Military Review

Reformatting of consciousness. Foundation Guardians

149
Reformatting of consciousness. Foundation Guardians
Nicholas Roerich was no longer such a zealous admirer of S. S. Uvarov and his "theory of official nationality", but he perfectly felt this very nationality and its origins, and ... being a talented artist, conveyed it in his painting. "Duel of Alexander Nevsky with Jarl Birger". State Russian Museum, St. Petersburg


Fly away on the wings of wind
You are our native land, our native song,
Where we sang to you freely,
Where we were so pleased with you.
There, under the sultry sky, the air is full of bliss,
There, under the voice of the sea, the mountains slumber in the clouds.
There the sun shines so brightly,
Native mountains flooding with light,
In the valleys, roses bloom profusely,
And the nightingales sing in the green forests;
And sweet grapes are growing.
There you are more free, song ...
You go there and fly away!

Song of the slaves from the opera "Prince Igor" by A. P. Borodin

Difficult история humanity. We got acquainted, albeit very superficially, with attempts to change the consciousness of many people for the better, even if “this side” belonged only to quite certain people. Be that as it may, both people like the Cathars and individuals like Thomas More or Tommaso Campanella wanted only one thing - to improve the lives of the people around them. Or at least show them what this "improved life" could be. But ... there were also those who did not want any "reformatting" at all. In their opinion, everything around them was good and should remain so in the future. These people played the role of "guardians of the foundations", and their influence was very great. Today we are going to talk about just such people. Moreover, these will be our compatriots of the beginning and middle of the XNUMXth century.


"Pagan temple". N. Roerich. State Russian Museum, St. Petersburg

What was that time? Yes, very interesting, I must say. After the assassination of Paul I and the accession of Alexander I, Russian society was waiting for the start of liberal reforms and welcomed the first, albeit very timid, steps of the new emperor and his “young friends” along this path. For the first time, many Russian peasants, dressed in soldier's greatcoats, visited the countries of the West and saw that people live there no worse than in Russia, only without landlords. Well, the officers - landlords or their children, for the most part, also saw a lot of things, and among many of them a real fermentation of minds began. But there were also those who, having seen abroad, still did not want any innovations. But they did not yet have a clear system of political views at that time.


"The city is being built." N. Roerich. State Tretyakov Gallery, Moscow

True, even before the Patriotic War of 1812, the great Russian historian Nikolai Mikhailovich Karamzin, a man of pronounced conservative views, sent a note to Emperor Alexander "On Ancient and New Russia", in which he sharply criticized the liberal project of state reforms by M. M. Speransky, and argued that the autocracy in Russia must be preserved forever. Instead of reforms, Karamzin suggested ... to find 50 sensible governors and worthy clerics who would support morality among the people. It’s just that from Karamzin’s point of view, all the shortcomings in the Russian state were not connected with the vices of the system, but only with the negative qualities of individual people - governors, officials, etc. Appoint “good”, “honest” people, and things will work out, I thought he is downright childishly naive, but it is not for nothing that it is said that for every wise man there is enough simplicity. At the same time, he assigned a special role to the imperial power in Russia. Any attempt to limit it can lead to riots and anarchy.

And - as Karamzin looked into the water. Alexander I did not like what he saw in the West either. He saw this as a direct threat to his autocracy.


"Sinister". N. Roerich. State Museum of Arts of the Republic of Kazakhstan named after A. Kasteeva. Almaty

As a result, at the end of the reign of Alexander I, the reaction clearly triumphed. So, the Ministry of Public Education was renamed the Ministry of Spiritual Affairs and Public Education for a reason. Its main goal was the spread of religion, and by no means enlightenment.

But the true flowering of conservatism in Russia came in the era of Emperor Nicholas I. The same Decembrists got not only, so to speak, "physically", but also morally. The poet F.I. Tyutchev called them "victims of reckless thought". And A. I. Herzen in his memoirs “The Past and Thoughts” wrote:

“The tone of society was changing dramatically ... No one (except women) dared to show participation, to utter a warm word about relatives, about friends who had been shaken by the hand yesterday, but who were taken during the night. On the contrary, there were wild fanatics of slavery, some of meanness, while others are worse - disinterestedly.

But best of all, Nicholas I himself outlined the vector of the Russian mentality in his manifesto of July 13, 1826:

“This intent was not in the properties, not in the customs of the Russians. Compiled by a handful of monsters, it infected their nearest community, depraved hearts and bold dreaminess, but did not penetrate, could not penetrate further. The heart of Russia was and will be impregnable for him. Not from bold dreams, always destructive, but from above, domestic institutions are gradually improved, shortcomings are supplemented, abuses are corrected.

Like this! Over! And nothing else!


"Pechory. Monastery walls and towers. N. Roerich. State Museum of Oriental Art, Moscow

To combat "rebellious and disastrous spirit of the West"Already in July 1826, the III Department of His Imperial Majesty's Own Chancellery was created, headed by General A. X. Benckendorff. That is, nothing but the secret police. At the same time, the III Branch paid special attention to the then journal periodicals and polemics in literature. Hardly any magazine mentioned the revolution or liberal ideas. Benckendorff immediately invited the guilty editor to his place and made him a "purely paternal suggestion", after which ... "much changed." But it did not change - the publication was closed. Denunciation was encouraged, personal letters were opened...

But the government acted not only through repression. On instructions from above, some writers and publicists were invited to take up the creation of such a political ideology that could justify the inviolability of the existing order or, in the words of A. S. Pushkin, “the need for autocracy and the charms of the whip».

And one of these “guardians of the foundations”, whose merit was the development of an official conservative ideology, was Sergey Semyonovich Uvarov (1786–1855), who died just during the Crimean War and, perhaps, still had time to see that ... "not everything is fine in the Kingdom of Denmark". However, even if he saw, he could not change anything!

He was brilliantly educated for his time. He worked as a diplomat in Paris and Vienna, was acquainted with Goethe, Humboldt and Madame de Stael.


"Foreign guests". N. Roerich. State Russian Museum, St. Petersburg

Leaving the diplomatic service, in 1811 he became a trustee of the St. Petersburg educational district. After the victory over Napoleon, he began to write on political topics and, above all, condemned the revolution, or, as he himself wrote, “popular anarchy". He saw the reasons for Napoleon's failure in the fact that the Russian people, after the surrender of Moscow, led "national war", and only thanks to this"national warNapoleon's army was eventually defeated. So about "cudgel of the people's warTolstoy did not invent it himself. He took this from Uvarov.


"Count Sergei Uvarov". Hood. V. A. Golike (1833)

The unity of the tsar and the people is the ideal of the social structure of Russia according to Uvarov. At the same time, the people have only one right: to obey the “lawful” sovereign. Like Benckendorff, and the writers Bulgarin, Grech, and, finally, Nicholas I himself, Uvarov considered it necessary to fight the liberal "direction of minds", the eradication of hotbeds of dissent, the main of which he considered ... universities, which in Russia"were bad". But Uvarov also understood that the repressions of the Third Division alone would not help the cause. It is necessary to create a new idea of ​​Russia and its place in the world, as well as a different view of the situation within the country itself.


Count's coat of arms of Uvarov

In 1833, Uvarov was appointed minister of public education. And the new minister took up the fact that he decided to find what exactly Russia differs from the West, where social cataclysms and revolutions are so frequent, and also spreads everywhere.folk anarchy". It was then that Uvarov made the "important" conclusion that

“Russia has retained a warm faith in salvific principles, without which it cannot prosper, grow stronger, and live.”

There were three of them, in his opinion, which he announced when he took office:

“Our common duty is to ensure that public education is carried out in the united spirit of autocracy, Orthodoxy and nationality.”


Portrait of Sergei Uvarov by Ya. K. Kanevsky (1844)

And it was not just a slogan. All of these concepts had a very specific meaning. In Russia, as Uvarov and his supporters believed, for a number of reasons, in particular, natural-geographical and historical, a quite definite method of government has developed: an unlimited monarchy, and since “it happened so”, then there could be no restrictions on autocracy, since it was in they are the cause of unrest and anarchy.

Uvarov considered the Orthodox faith the basis of "public and family happiness". Well, it’s clear that you can’t argue with religion. It is easiest to declare any dissident a heretic, accuse him of "unbelief", instead of arguing with him. Here everything was the same as in ... the West, where the bodies belonged to the monarchs, and the souls belonged to the Inquisition!

There were problems with the "nationality". It was not Uvarov who invented it, that's the trouble, but the famous German philosophers Kant, Fichte and Hegel, that is, foreigners, wrote about it. And the Russian liberals did not shy away from it at all. We got out of this unpleasant situation by saturating the concept of "nationality" with new content. Now its essence was in uncomplaining obedience to the authorities and the king. And these, they say, are qualities inherent in the Russian nation. Submission to the supreme power, which, as you know, is from God. Well, all manifestations of discontent among the people are the result of the "pernicious" influence of the West. From here came the opposition of Russia to the West, the desire to constantly prove that Russia is better, stronger, more powerful than all European countries put together. It got to the point that Prince P. A. Vyazemsky called such praises “leavened patriotism”, and this term turned out to be so successful that it has survived to our time.


The opera "Prince Igor", theater and painting, literature and sculpture of Russia are full of truly folk works, with official theories connected ... not too much, but not worse from this. Frame from the film "Sadko" (1952)

The funny thing is that, speaking out against the spread of everything Western in Russia, Uvarov, in complete contradiction to the postulates of his own ideology, literally raised the level of Russian education. Both gymnasiums and universities reach the European level under him, and Moscow University has become one of the leading educational institutions of this type in Europe. He scolded the West, but restored the practice of sending Russian scientists abroad, although ... after all, they could very well pick up “Voltairianism” there. Moreover, when in 1849, after the suppression of the uprising in Hungary, the authorities again began persecuting universities, it was he who wrote a pamphlet in their defense, which Nicholas I disliked so much that he wrote:

“You must obey, and keep your reasoning to yourself.”

And after that, Uvarov did not humiliate himself before the tsar, but resigned, leaving the post of minister.

In general, the figure of Uvarov is very ambivalent. He guarded the foundations, created the "theory of official nationality" that the autocrat liked, however, when it came to his own interests, simply (well, let's not write "spit on them"), but tolerantly, let's say - in a very noticeable way for society ignored them. So, blaming the West for moral decay, and putting Orthodox dogmas at the forefront of the behavior of the subjects of the empire, he adhered to an unconventional orientation. Moreover, he openly expressed his homosexual affections in the appointment of his lover Dondukov-Korsakov to the post of vice-president of the Academy of Sciences, which A. S. Pushkin caustically ridiculed in his famous epigram. And in general, the St. Petersburg society reproached him for many unseemly acts of a personal nature. But… it so happens very often that what we demand from everyone else, we do not always apply to ourselves! So S.S. Uvarov was one of those people. However, today it is not his homosexual inclinations that are important to us, but the theory he created, which had a huge impact on the formation of the consciousness of more than one generation of Russians.

To be continued ...
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  1. ee2100
    ee2100 8 June 2022 05: 38
    +19
    I wonder where the VOSh noticed attempts to reformat consciousness in Russia in the XNUMXth century, and who? A narrow stratum of the reading part of the empire?
    The heroes of the article performed their work based on the understanding of the tasks assigned to them. And they did it quite successfully.
    The fact that Pushkin wrote the epigram is quite logical, some of the poet's works were criticized.
    VOSH, in the best traditions of modern propagandists, could not help but "crawl" into the bed of Count Uvarov!
    According to his logic, is homosexuality also the influence of the West?
    The real reformatting of consciousness began in the late 80s and early 90s in the post-Soviet space, and the results are already reaping!
    1. kalibr
      8 June 2022 05: 48
      -12
      It's sad, but you're just stupid!
      1. Woodman
        Woodman 8 June 2022 09: 01
        +19
        Quote: kalibr
        You are just stupid!

        Quote from the same article:
        It is easiest to declare any dissident a heretic, accuse him of "unbelief", instead of arguing with him
        Or call me stupid...
        1. kalibr
          8 June 2022 11: 54
          -6
          Quote: Lesovik
          argue with him

          You read the article, you read the comment. What is there to argue with?
        2. ee2100
          ee2100 8 June 2022 17: 45
          +8
          The subsite star doesn't even understand the meaning of the terminology he uses.
          To reformat means to change the format.
          Which of the characters in the article did this? Or in earlier articles, under the same awkward heading.
          It became possible to reformat society only due to globalization. Even the Bolsheviks, in my opinion, did not follow this path, but relied on a cultural revolution for the poorest class and for the youth.
          1. haron
            haron 12 June 2022 15: 32
            -3
            Let's make it easier. Here is your claim.
            Quote: ee2100
            To reformat means to change the format.
            Which of the characters in the article did this? Or in earlier articles, under the same awkward heading.

            And here is the topic of the article.
            Quote: article
            These people played the role of "guardians of the foundations", and their influence was very great. Today we are going to talk about just such people. Moreover, these will be our compatriots of the beginning and middle of the XNUMXth century.

            The author is right. It is pointless to argue with those who did not read or did not understand the essence of the article.
  2. Edward Vashchenko
    Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 06: 02
    +9
    Vyacheslav Olegovich good morning!
    Thanks for the article and especially the illustration.
    On my own behalf, I would like to add that, on the whole, Uvarov’s assessment was given very well, especially in terms of the rise of education, I would add that this Uvarov trinity arose under the influence of the growth of national movements in Europe, in particular in Germany, which was heading full steam ahead towards capitalism.
    And nationalism does not happen without capitalism: these are interconnected phenomena.
    The formula is not just then alien to the majority of the population of Russia, but simply an empty phrase. Since the “conservatism” of Nikolai Pavlovich is not some completely unique “Russian” phenomenon, but a pan-European trend.
    This is a general crisis of the feudal system of Russia (serfdom) and a period of searching for a way out of the situation. Attempts to maintain the status quo for the feudal lords (nobility), and he did not succeed very well, unlike his son ...
    hi
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 8 June 2022 08: 10
      +8
      And nationalism does not happen without capitalism: these are interconnected phenomena.
      A very dubious postulate. The Tootsies won't believe you.
      My respect, Edward!
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 08: 32
        +8
        Anton, good morning!
        The Tutsi genocide was caused not by the growth of nationalism among the Hutos, but by ethnic contradictions.
        In black Africa, such "genocide" was practiced everywhere, examples, causes and essence are given in the classic work of Levy-Bruhl on primitive consciousness.
        The Mongol-Tatars carried out genocide not as a result, again, of the growth of their national self-consciousness, but for utilitarian reasons related to their economic activities or ideas of honor (family feud). It is unlikely that their genocide can be explained by the growth of nationalist sentiments among the Mongols.
        Nationalism is exclusively a phenomenon associated with capitalism, and begins from the period of its formation. This is not an opinion, this is a scientific fact.
        Therefore, by the way, in Russia this phenomenon is born only at the beginning of the twentieth century, not earlier. 85% of the peasants hardly shared the enthusiasm of Suvorov.
        There is no equality between nationalism and genocide. The genocide has existed since the beginning of the existence of mankind and was caused primarily by a fierce struggle for food supply.
        Yours faithfully,
        hi
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 8 June 2022 08: 37
          +9
          Nationalism is exclusively a phenomenon associated with capitalism, and begins from the period of its formation. This is not an opinion, this is a scientific fact.

          As far as I can tell, this is the opinion of our historiography.
          In the West, they approach everything more flexibly, so they write, for example, about the nationalism of ancient Greece.
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 09: 10
            +5
            Denis,
            good day,
            yes, I know. But even there they can be mistaken, especially since the same school of antiquities or Byzantines, medievalists, we certainly have a world level.
            By the way, I will soon publish an article where I very indirectly touch upon the theories in the West.
            I myself proceed as far as they are scientifically objective, and not written in the west or east laughing
            hi
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 8 June 2022 09: 33
              +7
              Welcome
              I don’t know about the Byzantines, but for me the superiority of Western medieval studies and the ancient school is obvious.
              Everything that I wrote below is not the product of a special study, but simply the sum of observations.
              At the forefront of the Western school is the concept of identity, identity, which is realized on many levels.
              The Greeks were aware of their common Greek identity, and supranational identity. They felt their polyethnic origin - it is enough to recall the eponyms, but apparently cultural closeness was quite obvious to them.
              The dream of the ancient Greeks about the unification of Greece is known to everyone who has studied the subject. The unification under Macedonian rule aroused ambivalent feelings - whether the conquerors are Hellenized barbarians or whether this is also a product of Greek culture.
              Thus, in ancient Greece there was quite a nationalism. Moreover, nationalism is rather cultural (not blood). There is a common Greek identity - "Hellenes" and "barbarians", there is a desire for unification.
              Moreover, the same pre-Mongolian Russia was literally one step away from the concept of nationalism. "Russian Land" in "The Tale of Igor's Campaign" and "The Tale of the Destruction of the Russian Land" is not a geographical, but an ethnic and cultural category, all of whose inhabitants are aware of their closeness, i.e. identity. From the call to leave strife to the idea of ​​unification is literally one step.
              And capitalism, in my opinion, has absolutely nothing to do with it.
              1. Edward Vashchenko
                Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 09: 40
                +3
                Denis,
                you have the right, but this does not explain anything, but the stage theory puts everything on the shelves.
                hi
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 8 June 2022 09: 44
                  +4
                  For me, in this case, it is enough to fix the phenomenon. Nationalism in these examples is obvious to me.
              2. mihaylov
                mihaylov 8 June 2022 10: 11
                +4
                The Greeks were aware of their common Greek identity, and supranational identity.

                Did the others not realize? like the Celts?
                Moreover, the same pre-Mongolian Russia was literally one step away from the concept of nationalism ..... this is not a geographical, but an ethnic and cultural category, all of whose inhabitants are aware of their closeness, i.e. identity. From the call to leave strife to the idea of ​​unification is literally one step.

                The similarity of pre-Mongolian Russia and Ancient Greece was noticed a long time ago, and they wrote a lot about it, only this is explained rather by a similar stage in the development of statehood - a polis type, which needs some time to outgrow. And nationalism seems to me to have nothing to do with it at all.
                Thus, in ancient Greece there was quite a nationalism. Moreover, nationalism is rather cultural (not blood). There is a common Greek identity - "Hellenes" and "barbarians", there is a desire for unification.

                A very shaky, in my opinion, construct. hi
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 8 June 2022 10: 23
                  +5
                  And nationalism seems to me to have nothing to do with it at all.

                  And I believe that nationalism can appear with any somewhat stable statehood and written tradition. It may not appear.
                  Did the others not realize? like the Celts?

                  Maybe they realized. Maybe they also had calls for unification and the creation of a common state. But history has not preserved this for us, and in terms of building a stable statehood, they are doing much worse than the Greeks.
                  A very shaky, in my opinion, construct.

                  I have nowhere declared my absolute knowledge and understanding

                  PS
                  Did the others not realize? like the Celts?

                  The Germans of the VPN era did not exactly realize
                  ZYY
                  Iranian tribes also centuries-old confrontation Turan-Iran
                  1. Edward Vashchenko
                    Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 11: 32
                    +4
                    But the problem is that Western theorists, in this regard, often sin with "sensationalism."
                    For lack of time, I note:
                    The Greeks don’t have nationalism from the word at all, nationalism is not some kind of chaotic set of signs, the principle of “one’s own” - “alien” or “Greeks” - “barbarian” exists with the advent of man, from this we are not a modem, from a scientific point of view, of course, say that with the advent of man, nationalism appeared. With a populist and for a sensation - of course we can.
                    Neither Plato nor Aristotle know or write anything about nationalism.
                    If in Germany nationalism began with its unification around Prussia, then where does the "nationalism" of city-states or territories begin? communities, but from nothing: when did Sparta become one with Athens?
                    Until Macedonian repaired all terr. nothing happened to the community of Greece, in short ... there is no ground for classical nationalism in classical Greece at all. The Greeks did not become nationalists even in their own state - Byzantium, after the 7th century ...
                    Something like this.
                    Yours faithfully,
                    hi
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 8 June 2022 12: 10
                      +4
                      The Greeks do not have nationalism from the word at all, nationalism is not some kind of chaotic set of signs, the principle of "one's own" - "alien" or "Greeks" - "barbarian" exists with the advent of man

                      Here we are talking about the desire-need to build a state from "their" and for "their"
                      Neither Plato nor Aristotle know or write anything about nationalism.

                      Aristotle and Plato considered the polis to be the optimal and natural form of society's existence. At the same time, both were convinced of the objective superiority of the Greeks and considered them a suprapolis community and an objective essence. The forms of suprapolis political associations in Greece are well known.
                      Until Macedonian repaired all terr. nothing happened to the community of Greece, in short ... there is no ground for classical nationalism in classical Greece at all.

                      There is an idea of ​​unity, there is an idea of ​​superiority
                      Point of view 1. Philip and Alexander are products of Hellenic culture and then fit well into the trend of cultural nationalism, interrupted by Alexander's attempt to establish a syncretic civilization
                      Point of view 2. Philip and Alexander are foreign invaders and gravediggers of the national concept. But even then it does not negate his, nationalism, (possible) existence.
                      Fundamental point:
                      The building of a nation-state means the triumph of nationalism, but it only means its mature form. The failure to build a nation-state does not in any way indicate the absence of nationalism, but only its insufficient strength.
                      The Greeks did not become nationalists even in their own state - Byzantium, after the 7th century ...

                      Because the imperial idea has prevailed, this is a completely different problem. The legacy of Justinian was crumbling before our eyes, but the imperial memory and claims remained.
                      1. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 8 June 2022 12: 26
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Building a nation state means the triumph of nationalism

                        Are there examples of building nation states in antiquity / the Middle Ages?
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 June 2022 12: 31
                        +2
                        Japan, before the Meiji era is not suitable?
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 12: 32
                        +3
                        I cannot clearly answer this question. Alas
                        Perhaps Portugal from the 13th or 14th century, perhaps England from the 15th century, France, perhaps also from the 15th century.
                        Threat By the way, Israel and Judea before the Persian conquest. It would be necessary to re-read what I have on the subject. But there, almost the only indicator is the narrowness of society and the originality of religion and culture. But at first glance - "Israel for the Jews" is a direct triumph of the national idea
                        ZYY If we discard Eurocentrism, then we need to pick Japan
                        You can see for yourself that it is impossible for one person to collect the material, the topic is too extensive.
                        Well, again, first you need to work out and agree oncriteria of the nation state
                      4. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 8 June 2022 12: 45
                        +3
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Perhaps Portugal from the 13th or 14th century, perhaps England from the 15th century, France, perhaps also from the 15th century.

                        This is if we consider as they are now called "early modern states" national. But can they be considered as such at this time? I think it's debatable.
                        Japan, before the Meiji era is not suitable?

                        To be honest, I don’t know, I confess I almost don’t know Japanese history.
                        Thesis
                        The failure to build a nation-state does not in any way indicate the absence of nationalism, but only its insufficient strength.
                        It seems doubtful to me: that is, all attempts to create a nation-state from existing nationalism before the era of the New Age (but rather really later) turn out to be unsuccessful. Maybe turn the cause and effect and then everything will fall into place? The nation-state produces nationalism, not nationalism, the nation-state.
                        And elements of something can always be found in almost all eras.
                        For example: "the failure to build a capitalist state does not in any way indicate the absence of capitalism, but only its insufficient strength."
                        Do they find elements of capitalism in antiquity? Quite. hi
                      5. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 June 2022 12: 57
                        +3
                        It seems to me that Japanese nationalism in the first half of the twentieth century originates precisely in the era of the shogunate.
                      6. Edward Vashchenko
                        Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 13: 53
                        +2
                        Just like in French feudalism, there are roots of the French bourgeois revolution.
                        Japanese nationalism in the first half of the XNUMXth century
                        - and there is a result of the development of capitalism in Japan, and all these tsatski left from the shogunate went into action: good does not disappear.
                      7. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 13: 02
                        +4
                        I have tried to single out two criteria for nationalism.
                        1. The concept of "our". Not just "population", rural-xenophobic, but much more extensive, cultural, historical, covering even traditionally warring entities. Like the ancient Hellenes
                        2. The desire of these people to start to leave hostility and direct energy for joint campaigns against neighbors - "barbarians" or "nasty". Over time, it transforms into the need for a single control center.
                        The Greeks had everything, even the last need, but it had not yet become predominant.
                        Maybe turn the cause and effect and then everything will fall into place? The nation-state breeds nationalism

                        For me, everything is in its place.
                        General need - idea - strategy - project - result. This is all the concept of the realization of nationalism. already existing
                        If the French king already in the 15th century says: "I have nothing against the fact that in the lands where they speak English, the English king rules, but where they speak French, the king of France should rule." - then this is quite a nationalist concept and the idea of ​​a national state, with already existing nationalism. And the “goddons” that interfere with this will be eliminated. Without any capitalism
                      8. Edward Vashchenko
                        Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 14: 00
                        +3
                        By the way, Toynbee came to mind here, who talked about how the Greeks in the new Greece, independent of the Ottomans, were taught to call themselves Greeks (Greeks), they then considered themselves "Romans".
                        This is an illustration of the Greek "nationalism"
                      9. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 14: 22
                        +4
                        This is an illustration of the Greek "nationalism"

                        Everything is simple here. The development of Greek society was deformed by the Roman conquest. For centuries, the Roman imperial idea prevailed. Romei means "Romans". Naturally, such a legacy must be overcome for centuries. Imperial temptation he is
                      10. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 8 June 2022 14: 43
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        1. The concept of "our". Not just "population", rural-xenophobic, but much more extensive, cultural, historical, covering even traditionally warring entities. Like the ancient Hellenes
                        2. The desire of these people to start to leave hostility and direct energy for joint campaigns against neighbors - "barbarians" or "nasty". Over time, it transforms into the need for a single control center.

                        In principle, there are no special questions on both points, but I don’t understand why these are the criteria of nationalism?
                        General need - idea - strategy - project - result. This is all the concept of the realization of nationalism. already existing

                        Well, didn’t the concept of nationalism be realized for a long time: 2 thousand years have passed and why was it finally realized only in a capitalist society? maybe there is a relationship?
                        If the French king already in the 15th century says

                        He could say anything, if we listen to Hamurabi, then we will have to reformat everything in general.
                        It seems to me that we will somehow find the presence of elements of nationalism in any society up to monkeys.
                        And what about the Romans? what prevented them from building a nation state, because these 2 points are directly about them:
                        1. The concept of "our". Not just "population", rural-xenophobic, but much more extensive, cultural, historical, covering even traditionally warring entities. Like the ancient Hellenes
                        2. The desire of these people to start to leave hostility and direct energy for joint campaigns against neighbors - "barbarians" or "nasty". Over time, it transforms into the need for a single control center.
                      11. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 15: 22
                        +4
                        In principle, there are no special questions on both points, but I don’t understand why these are the criteria of nationalism?

                        Name yours, no problem.
                        Threat For me, this is nationalism because people are aware of themselves as something more than a tribe or a policy, they are aware of the cultural and historical connection, what makes people, people and further a nation.
                        Well, didn’t the concept of nationalism be realized for a long time: 2 thousand years have passed and why was it finally realized only in a capitalist society? maybe there is a relationship?

                        There is a connection with the general progress - the dissemination of national ideas, the development of education, the strengthening of self-awareness. Under capitalism, all this happened much faster - the stage is later, the degree of development is higher. There is a connection in this regard. There is also a connection with the third estate. I dispute only the exclusivity of nationalism for capitalism.
                        And what about the Romans? what prevented them from building a nation state, because these 2 points are directly about them:

                        No . Point one is not at all under the Romans. Citizens of Rome are residents of the policy of Rome and layering colonies in the lands of neighbors .. There is nothing "above the policy". The essence is exclusively small-town, purely patriarchal. The status of a citizen was jealously guarded. A radical leap took place after the Allied War, but there they received citizenship all italics. Immediately appeared polyethnic a structure where Latin Romans were a huge minority. And then the imperial concept. This is the verdict of the national idea.
                        PS
                        It seems to me that we will somehow find the presence of elements of nationalism in any society up to monkeys.

                        No. For example, nationalism was not given to the Germans for many centuries. Desperately clutched at tribal identity then regionality and empire.
                      12. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 8 June 2022 16: 20
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And then the imperial concept. This is the verdict of the national idea.

                        The Russian Empire, say, the second half of the 19th century, is it an empire or a national state?
                        And the English Empire, say the Victorian era?
                        For example, nationalism was not given to the Germans for many centuries. Desperately clutched at tribal identity then regionality and empire.

                        maybe it's because they just delayed the creation of a nation state? and nationalism they later arose? but then how violently then proceeded.
                        Citizens of Rome are residents of the policy of Rome and layering colonies in the lands of neighbors .. There is nothing "above the policy". The essence is exclusively small-town, purely patriarchal. The status of a citizen was jealously guarded.

                        Everything is according to the Greek scenario, only the Greeks were never able to overcome this barrier, although there were “visits”, but the Romans were able, albeit with difficulty and not the first time. Regional specificity, but otherwise - the same type. And the empire of Alexander our Megas, again, it seems to me quite possible to compare with the Roman one: did she live less? but its fragments, quite rather big and more than multi-ethnic, existed for a long time.
                      13. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 16: 28
                        +1
                        The Russian Empire, say, the second half of the 19th century, is it an empire or a national state?

                        Empire
                        And the English Empire, say the Victorian era?

                        Empire
                        maybe it's because they just delayed the creation of a nation state? and nationalism they later arose? but then how violently then proceeded.

                        I wrote about this and wrote why not everyone had nationalism at an "early age"
                        Everything according to the Greek script

                        No. Greece community. Italy is not. Italy is a patchwork of many nations that did not feel like members of a common body. It is fundamentally.
                        Threat The difference between the Equs, Etruscans and Samnites is much greater than between the Athenians, Thebans and Spartans. In Italy, just a hodgepodge of peoples alien to each other.
                      14. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 8 June 2022 16: 44
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And the English Empire, say the Victorian era?

                        Empire

                        Empire, and nationalism flourishes and even its extreme forms are born.
                        It is fundamentally.
                        Threat The difference between the Equs, Etruscans and Samnites is much greater than between the Athenians, Thebans and Spartans. In Italy, just a hodgepodge of peoples alien to each other.

                        This moment does not seem to me fundamental, similar socio-economic conditions are much more important. Yes, and are they so by the 1st century BC? were already alien to each other peoples, most likely no longer.
                      15. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 June 2022 17: 26
                        +1
                        Empire, and nationalism flourishes and even its extreme forms are born.
                        Victorian England is very difficult for us to understand. When you start to figure it out, you think: the serfs of Saltychikha are still lucky.
                      16. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 8 June 2022 17: 32
                        +1
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        the serfs of Saltychikha were still lucky.

                        Not for everyone, but for those who survived.
                        Victorian England is very difficult for us to understand.
                        I'm not even trying to go there yet. hi
                      17. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 June 2022 19: 15
                        +1
                        Legal relations in Victorian England, against the background of social relations, is a paragraph that, as is well known, is not treated by Russian medicine.
                      18. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 17: 33
                        +2
                        This moment does not seem to me fundamental, similar socio-economic conditions are much more important. Yes, and are they so by the 1st century BC? were already alien to each other peoples, most likely no longer.

                        Essentially a sense of community. I showed by examples that the Greeks felt themselves as a community. I do not know of similar examples for Italians.
                        K 1 to. n. they have an Allied war, then civil wars, then the principate. Empire became the dominant idea.
                        Empire, while nationalism flourishes and even its extreme forms are born

                        I'm kind of trying to show that nationalism can arise in different OEFs and with different vectors of development. No contradictions. Moreover, nationalism can be used both in support of the imperial project and against it.
                        Threat Rome Italian nationalism was simply not needed. For a range of reasons.
                      19. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 18: 05
                        +1
                        Empire, while nationalism flourishes and even its extreme forms are born

                        I did not notice right away, you changed the subject of the dispute. Apparently unintentionally.
                        The nationalism about which I started the discus is about what leads to the creation of nation-states. Here, a dispute about the connection with capitalism is possible, and I am even ready to partially recognize such a connection.
                        Nationalism in the Russian Empire and Victorian England is a much simpler form - a sense of national superiority and justification of an aggressive policy, jingoism, xenophobia. This is a primitive form and existed in various forms in almost any state and at any stage of development and has nothing to do with capitalism.
                        Roman! You learn to rule the peoples sovereignly - This is your art! - to impose the conditions of peace, to show mercy to the humble and to humble the arrogant by war!

                        It must be clearly understood that this nationalism does not aim to build a nation state. Empire is categorically contraindicated. Just as the expansionist, imperial path is contraindicated for the nation-state.
                      20. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 8 June 2022 20: 34
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        I did not notice right away, you changed the subject of the dispute. Apparently unintentionally.

                        Maybe! Apparently, by the end of the day, I finally got confused in these numerous nationalisms: here nationalism, there nationalism. hi
                        I do not know of similar examples for Italians.
                        K 1 to. n. they have an allied war
                        And the Allied War itself does not indicate that they already perceived themselves as a certain community? they did not demand independence, but civil rights.
                        This is a primitive form and existed in various forms in almost any state and at any stage of development and has nothing to do with capitalism.
                        Well, I do not think that this is a directly primitive form. Imperialist nationalism is a very terrible thing and serves very specific purposes of the period of imperialist capitalism and is most likely its offspring. And I won’t argue here, we can find analogies in societies of any period.
                      21. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 21: 06
                        +1
                        And the Allied War itself does not indicate that they already perceived themselves as a certain community?

                        I reasoned like this.
                        During the second Punic, there was no Italian community yet. I'm sure of it. After the first defeats, the Romans were left alone against Hannibal, they were supported only by the communities of Latium.
                        Allied war is a strange thing. Even Roman historians considered the claims of the Italics generally just. But at the same time illegal. The Romans considered the claims of the Italians unheard of impudence. That is, the Italians, perhaps, considered a community, but not in Rome. In Greece, there was no such ambiguity.
                        But again, time worked against the national concept. Imperial prevailed.
                        Returning to the beginning of the discussion. Nationalism was linked to nation-states and capitalism. That is, it is a relatively young construct. And at the same time, in the case of nation-states, it was unambiguously progressive, at least for its time. I tried to trace this "positivist" concept of nationalism and I believe that I find its features in ancient Greece, following the "Western" school. I don't see it in Ancient Rome. They are building an empire, not a community of Italians for Italians. Loyalty is important there, not national roots. Therefore, Gallic leaders are promoted to senators. The Roman concept of "their" seems to me at first too exclusive, purely polis, and then abruptly becomes too inclusive, "imperial". This can be written separately.
                        If we understand nationalism in a broad sense, including chauvinism, then yes, there is nothing to discuss. It has always been so. Moreover, already in the Roman era, such propaganda was very developed and sophisticated.
                      22. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 9 June 2022 10: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Returning to the beginning of the discussion. Nationalism was linked to nation-states and capitalism. That is, it is a relatively young construct. And at the same time, in the case of nation-states, it was unambiguously progressive, at least for its time. I tried to trace this "positivist" concept of nationalism and I believe that I find its features in ancient Greece, following the "Western" school.

                        Let me sum it up from my side.
                        I did not find the connection between the "nationalism of the ancient Greeks" and modern nationalism convincing, given that it leads to the creation of modern nation-states. And the proof of the formation of the “concept of nationalism” among the Greeks did not even seem convincing. Yes, there are definitely commonalities. It is far from news that the Greeks realized that they were quite unified cultural, linguistic, religious, etc. community, but at the same time lived in numerous small states. It is no news that all this has a certain typological similarity with the situation in pre-Mongol Russia. In my opinion, nothing more than a typical situation of ordinary chauvinism and xenophobia, characteristic of all times and peoples, but due to the higher development of science and philosophy, brought to a slightly higher level. I understand why the Greeks are given, since the state of the sources allows all this to be covered quite well, but most likely we will see a similar situation in other societies: among the same Sumerians or Akkadians or some Mayan Indians, etc. That is, probably quite massive and typical of almost all societies, at least for many. And of course, it is possible to sum up the “roots” of modern nationalism under this, but it is overly strained, for me it’s like deriving the roots of modern capitalism from antiquity or even more ancient: it is possible, of course, and even to some extent it will be correct, because everything eventually grows from there. In general, no more scholasticism.
                        Therefore, while the traditional interpretation of the origin of nationalism as a consequence of the creation of modern (I mean modern times) states that arose on the basis of a new economic basis - capitalism, seems more logical and convincing.
                        And at the end a couple of remarks:
                        1) Regarding the fact that the Germans so lacked nationalism: I’m not at all sure about this. With the era of VPN, everything is clear - a tribal society, etc. But later I would not have so unequivocally asserted his absence either. It's worth digging deeper here. At least the "Holy Empire of the German Nation" existed and apparently there were some ideas of unity, nationalism, etc. A somewhat more specific development of nationalism in Germany is explained by the late formation of the national state and, as a result, the late formation of the German nation and the idea of ​​nationalism, which, due to a shorter time period, led to a more rapid course of this process. The same is with Italy.
                        2) We have not touched Russia: how is it with her? We noted the situation of typological similarity of pre-Mongol Rus with the Greeks. And then what? Is the Muscovite state taking shape as a national state or as an empire? According to this logic, it should be a nation-state?
                      23. Engineer
                        Engineer 9 June 2022 11: 56
                        +2
                        Let me sum it up from my side.

                        Everything is ok, except for the little things.
                        I did not find a convincing connection between the "nationalism of the ancient Greeks" and modern nationalism, based on the fact that it leads to the creation of modern nation-states

                        I just want to emphasize that the potential Greek project was cut off from the outside. And of course, common Greek ideas did not become decisive in any case.
                        but at the same time lived in numerous small states


                        Do not forget about supra-polis unions, this is also a classic

                        It is no news that all this has a certain typological similarity with the situation in pre-Mongol Russia. In my opinion, nothing more than a typical situation of ordinary chauvinism and xenophobia

                        Not really. This is the realization that internecine strife is destroying the community, and this is a step forward compared to ordinary chauvinism. And also the idea of ​​unification is two steps forward.
                        And of course, it is possible to sum up the “roots” of modern nationalism under this, but it is overly strained,

                        By no means roots. Analogies and parallels. The Greek concept turned out to be fruitless and had no heirs - torn off from the outside before it had time to mature
                        At least the "Holy Empire of the German Nation" existed and apparently there were some ideas of unity, nationalism, etc.

                        I did not see this, although this does not mean that they were not. Imperial unity, pan-European claims. Not German. Do you remember who was the first to take the floor when choosing an emperor?
                        Is the Muscovite state taking shape as a national state or as an empire? According to this logic, it should be a nation-state?

                        In the Muscovite state one can discern both national and imperial features. But the imperial gradually prevailed, which led to disastrous consequences for everyone, and especially the Russian people.
                      24. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 8 June 2022 12: 57
                        +1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        "Israel for Jews"

                        Is Israel for the Jews or is Israel for the Jews? the difference is fundamental. hi
                      25. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 13: 08
                        +2
                        the difference is fundamental.

                        No. I remind you of two concepts of nationalism. "Blood nationalism" and "cultural nationalism". Both are nationalistic
                        Specifically for Israel and Judea of ​​that time, it is rather for the Jews. At every opportunity, they turned their eyes away from Yahweh and dragged them to the temples of Baals and Astarte
                      26. mihaylov
                        mihaylov 8 June 2022 14: 02
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Specifically for Israel and Judea of ​​that time, it is rather for the Jews. At every opportunity, they turned their eyes away from Yahweh and dragged them to the temples of Baals and Astarte

                        I could be wrong, but Israel and Judea before the Persian conquest are rather primitive states of the "palace type" (analogue of the Mycenaean era)
                      27. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 14: 18
                        +4
                        Primitive, so what?
                        Everything comes from the dogma there is no capitalism - there is no nationalism. A primitive state - there are not even elements of capitalism - there are not even the beginnings of nationalism.
                        But I don't think so. There is no need to pre-bind everything to the OEF. This is dogmatism.
                      28. hohol95
                        hohol95 8 June 2022 16: 06
                        +2
                        Are Jews recognized by their father or mother?
                      29. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 June 2022 16: 13
                        +2
                        Today, even after my grandfather.
                        But traditionally in Judaism, kinship is through the mother.
                      30. hohol95
                        hohol95 8 June 2022 16: 42
                        +1
                        But the Japanese are the most important "Nazis" - they have the concept of "Hafu" - a half-breed ...
                      31. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 June 2022 17: 03
                        +1
                        Before answering, I will consult a person who understands the history and culture of Japan better than all of us put together.
                      32. hohol95
                        hohol95 8 June 2022 17: 18
                        +2
                        And this expression is still "soft".
                        Before that it was more "hard"!
                        I read that they do not distribute their citizenship to everyone ...
                        And wealthy families hire special offices to check the genealogical trees of applicants for the hands and hearts of their offspring!
                        And God forbid, the applicant will find "blood drops" of Koreans, Chinese or other peoples of the world. They can also close the "doors" in front of him (her). Forever and ever!
                      33. hohol95
                        hohol95 8 June 2022 17: 21
                        +1
                        You have a connection with Emperor Naruhito himself belay
                      34. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 June 2022 17: 31
                        +1
                        I have a connection with VikNik, who lived and worked in Japan.
                      35. hohol95
                        hohol95 8 June 2022 17: 39
                        +2
                        good good good
                        Say hello to him and wish him good health!
                      36. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 June 2022 18: 10
                        +2
                        I'll pass it on. His opinion:
                        "The concept of a half-breed has appeared in Japan since the moment the Japanese ethnic group was formed. And the term hafu first appeared in 1930." (FROM)
                      37. hohol95
                        hohol95 8 June 2022 18: 25
                        +2
                        drinks
                        My personal opinion is that the Japanese are one of the most seasoned nationalists!
                        With smiling faces...
                      38. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 8 June 2022 19: 39
                        +2
                        How to measure the degree of internationalism among the people? And is it good?

                        Open to be relatively easy for a large and strong country.
                      39. hohol95
                        hohol95 8 June 2022 20: 26
                        +2
                        "It's good to be Healthy and Rich, but not Poor and Sick."
                        It's hard to find the golden mean. And you have to try to find it. The main thing is not to reduce some of your native residents to the appointment of their "86s" ...
                        But the vacillation from "We love the whole World" to "The whole world is our enemy" will bring even more harm.
                      40. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 8 June 2022 18: 57
                        +2
                        And to you, Alexei greetings from him!
                      41. Bolt cutter
                        Bolt cutter 8 June 2022 20: 08
                        +3
                        they have the concept of "Hafu"
                        The British call these "mongrels" - mongrel.
                      42. hohol95
                        hohol95 8 June 2022 20: 20
                        +1
                        WikiWiki
                        "Before the spread of the term hafu, the most popular term was Ainoko (合の子 degenerate)[K 1], which became especially common after World War II, but was soon banned due to racist connotations[11]."
                      43. The comment was deleted.
                      44. Edward Vashchenko
                        Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 13: 51
                        +2
                        Well, Denis was amazed!
                        imperial idea prevailed

                        When political scientists write this, well, you can understand and forgive ... but historians.
                        Here it is not far from authoritarianism-totalitarianism.
                        hi
                      45. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 14: 02
                        +3
                        When political scientists write this, well, you can understand and forgive ... but historians.

                        I am not a historian, I can bully
                        But in any case, until the 7th century there was imperial building. In my understanding, the empire and the nation-state as a whole are mutually exclusive things, and if so, there is nothing surprising that after the 7th century AD. the Greeks were unable to recall any of the national ideas of the classical period. Why the nationalist concept was not revived on a new basis (but was revived 1000 years later), I do not know, but in any case, this has nothing to do with ancient Greece.
                        Something like that.
                      46. Edward Vashchenko
                        Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 14: 36
                        +1
                        the Greeks were unable to recall any of the national ideas of the classical period.

                        It's hard to remember what didn't happen.
                        Plato and Aristotle was available, Homer too.
                        Yours faithfully,
                        hi
                      47. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 15: 10
                        +2
                        For me, the existence of a suprapolis, general Greek idea is a fact
                        Plutarch..
                        Agesilaus learned that a great battle had taken place at Corinth and very few had fallen from the side of the Spartans, but many from the enemy, he showed neither joy nor pride, and only said with a deep sigh: “Woe to you, Greece, that you yourself have destroyed so many people who, if they were still alive, would be able, united, to defeat all the barbarians put together

                        I do not agree with the Corinthian Demaratus, who said that all the Greeks, who did not see Alexander sitting on the throne of Darius, were deprived of the greatest pleasure. I think they should rather weep at the thought that the Greek generals who fought at Leuctra, Coronea, Corinth, are responsible for the fact that this honor fell to the lot of Alexander and Macedon.

                        Quintessence at Demosthenes
                        At the same time, you also know that if the Greeks suffered any insults from the Lacedaemonians or from us, then they suffered these insults all the same from the true sons of Greece, and then everyone treated this in exactly the same way as if , for example, a legitimate son, who came into possession of a large fortune, began to dispose of something badly and incorrectly: everyone would consider him deserving of censure and condemnation for this very thing, but no one would dare to say that he had no right to do this as an outsider or not being the heir to this property. (31) But if a slave or some foundling began to squander and squander wealth to which he had no right, then - O Hercules! - how much more outrageous and more worthy of wrath would you all recognize! But Philip and what he is doing now are not judged in this way, although he is not only not a Greek and does not even have anything in common with the Greeks, but he is not a barbarian from a country that could be called with respect , but this is a miserable Macedonian, a native of that country where before it was impossible to buy a decent slave ....
                      48. Edward Vashchenko
                        Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 17: 44
                        0
                        Denis,
                        When did Plutarch live? One thing is Plato and Aristotle, contemporaries of your "polis nationalism", another thing is the period of Plutarch's life, when the policy was in complete decline as an institution, and the last Greek cities fell under the rule of the Romans.
                        hi
                      49. Engineer
                        Engineer 8 June 2022 17: 51
                        +1
                        In any case, of the three statements above, Plutarch owns only one
          2. mihaylov
            mihaylov 8 June 2022 09: 40
            +3
            Quote: Engineer
            As far as I can tell, this is the opinion of our historiography.

            I personally just came across a work on this topic just from their historiography.
            I will not argue, but in my opinion the concept that nations are formed in the 19th century along with nation-states, and as a result of this, nationalism came from there. hi
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 8 June 2022 09: 47
              +5
              I'm talking about the current state of historiography.
              "Nations are formed in the 19th century" - the concept of the German school
              (sort of like), which is not that abandoned, but somehow wilted by itself in the West
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 8 June 2022 09: 12
          +2
          Of course, I am not an expert, but in my opinion, German Nazism just grew up on the basis of the struggle for this very food base.
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 09: 44
            +1
            Anton,
            Nazism and nationalism, though close phenomena, but have serious differences.
            Nazism and fascism are the "reaction" of countries lagging behind the leading capitalist powers. Nationalism - arose with the collapse of feudalism and the formation of national states. In this regard, the question is: is Nazism possible in the 16th century?
            hi
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 8 June 2022 10: 23
              0
              No, of course, the division was on a religious basis. In my opinion, it was the decline of the church that became the main reason for the decline of the Middle Ages.
        3. mihaylov
          mihaylov 8 June 2022 09: 36
          +5
          Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
          The genocide has existed since the beginning of the existence of mankind and was caused primarily by a fierce struggle for food

          Greetings Edward!
          I would say that genocide still comes from the animal world: it is completely recorded, for example, in chimpanzees, a group of which is capable of completely destroying another group to the last person, sorry, chimpanzees. hi
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 09: 39
            +3
            Good morning Sergey,
            yes, I just didn’t write about shimpo laughing
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 8 June 2022 10: 36
            +2
            In this vein, the battle "Cro-Magnons vs Neanderthals" is more revealing.
            Hello, Sergey!
            1. mihaylov
              mihaylov 8 June 2022 10: 44
              +2
              Good afternoon Anton,
              In this vein, the battle "Cro-Magnons vs Neanderthals" is more revealing.

              What if the Neanderthals had won? laughing
              I wonder if there are alternative essays on this topic? hi
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 8 June 2022 10: 51
                +1
                I haven't met yet. Well, except for all sorts of nonsense about Hyperborea. And that was here one pretzel, who considered himself a Hyperborean Neanderthal.
                1. mihaylov
                  mihaylov 8 June 2022 11: 16
                  +1
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  And that was here one pretzel, who considered himself a Hyperborean Neanderthal.

                  The main thing in life is to identify yourself correctly! drinks
            2. hohol95
              hohol95 8 June 2022 15: 32
              +1
              From the latest science news -
              In Laos, they found a finger of a girl ... belonging to the "Denisovites"!
              Denisovan genes have been found in many peoples of Oceania and Southeast Asia. And Neanderthal genes are found in some peoples - let's not discount assimilation ...
              Not destruction...
      2. hohol95
        hohol95 8 June 2022 15: 28
        +1
        Controversial example...
        "In particular, in Burundi, 1972 was the year of Ikiza (disaster) or Ubwicanyi (murder) for the Hutu people, and the persecutors at that time were representatives of the Tutsi people."
        20 years before the big massacre
        warspot.ru
      3. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 8 June 2022 19: 42
        +2
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        A very dubious postulate. The Tootsies won't believe you.

        Hello Anton! hi
        6th only the Turks, but also the Germans of the middle of the 20th century, the Syrians of its second half and the beginning of the 21st ... and the very concept of national socialism (there is also social-nationalism redone by Kharkiv and Arabs).
      4. Ruslan67
        Ruslan67 9 June 2022 02: 13
        +1
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        The Tootsies won't believe you.

        Hutu doesn't care sad
        Hello from Vaska drinks
    2. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 8 June 2022 08: 35
      +3
      Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

      On my own behalf, I would like to add that, in general, Uvarov's assessment is given very well, especially in terms of the rise of education,

      Is it an article about Uvarov?
    3. kalibr
      8 June 2022 11: 56
      +2
      Good afternoon, dear Edward! Everything is so ... That is why the material is called "Guardians of the foundations." To be continued. About Uvarov's "companions" and his opponents.
    4. ABC-schutze
      ABC-schutze 8 June 2022 13: 07
      +1
      "Europe, in particular in Germany, which was heading full steam ahead towards capitalism.
      And nationalism does not happen without capitalism: these are interconnected phenomena.
      The formula is not just then alien to the majority of the population of Russia, but simply an empty phrase.
      ****************************************************************************
      The fact is that "in Europe", already in 1848, the "classics" promulgated the famous "Manifesto". With an analysis, RESULTS and PROSPECTS, of the development process of INDUSTRIAL capitalism (and not "capitalism" in general ...). In other words, they designated the MASS appearance on the historical and political "stage" of such NEW and REAL "players" as the INDUSTRIAL bourgeoisie and the PROLETARIAT. NATURALLY, under the dictates of the needs of economic DEVELOPMENT, "ripening" in Europe, before their "access to the price", almost a CENTURY ...

      In Russia, the PEASANT-SERT and NOBLE, at the BEGINNING of the 19th century, "having seen enough" of some philistine prosperity and "freedom" - verbiage, noble officers (or part of it ...), these are the very ones, MASSIVELY NECESSARY for REAL SOCIAL transformations, the INDUSTRIAL bourgeoisie and the PROLETARIAT, where would they "take"? ..

      So, just to "liberate the peasants", "fill up" the Emperor and "throw down" the absolute monarchy. They wrote a "constitution" hastily composed under glasses of champagne and that "the process would go on"? ..

      For the situation in Russia and AROUND it at that time, I highly doubt it (absolutely, by the way, not being a "monarchist." If any "process" had gone on, then only fights of "new forces" for power, the collapse and tearing of the country With the ACTIVE participation of "Western like-minded" fiery Russian "reformers" ...

      No, in Russia, THEN it was Nicholas the First who was RIGHT, and not the fans of Diderot and Voltaire ...

      It was the STRONG CENTRALIZED and UNLIMITED power, THEN, that was able to take on the REAL and WITHOUT HURRY, PLANNED preparation of the PEOPLE (from nobles to serfs and clergy) to CARRYING OUT RADIO-ECONOMIC transformations. WITHOUT EXPOSING THE RISK OF COLLAPSE, "Democratic" CHAOTIZATION AND THE RISK OF EXTERNAL ARESSION to the Russian Empire ...
  3. Korsar4
    Korsar4 8 June 2022 06: 33
    +6
    In my opinion, the reaction of Nicholas I to the Decembrist rebellion is quite consistent. However, this is an eternal topic that can cause long disputes.

    And under Uvarov, and for a long time after, the level of gymnasiums and universities was quite decent. The focus changed under each new Minister of Education.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 07: 12
      +6
      Sergey,
      good morning,
      all these are details, as they like to say now, "point" details that do not change the key trend, why this all happened.
      And the answer to the question: is all this super-unique, the most unique Russian phenomenon, crazy russians, or is there no uniqueness, but there is a historical pattern.
      I'm leaning towards the latter.
      hi
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 8 June 2022 07: 18
        +4
        Good morning Edward!

        I agree about historical trends.
        But the choice of the course of gymnasiums also affected later.
        It is one thing to saturate with ancient languages, as an indicator of the struggle "with semi-knowledge." Another thing is great freedom.
        Although, probably, in any case, the ability to work and think is not lost. But in order to realize the abilities, it is difficult to do without a systemic structure of the entire state.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 07: 45
          +6
          the ability to work and thought does not disappear.

          Unfortunately, historical patterns define this as a regression.
          Compare the Greeks of the 4th-3rd centuries BC. or Byzantium in the 19th century? The same Rome of the 2nd century AD and before the Risorgimento.
          There was, right before our eyes, "Buran", and now the technology is lost, the USSR built thousands of civilian aircraft, the Russian Federation is not capable, There was Mriya, and now no one is able to build such a thing, etc. etc.
          hi
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 8 June 2022 08: 00
            +4
            And this is already a critical mass of in-demand engineers.

            Climbing the steps of skills and knowledge to mastery. When someone needs it. Properly.
          2. hohol95
            hohol95 8 June 2022 15: 35
            +1
            Are we still able to make a wooden cart?
            Or mow the grass with a scythe?
            Bast shoes to weave?
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 8 June 2022 08: 12
      +4
      The focus changed under each new Minister of Education.
      You might think it's different now...
      Hello, Sergey!
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 8 June 2022 08: 26
        +3
        Hello Anton!

        And now about the same. The issue of maintaining trends.
        It's easier to destroy. And imitate. Creating is much more difficult.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 8 June 2022 08: 36
          +3
          It's easier to destroy. And imitate.
          And so everything continues to happen. The war gave some positive impulses, but they are point, the general trend is a "horizontal tailspin." We chatted the day before yesterday and I forgot to talk about it.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 8 June 2022 08: 50
            +3
            At least in what we are facing, it is.
      2. Edward Vashchenko
        Edward Vashchenko 8 June 2022 08: 34
        +6
        Anton,
        so this is the rule. The current Russian Federation, in essence, a social formation, is very close to Russia of the XNUMXth century, while the truth of Alexander III, it is not for nothing that our leaders love him so much now.
        hi
  4. Sertorius
    Sertorius 8 June 2022 07: 44
    +5
    in July 1826, the III Department of His Imperial Majesty's Own Chancellery was created, headed by General A. Kh. Benckendorff. That is nothing but the secret police

    The case when the entire historical canvas of the period under study is adjusted to the research vector set by the author.
    The secret police have always existed. And everywhere. Where is the serviceable campaigner Benkendrf to F.Yu. Romodanovsky or S. Sheshkovsky. Even before the change in the course of domestic policy, Alexander 1 had several secret services in general.
    In general, I doubt that such a global topic as the reformatting of consciousness can be explored in the format of this portal. But, if without nit-picking, the article is interesting. Thanks, Vyacheslav!
    1. kalibr
      8 June 2022 12: 02
      +3
      Quote: Sertorius
      In general, I doubt that such a global topic as the reformatting of consciousness can be explored in the format of this portal.

      But you can try...
  5. Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 8 June 2022 08: 31
    +6
    = To be continued…=
    Better not. The author himself does not understand what he is writing about.
    1. kalibr
      8 June 2022 12: 04
      -4
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Better not

      Don't read. Before each of my material there is an epigraph. And a picture. If the gun and the epigraph - read. If not a gun - do not read. Is everything simple? But probably pulls like a boy to masturbation, huh?
      1. Ruslan67
        Ruslan67 9 June 2022 02: 20
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        Do not read.

        good laughing
        Vyacheslav Olegovich hi Catch a professional propagandist and PR man on such a phrase belay Do you even understand how a phrase taken out of context can spread across the network? fool
        Р.S. Probably my education deformation superimposed on the white nights? recourse
        1. kalibr
          9 June 2022 09: 40
          +1
          Quote: Ruslan67
          Do you even understand how a phrase taken out of context can spread across the network?

          I absolutely do not care how it will disperse and where. I have 1702 articles here. And 329 more on the Pravda website. RU. "Do you even understand," how many phrases could disperse from them?
          1. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 9 June 2022 20: 30
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            how many phrases could be dispersed from them?

            I suspect that a third of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation sad laughing
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
  6. kor1vet1974
    kor1vet1974 8 June 2022 09: 12
    +3
    The evaluation of Uvarov's activity is given correctly. With the reformatting of consciousness, it is not at all clear who reformatted whom and in what way. Which side of the Cathars, Campanella, Mor? "Kvass" patriotism was, is and will be, and not only in Russia ..
    1. kalibr
      8 June 2022 12: 05
      -3
      Quote: kor1vet1974
      It is not at all clear who reformatted whom and in what way. Which side of the Cathars, Campanella, Mor? "Kvass" patriotism was, is and will be, and not only in Russia ..

      Deep meaning is not immediately recognized.
      1. kor1vet1974
        kor1vet1974 8 June 2022 13: 16
        +4
        Deep meaning is not immediately recognized.
        laughing It is clear that you are applying for the role of T. Mora and T. Campanella, taken together. Well, we will study, outline, learn the deep meaning, become adherents. hi
        1. kalibr
          8 June 2022 16: 22
          -1
          Quote: kor1vet1974
          You apply for the role of T. More and T. Campanella,

          God forbid me, Cornelius, from this. I'm just giving information. It is enough just to carefully read the material and everything will become clear. I do not use scientific terminology, complex lexical phrases. Nebula Index texts are available for 14 teenagers.
  7. depressant
    depressant 8 June 2022 09: 18
    +4
    Good morning, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    Have you become a pamphleteer? wassat )))
    Thin ice!
    Unfortunately, I cannot discuss.
    And the article is great.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 8 June 2022 11: 56
      +3
      Lyudmila Yakovlevna, how are you?
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 8 June 2022 12: 28
        +3
        Hello Sergey. smile
        How are things going, is everything in the spinning wheel?
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 8 June 2022 15: 29
          +2
          Hi Constantine!
          Glad to see you.
          “Spinning wheel” is still a female instrument.

          I communicate with the younger generation, marveling at their psychological stability and remembering Parkinson's Law that work takes up all the allotted time.

          The characters are varied. Sloppiness is universal. I'm probably getting old.

          However, different freaks always got something out.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 8 June 2022 15: 37
            +3
            “Spinning wheel” is still a female instrument.

            Here the computer is weird, after all, I wrote "in order", I told myself a hundred times - re-read it, and here again in three words. request
            Yes ... my friend was "lucky" - the son-in-law got a rare go from, even by today's standards.
            The monstrous dominance of swearing still annoys me, and not only among young people, there has long been some sort of slipping into animal bestiality.
            Kinda sad in my heart.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 8 June 2022 18: 31
              +2
              This despite the fact that the characters are positive, in general. They simply equal themselves.

              What Anton and I mentioned about the imitation of what you do.
      2. depressant
        depressant 8 June 2022 13: 56
        +3
        How are you?

        So-so. I'm slowly going blind. Seizures. I see it, I don't see it. Just like politicians wassat )))
        Good day, Sergey! )))
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 8 June 2022 15: 30
          +3
          Have you been prescribed treatment? Is it possible to follow?
          1. depressant
            depressant 8 June 2022 16: 48
            +3
            Let's leave this topic. You asked, I answered. Better write what you think about the reformatting of consciousness. The further, the more theorists blur the idea of ​​reformatting. But practice shows otherwise.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 8 June 2022 18: 34
              +4
              To reformat consciousness, you must first form. Easier when absorbed with mother's milk.

              Now generations are changing very quickly. And the strong ties between them are sometimes broken.
  8. Mike_E
    Mike_E 8 June 2022 11: 11
    +1
    An ideal article in terms of narrative consistency, illustrations and the absence of ridiculous references and parallels. Readers here are mostly with their heads - they will draw their own conclusions. Thanks to V. Shpakovsky.
    1. kalibr
      8 June 2022 12: 06
      -1
      Quote: Mike_E
      Readers here are mostly with their heads - they will draw their own conclusions.

      This makes me happy. The remaining 20% ​​are headless horsemen.
  9. acetophenone
    acetophenone 8 June 2022 11: 50
    +3
    Here it is ... "At the Academy of Sciences ..." Ever since then it has been customary ...
    1. kalibr
      8 June 2022 12: 08
      +2
      Quote: acetophenon
      Here it is ... "At the Academy of Sciences ..." Ever since then it has been customary ...

      Everything from there! In Russia at that time, even syphilis was called the "French disease." And so sweetly they wrote in their memoirs: "Arriving from Paris to the French prince ... such and such plunged into sadness and fell into drunkenness."
  10. Soldatov V.
    Soldatov V. 8 June 2022 12: 08
    +3
    Reading V.O. Shpakovsky is felt by the University Scientific School. Or maybe he, using his own example, using the example of young liberal democrats like Gaidar and Chubais, can show, tell how they reformatted from pioneers, Komsomol members, communists, teachers of scientific communism into mouthpieces of capitalism, liberal democracy. As Yeltsin, having, as they say, everything that a simple Soviet person could imagine, he rushed into a pool of profit and moral decay. Remember airplanes, yachts full of prostitutes, photocopier boxes full of black cash in dollars. This, too, is history, albeit not so distant. Somehow it is necessary to pass on experience, first-hand knowledge to descendants, so that they do not suck history out of their fingers or from the ceiling. soldier
    1. kalibr
      8 June 2022 16: 31
      +1
      Quote: V.
      Or maybe he, using his own example, using the example of young liberal democrats like Gaidar and Chubais, can show, tell how they reformatted from pioneers, Komsomol members, communists, teachers of scientific communism into mouthpieces of capitalism, liberal democracy.

      As you understand, the "school is felt" because the materials are based on the MATERIALS of many researchers. It is difficult to write about modern affairs. It seems to be here it is ... in front of you. But where is the guarantee that you look right? Where is the comparative information? Repeat after the "majority" "Chubais is bad"? I don't have documentary evidence for this. That's the problem. That is, if you want a serious analysis and a good presentation ... you have to wait. I recently found a book in the store just "about this." Thick ... I wanted to buy, I started reading ... and there is "water". And the mantras "bad", "liberal", "betrayal" ... If we take the book as a basis, then both Pushkin and Lermontov will be traitors and liberals in Russia .... everything! But we don't think so, do we? In the end, I didn't buy the book.
      I could (and wrote) about higher education, to which I myself was a witness. But ... again, based on my experience of previous ministers of education, I would not smear 100% black ... Although this is mine ... But Chubais and Gaidar are not mine. And I write: "It seems to me, I think, in my opinion ..." Who am I: I simply do not have information. TV and newspapers are not a source!
  11. Ryazan87
    Ryazan87 8 June 2022 12: 30
    +2
    To combat the "rebellious and disastrous spirit of the West", already in July 1826, the III Department of His Imperial Majesty's Own Chancellery was created, headed by General A. Kh. Benckendorff. That is, nothing but the secret police.

    The III Branch did not appear suddenly, but as a result of the transformation of the Special Office of the Ministry of Internal Affairs (originally the Ministry of Police).
    As for the tasks of Section III, they are much more specific and broader than the struggle with a certain spirit.
    For example, "...News about discoveries on counterfeit banknotes, coins, stamps, documents, etc., of which the search and further production remains dependent on the Ministries: Finance and Internal Affairs." or "Statements of all incidents without exception."
    In itself, it is rather a control and analytical body.
  12. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 8 June 2022 13: 28
    +3
    Excellent article, Vyacheslav Olegovich. And the comments, with a few exceptions, are sensible and interesting.
    Here's what I want to point out.
    The mass reformatting of consciousness in the context as it is considered in this series of articles occurs almost once a century, at least in Russia.
    The prophetic Oleg reformatted the consciousness of the Slavic tribes, drawing them into the orbit of the ancient Russian state, Vladimir the Baptist introduced Christianity, then the state collapsed, then the Mongols, Kulikovo Field, Ivan the Great, Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Well, and further, until the 90s. last century.
    And if we generalize a little more, it turns out that the public consciousness is permanently in the stage of formatting, only it happens not smoothly and progressively, but in some steps, according to the principle of "leap - conservation".
    The hero of the article is a XNUMX% conservative and "formatted" into the past, back. The next hero, whoever he is, if he is from the time of Alexander the Liberator, will form forward, the next - back again ...
    The Bolsheviks made a huge leap forward and pupated, becoming terry conservatives from innovators and thereby destroying the state they created.
    As for the last reformatting that began in the late 80s, in my opinion, it was artificial, that is, not due to any economic prerequisites, and was aimed not at development and progress, but at decline and degradation.
    If so, then history probably does not know more successful reforms - decline and degradation were received in full, and the level of public consciousness returned to the times of the second half of the XNUMXth century.
    I wonder who the author will be the next hero. We look forward to continuing. smile
    1. Ryazan87
      Ryazan87 8 June 2022 15: 13
      +1
      The Bolsheviks made a huge leap forward and pupated, becoming terry conservatives from innovators and thereby destroying the state they created.

      ".... In essence, the entire history of the Soviet of Deputies is a history of rejection (with ebb and flow) of the most odious nonsense: from attempts to introduce communism according to the "Manifesto" and an immediate "world conflagration" - to "socialism in one country" and quasi-state institutions, then, when it got hot, to hiding in the pocket of the Comintern and pulling out the "great ancestors", even later - to "economic incentives", finally, they themselves undertook to pretend to be normal people. Undoubtedly, this process - also - with ebb and flow (one of which, apparently, we are now experiencing) will continue to occur, up to complete elimination. (With)
      1. kalibr
        8 June 2022 20: 30
        0
        Quote: Ryazanets87

        ".... In essence, the entire history of the Soviet of Deputies is a history of rejection (with ebb and flow) of the most odious nonsense: from attempts to introduce communism according to the "Manifesto" and an immediate "world conflagration" - to "socialism in one country" and quasi-state institutions, then, when it got hot, to hiding in the pocket of the Comintern and pulling out the "great ancestors", even later - to "economic incentives", finally, they themselves undertook to pretend to be normal people. Undoubtedly, this process - also - with ebb and flow (one of which, apparently, we are now experiencing) will continue to occur, up to complete elimination.

        Someone smart wrote! Not you?
    2. kalibr
      8 June 2022 16: 43
      +1
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      almost once a century

      How right you, Michael, noticed! And thanks for the comment. You have a very interesting approach to understanding the topic. Moreover, they told me to turn it around. Before your comment, I wanted to write about other "guardians" from Uvarov's cohort, who continued his work at the level of journalism - about the "traitor" Thaddeus Bulgarin, Nikolai Grech, in a word ... "the foundations of Russian journalism." But your comment made me change the factor - the person will be different and also very interesting.
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      I wonder who the author will be the next hero.

      In any case, do not guess anyone!
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 8 June 2022 17: 18
        +3
        I would take Stolypin. smile Here, in my opinion, is a classic example of an attempt to reformat the consciousness of millions of people. Moreover, he just pulled Russia, or rather tried to pull it forward, and, nevertheless, was not understood either from below, or from above, neither from the right, nor from the left.
        I don’t pretend to guess, the more interesting it will be to read the next article. smile
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 8 June 2022 18: 29
          +1
          Mish, hello. I agree: Stolypin really tried to reformat consciousness. And really pulled Russia forward. He seems to me one of the few talents under Nicholas 2
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 8 June 2022 19: 25
            +1
            Hello, Glory.
            There were many talents, and in all areas. The tsar himself was untalented, so he surrounded himself with the same stupid people. Stolypin, I think, was needed to strangle the revolution, to clean up its consequences. Nobody in the country's leadership even wanted to think about any transformations, they believed that it was possible to get by with exclusively punitive methods.
            The curtailment of Stolypin's reforms, in my opinion, is the very point of bifurcation, having passed which, Russia has already inevitably came to the nightmare of revolutions and civil war. Stolypin could change something else, after him there is no longer - actually the agony began.
            1. kalibr
              8 June 2022 20: 25
              +2
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              the same bifurcation point,

              "Shot of Bagrov"
            2. vladcub
              vladcub 9 June 2022 06: 52
              0
              Misha, here I agree with you and disagree
          2. kalibr
            8 June 2022 20: 24
            +2
            Quote: vladcub
            tried to reformat the mind.

            Through the economy. We are considering the impact on people's minds of ideas! The most ungrateful way, I will notice.
        2. kalibr
          8 June 2022 20: 23
          +2
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          I would take Stolypin. Here, in my opinion, is a classic example of an attempt to reformat the consciousness of millions of people. Moreover, he just pulled Russia, or rather tried to pull it forward, and, nevertheless, was not understood either from below, or from above, neither from the right, nor from the left.
          I don’t pretend to guess, the more interesting it will be to read the next article.

          Stolypin reformatted the country through actions. And in this cycle, ideas come first, as you, Mikhail, have probably already noticed. Stolypin is an official reformer, although very significant in the history of Russia. I'm talking about the person who gave an assessment of the system. People have read it, little has changed in their lives, but... for many, it has stuck in their minds.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 8 June 2022 21: 43
            0
            Excellent. smile
            We wait.
          2. Mike_E
            Mike_E 9 June 2022 14: 41
            0
            It seems to me that the answer is in the phrase "... many have read and forgotten ..."
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 8 June 2022 18: 34
        +1
        V. Oh, I venture to suggest that it will be Zubatov, the head of the Moscow gendarmerie.
        At first I thought, like Misha, but then it was Stolypin.
        Then I thought and: "in any case, no one can guess" I was reminded of Zubatov
        1. kalibr
          8 June 2022 20: 26
          +1
          Since it is written not to guess, then it is impossible to guess!
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 9 June 2022 06: 17
            +1
            At the evil one. Keeps the intrigue
  13. vladcub
    vladcub 8 June 2022 18: 21
    +1
    "find 50 intelligent governors and worthy clerics"
    Comrades, and Karamzin's advice as a whole was sensible.
    I try on Karamzin's advice to our recent past: if there were sensible leaders on the ground, the Union could have survived.
    I judge by my own collective farm: we have window dressing and formalism "ruled the ball" and the collective farm lost 1,5 million, and the neighboring collective farm: them. 22 party congresses (the last names that I remember were: Luch, Mayak, May Day) their chairman was a war invalid, from 1947 to 1984 (?) And the collective farm always had profits. The collective farm was in second place in the region. All the nearby villages envied them. And our collective farm chairmen changed almost every year. In my memory there were: 9 (which I remember), of which 1 b.m. was pulled up by the collective farm: tractors and machines were updated. Under him, brand new 130 ZiLs appeared. Collective farmers started earning money, but in the district he had a fight with someone and left.
    And we had secretaries of the district committee: completely blockheads.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 8 June 2022 18: 39
      +2
      An intelligent governor can help you stay on the surface for a while. And this is very wonderful. But you can't argue against the general trend.

      How much we talk about “points of growth”. What's the point?
    2. kalibr
      8 June 2022 20: 28
      +2

      And we had secretaries of the district committee: completely blockheads.
      Recently I learned about how P. Berezovka lives, where I was a teacher. And it lives well, it is prosperous, one might say. I got a good leader and fixed everything there. I'll try to go there in the summer and write the material "Return to Pokrovo-Berezovka".
  14. faterdom
    faterdom 8 June 2022 20: 43
    +1
    Of course, a lot depended on Uvarov at the time ...
    But not all.
    Over and over again, we return to the fact that everything, or almost everything, depends on the personality of the supreme ruler, whether he is the Grand Duke, the Tsar, the Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars, the Secretary General or the President.
    When a monarch (let's call him that in a general sense) sets big and understandable goals for himself and the state, and he himself has the will and determination, then the tools and personnel for this are in the most difficult starting conditions, like Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great same (relatives? namesakes?), Stalin.
    And when reflection is incomprehensible, then all and sundry begin to rule the ball in search of "meanings", and the "thaw" rulers are not only not "Great", but often ended badly, like Alexander the Liberator, Nikolai the Bloody, Khrushchev the corn-grower, Gorbachev -labeled.
    Artists and bankers should not determine the vector of state policy, either internal or external. Whether you are at least Galkin of advanced years ... Or even, I’m not afraid of this word - Akhedzhakova! And the king should be interested in these fruits only from the point of view of the professionalism and usefulness of their work. There should be no concept of "fashion writer", a la Glukhovskaya, or "fashion director" Serebryanikov.
    1. kalibr
      9 June 2022 06: 43
      +1
      Quote: faterdom
      When a monarch (let's call him that in a general sense) sets big and understandable goals for himself and the state, and he himself has the will and determination, then the tools and personnel for this are in the most difficult starting conditions, like Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great same (relatives? namesakes?), Stalin.

      How well you said. But ... in the 19th century in Russia there was a man who said the same thing a little differently ... That is, a very smart person. About him next time.
    2. kalibr
      9 June 2022 06: 45
      +2
      Quote: faterdom
      There should be no concept of "fashion writer", a la Glukhovskaya, or "fashion director" Serebryanikov.

      Why? For society - let! Fashion has always been and always will be. But not for the STATE!
    3. vladcub
      vladcub 9 June 2022 06: 50
      0
      I generally agree
  15. kytx
    kytx 10 June 2022 02: 44
    0
    How can we equip Russia.
    Kheh
  16. Givi_49
    Givi_49 9 July 2022 16: 28
    0
    "Reformatting consciousness" - loudly said. One can guess a vague allusion to today's Russia and, moreover, to future Russia. I do not dare to imagine the "format of consciousness" of my great-grandson, so far there is nothing to talk about.
    I am more concerned about the format of personal and public morality. There is no more vague, amorphous and foggy concept in our life. Due to the lack of a source of morality, everyone now has their own (but at the same time, their own morality is always more moral than someone else's). Liberalism has entered our lives so deeply that "what can be said in a fairy tale or described with a pen."
    I am convinced that national efforts are needed to establish a single moral standard that defines the requirements for the individual and for his interaction with society. I propose to agree with such a necessity that we have realized. All that is common, what religious denominations do and what is necessary in secular life, should be taken over by the state. The concepts of good and evil should be standardized, understood by everyone and shared by everyone, for example:
    - do not harm that you do not wish yourself;
    - do not deceive yourself and people;
    - do not wish and do not take someone else's;
    - do not put your morality higher than public - do not be a traitor;
    - do not change morality for profit - do not trade in conscience;
    - answer for your word;
    - respect elders;
    - work honestly, etc. ... wise people will add, smart people will understand, believers will support. There would be a conscious desire by the whole society to develop and adopt the Unified Secular Moral Code of the Russian Federation as the basis of the Constitution and follow it.
    On the basis of a single morality, the concept of justice can be affirmed: in Russia, what is MORAL is fair.
    Thus, we must draw a legal and factual moral border with the West, where, as you know, only what is FAVORABLE for the West is considered fair, by any means and at someone else's expense.
    A single morality does not allow for pluralism and interpretations; in all other cases - please, there can be many paths to the truth, argue, but stay in the moral field.
    I hope that the positive experience of social history with a single morality will affect the purity of all aspects of society: science, parenting, education, healthcare, culture, economy, ecology, defense, security, lawmaking and law enforcement. Then it will be possible to assess the degree of "reformatting of consciousness", having a real experience of following a single morality, as a conscious necessity.
    In order not to live according to the Criminal Code, one must live according to the Moral Code from birth. The report is over.
  17. ivan2022
    ivan2022 26 August 2022 12: 07
    -1
    The author correctly noted the Russian peculiarity. We do everything "from above". Directly according to Saltykov-Shchedrin: "Everything is on order. With permission. Even a pimple will not pop out without first scratching."

    Even the theory of the labor movement came to us before the movement, which never came. And in the West, Marxism arose as a result of understanding two proletarian revolutions ........
    Hence the question follows: "how can a society develop, which itself, spontaneously, is not able to take a single step"?