Do we need helicopter carriers?

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Do we need helicopter carriers?

I continue my reflections on the role and place of rotorcraft in the Russian Navy, begun in the article "Helicopters for the Russian Navy". Today we will talk about helicopter carriers of a special construction.

The need to create a helicopter carrier, like any other class of military equipment, is determined by the tasks facing the armed forces of the country in general and its naval fleet in particular. Undoubtedly, the task of combating enemy submarines is of key and priority nature for our fleet. The thing is that the Russian fleet has a strategic nuclear weapons and must, if necessary, ensure its application. And one of the most terrible threats to our SSBNs are the multi-purpose nuclear and non-nuclear submarines of the United States and NATO. They need to be able to identify them in peacetime, and even in wartime - to destroy them without any pity.

Of course, the Russian Navy does not have strategic missile carriers in the Black and Baltic Seas. However, non-nuclear submarines of NATO countries can threaten our ships there, and such a threat should not be ignored. Consequently, anti-submarine warfare is relevant for all four domestic fleets. But what is the role of helicopters in countering submarines?

Against the underwater threat


In a previous article, I pointed out three fundamental drawbacks of PLO helicopters - their combat radius, search performance and payload are several times (and in the case of a combat radius, by an order of magnitude) inferior to aircraft of a similar purpose. The conclusion is obvious - it is advisable to use PLO helicopters either as a means of enhancing the anti-submarine capabilities of combat surface ships, or where PLO aircraft cannot operate for some reason, or their use is irrational. So, for example, if the frigate’s hydroacoustic complex recorded contact with an enemy submarine, which was immediately interrupted, then in order to restore it, it would be much more reasonable to raise a helicopter based on the frigate than to call and wait for a patrol aircraft aviation.

Consequently, in the fight against submarines, very important, but still secondary tasks are assigned to helicopters. And this means that the construction of specialized anti-submarine helicopter carriers clearly contradicts this logic and, in essence, is an attempt to make the helicopter the main means of anti-submarine warfare. How justified is this?

Obviously, an anti-submarine helicopter carrier makes sense if it is able to provide round-the-clock patrols for its rotorcraft "passengers". But how many helicopters should be on its deck for this? The regime in which aircraft make two sorties a day is considered very stressful. This does not mean, of course, that a helicopter cannot make three sorties or more per day; such “spurts” are possible for a short time. But long-term operation of equipment in such a mode is akin to trying to run a marathon distance at a sprint speed.

Suppose we have helicopters capable of patrolling at some distance from the ship (say, 100–150 km) for two hours. This is a very good indicator for an anti-submarine helicopter. Therefore, making two sorties a day, one helicopter will be able to provide 4 hours of patrol. But there are 24 hours in a day, and accordingly, to ensure the round-the-clock presence of a helicopter in the air, we will need six helicopters. However, for a full-fledged patrol, one helicopter is too little - due to the relatively modest payload, they should work in pairs. One carries out the search, the second - the defeat of the target. And this means that in order to ensure round-the-clock hunting for submarines, a helicopter carrier must have an air group of 12 helicopters.

But even such an air group will not be enough for a PLO helicopter carrier. After all, the detachment of forces calculated above will ensure round-the-clock duty of 2 helicopters somewhere 150–200 kilometers from the ship, and who will deal with its own ASW?

You need to understand that the task of searching for enemy submarines in a large area, which we impute to a helicopter carrier, and the task of anti-submarine defense of the helicopter carrier itself are two different tasks that an air group of 12 helicopters simply cannot solve simultaneously. In order to control the sea in the immediate vicinity of a helicopter carrier, say, within a radius of 35–50 km, at least one more helicopter is needed around the clock. In total, if we want to have a helicopter carrier capable of controlling significant water areas and at the same time providing our own anti-aircraft defense, then we need a ship for 18 helicopters. More precisely - even by 20, because, in addition to anti-submarine, it is necessary to have a couple of rescuers.

To some, my numbers may seem far-fetched, but there are facts that can hardly be ignored. The air group of the first domestic anti-submarine cruisers "Moscow" and "Leningrad" included 12 PLO helicopters (another Ka-25TsU and one Ka-25PS were attached to them), but this was not enough. Therefore, the ships of the next project 1143 in the anti-submarine version were supposed to carry up to 20 PLO helicopters. And it would not be a mistake to assume that it was precisely this number that was required to provide the PLO of the formation led by the TAVKR, and to organize "free hunting" at a considerable distance from such a formation.

Size matters!


Obviously, a helicopter carrier capable of intensively operating an air group of two dozen rotorcraft cannot, by definition, be small. Let me remind you that the domestic anti-submarine cruisers of the Condor, Moscow and Leningrad types had 12 tons of standard displacement.

At the same time, their air group consisted of only 14 rotorcraft, which weighed half the weight of a modern helicopter of a similar purpose. Yes, and the language does not turn out to be successful “heliports”: a large superstructure created fair air turbulences over the flight deck, seaworthiness and conditions for the crew were also far from desirable.

These shortcomings, apparently, are deprived of the modern Japanese helicopter carrier Hyuga.


The ship is capable of carrying 11 helicopters, but has a much more impressive standard displacement - 14 tons. But we need not 000, but 11, and even add defensive weapons, and provide for an installation for launching "Caliber" in the anti-submarine version ... Here it is already worth talking more about 20-18 thousand tons of standard displacement.

And such a ship will indeed be self-sufficient in terms of PLO, but ...

Patrol plane or helicopter carrier?


Two helicopter patrols (one of two machines, the second one single), which a helicopter carrier with an air group of 18 rotorcraft is able to constantly support in the air, would fly 500 km per hour (each 250 km), and per day - 12 km. A detachment of 000–4 aircraft of the type of our Il-5N, providing round-the-clock patrolling of one aircraft in the air at a cruising speed of 38 km / h, will cover a little less in the same time - 460 km. It seems that helicopters have a small gain, but it is imaginary, because one patrol will have to constantly “turn circles” around the helicopter carrier in order to ensure its safety.

Thus, one patrol will be involved in "tight control of a small area", which, of course, reduces the size of the surveyed area. At the same time, more modern than our Il-38N, the American Poseidons with their speed of 800 km / h during the round-the-clock patrol will already cover 19 km and will have a tangible advantage over the helicopter carrier air group.

This also adds the advantage of mobility. Let's compare the capabilities of an anti-submarine helicopter carrier with patrol aircraft somewhere in the Black Sea. It must be said that it is quite wide - from the Romanian Constanta to the Georgian Batumi is about 1 kilometers.

For example, an input was received - to search for enemy submarines in the Constanta area. Il-38N, having taken off from the airfield, say, in Simferopol, will “walk” to Constanta, which it will reach in an hour from the moment of takeoff. But with a helicopter carrier, alas, everything is much worse. If he received an order to search in the Constanta area, then in order to move out of Sevastopol, he would have to go at an economic speed of 16 knots for about 5 hours. And after that, approaching Constanta by 250 km, raise helicopters, which will take about an hour to reach the search area.

But, let's say, two hours have passed since the Il-38N took off. By this time, he has already been searching in the Constanta region for an hour, and suddenly - a new input: it is urgent to check the Batumi region. Well, no problem - having a combat radius of 2 km, the Il-200N, even having flown for 38 hours, will advance to the Batumi region without refueling and will be there in less than 2 hours, going at cruising (not maximum) speed. Or it can be recalled “for winter quarters”, and another aircraft of the same type can be sent to Batumi - then it will arrive in Batumi even faster.

Another thing is a helicopter carrier. If he receives an order to change the search area from Constanta to Batumi two hours after leaving, then by the time he receives the order, he will not have time to “look” at Constanta - he still has almost three hours to go to her only until the line of lifting helicopters into the air. And in order to advance to the same line to Batumi, the ship will have to turn around and go about 600 km to get closer to 250 km to Batumi, for which it will take more than 16 hours at an economic speed of 20 knots.

The example, of course, is exaggerated: nevertheless, I took a "run" along the widest part of the Black Sea, but it is still quite obvious that the helicopter carrier is very much inferior to patrol aircraft in terms of mobility and response speed.


Further. If such a need arises, then 4-5 patrol aircraft, lifted into the air at the same time, are able to "sift" the water area of ​​​​a monstrous area in a few hours. A helicopter carrier, even if he somehow manages to lift all 18 of his PLO rotorcraft into the air, cannot cover such an area even close - simply because of the small radius of action of helicopters.

On the question of the criterion "cost / efficiency"


It is quite obvious that the search performance of a squadron of 5 patrol aircraft is, as it were, not even greater than that of a specialized PLO helicopter carrier, and at the same time, the aircraft are much more mobile. And what about the comparative cost of these solutions?

Modernization of Ka-27 helicopters into Ka-27M cost from 349 to 379 million rubles per vehicle (2017). The construction of a new helicopter, obviously, would have cost much more - no less than 550-600 million rubles, but rather even more. In those same years, a modern fighter "pulled out" about 1,5 billion rubles. Thus, it will not be a mistake to assume that a modern PLO helicopter will cost from a third to a half of a modern fighter. Let's take a third.

At the same time, the newest American Poseidon costs $115-150 million, that is, it is about a quarter more expensive than the contemporary American fighter. The proportion suggests that one modern PLO patrol aircraft will cost about the same as 4 specialized PLO helicopters.

But this means that a group of 4–5 patrol aircraft will cost only 16–20 PLO helicopters. That is, by investing in patrol aircraft, we will spend about the same amount as on the anti-submarine air group of a helicopter carrier, but at the same time we will get at least the same search performance, much better mobility and (cherry on the cake!) We will not have to build a helicopter carrier of 18 thousand .t displacement.

The benefit on the scale of "cost / effectiveness" is undeniable.

Of course, I can be reproached for not taking into account the cost of airfields for aircraft, but here is the thing - for an air group of 18–20 helicopters, a ground heliport is also needed, but 5 PLO aircraft will not require any expansion of the existing airfield network - not the size of the squad. And there are a lot of factors in favor of patrol aircraft, which I have not mentioned yet.

Here, for example, is an inter-theater maneuver: a detachment of patrol aircraft can be relocated from one fleet to another in a matter of hours, well, in a few days, if accompanying cargo is transferred by transport aircraft. It will take weeks for a helicopter carrier to do this.

In any conflict, intelligence information about the enemy is worth its weight in gold, and a patrol aircraft equipped with a much more powerful radar, an electronic intelligence station, etc., etc., which are also controlled by individual operators, will generate a much larger flow when patrolling information than PLO helicopters.

In addition, a patrol aircraft is generally more resistant to air threats than a helicopter. Simply put, more powerful electronic intelligence and a much higher speed give the patrol aircraft a better chance of noticing unwanted attention in time and avoiding impact. Typically, patrol aircraft do not have close air cover.


Ride of the Valkyries

By virtue of the foregoing, a patrol aircraft is self-sufficient to a certain extent, but a helicopter carrier is not. An aircraft carrier of about 18 thousand tons of standard displacement is a very tasty target. Yes, by increasing the air group to 18 helicopters, the helicopter carrier will be well protected from submarines. But this does not remove the need to cover it from attacks by aircraft, surface ships, and coastal missile systems. Even with its own powerful anti-aircraft and anti-missile weapons, such a helicopter carrier will need an escort of at least 2-3 ships of the frigate and corvette classes, ideally one destroyer and a couple of frigates.

Such a connection is already a great force if it includes modern ships. But it is still not self-sufficient, and needs air cover. The radar station of a helicopter acting as an anti-aircraft defense system can, of course, reveal the surface situation at a distance of up to 250-300 km from the order or detect low-flying cruise missiles (if they approach from the side where the helicopter is located, and this may not be), but it is of little use for airspace control.

About the air defense / missile defense of an anti-submarine helicopter carrier


Again, we have two options. You can try to cover the connection with the helicopter carrier by land-based aviation forces, or you can try to give its air group some kind of air defense and missile defense capabilities. Which?

In my previous article, I came to the conclusion that attack helicopters are useless for air defense of naval formations. At the same time, in my opinion, AWACS helicopters may well be useful for detecting low-flying targets outside the control zone of shipborne radars. But this task, albeit with less efficiency, is capable of being performed by PLO helicopters, which today need to have a powerful radar. However, I have encountered justified criticism of these theses, for which I am sincerely grateful to the VO reader, who writes under the nickname "bayard".

My respected opponent noted that, provided that the attack helicopter is equipped with a powerful radar, similar to that planned to be installed on the MiG-29/35, and modern air-to-air missiles, then such a helicopter, in conjunction with an AWACS helicopter, will be able to effectively fight even with a massive attack by low-flying cruise missiles while they are outside the radar control zone of warships.

Without disputing the arguments of a person who is familiar with the work of anti-aircraft missile systems firsthand, I will try to imagine the implementation of such protection on the anti-submarine helicopter carrier I described above.

It is obvious that the task of a somewhat reliable air cover against cruise missile strikes can be accomplished only if at least one AWACS helicopter and one attack helicopter are on round-the-clock duty in the air. Taking into account the fact that their patrol time is approximately equal to the PLO helicopter, we get the need to base another 12 helicopters on the ship - six AWACS and six strike helicopters.



Thus, the size of the air group of our helicopter carrier increases from 18-20 to 30-32 helicopters, and the displacement will go far beyond 20 thousand tons and amount to offhand 24-26 thousand tons. By the way, the Soviet development of an auxiliary helicopter carrier (project 10200 "Khalzan") it just reached 24 tons of standard displacement with a minimum of protective equipment and an air group of 000 helicopters.


How much will such a helicopter carrier cost? The combat ship closest in size and design to the helicopter carrier designed above is the Project 23900 Avalanche amphibious assault ships (UDC). They are somewhat larger (30 thousand tons of standard displacement), but relatively slow-moving, carry few defensive weapons, and their air group is half that calculated above. At the same time, their cost, according to preliminary estimates (in the open press), exceeds 50 billion rubles per ship in 2020 prices. This, of course, is the cost without the air group, but it may not reflect all the costs of building the ship. Obviously, the helicopter carrier "designed" by us will hardly cost less.

Helicopter carriers and ... helicopter carriers


Here I would like to note one feature of the cost of helicopter carriers. The cost of these ships in the world varies greatly. The same Mistrals, for example, were traded for 600 million euros, but if you wish, you can find a helicopter carrier for $ 40 million. Why is that?

Of course, you should always keep in mind the specifics of pricing - in some cases, we are talking about the cost of building only the ship itself, without "filling" with weapons and equipment, and in some - a fully equipped product, "ready for a campaign and battle." But much more important is that this class includes ships that are very different in their capabilities.

In one case, a real warship is being built, having both a flight deck of considerable size, and the necessary systems for storing and supplying fuel and ammunition to ensure intensive flights of the air group. It accommodates the necessary equipment and personnel for inter-flight maintenance and repair of helicopters, installs all the radar systems necessary for a warship, flight control systems, electronic warfare systems, setting traps, defensive weapons, etc., etc. And this is a helicopter carrier.

In another case, they take the hull of a container ship, draw circles on its deck so that the helicopter understands where to land, and ... that's it. And this is also a helicopter carrier. It is clear that the capabilities of the second cannot be compared with the potential of the first, even with the formal equality of displacement and the number of air groups, but there is one class of ships!

Alas, for some reasons that are not clear to me, some authors of articles completely lose sight of this point. It seems to them that through cosmetic repairs it is possible to turn some tanker or ro-ro ship into a full-fledged helicopter carrier - alas, but this is not so. Of course, no one interferes with equipping a tanker with a flight deck, but this will not make it a helicopter carrier: such a ship simply cannot ensure the intensive use of its air group.

It is possible, of course, to carry out a large-scale modernization and supply the “recruit” with everything necessary: ​​but you need to understand that in this case, at best, the hull will remain from a civilian ship, and even then it will be seriously altered, and the cost of such a ship will come close to a specially built helicopter carrier.

But efficiency is not. Simply put, a civilian ship is designed to perform certain tasks, not related to military operations, and is not optimal for war. A very good example of the above is the USS Lewis B. Puller (ESB-3). It was built as a supply ship, that is, not even quite like a civilian, but as an auxiliary ship of the battle fleet, although, of course, it was not a warship. And so the Americans decided to convert it into an expeditionary naval base. For this, a flight deck, a helicopter hangar, and storage facilities for ammunition, fuel, equipment, consumables and repair parts were installed on the ship.


But at the exit, the Americans received a ship with an empty displacement of 39 tons (often mentioned eighty-seven thousand tons, apparently, this is the full displacement of the ship before modernization), providing basing ... as many as four transport helicopters and the same number of unmanned anti-mine unmanned boats. It is obvious that a special-purpose amphibious assault ship, having half the displacement, is capable of carrying a multiple times larger payload. The same Mistral, with a standard displacement of 900 tons, carried up to 16 transport helicopters and 500 landing craft.

More features, more costs


Let's try to calculate the cost of equipping an ASW helicopter carrier with a dozen attack helicopters and AWACS. Suppose that a good helicopter carrier with an air group of 32 helicopters and capable of supporting 5 helicopters in the air around the clock (three PLO, one strike and one AWACS) has a standard displacement of 24-25 thousand tons and a cost of 50 billion rubles. The per ton cost is about 2 million rubles per ton.

A helicopter carrier, whose air group consists exclusively of PLO helicopters and rescuers, will, as mentioned earlier, be six to seven tons lighter, but, in my opinion, it would be wrong to reduce its price proportionally, that is, by 12–14 billion rubles. There is a lot of expensive equipment (such as a surveillance radar, an anti-torpedo system, etc.), the amount of which does not depend on the size of the ship. Let's determine the rise in the cost of a helicopter carrier - 10 billion rubles in 2020 prices.

The cost of an attack helicopter tends to be a billion, but we are talking about serial aircraft for the Air Force - adapted to the sea, and even equipped with a powerful Ka-52 Katran AFAR, which will clearly require more. Real Ka-31s were delivered for 406 million rubles back in 2008, the inflation calculator gives 960 million rubles by 2020, but we need something more modern! Thus, an additional air group of 12 helicopters will cost us at least another 12 billion rubles, but rather more. In total, the total cost of providing an “anti-missile” helicopter carrier patrol tends to 22 billion rubles.

Everything would be fine, but in 2020 the cost of the multifunctional Su-35 was about 2 billion rubles, that is, such a strengthening of the helicopter carrier will cost the price of 11 heavy fighters. Taking into account the fact that Su-35s have a very long flight range, a dozen of these machines are capable of providing round-the-clock duty of a pair of fighters almost anywhere in the Black Sea. And something tells me that two heavy fighters are much more useful for air defense / missile defense of a ship formation than a pair of attack helicopters with air-to-air missiles and an AWACS helicopter.

Conclusions


We can build a large helicopter carrier and its air group of 32 helicopters, including PLO, AWACS and attack helicopters. But we can use the same funds to create a regiment of multifunctional fighters (of the Su-35 level), five good patrol aircraft, and we still have funds to purchase four medium-sized AWACS aircraft (if we had them, of course).


In the first option, we will get a helicopter carrier that will be quite capable of fighting submarines in the theater, but subject to all the restrictions mentioned above. He will be able to provide control of the air situation only in the immediate vicinity of the ship. Thanks to the use of a “bundle” of AWACS helicopters and helicopters capable of hitting low-flying targets, this helicopter carrier will be able to provide itself and its order with an increase in the effectiveness of air defense systems by 20–30% and significantly expand the ability to combat anti-ship missiles. Also, this ship can be used to destroy enemy light surface forces operating without air support.

If PLO helicopters are completely or partially left in "winter apartments", and attack helicopters are taken on board instead of them, then the helicopter carrier will be a good help for the landing operation. But still, here the helicopter carrier will play an auxiliary role, since its air group is unable to gain air supremacy, and strike capabilities against land targets will clearly not be sufficient.

All this, of course, is not bad, but, in my opinion, investing in land-based aviation provides much more opportunities. By virtue of the previously stated arguments, I can assume that patrol aircraft will cope with the search and destruction of submarines much better than a helicopter carrier. Let's not forget that a helicopter carrier needs an escort of at least two or three ships of at least a corvette class.

This does not mean, of course, that the escort ships cannot perform any other combat missions, but still the need to protect the helicopter carrier fetters them to a certain extent. If we choose land-based aviation, these ships, having air cover, can be dispersed over a large area, thereby realizing their ASW potential much more fully.

Four AWACS aircraft are capable of providing round-the-clock control of most of the airspace of the same Black Sea, which is completely incomparable with the capabilities of a patrol of AWACS helicopters. At the same time, AWACS aircraft will not operate alone, but under the cover of a pair of heavy fighters: given that only half of the regiment will be involved in such patrols, the second half, being in full readiness for departure, will be able to very quickly strengthen the air patrol.

Striking potential? Undoubtedly, the helicopter carrier possesses it. But it is also indisputable that the regiment of heavy fighters is much higher.

A regiment of multifunctional heavy fighters, operating with the support of patrol aircraft and AWACS, is an excellent application for ensuring air supremacy or, at least, for a significant complication of enemy aviation operations over the water area, which a helicopter carrier cannot give in principle. The "patrol aircraft - AWACS - fighter" link is much more resistant to any emerging threats than the helicopter carrier air group. Naval aviation fighters are capable of assisting the Aerospace Forces in a conflict of any intensity: from nuclear Armageddon to "peace enforcement" of small, but who knows what they imagined countries (08.08.08), and in general are much more versatile than a helicopter carrier.

Of course, there are still questions about the cost of basing - more than three dozen fighters, patrol aircraft and AWACS require a separate air base for themselves. It is difficult to determine the cost of its construction, but it may well amount to 55–75 billion rubles. This is, of course, expensive, but you need to understand that:

1. Helicopter carrier rotorcraft also need their own airbase. Of course, it will cost less, since it does not require a long runway, but everything else is needed! Even if we assume that the heliport will cost a third of the air base for aircraft, it will already be 18-25 billion rubles.

2. A helicopter carrier definitely needs an escort. If we assume that the task of escorting will completely distract at least 1 frigate (simpler than 22350) from other tasks, then it will still cost at least 30 billion rubles.

3. A helicopter carrier also needs infrastructure - a berth, electricity and heat supply, and a corresponding expansion of capacities that produce these energy carriers. That's a few billion more.

That is, the construction of infrastructure for ground aviation looks more expensive, but still not fatal, but this option provides more opportunities than a helicopter carrier.

But does a helicopter carrier really have absolutely no advantages over land-based aviation? Of course, there is - it is capable of operating at a considerable distance from the coast, where aircraft from coastal airfields simply cannot reach. But where and how to use this advantage? There are simply no places on the Black Sea where aviation from the Crimea or from jump airfields on our territory cannot reach. Barents? Roughly the same. Baltic, Norwegian Sea, Far East? Alas, if our helicopter carrier, in the event of a serious conflict, dares to stick out beyond the cover of ground fighters, then it will be instantly destroyed there.

And in a frivolous conflict? And in a conflict with a frankly weak country, albeit remote from the combat radius of our ground aviation, not a specialized helicopter carrier, but a universal landing ship with a decent air group on board will bring much more benefit.

Can we give the helicopter carrier described above the ability to carry troops? Theoretically, yes, we can. But you need to understand that if we want a ship that is capable of intensively operating three dozen helicopters, and transporting a battalion of marines with equipment, for which it needs an additional cargo deck, and a dock, and landing craft, and cabins for accommodating marines, and an infirmary etc. etc., then we get something like the UDC "America", which was created for similar tasks. That's just the standard displacement of the American "America" ​​with might and main tends to 40 thousand tons, and the construction of a series of such ships will be comparable in cost to an aircraft carrier program.


Another thing is the creation of a medium-sized UDC, like the same Mistral. Such ships really have their own niche and purpose, which they are able to realize in the best way: we are, of course, talking about landing troops. But even in a global conflict, such a ship will not be completely useless - by taking on board PLO helicopters (as many as possible), it will be able to support other anti-submarine defense forces in the theater. But still, this is an auxiliary function of the UDC, with which it will cope even worse than the PLO helicopter carrier, and its main task is precisely the landing.

Thus, I come to the conclusion that the only helicopter carrier that can really be useful to the Russian Navy is a universal landing ship. However, the tasks in which he specializes are secondary for our fleet, and building such ships at a time when the security of our strategic missile submarines is not ensured, in my opinion, is completely inappropriate.
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  1. +22
    16 June 2022 05: 00
    Thus, I come to the conclusion that the only helicopter carrier that can really be useful to the Russian Navy is a universal landing ship.

    There is certainly logic in your reasoning. It remains only to note the following: in order to be considered a full-fledged maritime power, and not a country whose coasts are washed by twelve seas, you need to have warships of the far sea zone or sit on ... and not twitch.
    There is no concept for the development of a modern fleet in Russia, just as there are no those remarkable naval commanders whose victories Russia can be proud of.
    So far, there is a skirmish between managers - what is profitable and what is losing. As a result, the construction of yachts of large and small displacement for personal use wins.
    1. +28
      16 June 2022 06: 19
      There is no concept for the development of a modern fleet in Russia
      - we don’t even have a concept for the development of Russia ....
      1. -15
        16 June 2022 07: 31
        1. As we get rich, we will build everything - both new patrol planes and helicopter carriers.
        1. +8
          16 June 2022 07: 46
          As I understand it, this is again from a series of parables about the padishah and the donkey ....
        2. +1
          16 June 2022 20: 07
          Reading the article, I remembered one quote: if you want to ruin a small country, give it a cruiser. Like Churchill said.
          Several helicopter carriers, the budget of the Ministry of Defense, already bursting at the seams and offshore, will simply burst. Better several aircraft carrier groups, like the Americans. Then the ground forces can definitely be disbanded, there will be no money left even for a solarium for tanks.
          1. +1
            17 June 2022 06: 21
            Quote: Beetle1991
            Several helicopter carriers, the budget of the Ministry of Defense, already bursting at the seams and offshore, will simply burst.

            You are here https://topwar.ru/181285-o-stoimosti-flota-kotoryj-nam-nuzhen.html
            Building a powerful fleet with an aircraft carrier component is possible at current fleet costs
            1. 0
              17 June 2022 16: 01
              Building a powerful fleet with an aircraft carrier component is possible at current fleet costs

              Theoretically possible. In practice, everything will be carried out by effective managers, with all the tricks.
        3. 0
          17 June 2022 09: 07
          That is never
        4. +3
          18 June 2022 03: 52
          Quote: Civil
          As we get rich, we will build everything - new patrol planes and helicopter carriers.

          Where can you get richer?
          State?
          The country has a chronic surplus both in the budget and in foreign trade. This year alone, the excess profits from the rise in prices of energy resources, food and other export goods will bring about 200-250 billion dollars. ! Only this amount is enough for everything you have listed and much that is not indicated. And enough for full-fledged programs.
          I have already given an approximate calculation several times how much it will cost to build an aircraft carrier (!) Fleet of 6 (six) AV VI 45 - 50 thousand tons, 4 destroyers each per escort, for a sea tanker, an integrated supply ship, a sea tug, the entire basic infrastructure and airfields based for carrier-based aviation, and the full complement of air wings with AWACS aircraft.
          Do you know how much it turned out?
          $60 billion !
          This is if you do not steal and without kickbacks. But since we can’t do without it, we can safely assume that 100 billion dollars. enough for this program.
          That is, superprofits alone (surplus profits, without which our budget is always in surplus anyway) will be enough to finance the ENTIRE program for the construction of an aircraft carrier fleet, designed for 15-20 years.
          And the remaining 100 billion dollars. can be safely spent on all other needs ... combat, transport, civil and special aviation ... for the needs of building the Fleet - both military and civilian ... for medicine, import substitution, assistance to the poor and large families ... for education and culture (if any remains in the country) ... for everything.
          The country is full of money! Even in spite of the stolen and beloved reserve funds, sanctions and the war in / in Ukraine!
          But in this country there is a lot of things NOT.
          And that's what we don't have, and it doesn't allow us to build warships, civil and transport aircraft, modern cars, machine tools ... even our own production of source codes for milk and juice bags - NO!
          No marine propulsion.
          There is no domestic radio component base.
          There are no responsible leaders and officials who, having all the necessary means and opportunities, could do at least something to solve these problems.
          There are sybarites in power.
          Who have reached the sinecure, but do not want to do it and are not able to do it for the sake of solving national problems and tasks.
          They are only capable of DEVELOPING the budgets of the programs entrusted to them.
          And the most obvious example is our state corporations.

          Two years ago, with pomp, two UDCs were laid in Kerch.
          Has something been done there?
          But for this program, funds were allocated in full ...

          So for two main reasons, nothing is being built .... anything:
          - there is no such technical possibility,
          - any funds allocated for acquiring such capabilities will be UTILIZED ... and the reports will indicate hundreds of reasons why this did not work out.
      2. 0
        16 June 2022 17: 55
        You and we just don't know her.
        And she is
        And a gopher in the grass...
        1. +1
          16 June 2022 18: 12
          since we don't know it, it means something....
          1. 0
            16 June 2022 22: 05
            It is impossible to embrace the immense ...
            And more than necessary.
            Just tear it off and throw it away
    2. +7
      16 June 2022 08: 03
      There are even more yachts in the USA, but only with a vision of the fleet there is much better, at least due to geography.
      1. +5
        17 June 2022 09: 09
        They do not have deputies with accounts in Russia, just as there are no oligarchs living in Russia
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. +1
        17 July 2022 14: 00
        "Do we need helicopter carriers?"

        1- EvilLion, June 16, 2022 08:03, NEW - "... There are even more yachts in the USA, but only with a vision of the fleet it is much better there, at least due to geography ...."

        2- ROSS 42 (Yuri Vasilyevich), June 16, 2022 05:00 - "... So far, there is a skirmish between managers - what is profitable and what is losing. As a result, the construction of yachts of large and small displacement for personal use wins ...."

        USAthere not only geography, tam GOAL-SETTING bully , and these are not trends, this is KALEIA with a dependence on survival. See the history from the creation of the United States, its enrichment and the "creation" of the illusion of a "temple on the hill" The illusion will collapse into poverty with an enormous army and navy. А with them (the US army and navy will still "bank", ne all, like Kim Jong-un - the North Korean Supreme Leader, the leader of the party, the army and the people of the DPRK. The role of RACKETIER can also feed the US. SOLID TIME


        "Do we need helicopter carriers?" - nonsense question. soldier
        What Russia NEEDED to SURVIVE and what to LIVE.
        Here, this is closer to the topic. hi
        If the tops [i][/i] are koekakers who "successfully" failed "import substitution" and "suddenly" missed at least 50% of gold reserves.... bully Тthe Kremlin has enough "guns" with a pea charge about them. feel
        But other(in terms of finance), this is ESPECIALLY socially CONCERNED businessmen, for CARE. crying
        R.S. As in m\f-me ""Last year's snow was falling":
        "...There are a lot of fools here, but there are few hares (money), go,
        "... When the acorn is ripe, every pig will devour it!..."
        "... And even though I'm greedy, but from the bottom of my heart....",

        the main thing is to decide and DO ON TIME, and then: "... He went for the tree for the third time, and got it ... But it was already in the spring, and he took the tree back..." hi
    3. +13
      16 June 2022 08: 20
      Quote: ROSS 42
      you need to have warships of the far sea zone

      necessary, of course. But these should not be helicopter carriers
      1. -5
        16 June 2022 11: 16
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But it must be not helicopter carriers

        Strange definition. After all, now, even small ships are screwed with hangars with a helicopter.

        Let's just say that we need a family of unified ships of the order of 25 thousand tons. with the main equipment for various roles (something to combine): headquarters, reconnaissance, strike missile, air defense, anti-aircraft defense, UAV carrier, station wagon, tanker, supplies, lighter carrier, hospital, landing, ....
        Additional functions are possible by adding appropriate modules. A module (lighter) of an unattended nuclear power plant is desirable, which can be unloaded when passing routes with its prohibition.
        1. +6
          16 June 2022 11: 59
          Quote: Genry
          Let's just say that we need a family of unified ships of the order of 25 thousand tons. with the main equipment for various roles (something to combine): headquarters, reconnaissance, strike missile, air defense, anti-aircraft defense, UAV carrier, station wagon, tanker, supplies, lighter carrier, hospital, landing, ....

          Why - it is unclear what tasks to solve - all the more unclear, but NADA. Schaub bool.
          Quote: Genry
          Strange definition. After all, now, even small ships are screwed with hangars with a helicopter.

          And it's justified. Unlike a specialized helicopter carrier
        2. -2
          16 June 2022 14: 13
          it seems to be, on the contrary, everything that looks like air defense is screwed onto the helipad deck ... helicopters, nope .. - it seemed
      2. +10
        16 June 2022 12: 13
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But these should not be helicopter carriers

        What can I say, I absolutely agree with you. Moreover, I consider for our Fleet now not only PLO helicopter carriers, but also UDCs are superfluous. "Not up to fat" ... We need, first of all, multi-purpose frigates (at least two dozen), PLO corvettes, PLO aircraft, modern torpedoes, anti-mine and anti-torpedo systems, up to four regiments of modern naval fighter aviation (minimum). It is on this that all forces and means must be concentrated. And when all this appears, you can think about destroyers / aircraft carriers, and only then, if funds and opportunities allow, about UDC ...
        1. +5
          16 June 2022 13: 58
          Quote: Doccor18
          We need, first of all, multi-purpose frigates (at least two dozen), PLO corvettes, PLO aircraft, modern torpedoes, anti-mine and anti-torpedo systems, up to four regiments of modern naval fighter aviation (minimum).

          Your words are in God's ears ... To be honest, I would add torpedo nuclear submarines of moderate displacement here, and I would still start building an AB to replace Kuznetsov, so that when he retires there would be a replacement - not to lose deck schools. But still, AB is already a matter of the second stage, and what you described + the nuclear submarine is primary
          1. +3
            16 June 2022 15: 23
            Your words are in God's ears ... To be honest, I would add torpedo nuclear submarines of moderate displacement here, and I would still start building an AB to replace Kuznetsov, so that when he retires there would be a replacement - not to lose deck schools. But still, AB is already a matter of the second stage, and what you described + the nuclear submarine is primary

            And what about this deck school? Does it really exist for us?
            And is it worth it to keep a half-dead non-aircraft carrier for this.

            AB will appear, deck carriers will also appear, among amers women fly intermittently for maternity leave.
            1. +1
              16 June 2022 17: 48
              Well, we also create an air defense corvette with a stroke of a pen from a patrol ship. lol By the way, the crew of 80 people and + the possibility of placing a special group can be recruited on a family contract (washing, cooking, washing dishes, cleaning the premises - not for regular officers-sailors) ...
          2. +3
            16 June 2022 15: 37
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            To be honest, I would add torpedo nuclear submarines of moderate displacement here

            Yes, yes, I missed the Premier League. hi
          3. 0
            16 June 2022 16: 11
            torpedo submarines of moderate displacement

            apparently, the analogue of pr. 705 Lira is just VI 3000 tons
            and would still start building AB to replace Kuznetsov

            we wait,
            1. how shipyards are modernizing, recruiting staff (performed)
            2. how they will get a "hand" on projects in a simpler way, and this results in staff development (partially)
            1. +2
              16 June 2022 18: 18
              Quote: Romario_Argo
              apparently, the analogue of pr. 705 Lira is just VI 3000 tons

              No. Lyra is completely different and does not suit us from the word "completely".
              1. 0
                17 June 2022 04: 06
                but, is the Husky project a further development of Lira Ave (?)
                1. +1
                  17 June 2022 06: 22
                  Quote: Romario_Argo
                  but, is the Husky project a further development of Lira Ave (?)

                  Project Husky is a slightly stripped down 885M
                  1. 0
                    17 June 2022 06: 31
                    as I understand it, the basis of the submarine forces by 2035 will be project 885 (9) and project 545
                    replace Project 971 (9), and Project 949 (7)
                    those. torpedo nuclear submarines pr. 545 VI 11 kT need at least 8 units. (?)
      3. +1
        16 June 2022 17: 58
        Read what I read.
        Can you close everything with buoys?
        Can you write about Middle Earth and Arabian?
        And what is there to protect.
        Sechin will say - the fleet will go and protect the interests of oil and gas and other aligarhav.
        Until you need a fleet.
        Sechin and Lukoil
    4. +3
      18 June 2022 00: 00
      The military history of the fleets of the world clearly records the death of valuable ships through the fault of the admirals. And countries won not because of the genius of naval commanders, but because of the ability to make up for losses. In any case, our fleet will not receive a replacement for a lost cruiser, aircraft carrier or helicopter carrier. Therefore, admirals need to be more modest in their desires. Corvettes, frigates, BDK, UDC. Here is our limit for 10 years ahead.
    5. The comment was deleted.
  2. -16
    16 June 2022 05: 16
    and setup to run "Caliber" in the anti-submarine version provide for

    I didn’t read further, because. to use a cruise missile with a launch range of 2000 km as an anti-submarine missile is either the author was mistaken or an "oxymuron".
    Usually the articles of "Andrei from Chelyabinsk" are distinguished by the high quality of the material under consideration. But not at this time. It's a pity.
    1. +24
      16 June 2022 05: 36
      Sorry, but the author is not guilty of not knowing that Caliber is a family of missiles, which, in addition to cruise and anti-ship missiles, also includes an anti-submarine modification with a warhead in the form of a small-sized torpedo. I still assume that readers have a minimal familiarity with the topic.
      1. -18
        16 June 2022 05: 48
        I still assume that readers have a minimal familiarity with the topic.

        At least a minimum familiarity with the topic relies on the author. And while reading, the reader should not rummage through search engines to understand what exactly the author wanted. And this is your flaw that you did not indicate which modification of "Caliber" you mean in this case. The reader must be respected.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. -14
            16 June 2022 07: 13
            that we are talking about PLUR of the "Caliber" family, then he does not need the respect of the author, but the help of a doctor

            Being rude is Timokhin's method. It's a pity you're sinking to his level.
            1. +10
              16 June 2022 08: 05
              Quote: Nafanya from the couch
              Being rude is Timokhin's method

              This is not rudeness, but a statement of fact. If the phrase "Caliber in the anti-submarine version" is not enough for a person to understand that we are talking about PLUR, then there is already one of two things:
              1) Or this reader is so ignorant that he does not know that calibers can be PLUR. In this case, the reader could doubt his knowledge and he could use Google to check if there is a caliber in the PLO version, since the author writes about it, and only after that write
              Quote: Nafanya from the couch
              I didn’t read further ... either the author made a mistake, or an “oxymuron” ....

              2) Or the reader knows that there are Calibers in the PLUR version, but is unable to correlate "Caliber in the anti-submarine version" and PLUR. In this case, he needs medical help.
        2. +7
          16 June 2022 10: 01
          Quote: Nafanya from the couch
          At least a minimum familiarity with the topic relies on the author.

          The author has provided information sufficient for understanding.
          And omissions can, if desired, be found in the novel "War and Peace".
          Demonstrate?
        3. 0
          16 June 2022 18: 01
          Do not respect, but respect.
          And make money on it
      2. 0
        16 June 2022 16: 15
        readers have minimal familiarity with the topic

        there are rumors about the placement of anti-ship missiles 3M22 Zircon and PLUR 91R1 Caliber on the BPRK Bastion
        there will be something on this topic in your articles (?)
    2. +4
      16 June 2022 05: 41
      PLRK Answer is a Caliber variant.
    3. -3
      16 June 2022 11: 41
      Quote: Nafanya from the couch
      I didn’t read further, because. to use a cruise missile with a launch range of 2000 km as an anti-submarine missile is either the author was mistaken or an "oxymuron".

      The author is mistaken in many ways, but there are marine Calibers for various purposes (the range rationally varies).
      The term "Caliber" reflects the dimension of the rocket, but not its characteristics.
      1. +4
        16 June 2022 12: 02
        Quote: Genry
        The term "Caliber" reflects the dimension of the rocket, but not its characteristics.

        What is the dimension here? Caliber is a family of missiles based on a single missile.
      2. +1
        16 June 2022 20: 52
        The term "caliber" is a missile system.
        Previously, there was (and the RK left this) the Caliber ROC, as a continuation of the Turquoise ROC.
        Anti-submarine missile "Caliber". All right.
        Well, or 3M-54 ??? And 91R??
  3. +2
    16 June 2022 05: 18
    Build a helicopter carrier and forget about the existence of UAVs?! With their ability to fly for days on difficult routes and different specializations.
    1. +5
      16 June 2022 05: 46
      Well, name a Russian UAV capable of staying in the air for days. Or not Russian. Then explain how you imagine it being based on a helicopter carrier
      1. +9
        16 June 2022 05: 58
        Well, name a Russian UAV capable of staying in the air for days. Or not Russian. Then explain how you imagine it being based on a helicopter carrier

        Wing Loong - 30 hours
        MQ-9 Reaper -24 hours
        IAI Heron - 46 hours
        You can search further
        It is difficult to name the Russian BLPA, since the "smart" heads did not need it just as much as a helicopter carrier
        1. +6
          16 June 2022 07: 15
          Quote from kristal
          Wing Loong - 30 hours
          MQ-9 Reaper -24 hours
          IAI Heron - 46 hours

          Thanks, but you didn't answer the second question.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Then explain how you imagine it being based on a helicopter carrier

          The same MQ-9 Reaper with a maximum takeoff weight of 4 kg has an engine of less than 760 hp. Its thrust-to-weight ratio is twice as bad as that of the Hawkeye, how do you want to launch it from the deck without a catapult? :))))
          And you didn’t specify a single UAV of a helicopter scheme
          1. -11
            16 June 2022 07: 28
            The same MQ-9 Reaper with a maximum takeoff weight of 4 kg has an engine of less than 760 hp. Its thrust-to-weight ratio is twice as bad as that of the Hawkeye, how do you want to launch it from the deck without a catapult? :))))
            And you didn’t specify a single UAV of a helicopter scheme

            Well, right, why do we need to install catapults when we don’t need a helicopter carrier, why do we need to make analogues of RQ-4A, or MQ-8? You will put only KA-28s that are convenient for you on them and everything will not be promising ...


            In the Russian Federation, you don’t need everything, only experts like you are needed, who will tell you that it’s stupid to spend money on weapons ... And from the ships, we only need self-propelled barges with landing forces wink
            1. +8
              16 June 2022 08: 12
              Quote from kristal
              Well, right, why do we need to install catapults when we don’t need a helicopter carrier, why do we need to make analogues of RQ-4A, or MQ-8?

              That is, you offer a helicopter carrier with catapults and an arrester :)))) I'll tell you what such a ship is called. Aircraft carrier:))))
              Quote from kristal
              In the Russian Federation, everything is not needed, only experts like you are needed, who will tell you that spending money on weapons is stupid ...

              Firstly, there are no slogans "oil instead of helicopter carriers" anywhere in the article. I am considering ways to most effectively spend money on certain types of weapons to solve the tasks. So your reproach is not addressed.
              Secondly, you are here recently, and apparently you do not know me. Meanwhile, I, for example, here https://topwar.ru/181285-o-stoimosti-flota-kotoryj-nam-nuzhen.html
              I show in numbers that a powerful Russian Navy with an aircraft carrier component is possible even at the current level of costs for the fleet
          2. +2
            16 June 2022 17: 59
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            how do you want to launch it from the deck without a catapult? :))))

            Andrey, you apparently missed the information that the MQ-9 has already been tested for a short takeoff from the UDC. In addition, Naval news wrote a couple of weeks ago about installing AFAR and other equipment on this drone to perform AWACS functions. He sees a drone with a new radar at 600 km. 21st century, you know...
            1. 0
              16 June 2022 18: 39
              Quote: shahor
              Andrey, you apparently missed the information that the MQ-9 has already been tested for a short takeoff from the UDC

              And the tests were unsuccessful, so the ILC abandoned attack drones, and are supported by the Air Force. However, if my data is outdated, I will be grateful to you for the relevant links.
              Quote: shahor
              In addition, Naval news wrote a couple of weeks ago about installing AFAR and other equipment on this drone to perform AWACS functions. He sees a drone with a new radar at 600 km.

              I looked at the news for May inclusive - I did not find it. And so ... Is that a narrow beam. The MQ-9, with its weight, cannot carry a decent radar and provide it with energy.
              1. +1
                16 June 2022 22: 27
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I looked at the news for May inclusive - I did not find it.

                Andrew!! Just type in the designation BPL-Mq-9 in the search box on the Naval resource. April 27 - about towing by the GAS benchmark, January 19 - about the AFAR on the UAV.
          3. 0
            16 June 2022 21: 03
            Same MQ-9 Reaper

            He still has others.
            - wing, as in span, chord, load, quality
            - aerodynamics (drag)
            - rolling resistance
            And a lot of things

            I can assume instead of a catapult, the “first stage” is an accelerator launcher, a returnable one, with a high-torque turbofan engine and an afterburner / thrust reverser, “developed mechanization (a wing adjustable in angle of attack is generally possible)
            He is not far to fly, he brought the UAV "into orbit" and return to the deck for the next one.
            You can also "canister" with fuel to refuel the UAV without landing (or a replaceable battery for electric jokes)
            True, you will probably still need an arrester or some kind of mesh, the landing speed is still not for this deck
      2. +4
        16 June 2022 07: 00
        Good day, Andrey! In your words about the PLO aircraft, you miss the fact that its main means of detecting submarines is not a radar at all, but an RGAB. And it is from their characteristics that it is necessary to build all conclusions about the effectiveness of the aircraft as a means of anti-aircraft defense.
        And you have very little about them in this article.
        1. +4
          16 June 2022 07: 17
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          In your words about the PLO aircraft, you miss the fact that its main means of detecting submarines is not a radar at all, but an RGAB.

          This is not entirely true.
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          And it is from their characteristics that it is necessary to build all conclusions about the effectiveness of the aircraft as a means of anti-aircraft defense.

          And what is the fundamental difference between the RGAB for a helicopter and an airplane?
          1. +5
            16 June 2022 07: 23
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            This is not entirely true.
            But for small moves and sufficient depths of submarines, and in combination with rough seas, it’s quite. Even for Western (consider American) aircraft.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And what is the fundamental difference between the RGAB for a helicopter and an airplane?

            RGABs make no difference, but submersible GAS are much better for helicopters. wink
            1. +2
              16 June 2022 08: 12
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              RGABs do not matter, but submersible GAS are much better for helicopters

              With submersible GAS, the radius of action of helicopters drops to very uninteresting values
              1. +3
                16 June 2022 08: 58
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                With submersible GAS, the radius of action of helicopters drops to very uninteresting values

                Not without this, but a qualitative increase in the possibility of detecting submarines is worth it. In addition, the range can be exchanged for patrolling time, especially since the domestic RSLs do not work for more than an hour, except for the RSL-16-1. (from open sources)
                1. +3
                  16 June 2022 10: 01
                  Quote: Vladimir_2U
                  Not without this, but a qualitative increase in the possibility of detecting submarines is worth it.

                  And I didn't suggest getting rid of it completely. If you disperse helicopter carrier escort ships over the water area, then their carrier-based helicopters can help to a certain extent. But it makes no sense to fence a garden with a helicopter carrier so that helicopters can lower the GAS 100 kilometers from it at most (for the Americans, they do not work further than 50 km of EMNIP) does not make sense.
                  1. +1
                    16 June 2022 10: 21
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    But it makes no sense to fence a garden with a helicopter carrier so that helicopters can lower the GAS 100 kilometers from it at most (for the Americans, they do not work further than 50 km of EMNIP) does not make sense.

                    Certainly in the near area. hi
              2. 0
                16 June 2022 12: 13
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                With submersible GAS

                Are towed GAS still used on ships?
                Can they improve awareness?

                I really studied only the equipment of the Type 22 Broadsword frigates.
                I don't know about others at a later time.
                What do you think?
                1. +2
                  16 June 2022 13: 59
                  Quote: Mister X
                  Are towed GAS still used on ships?

                  Of course. This is generally considered standard equipment today.
                  1. 0
                    16 June 2022 14: 41
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    This is generally considered standard equipment today.

                    Is the detection range greater than that of submersible helicopters?
                    1. +1
                      16 June 2022 18: 40
                      Quote: Mister X
                      Is the detection range greater than that of submersible helicopters?

                      Who will tell you this ... Maybe more, and in theory there should be more, but what do you need in this?
                      1. 0
                        16 June 2022 20: 10
                        Quote: ban
                        just what do you need in this?

                        I am an amateur in the PLO and the Navy.
                        If the towed GAS has a sufficient detection radius, you can once again not send a helicopter with a submersible system.
                        True, the ship's propellers can create additional background noise.

                        Is the situation very sad with hydroacoustic buoys?
      3. ban
        0
        16 June 2022 08: 36
        Helicopter UAVs. In the US Navy, they were adopted VERY long ago, then removed, now they will again be adopted on a new technical basis
        1. +1
          16 June 2022 10: 02
          Quote: ban
          In the US Navy, they were adopted VERY long ago, then removed, now they will again be adopted on a new technical basis

          Only now there will be no fundamental advantage over a conventional helicopter
          1. ban
            0
            16 June 2022 10: 07
            Even, rather, the functionality is even more limited, but nevertheless, such a fact takes place
            1. +2
              16 June 2022 11: 27
              Quote: ban
              but nevertheless, such a fact is the place to be

              Of course. But the bottom line is that the presence of such a UAV does not add anything to what is described in the article, so I ignored it. Generally speaking, I wanted to write about UAVs, but the article turned out to be too big
    2. -1
      16 June 2022 18: 03
      Not so with the dreams of flrtovodtsev.
      Hotstsa im big Mercedes and av
      What to do here
      1. 0
        21 June 2022 22: 31
        I waited a bit and: if we really consider the prospect, and not how to catch up with yesterday, then a UAV network as repeaters and a network of unmanned boats equipped with search, guidance and communication tools should be launched as PLO on helicopter carriers.
        1. 0
          21 June 2022 23: 28
          FSE and everything flows and changes.
          The ambiguous multidimensional cannot be embraced.
          And you need to see.
          It's about mavics.
          And about other adaptations, types and types of troops.
          The control of the whole sea and part of the ocean is one reality.
          And others - shock opportunities .. and left.
          Navy traditions - not about the fleet of 2050
  4. -1
    16 June 2022 05: 33
    Lord, what the hell are helicopter carriers ... the army lacks the most elementary, such as small drones, in the most important weapons systems lagging behind for decades (kazy on tanks, 3rd generation anti-tank missiles, light drills, communications, etc., etc., yes, even a rifleman) and all this against the backdrop of the largest war after WWII, and the local aircraft carrier sect is again on its own. facepalm.
    1. -5
      16 June 2022 07: 29
      Quote: squid
      in the most important weapons systems lagging behind for decades

      Judging by the course of the "largest war since WWII," everything is very different.
  5. -4
    16 June 2022 05: 35
    separately delivered a mention of tasks such as "covering the SSBN". yeah. in the Sea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbOkhotsk and the Barents Sea, you definitely need an aircraft carrier for this, near your coast, you can "cover" directly from the pier
    1. +6
      16 June 2022 07: 27
      Quote: squid
      separately delivered a mention of tasks such as "covering the SSBN". yeah. in the Sea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbOkhotsk and the Barents Sea, an aircraft carrier is definitely needed for this

      "I did not read the article, but I condemn" (c)
  6. -2
    16 June 2022 05: 45
    . But we can use the same funds to create a regiment of multifunctional fighters (of the Su-35 level), five good patrol aircraft, and we still have funds to purchase four medium-sized AWACS aircraft (if we had them, of course)

    Come on, author, let's be honest, they will be put on yachts. For first, an article from "experts" appears - an aircraft carrier is not needed, a helicopter carrier is not needed, ships with a displacement of more than 5000 tons are not needed ...
    As a result, we have a good fleet of yachts of oligarchs and project 22160
    1. 0
      16 June 2022 07: 02
      Quote from kristal
      Come on, author, let's be honest, they will be put on yachts.

      Already very unlikely. Given how they rushed to confiscate.
      1. 0
        16 June 2022 13: 09
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Given how they rushed to confiscate.

        They were not "confiscated", but "arrested". Difference...
  7. Eug
    +6
    16 June 2022 05: 46
    I can’t understand - why COMPARE the capabilities of helicopter carriers and patrol aircraft? As for me - only to understand what kind of tasks to set. After all, it is clear that for an effective PLO there must be both components (and not only them). As for me, it is more expedient to use PA to survey large areas of the ocean, and helicopters are needed for PLO of specific ship groups, convoys ...
    1. +2
      16 June 2022 07: 18
      Quote: Eug
      After all, it is clear that for an effective PLO there must be both components

      No. The Americans, with their most powerful PLO of the Cold War era, did without PLO helicopter carriers.
      1. ban
        0
        16 June 2022 08: 17
        The Americans, with their most powerful PLO of the Cold War era, did without PLO helicopter carriers.


        Not really - let's remember Hermes, Invincibles, Dedalo among the allies, plus their own UDC and amphibious helicopter carriers, plus four anti-submarine aircraft carriers in reserve.
        1. +1
          16 June 2022 10: 14
          Quote: ban
          Not really - remember Hermes, Invincibles, Daedalo among the allies

          The history of British helicopter carriers is generally a very interesting thing, it was a big compromise that made sense for the British (quickly converting helicopter carriers into light aircraft carriers) but which does not make sense for us.
          Quote: ban
          plus own UDC and landing helicopter carriers

          Which they were going to use for their intended purpose, but not in the role of specialized PLO ships.
          Quote: ban
          plus four anti-submarine aircraft carriers in reserve.

          Unless :)) But if you remember how much different junk there is + the absence of specialized PLO helicopter carriers in the fleet - the Americans definitely did not rely on this
          1. ban
            +2
            16 June 2022 10: 20
            They didn’t, but they kept in mind ... And Iwo Jima and UDC were definitely going to use convoys in PLO - remember EAV WWII
            1. +1
              16 June 2022 11: 25
              Quote: ban
              And Iwo Jima and UDC were definitely going to use convoys in PLO - remember EAV WWII

              I do not argue, but how is it? The UDC is coming, carrying a bunch of equipment and infantry to the continent, and even at the same time, the submarine provides the convoy. But I have not heard about separating them into separate hunting groups following the model and likeness of WWII
              1. ban
                0
                16 June 2022 12: 19
                Life would make wink
                1. 0
                  16 June 2022 14: 01
                  Quote: ban
                  Life would make

                  but who knows ... for the Yankees, the urgency of transferring the army to Europe would be key in a conflict with the Department of Internal Affairs, and losing the capacity of the UDC ... I don’t know, honestly hi
                  1. ban
                    +3
                    16 June 2022 15: 10
                    What about amphibious helicopter carriers?
                    There is no equipment there, and l / s aircraft are faster to transfer. Yes, and UDC - 20 knots, and what were the high-speed transports in the ILC - 33 knots, under 70 in number, incl. already to the eyeballs stocked warehouses with equipment and weapons
                    1. +2
                      16 June 2022 15: 53
                      Quote: ban
                      What about amphibious helicopter carriers?
                      There is no equipment there, and l / s aircraft are faster to transfer.

                      It was like this - 4 divisions + 3 brigades were available in Europe with equipment and personnel, another equipment for 6 divisions was stored in Europe, the personnel was supposed to arrive in 10 days by air. But then everything was more complicated - the time for transfer by sea by transport ferries from the ports of the USA to the ports of the Netherlands, Germany, taking into account loading and unloading, is up to 18 days. That is, the first reinforcements by sea are M + 18 days, and then ... In Iraq, before the desert storm, they transferred 1,6 divisions per month, although they involved 269 ships of the US Navy Sealift Command and chartered ships of merchant fleets (18 countries provided 50 merchant ships), and a total of 319 ships.
                      So it turns out that on M day the states would have 4 divisions and 3 brigades, on M + 10 - 10 divisions + 3 brigades and they would have received the next division somewhere in M ​​+ 20, well if. This is against our army groups a little more than nothing. So they had to throw all the resources specifically for the transfer of ground forces
      2. +1
        16 June 2022 11: 44
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        No. The Americans, with their most powerful PLO of the Cold War era, did without PLO helicopter carriers.
        Not an argument: they had ships - like a fool candy wrappers. Land on every helicopter - no helicopter carriers are needed. But we have to constantly control all sorts of other people's narrownesses (you can place stationary equipment on our own), so that any bastard does not slip through there -
        would be useful. By the way, 12 more pieces should have been added to 4 helicopters: they break, bastards. But the near PLO should be entrusted to the cover forces: it is a pity to spend the resource of helicopters on this.
        1. +2
          16 June 2022 12: 06
          Quote: bk0010
          Not an argument

          Okay, give me your reasons.
          Quote: bk0010
          But we have to control all sorts of other people's narrowness continuously

          What specific bottlenecks do you want to control in the Barents Sea? In black? In the Baltic? On DV?
          Quote: bk0010
          But the near PLO should be entrusted to the cover forces: it is a pity to spend the resource of helicopters on this.

          And spend one and a half to two times more billions on additional escort ships than on increasing the size and air group of a helicopter carrier. You are not sorry.
          1. 0
            16 June 2022 13: 12
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Okay, give me your reasons.
            Arguments for what? That we need a helicopter carrier? I'm not at all sure that this is an essential item. It's just that the absence of PLO helicopter carriers from the United States during the Cold War is not an indicator of its need or uselessness for us - the situations are too different.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            What specific bottlenecks do you want to control in the Barents Sea? In black? In the Baltic? On DV?
            Faroe-Islad border, coast of Norway, Aleuts.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And spend one and a half to two times more billions on additional escort ships than on increasing the size and air group of a helicopter carrier. You are not sorry.
            And who will solve the tasks of air defense and air defense? Also a helicopter carrier? No, you can, of course, but it's expensive.
            1. +1
              16 June 2022 14: 08
              Quote: bk0010
              It’s just that the absence of PLO helicopter carriers from the United States during the Cold War is not an indicator of its need or uselessness for us

              By itself - yes, I agree. As an additional argument to those that I gave in the article - why not?
              Quote: bk0010
              Faroe-Islad border, coast of Norway, Aleuts.

              None of our helicopter carriers will reach Iceland, and why is it needed there? The USSR could still go by surface ships from the Barents to Norwegian, and then most likely it would be a bad idea. Where are we? In the zone of domination of the enemy fleet, without air cover ... This is death. And then, why do we need this boundary? it was once defended against nuclear submarines of the USSR breaking into the Atlantic, but what should we protect from and whom? If something happens, we need to catch the enemy in the Barents, and there will be a lot of enemy submarines there.
              Quote: bk0010
              Norwegian coast

              то же самое
              Quote: bk0010
              The Aleuts.

              why? In this area, enemy submarines do not threaten us
              Quote: bk0010
              And who will solve the tasks of air defense and air defense?

              Air defense and air defense are decided by a couple of ships in an escort, but anti-aircraft defense is hardly, more is needed.
  8. 0
    16 June 2022 05: 56
    But is there a place where a PLO helicopter carrier will be more effective than PLO aircraft? There is such a place. This is the Mediterranean Sea near the island of Corfu.
    1. +5
      16 June 2022 07: 21
      Quote: SVD68
      There is such a place. This is the Mediterranean Sea near the island of Corfu.

      even in the era of 5OPESK, such a statement would be highly doubtful. Now...
      1. +1
        16 June 2022 13: 10
        Now, when the shtatovtsy are working out options for a quick disarming strike by tridents, control of this water area is a necessity.
        1. +4
          16 June 2022 14: 11
          Quote: SVD68
          Now, when the shtatovtsy are working out options for a quick disarming strike by tridents, control of this water area is a necessity.

          Victor, it is even more necessary to set realistic goals that we can handle. Control of the Middle-earth is clearly beyond our capabilities. In this case, protection against a disarming agent must be built on the inaccessibility of SSBNs as a means of retaliation.
  9. +6
    16 June 2022 05: 58
    Here it is somehow forgotten that the aircraft is looking for submarines mainly with the help of buoys, and their supply on board is limited, and they themselves are not cheap for a one-time tool. The helicopter, on the other hand, has a low-powered, but still more efficient lowered GAS, and it is by no means disposable.
    1. 0
      16 June 2022 07: 04
      Yes, and their characteristics are different, both in time and in depth and range. And their limitations are not weak, for example, on a wave.
    2. +2
      16 June 2022 07: 24
      Quote: Sahalinets
      Here it is somehow forgotten that the aircraft is looking for submarines mainly with the help of buoys, and their supply on board is limited

      Oddly enough, but not necessarily.
      Quote: Sahalinets
      The helicopter, on the other hand, has a low-powered, but still more efficient lowered GAS

      The use of which will drastically limit its combat radius
  10. +9
    16 June 2022 06: 29
    American aircraft carriers once had Viking anti-submarine carrier-based aircraft, but they were abandoned in favor of the base Poseidons for the same reasons that you cite, and PLO helicopters are used as an anti-submarine barrier along the path of the AUG. The United States relies on the SOSUS stationary system for PLOs, a maneuverable long-range sonar surveillance system based on specially built ships - SURTASS, FDS, which is a passive stationary sonar rapidly deployable system to support forces operating in areas of regional crises and unmanned anti-submarine catamarans ..
    1. +4
      16 June 2022 10: 17
      Quote: riwas
      American aircraft carriers once had Viking anti-submarine carrier-based aircraft, but they were abandoned in favor of the base Poseidons for the same reasons that you give

      Not quite so - it’s just that after the fall of the USSR they decided that it was possible to do without PLO carrier-based aircraft due to the sharply reduced underwater threat
      Quote: riwas
      and PLO helicopters are used as an anti-submarine barrier along the path of the AUG.

      Up to 50 km from the order
      Quote: riwas
      The United States relies on the stationary SOSUS system for anti-aircraft defense, a maneuverable long-range sonar surveillance system based on specially built ships - SURTASS

      As for SURTASS - it's not quite right anymore, they used to bet on this, but now this component has also weakened. Either the Poseidons are so cool that they don’t need any SURTASS, or they just don’t have enough money for everything at once
  11. -3
    16 June 2022 06: 49
    What kind of helicopter carriers, because of the sanctions, we won’t build anything larger than a boat ...
    1. +2
      16 June 2022 07: 24
      Quote: tone
      What kind of helicopter carriers, because of the sanctions, we won’t build anything larger than a boat ...

      we are building two helicopter carriers of 30 tons each in the "bay"
      1. +2
        16 June 2022 09: 03
        And what kind of helicopters will we put on them ??? After all, there are none, except junk!
        1. +1
          16 June 2022 10: 18
          Quote: Alien From
          And what kind of helicopters will we put on them ???

          Well, the new anti-submarine has been in development for a long time (another question is how long it will stay there ?!) - however, taking into account the fact that 1 helicopter carrier will go into operation according to plan in 2028 and in fact five years later - maybe by then will appear...
          1. 0
            23 June 2022 15: 20
            Lamprey should appear, but when will it be?
      2. +1
        16 June 2022 10: 44
        Timokhin wrote, and I believe him that there is not even a project there, I am silent about construction.
        There is news right now on the main Yandex that chips are found on ships. Here such import substitution is now needed in total, no one even imagines its entire volume.
        1. +1
          16 June 2022 11: 17
          Quote: tone
          Timokhin wrote, and I believe him that there is not even a project there, I am silent about construction.

          The helicopter is in development, and not at the layout level. In 2021, Kamov handed out advance payments for design documentation for minced meat to subcontractors. That is, there was a concept, now it is being filled with the real characteristics of the latest "minced meat", all the design documentation for it is expected in 2023. Taking into account the fact that development has been going on for a year since 2015, I would not say that in terms of timing catastrophe.
          Quote: tone
          such import substitution is now required

          well, we will use Chinese instead of American ones ... and Americans have similar problems, by the way, our Chinese are there. where it can't be...
          1. +2
            16 June 2022 13: 52
            You understand, I am for the fleet with three limbs, but the reality is that the Chinese do not even sell Mavics. They are friends only in words on TV.
  12. -4
    16 June 2022 06: 55
    what words! worst threat! our sailors are trembling with fear????
  13. 0
    16 June 2022 07: 07
    There is only one step from UDC to a light aircraft carrier. Yes, the same "Mistral", if a springboard was welded to its bow, would already be able to lift four aircraft into the air, even if they were gallim MIG-29K. Ask any admiral if he needs a flight of MIGs, which he can take into the air immediately, and not wait until they fly from coastal airfields.
    And if the body of the UDC is lengthened to the size of the Kuznetsov (not too much to lengthen), then it will pull the SU-33.
    Of course, installing an arrester on the UDC is not a trivial task, but it can be solved. Still not a catapult.
    1. +2
      16 June 2022 08: 16
      Quote: Nagan
      There is only one step from UDC to a light aircraft carrier.

      You only missed one word. Write
      From UDC to very bad light aircraft carrier just one step

      and everything will be right.
      Quote: Nagan
      Ask any admiral if he needs a flight of MIGs, which he can take into the air immediately, and not wait until they fly from coastal airfields.

      And for this we already need a normal aircraft carrier with a corner flight deck and so on. By the way, even Kuznetsov is unable to carry out the tasks of air defense and anti-aircraft defense at the same time.
      1. 0
        16 June 2022 18: 23
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        very bad

        Yes, of course, not "Nimitz" and even more so not "Gerald Ford". Not even Charles de Gaulle. Just UDC, capable of raising the link of MIGs. But it's better than nothing at all.
        1. +1
          16 June 2022 19: 34
          Quote: Nagan
          But it's better than nothing at all.

          Worse. Because funds will be spent on its creation, which can be used to solve other problems. As a result, we get a useless ship + diversion of funds from the important.
  14. -3
    16 June 2022 07: 27
    Of course, the Russian Navy does not have strategic missile carriers in the Black and Baltic Seas. However, non-nuclear submarines of NATO countries can threaten our ships there, and such a threat should not be ignored.
    In this case, they will be locked in their bases, and aviation will be cut down over the sea.
    In order to control the sea in the immediate vicinity of a helicopter carrier, say, within a radius of 35–50 km, at least one more helicopter is needed around the clock.
    What is this for? If 1-2 ships of the corvette / frigate class are needed next to the helicopter carrier, then they will provide anti-aircraft defense of the near zone.
    1. +4
      16 June 2022 08: 17
      Quote: Dart2027
      If 1-2 ships of the corvette / frigate class are needed next to the helicopter carrier, then they will provide anti-aircraft defense of the near zone.

      They won't provide. With their weak HAKs, they would have to provide their own PLO. The Americans "in the environment" of an aircraft carrier have several much more serious ships than a corvette / frigate, but they use helicopters to control the near zone
      1. ban
        0
        16 June 2022 08: 40
        Andrey, on Kasatonov, GAK is not at all weak, as I heard
        1. +2
          16 June 2022 10: 26
          Quote: ban
          Andrei, on Kasatonov, GAK is not at all weak

          Who knows what this Zarya-3 can do. hi I do not argue at all with the fact that a complex for a frigate can be very good. But still, the same Americans, having very good SACs for their time, and on their Berks, did not consider the PLO warrants secured even if there were 3-5 such ships.
          1. ban
            +1
            16 June 2022 11: 27
            According to rumors, not a bad HAK, even better than Polynom
            1. 0
              16 June 2022 12: 08
              Quote: ban
              According to rumors, not a bad HAK, even better than Polynom

              It would be great, of course. But it is quite difficult to believe about a better polynomial.
              In addition, the Project 22350 frigate is a very expensive ship, an increase in the air group by 6 helicopters and an increase in the displacement of a helicopter carrier will be much cheaper than one such ship
              1. +2
                16 June 2022 13: 12
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                an increase in the air group by 6 helicopters and an increase in the displacement of a helicopter carrier will be much cheaper than one such ship

                Ships such as helicopter carriers / aircraft carriers / UDC must be accompanied by an escort, so you should not save money here.
                1. -1
                  16 June 2022 15: 54
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  so don't skimp here.

                  So maybe you should consider investing in other forces instead of a KUG with a helicopter carrier?
                  1. +1
                    16 June 2022 16: 09
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    consider investing in other forces

                    Frigates are needed anyway. That is, the KUG will still be, it’s another matter that it may have a helicopter carrier / aircraft carrier / UDC, or it may not.
                    1. -1
                      16 June 2022 18: 45
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Frigates are needed anyway

                      We need to solve certain tasks for which frigates are needed. In the presence of a helicopter carrier, frigates will solve the problem of guarding it and reduce their ability to solve other tasks. In other words, if there are tasks for 6 frigates at the World Cup (hereinafter - an example, nothing more), then the appearance of an aircraft carrier will increase their need to 8, although 3 will participate in guarding the helicopter carrier.
                      1. 0
                        16 June 2022 19: 50
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        We need to solve certain tasks for which frigates are needed.
                        Everything depends on the tasks. Let's say there is a task of transporting a regiment of marines to reinforce the Kuril garrison - the regiment was put on a pair of UDCs, but guards must be sent with them. Or PLO questions in the north, patrols from a pair of frigates are good, but the same patrol with a helicopter carrier is better. Or the issue of air defense - a helicopter is constantly circling over several ships, whose view is farther than that of ship radars. In general, it all depends on the situation and the common sense of the admirals.
                      2. 0
                        23 June 2022 15: 57
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        We need to solve certain tasks for which frigates are needed. In the presence of a helicopter carrier, frigates will solve the problem of guarding it and reduce their ability to solve other tasks. In other words, if there are tasks for 6 frigates at the World Cup (hereinafter - an example, nothing more), then the appearance of an aircraft carrier will increase their need to 8, although 3 will participate in guarding the helicopter carrier.

                        Can you give a specific example?
                      3. 0
                        23 June 2022 20: 27
                        Quote: AlexHafele
                        Can you give a specific example?

                        Please clarify your question
                      4. 0
                        24 June 2022 09: 09
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: AlexHafele
                        Can you give a specific example?

                        Please clarify your question

                        I don’t know how to write it differently - can you give a specific example of some kind of situation or case when a frigate, when solving the task of "security", is unable to complete a combat mission (with an example of this task)?
                      5. +1
                        24 June 2022 09: 51
                        Quote: AlexHafele
                        can you give a specific example of some kind of situation or case when a frigate, when solving the "security" task, is unable to complete a combat mission (with an example of this task)?

                        Falklands conflict - when the British amphibious group went to land troops, the task of its direct cover was extremely important. But the cover forces were divided as follows:
                        The amphibious group was covered by 7 British ships, including one County-class destroyer (Entrim), two "old" type 12 frigates (Yarmouth and Plymouth), and a Linder-class frigate (Argonot) , the Type 21 frigate (Ardent), and finally the Type 22 frigates Broadsword and Brilliant;
                        The aircraft carriers "working from afar" were left with two Type 42 destroyers (Glasgow and Coventry), a County-class destroyer (Glamorgan) and two Type 21 frigates (Arrow and Alakriti). These ships, of course, could not cover the landing group in any way.
                        That is, the British aircraft carriers, on the one hand, provided VTOL surveillance over the amphibious group, but on the other hand, they did not make it possible to strengthen it with 5 destroyer / frigate class ships that they had
  15. +1
    16 June 2022 07: 54
    Looking at how Moscow died, you begin to suspect that there is no point in building large targets until there is reliable air defense and there is no proper crew training.
    1. +2
      16 June 2022 08: 19
      Quote: anclevalico
      Looking at how Moscow died

      We still don't know why she died.
      Quote: anclevalico
      you begin to suspect that it makes no sense to build large targets until there is reliable air defense

      It is. But it was not on the 40-year-old cruiser.
      1. -7
        16 June 2022 08: 34
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        We still don't know why she died.

        Is it from a cigarette butt?

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        It is.

        Don't piss off God...
        1. +1
          16 June 2022 10: 29
          Quote: Liam
          Is it from a cigarette butt?

          Wrote here https://topwar.ru/195191-gibel-raketnogo-krejsera-moskva-kak-prigovor-koncepcii-moskitnogo-flota.html
          From his own power plant could die, in short. By analogy with the accident at Zakharov
          Quote: Liam
          Don't piss off God...

          But what, "Hurricane / Calm", "Polyment-Redut" in a complete set have already become something bad for you?
          1. -3
            16 June 2022 11: 36
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            From his own power plant could die

            )))) From the Martian spaceship could also ..
            Only and then air defense.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            . But on the 40-year-old cruiser he was not



            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But what, "Hurricane / Calm", "Polyment-Redut" in a complete set have already become something bad for you?

            For me, they didn’t become ... they always were. The leadership of the Navy, however, also has some doubts. As a result, the corvettes / frigates of the Black Sea Fleet, after a domestic fire on the flagship, prudently returned to the good old Russian naval tradition ... turning the fleet into a portside floating battery.
            1. 0
              16 June 2022 12: 24
              Quote: Liam
              )))) From the Martian spaceship could also ..

              In your universe - perhaps. In our reality, on Zakharov with a similar type of turbines, there was a "spacing" of one of them due to an error in operation + a technical malfunction of the unit itself, which caused the pieces of the turbine to fly apart at the speed of an artillery shell, the fuel tank was pierced and the ship out of the blue set off a strong volumetric fire , self-feeding from a recommended tank.
              Quote: Liam
              For me, they didn't...

              You see, the impression they made on you has nothing to do with their capabilities.
              Quote: Liam
              The leadership of the Navy, however, also has some doubts.

              come on?
              Quote: Liam
              As a result, the corvettes / frigates of the Black Sea Fleet, after a domestic fire on the flagship, prudently returned to the good old Russian naval tradition ... turning the fleet into a portside floating battery.

              I’m silent that there are no corvettes in the Black Sea Fleet, but who fired calibers 4 days ago? Where did the data about floating batteries come from, by the way?
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. 0
                  16 June 2022 14: 26
                  Quote: Liam
                  Am I mistaken, or is there an expression in Russian .. pretend to be a hose?

                  Have you decided to change your nickname to Shlang?
                  And, yes, you have catachresis
                  Quote: Liam
                  Oh my God ... when the fleet, for fear of catching a couple of unextinguished cigarettes on board, stops approaching the enemy coastline by less than 300 km

                  и
                  Quote: Liam
                  It is impossible to talk about improvisations and know-how in the form of wire-wiring ground-based air defense systems on decks except with compassion ..

                  If the fleet does not approach the coast closer than 300 km, it does not need to fasten anything.
                  Quote: Liam
                  Due to the tact of tactics, the fleet is not able to cover not only the landing operation, but simply to provide at least minimal air defense for its landing and patrol boats, which are drowned like Bayraktar kittens in the area of ​​​​the same Zmeinoy.

                  Weird. So far, mostly Ukrainian landing craft are sinking there and Ukrainian helicopters are falling, sometimes even with landing forces. And to put a frigate in the immediate vicinity of the Ukrainian coast, in such a situation, generally speaking, not a single fleet of the world would begin, at least what kind of air defense systems it would have.
                  Quote: Liam
                  And about the suicide bombers sent to Snake Island to concoct at least some kind of air defense and cover up the shame of the fleet in the form of the impossibility of providing it in this zone and the Himars or Excaliburs waiting for the inevitable volley

                  Well, of course, before the Hymars and Excaliburs, the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not have any long-range systems. No Hurricanes, no Points-U.
                  1. -2
                    17 June 2022 13: 23
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    So far, Ukrainian landing craft are mostly sinking there.



                    Reality always puts push-button dreamers and hoaxers in their place
                    1. 0
                      17 June 2022 13: 38
                      Quote: Liam
                      Reality always puts push-button dreamers and hoaxers in their place

                      And what is the reality? The fact that "Harpoon" studied the contents of the cargo that the tug was transporting before hitting? Or is it that the Ukrainian Navy managed not only to get into the tugboat with a rocket, but also to count the missing and wounded on it?
                      Do you yourself even think a little before copy-pasting such news? Or laurels
                      Quote: Liam
                      foot dreamers and hoaxers

                      do not give rest? You should at least wait for confirmation, otherwise the Ukrainians have already burned one frigate, there is even a video on the network. True, he was later seen whole in Sevastopol, but that was later ...
                      1. -3
                        17 June 2022 15: 47
                        I'm not talking about how many drowned and what was or wasn't there.
                        I'm talking about the fleet and its air defense. Who was supposed to cover them and provide them with air defense?
                      2. +1
                        17 June 2022 18: 22
                        Quote: Liam
                        I'm not talking about how many drowned and what was or wasn't there.

                        No, it's about that. From what you culturally called an Internet dump, they poured into your ears that the Russian tug carrying cargo to Zmeiny was damaged by a rocket and suffered such and such losses. You, not paying attention to the obvious oddities of the message, and without waiting for any confirmation / refutation, joyfully run here with a cry
                        Quote: Liam
                        Reality always puts push-button dreamers and hoaxers in their place

                        What is it like?:))))
                        Quote: Liam
                        I'm talking about the fleet and its air defense. Who was supposed to cover them and provide them with air defense?

                        Let's first understand what it was, and where.
  16. +1
    16 June 2022 08: 21
    An icebreaker-class aircraft carrier, the only true definition for Russia's long maritime borders.
    1. +1
      16 June 2022 11: 51
      The icebreaker is pumping too much to launch or receive aircraft. Maybe ice class?
  17. +2
    16 June 2022 08: 25
    Helicopter carriers ... I immediately recall the epic with the "Mistrals" .. my nephew was just passing the deadline, so they hung out in France with the crews for the "Mistrals" for several months)))
  18. ban
    0
    16 June 2022 08: 30
    Andrey, welcome!

    The article, as always, is on the level, but I will allow myself a couple of clarifications.

    As they correctly write here in the comments, the main means of detecting submarines on an RGAB aircraft, and on a helicopter - OGAS, each system has its own advantages and disadvantages.
    Again, with a competent approach, the helicopter carrier will be able to perform, in addition to the main task of the PLO, fire support for DOs, landing DRGs and assault groups from helicopters, and PMO tasks with the help of minesweeper helicopters. Not so little! Or are we doing well with PMO?
    And if we end up with an American UDC, then why not? With our current income!
    Therefore, it is wrong to oppose helicopter carriers to base aviation, we need both, and more, and more !!!
    1. +1
      16 June 2022 10: 36
      Good afternoon! hi
      Quote: ban
      Again, with a competent approach, the helicopter carrier will be able to perform, in addition to the main task of the PLO, fire support for DOs, landing DRGs and assault groups from helicopters, and PMO tasks with the help of minesweeper helicopters. Not so little! Or are we doing well with PMO?

      Fire support will be better provided by aircraft built with money saved from a helicopter carrier :))) And the landing of the DRG is still not the task for which the main ship of the fleet should be built.
      With PMO, of course, everything is bad with us, but here we still need specialized minesweepers. A minesweeper helicopter ... they tried, well, it turned out very well, as far as I know
      Quote: ban
      And if we end up with an American UDC, then why not? With our current income!

      Yes, because it is better to build an aircraft carrier with the same money, if you are already investing in aircraft carriers. And it will be of no more use than an example.
      Quote: ban
      Therefore, it is wrong to oppose helicopter carriers to base aviation, we need both, and more, and more !!!

      "In order to sell something unnecessary, you must first buy something unnecessary, but we have no money!" (c) (I love Matroskin)
      The problem is precisely in finances - since there are few of them, one should strive to use them with maximum efficiency. and, in my opinion, we can just do without PLO helicopter carriers at all, and UDCs are useful, but secondary
      1. ban
        +1
        16 June 2022 11: 34
        In fire support missions, an aircraft will not always be able to do this better than a helicopter - they complement each other.

        The Red Sea was once trawled by both TSC and helicopters, the helicopter is not very bad in terms of performance, and the laying of cord charges ...

        And yes, we need both AB and UDC !!!


        And who told you that finance is not enough? The fleet of yachts is an example for us am
        1. +1
          16 June 2022 15: 55
          Quote: ban
          And who told you that finance is not enough? The fleet of yachts is an example for us

          But but but! Encroach on the sacred :))))) hi
  19. +1
    16 June 2022 08: 38
    We need UDC ... unified. In one case (you can play along the length). And there, according to the order: helicopter carrier, UDC, hospital, headquarters, base for MTR, etc. The Turks are planning to make a UAV carrier.
    1. 0
      16 June 2022 11: 53
      Quote: Zaurbek
      We need UDC ... unified
      Exactly. Up to loading some supply modules.
  20. +3
    16 June 2022 09: 19
    Approaching the question of the cost and effectiveness of all this piling up, I personally do not find convincing facts of its necessity.
    1. The cost of a helicopter is several times higher than the cost of a UAV.
    2. The training of the flight crew is an expensive pleasure, which gives out a single product that cannot be repaired.
    3. There are fewer people who want to be military pilots every year.
    4. The physical capabilities of pilots are several times lower than the UAV in terms of patrol time.
    5. The creation of this vessel forces the creation of a whole armada of means for its protection. And who will protect whom becomes very interesting.
    6. How many modern missiles do you need to disable this one creature? And what to do with the master plans when only one helicopter carrier fails?
  21. 0
    16 June 2022 09: 30
    What are helicopter carriers? The only large ships that Russia knows how to build are nuclear submarines.
    if you refuse to build them, then you can allocate resources to some other large surface ships. However, for starters, as they already write in the comments, you need to understand what kind of fleet to build. Now we see once again that the fleet is of course needed, but again not the same as it is
    1. +1
      16 June 2022 10: 37
      Quote: certero
      if you refuse to build them, then you can allocate resources to some other large surface ships.

      Russia TODAY is building two large helicopter carriers.
  22. 0
    16 June 2022 09: 37
    With all due respect to the author, but for Russia now, a large, highly specialized helicopter carrier and not even one, at least two - Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet, "cannot afford." Better multifunctional UDC.
    1. +3
      16 June 2022 13: 02
      So the whole article is about the fact that if you build, then only UDC.

      You are as usual.
      1. -2
        16 June 2022 13: 12
        The article is "smeared" - the author gives a bunch of examples in which he contradicts himself. That's why I decided to summarize.
        1. 0
          16 June 2022 15: 56
          Quote: TermNachTER
          The author gives a bunch of examples in which he contradicts himself.

          And in what?
          1. +1
            16 June 2022 21: 38
            Well, let's go point by point. 1. The choice as an example of using a promising helicopter carrier of the Black Sea is ridiculous. I'm not going to explain, I think it's clear. 2. One helicopter to provide anti-aircraft defense of the helicopter carrier itself is nonsense. During the war (pre-war state), when going to sea, at least a couple of frigates (corvettes) and not only ASWs will cover it, their HAC will provide much better close-range ASW than one turntable. Placing "calibers" on a helicopter carrier is not the most reasonable solution. We return to project 1143, which, due to the placement of "basalts", did not become either a good aircraft carrier or an attack ship. By the way, the statement that Project 1143 was created as a helicopter carrier and only then became TAVKR is also doubtful. My Nikolaev relative, who built them all, starting with the Kyiv and ending with the Varyag, said that from the first day at the plant they said that they were building an aircraft carrier, and not a helicopter carrier. By the way, I saw the "Varyag" on the slipway, in 1991 or 1992, when my ship called in Nikolaev. The use of a helicopter against enemy cruise missiles, I don’t even want to discuss. Even if there is an AWACS helicopter on board. The installation of a BD air defense system on board the helicopter carrier, as on the Invincible, is a repetition of the mistakes of the British. Maybe I missed something - sorry, I didn't "cling" to every sentence.
            1. 0
              17 June 2022 06: 33
              Quote: TermNachTER
              The choice as an example of using a promising helicopter carrier of the Black Sea is ridiculous. I'm not going to explain, I think it's clear.

              No, it’s not clear.
              Quote: TermNachTER
              2. One helicopter to provide anti-aircraft defense of the helicopter carrier itself is nonsense. During the war (pre-war state), when going to sea, at least a couple of frigates (corvettes) and not only ASWs will cover it, their HAC will provide much better close-range ASW than one turntable.

              One helicopter is needed IN ADDITION to escort ships. Once again, American practices will help you - they have 3-5 destroyers in escort, and even then helicopters are required.
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Placing "calibers" on a helicopter carrier is not the most reasonable solution. We return to project 1143, which, due to the placement of "basalts", did not become either a good aircraft carrier or an attack ship.

              For a specialized PLO helicopter carrier, Caliber is quite reasonable. There is no need to draw analogies with Basalts, the dimensions and mass of both missiles and installations are a multiple of lower
              Quote: TermNachTER
              By the way, the statement that Project 1143 was created as a helicopter carrier and only then became TAVKR is also doubtful. My Nikolaev cousin who built them all

              He BUILT them. And the creation of the ship begins a little earlier, with the TK and the project. So, initially 1143 is a helicopter carrier
              Quote: TermNachTER
              they are building an aircraft carrier, not a helicopter carrier

              1143 well, does not pull on an aircraft carrier
              Quote: TermNachTER
              The use of a helicopter against enemy cruise missiles, I don’t even want to discuss.

              And you will discuss this with bayard, he is actually a pro in air defense.
              Quote: TermNachTER
              The installation of a BD air defense system on board the helicopter carrier, as on the Invincible, is a repetition of the mistakes of the British.

              Specify where I have a BD air defense system on a helicopter carrier?
              1. 0
                17 June 2022 09: 29
                1. A helicopter carrier is not needed in the Black Sea, because the size of the sea makes it possible to get by with coastal-based aviation. The northwestern "corner" is generally inaccessible to submarines. Etc. 1123, were only based in Sevastopol, and they worked in the Mediterranean and beyond. 2. Two HAK frigates are definitely better than one lowered from a helicopter and they don’t need a turntable, in extreme cases they have their own. "Bjerki" as part of the mattress AUG perform completely different functions. 3. Name me one helicopter carrier on which the CRBD is located. 4. Ex. 1143 was built as a TAVKR, the takeoff and landing of "verticals" was tested on Project 1123. Everyone understands that it does not pull on a normal aircraft carrier. 4. If one aircraft tries to shoot down another, then this is no longer air defense, but the Air Force. The air defense system of the database is in pursuit of how the helicopter will provide air defense for the helicopter carrier.
                1. 0
                  17 June 2022 10: 25
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  A helicopter carrier is not needed in the Black Sea, because the size of the sea makes it possible to get by with coastal-based aviation.

                  And the Barents - do not allow? And Okhotsky? Or is a helicopter carrier near the "hornet's nest" vitally needed, patrol aircraft will not be able to cope?
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  2. Two HAK frigates are definitely better than one lowered from a helicopter and they don’t need a turntable, in extreme cases they have their own.

                  This is what you think. In reality, for a reliable ASW, direct escort ships (and preferably 3, not 2) and a constant helicopter patrol are needed. About "its own turntable" - does this turntable flies a lot from a frigate if it has 4-5 refueling fuels?
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  "Bjerki" as part of the mattress AUG perform completely different functions.

                  Berks perform the functions of air defense / anti-aircraft defense, and make up an order for an aircraft carrier. But at the same time, PLO helicopters on AB are required in an amount of up to 10 units and are working with might and main.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Name me one helicopter carrier on which the CRBD is located.

                  First, did you read the article at all? What other CRBD? PLUR!
                  Secondly, the Japanese Hyuuga helicopter carriers carry up to 12 PLURs in the UVP
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  . 4. Ex. 1143 was built as a TAVKR, the takeoff and landing of "verticals" was tested on Project 1123.

                  Again. BUILT, what you write about and CREATED, what I write about - these are not synonyms. CREATED - this is a little earlier than BUILT. And 1143 was created precisely as a development of the concept of anti-submarine cruisers, the idea to place VTOL aircraft on it arose later, although before the start of construction, but later than the start of design.
                  Furthermore. even when the ship was put into operation, 2 options for completing the air group were assumed - according to the situation, "Kyiv" was supposed to receive either a VTOL regiment or a regiment of anti-submarine helicopters, that is, even despite the presence of VTOL aircraft, the option of using "Kyiv" as a PLO helicopter carrier was preserved.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  If one aircraft tries to shoot down another, then this is no longer air defense, but the Air Force.

                  Do you think that you understand this issue better than a pro in air defense? What gives you reason to think so?

                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  The air defense system of the database is in pursuit of how the helicopter will provide air defense for the helicopter carrier.

                  Not air defense, but missile defense, and the air defense system of the database is no way here
  23. +2
    16 June 2022 09: 49
    Calculations of the effectiveness of helicopters in comparison with aircraft are certainly good. They show quite accurately how weak helicopters are. But why, for "comparison", a hypothetical helicopter carrier was thrust into a rather small and closed Black Sea - it is not clear.

    Such closed seas are, of course, dangerous for large ships. Countries that have aircraft carriers (whose planes certainly do a better job than helicopters) rarely take them to the closed seas. Usually, the AUG is brought to the strait leading to the closed sea, but they stop a couple of tens of kilometers from it, without entering the strait and the sea, and the aircraft itself flies to the sea to complete the task. Yes, an aircraft carrier, especially experienced Americans, has the ability to effectively repel strikes against them. But they understand that efficiency is not even 100℅. And they realize that once in the open sea, they may well be taken by a number of missiles (by launching 30 missiles, it is possible to miss about 5, and they will be enough to disable either the aircraft carrier itself or escort ships).
    But when convoying in large seas and large oceans, a helicopter carrier is quite capable of playing the role of a ship to cover convoys. This frees up other warships (including hypothetical aircraft carriers) to participate in direct combat operations. A helicopter carrier can be made cheaper by simply unifying the hull for the creation on its basis of not only a helicopter carrier, but also a UDC, a supply ship, a hospital ship. In the event of an emergency, when war is inevitable, with pre-thought-out dimensions of the hull, helicopter carriers can be strengthened by installing a springboard and arresters. Then in a short time we will receive escort aircraft carriers to protect our convoys. All the same, aircraft will give the best protection against enemy aircraft / missiles / ships and boats. At the same time, it will still be an ESCORT ship. He does not need such a large air group as a multi-purpose aircraft carrier. Only covering convoys (convoys by themselves, limit the options for possible threats that one has to face, no one will send a squadron of 30 fighters to the convoy and will not send a group of missile cruisers and several large destroyers), and sometimes strengthening large battle groups by performing secondary tasks.

    But all these arguments will not make sense until we solve the issue of the country's economy. Why did Japan, USA and China (in the near future) as well as Britain, France and Germany (in the recent past) have strong navies!? Because these were countries with active trade by sea. Their economies were built on the conversion of valuable resources between different parts of the world. They did it by sea. So their merchant fleets needed cover. They started to build a fleet. The fleet paid off with continued trade.
    And here a self-sustaining circle is formed.

    - Merchant fleet brings money
    - We build a navy with money
    - The navy protects its merchant fleet
    - the merchant fleet, being safe, expands trade
    - Merchant fleet brings more money
    - with new money we are building more ships of the navy for the expanding merchant fleet
    And so in a circle

    Without the economy, you can build a fleet, but it will simply rust in 40 years, and there will be no money to build a new one.
  24. +2
    16 June 2022 09: 53
    I used to spend money on a bunch of satellites. Everyone is looking to the future, and this SVO has shown weaknesses with drones. As well as impossibility has 24/7 intelligence over.
  25. +2
    16 June 2022 10: 03
    Welcome Andrew!
    Previously, ships were built under the wishes of the military-industrial complex, now they are being built under the political and economic decisions of the party and government! Why is UDC needed in the Black and Okhotsk Seas? Well, for "Moskalenko" Central Africa clearly shines, Rogov ... well, God himself ordered him to spin near the Kuril ridge!
    Protecting the deployment of SSBNs is undoubtedly important, I don’t even argue here, but judging by the latest events, the Supreme High Command decided to take a less costly and, as it turned out, more successful way to destroy the enemy .... what challenges to world politics will the current economic and political crises put forward in a year I don’t know, but I think few people know, but politics has always been a trendsetter not only for the world order, but also for the world military doctrine! Take, for example, project 22160, beaten up and down by everyone. In the light of the latest decisions of the Supreme High Command, it has found a second life!
    1. 0
      16 June 2022 13: 01
      building under the political and economic decisions of the party and government!


      They imitate the construction of the UDC for the sake of filling the budget of Zelenodolsk, r. Tatarstan.
      And yes, the fate of 20386 awaits them. In order to at least weld the hull and glue the superstructure, these will not even reach the stage of the hull with the superstructure.
      1. +2
        16 June 2022 13: 06
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        They imitate the construction of the UDC for the sake of filling the budget of Zelenodolsk, r. Tatarstan.

        File a complaint with the Attorney General!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        these will not even reach the stage of the hull with the superstructure.

        I remember you once buried the 20380th project!
        1. +5
          16 June 2022 15: 24
          I revived him! Well, let's just say I participated. But, alas, he will soon die.
          Kolomna diesel engines have imported turbochargers, piston and crankshaft forgings, and part of the fuel equipment.
          Zaslon did not take out deliveries of equipment for the radar even before the NWO.
          Now it won't last much longer.
          And SNSZ has run out of chemicals for composite superstructures, Sergey. Also under sanctions.

          The bosses so beloved by you will not take out the current situation. They will not overpower intellectually.
          So it goes.
          1. +2
            17 June 2022 15: 02
            They won’t take him out, they won’t overpower him, he will die soon, it’s over .... is this the end of the story, Alexander? Life has shown that as Nostradamus, you are somehow not very ......
            And the bosses are not my favorite ... they are either bosses or not bosses! And the anarchism you propagate has not yet brought anyone to good!
            1. +1
              18 June 2022 22: 34
              Life has shown that as Nostradamus, you are somehow not very ......


              Any unfulfilled predictions? 20386 buried - buried.
              Did you talk about changing Korolev to a new Commander-in-Chief? Changed.
              That the army is not particularly ready for Ukra warned? I warned you.
              What did the Navy sky-ready write? He wrote, as a result, the third one was already irretrievably lost against the enemy WITHOUT A FLEET.

              Nostradamus is a puppy compared to me.

              And the bosses are not my favorite ... they are either bosses or not bosses! And the anarchism you propagate has not yet brought anyone to good!


              I do not promote anarchism, I want "respectable people" to finally begin to answer for their jambs. Guessed - on the way out.
              And we have anarchy Sergey now. Anarchy and irresponsibility.
              So it goes.
              1. +1
                18 June 2022 22: 38
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                already the third unit is irretrievably lost against the enemy WITHOUT FLEET

                Who doesn't have a fleet, sorry? And who exactly in this sense do you consider an adversary?

                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Nostradamus compared to me puppy

                But comments good laughing
              2. +2
                20 June 2022 08: 23
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                20386 buried - buried.

                laughing good Oh Sasha, you are a comedian, I see!!!!
                He was originally not a tenant and without your humor wink
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Did you talk about changing Korolev to a new Commander-in-Chief? Changed.

                laughing It was not your vision, but a leak of information!
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                That the army is not particularly ready for Ukra warned?

                belay APU is already near Moscow??? Mobilization? Are the shells out???
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                the third unit is irretrievably lost against the enemy WITHOUT A FLEET.

                In a naval battle? Or from the unwillingness of some chiefs to forget peaceful days?
                Of the three, I consider only one a real loss, the death of which is still shrouded in fog.
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                I do not promote anarchism, I want "respectable people" to finally begin to answer for their jambs. Guessed - on the way out.

                Now is not peacetime, the country is in a state of war, strange, but war. But you, with your ... sometimes sucked out of your finger problems ... bring confusion and vacillation into the lazy minds of people who are simply too lazy to delve into the essence of the problem, it is easier for them to accept someone else's opinion as the truth! it was thanks to such people that the events of 1905, 1917, 1937-38, 1991 occurred, which resulted in millions of deaths of the inhabitants of the territory called Russia! Do you want the death of millions, Alexander???
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                And we have anarchy Sergey now

                And what is our anarchy?
  26. +2
    16 June 2022 10: 25
    "Gulf" is wonderful, but more recently there is also "Sea", the potential of which is huge. In the old days of socialist realism, everything was sculpted - from patrol boats to landing ships and hovercraft; products were exported to 26 countries of the World on 4 continents. There were branches of the Kamov and Mil factories in the neighborhood, so the flag was in hand. The Chinese, by the way, "were harassed for analysis" during the Ukrainian occupation, they dreamed of buying it, but not fate. The main thing is that we all grow together.
  27. Owl
    0
    16 June 2022 10: 31
    A helicopter carrier, in addition to performing anti-submarine service, can have its main purpose as a base and transport for attack and transport-attack helicopters. If there is enough determination and strength to expand Russia's zone of influence to remote regions of the planet, then a ship to provide PLO with a connection of transport, combat and landing ships and ships, during the transition to the area of ​​​​landing peacekeepers by parachute and landing method, and then, upon arrival, providing fire and transport support for peacekeepers with their own and brought helicopters, the organization of a full-fledged helicopter group with peacekeepers, from among the land-based helicopters brought in, may be useful in the service of the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet.
  28. -5
    16 June 2022 11: 01
    Actually, it scares me a lot that amateurs are allowed to publish materials on topics that were previously developed by entire specialized institutes of the USSR Ministry of Defense on the basis of a regulatory framework, i.e. military standards, general tactical and technical requirements. Experts worked there, whose qualifications, in general, were not in doubt, research was conducted in other specialized institutes of the Ministry of Defense, the defense industry and educational institutions, dissertations were defended. Today there are no institutes, no industry, no research personnel are being trained.
    What helicopter carriers are needed? By what date? And will the state exist by this time?
    1. +2
      16 June 2022 11: 22
      Quote: iouris
      Actually, it scares me a lot that amateurs are allowed to publish materials on topics that were previously developed by entire specialized institutes of the USSR Ministry of Defense on the basis of a regulatory framework, i.e. military standards, general tactical and technical requirements. Experts worked there, whose qualifications, in general, were not in doubt, research was conducted in other specialized institutes of the Ministry of Defense, the defense industry and educational institutions, and dissertations were defended.

      (heavy sigh). "The Ark was built by an amateur. The Titanic was built by professionals." (With)
      What are you afraid of, you might ask? What is wrongly written? Calm down, the institutions came to the same conclusions, so the topic of PLO helicopter carriers in the USSR was hacked to death on the Khalzan.
      1. -1
        16 June 2022 12: 18
        So let the "specialists" widely known in narrow circles discuss it. And, in general, what does this question have to do with WSO? Whether there will be life after the completion of the WSO or not, we still do not know.
    2. +4
      16 June 2022 12: 59
      Do you know that both Andrei and I are just here engaged in popularizing the conclusions of these experts, constantly repeating their conclusions, so that even a typical citizen not only understands, but REMEMBERS them?
    3. +5
      16 June 2022 15: 45
      Quote: iouris
      Experts worked there, whose qualifications, in general, were not in doubt, research was conducted in other specialized institutes of the Ministry of Defense, the defense industry and educational institutions, dissertations were defended.

      Yeah, yeah ... qualified experts from the 1st Institute of the Navy in August 1980 issued a positive opinion on the technical project 10200 ("Khalzan"). And at the end of September of the same year - negative. Based on the same data for the same project.

      What changed? Only one thing - Gorshkov returned from vacation, to whom 10200 stood across his throat, since he was supposed to be built instead of the second ship of project 11434. laughing
  29. -1
    16 June 2022 11: 06
    Quote: Izotovp
    Build a helicopter carrier and forget about the existence of UAVs?! With their ability to fly for days on difficult routes and different specializations.

    It's time to build a drone
  30. -2
    16 June 2022 12: 17
    Why are these drooling snots again: needed / not needed ..? The buildings have been laid down and will be built. Dot
    1. +4
      16 June 2022 12: 58
      Will not.
      There is no power plant, there is no project, the laying was formal, construction is not going on.
      It's not even 20386, it's just money in the budget of Zelenodolsk and that's it.
      1. +1
        16 June 2022 14: 32
        What Zelenodolsk what are you talking about? But I have information that construction is underway and has not even turned. And there is a project. It’s just that they didn’t send it to you for approval for some reason, but I think everything is ahead
        1. +1
          16 June 2022 15: 25
          Your information is worth three kopecks on a market day, mister balabolka.
          Let's take pictures of the keel, or sections of the hull, otherwise two years have passed since the laying.
          TWO.
          OF THE YEAR.

          Where is anything? The Japanese built Izumo in three years, in its entirety, and this, damn it, is an aircraft carrier.
          1. +1
            16 June 2022 15: 50
            A photo ? Are you out of your mind dear? Can you still transmit frequencies and ciphers? Please do not write nonsense if you are not in the subject and do not have information. Pass for smart, perhaps .. Regards.
            1. 0
              18 June 2022 22: 30
              Yes, you can neither convey nor report anything, and even without you I know that the ZPKB is still running around like scalded trying to finish the project.
              For him, there is not even a power plant.
              And 50 ruble approving commentators will not change this fact
  31. 0
    16 June 2022 12: 28
    And if you start from the unusual and ask yourself: what kind of aircraft (normal) will have short takeoff / takeoff run? The answer is biplanes. Advantages: work from a deck the size of a helicopter carrier, at least comparable combat load and speed, more time on duty in the air. Weaknesses: funny and unusual. What if...
  32. +2
    16 June 2022 12: 57
    The biggest axiom I've ever seen))
    1. +1
      16 June 2022 16: 48
      Well, the axiom is small, but the detailed proof for it is 2 articles laughing
  33. -1
    16 June 2022 13: 49
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: certero
    if you refuse to build them, then you can allocate resources to some other large surface ships.

    Russia TODAY is building two large helicopter carriers.

    Well, then what? Another waste of money. Because there is no fleet concept. And the admirals dream of fighting the Americans. More precisely, of course, they do not dream, but they justify their Wishlist precisely with this.
    It is clear to anyone who is not stupid that the future belongs to unmanned aerial vehicles, including at sea.
    It is on the basis of this understanding that the concept must be built. Nuclear submarines are not needed now, and the fleet should be sharpened to conduct such special operations as in Ukraine. Or in Syria.
    Tell me why are helicopter carriers needed in Syria? Or how would they help in the current special operation? Whom to use them against?
  34. 0
    16 June 2022 14: 13
    Why do people like to compare objects designed for different tasks so much - which is cooler than a tractor or a racing car? The author in the article describes the task of the PLO helicopter carrier as the defense of a ship formation from submarines, the task of the PLO aviation is operational response and monitoring (patrolling). Different tasks and means should be different - it is inconvenient to plow on a racing car. You need this and that and it is desirable so much that there is enough and a little with a margin
    1. +1
      16 June 2022 15: 52
      Quote: DrRey
      The author in the article describes the task of the PLO helicopter carrier as the defense of a ship formation from submarines

      Ahem ... the author charges the helicopter carrier with the following tasks:
      the task of searching for enemy submarines in a large area, which we impute to a helicopter carrier, and the task of anti-submarine defense of the helicopter carrier itself are two different tasks

      That is, a helicopter carrier is considered from the point of view of providing anti-aircraft defense of a certain area, and not a ship formation - as an analogue of basic patrol aviation. In this case, the tasks of the PLO of a ship formation are considered in the context of the PLO of the helicopter carrier itself.
    2. +1
      16 June 2022 15: 57
      Quote: DrRey
      Why do people like to compare objects designed for different tasks so much?

      Probably because the possibility of solving ONE problem with different types of forces is being studied.
  35. +3
    16 June 2022 16: 17
    If such a need arises, then 4-5 patrol aircraft, lifted into the air at the same time, are able to "sift" the water area of ​​​​a monstrous area in a few hours.

    wassat I liked this passage most of all in the author's speech ... Meanwhile, the effectiveness of any aircraft means of detecting submarines in the USSR Navy was extremely low. All these lowered GAS helicopters (which have not begun to work normally so far), sonar buoys, magnetic anomaly detectors of Il-38 aircraft had (have!) Just a meager detection range for submarines of NATO countries. Those. there is simply no question of any "sifting" of the sea in a few hours. Not to mention the price of the issue. I suspect that things were exactly the same in the USA - otherwise why would they have removed these same PLO aircraft from their aircraft carriers in the 90s? - IMHO due to complete inefficiency! (Compared to submarines and AUG escort ships)
    So I am of the opinion that the most effective anti-submarine weapon will be amphibious aircraft type A-40. - It is not surprising that our "democrats" and their "partners" from the USA tried to destroy it and prevent it from being adopted by the Navy. This plane is three times more mobile than a helicopter, not to mention the flight range. It carries a large armament compartment (where Caliber would fit perfectly now). And, most importantly, it can conduct long patrols using the exhaust antenna. extended hydroacoustic station "sitting" on the surface of the water. Here, both the range and quality of detection increase many times over in comparison with any aviation means of detecting submarines. With these devices, it was really possible to establish control over the underwater (and along the way, surface) situation in all coastal seas ... At least ...
  36. 0
    16 June 2022 16: 46
    Thus, I come to the conclusion that the only helicopter carrier that can really be useful to the Russian Navy is a universal landing ship.


    Probably more logical to say - universal aircraft carrier a ship that can be used for those tasks that will be most in demand. To do this, we also need VTOL aircraft, which would be useful not only to the fleet, but also to the army. Yes, the traditional deck is still stronger, but the VTOL aircraft can take off from any hole, from the smallest deck, in addition, it can use both a short takeoff and a traditional one, conventional aircraft do not have such a choice.

    I know, Andrei, you are not a supporter of "non-aircraft carriers", but they are not an alternative, but just an addition, and a very necessary addition in their universal quality. We must start with a real one, it is better to have a couple of universal aircraft carriers than nothing at all, and we need to return what has been achieved with the Yak-141 and its further development, otherwise we will fall behind here forever.
    1. +2
      16 June 2022 19: 16
      Quote: Per se.
      We must start with the real

      Dear Sergey, I would understand you if we had ready-made modern VTOL aircraft, even now in series. But we don’t have them close, the 141st has long been outdated in all respects, and there are no lines on which it should be done either.
      Therefore, if we talk about the real, then, in my IMHO (I do not at all claim that I own the Absolute Truth, all this is my opinion. Justified, but opinion) the most real thing that we can bring to a series is chess. And ChessMat - it seems that it promises to be a light, but decently thrust-armed fighter. We know how to make arresters, ski jumps too. So a medium-sized atomic one with a springboard and a Chess Regiment suggests itself :))))))
      1. 0
        17 June 2022 07: 34
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        141st has long been outdated in all respects
        Dear Andrey, I am not saying that the Yak-141 is "at least now in production", but we need to work on the topic, develop it further from the Yak-201. All this is experience, personnel, as in the construction of ships, the same aircraft carriers. We will lose specialists, technologies, we will fall behind forever, now is not the 30s of the last century, when it was possible to learn from the same Italians in cooperation to make cruisers and battleships, like the Chinese, no one will allow us to get a likeness of "Liaoning".

        As for "chess", VTOL aircraft are not a competitor to them, as well as to our other fighters, as well as an addition. Let there be "Checkmate", but VTOL aircraft must continue to be developed.
        About the fact that there is no money, excuse me, when 100 billion were flowing out of the country a month ... In addition, the Central Bank was not concerned with sponsoring its economy, its industry, but with making a profit. What we don't have is true independence in handpicked capitalism.

        Of course, this is just my personal opinion.
        1. +1
          17 June 2022 18: 36
          Quote: Per se.
          I am not saying that the Yak-141 is "at least now in production", but we need to work on the topic, develop it further from the Yak-201.

          And here I have a huge doubt about the need for this. Roughly speaking, we made the Su-57 a large, heavy and expensive fighter. He does not seem to be suitable for the role of a single VKS fighter. At the same time, its export potential is limited - like, in fact, any heavy fighter.
          Accordingly, something relatively light, but of the fifth generation, suggests itself. Our Aerospace Forces will also need such an aircraft, and it will be excellent for export. But at the same time, it is clearly not worth making it a VTOL aircraft - by definition, such an aircraft will not be cheap, and these are restrictions for both the Aerospace Forces and for export, plus many potential buyers are not interested in VTOL aircraft and will not be ready to put up with a decrease in performance characteristics / price increase due to this feature.
          Accordingly, it turns out that VTOL should be done in parallel with ChessMat, but not instead of it. And this is a huge additional expense, the development of a multifunctional fighter is very expensive. Despite the fact that there will not be a big series on it. In my opinion, the Americans made a huge mistake with their "three in one" F-35, which cost them a lot of money, time and a decrease in the performance characteristics of the F-35A and C from what was possible. We don’t have that kind of money, and the resource of engineers is not endless, so I think that it’s not worth spending it on VTOL aircraft. However, all this, of course, is debatable, but with a clear shortage of money, pull three fighter programs at once, and even four, if the MiG-41 has not died yet ...
          1. 0
            18 June 2022 13: 34
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And here I have a huge doubt about the need for this.

            In general, it is harmful and even dangerous to have no doubts; it is another matter that the one who wishes will find the possibilities, and not the one who wishes the reasons. I am for the development of VTOL aircraft, as this is new in aviation, which is the future. Yes, everything new is a problem, but there was a time when they made fun of airplanes. In wildlife, a short and vertical take-off is the main one, with a running start, like cranes, a minority takes off.

            If you remember the Yak-141, even he was a real flying aircraft, on which several world records were set, and it was from him that the USSR received a colossal lead from world competitors in this direction. Unfortunately, the same "ChessMat" is far from even the Yak-141.

            The Yankees could not at one time create serial verticals, they produced a licensed British craft for their KPM. It is not surprising that the F-35 is going poorly for them like a VTOL aircraft, but this is not stupidity, not a mistake, this is an aircraft for a real war, when kilometer-long runways and the entire airfield infrastructure will be instantly destroyed.

            Stupidity, these are ala platforms like "Armata", where on a crude, expensive and complex base, not mastered by industry, they want to get a universal "transformer", and more than "three in one", spending a lot of money on the development of "cat in bag." Everything that is created with our effective managers is for sale, and there is one big disappointment and waste. Therefore, only from Soviet backlogs, and on Soviet education, significant samples are still obtained.

            It's not about the number of programs, it's about the system itself, in which even one topic is not a guarantee of savings and efficiency.
            A great country needs not only an ocean fleet, it needs a national idea, an independent pole of power, people's power and a social orientation of the state.
            Then we will all be happy, on earth, in heaven and at sea.
            1. +1
              18 June 2022 15: 40
              Quote: Per se.
              another thing is that the one who wants will find opportunities, and not the one who wants reasons

              It's all about the goals we want to achieve. I point-blank see no military goals that could justify the existence of VTOL aircraft. The fleet does not need them, since the first task of naval IA is to gain air superiority, and VTOL aircraft are a priori inferior to conventional multi-role fighters, despite the fact that their carriers cannot wear normal AWACS. Landers don't need them either, because the only advantage a VTOL aircraft has is the ability to take off vertically. Theoretically, this gives a great advantage, since it allows you to take off without being tied to the airfield network, but in practice it is illusory - maybe VTOL is capable of
              Quote: Per se.
              take off from any hole

              but no one is able to provide both pre- and post-flight maintenance of the aircraft in this pit, and place fuel and ammunition supplies, etc. etc. The aircraft is tied not only to the runway, but also to the infrastructure, the VTOL aircraft is "untied" from the runway, but not from the infrastructure, so its basing in any pit is, well, such a thing.
              Quote: Per se.
              If you remember the Yak-141, even he was a real flying aircraft, on which several world records were set

              Just don't forget that world records were set in the VTOL category. That is, the world records of the Yak-141 were not at all those for conventional aviation.
              Quote: Per se.
              It is not surprising that the F-35 is going poorly for them like a VTOL aircraft, but this is not stupidity, not a mistake, this is an aircraft for a real war, when kilometer-long runways and the entire airfield infrastructure will be instantly destroyed.

              This is impossible even in a nuclear war. And without VTOL infrastructure - a toy for one sortie. It's much better to invest the same money in additional infrastructure / fighters and keep it than to try to survive without it.
              And yes, the Americans have at least the VTOL concept - they have a tactical niche for them in the ILC, which may be forced to operate in isolation from the coastline at improvised airfields (practically this has never happened)
              Quote: Per se.
              Stupidity, these are ala platforms like "Armata", where on a crude, expensive and complex base, not mastered by industry, they want to get a universal "transformer", and more than "three in one", spending a lot of money on the development of "cat in bag."

              This is exactly the right decision. It is necessary to create a platform for different types of equipment, and nothing else. Dampness and lack of development are being treated, for its time, the T-34 was both raw and undeveloped.
  37. +2
    16 June 2022 16: 56
    Andrew.
    Dear Andrey, I greet you.
    Since the beginning of quarantine, reading your articles with great interest, I began to look at many issues in the field of the Navy differently. Including about aircraft carriers.
    However, not all of your conclusions are 100% correct. I would like to add some thoughts. Consider the options.

    1) Auxiliary helicopter carrier.
    Like the mentioned ESB-3. Here you just need to understand that such a vessel is relatively simple to build, but it will also be purely auxiliary. Those. the main role will be played by the KUG, but the number of helicopters will double. A helicopter carrier with a hull built according to military standards can be a ship for the main purpose of a floating rear, or even just as a transporter - to place cargo and a couple of cargo helicopters on the deck.

    2) Helicopter carrier of special construction.
    Here the whole question is not whether we can (of course, yes), but why.
    He can only have one task. The fact is that, when listing the adjacent water areas, you missed the MEDITER-EARTH, and it was there that the USSR planned to use its carriers of helicopters and aircraft in the first place .. And this water area is difficult for us because it is almost closed - there are enemies all around, the only friendly the country (Syria) itself is vulnerable, moreover, there may be a need to be present at the other end of the Mediterranean, which stretches for almost 4 thousand km.
    And a lot depends on Turkey's position on the possibility of piloting an aircraft carrier through the Straits.
    If the task is to control bottlenecks (the Alboran Sea or the Sicilian Strait + maybe the Red Sea), then the helicopter carrier would show its advantages there (the ability to stay in the right place for a long time with a relatively small submarine search area), and aviation - alas, cons, because being based in Syria is risky.
    Under these conditions, a specialized helicopter carrier would be useful, but only on the condition that Turkey suddenly rests against the Montreux Convention. I imagine it as a reincarnation of "Baku" with the possibility of restructuring into a full-fledged Avik in a bright future. Only instead of Basalts, a large number of launchers for anti-submarine Calibers are needed.
    However, so far the Turks have not particularly appeared, so it’s better to build another aircraft-carrying hybrid with PLO aircraft.
    Or use the option "UDC as a floating base for helicopters"
    On the other hand, you can generally spin without large ships, if you do not control the entire Mediterranean, but only narrowness, and generally do not defend yourself from possible enemy attacks by ships or aircraft.

    Option 3. Cryptoaircraft carrier.
    You can follow the path of the Japanese and build a helicopter-carrying ship a little larger than Izumo, with the option of gradually rebuilding it into a small aircraft carrier. Only under the horizontal.
    If the Japanese are influenced by foreign policy factors, then we have internal factors - the disbelief of a part of society in the very possibility of building an aircraft carrier, difficulties in the aircraft industry due to sanctions, the underdevelopment of shipbuilding, etc. In addition, a light aircraft carrier can be built not instead of, but together with a normal one. But why helicopters? Because a light aircraft carrier may have problems using aviation in bad weather.
    I imagine this hypothetical ship like this:
    - dimensions between Khalzan and PBIA projects;
    - the ability to use helicopters in weather in which Kuznetsov can use aviation;
    - it should not be built at the factory where normal, larger ships can be built;
    - at the same time, it could be used for all the tasks of aircraft carriers, including auxiliary ones (such as training pilots, working out technical solutions) on long-distance expeditions, so as not to distract Kuznetsov and his hypothetical future successor from protecting SSBNs for this.

    Thus, there are still opportunities under which the construction of helicopter carriers will be justified, although, of course, if there is an opportunity not to show off and build a normal avik, then you need to build a normal avik.
    1. +1
      16 June 2022 19: 09
      Good evening! hi
      Quote from Evil Eye
      The fact is that, when listing the adjacent water areas, you missed the MEDITER-EARTH,

      I didn’t miss it, I just didn’t list it along with many other water areas. For the reason you voiced - we do not have the resources to solve the tasks of a naval war there in the event of a serious conflict. In order to have a real chance to do something there, it is necessary to revive 5 OPESK, an aircraft carrier multipurpose group (AMG) is needed - then yes, a helicopter carrier will be able to do something.
      Quote from Evil Eye
      Under these conditions, a specialized helicopter carrier would be useful, but only on the condition that Turkey suddenly rests against the Montreux Convention.

      Do not rest, there are no problems. In addition, no one requires a ship to be based in the World Cup, it is possible in the north.
      Quote from Evil Eye
      On the other hand, you can generally spin without large ships, if you do not control the entire Mediterranean, but only narrowness

      You see, we do not need narrowness. What we need in the Middle-Earth is the detection of first-strike SSBNs (the flight time is short from the Middle-Earth), their control, and destruction in case they start. And they don’t need to hide in any narrowness, the 6th Fleet, together with other NATO navies, will make such a bastion at the theater that you can’t break through any helicopter carrier.
      Still, you need to understand that the 5th OPESK in the USSR was formed with the aim that we would smash Turkey and capture the Straits, and here the 6th US Fleet was completely superfluous to us - that’s what we needed to neutralize it, and SSBNs, of course. Today, no invasions of Turkey are planned - for this it is necessary to have a different order of forces than that one. which is in the Russian Federation. The only task left is to control SSBNs
      Quote from Evil Eye
      You can follow the path of the Japanese and build a helicopter-carrying ship a little larger than Izumo, with the option of gradually rebuilding it into a small aircraft carrier. Only under the horizontal.

      What about the meaning? The aircraft carrier is valuable, among other things, for the size of the flight deck. We don’t have VTOL aircraft, so we’ll have to make a corner one in any way, and of such a size that it’s possible to take off with a range of 150 meters and, at the same time, land planes (Izumo can do this thanks to verticals). And this is the dimension of Kuznetsov. Further, if we succeed in anything, it is in shipboard nuclear power plants, and it is strange to do the aircraft carrier, which needs it most of all, on a solarium.
      Quote from Evil Eye
      In addition, a light aircraft carrier can be built not instead of, but together with a normal one.

      What for? The ship is created for specific tasks. We need the AB first of all to solve the problems of combat in the air, a small aircraft carrier does not answer such a task at all.
      1. 0
        17 June 2022 23: 56
        And good evening to you! Thank you for your reply!

        >> What's the point?
         
        I thought a lot about whether there is any benefit from light aircraft carriers with all their shortcomings. I'll try to justify what the benefits can be. There were a lot of letters, so I’ll break it into 3 comments. But first, the Mediterranean.
         
        >> we do not have the resources to solve the problems of naval warfare there in the event of a serious conflict.
         
        Unfortunately you are right! However, as you yourself write,
         
        >> Only the task of controlling SSBNs remains
         
        For this, bottlenecks in the Mediterranean need to be controlled - in order to fix the concentration of enemy submarines there.
         
        >> And they don’t need to hide in any narrowness, they will make the 6th Fleet, together with other NATO navies, make such a bastion at the theater that you can’t break through any helicopter carrier.
        Undoubtedly! But the displacement, and even more so the attack of our forces in the Mediterranean, will give us the opportunity to understand that things smell like kerosene, and begin dispersing our strategic nuclear forces and bringing troops to combat readiness.
        I read your article “On the role of the Russian Navy in preventing nuclear war” and, as I understand it, in the scenario that you called “A very big mistake”, the Americans can try to launch a nuclear attack on our country ... But for this you need to accumulate submarines in nearby to us water areas _secretly_. Obviously, attracting surface ships, attacking our forces is a loss of stealth.
        Accordingly, our ships are not required to fight the US 6th Fleet at all. It is enough just to make an inconspicuous concentration of nuclear submarines in the Middle-earth impossible, or to hold out like a samurai for some time under attacks, buying time for our main forces.
        Returning to the topic of the article, I imagine the use of helicopter carriers as follows: a small group of our ships (frigates or even corvettes) searches for submarines in narrow places (because it is too difficult to control the whole sea), and to increase autonomy, a relatively inexpensive supply vessel with ammunition and fuel, also capable of carrying several helicopters on a flat deck.
         
        You just need to convince the people that this is never a child prodigy, that, as you yourself write, the characteristics of helicopter carriers differ no less than the characteristics of SSBNs from PLATs, or the characteristics of a fighter from a bomber, although both are submarines and aircraft, respectively.
        >> Do not rest, there are no problems.
         
        I'll be glad if that's the case. Then a specialized helicopter carrier will remain a technical curiosity from the past, which you don’t have to spend time on unnecessarily)))
        True, I studied to be a lawyer, so I swim in technical matters, but I am nervous about wording. And the wording in the Montreux Convention is such that, in principle, one can formally cling to them. But, I repeat, if there are no problems, then thank God.
         
        >> In addition, no one requires a ship to be based in the World Cup, it is possible in the north.
         
        Undoubtedly! But it is still inconvenient if the goal is to be present in the Mediterranean, to sail across the Atlantic every time. I would like to cut the distance.
      2. 0
        17 June 2022 23: 57
        Now about the "Russian Izumo". Can...
          
        >> An aircraft carrier is valuable, among other things, for the size of the flight deck. We don’t have VTOL aircraft, so we’ll have to make a corner one in any way, and of such a size that it’s possible to take off with a range of 150 meters and, at the same time, land planes (Izumo can do this thanks to verticals).
         
        Undoubtedly! But it's not about repeating the design of the "Japanese". Here we are only talking about approximate dimensions and the ideology itself - to make a helicopter-carrying ship, fix the implementation of the minimum program (use of helicopters) and, if possible, “finish with a file” this combat unit, knowing that in any case it will be able to complete the minimum task.
         
        In particular, a catapult could be brought to mind on it - again, without even worrying about the lack of serial decks for it. And with a catapult, the requirements for the dimensions of the deck, whatever one may say, will be simplified. But I think that a light aircraft carrier will be combat-ready even without a catapult.
         
        However, of course, you need to design immediately with a corner deck and under the horizontal.
         
        Back to size.
         
        Here I note that due to the square-cube law, the dimensions of the deck decrease disproportionately to the displacement, especially considering that the width decreases first of all, and the deck itself protrudes beyond the hull.
         
        So, for the PBIA project - close to Izumo in size - the deck (moreover, the corner one) was planned to be shorter than that of Nimitz, only a quarter, with a displacement three times less, and 1/6 shorter than that of Kuznetsov, with a displacement half as much.
         
        So, while the reduced deck creates problems, more problems will come from the displacement itself and the roll restrictions.
         
        Finally, I indicated the dimensions approximately. The idea is not to win the miniature competition. The idea is different, try to meet approximately the following requirements:
         
        1) Dimensions not less than those that allow the use of helicopters in severe pitching;
        2) But no more than those that would make it possible to build a light aircraft carrier in a workshop of the second magnitude and pass through the Panama Canal.
        3) Well, at a moderate cost, of course.
         
        If it is impossible to keep within these parameters, then this project will also turn out to be an unnecessary technical curiosity. But if possible, then he has prospects. In the end, it is quite possible that we can reach even the size of De Gaulle. This is no longer a light, but a medium aircraft carrier.
         
        >> strange aircraft carrier, which needs it most of all, to do on a solarium.
         
        And this is just not necessary! Again, the example of "De Gaulle". Light aircraft carrier - it is only light compared to other aircraft carriers, and much larger compared to nuclear cruisers. And if you can put a nuclear power plant on a cruiser, then you can also put it on a small avik. We also have experience in creating nuclear power plants for submarines.
      3. 0
        17 June 2022 23: 59
        ... And we want to!

        >> Why?
         
        I'll try to prove it!
        Of course, the easiest way would be to say - "first practice on an easy one, fill the bumps and build a big one." But, alas, time is running out, but there is still experience, so you need to build a big one right away.
        However, here there are restrictions on infrastructure, on personnel (both builders and future sailors), on whether we will have time to build a commensurate number of carrier-based aircraft, on our organizational mess, finally. It turns out that if we cannot demonstrate the ability for industrial development at Stalinist rates (without Stalinist excesses), then in all other options it is realistic to count on the construction of one large aircraft carrier in 10-15 years. And that's for happiness. And we, as I understood from numerous discussions, would need 2 each in the Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet. And we have a lot of tasks in shipbuilding. In fact, the entire fleet needs to be revived, if not from scratch, then from a deep crisis.
         
        Therefore, I think that the ability to rivet a ship in parallel is much more modest (for speed), which will be combat-ready even without aircraft, will be useful for us. Especially if you collect it from already mastered elements.
        Well, for example. You recall that Kuznetsov cannot simultaneously carry out air defense and anti-aircraft defense missions. And if you take the PLO helicopters and transfer them to the proposed "our Izumo", then Kuznetsov can fully concentrate on air battles, and the second - on the search for submarines.
        You can also provide short-term accommodation for Marines.
        Two aircraft carriers, of course, are better than one and a half. But one and a half is better than one!
         
         
        >> The ship is created for specific tasks. We need the AB first of all to solve the problems of combat in the air, a small aircraft carrier does not answer such a task at all.
         
        Absolutely right! However, I believe that there are still tasks. And not only in the short term (passing out need for virtue), but also in the long term.
        The point here is that - again, as I personally understood - it is better for our large aircraft carriers not to go far from the "bastions" with submarines. Protecting the "bastions" is their main task. Accordingly, for them, fighting in the air is a fight against a strong enemy for destruction.
        However, the fleet should not be a purely defensive tool. And it turns out that it is risky and costly to allocate a large aircraft carrier for some expeditionary operations.
        And the farther from the poles, the less restrictions on rolling (as far as I understand) the light avano-carrier has, so you can entrust this task to him. Because a small Avik is not so valuable, and can be initially imprisoned for indirect actions. For example, on a cruising war (or a plausible threat thereof). Instead of competing with the US AUG, we can create a ship, albeit limited in combat capabilities, but inexpensive and more powerful than any other non-carrier ship, including any VTOL carrier. And, thanks to air reconnaissance, capable of escaping from the AUG. And other tasks may arise if we think for the future. For example, the protection of convoys. Or impact on the coast, including landing, against a weak enemy (not a NATO member, of course). It is possible that against the backdrop of complicated relations with the West, they will warm up with Iran, and we will get the opportunity to be present in the Indian Ocean.
        In general, there are many tasks, it would be the ability to find and solve them from our superiors!
        1. 0
          18 June 2022 10: 16
          Quote from Evil Eye
          For this, bottlenecks in the Mediterranean need to be controlled - in order to fix the concentration of enemy submarines there.

          There is no such. Firstly, we are talking about the strength of 3 SSBNs, and secondly, after the passage of Gibraltar, they do not need to go into any narrowness.
          Quote from Evil Eye
          But the displacement, and even more so the attack of our forces in the Mediterranean, will give us the opportunity to understand that things smell like kerosene, and begin dispersing our strategic nuclear forces and bringing troops to combat readiness.

          The fact of the matter is that this will work only with a sufficiently strong squadron, and we do not have the opportunity to assemble it there.
          A helicopter carrier and several frigates - the maximum that we can send there - will have to be dispersed over a large area, while their movements will be easily controlled by NATO. And there will be no difficulty either to bring SSBNs to where our ships are not, or to disable the nearest one at the time of a missile strike. In this case, the country's leadership will receive a message about the attack approximately simultaneously with the fall of the nuclear warhead on Moscow
          Quote from Evil Eye
          Of course, the easiest way would be to say - "first practice on an easy one, fill the bumps and build a big one."

          So there are Kuznetsov, train - I don’t want to :)))
          Quote from Evil Eye
          then in all other options it is realistic to count on the construction of one large aircraft carrier in 10-15 years. And that's for happiness.

          In general, yes, but if you do it now, then it’s quite realistic to get 3 AB in 40 years. Which will give 1 AB for the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet in the ranks and one under repair.
          Quote from Evil Eye
          Therefore, I think that the ability to rivet a boat in parallel is much more modest (for speed)

          Why do you need speed here? :)))) If you repair "Kuznetsov" normally, then as a school desk it will serve for another 15-20 years for sure. And the small AB you propose cannot solve the problems of AB, that is, its mass construction is pointless.
          Quote from Evil Eye
          Well, for example. You recall that Kuznetsov cannot simultaneously carry out air defense and anti-aircraft defense missions. And if you take the PLO helicopters and transfer them to the proposed "our Izumo", then Kuznetsov can fully concentrate on air battles, and the second - on the search for submarines.

          What for? In the event of a conflict with NATO, Kuznetsov's task will be to provide air cover for the deployment of our nuclear submarines in the Norwegian - both anti-aircraft and anti-submarine "components". A helicopter carrier will not survive in Norwegian - only submarines and patrol aircraft
          Quote from Evil Eye
          However, the fleet should not be a purely defensive tool. And it turns out that it is risky and costly to allocate a large aircraft carrier for some expeditionary operations.
          And the farther from the poles, the less restrictions on rolling (as far as I understand) the light avano-carrier has, so you can entrust this task to him.

          No. Or we are on the verge of a war with NATO, and then there can be no talk of any expeditions - a small AB is not needed. Or we are not on the verge of war with NATO, and then, if necessary, the expedition, we can use the normal AB. Finally, it is undesirable to use ersatz-AV in expeditions against someone stronger than pygmies - due to innately low combat qualities, even ordinary coastal anti-ship missiles or single attacks by strike aircraft will become a mortal danger for him.
          Quote from Evil Eye
          For example, for a cruising war (or a plausible threat thereof).

          Generally not needed. Not his job
          Quote: Evil Eye
          For example, protection of convoys.

          Can not. Mainly due to the absence of convoys outside the coastal navigation zone, for which AB is not needed to cover.
          Quote from Evil Eye
          Instead of competing with the US AUG, we can create a ship, albeit limited in combat capabilities, but inexpensive and more powerful than any other non-carrier ship, including any VTOL carrier

          Eugene, a ship that can fully use VTOL aircraft, was built by the British. It has a displacement of over 60 thousand tons.
          1. 0
            18 June 2022 13: 12
            You are categorical! But I still allow myself to continue the polemic))
            True, I am a completely civilian, so I can be mistaken, but the arguments have not ended yet))

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Firstly, we are talking about the strength of 3 SSBNs, and secondly, after the passage of Gibraltar, they do not need to go into any narrowness.



            And in the Strait of Gibraltar itself, can we keep a detachment of forces? Right in it.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So there are Kuznetsov, train - I don’t want to :)))


            I meant to train in construction; )
            Kuznetsov was built by another civilization, we can only learn to swim on it))

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In general, yes, but if you do it now, then it’s quite realistic to get 3 AB in 40 years. Which will give 1 AB for the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet in the ranks and one under repair.


            And they could get 2,5 AB in 15 years; )

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And the small AB you propose cannot solve the problems of AB


            Well, why not. In calm seas, it might well be. In the same Mediterranean
            Yes, and in high latitudes, if the weather is good.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            What for? In the event of a conflict with NATO, Kuznetsov's task will be to provide air cover for the deployment of our nuclear submarines in the Norwegian - both anti-aircraft and anti-submarine "components".


            But if, in the process of deployment, the NATO forces decide to attack us, it will be difficult for Kuznetsov to defend himself from enemy aircraft and submarines at the same time.


            Regarding the "threshold of war with NATO" and escort.

            And what if there is not a hot war, and not a “threshold of war” that can be endured, but some kind of long-term cold economic war at sea? Suppose we are given crippling sanctions, making maritime transportation as difficult as possible - but without direct attacks, so as not to give a reason. And we will have to look for partners all over the world, and maybe we will find somewhere in Latin America, Africa or Southeast Asia. And there is no other way to trade with them.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Or we are on the verge of a war with NATO, and then there can be no talk of any expeditions - a small AB is not needed


            Why? Maybe an overseas expedition will turn the balance of power and turn out to be salvation. Expedition is not only "Killing Zusuls" in the colonial spirit. Perhaps there will be such a situation that we will have the opportunity to transfer a convoy with weapons to some hot spot and create an extra headache for NATO. Some kind of conditional Maduro. Or get to the western oil platforms.


            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Or we are not on the verge of war with NATO, and then, if necessary, the expedition, we can use the normal AB.



            Let's say. And if you have to act as an aircraft carrier formation? And we have only one free large avik. A connection from one and a half ships is stronger than from one))

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Finally, it is undesirable to use ersatz-AV in expeditions against someone stronger than pygmies - due to innately low combat qualities, even ordinary coastal anti-ship missiles or single attacks by strike aircraft will become a mortal danger for him.


            But I do not propose to step on the Falkland rake! Do not build _so_ ersatz. We will have full-fledged horizontal take-off carrier-based aircraft, the same as at Kuznetsovo. On media one and a half times thicker than Invisible. If you manage to stick a catapult, then even with an AWACS aircraft. Why can't they intercept single planes? It's very strange for me to read this. And to defend against anti-ship missiles by maintaining a distance beyond the limit for anti-ship missiles.

            Here we first need to discuss what kind of enemy we can, in principle, face. For an assault, a full-fledged coastal defense of c.-l. overseas country we have neither the strength nor the motives. Bombing guerrillas for years, as in Vietnam, is also, and indeed, that situation was unique. For us, the most realistic thing is to come to the aid of some ally (like Bashar al-Assad) in the war against democratic insurgents. At least he can provide us with intelligence. And if the insurgents turn out to be too strong, organize the evacuation of the allies.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Generally not needed. Not his job


            Why do you think so? It seems to me that no one has simply tried it yet - to use AB on communications.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Eugene, a ship that can fully use VTOL aircraft, was built by the British. It has a displacement of over 60 thousand tons.


            So we don’t need VTOL aircraft! Or are you saying that even a ship of this size will not be easy to sink? But this is a matter of tactics. And in general, we have rockets for such whales.

            Finally a counter question. Here is the original Izumo, which right now is already openly being converted into verticals - is he dangerous for us or not? (As part of a compound, of course, and not alone)? I think it's dangerous, and we won't be able to damage it with a lone bomber or Caliber. Why, in the opposite case, with a better than the "Japanese" ship, everything should be so bad?
            1. +1
              18 June 2022 15: 23
              Quote from Evil Eye
              And in the Strait of Gibraltar itself, can we keep a detachment of forces? Right in it

              We can, but it's pointless. In this case, it is possible that we will discover SSBNs, but they will simply not let us accompany them, there are such methods. As a matter of fact, even our nuclear submarines managed to drop surveillance from the tail after the passage of Gibraltar, under the dominance of NATO ships.
              Quote from Evil Eye
              I meant to train in construction; )

              What for? It’s easier to train right away on a normal ship. Oddly enough, but in a certain sense it is easier to build a large ship - you don’t need to make it smaller :))))
              Quote from Evil Eye
              And they could get 2,5 AB in 15 years; )

              No, they couldn't - what you propose, in essence, AB cannot perform tasks.
              Quote from Evil Eye
              Well, why not. In calm seas, it might well be. In the same Mediterranean
              Yes, and in high latitudes, if the weather is good.

              The task of the AB is to be able to keep a certain number of aircraft in the air constantly / around the clock (patrols) and be able to quickly provide support if the patrols need it. The dimensions of the deck are very important here, because the aircraft can prepare for departure only on it, it is strictly forbidden to keep refueled / armed aircraft in the hangar for obvious reasons. At the same time, the aircraft must be able to provide takeoff and landing operations simultaneously.
              To fight for air, it is necessary that the AB ensure the operation of a regiment of multifunctional fighters (24 pieces), i.e. so that, if necessary, most of it could be in the air. Nimitz can fly 35-40 aircraft in one battle group without much trouble. Maybe more, but that's already a problem. Kuznetsov, according to calculations, was supposed to raise up to 18, and, in principle, this could well be enough to deal with a single American AB, since part of his aircraft would go in a shock version.
              If you want AB for colonial wars, then the same air regiment will be needed there - one squadron provides constant air watch for a pair of fighters, and, if necessary, its reinforcement, the second one can work on ground targets.
              Simply put, to influence the enemy far away, you need at least 24 fighters. You can achieve this by building two small ABs for 12 fighters, or one for 24. One for 24 will cost significantly less, but will be more effective than 2 * 12.
              Quote from Evil Eye
              But if, in the process of deployment, NATO decides to attack us

              Then the PLO issue will be resolved in other ways
              Quote from Evil Eye
              And we will have to look for partners all over the world, and maybe we will find somewhere in Latin America, Africa or Southeast Asia.

              And we will trade, why is AB here?
              Quote from Evil Eye
              Perhaps there will be such a situation that we will have the opportunity to transfer a convoy with weapons to some hot spot and create an extra headache for NATO.

              If we are not at war with NATO at the same time, AB is not needed. If we are at war, a small AB will not help.
              Quote from Evil Eye
              And if you have to act as an aircraft carrier formation? And we have only one free large avik. A connection of one and a half ships is stronger than one))

              No. I repeat once again - an aircraft carrier is just a mobile airfield, and a ton of a ship with a large displacement always costs less than a ship of the same purpose but with a small displacement.
              Simply put, by going to small aircraft carriers you will reduce the number of carrier-based aircraft than if you went to large ones. If it’s quite simple, then with the money you spend on 3 aircraft carriers of 12 aircraft, you can build 2 of 24.
              Quote from Evil Eye
              We will have full-fledged horizontal take-off carrier-based aircraft, the same as at Kuznetsovo. On media one and a half times thicker than Invisible. If you manage to stick a catapult, then even with an AWACS aircraft. Why can't they intercept single planes? It's very strange for me to read this.

              Because to ensure round-the-clock AWACS duty, you need at least 3 of them, but better than 4. If you don’t have them, then the duty will not be round-the-clock, and the enemy will strike exactly when the flying “saucer” will not shine (he’s not stupid, and at least he has the most primitive means of radio intelligence). And a small air group will not allow you to simultaneously hold a patrol over the AB and attack ground targets. That is, any attack will be combined with the risk of death of the AB in the event of a counterattack. And any normal admiral will not dare to fight with one small AB, but will want two. But a larger AB with the same air group will cost less than two small ABs, and it will give more comfort and opportunities.

              Quote from Evil Eye
              Finally a counter question. Here is the original Izumo, which right now is already openly being converted into verticals - is he dangerous for us or not?

              Dangerous. But this danger is not at all parried by the construction of a ship similar to Izumo
              1. 0
                20 June 2022 23: 20
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                SSBNs, in this case, we may possibly discover, but they won’t let us corny accompany them


                But we do not need to accompany them, we just need to give a signal that 2-3 SSBNs have entered the Mediterranean. This requires a couple of ships in the strait. And if the command decides to try to attack them, then the reserve group in Alboran, masked in traffic, can do it. Or in the Sicilian Strait, because. enemies, in theory, need to swim as close as possible to reduce the launch distance.


                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Oddly enough, but in a certain sense it is easier to build a large ship - you don’t need to make it smaller :))))


                In some ways yes, in some ways no. In terms of layout, a large one is, of course, easier to build. Compact dimensions require a careful approach.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                the PLO issue will be resolved in other ways


                I would be glad if we have such an opportunity. However, many write that we have not very good with the PLO forces. Plugging this hole will take time.
                TNW if only applied.

                Here it makes sense to compare the light AB in terms of price, speed and construction time not with aircraft, but with an outfit of forces capable of performing the functions of an ASW in the Kuznetsov order.
                Maybe you mean patrol planes. But here the question arises of how quickly we can produce the required number of them and whether helicopters with a towed sonar would be preferable in this case.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Dangerous. But this danger is not at all parried by the construction of a similar


                Logically. Izumo's danger must be countered with stronger ships.
                But if Izumo is dangerous, then his counterpart can be useful for us. Not against the Japanese, but in other cases.

                Regarding convoy. First, a caveat - the proposed light aircraft carrier IMHO is needed to reinforce the order with helicopters (even if it already has Kuznetsov), or for cruising.
                And escorting and impact on the coast are already options.

                As I see these options. First, the prerequisites. There are two of them: politics and economics. Politics is the accomplished cooling of relations with the West and the boiling of the international situation as a whole, and hence the possible situations when it would be beneficial for us to support c.l. friendly mode, and they will interfere with us.
                The economy is a sanctions reality, which, IMHO, is now for a long time. And hence - the possibility that you will have to import and export some kind of "prohibited", which will cause displeasure in the West. And the cargo will not be grain or oil, but, for example, valuable equipment. And it is not always possible to act covertly, as smugglers do.

                In this regard, situations may arise when, under a plausible pretext, they can arrest, delay the cargo (and sometimes time is expensive), attack the ship with a torpedo and then get away with it, provide target designation to their proxies if they can get us from the shore, etc. - in a word, to put sticks in the wheels, not giving a reason for war.

                And for us it seems reasonable to collect ships in convoys and send them under guard.

                Next you write:

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                If we are not at war with NATO at the same time, AB is not needed. If we are at war, a small AB will not help.


                As I understand it, there are intermediate gradations between the poles of “no war” and “total war”, hence all these tricks with “flag demonstrations”, this is both at sea and on land - when the armed forces, by the very fact of their presence, beat off enemy hunting to commit provocations.
                But the presence must be convincing.
                Well, look. We are not at war with NATO now. But nevertheless, they are forced to block the Black Sea coast in order to prevent the supply of the enemy by sea. We even take losses. And at the beginning of the NWO, the ships went to the Mediterranean to drive away the Westerners - although again there was no war.
                In this example, the NATO proxy opposes us, and we block the water area, but it can be the other way around - we deliver the goods, and the western proxies are trying to prevent us from approaching the coast.

                It seems that the situation is artificial, but there are recent examples of this. Here is Syria, where they had to drive cargo by warships. But the militants had nothing against our ships. And 2 years ago, Iran drove tankers to Venezuela - everything seemed to end well for them, but there were fears, and the Venezuelan Navy met these tankers. A similar situation could have been in Libya if we had intervened then.

                Finally, it cannot be ruled out that the war will begin with an attack on a valuable convoy. Here he comes - there is no war. And then they intercept him - and the war began.

                Of course, a light AB will not give absolute protection here, but only the Soviet OPESK would protect against a massive attack, and this is redundant for a convoy. But AB in the role of an escort can dramatically increase the risk of losses for the enemy in the event of such an attack. At least thanks to aerial reconnaissance.
              2. 0
                20 June 2022 23: 36
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                If you want AB for colonial wars, then... You need at least 24 fighters. You can achieve this by building two small ABs for 12 fighters, or one for 24. One for 24 will cost significantly less, but will be more effective than 2 * 12.


                But let me, why 12? The same Izumo, as they say, can fit up to 20 fighters + helicopters.
                As I understand it, you take into account PLO helicopters, but escort ships can also carry them, especially if we expect that there will be no sudden backstab from NATO.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The task of the AB is the ability to maintain a certain number of aircraft in the air constantly / around the clock (patrols) and be able to quickly provide support if the patrols need it ...

                To fight for air, it is necessary that the AB ensure the operation of a regiment of multifunctional fighters (24 pieces), i.e. so that, if necessary, most of it could be in the air. Nimitz can fly 35-40 aircraft in one battle group without much trouble. Maybe more, but that's already a problem. Kuznetsov, according to calculations, was supposed to raise up to 18, and, in principle, this could well be enough to deal with a single American AB, since part of his aircraft would go in a shock version.


                Well, this is the ideal situation, I understand. But this is in the event that we are confronted by an enemy who has aviation. At least the level of Argentina. And so far, in the role of a potential enemy, we may have numerous, but lightly armed rebels in pickup trucks.
                In addition, the tactics may be as follows - try to "calibrate" enemy aircraft (if any) with the first volley, and let the planes to the shore only if this is generally successful.

                You write about the fight against the American AB, and I propose to consider a situation where he is not around and the fight will not be with him. I think bayard is considering something similar. In the end, we are somehow spinning now without AB at all, but so far the NATO people are not drowning us at every opportunity (spit and knocked). And for head-on skirmishes, we have Kuznetsov, who must be protected for this.


                Then we can be threatened by ground-based anti-ship missiles, drones, in the worst case, single aircraft. But anti-ship missiles can be kept out of their range, and a single aircraft will blindly search for the main target, bumping into escort ships. Unless, of course, we take precautions. And if air defense rebels have only wearable air defense systems, then a truncated squadron can be sent to the attack.

                An aircraft carrier here might not be needed at all - it will be limited to the transfer of Air Force aircraft and land cargo from a transporter. But the situation may be such that a friendly regime simply does not have a safe air base, and the existing ones may be under attack by drones and artillery. And in Syria, EMNIP at the first stage was like that. And the landing forces may be threatened not by coastal defense (which will not be), but by shelling from somewhere in the depths of the territory, which, as NVO shows, is extremely dangerous. To overcome these threats, carrier-based aviation and an aircraft carrier will be required, at least a light one, which IMHO in this case will be even more useful than UDC. Because the UDC is redundant purely for the transfer of troops, over-the-horizon landing is also redundant, and it can be needed only if the enemy has strong coastal defenses, but then you will need a full-fledged AB, and artillery platforms, and much more that we have it won't be soon.

                In the future, of course, I would like to have a large beautiful universal AB, unequivocally ejection, in order to intervene not only against a deliberately weak enemy, but when it will still be and whether the command will risk it ...

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And any normal admiral will not dare to fight with one small AB, but will want two.


                Finally, when working along the coast, if the enemy has any kind of aircraft, in any case, an aircraft carrier should have two. Well, at least that's what I've read. One AB is vulnerable during the preparation of a raid (when aircraft in strike equipment accumulate on the deck, and fighters are needed) or during the reception of a group (because it cannot retreat from a sudden attack, well, or it can, but then the aircraft will plop into the water). Therefore, 2 ABs are needed as part of the compound - to cover each other. Then even 2 not quite full-fledged ABs (Kuznetsov and the proposed light one) could confidently act, compensating for each other's shortcomings.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Because to ensure round-the-clock duty of AWACS, they need at least 3 pieces, but 4 is better.


                Certainly.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                If you do not have them, then the duty will not be around the clock, and the enemy will strike just then,


                If it was not possible to ensure round-the-clock duty, then simply move away to a safe distance between attacks.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                when the flying "saucer" will not shine (he is not stupid, and at least he has the most primitive means of radio intelligence).


                But don't AWACS work in a passive mode? And is it possible then to somehow imitate their work so that the enemy is not exactly sure whether they work or not?
                In general, I think that if the problem is only in the AWACS, then here you can "spin around somehow."
                Again, you are considering an enemy of the level of Argentina, considering that not only aviation, but even RTR is. I'm not sure that the Wahhabis had it all.
  38. msm
    -1
    16 June 2022 17: 10
    If we had mistrals, then Odessa and Nikolaev would have been ours for a long time!
  39. 0
    16 June 2022 17: 10
    subjectively, a deliberate waste of money. The NVO generally asks, and soon, for an analysis of the actions of all types of aviation. Build and keep from the coast with anti-ship missiles for 300 -400 km? If the Su 27 K passes these km in minutes, then at helicopter speed only an idiot will not understand what goes where and why it flies
  40. The comment was deleted.
  41. -1
    16 June 2022 17: 40
    Quote: Eagle Owl
    If there is enough determination and strength to expand Russia's zone of influence to remote regions of the planet

    Enough strength and determination to take Slavyansk. And stop the active destruction of Donetsk.
    It would have been a holiday.
  42. 0
    16 June 2022 18: 00
    Our Kuzya will be modernized and there will be planes, helicopters, UAVs + powerful anti-submarine weapons + air defense
  43. +1
    16 June 2022 20: 38
    Modern reconnaissance is carried out by a shift drone operator that can fly for days with remote control. Why then huge helicopter carriers?
    1. 0
      17 June 2022 15: 36
      Quote from Velmi Shin
      Modern reconnaissance is carried out by a shift drone operator that can fly for days with remote control.

      Yeah. And he can fly with geese too. Can you name any drone that has the capabilities of a PLO helicopter (I don’t even stutter about the plane) and is capable of patrolling for 24 hours?
      Actually, you will cut yourself off already at the 1st part of the question, because there are no drones with similar functionality in nature.
  44. +3
    17 June 2022 01: 12
    Came up to
    The need to create a helicopter carrier, like any other class of military equipment, is determined by the tasks facing the armed forces of the country in general and its navy in particular

    and already tired.
    How I visited the 27th Congress of the CPSU.
  45. ada
    -1
    17 June 2022 03: 42
    All this is very exciting, but reality puts other conditions. Leave the entrance to the street - do you see many signs of the presence of "builders" of a strong fleet? Here! They need to be raised!
    A simple slight bias in the balance of power not in favor of the United States, which manifested itself by the year 20, forced them to prepare and initiate a rather large armed conflict in Europe with our direct participation, literally within a couple of years! Yes, on the old plans, albeit truncated, but really effective. Yes, if it weren’t for the CBO, it would have been worse, but they weren’t too late either. Yes, if it weren’t for our bucking, by the year 25 they would have been better prepared and, most likely, with fewer losses, they would have occupied the Ukrainian bridgehead with NATO forces and, under a UN mandate, would have locked both the Crimea and our fleet and neutralized our joint with Belarus grouping of aircraft on its territory completely. At the same time, the confrontation only at the very beginning and with all the difficulties is not in favor of the West as a whole. In fact, we are trying to get a piece out of his mouth that he has already cut off for himself. They are "robbed" live in front of the whole world! Now imagine - we are starting the construction of a new Strategic Missile Forces, and also a large fleet (hypothetically). Will they just look at it? They still have a lot to set fire to - the Baltic states, Georgia, Armenia, the former Central Asian, Japan, Korea, and finally China and Taiwan. These are the conditions, and in such conditions in the USSR they began to build a fleet from a person! From what you could rely on! And now, with our size and population, attitude to power?
    Now, a conscript (like a defender) to the question - "Are you going to serve?" replies - "Well, yes, it seems, it’s necessary, and then go to work there ...", then - "That is, if anything, will you go to war?", The answer is "No, what, I'm on" term", "terms" do not fight" and more - "These are" Putin's "cases, let him rake himself, there are" kotrabass "for this." The question is “And who is Putin?”, the answer is “Well, everyone knows that we have the richest, the main one!”, the question is “And also, who is in position?”, The answer is “Well, he rules everyone there, like. .." . In general, I will not talk further about the calculation of the president and the Supreme Command. This is where you will have to build, in fact, in a state of war, the threat of which no one takes seriously so far.
    1. +1
      17 June 2022 15: 08
      I absolutely agree with you, colleague. On my own behalf, I will only add that, in addition to Man, there must also be an adequate Science and Industry, capable of setting itself and solving military tasks corresponding to the needs in the shortest possible time.
  46. 0
    17 June 2022 05: 09
    The author does not consider the option of basing vertical takeoff and landing aircraft. And the appearance of these aircraft will make it possible to turn a helicopter carrier into a light aircraft carrier. Even without aircraft, a helicopter carrier can cover the KUG during a campaign. Permanent PLO. I think the author will agree that aircraft from the coast will not be able to continuously cover the KUG.
  47. -2
    17 June 2022 14: 33
    Any helicopter carrier is a target, and nothing more
    for an aircraft carrier, an armada is going to escort it - where will we get so many ships from?
    the fate of “Moscow” does not teach anything?
    1. -2
      17 June 2022 15: 09
      now I see that information has appeared on our tugboat at the Serpentine
      therefore, the aircraft carrier is only a target
  48. +1
    17 June 2022 14: 44
    Interestingly, does the author provide for the option of using unmanned aerial vehicles? Smaller and safer.
  49. +1
    17 June 2022 15: 01
    Depended on the calculation of the required number of helicopters in the organization of anti-aircraft defense. And why did the author decide that helicopters should hang 24/7 in the air? Their task is to create effective fields of hydroacoustic detection means in the appropriate directions. Further, if necessary, move to a predetermined point inaccessible to the ship's weapons systems and fill up the enemy submarines. And hanging in huge numbers in the sky - these are representations of the day before yesterday.
    PLO tasks are complex tasks that must be solved by a certain set of forces and means, and not just by helicopters or only by the MCPL. Ultimately, the success of PLO always depends on the completeness and quality of the information received and processed. And the tools for obtaining this information should not be a priori vulnerable, like a helicopter or UDC.
    1. 0
      17 June 2022 15: 31
      Quote from Alex
      And why did the author decide that helicopters should hang 24/7 in the air?

      From the fact that I am a little familiar with the features of anti-submarine warfare
      Quote from Alex
      Their task is to create effective fields of hydroacoustic detection means in the appropriate directions.

      Generally not so. A modern submarine helicopter is a whole search system in which, for example, a radar plays an important role, which, under certain conditions, can detect submarines in an underwater (yes, I didn’t make a reservation) position. Capable of also detecting a raised periscope. That is why an important feature of the upgrade of the Ka-27 to the Ka-27M is precisely the installation of a powerful AFAR. And it's not like that's all.
      Quote from Alex
      And hanging in huge numbers in the sky - these are representations of the day before yesterday.

      Nevertheless, it is not worth it so categorically, but on questions little known to you.
      Quote from Alex
      PLO tasks are complex tasks that must be solved by a certain set of forces and means, and not just by helicopters or only by the MCPL.

      Discovered America, thank you. And to think. that the article does not consider the PLO as a whole, but precisely and only its air component in the variations "helicopter or plane" - no way? Is it that hard?
      1. 0
        17 June 2022 16: 58
        Well, on the subject of "a little familiar", you definitely noticed that. A little.
        I can give you relevant military literature on the prospects and directions for the development of this topic. What you propose, UDC, is yesterday. About the radar with AFAR, generally epic. What other periscope?
        1. 0
          17 June 2022 17: 52
          Quote from Alex
          I can give you relevant military literature on the prospects and directions for the development of this topic.

          I will never turn down sources. I am writing you my mail in a personal, if you reset it, I will be very grateful.
          Quote from Alex
          What you propose, UDC, is yesterday.

          What would you suggest?
          Quote from Alex
          About the radar with AFAR, generally epic.

          Well, epic is so epic. But in general, our radars detected submarines underwater back in the 80s of the last century
          1. +1
            17 June 2022 18: 55
            What would you suggest?
            And I will offer you the magic word KGAR and all the components of rapidly deployable systems that can block threatened directions. The fact is that the PLO tasks themselves are not entirely universal. It is one thing to solve these problems near one's own shores, the second thing is to solve them when deploying strategic nuclear forces, and quite a third thing is to engage in catching "partner" SSBNs in remote areas of the world's oceans. There are also local tasks of local importance (for example, Syria). And everywhere all this will depend on many conditions. I agree with you that the catastrophic shortage of anti-submarine aviation is the scourge of our fleet. But since it happened historically, why go to extremes, make up for the ambitions of long-obsolete concepts, if you can step over "a generation" and start building a more advanced system for monitoring the underwater situation? More than the lack of aviation, in my opinion, the domestic anti-submarine forces suffer from the lack of modern resources to receive and process reliable and up-to-date information. No matter how much equipment you place on a helicopter / plane, an ocean-grade sonar reconnaissance ship will still fit more. Yes, and to the specifics of the tasks to tie it faster, due to its wider capabilities (of course, with appropriate equipment).
            1. 0
              17 June 2022 19: 20
              Quote from Alex
              And I will offer you the magic word KGAR and all the components of rapidly deployable systems that can block threatened directions

              laughing And how are you going to land landings for them? :)
              Quote from Alex
              The fact is that the PLO tasks themselves are not entirely universal.

              The fact is that you did not read the article, sorry. UDC is generally not needed for PLO purposes, but for landing, and with this it copes, in general, better than our ramps.
              Such ships really have their own niche and purpose, which they are able to realize in the best way: we are talking, of course, about the landing. But even in a global conflict, such a ship will not be completely useless - by taking on board PLO helicopters (as many as possible), it will be able to support other anti-submarine defense forces in the theater. But still, this is an auxiliary function of the UDC, with which it will cope even worse than the PLO helicopter carrier, and its main task is precisely the landing.
              Thus, I come to the conclusion that the only helicopter carrier that can really be useful to the Russian Navy is a universal landing ship. However, the tasks in which he specializes are secondary for our fleet, and building such ships at a time when the security of our strategic missile submarines is not ensured, in my opinion, is completely inappropriate.

              And KGAR ... yes, I don’t argue, it can be useful within the framework of the EGSONPO, but the Americans are curtailing them, and I would think hard about it
              1. 0
                17 June 2022 19: 44
                And how are you going to land landings for them? :)
                And where is the landing?
                I would seriously think about it
                They turned them off due to a sharp reduction in the presence of our submarines in the oceans. They partially dismantled their old SOSUS, partially leased it to civilians, and partially turned it off. He is no longer needed. NATO PLO targets now are mostly China's diesel submarines and shallow waters. Therefore, they just stopped at the development of rapidly deployable systems. That wouldn't bother us either. By type FDS-D (Fixed Distribution System) and ADS (Advanced Deployable System).
                1. +1
                  17 June 2022 20: 15
                  Quote from Alex
                  And where is the landing?

                  The fact of the matter is that so far there is nowhere special, which is why I am writing that today this is a secondary task of the fleet, and therefore it is not necessary to build UDC now laughing
                  You, without understanding, reproach me for suggesting that anti-submarine UDCs be riveted in large series :))))
                  Quote from Alex
                  They turned them off due to a sharp reduction in the presence of our submarines in the oceans.

                  Well, generally speaking, I'm not Copenhagen here. In my opinion, KGAR is a force, because such a ship, having hung around in neutral waters, can very well "write off" portraits of our nuclear submarines and not only ours, and not only nuclear submarines. But the Americans somehow pushed them aside, which is why I have a suspicion that their aviation and nuclear submarines are solving these issues. Moreover, the rapidly deployable systems of their nuclear submarines are able to accurately deploy, at least, elements of such systems.
                  Quote from Alex
                  That wouldn't bother us either.

                  Who argues ... I'm behind two claws
                  1. 0
                    17 June 2022 22: 43
                    But the Americans somehow pushed them aside, which is why I have a suspicion that their aviation and nuclear submarines are solving these issues.

                    https://topwar.ru/183579-vms-ssha-hotjat-zakupit-novye-korabli-gidroakusticheskoj-razvedki-tagos.html
                    This would be without prefaces ... I hope you are aware of the rest of the existing types.
  50. -1
    17 June 2022 16: 02
    What are the warships of the far sea zone? Look what is happening in Ukraine. Soviet technology is fighting. We already spend more money on building a fleet than on purchasing new equipment.
    Before World War 1 and the Second World War, they also tried to build a Large Fleet, but as a result, they only pulled resources away.
  51. -1
    17 June 2022 16: 21
    And at this time, a ship was sunk by a cruise missile near Zmeiny...
    With the current means of destruction, the main emphasis should be placed on means of destruction and their development - this is ultimately much more effective than building all these multi-thousand-ton iron boxes.
    After all, battleships were once masters of the seas, but aircraft carriers nullified them. Now modern missiles in the same way nullify the potential of the aircraft-carrying ships themselves.
    1. 0
      17 June 2022 17: 13
      There is finally an adequate assessment of the impact on the tug - they write that it is “brimstone”, in the amount of 2 pieces. It’s time to finish with the mastodons of the seas, at least at this level of protection against missile weapons
      1. 0
        18 June 2022 13: 38
        Tugboat - mastodon of the sea. It sounds.
  52. exo
    0
    17 June 2022 20: 14
    My opinion: pure helicopter carriers, no. And helicopters on the decks of aircraft carriers and UDCs, yes. Yes, and other ships.
  53. 0
    18 June 2022 10: 04
    And you friends, no matter how you sit down, are not fit to be musicians. The author has convincingly shown that an aircraft carrier is the optimal combat unit from a cost-effectiveness point of view. Minimum "Charles de Gaulle" maximum Ulyanovsk in terms of displacement.
  54. 0
    18 June 2022 13: 06
    You are categorical! But I still allow myself to continue the polemic))
    True, I am a completely civilian, so I can be mistaken, but the arguments have not ended yet))

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Firstly, we are talking about the strength of 3 SSBNs, and secondly, after the passage of Gibraltar, they do not need to go into any narrowness.



    And in the Strait of Gibraltar itself, can we keep a detachment of forces? Right in it.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    So there are Kuznetsov, train - I don’t want to :)))


    I meant to train in construction; )
    Kuznetsov was built by another civilization, we can only learn to swim on it))

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    In general, yes, but if you do it now, then it’s quite realistic to get 3 AB in 40 years. Which will give 1 AB for the Pacific Fleet and the Northern Fleet in the ranks and one under repair.


    And they could get 2,5 AB in 15 years; )

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And the small AB you propose cannot solve the problems of AB


    Well, why not. In calm seas, it might well be. In the same Mediterranean
    Yes, and in high latitudes, if the weather is good.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    What for? In the event of a conflict with NATO, Kuznetsov's task will be to provide air cover for the deployment of our nuclear submarines in the Norwegian - both anti-aircraft and anti-submarine "components".


    But if, in the process of deployment, the NATO forces decide to attack us, it will be difficult for Kuznetsov to defend himself from enemy aircraft and submarines at the same time.


    Regarding the "threshold of war with NATO" and escort.

    And what if there is not a hot war, and not a “threshold of war” that can be endured, but some kind of long-term cold economic war at sea? Suppose we are given crippling sanctions, making maritime transportation as difficult as possible - but without direct attacks, so as not to give a reason. And we will have to look for partners all over the world, and maybe we will find somewhere in Latin America, Africa or Southeast Asia. And there is no other way to trade with them.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Or we are on the verge of a war with NATO, and then there can be no talk of any expeditions - a small AB is not needed


    Why? Maybe an overseas expedition will turn the balance of power and turn out to be salvation. Expedition is not only "Killing Zusuls" in the colonial spirit. Perhaps there will be such a situation that we will have the opportunity to transfer a convoy with weapons to some hot spot and create an extra headache for NATO. Some kind of conditional Maduro. Or get to the western oil platforms.


    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Or we are not on the verge of war with NATO, and then, if necessary, the expedition, we can use the normal AB.



    Let's say. And if you have to act as an aircraft carrier formation? And we have only one free large avik. A connection from one and a half ships is stronger than from one))

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Finally, it is undesirable to use ersatz-AV in expeditions against someone stronger than pygmies - due to innately low combat qualities, even ordinary coastal anti-ship missiles or single attacks by strike aircraft will become a mortal danger for him.


    But I do not propose to step on the Falkland rake! Do not build _so_ ersatz. We will have full-fledged horizontal take-off carrier-based aircraft, the same as at Kuznetsovo. On media one and a half times thicker than Invisible. If you manage to stick a catapult, then even with an AWACS aircraft. Why can't they intercept single planes? It's very strange for me to read this. And to defend against anti-ship missiles by maintaining a distance beyond the limit for anti-ship missiles.

    Here we first need to discuss what kind of enemy we can, in principle, face. For an assault, a full-fledged coastal defense of c.-l. overseas country we have neither the strength nor the motives. Bombing guerrillas for years, as in Vietnam, is also, and indeed, that situation was unique. For us, the most realistic thing is to come to the aid of some ally (like Bashar al-Assad) in the war against democratic insurgents. At least he can provide us with intelligence. And if the insurgents turn out to be too strong, organize the evacuation of the allies.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Generally not needed. Not his job


    Why do you think so? It seems to me that no one has simply tried it yet - to use AB on communications.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Eugene, a ship that can fully use VTOL aircraft, was built by the British. It has a displacement of over 60 thousand tons.


    So we don’t need VTOL aircraft! Or are you saying that even a ship of this size will not be easy to sink? But this is a matter of tactics. And in general, we have rockets for such whales.

    Finally a counter question. Here is the original Izumo, which right now is already openly being converted into verticals - is he dangerous for us or not? (As part of a compound, of course, and not alone)? I think it's dangerous, and we won't be able to damage it with a lone bomber or Caliber. Why, in the opposite case, with a better than the "Japanese" ship, everything should be so bad?
  55. 0
    22 June 2022 20: 34
    In general, I agree with the author’s conclusions - coastal aviation is much better able to fight submarines off its shores. A helicopter carrier, like an aircraft carrier, is meaningless off its coast.
    But everything changes away from its shore. A PLO helicopter carrier is capable of providing anti-submarine defense for a formation of ships located in the center of the ocean or on the opposite shore.
    Of course, at the moment Russia does not have enough ships for such operations, which is why the PLO helicopter carrier also looks unnecessary. First you need to build frigates, then destroyers and/or cruisers, then aircraft carriers, and only then does the need arise for an anti-aircraft helicopter carrier, acting in the interests of its squadron.
    Let's say we have helicopters capable of patrolling at some distance from the ship (say, 100–150 km) for two hours.
    The helicopter on a helicopter carrier may not be the same as conventional carrier-based helicopters of frigates/corvettes, it may have a longer range and flight duration.
    However, for a full-fledged patrol, one helicopter is too small - due to the relatively modest payload, they should work in pairs.
    Again, the helicopter may not be called a Ka-27 and have a larger payload to operate independently.
    and who will deal with his own PLO?
    Such a large ship must have an escort; its own ASW must be handled by an escort frigate/destroyer, or rather several such ships and their deck-based ASW helicopters.
  56. 0
    26 June 2022 00: 03
    In light of recent events with the loss of the Moskva and the tugboat, the feasibility of ships approaching the shore closer than 200 km seems questionable, and this is about landing ships in the first place!
  57. 0
    20 August 2022 21: 29
    Andrey, the outfit of forces that you allocated instead of a helicopter carrier, in any fleet will cope with the task of low-powered air defense, air defense, strike missions against NK, coastal defense better than ships) If they also add long-range missile aviation, they can generally drive away the AUG. Why then the ships?

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