Su-57 and S-70: combat pair or combat myth?

211

For a long time there was nothing about our successes in the field of aircraft construction, but this is not surprising: all eyes are riveted to a somewhat different area. The situation revived somewhat by Victory Day, when an air parade was to take place, at which ...

However, it doesn't matter. The parade did not take place due to "weather reasons", although the Muscovites will not let you lie, the weather was perfect. But nothing, just think, the parade of planes ... The parade is not the main thing, for us the process itself is much more important. After all, even the country's chief meteorologist Roman Vilfand could not really explain the reason for the cancellation of the air part of the parade. And according to the leading specialist of the Phobos weather center Mikhail Leus, a strong gusty wind could also interfere with the air part of the parade.



But Peskov said that the weather is bad, which means that it is so.

It is a pity, of course, that the Russian Aerospace Forces can operate only in exceptionally favorable weather conditions. Which took place in Moscow, but now it really doesn't matter. The balloons and airships that are in service with the Aerospace Forces, of course, are very dependent on the weather.

So all the media that could, began to discuss and cover the preparations and dress rehearsal of the parade.

Naturally, a group of Su-57 fighters, which were supposed to participate in the parade, came into view. And the keel of one of them was decorated with stylistic images of the Su-57 itself and a certain aircraft, in which you can, if you wish, recognize the same “Hunter”, a strike UAV that so far exists in one (two) copies.


Naturally, there were many interesting hypotheses around this image, some of which we will try to discuss now.

The press service of the UAC (the site of the Sukhoi company is “under development”) has repeatedly reported that the S-70 can fly in conjunction with the Su-57 and interact, hitting ground and air targets with its set of weapons as part of the so-called network-centric interaction.

Today, in general, many believe that a bunch of aircraft - UAV has a pretty decent prospect. The interaction of aircraft and cheaper unmanned vehicles that can clear the way for aircraft with their on-board weapons.

The UAC believes that the joint use of an aircraft and a strike UAV has a future. With the joint use of UAVs, they will be able to solve a very wide range of tasks, working on ground and air targets under the control of a flying command center as part of network-centric interaction.

The UAC emphasized that they are considering various concepts for the use of unmanned systems, depending on the conditions and tasks of operations.

Let's take a look at our couple. Not closely, without performance characteristics.


The Su-57 is a fighter designed to destroy all types of air targets, destroy enemy ground and surface targets with overcoming air defense systems, as well as to monitor airspace far from the base and disable the enemy’s control system.

A fairly wide range of capabilities, which should be provided by an equally wide range of weapons. This is clear.

According to UAC experts, the Su-57 is hardly noticeable due to the special hull design and radar-absorbing coating, and is able to successfully solve the entire range of tasks that will be assigned to it.


The S-70 Okhotnik, for which there is very little data, can fly up to 6 kilometers at a speed of 000 to 1000 km/h. The number of weapons carried is kept secret, but if we were shown hitting a target with a 1400 kg bomb, then the UAV is capable of taking at least two tons of various weapons. The maximum is left to guess. They write - eight, but as a matter of fact ...

Why does an airplane need a drone?

In general, the concept seems to be simple: the UAV can be used as a radar carrier to increase the aircraft's viewing radius, roughly speaking, to let it go forward, to clear the way. A less noticeable "Hunter" could cope with such a task. In addition, the drone could use its weapons, for example, on enemy radars capable of detecting an aircraft. Distract enemy planes and the like.

True, there are doubts about the effectiveness of such cooperation. The cost of the Su-57 is estimated at about 2,3 billion rubles. The first five devices (2 finished and 3 under construction) S-70 cost the budget 1,6 billion rubles. Of course, the S-70 is much cheaper, but not so much that it can be spent on trifles.

In 2019, the Su-57 and S-70 conducted a joint flight for the first time. The S-70 worked out interaction with the Su-57 in automatic mode. The main task was to expand the radar field of the fighter and for target designation of targets for the Su-57 without the latter entering the zone of conditional enemy air defense countermeasures.


Options for interaction have been identified. Work continued.

But in 2021, something strange began to happen. In June last year, many Russian media began to publish materials on the topic that "the pilot of the Su-57 will be able to simultaneously coordinate the actions of two to four "Hunters".

Judging by the links, TASS was the initiator, followed by Rossiyskaya Gazeta, Vzglyad, Arguments and Facts, and other media outlets that did not bother to comprehend what was written.

The only portal that was more than skeptical was warspot.ru. The rest habitually huddled in a paroxysm of "And we've done it all again."

For some reason, it never occurred to anyone that the unfortunate Su-57 pilot, who would somehow have to try to fly FOUR "Hunters" at once, would still have to pilot his own plane in some incomprehensible way.

Rave. Obviously, none of those who simply rewrote the letters from the unconfirmed TASS message knows what it is like to control an ordinary copter. And, say, at the same time typing a message on the phone. That's something similar and was supposed to take a fighter pilot.

It is not necessary to analyze another stupidity performed by the Russian biased media, in fact, it is already clear that the boundaries of the reasonable were somewhat violated in the creation of the victory.

True, the defense industry realized that something strange was going on and corrected themselves, saying that a special two-seat control aircraft would be created specifically for such a case. A sort of command version of the Su-57.

Not much better. No, it’s already good that at the top they realized that one person would not be able to control FIVE aircraft. With his plane and four UAVs.

True, few people thought about how one person would manage four "Hunters". Perhaps for some it seems like some kind of computer-aided shooting game, but in reality everything is somewhat more complicated.

Moreover, neither the UAC nor the Sukhoi Corporation confirmed the information about the development of a two-seat control aircraft based on the Su-57 either.

But the domestic "experts" had a lot of fun, inventing how interesting the combination of the Su-57 and S-70 turned out to be.


For example, the "expert" RT Knutov gave this:

“The Su-57 is a unique machine, especially in combination with drone "Hunter". In fact, they form a complex that can be attributed to the sixth generation. The drone can overcome air defense systems at low altitudes, clearing the space for the Su-57 to advance.”

We present this picture: a 25-ton machine, with a wingspan of 19 meters (by the way, more than that of the Su-57), flies at low altitude, pretending to be a paper airplane and trying to depict something in relation to air defense, clearing the way for the Su -57.

Su-57 and S-70: combat pair or combat myth?

Not at night, the aforementioned Bayraktar, which is smaller in length (6,5 meters versus 14), with a smaller wing (12 meters versus 19), less weight (650 kg versus 25 kg) and possessing, however, a lower speed, but obviously less noticeable, easily knocked down by everyone, from anti-aircraft gun systems and MANPADS to anti-aircraft missile systems.

It’s hard for me to say what the “experts” are counting on when sending such a machine as the S-70 to fly at low altitude. It is just as difficult to say where our media get such “experts”.

Move on. The same "expert" colorfully painted what an advantage the presence of such a "command post" on the basis of the Su-57 would give. And how much the integration of a network-centric control system will increase the effectiveness of air combat.

In general, Yuri Albertovich Knutov, director of the Air Defense Museum in Balashikha, does not have a very good idea of ​​​​managing four aircraft. But the trouble is the beginning:

“With such a system, the Su-57 will be able to control not only drones, but also Su-35 aircraft. This is actually a small command post. Moreover, it can interact with ground systems, transmitting information to them. This is the basis of our future aviationwhen there will be unified air and ground-based complexes capable of solving many tasks to destroy the enemy quickly and efficiently.

Yes, this is the opinion of one person who presents himself as an expert. But how many others repeated what Knutov said ...

A “small command post” that can act as a hypothetical two-seat Su-57 should already exist. And it's called the A-50. In fact, it is an AWACS aircraft, which can easily carry out target designation for aircraft and UAVs. Moreover, doing this is much better than an improvised "command post" hastily created from a single-seat fighter.

If we talk about the fact that it makes sense to create an air CP for drones, then this can be implemented on the basis of an An-26 type aircraft. And it will be very easy for such a command post to control the UAV, following them at a distance, outside the enemy air defense coverage area, under the cover of their fighters.

And from the board of such an aircraft, not one, but as many operators as needed will control the "Hunters". Based on one operator per UAV, as is customary throughout the world.

Everything else, excuse me, is stupidity performed by people who, although they call themselves "experts", did not take the control panel from the Mavik into their hands.

Clearing a path for planes with UAVs is not a good idea. A pilot in the cockpit of a fighter-bomber is many times better in control of the environment than an UAV operator looking through cameras in the cabin of a flying CP. An operator flying an UAV from the cockpit of a fighter-bomber would have a better understanding of the situation, but controlling more than one UAV looks very doubtful.

And thus, a bunch of "one aircraft - one UAV" is obtained. Moreover, the aircraft must be double. The navigator-operator will direct the actions of the drone from his workplace. That is, he will have to have flight training in this regard. But this is really the easiest task to solve.

I don’t know if it’s worth arranging another budget cut and creating on the basis of the Su-57, which, admittedly, didn’t really go into the series, a two-seat modification, when we are armed with just a wonderful Su-34 aircraft, in which you can find a place for placing UAV control equipment. And which, it seems to me, is most suitable for such operations as flight control of an unmanned vehicle, although, of course, large-sized and high-resolution screens will be more appropriate in the cabin of a transport aircraft than in a fighter cockpit.

Doubt is caused not only by the ability of the S-70 at low altitude to quietly fly up to the air defense system and work on it with standard weapons. There is still doubt that the operator flying behind the "Hunter" will be able to properly control the device. Still, in the cockpit there is no place for screens that can show the situation around the UAV, which will fly 100-120 km ahead of the aircraft.

The "experts" did not think about this.

So does the Su-57-S-70 linkage have any future?


Further experiments will show. So far, the S-70 can only be considered as a flying additional magazine with rockets and bombs, which can be activated while maintaining the aircraft's ammunition load.

Moreover, a very expensive store.

And you can arbitrarily make plans in terms of emotions for how the unmanned "Hunters" will go ahead of the Su-57 and "clear the way for them." In fact, a cruise missile is a much cheaper and more effective way to suppress enemy air defense systems than a huge and clumsy, albeit relatively fast drone, comparable to an airplane in mass.

Let's put it this way: a combination of Su-57 and S-70 is nothing more than a conceptual model, which in our conditions can be implemented no earlier than in 10 years. Why? Because we still have less than a dozen Su-57s in the Aerospace Forces, and God forbid that by 2028 the order, according to which 76 of these aircraft should be in the Aerospace Forces, is not disrupted.

As for the S-70 Okhotnik, the two built copies are nothing more than an object of testing and verifying the correctness of the developed application concept.

And the fact that checks and tests are underway is not yet evidence that the S-70 will actually go into production and enter service. The device is original and quite expensive. And this in our reality ruined more than one project. "Armata", "Coalition", "Kurganets" ...

So drawing attention to projects is useful, first of all, for the projects themselves. And, if the work on the projects goes according to plans, then the option is quite possible in which aircraft and drones will interact.

No - another myth will appear on the ruins of the budget, like a fairy tale about a thousand "Armat" in tank troops of the Russian army.
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211 comments
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  1. The comment was deleted.
    1. +18
      14 May 2022 06: 20
      Quote: ism_ek
      I remember a year or two ago, the author asked the question: "Why do we need an expensive Su-34 when there is a Su-24 that recommended itself well in Syria?" The war in Ukraine answered the author's question. And if we were able to move on to the fifth generation of aircraft, we would already dominate the skies over Ukraine.
      We need a heavy drone. And this should not be an analogue of the American Reapers, which, thanks to the screw, are clearly visible on radars and are easy prey for air defense.

      And why do we need the Su-34 after all? It is shot down by the old Buk-M1 in the same way as the Su-24. How much have we already lost? Minimum 5 cars.
      We need our own Reaper with an internal combustion engine, which allows us to hang in the air for days. With the same cool avionics. About invisibility / visibility is a myth. All these machines are visible on the radar in any case. This Hunter is money down the toilet. Another dead project with no future.
      1. -17
        14 May 2022 08: 12
        Do you really think that all wars can be like local conflicts like in Ukraine?

        The Su-57 and S-70 were created for other, larger-scale tasks, and in fact, at the moment, these 2 vehicles are the most advanced military weapons ever created by man.
        1. +14
          14 May 2022 08: 48
          the most advanced military weapon ever created by man

          only this part does not allow you to put a plus stop
          The fact that this bundle is for the future is unequivocal, the question is how far.
          The fact that the author assumes the control of the hunter as a quadric is nonsense, and it is nonsense that the control of the co-pilot of the su 57, and, moreover, the operator of the A50 (I personally do not believe that AWACS aircraft will be in the air 24/7 in the event of a full-scale war - they are excellent targets.
          The operator will determine the combat formation, i.e. where they will be located relative to the main aircraft and the main tasks: opening the air defense system, launching on previously explored targets, on radars, on targets that the homing head can capture, cover SU 57 (assuming a strike on oneself ) etc.
        2. +20
          14 May 2022 09: 01
          Quote from blade3
          Do you really think that all wars can be like local conflicts like in Ukraine?

          Do you all believe fairy tales about a local conflict? If this is not a full-fledged war, then what is a war?
          1. 0
            14 May 2022 11: 21
            OK. Limited theater of war
            1. +6
              14 May 2022 12: 36
              Quote from blade3
              OK. Limited theater of war

              I also disagree with the limited one, the two largest European powers are kneading each other. It doesn’t pull on the World War, but it’s quite a full-fledged two states.
      2. +13
        14 May 2022 08: 33
        Quote: FRoman1984
        And why do we need the Su-34 after all? It is shot down by the old Buk-M1 in the same way as the Su-24. How much have we already lost? Minimum 5 cars.

        Absolutely not needed! I propose switching to wooden biplanes - it is more problematic to shoot them down with a Buk than all modern prodigies! At the same time, we can put together the cost of a penny in any barn!
        1. 0
          14 May 2022 08: 50
          Absolutely not needed! I propose switching to wooden biplanes - it is more problematic to shoot them down with a Buk than all modern prodigies! At the same time, we can put together the cost of a penny in any barn!

          Even if it's sarcasm, there is some truth in it. During the Second World War, the survival rate of the I-153 attack biplane was much higher than that of the armored Il-2. Some aviation officials asked to let Seagull out again.
          The seagull did not need to be escorted by fighters, she herself was a fighter, of course she could not fulfill the main purpose of fighters to intercept high-speed bombers, but in the battle against the Me-109 she went to low altitudes and, with the help of maneuvering, won the battle, which Messer was incapable of due to its high speed, albeit without shooting down the German, but won, so the Messers who attacked the attack aircraft were simply forced to give up the desire to shoot down Chaika, IL-2 in such a situation went down quickly, heavily armored, they could not make such turns and suffered heavy losses. Also, unlike the Il-2, the I-153 biplane was able to dive and shoot accurately with RSs. At the beginning of the war, the legendary Rechkalov shot down Messerschmit on this perfect Polikarpov biplane with the help of rockets, and he also destroyed a couple of tanks with RSami.
          Well, in modern conditions, the speed of this biplane is higher than the speeds of our multi-ton helicopters, costing a BILLION RUBLES., Well, maneuvering is much faster, and there is less thermal radiation ... draw conclusions
          1. +7
            14 May 2022 09: 17
            Quote: Konnick
            Even if it's sarcasm

            What sarcasm? All these Su-57s and S-70s, along with the Ka-52 and Mi-28, are in the furnace!
            Here is the future of the videoconferencing:


            1. +5
              14 May 2022 09: 33
              What sarcasm?

              I hope only R-5 is not needed here.
              At one time, American biplanes began to win in aerial acrobatics, but the FIA ​​banned them because of ... sizes! It is difficult to observe these super-swivel aircraft with a wingspan of only 6,6 meters, for example, the Acro Sport, the Mi-24 helicopter has a rotor diameter that is almost three times larger. The speed is the same with a 180 hp motor. Takeoff from a 50 meter platform. Double. Draw your own conclusions.
        2. +6
          14 May 2022 10: 48
          Quote from U_GOREC
          I propose switching to wooden biplanes - it is more problematic to shoot them down with a Buk than all modern prodigies!

          So you wanted to swindle, but in fact the current trend is exactly that. Instead of a super-sophisticated aircraft, they are circling over the battlefield, although not plywood, but plastic drones of a penny price, small in size, practically invisible to radar, but ubiquitous. Always, anywhere, at any time, such a drone will be in the air, see everything, instantly transmit information, and, if necessary, strike with its small bomb pointwise, but painfully.
          1. +4
            14 May 2022 11: 04
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            and if necessary, hit with your small bomb pointwise, but painful.

            How small? Gram 100 in TNT equivalent? And for what purposes is this calculated? And by the way, I have nothing against a swarm of drones!
            1. +10
              14 May 2022 11: 35
              Quote from U_GOREC
              How small? Gram 100 in TNT equivalent?

              The other day, they recalled a scheme with a hand grenade in a glass. Gram 60, if I'm not mistaken. But if at the right moment it is thrown into the hatch of a tank or a dugout window, then there will be more benefit from this than from a package of "hail", from which not a single rocket will fall into that dugout.
              1. Egg
                +1
                14 May 2022 12: 34
                Quote: Jacket in stock
                throw into the hatch of the tank or the window of the dugout

                or throw it on a sniper, and just into a trench with enemies :)
                1. The comment was deleted.
              2. +7
                14 May 2022 12: 40
                Quote: Jacket in stock
                The other day, they recalled a scheme with a hand grenade in a glass. Gram 60, if I'm not mistaken. But if at the right moment it is thrown into the hatch of a tank or a dugout window, then there will be more benefit from this than from a package of "hail", from which not a single rocket will fall into that dugout.

                I just imagined loitering drones waiting for the hatches of the tanks to open ...
              3. +3
                14 May 2022 16: 11
                Ukrainians, by the way, adapted the Soviet anti-tank grenade for these purposes. A plastic stabilizer tail is printed on a 3D printer. And 4 such grenades are suspended under an industrial drone. Strike technique from above. It does not throw very accurately, of course, since there are no sighting devices (there are none yet). But in motionless it can.
                1. +1
                  15 May 2022 08: 30
                  Quote: ratcatcher
                  Ukrainians, by the way, adapted the Soviet anti-tank grenade for these purposes. A plastic stabilizer tail is printed on a 3D printer. And 4 such grenades are suspended under an industrial drone. Strike technique from above. It does not throw very accurately, of course, since there are no sighting devices (there are none yet). But in motionless it can.

                  Well, we also have a proverb: the need for inventions is cunning. Only all this does not come from a good life ...
                  1. 0
                    15 May 2022 18: 06
                    Certainly. But now household drones are of great benefit to soldiers. Used as much as possible.
                    Here is an example - how our Donetsk infantry uses drones heavily:
                    https://t.me/wargonzo/6966
                2. +1
                  16 May 2022 23: 34
                  Several videos were shown.
                  From 2-3 times, a quadcopter from Ali-Express with such home-made "mortar mines" destroyed infantry fighting vehicles standing in shelters.
          2. +1
            14 May 2022 13: 34
            With primitive artificial intelligence, a drone can act on the principle of a predator: if it sees it, it shoots back.
            1. +1
              15 May 2022 08: 31
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              With primitive artificial intelligence, a drone can act on the principle of a predator: if it sees it, it shoots back.

              It's not a predator, it's a cable laughing
              1. +6
                15 May 2022 10: 34
                The cable serves to supply voltage.
                A male, in the sense of a male, functions only during the rut. The rest of the time - it acts on a small accessible target individually, and on a large one - as part of a flock, i.e. network-centric.
                1. +1
                  15 May 2022 10: 56
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  The cable serves to supply voltage.
                  A male, in the sense of a male, functions only during the rut. The rest of the time - it acts on a small accessible target individually, and on a large one - as part of a flock, i.e. network-centric.

                  Sorry for the spelling mistake) Network-centric dog wedding laughing
          3. +4
            14 May 2022 21: 57
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            drones of a penny price, small size, ... Anytime, Anywhere, Any Time such a drone will be in the air

            I would like to see such a penny drone with unlimited range and flight duration
            1. +1
              15 May 2022 08: 32
              Quote: A1845
              I would like to see such a penny drone with unlimited range and flight duration

              Squirts with helium
        3. +2
          15 May 2022 07: 37
          By the way, there is a homespun truth here ... I remember I served Dzhankoy on the Il-28 ... Flights ... The weather deteriorated, an Afghan blew out, it was hot. We are not canceling flights, we are waiting for the weather ... Suddenly we hear something rumbles in the sky ... And this is the An-2, sawing quietly for itself ... And scored on the weather ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
      3. +10
        14 May 2022 09: 58
        Quote: FRoman1984
        And why do we need the Su-34 after all? It is shot down by the old Buk-M1 in the same way as the Su-24. How much have we already lost? Minimum 5 cars.

        Su-34 losses were at the beginning of the campaign. When during the departure the plane was fired up to 4 times. The Su-34 can get away from one Buk, but not from two ... three - it's not a fighter. Su-24 has no chance to get away from Buk (((
      4. 0
        14 May 2022 21: 50
        Quote: FRoman1984
        money in the toilet

        it is worth noting that our outskirts lack elementary things, against this background, the passion for miracle projects does not look quite appropriate
    2. +15
      14 May 2022 06: 30
      I don't quite agree with you. Why did you decide that the presence of fifth-generation aircraft would give us air supremacy? The fifth generation does not have an overwhelming advantage over the fourth. In addition, in Ukraine, it is not aviation that annoys, but air defense. And it is not so easy to deal with mobile complexes created in the USSR. That's why they're mobile. From 300 from the march, it turns around in 5 minutes. And 20 after the salvo leaves. Americans provide intelligence. It is not easy to deal with such ambushes. Even NATO, having suppressed the air defense of Iraq, still suffered losses from single ones from 75. So I doubt that the fifth generation would have changed anything. Here, dlro aircraft, jammers, would be handy. Moreover, the characteristics of guidance stations and frequencies are known
      1. +16
        14 May 2022 07: 15
        Quote: Lykases1
        . Americans provide intelligence

        Where do they get them from? Their scouts cannot hang over Ukraine only from Poland and Romania, but the range of their radars does not allow them to control the Donbass .. Only satellites remain .. But they, as they say, cannot give information in real time, I coordinate air defense actions .. That's the question of how receives Ukrainian air defense information about targets? There is more of a question for our intelligence and an even bigger question for electronic warfare, which, according to statements (before the SVO), even our "partners" has no analogues! It seems that they lied while lulling their vigilance .. So there are a lot of questions for the RER and other intelligence services, it seems that this segment is the biggest failure of our army ..
        1. +9
          14 May 2022 07: 49
          I didn't mean it. The satellite detects the movement of aviation, an air defense complex moves into the area, turns around, launches, leaves. It is really hardly possible to aim from a satellite. Yes, and not so perfect complexes to suggest such an option. Plus, I don’t know how far the dlro plane shines. Maybe they still get it. And at the expense of electronic warfare, yes, it’s not clear. They seem to be there, but they get in touch with Azovstal. Why don't they mute? Secret.
          1. +17
            14 May 2022 08: 01
            Here, either we greatly underestimate the enemy’s satellite constellation of its capabilities (hello to AUGophiles), or we have a mess in intelligence at all levels .. that is, the radars of air defense stations work quite well for Ukrainians and for some reason we do not destroy them .. AWACS maximum 800 km and then it’s not clear how to get to the Donbass, but our electronic warfare doesn’t seem to exist at all, because the enemy’s CIVIL copters work quite well, excellent connection with fast Internet ..
            1. +8
              14 May 2022 08: 43
              Well, Russia has always been famous for its mess. And yes, I agree with you. Cause some moments of slight bewilderment
              1. +7
                14 May 2022 15: 38
                What a kind and reserved person you are.
                For me, these "moments" cause an acute feeling of bitterness and powerless anger. am
              2. -1
                16 May 2022 13: 41
                The phrase "Well, Russia has always been famous for the mess" sounds different for those who are here "on the couch" and for those who are there in the trench.
                1. +2
                  16 May 2022 17: 06
                  Definitely. But in your words I hear some kind of reproach. Before lying down on the sofa, 22 years ago, I happened to take part in a counter-terrorist operation in the North Caucasus region. So I don't feel guilty that someone is fighting and I'm on the couch.
                  1. 0
                    16 May 2022 17: 25
                    I'm not talking about the fact that you personally do not fight, but a little about something else.
                    1. 0
                      16 May 2022 17: 47
                      Well then, excuse me.
          2. +12
            14 May 2022 09: 10
            Quote: Lykases1
            the traveler detects the movement of aviation, an air defense complex moves into the area, turns around, launches, leaves.

            In theory, jammers and aircraft with radar missiles should be in the outfit of aviation forces. As soon as the operation of the radar is detected, immediately launch on it, and then jam with interference (this is possible, because modern missiles remember the point where the signal comes from). I am tormented by vague doubts that we have no battlefield EW aircraft as a class.
            1. +4
              14 May 2022 09: 53
              I haven't heard of these either. But the amers - I heard. It is sad if the Ministry of Defense does not pay attention to this direction.
          3. +2
            14 May 2022 10: 28
            Of course, I am not special in this, but does the air defense manage to follow the plane into the area?
            1. -1
              14 May 2022 11: 26
              There is a range. If you don't get it, you can move on. You will succeed - you will not have time - how lucky. And of course, at adequate distances. Plus - moving to the area of ​​​​the alleged attack. But these are my thoughts. I'm not a Pvoshnik.
              1. +2
                14 May 2022 12: 30
                I still think that air defense does not follow planes ..
                1. +2
                  16 May 2022 10: 58
                  Quote: vitvit123
                  I still think that air defense does not follow planes ..


                  Air defense travels over objects that are targets for aircraft.

                  So in essence - yes, air defense goes after planes.
                  1. -2
                    16 May 2022 12: 37
                    This is in your essence .., but our dialogue with the opponent began with a different essence .. in your essence, the planes themselves go to air defense to be shot down and you can come up with more essences ..
                  2. 0
                    7 July 2022 03: 35
                    Not really, not really! There are areas of exemplary air attack, there are areas of cover. In the organized Armed Forces, in the Air Defense Forces, everything is clearly spelled out. There are even areas of exemplary ambush .. Everything else in the form of nomadic complexes is already due to the fact that there is no management organization.
            2. +5
              14 May 2022 12: 39
              Quote: vitvit123
              air defense manages to follow the aircraft to the area

              If the air defense is dispersed, then in the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXboperation of aviation, there will still be some kind of complex. The Armed Forces of Ukraine abandoned the tactics of covering objects, they do not need layered air defense. Their task is to knock out our aircraft, and for these purposes, dispersal is the most it.
              1. -1
                15 May 2022 08: 12
                In our dispute, the essence is completely different .. I don’t know how to respond to your comment, because it's understandable without it
                1. 0
                  15 May 2022 10: 17
                  Quote: vitvit123
                  In our discussion, the essence is completely different ..

                  I understand this, there was just the thesis that air defense would not keep up with the aircraft, I made an argument that it was enough for it to be in a certain area. And the essence of the issue, in my opinion, boils down to the fact that in this situation, in order for the air defense of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to work, a real goal is needed. But when it appears, the air defense turns on, then it should immediately be taken out by aircraft with radar missiles, and in the first echelon of the attackers, jammers should follow, and only last but not least directly attack, bomber aircraft. Maybe they do, of course, but I very much doubt the presence of battlefield jamming planes (not an elephant like Chopper) and the corresponding competence of the command. Unfortunately, I do not see any discrepancy in fact with my last conclusion.
        2. +8
          14 May 2022 08: 00
          But they, as they say, cannot give real-time information about coordinating air defense actions .. So the question is how does Ukraine's air defense receive information about targets? There is more a question for our intelligence and an even bigger question for electronic warfare

          I think this is more of a question about our connection and its security, maybe
          1. +5
            14 May 2022 08: 26
            That is, they listen to all our negotiations and know who and where is flying?
            1. +17
              14 May 2022 09: 03
              Well, that is, if you set a goal, you will find information from direct participants and knowledgeable people about the state of our communications at the site of the conflict, including.
              But in general, according to indirect signs and judging by the emerging news, the Americans have a powerful, multi-level system of intelligence and information processing. They simultaneously use information from satellites, the Internet, mobile communications, military communications, and somehow bring it all together and process it. There is no other way to explain the news, for example, that they knew about Gerasimov's arrival in Ukraine, and they knew, probably, in advance.
              In addition, they probably have reliable undercover information. Let me remind you that Biden confidently announced the start of a special operation 2 months in advance, while many of our officials and politicians, apparently, did not suspect anything until the last minute, and representatives of our Foreign Ministry until the last day giggled at stupid Americans and convinced everyone on a blue eye that America is completely crazy.
              1. +7
                15 May 2022 11: 58
                Quote: moscowp
                they have reliable intelligence information.

                There were such assumptions that the roof in the Kremlin was "leaking" from above. But besides the roof, there are also "crooked paths". And they all lead to the West: USA, UK, Israel... But the most disgusting thing is that there is no "janitor" and "repairer" to put it all in proper order. Everyone is afraid to "rock the boat".
                Damn, but if you don’t do anything, the boat is on an even keel and will sink to hell! am
          2. +11
            14 May 2022 08: 50
            In general, a lot of questions have accumulated, this military operation in Ukraine clearly showed that there are still many unresolved problems in our Armed Forces that need to be clearly identified and immediately begin to solve them, and all these capricious moods only prevent these accumulated problems from being resolved immediately.
            1. +6
              15 May 2022 12: 06
              Quote: sgrabik
              this military operation in Ukraine clearly showed that there are still many unresolved problems in our Armed Forces,

              The farther, the more clearly I have an association with the winter campaign of 1938. Only in the role of Finland today is the country-U.
              And more and more it causes fear that 1938 will be followed by 1941 ... Then, for sure - TO PARADISE !!!
            2. -1
              16 May 2022 13: 47
              You write about this to those who are on the "Star" so that they release a corresponding report, maybe it will better reach the Ministry of Defense and V. Commander, otherwise they are all about having no analogues in the world.
        3. +6
          14 May 2022 08: 22
          Regarding electronic warfare, straight to the point. For a long time I could not understand why we do not blind "partners". Can't or don't want to?
        4. +21
          14 May 2022 08: 44
          The people were convinced for a long time that the army of the Krajina was Papuans with clubs. For 8 years, the states and others have trained a certain number of specialists, equipped everything with high-tech toys ..
          The Americans have the largest satellite constellation in the world. The constellation of communication and relay satellites includes about 180 spacecraft (SC), the constellation of reconnaissance satellites - 69 SC, as well as 13 SC of the system for detecting launches of ballistic missiles and nuclear explosions. In addition to these satellites, the Pentagon attracts satellites for remote sensing of the Earth, which, having SAR on board, operate in real time in 10 spectral bands. SAR makes it possible to acquire images in all weather conditions on earth. Thus, an operational wartime US satellite constellation can count up to 500 spacecraft.
          Spacecraft continuously conduct reconnaissance, filming large areas in high resolution.
          Electronic intelligence satellites are also used, which record the operation of radio equipment in the combat zone. Both Ukrainian and Russian. The Americans receive full operational information about what is happening in Ukraine. Based on the data obtained, an interactive map of the movement of Russian troops is compiled. Further, the image received from the satellite is processed and the changes are analyzed, and various forecasts are made on the basis of this. the necessary data is transmitted to the APU video terminals. An example of the competent use of operational intelligence data and target designation is our defeat at the crossing over the Northern Donets.
          1. -1
            14 May 2022 13: 09
            But could you write the same thing in some topic about the fleet? AUGophiles would have liked it, otherwise they mriyut that the bulk of the AUG is in no way detected by modern satellite reconnaissance systems.
            1. +3
              14 May 2022 13: 26
              Dear max702! I'll try it on some topic.
            2. +4
              14 May 2022 14: 04
              Photo from KA. To my comment at 13.26.
      2. -6
        14 May 2022 10: 12
        Quote: Lykases1
        I don't quite agree with you. Why did you decide that the presence of fifth-generation aircraft would give us air supremacy? The fifth generation does not have an overwhelming advantage over the fourth. In addition, in Ukraine, it is not aviation that annoys, but air defense.

        Ukrainian passive detection means see our Su-30s and Su-35s already when they take off from the airfield and guide them, giving the command to turn on Bukams and S-300s at the best moment. And then there is the lottery - who will shoot faster. Against fifth-generation aircraft, passive radars are still powerless.
        With Su-57 squadrons, we could fly with impunity over Western Ukraine and bomb bridges across the Dnieper. So far, only cruise missiles made using 5th generation technology can do this.
        1. 0
          14 May 2022 10: 58
          Quote: ism_ek
          Having drunk fifth-generation aircraft, passive radars are still powerless

          Otkel such conclusions?
          Stealth is protection against conventional radars. And passive reconnaissance methods, such as optics and a thermal imager, cannot be deceived by this.
          Well, yes, there are methods to reduce the thermal footprint, but firstly, not to zero, and secondly, nothing like this has yet been invented in the optical range.
          1. 0
            14 May 2022 12: 19
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            passive reconnaissance methods, such as optics and a thermal imager, cannot be deceived by this.

            Read about passive radar. Ukraine got all the Soviet developments in this area and they developed them well. They are pioneers in this field.
            1. +1
              14 May 2022 12: 35
              Quote: ism_ek
              Read about passive radar

              I read it as a student, and even wrote an abstract for a scientific conference.
              Only to the detection of aircraft right on takeoff is finally no way. The same geometry as in any other location will not look beyond the horizon. Option one - stupidly raise the antenna higher, which is provided by NATO partners.
              1. -1
                14 May 2022 13: 12
                Have you heard about tropospheric reflection, tropospheric communication?
                1. +1
                  14 May 2022 13: 15
                  Quote: ism_ek
                  Have you heard about tropospheric reflection, tropospheric communication?

                  I heard. But what does passive location have to do with it? Do not confuse warm with soft.
              2. The comment was deleted.
            2. +1
              15 May 2022 12: 22
              Quote: ism_ek
              They are pioneers in this field.

              But we are already Komsomol members, Damn! Or do you think that FOTARS and the rest of optoelectronics appeared from nothing in our country too. stop
          2. 0
            15 May 2022 12: 18
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            in the optical range, nothing of the kind has yet been invented.

            No need to be so categorical! On the ground, AEROSOL camouflage is quite suitable. By the way, it also reduces the IR visibility of the object. Experiments were carried out on similar methods of covering the aircraft. The results are encouraging. But... expensive! Therefore - not always and not for everyone. And in the mass version, it’s generally prohibitive.
            Second. Work is also underway on the heat trace. There are materials (for the land, again) hiding the IR signature of the object ... The special forces seem to be already using this.
            Somehow, however. AHA.
        2. +5
          14 May 2022 11: 44
          Wait, of course I'm an amateur in this matter, but what does passive surveillance have to do with it. When you turn on the radar for the first time, any stealth will light up. Stealth does not save from visual and thermal surveillance. The danger of a cruise missile, in my opinion, is not in stealth, but in flight altitude. Well, she is still maneuvering - understand where she needs to go. Can you knock her down? Certainly. That's just it can bypass positional air defense, well, and height - when you find it, there is no time to react. In our country, in my opinion, instant 31 was the first to learn a high-quality radar, specifically for hunting for kr. To pinpoint them against the background of the earth
          1. +1
            16 May 2022 23: 49
            "The first time you turn on the radar, any stealth will light up" ///
            ---
            Of course not. Have you really decided that about such
            Didn't the stealth designers think of a "trifle"?
            The F-22 and F-35 radars have a special "pseudo-random" mode of operation. Like noise.
            He is not whipped by radar hunters.
            Stealth radar only picks up when it's working
            at full power. For example, when accompanied
            his explosive rocket.
            And so, in a reconnaissance flight, the F-35 flies easily,
            maneuvering between air defense positions, not revealing himself in anything. This puzzled the American
            Air defense workers on exercises in the United States. "It's not fair," they said. laughing
        3. 0
          14 May 2022 13: 11
          This makes no sense..
          1. -1
            14 May 2022 22: 03
            Quote: max702
            This makes no sense..

            the usual enchanting nonsense
            passive tropospheric over-the-horizon radar named after Kashpirovsky
            1. +4
              15 May 2022 10: 37
              Not really. Half a century ago, such tropospheric systems were tested, but they were not intended for taking parameters or aiming weapons, but for detecting - if there is a target in range - there is none.
      3. +2
        14 May 2022 18: 04
        Quote: Lykases1
        . Why did you decide that the presence of fifth-generation aircraft would give us air supremacy?

        The Americans, with their avaks, can spot the Su-34 from the territory of Romania for 400 kilometers. The Su-57 is much less noticeable and they definitely won’t detect it for 400 kilometers, maybe for 200 or less, this is already an advantage.
        1. +2
          14 May 2022 22: 53
          It was not quite correct to compare a fighter with a fighter-bomber, but I got the idea. Undoubtedly, stealth is better than non-stealth, but it still won’t give an overwhelming advantage. Pay attention - the USA has a lot of aircraft of the 5th (or conditionally 5th) generation, and f15-f16 are still workhorses. Here, probably, the question is more in the tactics of application. Recently I read again about NATO operations in Iraq. And in this regard, several thoughts appear - either our enemy is not the right one, or our generals are more accustomed to fighting with infantry, or we do not have certain types of weapons. Or maybe the task was set to fight that way. Something like this
          1. 0
            16 May 2022 23: 55
            "and the workhorses are still f15-f16. "///
            ---
            This is temporary. Transition period.
            Israel fully gets rid of the F-16.
            Outdated. F-35 drives.
            And the F-15 leaves only like a big bomber
            load capacity. In the absence of real bombers.
    3. +15
      14 May 2022 06: 41
      And this should not be an analogue of the American Reapers, which, thanks to the screw, are clearly visible on radars and are easy prey for air defense.

      Is this from an expert in the form of retired Major General Popov? Which Bayraktar also has a useless toy, since Konashenkov shoots down dozens of them ... only for some reason the photos of those shot down are not enough.
      Thanks to such experts, our army is experiencing a shortage of UAVs, and "air supremacy" has taught helicopters to fire NURSs along a hinged trajectory without providing direct support to troops on the battlefield.
      1. +21
        14 May 2022 07: 21
        Yes, they thought of everything there - instead of debugging equipment, pre-production batches of their improvements as a result of tests and then series, they are constantly engaged in "working out" concepts with a single copy - that is, banal sucking money. And then you need to build a series - you need to build factories, develop subcontractors, etc. And then glue one toy and drag it to various exhibitions and shows to the authorities with the promotion of new "concepts", improvements, etc. - and he himself is in business and denyuzhka drips and management is pretty...
      2. +24
        14 May 2022 08: 05
        Thanks to such experts, our army is experiencing a shortage of UAVs, and "air supremacy" has taught helicopters to fire NURSs along a hinged trajectory without providing direct support to troops on the battlefield.


        Yes, I remember very well the discussions on this site during Karabakh, where the demoniacs yelled that the bayraktars are complete garbage and if we throw rockets in a day and knock out all the airfields and launch sites and we don’t really need these drones. That's where the real fifth column is! A crowd of haters who help officials and generals cover up real problems that need to be solved.
    4. -4
      14 May 2022 07: 14
      It's all the heron's fault...
      Concept.
      TMV will be in 2050.
      We will have time to build 370 pieces of su 97 and 200 pieces of Mig317 for it.
  2. +40
    14 May 2022 04: 46
    While our UAC is throwing a lot of money down the drain to create another prodigy, our people are buying Chinese UAVs for the army for their money, without which it is impossible to fight in a modern war.
    And the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the UAC lives its own exhibition life, with its own party and tells fairy tales. And apparently nothing will change until their children and relatives are sent to war.
    1. +13
      14 May 2022 06: 04
      And now, what to say, we definitely lost the battle of technology.
      And how to catch up, in all types of weapons (or in many), is not clear.
      On YouTube, Ukrainians, Turks, Azerbaijanis howl with joy praising Bayraktar for the destruction of Russian military equipment and military personnel.

      PS I also donate to buy equipment for the DPR militias.
    2. +12
      14 May 2022 06: 40
      Remember. At VO, all ears buzzed that our drones are certainly much better than mediocre bayraktars!
      And where are they all? Why are there bayraktars over the battlefield, but there are no vaunted Orions?
      1. +7
        14 May 2022 07: 16
        There are Orion strike drones, just don't laugh too hard winked
        Under the wing of the high-precision nuclear bomb FAB-500)))
      2. -8
        14 May 2022 07: 57
        There is much more evidence of the destruction of equipment in the war zone from the Orions (which, by the way, are much smaller than the Bayraktars) than from the Bayraktars. All the latest achievements of Bayraktar are only Snake Island (and before that he worked several times as a striker at the beginning of a special operation and EVERYTHING), but there is no normal air defense on the snake island (a lone TOR, a wasp (which is useless in this case), ZSU 23 is not normal air defense), Serpentine very close to the coast (Ukrainian), Bayraktars were used en masse along with other drones. Therefore, better is not better (certainly not better), but this is not the main thing. If the Russian Federation had 200 Orions (this was an elementary task to be solved) and everything would look completely different.
    3. +4
      14 May 2022 07: 16
      Do not confuse digital money and liquids (blood).
      35 years already everything is for ... "making a profit"
      Read the statutory documents of all JSCs and PJSCs and even "production capacities"
    4. +27
      14 May 2022 07: 28
      Quote: ramzay21
      While our UAC is throwing a lot of money down the drain to create another prodigy, our people are buying Chinese UAVs for the army for their money, without which it is impossible to fight in a modern war.

      And this is a real shame of the "Russian" bureaucracy.
      Officials, they are like children - they love expensive toys and fairy tales.
      Having ditched a lot of money and time on "their own aircraft of the 5th generation", they scored for the needs of the Air Force (as part of the Aerospace Forces, of course, where would we be without astronauts) in a number of critically needed aircraft. Not only are there simply not enough trite fighters, attack aircraft and tactical bombers for such a large country, but with aircraft for other purposes, even that is hopeless!
      And in WTA.
      And with tankers, which are not enough even for Long-Range Aviation.
      And there are simply no PLO and patrol aircraft ... (the old Tu-142 and Il-38 can, at best, be retrained as patrolmen and disposable maritime reconnaissance and target designation aircraft).
      And AWACS aircraft - the A-50 fleet modernization program failed (6 modernized since 2008, this is almost nothing), and the A-100 ... there is no desire to even mention it.
      Special purpose aircraft: RTR, EW, RCU ...
      Deck helicopters ... are not produced at all! For new ships, there are simply no new PLO helicopters (they put the old ones that were in their best years ... not very) ... but they promise (and even seem to have already created) a carrier-based Ka-52, which is really needed for future UDCs, but for existing and under construction ships of the main classes need a GOOD PLO helicopter ... But it is not even being developed, meaning the hardware of such a helicopter.
      All of the above programs failed!
      And it would be okay if there had not been a war ... but it is - here it is. No.
      Who's guilty ?
      And what to do with it ?
      Understand , forgive , get more money off ?
      After all, they are now victims - the enemies have arrested their property, assets and savings ... How can they not be helped?
      After all, they are all as one - great patriots.
      Salt of the earth with indisputable ownership of power...
      They must be protected, cherished, because they lead us to a bright feudal future.

      And after all, not a single oligarch or official, for almost 3 months of the war, rushed on a personal (or official) plane to fraternal China for quadrocopters, radio stations, thermal imagers ... which the native Defense Ministry and the Genius Headquarters did not take care of.
      Soon, apparently, the fighters will also buy cartridges in order to defend their homeland ...
      Why spend on them? Did you get an automatic? Next, be smart.
      It was like this in LDNR ... but it was a militia ...

      All the children fought in the Soviet Government in the Second World War!
      And they perished.

      No, indeed, not one, even the most pro-Kremlin Rotenberg ...

      Is this really the elite?

      An aristocrat is the one who is the first to die in a war, for which he has privileges ...

      What are these for?
      1. +6
        14 May 2022 07: 52
        Deck helicopters ... are not produced at all! For new ships, there are simply no new PLO helicopters (they put the old ones, which were ... not very good in their best years) ... but they promise (and even seem to have already created) a carrier-based Ka-52,

        That's where the place is for helicopters, and in land conditions, an attack aircraft with the same characteristics in terms of speed, armament ... only cost orders of magnitude lower is enough. I don’t know how combat helicopters are used to hover in the air, only for takeoff and landing? An ordinary piston aircraft can completely replace expensive combat helicopters, which only in the movies demonstrate their mobility and ability to hover, but this is no longer used in real combat conditions. In fact, high-speed maneuverability is inherent in sports single-seat aircraft ... With the widespread use of MANPADS, combat helicopters turn into good targets, unable even to guard columns, our helicopter shot down in Karabakh showed this. And in the NMD, our helicopters show themselves very modestly, usually shots with NURS firing into the sky, in the hope that 80mm caliber missiles will hit the targets. Airplanes worth billions ... helicopters worth billions, and they practically do not influence the course of hostilities in Ukraine. According to Konashenkov's reports, usually the daily successes of aviation are limited to a few dozen pieces of equipment and a couple of hundred "fighters". And what can be done for 200-250 sorties per day? Total!!!
        1. +3
          14 May 2022 10: 41
          Quote: Konnick
          An ordinary piston aircraft can completely replace expensive combat helicopters,

          This is only in the case of counterguerrilla operations and for patrolling. In modern conditions, storming enemy orders with oversaturated MANPADS on such an aircraft is suicide, and any Zushka will take it.
          Quote: Konnick
          I don’t know how combat helicopters are used to hover in the air, only for takeoff and landing?

          And for this too. And they can also spin a funnel or a carousel as part of a link. They can sit down and pick up the crew of a downed comrade (this happened to the crew of the Ka-52 on the first day of the operation).
          We have been talking about the desirability of having a light piston attack aircraft for a long time, but due to lack of a suitable engine of our own, the topic died out.
          A helicopter is a much more flexible weapon, combat helicopters can accompany landing helicopters and provide cover for them at all stages, a piston attack aircraft cannot do this.
          Quote: Konnick
          And in the NWO, our helicopters show themselves very modestly,

          They show themselves normally, but in conditions of a large number of MANPADS, they usually strike from afar - outside the Stinger's affected area. They have an assortment of appropriate guided weapons for this. And of course NURS. It’s just that in this kind of conflict, strike UAVs are much more relevant, which are both cheaper and you don’t risk pilots.
          Quote: Konnick
          Billion dollar planes... billion dollar helicopters

          And still, 3 times cheaper than any Western counterparts.
          Quote: Konnick
          According to Konashenkov's reports, usually the daily success of aviation is limited to a few dozen pieces of equipment.

          Is it not enough? And you multiply by the number of days. Yes, and day after day is not necessary.
          Quote: Konnick
          and a couple of hundred "militants".

          This is not so, as a rule, about 300 are destroyed during the day and the same number at night. But it happens that in a day and up to 1000. And that's not counting the wounded.
          According to the Ukrainian side, now about a hundred thousand Ukrainian families have lost contact with their husbands / sons and flooded the Ministry of Defense and military registration and enlistment offices with inquiries about their fate. And these are certainly not prisoners, prisoners are always allowed to call home.
          So, if on average about 600 fighters die in the Armed Forces of Ukraine today, then together with the wounded, it will already be about 2000 servicemen who are out of action. Plus or minus. And today this is not the peak of their losses, it happened up to 3000 per day.
          And now the Armed Forces of Ukraine have announced their intention to soon put 1 soldiers under arms.
          This means that the rate of their decline will soon accelerate sharply.
          And it is unfortunate when young guys and men lose their lives and health for ... a degraded Galician terrorist and his followers - perverts and moral freaks.
          Apparently, Bandera's dream of a deserted Ukraine may soon become a reality ... through the labors and efforts of his followers.
          1. +3
            14 May 2022 15: 06
            In modern conditions, storming enemy orders with oversaturated MANPADS on such an aircraft is suicide, and any Zushka will take it.

            I will not discuss about the plane and the helicopter. Just to add, the speed of the I-153 120 is 450 km / h. For the first two years of the Second World War, Il-2 attack aircraft used along the leading edge, saturated with memory, covered by fighters. There were heavy losses of attack aircraft. In Operation Bagration, they changed the tactics of attack aircraft. They gave up the leading edge of the artillery, and sent the attack aircraft to communications and counter-battery combat. Losses decreased, efficiency increased, the supply and transfer of troops was completely blocked, and this was the strong point of the Germans. Of course, the 16-fold superiority in the air affected, many of our air formations from other fronts were transferred to Belarus. Even fighters were launched into a free hunt. Those. they repeated the German tactics of 41-42, it was with the help of the concentration of aviation at the breakthrough sites that the Germans defeated the Western and Reserve fronts, as well as the Crimean one, and organized the Kharkov catastrophe.

            But 200 sorties per day in the NVO is a shame for our aviation, we cannot even stop shelling the DPR, we cannot block the supply of equipment and ammunition, we cannot stop the transfer of parts of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
            And Konashenkov began to mention aviation a day later. There is nothing to say.
            1. +3
              14 May 2022 20: 45
              Quote: Konnick
              speed I-153 120 - 450 km/h

              Yes, a propeller-driven attack aircraft has more speed, but there are two fundamental problems in the modern Russian Federation - there are no such aircraft and engines for them, and there are no pilots even for classical aviation in due measure.
              Quote: Konnick
              But 200 sorties per day in NWO is a shame for our aviation,

              I agree, but in current situations, we can lose almost all of our aviation this way. From the first days, the aviation acted actively, which is why it suffered losses. Therefore, I had to bet on the CD ... which are not cheap and tend to end. All the old stocks of still Soviet missiles have been shot, they have already switched to using the Kh-22 with the Tu-22M3 (this one will be good exactly on bridges). You look at the payroll of our combat aviation, is this number enough? Even without taking into account losses?
              And taking into account?
              In order to switch to a mass (namely mass!) attack aircraft of this type, it is necessary to train future pilots through clubs, revive DOSAF, and, in principle, rely on the massive use of aviation, and not piece aircraft and "high-precision ammunition". If at least a couple of regiments of such attack aircraft operated in the Donbass, much would be easier.
              But in the Russian Federation there are no engines, no planes, no pilots ... there is not even a special desire.
              Quote: Konnick
              And Konashenkov began to mention aviation a day later. There is nothing to say.

              request And this cannot be changed at once.
              1. +3
                14 May 2022 20: 59
                this is not going to change

                But one might think after the war in Karabakh, where helicopters were practically not used. By the way, the engine from the I-153 and I-16 is on the An-2.
                1. +5
                  14 May 2022 22: 59
                  For such an attack aircraft, a piston or turboshaft engine with a capacity of 1000 - 1500 l / s is needed. We don't have those. And if it appears, then the turboshaft, which is being prepared for the Ka-62.
                  The Russian Federation has lost competence in piston engines. And not only aviation.
                  But if and when such an engine appears, then it is imperative to create such an attack aircraft, make it massive, use it in all types of armed forces, including the Russian Guard, the FSB, the Border Guard, to patrol the taiga and the coastline, long borders in Central Asia, use in anti-terrorist operations.
                2. -1
                  15 May 2022 10: 49
                  Your thought is correct.
                  In principle, an armored TU-2 with engines from La-11, a radar station, without side gunners, with the replacement of side guns with more modern systems, would be quite suitable as an attack aircraft.
                  Production could be deployed at existing and idle capacities.
                  1. +3
                    15 May 2022 17: 24
                    We need an analogue of the "Super-Tucano" - easy to pilot and maintain, inexpensive and massive. So that pilots could initially be trained in flying clubs. But for this to become possible, an engine is needed that will not be born in any way.
                    1. -4
                      15 May 2022 17: 26
                      Quote: bayard
                      We need an analogue of the "Super-Tucano" - easy to pilot and maintain, inexpensive and massive. So that pilots could initially be trained in flying clubs

                      Hosspeed ... well, here why is it did you need??? belay fool
                      1. +1
                        16 May 2022 11: 31
                        Quote: Repellent
                        Quote: bayard
                        We need an analogue of the "Super-Tucano" - easy to pilot and maintain, inexpensive and massive. So that pilots could initially be trained in flying clubs

                        Hosspeed ... well, here why is it did you need??? belay fool


                        Because the war has started...
                        Big and long.
                        And Ukraine will not end.
                        And you need to fight at least something.
                        And mobilization stock and renewability of production.
                        And everything connected with it.
                        The jet Su-35S costs $100 million and is assembled from parts and components from tens of thousands of suppliers.
                        Each of these suppliers is currently limited, including by sanctions.
                        And many are planning that in six months they can stop producing their products.
                        The lack of spare parts for the machine park - you know - stops the machines and, by order of the party, "get up and into the piece" - the broken machine does not know how.
                        Looking at how auto plants all over the world stand up ...
                        Likewise, thousands of suppliers. Something "failed" with one supplier, and that's all ...
                        The conveyor got up, and the rest of the thousands of suppliers got up. And it doesn’t matter what you do, plastic, rubber goods, seats, instrument panels, air conditioning or bearings and drives - you also get up after the conveyor, simply because some Bosch doesn’t have ABS chips ...

                        Everything is the same for aircraft, tanks, ships, satellites.
                      2. 0
                        16 May 2022 16: 25
                        Quote: SovAr238A
                        And you need to fight at least something

                        Yeah, super-toucan, against everyone. Don't make fun of slippers, they are already funny.

                        Quote: SovAr238A
                        many plan that in six months they can stop producing their products

                        Fortunately, the Russian economy is everything still very closed economy ... well, look out the window, you can see laughing

                        Quote: SovAr238A
                        All the same for aircraft, tanks, ships, satellites

                        The tendency to unfounded generalizations is a sign of insanity. Buddy Yes
              2. +4
                14 May 2022 21: 06
                You look at the payroll of our combat aviation, is this number enough?

                When I asked a question on the forum about the number of crews per aircraft or helicopter and why only one crew, and not 2-3, in order to increase the intensity of use. Then immediately one former accused me of not knowing everything that was possible. And he added that we don’t have extra positions ... sometimes one gets the impression that they are stretching the “pleasure” because of the large monetary allowance. The stimulation of pilots in the Great Patriotic War was more correct, piecework.
                1. +3
                  14 May 2022 21: 47
                  To stimulate pilots, you first need to have them.
                  And for this they need to be prepared not even in the required quantity, but also with a margin.
                  Quote: Konnick
                  .sometimes one gets the impression that they are stretching out the "pleasure" because of the large monetary allowance.

                  Rather, I want "with small forces and blood on enemy territory" ... And I don’t want to pay hundreds of thousands of new contract soldiers ... And because the Moscow Region simply turned out to be unprepared for mobilization. Yes, perhaps not prepared.
                  Even 3 months after the start of the operation, it did not bother to centrally purchase the required number of radio stations, quadrocopters, thermal imagers ... military personnel do this at their own expense ...
                  Maybe the Defense Ministry will soon take money from them for the opportunity to fight?
                  1. +4
                    14 May 2022 21: 57
                    Maybe the Defense Ministry will soon take money from them for the opportunity to fight?

                    An ordinary commercial organization ... here even Sladkov could not stand it and gave birth to a tirade

                    I will not say bad things, although I have a whole package of unimportant news. The only question is: where are all our forces? Do we really feel so modest in technical combat terms? Well, I shut my mouth...
                    .... But in New York (New York, DPR), we have movement through fire. A car of TNT in exchange for the life of a Russian soldier - we hit the enemy at a distance, and only then the fighters go forward.
                    It's a pity there is no aviation, things would have gone better.
                    The Armed Forces of Ukraine do not run and do not retreat. They are slowly withdrawing with heavy fighting. We often lose people. And our soldiers and officers again perform feats, and heroically go forward, instead of turning everything into routine work.
                  2. +5
                    15 May 2022 00: 05
                    Why are you surprised? Corruption, tribalism, nepotism, nepotism, protegivanie like rust corroded all the structures in our state over the past 25-30 years.
                    And the military department is no exception.
                    So wars are not won with such vices.
                    They just lose like that.
                    And much after Belogorovka reminds of the First Chechen War.
                    1. +2
                      15 May 2022 02: 28
                      There are purges in the army, there are enough weapons in storage, officers and reservists too. In the meantime, they are simply expanding the staff of units - the fourth squad in a platoon, the fourth platoon in a company, four companies in a battalion. So on the existing parts and connections, the number quietly increases by 2 times. Then it is possible and partial mobilization, when the plans are prepared.
                      Double the number of what is for the current tasks of this stage is enough.
                  3. 0
                    16 May 2022 13: 57
                    "Maybe the Defense Ministry will soon take money from them for the opportunity to fight?" do not tell them please, otherwise it will become of them.
              3. +2
                14 May 2022 21: 41
                Here is another summary from Konashenkov

                ... Operational-tactical and army aviation hit 33 areas of concentration of manpower and military equipment.

                As a result of the strikes, up to 90 nationalists were destroyed, 18 units of military equipment were disabled ...

                If you look closely at the numbers, then the concentration of manpower and equipment is 3 nationalists (tomorrow there will be militants, rotation) and half a car.
                We have some kind of virtual aviation. It seems to be, but there is no point. The Germans had such losses from one squadron in which Rechkalov fought in one sortie to attack the column at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War ... on I-153 biplanes ... 90 Germans and 18 vehicles ...
                1. +1
                  14 May 2022 22: 38
                  Now combat aircraft have become an analogue of WWI battleships - so expensive that they are scary to send into battle. And so little that to fight them with non-nuclear weapons is the same as transferring shot to an elephant. Without massing, there is not much point in attacking - artillery is cheaper and safer.
                  1. +2
                    14 May 2022 23: 13
                    The fact of the matter is that aviation should work in the rear, along communications, chase trucks and electric locomotives ... there will be no victory while the APU is being supplied, three months of trench warfare ... I won’t be surprised at the appearance of cavalry.
                    1. +1
                      15 May 2022 02: 08
                      Quote: Konnick
                      . I will not be surprised at the appearance of cavalry.

                      I don’t know how with the cavalry, but the fact that the Kremlin is going to mobilize 400-450 thousand fresh bayonets and conduct combat coordination no earlier than autumn - rumors appeared.
                      And apparently the point is not even in the fear of giving the people weapons, but in the fact that there are simply no mobilization plans, no stocks of equipment, no ready-to-use equipment for such a contingent.
                      What were you hoping for?
                      Question.
                      "You are wide, our Motherland
                      High you are the president of our father
                      It would be possible to steal a thousand years
                      But sometime comes
                      ... A new dawn."

                      The fighting is now in the places of the Makhnovists, so maybe we can get to the carts.
      2. +3
        15 May 2022 12: 47
        Quote: bayard
        An aristocrat is the one who is the first to die in a war, for which he has privileges ...

        Russian (Russian!) aristocrats considered it an honor to serve in the Army and wear a Russian military uniform... And how many of the current powers that be even SERVED in the army? And their sons are the same ... boys-majors! money burners. And what do you want from this government after that? So that they would sacrifice their well-being for the common people (not to mention the STOMACH!)? Oh well...
        Wherever they have a wallet, there is their homeland. And almost all of them have wallets in offshores or London ... They will molt there with the emerging nix.
        AHA.
    5. +4
      14 May 2022 09: 10
      Last year, they announced the launch of a new plant for the production of UAVs in the Moscow region, something is not seen or heard about its activities, it already produces at least something, or are these just plans for the future !!!
    6. +3
      14 May 2022 10: 23
      Quote: ramzay21
      While our UAC is throwing a lot of money down the drain to create another prodigy, our people are buying Chinese UAVs for the army for their money, without which it is impossible to fight in a modern war.

      Excuse me, but do you know how much has been invested in the development of DJI computers? They are so cheap because they are produced in large quantities. Electronics and optics there are Japanese and American. During the flight, the copter transmits encrypted messages that allow you to determine its approach. First, we take away cell phones from the soldiers, and then we give them copters, and then we are surprised how the Ukrainians so easily determine the position of our troops and are sad at the pictures and with dozens of pieces of destroyed equipment.
    7. 0
      14 May 2022 15: 34
      somehow I looked at the Discovery East video about the Knights and their armor .. they said an interesting thing that the concept of little vulnerability of the armor is due to the fact that the Elite class of the Middle Ages was "packed" into it (and not saving on its cost and therefore efficiency) but already from the moment the professional armies appeared (in their mass from the same people, i.e. peasant) cuirasses and other chain mail disappeared from circulation (it’s expensive for every lapotnik and armor ..) and I summarize - what could be Modern armor-protection for an infantryman, if the basis of this very infantry were the children of the Ruling class of Russia (yeah, those same children of bankers, oligarchs and other deputies of the State Duma) ... I assure you right away, there would be both night vision devices and luxury optics on AK (and not ugly AK- 12 but some kind of AK-2000) and quadrics for each (EVERY Karl) infantryman (fortunately they have some weight) and the Exo-Skeleton would no longer be an object of exhibitions, but like a MIN prototype .. and what THIS is not a mass and your native .. for him it’s worth tightening up the military-industrial complex .. well, why didn’t you have fun ???
  3. +18
    14 May 2022 04: 48
    Su-57 and S-70: combat pair or combat myth?

    Currently - a wet dream.
    *****
    The sharpness of the questions posed in today's article (and earlier) is not dulled. Sometimes I want to conduct a small analysis of the problems revealed by Roman and the reaction to "in the wake of our performances." What's the point?
    Su-57 + S-70 - this is only the visible part of the fairy tale ... The time for tactile contact with the natural (in size and characteristics) flight model of this miracle presented in the mock-up - Su-75 is approaching. And there, the time for the production of the pilot batch (2026) and deliveries (2027) is just around the corner. Just think, some five years ...
    I remember that military parade in 2015, when the tracks of the "Armata" and "Kurganets" touched the cobblestones of Red Square. And it's only been seven years. And we are again surprised at the presence of l / s on the armor of old samples of Soviet armored vehicles. And absolutely in vain. Surely there are weighty justifications for this carried and carried along different corridors ...
    Here you personally, dear users, I wonder why this is happening?
    So today it becomes completely clear to me how liberal speculation is not able to organize EVEN a semblance of modern production. The pursuit of profit, which even in this difficult time for the country has accumulated more than 1 trillion. rubles - the main goal of those officials who continue to believe and hope for a "return to Eden" or some other very warm area.
    And Roman continues to "please" us with his experiences. And it is right. Not to relax...
    hi
    1. +4
      14 May 2022 07: 18
      Quote: ROSS 42
      even in this difficult time for the country, more than 1 trillion has accumulated. rubles,

      2.7 trillion.. hi
    2. -10
      14 May 2022 07: 36
      Quote: ROSS 42
      warm area.
      And Roman continues to "please" us with his experiences.

      Romek is a well-known expert on all issues and an all-weather.
    3. -2
      14 May 2022 10: 26
      Quote: ROSS 42
      I remember that military parade in 2015, when the tracks of the "Armata" and "Kurganets" touched the cobblestones of Red Square.

      Until 2014, the Serdyukovskaya Defense Ministry considered tanks and infantry fighting vehicles to be useless players. Their improvement was carried out only at the expense of foreign contracts.
  4. KCA
    +3
    14 May 2022 05: 48
    It seems that it is now 2022, the author forgets about the rapid development of AI, I understand, of course, that the B-52 has a larger crew than the SU-57, but how much should it be if they are going to control HUNDREDS of Gremlins, and not 4 drones
    1. +5
      14 May 2022 07: 38
      AI - is it when the operator controls or enumerates possible options? That's great to anticipate a possible option. A set of words like AI is used by specialists far from the concept of "digital field".
      1. KCA
        +8
        14 May 2022 08: 32
        It’s just a fashionable word and understandable to everyone, in fact, it’s called in other words - a self-learning neural network, Uranus and other robotic drones are already being tested on the field, they easily follow a given program without the participation of an operator, reach the target, until, however, for ethical reasons, they don’t fire without the participation of the operator, and in the sky the “Granites” were still flying in a flock, they themselves determined the priority target according to the given templates and exchanged information, if the leader failed, it was replaced by a missile that sees targets in the best possible way, and after all, the P-700 in service since 1983, and development in general in the 70s, and now 40 years later 4 drones will not be able to fly in a flock?
  5. +9
    14 May 2022 05: 57
    What are you talking about? Pilots organize collections of money for walkie-talkies and normal unloading, because they are given garbage from the 80s!
    1. +10
      14 May 2022 09: 29
      You forgot about navigators! laughing
  6. +7
    14 May 2022 06: 08
    Drones, of course, are needed in modern combat conditions. But, it seems to me, if the "aircraft + UAV" pair works, then the UAV should be controlled not by the operator or pilot, but by automation. From the aircraft leader. The pilot may be distracted by confirming the target for the UAV, or canceling, no more. Neither during air combat, nor during training on ground targets, does the pilot have time to keep track of the UAV. They fly in pairs, the UAV is in front, the plane is behind it. The UAV found the target, the pilot received the information, and simply gave the order to attack. Everything. Then the drone has to do everything itself. Attacked, destroyed, took up his position again.
    1. -2
      14 May 2022 11: 16
      Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
      They fly in pairs, the UAV is ahead, the plane is behind it. The UAV found the target, the pilot received the information, and simply gave the order to attack. Everything. Then the drone has to do everything itself.

      The question is, what is the plane in this bunch?
      1. +1
        14 May 2022 14: 03
        That is, do you propose to send one UAV, which has much less BC compared to an airplane? Hmm ... If you think like that, then why do fighters fly in pairs? Why even fight, say, with tank units supported by motorized infantry, if you can just fire a volley of MLRS and do nothing else? I don't understand your logic.
        1. +1
          14 May 2022 14: 21
          Quote: Grandfather is an amateur
          do you propose sending one UAV, which has much less BC compared to an airplane?

          If the drone can do everything on its own, then the plane didn’t give up on it. And if there is not enough ammunition, well, let's go 2 drones, 3 drones, but at least a hundred ....
          If you think like that, then why do fighters fly in pairs?
          one head is good, but two is always better. One pilot is fighting, the other is watching, covering.
          To the size of the ammunition load, this is no side.
          Why fight at all, say, with tank units supported by motorized infantry, if you can just fire a volley of MLRS

          Yes, how blah ....
          If you read the reports from the fields, then this is exactly what ours are trying to do now.
          First, the artillery mixes everything into dust, and only then the infantry advances to the vacated positions.
          1. 0
            14 May 2022 18: 54
            The drone does not yet know much, it can execute the program embedded in it, but the UAV does not have a full-fledged AI capable of thinking. Actually, a full-fledged AI in general does not yet exist in nature.
          2. +4
            15 May 2022 13: 42
            Quote: Jacket in stock
            First, the artillery mixes everything into dust, and only then the infantry advances to the vacated positions.

            And it is right! Or does the 41st year not give you peace of mind? When did our infantry with the XNUMXrd line rush to the German tanks? And the Germans unloaded a car of shells at one machine-gun point until they plowed everything into an attack.
            Maybe it's time to learn how to fight MBT, with a barrage of fire, and not with "infantry on the offensive." am
      2. +1
        14 May 2022 15: 20
        The question is, what is the plane in this bunch?

        Carry a pilot with a loud voice who will shout Attack drinks
  7. +5
    14 May 2022 06: 15
    Stories about the future successes of our industrialists in the production of UAVs sound unreliable now. In the same way, stories about future super-duper aircraft sound unreliable. Here I would read missiles, we know how to make good missiles, and planes seem to be able to fly only in good weather and if the enemy does not have normal air defense systems, like in Syria
  8. +10
    14 May 2022 06: 20
    In the troops of the T-90 in single copies. There is generally silence about the "armats" and "Kurgans" (they exist only for the parade). And here is a bunch of more expensive to manufacture aircraft. Let's not wait, it will remain theoretically possible. Especially during the sanctions war.
  9. +15
    14 May 2022 06: 39
    Project Hunter is a mistake. The idea with the AL-41F-1S jet engine will not let him stay in the air for any long time. The same idiotic and populist idea to control it from the Su-57. This is a single-seat machine, and the pilot must concentrate on piloting the aircraft and fulfilling his mission, and not control an additional aircraft, its weapons, hitting targets. Here's some bullshit. I would understand more if they tried to include something similar in the future Su-30SM2 ...

    We need our Reaper. The war in Syria did not teach our Ministry of Defense anything, the war in Karabakh did not teach us anything, the war in Ukraine is the quintessence of the wretchedness of our military thought, the weakness of the generals, the weakness of our industry, for which any project is from 20 years and above the deadline.
    So where are the engines on the Su-57? In development since the early 2000s, the first flight is 2017, 2022 - not in the series, the preliminary date for the start of mass production is 2027. And so it is everywhere. Everywhere.
    Therefore, we are fighting on the T-72, building corvettes 20380 and other boats. And at the Parade - yes, everything is beautiful.
    1. +2
      14 May 2022 11: 57
      Quote: FRoman1984
      Project Hunter is a mistake. The idea with the AL-41F-1S jet engine will not let him stay in the air for any long time.

      As an attack drone - quite. The programmed CAB was loaded into it, it took off, flew to the desired point, dropped the bomb, flew back, sat down.

      Quote: FRoman1984
      The same idiotic and populist idea to control it from the Su-57.

      It depends on what is invested in the concept of management. If a radar is installed on the Okhotnik, he may well independently detect air targets and transmit information to the Su-57. The pilot will only have to give the go-ahead to launch the rocket. It is not necessary to fly a drone in the literal sense. It is enough to give him short commands like "Fly forward", "Follow me", "Activate radar", etc.

      In general, it is quite a promising development option. The only question is where is it. After all, this is already realizable, everything is there for this.
  10. +5
    14 May 2022 06: 41
    In general, of course, this is more than strange. A second person is put in a fighter-bomber or attack aircraft, since it is difficult for one to pilot and use weapons, and then the load on one is doubled .... Something does not fit. Apparently, either lies or peeling ... Or both at once.
    And I simply will not consider the version about some kind of artificial intelligence.
  11. +5
    14 May 2022 07: 10
    Controlling drones from a single-seat fighter is nonsense. Management of several more is super delusional. If you use the S-70, then only in conjunction with the Su-34. The S-70 should be sharpened for the destruction of radar and air defense, only then does it make any sense.
    1. 0
      14 May 2022 08: 20
      Not nonsense. AI works there, the pilot does not need to constantly track ,, Hunter ,,. Plus, none of us amateurs knows for what real combat missions this bundle is required.
      1. +7
        14 May 2022 09: 14
        The author of the article writes about the control of the S-70 as a quadrocopter, therefore
        avia12005 and writes that this is nonsense and writes correctly. Up to 57 is far away, but 34 both fly and have a reserve of modernization in this direction.
      2. -2
        14 May 2022 11: 25
        Quote from blade3
        AI works there, the pilot does not need to constantly track the "Hunter",

        Why then this link at all?
        Isn't it easier to control this drone from the ground.
        The only plausible explanation is that we do not have long-range radio communications, and the plane is needed as a repeater.
      3. +1
        16 May 2022 11: 38
        Quote from blade3
        Not nonsense. AI works there, the pilot does not need to constantly track ,, Hunter ,,. Plus, none of us amateurs knows for what real combat missions this bundle is required.


        There are no AIs.
  12. +1
    14 May 2022 07: 11
    Drone, the very name of the technique says that the flight without a pilot. And if without a pilot, then for now it must be controlled by the UAV operator.
  13. +5
    14 May 2022 07: 15
    Clearing the way for air defense means using enemy radars, which the Su-57 will detect and launch missiles at them. For example.
    Expensive. Because you substitute dear Device. But it is effective at the stage of destroying air defense facilities in the depths of enemy territory. In theory.
  14. +4
    14 May 2022 08: 01
    Further experiments will show. So far, the S-70 can only be considered as a flying additional magazine with rockets and bombs, which can be activated while maintaining the aircraft's ammunition load.

    It all depends on the equipment of the Su-57. If he has a sufficiently advanced AI, then the pilot himself will not have to control the S-70. The advantage of the S-70 over the Su-57 is its greater invisibility (scheme, flat nozzle) and, accordingly, it is more expedient to use it where there is a high risk of being attacked.
  15. -3
    14 May 2022 08: 14
    When they are fully brought to mind, it will be the most advanced military weapon ever created by man in the world of Combat Aviation.
  16. -2
    14 May 2022 08: 17
    The author could not resist the cheap irony about the air part of the Victory Day parade, but does he know the true reason for its cancellation? Do not spoil your authority, author.
    1. +2
      14 May 2022 09: 14
      And what is the real reason? I really thought because of the weather, I drove up to Moscow at that time, there was a squally wind, in some places it was raining
  17. +5
    14 May 2022 08: 19
    As always - bitingly, provocatively, loudly. Only it would be nice for the author to understand how the UAV differs from the UAV. And the fact that the S-70 is precisely a UAV, i.e. _unmanned_ aircraft. So the pilot on the Su-57 does not need to steer them at all, like a quadrocopter in the author's example, the control is automatic.
    1. -2
      14 May 2022 11: 27
      Quote: Adieu
      the pilot on the Su-57 does not need to steer them at all, like a quadrocopter in the author's example, the control is automatic.

      And why then in this bundle at all Su57?
      1. 0
        15 May 2022 13: 54
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        And why then in this bundle at all Su57?

        situational awareness. To make INSTANT decisions, sometimes even based on INTUITION (experience + skill + foresight of future events). Yes
  18. +5
    14 May 2022 08: 25
    The respected author - not being a full-time employee of the "institutions" involved in the development of the Russian Aerospace Forces - calls "experts" the same as he is.
    The only sound judgment in his long article: "So is there any prospect for the Su-57 - S-70 bundle? Further experiments will show."
    Here we wait. Just because I'm an aeronautical mechanical engineer by training doesn't make me an expert in all aspects of aviation. Quite the contrary: being a specialist, I respect other specialists. Have a good weekend everyone.
    1. +1
      15 May 2022 14: 31
      Quote: Sibguest
      The only sound judgment in his long article: "So is there any prospect for the Su-57 - S-70 bunch"

      And he himself does not really want to consider this prospect, judging by the photos given in the article. He did not even bother to show the S-70 with a flat nozzle (December 2021)

      And the second question: why the author did not bother to mention the artificial intelligence of the "Hunter", but fell into arguments about how difficult it would be for a pilot to simultaneously control the S-70 and pilot the SU-57 ...
      And the fact that the AI ​​replaces the pilot on the S-70 --- not a word! As well as about the machine exchange between the sides along the VZOI line ...
      But he sowed doubts among the public and hefty ones, I must say. In this he is an unsurpassed master! bully
      1. +2
        16 May 2022 11: 47
        Quote: BoA KAA
        Quote: Sibguest
        The only sound judgment in his long article: "So is there any prospect for the Su-57 - S-70 bunch"

        And he himself does not really want to consider this prospect, judging by the photos given in the article. He did not even bother to show the S-70 with a flat nozzle (December 2021)

        And the second question: why the author did not bother to mention the artificial intelligence of the "Hunter", but fell into arguments about how difficult it would be for a pilot to simultaneously control the S-70 and pilot the SU-57 ...
        And the fact that the AI ​​replaces the pilot on the S-70 --- not a word! As well as about the machine exchange between the sides along the VZOI line ...
        But he sowed doubts among the public and hefty ones, I must say. In this he is an unsurpassed master! bully


        First of all.
        There is no AI...
        There is not and cannot be.

        Secondly.
        It is possible to use expert systems.
        But.
        To accumulate an array of data, which will later be used to work out joint interaction, decades of operation of these devices are needed.
        Testing the system of swarms - for testing the system of automatic mutual movement in the air, information exchange, distributed computing by network forces ...
        Testing of flight tasks by UAV forces - first under the guidance of operators, then introducing standard solutions into the algorithms of the UAV's self-governing systems, then further and more.
        All this takes at least 30 years.
        This is all programming, communications, high-power computers, signal processors.
        It's all IT structure!!!!
        Which we do not have, and all geniuses and all those who know, and about those who know - always go abroad.
        He will only go with such brains to work at the Research Institute of the Ministry of Taxes and Taxes for 40 thousand rubles.

        Aviation structure - there is no need at all!
        It is in the form of S-70, Su-57 - it’s not even a matter of the second or third dependence, but of the fifth level !!!

        Everyone needs a brain.
        Reality understanding.
        And in the ingenious headquarters, and in the design bureau - this is not from the word at all!

        And yes.
        "Joint" flight - this was the flight of the S-70 with the control of the operator from the ground.
        And the su-57 accompanied him.
        And not vice versa.
        Look at all sorts of videos more closely.
        There is nothing there from what you wrote.
        1. 0
          16 May 2022 18: 36
          Quote: SovAr238A
          There is no AI...
          There is not and cannot be.

          Maybe there is no IUS either?
          Quote: SovAr238A
          All this takes at least 30 years.
          The program started in 2007. But before that it was a good start. It is being developed now.
          Everyone needs a brain.
          It's hard to argue with that. But it is also impossible to agree with your statement that all our kulibins and child prodigies are sleeping and seeing how to quickly slip over the hill. The 90s are over. Many stay and work for the good of the country, and for a decent salary and grants from the Government and the President of the Russian Federation.
          So, it’s too early to panic and give up, and it’s not in our tradition.
  19. +1
    14 May 2022 08: 43
    Interestingly, the posted photo of the C-70 at the airfield was reportedly from Baltimore, not far from the war zone. Possibly limited testing in combat conditions right now.
  20. +5
    14 May 2022 09: 14
    Well, why this nonsense? To control does not mean to drive drones, as in a computer game. It is enough to introduce programs and tasks into drones, and the aircraft is needed only for control and safety net, in the end, control can be voice. But seriously, why talk about what you do not know?
    1. 0
      16 May 2022 11: 49
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      Well, why this nonsense? To control does not mean to drive drones, as in a computer game. It is enough to introduce programs and tasks into drones, and the aircraft is needed only for control and safety net, in the end, control can be voice. But seriously, why talk about what you do not know?


      Exactly like in a computer game.
      For 15 years this has been going on all over the world, except for us.
      Exactly!
      1. 0
        16 May 2022 13: 16
        What's going on all over the world? 5th generation? And do we need it? An expensive, useless toy and a waste of money, which is what the USA is so famous for. There is a nuclear weapon that is for a war with a strong enemy, which actually has a 5th generation, there is an air defense system that will complete the task of preventing enemy aircraft from working in its area of ​​​​operation, and there are 4 ++ aircraft, which are enough for the eyes in any local war.
        1. -2
          16 May 2022 13: 43
          Quote: Victor Sergeev
          What's going on all over the world? 5th generation? And do we need it? An expensive, useless toy and a waste of money, which is what the USA is so famous for. There is a nuclear weapon that is for a war with a strong enemy, which actually has a 5th generation, there is an air defense system that will complete the task of preventing enemy aircraft from working in its area of ​​​​operation, and there are 4 ++ aircraft, which are enough for the eyes in any local war.

          Again twenty-five ...
          If we can’t do something, just say out loud that we don’t need it!
          This is national Russian.
          I've heard this since I was born.
          There is even a purely Russian expression: “Yes, it doesn’t hurt, and I wanted to!” ...

          And all over the world there is a 6 technological order.
          in military terms, what is called network-centricity and its components: satellite communication systems with tens of thousands of satellites, missile return stages, modular serial production, the use of civilian components in military equipment, access to military production of civilian companies through the ideas of DARPA competitions and other similar programs, swarm systems, drones, expert systems, distributed networks - all this is being introduced into the big picture.
          Not understanding and not having a huge and long experience in expert systems - not a single developer will be able to create a machine system Adekbander's decision-making muzzle. Never. Therefore, you can forget about Expert Systems, which are considered AI in our urya-publications, once and for all. If you have a hammer, but no hands and eyes, the hammer is useless to you.
          and so on in everything.
          1. +2
            17 May 2022 03: 13
            And how many of these 4+ generation aircraft do we have? Well, three hundred at most. And there will be no more without imported electronic components, sealants, compounds, resins, nibbles, varnishes and enamels.
            And consumables for machine tools. I know on what equipment KnaaZ, NAPO and Irkut assemble them.
            Oh yes, already 10-12% of the number that was lost in Ukraine. The day before, another Su-30SM was shot down near Nikolaev.
            And it's very scary. What's hit? Buk who is 40 years old!

            What will happen when Ukraine receives modern Norwegian, German, British and American medium-range air defense systems?
            And the F-16 fighters, of which there are a lot in storage only in Europe. There are more than half a thousand Eurofighters in NATO countries - this is more than all the fighters of the Russian Aerospace Forces.
  21. DO
    +1
    14 May 2022 09: 15
    The S-70 stealth strike UAV, as I understand it, was conceived primarily for attacking enemy air defenses with anti-radar missiles, and missile attacks on sea targets. Target designation for the S-70 is possible both before takeoff and in flight (from anywhere - from the ground, from a two-seat fighter).
    And to implement this concept, first of all, mass production of the S-70 is needed.
    ==
    As for a bunch of several strike UAVs with the operator-co-pilot of the control fighter.
    Today, on a daily basis, one can really talk about strike UAVs, which are used as old aircraft, which are close to retirement and modernized in terms of wear and tear, with installed onboard AI - Su-27, MiG-25 (primarily to combat enemy aircraft), Su- 24, Su-25 (to work on ground targets). To give target designation to strike UAVs for a missile attack of enemy aircraft, it is advisable from two-seat Su-30, MiG-35. Target designation when working on the ground with bombs and missiles - from two-seat Su-34s armored against Shilka.
    For appropriate conditions, for work on the ground, it may be appropriate to link an old attack helicopter armed with NURS, upgraded into an UAV, and an advanced manned helicopter for control.
    Of course, the enemy will shoot down attack UAVs no less than manned aircraft (helicopters). But a pilot is more expensive than an airplane, in every sense.
    1. -1
      14 May 2022 11: 31
      Quote: DO
      The S-70 stealth strike UAV, as I understand it, was conceived primarily for attacking enemy air defenses with anti-radar missiles, and missile attacks on sea targets. Target designation for the S-70 is possible both before takeoff and in flight (from anywhere - from the ground, from a two-seat fighter).
      And to implement this concept, first of all, mass production of the S-70 is needed.
      ==
      As for a bunch of several strike UAVs with the operator-co-pilot of the control fighter.
      Today, on a daily basis, one can really talk about strike UAVs, which are used as old aircraft, which are close to retirement and modernized in terms of wear and tear, with installed onboard AI - Su-27, MiG-25 (primarily to combat enemy aircraft), Su- 24, Su-25 (to work on ground targets). To give target designation to strike UAVs for a missile attack of enemy aircraft, it is advisable from two-seat Su-30, MiG-35. Target designation when working on the ground with bombs and missiles - from two-seat Su-34s armored against Shilka.
      For appropriate conditions, for work on the ground, it may be appropriate to link an old attack helicopter armed with NURS, upgraded into an UAV, and an advanced manned helicopter for control.
      Of course, the enemy will shoot down attack UAVs no less than manned aircraft (helicopters). But a pilot is more expensive than an airplane, in every sense.

      In all your schemes there is a common incomprehensible element - why should an UAV operator be put on an airplane / helicopter? It will be easier for him to steer from the ground.
      1. DO
        +1
        14 May 2022 13: 22
        In all your schemes there is a common incomprehensible element - why should an UAV operator be put on an airplane / helicopter? It will be easier for him to steer from the ground.

        If the ground target is motionless, its coordinates are known, and besides, our small-sized UAV-gunner hangs above the target, then, of course, target designation can be done even at the airfield, and send the required number of strike unmanned bombers or attack aircraft to perform a combat mission, without manned escort .
        If the target is enemy aircraft, ground communication channels are jammed, or the enemy has the means to detect and destroy advanced ground control points, there is no escape from manned escort, preferably having communication with the AWACS aircraft.
        In general, you are right, the need for manned escort is determined by the specific situation.
      2. -1
        16 May 2022 11: 57
        Quote: Jacket in stock

        In all your schemes there is a common incomprehensible element - why should an UAV operator be put on an airplane / helicopter? It will be easier for him to steer from the ground.


        You are not aware of one.
        We do not have a developed constellation of communications satellites.
        In order to quickly and reliably transmit packets for at least 500 km, satellites are already needed.
        But they are not.
        Development, production, launches - will spend about 20 years and tens of trillions.

        Which is basically what the Americans have been doing for the last 30 years.
        Developed satellite communication systems.
        They always have operators in Illinois.
        It doesn't matter where the Reaper or the Global Hawk is, in Italy, Bahrain, Diego Garcia, Guam.
        Operators within the USA.

        And we are sorry to spend so much money.
        For a long time.
        Kickbacks will go into instrumentation and space.
        And they can't be shared.
        Therefore, they come up with crutches in the form of co-pilots, who can allegedly control the UAV via conventional radio communications. At close range.
        Another cut and betrayal of the country.
        with total zero military effect.
        1. DO
          0
          16 May 2022 19: 03
          In order to quickly and reliably transmit packets for at least 500 km, satellites are already needed.

          Yes, in the particular case of the Ukrainian special operation, this is true.
          But satellite communications are militarily vulnerable. And in a more serious conflict with a technological enemy, satellite communication channels can be jammed, satellites can be destroyed. And with the appropriate degree of military escalation, the satellites will be attacked first.
          they come up with crutches in the form of co-pilots, who can allegedly control the UAV via conventional radio communications. At close range.
          Another cut and betrayal of the country.
          with total zero military effect.

          Here you "throw the baby out of the tub with the water." How else, in the conditions of possible suppression and / or destruction by the enemy of our advanced ground radio control points, and in an extremely rapidly changing environment, how to quickly control attack UAVs, interacting with the AWACS aircraft? How to quickly insure, for example, the result of long-range / medium-range air combat of our future strike drones with enemy fighters / bombers? After all, directed communication channels between aircraft are more difficult to jam / destroy than front-line ground radio communication channels.
  22. +7
    14 May 2022 09: 24
    The author of the article does not understand one thing: with existing AI technologies, the aircraft does not have to be controlled very much at all. It can take off, and fly along the route, and even land on autopilot. And the pilot sitting in the cockpit of the Su-57 will only need to distribute targets between controlled drones using a special interface. True, only the United States has all this at once, but these are the realities of tomorrow.
  23. +5
    14 May 2022 09: 34
    The parade did not take place due to "weather reasons", although the Muscovites will not let you lie, the weather was perfect.

    Maybe you don’t know, but during the Immortal Regiment in Moscow there were strong winds and rain and even snow.
    1. +1
      14 May 2022 12: 29
      Yes, but only a few hours after the parade. I was also surprised that the air part was canceled. Poti over all of Moscow was sunny, only on the horizon on the side of the southeast a cloudy front was gathering. Rain and snow either started about an hour after the parade ended. At the same time, during rehearsals, planes flew over my area and the weather was worse than it was on May 9th.
      1. +6
        14 May 2022 13: 09
        I was also surprised that the air part was canceled
        It is possible that there was information about a "Muscovite" with Ukrainian roots and an English MANPADS.
  24. 0
    14 May 2022 10: 25
    Theoretically, all Wishlist can be done, but everything rests not even on the control computer, but on algorithms for artificial intelligence that will steer. And this is still a problem. And not only in Russia. Ideally, this should be intelligence like a fantastic "loner" module. I'm afraid in the next 30 years this is unattainable.
  25. 0
    14 May 2022 10: 47
    IMHO, how naive.

    This earlier UAVs were controlled manually.
    Now the intellect has already increased that the BLLA flies by itself, and can shoot itself (they wrote that the Jews had already eliminated someone there)

    4-5 pieces of UAVs are a swarm, especially since it’s not comme il faut to control each individually
    set a strategy, direction, possible goals and ... that's it, fly yourself.
    There would be money and power to build

    In games, this has been implemented for 20 years. (True, the units there are usually stupid). But here, it's not just one game on a cheap computer that controls 400 units, but a UAV worth several million bucks...

    Scouted, distributed goals, strategy, everything, fly ...
  26. -4
    14 May 2022 10: 49
    Another slow pseudo-analytics with bots. Order.
    The Banshee (the author's nickname) has only one idea: to howl and whine, to create the appropriate impression.
  27. +1
    14 May 2022 11: 33
    All this experimentation is, in general, normal practice, so in the 30s of the last century they experimented with aircraft carriers, the Japanese experimented with submarine aircraft carriers, pre-war states tried to implement multi-turreted tanks, and so on. These searches did not necessarily lead somewhere in a constructive way, but in general it is like any R&D - the risk and costs are often paid off by a successful hit.
    The problem with this combination of Su-57 and Okhotnik, as I see it in its most acute part, is the price problem. We have a limited military budget, and a special operation will pile on even more routine expenses. Our economy has not become larger, our access to foreign components has not become better - that is, at least a number of funds and a lot of time will be spent on "import substitution" of what is needed (I do not believe in 100% localization at the moment). For the current times, the Su-57, and even more so the cost and complexity of the UAV, is a clear fat, which may affect plans in the foreseeable future. As a result of the special operation, the very requirements for equipment in modern warfare may change, including for UAVs and aviation, which also will not speed up the creation "in metal".
  28. 0
    14 May 2022 11: 33
    I didn’t understand why the government finances these prodigies? Instead of increasing the production of promising aircraft to at least 50 pieces per year, they spend billions for the sake of a "wingman" for an aircraft that is not really in service. I don't mean "let's rivet the MiG-17 in batches", but wars are not won by a few expensive super-aircraft.
  29. +1
    14 May 2022 12: 30
    Su-57 is still awesomely beautiful!
  30. +5
    14 May 2022 12: 43
    she showed her - the whole military is a myth ...
    1. 0
      15 May 2022 14: 42
      Quote: Sedoy
      she showed her - the whole military is a myth ...

      And it seems to me that your post is sheer nonsense! negative
      1. 0
        15 May 2022 19: 23
        it's your problem...
    2. -3
      15 May 2022 15: 59
      Why is it all. Apparently, the calibers fly and hit something there. The stars in the sky came together in the right combination, brought to mind the Soviet design developments and made it look like something worthwhile, and not just mastered the budgets.
      1. +3
        15 May 2022 19: 41
        eats, but not all.. :)
        there is much more from the union
        but you won’t win the war with calibers - the same bridge with three calibers spent on it is expensive, which is restored in 5 days (Odessa) and was not damaged at all, although they hit a support (Dnepropetrovsk) ...
        bomber aviators say that the bridge is a very difficult target, destroying it with missiles is a miracle, you need to bomb there "heavy" and hit it successfully more than once ...
        or they brag that they filled up the launcher s300 with an iskander
        there are up to 6 such launchers (in the system) and one CP, so this is nothing at all, so if the CP were filled up, one could talk ...
        Americans in Iraq fired all air defense missiles on the ground ...
        cheap and cheerful - some caused the radar to work on themselves, and as soon as it turned on, the second worked on it, it didn’t even reach the guidance and transmission of the launch command ...
        and we were told two months ago that there was complete air superiority, but it turned out that it wasn’t ...
        that's why art works mostly...
        50 sorties a day is not a job for aviation ...
        again, the Americans in Iraq made more than 1000 sorties on the very first day - this is work ...
        in addition to iron, in the military commissar, our generals are still a myth ...
        about the crossing, the whole Internet comes with boiling water ...
        for some reason, the herald didn’t say a word from me that they say it’s a fake ...
        see the same as about the cruiser ...
  31. +1
    14 May 2022 13: 43
    Did the author scribble lines by the light of a torch in a dugout? You haven't heard of AI, have you? The only true thought is about the lack of funds for the mass production of advanced weapons.
  32. +2
    14 May 2022 14: 21
    The author is right only in the situation if the s-70 is a remotely controlled vehicle and the entire piloting burden falls on the operator / pilot. If it is a full-fledged UAV that only needs to set / control the execution of tasks, then one operator may well control a group of devices.
  33. +1
    14 May 2022 14: 38
    His 57 and Okhotnik are two great achievements of the Russian arms industry.
  34. +2
    14 May 2022 15: 15
    But Peskov said that the weather is bad, which means that it is so.

    To be honest, I didn't watch the parade. I just scrolled to the end of the passage of equipment, then the planes go.
    So when the camera looks at the historical museum, the sky is clear, and when towards St. Basil's Cathedral, then there are solid clouds.

    [center] [/ center]
    1. 0
      16 May 2022 21: 02
      I didn’t see it myself, but according to the reviews of a friend from SZAO, the weather was so lousy that I didn’t go to the parade at all, it was even uncomfortable to stand.
  35. +3
    14 May 2022 15: 18
    Read at the beginning of the article
    although Muscovites will not let you lie, the weather was perfect
    and then there is no desire to get a grasp. Muscovites, to whom I include myself, in the Moscow region in some places recorded rain, hail, and strong wind, in some places even sleet. And I saw it myself and my friends threw it off .. Just before dinner !! And the fact that it was dispersed over the square does not play a special role for aviation, in which the collection and flight radius was throughout the region .. Something like that !!
    1. +3
      14 May 2022 22: 46
      And what impulses were! The carriages at the MCC rocked
  36. +1
    14 May 2022 16: 17
    It is difficult to analyze, since the concept of a fighter-drone link is completely incomprehensible. Generally speaking, "drone" is a loose concept. This word refers to both an absolutely apparatus that is remotely controlled by an operator, and an autonomous robot that is controlled by artificial intelligence. In many ways, it can be assumed that the Russian drone is not very highly intelligent, therefore, it needs human piloting via remote control. And if so, then his task is to carry an additional combat load and cover his leader from enemy attacks. In principle, it’s also not bad, but the question arises of justifying its price. Wouldn't it be easier to make several full-fledged fighters and seat the pilots in their own cockpits, instead of trying to solve the same problem in a more complicated way?

    On the other hand, a heavy class combat drone is definitely needed. It is possible that the current version is the forerunner of the future autonomous flying robot. In this case, it justifies itself. But with regard to artificial intelligence, one will have to strain a lot, since there is no domestic electronic base for it and is not expected in the near future. You can only rely on the art of domestic programmers who are able to implement the most complex algorithms on primitive computing resources. Personally, I believe in this, because I am familiar with such examples firsthand.
  37. -2
    14 May 2022 18: 51
    Quote: Konnick
    The question is, what is the plane in this bunch?

    Carry a pilot with a loud voice who will shout Attack drinks

    Good choice, applaud! good
  38. +3
    14 May 2022 18: 58
    Combat "shnyaga" it is! What is the use of the army and the country from the weapons that are not in the army itself, with which it cannot fight? For exhibitions!? Government PR? To increase the rating of the Kremlin? The army is fighting the old fashioned way - Su-25 at the peak of NURSs! Attack UAVs are piece, the same one was shown a couple of times, the one in Syrian coloring. The army is begging for drones with a camera from the population through volunteers! Instead of a pancake of one nauseating useless UAV of the Hunter for billions, it would be better if they bought Quadcopters with a comer for the troops, thermal imagers, nightlights! No words, just curses! Sick of the leading heads in the Moscow Region and the government!
  39. 0
    14 May 2022 21: 58
    There will be no sense in this cut of the budget! Effective gaskets will not give! They also want palaces and yachts!
  40. +2
    14 May 2022 22: 45
    The weather was disgusting, I was cold and wet on Poklonnaya
  41. The comment was deleted.
  42. +1
    15 May 2022 00: 15
    Quote: Author
    ...in an incomprehensible way, also to pilot your own plane.
    Brad.

    Brad.
    But against the background of the delirium of analysts-journalists about "artificial intelligence", everything settles down, especially if Fedya's robot is the same intelligence and "a weapon based on new physical principles" in one bottle.
    Sarcasm of humor, if anything, do not throw slippers at the pianist.
    1. +1
      15 May 2022 08: 20
      You are just like from that Maidan brethren who considered the latest hypersonic weapons of Russia to be cartoons, and as a result, some of them died from it
      1. 0
        16 May 2022 12: 04
        Quote from blade2
        You are just like from that Maidan brethren who considered the latest hypersonic weapons of Russia to be cartoons, and as a result, some of them died from it


        One hypersonic missile was fired and all "Urya, Urya! Have we defeated everyone?"
        And the fact that almost 2000 other missiles were fired that are not hypersonic - nothing?
        The workhorses of the war - it turns out not to be hypersound.
        And no one was afraid of this "unparalleled in the world" Dagger.
        Well, no one here.

        Complete zero efficiency in a big war.
        So, one-time to scare a Papuan - with his only warehouse or bomb shelter.
        And in the war, even against Ukraine, this is shameful bullshit, this Dagger.
        1. +1
          16 May 2022 21: 07
          You go too far, there is nothing shameful, but this tool is too expensive and small-scale, and does not have anti-bunker properties. The Iskanders, which the Armenians still doubted, are incomprehensible. The monoblock is too inaccurate and the S-300 is most likely knocked down. The cassette "head", as it turned out, was not capable of stopping the advance of the enemy division, as they liked to write in "Murzilki".
  43. +2
    15 May 2022 09: 02
    Quote: Alexander Kuksin
    And this is An-2, sawing quietly for itself ... And scored on the weather ...

    And what follows from this? The car ran out of gas, and that's it, it's not going anywhere. But a cart with a horse is much better - he unharnessed the horse in the evening and let it graze along the road. She will find food for herself, right?
  44. +2
    15 May 2022 09: 20
    Quote: maksbazhin
    The author of the article writes about the control of the S-70, like a quadrocopter,

    And on what basis did the author conclude that the S-70 should be controlled like a quadrocopter? Because his knowledge does not extend beyond quadrocopters?
  45. +2
    15 May 2022 10: 10
    Ehhh, Roman... Roman... laughing
    I will say TWO things:
    1. If these are the author’s speculations, then they are fundamentally wrong
    2. If the opinion is from a third-party heard, then the delusion of a third-party ...
    wink
    Let's start with the fact that there is a bunch of two aircraft, no matter which ones, - this is the addition of the advantages of each and the leveling of their specific shortcomings. Two aircraft connected in the air, these are no longer two autonomously operating devices! You need to dance from here, i.e. from the stove.
    Further...
    I remember that somehow at the beginning of this century I had a chance to take part in v.v. the round anniversary of a well-known and respected magazine writing on topics incl. aviation. My message covered the use of UAVs and so on. to cover and close our open borders from the North. Then, if anyone remembers, there was no continuous radar field, there were also questions about how to detect stealth ...
    And during a break at the buffet table, a high rank of the Air Force, responsible for these issues, came up to me, now retired for a long time ... And he looked around, to which I asked surprised, he - "yes, I'll see if there are any pilots nearby, lest they hear and be offended..."
    He also reported stunning news for those times, like, but naf pilots are needed on the plane? They are nothing but troubles. The plane can do everything by itself... There are breakthroughs in AI and the pilot is no longer needed: it takes off by itself, finds itself, attacks... comes back!
    And if this is so, then the task of the pilot is to serve as a remote officer in combat control, i.e. issuance of UAVs - promptly emerging tasks!
  46. +1
    15 May 2022 16: 39
    Quote: FRoman1984
    Quote: ism_ek
    I remember a year or two ago, the author asked the question: "Why do we need an expensive Su-34 when there is a Su-24 that recommended itself well in Syria?" The war in Ukraine answered the author's question. And if we were able to move on to the fifth generation of aircraft, we would already dominate the skies over Ukraine.
    We need a heavy drone. And this should not be an analogue of the American Reapers, which, thanks to the screw, are clearly visible on radars and are easy prey for air defense.

    And why do we need the Su-34 after all? It is shot down by the old Buk-M1 in the same way as the Su-24. How much have we already lost? Minimum 5 cars.
    We need our own Reaper with an internal combustion engine, which allows us to hang in the air for days. With the same cool avionics. About invisibility / visibility is a myth. All these machines are visible on the radar in any case. This Hunter is money down the toilet. Another dead project with no future.

    5 new generation machines like the Su-34 ??? Link to the studio!
    It looks more fake than it is true.
    1. -1
      15 May 2022 17: 51
      And this is fake!
  47. -1
    15 May 2022 17: 47
    Quote: BoA KAA
    Quote: Sibguest
    The only sound judgment in his long article: "So is there any prospect for the Su-57 - S-70 bunch"

    And he himself does not really want to consider this prospect, judging by the photos given in the article. He did not even bother to show the S-70 with a flat nozzle (December 2021)

    And the second question: why the author did not bother to mention the artificial intelligence of the "Hunter", but fell into arguments about how difficult it would be for a pilot to simultaneously control the S-70 and pilot the SU-57 ...
    And the fact that the AI ​​replaces the pilot on the S-70 --- not a word! As well as about the machine exchange between the sides along the VZOI line ...
    But he sowed doubts among the public and hefty ones, I must say. In this he is an unsurpassed master! bully

    The more I read such opuses, the more I come to the conclusion that such resources need to be very limited. For there are too many incompetent "specialists" who begin to talk with a smart expression on their faces about what they actually understand superficially at best, but they try to talk like they are design bureau designers who were fired for public masturbation at the workplace.
    And people like the author litter the brains with their complete incompetence to very, very many, and those, in turn, also embark on arguments in which they don’t really understand shit, spreading this nonsense even more.
    And in the end, we get a society of cretins who are sure that they understand the topic better than those who directly cook in it.
    1. +1
      16 May 2022 20: 50
      Wow! Is it better to go back to 1987, when nothing worse than the MiG-23 was printed in the Technique of Youth because of dumb secrecy? But every student could admire the F-15 and F-16 from the ZVO clippings. On the contrary, I am for publicity where possible, they do not create tea for their own money. At the moment, programs for heavy UAVs have "eaten" programs for lighter ones, apparently due to the UAC's idiotic ambitions and desire to deal with expensive piece copies.
  48. +4
    15 May 2022 22: 05
    Quote: Gambit44

    The more I read such opuses, the more I come to the conclusion that such resources need to be very limited. For there are too many incompetent "specialists" who begin to talk with a smart expression on their faces about what they actually understand superficially at best, but they try to talk like they are design bureau designers who were fired for public masturbation at the workplace.
    And people like the author litter the brains with their complete incompetence to very, very many, and those, in turn, also embark on arguments in which they don’t really understand shit, spreading this nonsense even more.
    And in the end, we get a society of cretins who are sure that they understand the topic better than those who directly cook in it.

    The more I read topwar, the more often I come across such ... in short, these are the "regulators" who tell the rest of the site visitors what to say, what and how to do, to whom what to write and how to publish.
    An old adage comes to mind:
    Don't tell me what to do and I won't tell you where to go.
    hi
    1. 0
      15 May 2022 23: 06
      Prospect or failure will show time and real combat use. And now right now there are no simple quadrics. We look further at the development of UAVs. They are everywhere air-ground-water.
    2. 0
      17 May 2022 15: 15
      Here is actually a clear example of such a "specialist".
      Well, how is it .. you see, they kind of shut up his mouth and don’t let him talk nonsense and run away in this nonsense of the rest. No.
  49. 0
    16 May 2022 11: 45
    It's just a shame when experts start writing. We have the Moskva cruiser, a disgrace, we have aviation that is afraid of direct combat. In some way, gentlemen, you have ruined your reputation. I'm afraid when the Ukrainians have more anti-aircraft weapons, you're finished. am
  50. -1
    16 May 2022 14: 03
    And again, I repeat, another "whistle". The article is good, the comments are even better, but what's the point? As volunteers will buy drones in China and other equipment with their own money, they will continue to do so.
  51. +1
    16 May 2022 18: 20
    The beginning...banter. Next...banter
    Damn, again contempt in the style of the nineties. Then they spoiled the country. The next generation makes the same mistakes. Teenagers with ambitions do not understand: this approach to the problem is destructive. This is not an objective approach. This is destruction.
  52. +1
    16 May 2022 18: 29
    Skomarokhov - you confirmed your last name. It is clear that the author is not even closely related to either the SU-57 or, especially, the S-70, but at the same time he expressed his “expert” opinion. (They did not deign to study even partially open data. “The Chukchi is not a reader, the Chukchi is a writer”)
  53. The comment was deleted.
  54. 0
    22 May 2022 14: 28
    For many sawmillers from all kinds of design bureaus, the ideal option is a very long and innovative project, for which funds need to be allocated for years. This is a black hole for the budget. And as we know, few people bear responsibility for such failures. By the way, this practice came to us from overseas. There are cuts on a truly gigantic scale/
  55. The comment was deleted.
  56. 0
    27 June 2022 04: 40
    Author, you are trying to reinvent the wheel. You don’t need a two-seat Su57, or an A50, much less an An26. All that is needed is to build a reliable closed communication channel and control this UAV from somewhere, from a bunker, say, in Nizhny Tagil. Americans already went through all this decades ago and are successfully using
  57. The comment was deleted.
  58. 0
    12 September 2022 15: 20
    Let’s wait for “product 30” and see what height the Su-70 can rise with a direct-flow pusher (optional).
  59. 0
    4 July 2023 16: 50
    hmm... I was extremely amused by the article, especially in the context of “all are experts, but I’m DeArtagnan”...
    After all, even a no brainer that management is an extremely broad term. For example, the commander of a tank unit, especially in the early periods of the Second World War and therefore often even without radio communication with other vehicles, also controlled the units entrusted to him during the battle... such mysticism (though in your logic he had to run from the tank to tank by pressing the pedals and turning the turret). Nobody is talking about the direct control of each unit, which both has an operator and elements of an inskin; it is rather a coordination of actions like poking on a virtual battle map - “you’re on the right, you’re on the left, I’m the father-in-law.” I’ll tell you more, if you don’t take into account direct maneuvering, most aircraft with pilots are still controlled from the ground, and at least all sorts of spotters and target counters, not to mention the flight director. And in the case of drones, a live coordinator is precisely what is needed to reduce the influence of electronic warfare to a minimum, because the closer the transmitter-receiver, the more difficult it is to jam them, and in the presence of narrow, directional channels for transmitting digital packets, this is generally a disaster.
    Therefore, all control comes down to the distribution of targets, directions and control points for movement, interaction models... All this is done with a couple of clicks on the screen and in advance (and if there is a second operator, then constantly), because controlling a modern fighter is not like in the old days - sneezed unsuccessfully and went into a tailspin, there are so many degrees of protection against fools that the autopilot of a Tesla or EPS in a foreign car nervously smokes on the sidelines. Yes, during a direct maneuverable battle there is no time for this, but this is precisely where the retinue is needed - to tie up everything that is fighting back in battle, and give the coordinator time to either redirect everyone correctly or deliver a precision strike himself.

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