system. In general, I am more impressed with the FN handle, which can be rearranged with incomplete disassembly to either side. For bruised-finger complainers who hold AR-shaped barrels by the shaft, FN made the handle fixed in the latest version of the SCAR. IMHO all the handles not connected to the bolt are game, there are no forward assists on the AK and there are no problems with the SCAR, except for those who like to take the weapon by the shaft with the handle installed on the left, putting the thumb up, get it on the finger with this very handle.

[Alexfly]

Gorgeous ammunition, I hope to try ...;

[bootlegger]

Quote from Diver0

I suppose you don’t even have to ask about the degree of at least preliminary engineering study of your idea ..

Well you want!
Now even rocket engines based on the principle of detonation have not yet matured to concepts.

[kostya_a]

The author apparently did not fully understand the NGSW rearmament program.
1) They took the cartridge 6,8 for a reason, it is essentially 6,5 on steroids. In terms of ballistics, a very successful cartridge at a distance of up to 1000 meters. The 6,5 is now heavily used in sport sniping due to its high speed and little effect of wind on the bullet. Those. cartridge is very stable. The ballistic coefficient is higher than that of 308 Win Mag, the initial pressure is very high.
2) Sights. Also with the complex is a new sighting system from Wortex, with a ballistic computer. (There are rumors that the price is in the region of $10). Those. it is enough for the arrow to point the aiming mark, the ballistic calculator will make calculations, highlight the desired scale, all that remains is to press the trigger.
RESULTS:
Combat units will receive a high-precision minute complex, with a short barrel, with an aimed shooting distance of up to 1000 meters, a cartridge with high ballistics, and an average shooter. Those. essentially everyone in the platoon, the so-called Sharpshooter or Infantry Sniper. The task of the program is to apply high technologies to increase the distance of defeating the enemy and breaking through individual means of protection.
On 01.07, Konstantin Konev will speak on this subject, it will be possible to listen to his opinion, especially since there is more information on the other side.

[Acpirin]

AK with wooden butts with peeled lacquer, these machine guns are quite suitable for their purpose

Their presence on the video does not mean that the old AK is responsible for something there; with the same success, anything automatic under a mass cartridge can hang there (most likely here: "for lack of a better"). It says something completely different.

[MauZerR]

Quote from Aspirin

AK with wooden butts with peeled lacquer, these machine guns are quite suitable for their purpose

Their presence on the video does not mean that the old AK is responsible for something there; with the same success, anything automatic under a mass cartridge can hang there (most likely here: "for lack of a better"). It says something completely different.

Most likely what is, then they use it.

[Jonny_Su]

In the course of the Ukrainian campaign, it is clear that trained and effective infantry is the basis of urban battles. In this regard, the American innovation makes sense, they do not replace heavy infantry weapons with machine guns, and continue to work on improving communications and the command system. For now, we can see how the machine will behave in the real conditions of future conflicts.

[Siberian54]

Well ? Indulged in little things? Did each barmaley buy an American bronik? That's it, ala ulu .. it's time to make weapons for the exoskeleton and it will again turn out to be American .. 7+ - the caliber is optimal for any situation and really "paddle" steers! As the specialists of the USSR planned, up to 2050 "Kalashnikovs" are ideal for the mass army. And the hitch ... It's like in computers, every five years a new or modernized one, and here you need to carefully fuss with the experience of war with an adequate enemy on the outskirts of our empire

[acetophenone]

Quote: Shurik70

Quote: KCA

until a soldier removes a speck of dust from every chink

Well, yes ... Once he crawled across a field with grass - and the whole casing was covered in grass.
And don’t bring Slaanesh (and who else should you pray with such a weapon?) to shoot in a very dusty place - then you can’t even take off a cotton swab with alcohol that has boiled from the inside. Even the LGBT will not like this perversion.

Well, PPSh, PPD, PPS and DP were somehow cleaned. 4 years somersaulting in the mud.

[Baron pardus]

I recommend that the author, instead of talking, enlist in the American army and go to Iraq and Afghanistan. Our problems were this. They opened fire on us from machine guns of caliber 7.62x54, 7.62x51 and even 303 British and 7.92x57. And we, as a rule, had the M249 with us. That is to say, our patrol is coming. They open fire on us from 400-500 meters, but we can’t really get them. Not only that, in terms of range, at 300-400 meters, a 5.56 caliber bullet, even M855, has a much lower penetration. And the point is not only in bulletproof vests, but in ordinary walls. I mean, I personally was in the situation more than once. Even the Lee Enfields open fire on the patrol. Shoot 4-5 people. From a distance of 400-500 meters, we can’t get them, they fired at us, hit or not, it doesn’t matter ... and GONE. Sometimes they didn’t hit anyone except equipment, and sometimes they did. And the guys died and were injured. Just like the Lee Enfields were used against the Soviet Army in Afghanistan. At 400-500 meters Lee Enfield or BREN. more effective than both AKM and AK74. You will not put a chela with the M5 for each patrol of 7-240 people. There are simply not so many M240s. So we decided to make a caliber for which you can re-barrel the same M240 and M14 (by the way, AP10 is already being produced in this caliber). And there is nothing new conceptually in this caliber. Sleeve narrowed to caliber 6.8 from 7.62x51. The US already has a similar caliber. 6.5 Creedmoor (6.5 Creedmoor), is distinguished by high flatness, direct shot range (by the way, higher than that of 7.62x51), and penetration. 277 Fury is 6.5 Creedmoor on steroids, no more. Rifles of caliber 277 Fury have a greater direct range than 7.62x51, have greater penetration. That is, a patrol armed with such rifles will be able to adequately respond to the enemy. And so ... they crap on patrol from a BREN or DP-27, but we can’t get them with ANYTHING. In the sense of getting M4, they will get it, only those walls or stones or duvals behind which they are hiding, M4 will not break through. But Bran or Dp-27 are exactly the same walls, stones and duvals behind which we are hiding - they calmly break through. The competition for new weapons was adopted based on the results of the war in Iraq, and there we did not encounter much with the enemy in super duper bulletproof vests. To break through brickwork or a brick fence - yes, this problem has always been. M4 did not really cope with it, but to break through a super new body armor, our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq did not have such a problem.

[ifdru74]

those. Are they trying to shut up the problem of actions against the enemy’s Marksmen with a new cartridge and weapon? And who decided that the M4 is a superweapon that all fives with a barrel longer than 14 inches should be replaced with? So let him pay for the short barrel (but he, after all, will not pay, because his father / mother / uncle / acquaintance is a big man in Washington). Isn't it supposed to be a Marksman / machine gunner (who has something 7.62x51 with a long barrel) to give to each platoon? Or are patrols the stubs of platoons without a Marskman and a single machine gun? Well then - get it and sign it. Sending out a group of several boys to beat up an angry and motivated opponent is a bad tactic.
And no one said that war should be cheap. War must be economically justified.
Either you show the natives that they are weak - or the natives forbid you to leave places covered with normal weapons. There is no third.

[Baron pardus]

Patrols, it can be a platoon, a squad, and a small combat group of 5-6 people. A SINGLE machine gun (M240), not even in the department. In the M249 department, the same 5.56 NATO. There was no DMR when I was in Iraq in every department. Officially. That DMR was me. Since he shot the best in the platoon. But they gave me M16A2, old and beaten, but with a new barrel. And aim. First, they issued an M16 with the words “You are a doctor, you don’t go to clear houses anyway, but you guard outside, you don’t care what rifle you guard with, here’s an M16 for you. I had biathlon, I trained at the CHAYKA stadium in Kyiv), then they told me - "since you are standing outside and like that - you can just as well shoot those who run out of the house, or who open fire on our guys. They issued a sight, well, then it’s a matter of technology. The same 5.56, but the effective combat distance is greater than that of the M4 with its 14 "barrel, but still the DP-27 does not work at all against the BREN or there. I will hit the target from a distance of 500 yards. Not in the eye, of course, but in the chest - but if the enemy took cover behind a stone embankment or even behind an adobe wall or fence, then with 400-500m the M16 corny "did not penetrate". Of course, whether Enfield or K98, or DP-28 at the same distance this adobe do not notice the wall at all.
And there is no way out. Either arm all M14 soldiers or FAL there. Or switch to a new cartridge, which will be LIGHTER than 7.62x51 and have more flat ballistics and more penetrating power. 6.8X51 is just such a cartridge. The civilian version is already on sale. I repeat again. There is already a similar cartridge - 6.5 Creedmoor (aka 6.5x51). But given the fact that the charge of gunpowder in Creedmoor has not changed from 7.62x51 (it pushes a lighter and more aerodynamic bullet), this cartridge did not suit the Army. And 6.8x51 will be produced in TWO versions. Combat, where the lower part of the sleeve is steel, and the charge of gunpowder is increased compared to 7.62x51, and civilian (training), designation 277 Fury. The sleeve is brass, the charge of gunpowder is similar to 7.62x51. The civilian version is already on sale for civilians, and will be used by the Army for training (it is cheaper), but the army version, where the lower part of the sleeve is steel and the charge of gunpowder is reinforced, will be issued to soldiers only for combat missions, and, most likely, the civilian market will not hit at all. I am not only just a sergeant, I am a simple infantryman and a medic. I was told to go there and do that - I go and do it. You know, I only talk about how to return home alive and with all the spare parts, and how to complete a combat mission. And the first one is much more important. Orders are not discussed, and no one will tell the captain that they say, "Sir, congratulations, you are a dunce, the enemy has a more long-range weapon than ours." They go on patrol. Then they will report what and how. We had options that patrols of 10-15 snouts were forced to return, or request support because there were the same 10-15 snouts against us, but with weapons under a full-fledged cartridge. I really was on patrol, 12 people (3 battle groups) and a Humvee with Ma Duce. First flew to the Humvee. From the old M72. The Humvee was more than enough. The guys jumped out of it, escaped with minor shrapnel wounds and burns, and two heavily shell-shocked. Moreover, the machine gunner was shell-shocked .. Humvee and a machine gun on it - to smithereens. They shot this goat with an M72 (he shot from 100 meters, so they quickly discovered and shot him), we decided to move on. After 2 hours, 15 people opened fire on us. Not more. They had two DP-27s, and the rest were with K98s (when their helicopter pilots soaked, we examined the weapons, and found and looked at the shells in the position). And we couldn't do ANYTHING with them. They could not get around, because they could not suppress their fire. At a distance of 500m, lying among the ruins, we could not do ANYTHING to them. They got the M249, but they didn’t break through the barriers. M203 was unable to suppress the machine guns. Didn't get it either. At a distance of 400+ M from M203 it is difficult to hit something other than a huge barn, if you're lucky. Even under the cover of a smoke screen, we did not have time to get close to them to destroy them. It ended trite. We sketched chimneys, began to bypass them, and while we were bypassing them, they left. Helicopter pilots covered them already on the way out. And we called the turntables as soon as our Humvee was destroyed. And what happened. We have 5 wounded. 3 lightly wounded, 2 more seriously, plus two lightly wounded but not sickly so shell-shocked, with blood from the nose and ears, but nothing super heavy. They won't become cripples. And since you won't become a cripple - rejoice, you deserve "Purple Heart" and a little rest in the hospital. Our Humvee burned down along with a large-caliber one. The enemy has a half dozen killed. Looks like we're in a rut. but no. We foot soldiers didn't kill any of the terrorists. THEM were covered by helicopter pilots on the way out. I mean, our patrol turned out to be ABSOLUTELY useless. The spinner did the job. We just discovered an ambush. To issue cover from the M14 and M240 to the Kazdkhoi group - then they were simply not enough for everyone. Especially M14. Ma Duce on the Humvee was completely useless, as it was destroyed in the very first minutes of fire contact. The guys were lucky that no one was killed. But how easy it is for us to request support and how quickly it arrived, this is a huge trump card of our army: communication and interaction. And the fact that no one regretted sending Apache to help the under-platoon of infantrymen made it very clear to us that the Army did not care about us. And a HELICOPTER was sent for the wounded. We have a very well organized evacuation of the wounded from the battlefield. You need to copy it from us. If in Vietnam, as in the Second World War, for every one of our dead, there were 3 wounded. Now for every one killed, 10 wounded. That is to say, many more seriously wounded survive because of our excellent evacuation system and field hospitals. This also costs a lot of money.

I am a doctor, and I dare to assure you that the "Obsolete" 7.92x57 or 303 British do very interesting things with your tibia, especially the British (it is corny unstable and somersaults robustly), hitting such a bullet in the Humerus bone (I don’t know how in Russian ), this is a 2/3 chance of an amputation of the arm, since the bone is simply crushed into chips and the bone really needs to be reconstructed piece by piece. I still can't forget. Although I REALLY want to. And of the bullet wounds that I saw, the most vomiting was the arrival of 303 British in the sternum. The body armor didn't help. The guy died in my arms. But to see how this 303 opened his chest, I wish my enemies. There was minced meat, with fragments of bones, and you could see how the lungs were moving ...

In our army they immediately say "Don't be a stupid hero". Don't be a stupid hero, don't go on the rampage. The 14" barrel on the M4 is the result of Army requirements for infantrymen in Bradley and Stryker to be comfortable. By the way, for a long time the Marines had 20" M16s, and not cropped M4s. Recently, the Marines were also forced to switch to the M4, although the lower officer level resisted wildly. It is precisely because with the 5.56NATO cartridge that 6 inches of barrel length have a strong effect on ballistics. Personally, if someone asked me, I would not choose a bicycle and mess with a new cartridge, but would simply return to the Battle Rifle concept for caliber 7.62x51 NATO: FAL, M14 or G3 or something like that. But the army decided that they needed something ABSOLUTELY new. This is natural lobbying, and, as you know, NOBODY prevents our generals from buying shares in arms companies. Well, if the company has orders, then the shares go up in price - PROFIT. It was necessary to leave the intermediate cartridge in any case. But we thought that the army would switch to 6.8 TPC, or 6.5 Grendel, especially considering that the special forces were testing 6,8 TPC and were VERY satisfied. But the staff officers and commissaries decided differently. The rifle is expensive. And this is only half the trouble. If you shoot with an "army" cartridge, then you need a sickly muzzle brake / flash suppressor, which also costs money. Moreover, the Army cartridge with an enhanced charge of gunpowder burns barrels even faster than a civilian cartridge. And a civilian cartridge burns barrels faster than 7.62x51 (More pressure and initial speed). But the army and the generals decided, so it will be so. No one asks soldiers and sergeants, and even captains. Thank you for leaving the ergonomics with the M4, it will be easier to relearn.

[Visher]

All this fuss with ammunition is not worth a damn. The first question when writing any cartridge is its energy characteristic, its compliance with the task.
The conditions of the problem provide for taking into account the curvature of the terrain of the database theater, taking into account the height of the firing line above the ground. It is customary to calculate the height of the line under the condition of standing shooting. Conventionally, the curvature of the terrain allows you to shoot while standing up to 400 m, then, the shooter's sight factor when shooting from an open sight allows you to shoot at a growth target with the most effective rate at 300 m, subject to the defeat of 25% 20 rounds per minute.
The energy of the BP should provide at a distance of the same 300m the rise of a bullet on a trajectory of no more than half of the kill zone.
You can compose a cartridge of any power, however, the weight of the wearable ammo will negate all the advantage of ballistics. The task of writing a cartridge includes not only ballistic characteristics, but also the weight of the gun and barrel survivability and thermal stability and the shooter's visual ability to fire effectively.
In the conditions of the forest-steppe, mountainous and wooded areas, the firing distance is reduced to 15 m. In open areas, the firing distance increases to 700 m, however, when firing an arbitrarily powerful cartridge in mountainous terrain, the shooter cannot effectively take into account elevation changes and wind conditions, which already greatly affect shooting at a distance of 700m.
Thus, it is advisable to allocate sniper shooters and machine gunners with guns of more powerful energy in such theaters. The sniper solves the problem of hitting with accurate shooting, the machine gunner with the mass of a second volley. The effectiveness of fire damage is controlled by the officer in such a way as to complete the task by correctly spending the resource of the unit.
The unit's resource is not bottomless.
By increasing the caliber, the weight of the gun and ammo increases, but the endurance of a person does not grow, which means the radius of the effective action of the unit is less. A shorter radius of action leads to an increase in the time to complete the mission, or to the risk of hitting the unit during the time it takes to get to the place in the vehicle. The percentage of defeat in such is closer to 100.
If we consider this ammunition, it is excessively powerful, in conditions of wooded and rough terrain, its advantages are negligible. Its effectiveness is high when used at a distance exceeding the effective one of the enemy. On the fingers, shooting from a commanding height, subject to good visibility. Overview, the most important condition, the second condition, the enemy always has a comparable BP in the form of SV or RP, he will not sit still during fire contact, he will bypass from the side where there is no advantage of this BP. In the conditions of pursuit of the DRG with the specified BP, the DRG is driven into an ambush in such an area where the ambush group has more significant advantages than the BP. For example, the use of OTR with target designation, a minefield, etc.
It is clear that the indicated types of BP and weapons will not go into the infantry, which means Special Forces. In the fight against the DRG, other tools and tactics work; no one will play shooter with the detected DRG. The DRG is driven into the ass and there it calmly throws mortar or artillery fire.

[ifdru74]

in the light of the research, a contradiction has long been found: small caliber = small bullet mass + less drift. But whatever the ballistic coefficient is, the low mass and air resistance remain. This means range is decreasing. The large caliber strongly beats off the shoulders of the soldiers and the cartridges take up a lot of space, and also weigh a lot. Attempts to deceive physics with a large propellant charge do not work for anyone.
So all this throwing without serious fundamental breakthroughs in physics is a vulgar cut. Why can't you make money on a standard five/seven/half inch combination? Apparently the secret is lost. But if our "partners" are busy with this, then who am I to forbid them to cut astronomical budgets?

[Boris63]

Not at all a "gunsmith", but somehow it hurts the eye to read about gunpowder. Low energy for training, high energy for combat. So it seems like ammunition and ballistics should be different. And then what will they teach ... how to handle weapons and that's all, but accuracy in combat conditions?

[Bogatyrev]

But Lobaev thinks differently.
He believes that the adoption of 6,8 mm as the main cartridge in combination with powerful mass sights with night mode will enable ordinary shooters to effectively hit targets at a distance of up to 1300 m, which only snipers and machine gunners can now. And this is no longer nonsense.

[LuidmilaN1956]

Next generation weapons: the problem is not simple

Isn't it time for us to remember this?