The difficult fate of the caliber 0.338 Lapua Magnum in Russia

On the wave News about the decision of the Russian Ministry of Defense to make changes in the organization of the construction and development of UAVs, I would like to ask a question directly related to the mortal earth: when will the respected ministry pay attention to the situation with ammunition?

This is not about zinc 5,45x39 or 7,62x54, but about the technically complex and proven caliber .338 Lapua Magnum (8,68x70 mm).

.338 Lapua Magnum cartridge (8,68x70mm) and 200, 225 and 250 grain bullets

Domestic manufacturers have been producing rifles for this caliber for a long time, and the names of some products are already as well known as the “elephant from contra” (AI L96A1), easily recognizable by all gamers. Companies Orsis and Lobaev Arms confidently took their place next to the British, Finnish and Austrian colleagues, setting records and winning the love of the domestic user. The Kalashnikov concern is also developing new rifles for this caliber.

However, despite the quality of the rifles produced, a successful hit directly depends on the components used in the cartridges, and they, unfortunately, are imported. Produced in Russia, gunpowder does not have outstanding characteristics and especially stability, which is unacceptable in the framework of high-precision shooting. Even civilian shooters prefer foreign components, and sports shooters, being at the forefront of new technologies, are completely forced to buy only imported consumables. We must pay tribute to the Novosibirsk Cartridge Plant, which is the only one producing a bulk cartridge of .338 LM caliber, but it is focused primarily on hunting.

SAKO TRG-42 and AI-AWSM in .338 Lapua Magnum firing at 1 meters (371 yards)

Why is this cartridge so good?

The main niche for the use of the cartridge is high-precision shooting. History it began in 1987, and in 1989 mass production started. Designed specifically for the destruction of infantry equipped with personal armor protection at a distance of 1 meters, the cartridge, thanks to modern technology, progress in electronics, optics and material processing, proved to be effective at a distance of 000 meters and beyond. A bullet fired at an average speed of 1 m/s has 500 joules of energy at the muzzle.

For comparison, the NATO .308 Winchester cartridge has an energy of 3 to 000 joules, depending on the type of bullet, and our 3x500R from 7,62 to 54 joules. In addition to the difference in energy, the difference in the ballistic coefficient of the listed ammunition is also important. Some .2 LM bullets have a rating of .400, which is 3% better than the .100 Winchester and 338% better than the 0,667x25R.

Total: we have already developed and time-tested cartridge with good ballistic characteristics and energy for long distances. At the same time, the caliber remains relatively “light”, because. rifle weighs up to 6 kg.

.338 Lapua Magnum and .308 Winchester cartridges

And what about us?

In 2019, TsNIITochmash announced the development of a cartridge similar to the .338 LM. According to the director general of the institution, Albert Bakov, such developments have not been carried out since 1974, and equipment, gunpowder, primers and other components still need to be created for production. Since then, we have not heard any more news in this direction.

This does not mean that the NII did nothing. In 2020, a silent-firing cartridge was developed that has the potential to penetrate class 2 body armor (br2 provides protection against pistol calibers, including high-penetration bullets), specifically for your Udav pistol.

Previously, the institute also developed cartridges SP-5 and SP-6 for the AS "Val", VSS "Vintorez" and other samples in service. There is no doubt that they can produce an analogue of the .338 LM, especially given the current global environment and the permission to parallel import, but is it necessary to develop from scratch? Maybe it's better to remember your own experience from history, when the country bought production lines and specialists, or use the similar experience of China?

So why should we produce the .338 Lapua Magnum?

Today we are armed with 7,62x54R rifles with an effective range of up to 1 meters. Both bolt and semi-automatic versions weigh an average of up to 000 kg and allow you to carry, in addition to yourself, spare weapons, as well as a decent ammunition load.

The next caliber immediately comes 12,7x108 mm for heavy machine guns and ASVK rifles. This ammunition belongs to the category of "anti-material" and is designed to disable lightly armored vehicles. Yes, they can shoot at enemy manpower, but the rifle weighs from 10 kg, has significant recoil, and it can hardly be called “light”. This is where the .338 LM comes in handy, it can confidently fill a niche between 7,62x54R and 12,7x108.

We have rifles, but no cartridge, and, most likely, as in the case of a rifle of this caliber, its production will fall on the shoulders of private firms. One can only hope for a deep analysis of the latest conflicts in which Russia has taken part, and for the right conclusions from the decision makers. After all, better late than never.

Comments

[Nafanya from the sofa]

Designed specifically for the destruction of infantry equipped with personal armor protection at a distance of 1 meters, the cartridge, thanks to modern technology, progress in electronics, optics and material processing, proved to be effective at a distance of 000 meters and beyond. A bullet fired at an average speed of 1 m/s

It looks like the author has never shot anything, but reads a lot of advertising. It is possible to hit the target at a distance of 1 km or more only with sports shooting at the XNUMXth shot or by accident.

[paul3390]

No, you can. But you need a good rifle, good optics and a good cartridge. And most importantly - a good shooter. And this is piece goods in any army .. Not everyone is suitable for this, you need to have talent here. Well - and of course extensive practice. Without it, you won't learn how to shoot. And the ammo isn't cheap.

I personally would not take it further than 500 meters .. Despite the existing some practice. Hit is not guaranteed. For - every day I can’t afford to shoot at least five decent cartridges, and there’s nowhere, you can’t ride at the shooting range every day ..

[Sergey Averchenkov]

Of course you can. As you said - good optics, a good rifle, a cartridge ... a bunch of devices that determine the speed and direction of the wind along the entire route, air humidity, etc. etc. The shooter is one in a million. And yes, it is possible. But it has nothing to do with war.

[bk0010]

Quote: Sergey Averchenkov

But it has nothing to do with war.

How it will be: this means that the probability of hitting a target at a distance of 600 meters (quite relevant) with such a weapon-cartridge complex will depend only on the skill of the shooter, an ordinary shooter, and not on the limitations of the weapon.

[Sergey Averchenkov]

We kind of talked about 1-1.5 thousand meters? Not? And so you are right ... and even then not quite - who will sharpen bullets on a lathe during the war?

[Obliterator]

Quote: Sergey Averchenkov

We kind of talked about 1-1.5 thousand meters? Not? And so you are right ... and even then not quite - who will sharpen bullets on a lathe during the war?

And the same as in peacetime. High-class specialists, even in wartime, no one drives to the front. Right now we are at war with a major European country, a de facto member of NATO, but no one calls turners from factories to the front.

[nnm]

Colleague, it’s okay to show off ... control exercise # 3 from AK - 300-400m (on a full-length target, of course, but still), and you are saying that you won’t hit with 500 from a sniper ...
Even ordinary fighters (you can hardly call them snipers), after a little practice from 200m, they fall into the 7.62 sleeve.

[Alexfly]

Yah.? Something doubts me .. To get into the sleeve from 200 meters .... from an open sight ..... I just shoot sometimes, once a week .. Time trouble .. so to speak ... In the same USA they are engaged in sniping tens of thousands, we have only a few, the question is why? Can you find the correct answer? I hope you understand where the legs grow from ..

[Electrical]

Well, yes, otherworldly forces are needed as assistants ...

[FRoman1984]

Quote: Nafanya from the couch

Designed specifically for the destruction of infantry equipped with personal armor protection at a distance of 1 meters, the cartridge, thanks to modern technology, progress in electronics, optics and material processing, proved to be effective at a distance of 000 meters and beyond. A bullet fired at an average speed of 1 m/s

It looks like the author has never shot anything, but reads a lot of advertising. It is possible to hit the target at a distance of 1 km or more only with sports shooting at the XNUMXth shot or by accident.

You, apparently, have never fired a bolt rifle in this caliber either, since you write such nonsense.

[Roman Skomorokhov]

Quote: Nafanya from the couch

It looks like the author has never shot anything, but reads a lot of advertising.

Of course, we generally recruit people by ads. I warn you, refrain from rudeness. Unlike you, the author did not just shoot, he also hit the right place.

[nnm]

From one specialist I heard such a motivation regarding the lack of prospects for this cartridge:
1. Increased barrel wear;
2. The redundancy of its characteristics for the main customer - the Ministry of Defense and the like, when the mass character and the average working distance of 400 meters begin to play an important role, for which the advantages of this cartridge are not so significant.

I do not presume to judge whether this is so or not, just a retelling of the opinion of a specialist.

[Deck]

In order to confidently hit a target of 300x300 at a distance of 1 kilometer, you need to fire more than 10 shots annually. This is a minimum of three barrel replacements, plus the cost of ammunition. Plus a year of intensive training. This is without the cost of a rifle, bipod, suppressor, sight, thermal imager, ballistic calculator, spotter for the second number, nightlights, communications, etc. Calculate the cost at the rate of one sniper platoon per battalion. MO will hang himself

[nnm]

Here I am about the same. I wanted to say that the topic under discussion is very specific and concerns only a narrow range of sniping and should not be extrapolated to the working conditions of 95% of snipers.
Yes, these remaining 5% are elite, but as far as I know from the same author of the comment above, they have no problems choosing ammunition.
By the way, he has a similar opinion regarding self-equipment of cartridges by snipers.

[Nafanya from the sofa]

About 50 years ago I received CCM in bullet shooting, naturally not from Papua Lapua. So I understand something. But for expressing his opinion, he received a threat to be forever banned from VO. It would be because of what.

[PSih2097]

Quote: Deck

This is without the cost of a rifle, bipod, suppressor, sight, thermal imager, ballistic calculator,

if you take Barrett, then in the region of $20 - $000

[Negro]

Quote: nnm

The redundancy of its characteristics for the main customer - the Ministry of Defense and the like, when the mass character and the average working distance of 400 meters begin to play an important role, for which the advantages of this cartridge are not so significant.

Shooting such a cartridge at 400 meters is really a strange undertaking.

[anykind]

Rather, not the author Does not understand the issue. The USMC at sniper school have long been pushing back from 1000m in training. Especially if we consider 338)))

[MauZerR]

Tell Craig Harrison.

[Izotovp]

I am forced to object to the previous respected ones and note: there are devices, rifles and even people capable of realizing the potential of these complexes. Only the question on the cartridge is completely outdated from the word. The article talks about a cartridge that we haven’t really switched to yet, and in world sniping it is already starting to leave the stage.

[Negro]

Quote: Izotovp

in world sniping, he is already starting to leave the scene.

In favor of what?

[Izotovp]

.338 Norms Magnum

[Negro]

)))
Not quite.
The Norma Mage and the Lapa Mage are almost identical - due to the slightly shorter case, the Norma makes it easier to work with a longer bullet for a given total cartridge length. This was paid for with more evil gunpowder and, accordingly, pressure.
Now more radical ideas are being considered - in the same direction, more and more hot shots. Of the army (more precisely, the forces of special operations), here is the most stoned .300 Norma Magnum - the same .338, recompressed to caliber 7,62. When it comes to sport shooting, these go even further than the .375 cage, .408 cage and all sorts of variations on this theme like the .375 enabelr. There are already concrete uprights and shooting for 2 miles.

However, it is literally certain that the .277 Fury, aka 6,8x51, burst into the celebration of life, which is either accepted, or still has not yet been adopted by the Americans. With a pressure of 550 MPa and a long bullet with a ballistic coefficient of 0,5 "in the base" - let's see what happens when the thrusters take it.

[Arkebusier]

Der autor hat sicher nie mit einem Mosin Nagant geschossen. Denn er erzählt Unsinn.
Mit einem 180 Grain Geschoss VMBT Privi Partizan erreicht man:
mit 47 Grain Pulver D073.6 (Explosia) eine V=821 m/s and Energie von 3933 Joule;
mit 46 Grain Pulver eine V=807 m/s and Energie von 3800 Joule.

Mit der Jagdpatrone von Barnaul habe ich eine 12 mm Stahlplatte glatt durchschossen.
Mit .308, K98, K31 gellingt das nicht.

The author definitely never fired from the Mosin Nagant. Because he is talking nonsense.
With the 180gn VMBT Privi Partizan you get:
with 47-grain gunpowder D073.6 (Explosia) V=821 m/s and energy 3933 J;
with gunpowder 46 grains V=807 m/s and energy 3800 J.

He fired a Barnaul hunting cartridge directly through a 12 mm steel plate.
With .308, K98, K31 does not work.

[Alexfly]

Explosia is Lovex now. 54R is stronger than .308, but weaker than 30.06.. It's only strange how you pierced a steel plate with an FMJ BT lead bullet, by the way, only 175 grains. From what distance, if not a secret?

[Arkebusier]

50m. I also shot through a steel plate with Czech military ammunition (a 148 grain bullet with a soft iron core).
The penetrating power of the Barnaul 174 grain hunting cartridge was 14 mm in diameter, the diameter of the Springfield 30-06 (180 grain bullet) was also 14 mm.

[Alexfly]

Czech bullet S&B 147 gr.. just lead, but I like Hornady more

[Cowbra]

Because the lapua is not needed. Piece weapons, piece specialists, and all of them are not in linear parts. Get infantry a kilometer？A machine gun is more useful
And the cartridges ... Gross 7.62 and 5.45 － this is on fire, it’s blazing right away, and Lapua, if they make the perfect cartridge right now and buy rifles for whoever needs it ... No one will even notice!

[Obliterator]

Quote: Cowbra

Piece weapons, piece specialists, and all of them are not in linear parts.

And what is the craftiness here? A sniper is not some kind of super-analyst, but a trite person with a stable nervous system and a technical mindset. That is, able to carry out in the head mathematical operations of the level of the 5th grade of high school in conditions of stress and limited time.

[KSVK]

"Cartridges .338 Lapua Magnum and .308 Winchester"
Of course, it is difficult to judge from the photo, but it looks very similar that in the photo 300 WM (left) and 30-06 on the right.
Here's for comparison:

On the left 8x68 in the center 30-06 on the right 308. You can clearly see the difference in the diameters of the bullets. And the .338's bullet is even thicker than the 8's.
In general, I apologize, the article is nothing. The fact that bullets are not able to make in our country is known even without references to 338.
And 338 is a very specific caliber. Certainly not for combined arms operations. As ammunition for all sorts of special forces, yes, there are no questions. But they use it anyway.

[bk0010]

Quote: KSVK

And 338 is a very specific caliber. Certainly not for combined arms operations.

the Americans are going to make a promising machine gun on it

[Obliterator]

Quote: KSVK

And 338 is a very specific caliber. Certainly not for combined arms operations. As ammunition for all sorts of special forces, yes, there are no questions. But they use it anyway.

The enemy uses this caliber specifically for combined arms operations. And yes, a sniper is always a special forces fighter, even when formally his unit is not listed as such.

[KSVK]

Quote: Nafanya from the couch

It looks like the author has never shot anything, but reads a lot of advertising. It is possible to hit the target at a distance of 1 km or more only with sports shooting at the XNUMXth shot or by accident.

But it seems to me that if you fired, then from a machine gun. But in real life, from a normal rifle, with a normal cartridge, even the 308th normally works for a kilometer. I put 5 out of 5 in the chest gong at 1029 meters. Although I'm far from being a sniper. Amateur. And with me, the guy shot 6,5 Creedmoor. Up to 1400 meters. And 338 works fine at ranges up to 1600 meters.

[yakisam]

I advise you to repeat your exercise like this:
A chest target appears at a distance of 1200 meters from you, albeit directly along the aiming axis, there is always haze around it (the battle is on) and at that moment a mortar salvo falls 50 meters from you, and you must (not knowing the wind and humidity on the aiming line ) to hit this "target" before it jumps into the trench, i.e. in about 5 seconds. If you hit, then you are a very lucky shooter, but I think that you have never shot like that.
I worked out this task from a machine gun (mortar shelling was simulated, of course) and my instructors said that if it doesn’t work out, then nothing can be done here, this is not a matter of skill, but experience, the main thing is to gain response experience.
And any caliber "works" if the sniper shoots at a reconnoitred target when he has a calculated aiming line. And I've never seen a clean line of sight for a flat shot at 1500 meters, honestly, except on the shooting range. I think that in the military life of a sniper, she will be ... not enough. So little that it makes no sense to even prepare for it.

[yakisam]

"So why do we have to produce the .338 Lapua Magnum?"
"This is where the .338 LM is needed, it can confidently occupy a niche between 7,62x54R and 12,7x108"

Between these two spells, I did not see - WHY do you need a sniper rifle of such power with such a cartridge?

You can design and even put into production weapons of any caliber, weight and design. The question is - why is it, and not "in general", but WHY is it for the ARMY?
What is its tactical niche in a particular type of troops at a particular level - squad, platoon, company, etc.
Are there targets for it that CANNOT be hit by existing means with existing structure? Only in this case it makes sense to TRY to estimate his role. If not, then introducing another type of weapon into the army is pointless, given the costs of its production, training, operation, supply of special ammunition, etc.

And, most importantly, in order to INTRODUCE it, you need to WITHDRAW other weapons, right?
Example. You introduce a super-duper-creative rifle into a motorized rifle platoon. There are as many fighters in a platoon as will fit in 3 infantry fighting vehicles, that is, one additional super-cool-shooter cannot be introduced OVER the state. Someone needs to be excluded. Whom? From which department? That is, in the platoon there will be branches of DIFFERENT composition. That is, the squad "reinforced" by the super-rifle will become WEAKER than the others in those tasks in which this rifle is not needed. And rushed .... And for what?
So I beg the author to tell you - WHY do you need a MASS rifle of "medium" between rifle and large-caliber caliber in the army? In what army? Which will repel the attacks of the cavalry, supported by war elephants with leopards on leashes? After all, .338 was born for them (safari).

The business of the army is to solve MULTIPLE tasks with the help of a UNIFIED weapon of a LIMITED set, and "tactics" is used to adapt the structure to the task - this is a science that requires a brain. And not "we need", "we must" ...

[IVZ]

Each task requires its own weapon and its own caliber. 338 LM is no longer something exotic or at least rare. This is a completely ordinary working tool for a sniper, at least in the armies of potential opponents, where it is quite successfully used, including in combined arms operations, for the most part, attached to HP. Once I went on a business trip to Solnechnogorsk to sniper competitions as an observer , year 2010 or so, the instructors praised this cartridge very much and complained that we did not have its production.

[yakisam]

And I ask - what is the task?
What is the task - such that it cannot be solved by the complex of available weapons in conjunction with the existing organizational and staff structure?
A "quite ordinary tool" is not an explanation of the task, it is a statement of a very sad fact - a type of weapon has become a "common tool" in the troops, for which there is not a sufficient range of tasks.
Snipers in competitions are very far from the realities of a mass army. It's like discussing the training of BMP drivers using the experience of WRC pilots.
What narrow specialists "praise" - almost always DO NOT NEED a mass army, and if implemented - HARMFUL. What can be used by selected, talented narrow specialists should exist in a single quantity, and not be related to the mass army, the effectiveness of which is in its uniformity and cheapness.
If someone "does not agree", then I am powerless. It's like disagreeing with the multiplication table.
This does not mean that you should not experiment with new and even original weapon systems. But only within the framework of the tasks that it must solve. Everything else is from the evil one

[IVZ]

Can you explain what a "mass army" is and what it still doesn't need from what it doesn't have?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: yakisam

And, most importantly, in order to INTRODUCE it, you need to WITHDRAW other weapons, right?

Not necessary. Sniper units, including those with bolters, appeared in our country back in the time of Serdyukov. And even then, for all sorts of AI AWs, there were problems with cartridges. The situation escalated after 2014, but, apparently, at that time several supply channels still managed to be laid.

Quote: yakisam

So I beg the author to tell you - WHY do you need a MASS rifle of "medium" between rifle and large-caliber caliber in the army?

And where in the article is it about a mass rifle under LM? We are talking about true sniper rifles that will be more accurate and long-range than the "shooter rifles" of the SVD, but at the same time not of such horse size and weight as ASVK and the like.
In fact, we are talking about an army sniper rifle for individual sniper units. It is a sniper, not a DMR for line infantry shooters.

Today we are armed with 7,62x54R rifles with an effective range of up to 1 meters. Both bolt and semi-automatic versions weigh an average of up to 000 kg and allow you to carry, in addition to yourself, spare weapons, as well as a decent ammunition load.
The next caliber immediately comes 12,7x108 mm for heavy machine guns and ASVK rifles. This ammunition belongs to the category of "anti-material" and is designed to disable lightly armored vehicles. Yes, they can shoot at enemy manpower, but the rifle weighs from 10 kg, has significant recoil, and it can hardly be called “light”. This is where the .338 LM comes in handy, it can confidently fill a niche between 7,62x54R and 12,7x108.

[yakisam]

This is the word game I'm talking about.
They said "sniper units" - and now, it's ready, so they are needed. This is called "hypertrophy of the syllogism" in logic. And why do we need sniper units with special weapons? What problem are they solving? In which part/connection? Who do they obey? Who sets the task? What is their supply system? Connections? What technique do they use? Who is covering them?
All these "special units" make sense when there is NO war. When it exists and goes EVERY not a day, but an HOUR, then the “special subdivisions” become the fifth wheel of the cart, which interferes with everyone and cannot do anything on its own, “under which” the entire organizational structure of subunits and units is being rebuilt, and in fact, it is broken, which cease to perform their tasks effectively and turn into poorly functioning parts of the support
What such an important task does the "sniper unit", which is armed with miracle rifles of .338 caliber, solve? What is its wonder? At a firing range of 1200+ meters? In the ability to disable a fighter in body armor?
It's all a word game, nothing more.
I advise you to go "on the ground" and show live - what possible targets will such a shooter have? Real, not polygon? Who will supply the shooter with information about targets located at such a distance from the shooter? What means to identify and detect them? What is their price? How many people will serve them? What qualification? These are all REAL questions, not chatter about a cartridge that allows you to "confidently hit targets at a distance of XXXX meters." This target can be hit by ALL the range of ammunition already available, IF the target is detected. The "cartridge" and "rifle" are discussed by people who have little idea of ​​the work of a sniper. All these topics were thoughtfully discussed in the Soviet army and all experts came to a conclusion that took into account ALL possible circumstances, and the name of this conclusion is SVD. There will be no need for other, more "cunning" and "wonderful" individual fire weapons.

[Zaurbek]

The Americans want to make the main machine gun under such a cartridge ... .. with a weight of 10kg and .50 ballistics

[IVZ]

Machine gun Sieg Sauer MG 338, but cartridge 338 Norma Magnum. Done.

[KSVK]

Quote: Zaurbek

The Americans want to make the main machine gun under such a cartridge ... ..

Wanting and doing a few different things, well, as for me.

Quote: Zaurbek

with a weight of 10kg and ballistics .50

Yeah. Physics is not for everyone. Its laws do not apply to God's chosen ones.
The saying immediately comes to mind: The coolness of the arrow does not affect the trajectory of the bullet in any way.

[Zaurbek]

Well, there is a program .... a 6,8 (or 6,5mm) cartridge for all riflemen, automatic rifles, a machine gun with a tape, self-loading rifles ... instead of 5,56mm and 7,61x51 and a machine gun for .338

[Alexfly]

a batch has already been made and purchased for testing in the troops in 6,8 SPC

[Zaurbek]

By the way, athletes use 338mm instead of .6,5, the ballistics are the same, but the return is less.

[Alexfly]

6,5 what? Grendel or Creedmoor? The Creedmoor has a bullet speed and trajectory that is claimed to be comparable to 300 WM.

[Zaurbek]

I don’t remember .... I watched the video of Razvedos from RUS and an experienced sniper told me. I remember that it is .338 that is very powerful and if you shoot every day, then it has a bad effect on the body.

[Negro]

There are several cartridges with similar ballistics. Creedmoor, 6,5x47 Lapua, 6.5-284 Norm. Grendel is less frequently mentioned in this context.
But the Baltic cartridges have become essentially the standard for shooting at 1000 yards. .338 is superfluous for this, and they are superior in accuracy to any 7,62 NATO or even 300WM.

[Negro]

There are confused systems for reducing the recoil force.

[Cowbra]

Quote: Obliterator

Quote: Cowbra

Piece weapons, piece specialists, and all of them are not in linear parts.

And what is the craftiness here? A sniper is not some kind of super-analyst, but a trite person with a stable nervous system and a technical mindset. That is, able to carry out in the head mathematical operations of the level of the 5th grade of high school in conditions of stress and limited time.

Is there a sniper in linemen in the state? Oops, no. The fighter with the Oar has a different task. The sharpshooter is called by "dear colleagues", in general, it can be replaced by a shooter with an AK-74, a 5.45 cartridge, similar in ballistics, would be of higher quality.

[Roman Skomorokhov]

Quote: Cowbra

in general, it can be replaced by a shooter with an AK-74, if the 5.45 cartridge, similar in ballistics, would be of higher quality.

And they replace. Frequent practice.

[Zaurbek]

Self-loading solves 80-90% of tasks ... the Americans also came to this. and introduced self-loading 7,62x51mm with optics. The balance between bolt and self-loading is important ...... 338 you can’t carry much on your hump. And army shooters do not always need such range and accuracy. By the way, there is also a direction .338 - self-loading. And they are also developing.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Zaurbek

Self-loading solves 80-90% of tasks ... the Americans also came to this. and introduced self-loading 7,62x51mm with optics. The balance between bolt and self-loading is important ....

We just have a traditional confusion with the classification. In the West, two classes have long been divided: infantry "marksmen" armed with self-loading optics (DMR), and snipers proper, armed with bolts for all sorts of exotic calibers. Marksmen are included in the line infantry staff (with the task of hitting group weapon crews and other important bipedal battlefield targets outside the effective range of 5,56), snipers are usually reduced to separate units.
In our country, both of these classes are combined into one - a sniper. So the people get confused, trying to understand why a "sharp shooter" needs a bolt, or trying to arm a "true sniper" of the SVD.

[Zaurbek]

These are the remnants of the Soviet system .... then there were no mass threats of terror, there were no various incomprehensible conflicts .... And now you have the LDNR and PMCs, etc. And for purely military operations, the SVD solved even 90% of the problems .... and if you take into account modern sights, gunpowder, bullets .... barrels .... then the SVD will reach a fairly high elite level.

[Sancho_SP]

Yeah, and again we produce calibers. We already have problems with them, with quantity.

As for special forces weapons, where thousands of rifles are needed, and millions of cartridges, it is quite acceptable to make cartridges at Tsniitochmash for expensive and generally any. But if you need an order of magnitude or two more, then it’s better not to even start.

[agond]

If, say, the first side has massively switched to 8,68 × 70 mm, then the second side will not need body armor, but the first side will still need it because they somehow protect against 5.45, therefore the first will be forced to wear both protection and a 6kg heavy automatic rifle and ammunition for it , and the latter will save on the weight of heavy protection, due to which they can increase the ammunition load or something else, I wonder how this will affect in practice
By the way, at distances of a kilometer and further, you can get there, but only at a clearly distinguishable and stationary target, and if there is dust or some kind of haze ...

[Sancho_SP]

Considering that the main losses of infantry in any case do not occur from handgun fire, bulletproof vests will definitely not become unnecessary)

Well, you can’t go “massively” to 338. You can’t do an automatic machine on such a cartridge anyway. Only a rifle and a machine gun.

With a rifle, everything is clear, discussed above. Good, but expensive.

With a machine gun it's more difficult. What kind of machine gun will it be? Manual, uniform, heavy, for technology?

If manual (even skipping technical nuances), then this is an additional caliber in the department and logistics problems.

If it is one, then the same problems, because the cartridge is already different from the machine gun cartridge on the vehicle.

If heavy, then 12,7 is even better.


Changing the cartridge is good and useful in the event that the nomenclature, on the contrary, decreases.

For example, replacing 5.45 and 7.62 (both) with 6x49 in squad and platoon is a good trend.

[Plate]

then the second side will not need body armor

Yes, stop it! Stomp on the enemy without protection from his weapons? Do we have many people? It is in Europe and the States that a billion lives in total, and we are 6 times less. This means that the losses should be at least in the same ratio, and moreover, in our favor. So we reject your reasoning in the bud and come to the opposite. This is us such guns are needed so that all their armor becomes useless. So that until they get to one of ours, they will lose 6 of their own, and then another one or two in a shootout, until they finally knock them down.

[Alexfly]

We have a problem with cartridges and cases, 54R has been used for over 130 years without visible change ...

[Sancho_SP]

Quote: AlexFly

We have a problem with cartridges and cases, 54R has been used for over 130 years without visible change ...

Actually, so what? Need to change the shape of the sleeve, what would be like the Germans?

[Alexfly]

Instead of a rim, a recess. Remove slight taper. Increase the length to 55, for example. It would make excellent ammunition ..

[Sancho_SP]

Quote: AlexFly

Instead of a rim, a recess. Remove slight taper. Increase the length to 55, for example. It would make excellent ammunition ..

Well… why? Replacing a caliber in the army is incredibly expensive. If there are no fundamental advantages as a result, then no one will contact.

[Alexfly]

For example, for hunting ... Our own Russian cartridge, and not a surrogate based on a military cartridge ... Without developing this, we will remain with the homemade 54R for another 150 years ....

[Sancho_SP]

For hunting in the budget segment, the 54R is quite normal for the next 150 years.

In the expensive segment, buy anything for your health. Cartridges for bourgeois carbines need five orders of magnitude less than for the army, and the price of even Swiss cartridges is a hundred times less than the price of a license for an elk or a bear.

[Zaurbek]

we do not have such calibers and .338 piece weapons for piece specialists.

[Eraser]

As for "... you can only get a kilometer from a bolt by accident ..." I can say that for a fairly experienced shooter, even with. 308 caliber, hitting a chest target at 800 m is a routine task (Rem700 24", Sierra, Norma bullet, x24 scope). As for the position of a high-precision sniper in the OShS, it is seen as a sniper pair subordinate to a company commander as part of the control department. And used should, first of all, as reconnaissance observers with the ability to hit especially valuable targets at a distance of up to 1,5 km.

[riwas]

The next caliber immediately comes 12,7x108 mm for heavy machine guns and ASVK rifles.

For long-range sniping, the .408 caliber is more suitable. In our country, only Lobaev makes rifles for him.

[Mikhalych]

[bProduced in Russia, gunpowder does not have outstanding characteristics and especially stability, which is unacceptable in the framework of high-precision shooting.][/b]

In Russia, gunpowder was created not on the basis of cotton, but on the basis of flax. These propellants have 30% more power than "cotton" propellants and 4 times better stability. So there is no need to sniff under the tail of Western s-k.
It is not gunpowder that is distinguished by its outstanding characteristics, but effective managers and ministers. . . Yes, and there are enough enemies among them. Look how much washed away.

[agond]

It's right !!! you literally in the spirit of words, expressed the whole point

[Alexfly]

Not a .308 in the photo.. Look at a .308 loaded with various bullets for small-arms shooting..
In the Russian Federation, unfortunately, there is no development of its own cartridges and calibers, everyone trails behind the US and the EU, it has its own reserves, but they are used for surrogate sports in the form of civilian weapons ...

[Yrec]

There is such a thing called the "war economy" (forget about sports and other shootings in our country). It makes no sense to create a production line for ONE sniper cartridge. We have all sniper cartridges included in the form factor with gross. It is easier to buy 10000 pieces than to fence production for the same 10000 pieces.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Yrec

It makes no sense to create a production line for ONE sniper cartridge.

From the point of view of a sniper, there is just that - so that they no longer give him zinc cartridges for a machine gun for a sniper rifle.
And yes, my favorite photo is hello, Barnaul:

Cartridges are taken from one pack (or rather, from the remainder of this pack). The difference in landing a bullet in a sleeve is up to 1.5 mm.

© Andrey Ulanov

[Yrec]

Well, the same will be sniper cartridges. Is it necessary?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Yrec

Well, the same will be sniper cartridges. Is it necessary?

No. This is precisely the gross product under the average shooter.
If you do not make a special line for a sniper rifle, the sniper will receive approximately the same secondary product. It's like getting a machine gun cartridge instead of 7N1 or 7N14 for SVD.

[Yrec]

We would make gross cartridges of normal quality. On a sniper with Lapa, I suppose, all the surrounding squirrels come running to look at it as a wonderful miracle. And a platoon sniper with an SVD from the same cap with a machine gunner is charging - that's for sure.

[Alexfly]

And at first I thought the bullets were different in weight and size, that is, in length ..

[KSVK]

Quote: yakisam

I advise you to repeat your exercise like this:

You, most kind, leave such exercises for fighting hamsters. And I'm already a little old to fight.
Once again, what you described is the work of MARXMAN. The sniper works in several other conditions. And the fact that in our Armed Forces there is no division into MARXMAN and SNIPER is very bad. For our aircraft.

[KSVK]

Quote: yakisam

After all, .338 was born for them (safari).

Well, actually the 338 was never designed for safari. There are completely different calibers. You should pull up the materiel, dear.

Quote: yakisam

The business of the army is to solve MULTIPLE tasks with the help of a UNIFIED weapon of a LIMITED set, and "tactics" is used to adapt the structure to the task - this is a science that requires a brain. And not "we need", "we must" ...

Then why don't you explain to me, a purely civilian, who does not have a "tactical brain" why, excuse me, the hell is the 9x39 cartridge adopted by us? I dare to assume that for some specific tasks. Then why can't 338 become the same ammunition? Well, about the removal and addition. Have you heard the term "amplification"? With your brain? A platoon / company needs to be "reinforced" with sniper pairs. To solve specific problems. When needed.

[Pukanpein]

Actually it was created. Just right for hunting. Like a cheap analog 375 magnum

[Dedok]

Quote: Sergey Averchenkov

And yes, it is possible. But it has nothing to do with war.

we are talking about opportunities in the army, and the war is only later, when there are these opportunities ...
nothing has been done since 1974? this needs to be discussed - the budget of the Moscow Region is huge ...

[Dedok]

Quote: Alexey RA

From the point of view of a sniper, there is just that - so that they no longer give him zinc cartridges for a machine gun for a sniper rifle. smile
And yes, my favorite photo is hello, Barnaul:

and since Soviet times, something has changed in production? money - in the equipment invested?
I think not, everyone is only interested in the "pocket".
I suspect that the equipment in Barnaul is from pre-war times, i.e. 30s of the last century

[Cowbra]

Quote: KSVK

in real life from a normal rifle, with a normal cartridge, even the 308th normally works for a kilometer.

The Nomokonov of the first two Fritz put a thousand meters ... And from an open sight. Well, let’s say I put seven out of 500 from the SCS clip at .10 with a cigarette pack ... Another thing is that when I licked a carbine ... Call me, maybe I didn’t get more than one medal, for example, the European Championship?

[agond]

Quote: Cowbra

put it a thousand meters ... And from an open sight.

This is the kind of vision you need...

[Cowbra]

Quote: agond

Quote: Cowbra

put it a thousand meters ... And from an open sight.

This is the kind of vision you need...

Well, this is a confirmed fact ... But what is it - not an ordinary case at all ... Who can argue.
Well, by the way, Mosinka and Paddle, even though the cartridge is the same ... Oh, different, that's completely ... Even the gross Mosinka, not the sniper one. And not only the fact that one bolt, the second self-loading

[Common sense]

Quote: Sergey Averchenkov

We kind of talked about 1-1.5 thousand meters? Not? And so you are right ... and even then not quite - who will sharpen bullets on a lathe during the war?

Well, well, but if, let's say, you need to hit a target at a distance of 800-900 meters? For SVD, this is considered the limit (in most cases, even "beyond"). This is where a .338 caliber rifle could help out.

[Pukanpein]

The author of the article apparently forgot about the SADU, caliber 9 mm. Here it is the domestic analogue of 338. Please develop the topic. Something is not available for this cartridge of bolt rifles, which is a pity.