Fedorov assault rifle. The first attempt at unification ...

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Red Army soldiers with Fedorov assault rifles on a Finnish pillbox. Famous photo from the Winter War 1939-1940.

He fired once, and fired two, and a bullet whistled into the bushes ...
You shoot like a soldier, - Kamal said,
- I'll see how you ride!

"Ballad of West and East", R. Kipling

stories about weapons. A tradition of the XNUMXth century: first, different types of troops and different calibers of weapons. By the middle of the century, they realized that it was not profitable. Nevertheless, each type of troops had their own weapons: infantry, hussar, cuirassier, dragoon, Cossack rifles ... True, the caliber is the same, but the weapons are different. In the middle of the century, the calibers were reduced, cartridges appeared, the nomenclature decreased. Rifle infantry, dragoon, Cossack. It is clear that there are more similarities than differences, but, nevertheless, the weapons were different! The Russo-Japanese War added a submachine gun to the arsenal of the Russian army - the Danish Madsen machine gun. But in terms of design, it was very different from our rifle, not to mention the Maxim machine gun. There was no talk of any unification. And in the army, the point of view about the "strength of a rifle" dominated. Newspapers wrote that the Russo-Japanese War showed that "our gun is much stronger than the Japanese».


Fedorov assault rifle 1916. Right view. The original design draws attention to itself - the presence of a front handle so that the shooters would instinctively not grab the magazine and thereby loosen it. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

And only a few experts paid attention to the fact that the 6,5 mm cartridge of the Japanese Arisaka rifle was lighter than our 7,62 mm, required less scarce non-ferrous metal, but the wounds inflicted by his bullet were almost identical to the wounds from the bullets " trilinear". And it also turned out that the targets on the battlefield began to appear so quickly that the soldiers did not have time to reload the rifle, aim and fire. Which in practice meant that it was necessary to automate all these processes, that is, to create a self-loading rifle!




Fedorov assault rifle 1916. View from the left. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

And since many people understood this, work on its creation was carried out everywhere. Abroad, the notorious H. Maxim, as well as P. Mauser and F. Mannlicher excelled in this direction. But in Russia there were gunsmiths who worked on these weapons, and quite a lot: Roschepey, Tokarev, Staganovich, Shchukin, Vasmund and others. But ... with state support for their work, things were not going well. And above all, because the Emperor Nicholas II himself was an opponent of such weapons, since he believed that we did not have enough cartridges for an automatic rifle. Money was found for a new dress uniform of the 1912 model, that is, in fact, “for rags”, but for new rifles and cartridges for them, that is, “for pieces of iron” - no!


View of the Fedorov assault rifle from above


View from above. shutter closed


View from above. The shutter is open. The magazine feeder plate is clearly visible


Bottom view. The safety lever is visible under the trigger guard. There was also a fire translator behind the trigger, which was very convenient in terms of ergonomics

Nevertheless, V. G. Fedorov also took up an automatic rifle - he taught at that time at the Mikhailovsky Artillery School and presented his first model just following the results of the Russo-Japanese War already in 1906. They tested it at the training ground of the Officers' Rifle School in Oranienbaum a year later, and it turned out that a good automatic rifle could not be created on the basis of the "three-ruler". As a result, a mechanic V. A. Degtyarev was appointed to help him, and work on an automatic rifle was continued. And it was so successful that in 1911, for his rifle of the 1912 model, he received a gold medal and the Mikhailovsky Prize, which was issued once every five years. Like Captain Mosin at one time ... That is, it is obvious that its development was worthwhile!


The machine, as far as possible with a meager number of issued copies, was actively used during the years of the civil war, in particular, during the battles in Finland

And then he realized that the best way out for the designer is to create a cartridge-weapon tandem, or his own weapon under his own cartridge. And he created ... a 6,5-mm caliber cartridge, in many ways similar to the cartridge of the Japanese Arisaka rifle. Similar, but not identical!

Fedorov assault rifle. The first attempt at unification ...
The automation of the rifle and the Fedorov submachine gun worked due to the recoil of the barrel during its short course. This is what his mechanism looked like when removed from the stock. The lever above the trigger on the slide box is the slide delay. Photo http://www.forgottenweapons.com


The barrel and bolt were connected to each other by two plates ("larvae") with projections. Both plates - both left and right - moved inside such a U-shaped profile, which was in a wooden box and was easily removed during disassembly. Photo http://www.forgottenweapons.com

And then the First World War began, followed by the highest ban on all innovations for which there was simply no money, and Fedorov himself was sent abroad to buy rifles for the Russian army, since, as always, she did not have enough of her own rifles for the war. But - "there was no happiness, but misfortune helped." The army urgently needed "machine guns", but since it was not possible to quickly establish the production of foreign models, they decided on a palliative - to use Fedorov's automatic rifle as such a weapon, equipping it with a large-capacity magazine.


This plate is right under the reload handle. An L-shaped rod is visible under the barrel, on which the return spring of the barrel was put on. Photo http://www.forgottenweapons.com

And already in 1916, as a colonel, he remade his automatic rifles of 7,62 and 6,5 mm caliber in such a way that automatic fire could be fired from them. A 6,5-mm rifle with an attached magazine with a capacity of 25 rounds just became the coveted "submachine gun", moreover, of domestic design. The caliber cartridge of the 6,5 mm Arisaka rifle instead of the standard 7,62 × 54 mm R rifle cartridge was chosen for it because of its smaller size and power, despite the fact that its bullet speed was comparable to the data of the Russian cartridge - 860 m / s against 820-870 m/s. The sleeve without a “strongly protruding hat” (that is, with a small welt and groove) was also more convenient, which was easier to use in a store with a two-row arrangement of cartridges.


And here is how this mechanism worked: when the barrel, coupled to the bolt, moved back when fired, the larvae symmetrically located on its breech fell on the frame protrusions and changed their position, leaving the bolt protrusions. In this case, the bolt and barrel were disengaged. The barrel then returned back, and the shutter by inertia (and thanks to the push of the accelerator) went back and compressed its own return spring, which then pushed it forward. As a result, the rifle was reloaded, and the whole cycle was repeated. It is clear that the polishing of the larvae had to be of very high quality. Photo http://www.forgottenweapons.com

By the way, the bullet of the 6,5 × 50 mm Arisaka cartridge just weighed 9 grams, and he himself had a weight of 21,25 grams and a charge of gunpowder of 2,15 grams. By the way, the weight of the cartridge of a three-line rifle was 22,7-25,1 g, the weight of the bullet was 9,6-11,8 g, and the weight of the powder charge was 3,1 g. That is, it did not differ so much from our cartridge .


View of one of the locking plates-larvae from the inside. With a round ledge, it connected to the breech of the barrel, and with a rounded one it hooked on the ledge on the bolt! Photo http://www.forgottenweapons.com

His rifles and “machine guns” (as his 25-cartridge shortened rifle samples were called) also got to the front, moreover, to the Romanian in the amount of only eight samples and with magazines for 15 rounds, although there were much more rifles themselves - 45 pieces. In general, the new weapon showed itself. But then a revolution began, then a civil war, and with the production of a new machine gun, things essentially stalled until 1920. But from the 20th to the 24th year, they were already able to produce 3200 pieces.


Machine after disassembly. It is clearly seen that the barrel had a very modern longitudinal fins for better cooling. Photo http://www.forgottenweapons.com

It should be noted that the machine had a fairly simple design, especially in comparison with the same Madsen machine gun. The locking elements in the Fedorov assault rifle were a pair of mirror plates-larvae (“cheeks”), symmetrically located opposite each other on the barrel and swinging in a vertical plane. The cylindrical protrusion of the larva entered the corresponding groove on the trunk and served as the axis of its rotation. With a ledge in the back, she came in when locking the lugs of the bolt. And the lower ledge of the larva served to interact with the ledge of the receiver during unlocking, by pressing which it turned.


Soldiers of the Red Army with Fedorov assault rifles. 20s

Paul Mauser's rifle, released back in 1899, had a similar device, although Fedorov's plates were made and arranged differently. It is worth adding that in the design of Paul Mauser's self-loading rifle there was no lever - an accelerator, which was reflected in its reliability. In general, Fedorov, of course, had the opportunity to get acquainted with this design, but he approached it clearly creatively, so that the result was much better than that of Mauser in 1899.

But then the most interesting began. Already in 1922, separate companies armed with Fedorov assault rifles began to form in the Red Army. And it was a phenomenal breakthrough in the field of military affairs.


6,5-mm machine gun V. G. Fedorov and V. A. Degtyarev. Prototype. 1921

In 1923, the machine was modernized by installing a new sight, trigger and magazine. That is, two samples of the Fedorov assault rifle: M1916 and M1923.


6,5-mm light machine gun V. G. Fedorov and G. S. Shpagin with a cooling cover for the Lewis machine gun. Prototype. 1922

At the Kovrov plant, a special design bureau for automatic small arms was created, where Fedorov, with his assistant Degtyarev and a number of other designers, began to unify his machine gun as a single infantry weapon, tanks и aviation. First time in stories, and it was in our country that the benefits of such unification were realized, and concrete steps were taken in this direction. A number of samples of light, heavy, tank and aircraft machine guns were developed, as well as twin and even built structures powered by disks. In total, 11 (!) Designs were presented, both under 6,5 mm and under 7,62 mm. Moreover, the samples chambered for the last cartridge became the direct predecessors of the DP-27 machine gun and the ABC-36 rifle. But all these developments remained so experienced, since the Fedorov assault rifle was unexpectedly withdrawn from service with the Red Army in 1928. Why? No one knows for sure, and there is no explanation for this.


6,5-mm light machine gun V. G. Fedorov and V. A. Degtyarev. Prototype. 1922


Light machine gun V. G. Fedorov and V. A. Degtyarev with water cooling. There was also a sample

It is said that there were too many "maxims", and it would be very expensive to change trunks for them; that the armor penetration of the 6,5 mm cartridge compared to the standard 7,62 × 54 mm R cartridge was low, that the Fedorov assault rifle was difficult to manufacture. But what prevented you from keeping two cartridges in the army? "Machine-gun" heavy and automatic-machine-gun "light". After all, I had to go for it in a situation with the adoption of submachine guns, and nothing - everything worked out. The unification of production would be more important, and the training of troops would be simplified. But ... for some reason, the leadership of the Red Army did not take into account all these arguments of reason, and for some reason Fedorov himself did not insist.


6,5-mm coaxial light machine gun V. G. Fedorov and G. S. Shpagin. Shops were inserted from above. Prototype. 1922

True, when the Red Army had problems on the Mannerheim line, his machine guns were confiscated from the warehouses and armed with them by the assault groups of the Red Army. And no one complained about the complexity or capriciousness of this weapon. But be that as it may, “the train has already left”, and for the second time the idea of ​​​​unifying army small arms in the USSR came on the basis of the experience of World War II and the Kalashnikov assault rifle that appeared after it!
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  1. +11
    15 May 2022 04: 51
    The review of the material is not bad. But I did not understand what the unification attempt was.
    And no one complained about the complexity or capriciousness of this weapon.

    So a total of 3400 units of this weapon were produced. How many of them remained usable by 1939, how many from the warehouses were sent to the troops, history is silent. I don't think more than a couple hundred. And they were armed with assault groups. In the first photo we see not young conscripts, but obvious specialists. So what can be complaints after a couple of months of use. Maybe they were, only due to the small number, and because. the weapon was of no interest in further use and production on them, they simply waved their hand.
    1. +9
      15 May 2022 05: 18
      Quote: 28st region
      the weapon was not of interest in further use

      The weapon "represented" like roses, but production did not allow ... besides, with the production of ammunition, production also did not allow at all ..
      1. +6
        15 May 2022 06: 37
        "... When Ustinov brought the discussion of Koshkin's idea to the People's Commissariat, the leading experts, representatives of enterprises, senior officials - every single one of them rejected it ... Dmitry Fedorovich let everyone go, and Koshkina asked what he needed to make a model line ... When the line started working, D. F. Ustinov again gathered everyone who was last time. Koshkin reported on the results, Ustinov asked: "Well, what shall we do now, comrades?" Other conversations began!..." **
        :)) This is after the war.
        1. +3
          15 May 2022 06: 48
          Quote: surok1
          This is after the war.

          Only this is after the Great Patriotic War, and the Fedorov assault rifle after the First World War and the Civil War ... The industry was a little completely different ...
    2. -5
      15 May 2022 16: 38
      Quote: 28st region

      So a total of 3400 units of this weapon were produced. How many of them remained usable by 1939, how many from the warehouses were sent to the troops, history is silent. I don't think more than a couple hundred.

      The Fedorov assault rifle was released in 1916 and would have been very good for military operations back in the 1st World War.
      It is a pity that they were released in very small quantities ...
      But during the civil war, they already understood the creativity of automation. And they used a "trench broom" against their people
      1. +5
        16 May 2022 12: 19
        But during the civil war, they already understood the creativity of automation. And they used a "trench broom" against their people
        - another Vlasov-Bandera sufferer for the people?
        Anti-Sovietism is the highest form of Russophobia, and vlad106 (Vlad) is a brilliant confirmation of this. According to vlad106 (Vlad) and his like-minded people, these are those who serve the interventionists, those who especially subtly kill Russians because they are Russians.
        Now, to the point. During the civil war, Fedorov's assault rifles were used not just anywhere, but specifically in the Soviet-Finnish wars:
        First Soviet-Finnish War began on May 15, 1918 after the democratic government of Finland officially declared war on the RSFSR. As a result of this war, the Finnish leadership wanted to get Eastern Karelia and the Kola Peninsula. By the way, for the sake of a joint victory over the Bolsheviks, Yudenich put too much on the White Guard slogan "United and indivisible Russia", and not only recognized the independence of Finland, but also agreed with its territorial claims against Russia. In this respect, he was not alone. The independence of Finland was recognized by Kolchak and all the White Guard movements (Denikin, Wrangel, etc.). The first Soviet-Finnish war dragged on intermittently and ended on October 14, 1920 with the signing of the Tartu Peace Treaty between the RSFSR and Finland.
        Second war was unofficial. To the greatest joy of vlad106 (Vlad), it began on November 6, 1921, when Finnish volunteer units, without declaring war, invaded the RSFSR on the territory of Karelia to kill Russians. The claims are the same: give Finland Eastern Karelia and the Kola Peninsula. This war ended on March 21, 1922, with the signing in Moscow of an Agreement between the governments of the RSFSR and Finland on the adoption of measures to ensure the inviolability of the Soviet-Finnish border.
        It was in these wars, according to vlad106 (Vlad), that the bloody Bolsheviks brutally killed “their people” from Fedorov’s machine guns. By the way, Shpakovsky signed the photo
        Fedorov's assault rifle was actively used during the years of the civil war, in particular, during the fighting in Finland
        - none other than another sufferer for the Nazis. The Red Army did not fight on the territory of Finland. She hadn't been before.
        However, even before these wars, in 1918, Russian troops, the fragments of the old tsarist army that were stationed in Finland, and the large Russian community came under attack. This led to acts of genocide by the White Finns. The Finns attacked and destroyed small units of the Russian army, which had already decomposed so much that it could not even defend itself. To the greatest joy of vlad106 (Vlad), Finnish nationalists robbed, arrested and killed Russians. Then the White Finns began to build concentration camps for the Reds - a holy cause! Without this, there is no democracy and freedom! The Nazis sought to oust the Russians from Finland not only with direct terror, but also with the help of a boycott, direct insults, harassment, deprivation of all civil rights. At the same time, almost all the property acquired by the Russians was abandoned by them and lost.
        Let's give specific examples. So, on April 12-13, 1918, Helsingfors was stormed by the Germans and White Finns. Prior to this, the Soviet Command of the Baltic Fleet carried out a unique emergency operation to transfer ships from Helsingfors to Kronstadt. The remaining Russian ships and vessels were captured by the Finns and Germans. All captured Russian sailors and soldiers who wanted to touch Western civilization were shot.
        At the end of April, the White Finns took Vyborg. This event went down in history as the "Vyborg Massacre". After the capture of Vyborg by the troops of General Mannerheim on April 29, 1918 (I have no doubt that vlad106 (Vlad) regularly wears flowers to his memorial plaque), arrests and mass executions of Finnish Red Guards and civilians suspected of having links with the communists were carried out. As in all similar cases, during the civil war, the White Guards determined belonging to the communists extremely simply: - by the degree of suspicion of the muzzle. Therefore, in the absolute majority of the “communists” arrested in Vyborg, they were local Russians who had nothing to do with the red movement. To the delight of vlad106 (Vlad), white Finnish units entered the city under the slogan "Shoot the Russians!".
        At a time when the bloody Bolsheviks with Fedorov machine guns fought against their people, ordinary Finnish guys brought Freedom and Western civilization to Russia. The usual violence and murder of the local population quickly became boring to them, so they subtly killed the local population (not communists, not Red Army soldiers), hammering rifle cartridges into their ears. This is the very own (Finnish) people, about which vlad106 (Vlad) suffers so sweetly.


        Photo from Finnish newspapers with joyful reports about the Vyborg carving.
        1. 0
          16 May 2022 14: 10
          Good afternoon. Let me shake. But even if it’s even, it was Lenin who launched the flywheel, because he signed and recognized the independence of Finland. And only after that, the Swedes, Germans, etc. I remember Lenin even called Stalin a Russian chauvinist. So that you can understand my opinion, here I completely agree with Putin, Lenin, the enemy of Russian statehood, He has done so much in the national sense that we are now disentangling it, with his submission, a single Russian "body" was cut into Russian-Ukrainian-Belarusians. So, that, that Lenin, that Yudenich, there are no rightists there.
          1. +2
            17 May 2022 08: 02
            But to be honest, it was Lenin who launched the flywheel, because he signed and recognized the independence of Finland.
            - gee-gee-gee! Everything is correct! The first rule of anti-Sovietism: whatever happens, Lenin and the USSR are to blame for everything. Those. if Lenin had not recognized the independence of Finland, then there would have been no Vyborg massacre, executions of soldiers and sailors who did not want to return to Russia, stuffing cartridges in the ears of prisoners, etc., etc.
            Since the end of the XNUMXth century, the rise of separatist sentiments began in the Grand Duchy of Finland. And this despite the fact that she had no objective reasons for separating from Russia. Finland had a maximum of freedom with a minimum of duties. This contrasted sharply with the conditions of the Swedish occupation, and apparently therefore the Swedes were considered by the Finns as the best allies, and their attitude towards the Russians was reduced to ever-increasing national hatred. As a result, the Finnish question became part of the general revolutionary situation in the Russian Empire.
            During the First World War in Finland, due to its special status, there was no mobilization. Only about 500 people volunteered for the Russian army. At the same time, the separatists set up secret points for collecting and sending volunteers to the German army. In addition, Finland became the food base of the German Empire - the enemy of Russia. Food deliveries to Russia practically ceased and were redirected through Sweden to Germany. In fact, it was a breakthrough in the blockade of Germany. In the autumn of 1915, Great Britain and France strongly demanded that Nick-2 stop deliveries of food and other goods to Germany through Sweden. However, thanks to the lack of will and mediocrity of Nick-2, transit through Sweden has not changed. Blame, of course, Lenin.
            After the victory of the February Revolution in Russia, the Provisional Government agreed with the autonomy of Finland, but opposed its complete independence. The Finns said figvam and on July 5 (18), 1917, the Finnish Seimas adopted the "Law on Power", which limited the competence of the Provisional Government to questions of military and foreign policy. Then the Provisional Government dispersed the Sejm. After that, the nationalists began to form their own armed detachments - shutskor (from the Swedish. Skyddskar, in Finland referred to as Fin. Suojeluskunta - Security Corps, self-defense detachment). Security detachments were created on the basis of the sports society "Union of Power" created in 1906. In it, several thousand young people increased their physical endurance and learned marksmanship. Thus, the Finns created their Security Corps 16 years earlier than the Germans. Subsequently, this security detachment became the basis of the Finnish punitive units.
            On November 28, 1917, the Finnish Parliament assumed supreme power in the country and formed a government - the Senate of Finland under the leadership of Per Evind Svinhufvud. Svinhufvud was known for fighting against the Russification of Finland, which made him a national hero. In addition, he wanted to establish a monarchical form of government in Finland and was guided by Sweden and Germany.
            On December 4, 1917, Svinhufvud announced a change in the political system of Finland (the establishment of a republic), and conveyed a request to the authorities of foreign states, including the Constituent Assembly of Russia, to recognize the political independence and sovereignty of Finland. On December 6, 1917, Parliament approved this declaration.
            On December 18 (31), 1917, Lenin signed the Decree of the Council of People's Commissars recognizing the independence of Finland. On December 23, 1917 (January 5, 1918), the independence of the Republic of Finland was recognized by the Soviet All-Russian Central Executive Committee.
            Question: what flywheel did Lenin launch? The recognition of Finland's independence gave Russia a chance for peaceful coexistence. However, the recognition of independence did not moderate Finnish Russophobia and their desire to profit at the expense of Russia. The non-recognition of Finland also changed absolutely nothing. An alternative to the recognition of Finland could only be a punitive expedition, for which Russia simply did not have troops.
            1. -2
              17 May 2022 11: 51
              There is no need to cast a shadow on the wattle fence - the fact is a fact Lenin RECOGNIZED AND SIGNED the independence of Finland without any conditions prescribed in the agreement on the Border, thereby giving a reason to the Finns, since the border is not indicated in the agreement, then we will spend it where we can. It was Lenin who cut Ukraine into the lands of Novorossia and Little Russia, so that there is no need to talk about Lenin's crimes against Russia and Russians. As Quintilian wrote of history, whether we approve of it or not, history itself. No need to try to attach wings to Lenin, he does not roll on a saint. Russia is still lucky that the Leninist project of the Far Eastern Republic did not burn out, otherwise Russia and the Far East would have lost. That Nicholas || was a doormat, does not change the fact that it was Lenin who was the first to officially distribute independence and destroy Russia from the inside.
              1. +2
                18 May 2022 09: 02
                A wounded lion and a hare will bite. They didn't care about contracts. We could have taken Peter, we would have taken Peter.
                1. kaa
                  +2
                  19 May 2022 11: 23
                  Exactly. The Poles also concluded an agreement with Lithuania with demarcation, and a couple of days later occupied their capital at ease. Then they tore the ground wherever they could.
              2. 0
                20 May 2022 12: 47
                under the interim government, the Republic of Ingushetia fell apart like a house of cards. only the seizure of power by the Bolsheviks saved the country from complete disintegration and occupation by enemies. so leave your nationalist rhetoric to your brothers
        2. 0
          23 May 2022 10: 35
          Old Electrician (Victor)
          "Now, in essence. During the civil war, Fedorov's assault rifles were used not just anywhere, but specifically in the Soviet-Finnish wars ..."
          ,,,,,,,

          Oh, how much water he poured "electric horseradish"!
          And the fact that security officers of all sorts of butchers were armed with these weapons - Rozaliy Zalkindov Zemlyachek, Sofia Gerberov, Frum Khaikin, have you forgotten about this?
          Or hutspish bullshit,


          Surely you are a descendant of the Trotskyists who exterminated the Russian people, just as now the Bandera-fascists of the Azov, Right-wing Sectors and other OUN scum are destroying people in the Donbass.
          You are one hundred percent a descendant of these Trotskyists, Shukhevychs - if the FSB officers dig you
        3. 0
          23 May 2022 17: 27
          Old Electrician (Victor)
          During the civil war, Fedorov's assault rifles were used not just anywhere, but specifically in the Soviet-Finnish wars:

          Come on, tell the bullshit-hutzpist how many Red Army soldiers participated in that war and how many AF were used!
          Specifically. With dates. Quantity.
          Do not you know?
          Total 0,1%
          And 99% of them were Mosin rifles.
          So, the lord of the Trotskyite hutspist - Fedorov's assault rifles were used by units and subdivisions of the Cheka-OGPU during the Prodrazverstka - "robbery of the peasants" on the orders of the Trotsky leaders Yankel Sverdlov and their followers
  2. +9
    15 May 2022 04: 54
    A wonderful galaxy of Russian gunsmiths and continuity, from Mosin and Fedorov to Degtyarev and Shpagin. Fedorov did an internship, after the academy, at a factory near Mosin, and Degtyarev and Shpagin started at Fedorov as gunsmiths.
  3. +11
    15 May 2022 05: 34
    And only a few experts paid attention to the fact that The 6,5 mm cartridge of the Japanese Arisaka rifle was lighter than our 7,62 mm,
    Obviously sad, but below:
    By the way, the bullet of the 6,5 × 50 mm Arisaka cartridge just weighed 9 grams, and he himself had a weight of 21,25 gram and gunpowder charge in 2,15 gram. By the way, the weight of the three-line rifle cartridge was 22,7-25,1 g, bullet weight - 9,6-11,8 g, and weight powder charge - 3,1 d. That is it was not so much different from our patron.
    What is it like? The powder charge is 30% less - nonsense. And the cartridge is 10% heavier - horror!
    Yeah, Shpakovsky in his repertoire, advertising technology in action. Where necessary, sighs and pauses from the Moscow Art Theater, and in the other, they will definitely blurt out.
    1. +4
      15 May 2022 07: 12
      They said that the "strength" of our patron injured the puny Japanese, and from this the cartridge Arisaka was born. And, as time has shown, at a distance of effective shooting, our cartridge did not have obvious advantages.
      I read the memoirs of the Finnish war, where the Fedorov machine gun was given a flattering assessment, for a clear advantage over the Finnish submachine guns.
      1. +2
        15 May 2022 13: 03
        Quote: surok1
        there, Fedorov’s machine gun was given a flattering assessment, with a clear advantage over Finnish submachine guns.

        Actually, these are different weapons - for a rifle cartridge and a pistol.
        And why AUTOMATIC FEDOROV? Let's already agree that an assault rifle is a weapon chambered for an intermediate cartridge. Why then are we not talking about the AUTOMATIC BROWNING? Released at the same time, in 1 MV, BAR, which fired in bursts, we call it an automatic rifle, and Fedorov created the FIRST automatic rifle. request request hi
        1. +4
          15 May 2022 13: 24
          Quote: fa2998
          Why don't we talk about the BROWNING AUTOMATIC then?

          Probably because in each country the names are formed in accordance with its own history and customs of the language. You don’t have any questions why the Germans have a “panzer”, and we have an Anglo-Saxon “tank”?
          Quote: fa2998
          And why AUTOMATIC FEDOROV?

          This name was given by Filatov N.M. in its classification long before the concept of "intermediate cartridge" was formed (and this is also not a worldwide name, but a local one ... one might say Soviet) ... In the west, the concept of Assault rifle - the term appeared in 1918, it was invented A. Lewis for weapons - "a rifle capable of conducting controlled fire with bursts from the hands, and having an effective firing range of at least 300 meters."
          1. 0
            15 May 2022 15: 47
            Quote: mat-vey
            Assault rifle - the term appeared in 1918, it was coined by A. Lewis for a weapon - "a rifle capable of conducting controlled fire with bursts from the hands, and having an effective firing range of at least 300 meters."

            Well, I think all "automatic machines" using a full-fledged rifle cartridge can be considered automatic rifles. Yes, they are good in range, but it is difficult to control from the hands. The first shot at the target, the rest - wherever God sends. hi
            1. +2
              15 May 2022 15: 59
              Quote: fa2998
              Well, I think all "automatic machines" using a full-fledged rifle cartridge can be considered automatic rifles

              And what about the HK G3.
              Well, at first the Mandragon rifle was considered automatic .... then the classification changed and it became self-loading ...
              Quote: fa2998
              .The first shot at the target, the rest - where God sends.

              I’m not sure that I’m running with you and the first shot at the target will be, especially under oncoming fire ...
              Well, the Fedorov Automatic Cartridge was, let's say, not quite ordinary - the gunpowder was Russian, less energetic than the native English-Japanese ..
        2. 0
          18 May 2022 08: 45
          From the fact that a pistol is not a rifle, was it easier for the Finns? Well, yes, the submachine gun is easier to carry, but the advantages of the machine more than pay for its greater weight. Ideally, you need to have a rifle in the dimensions and weight of a pistol, progress is aimed at this.
          Well, these BARs came a little later, didn't they? :) And they were positioned as light, but machine guns were attached one at a time to the squad, for support.
      2. +2
        16 May 2022 18: 58
        The 6,5 mm cartridge for the Arisaka rifle was a good cartridge, as was the rifle itself. This rifle was in service in the Russian army, it was used in the navy. The Sestroretsk Cartridge Plant launched the production of 6,5 mm cartridges. It is clear that Fedorov's cartridge was hardly pulled in the USSR, but the Japanese cartridge, together with the Arisaka rifle, the Fedorov assault rifle and unified models of small arms, could improve the supply of the Red Army. But then there was an opinion that the Mosin rifle had more armor-piercing, it's true, only this helped few people. Fedorov was a brilliant gunsmith designer, he foresaw the future. Unfortunately, questions about weapons models are sometimes accepted by people who generally have little understanding of technology and weapons. So it was then, and now little has changed.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  4. +8
    15 May 2022 06: 31
    It seems that Mr. Shpakovsky is not only a writer, but also a reader. A slightly free retelling of the chapter "The Fedorov assault rifle and the unification of small arms based on it" from D.N. Bolotin's book "The History of Soviet Small Arms and Cartridges", but without indicating the source, it looks like a pirate copyright. What, Mr. Shpakovsky, once again advise me to contact the local FSB, as you like when I catch you "by the hand"?
    1. -2
      15 May 2022 07: 14
      Quote: Amateur
      How do you like it when I catch you "by the hand"?

      Checking for novelty before submitting the material according to the Text Guide system showed 94% novelty. So fie on you.
      1. +12
        15 May 2022 08: 08
        You gave links to Leeds under the pictures, but no links to Bolotin. So they did it deliberately, because. Leeds for using without citing the source may be asked. Well, for Bolotin, who will ask. You can keep spitting.
        1. -1
          15 May 2022 08: 15
          Quote: Amateur
          Well, for Bolotin, who will ask.

          You are absolutely right. The fact is that Bolotin himself used photographs that had a statute of limitations. Since after the age of 75 any photographs become public property, that is, they go into the category of "public domain", mentioning their source is optional.
          1. 0
            15 May 2022 11: 34
            This is an important note. This is not the time to figure out who owes what to whom. We are bypassed in this area, this is not good.
  5. +4
    15 May 2022 07: 02
    ... received a gold medal in 1911 for his 1912 model rifle ... belay
  6. +7
    15 May 2022 07: 06
    Somewhere I already read this. About 15 years ago I can’t remember, but I’ll look request
    1. +7
      15 May 2022 07: 17
      D.N. Bolotov "History of Soviet small arms". The pictures are from there (except Leeds).
    2. -1
      15 May 2022 07: 24
      We also had material on the Military Review much earlier. It is enough to ask the search engine. But the text is different and the photographic materials are also different.
    3. +3
      15 May 2022 07: 59
      Apparently in the magazine "Modeler-Constructor", there was a big article about AF.
      1. -3
        15 May 2022 08: 16
        Quote: fiberboard
        Apparently in the magazine "Modeler-Constructor", there was a big article about AF.

        In "Modelist"???
        1. +4
          15 May 2022 19: 44
          What surprises you? At one time there were many interesting things. Aviation, navy, armored vehicles were widely covered. There was a good article about the emblems of the SS divisions and their brief history. In the 70s and 80s there was no Internet, but there was a library.
          1. -1
            15 May 2022 20: 59
            Quote: fiberboard
            What surprises you?

            The fact that I had all the M-K magazines from 1968 until the very last years. And I didn’t see such an article there, although I looked through it very carefully.
  7. +5
    15 May 2022 07: 37
    followed by the highest ban on all innovations for which there was simply no money
    "There is no money, but you hold on!" (C)
    1. 0
      15 May 2022 08: 20
      Quote: parusnik
      followed by the highest ban on all innovations for which there was simply no money
      "There is no money, but you hold on!" (C)

      "Early at dawn, and after a difficult shift
      Funny chants sound in our room. "(c)
  8. +10
    15 May 2022 07: 48
    And above all, because the Emperor Nicholas II himself was an opponent of such weapons, since he believed that we did not have enough cartridges for an automatic rifle.

    Is it just to imagine, there are not enough cartridges? And hats to throw the enemy means enough! Just imagine what crap rule the state!
    1. +3
      15 May 2022 07: 50
      Quote from Electric
      Just imagine what crap rule the state!

      This is where it fell apart. True, there were the hardships of the war and the fatigue of the army and the people from it.
      1. +5
        15 May 2022 08: 00
        I mean, the state was almost freed from shit for the period of Stalin's rule, and then slowly sailed ...
        1. -1
          15 May 2022 08: 18
          Quote from Electric
          that the state was almost freed from shit for the period of Stalin's rule, and then slowly sailed ...

          But aren't Khrushchev, Malenkov, Gromyko, Molotov and all the others his fosterlings? Is it called "freed"?
          1. +2
            15 May 2022 16: 17
            Royal fosterlings, I agree. And Stalin is not an educator and not a father for all this, with human abilities to adapt and crawl. Now, in general, there is not a single person in power in the course!
            1. 0
              15 May 2022 16: 40
              Quote from Electric
              Royal fosterlings

              Well, Khrushchev was born in 1894, but he can hardly be called a foster child, because in 1917 he was a metal worker ... So are others. All the ranks and awards and position in the country they have from Stalin.
              1. +4
                15 May 2022 23: 52
                Nevertheless, Khrushchev was born a fool, and he died a fool! Envy, cunning, and a very inflated conceit!
                1. 0
                  16 May 2022 05: 55
                  Quote from Electric
                  Envy, cunning, and a very inflated conceit!

                  Right. But who of all the others, including "Marshal of Victory" Zhukov and other marshals and admirals at the Twentieth Congress, stood up and said: "Nikita, you're wrong!"? None. So he was not like that and that he managed to provide this. couldn't...
                  1. +1
                    16 May 2022 07: 25
                    Extra confirmation that they are in power?
  9. +10
    15 May 2022 08: 15
    But all these developments remained so experienced, since the Fedorov assault rifle was unexpectedly withdrawn from service with the Red Army in 1928. Why? No one knows for sure, and there is no explanation for this.

    There is only one reason - the unification of weapons chambered for 7,62 mm. Apparently, the material for the article was taken from the chapter "The Fedorov assault rifle and the unification of small arms based on it" of the book by Bolotin D.N. "Soviet small arms", M, Military publishing house, 1990
    https://www.rulit.me/author/bolotin-david-naumovich/sovetskoe-strelkovoe-oruzhie-get-561997.html
    https://booksee.org/book/504338?ysclid=l36udktk2j
  10. +5
    15 May 2022 09: 44
    Fedorov assault rifle, review by Americans
  11. +3
    15 May 2022 09: 54
    But what prevented the two cartridges from being kept in the army? "Machine-gun" heavy and automatic-machine-gun "light".

    It was the difference in calibers that interfered. Cartridges for the Mosin rifle, Kalashnikov assault rifle and PPSh are different in length, but the same in caliber.
    But ... for some reason, the leadership of the Red Army did not take into account all these arguments of reason, and for some reason Fedorov himself did not insist.

    Because they are reasonable only before the author of this article. But for the experts...
    1. -5
      15 May 2022 10: 19
      You see, Murat. our specialists have always had a quirk to save on everything. And in this case, savings on non-ferrous metals would be obvious. Then, after all, they still came to two cartridges: rifle and pistol. True, the caliber is one. But different sleeves. Saving. But less range of fire. In the case of 7,62 and 6,5, there would be different shells, metal savings and a longer range of fire. Then, after all, they came to the same thing again - a rifle cartridge for the PC and an automatic one for other things.
      1. +4
        15 May 2022 10: 47
        A pistol cartridge would still have to be created. And automatic too. In principle, it would make sense to leave only the 6,5 mm cartridge. But he did not fit into the measurement system, since 7,62 is 3 "lines", and 6,5 is where? In a word, the problem is engineering. By the way, the rifle cartridge is not only for the PC, but also for the SVD. And until 1956, the automatic machine was not thought of as the main one at all.
      2. +3
        15 May 2022 11: 28
        Quote: kalibr
        In the case of 7,62 and 6,5, there would be different shells, metal savings and a longer range of fire. Then, after all, they came to the same thing again - a rifle cartridge for the PC and an automatic one for other things.

        Do you have data on the 6,5 mm cartridge, which Fedorov himself developed for his first version of the machine gun? Before reworking the sample under the Arisaki cartridge.
        1. +3
          16 May 2022 15: 38
          developed by the commission in which Fedorov participated, at this time almost all countries were developing such cartridges.
          article from LJ
          https://borianm.livejournal.com/1316514.html
    2. +2
      15 May 2022 14: 23
      Quote: Murat
      Cartridges for the Mosin rifle, Kalashnikov assault rifle and PPSh are different in length, but the same in caliber.
      The caliber is the same, but the cartridges are fundamentally different: 7.62x54R (about 4 kJ), 7.62x39 (about 2 kJ) and 7.62x25 (about 0.6 kJ). Bullets are different, shells are different.
      1. +2
        15 May 2022 14: 39
        Quote: bk0010
        Bullets are different, shells are different.

        And gunpowder is different ..
      2. 0
        24 May 2022 06: 51
        To make cartridges, you need machines. To make these machines, you need other machines. And so they decided to make them the same. It turned out the same cigarettes and pasta. The effect of deep planning and savings.
  12. +2
    15 May 2022 11: 12
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Amateur
    How do you like it when I catch you "by the hand"?

    Checking for novelty before submitting the material according to the Text Guide system showed 94% novelty. So fie on you.

    Heh ... Heh .. We ourselves know how to do these tricks ... Wow "unification" ... to offer a new cartridge. I suppose Fedorov would have laughed for a long time if he had read this at one time ...
    1. 0
      15 May 2022 12: 48
      Quote: ivan2022
      I suppose Fedorov would have laughed for a long time if he had read this at one time ...

      And he didn't laugh. I wrote about it myself.
    2. -1
      15 May 2022 13: 01
      Quote: ivan2022
      These tricks we ourselves know how

      Really? Then you don’t have a single material published on VO. Would you like to try to make some material in this way?
  13. +5
    15 May 2022 11: 13
    Quote from Electric
    ... Just imagine, there won't be enough cartridges? And hats to throw the enemy means enough! Just imagine what crap rule the state!

    Caps to throw ukrov and now it was enough. This is to the question of varieties of shit.
  14. +5
    15 May 2022 16: 12
    Ruslan Chumak A new type of weapon. Fedorov assault rifle
    https://www.kalashnikov.ru/oruzhie-novogo-tipa-avtomat-fyodorova/
    concise, short and complete. what gives uv. the author is outdated.
    AF arr 16th.
    1. -4
      15 May 2022 16: 43
      The trouble is that this material cannot be placed on VO. And then I have beautiful photos - ha ha!
      1. +3
        16 May 2022 15: 49
        on the cartridge, developed by the commission in which Fedorov participated, used in his author. rifle on a par with the 3-line, at this time many worked on reduced-caliber cartridges, 7 × 57 Meunier 1912, .276 Enfield (7 × 60), .280 Ross (7x66)
        war corrected
        here is the french equivalent figure taken from thefirearmblog.com
        the economy won too. they left the 8 mm Lebel cartridge, as a result, unsuccessful RSC late for the war, with automatics almost like a Kalash.
  15. +3
    15 May 2022 20: 10
    Did the first Soviet MS-1 tanks seem to have 6,5 caliber machine guns? Fedorovsky?
    1. +2
      15 May 2022 21: 01
      Quote: Slug_BDMP
      Fedorovsky?

      Exactly. Spark.
      1. 0
        16 May 2022 21: 36
        But you yourself wrote in series they were not produced?
        1. 0
          16 May 2022 22: 08
          Prototypes were tested on separate tanks ... We got in the photo.
  16. +2
    16 May 2022 13: 25
    To be honest, an article for the sake of an article, nothing new and interesting.
    If the author wrote about examples of the use of the Fedorov assault rifle in the Finnish war, then yes.
    By the way, OSNAZ was armed with this machine gun to destroy bunkers and bunkers on the Mannerheim line. They acted first in threes, and then in sixes, of which three with Fedorov machine guns covered the group at the aisle in a wire fence and met the Finns who were advancing to ambush OSNAZ bunker hunters, since they were armed only with revolvers and grenades and bottles with AP. In the photo, most likely fighters from the cover troika.
    PS.
    And if you posted a video with shooting from this machine gun, then it would be a thing. And so, no offense, but the hundredth time the same thing. Especially on VO, if you dig the archive, it has been written about the Fedorov assault rifle more than once.
    1. -2
      16 May 2022 17: 12
      Quote: Khibiny Plastun
      Especially on VO, if you dig the archive, it has been written about the Fedorov assault rifle more than once.

      You're right. But the memory of people is forgotten. After 90 days, the majority forgets 98-99% of what is written!
  17. 0
    16 May 2022 19: 43
    It also turned out that the targets on the battlefield began to appear so quickly that the soldiers did not have time to reload the rifle, aim and fire

    I didn’t understand, why did the soldiers walk around with unloaded rifles? It seems to me that before the battle it is necessary to load the rifle and send the first cartridge into the chamber? Not?
  18. +3
    16 May 2022 21: 52
    From the memoirs of a veteran of the Soviet-Finnish war Boris Isakovich Pevzner.
    (Published in Soldier of Fortune 6-2006)

    "... excellent, the world's first real machine guns of the system of Major General Fedorov lie in abundance in the warehouses for conservation. They fired Japanese Arisaka rifle cartridges of 6,5 mm caliber. Just in the recent battle on the Khalkin-Gol River, our troops took the Japanese military warehouses, where these cartridges were unmeasured.To us, on the Karelian Isthmus, both Fedorov's assault rifles and cartridges for them were urgently delivered ...
    Our groups were enlarged, we began to go to the Finns for 6 people. Now we had machine guns, and the Finns had submachine guns. The Japanese rifle cartridge was much more powerful than the Finnish pistol cartridge. Fedorov's automata had greater accuracy and penetrating power. The Finns had a hard time...
    The firing group remained at the barbed wire, about fifty meters from the passage in the "thorn". She discovered the Finnish detachments of "hunters" and imposed a fight on them, distracting them from the strike group, and retreated last. Fedorov's machine guns in these forest battles showed undeniable advantages over the Suomi, easily breaking through with a windbreak and having much greater accuracy. If ours managed to find the "hunters" first, the success of the firefight was guaranteed ...
    Thus, we cleared the path for the infantry and "blinded" the Finnish artillery and mortar batteries, which lost the ability to hit us with precision. As always, our Fedorov assault rifles helped us out. They are indispensable in such a battle. .."
    1. 0
      17 May 2022 05: 58
      Quote: Slug_BDMP
      . They are indispensable in such a battle.

      And after that, if my memory serves me right, stirrings began again regarding the creation of a cartridge, which later received the name "intermediate" in the USSR ... Moreover, V. Fedorov himself participated in the development of the terms of reference .... But active preparations began in a future war and this the topic, like so many others, has moved into a very sluggish current phase .... But the captured MKb-42 (W) finally convinced of the need for such a cartridge (the Germans, so to speak, carried out some of the research work and provided, if I may say so, GAU results laughing ) ....
  19. +3
    17 May 2022 05: 16
    Mr. Shpakovsky, I don't recognize you in makeup! Did you praise something Russian? I'm shocked!
  20. 0
    6 June 2022 13: 07
    In principle, they could use the same 54R cartridges, but with a smaller amount of gunpowder ... but, apparently, this is a traditional ailment of the Army .. at random ...
  21. 0
    6 August 2022 14: 27
    Ah yes Shpakovsky .. I don’t quote further .. Well, finally .. an omnivorous master .. I saw all this in the Tula Museum of Weapons ...
  22. 0
    10 October 2022 19: 45
    Now the whole world is slowly coming to the original cartridge of Fedorov, but already as "6,8 Creedmoor" and some analogues. In general, we ran in different directions and realized that 5,6 is good in open spaces, but in the bushes and mountains you need a little more.
    Quote: kalibr
    True, one caliber

    If you ask what kind of education the Soviet commanders of that time had, it becomes sad and insulting. Kirponos has an anti-record - two classes. They thought that “defective rifle barrels would fit for pistols,” but they didn’t understand that the different channel geometry and different twist (rifling pitch) were.