Military Review

Russian attack helicopters

299

Any military operation is always rich ground for analyzing the actual combat effectiveness of the weapons systems used, and a special military operation is no exception in this respect. There, in addition to aircraft, our Aerospace Forces actively use all models of helicopter equipment and, analyzing the footage from the scene, the question may arise - why do our Aerospace Forces need two models of attack helicopters that perform essentially identical functions. And this is not even counting the MI-35, which, although it belongs to the transport-combat class, is quite capable of performing strike functions.


In my opinion, in the process of conducting the CBO, we have already received enough data to conclude that of our two attack helicopters, one has clear advantages. We are talking about the Kamov KA-52 helicopter. What are these benefits?

Benefit #1


In the classic layout of a helicopter with a tail rotor, a shaft is located inside the tail boom, which transmits torque from the gearbox to the tail rotor. In addition, the design of the tail boom implies the presence of a load-bearing frame, which must withstand constant "break" loads caused by the operation of this very tail rotor.

At the same time, the most common MANPADS guidance systems involve guidance along a thermal trail, i.e., to the region of the rear hemisphere of the helicopter. Heat traps are designed to divert missiles to the side, but there are often cases when they do not have time to do this, and the explosion occurs just in the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbthe tail boom. What does the operation of the warhead of a MANPADS missile in this area lead to? If there is a “breaking” force moment and the beam is damaged by an explosion, it simply breaks in half and “folds”. The helicopter instantly loses control, and from that moment the crew is essentially doomed.

A vivid example of such a scenario is a video from a special operation in Ukraine (you can watch it from the 0:50 mark).


Now let's take a look at the "tail boom" of the KA-52.

Russian attack helicopters

The tail section, unlike the Mi-28, is shorter and much thicker, does not contain a power take-off shaft inside and does not experience constant moments of force for a break. I would venture to suggest that even if this tail is completely torn off (this seems an impossible task for a low-powered MANPADS warhead), the machine, although it will no longer be controlled normally, the loss of control will not be as fatal as in the case of the Mi-28. The crew will have the time and, most importantly, the opportunity to take action to save both their lives and, possibly, the car.

Now let's talk about the possibilities...

Benefit #2: Catapult


The KA-52 helicopters have a real ejection system, which allows saving the lives of the crew even in situations where the helicopter has received heavy damage. The principle of its operation is simple - first, the main rotor blades are fired, and then the “extraction” of pilots from the aircraft in distress is carried out using the classic ejection method.

It is difficult to overestimate this option - every reader, having tried to imagine himself in the pilot's place, will probably prefer to fly in a helicopter that allows ejection than in a car without such an option. Thus, the mere presence of a catapult can already be considered as a decisive argument for the KA-52, in its correspondence dispute with the Mi-28.

Saving the lives of pilots is good, both from a moral point of view and from a practical point of view (if you turn on the cynicism mode) - a lot of money and time is spent on their training, which makes them a valuable military resource, irreplaceable in modern wars. The latter is especially true when it comes to an experienced crew.

Benefit #3: Booking concept


The Mi-28 was developed on the basis of an outdated concept, which implied that the helicopter would be directly affected by the enemy’s cannon anti-aircraft systems, in other words, the helicopter would be fired from machine guns, including large-caliber ones.

And since they will shoot, it means that the crew must be well protected. Thus, one of the "calling cards" of the Mi-28 was its armored capsule for the crew.


The thickness of the door clearly illustrates the level of booking of the cab. It becomes clear why the Mi-28 is called "flying a tank»

The problem with this approach is that a helicopter, even if it is called a "flying tank", in its essence still remains a helicopter, i.e. every kilogram of weight must be kept in the air, which means that every kilogram of weight inevitably affects others characteristics of the vehicle, such as thrust-to-weight ratio, maneuverability, combat radius and combat load. The presence of an overweight armored capsule reduces all these parameters.

The United States, at one time, took a different path - they implied that the helicopter's weapon systems would have to allow it to destroy the enemy without entering the zone of its air defense, at least the barrel. An example of such weapons are the famous missiles ""Helfair", having a range of up to 10 km and, most importantly, working on the principle of "fire and forget."

As a clear demonstration of what is at stake, I propose to consider a specific example from the NWO zone, which has already been reported on "Military Review".


We are more interested in the second video presented. It shows that our pilots begin to attack the target from a distance of 7,1 km. Then, after the missile is launched, when the distance to the target is 6,75 km, the pilot says "I'm leaving quietly" and begins a very smooth turn to the left (quite "quietly"). The missile hits the target 10 seconds after the start of the lapel. All these 10 seconds, the pilot is forced to fly straight in order to ensure targeting for the entire time that the rocket is flying. Making a slight turn at this moment does not fundamentally change the situation, the helicopter flies along an uncomplicated trajectory, approaching enemy positions, which together increases the risk every additional second of such a flight.

What would change if we had analogues of the Helfire missile in our armament?

Well, firstly, it would be possible to attack the target from a greater distance, not from 7, but from 9 km (1 km in both cases remains in reserve to compensate for possible non-ideal launch conditions). And this is nothing less than two additional kilometers to the enemy positions.

Secondly, the pilot could begin a full-fledged departure to the side immediately after the rocket was launched. This would save those very 10 seconds and would completely avoid an enemy air defense attack in a particular episode.

This example allows you to clearly understand exactly how weapons systems affect the survivability of the helicopters themselves in the process of combat work in practice.

Having relied on such weapons systems, the US and other NATO countries abandoned heavy armor for their attack helicopters. In order to understand the difference in the degree of booking, you can just take a quick look at the famous "Apache".


One of the modifications of "Apache". You can visually compare the thickness of the “booking” of doors and cockpit glazing with similar parameters of the Mi-28

The Ka-52 also does not use powerful cockpit armor, which means it does not carry "extra fat" and thus is conceptually much closer to modern approaches to helicopter construction.

It remains only to develop for him analogues of the American "Hellfire", working on the principle of "fire and forget."

Benefit 4: coaxial layout


Being the hallmark of Kamov helicopters, the coaxial propeller arrangement gives the KA-52 unique advantages. Rotating the propellers in opposite directions allows you to get rid of the tail rotor, which in the classical scheme takes about 10% of the engine power. That is, it can be roughly said that a helicopter with a coaxial propeller arrangement, other things being equal, will be 10% more “powerful” than the same, but with a classical scheme. Which by itself will certainly affect the main characteristics of the helicopter already mentioned above.

Also, the coaxial scheme turned out to be very successful for use in sea-based options. On the one hand, propeller diameters are smaller, and such helicopters are more convenient for deployment in ship hangars. On the other hand, the coaxial scheme makes the helicopter very stable and maneuverable in hover modes, which is very important on navy, both for the operation of take-off and landing on the deck, and for hovering helicopters above the water surface.

Conclusions


Ka-52s showed all their advantages in practice during the NWO, which means that in the future Russia should increase their production, including by reducing the production of Mi-28s. The production of helicopters in larger series will reduce the cost of each unit.

At the same time, the American concept of weapons should be recognized as more promising, taking into account modern trends, which means that it is necessary to create our domestic analogues of the American Helfires as soon as possible. Especially given the fact that the Americans do not stand still and improve their weapons systems, already increasing their range to 16 km.
Author:
Photos used:
VO, Wikipedia, https://mil.ru/
299 comments
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 05: 20
    +21
    Benefit #3: Booking concept
    And what kind of new concept is applied to the Ka-52? Is it like that?


    Ka-52 also does not use powerful cockpit armor, which means it does not carry "excess fat"


    Well, it's nonsense! The forehead is armored, the doors are with armored shields, the protection is declared all-round up to 12,7, and the forehead and cheekbones are up to 23 mm. Already "Apache" and does not hang nearby.

    The fact that the helicopter is armored has no effect on the missiles used, but directly on the survivability of the vehicle and the survivability of the crew!
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 8 June 2022 05: 42
      +26
      the concept of "fire and forget", something is frankly stalling with us, and this is with the "avant-gardes", "zircons" and "calibers" ...
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 05: 57
        +4
        Quote: Aerodrome
        the concept of "fire and forget", something is frankly stalling with us, and this is with the "avant-gardes", "zircons" and "calibers" ...

        But what about the armor?
        1. Aerodrome
          Aerodrome 8 June 2022 06: 10
          +5
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Quote: Aerodrome
          the concept of "fire and forget", something is frankly stalling with us, and this is with the "avant-gardes", "zircons" and "calibers" ...

          But what about the armor?

          nothing to do with.
          it is necessary to create our domestic analogues of the American Helfires as soon as possible. Especially considering that the Americans do not stand still and improve their weapons systems, having already increased their range to 16 km.
          1. dSK
            dSK 8 June 2022 06: 57
            -4
            this is when there will be no shortage of microelectronic components ...
            1. Ruby
              Ruby 8 June 2022 08: 44
              +12
              The shortage of chips arose about a year and a half, maximum two years ago. How old is Helfire, Jewelyn and the other Spikes? We have almost nothing on this topic, and really did not do.
              1. New-pechkin
                New-pechkin 8 June 2022 09: 20
                +1
                Yes, it has long been known about our lag in the 3rd generation anti-tank systems. And the author draws conclusions about the need for our analogues. These conclusions were made and substantiated in the comments on this site thousands of times and in dozens of articles. All this has already been chewed up to the level of any understanding, even completely fool
              2. bk316
                bk316 8 June 2022 17: 15
                +4
                How old is Helfire, Jewelyn and the other Spikes?

                37 years old THIRTY SEVEN KARL!!!
                So some kind of deficit, like Chubais, has nothing to do with it.
              3. Mountain shooter
                Mountain shooter 9 June 2022 05: 55
                +2
                Quote: Yakut
                The shortage of chips arose a year and a half ago. How old is Helfire, Jevelyn and the other Spikes? There is practically nothing on this topic, and it has not really been done

                The chip shortage isn't just chips. These are "military" schemes - military applications. Such chips have not been supplied to Russia since time immemorial. And their factories, for their production, which survived after the pogrom of the 90s, were barely alive for a long time, were financed very poorly. There was still trouble. Military acceptance. And it does not accept the improvement of production technology! Because tests are required, expensive and lasting for years, in order to adopt a new technology and documentation for it ... On the one hand, this is necessary, but on the other hand, it "conserves" the technological base, equipment is purchased for "old" technologies. You won't make much progress in this state of affairs. And the factories for the production of this equipment have not been making it for many, many years. At least since the mid 90s.
                1. barbos
                  barbos 10 June 2022 00: 41
                  0
                  The chip shortage isn't just chips. These are "military" schemes - military applications.
                  Are these in a ceramic case and just in case with a sapphire backing? And also special contacts to the chip itself, so that the climate can withstand, which, in truth, slammed with us. Ours and not only have been and are engaged in repacking into the required cases with the appropriate connection of the leads.

                  There was still trouble. Military acceptance. And it does not accept the improvement of production technology! Because trials are required, costly and lasting for years, to accept new technology and its documentation...
                  Climate, vibration stand and moisture resistance. There, the requirements are not much tougher than in consumer electronics for mobile technology. Delov for a couple of days at most. Out for cars, chips are produced for a temperature range from -40 to +125. Because engines can get warm even in severe frost.
            2. barbos
              barbos 10 June 2022 00: 48
              -1
              The chip itself is a piece of silicon with sputtered tracks and semiconductors. Without a program, just a high-tech crystal. When you have a program, you can compile it for the corresponding chip, run it in a virtual machine or in an emulator, or, at worst, port it. But to fit the chip to the program, this is already on the verge of fantasy.
              Overcome the shortage of chips, what's next? The program controls the flight of the rocket, it also captures and holds the target.
          2. Civil
            Civil 8 June 2022 07: 43
            +3
            The author is right. Most of the videos from the NWO are from the Ka-52. True, there is one nuance, the Ka-52 is much more complicated and more expensive than the Mi-28, which uses part of the nodes with the Mi-24/8.
            1. jngus
              jngus 8 June 2022 08: 40
              0
              Yes, price is the main factor.
            2. KERMET
              KERMET 8 June 2022 14: 40
              +3
              Is there anywhere at least approximate data on the difference in their price?
              1. Civil
                Civil 8 June 2022 15: 10
                -2
                Quote: KERMET
                Is there anywhere at least approximate data on the difference in their price?

                A simple comparison of configurations indicates a difference ... for example, the presence of 2 catapults for the crew and a system of coaxial propellers. It's already very expensive.
              2. TreeSmall
                TreeSmall 8 June 2022 17: 20
                +10
                Is there anywhere at least approximate data on the difference in their price?

                belay
                In October 2021, the Ministry of Defense announced that the cost of one copy of the Ka-52M will be 1 billion 75 million rubles (about $ 15 million at the exchange rate in October 2021)
                VS
                Krivoruchko 2019: "Initially, the price of the Mi-28NM helicopter offered by JSC Russian Helicopters was 1,5 times higher than the cost of the Mi-28UB helicopter purchased for the needs of the Russian Ministry of Defense
                The cost of the Mi-28UB will be "slightly higher" than the base model Mi-28N (which, according to Aircraftcompare.com, ranges from $16,8 million to $18 million).
                Conclusion: Ka-52 is cheaper
              3. sh3roman
                sh3roman 9 June 2022 14: 53
                0
                Wikipedia had the price of the Ka-52, they wrote that about 800 wooden lyams. In October 2021, the Ministry of Defense announced that the cost of one copy of the Ka-52M would be 1 billion 75 million rubles
            3. Grits
              Grits 9 June 2022 16: 03
              0
              Quote: Civil
              where part of the nodes with the Mi-24/8 is used.

              But the Mi-24 and Mi-35 directly on the NWO are not visible at all. Seems to be outdated?
            4. Madjestik85
              Madjestik85 23 June 2022 22: 10
              0
              This means it needs to be harder and more expensive. need to do more ka-52
      2. Yarik
        Yarik 8 June 2022 10: 23
        -6
        Because our chips are the largest in the world
      3. Dedok
        Dedok 8 June 2022 11: 01
        -4
        Quote: Aerodrome
        the concept of "fire and forget", something is frankly stalling with us, and this is with the "avant-gardes", "zircons" and "calibers" ...

        and such an impression - no one set such tasks ....
        they don’t sit at the helm, they don’t shoot at them ...
        this is the main problem of the current RF Armed Forces: “comfortable” people are sitting around
      4. PROXOR
        PROXOR 8 June 2022 13: 45
        -2
        Zircons and the like work on static and slow-moving targets the size of a good vessel and more. Even if you equip them with a good video matrix and teach them to work on targets like a tank, try to fit all the stuffing of the same zircon or caliber into a Chrysanthemum-type rocket.
        1. bk316
          bk316 8 June 2022 17: 19
          +1
          Irkons and the like work on static and slow-moving targets the size of a good vessel and more. Even if you equip them with a good video matrix and teach them to work on targets like a tank, try to fit all the stuffing of the same zircon or caliber into a Chrysanthemum-type missile.

          How then does the RVV-SD work, it already has a much more maneuvering target.
          1. stirrer
            stirrer 9 June 2022 00: 27
            -2
            Well, she has a completely different pointing principle, although it is quite possible to meet her dimensions with all video matrices, IR cameras, etc., even on the Russian element base.
          2. PROXOR
            PROXOR 9 June 2022 09: 02
            0
            RVV-SD operates on the radar, while 80% of its flight the carrier guides the missile via the radio channel. It's definitely not fired and forgot.
            1. bk316
              bk316 9 June 2022 13: 06
              -2
              The RVV-SD has a homing head. It was about the fact that we technically cannot create a GOS in such dimensions. They did it in the dimensions of the RVV-SD GOS, she has it and not just has it, but works for much more maneuverable purposes.
              1. PROXOR
                PROXOR 10 June 2022 12: 46
                -1
                Quote: bk316
                The RVV-SD has a homing head.

                All right. It turns on at the final stage of the flight. and believe me, this head does not distinguish what is in front of it in the light. Fighter or passenger board.
                The homing head of the 3rd generation ATGM differs from the head of the RVV-SD, like a Zhiguli from a foreign car.
                Let's start point by point:
                1) The RVV-SD seeker turns on at the last stage of the missile’s flight, and can easily confuse the target, the 3rd generation ATGM seeker must identify the target before launch and guide it throughout the flight;
                2) the GOS RVV-SD has a simple architecture with a simple emitter and a receiving antenna. The antenna receives the reflected radar signal, and with the help of not the most complex electronics, algorithms perform adjustments with the missile's rudders. The GOS of the 3rd generation ATGM carries an observation camera, and often a thermal imaging one. What a BRAIN, so that when you see the thermal signature of the tank, you don’t confuse it with the nearest thermal signal from some kind of fire. And the most important thing. The ATGM GOS sees the target against the background of the earth, while the RVV-SD against the sky (I think there is no need to explain the difference). And finally, the ATGM seeker, having the task of hitting armored vehicles in the upper hemisphere, must constantly calculate the trajectory where the target will arrive after flight time and at what point it is necessary to start diving.

                Hence the conclusion of the GOS RVV-SD is not an example simpler than the GOS of the 3rd generation ATGM. That is why we don't have it. Since Russia, like the USSR, did not have and does not have access to microelectronics.
                1. bk316
                  bk316 10 June 2022 13: 26
                  -2
                  Galovka


                  Are you a radiophysicist, electronics engineer, programmer, aircraft weapons engineer?
                  Straight galovka?
                  AnteНand?
                  reflectionНth?
                  RadiolАcationic?
                  BronИtechnique?

                  And separately.
                  Point by point?
                  Any one?

                  Still, mister sharovarnik?
                  If not, then let's master the spelling of the Russian language at the C grade level in the Unified State Examination. Then learn the thesaurus of the area in question. And then you will argue with me. laughing
                  1. PROXOR
                    PROXOR 10 June 2022 13: 47
                    +4
                    In general, there is nothing to answer you in essence.
                    You are flushed down the toilet.
                    1. bk316
                      bk316 10 June 2022 14: 53
                      -1
                      In general, there is nothing to answer you in essence.

                      Are you basically ready?
                      I already wrote something, so I will repeat it.
                      There is a concept of a native speaker, he simply cannot make some spelling mistakes, his hand will not rise.
                      And each specialist also has a professional vocabulary.
                      Well, I can’t, for example, write a “program” with one m.
                      Do you know why this is so?
                      Because the specialist read and wrote these words thousands, tens of thousands of times, both when he studied and read textbooks, and when he worked and when (in my case) he taught and wrote textbooks himself.

                      Judging by your writings, you don’t understand anything either in radar or
                      in electronics. All your education from the wiki. Well, please tell me how can I actually answer you if you do NOT have basic knowledge?
                      Well, let's take at random any of your proposals.

                      And finally, the ATGM seeker, having the task of hitting armored vehicles in the upper hemisphere, must constantly calculate the trajectory where the target will arrive after flight time and at what point it is necessary to start diving.

                      Wonderful. As I understand it, this is a hint of the low performance of our CPUs (let it be the CPU and not a specialized microcircuit, although of course it is used). A simple question and what performance is sufficient to solve this problem with a target speed of 20 m / s, a rocket speed of 400 m / s and a shot distance of 4 km?
                      A hint for losers, what is the difference between the algorithms for hitting the side and the upper hemisphere, which one is more computationally complex and by how much?

                      Well, kind of nonsense
                      And the most important thing. GOS ATGM sees the target against the background of the earth, while RVV-SD against the sky

                      Why?
                      1. 3danimal
                        3danimal 10 June 2022 22: 28
                        +3
                        algorithms for hitting the side and the upper hemisphere, which one is more computationally complex and how much?

                        Do you understand that 2nd generation ATGMs DO NOT have an algorithm for hitting the side? There is only the ability to fly in the laser beam, each time compensating for leaving it (therefore, the flight path is spiral). Directs a beam of a rocket into the side of the brain of the operator, through the hands (which may be inexperienced, trembling with nerves while under fire) and a joystick.
                        And the brains of the 3rd generation ptur should:
                        Track the target, its and its own trajectory, calculate the lead point (in real time, constantly adjusting), taking into account the approach and dive on the target.
                        Yes, it requires noticeably more computing power.
                        And a good thermal imaging matrix.
                      2. bk316
                        bk316 15 June 2022 12: 50
                        0
                        Yes, it requires noticeably more computing power.

                        So I ask you a question, what is it?
                        In flops in mips in anything.
                        You wrote a statement about nothing. "Big" is what?
                        Is this a real problem or blah blah about Soviet microcircuits, the largest microcircuit in the world?
      5. abc_alex
        abc_alex 8 June 2022 19: 46
        +2
        Quote: Aerodrome
        the concept of "fire and forget", something is frankly stalling with us, and this is with the "avant-gardes", "zircons" and "calibers" ...


        We are more focused on the concept of "shot - hit."
        1. PROXOR
          PROXOR 10 June 2022 12: 47
          0
          One does not cancel the other.
      6. vovochkarzhevsky
        vovochkarzhevsky 9 June 2022 10: 39
        -1
        Have you ever performed combat launches of ATGMs?
    2. AlexHafele
      AlexHafele 8 June 2022 09: 30
      +11
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      The fact that the helicopter is armored has no effect on the missiles used, but directly on the survivability of the vehicle and the survivability of the crew!

      On the contrary.
      I understood the logic differently - the fact that our helicopters do not have the same weapons as the Yankees (long-range and "shot and forget") makes the pilots come closer to the enemy, which means that the risk of hitting a helicopter from heavy machine guns is higher.

      And there is logic in this. Technology is getting more and more expensive. And it is not reasonable to substitute an expensive helicopter for cheap machine guns.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 09: 50
        +3
        Quote: AlexHafele
        I understood the logic differently - that our helicopters do not have the same weapons as the Yankees
        The author’s logic is crooked and the composition of weapons, even Apache, even Cobras, even Ka-52 with their cannons, machine guns and even automatic grenade launchers, looks at her like a kakahu. And the photos of Apaches almost shot down by rifles also look at this logic.
        And the Soviet ATGMs from Phalanx to Whirlwind look the same way.
        The only thing that is not crooked in the author’s logic is that long-range ATGMs are needed, but armor has nothing to do with this.
        1. AlexHafele
          AlexHafele 8 June 2022 10: 04
          0
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          And the photos of Apaches almost shot down by rifles also look at this logic.

          You don't say that by accident.

          It was a special information campaign that the Apache is shot down by a rifle.

          Was the pilot killed with a rifle? No.
          Was the helicopter hit by the Gunshot? Yes.

          But the armor of our helicopters only protects the cockpit.
          In Gastomel, our KA 52 was also landed with cannon artillery. Did the armor help? No. So what's the difference with that Apache? You can also put a person with a rifle next to you and take the same photo "Ka-52 knocked down a swineherd from a double-barreled shotgun." The only difference will be that every minute of our flight they carry a lot of armor, instead of a payload.
          1. Vladimir_2U
            Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 11: 19
            +3
            Quote: AlexHafele
            You don't say that by accident.
            Yes, of course, on purpose, even came to consciousness specifically for this. laughing

            Quote: AlexHafele
            Was the pilot killed with a rifle? No.
            Was the helicopter hit by the Gunshot? Yes.

            As a result, the helicopters were seen visually and came under well-coordinated fire. from small arms of the local militia. .. ... 1 helicopter was shot down ... ... The co-pilot of one of the Apaches (weapons operator) was wounded in the neck by a bullet from a Kalashnikov assault riflethat pierced the armor of a helicopter


            Quote: AlexHafele
            In Gastomel, our KA 52 was also landed with cannon artillery.
            Even if this is true, and it wasn’t so, missiles, don’t you understand the difference between small arms and MZA? And at the same time, the crew escaped, not by ejection, but by landing the car.


            Quote: AlexHafele
            The only difference will be that every minute of our flight they carry a lot of armor, instead of a payload.
            What nonsense! All attack helicopters are armored, more or less. And the fighters carry bulletproof vests on themselves all the time, because they are boobies? (irony)

            In short, armor is good and saves the lives of pilots and this has nothing to do with the range of missiles.
            1. AlexHafele
              AlexHafele 8 June 2022 11: 26
              0
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              What nonsense! All attack helicopters are armored, more or less. And the fighters carry bulletproof vests on themselves all the time, because they are boobies? (irony)

              Ah here questions measure me seems. Body armor is also different, from assault to "plate carriers" which are simply "covers" for armor plates on straps. Protection classes are again different.

              And the logic is similar - it makes more sense for attack aircraft to wear an assault kit, and those who stay away (for example, snipers) make no sense to wear a lot of armor.
    3. Incvizitor
      Incvizitor 9 June 2022 20: 08
      0
      Something mi 24 and mi 35 is not particularly visible, then maybe mi 8 can be finished up to the current level to set the standards for weapons and heat traps and use them as transport vehicles for the same landing and its support? Are all these crocodiles really necessary? And how purely percussion ka 52 ...
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 10 June 2022 03: 00
        0
        Quote: Incvizitor
        Something mi 24 and mi 35 is not particularly visible,

        Not particularly, does not mean that they do not apply.

        https://pikabu.ru/story/rossiyskiy_mi24_unichtozhaet_ukrainskiy_zrk_buk_8870827?ysclid=l47o03y61n336328695
        There are few vids, but there are more messages.

        Quote: Incvizitor
        mi 8 to finish up to the modern level to put weapons standards

        The Mi-24 is actually a fat-free Mi-8, much like the AN-1 "Cobra" is a fat-free UH-1 Huey / Iroquois.
        Well, Mi-8AMTSH. With weapons and means of protection, norms, with armor are worse, and he has trouble with sights, for layout reasons.
        1. Incvizitor
          Incvizitor 10 June 2022 21: 58
          0
          For me, the mi 24 is an attempt to make an attack helicopter (in the absence of it at that time) with transport capabilities, but now there are enough attack helicopters as a transport mi 8 is mainly used for me, I need one good attack helicopter with modern sights, missiles, a gun, and one transport with body kit capabilities not the most modern, but weapons to support the same infantry that is now being landed are all very swollen two shock three transport weapons.
  2. Siberian 66
    Siberian 66 8 June 2022 05: 36
    +12
    Maybe, in addition to booking, it is worth comparing weapons, communication systems, reconnaissance, guidance, the ability to work at night, and only then make verdicts?
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 8 June 2022 15: 15
      +1
      Exactly good
      Modern weapons are so effective that a hit with a very high probability means a downing.
      No amount of armor will protect a helicopter, for example, from being hit by Starstreak tungsten darts.
      It is much more profitable NOT to get under fire.
  3. KCA
    KCA 8 June 2022 05: 46
    +14
    Do we use helicopters for pinpoint destruction of one target? And what about the cover of the landing? KA-52 "fired from 9 km, forgot" and flew away, and at that time the landing MI-8s were shooting at everything that shoots, but what about the use of KA-52 or MI-28 NURS, guns?
    1. novel66
      novel66 8 June 2022 09: 26
      +8
      with so many MANPADS, firing from a cannon is too unpredictable attraction
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 8 June 2022 15: 12
      +1
      The vast majority of videos show the use of Ka-52 only NURSs and cannons - unguided weapons.
      This is very different from the Apache footage, which often uses ATGMs.
      Few Whirlwinds available? Has the money been successfully disbursed? request
      1. KCA
        KCA 8 June 2022 15: 40
        +5
        What is the point of hollowing out ATGMs on enemy infantry dispersed on the ground? One ATGM - one corpse, normal, but isn't it a little expensive?
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 8 June 2022 16: 14
          -4
          Hear: all the videos demonstrate the use of only NURSs, and even a canopy, from a cabling (who will you get into like that, in a circle with a diameter of 1-1,5 km?),
          less guns.
          The latter, by the way, differs little from the hanging cannon container due to the extremely small pointing angles.
          IMHO, on Apache and Mi-28 (Mi-35, "Tiger", "Harbin", UH-1Z) a much better solution for firing dispersed targets.
          1. KERMET
            KERMET 8 June 2022 18: 15
            +5
            The decision as on the Mi-28 (while maintaining the power of the gun) leads to worse accuracy, the decision on the Apache - the worst ballistics (due to a decrease in the power of the gun) and shells not used by ground forces are used
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 8 June 2022 19: 27
              0
              As practice shows, an Apache cannon (800 m / s muzzle velocity) is quite enough for armored personnel carriers, everything that is stronger takes NAR or even more reliable - ATGM.
              A cannon in a mobile turret radically increases the helicopter's ability to fire at point targets, including such dangerous ones as MANPADS crews. Especially in combination with a helmet-mounted target designation system, when the pilot points the gun at the next target by simply turning his head.

              Unification with the BMP is not so important. In the world, the unification of helicopter guns with aircraft guns is more likely, for example, the M61 and its lightened up to 3 trunks M197 on the Cobra, the Chinese copy of the GSh-23L on the Harbin.
              1. KERMET
                KERMET 8 June 2022 20: 37
                +6
                You had to sit on the commission, which in the 80s laid down the requirements for an attack helicopter, there was also about the use of existing guns and ammunition (a new gun was created for the AN-64) and about the 30 mm caliber. The Milevtsy, without hesitation, stuck the same weapon as on the Ka onto the turntable and caught all the "charms" from this decision. Here 23 mm would have looked organically there, but no one canceled the TTZ.
                Unification with ground equipment was important, because the new Ka and Mi were supposed to be used directly in the advanced units, sat on the site, replenished the ammunition of the land colleagues and again went into battle.
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 9 June 2022 13: 14
                  0
                  The Milevtsy, without hesitation, stuck the same weapon as on the Ka onto the turntable and caught all the "charms" from this decision. Here 23 mm would have looked organically there, but no one canceled the TTZ.
                  Unification with ground equipment was important, because the new Ka and Mi were supposed to be used directly in the advanced units, sat on the site, replenished the ammunition of the land colleagues and again went into battle.

                  For the Mi-28, a good option is the 2A72 installation. Almost three times less than the maximum value of the instantaneous force - that's it. And the ability to shoot at large horizontal angles to the helicopter's course.
                  1. KERMET
                    KERMET 9 June 2022 15: 51
                    +2
                    Considering the worst accuracy characteristics of both the 2A72 itself and the turntable not in the center of mass, this is not the best solution
                    1. 3danimal
                      3danimal 9 June 2022 15: 59
                      -2
                      BTR-82a lacks 72 matches request
                      At mega-range, a la Black Shark, sniping from a cannon is not required (as in that movie, this is impossible).
                      Cover with a burst of Auto, an infantry group (especially the calculation of MANPADS) - that's it.
                      Bushmaster-2 is a multiple of the accuracy of the M230 (2A42 too, by the way). And the cannon on Apache is located not in the center of mass. But the network is full of videos confirming the exceptional convenience and effectiveness of such a turret.
                      The main thing is that replacing 2A42 with 2A72 significantly solves the problem of helicopter buildup, the length of the aiming burst.
                      1. KERMET
                        KERMET 9 June 2022 17: 56
                        0
                        For your money - any of your whims, for example, the Ka-52 option to participate in the Korean competition

                        Everything that many dream of is here - both a tandem arrangement and a swivel gun. It all depends on the requirements of the military
                      2. 3danimal
                        3danimal 9 June 2022 18: 50
                        -1
                        Here it is, the Ka-52 of the ideal layout good
                        Having the opportunity to advise retrospectively, I would leave Mil with an attack helicopter, Kamov with naval and light-medium Ka-60s. To avoid wasting resources.
                        For the Ka-50, among other things, it was ambitious to replace the co-pilot with a computer (in a country that is not a leader in microelectronics and does not have the ability to purchase large quantities of imported), which initially had little chance of success.
                        In the 80s, IMHO, there was an option to install a modified GSh-301 in the turret with a 2-4 times reduced rate of fire that way (similar to the Eurocopter Tiger and the Giat-30 modification on it). Unification with fighters in terms of ammunition, gut.
  4. Konnick
    Konnick 8 June 2022 05: 56
    0
    why do our VKS need two models of attack helicopters that perform essentially identical functions

    Exactly, why?
    The cost of one or the other for a billion rubles, in influencing the course of hostilities is less than a quadrocopter for a hundred thousand rubles.
    In the early 70s, when the first attack helicopters were created, there were no MANPADS systems.
    Currently, the development of air defense systems and saturation with portable air defense systems, especially now it has manifested itself, there is no ability to inflict acceptable damage on the enemy. Especially "touches" the new tactics of launching NURSs from a nose-up in the direction of the enemy a couple of kilometers before the front line.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 05: 59
      +4
      Quote: Konnick
      The cost of one or the other for a billion rubles, in influencing the course of hostilities is less than a quadrocopter for a hundred thousand rubles.

      Is this such nonsense? A landing force was thrown out near Kyiv (not the Ka-52, of course) and quadrocopters covered it? Are the columns now covered by quadrocopters?
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 8 June 2022 06: 13
        +4
        Is this such nonsense? A landing force was thrown out near Kyiv (not the Ka-52, of course) and quadrocopters covered it?

        Brad was exactly in the landing near Kyiv.
        Turning to the history of the Second World War, remember how the landing was presented to Novorossiysk on Malaya Zemlya. There were heroic people, no doubt, but to send 75 fighters there, who spent 225 days in the trenches under continuous artillery fire, and leave 25 dead and drowned there, without affecting the liberation of Novorossiysk in any way? There was no common sense. So the month of sitting in Gostomel only allowed the gunners from the Armed Forces of Ukraine to practice shooting at live targets. And the helicopters flew in and flew away, and did not counteract the shelling in any way. Who were they hiding from? But there were no quadrocopters for visual reconnaissance.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 06: 28
          -3
          Quote: Konnick
          Brad was exactly in the landing near Kyiv.
          Those. do you support the withdrawal of troops from there?
          Quote: Konnick
          Turning to the history of the Second World War, remember how the landing was presented to Novorossiysk on Malaya Zemlya. There were heroic people, no doubt, but to send 75 fighters there, who spent 225 days in the trenches under continuous artillery fire, and leave 25 dead and drowned there, without affecting the liberation of Novorossiysk in any way? There was no common sense.
          No comment.
          Quote: Konnick
          So the month of sitting in Gostomel only allowed the gunners from the Armed Forces of Ukraine to practice shooting at live targets.
          Certainly with impunity.
          Quote: Konnick
          And the helicopters flew in and flew away, and did not counteract the shelling in any way. Who were they hiding from?
          The ground 4th Operational Brigade named after the Hero of Ukraine Sergeant Serhiy Mikhalchuk (4th Armored Forces, military unit 3018). was ground only by the landing forces, is it not otherwise?

          Quote: Konnick
          But there were no quadrocopters for visual reconnaissance.
          This somewhat reduced efficiency and somewhat increased losses, but no more. And close to this stupidity is not:
          Quote: Konnick
          The cost of one or the other for a billion rubles, in influencing the course of hostilities is less than a quadrocopter for a hundred thousand rubles.
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 8 June 2022 06: 48
            +4
            Those. do you support the withdrawal of troops from there?

            Of course people were saved. There was no point in this bridgehead.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 06: 56
              0
              Quote: Konnick
              Of course people were saved. There was no point in this bridgehead.

              The level of awareness is amazing. What foothold? Within a few days, the main forces made their way to the landing force. And so it is with everything...
            2. 3danimal
              3danimal 9 June 2022 13: 52
              0

              But what about the tradition of not counting losses? The result is always more important than the people. Well, they would have put some more there, but during the Second World War it was even worse.
              We have over a million security guards, we have human resources soldier
        2. good
          good 9 June 2022 00: 04
          +1
          It would be better if they kept silent about Malaya Zemlya, the bridgehead pulled back a serious grouping that could not do anything with this bridgehead, and held out for so long because it was reliably covered by artillery from the other side and was supplied by water.
          The throw of the XNUMXth grouping on Kyiv pulled off a huge mass of troops from the Donbass and the Sea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbAzov, which had already been squeezed out forever. Near Kyiv and along the way, the Armed Forces of Ukraine were seriously battered and staged a serious kipish throughout Ukraine.
          You need to look wider.
          1. max702
            max702 14 June 2022 13: 15
            0
            Quote: d0bry
            You need to look wider.

            1351 who died in the first month of the NWO is much wider ...
    2. faiver
      faiver 8 June 2022 06: 24
      +12
      In the early 70s, when the first attack helicopters were created, there were no MANPADS systems.
      - sorry, but the Strela-1 MANPADS was put into service in the late 60s ...
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 8 June 2022 07: 04
        -5
        sorry, but the Strela-1 MANPADS was put into service in the late 60s ...

        They did not upset the US helicopter pilots.
        1. faiver
          faiver 8 June 2022 07: 24
          0
          and what? the fact that there is
        2. novel66
          novel66 8 June 2022 09: 29
          0
          They did not upset the US helicopter pilots.

          And in vain!
        3. Duncan
          Duncan 8 June 2022 15: 55
          +8
          even more upset. The withdrawal from Vietnam is most likely connected with them.
          "According to American sources, over the last three months of 1974, 23% of the number of launches led to the loss of South Vietnamese Air Force aircraft (the number of hits was 33%). In the next three months, 25 MANPADS launches were recorded, and 18 of them hit the target, out of 18, only 4 wrecked aircraft were able to return to the airfield (i.e., efficiency increased to 56%)
      2. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 07: 05
        +4
        Quote: faiver
        - sorry, but the Strela-1 MANPADS was put into service in the late 60s ...

        Like Red Eye, but who cares except us, definitely not Nikolai. laughing
    3. RaptorF22A2
      RaptorF22A2 8 June 2022 09: 23
      +1
      Wow, the voice of reason among the hats fellow
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 11: 38
        -1
        Quote: RaptorF22А2
        Wow, the voice of reason among the hats

        The fact that he is your like-minded person does not speak of reason at all. laughing
    4. KERMET
      KERMET 8 June 2022 14: 45
      0
      This "new" tactic will soon be a hundred years old
    5. 3danimal
      3danimal 8 June 2022 19: 29
      0
      Especially "touches" the new tactics of launching NURSs from a nose-up in the direction of the enemy a couple of kilometers before the front line.

      What genius came up with this? An attempt to replace the MLRS, with the launch of missiles "about there"? request
      1. vadivm59
        vadivm59 31 July 2022 11: 56
        0
        I also asked this question until I read the comment of one pilot here on VO. He flew on the SU-17M4, IBA. so, he told how they bombed with simple FABs from a roll-up. the target coordinates, route, etc. were entered into the PRNK. etc. and at a certain moment the "reset" button was pressed and held until the PRNA gave the command to separate the bombs. and that’s it. He writes that the percentage of hits was decent. It was in the 80s. I think now the PRNK is more powerful and more accurate, and there is an effect from such shooting.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 31 July 2022 16: 04
          0
          This is all from low income in terms of the WTO, I think.
          On the same Cobras, Apaches, Tigers, etc. there are laser-guided 70mm APKWS, which are modified 70mm Hydra missiles (by simply adding a control module between the warhead and the rest of the missile).
          The launch range (as well as accuracy) is comparable to ATGMs, but the price is much lower.
          An elegant and practical solution.


          1. vadivm59
            vadivm59 31 July 2022 17: 46
            0
            you can also recall the JDAM kits for free-falling bombs of the US Air Force. Well, what can we do if we are doing this through a stump deck. so they fire as best they can.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 31 July 2022 20: 08
              0
              Instead of budget kits like JDAM, we prefer to produce complex and expensive (and therefore few) CABs request
    6. abc_alex
      abc_alex 8 June 2022 23: 10
      -7
      Quote: Konnick
      Exactly, why?
      The cost of one or the other for a billion rubles, in influencing the course of hostilities is less than a quadrocopter for a hundred thousand rubles.


      Затем, что реально сделать боевой вертолёт как боевую машину, от концепции до принятия на вооружение, может только КБ Миля. КБ Камова по сути дела по воле военных повторило Ми-28, но на соосной схеме. Само по себе КБ Камова в плане разработки ударного вертолёта интеллектуально не самостоятельно. Оно не способно даже нормально завязать РЛС в оружейный комплекс. Поэтому все новинки в области ударных вертолётов будут появляться на Ми-28, а потом только навешиваться на Ка-52.
      Answered?
      1. KERMET
        KERMET 9 June 2022 18: 00
        +2
        Sometimes it's better to be silent
        1. abc_alex
          abc_alex 10 June 2022 17: 44
          0
          Quote: KERMET
          Sometimes it's better to be silent

          What blew the template? Life is so...
          1. KERMET
            KERMET 10 June 2022 18: 59
            +1
            No, it didn’t explode - it became a shame that even with such a powerful tool as the Internet, you have such poor knowledge
      2. 3danimal
        3danimal 10 June 2022 22: 58
        0
        IMHO, the Mi-28 problem is in the use of the modified Mi-24 hull, which imposed certain restrictions on the placement of systems and sensors.
        It would be better to take all the Apache solutions and implement them on the Soviet technical base, in a new (similar) fuselage.
        Sometimes "copying the B-29" is a good idea.
  5. riwas
    riwas 8 June 2022 06: 12
    +5
    Russian attack helicopters

    The future lies in the use of helicopters in conjunction with drones. They must conduct reconnaissance, including air defense systems, preventing a helicopter from falling into an ambush. The helicopter should fire missiles mainly from "closed positions", and guidance should be carried out from drones.
    1. Civil
      Civil 8 June 2022 08: 40
      +1
      Quote: riwas
      Russian attack helicopters

      The future lies in the use of helicopters in conjunction with drones. They must conduct reconnaissance, including air defense systems, preventing a helicopter from falling into an ambush. The helicopter should fire missiles mainly from "closed positions", and guidance should be carried out from drones.

      1. If only as a mobile UAV control point.
      2. Missile firing will be (already partially) implemented by mass strike UAVs.
    2. DO
      DO 8 June 2022 09: 17
      -1
      rivas, yes, of course, the integration of attack helicopters with reconnaissance UAVs should be effective.
      But it would be even better to fire missiles from an unmanned attack helicopter, which is given target designation by another helicopter, with a crew consisting of a pilot and an operator. Naturally, an advanced target designation helicopter should be in a much safer position than one or two unmanned attack helicopters.
      1. DO
        DO 8 June 2022 09: 42
        +2
        PS Perhaps, in the presence of reconnaissance drones,
        in many cases, the forward target designation helicopter for attack unmanned helicopters can be replaced by a ground control point.
    3. PROXOR
      PROXOR 8 June 2022 13: 50
      -1
      The future belongs to the combat Internet. When each unit is independent of a defined other unit. The drone found the target keeps light. The command post was given the task of destruction. The system gave possible means of destruction. Let's assume KA-52 with ATGM. The UAV has issued a PIN code and keeps the target in the light. Vert entered the PIN code into the bios, gave it a start and left. Here is the future.
      In addition to the helicopter, artillery with corrected projectiles and other weapons can also be used.
    4. abc_alex
      abc_alex 8 June 2022 23: 11
      0
      Undoubtedly. And in any case, the Mi-28N already has a data exchange channel with the UAV.
      1. Alexander Vorontsov
        9 June 2022 00: 13
        +2
        Quote: abc_alex
        Undoubtedly. And in any case, the Mi-28N already has a data exchange channel with the UAV.

        Cool .... falling with a torn tail and not being able to eject ... the crew will exchange data with the UAV ....

        It is obvious that it is constructively a million times easier to implement an electronic stray than to realize the advantages of a catapult and the absence of a beam.
        1. abc_alex
          abc_alex 10 June 2022 17: 54
          -1
          Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
          Cool .... falling with a torn tail and not being able to eject ... the crew will exchange data with the UAV ....


          Look at the photo of KA-52 shot down by Ukrainians in Gostomel. And if the veil of delight does not cover your eyes, you will see that the car has received from MANPADS into a weapons pylon. Apparently it was cool to fall from a height with a whole tail and in an armored capsule having received a pylon MANPADS, right? :)
          1. JD1979
            JD1979 13 June 2022 16: 50
            0
            An adherent of the mi-28 sect can enlighten us poor ones, can the turntable fall from hitting the pylon?))) It is thought to us poor that they fall from damage not to attachments, but primarily to power units) and the pylon is such a cosmetic defect. And yet, how did it happen that your unloved competitors were able to put KAZ on 52k, on super-duper 28 it flies without it?)) Was there not enough space in the tail?)
  6. Konnick
    Konnick 8 June 2022 06: 42
    -7
    Many mistakes are being made, and so it was with the IL-2 booking. They made a clumsy air tank that required fighter cover. In addition, this attack aircraft could not dive, due to overweight, in order to provide its aimed fire. The attack on the front of the enemy caused a powerful opposition to anti-aircraft fire, which the armor did not save. Only by the 44th year they abandoned such tactics and switched to storming communications, and not trenches, echelons, not stations.
    At the same time, the pilots and aviation authorities asked to resume the production of the Polikarpov I-153 biplane, the survival rate of which was two times better than the Il-2. Highly maneuverable to such an extent that the Messerschmites could not cope with it, the ability to perform a steep dive, the ability to accurately hit with rockets - all this made this percale biplane a very effective universal attack fighter, of course, the speed was low for a fighter to catch up with bombers, but in air he could show himself in battle with enemy fighters. Armor is not always good.
    1. Monar
      Monar 8 June 2022 07: 13
      +7
      This is to the fact that the front-line attack aircraft then had to twist the loops at the I-16 level. Dive like Yu-87. Well, how to carry bombs B-29?
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 8 June 2022 07: 51
        -4
        This is to the fact that the front-line attack aircraft then had to twist the loops at the I-16 level.

        This is to the fact that it does not need cover by fighters. The seagull twisted the loops near the ground so that the Messers could not knock it down in any way. This fighter-bomber concept is still in operation today. The Yu-87 was discontinued in 43, and the production of the Focke-Wulf-190 fighter-bomber was increased. It was the "universal soldier".
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 8 June 2022 21: 00
          0
          The seagull twisted the loops near the ground so that the Messers could not knock it down in any way.
          Yep, they couldn't. And they didn't crash? And all the losses of the I-153 were exclusively from FOR?
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 11 June 2022 13: 39
            0
            BF-109f2 / 4 did not spin and drink with the "Seagull", but used a tactic called by the Americans "boom & zoom": dive from a height, attack and go up (due to the accumulated energy). It is repeated until the result.
            The ammunition was over - they flew to the base, Chaika could not catch up.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 8 June 2022 11: 50
        +4
        Quote: Monar
        Dive like Yu-87. Well, how to carry bombs B-29?

        В Wishlist of the military theories, yes. smile
        In practice, I would like "Thunder" or "Skyrader". But here two big problems appear, reducing these good wishes to zero for the USSR. The first is the engine. The second is the concept of interaction with the infantry and the technical means of its implementation. Simply put, you need to somehow wean the infantry commanders from the idea that cover is when aviation hangs 24/7 right over the heads of the infantry and teach them to "work on call." And for this you need to teach them to measure the Wishlist with reality ... that is, to call in air support only for targets that cannot be hit by regular and attached fire weapons, and also to provide infantry with aircraft controllers with reliable communications.
    2. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 07: 16
      +4
      Quote: Konnick
      In addition, this attack aircraft could not dive, due to overweight, in order to provide its aimed fire.

      Brad is the same.
      like this
      Quote: Konnick
      that booking didn't help.

      and it
      Quote: Konnick
      Only by the 44th year did they abandon such tactics
      Refusal to attack the leading edge is nonsense, not even in a square, but in a cube!
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 8 June 2022 07: 56
        -4
        Refusal to attack the leading edge is nonsense, not even in a square, but in a cube!

        Until 1944, they thought so, but firing machine guns at dug-in infantry and a stuffed front edge with small-caliber ZSU is a big thing ... (VO censorship). They left the front line of artillery, and they themselves flew to storm the troops on the march, supply columns and echelons on the way.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 09: 00
          +2
          Throw away your book about IL-2 where it is written about machine guns and the refusal to attack the front edge.
          Quote: Konnick
          but to fire machine guns at the dug-in infantry and the stuffed front edge with small-caliber ZSU ...
          .... They left the leading edge of the artillery, and they themselves flew to storm the troops on the march, supply columns and echelons on the way.




          Only in 1944, a number of attack aircraft units switched to the “all at once” tactics, when the Il-2 group, unexpectedly appearing over enemy positions, simultaneously dropped on him all bombs and rs.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 8 June 2022 11: 41
      +2
      Quote: Konnick
      Many mistakes are being made, and so it was with the IL-2 booking. They made a clumsy air tank that required fighter cover.

      It's just that the IL-2 is the very perfect model that appears when the situation has changed so much that the original concept has become obsolete. So to speak, the plane of the last war. For the 30s, the IL-2, which was not affected by the main army means of short-range air defense (which were then machine guns), would have been a wunderwaffe. But alas, he had to work in the 40s, when the infantry began to massively acquire not only 20-mm, but also 37-mm MZA.
    4. PROXOR
      PROXOR 8 June 2022 13: 55
      +3
      You write nonsense! It was never planned to fight on the IL-2 as a fighter. This is a stormtrooper. And I will be right to say the BEST that everyone had.
      No one imagined that Air supremacy would have to be won in such a difficult way. But in terms of attack on the ground, not a single fighter could stand nearby in terms of survivability and power. The golden year for IL is 1944 Operation Bagration. Our air armies compensated for 40 messers on the Belorussian balcony without any problems. And in 1944, the Germans more than grabbed what ours received in 1941. Attack aircraft mowed down armored vehicles, attacked artillery in closed positions, columns on roads and railway trains.
    5. 3danimal
      3danimal 10 June 2022 23: 04
      +1
      In the simulator of the same name, Ilys clicked easily in a German company (passing - that's all): the best tactic was diving and firing at a wooden wing. After the armored engine and cabin with one wing could fly freely towards the ground.
      In history, there were rather random episodes of fighters shot down by IL, often the fault was the greed of enemy pilots, who sought to fill more “frags” in the excitement of battle.
  7. ramzay21
    ramzay21 8 June 2022 06: 46
    +7
    The author did not make out the shortcomings of the coaxial scheme of the Ka-52, but according to the results of the special operation, the Ka-52 looks preferable to the Mi-28.
    The author is right that one main attack helicopter should be left in the troops, and getting rid of diversity, this will reduce the cost of production, simplify the training of both flight and technical personnel, and greatly simplify the supply. Keeping a zoo of Ka-52, Mi-28, Mi-35 and Mi-24 is very stupid, especially in the face of a lack of funds.
    1. Shopping Mall
      Shopping Mall 8 June 2022 07: 27
      -1
      Quote: ramzay21
      ... The author is right that one main attack helicopter should be left in the troops, and getting rid of diversity, this will reduce the cost of production, simplify the training of both flight and technical personnel, and greatly simplify the supply. Keeping a zoo of Ka-52, Mi-28, Mi-35 and Mi-24 is very stupid, especially in conditions of lack of funds.


      There is nothing of the kind in this. In the same USA, there is an Apache in the Armed Forces and a Cobra in the Navy, and even other helicopters of various modifications in all structures of the Armed Forces - an endless sea, plus convertiplanes.

      Mi-28, Mi-35 and Mi-24, and Mi-8, are similar in maintenance and piloting, they even have the same nodes.

      All machines have unified engines, possibly partially gearboxes.

      The presence of two competing projects gives rise to healthy competition, and it is not always possible to choose the unambiguously best car, one has some advantages and disadvantages, the other has others. It is best to simply disperse them by region, for example, in the west - one type, in the east - another.
      1. ramzay21
        ramzay21 8 June 2022 09: 04
        +10
        There is nothing of the kind in this. In the same USA, there is an Apache in the Armed Forces and a Cobra in the Navy, and even other helicopters of various modifications in all structures of the Armed Forces - an endless sea, plus convertiplanes.

        In the US Army, of attack helicopters, there is only Apache, and in the armies of all countries that think with their heads and count money, there is also only one attack helicopter.
        A variety of brands of helicopters performing strike functions is typical for underdeveloped countries.
        The Mi-28 pilot cannot fly the Ka-52 without retraining, and the Mi-35 too. And the technical staff must be retrained and trained for different types of helicopters.
        Training and retraining costs money and takes time and the availability of retraining places.
        The presence of two competing projects generates healthy competition,

        All this is good at the stage of development and testing, but one machine should go into the series that meets the requirements as much as possible, and you can also choose one helicopter out of two. In this case, the only question is the powerful lobbying of the Mi-28.
        It is best to simply disperse them by region, for example, in the west - one type, in the east - another.

        And what happens if, like now, experienced pilots are transferred to the West, and inexperienced pilots from the West are transferred to the East, for replacement?
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 8 June 2022 12: 11
        +7
        Quote: AVM
        In the same USA there is an Apache in the Armed Forces and a Cobra in the Navy

        Not so simple ©.
        "Cobra" in the ILC did not remain from a good life. The Marines wanted the Apache and even tested it successfully from the deck. But everything rested on the budget - the rogue from the ILC traditionally could not afford a normal helicopter. And they continued to buy Cobras, Hueys, old Abrams models and Vietnam-era PBTRs (proudly renamed assault vehicles). smile
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 10 June 2022 23: 12
          +1
          It happened: about the KMP, their army jokes that this is the “youngest son” (but angry and stubborn), wears out after the elder. And eats wax crayons smile

        2. 3danimal
          3danimal 10 June 2022 23: 24
          0
          Cobra "in the ILC did not remain from a good life.

          The latest modifications of the AH-1z turned out to be quite worthy: electronics comparable to the AH-64D, the ability to use the entire range of weapons in the same quantity. Two powerful engines with exhaust shielding, main rotor with 4 composite blades, X-shaped low-noise tail rotor, helmet-mounted targeting system, good maneuverability.
          And all this for the price of 1 / 2-2 / 3 of the cost of "Apache-D"

    2. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 8 June 2022 08: 19
      +1
      “according to the results of the special operation, the Ka-52 looks preferable to the Mi-28” - I suspect that even the military does not yet have an unequivocal conclusion on this issue, because the hostilities last only three months. As for a simple layman, like you and me, he generally has practically no information other than the personnel provided by the Moscow Region.
    3. EvilLion
      EvilLion 8 June 2022 09: 25
      0
      The pacifier has only one drawback, it costs more, which is uncritical for a combat helicopter with expensive equipment, gives extra. resistance, i.e., operation in flights in a straight line is also more expensive, which is why the Ka-60 is not coaxial.

      There will be no reduction in price, because the Mi-24s were built back in the USSR, they are already dying off, and when the Mi-28N went into production, there was where to produce it, and who lived in the 90s knows what was there in Arsenyev. Now, for unification, it will be necessary at one of the factories to produce. changing the process is not cheap either.

      So either instead of the Mi-28 they will do something else, or just follow. generation.
      1. arkadiyssk
        arkadiyssk 8 June 2022 11: 00
        -3
        Somehow people pass by the "feature" of the Ka-52 and the pacifier itself - some kind of directly abnormal level of vibrations. A bunch of videos of pilots in the cockpit, where they bounce 10 cm in flight. I don’t know how it affects combat use, but it’s most likely not fun to drive.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 8 June 2022 11: 10
          +5
          Where are the vibrations from? Or maybe the entire transmission of the classical scheme with its power take-off to the tail rotor will not generate vibration?
    4. PROXOR
      PROXOR 8 June 2022 14: 02
      0
      Definitely suggests a car that will take all the best from the Ka-52 and Mi-28. You can see here the vert of a clearly coaxial scheme, with the possibility of using a third pusher propeller to increase speed, like the Sikorsky S-97 Raider amers. The location of the saw and the arrow as on the Mi-28. The heaviest is the over-hulled coaxial radar and guided weapons of the 3rd generation (fired and forgot). And if the first drawback can be compensated for by external light from the UAV. Then with the second work, mother do not grieve. And the most important thing is the component base.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 11 June 2022 21: 16
        -1
        S-97 is too cool, complicated and expensive.
        Taiwan will supply us with chips with a frequency of up to 25 MHz. At the turn of the 70-80s, when Apache and Mi-28, Ka-50 were created, one could only dream of such in military equipment.
        1. PROXOR
          PROXOR 13 June 2022 12: 49
          0
          S97 does not carry anything super-impossible for our pilots. The most difficult thing is the blades, which will not break at an air flow speed of about 700-800 km / h. I’ll make a reservation right away, this is not the speed of the aircraft, but the speed of the air flow when the blade moves forward.
          Quote: 3danimal
          Taiwan will supply us with chips with a frequency of up to 25 MHz.

          Then the grandmother said in two. I will now, there is no havtra.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 13 June 2022 15: 41
            0
            Then the grandmother said in two. I will now, there is no havtra.

            Then you have to put the filling, as on the Mi-24, or Mi-28A. It works without any frills. But it will be cheaper.
            Officials promise in 10 years to start producing processors of the Intel level of the early 00s, we'll see.
            nothing is super-impossible for our pilots. The most difficult thing is the blades, which will not break at the speed of the air flow.

            Stop. What scheme will it be? Like Ryder or like Cheyenne?
            Will it be possible to provide sufficient reliability?
            The rider, judging by the video, will be modular, with the prospect of replacing the Apache and Blackhawk, with maximum unification.
            Should this also be implemented?
            1. PROXOR
              PROXOR 14 June 2022 11: 28
              0
              Just like the S-97 Sikorski. Two lifting screws and one pushing screw.
    5. abc_alex
      abc_alex 8 June 2022 23: 14
      -3
      Quote: ramzay21
      The author is right that one main attack helicopter should be left in the troops, and getting rid of diversity, this will reduce the cost of production, simplify the training of both flight and technical personnel, and greatly simplify the supply. Keeping a zoo of Ka-52, Mi-28, Mi-35 and Mi-24 is very stupid, especially in the face of a lack of funds.



      In theory, yes. In practice, this will either lead to a loss of momentum in equipping the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation with attack helicopters, or to the liquidation of the Kamov Design Bureau. Believe me, people make decisions no stupider than you and me.
  8. Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 8 June 2022 07: 11
    -2
    The most important questions are how much the Ka-52 would cost if they were produced twice as many (I suspect not cheaper) and in the degree of unification of the same type of equipment for two machines.
    1. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 8 June 2022 08: 14
      +8
      “I suspect that it is not cheaper” - you are mistaken, an increase in the series always reduces the cost of production. When doubling the series, the price decreases by about 20 - 30%. (I might be wrong, as I'm writing from memory.)
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 8 June 2022 08: 47
        -5
        increasing the series always reduces the cost of production.

        Not in the case of a slipway assembly. The cost of components will not change.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 09: 04
          +4
          Quote: Konnick
          The cost of components will not change.

          Have you heard anything about the cost of equipment, and even more so the slipway? Do you understand that the smaller the series of "components" the more expensive these "components" are ?! Equipment for at least one set, at least for 1100, will cost the same.
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 8 June 2022 10: 15
            -2
            Have you heard anything about the cost of equipment, and even more so the slipway? Do you understand that the smaller the series of "components" the more expensive these "components" are ?! Equipment for at least one set, at least for 1100, will cost the same.

            Can you give an example of price reduction. Moreover, the Ka-52 and Mi-28 are mass-produced and have no competitors, since they are produced by the same Russian Helicopters holding, a Russian helicopter manufacturing holding that unites most of the country's helicopter manufacturing enterprises. JSC Russian Helicopters (the holding company) is a subsidiary of the Rostec State Corporation. Moreover, 12,5% ​​of the shares of the holding "Helicopters of Russia" (in the amount of about 30 billion rubles or about 480 million dollars) belongs to the holding Mubadala Investment Company [from the United Arab Emirates.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 8 June 2022 10: 45
              0
              Quote: Konnick
              Can you give an example of price reduction.

              You don’t understand the difference between cost and price, but I have to give you some examples. If you don't understand, then please.
              The development of the Apache cost 430 million for 10 vehicles (43 million pieces), and the early serial cost 14,5 million, despite the fact that a plant was specially built for it. And the fact that you brought a bunch of names is the cost of capitalism.
        2. Sergey Valov
          Sergey Valov 8 June 2022 09: 36
          -1
          “Not in the case of a slipway assembly” - absolutely in any case, this is an axiom.
          “The cost of components will not change” - the cost of components will decrease in the same proportion, because their output will also increase. wink . Only the cost of such things as metal, paint, nuts, bolts, rivets, etc. will remain stable; they are already produced in millions of pieces and tons.
        3. AlexHafele
          AlexHafele 8 June 2022 09: 51
          +3
          Quote: Konnick
          Not in the case of a slipway assembly. The cost of components will not change.

          There are variable costs and there are fixed costs.
          Variables depend on output, for example, it takes 1 wheels to assemble 4 car. 2 cars 8. Etc.
          And there are permanent ones. They do not depend on how many cars you collect. For example, room maintenance.
          There is a good example in the printing house, when you order offset printing, a layout is made. Its cost is fixed. It does not matter whether you print 100 copies or 1000. But in the first case, the cost of an expensive layout is spread over 100 copies, and in the second, by 1000.

          Probably the same in production. Commissioning works...
        4. Dedok
          Dedok 8 June 2022 11: 19
          0
          Quote: Konnick
          Not in case of stack assembly


          Is there a conveyor somewhere?
          everything is going on the stocks
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 8 June 2022 12: 01
            -3
            Is there a conveyor somewhere?
            everything is going on the stocks

            What am I talking about? What can be a reduction in the cost of serialization? The technology for the production of avionics, gas turbine engines, weapons will not change, which means that the cost will remain
      2. abc_alex
        abc_alex 8 June 2022 23: 16
        0
        Quote: Sergey Valov
        “I suspect that it is not cheaper” - you are mistaken, an increase in the series always reduces the cost of production. When doubling the series, the price decreases by about 20 - 30%. (I might be wrong, as I'm writing from memory.)


        Where are you and what did you read about? There is no reduction in price by 20, and even more so by 30%, and cannot be. Especially in our weapon pricing system, which inherits the Soviet approach (cost + margin). 12-13% - maybe. And that is unlikely.
        1. Sergey Valov
          Sergey Valov 9 June 2022 09: 59
          0
          “Where are you and what did you read about?” - I have not read it anywhere. This was taught to me at MATI, and then practice in the aviation industry. Aircraft production is my specialty.
          “Especially in our gun pricing system,” have you ever heard of lowering labor rates? But this is just one of many ways to reduce the cost of production. In the process of mass production, work is constantly being done to improve production technology, new, more productive equipment is being introduced, minor design improvements are being made to facilitate production, etc. All this is done by the design and technological services of the plants.
          1. abc_alex
            abc_alex 10 June 2022 17: 51
            0
            Quote: Sergey Valov
            “Where are you and what did you read about?” - I have not read it anywhere. This was taught to me at MATI, and then practice in the aviation industry. Aircraft production is my specialty.
            “Especially in our gun pricing system,” have you ever heard of lowering labor rates? But this is just one of many ways to reduce the cost of production. In the process of mass production, work is constantly being done to improve production technology, new, more productive equipment is being introduced, minor design improvements are being made to facilitate production, etc. All this is done by the design and technological services of the plants.


            And it reduces himselfcost by 30%? Are you seriously? I would also understand if you talk about lowering the price compared to pilot production. But in a series? For a third? Do components and assemblies received from subcontractors also become a third cheaper? Or are you talking specifically about the assembly process?
            1. Sergey Valov
              Sergey Valov 10 June 2022 20: 53
              0
              "Are you seriously?" - Absolutely seriously, read the specialized literature.
              Pilot production is a separate song, it is often organized not at mass-produced factories and has its own specifics, I have not come across it. But the launch of the MiG-29 series was carried out before my eyes, and I saw enough of this process and observed some miracles personally.
              “Do components and assemblies received from subcontractors also become a third cheaper?” - of course, they are getting cheaper, because their output is also increasing.
              With regard to assembly production, the cost is reduced there due to the increase in the skills of workers, lower prices, the introduction of more productive technical processes, and improved labor organization.
  9. tlauicol
    tlauicol 8 June 2022 07: 35
    -2
    1. Pzrk will not tear off the KA-52's tail? Not funny. Look at direct hits and cockpit destruction, for example.
    2. Catapult is good
    3. Not having a shield, talking about a long sword? Which is not. Good concept. Holes 5.45 characterize it well
    4. The coaxial design is so good that the Ka52 cannot be squeezed into the BOD. They did not even climb into the Mistral, they had to redo the hangar. The tail is shorter, yes, but the hangar should be higher. And these are extra tons for the ship, deterioration in stability, radio visibility, an increase in displacement, to compensate for stability, etc. As a result, instead of two helicopters for 3000-4000 tons, there is one KA 27 on board, and still not a single KA 52
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 8 June 2022 09: 28
      +11
      In fact, the ship is made to fit the dimensions of a helicopter, the Mistral is made to fit French Navy helicopters. The deck Ka-52 for the BOD is just nonsense, the Ka-27 is needed there.
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 8 June 2022 12: 32
        -1
        Well, what kind of ship are we making for nonsense? Point 4 is still missing
        1. KERMET
          KERMET 8 June 2022 14: 52
          0
          Item 3 is also in milk
  10. B-15
    B-15 8 June 2022 07: 55
    -1
    I did not find a single mention of the incomparable plus of the MI-28 - the presence of a radar on the top of the sleeve. This allows you to covertly search for targets and suddenly attack them from an ambush.
    But still, reports on the use of the KA-52 bring satisfaction. Over the years, he was brought to mind.
    The only thing is that the use of intelligent pilot helmets with target designations, etc. is not explicitly mentioned anywhere. Interestingly, we were able to bring them to mind. After all, it was more than 30 years.
    1. Genry
      Genry 8 June 2022 10: 38
      0
      Quote: B-15
      I did not find a single mention of the incomparable plus of the MI-28 - the presence of a radar on the top of the sleeve. This allows you to covertly search for targets and suddenly attack them from an ambush.

      This is not a plus but a minus. The characteristics are weak and the complication of the helical column .....
      The UAV allows for precisely reconnaissance and search for targets, for a long time and over a larger area. And the radar of the Ka-52, in a large nose compartment, proved to be a better solution.
    2. Dedok
      Dedok 8 June 2022 11: 21
      0
      Quote: B-15
      I did not find a single mention of the incomparable plus of the MI-28 - the presence of a radar on the top of the sleeve.

      secretly - it's like - audible for kilometers, if there is no green light
    3. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 8 June 2022 21: 21
      0
      As the CBO showed, this controversial concept is practically dead. A hanging helicopter immediately turns into a "sitting duck" and becomes vulnerable to anti-tank systems and, probably, to special mines and other ammunition.
  11. Chikua
    Chikua 8 June 2022 08: 01
    +2
    On the other hand, the coaxial scheme makes the helicopter very stable and maneuverable in hover modes.
  12. Dimon-SPG
    Dimon-SPG 8 June 2022 08: 22
    +8
    Judging by the videos, that turntables and rooks are engaged in the disposal of ammunition, throwing them from a pitch into the white light like a pretty penny, and a pair of dill with MANPADS is considered an irresistibly powerful air defense. The very concept of battlefield aviation is bursting at the seams.
    1. Genry
      Genry 8 June 2022 10: 53
      +2
      Quote: Dimon-SPG
      that the turntables that the rooks are engaged in the disposal of ammunition, scattering them from a pitch into the white light like a pretty penny

      According to your MLRS, from several times a greater distance, they don’t shoot ....?
      Assault aviation is an urgent delivery and a more accurate salvo!
      Quote: Dimon-SPG
      and a pair of dill with MANPADS is considered an irresistibly powerful air defense

      Ka-52 has countermeasure systems not only for MANPADS ....
      Quote: Dimon-SPG
      The very concept of battlefield aviation is bursting at the seams.

      The destruction of armored vehicles is, in your opinion, not aviation should do, especially during a breakthrough?
      And should mobile units (rapid response) be chased by equipment with the same speed characteristics? And when will she catch up with them?
    2. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 8 June 2022 21: 22
      0
      All Su-34s were unlikely to be shot down by MANPADS.
  13. wlkw
    wlkw 8 June 2022 08: 29
    +3
    Empty article
  14. The comment was deleted.
  15. acetophenone
    acetophenone 8 June 2022 10: 01
    +4
    You can visually compare the thickness of the “booking” of doors and cockpit glazing with similar parameters of the Mi-28
    By photo? Didn't read further.
  16. Boratsagdiev
    Boratsagdiev 8 June 2022 11: 13
    0
    1. with a close explosion and the spacecraft will not be healthy (and more).
    2.
    the crew is essentially doomed
    - not the essence and non-fact.
    3.
    fail to do so
    ,
    A prime example
    - it speaks about something else, or what should have worked and not as it should (only).
    4
    Having relied on such weapons systems, the United States and other NATO countries abandoned heavy armor for their attack helicopters.
    - and more than once they regretted and used our equipment where they could (and they did not finish their new super-duper helicopter, not only because of the price).
    5. catapult and rockets are hung on any model, there was simply no desire from the designers or the customer.
    etc.
  17. Genry
    Genry 8 June 2022 11: 18
    0
    The Ka-52 has only one obvious drawback - there is no option with a 23mm swivel gun, which is very necessary for a quick response to side attacks, i.e. to cover the leader or group.
    1. KERMET
      KERMET 9 June 2022 18: 06
      0
      At one time, for the Turkish and Korean competition, the Kamovites had already developed options with a swivel gun, although the French 20-mm GIAT was installed there on demand
    2. eskulap
      eskulap 10 July 2022 06: 30
      0
      Why turn, if ka 52 can turn the carcass and at the same time continue flying in the same direction
  18. Proctologist
    Proctologist 8 June 2022 11: 44
    +2
    The article would be interesting (and I hope there will be such an article!), if instead of theoretical reasoning there was an analysis of known facts - for example, photos and videos of downed and damaged, but not downed, helicopters. The same mistake of a survivor in modern conditions.


    And arguing logically (theoretically) there is always a risk of missing an unaccounted factor.
    1. AlexHafele
      AlexHafele 8 June 2022 11: 51
      +1
      Quote: Proctologist
      if instead of theoretical reasoning there was an analysis of known facts - for example, photos and videos of downed and damaged, but not downed, helicopters. The same mistake of a survivor in modern conditions.

      Do you consider the video with the MANPADS hit in the tail a survivor's mistake?
      1. Proctologist
        Proctologist 8 June 2022 12: 29
        0
        it is because of the presence of this single video that I wrote my comment. Great example! It would not be the only analysis of actual hits - the price would not have been an article.

        For example, the thought of booking a cabin as protection against outdated DShK threats seems logical to me. But has it been proven in practice?
  19. 3danimal
    3danimal 8 June 2022 15: 08
    0
    You can visually compare the thickness of the “booking” of doors and cockpit glazing with similar parameters of the Mi-28

    In "Apache" they focused on the best (compared to the Mi-28 and Ka-52 visibility)



    IMHO, the location of the pilots side by side worsens the situational awareness of each, and when it enters the cockpit, it makes it possible to disable both at once.
    1. KERMET
      KERMET 8 June 2022 18: 26
      0
      But the work of the crew in pairs and better awareness of the condition of the partner are more effective.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 8 June 2022 19: 34
        -3
        But the work of the crew in pairs is more effective

        Who compared? Do you remember that with a tandem cockpit, pilots have no problems with negotiations?
        better awareness of partner's condition

        Pat him on the shoulder, wipe away his tears, give him a chocolate bar?
        Who will do this in a combat helicopter in a war if a projectile, say, a ZU-23 or a Starstreak dart, hits the cockpit?
        Survival is above all.
        And a great review of each of the pilots to boot.
        World experience confirms the optimality of the tandem cab.
        1. KERMET
          KERMET 8 June 2022 20: 02
          +2
          Initially, when designing the combat training Ka-50, the Kamovites proceeded from the tandem placement of the crew. Later, Mikheev, studying reports on the combat use of "crocodiles" in Afghanistan, noted that in 14 cases the death of the machine was caused by the operator's lack of information about the injury or death of the pilot. Sitting in the front cockpit, the operator, although he had rudimentary helicopter controls, simply did not have time to take over control. And everything was decided by seconds.
          By that time, the in-line arrangement had already been used on shipborne helicopters. The same Mi-8 used as an assault also showed better crew interaction than in the Mi-24.
          This is an approximate quote from a book about the creation of the Ka-50
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 8 June 2022 20: 12
            -4
            Afghanistan noted that in 14 cases the death of the machine was caused by the lack of information of the operator about the injury or death of the pilot.

            It was 40 years ago, when there were no modern sensors (including those on the state of health), means of communication, and automation of control.
            By that time, the in-line arrangement had already been used on shipborne helicopters.

            An anti-submarine helicopter is not at all a land attack helicopter. MZA does not shoot at them over the battlefield.
            People tend to make mistakes, I will assume that the experience of creating only sea and transport helicopters (with a side-by-side cabin) previously played a rather negative role in choosing Mikheev. Which did NOT consider the consequences of a 23mm projectile getting into such a cabin.
            1. KERMET
              KERMET 8 June 2022 20: 45
              0
              It was 40 years ago that the discussed helicopters began their lives, we fly on that.
              I'm just explaining why certain decisions were made.
              Did you write above at the choice of Mikheev? It's just that both design bureaus have helicopters with pilots positioned side by side smile
              And the same Ka-52 was born from a single Ka-50, with which he was supposed to fly as a commander of a group of attack (single) helicopters
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 8 June 2022 21: 29
                0
                Did you write above at the choice of Mikheev? It's just that both design bureaus have helicopters with pilots positioned side by side

                The Mil Design Bureau already had experience in creating a strike Mi-24, with a tandem cockpit.
                And the same Ka-52 was born from a single Ka-50, with which he was supposed to fly as a commander of a group of attack (single) helicopters

                A flawed concept, as time has shown.
                But there was a Ka-50-2 "Erdogan", with a completely classic cabin.
                1. KERMET
                  KERMET 8 June 2022 22: 19
                  +1
                  Defective? smile controversial issue - and there and there there are pluses and minuses.
                  By the way, about Erdogan, do you know that initially the Turks had no complaints about the layout of the Ka-52? It was then "suddenly" that a demand for a tandem appeared. And at the beginning, both the Turks and the Israelis flew around the Ka-52 (they were supposed to supply avionics), and it was their chief pilot Dior Parag, who by that time had over 2000 hours of night vision goggles! (By the way, he had great authority in the Israel Defense Forces Air Force) and having experience in piloting helicopters with various crew layouts, he was the first to express the opinion that the location of the pilot and operator (navigator) side by side on the strike machine has an undeniable advantage over the tandem!
                  1. 3danimal
                    3danimal 8 June 2022 22: 29
                    -4
                    Defective? smile debatable issue
                    USA, Eurocopter, China, South Africa - all do tandem.


                    And even Turkey (Karl!) Accepted an attack helicopter with a tandem cabin. Despite the reviews of one pilot.

                    Visibility, survival - a priority. And jokes can be poisoned on the radio, or written on the keyboard smile request
                    1. KERMET
                      KERMET 8 June 2022 22: 57
                      +1
                      The ancestor of US attack helicopters with his Cobra, the rest of "all" did not invent anything, but simply repeated the American decision, taking it as an axiom, which is not true. As for Turkey with its competition - this is a separate anecdote that can be poisoned in any location of the crew.
                      But in a combat situation, there is usually no time for jokes
                      1. 3danimal
                        3danimal 9 June 2022 00: 08
                        0
                        Well, what is the dispute about?
                        Now getting a 23mm projectile into the cockpit is more than realistic.
                        Even worse is a Starstreak tungsten dart with 400g of BB.
                        The Mi-28 in this scenario has a chance to return to the base. But not for the Ka-52, where the pilots, having poor visibility and "shoulder feeling" ..
                        add to the list of the dead. Along with the car.
                        Separately, we can say about the "brilliant" decision to keep two types of attack helicopters in service at once, having by no means the largest military budget in the world.
                      2. Alexander Vorontsov
                        9 June 2022 00: 28
                        +1
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Well, what is the dispute about?
                        Now getting a 23mm projectile into the cockpit is more than realistic.

                        Indeed .. what is the argument about.
                        Video to the studio... of the script you're talking about.

                        I have never seen this, although I admit this in theory. But falls due to problems with the tail rotor ... or even a severed tail, the darkness is dark.
                        So ... welcome, proof to the studio Bring ...
        2. Alexander Vorontsov
          9 June 2022 00: 06
          +3
          Quote: 3danimal
          Who compared?

          Whoever has not compared, in civil aviation the issue of interaction between crew members has been studied up and down.

          Pat him on the shoulder, wipe away his tears, give him a chocolate bar?

          To all questions, yes.
          I have been doing extreme diving for a long time and the issue of teamwork is "my theme".

          Our psyche is very complex and each of us is subject to adverse conditions that are caused by stress.

          And when it comes to assessing the condition - it's not about radio communications. And about human behavior. To be able to observe it and to be able to physically interact with it is VERY important.

          And a great review of each of the pilots to boot.

          It only looks good on video.
          In practice, the KA-52 has more than enough visibility.


          In humans, the field of view on which the conscious recognition of objects occurs is very narrow, and not like in birds at 360 degrees.
          Along the perimeter of the retina, we have sensitive elements with high discreteness, but with low resolution. With them, we can notice movement, but then we are forced to turn our head and look directly at the object in order to recognize it in detail.

          When a person sits in the cockpit of a helicopter, this does not work, so he has a high-resolution eye-camera on the left and the same on the right. And the brain is a high-performance processor that analyzes each frame pixel by pixel and recognizes each squirrel on a branch.

          Emotionally, such a panorama is perceived by us as "Wow!" but it's just emotional.


          Here you turn your head to the left and see the enemy’s technique.
          Can you look left and right at the same time?
          You can't really try to see something on the left... and look at something on the right at the same time. Even if you have a balcony there with Italian glazing to the floor.
          And if you sit next to each other and both look to the left, who looks to the right? Nobody...

          So in practice, when the left one looks forward and to the left, and the right one looks forward and to the right, the awareness is higher in the end.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 9 June 2022 00: 27
            -1
            And if you sit next to each other and both look to the left, who looks to the right?

            One looks to the left, the other to the right. Isn't it logical?
            But if you are a pilot in a row cockpit and the target is on the right on the ground, it will be inconvenient for you to enter it.
            I will add that the helicopter should detect anti-aircraft points from afar, preferably acting at night.
            In your video, if there was a truck with a ZU-23, or even more so a Shilka, nearby, the helicopter would have had a very difficult time.
            Suppose that he dodged the track, but got a projectile in the cockpit. Two 200x + downed car.
            Whereas "Apache", "Tiger", Mi-28 have good chances to reach home.
            1. KERMET
              KERMET 11 June 2022 16: 49
              +1
              Found on the Internet:
              Interview with the crew of the Ka-52 helicopter at the aerospace show Le Bourget 2013:
              - In our attack helicopters up to the Ka-52, the crew members were located in tandem. Ka-50 You piloted alone. You are now sitting shoulder to shoulder with your partner. Which solution do you think is better?
              Cherednichenko: It's easier to work together. This is another pair of eyes and hands, this is a help, this is a hint. There is such a thing as the distribution of attention - one pilot is engaged in piloting, and the second is in search, detection, recognition of targets and the use of weapons. At any moment we can "swap places" in terms of the distribution of functions, all systems are completely duplicated. The interaction of the Ka-52 pilots is much better compared to the tandem arrangement. A simple example from my flight practice - in the front cockpit, the ZSh or headset connector was disconnected and communication with the partner was lost. Did he just leave the connection, or did something happen to him? You don't see what's happening to him. I had to use various tricks to somehow get his attention. Here we sit side by side, see each other, we can mutually monitor the state, seek help and it is not even necessary to talk about it on the STC. We can show signs, gestures, even pay attention with a look
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 11 June 2022 18: 20
                0
                Great, your quote confirmed that the Ka-52 is better than the single-seat Ka-50 good
                1. KERMET
                  KERMET 11 June 2022 21: 44
                  0
                  Have you wondered why Mikheev began to design a single-seat helicopter at all?
            2. KERMET
              KERMET 11 June 2022 16: 53
              +2
              Again, the opinion of real pilots:
              Cherednicheko: The Mi-28 is an interesting machine and its control is quite effective. But the features of the single-screw scheme require a little more coordination when working with controls. On Kamov machines, the movement of the controls is direct, as on an airplane (when working with some controls, there is no need to use others to correct the flight). The machine is very easy to operate and is liked by pilots who have never flown a Kamov machine before, and already in the first flight they feel quite comfortable - they understand that the machine obeys them and adequately responds to their commands.
              Pavlenko: All helicopters seem to fly the same way, but this is only in the opinion of uninitiated specialists. Pine scheme gives a 10-15% advantage in thrust. And this is an improvement in altitude characteristics, load capacity, rate of climb. And yet - two screws compensate for roll and slip. That is, all single-rotor machines fly with a roll of 2-3 degrees. And a little slip. The Kamov machine flies without roll and without sliding in level flight. Seems like a trifle. But this simplifies piloting and improves shooting performance - aiming and hitting accuracy. So, in general, they improve the combat characteristics of the machine. Many people turn a blind eye to these nuances. But it is from such trifles that the result is formed and the car emerges victorious in battle. In combat conditions, every millimeter of visual visibility and every degree of maneuverability and every kilometer of speed is an increase in the chances of victory.
  20. 3danimal
    3danimal 8 June 2022 16: 41
    -5
    There are a lot of videos on the network about the problem of vibration of the pylons of the Ka-52. Structural defect or poor blade balance (poor pre-flight preparation)? recourse
    1. KERMET
      KERMET 8 June 2022 20: 09
      +2
      Of the entire video, only in one passage in a couple of seconds does it really have some kind of shaking of the pylons (possibly damage, breakage) on the rest of the frames everything is stable
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 8 June 2022 20: 24
        -2
        There are many such videos, I posted one.
        There was infa that the coaxial scheme of the propellers is more sensitive to the correct balancing of the blades, apparently there is some kind of resonance request
        1. KERMET
          KERMET 8 June 2022 20: 50
          0
          Perhaps it’s just that with a coaxial scheme, on the contrary, they indicate a low vibration of the entire platform
        2. Alexander Vorontsov
          8 June 2022 22: 07
          +4
          Quote: 3danimal
          There are many such videos, I posted one.

          Of course there are many of them, they are all Ukrainian.


          met infa,

          In the Internet? Can't be...


          In some flight modes, the air flows are "gusts of wind", respectively, there is a resonance.
          Designers have learned to calculate such things for a long time.
          It may look creepy, but the technique is calculated for this ...

          To understand the scale, it is like a twin-engine passenger aircraft.

          So watching how the wing twitches and wang catastrophes is the lot of the Sumerians. Well, you understand, they have such a good situation in the country now that the most urgent problem is the vibration of the KA-52.
          1. Alien From
            Alien From 8 June 2022 22: 55
            +2
            When I first saw how the engines on the IL 86 were shaking, it plunged me into indescribable horror, as a result, the fear of flying ..... ((
  21. iouris
    iouris 8 June 2022 17: 05
    0
    Only one question needs to be discussed: how the Russian Defense Ministry organized the collection of objective data on the results of combat applications, their accumulation and primary processing, and how this data will be used to make responsible decisions, how it will be implemented in the procurement of aircraft and in the course of combat training of troops.
  22. Stas1973
    Stas1973 8 June 2022 17: 06
    -4
    Fufu article. Ka-52 is an attack helicopter. Mi-28 - anti-tank helicopter. Various application concepts.
  23. lazy
    lazy 8 June 2022 18: 06
    +4
    in fact, in the competition back in the USSR, Ka50 won, and as the experience of using his descendant shows, it is quite deserved, but personal connections apparently played in the fate of mi28 (after all, while Ka worked for the Mi fleet for army aviation) and the desire to support Mi in the 90s. the fact that 52 cannot shoot from a cannon to the side, ... so aiming at the mi24p is only by a helicopter (rigidly fixed), and according to rumors, it’s problematic to shoot at 28 due to recoil, but 52 flies sideways perfectly, so if you need to trust . and the side wind will not be terrible for him during takeoff and landing, so the gust and "legs weren't enough" and the helicopter spun like in the "classic"
    1. WapentakeLokki
      WapentakeLokki 8 June 2022 19: 14
      0
      I read that in the 2000s, the Ka company made the Ka-50 for Turkey, and they wanted a double Ka .. then the Kamovtsy created the Ka-50 with the pilot-gunner layout exactly in tandem (and not side by side as in the Ka-52) .. the tail boom was lengthened and it flew .. well, when the Ka-52 was created, this scheme was replaced with side-by-side .. in my opinion in vain ..
      1. KERMET
        KERMET 8 June 2022 20: 13
        +1
        Yes, designers are such entertainers ...
        But seriously, take it and finally read about the creation of the Ka-50 and its family, you can find and buy an excellent book "The Tale of the Black Shark" on the net
      2. 3danimal
        3danimal 8 June 2022 20: 21
        -4
        Well, when the Ka-52 was created, this scheme was replaced with side-by-side .. in my opinion in vain ..

        Exactly good
        A ZU-23 projectile hit and we had 2 killed pilots and a wrecked helicopter.
        The Mi-28 has more chances in this situation.
        Plus, every pilot has a better view.
      3. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 8 June 2022 20: 46
        0
        Yes...it was! Ka-50-2 "Erdogan"! Some "military experts" consider the placement of helicopter pilots on the Ka-52 side by side ("society") as a disadvantage ... they say, one burst from the DShK can "fill up" two pilots at once!
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          11 June 2022 19: 00
          0
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Yes...it was! Ka-50-2 "Erdogan"! Some "military experts" consider the placement of helicopter pilots on the Ka-52 side by side ("society") as a disadvantage ... they say, one burst from the DShK can "fill up" two pilots at once!

          The burden of proof is on the claimant. And in this matter it is necessary to bring statistics. Here we have 10 sorties. And here we have 000 cases of killing both pilots.
          And based on this, justify the requirements for the helicopter.

          Approach - "may" does not work. Can a rock fall on your head? Maybe. Does that mean everyone should always wear a helmet?

          Can a person die in a plane crash? Maybe. Don't fly? But what about the fact that the risk of death in an accident is higher? Go somewhere where there are no cars?
          1. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 14 June 2022 19: 03
            0
            What am I? Yes, I'm not! There is just such an opinion! Can you refute? Refute! The flag is in your hands!
  24. nonsense
    nonsense 8 June 2022 19: 11
    -6
    wassat
    in the process of conducting the CBO, we have already received enough data to conclude that of our two attack helicopters, one has clear advantages. We are talking about the Kamov KA-52 helicopter.

    and who are these "we" who have received enough data? We haven't received...
    About the "benefits":
    1. 10% of the power is spent on the tail rotor with a coaxial scheme. Only for some reason this drawback does not affect its speed and flight range in any way. With the same engines, these figures for both helicopters are almost the same. Maybe it takes more than one main propeller and a small steering one to "turn" two main propellers of the Ka-52 at once?
    2. IMHO, of course, but only a catapult on a helicopter without the need. It just makes the device more expensive. But I don’t remember any cases of successful ejection from the Ka-52 ... And the accident rate of the Ka-52 will be higher than that of the Mi-28 ...
    3.reservation is always in place. At least shoot with rockets, at least with machine guns. And in terms of purely psychological peace of mind, the pilot will not hurt ...
    4. EMNIP the Mi-28 has a compartment where it is able to take two crew members of a downed helicopter. It's worth it!
    PS: and somewhere I came across a video on which they shoot down immediately two Ka-52 ...
    1. KERMET
      KERMET 8 June 2022 20: 27
      +5
      1. Read about the advantage of alignment at the link
      http://www.airwar.ru/enc/sh/ka29.html
      2. About ejection seats - it’s not enough to put them in, you also need to bring up the "psychological readiness" of pilots to use them. I doubt whether helicopter pilots have simulators on this topic at all.
      But as it is written correctly, they will be better - the psychological confidence of the pilot is more expensive than any money.
      The accident rate is higher, because the ease of piloting the Ka-52 gives rise to excessive self-confidence in some pilots (a recent video about ultra-low "bathing" is an example of this).
      3. Everything is fine with booking.
      4. The compartment "got" from the Mi-24, which was also positioned by some as an air armored personnel carrier.
      Mi-28 was developed as an anti-tank helicopter (similar to AN-64)
      Why is there a transport and passenger compartment?
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 8 June 2022 20: 56
        0
        Quote: KERMET
        4. The compartment "got" from the Mi-24, which was also positioned by some as an air armored personnel carrier.
        Mi-28 was developed as an anti-tank helicopter (similar to AN-64)
        Why is there a transport and passenger compartment?

        There was no "compartment" in the first experimental modification of the Mi-28! But then they went to meet the wishes of the "military aircraft" and "whacked" the rescue (!) Compartment for the possibility of rescuing the crew of a downed helicopter! By the way, the transport-combat (!) Mi-24 has an airborne (!) Compartment, which can accommodate a squad of paratroopers ...
        1. KERMET
          KERMET 8 June 2022 21: 26
          +1
          In the first experimental from 1968? Which one has not been developed?
          And in the TTZ there was no requirement for a "rescue" compartment, it was just that the radio equipment compartment allowed something to be shoved there.
          1. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 9 June 2022 12: 19
            0
            Quote: KERMET
            there was no requirement for a "rescue" compartment, it was just that the radio equipment compartment allowed something to be shoved in there.

            Well, how do you know! In the article that I read, it was said the way I "retold"!
        2. vovochkarzhevsky
          vovochkarzhevsky 9 June 2022 12: 09
          -1
          This compartment greatly increases the autonomy of the helicopter.
  25. ailcat
    ailcat 8 June 2022 22: 27
    +1
    Quote: Dedok
    and such an impression - no one set such tasks ....

    In the situation that is on the video - "shot and forgot" is approximately equal to "shot and missed." To use the same "helfire" it is necessary that the target be high-contrast for the missile guidance system. In this situation - obviously, that was not the goal. This means that in order to hit, you need to "illuminate" the target with the aircraft controller's laser or the helicopter's laser sighting system (by the way, this is how hellfire-2 works on tanks with stopped and cooled engines or on pillboxes). Which will immediately turn the helicopter (and the gunner too, if it illuminates not from a pre-installed tripod, but "from the hands") into an excellent target.
    Here we see the use of a television channel (and, apparently, with the imposition of at least two or even three spectra), and even on it the target remains very low contrast. That is, the target is held only due to the incomparably large capabilities of large-sized optics and the computational capabilities of the helicopter sighting system, which is several times (if not dozens of times) heavier than the "rocket assembly", and dozens (if not hundreds) times larger than the missile's homing head. And at the same time, the helicopter does not glow with a laser or radar like a Christmas tree (as if shouting the enemy's air defense system "here I am, shoot me down!"). Those. remains so imperceptible to the air defense system that its guidance locator was able to "find" the helicopter only on a brazen second run.
  26. Victor Tsenin
    Victor Tsenin 9 June 2022 00: 28
    -1
    Why didn’t they mention the advantage of the overhead radar in 28, and, at the same time, the risk of overlapping blades in 52? The article is interesting, but it seems one-sided.
    1. vovochkarzhevsky
      vovochkarzhevsky 9 June 2022 10: 42
      -2
      The overhead radar has more disadvantages than benefits.
      1. Victor Tsenin
        Victor Tsenin 9 June 2022 12: 45
        +2
        What are the disadvantages of the presence of an overhead radar compared to its absence - it would be very useful to know. Can you tell me?
        1. vovochkarzhevsky
          vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 09: 38
          -1
          First of all, she unmasks the helicopter before he finds something himself. It is a source of radiation and quite strong.
          Is there a need for it? Yes, none. The task of the helicopter is to destroy targets at the forefront identified during the hostilities of the ground forces. At the same time, visual identification of the target is at the forefront. Here is good HB equipment, yes, you need it. In my time, there were first attempts to install this, but it was not very successful and only worked with SPPU.
          1. Victor Tsenin
            Victor Tsenin 10 June 2022 10: 29
            -2
            After all, any radar is a source of radiation, so it turns on, in this case, if necessary.
            It is clear that the main weapon of the vertical ones is the NAR, however, the radar above the propeller gives good situational awareness, especially when the car is behind cover, in the form of a forest belt, etc.
            The Ka-52, which is known, also has a radar, but it is located irrationally, you will not offer to remove it?)
            I fully agree about NVD, but there are changes in this vein, as far as I know, based on the experience of the ATS.
            1. vovochkarzhevsky
              vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 11: 05
              -1
              Again a fairy tale about shelters. Sorry, no time to explain in detail.
              However, read.
              https://zen.yandex.ru/media/id/5ac0950fd7bf2113e95daebd/neskolko-slov-o-puskah-ptur-5f7ae3a771c44f0829c2cde1
              1. Victor Tsenin
                Victor Tsenin 10 June 2022 12: 13
                -1
                I read it. Firstly, this option is a boon, i.e. its presence is better than its absence. Secondly, we do not yet have missiles that can fully use such advantages. However, the key word is yet. Well, in the final - you write that the radar is a vulnerability, then let's find out if you think you should remove all radars from helicopters? And the second point is the placement of the radar on 52 better than that of 28NM? I see that you are somewhat persistent in the obvious moment, I believe from the nuances of character. Sincerely.
                1. Foul skeptic
                  Foul skeptic 10 June 2022 13: 03
                  +1
                  I read it.

                  Didn't you laugh? For example with
                  one of the best and for today ATGM complex "Shturm-V"

                  with 5 km range, one channel and non-tandem warhead belay
                  1. Victor Tsenin
                    Victor Tsenin 10 June 2022 13: 14
                    0
                    Yes, that’s not funny, but I’m glad that, according to known information, work is underway on this issue.
                    1. Foul skeptic
                      Foul skeptic 10 June 2022 13: 25
                      +1
                      work on this issue

                      Yes, for a long time already, and by the standards of the helicopter armament that we actually have, the aforementioned Shturm-V is an anachronism. It's just that your interlocutor is stuck within the framework of his own experience, relaying it now to everyone and everything. And not realizing that it looks stupid.
                      1. Victor Tsenin
                        Victor Tsenin 10 June 2022 14: 04
                        0
                        Yes, it looks like it, it’s not stupid of course, but stubbornness, with the obvious, is not clear to me.)
                  2. vovochkarzhevsky
                    vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 13: 24
                    -2
                    An excellent, well-controlled and high-speed ATGM, moreover, the complex itself is compatible with the Atakoy. Truly one of the best.
                    And what about NATO? Until now, they also use BGM-71 TOW.
                    As for the AGM-114 Hellfire, it has typical sores of laser target illumination, the maximum range is given under the condition of absolute transparency of the atmosphere. There is nothing to say about RL. While "Storm" is perfectly aimed at targets that are barely visible through smoke and dust (which are always on the battlefield).
                    1. Foul skeptic
                      Foul skeptic 10 June 2022 13: 30
                      +2
                      Until now, they also use BGM-71 TOW

                      On helicopters? Wake up, you are in 2022.
                2. vovochkarzhevsky
                  vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 13: 12
                  -2
                  First, the question comes down to how much all this increases the mass of the helicopter.
                  Secondly, what ATGMs are you talking about? Not about American helfires with radar guidance? Do you even know how long and in what modes this guano flies to the target? There, the right crew of the tank will have time not only to leave, but also to smoke. Despite the fact that all this works in the sterile conditions of the landfill, no more.
                  Thirdly, a helicopter radar is needed, but of the same type as on the Ka-52, primarily to ensure security at WWI and against the CC. As a means of guiding ATGMs, its value tends to zero. With the same effect, you can give flashlights to the special forces and send partisans into the forest at night to catch them.
                  And the cornerstone of ATGM guidance is not even search, but visual identification of the target. And the radar is not only indistinguishable from a downed tank, it doesn’t care at all, as long as the reflective surface is sufficient. The only loophole is the movement, but there are some troubles here too.
                  For example, having detected radar exposure, the target will automatically shoot dipole interference, hiding as if behind a mirror, or even put active interference.
                  1. Victor Tsenin
                    Victor Tsenin 10 June 2022 13: 21
                    -1
                    1. I believe the mass is comparable, I also note that nevertheless you evaded a direct answer.
                    2. I say, of course, about domestic ATGMs. Incl. about the future. As for the hellfire, its parameters are known, but nevertheless it has proven itself precisely thanks to the fire-and-forget principle.
                    3. You again did not answer whether the location of the radar at 28NM is the best.
                    Thank you very much for the information, I see that you are from the vertical and know the topic, like Our Father.
                    1. vovochkarzhevsky
                      vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 13: 34
                      -2
                      1. Here you don’t believe, but you need to know, for example, how many technical problems need to be solved by placing the radar above the propeller hub.
                      2. As for the Helfire, ATGMs only with laser illumination proved themselves, and there there was no principle to let it go. The only thing is when the launch is from a helicopter, and the backlight is from the ground.
                      And I repeat once again, it is so little to hit, you have to hit a weak spot, the search for which goes through the entire guidance process. I am not talking about such goals as bunkers.
                      3. The location of the radar above the sleeve is worthless. Why such sophistication if there are no problems to climb those very extra couple of meters by helicopter? However, the Mi-28 helicopter itself is shit there, according to the mind, it should be removed from production in favor of the Phoenix.
                      1. Victor Tsenin
                        Victor Tsenin 10 June 2022 14: 01
                        -1
                        1. An incomprehensible answer again. Well, the problem of placement has long been solved on all the wonderful helicopters in the world.
                        2. Based on realities, the helicopter should release an ATGM and survive, without thinking about the specific point of impact of the missile.
                        3. Now your answer is clear. However, I note that the country and the pilots do not consider 28NM crap, and therefore your answer is biased and biased.
                        As for a couple of meters, again, in the current realities, every meter is important.
                      2. vovochkarzhevsky
                        vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 22: 57
                        -2
                        1. An incomprehensible answer again. Well, the problem of placement has long been solved on all the wonderful helicopters in the world.


                        In your opinion, the Ka-52 is not wonderful? laughing
                        2. Based on realities, the helicopter should release an ATGM and survive, without thinking about the specific point of impact of the missile.


                        You are thinking while sitting on the couch. I worked with ATGMs, so I know how accurately you have to point them.

                        3. Now your answer is clear. However, I note that the country and the pilots do not consider 28NM crap, and therefore your answer is biased and biased.

                        Are you familiar with the problems of operating the Mi-28 and combat helicopters in general? Forgive me, but your tendentiousness and bias are very far from all this.
                        As for a couple of meters, again, in the current realities, every meter is important.

                        Well, well, let's tell how important these parameters are. lol
                      3. Victor Tsenin
                        Victor Tsenin 14 June 2022 01: 04
                        0
                        1. In my opinion, the Ka-52 is amazing and amazing. Not shit like you like to write and nothing like that.
                        2. I'm not sitting on the couch, savings where necessary, the application is ready, I'm going the other day.
                        3. The vertical combatants complained only about night vision devices, if there is a message from them - you are welcome, write.

                        Well, to tell you, I see how the vertical creep to the ground for the sake of a meter, friends in the NWO confirm.
                        We're done.
                  2. 3danimal
                    3danimal 11 June 2022 14: 19
                    0
                    Do you even know how long and in what modes this guano flies to the target?

                    Where did you get your information from?
                    Flight time at a distance of 8 km, when launched from a ground launcher, - 38 sec.

                    A whirlwind during air launch flies to a Max range of 28s.
                    You are right: in 10s (with an air launch of Hellfire - the difference will be less) you can smoke, drink coffee, and go into the bushes smile No.
                    Here is the logic: despite the obvious shortcomings of the weapons of older generations, still drown for them? Your helicopter pilots will die many times more if you have to fight with a technically superior enemy. Just statistically, because they will be more exposed to return fire. And to train - 3-5 years (this is not the Second World War with aircraft that are primitive by modern standards). Where will you get new ones?
  27. vovochkarzhevsky
    vovochkarzhevsky 9 June 2022 11: 10
    -1
    But it’s interesting, is there anyone besides me who flew combat helicopters?
  28. Barlio57
    Barlio57 9 June 2022 13: 47
    0
    Savez vous ou en sont les futures Helfire russes?
    1. Victor Tsenin
      Victor Tsenin 10 June 2022 14: 03
      0
      Behind strong walls of our research centers, of course.
  29. 3danimal
    3danimal 9 June 2022 14: 38
    +1
    Also, the coaxial scheme turned out to be very successful for use in sea-based options. On the one hand, propeller diameters are smaller, and such helicopters are more convenient for deployment in ship hangars.

    The height of the rotorcraft with an urgent scheme is noticeably greater, which requires a higher hangar. The propeller diameters do not matter if the blades fold. And besides the blades, there is also a tail boom.
    1. KERMET
      KERMET 9 June 2022 17: 35
      0
      More, but we have historically all shipborne helicopters were coaxial, especially the Ka-27 is 410 mm even higher than the Ka-52
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 9 June 2022 18: 57
        -1
        Ka-27 is 410 mm even higher than Ka-52

        It was always interesting: who came up with the design of the Ka-27/29 family that kills with aesthetics and aerodynamics? request
        1. vovochkarzhevsky
          vovochkarzhevsky 9 June 2022 21: 01
          0
          In aviation, the concept of design as a class is absent.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 9 June 2022 21: 13
            0
            I'm talking about layout, aerodynamics. Compare with SH-60 and Aerospacial Dauphine. Sikorsky began to be exploited only 3 years later than his clumsy colleague from the Kamov Design Bureau.

            1. vovochkarzhevsky
              vovochkarzhevsky 9 June 2022 23: 35
              0
              Well? The carrying capacity, passenger capacity of the Ka-32 is greater. The American wins a little in speed, but is inferior in ceiling and range.
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 9 June 2022 23: 49
                0
                slightly better in terms of speed

                Aerodynamics are better.
                First of all, this is an anti-submarine helicopter, marine.
                1. vovochkarzhevsky
                  vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 09: 24
                  0
                  Namely, the aerodynamics of coaxial propellers are better, especially for marine helicopters.
                  1. 3danimal
                    3danimal 10 June 2022 10: 22
                    -2
                    Perhaps, but the fuselage resembling a LAZ bus spoils everything request
                    In the 80s, however, the Kamovites began to improve:
                    1. vovochkarzhevsky
                      vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 11: 01
                      +1
                      Let's not talk nonsense. This is not a "fix", but the construction of a helicopter for certain requirements. KB im. Mile ignored this niche, they already have a huge piece. At the same time, they wiped the competitors' noses with the fenestron, they did not succeed.
                      1. 3danimal
                        3danimal 10 June 2022 11: 41
                        -2
                        Let's not talk nonsense. This is not a "fix", but the construction of a helicopter for certain requirements.

                        I'm talking about a sane and modern layout of the machine.
                        After Kamov's previous military transporters.
                      2. vovochkarzhevsky
                        vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 11: 57
                        0
                        Where do you get such "experts" of helicopters from? Knowledge is zero, and the CSF is through the roof.
                        I bring to your attention that this "modern" layout is already 110 years old.
                      3. 3danimal
                        3danimal 10 June 2022 13: 29
                        -2
                        About the layout: a streamlined fuselage, engines spaced apart on its sides (which reduces the likelihood of failure of both at once during shelling), a sliding large troop compartment door.
                        This is what the SH-60 and Ka-60 have, but the Ka-27 is completely absent.
                        The circuit can be coaxial or single screw, that's not the point. (Sikorsky uses both of these schemes on different machines)
                      4. vovochkarzhevsky
                        vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 23: 35
                        0
                        You will not name the source of your knowledge about the layout of helicopters. lol
            2. KERMET
              KERMET 9 June 2022 23: 56
              +1
              Considering that the "legs grow" from the Ka-25, the first flight of which was 1961 .... The difference in the age of the layout is colossal.
              And Sikorsky will be clumsy here in terms of aerobatics, and he has problems with the compactness of the ship's helicopter
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 10 June 2022 00: 22
                -1
                Considering that "legs grow" from the Ka-25, the first flight of which is 1961

                I agree, that explains a lot. Saved on redesign request
                And Sikorsky will be clumsy here in terms of aerobatics

                Doesn't look like him:

                and he has problems with the compactness of the ship's helicopter

                From 4:48 he is folded. Above, I gave a photo, it even has a tail boom that folds.
                6:50 - also takeoff / landing in bad weather conditions.
                1. KERMET
                  KERMET 10 June 2022 17: 51
                  +1
                  For a ship's helicopter, not only the dimensions in the folded state are important. A large length, a larger diameter of the main rotor, the presence of a tail rotor on a long tail boom - all these are additional dangers when maneuvering on a limited ship landing area. To this we can add the greater effect of the wind on the classical scheme, in comparison with the coaxial
              2. vovochkarzhevsky
                vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 09: 45
                0
                Comparing Ka-25 and Ka-32 is like Mi-4 and Mi-8.
                And for that matter, Sikorsky borrowed the layout from Yuryev.
                1. KERMET
                  KERMET 10 June 2022 15: 47
                  +1
                  No one is going to compare the characteristics and capabilities of the Ka-25 and Ka-32, it's just that their similarity in layout is visible to the naked eye
                  1. vovochkarzhevsky
                    vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 23: 06
                    -1
                    Imagine, but there are not so many layout schemes.
                2. 3danimal
                  3danimal 10 June 2022 18: 06
                  0
                  Sikorsky borrowed the layout from Yuryev.

                  The layout of which of your helicopters? (I hope this is not about the single-rotor tail rotor scheme itself?)
                  1. vovochkarzhevsky
                    vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 23: 07
                    0
                    You hope in vain, the priority of a single-rotor scheme with a tail rotor is for Yuryev.
                    1. 3danimal
                      3danimal 10 June 2022 23: 35
                      0
                      What is the dispute about? The first helicopters were designed and built by Russian engineers.
                      1. vovochkarzhevsky
                        vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 23: 42
                        0
                        Not true, worked out and created already by the Soviets. The priority of a real flying helicopter, and not jumping for Cheryomukhin.
                      2. 3danimal
                        3danimal 11 June 2022 00: 10
                        +1
                        worked out and created already by the Soviet

                        Where did they all study? Did you go through formation? All were born before 1900 (Yuriev in 1989).
                        When did Zhukovsky's aeronautics circle exist?
                        The "good Bolsheviks" did not come out of nowhere.
                        Therefore, yes - Russian engineers. And Sikorsky, in the same way, is a source of pride for his compatriots.
                        But his and many other talented people emigration is the result of the October Revolution.
          2. Foul skeptic
            Foul skeptic 10 June 2022 11: 32
            0
            In aviation, the concept of design as a class is absent.

            English-speaking people will not let you lie that design (design) is development, design, calculation, project, design.
            1. vovochkarzhevsky
              vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 13: 50
              -1
              We have this artistic concept.
              1. Foul skeptic
                Foul skeptic 10 June 2022 14: 10
                -1
                Specifically, perhaps you. And the graduates of 20 universities of the country in the specialty "Industrial Design" - no
                1. vovochkarzhevsky
                  vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 22: 58
                  0
                  Well, how do specialists in this specialization develop helicopters? lol
                  1. Foul skeptic
                    Foul skeptic 11 June 2022 10: 44
                    +1
                    You were told that
                    We have this artistic concept

                    As you can see - not only.
                    Well, about your new question. The answer to it is yes, when developing any aircraft (and in general, any technology), a design project is created.
  30. Jackson
    Jackson 9 June 2022 18: 56
    0
    But at one time, someone very successfully lobbied for the release of the Mi-90 in the 28s, despite the victory of the then Ka-50 in the competition. And the release of the Ka-52 was made by the teaspoon.
    There were arguments then - and the lack of armor, and the allegedly unreliable scheme of coaxial propellers, and the gun is poorly located. And now here's how it is.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 11 June 2022 13: 46
      0
      someone very successfully lobbied for the release of the Mi-90 in the 28s, despite the victory of the then Ka-50 in the competition

      In April 1986, joint flights of the Mi-28A and Ka-50 took place at the Gorohovets training ground under the State Joint Testing Program (GSI). The requirement is to spot 25 targets on the battlefield. The crew of the Mi-28A at low altitude detected all 25 targets without being detected. The Ka-50 pilot at much higher altitudes was able to detect only two targets

      Judging by this episode, it was the Ka-50 that was lobbied what
      Two pilots find targets better.
      1. KERMET
        KERMET 11 June 2022 15: 47
        0
        This is just an episode (also from the words of one person), but in fact - the Ka-50 came out the winner in that competition.
        Would this eyewitness explain - in what way?
      2. KERMET
        KERMET 11 June 2022 16: 09
        0
        Here is how the case is described, as "Two pilots find targets better":
        Milevites, trying to prove the superiority of a two-seat helicopter over a single-seat one, made an attempt to significantly change the target environment. However, due to technical and financial reasons, it was not possible to implement their requirements. Then, at the initiative of the leadership of the cost center, a "virtual mountain" was invented. At the beginning of the combat director of the Mi-28 and Ka-50 range, they had to make a right or left turn around a conditional obstacle before entering the target search area. Formally, such a condition really reflected real combat operations in the European theater of operations, which, as you know, are very hilly. But the "trick" was that when performing this maneuver, the pilots of both helicopters could not see the targets, but there was an operator on the Mi-28, which the non-existent "mountain" did not interfere with starting the search for the object of attack before the competitor.
      3. KERMET
        KERMET 11 June 2022 16: 19
        0
        And by the way, about your favorite swivel gun:
        At the same competition, it turned out that the Ka-50
        performs a flat turn with an angular velocity equal to the rotation speed of the Mi-28 mobile gun, but with high accuracy of fire. The accuracy of the 2A42 on the Ka-50 was 1,6 thousandths of the range and exceeded that of the Mi-28 (2A42 with an accuracy of 4,6 t.d.)
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 11 June 2022 18: 26
          0
          performs a flat turn with an angular velocity equal to the rotation speed of the Mi-28 mobile gun, but with high accuracy of fire.

          The turret provides such a cool feature as auto-tracking of the target. When you dodge a Stinger/Needle thrown at you but shoot back. Say that "by eye"
          better?
          1. KERMET
            KERMET 11 June 2022 22: 13
            +1
            Believe me, when you dodge the Stinger / Needle, your auto-escort will immediately fly off, all the more, based on low accuracy, it will be more of a harassing fire without hitting the target, because - the greater the angle of rotation of the turret, which is not in the center of mass, the worse it will be the accuracy of this system
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 11 June 2022 23: 56
              0
              Accuracy is decided by a gun with a lower instantaneous value of the recoil force.
              GSh-301 with four times lower rate of fire, as an option.
              All countries make helicopters with turrets.
              Even RF: Mi-28, Mi-35.
              1. KERMET
                KERMET 12 June 2022 12: 38
                0
                Low rate of fire - reducing the likelihood of hitting an air target, you can do anything - you can do something with better accuracy, something with worse and less power, and I think the choice is obvious here
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 12 June 2022 13: 11
                  0
                  Ok, reduce the rate of fire by a factor of 3, up to 500 rounds / m.
                  This is +/- like 2a42, but the projectile is slightly lighter, the muzzle velocity is slightly lower (the recoil momentum of the shot is 8-10% less). The gun itself is twice as light.
                  1. KERMET
                    KERMET 12 June 2022 15: 09
                    0
                    On 2A42 there is already a slow rate of fire of 300 rounds per minute, and even single shots can be fired.
                    The lighter the projectile - the worse its ballistics, with increasing distance the accuracy will be worse. On the Ka-50(52) it is located just perfectly, the guidance angles are compensated by maneuverability and ease of control. On the Mi-28 - it wouldn’t hurt to conjure here, 2A42 is too powerful there
                    1. 3danimal
                      3danimal 12 June 2022 15: 21
                      0
                      pointing angles are compensated by maneuverability and ease of control

                      The Ka-52 gun differs little from the SPPU. Yawing is a forced measure that they are trying to justify.
                      On the Mi-28, guidance with the help of the NSC and auto-tracking of the target is possible (there is auto-tracking on Apache).
                      On the Mi-28 - it wouldn’t hurt to conjure here, 2A42 is too powerful there

                      The GSh-35L was installed on the Mi-23, for the 28th it is necessary to adapt the GSh-301, I think. The projectile there is literally 10g lighter. The main thing is to be able to accurately "pour" from the turret. From which it is necessary to remove the boxes with cartridges, which make the movable part of the installation heavier and significantly reduce the ammunition (250 shells in total, against 500 for the Ka-52 and 650/1300 for the Apache).
                      1. KERMET
                        KERMET 12 June 2022 19: 52
                        +1
                        Why think about forced measures? When choosing the layout, it was deliberately placed there - the gun is powerful and was first placed on a helicopter. Moreover, the solution showed its effectiveness - at the competition it showed better accuracy than competitors.
                        Sense from the NSC and auto-tracking that cannot guarantee an accurate hit? GSh-301 is good, but not very good for a helicopter
                        It also has a number of disadvantages, in particular, a large return - 8 tons, which is why at the beginning of the operation of the MiG-29 when firing, there were cases of equipment failures, "knocked out" by concussions. The survivability of the gun barrel is also low - 2000 rounds, and, with the reservation of firing bursts of limited length - no more than 35-40 rounds. In operation, it turned out that the consumption of the entire tape even in such bursts (called “long” for the GSh-301, in contrast to the recommended “short” ones of 7-15 rounds) and with the prescribed short intervals between them for cooling, is accompanied by excessive loads on the barrel with its thermoplastic wear

                        There are boxes with cartridges on the turret, because the turret is mobile - you have to conjure with a flexible supply of ammunition, this will not add reliability. Can the GSh-301 work simultaneously with two ammunition? or will you have to use a mixed tape (on Apache like mixed?)
                      2. 3danimal
                        3danimal 12 June 2022 23: 00
                        0
                        There are boxes with cartridges on the turret, because the turret is mobile - you have to conjure with a flexible supply of ammunition, this will not add reliability.

                        Because it's easier and cheaper.
                        The linkless sleeve feed technology should at least be used in rapid fire guns.
                        On Aache, the feed works reliably, I have not seen any information about problems.
                    2. 3danimal
                      3danimal 12 June 2022 19: 30
                      0
                      About maneuverability: it has a price. Hidden in a coaxial scheme.
                      https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/202603
                      1. KERMET
                        KERMET 12 June 2022 20: 06
                        0
                        Any helicopter can be broken if it is piloted outside the limits of the RLE, chopping off the tail boom with a main rotor is also not uncommon.
                      2. 3danimal
                        3danimal 12 June 2022 23: 17
                        0
                        chopping off the tail boom by the main rotor is also not uncommon.

                        I have not seen data on similar episodes on the Mi-28 request
  31. Incvizitor
    Incvizitor 9 June 2022 19: 27
    +1
    I wrote many times about missiles, I forgot to shoot, it’s disgusting that in 2022 you still have to accompany the goal in the old fashioned way, becoming an easy target yourself.
    1. vovochkarzhevsky
      vovochkarzhevsky 9 June 2022 21: 06
      0
      Quote: Incvizitor
      I wrote many times about missiles, I forgot to shoot, it’s disgusting that in 2022 you still have to accompany the goal in the old fashioned way, becoming an easy target yourself.


      Firstly, the helicopter is not a target, given the range of the ATGM.
      Secondly, in practice (in Chechnya) I retargeted up to 20% of ATGMs in the process of targeting. So these let-forgot principles are only good for MANPADS.
      By the way, in Afghanistan, English bluepipes were most feared, you can’t deceive them, they are guided by the operator.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 9 June 2022 21: 22
        0
        Now the heirs of Blowpipe, Starstreak are used.
        A terrible thing, especially against a helicopter ..
        The United States and Britain have not completely abandoned laser-guided ATGMs.
        Interesting: Hellfire, Brimstone fly in a trajectory above the beam and attack from above, which again increases the chances of hitting a heavily armored target.
        1. vovochkarzhevsky
          vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 09: 26
          0
          I'm sorry, but this video is from a computer game.
        2. 3danimal
          3danimal 10 June 2022 10: 28
          +1
          Yeah, and YouTube restricted viewing because of this? smile No.
          Recorded from a thermal imager, they are all of the same quality. Pay attention to the explosions and marks on the screen. These are not toys.
          1. vovochkarzhevsky
            vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 10: 57
            -1
            Yeah, and YouTube restricted viewing because of this?


            Do you have any idea from what range the ATGM is used, and from what SPPU? But I know in practice, applied both. That's why I say, the first video is crap.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 10 June 2022 11: 35
              0
              The minimum ATGM launch range for an insurgent vehicle is 2 kilometers, I think. While getting closer.
              Then I shot from a 30mm cannon turret, judging by the spread - from a great distance.
              In general, it was originally about the trajectory of the flight and attack of the Hellfire ATGM target, which is more advantageous for protected targets than that of ATGMs flying "in the beam".
              1. vovochkarzhevsky
                vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 11: 51
                -1
                Here you don't have to think, but you have to know. For the same Sturm, the minimum range is declared to be 400 meters, closer it simply does not stabilize on the trajectory. But in practice, already at a range of less than 1500 meters, guidance from a helicopter is a headache. And why, if from 5000-3000 meters it is quite comfortable and safe to direct. As for the gun, it is for a helicopter like a pistol for an officer. You can shoot in combat, but only in special cases like hand-to-hand combat, otherwise it makes no sense. Yes, in Afghanistan, many SPPUs also used a cannon, but the conditions there are different. Nevertheless, even there such a wild combination as an ATGM - a gun was not used. Too different distances. Even GSh30 and then up to 800 effective range. What to say about the American fart.
                And yes, after an ATGM hits a car, there is no need to extract anyone.
                1. Foul skeptic
                  Foul skeptic 10 June 2022 12: 12
                  0
                  Even GSh30 and then up to 800 effective range. What to say about the American fart.

                  The American fart has an effective range above 800 m, which you stated for the GSh-30-2 (whose excess power plays a negative role here). Shooting from the M230, for example, at 1,5 km is no problem at all.
                  1. vovochkarzhevsky
                    vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 12: 55
                    -1
                    Comparing the GSh-2-30K with the M230 is the same as comparing the AKM with the PPSh, the caliber is the same, but the cartridges are different.
                    Don't tell me about the excess power of fairy tales, it only manifests itself at a high pace in medium and large queues.
                    At a slow pace, there is no recoil and the accuracy is excellent. This is not a misunderstanding like GSh23, which just puts shells under itself.
                    And the Americans are still masters of lying, they will have the maximum range for effective issuing.
                    Regarding the problems of the M230, you got excited. There, only one cylindrical sleeve is worth something.
                    1. Foul skeptic
                      Foul skeptic 10 June 2022 13: 18
                      -1
                      Comparing the GSh-2-30K with the M230 is the same as comparing the AKM with the PPSh, the caliber is the same, but the cartridges are different.

                      So you yourself began to compare the General Staff with the "American fart" wassat
                      accuracy is excellent

                      There can't be great accuracy without our own gyro-stabilized platform. Miracles don't happen.
                      And the Americans are still masters of lying, they will have the maximum range for effective issuing.

                      The maximum is 3. Here is an example of shooting at 1,4 km.
                      [media=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICsujYpRI8A]
                      There, only one cylindrical sleeve is worth something.

                      What effect does this have on effective range? ))
                      1. vovochkarzhevsky
                        vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 13: 42
                        -1

                        So you yourself began to compare the General Staff with the "American fart"


                        For an anonymous troll, I explain, no one compared, but they explained why firing from the M230 is impossible after an ATGM. Read above, everything is said. I don't have time for every old fart like you with empty biography syndrome.

                        There can't be great accuracy without our own gyro-stabilized platform. Miracles don't happen.


                        These are the miracles. From 800 meters, the GSh-2-30 easily hits an armored personnel carrier from the first shell. But when the initial velocity of the projectile is lower, and the ratio of mass to caliber is not very good, then the platform will not help either.

                        What effect does this have on effective range? ))


                        Did I say that this affects the range? Again you are lying. There is a problem with extraction.
                    2. 3danimal
                      3danimal 10 June 2022 20: 30
                      0
                      from them there will be a maximum range for effective issue.


                      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M230_chain_gun

                      I met a comment from one of the technical consultants of Eagle Dynamics (the creators of DCS): the Mi-24 is the Su-25 of the first modifications from the world of helicopters, and the Apache is already the F-18c.
                      The gun has a ballistic computer, a laser rangefinder. You point the aiming mark in the monocle at the target, which is then taken for auto-tracking. And thanks to electronics, servo drive, etc., the effective range of the gun is still 1500m (maximum - 4000m).
                      This is not a frame from a movie about the future, it is flying right now.


                      Training video from DCS, where "AH-64D" is realized with the highest realism.


                      Please note that there is no HUD in the cockpit, because it is on the pilot's head.
                      1. vovochkarzhevsky
                        vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 23: 29
                        0
                        I met a comment from one of the technical consultants of Eagle Dynamics (the creators of DCS): the Mi-24 is the Su-25 of the first modifications from the world of helicopters, and the Apache is already the F-18c.
                        The gun has a ballistic computer, a laser rangefinder. You point the aiming mark in the monocle at the target, which is then taken for auto-tracking. And thanks to electronics, servo drive, etc., the effective range of the gun is still 1500m (maximum - 4000m).
                        This is not a frame from a movie about the future, it is flying right now.


                        How do you like to believe in fairy tales. What the hell are 1500 meters? This is all advertising and not very honest. Yes, read about the M230 ammunition, which was blinded on the basis of a 20 mm fart. As a result, the projectile is lighter, and the powder charge is also smaller. Even a relatively high initial speed (800 m/s) does not help. The ratio of the midsection of the projectile to its weight causes the projectile to lose speed much faster. And no ballistic computers will help, they are not able to calculate the turbulence of the atmosphere.
                        And these helmet-mounted sights look nice, but in practice they are of no use. I repeat, the cannon for the helicopter is an auxiliary weapon. So why do these sophistications make it difficult for the pilot to see. Yes, and carrying all this on your head is still a pleasure.
                        That's why we don't do it, not because they can't. It makes no sense, given the weak impact of 30mm shells. Just so that the same S-5 was abandoned?
                      2. 3danimal
                        3danimal 10 June 2022 23: 41
                        +1
                        And these helmet-mounted sights look nice, but in practice they are of no use.

                        You always have before your eyes the main flight and combat information, target designations from other vehicles, UAVs, and this is NOT necessary? And how then to fight in a network-centric war?
                        Don't be a retrograde.
                        One forum member from Israel wrote here that young pilots, the generation of “gamers”, are better suited for training on the F-35, what with a computer on you. Because modern technology is in many ways already a computer.
                        Yes, read about the M230 ammunition, which was blinded on the basis of a 20 mm fart

                        Where did you get it from? Is it okay that a 30x113mm projectile has been used in ADEN and DEFA air cannons on Mirages and other aircraft since the mid-50s?
                      3. Foul skeptic
                        Foul skeptic 11 June 2022 10: 54
                        0
                        What the hell are 1500 meters? This is all advertising and not very honest.

                        You have already been given a video with the defeat of a group of people at 1400 meters. Yes, not horse food.
                2. 3danimal
                  3danimal 10 June 2022 13: 17
                  +1
                  You can shoot in combat, but only in special cases like hand-to-hand combat, otherwise it makes no sense.

                  This article presents a video where a MANPADS crew was found near the direction of the helicopter.
                  If the Ka-52 had a turret similar to Apache or Mi-28, then you wouldn’t have to lay down maneuvers for aiming weapons, it would be enough just to turn this turret.
                  The network also has a huge number of videos of the effective operation of the Apache cannon against insurgents.
                  Comparing the GSh-2-30K with the M230 is the same as comparing the AKM with the PPSh, the caliber is the same, but the cartridges are different.
                  Don't tell me about the excess power of fairy tales,

                  For the M230 there is a cumulative projectile, which roughly equalizes with the GSh in terms of armor penetration.
                  The lower initial velocity (800 m/s) and the pressure in the barrel make it possible to make the walls of the projectile thinner and increase the filling capacity of explosives. A separate issue is the sensitivity of shell fuses, for 2a42 I met complaints that the shell has time to dig into the ground before detonation (the effectiveness of the "filling" of the OFS for infantry).
                  Excessive recoil, which makes it problematic to shoot accurately from a helicopter turret not in the center of mass.
                  1. vovochkarzhevsky
                    vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 13: 47
                    +1
                    Do you seriously believe that a MANPADS calculation can be detected from the cockpit? laughing
                    Well, that's only if you're wildly lucky, but the anti-aircraft gunners are full to substitute. Alas. but in practice it is found out already after start-up.
                    Rollers should be handled with care. Very often, journalists are leaked videos from training grounds, and even simulators. laughing
  32. Artyom Khvaleba
    Artyom Khvaleba 9 June 2022 21: 36
    0
    Damn, I’ve already read dozens of articles and it all comes down to one thing - it’s expensive. Then I have a question about couch wars and the General Staff. , which, among other things, have stepped up the involvement of everything that the military-industrial complex of developed countries has? It’s just not clear to an idiot that in this area we are shamelessly behind and are still exporting on the Soviet backlog, including in terms of personnel. Well, we can’t compete with the United States , how it doesn’t reach some here. If we speak in numbers, then 3-4% of the RF GDP are trying to overcome 38% of world GDP, if the NWO continues to drag on, then it’s clear how it all will end for Russia. And it’s time to start appreciating human life and severely punish for all miscalculations (we have now, if someone has not forgotten the demographic hole), iron can be restored, but you can’t return the people who died.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 10 June 2022 00: 06
      -1
      why the hell are you starting full-scale hostilities, which, among other things, have stepped up the involvement of everything that the military-industrial complex of developed countries has?

      Because they believed their TV, which was broadcasting that stupid Ukrainians would immediately (in days and even hours) scatter, because they only know how to jump. And a few "national battalions" will immediately be defeated by the #2 army in the world.
      All this will happen as quickly as in Crimea in 2014, and the West will only have time to open its mouth in surprise and will not impose sanctions.
      Results on the face, a complete success.
      If we talk in numbers, then 3-4% of the Russian GDP are trying to overcome 38% of the world GDP, if the NWO continues to be delayed, then it is clear how all this will end for Russia

      There are individuals here who believe that without our resources their entire advanced industry will quickly fall apart and we will soon become number one in the world. Well, after China. In general, China will help us.
      And it's time to start appreciating human life

      The history of many of our wars says that they did not bother with such trifles. And the current leadership honors these traditions.
      When for the last 20 years everyone was picking up “we can repeat it”, few people thought that the path to Berlin would take tens of millions of lives.
      Or those 150 thousand buried in Finland, without capturing Finland.
      1. Artyom Khvaleba
        Artyom Khvaleba 20 June 2022 00: 37
        -3
        Are we on the edge of a precipice?
  33. vovochkarzhevsky
    vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 11: 34
    +2
    The worst thing on the Mi-28 is the tail rotor lowered to the very ground. Landing outside the airfield is contraindicated for such a helicopter, without preliminary cleaning of the site.
    We on the Mi-24 kept chopping bushes with our tails, but here there is a pipe in general.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 10 June 2022 14: 11
      -1
      Tail rotor too large, short keel.
      What prevented you from taking it as on "Apache" or "UH-60"? Were lazy, didn’t think of it or didn’t have enough budget request


      The safest thing is fenestron, IMHO.
      1. vovochkarzhevsky
        vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 23: 04
        +1
        Tail rotor too large, short keel.
        What prevented you from taking it as on "Apache" or "UH-60"? Were lazy, didn’t think of it or didn’t have enough budget


        What are you carrying. The size of the screw, the keel, it's all for a reason, calculations, compromises. Another thing is that the tail wheel scheme itself is not the best solution for a helicopter.


        The safest thing is fenestron, IMHO.


        There, too, not everything is smooth. Safer, in this vein, is a coaxial circuit.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 10 June 2022 23: 34
          -1
          The size of the screw, the keel, it's all for a reason, calculations, compromises.

          See how it's done on Apache. Without breaking the tail wheel and stabilizer, you will not reach the propeller to the ground.
          Safer, in this vein, is a coaxial circuit.

          Much more difficult, no? 2 swashplates, risk of blade overlap?
          1. vovochkarzhevsky
            vovochkarzhevsky 10 June 2022 23: 40
            0
            See how it's done on Apache. Without breaking the tail wheel and stabilizer, you will not reach the propeller to the ground.

            Yes, and here the earth as such. Any debris on it, the branches of the bushes are already a danger.
            Much more difficult, no? 2 swashplates, risk of blade overlap?


            More difficult, but the tail rotor, its transmission, control, is also not a sample of simplicity. But it was about the risks of landing outside the airfield. In addition, the coaxial circuit never twists.
  34. 3danimal
    3danimal 10 June 2022 14: 04
    0
    What does the operation of the warhead of a MANPADS missile in this area lead to? If there is a “breaking” force moment and the beam is damaged by an explosion, it simply breaks in half and “folds”. The helicopter instantly loses control, and from that moment the crew is essentially doomed.

    After hitting 1-2 Starstreak tungsten darts and detonating 400g of explosives inside the air vehicle (in each of them), any helicopter will feel bad. Goodbye hydraulics, engine or pilot (if we are talking about the Ka-52, then both pilots at once).
  35. Gunther
    Gunther 12 June 2022 22: 52
    -1
    Quote: Author
    Presence of congested
    armored capsules reduce all these parameters ....

    I can’t keep up with the rapid flight of the author’s thoughts, how is this connected with:
    Quote: Author
    ... if in the composition
    weapons we had analogues of a rocket
    "Helfire"?

    Well, only if you do not mean the elder and the uncle in Kyiv.
  36. DominickS
    DominickS 13 June 2022 13: 19
    0
    The fact that Hellfire analogues are necessary has already been written many times over. The current SVO only confirmed this. It is paradoxical that we still cannot give birth to an analogue of a rocket that appeared back in the late 70s.
  37. Baikal57
    Baikal57 9 July 2022 12: 47
    0
    Mi-28 will show itself better against MANPADS with its armor.
  38. eskulap
    eskulap 10 July 2022 06: 46
    0
    Any crap is being discussed, in fact, the main problem of efficiency is that there is no search and target designation system, that is, it should be like in a computer. The game - labels are displayed on the screen - a tank, an infantry fighting vehicle, etc. the turntable flies, releases kamikaze drones or homing missiles or nurses to the edge. The turntable is accompanied by either drones, MANPADS traps, or some kind of kaz is needed and voila - the targets are hit, the turntables are intact, but it doesn’t matter whether it will be or we