Goodbye Colt and Browning, hello SIG Sauer

177
We have already published Article US Special Operations Command's preference for the SIG MCX Rattler in 300 Blackout and 5,56x45mm NATO.


Now let's look at SIG's earlier successes. In general, several companies have been hiding under the SIG Sauer trademark for a long time. At the moment, the SIG structure is highly detailed and in the weapons direction includes:



1) the German company SIG Sauer GmbH&Co. kg. The company was formed in 1976 as a partnership between the Swiss Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft (SIG) and the German JP Sauer & Sohn;

2) the Swiss company SIG Sauer AG. Its predecessor SIG Arms AG was sold to L&O Holding in West Germany and first renamed SAN Swiss Arms AG, commonly known as Swiss Arms, before changing its name to SIG Sauer AG at the end of 2019;

3) the American company SIG Sauer, Inc. Its predecessor, SIGARMS, was founded in Virginia in 1985 to import and distribute firearms. weapons SIG Sauer in the USA: moved to New Hampshire in 1990. In 2007, this company was renamed SIG Sauer, Inc., and since 2000 it has been organizationally separated from SIG Sauer GmbH.

On January 19, 2017, the United States Army announced that the SIG Sauer P320 pistol version had won the Army's XM17 Modular Weapon System competition. SIG Sauer M17 and M18 - service pistols, originate from the SIG Sauer P320 and were adopted by the US Army, Navy fleet, Marine Corps, Air Force and Space Force. The full-size model was designated M17, while the shorter model was designated M18.

The M17 pistol replaces the Beretta M9 as well as several other pistols in use around the world. Available in two color options, coyote brown and black, for both the M17 and M18, although almost all were produced in brown.


SIG Sauer M17

Almost three years that have passed since the start of competitive testing of rifle complexes under the Next Generation Squad Weapon program ended with the triumph of SIG Sauer, Inc., with the SIG MCX SPEAR rifle, SIG LMG machine gun and SIG FURY Hybrid cartridge.

Let's start with the latter, since in general news about rearmament is interesting not so much by the manufacturer or weapons, but by ammunition.

Cartridge



SIG FURY Hybrid, aka .277 Fury, aka 6,8x51mm Common Cartridge, is a centerfire rifle cartridge announced in late 2019. Hybridity lies in the fact that the sleeve consists of three parts and has a brass body, a stainless steel sleeve bottom, and an aluminum lock washer connects it all. This design allows you to withstand high pressure in the chamber up to 551,6 MPa.

To compare the pressure of other calibers, obtained by the SAAMI method:

9 mm Luger - 241 MPa,
.223 Remington - 380 MPa,
7,62x39 mm - 310 MPa,
.308 Winchester - 427 MPa,
.338 Win Mag - 441 MPa.

The cartridge size is similar to that of the 7,62x51mm NATO cartridge. In fact, the .277 Fury uses a case from the .308 Winchester. Such high pressure values ​​are achieved due to the bottom of the sleeve, since stainless steel has a better elastic limit than brass. Simply put, such a sleeve is more difficult to inflate with pressure, at least it will not get stuck in the chamber and will be successfully extracted.

Bullets weighing 8,75 grams have a "match" quality and ballistic coefficient G1 is approximately equal to 0,488. By comparison, the ballistic coefficient of the .308win is approximately 0,498.

At a pressure of 551,6 MPa, a bullet weighing 8,7 grams in a barrel 406 mm long gets a speed of 914 m / s. As a result, we have an energy at the muzzle of 3 Joules, which is on average higher than that of the .634win.


Of course, not every weapon can withstand such pressure. So let's move on to the SIG MCX SPEAR rifle.

Rifle SIG MCX SPEAR


Firstly, due to the similarity of the new 6,8x51 mm and 7,62x51 mm, it is enough to change the barrel to transfer the MCX SPEAR to the old cartridge.

Secondly, all MCX SPEAR are equipped with a silencer, although it would be more accurate to call it a closed-type DTK. It is necessary and designed specifically for the .277 Fury in order to maximize the removal of powder gases in the direction of the shot, as well as hide the flash and at least slightly reduce the volume.

Goodbye Colt and Browning, hello SIG Sauer

The rest of the rifle is made on the basis of the already existing SIG MCX under 5,56 NATO. The design of the rifle is modular, the controls are similar to those on the AR-15, and are duplicated on both sides. Rifle disassembly is also similar to AR. Probably the only significant difference other than the caliber is the folding cocking handle on the left side of the rifle. The innovation does not replace the standard cocking handle for AR, but only complements it. The magazine capacity is only 20 rounds, compared to 30 for the M16 or M4. Additionally, it is reported that the M4 will continue to be used by general forces in the coming decades.


An additional cocking handle of a very unusual shape. To the right is the shutter release reset button, and below it is a duplicate magazine reset button. In general, there are no exclusively new solutions in the exterior.

Automation works on a gas outlet with an upper gas piston. The piston itself has a short stroke, and the gas block has an adjustment with two positions so that you can increase the pressure if suddenly the automation does not work out. The locking mechanism of the rotary type, the shot comes from a closed bolt. The return spring is located above the bolt group, in the upper part of the receiver. The solution is classic, and similar schemes are used on the FN SCAR, HK416, as well as on the Soviet SVD.


Particular attention should be paid to the XM157 Fire Control sighting system (Vortex Optics 1-8x30 Active Reticle Fire Control). It includes a variable magnification optical sight, a laser rangefinder, a ballistic calculator, a set of weather sensors, a compass, intercom wireless communication, a laser designator in the visible and infrared range, and a digital display in the field of view of the shooter.


Machine gun


As for the machine gun, it was made on the basis of the SIG MG-338 chambered for the powerful .338 NM cartridge, which, in turn, is based on the LWMMG-338 experimental machine gun, created by General Dynamics. This similarity is due to the fact that all these systems were developed under the guidance of the same engineer who moved from GD to SIG SAUER.


The SIG LMG uses a short-stroke gas piston with a manual gas regulator. The butterfly valve with the bolt carrier moves inside the tubular shank of the barrel. The entire receiver group, together with the gas engine and the bolt group, has the ability to roll back inside the receiver, while compressing the spring-hydraulic buffer. This is necessary in order to reduce the perceived recoil from powerful 6,8mm cartridges to an acceptable level. The barrels of the machine gun are quick-detachable, the receiver is made of aluminum alloy. Shooting is carried out from an open shutter, single shots and bursts.


The machine gun has a belt feed. Tapes are metal, loose, with an open link. Tape feed direction is from left to right. The cover of the tape feed mechanism folds to the side (to the right), while the tape can be loaded into the machine gun without tilting the lid when using special tips. Regularly, the tapes are placed in semi-rigid containers attached to the machine gun from below. Container capacity - 30, 50, 100 and 200 rounds. A container with a tape for 100 rounds weighs 3,08 kg, a standard wearable ammunition load of a machine gunner - 4 containers for 100 rounds each.


It is clarified that the decision to use an intermediate-caliber cartridge was made as a result of research and out of concerns about the improvement of body armor in Russian and possibly Chinese troops.

In general, looking at UHMWPE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene of high density), which is increasingly used in bulletproof vests and helmets, it is difficult to call such fears unnecessary.

Discussions about the advantages of intermediate cartridges in calibers between 6 and 7 mm have been going on for a long time. Experiments like 6,5 Grendel or 6,5 Creedmoor have been going on since the 2000s, and the latter turned out to be extremely interesting in general.

If such a costly and decisive step to introduce the .277 Fury pays off, then the United States will not only gain a significant advantage over competing countries, but will force them to get involved in the race. Who knows, perhaps we are witnessing the beginning of a revolution in the field of army small arms.
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177 comments
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  1. -2
    9 June 2022 04: 21
    If such a costly and decisive step to introduce the .277 Fury pays off, then the United States will not only gain a significant advantage over competing countries, but will force them to get involved in the race. Who knows, perhaps we are witnessing the beginning of a revolution in the field of army small arms.
    Who argue. A steel blade has an advantage over a stone axe, but this was decided on the battlefield. The same here. Learning this super weapon will require special knowledge and years of training - it will take pros. Special forces are piece goods ... Although the development of the Army is going in this direction.
    1. +2
      9 June 2022 09: 27
      Learning this super weapon will require special knowledge and years of training.

      Are you kidding, perhaps?
    2. 0
      9 June 2022 20: 02
      6,8x51 is just the battle ax against the blade, compared to 5,56. It hits less often, but it breaks better, more lethal.
      IMHO, it will become more difficult to train shooters.
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. +4
    9 June 2022 05: 29
    To complete the picture, it would be necessary to indicate the size of the budget for all this beauty ...
    1. -5
      10 June 2022 03: 52
      budget size

      That's for sure. You will only go bankrupt on shells. In general, can someone explain to me why on earth a brass sleeve is stronger than an all-steel one?
      High pressure! Here, after all, a breakthrough in technology! In general, the cartridge is designed, including taking into account this very pressure, which, among other factors, determines the performance characteristics of the weapon. Raising the pressure is as easy as shelling pears, and the strength of the sleeve here is not even a secondary factor, but generally a side and easily solved one.
      I also liked about bulletproof vests .... What kind of extraterrestrial technologies did they come up with in Russia and China that armor plates began to hold direct hits from rifle and intermediate cartridges? Even in case of non-penetration, the object is completely disabled with a high probability of death. A pistol bullet, and that one, severely injures.
      In short - cut the dough. There are no real advantages over existing systems. If there is no decisive advantage in reliability (and, most likely, we will have a completely opposite effect), then all this .... (obscene expression). Flag in the hands of the Americans. F-117. F-35. Now, here's the Sieg Sauer. Let them spend money on bullshit
      1. 0
        10 June 2022 15: 38
        In general, can someone explain to me why on earth a brass sleeve is stronger than an all-steel one?

        A brass sleeve is not stronger than steel. There is no such thing in the article.
        What kind of extraterrestrial technology was invented in Russia and China that the armor began to hold a direct hit from rifle and intermediate cartridges?

        Have you been in cryosleep, that such things surprise you?
        Not to mention that the problem is the powerlessness of small-caliber high-velocity cartridges that are used in personal infantry weapons against modern body armor.
        1. -3
          10 June 2022 15: 57
          A brass sleeve is not stronger than steel. There is no such thing in the article.
          Come on... !!!
          This design allows you to withstand high pressure in the chamber

          in the impotence of small-caliber high-velocity cartridges
          I suggest that the esteemed expert put on a bulletproof vest (anyone who can convey) and ask someone (only, hardly anyone who wants to sit for an idiot, maybe somewhere in Ukraine only) to shoot from 5,45 meters from three hundred.
          After that, we will discuss this issue. I'll sit next to your fence, and discuss ....
          1. +3
            10 June 2022 16: 18
            Come on... !!!

            What is "well on"? You yourself do not see that there is nothing close to the statement about stronger brass sleeves compared to steel ones.
            I suggest that the esteemed expert put on a bulletproof vest (anyone who can convey) and ask someone (only, hardly anyone who wants to sit for an idiot, maybe somewhere in Ukraine only) to shoot from 5,45 meters from three hundred.
            After that, we will discuss this issue. I'll sit next to your fence, and discuss ....

            Your level of competence is very clear.
            It will be more interesting for you to have a conversation with your classmates. Therefore - all the best.
        2. +1
          10 June 2022 16: 37
          Small-caliber cartridges do not care about modern body armor because the area of ​​​​the armor plate is 10% -12% of the growth, everything else is perfectly perforated at 500 m.
          1. 0
            10 June 2022 16: 54
            You have a kind of logic
            1. +3
              10 June 2022 17: 38
              This is a harsh reality. We look here and make sure that the plate covers very little, only the ZhVO and even then not all.
              1. 0
                10 June 2022 17: 46
                I still don't understand you. Somewhere I somehow made a hint that I confuse a bulletproof vest with a "spacesuit"?
              2. +1
                10 June 2022 17: 59
                Quote: Droid
                plate covers very little

                The plate covers just the entire core of dispersion, because we are aiming at the center of the target. Once again: here is the calculation in a graphical way - www.svateev-va.rf
              3. -3
                11 June 2022 03: 21
                I categorically assure you of the following. A bulletproof vest weighing 12 kilograms (I don’t remember the name, it was a long time ago) with a 5.45 bullet from two hundred meters does not break through (although it suffers seriously), however, a “sheep” class target wearing this vest dies 10 minutes after being hit. I don't think anything else will happen to a soldier.
                1. -2
                  11 June 2022 03: 33
                  bulletproof vest IN PRINCIPLE is not designed to protect against direct hit by bullets from rifle and intermediate cartridges. It must protect against fragments, ricochets and other low-energy damaging objects.
                  By the way, what is the percentage of death from bullets? As far as I know, the deadliest weapon is the mortar. So, in the context of the proposed article, even if this fairy tale about the child prodigy is unconditionally true, the profit received is unlikely to justify the money spent.
                  1. 0
                    11 June 2022 04: 32
                    But you won’t talk about what happened a long time ago, but will you read the passport for a bulletproof vest, for example 6B45?
                    You can see this board here.
                    1. -4
                      11 June 2022 08: 10
                      Wear it on your chest. Maybe it will save. On the barn the famous word is written
          2. +2
            10 June 2022 17: 45
            Quote: Droid
            cartridges do not care about modern body armor

            You are wrong. The ratio of hits in armor and in uncovered zones is: at a distance of 100m 4:1
            at a distance of 400m 1:1
            The full calculation is here: www.svateev-va.rf - Penetrating means of individual armor protection.
            If you do not agree, indicate the errors in the calculation "Letter to the author from your e-mail".
            1. +1
              10 June 2022 19: 53
              You are wrong specifically. Especially when you consider the probability of a single shot and in the complete absence of shooting errors. And now let's turn to Dvoryaninov volume 4, pages 40, 53. On page 40 there is a table with the characteristics of bulletproof vests, we are interested in the Zh-85T which makes its way through the 7N6M bullet from 80 m (80%), the 7N6.Br2 bullet from 250 m, and the 7N6 bullet .VK2 from 500m. The specific area of ​​​​protection of the running figure is 28%, 2 times more than that of modern BZ. Thus, the ratio of the probability of defeat between 7N6M (if the plate is not penetrated, i.e. further than 100 m) and 7N6.VK2 should be at least 1 / (1-0,28) = 1,39. (assuming the dispersion is uniform, in the first approximation)
              And now we look at the table on page 53 with the probability of hitting a running piece. We are interested in the bottom 4 lines:
              1. At 200 m, the probability of being hit by a burst of AK74 with a 7N6M bullet is 0,592, and with a 7N6.Br2 bullet - 0,854. The ratio is 1,44 times, which is absolutely true when taking into account the uneven scattering.
              2. At distances of 200-500 m, the probability of being hit by a burst of AK74 with a 7N6M bullet is 0,364, and with a 7N6.VK2 bullet - 0,532. The ratio is 1,46 times.


              Because in modern combined-arms armored vehicles, the area of ​​\u2b\u1,2bthe plate is XNUMX times less, then the difference will be approximately XNUMX times. This is compared to bullets that still pierce the armor plate, which there are serious doubts about.
              1. -2
                11 June 2022 03: 25
                I'm sorry to clarify. To disable a fighter and even cause death, breaking through a vest is not a prerequisite at all.
                1. +1
                  11 June 2022 04: 27
                  Mandatory. If the armor plate is not penetrated, there will be a maximum bruise. And then point blank.
                  1. -3
                    11 June 2022 08: 11
                    I recommend trying it for yourself.
              2. 0
                16 June 2022 14: 52
                Quote: Droid
                You are wrong specifically. Especially when you consider the probability of a single shot and in the complete absence of shooting errors.

                And did you count the queue with shooting errors? And how much did it turn out?
                TsNIITOCHMASH somehow put forward similar "claims" to me in a similar situation: they say, I calculated for the best shooters, but the average ones will not have such a benefit. I recalculated for the averages and got "everything is the same". I sent them: remove your mistake from the conclusion! Since then, they have not responded to this topic, apparently offended.
                So count yourself for the queue and with errors. If you are qualified.
                1. 0
                  17 June 2022 06: 33
                  Have you seen the probability table or boldly ignored it? Everything is written there. And believe me, I have enough qualifications, but the point is not in my qualifications, but in your ignoring inconvenient facts.
                  1. 0
                    17 June 2022 13: 15
                    Quote: Droid
                    Have you seen the probability table or boldly ignored it? Everything is written there.

                    Have you looked at your labels? Then explain to me their many inconsistencies:
                    1) Why are there no 24B7 bullet data in table 4? And in table 27 this bullet appears.
                    2) According to table 27: does the 7B4 bullet at a distance of 800-1000 m still pierce the Zh-85T ?! It cannot be, the specific energy is not enough. And if it doesn’t break through, then in what way is its probability of defeat greater. than B-32 bullets? Does 7B4 have a higher probability of hitting ?! It shouldn't be either.
                    That's when you can answer this - we will discuss who ignores the facts.
                    Quote: Droid
                    And believe me, I have enough qualifications,

                    Consider that you believe. And I'm waiting for the results of your calculations.
                    1. 0
                      17 June 2022 17: 14
                      1) Why are there no 24B7 bullet data in table 4?

                      Because they are in a different table.
                      According to table 27: does a 7B4 bullet at a distance of 800-1000 m still pierce the Zh-85T ?! It cannot be, the specific energy is not enough.

                      Yes, maybe, maybe. The range of 80% penetration of the armor plate of the 7B4 is 1055 meters.
                      That's when you can answer this - we will discuss who ignores the facts.

                      You are ignoring the facts here, starting with the initial conditions of the calculation.
                      And I'm waiting for the results of your calculations.

                      So, the submachine gunner lying down from the stop fires at the running figure (target No. 8), the distance is 400 m. Shooting is accompanied by the following errors:
                      1. Determining the range to the target 10%, which gives a vertical error of 0,18 m.
                      2. Determination of wind speed 1,5 m/s, which gives a lateral error of 0,18 m.
                      3. Guidance errors on a moving target painted in the color of the terrain 1 thousandth, i.e. 0,4 m
                      4. Scattering for the best submachine gunners from the shooting tables.
                      Probability of hitting a runner:
                      1. with 100% penetration of the armor plate, which at the same time gives us the probability of no armor at all:
                      "Probability of hitting with the first shot" 0.186
                      "Probability of hitting a burst of 3 shots" 0.335

                      2. Probability with 100% non-penetration of the armor plate (height 0,314 m, width 0,265 m, area 0,0756 m. STP in the center of the plate).
                      To do this, we calculate the probability of hitting the slab itself:
                      "Probability of hitting with the first shot" 0.026
                      "Probability of hitting the queue" 0.06.
                      And now we subtract the probability of hitting the slab from the probability of hitting the running one:
                      Probability of being hit by the first shot: p=0.186-0.026=0,16 (ratio 0,186/0,16=1,16)
                      Probability of being hit by a burst: p=0.335-0.06=0,275 (ratio 0..335/0.275=1,22).

                      PS. The calculation was carried out numerically by the Monte Carlo method using the reduced target rectangles. A million virtual queues gives sufficient accuracy of 3 decimal places.
                      1. -1
                        17 June 2022 17: 59
                        Yes, maybe, maybe. The range of 80% penetration of the armor plate of the 7B4 is 1055 meters.

                        6,5 mm titanium from a distance of more than a kilometer? Did you or your interlocutor confuse anything? For example, bulletproof Zh-85T with anti-fragmentation Zh-81, which has a plate thickness of 1,5 mm?
                      2. +2
                        18 June 2022 07: 36
                        No, they didn’t mess it up, it is precisely such data that is given by Dvoryaninov.
                        Here we need to delve into the design of the 7B4 cartridge. Its core is made of VK8 hard alloy, and not U12A steel as in B-32, the maximum core diameter is 1,116 times smaller (5,5 mm versus 6,14), and the area is 1,246 times smaller, respectively. At the same time, the mass of the core is 1,32 times greater (7,1 g versus 5,38 g). The total specific energy of the core is 1,64 times greater (at the same speed at the target).
              3. 0
                16 June 2022 15: 09
                Quote: Droid
                we are interested in Zh-85T

                Here, wear it yourself.
                And the standard armor panel in the "Warrior" is corundum SK-60K, which is shown in my study www.svateev-va.rf - Penetrating individual armor protection.
                And there is also a scan of table 36 "Range of 80% penetration of barriers" of the same Dvoryaninov, where an automatic armor-piercing bullet pierced the armor of the then IV class no further than 25m.
                "Since then, the SIS have improved and now the Russian regular" corundum "(aluminum oxide) armor panel SK-60K bullets 7N13 and B-32 do not pierce at all, even from 10m - Fig. 2. Therefore, it will not pierce even 7N24, and 7B4 will not pierce further 310m - Calculation. The SK-60K weighs only 3,5kg - [12]."
                www.svateev-va.rf/sib.html
                1. +1
                  17 June 2022 06: 42
                  And the regular armored panel in the "Warrior" is corundum SK-60K,

                  Which is exactly 2 times smaller in area than the armored panel of the Zh-85T and does not need to be pierced.
                  Or does the corundum armored panel attract all the bullets to itself like a magnet so that not a single one will fly past it? Have you even read my commentary where the probability of defeat is directly given when the armored panel is penetrated and without it, and their ratio?
                  1. 0
                    17 June 2022 13: 44
                    Quote: Droid
                    Which is exactly 2 times smaller in area than the armored panel of the Zh-85T

                    Really? Can you prove?
                    I show that the SK-60K is a regular size, covering the chest:
                    [media=http://www.svateev-va.rf/sib.html]
                    It's a pity, for some reason it does not reproduce here from my site. Follow the link, there is a photo with at least 8 hits on the SK-60K.
                    1. 0
                      17 June 2022 17: 21
                      You don't have to show anything. You just have to bring in the numbers. Area 2 armor plate sizes, i.e. medium, 7,56 sq dm, while the Zh-85T has 15,6 sq. dm.
            2. IVZ
              0
              12 June 2022 16: 39
              Quote: Svateev
              If you do not agree, indicate the errors in the calculation
              Yes, you have no errors in the calculation. An error in the task conditions. The target is not a stationary growth target that can be safely aimed from the "lying down" position in good weather with excellent visibility. Actual shooting conditions may be very different.
              1. +1
                14 June 2022 09: 11
                The target is not a stationary growth target that can be safely aimed from the "lying down" position in good weather with excellent visibility. Actual shooting conditions may be very different.

                The law of normal distribution still applies.
                If the conditions are different from the greenhouse, then all the more shooting is not aimed at, but at the center of mass.
              2. 0
                16 June 2022 15: 17
                Quote: IVZ
                Actual shooting conditions may be very different.

                And how will shooting errors affect the ratio of the probabilities of hitting armor and uncovered areas?
                If we don’t hit the target at all, it really doesn’t matter what kind of armor there is and what kind of bullet we shoot. Is that what you want to say?
                1. IVZ
                  0
                  17 June 2022 00: 03
                  Quote: Svateev
                  If we don’t hit the target at all, it really doesn’t matter what kind of armor there is and what kind of bullet we shoot. Is that what you want to say?

                  No. In battle, most often, a fighter either moves in short dashes, or crawls, or is in a prone position or in cover, presenting himself at best as a chest target and in the "foreground" of this target are hands with weapons. Therefore, according to statistics, most of the hits fall on the limbs, head and neck. Which does not cancel the requirements for the balance of ammunition qualities - "hit, pierce, kill."
                  1. 0
                    17 June 2022 13: 53
                    Quote: IVZ
                    according to statistics, most of the hits occur on the limbs, head and neck.

                    It looks like you don't mean hit stats, but wound stats. So after all, there are more wounds in the limbs because the chest is covered with a bulletproof vest, which does not break through.
                    Quote: IVZ
                    Which does not cancel the requirements for the balance of ammunition qualities - "hit, pierce, kill."

                    Exactly.
                2. +1
                  17 June 2022 06: 44
                  And how will shooting errors affect the ratio of the probabilities of hitting armor and uncovered areas?

                  My comment says how. And the table of probabilities is given and the ratios are calculated, but the only thing that you saw from the commentary was the bulletproof vest model, you simply ignored everything else.
                  1. 0
                    17 June 2022 13: 56
                    Quote: Droid
                    My comment says how.

                    No, it's not written. Or quote yourself where it is, I didn't find it.
                    Quote: Droid
                    And the table of probabilities is given and the ratios are calculated,

                    For inconsistencies in these plates, the questions are higher. Reply.
      2. 0
        18 August 2022 19: 39
        In general, can someone explain to me why on earth a brass sleeve is stronger than an all-steel one?

        Not stronger, but more elastic, with less permanent deformation. It compresses faster and fuller after being blown up by a shot and does not bully in the chamber. Resp. it is more reliably removed and does not tear, reducing misfires.
    2. 0
      12 June 2022 23: 33
      budget size

      I don’t think that someone will say to the Pentagon "there is no money, but you hold on" ...
      the pentagon is not so much the "security" of the country as a cool customer ...
      and the "merchants of death" always know how to put pressure on the "government", given that they are also made up of them ... :)
      and they do not need to take the loot offshore ...
  4. +1
    9 June 2022 06: 44
    And what about ours in this segment? Ak-74?
    1. -2
      9 June 2022 08: 18
      Quote: FoBoss_V
      And what about ours in this segment? Ak-74?

      AS "Val"
      Automatic Special "Val" chambered for 9 × 39 mm
      1. 0
        9 June 2022 08: 56
        Good morning Michael. smile

        And with this, what to do, the unit already gives off something cosmic.


        We don't seem to have anything like that, do we?
        1. 0
          9 June 2022 10: 41
          Quote: Sea Cat
          NEW

          0
          Good morning Michael

          hi
          Quote: Sea Cat
          We don't seem to have anything like that, do we?

          There is an opinion that for specialists they supply everything that they wish.
          At least APS, at least Glock, AR-50 or a slingshot with cool optics.
          I am a purely civilian person, and it is difficult for me to judge and decide for our fighters.

          An Eastern proverb says:
          - A sword in the hands of a coward is useless.
          That is, a worthy warrior should own this space complex.
          Otherwise ...

          I remember that a lot of copies were broken at VO on the topic of the real use of even planks, and the entire tactical body kit.
          Extreme conditions, dirt, frost, lack of qualified service, shocks...

          Cardin could have answered more authoritatively: he is a specialist.
          By the way, I posted a photo from his personal archive.
          1. 0
            9 June 2022 11: 20
            Cardin? And where is the photo?
            1. +1
              9 June 2022 14: 05
              Quote: Sea Cat
              where is the photo

              AS "Val" above
              1. 0
                9 June 2022 14: 18
                And I thought about another Cardin, sorry. request And what kind of weapon Karden and what is interesting about him, I hear about him for the first time from you. I looked through now, a lot of photos and no text, though the photos are of high quality.
                1. 0
                  9 June 2022 18: 46
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Cardin and what is interesting about him, I hear about him for the first time from you

                  In my series of articles about COP 23 there is a photo of him.
                  Have you read?
                  1. 0
                    9 June 2022 19: 05
                    I don't remember something. request
                    1. 0
                      9 June 2022 19: 18
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      I don't remember something

                      Look in my profile.
                      I'm on my way, it's hard
                      1. +1
                        9 June 2022 19: 30
                        I'll look, no problem.)))
        2. 0
          9 June 2022 12: 40
          they did it for show, supposedly beautiful (marketing).
          In real life there will be ordinary practical colors.
          1. 0
            9 June 2022 12: 46
            I didn't mean color, but functionality.
        3. 0
          9 June 2022 18: 37
          https://www.lobaevarms.ru/products/DXL-5-HAVOC/
          1. 0
            9 June 2022 18: 44
            So what? This is a sniper rifle, i.e. a completely different type of weapon, it is ridiculous to compare them.
            1. 0
              9 June 2022 18: 58
              I’m even already lost ...... The one who is friends with the SVD is not a sniper, but some kind of Marxman .... since the caliber and stuff are garbage .... now these are not the same .... So who then ?!
              1. +1
                9 June 2022 19: 04
                Even I'm lost...


                It's not worth it, in this life everything is relative. Terminology too. wink
                1. 0
                  10 June 2022 13: 45
                  When in the hands of the SVD - it does not happen relatively.
                2. 0
                  10 June 2022 14: 47
                  Nevertheless - who did not hide, I am not "guilty".
                  1. +1
                    10 June 2022 15: 39
                    Ready or not, here I come".
                    laughing

                    1. +1
                      10 June 2022 15: 45
                      About! But, there was a more serious look. wink
                      1. 0
                        10 June 2022 15: 55
                        Then something like this. smile
                      2. +1
                        10 June 2022 16: 11
                        Once I answer you ........ I was very careful and attentive. wassat
                      3. +2
                        10 June 2022 16: 19
                        was very careful and considerate.

                        It won't hurt our business. wink
                      4. 0
                        10 June 2022 16: 41
                        I don’t pretend to be holy ...... it was a sin, at the level of extreme tourism. fellow
                      5. 0
                        10 June 2022 16: 56
                        Similarly, at one time in Sevastopol, diving without "Agdam" was contraindicated by the doctor. Alcohol (awl) is, of course, more capable, how can I get it! smile drinks
              2. +4
                10 June 2022 09: 20
                Nothing complicated. In Western armies, they share a sniper pair - this is a bolt rifle of a serious caliber and the second number of the calculation - and maxman - simply the best shooter in the platoon, who was given optics and preferably match cartridges. In the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, a fighter with SVD is in this place, and consider there are no snipers of the first type - Putin has everything in the guards and similar cabals "for his own." Sometimes they come together and shoot at pieces of paper from two kilometers away. CSKA vs Dynamo, so to speak.
                1. 0
                  10 June 2022 13: 47
                  You are a man of humor! Thanks for the answer!
        4. 0
          10 June 2022 17: 53
          Quote: Sea Cat
          We don't seem to have anything like that, do we?

          TsNIITOCHMASH is developing a similar one, Shoigu was shown a kind of "designer from separate blocks" to Shoigu. As always, they blindly repeat Western innovations without taking into account their fatal shortcomings.
          The laser rangefinder warns the enemy about aiming at it. The enemy has time to take cover.
        5. 0
          7 November 2022 17: 43
          xm157 from vortex, a good thing, as for me)))
      2. +8
        9 June 2022 09: 49
        Val is not even close to the same. With a subsonic bullet, this is actually a submachine gun.
        1. +1
          9 June 2022 14: 08
          Quote: Negro
          Val is not even close to the same.

          Where can the SIG FURY Hybrid cartridge be effective?
          And at what distances?
          1. +2
            9 June 2022 14: 48
            From 400+ meters based on the effective range of the personal weapon of a potential enemy infantryman. And up to 800, taking into account the capabilities of the cartridge and optics.
            1. -1
              9 June 2022 15: 48
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              From 400+ meters based on the effective range of the personal weapon of a potential enemy infantryman

              These weapons are not infantrymen, but MTRs, at least in the coming years. So these 400 meters as a normal range for an open sight assault rifle are not entirely relevant here.
              1. 0
                9 June 2022 16: 01
                This weapon is not infantry, but MTR

                Who cares? The MTR will shoot (if necessary) the enemy with something from the AK family in their hands.
                1. 0
                  9 June 2022 16: 10
                  With Pecheneg.
                  1. -2
                    9 June 2022 16: 20
                    Which one per platoon and with open sights? I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
                    1. +1
                      9 June 2022 16: 31
                      Sretsura is fighting not with the regulars, but with the Khattabychs or, to put it bluntly, with the orchestra players. They can drag Utes there too, people are not lazy. Of course, no miracle cartridge will save you from a mortar, but they wanted to at least close the shooter by 99%.
                      1. 0
                        9 June 2022 16: 39
                        You expand the introductory))
                        In Ukraine, our special forces are now cleaning Sherwood from regulars. True, there is no need for weapons 400+, what to hide.
                        But in general, the fact that they have matured to replace 2 calibers with one that overlaps our rifle caliber is very unpleasant.
                      2. 0
                        10 June 2022 04: 05
                        before replacing 2 calibers with one

                        It has long been known that everything universal is worse than special. If they switch to one cartridge, they will get something "neither yours nor ours." And most likely, you will have to use three calibers. That's all the savings
                      3. -2
                        10 June 2022 09: 46
                        If they switch to one cartridge, they will get something "neither yours nor ours." And most likely, you will have to use three calibers. That's all the savings

                        After all, I didn’t write that they would switch to one cartridge, I wrote that with one cartridge, in the future, 10 (even 2) cartridges would be replaced in 3 years. Considering that the US Armed Forces are already using it (not counting all sorts of 9 mm and 12 gauge) - the main 5,56x45, 7,62x51, 7.62x67 and 12,7x99 and the auxiliary 8,6x64, 8,6x70, 10.3x77, then leave out of the whole hodgepodge 6,8x51 and 8,6x70 - all the same, saving
                      4. +1
                        10 June 2022 11: 44
                        Nothing will be reduced. Just one more to add. Bo is not able to replace anything that is available
                      5. -1
                        10 June 2022 11: 51
                        Bo is not able to replace anything that is available

                        Can you even justify?
                      6. 0
                        10 June 2022 12: 01
                        Practice will show. I'm not a soothsayer, but that's the way it will be
                      7. 0
                        10 June 2022 12: 05
                        But seriously, it has no advantages over the existing ones, actively absorbing their shortcomings - strong recoil like that of 7,62 and a less massive bullet. About the cost, as they say, it's a completely different story.
                      8. -1
                        10 June 2022 06: 48
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        But in general, the fact that they have matured to replace 2 calibers with one that overlaps our rifle caliber is very unpleasant.

                        Unpleasant. The replacement was due to several reasons.
                        In Afghanistan, 5,56 did not prove to be very successful.
                        The US has long had a desire to give its infantry an advantage in effective range.
                        Body armor has improved.
                        PMSM, it will still be 2 caliber. 6,8x51 and 338. Norma Magnum.
            2. 0
              9 June 2022 18: 51
              Quote: Nefarious skeptic
              From 400+ meters based on...

              ...Special operations in Ukraine
              For storming the Azovstal plant, or fighting in urban areas, for example.
              Is the new cartridge universal?
              1. +3
                9 June 2022 19: 05
                There are no universal weapons and universal cartridges.
                Both the assaults on factories and the battles in urban conditions are not tied to a cartridge. And on what tactics you consider the most effective, taking into account the logistics at your disposal.
                1. +1
                  9 June 2022 19: 29
                  Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                  There are no universal weapons and universal cartridges

                  I agree.
                  Usually choose the best option, the golden mean.

                  For example, reliability at a reasonable price, at the expense of accuracy.
                  Right?

                  Cartridges 6,5 Grendel or 6,5 Creedmoor were not developed yesterday, but they did not become massive.
                  Not a single army in the world has completely switched to them.
                  Or I'm wrong?

                  Same with .277 Fury
                  They will conquer their small niche, but no more.
                  You can’t buy match cartridges for everyone, you will have to be content with gross ones.
                  Any objections?
                  1. +1
                    10 June 2022 09: 35
                    1) The answer to the first two points can be described in detail, or you can fit it into one saying - stretch your legs according to your clothes. An army is an expensive pleasure, and an effective army is fabulously expensive.
                    2) But you can’t buy match cartridges ... their gross is our match cartridges.
                    1. 0
                      10 June 2022 18: 41
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      An army is an expensive pleasure, and an effective army is fabulously expensive.

                      I agree,
                      therefore, the samples of weapons and ammunition mentioned in the article are not purchased for the entire US Army,
                      but only for special forces.
                      SOCOM has about 60 servicemen of various branches of service under its control.
                      It is unlikely that each of them needs the latest rifle with a cool body kit, or a machine gun for hybrid cartridges.

                      Remember the revolutionary Stoner 63 chambered for the latest 5.56x45mm cartridge?
                      It was run in Vietnam, and finalized.
                      As a result, several thousand copies were released.
                      He was in service with the US Navy special forces soldiers (fur seals).
                      And all love.

                      By the way, FN SCAR is also not produced for the rearmament of the entire army.
                      SCAR (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) - for special operations forces.
                      That is, production in limited batches was initially laid down.
                      1. 0
                        11 June 2022 10: 09
                        I agree,
                        therefore, the samples of weapons and ammunition mentioned in the article are not purchased for the entire US Army,
                        but only for special forces.

                        Let's wait and see what's going on here. But the tender for the project to convert a single US Army M240 machine gun under 6,8x51 was won back a month ago.
                        Remember the revolutionary Stoner 63 chambered for the latest 5.56x45mm cartridge?
                        It was run in Vietnam, and finalized.
                        As a result, several thousand copies were released.
                        He was in service with the US Navy special forces soldiers (fur seals).
                        And all love.

                        And the 5,56x45 cartridge remained, you remember that we are talking about switching to a new cartridge))
                        By the way, FN SCAR

                        is indicative, within the framework of our conversation, in terms of abandoning version L.
                      2. 0
                        11 June 2022 11: 43
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        But the tender for the conversion project of a single machine gun

                        I myself participated for several years in tenders, though civilian ones.
                        Winning a tender does not mean selling.
                        How many tenders were canceled after they were held...
                        They could not help but spend, and there was no money in the budget.

                        You're right
                        Wait and see.
                      3. 0
                        11 June 2022 11: 46
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        And the 5,56x45 cartridge remained, you remember

                        Of course I remember.
                        And problems with the cartridge, and with the Stoner modular complex.
                        After all, a cartridge was developed for it.
                        I published a series about the Stoner family.
                        Have you read?
                    2. 0
                      10 June 2022 19: 52
                      Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                      Well, you can’t buy match cartridges ... their gross is our match cartridges.

                      I'm talking about cartridges from this article


                      4 dollars a piece, however.


                      5.56 ammo from Black Hills Ammunition is 2 times cheaper.
                      The company is a supplier to the US Army and Marine Corps.
                      1. 0
                        10 June 2022 20: 55
                        Quote: Mister X
                        4 dollars a piece, however.

                        OK, let's count. Let's say the consumption of cartridges is 500 boxes per year. The Second World War MTR will not be repeated, we lay one box a day for training and, on the strength of 28 days a year, work 5 boxes a day - for special forces these are completely extreme numbers. It's $40K a year. 60 thousand fighters, half of them have rifles, $ 1.2 billion. Is this a lot for the USA?
                      2. 0
                        10 June 2022 21: 34
                        Quote: Negro
                        OK, let's count.

                        To do this, you need to find and check the data on the fire training of US special forces.

                        I didn’t study the topic, but I found information about the training program for an employee of a private military company.
                        The course "Shooting training" takes place over 5 days.
                        Each of them will fire 3500 shots from a 9-mm weapon (pistol) and 1500 shots from a 5,56-mm weapon (automatic rifle) in five days.

                        I myself am curious how many rounds the special forces actually shoot.
                        Find - share.

                        I will add that you need to take into account the costs and problems associated with logistics and maintenance.
                        And it needs to be done all over the world.
                      3. 0
                        10 June 2022 21: 48
                        Quote: Negro
                        $1.2 billion. Is that a lot for the US?

                        In 2021, the US military budget was $801 billion.
                        1,4% less than in 2020.
                        Just postponed for cartridges from SIG wink

                        Biden signed the US defense budget for 2022 in the amount of $768 billion.
                        33 billion less than in 2021.
                        So consider: is $1.2 billion a lot for the USA?
                      4. -2
                        10 June 2022 21: 59
                        Quote: Mister X
                        In 2021, the US military budget was $801 billion.

                        In accordance with the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021 (NDAA), a total of $2021 billion is allocated for US defense.

                        The base budget of the US military is $635,5 billion, another $69 billion for emergency operations abroad and $26,6 billion for homeland security programs within the US Department of Energy.
                        .

                        Quote: Mister X
                        1,4% less than in 2020.

                        US President Donald Trump signed into law on Friday night, December 20, the 2020 US Defense Budget Act (NDAA), which was previously approved in both houses of Congress with strong bipartisan support. The law, which determines the expenditure of the Department of Defense and establishes the country's defense policy for the next year, received the support of 86 senators and 377 members of the House of Representatives. The US defense budget for 2020 increased by 20% compared to last year, reaching $ 738 billion.
                      5. 0
                        10 June 2022 22: 05
                        Quote: Liam
                        The US defense budget for 2020 increased by 20% compared to last year, reaching $738 billion.

                        Then they will definitely fork out for hybrid cartridges laughing
                      6. +2
                        10 June 2022 23: 02
                        Quote: Mister X
                        I will add that you need to take into account the costs and problems associated with logistics and maintenance.
                        And it needs to be done all over the world.

                        Quote: Mister X
                        So consider: is $1.2 billion a lot for the USA?

                        There is an easier way. We go to the zig site where you were, select "practical"
                        https://www.sigsauer.com/ammunition/practice.html
                        We see there "match" .277 for 34 bucks and .308 for 26. That is, the question under discussion means + 30% to the costs. At the same time, now .277 is a cartridge for enthusiasts, and cartridge cases with bullets are bored on a lathe from the time of Hitler by the last Swiss turner of the highest category between drinking binges, and upon receipt of an order for the first billion cartridges, shaitan robots will stand there and sharpen these stubborn cartridge cases with completely different costs .

                        I think the question of price on this can be closed.
                      7. 0
                        12 June 2022 11: 02
                        Quote: Negro
                        We see there "match" .277 for 34 bucks and .308 for 26.

                        It is also an option.
                        After all, they use "small" cartridges for training.
                        Muscle memory and arrow skills will definitely improve.
                        But the hybrid cartridge has a different ballistics, recoil too.
                        Bullets will fly towards the target, but where will they hit?

                        Quote: Negro
                        Satanic robots will stand there and sharpen these stubborn shells at completely different costs.

                        They should restart the production of Stingers and Javelins to replenish their own stocks ...
                        I understand that manufacturers are different.
                        But the military budget is the same, and priorities may change.
                      8. +3
                        12 June 2022 12: 45
                        Quote: Mister X
                        Muscle memory and arrow skills will definitely improve.
                        But the hybrid cartridge has a different ballistics, recoil too.
                        Bullets will fly towards the target, but where will they hit?

                        And who told you that these trunks will be sealed until June 22? Basic training, the first 10 thousand rounds of commercials, all normal people go through 22LR, or even pneumatic. I learned to stand - to breathe - to hold a weapon - to press the trigger and then mastering at least .338 goes differently. If people learn to shoot immediately from a Kalash, 6 rounds for six months of service, then this is not study, but profanity. It seems that all of the above is not a secret to anyone.
                        Quote: Mister X
                        I understand that manufacturers are different.
                        But the military budget is the same, and priorities may change.

                        Another strange argument. They don’t need a billion rounds of ammunition by next Monday, and I have no doubts about the ability of a country with 300 million barrels to produce cartridges.
          2. +1
            9 June 2022 15: 45
            They write that the range of supersonic loss is about a kilometer. Considering the dances with a scope, the task statement is quite clear - to shoot at range any standard small arms, except for large-caliber ones.
            1. 0
              10 June 2022 04: 13
              It will not be better in range than 5,56 or 5,45. Heavy bullet + high speed = an increase in the mass of the weapon or a strong decrease in reliability. Nothing is free.
              And who are you going to shoot at range? It seems to me that the dead end of combined arms rifles with a range of 2000 m became clear 80 years ago
              1. +3
                10 June 2022 08: 58
                Quote: Bobik012
                combined arms rifles with a range of 2000 m

                Rifles with this range are found mainly in the works of the writer Louis Boussenard. This refers to firing small arms in volleys from closed positions at a cavalry regiment.

                Now similar ideas revolve around shooting at 1000 yards. This is another American folk pastime, and many people in the SSO know, love, and practice this.

                As for the dead end, each vegetable has its time. The correct solution for conscripts and open sights is not necessarily correct for special forces with this monster on the receiver.
                Quote: Bobik012
                Nothing is free.

                The price was actually the refusal to fire in long bursts. But it's been that way for many years. A well-shooting soldier should not throw out the horn at once.
                1. -1
                  10 June 2022 11: 55
                  found mainly in the writer Louis Boussenard

                  Three-ruler, Mauser k-98, Lee-Enfield, Springfield ... Further list? Very often met not only among writers. They showed their own ... No, of course, not failure ... In general, a range of more than 400 meters turned out to be unnecessary. Since that time, the capabilities of the shooter in combat, to which this range limit is limited, have not changed much, a new biological species has not been brought out.
                  A well-shooting soldier should not throw out the horn at once

                  Enlighten me, how many times have you been in battle under fire, mister well-shooting soldier? I assume you don't have that experience. Otherwise, they would not have carried such nonsense about the firing range and the speed of emptying the store
                  1. +3
                    10 June 2022 12: 09
                    Quote: Bobik012
                    Three-ruler, Mauser k-98, Lee-Enfield, Springfield ...

                    Yes, that's it. This is a non-targeted range, now they have tied up with such calculations.
                    Quote: Bobik012
                    a range of more than 400 meters turned out to be unnecessary

                    A range of more than 400 meters was covered by other means.
                    Quote: Bobik012
                    the capabilities of the shooter in battle, to which this range limit is limited, have not changed much, a new biological species has not been brought out.

                    But the sights have fundamentally changed, as have the standards for training an infantryman.
                    Quote: Bobik012
                    how many times have you been in battle under fire, mister well-shooting soldier? I assume you don't have that experience.

                    When the couch expert who teaches the American special forces to shoot, went with trump cards.
              2. 0
                17 June 2022 12: 57
                There is also the question of barrel survivability. In full growth)). I will assume that the resource will not exceed 3-4 thousand shots.
        2. 0
          9 June 2022 18: 48
          Quote: Negro
          it's actually a submachine gun

          The SMG uses pistol ammo, as opposed to an assault rifle/assault rifle.
          Right?
          1. +1
            9 June 2022 19: 09
            Yes, that's right. The 9x39 cartridge is a pistol cartridge in terms of ballistics - at the level of the P ++ versions of 9x19 (reinforced cartridges for submachine guns), noticeably weaker than any 10mm auto.
            1. 0
              9 June 2022 19: 32
              Quote: Negro
              Cartridge 9x39 and there is a pistol ballistics

              What official documents state this?
              1. 0
                9 June 2022 19: 37
                Yes, I somehow do not care about official documents. I'm looking at ballistics, meters-joules. In fact, that's exactly what he wrote.
                1. 0
                  9 June 2022 20: 03
                  Quote: Negro
                  I look at ballistics, meters-joules

                  That is your personal opinion, nothing more.

                  What type of weapon do you attribute the Wildey product to?

                  Cartridge .475 Wildey Magnum / 12x30mm,
                  Automation with the removal of part of the gases from the barrel,
                  Gas outlet mechanism with automatic gas regulator,
                  ring piston,
                  The initial speed of the bullet ranges from 490-560 m / s,
                  and the energy of the bullet is 2300-2600 J

                  What type of weapon is this?

                  1. +2
                    9 June 2022 20: 49
                    Quote: Mister X
                    What type of weapon is this?

                    Souvenir. By the way, not the most stoned yet - I heard about the "pistol" at 12,7x99.

                    What are we discussing? Do you want to consider a cartridge with an energy less than a kilojoule as an intermediate one? Count on health.
                    1. 0
                      9 June 2022 21: 26
                      Quote: Negro
                      I heard about the "pistol" at 12,7x99.

                      But Wildey has been mass-produced for 30+ years.

                      Quote: Negro
                      Do you want to count

                      I want to know why you consider a rifle cartridge to be a pistol cartridge?
                      I wonder if the term "sniper pistol cartridge" exists?
                      7Н12

                      1. +3
                        10 June 2022 08: 36
                        What are you suffocating? Would you like to discuss the American folk pastime, bear hunting with horn short barrel? I won’t help here, I’m not interested in these safaris. Do you want to refute my argument about joule meters? Where did you go to the bears then? The .22LR has a lot less joules than the 9x19, but it's a rifle cartridge.

                        I believe that Val is an analogue of .45 PP with a silencer. Do you think this is an analogue of the Maksman rifle? Please, it's your right.
                2. 0
                  10 June 2022 04: 14
                  meters-joules

                  yes, yes, especially joules :-)
      3. +3
        9 June 2022 16: 38
        Are you seriously? A shaft with a subsonic cartridge with an initial speed of 290 m/s and a 6,8 mm one with an initial speed of 914 m/s in one segment?
      4. +1
        9 June 2022 21: 02
        Quote: Mister X
        AS "Val"

        Not a very fair comparison. Still, 9x39 mm is a special "subsonic" cartridge with very different energy and ballistics, designed for completely different distances and tasks. And of course, all this was reflected in the development of "Val".

        And the Americans actually returned to the concept of an automatic rifle. Unless the recoil momentum was slightly reduced when compared with 7,62 × 51 mm. Well, such a sophisticated body kit is more in line with this particular concept, and not with an automatic machine.
        1. -1
          9 June 2022 21: 50
          Quote: Droid
          Shaft with subsonic cartridge

          Quote: Zaits
          9x39 mm - special "subsonic" cartridge

          Both the cartridge 6,8x51 and 9x39 are special purpose cartridges.
          Yes, they have different characteristics, but both are in service with the "specialists".
          1. +2
            9 June 2022 22: 14
            Specialists for that and specialists that can specialize in different tasks. Sometimes very different. And for each task, a different tool is used. Otherwise, you will have to dump everything that the specialists use.

            Well, in this case, it’s not so much the return to the old concept of weapons that is interesting, but the concept of using it, taking into account all these technical means, densely packed together with the sight. There is no feeling that this is a completely piece goods. So, all this electronics is now much cheaper.
  5. +3
    9 June 2022 06: 54
    Back in 1913, the ingenious gunsmith V.G. Fedorov proposed a 6.5 mm caliber cartridge for individual automatic weapons. Unfortunately, this was not understood and accepted at the time. More than 100 years have passed since then. But all the same, the whole shooter winds around this caliber. Unfortunately, in the late 60s and early 70s of the 20th century, Soviet generals turned on their ears instead of brains and switched not to the Fedorov caliber, but to the American 5.45 / 5.56, which did not justify itself either in the American or in the Soviet / Russian armies. Since then, the search for a "kind of new" caliber has been underway, because. the transition to it will require another huge cost to replace almost all weapons. No one wants to sit down in a puddle again.
    1. +7
      9 June 2022 08: 24
      The ingenious gunsmith Fedorov took the weakest of the modern mass rifle cartridges - 6,5 Arisaka in order to maintain at least some controllability of manual automatic weapons with an acceptable weight. At 7,62x54 this is almost impossible. He simply did not have high-velocity .22 caliber cartridges. And even if there were, the load of such a cartridge on the barrel for WWII army weapons is unacceptable.

      The choice of a cartridge for the weapons of the American MTR in 2022 is infinitely far from Fedorov's considerations. They built something fundamentally different: .277 is much tougher than any rifle cartridge from the time of Fedorov.
      1. +4
        9 June 2022 09: 11
        The ingenious gunsmith Fedorov took the weakest of the modern mass rifle cartridges - 6,5 Arisaka in order to maintain at least some controllability of manual automatic weapons with an acceptable weight.

        Before you write anything, you need to read at least something.
        Vladimir Grigoryevich Fedorov graduated from the Mikhailovskaya Artillery Academy in 1900 and almost immediately was appointed to serve in the GAU Artillery Committee. The young design engineer worked hard to study the peculiarities of using new ammunition from different countries. During the development and adoption of the upgraded 7,62x54 mm cartridge with a light bullet, the young designer presented own concept of a new 6,5 mm rifle ammunition. The new cartridge of reduced power was distinguished by a promising design and should have been ideal for firing automatic weapons. It was the experience of the Russo-Japanese War and the use of the 6,5x50 mm cartridge by the Japanese that inspired Fedorov to create ammunition of this caliber.
        (VO, https://topwar.ru/159207-65-mm-patron-fedorova.html)

        At least in VO, and even better with D.N. Bolotin.
        Well, American advertising
        They built something fundamentally different: .277 is much tougher than any rifle cartridge from the time of Fedorov.

        I won't even comment.
        1. -1
          9 June 2022 09: 31
          Quote: Negro
          Fedorov took the weakest of the modern mass rifle cartridges - 6,5 Arisaka in order to maintain at least some controllability of manual automatic weapons with an acceptable weight.

          Quote: Nafanya from the couch
          It was the experience of the Russo-Japanese War and the use of the 6,5x50 mm cartridge by the Japanese that inspired Fedorov to create ammunition of this caliber.

          Thank you for backing up my position with a quote, it somehow didn't occur to me. I also note that just the existing mass cartridge, albeit a foreign one, is always a plus for a gunsmith. Just all this talk about a designer Russian cartridge is not good for Fedorov's memory.
          Quote: Nafanya from the couch
          I won't even comment.

          What is there to comment on? The cartridge is brutal, the indicators of speed, flatness, kinetic energy are exceptional, what the Americans did there with an eye is scary and we will see how this wunderwaffe will work in real conditions. But they gave birth to him for a long time, without the usual American "workers' gift for the decisive 148th Congress of the Democratic Party." It might work this time.
          1. +1
            9 June 2022 13: 58
            Quote: Negro
            The cartridge is brutal, the indicators of speed, flatness, kinetic energy are exceptional, what the Americans did there with an eye is scary and we will see how this wunderwaffe will work in real conditions.

            If we consider an increase in performance by 10 ... 25% compared to 7,62x51 NATO as a landmark achievement, then yes! cartridge "brutal". There remains, however, the small question of comparative cost with .308 and how quickly a match cartridge wears out the barrel of a weapon. Especially in automatic shooting mode.
            1. +1
              9 June 2022 14: 57
              and how quickly a match cartridge wears out the barrel of a weapon

              Less gross))
              If we consider an increase in performance by 10 ... 25% compared to 7,62x51 NATO as a landmark achievement, then yes!

              You compare the characteristics taking into account the place of the cartridge in the structure of the platoon weapons of the parties to a possible conflict. And these will not be SIG FURY Hybrid and 7,62x51 NATO. And SIG FURY Hybrid and 5,45x39. And in contrast to 7,62x54, sooner or later 0,338 NM will come out and 0,300 WM is already coming out in sniper weapons. In the platoon, only "Saws" of the "old" caliber 5,56 will remain as a reinforcement, of which there are 6 in the platoon (!!!).
              1. 0
                9 June 2022 15: 23
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                it will not be SIG FURY Hybrid and 7,62x51 NATO. And SIG FURY Hybrid and 5,45x39. And in contrast to 7,62x54, sooner or later 0,338 NM will come out and 0,300 WM is already coming out in sniper weapons

                Well, firstly, while we are talking about special forces. And it seems like the solution is pecking .277 for all hand weapons, .338 for a heavy machine gun (which is not so heavy anymore). and bolts - .50 compared to .338 does not really give anything.
              2. 0
                9 June 2022 16: 46
                Already was. 7,62 NATO vs. AKM, concept failed.
                1. 0
                  9 June 2022 16: 47
                  It is not clear from your message what you consider failed, 7,62 NATO or AKM? It looks like 7,62 NATO, since you put it "against"
                  1. +1
                    9 June 2022 17: 42
                    The concept of individual automatic weapons chambered for 7,62 NATO failed. It is too powerful for this, like the 6,8 mm discussed here.
                    1. 0
                      9 June 2022 18: 19
                      You just don't tell FAL and its derivatives about it.
                      5,56 replaced the 0,300 Carbine niche, not the 7,62 NATO niche. And we stopped at 7,62x39 in order to surpass 0.300 Carbine, and not compete with 7,62x51.
                      The concept is determined by the built tactics. There is an opinion that aimed non-automatic fire from a safe distance is more effective than automatic fire, but there are other tools for CQB.
                      1. +1
                        9 June 2022 19: 00
                        This opinion is completely refuted by the passage to 5,56.
                      2. 0
                        9 June 2022 19: 10
                        This opinion is not from the past)))
                        Now it will be rehabilitated in 10 years by switching to 6,8x51. You do not take into account that a number of factors have changed significantly since the introduction of automatic weapons under a low-pulse cartridge.
                      3. 0
                        9 June 2022 20: 00
                        This is physics. No one has been able to fool her. An increase in cartridge energy to 7,62 NATO means an increase in barrel heating and an increase in weapon recoil (even with a silencer), which in turn puts an end to the intensity and accuracy of automatic fire.
                      4. 0
                        10 June 2022 09: 54
                        This is physics.

                        The changed factors are not from the field of internal ballistics.
                        which in turn puts an end to the intensity and accuracy of automatic fire.

                        I wrote clearly:
                        There is an opinion that aiming non-automatic fire from a safe distance is more effective than automatic fire, and there are other tools for CQB.
                      5. +1
                        9 June 2022 19: 15
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        You just don't tell FAL and its derivatives about it.

                        Why not say? It is impossible to create a guided .308 handgun with the ability to fire bursts from hands weighing less than 8 pounds and without complex solutions, like the same gun carriage.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        5,56 replaced the 0,300 Carbine niche, not the 7,62 NATO niche. And we stopped at 7,62x39 in order to surpass 0.300 Carbine, and not compete with 7,62x51.

                        All messed up. When they gave birth to 7,62x39, there was not even talk about 7,62x52. Was .30-06. Nobody was going to surpass him - just under the influence of WWII, all parties realized the redundancy of a rifle cartridge for automatic hand weapons. Everyone except the Americans.
                        Caliber 5,45 is more or less a hug from the Americans, but God bless him. By the standards of the Soviet riflemen, the solution is relatively decent, at least it shoots
                      6. +1
                        10 June 2022 10: 07
                        It is impossible to create a guided .308 handgun with the ability to fire bursts from hands weighing less than 8 pounds and without complex solutions, like the same gun carriage.

                        It is no more impossible than to create all the same in caliber 0,223, capable of solving the SIBZ problem. You yourself, after all, write
                        Even more - the Americans actually want to make every fighter a maxman. These are no longer pieces of iron, but a new quality of infantry.

                        Why do you need automatic fire in this new capacity?

                        All messed up.

                        Don't judge so harshly
                        I only messed up that it would be better to write "rifle cartridge" instead of "7,62x51", which appeared only as a derivative from the context
                        The concept of individual automatic weapons chambered for 7,62 NATO.

                        No crime)))
                        Everyone except the Americans.

                        As well as the Belgians, British Canadians and other Israelis who decided to create automatic weapons for a rifle cartridge after WWII)) Without trying, you won’t understand hi
                      7. +2
                        10 June 2022 10: 38
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        It is no more impossible than to create all the same in caliber 0,223, capable of solving the SIBZ problem. You yourself, after all, write

                        That every vegetable has its time. The 5.56 cartridge was supposed to tear the carcasses of the Vietnamese, there was no talk of any NIBs. And he did an excellent job with this task, until the effective managers from the Colt company joined in. Now there are other requirements and other solutions.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        Why do you need automatic fire in this new capacity?

                        So, firing in long bursts has been abandoned on a whim for a long time. Fighting in the style of Strelkov's interview "was caught on the street, given a machine gun, will release a horn in the direction of the enemy - maybe it will hook someone" The US MTR is not planning yet.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        As well as Belgians, British Canadians and other Israelis who decided to create automatic weapons for a rifle cartridge after WWII

                        Well, if you want to live here, you won't get so upset. When the Americans pushed through the rifle 7,62x51 instead of the normal intermediate .280 Brirish, they had to somehow turn around. The same FN of the first series weighed 5 kilos, like the M14. At the same time, the M14 could not fire bursts with any sense.
                      8. 0
                        10 June 2022 11: 12
                        That every vegetable has its time.

                        I understand it. I thought that you understand that I understand it))
                        So, firing in long bursts has been abandoned on a whim for a long time.

                        laughing We have an interesting conversation. Apparently, we have a similar view on the issue, but for some reason we are trying to explain this to each other.
                        instead of the normal intermediate .280 Brirish

                        As a result, it resulted in 5,56x45, so I think that "America First" from Stadler played only good here. I don't like 7mm NATO as an alternative.

                        PS By the way, judging by the interesting tender W15QKN-22-X-0NJW, the US plans for 6,8x51 are not "just trying".
                      9. +1
                        10 June 2022 11: 37
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        By the way, judging by the interesting tender W15QKN-22-X-0NJW, the US plans for 6,8x51 are not "just to try".

                        Yes, the movement is noticeable on a very large scale.
                        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                        played only to the advantage here. I don't like 7mm NATO as an alternative

                        Nobody is obliged to love the Americans, but for my taste, the transition to a single-cartridge platoon machine gun - a watering machine gun would have helped them a lot already in the 40s. Already in Korea, childhood illnesses would be healed and in Vietnam they would work normally.
              3. 0
                9 June 2022 18: 05
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                You compare the characteristics taking into account the place of the cartridge in the structure of the platoon weapons of the parties to a possible conflict.

                Why do you think so? Where did you see "this" in my post?
                Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                And these will not be SIG FURY Hybrid and 7,62x51 NATO.

                Namely, that SIG FURY Hybrid vs 7,62x51 NATO. So far, no one has canceled the economy in the war. I wonder why the Americans chose to use a cartridge that exceeds 7,62x51 by only 20%, completely losing in production costs. Moreover, an outdated concept from the mid-20th century is returning to the infantry: an automatic rifle of the M14 / FN FAL type with a heavy and powerful cartridge and a magazine capacity limited to 20 rounds. In the new rifle complex, everyone admires the cartridge, but you need to look at the sighting system, which will allow you to move the battle distance.
                1. +1
                  9 June 2022 18: 57
                  Why do you think so? Where did you see "this" in my post?

                  I wrote "compare", not "compare")))
                  So far, no one has canceled the economy in the war.

                  Since we started to consider the cost of war (although this is meaningless, unlike labor and resource intensity), then the difference in the cost of a cartridge must be compared with the difference in the efficiency of completing tasks when using different cartridges. Starting with considering changes in sanitary losses and savings on it. There are too many connections to reduce the economy only to the cost of production.
                  What does the figure of 20% have to do with the assessment of "superiority" - is that what you mean by superiority of 20%, can you find out?
                  Moreover, the outdated concept of the mid-20th century is returning to the infantry

                  The infantry, compared with the last century, has fantastically increased the ability to detect the enemy early. And here it turns out to be more important how effectively you can hit the enemy with your personal weapon outside the range of his personal weapon.
                  Unlike the last century, a soldier is now more expensive, losing him is more expensive, replacing him (even demographically, and not in terms of preparedness) is more difficult.
                  1. 0
                    9 June 2022 20: 07
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    I wrote "compare", not "compare")))

                    Exactly. Didn't notice...
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    Since we started to consider the cost of war (although this is meaningless, unlike labor and resource intensity), then the difference in the cost of a cartridge must be compared with the difference in the efficiency of completing tasks when using different cartridges.

                    So it is - this criterion is called "cost - effectiveness" in the army. Empirically, it equals K=2,0 and more to the previous (replaced) sample.
                    .
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    What does the figure of 20% have to do with the assessment of "superiority" - is that what you mean by superiority of 20%, can you find out?

                    Gross characteristics of the cartridge compared to 7,62x51 NATO. The superiority is about 1,1 to 1,25 times. Not thick to be honest.
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    And here it turns out to be more important how effectively you can hit the enemy with your personal weapon outside the range of his personal weapon.

                    I don't see it. In Ukraine, the main defeat after detection is inflicted by "art" and aviation, and not by the infantryman's personal weapon. If we take the battles in Mariupol as an example, then there will be more questions about the new American complex. Especially to the capacity of the store and the ammunition carried by the fighter.
                    Quote: Nefarious skeptic
                    Unlike the last century, a soldier is now more expensive, losing him is more expensive, replacing him (even demographically, and not in terms of preparedness) is more difficult.

                    Isn't it easier to replace infantry combat with machine guns with remote fire from highly mobile artillery in conjunction with drones? The problem, in addition to the frontal, always has an alternative solution.
                    1. +1
                      9 June 2022 21: 04
                      Quote: DesToeR
                      Isn't it easier to replace infantry combat with machine guns with remote fire of highly mobile artillery in conjunction with drones?

                      What makes you think that the Americans did not try it? And why should they "replace" the infantry? Infantry is infantry, art is art.
                      Quote: DesToeR
                      In Ukraine, the main defeat after detection is caused by "art" and aviation, and not by the infantryman's personal weapon

                      You see, American MTRs are not designed for the kind of battles that we see now. Therefore, they will not take Marik as an example - they have a lot of their own experience.
                      Quote: DesToeR
                      Empirically, it equals K=2,0 and more to the previous (replaced) sample.

                      You will still be running around with the Maxim machine gun. American MTRs can afford to demand what they see fit.
                      Quote: DesToeR
                      In the new rifle complex, everyone admires the cartridge, but you need to look at the sighting system, which will allow you to move the battle distance.

                      Yes, that is right. Even more - the Americans actually want to make every fighter a maxman. These are no longer pieces of iron, but a new quality of infantry.
                      1. 0
                        10 June 2022 11: 38
                        Quote: Negro
                        You will still be running around with the Maxim machine gun. American MTRs can afford to demand what they see fit.

                        And what about this cartridge + barrel complex only for the US MTR? I looked through the article ... Then there are no questions at all. For 100 thousand fighters, it is possible to adopt Gauss and weapons.
                        Quote: Negro
                        Even more - the Americans actually want to make every fighter a maxman.

                        A healthy question arises: why?
                        Quote: Negro
                        These are no longer pieces of iron, but a new quality of infantry.

                        Such infantry (with only snipers / accurate shooters) will not receive any new quality.
                      2. +3
                        10 June 2022 11: 44
                        Quote: DesToeR
                        And what about this cartridge + barrel complex only for the US MTR?

                        In the coming years, yes. How will it go next. By the way, the shooters in the MTR are quite comparable with the "main" army in terms of quantity.
                        Quote: DesToeR
                        A healthy question arises: why?

                        The rich have their quirks. And specifically, the Americans have been running around with this idea for a hundred years.
                        Quote: DesToeR
                        Such infantry (with only snipers / accurate shooters) will not receive any new quality

                        Well, you know. Wait and see. I, like you, am more interested in the capabilities of the sighting system. I won’t be surprised if they connect it to their combat systems and learn how to do it like Spielberg did. The shooter aims at the tank, pulls the trigger - and figaks, rips off the tower from the tank. Because the sight transmitted aiming at 155mm or Reaper.
                      3. 0
                        10 June 2022 16: 32
                        Quote: Negro
                        By the way, the shooters in the MTR are quite comparable with the "main" army in terms of quantity.

                        It's for today. And after mobilization, the army + navy will surpass the MTR by dozens of times. What to equip them with? And, most importantly, how much will it cost?
                        Quote: Negro
                        The rich have their own quirks.

                        The era of wealth may end very soon.
                        Quote: Negro
                        And specifically, the Americans have been running around with this idea for a hundred years.

                        Yes, "one accurate shot" is so American. Let them think like that.

                        Quote: Negro
                        The shooter aims at the tank, pulls the trigger - and figaks, rips off the tower from the tank. Because the sight transmitted aiming at 155mm or Reaper.

                        I think that when this becomes a reality, by the word "shooter" we will mean a robot, not a person. Although ... over the hypersonic "cartoons" some 5 years ago, the whole world laughed merrily and fervently. And it’s how it turned out ... as always in general.
                      4. +3
                        10 June 2022 17: 37
                        Quote: DesToeR
                        And after mobilization, the army + navy will surpass the MTR by dozens of times.

                        Practice has shown that one can talk about mobilization for 70 years, and when it comes down to it, 1234 battalion tactical groups will work at the former theater of 120 Ukrainian fronts. So there is an opinion that it would be necessary to provide them properly, and somehow save money on mobilization already.
                        Quote: DesToeR
                        What to equip them with?

                        Is someone already going to throw the M-4 into the sea?
                        Quote: DesToeR
                        The era of wealth may end very soon

                        The very imminent end of the era of wealth in America is of little concern.
                        Quote: DesToeR
                        Let them think like that.

                        Well, you know. How they know how to think.
                        Quote: DesToeR
                        we will understand the robot, not the person

                        Or maybe even earlier.
                        Quote: DesToeR
                        Although ... over the hypersonic "cartoons" some 5 years ago, the whole world laughed merrily and fervently. And how it turned out

                        They laughed right.
                    2. 0
                      18 August 2022 20: 34
                      Isn't it easier to replace infantry combat with machine guns with remote fire of highly mobile artillery in conjunction with drones?

                      Closer than 200 m, artillery does not shoot - it will hook its own. And what if there, closer than 200 m, someone else's infantry breaks in?
            2. +2
              9 June 2022 15: 29
              Quote: DesToeR
              If we consider an increase in performance by 10 ... 25% compared to 7,62x51 NATO as a landmark achievement, then yes! cartridge "brutal"

              That is, each infantryman is actually issued a weapon for .300Win Mag. For workers with Pecheneg and SVD, this is so-so news.
              Quote: DesToeR
              There remains, however, a small question of comparative cost with .308 and how quickly a match cartridge wears out the barrel of a weapon

              If I were an American taxpayer, I would worry about this issue. And so - no.
      2. 0
        14 June 2022 09: 33
        cartridge Fedorov 6.5x57, application 6.5x50 Arisar - a necessary measure
        https://topwar.ru/159207-65-mm-patron-fedorova.html
    2. 0
      9 June 2022 16: 44
      There is not and never has been any Fedorov caliber. And they did the right thing, that they switched to 5,45, they failed in tests of 6,5 mm.
    3. -1
      10 June 2022 04: 18
      which did not justify itself either in the American or in the Soviet

      What regiment did you serve in? You are aware of our ....
  6. +2
    9 June 2022 07: 39
    At one time, General V.G. Fedorov proved that the caliber 6,5 - 6,8 has the best balance of qualities for an intermediate small arms cartridge. But the urgency of developing an intermediate cartridge and the quality of the machine park in the USSR during the mid-20th century (1943-48) prevented the use of these calibers.
    1. 0
      9 June 2022 16: 44
      He did not indicate anything of the kind, enough to spread tales already.
      1. 0
        10 June 2022 05: 37
        Quote: Droid
        He did not indicate anything of the kind, enough to spread tales already.

        I'm not saying that Fedorov pointed it out. Simonov spoke about this. In any case, this is how Dvoryaninov wrote about it.
  7. +2
    9 June 2022 09: 55
    For those who are interested, here is the link
    http://www.xn----7sbbfbbsa8hm.xn--p1ai/
    The US Army, completing the Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW) program, has signed a contract for the first deliveries of new squad weapons. The M4/M4A1 carbine from the M16 family is exchanged for the XM5 rifle (automatic), the M249 machine gun is exchanged for the XM250 light machine gun. Both new samples use a single 6,8 mm cartridge, developed specifically for the NGSW program. At the first stage, new weapons and ammunition will be purchased in the amount of $20,4 million for military trials. Thus, the United States moved to the practical replacement of small arms caliber 5,56 mm and possibly 7,62 mm. This landmark event is comparable only to the transition to the 5,56 mm cartridge about sixty years ago.

    The Americans are creating a reserve for the future, not wanting to lose their military advantage over Russia and China. Concluding that bulletproof vests will continue to improve, more advanced weapons are also needed that can hit a protected enemy at ranges of small arms combat.
  8. +2
    9 June 2022 10: 57
    Will a new barrel be attached to every 1000 rounds?
    1. 0
      9 June 2022 12: 38
      I believe that the barrels will be enough for more than 1000 shots ....
    2. 0
      10 June 2022 18: 12
      Quote: Kolin
      will every 1000 rounds come with a new barrel

      You are right, the Americans have a lot of problems with "tank" pressure in the barrel. Looking for a second cartridge with normal pressure and normal bullet speed for everyday training, so as not to "plant" the barrels.
      Here it is in detail and step by step: www.svateev-va.rf - Penetrating means of individual armor protection.
  9. 0
    9 June 2022 12: 42
    Oh, and the price of cartridges, then what will be the cosmic ... manufacturers will get rich.
    It’s easier to shoot with pieces of gold right away.
    Yes, and they forgot about barrel wear at such and such a pressure, as well as corrosion in cartridges when combining different materials.
  10. +1
    9 June 2022 20: 08
    The transition to 6,8x51 looks justified at first glance, against the background of increased armor protection of the infantry.
    But this will greatly affect the ability to conduct well-aimed fire in bursts, and reduce the wearable ammunition. The recoil momentum of the new cartridge is about 5-6% lower than the .308 win.
    Wouldn't the best option be to increase the muzzle velocity in the caliber 5,56 to 1000 m / s, increase the mass of the bullet and use armor-piercing cores made of tungsten carbide?
    In general, the most interesting in the MCX program were samples from Textron with a telescopic cartridge: light, with low recoil. IMHO, they could revolutionize small arms to a certain extent.
    1. 0
      10 June 2022 18: 20
      Quote: 3danimal
      Wouldn't the best option be to increase the muzzle velocity in the caliber 5,56 to 1000 m / s, increase the mass of the bullet and use armor-piercing cores made of tungsten carbide?

      Increasing the speed - yes, the way to go. This new cartridge is 6,8 mm and gives a significantly higher bullet speed, which is still hidden. Assumption - 1070m/s.
      Tungsten carbide is expensive. In addition, a modern 5,45 mm tungsten carbide bullet DOES NOT penetrate modern body armor.
      These and other issues are discussed in great detail at www.svateev-va.rf
      Quote: 3danimal
      examples from Textron with telescopic chuck: light, low recoil

      The return there is exactly the same as that of other contestants. Because the bullet and its initial speed are set by the US Army and, according to the laws of physics, the return will be the same. Textron only slightly stretched the impact of recoil on the shooter in time due to barrel recoil. But he lost the competition.
      1. 0
        10 June 2022 18: 41
        Increasing the speed - yes, the way to go. This new cartridge is 6,8 mm and gives a significantly higher bullet speed, which is still hidden. Assumption - 1070m/s.
        Tungsten carbide is expensive. In addition, a modern 5,45 mm tungsten carbide bullet DOES NOT penetrate modern body armor.

        General idea: the new cartridge should still have a recoil momentum of at least 7,62x39.
        There is, for example, an interesting ammunition 6mm Dasher, the momentum is 25% less than .308 win, the muzzle energy is about 2900 J. If we count to the cross-sectional area of ​​​​the bullet (J / mm2), then it exceeds .308 by 26%, even more than .227 Fury (only +20%).
  11. 0
    10 June 2022 11: 23
    Am I the only one who sees what the gun has in the photo, something with the barrel?
    1. 0
      10 June 2022 11: 40
      Am I the only one who sees what the gun has in the photo, something with the barrel?

      Were you afraid of his misalignment with the frame? smile
      Don't worry, it's all right. Just an automation system with a moving barrel.
      1. 0
        10 June 2022 12: 48
        Quote: Nefarious skeptic
        Were you afraid of his misalignment with the frame?
        Don't worry, it's all right. Just an automation system with a moving barrel.

        The Papuans love to create complexity from scratch. What does this moving barrel system directly give?
        1. 0
          10 June 2022 13: 10
          Disengages and locks the barrel and bolt like any other locking system. Just one of the designs
      2. 0
        12 June 2022 06: 52
        skewed trunk
  12. 0
    11 June 2022 22: 10
    excellent and balanced patterns of firing!
  13. IVZ
    0
    12 June 2022 17: 21
    Quote: Bobik012
    To disable a fighter and even cause death, breaking through a vest is not a prerequisite at all.
    so-called. "blunt trauma" is a damaging factor in case of non-penetration of the soft-type BZ. If the armor plate does not penetrate, it usually does not lead to serious consequences.
  14. 0
    14 June 2022 11: 56
    A silencer is not a necessity. The XM-5 does fine without it, it is a Pentagon requirement (the reasons were discussed on the site). "Gas contamination" - refers to compared with old devices that create pressure in the barrel during extraction. The regulator is necessary to select firing with a silencer / without, and not the mythical "automatic can not cope." Crosshair in illustration by L3Harris , who lost the contest .
    There is nothing "brutal" about the cartridge - it is not a magnum . Improving performance through complex optimization, rather than simply increasing power to the eyeballs. High pressure (due to fast-burning gunpowder) is used to reduce the size of the weapon, and not for "elephant-piercing". There is also no accelerated barrel wear (as in pistols). Allegedly prohibitive high cost is also a myth: steel and aluminum are cheaper than brass, parts are more technologically advanced than a conventional closed sleeve, fast-burning gunpowder is not a problem for the American chemical industry. There is nothing unusual about the bullets either, except for the caliber . Prices should be looked at military orders, not commercial hunting cartridges. "Match bullets" are entirely on the conscience of the author.
    There is no supercomplexity of operation. The sight is not for supermen, but for pulling the average shooter up to the level of a sniper with a very simple use. Electronics instead of the human factor.
    "Small ammunition": the concept of application is moving from blunt lead flooding (maybe it will hit) to "pinpoint destruction". For combat in a confined space, the company is preparing to develop high-capacity stores. 308-round box magazines and 25-round drum magazines are serially produced for the similarly sized 50.
    In general - another workhorse at a new technological level.
    Keep in mind - the presented sample was tested, according to the results of which the modified serial M-5 will be adopted.
    You can easily check the rest of the fantasies yourself so that the comment does not turn into an article.
  15. -1
    31 July 2022 02: 26
    The real SIG Sauer GmbH closed in Europe in 2020. But in the States, instead of the Swiss and the Germans, a gentleman by the name of Kogan became the head of the subsidiary. And then the state orders were flooded, how they were flooded! Just like Abramovich and Berezovsky ...
  16. 0
    18 August 2022 00: 11
    A beautiful thing, of course. But given all the bells and whistles of the ammunition, I would like to know the price of the consumable itself. It seems to me that she will be very, very

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