How the Khazars created Russia

256

Horseman of the Khazar Khaganate from the Alans. Mid-ninth century Dmitrov arch. complex. Reconstruction by O. Fedorov

The theory of the Norman origin of Russia arose or was introduced into scientific circulation in the XNUMXth century. It appeared, one might say, simultaneously with the emergence of historical science in our country. After that, for a long time it became the most important issue that determined the emergence of the Old Russian state.

Of course, the “Norman” theme was also mentioned in such works as the Synopsis, but compilation works on historical topics before the XNUMXth century cannot be called fully scientific.



The works that laid the foundations of the "Norman theory" were "On the Varangians", "On the Origin of Russia" and "Geography of Russia and neighboring regions according to northern writers", all of them belonged to the pen of G.Z. Bayer, and the first was written by him in 1735. This theme was supported in 1745 by H. F. Miller. This is how the "Norman theory" or the theory of the influence of the Scandinavians on the emergence of the ancient Russian state arose.

At the beginning of the XNUMXth century, A.-L. Schlozer wrote the work "Nestor", so there was a "Norman trio": Bayer - Miller - Schlozer, which caused many jokes among students of historical universities.

The report of G. F. Miller in 1749 caused a storm of emotions on the part of M. V. Lomonosov, and 29 meetings of the Historical Assembly were devoted to the discussion of this theory. In these disputes, Lomonosov laid the foundations of the anti-Norman theory.

Both of them were based on the problem of the ethnos, which either influenced or created the Old Russian state. The dispute was, of course, at the level of knowledge possessed by scientists in the XNUMXth century, and science was only taking its first steps. M. V. Lomonosov, in the fight against Miller, argued that the Roxolans, Goths and Varangians were the Slavs who created Russia. But the author of the first scientific Russian history, V.N. Tatishchev, deduced the Varangians from the Finns, since they lived closer to the Slavs, but right across the sea.

History was just taking its first steps, and many theories, from a modern point of view, were phantasmagoric assumptions. Although, judging by modern “theories”, against the backdrop of a drop in the level of education, we again rolled back to the XNUMXth century, it is true that those who wrote their “studies” at that time possessed the entire arsenal of the scientific apparatus of their period, while the current “theorists” do not they know even half of what is prescribed for the XNUMXth century, not to mention the XNUMXst century, but they reason with the "scientific air of an expert."

And then the Khazars came


On the whole, historians of the XNUMXth century had no doubts that the Khazars somehow influenced the emergence of the Old Russian state, even Catherine II, who wrote on historical topics, thought so. She assumed that due to the fact that the Khazars were pressing on the Slavs in the south, they were forced to turn to the Varangians, as the chronicle also told us.

But the little-known today I. F. G. Evers, decided to look at this problem differently. J. F. G. Evers was a famous historian of the early 1825th century. He was an ardent opponent of the Norman theory of Miller, and especially Schlozer, believing that they were mistaken in attributing the creation of the Old Russian state to the Swedes. His work was published in XNUMX.

He proceeded from the fact that it was not the Varangians from across the sea who created the state for the Slavs, before the call, the Slavs already had their own state form of government:

The Russian state at Ilmen Lake was formed both in word and deed before Rurik's autocracy, with which, however, Schlozer begins Russian history.

The analytical method in science took its first steps, its roots were in the then fashionable "skepticism", therefore it was the norm to subject everything and everyone to absolute doubt. So the enemy of the "Normanists" Evers resolutely rejected the annals of Nestor. He wrote that he lived 250 years after the calling of the Varangians and could not know how the calling of the Varangians actually took place, and even more so that southern Russia could have been of Khazar origin.

Evers relied on English translations of Arabic sources from the XNUMXth century period. And they reported the following:

Khozra is close, on the banks of the Atel, there are the people of Bertasa, they are called Bertases, but in general the land is called Khazar, Russian and Servir.

The Russians are a numerous people of the Turks, the neighbors of the Slavs.

Through complex constructions, Evers explained who the Russians really were. The Russians, as he assumed, came from the Roxolans or Alans, non-scientific philology in the style of "Russians - Etruscans" did not originate in the XNUMXth century, but much earlier, she is still alive today, and Evers tried to work within its framework.

So, if the Roxolans are close to the Alans, and the Alans are related to the Khazars, then:

The primitive Russ were certainly Turkish and, probably, the Kozar tribe.

The Alans of the Black Sea and the North Caucasus were under the rule of the Khazars, their habitat is outlined by the Saltov-Mayak archaeological culture. But the Alans, like the Roxolans, are ethnic groups of Iranian origin, not Turkic, although, as archaeological finds testify to us, they gradually switched, at least in the steppes of the Black Sea region, to the Turkic language.


Image of a rider. Chalk. Mayak settlement. Voronezh region. GE. SPb. Author's photo

These Rus lived, according to Evers, under the Khazar, according to Eastern authors, or - Russian (Old Russian chronicles), Black Sea. This sea was called Russian, because the Russians lived on its coast. The Russians who lived in the south, along the shores of the Russian (Black) Sea, could not live in the north, on the shores of the Varangian Sea. Therefore, “to go beyond the sea” meant “to go” not for Lake Ladoga, but for the Sea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbAzov: the Slavs, calling on their first princes from Khazaria, could go beyond the seas ...

That is why, back in the XNUMXth century, Prince St. Vladimir was called a kagan, since the Russian princes of Khazar origin had the title of kagan.

And not “a gang of Swedes by A. L. Schlozer”, but Khazar Rus from the Crimea, whom the Byzantines [“Theophan’s successor”] called Tauro-Scythians, since they were from the Crimea, attacked Constantinople around 866. In connection with this campaign, the name of the Russians rose, and the Khazar name began to be mentioned less often, he writes:

From the news of the Byzantines, no one mentions the Khazars between 834-888, during which the foundation of the Russian state took place, and there was a campaign of Askold and Dir against Constantinople. Is it possible to assume the conjecture that these two incidents elevated the Russian tribe too much, and that the main mass of the people was shielded by it?

In the same way, I. F. G. Evers explains the term "Varangians", applicable to the Russians and Varangians. He wrote that the Khazars more than once served as mercenaries in Constantinople, where, being in the guard, they received the name of the Varangians. Many of them, having been baptized there, built the church of St. Elijah in Kyiv.

And he traces the names of the first Russian princes to the Turkic ones. But in the end, Evers points out that this hypothesis is just a guess. Like many of his predecessors, he, rejecting the Russian chronicle, nevertheless believed that the Ilmen Slavs, experiencing external pressure, went overseas for help, but not the northern, Varangian, but the southern, Sea of ​​Azov, and called on the Khazar Rus, who showed them an example of meek management of Kyiv and glades.


Axes. Saltovsky burial ground. Kharkov region. GIM. SPb. Author's photo

Rurik, moving north, deployed his forces in Ladoga - against the Scandinavian Normans, on Beloozero - against the Permians, in Izborsk - against the Summers. The Ugrians Askold and Dir, who accompanied him, served, like all Hungarians (Ugrians), the Khazars. They asked to go south and settled in Kyiv under the general rule of the Khazars.

That they are Ugric or Hungarian, he deduces from the following conclusions:

1. Nowhere in the annals is it said about their Russian origin.

2. Askold and Dir are buried on Ugrian mountain.

3. Oleg called himself a Ugric guest to attract Askold and Dir.

4. They, like the Ugrians, ruled in Kyiv under the rule of the Khazars for 17 years.

He wrote that Schlozer himself says that Oleg took Kyiv from the Khazars, so he thought that Askold and Dir were under the auspices of the Khazars. Who Oleg is, how he relates to the Rus-Khazars, it is not clear from his reasoning. Evers does not explain why the Rus-Khazars came north to the Slovenes, and then moved south to Kyiv against the Khazars. This was the extent of his observations.

Such a theory appeared at the beginning of the XNUMXth century. Today, few people know about it, except for historians. But, despite the source study and analytical weakness, it found its continuation in subsequent scientific works. And most importantly, it gave a powerful impetus to the development of the thesis about the anti-Northern origin of the Russian state. It is this hypothesis that owes its origin to the southern, later Slavic, theory of the origin of Russia.

Later, in the middle of the XIX century. historians who argued with the famous S. A. Gedeonov, who rejected the Scandinavian origin of Russia, most often did this with an eye on Evers.

In the end, the Black Sea Rus of Gedeonov is extremely close to the Rus of Evers, with the only difference that Gedeonov considered it Slavic, and Evers considered it Khazar.

The first steps of scientific thought in Russia


This was the period of formation of scientific thought. An important role in this was played by the so-called. "skeptical school", which studied historical sources in detail. But its head, M. T. Kachanovsky, supported Evers's theory, but with extreme caution and only during his lectures.

All this information environment made it possible to move on to new types of analysis, we must not forget that positivism was only in its infancy, and what seems ordinary to us today, for example, the notorious “common sense” or “logic”, only arose with the development of modern science, technology and society.

Without this understanding, the transition to a new stage in the development of mankind and Russian society in that period is impossible. In general, it can be described as a transition to a scientific approach, in the modern sense. What was implied by the emergence of analysis, as such, in particular, analytical translations of ancient texts. Of course, the level of translation of the sources of that period is significantly inferior to the modern one, but this was a major step for science.

It was at this time that more accurate translations of Arabic texts made by H. D. Fren appeared, where Slavs, Russ and Khazars were clearly distinguished. Thus, the theory of the "Khazar" origin of the Rus was dispelled, and its foundation - inaccurate and incorrect translations - was completely undermined.

This was an extremely important event in the historical world of Russia, when scientific translation and analysis of texts began, and other disciplines related to the study of the past were born: from chronology to archeology.

This instructive story shows all the current amateurs to put forward "historical hypotheses" in the style of the XNUMXth century, that without source analysis and knowledge of historiography, this will only be idle conjecture. Instructive here is the example of dangerous amateurs from history - "Chronologues". Who pass off their gag as “scientific” research, while being completely unfamiliar with the scientific tradition and those disputes around various historical dates, which are sometimes conducted by professionals for several centuries.

In relation to Russian history, for example, it can be noted that the dates of early ancient Russian history that we study at school are relative, since all historians know, from the beginning of the twentieth century, that the initial Russian chronicle, as established by the famous Russian historian A.A. .Chess, is undated.

And again the Khazars


But back to our Khazars. The Khazars have not disappeared from sight. Their influence on the history of the Slavs seemed too attractive.

I will not touch on all the ups and downs associated with the study of this ethnic group in the second half of the XNUMXth century, I will only pay attention to one most important factor. I always write about this in my articles: the thinking of ethnic groups and peoples is always directly connected with material culture and production relations.

This happened at the end of the 150th century, when the famous Russian historian V.O. Klyuchevsky, under the influence of the development of commercial and industrial capital in Russia, created his own “trade” theory of the emergence of Russia or the Old Russian state. His theory influenced a huge number of his followers and students. And if Klyuchevsky paid little attention to the "Khazar problem", then his contemporary V.I. Lamansky directly believed that the Slavs, leaving the tribal life, fell under the rule of the kaganate. The Khazars, who ruled the Slavs for XNUMX years, laid the foundations of the state system.


From Khazar finds. Drawing of a menorah (dipinto) on an amphora. XNUMXth century Kerch archaeological museum. Author's photo

He did not write anything about the ethnic composition of Russia, but V. A. Parkhomenko in a number of works from 1913 to 1925. comes to the conclusion that the Khazars took control over the southern tribes of the Eastern Slavs, who lived in the steppes, the field, hence the meadow.

And the international name for the glades was Rus. Khazar judges judged Russia. Rus served in the army of Khazaria. A huge number of Rus lived in the trade and political center of Khazaria - Itil.

Russia, which was part of the Khazaria, waged a long struggle for the Kyiv shopping center, which was controlled by the forest Slavs, the Drevlyans. But only Igor Stary was able to capture it, having killed the Drevlyansk princes Askold and Dir. Only after that did Kyiv become the Polyana capital. The campaign of Svyatoslav was caused not by the fact that the prince fought with an external enemy, but by a showdown in the kaganate, between his ethnic groups: the Rus-glades and the Khazars: the glades returned their lands. After Svyatoslav, his grandson Prince Mstislav appeared in the lands of the Kaganate.

Parkhomenko's theory about the influence of the Khazars on Russia and the Slavs was the last of its kind.
The confusion associated with incorrect translations of historical sources and erroneous analytics based on this, and, in fact, the incorrect use of sources, has led to hypotheses with a confusion of ethnic groups.

The "Khazar theory" was generated by the "Norman theory", rejecting the influence of the Varangians, it erected over the tribes of Eastern Europe - the power of the Khazars. Also important here was the patriotic feeling, which did not want to accept such a view of history. It forced many researchers to put forward dubious hypotheses, the fruits of mental constructions, and not scientific analysis, thereby rendering a disservice to science.

One has only to repeat, such hypotheses, which we remember, were associated with the period of the formation of positive scientific thought in the XNUMXth century, but such theories today can only be evidence of degradation.
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256 comments
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  1. +6
    April 26 2022 05: 04
    Thanks Edward!
    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.
    The influence of the Khazars on Russia, however, like many "Greeks" with "Varangians" is undoubted. Ahmad ibn Fadlan ibn al-Abbas ibn Rashid al-Baghdadi described the Rus within the Khazar Khaganate.
    Another question is bothering me. Is it true, as Eduard suggests, “Rus is the trade name of the glades?
    After all, the ancient authors left us conflicting information!
    Well, for starters, what trade name will the Poles have, which, in fact, are also a glade, but not Kyiv ones.
    1. +8
      April 26 2022 05: 38
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      “Rus is the trade name of the glades?

      And what beautiful names they had ..
      “We are from the Russian family - Karla, Inegeld, Farlaf, Veremud, Rulav, Gudy, Ruald, Karn, Frelav, Ruar, Aktevu, Truan, Lidul, Fost, Stemid - sent from Oleg, the Grand Duke of Russia, and from everyone who is under by his hand, - light and great princes, and his great boyars ... "
      1. +6
        April 26 2022 14: 33
        You have confused the sinful with the righteous. The worthy men you brought were from among the Varangian squad of Olegova, which is directly stated in the source. They had nothing to do with the meadows. About the names of the glades themselves, history is modestly silent.
        1. +2
          April 26 2022 16: 18
          Quote: Vikking1966
          The worthy men you brought were from among the Varangian squad of Olegova, which is directly stated in the source.

          These are those who were, as the LEADING STRUCTURE is now called, but you are right with Slavic names here and so far it does not smell. But they are also from the "Russian family". That is, this clan consisted not only of the Slavs
          1. -1
            April 28 2022 09: 31
            Quote: svp67
            You are right with Slavic names here and it doesn't smell yet.

            What Slavic names do you know?
            1. 0
              4 May 2022 16: 06
              Quote: AllXVahhaB
              Quote: svp67
              You are right with Slavic names here and it doesn't smell yet.

              What Slavic names do you know?

              A good third of the names on the list are of Celtic origin.
        2. 0
          4 May 2022 16: 05
          Quote: Vikking1966
          You have confused the sinful with the righteous. The worthy men you brought were from among the Varangian squad of Olegova, which is directly stated in the source. They had nothing to do with the meadows. About the names of the glades themselves, history is modestly silent.

          Yes, that's just this is the Russian Rod. Military Trade Corporation...
          1. 0
            5 May 2022 10: 41
            Did you finish Ukrainian school? Or the lessons of history skipped everything from the first to the last? Why write outright nonsense?
            1. 0
              5 May 2022 17: 14
              Nonsense? Take Igor's agreement with the Greeks and read, all questions about the Russian family and the military trade corporation will disappear.
      2. 0
        4 July 2022 20: 55
        Quote: svp67

        And what beautiful names they had ..
        “We are from the Russian family - Karla, Inegeld, Farlaf, Veremud, Rulav, Gudy, Ruald, Karn, Frelav, Ruar, Aktevu, Truan, Lidul, Fost, Stemid - sent from

        Are you hinting that these are not Russian names? Just quite even - Russians.
        And when Russia was baptized, what names did the priests begin to call babies at baptism? Jewish, yes Greek. Not?
        1. 0
          5 July 2022 09: 10
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Are you hinting that these are not Russian names?

          No, in this case, these are the most that you can’t eat RUSSIAN names, but not Slavic, but Scandinavian. Since it was these people at that time who were the ELITE of the emerging Russian people.
    2. +19
      April 26 2022 06: 27
      Vladislav good morning!
      YOU are the very first! good
      I will answer your question:
      Is it true, as Eduard suggests, “Rus is the trade name of the glades?

      I don't think anything of the sort is even close. laughing
      I talked about the theory, part of the "Khazar theory", how it was formed along with historical thought.
      Of course, this theory was all based on errors and mistranslations. For science, it is of no interest, except as monument of historiographic thought.
      My modest goal is to tell what theories were in the past. There will be more articles on this.
      They have nothing to do with my "assumptions", I am abstracted in history: there are no favorites laughing
      But, I repeat, these theories in the 18th or 19th century are one thing, THIS IS THE THEORY, of its level of development, similar in our days - THIS IS NON-FURTHER.

      Hope I answered.
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. +1
        April 27 2022 00: 47
        Thank you for your reply!
        Edward, I misunderstood.
        My opinion is that any research will be dynamic, but the first ones are always more likely to make a mistake!
        Sincerely, Vlad
    3. +3
      April 26 2022 07: 18
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Ahmad ibn Fadlan ibn al-Abbas ibn Rashid al-Baghdadi described the Rus within the Khazar Khaganate.

      And what could a person write in the 10th century based on the results of a journey from Central Asia to the banks of the Volga?
      As I understand it, on my way as an embassy to the Bulgars, the caravan, in which he was a part, bypassed the Khazars.
  2. +5
    April 26 2022 05: 34
    Hmm ... Directly, a revolution in history ... Turks, in the XNUMXth century !!!!, Askold is a Hungarian !!!!! So, moreover, under the Khazars ...
    Lord, why do you deprive people of reason ...
    1. +13
      April 26 2022 06: 33
      Sergey, what mind are you talking about?
      This is a story about the theory of the early 19th century, it is clearly stated: science was just taking its first steps!
      Although those who formed these erroneous theories were much better prepared for research work than modern amateurs.
      The point of the article is that SUCH THEORIES WAS. What is acceptable in the 19th century in science, when it took its first, in fact, steps, is not acceptable in the 21st century.
      hi
      1. +16
        April 26 2022 07: 00
        It seems that few people understood: the article is not about history, but about historiography.
        Thanks Edward!
        1. +9
          April 26 2022 07: 03
          Good morning Anton!
          Yes and yes.
          hi
          1. +1
            4 May 2022 16: 12
            Quote: Edward Vashchenko
            Good morning Anton!
            Yes and yes.
            hi

            Naturally, they didn’t understand, because when reading the article, a completely reasonable conclusion is made that this is also the author’s personal opinion ... in the light of the data that has been revealed, I apologize for the criticism.
        2. +9
          April 26 2022 07: 14
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          the article is not about history, but about historiography.

          In our country, non-specialists most often do not distinguish between these concepts! I remember what a revelation this difference was to me in 1972!
          1. +6
            April 26 2022 07: 18
            All this is strange, Vyacheslav Olegovich. Here I am - a non-specialist, but for some reason I clearly distinguish.
            1. +8
              April 26 2022 07: 34
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              Here I am - a non-specialist, but for some reason I clearly distinguish.

              You have long been a specialist, Anton. Nobody canceled self-education. I also did not serve in the tank troops and I will not start the tank. But ... since 1980 I have been reading everything that is possible on the history of BTT. And am I bad at it? So it is with you ... And there are those, and many, who just heard about something. The famous hero "with a learned look of a connoisseur kept silence." But he was a man of culture...
              1. +6
                April 26 2022 10: 23
                Quote: kalibr
                But ... since 1980 I have been reading everything that is possible on the history of BTT. And am I bad at it?

                Vyacheslav Olegovich, we recently remembered you at a personal meeting with St. Petersburg residents, and only positively. But, I remember the dispute regarding the OT-62 tank, which never really existed. smile
                1. +2
                  April 27 2022 12: 17
                  Quote: zyablik.olga
                  But, I remember the dispute regarding the OT-62 tank, which never really existed.

                  Dear Olga! Already wrote that I copied it from somewhere. I didn't come up with it myself. And I can’t physically check all the sources to the point. Someone has to be trusted. And it happens that in vain. But that's what comments are for, to correct inaccuracies.
                  1. +2
                    April 27 2022 18: 20
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Dear Olga! Already wrote that I copied it from somewhere. I didn't come up with it myself. And I can’t physically check all the sources to the point. Someone has to be trusted. And it happens that in vain. But that's what comments are for, to correct inaccuracies.

                    Dear Vyacheslav Olegovich!
                    Everyone can make a mistake or make an inaccuracy, but the ability to admit one's mistakes is important.
                  2. 0
                    18 May 2022 13: 19
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Someone has to be trusted. And it happens that in vain. But that's what comments are for, to correct inaccuracies.
                    This is from laziness or lack of time. Source study has not been canceled. I also sometimes use the competencies of forum participants in the same way. Thankfully they are.
            2. +8
              April 26 2022 08: 00
              Anton again, good morning!
              You are the specialist.
              Senya did not have the task of teaching someone the difference between historiography and source study.
              I simply stated the theory of past times, emphasizing that it corresponded to the development of scientific thought, not only in history, but everywhere.
              and concluded, I will not repeat.
              But for some reason they only read about "byaki beeches, how the earth endures us", and not about meanings)))
              Yours faithfully,
              Edward
              1. +8
                April 26 2022 10: 20
                Good morning everyone! I recently met Anton personally, but even from a short conversation combined with a feast, I learned that Anton is well enough informed for a "non-specialist" in terms of medieval history. As my husband said, - "everyone is best at what his soul lies in." This applies to Anton to the fullest. Well, apparently he's not a bad builder either. wink
                1. +3
                  April 26 2022 12: 24
                  Good afternoon, Olya! love
                  Glad to see you on History, hopefully now regularly.
                  And Anton’s Middle Ages is a strong point, as he once described himself: “I’m an early medieval scumbag,” and in this Middle Ages I’m not in the tooth with my foot, that’s why I don’t climb. request
                  Big hello to Sergey. smile
                  1. +8
                    April 26 2022 17: 35
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    Good afternoon, Olya!

                    Konstantin, hello! Thanks for the flower!

                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    Glad to see you on History, hopefully now regularly.

                    I'm not good at history. And frankly, there is not enough time for everything. This is on vacation in the Cultural Capital I can afford to read an interesting article (not my husband lol ), and write a couple of amateurish comments. Moreover, she took a laptop with her, and Serezhin's computer remained at home. By the way, he also bows to you.
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    And Anton’s Middle Ages is a strong point, as he once described himself: “I’m an early medieval scumbag,” and in this Middle Ages I’m not in the tooth with my foot, that’s why I don’t climb.

                    Anton advised us to visit the medieval castle in Vyborg and the Mon Repos park, for which we are very grateful to him.
                    1. +6
                      April 26 2022 17: 52
                      Anton advised to visit

                      "Nephew" will not advise bad. wink
                      1. +4
                        April 26 2022 18: 45
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        "Nephew" will not advise bad.

                        That's for sure. Thanks to him! And all the other St. Petersburg guys with whom we managed to meet are very interesting and pleasant to talk to.
                      2. +3
                        April 26 2022 18: 59
                        We are all friends, although we have never met, we call Anton back, he knows my Masha, by the way, Anton dragged me to "History". So join. smile
                      3. +3
                        April 26 2022 21: 28
                        Anton dragged me to the "History"
                        "It's not my fault! He came himself!" (WITH) )))
                      4. +2
                        April 26 2022 20: 49
                        This is thanks to you and Sergey, Olya !!! I call everyone, I call, but no one goes ... (((
                        You are the first of the comrades who reached us! And where!!!
                      5. +5
                        April 26 2022 21: 28
                        Anton, the stars have aligned! Under the current conditions, we would not go. It’s easier for Seryozha, he has free travel, and I had to take tickets at my own expense, besides non-refundable. Tickets were bought back in January, and since then a lot has changed a lot. In February, it became known that Seryozha's son from his first marriage would live with us, and we had to buy a 3-room stalin and do a major overhaul in it. Well, with my business due to price changes, everything is not so rosy. In general, there was no turning back. request
                      6. +3
                        April 26 2022 21: 37
                        Olya, I am extremely glad that "everything turned out this way"! Because it happened!!! I will reveal a terrible secret, my beloved Muscovites cannot reach me in any way ...
                      7. +3
                        April 26 2022 21: 40
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        I will reveal a terrible secret, my beloved Muscovites cannot reach me in any way ...

                        This is strange ... what From Moscow, an hour and a half flight or a night by train. We traveled more than a day to St. Petersburg. On the other hand, if the mountain does not go to Magomed ... Can you take the "Red Arrow" during your vacation?
                      8. +4
                        April 26 2022 22: 03
                        or a night on the train.
                        "Sapsan" goes about five hours. It's not about that. As I recently wrote to Sergey, I am an urbanist. And in any city I feel "like a fish in water." In the "millionaires" this is especially true. I visited Moscow in January 2018. How to fly to Mars, absolutely not my city! Although, until the age of fourteen he loved Moscow ....
                        In general: "damn this Moscow, with its "non-white nights", you never know what time of year it is in the yard" (C)
                      9. +3
                        April 26 2022 22: 12
                        absolutely not my city!

                        He is not mine, although he lived in it all his life. And now churkingrad. To hell, it's better in your own village.
                  2. +3
                    April 26 2022 19: 37
                    Damn, uncle, why "early medieval" ???
                    1. +3
                      April 26 2022 19: 41
                      Well, I'm sorry, I remember it so much, now I'll just call it "medieval".

                      How are you? Did the object pass? drinks
                      1. +2
                        April 26 2022 20: 43
                        We deliver tomorrow. After tomorrow we meet with Olga and Sergey. On the 29th they, alas, fly home.
                      2. +2
                        April 26 2022 21: 01
                        Good luck with your surrender. smile Will you celebrate? wink drinks
                      3. +3
                        April 26 2022 21: 18
                        What for? About 20 years ago, for me, the delivery of an object was like "marrying a daughter," and now it's a passing moment, "Klim died, and to hell with him." I've been in this shitty business too long to jump for joy. Moreover, this object is a long-term contract, I have been working for these customers for 9 years.
                      4. +2
                        April 26 2022 22: 15
                        Yes, I mean in the sense - "no matter how sick, but still died," now you can remember both without joy and without much sadness. drinks
              2. -2
                April 26 2022 11: 01
                Why would a normal person waste their time studying patently erroneous or outdated theories? Who is interested?
                Expanding or deepening your knowledge is one thing, but why delve into other people's mistakes and delusions?
                1. +2
                  April 26 2022 13: 36
                  Good afternoon,
                  so as not to open America again.
                  No one knows whether it is a mistake or not, whether it is an outdated theory, technology or not, until you do research and analysis.
                  And so in any business.
                  How do you know where a series of errors began that led to disaster or violations.
                  In all human life there is a "debriefing".

                  And when you understand this: an error or not, you need to fix it in order to prevent it in the future.
                  This is how management is arranged in human society absolutely everywhere, and for monkeys every time "in the first class", that's why it needs to be done.
                  Yours faithfully,
                  hi
                  1. 0
                    April 26 2022 13: 57
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    so as not to open America again.

                    You are confusing something. America is the truth, not subject to doubt or revision. It is open once and for all. This is not from the realm of theories and assumptions. It doesn't apply to technology either. Sorry, but your further incoherent maxims can only cause surprise
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    No one knows whether it is a mistake or not, whether it is an outdated theory, technology or not, until you do research and analysis.
                    And so in any business.
                    How do you know where a series of errors began that led to disaster or violations.
                    In all human life there is a "debriefing".

                    And when you understand this: an error or not, you need to fix it in order to prevent it in the future.
                    This is how management is arranged in human society absolutely everywhere, and for monkeys every time "in the first class", that's why it needs to be done.

                    What is this about?... What for?....
                    1. +3
                      April 26 2022 14: 04
                      [quote] so as not to open America again [/ quote]
                      This is a common expression, like
                      [quote] do not reinvent the wheel [/ quote]
                      But if you have not heard about analysis, conclusions, decision making, etc. I think it's pointless to explain to you.
                      [quote]What is this about?[/quote]
                      The fact that before making "profound" conclusions one must learn, so as not to be surprised. wink
            3. 0
              4 May 2022 16: 16
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              All this is strange, Vyacheslav Olegovich. Here I am - a non-specialist, but for some reason I clearly distinguish.

              And I distinguish, but from the article we can conclude that the author also adheres to this version ... and considering how much frank nonsense on a historical topic is now, it is not at all difficult to believe in it.
              1. 0
                4 May 2022 16: 20
                I didn’t quite understand what you mean, Alexey, please explain?
                1. 0
                  4 May 2022 16: 31
                  Yes, the fact that the author did not consider it necessary to note that he personally had no side to this theory, therefore, from reading the article, we can conclude that he is also a supporter of the "Khazar version"
                  1. 0
                    4 May 2022 16: 36
                    In my opinion, this is clear from the text of the article. By the way, the author is a candidate of historical sciences.
                    1. 0
                      4 May 2022 17: 38
                      It’s not clear to me ... and the fact that he is a candidate of historical sciences also does not guarantee against misconceptions. As someone who is interested in history, I also read professors of excellent specialists in their field, but when they undertook to talk about other sections of history, they began to talk such nonsense.
                      1. 0
                        4 May 2022 17: 43
                        Well, sorry ...
                        I have been reading Vashchenko since his appearance on the resource and I can assure you that his style of presenting the material has become much more accessible compared to the first publications.
                      2. 0
                        4 May 2022 19: 01
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Well, sorry ...
                        I have been reading Vashchenko since his appearance on the resource and I can assure you that his style of presenting the material has become much more accessible compared to the first publications.

                        Quite possibly, I haven't been here that long.
                      3. 0
                        4 May 2022 19: 13
                        This is not essential, I also sometimes read materials published long before my appearance on the resource. Try to read Vashchenko's articles written a couple of years ago, there is such an "academic clerk" !!! I "yelled with a good obscenity" so that Edward would write easier ...)))
                      4. +1
                        4 May 2022 19: 45
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        This is not essential, I also sometimes read materials published long before my appearance on the resource. Try to read Vashchenko's articles written a couple of years ago, there is such an "academic clerk" !!! I "yelled with a good obscenity" so that Edward would write easier ...)))

                        Thank you, I read ... in principle, the article is quite normal. And even somewhat interesting, because this option somehow passed me by, although the origin of Russia and its problems, thanks to A. G. Kuzmin, greatly interested me.
                      5. +1
                        4 May 2022 20: 02
                        This is not my "field" at all, my passion is the European Middle Ages.
                      6. +1
                        4 May 2022 20: 33
                        And what time? I prefer Dark Times and the Early Middle Ages. And as for the author, I read a few articles, I was not impressed. Here, according to the Mongols, yes, there is no doubt about it, he is strong and knows what he is writing about. And already about Russia and Russia so-so for a C grade. He apparently specializes in the Mongol Empire.
                      7. +1
                        4 May 2022 20: 47
                        1. I'm more of a High Middle Ages. But I will be happy to discuss the Wendel phenomenon.
                        2. He does not specialize in it. He signs the materials corresponding to his specialization "Ph.D. E. Vashchenko" Very correct, don't you think?
                      8. +1
                        5 May 2022 17: 09
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        more on High Middle Ages

                        I'm rather weak on high, but yes, Wendel is interesting. As for Vashchenko, I even got a little pissed off specifically on these articles signed by k. i. n. E. Vashchenko, I was slightly indignant at what he wrote there. Then he is apparently a supporter of terry Normanism, I can’t explain it in any other way
                      9. 0
                        5 May 2022 17: 15
                        supporter of terry Normanism,
                        Rather, "objective Normanism."
                      10. +1
                        5 May 2022 18: 00
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        supporter of terry Normanism,
                        Rather, "objective Normanism."

                        No, it's terry. Everything points to this, the city-states of Ancient Russia alone are worth something ... about the names of the treaties of Russia with the Greeks, I’ll keep quiet, for me this is a sore subject. laughing
                      11. 0
                        5 May 2022 18: 07
                        Okay, I honestly don't remember what it was about...
                        I propose to do so, under the next article by Vashchenko, you express your claims to him and read his answer. I think it would be more correct and honest, do you agree?
                      12. +1
                        5 May 2022 22: 10
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Okay, I honestly don't remember what it was about...
                        I propose to do so, under the next article by Vashchenko, you express your claims to him and read his answer. I think it would be more correct and honest, do you agree?

                        I'm always for!
                      13. +1
                        5 May 2022 22: 24
                        So that's great! I will make sure that the "old guard" (my comrades in the "workshop") do not smear you out of the blue with their authority.)))
                        In general, we have a good company, join us!
                      14. +1
                        6 May 2022 19: 32
                        It doesn't scare me... I've become a little more adept at fighting the Normanists and the Zen alternative.
                      15. 0
                        6 May 2022 19: 36
                        Local Normanists are very trained Normanists. By the way, I'm also a Normanist, if that doesn't make you sick.
                      16. +1
                        6 May 2022 20: 53
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Local Normanists are very trained Normanists. By the way, I'm also a Normanist, if that doesn't make you sick.

                        It doesn’t make me sick, but I am a supporter of Apollon Grigorievich Kuzmin. At one time I was a Normanist, as they taught at school ... as I accumulated knowledge, I switched to the Slavic side until I got acquainted with the works of Kuzmin. I like to argue with the Normanists. wink
                      17. +1
                        6 May 2022 21: 14
                        I like to argue with the Normanists.
                        Well, for God's sake!!!
        3. +5
          April 26 2022 08: 18
          Hope that's understandable. Another thing is that the conversation can go in different directions. Just because it caught my eye at the moment.
          1. +4
            April 26 2022 09: 29
            Good morning!
            I had to ask what historiography is.
            Historiography - in the narrow sense of the word, a set of studies in the field of history devoted to a specific topic or historical era (for example, the historiography of the Crusades era), or a set of historical works that have internal unity in ideological, linguistic or national terms (for example, Marxist, English-language or French historiography).

            Next.
            In a broader sense, historiography is a special historical discipline that studies the history of the historical sciences. Historiography tests the correct application of the scientific method in writing a historical work, focusing on the author, his sources, the separation of facts from interpretation, as well as style, author's biases and the audience for which he wrote this work in the field of history.

            That is, historiography is not an assessment of a dry set of facts, but of predilections. But a historiographer can also be biased! Historical research is based on a motive, an interest that prompted the author of a historical work to take up his pen. But the historiographer takes up his pen for the same reason. All are passionate. Yes, there is a convergence criterion for three papers.
            1. +8
              April 26 2022 10: 02
              Quote: depressant
              All are passionate.

              Only a corpse is impartial. But they don’t write articles on VO!
              1. +3
                April 26 2022 10: 46
                Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, for bringing a touch of humor into the conversation. For some time now, I have lost the desire for fun, without losing the ability to be biased.
                So who formed the Russian state? Or at least contributed to its formation? Probably all - both near and far. One can only estimate the contribution of each to this useful work. In this case, the contribution of the Khazars. But to assert that all this was done by the Khazars is probably to attribute excessive work to these people. Where do they have theirs? )))
                I believe that we should talk about the influence of the Khazars on the historical process of the formation of the Russian state, and not attribute the final result to them. The state of the Russians, fighting off a multitude of all sorts, was formed by the Russians. Out of necessity. To make it easier to fight back.
                1. +3
                  April 26 2022 11: 02
                  Quote: depressant
                  But to assert that all this was done by the Khazars is probably to attribute excessive work to these people.

                  I can not disagree with you, because they are unreasonable ... :waat:
                  1. +2
                    April 26 2022 11: 45
                    Well, what does it mean - unreasonable? Now, as far as I know, a different theory of the formation of states is beginning to dominate - on the basis of some idea, ideology. From this point of view, the Russians had an ideology - to protect the territory of their own origin, the Russian land. By any available means. The ideology of the Khazars, the Horde and various other Swedes is not so much to take away someone's territory as to rob it. And, having robbed, return home. The ideology of robbery has not stood and does not stand the test of historical time. The most valuable thing is the territory. The aggressor cannot take it with him. The Khazars simply made a mistake by choosing the wrong historical matrix - the robbery of strangers instead of creating their own state. People tend to err. Sometimes - peoples. "Various other Swedes" combined the ideology of protecting and nationalizing their territories with the robbery of others and survived. The Khazars were not politically flexible. Dissolved into history. Listen, even the Sumerians are still there, and I don't mean Ukrainians at all. But there are no Khazars. At least I haven't heard of one. laughing )))
                    1. +3
                      April 26 2022 11: 51
                      Quote: depressant
                      Well, what does it mean - unreasonable?

                      This is an allusion to a famous literary work :waat:
                      1. +1
                        April 26 2022 14: 15
                        Ah ... You are talking about the "unreasonable Khazars" ...
                        Well, yes, I didn’t turn on the memory - the past one, the RAM displaces everything ...
                        In fact, it became very difficult to comment on historical articles - deviations, you know, towards reality, and the past, as it were, disappeared. And at the word "Khazars" it already takes you dumbfounded - what is it?!? And then you remember - oh, the Khazars ... well, yes, the Khazars, those whom the prophetic Oleg was going to take revenge on ...
                        And there are also Pechenegs, and Scythians "with slanting and greedy eyes ..." Who is with slanting and greedy - we ??
                        Forced.
                        "We are darkness, and darkness, and darkness. Try, fight us!
                        Yes, we are Scythians! Yes, we are Asians, With slanting and greedy eyes! For you - centuries, for us - a single hour.
                        We, like obedient serfs, We held a shield between two hostile races.
                        Mongols and Europe! For centuries, centuries, your old forge forged.
                        And drowned out thunder, avalanches,
                        And a wild fairy tale was a failure for you
                        And Lisbon, and Messina!
                        You have been looking at the East for hundreds of years ... "(c)
                      2. +1
                        April 26 2022 15: 21
                        Excuse me, but the author in your quote was also "with slanted and greedy eyes"?)
                      3. +1
                        April 26 2022 15: 54
                        Once there was such a paradox of memory. It happens that people for some association remember incorrectly. That's how I remember that the poem belongs to Valery Bryusov. Because he is "with slanting and greedy eyes." In fact, the author of the poem is Blok, whose appearance is angelic.
                    2. +3
                      April 26 2022 11: 57
                      Quote: depressant
                      The ideology of robbery has not stood and does not stand the test of historical time.

                      All nomads will not agree with you! hi
                      Listen, even the Sumerians still exist

                      I haven’t heard about the Sumerians, but the Assyrians really still exist. hi
                      1. +3
                        April 26 2022 14: 34
                        You're right!)))))
                        Not Sumerians, Assyrians. They are even in the Crimea. That's how my thoughts flutter ... However, I'll take an interest later. Perhaps I was not mistaken.
                      2. +3
                        April 26 2022 14: 37
                        Quote: depressant
                        Not the Sumerians

                        Sumerians, not Sumerians, but a beer called "Sumerian" is sold in a nearby shop. I wonder why it's called that? you have to ask. Can the Sumerians cook it? drinks
                      3. +4
                        April 26 2022 14: 56
                        Are you serious? )))
                        Found. Sumerskoe beer is brewed in Kropotkin and Krasnodar.
                        Unique recipe. Light beer, from time immemorial. Pure soft taste with refined aroma. The saying of the ancient Sumerians says - "Do not know beer - do not know joy." Brewed in accordance with GOST 31711-2012 “Beer. General technical conditions»

                        The funny thing is that, according to the reviews of the ancient Sumerians themselves, left on clay tablets, it, beer, looked like intoxicated porridge)))
                      4. +5
                        April 26 2022 16: 11
                        Not Sumerians, Assyrians. They are even in the Crimea.

                        They are even in Moscow, in Soviet times all the shops for cleaning shoes and selling laces were under them. laughing
                        And in the Crimea, it seems to be Karaites.
                      5. +3
                        April 26 2022 16: 58
                        Kostya, who cleaned your shoes for you?
                        Sumerians, Assyrians or Karaites? )))
                        By the way, I studied with a Karaite girl from Crimea in a neighboring group.
                      6. +4
                        April 26 2022 17: 06
                        I cleaned my shoes myself, but I bought the cream from them. As for the Karaites, in Evpatoria, in the Karaite kenasse, I saw a stele on which Catherine's decree was engraved, which briefly sounded like this - "Karaims should not be considered Jews." smile

                        Only then, at the end of the seventies, all this splendor looked different, a small-time museum and nothing more.
                      7. +2
                        April 26 2022 17: 36
                        Strange ...
                        And I thought the Khazars were Jews)))
                        And the building is beautiful.
                      8. +5
                        April 26 2022 17: 43
                        Quote: depressant
                        And I thought the Jews were the Khazars

                        Karaites are either Jewish Khazars or obkhazed Jews: no one knows. hi
                      9. +3
                        April 26 2022 17: 50
                        so nobody knows. hi

                        Yes, they probably don't even know. wink
                      10. +2
                        April 26 2022 17: 59
                        That's where the expanse for the historiographer is - a gold mine! laughing )))
                      11. +7
                        April 26 2022 16: 36
                        Quote: depressant
                        They are even in the Crimea.

                        Once I rode in a taxi in Cyprus with an Assyrian driver. I found out that I know who the Assyrians are, about their culture and so on ... I cut the price by half! This is how knowledge makes life easier for us.
                      12. +4
                        April 26 2022 20: 15
                        Knowledge is power good
                      13. +1
                        4 May 2022 16: 48
                        Quote: Mihaylov
                        but the Assyrians really still exist

                        But even modern Assyrians do not include modern Assyrians-Arameans to those ancients, and the ancients were Akkadians and spoke the extinct Akkadian language, and according to anthropology, modern Assyrians are generally descendants of the local non-Semitic population - the Hurrians.
                    3. +1
                      4 May 2022 16: 25
                      Quote: depressant
                      The Khazars simply made a mistake by choosing the wrong historical matrix - robbing others instead of creating their own

                      Well, why, if the Khazars did not have their own state, they would not have withstood the onslaught of the Arab troops, and it was the Khazars who did not let the Arabs through the Caucasus as a wall. Svyatoslav just finished off the state, weakened by confrontation with the nomads from the east and the Arabs from the south. And then everyone levied tribute, even Russia from subject tribes. Which can also be called robbery.
                2. +1
                  4 May 2022 16: 19
                  Quote: depressant
                  Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, for bringing a touch of humor into the conversation. For some time now, I have lost the desire for fun, without losing the ability to be biased.
                  So who formed the Russian state? Or at least contributed to its formation? Probably all - both near and far. One can only estimate the contribution of each to this useful work. In this case, the contribution of the Khazars. But to assert that all this was done by the Khazars is probably to attribute excessive work to these people. Where do they have theirs? )))
                  I believe that we should talk about the influence of the Khazars on the historical process of the formation of the Russian state, and not attribute the final result to them. The state of the Russians, fighting off a multitude of all sorts, was formed by the Russians. Out of necessity. To make it easier to fight back.

                  I can suggest A. G. Kuzmin, he most widely tried to cover the problem of who Russia is. Unless, of course, you are familiar with his work.
              2. +1
                4 May 2022 16: 17
                Quote: kalibr
                Quote: depressant
                All are passionate.

                Only a corpse is impartial. But they don’t write articles on VO!

                Well said!
            2. +1
              April 26 2022 21: 35
              Hello, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!

              Like Rodari:

              "Without becoming addicted,
              I'll tell you guys
              About the lazy dynasty
              What once reigned "(c).
        4. +7
          April 26 2022 10: 35
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          the article is not about history, but about historiography

          Bravo, Anton. smile
          But in the end, the majority, it seems to me, managed to figure it out. Perhaps after your comment. smile
          1. +10
            April 26 2022 10: 53
            Michael, good morning! Yesterday we spent almost 3 hours at the Zoological Museum, among other things, admiring the fossils of your pet. The history of the Artillery Museum was repeated, but in reverse. Seryozha did not want to leave the Artillery, and after walking around the Zoological, he began to have dreary eyes. smile
            1. +6
              April 26 2022 11: 55
              Greetings, Olya.
              Yes, to each his own. In the knight's hall of the Hermitage I once wandered for three hours. smile
              1. +4
                April 26 2022 17: 28
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Greetings, Olya.
                Yes, to each his own. In the knight's hall of the Hermitage I once wandered for three hours. smile

                The Knights' Hall in the Hermitage is, of course, incomparable. We also stayed there for a long time. I especially liked the knight in black armor.
                But the Artillery Museum also has knights and individual armor. I dragged Seryozha away from stands with old pistols and museums. He gave me a lecture for half an hour on how a wheel lock differs from a flint impact lock. After all, without this knowledge in the museum, I would not have understood anything ... lol
      2. +2
        April 26 2022 17: 39
        It is interesting to hear your opinion about the origin of the Slavic tribes, for example, the Krivichi. And they belonged to the 5th-6th century, judging by the excavations of the Gnezdovsky barrows.
  3. +9
    April 26 2022 06: 06
    That's what kind of bad luck it turns out: Normans or not Normans - this question has nothing to do with the emergence of the state, to be honest. Because even if the ancient Novgorodians invited Rurik "with the court and the retinue to rule and all Volodya", they did not call him out of nowhere - they (the ancient Novgorodians) already had some kind of proto-state. Because it’s fucking hard to imagine wild Slovenians who were sitting for themselves, sitting in the forest, picking goats out of their noses, and then - oops! - one says to another: "Let's call someone to rule us and Volodya, he will stir up the state for us!" Well, the picture doesn't add up, does it? Yes, and Ancient Russia, in general, was a proto-state.
    So the Norman theory is about the origin of the Rurik dynasty, but not the Russian State. It was at the time of the emergence of the theory that the concepts of "state" and "ruling dynasty" were, if not identical, then very close, and then it was appropriate to talk about the "Norman theory of Russian statehood." But since then, the worldview has changed dramatically. Humans have learned to separate statehood from ruling houses. So, I think, the "Norman theory" should be considered from a somewhat different standpoint.
    1. +1
      April 26 2022 06: 14
      Thank you for your humorous response.
    2. +5
      April 26 2022 07: 13
      Quote: Dalny V
      this is about the origin of the Rurik dynasty, but not the Russian State.

      !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    3. +7
      April 26 2022 08: 28
      So the Norman theory is about the origin of the Rurik dynasty, but not the Russian State.
      Exactly! And how many copies are broken, especially on the pages of VO laughing
    4. +8
      April 26 2022 10: 33
      Quote: Dalny V
      the Norman theory is about the origin of the Rurik dynasty, but not the Russian State.

      For many years now, on the pages of VO, including, I have been trying to bring this idea to the general public. smile
      But with this message:
      Quote: Dalny V
      Normans or not Normans - this question has nothing to do with the emergence of the state,

      one can hardly agree. The presence of the Scandinavians on the territory of the Upper Volga, Dvina, Dnieper and Volkhov regions, of course, influenced the emergence of the state, as did the presence of the Khazars in the same Volga and Dnieper regions. The only question is the extent of this influence.
    5. 0
      4 May 2022 16: 56
      Quote: Dalny V
      let's call someone to rule us and Volodya, he will stir up the state for us! "Well, not

      In general, do not rule and own. And "... but to judge and rule .. because along with there is no (order) in the same way, and subsequently, the Novgorod princes were invited. As an arbitration force not directly connected with city groups and clans. But as they called, they drove them away. True to this Rurik number didn't work.
  4. +3
    April 26 2022 06: 11
    Thank God that we live in a time when there is DNA genius. As did not lead our predecessors. They had to guess on the coffee grounds, subjectively misinterpreting the available, mean, sources. At least today it is clear that Russia, as such, has always conditionally existed in one form or another, and past peoples (ethnic groups), such as the Khazars, Normans, Baltics, etc. assimilated, or created sepatist enclaves (state formations), relatively temporary or long enough. What actually We observe today, on the example of Ukraine. The historical vacuum around state formations on the territory of Ukraine, with the exception of the transfer of the capital of Russia to Kyiv, is a witness to this.
    1. 0
      4 May 2022 16: 58
      Quote from Eugene Zaboy
      Thank God that we live in a time when there is DNA genius. As did not lead our predecessors. They had to guess on the coffee grounds, subjectively misinterpreting the available, mean, sources. At least today it is clear that Russia, as such, has always conditionally existed in one form or another, and past peoples (ethnic groups), such as the Khazars, Normans, Baltics, etc. assimilated, or created sepatist enclaves (state formations), relatively temporary or long enough. What actually We observe today, on the example of Ukraine. The historical vacuum around state formations on the territory of Ukraine, with the exception of the transfer of the capital of Russia to Kyiv, is a witness to this.

      DNA genealogy do you mean Klyosov? So I'll ask you what does a specialist in polymers and pharmaceuticals have to do with genetics?
      1. +1
        16 May 2022 09: 55
        You better refute something from his lectures. So far, all his words are consistently confirmed. The question is not who you are, but what you have done useful. He put everything on the shelves and so far no one is able to refute it.
        1. -1
          16 May 2022 12: 17
          Quote from Eugene Zaboy
          You better refute something from his lectures. So far, all his words are consistently confirmed. The question is not who you are, but what you have done useful. He put everything on the shelves and so far no one is able to refute it.

          Are you unable to answer the question? So I repeat... What do polymers and pharmaceuticals have in common with genetics? And it will be a lot of honor for him to refute it. Calculations in the publications "Human Genetics", "Journal of Human Genetics" are quite enough for me ... To pay attention to the next adventurer from science. And the fact that no one is able to refute and no one is going to refute the written nonsense.
          1. +1
            17 May 2022 03: 30
            Klesov - "an adventurer from science"? Strongly said, but is it justified?
            Anatoly Klesov — Doctor of Chemistry, professor, specialist in biochemistry, DNA genealogy, polymer composite materials, enzymatic catalysis, biomedicine, drug development in the field of cancer, fibrosis and other inflammatory pathologies. During the Soviet era, he was a professor at Moscow State University, a professor at the USSR Academy of Sciences, head of a laboratory at the Institute of Biochemistry. Bach Academy of Sciences of the USSR, UN consultant on biotechnology, laureate of the Lenin Komsomol Prize and the USSR State Prize for Science and Technology.

            Since 1974 he has been working in the USA, since 1990 - constantly, for 12 years - Professor of Biochemistry at Harvard University (Center for Biochemistry, Biophysics and Medicine), Member of the World Academy of Sciences and Arts (founded by Albert Einstein) since 1987, Academician of the National Academy Sciences of Georgia. Author of more than 30 books in Russian and English. Is the Hirsch index equal to 24? Quite a more than serious scientist. By the way, Klesov never called himself a geneticist. Man has created for geneticists, historians and archaeologists a mechanism that allows them to trace the pedigree of an individual to a depth of 60 thousand years with mathematical accuracy. Many will not like this, because the possibility of falsifying history disappears, but we need the truth about our origin, not lies. Thanks to the work of Klesov, history will have to be rewritten, and this work is already universally dressed despite violent opposition.
            1. -1
              17 May 2022 11: 21
              Firstly, Klyosov is not a professor, let alone Harvard. The second such science as DNA genealogy does not exist because it was completely invented by Klyosov himself. Thirdly, a specialist in the field of Polymer Composite Materials, Biomedicine and Enzymatic Catalysis, Doctor of Medical Sciences and a foreign member of the Georgian Academy of Sciences in the specialty "Biochemistry" ... Before writing anything, I advise you to check the information ... At Harvard, he was only invited in his own way direct specialty ... let alone count publications and publications ... it’s not even far from him to be Fomenko and Nosovsky with their “New Chronology” ... so there is something to strive for especially if you sit down that some of the publications he did in his own journal and part in the Chinese "Successes of Anthropology" in which they do not check what they publish, just to pay ...
              1. 0
                17 May 2022 12: 27
                Professor - this is the position in which he worked at Moscow State University and 10 years at Harvard. So he is a professor, albeit a former one. By the way, such sciences as history, chemistry and physics also did not always exist, but today they are all recognized for some reason. Klesov is the creator of the mathematical apparatus (method) that allows the historian, archaeologists, etc. trace the pedigree of an individual for 60 thousand years with high accuracy. The technique is constantly being improved, and this is science. We know a great many such narrow sciences, and Klesov is not the first creator of new areas of scientific knowledge. Few scientists in the world have achieved the practical implementation of their scientific work, unlike Klesov. Russia would have at least a few dozen of them, but he works in the USA.
                1. 0
                  17 May 2022 16: 56
                  Everything is clear with you DNA genealogy is your religion and Klesov is her prophet...another sectarian.
                  1. 0
                    18 May 2022 01: 52
                    When arguments end, insults begin. Is that all you are capable of? By insulting famous people you won’t earn fame and you won’t create anything sensible, because you don’t think about work, but about how to insult others harder.
                    1. 0
                      18 May 2022 12: 46
                      Oh how! And where did you find the insult?
                      1. 0
                        19 May 2022 06: 02
                        "To pay attention to the next adventurer from science. And the fact that no one is able to refute, and no one is going to refute the nonsense written." I am quoting your words. For you, this may be normal, but for me it is an insult to a person without evidence. The same applies to the period of Klesov's work at Harvard. A visiting scientist or a university-trained one working as a professor, for me a professor, former or present, depending on the situation. Moreover, the invitation of a Russian specialist to Harvard for me raises the status of this specialist, because they invite those without whom they cannot solve certain problems, i.e. the best, not the worst. For you, this is a reproach towards Klesov. What did he do wrong to you?
                      2. 0
                        19 May 2022 07: 06
                        Oh how! If the one who occupies a professorship for you becomes an automatic machine. That does not mean that everyone else should also consider. I am writing again if I did not understand the first time. I am not against Klyosov the chemist. I am against Klyosov the adventurer and his amateurish DNA genealogy ... by the way, take the trouble to find out on what topics he lectured at Harvard. And once again I ask stubborn - what do polymers and pharmaceuticals have in common with genealogy and genetics?
                      3. 0
                        19 May 2022 11: 04
                        Well, you are a bureaucrat, however. OK. What do: Ivan Pavlovich Alimarin (1903-1989), Israel Moiseevich Gelfand (1913-2009), Viktor Stepanovich Grebennikov (1927-2001), Yakov Borisovich Zeldovich (1914-1987), Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov (1919-2013) have in common with science , Boris Vasilievich Kukarkin (1909-1977), Vladimir Andreevich Nikonov (1904-1988), etc., can be listed for a long time. After all, they did not even receive a basic education, but they achieved a lot and are generally recognized. Or are they special and somehow different from Klesov? A worker of science is not so much education as brains. They either exist or they don't.
                      4. 0
                        19 May 2022 14: 51
                        Did they give themselves scientific titles? It is extremely inappropriate to compare these outstanding people who have brought great benefits to the country and the businessman Klyosov.
                      5. 0
                        20 May 2022 04: 53
                        Klesov did not falsify anything, there is no need to dissuade him, or provide evidence. What do you think, Jewish organizations and foundations will involve a scientist in the work, and even award him awards without verification. Naive.
            2. -1
              17 May 2022 11: 23
              And yes ... for the third time I ask what polymers and pharmaceuticals have in common with genealogy.
              1. 0
                17 May 2022 12: 32
                You will find out for which Harvard paid him a lot of money. They needed a chemist with knowledge of mathematical modeling and analysis, and he decided something that no one else could handle. Therefore, all over the world today they are doing DNA tests for paternity and family ties, thanks to Klesov.
                1. 0
                  17 May 2022 16: 59
                  At least you asked what DNA genealogy is and what it does ... so as not to write such nonsense.
                  1. 0
                    18 May 2022 01: 57
                    Are you really so naive that you admit that Klesov of Harvard paid substantial money for 10 years for nonsense? This nonsense costs money and a lot of it. Americans can and are able to monetize the developments of scientists and allow scientists to live comfortably on the income from their developments. This is their advantage, whatever one may say, but unfortunately we are lagging behind here.
                    1. 0
                      18 May 2022 12: 51
                      That's exactly what the Americans will not pay for a dummy ... and Klesov lectured at Harvard not on the Nuki he invented, but on his immediate profession ... as I said yesterday, you, as a sectarian, are one solid faith with minimal knowledge of both Klyosov and and the science he invented. A typical sect-faith is and is enough.
                      1. 0
                        18 May 2022 15: 44
                        How did Klesov cross the road for you if you deprive him of both his titles and his past? Some kind of obscurantism. A person has a biography, merits, awards, and you write him down as a falsifier without evidence. Strange behavior.
                      2. 0
                        18 May 2022 16: 15
                        Quote from Eugene Zaboy
                        How did Klesov cross the road for you if you deprive him of both his titles and his past? Some kind of obscurantism. A person has a biography, merits, awards, and you write him down as a falsifier without evidence. Strange behavior.

                        He has merits and no one deprives him of awards ... but there are real merits and awards, like the title of Doctor of Chemical Sciences, but there are fictitious ones ...
                      3. 0
                        19 May 2022 06: 09
                        You can state your claims against Klesov in more detail, without further ado. In what is he wrong and what did he falsify so that We would not pour from empty to empty? Klesov openly declares, I do not quote verbatim: There are questions, we invite you to science (that is, he is ready to discuss and debate on any controversial issues related to his work.). Just to say that he is wrong in something, somewhere, I think it is unacceptable. Any questions, claims, evidence please on the table. If you are a historian, then Klesov gives you the most accurate tool that allows you to verify your conclusions. If you don't like the results, don't blame the tool here, and even more so, its creator is not to blame. It has become easier and more difficult for historians and archaeologists to interpret the results of research, but the results are definitely becoming more accurate and objective, and this is certainly good. The technique requires constant improvement, but this applies to any new developments. Another question is that it provides the highest, previously unattainable accuracy, which allows historians and archaeologists not to fantasize, but to state the transformation of people's cultures from generation to generation over the millennia, taking into account migration routes.
                      4. 0
                        19 May 2022 14: 48
                        DNA-GENEALOGY - PROFANATION!!! Now it's over? I think I've posted this here many times.
                      5. +1
                        20 May 2022 04: 35
                        If Klesov proposed to highlight the direction of scientific research related to the study of the genealogy of mankind, this is not a "profanity", but a completely reasonable proposal, which may be accepted, in the end, by the scientific community. By the way, Klesov carried out his work related to human DNA within the framework of scientific programs, using grants allocated by US funds, i.e. was not self-employed. The programs were funded by US funds, including Jewish ones, and the results were carefully checked and controlled. Where did you find the catch here is unclear. He did not come up with the classification of haplogroups, but the genetics of the United States and Israel. Then, when they created it (the classification of haplogroups), no one could have imagined that the sample found on the territory of Russia and received the letter R (Russian), about 60 thousand years old, would be the ancestor of not only Russian R1a, but also Western Europeans R1b, and haplogroup J (Jewish) will turn out to be not so much a haplogroup of Jews, but will be concentrated on the territory of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, which is quite far from the ancestral home of the Jews and casts doubt on the belonging of Jews to this haplogroup as an ancestor. There are more questions than answers, but this is the whole science.
                        Yes, today this is exactly what many do not like, but this is a historical truth, or a fact from which history is made up. Actually, it is these facts that Klesov interprets. Maybe sometimes a little emotionally, but without deviating from scientific ethics, i.e. does not falsify facts, and this is the main thing. He does not try to embellish or downplay anything, he simply operates with facts and draws conclusions based on the current state of scientific research in this area. That's probably why you attack him. You probably do not agree with the past that was revealed to you with the help of Klesov. But then excuse me, the truth is not offended. I observe how some Western geneticists today are trying to promote impersonal methods of human genetic analysis based on a complete DNA scan and offer a ratio of the proportions of different peoples contained in you as a percentage, but this has nothing to do with the pedigree and characterizes only a specific individual. So the work of Klesov as part of the Harvard team will remain in demand and there is no escape without them if we want to understand how, where and when man originated and how he mastered the planet. That is what matters!
                      6. 0
                        20 May 2022 07: 09
                        Quote from Eugene Zaboy
                        If Klesov proposed to highlight the direction of scientific research related to the study of the genealogy of mankind, this is not a "profanity", but a completely reasonable proposal, which may be accepted, in the end, by the scientific community. By the way, Klesov carried out his work related to human DNA within the framework of scientific programs, using grants allocated by US funds, i.e. was not self-employed. The programs were funded by US funds, including Jewish ones, and the results were carefully checked and controlled. Where did you find the catch here is unclear. He did not come up with the classification of haplogroups, but the genetics of the United States and Israel. Then, when they created it (the classification of haplogroups), no one could have imagined that the sample found on the territory of Russia and received the letter R (Russian), about 60 thousand years old, would be the ancestor of not only Russian R1a, but also Western Europeans R1b, and haplogroup J (Jewish) will turn out to be not so much a haplogroup of Jews, but will be concentrated on the territory of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, which is quite far from the ancestral home of the Jews and casts doubt on the belonging of Jews to this haplogroup as an ancestor. There are more questions than answers, but this is the whole science.
                        Yes, today this is exactly what many do not like, but this is a historical truth, or a fact from which history is made up. Actually, it is these facts that Klesov interprets. Maybe sometimes a little emotionally, but without deviating from scientific ethics, i.e. does not falsify facts, and this is the main thing. He does not try to embellish or downplay anything, he simply operates with facts and draws conclusions based on the current state of scientific research in this area. That's probably why you attack him. You probably do not agree with the past that was revealed to you with the help of Klesov. But then excuse me, the truth is not offended. I observe how some Western geneticists today are trying to promote impersonal methods of human genetic analysis based on a complete DNA scan and offer a ratio of the proportions of different peoples contained in you as a percentage, but this has nothing to do with the pedigree and characterizes only a specific individual. So the work of Klesov as part of the Harvard team will remain in demand and there is no escape without them if we want to understand how, where and when man originated and how he mastered the planet. That is what matters!

                        And you are aware that both the so-called "Veles book" and Khinevich's "Slavic-Aryanism" are from America's projects ... so it would only alert me to such an active promotion of new ideas by the States. And to understand how and what how a person developed, normal serious research is enough without Klesovshchina. And I will also wait for your answer or not to a simple and clear question: what do polymers and pharmaceuticals have in common with genetics and genealogy? Or will you continue to ignore it stubbornly?
                      7. 0
                        20 May 2022 07: 36
                        And you are aware that both the so-called "Veles book" and Khinevich's "Slavic-Aryanism" are from America's projects ... so it would only alert me to such an active promotion of new ideas by the States.

                        American scientists and politicians are people of different worldviews, there is no need to dirty American science with politics. American science also does not trust Soros.
                      8. -1
                        20 May 2022 15: 25
                        Quote: Konnick
                        And you are aware that both the so-called "Veles book" and Khinevich's "Slavic-Aryanism" are from America's projects ... so it would only alert me to such an active promotion of new ideas by the States.

                        American scientists and politicians are people of different worldviews, there is no need to dirty American science with politics. American science also does not trust Soros.

                        And what about Soros? Moreover, DNA genealogy has nothing to do with science.
                      9. +1
                        20 May 2022 10: 53
                        The question is not who and what ideas proposes and promotes, but how much these ideas reflect reality, i.e. are fair. Regarding polymers, etc., Klesov used the mathematical apparatus for DNA analysis that he had developed for, conditionally, polymers, which ideally fit with minimal modifications. This was precisely why Harvard invited him and what the Americans could not do on their own, simply because they had poor mathematical training, at least in the team where Klesov worked. That's why he was in demand, that's why everything worked out, and that's why we know about Klesov and his works. If this mathematical apparatus had not resulted in software, all these developments of Harvard would have remained on paper, at best in the form of articles and dissertations.
                      10. -1
                        20 May 2022 15: 18
                        Everything is clear ... I can’t wait for an answer to the question posed ... nothing but blind admiration for the “genius” of Klyosov. Yes, and before the States, too.
                      11. +1
                        21 May 2022 08: 17
                        You got the answer, you should read carefully. As for the proposal to the states. Science has no boundaries. She either exists or she doesn't. Communists, fascists, obscurantists tried to politicize science in the Middle Ages, but this did not lead to anything good. So I am for science without borders and restrictions, otherwise We will return to the primitive state.
                      12. -1
                        21 May 2022 19: 29
                        Quote from Eugene Zaboy
                        You got the answer, you should read carefully. As for the proposal to the states. Science has no boundaries. She either exists or she doesn't. Communists, fascists, obscurantists tried to politicize science in the Middle Ages, but this did not lead to anything good. So I am for science without borders and restrictions, otherwise We will return to the primitive state.

                        All your lengthy answers are full of reverence for Klesov, in principle, about nothing. He invented a new technology and so on... etc... I asked you what is common between pharmaceuticals and polymers on the one hand and genetics on the other hand. Quite a simple and understandable question. As for the politicization of science... science has always been politicized and only the naive can fail to see this. And yes... tell that to Europeans and North Americans. That they turned off Russian science from their community. Who do you think they are, enlightened humanists?
                      13. +1
                        22 May 2022 06: 15
                        I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason to keep talking about anything.
                      14. -1
                        22 May 2022 14: 59
                        Yes ... when there is no answer to a question, it's easier than ever to slip away.
  5. +3
    April 26 2022 06: 16
    Khozra is close, on the banks of the Atel, there are the people of Bertasa, they are called Bertases, but in general the land is called Khazar, Russian and Servir.

    Burtases, another mysterious people of the right bank of the Volga.

    "The language of the Bulgars is similar to the language of the Khazars; the Burtases have a different language, and the language of the Rus is different from the language of the Khazars and Burtases"
    .Ibn-Khaukal approx. 976-977 years (Tales of Muslim writers about the Slavs and Russians. St. Petersburg, 1870)

    By the way, about the Turkic influence, there are so-called Chuvash-Mordovian-Turkmen language correspondences.
    And the surname Burtasov is still found, I have a friend with such a surname, although the Burtas River, a tributary of the Tsna, which in turn flows into Moksha, may have influenced. But these are the places of residence of the Burtases.
    1. +2
      April 26 2022 06: 52
      Chuvash-Mordovian-Turkmen language correspondences

      The Mordovian languages ​​- Erzya and Moksha - have nothing to do with the Turkic languages ​​...
      1. +4
        April 26 2022 07: 12
        The Mordovian languages ​​- Erzya and Moksha - have nothing to do with the Turkic languages ​​...

        Thanks, Cap. I wrote about connections, not kinship.
    2. 0
      4 May 2022 16: 59
      Quote: Konnick
      Khozra is close, on the banks of the Atel, there are the people of Bertasa, they are called Bertases, but in general the land is called Khazar, Russian and Servir.

      Burtases, another mysterious people of the right bank of the Volga.

      "The language of the Bulgars is similar to the language of the Khazars; the Burtases have a different language, and the language of the Rus is different from the language of the Khazars and Burtases"
      .Ibn-Khaukal approx. 976-977 years (Tales of Muslim writers about the Slavs and Russians. St. Petersburg, 1870)

      By the way, about the Turkic influence, there are so-called Chuvash-Mordovian-Turkmen language correspondences.
      And the surname Burtasov is still found, I have a friend with such a surname, although the Burtas River, a tributary of the Tsna, which in turn flows into Moksha, may have influenced. But these are the places of residence of the Burtases.

      The Burtases most likely, like the Chuvashs, had a Finno-Ugric origin.
      1. 0
        4 May 2022 18: 01
        Burtases most likely, like the Chuvashs, had a Finno-Ugric origin

        The Chuvash have always been of Turkic origin, one of the three tribes of the Bulgars.
        1. 0
          4 May 2022 19: 03
          Quote: Konnick
          Burtases most likely, like the Chuvashs, had a Finno-Ugric origin

          The Chuvash have always been of Turkic origin, one of the three tribes of the Bulgars.

          Nothing like this. Chuvashs and Finno-Ugrians who switched to the Bulgar language.
          1. 0
            4 May 2022 19: 21
            Chuvashs and Finno-Ugrians who switched to the Bulgar language.

            Have you seen Chuvash? And the Mordovian-Erzya closest to them? Completely different anthropology. Here you have a Mordovian surname, not Chuvash, where everyone is Ivanov, Nikolaev ... Read about Khan Kotrag, the son of Kubrat. Almost all Chuvashs are brunettes, like modern Bulgarians, and Erzyas are fair-haired. Well, you come from the most Burtaic places.
            1. 0
              4 May 2022 19: 49
              And what does Erzya have to do with it if we are talking about the Mari? And as for whether I saw the Chuvash ... if you consider that my father is a Chuvash and was born in a Chuvash village, then it is quite possible to assume that I saw and heard. winked
  6. +2
    April 26 2022 06: 31
    Good morning. Edward, I would venture to suggest that your theory will cause a storm of emotions.
    I'm more of a "Normanist", but I promise to carefully consider your arguments. They have "Rationally Grain"
    To enter into an argument to prove SOMETHING I will not - there is no time, but I need to think
    1. +7
      April 26 2022 06: 37
      Good morning Katerina!
      THIS IS NOT MY THEORY!!!!
      This is a 19th century theory, from the past! It's about the ways of the mind)))
      I wrote the conclusion at the end:
      One has only to repeat, such hypotheses, which we remember, were associated with the period of the formation of positive scientific thought in the XNUMXth century, but such theories today can only be evidence of degradation.

      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
  7. +7
    April 26 2022 06: 33
    Here the guarantor spoke out against the Norman version, probably now some kind of alternative will be in favor. No wonder they say that we have a country with an unpredictable past. sad
    1. +10
      April 26 2022 11: 27
      "Guarantor" did not say anything particularly outstanding. To begin with, he noted that he was not a specialist in the field of history, and later he reasoned like an ordinary sane person, but spoke at the same time rather cautiously, in the style of "there are theories that ..."
      And the meaning of his statements is consistent with the content of the "Norman theory" in its modern form, in any case, its main provisions.
      Could Rurik be a Slav on his mother's side? Easy. But to prove or disprove this thesis now, in any case, it is impossible. But it is quite obvious that he bore a Scandinavian name and was a carrier of Scandinavian genes.
      The fact that he did not come to an empty place is also understandable and obvious, no one denies this.
      The question of when exactly the Old Russian state arose is generally discussed in the widest range - from the beginning of the XNUMXth century. right up to the end of the XIV ... This is me about serious scientific discussions, and not about the fantasies of various clowns such as Petukhov, Fomenko, Chudinov and others.
      And headlines on the Internet like "Putin smashed the Norman theory" are for amateurs by amateurs, and written by amateurs.
      1. 0
        4 May 2022 17: 04
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        But it is quite obvious that he bore a Scandinavian name and was a carrier of Scandinavian genes.

        Nothing like Rurik/Rurik/Rorik is a typical Celtic name where Rik means ruler, king. And the Ro / Ru component is often found in the Celtic name-book.
  8. +3
    April 26 2022 06: 47
    In historiography, the Khazars are understood as a union of tribes, headed by the Khazars, in fact. And in the union there were Slavs, Finno-Ugric peoples, Turks, Scopho-Alano-Sarmatians and much more. The core of the Khazars professed Judaism, others - Christianity and Islam. Khazaria - a semi-nomadic state - the Kingdom of Tents.

    How could they teach statehood to others if they did not have a state, in our understanding of it? Nomads who returned to their tents for the winter...
    1. 0
      April 27 2022 22: 50
      Quote: Luminman
      And in the union there were Slavs, Finno-Ugric peoples, Turks, Scopho-Alano-Sarmatians and much more. The core of the Khazars professed Judaism, others - Christianity and Islam. Khazaria - a semi-nomadic state - the Kingdom of Tents.

      There is a historian Elena Galkina. In her opinion, there was a separate state between the Oka, the Dnieper and the Don, which Arab historians called the Russian Kaganate. Kagan is an emperor, which means there is a possibility that it was a strong and powerful state. Excavations on this land say that at the end of the 1st millennium a people close to Iranian culture lived there. Galkina defends the theory that this state perished in the wars with the Hungarians and the Khazars, and the military elite of the Russian Kaganate withdrew to the lands of the Slavs, where it became the core of Kievan Rus and organized the Slavs to fight for their independence from the Khazars. In Russia, Pletneva is considered a very popular specialist and many people trust her works on the history of Khazaria, and for many her books are the first sources written and informative and accessible and bright. Perhaps, as a historian of Khazaria, she was too enthusiastic about the people of her study. Indeed, for many Russians, the Varyag sank a Japanese ship in a battle with the Japanese, and seriously damaged two. In Egyptian history, it is believed that the Egyptians, when fired upon by British ironclads, were able to sink a British ship and seriously damage it. Turkish history, unlike Russian, pays attention not to the surrender of Izmail to Suvorov, but to his capture by the Turks in that war. A written source about the borders of Khazaria is the correspondence of a Spanish Jew, which exists in two copies and for some time was questioned as belonging to fakes (a particularly lengthy version of Joseph's letter was found by the Karaite historian Abram Firkovich). This version of the letter directly indicates the western point of the Khazar border, Sarkel, on the banks of the Don. Although one can be considered an anti-Semite, reducing the borders of Khazaria to those indicated by Joseph in the lengthy edition of his letter and not classifying the Donbass and the Dnieper region as the possessions of Khazaria. By the way, in his latest research, Heyerdahl tried to prove that Odin was a historical figure who led the Viking migration from the Sea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbAzov to Scandinavia.
      1. 0
        April 28 2022 01: 49
        Excavations on this land say that at the end of the 1st millennium a people close to Iranian culture lived there.

        Scythian-Sarmato-Alans...
        1. 0
          April 28 2022 04: 12
          Quote: Luminman
          Excavations on this land say that at the end of the 1st millennium a people close to Iranian culture lived there.

          Scythian-Sarmato-Alans...

          The Alans-Rus lived peacefully with the Slavs and were mortally at enmity with the Khazars. But this is one of the theories. It seems that there are about 8 theories about the origin of the Russian state. Based on the graves 1000 years later, it is difficult to reliably restore the true history. There are different opinions even about the activities of A. Politkovskaya. Was she an agent of the terrorist underground whose activities were led by the secretary D. Dudayeva or a journalist defending human rights.
          1. +1
            April 28 2022 06: 10
            Alans-Rus

            What is this mysterious ethnic group? Your invention? wink
            1. -1
              April 29 2022 11: 45
              Quote: Luminman
              What is this mysterious ethnic group? Your invention?

              On this subject there is a book by E. Galkina "Secrets of the Russian Kaganate". From her point of view, Pletneva exaggerated the size of Khazaria and ignored the possibility of a powerful state between Khazaria and the Slavs. The Acts of the Hungarians speaks of the hard struggle of the Hungarians for the capture of the Russian capital, Kyiv. Archaeologists have not discovered the existence of stone walls during the transition of the Hungarians to Pannovia from the Sea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbAzov and Kyiv at that time three villages. Apparently the Hungarians stormed the fortresses of the Rus on the Don and the Northern Donets in alliance with the Khazars. Russian chronicles talk about the passage of the Hungarians past Kyiv without mentioning the battles and massacres.
    2. 0
      4 May 2022 17: 16
      Quote: Luminman
      In historiography, the Khazars are understood as a union of tribes, headed by the Khazars, in fact. And in the union there were Slavs, Finno-Ugric peoples, Turks, Scopho-Alano-Sarmatians and much more. The core of the Khazars professed Judaism, others - Christianity and Islam. Khazaria - a semi-nomadic state - the Kingdom of Tents.

      How could they teach statehood to others if they did not have a state, in our understanding of it? Nomads who returned to their tents for the winter...

      The Khazars had enough cities, and whether they themselves were Turks is a big question. For example, in Persian Khazars - a thousand. In the medieval genealogies, the Khazars were derived from the son of Noah Togarma, from whom the peoples of the Caucasus and Transcaucasia originated ...
  9. +8
    April 26 2022 06: 48
    Thanks, Edward.

    I especially liked the argument that since Askold and Dir were buried on the Ugrian mountain, it means that there were Hungarians.

    Something reminds Hasek, if a bird sits on a nut, then Orekhova.
    At the same time, the bird can land on different branches. And the funeral ritual is not accidental.

    And it turns out that the legends from all sides.

    Klyuchevsky is close, because he often operates with economic and economic ones. categories.

    But, again, the XNUMXth century feels much closer than the greater depth of centuries.

    But in order to accept this or that theory, on what can one undeniably rely?
    After all, even the reign of Princess Olga, with all her trips to Byzantium, the defeat of the Drevlyans, and so on, rather belongs to the legendary time.
    1. +9
      April 26 2022 06: 58
      Sergey,
      good morning.
      I started a small cycle - this is an article about the theories of bygone days.
      Further, there will be, among other things, about legends, about how they got into the Chronicle, etc.

      About Olga - yes, this is all the so-called. undated part of the chronicle. But that's all we have, here I am writing about the school of "skeptics" - in the early 19th century they questioned everything, including the entire chronicle.
      But ... some is verified by other sources, and secondly, what is what is.
      I will say this, the same Legend of Princess Olga does not contradict the Mentality of this period, as if it was not invented from scratch laughing
      Sagas - that's where it's full of fairy tales ... but they are also an important source.
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. +6
        April 26 2022 07: 21
        Good morning, Edward.

        Children's book about Princess Olga - one of the first read. And at least for this reason is close.

        And the fact that it was not invented from scratch - there is no doubt.
        In general, I am convinced that almost any legend has a basis. A question of interpretation.

        And the dated part of the chronicle with whose reign begins? How unconditionally can you trust her?

        The legends that have fallen into the annals are wonderful.
        It feels like they are always with us, no matter what age, and that's wonderful.
        1. +6
          April 26 2022 07: 56
          And the dated part of the chronicle with whose reign begins? How unconditionally can you trust her?

          The oldest set of 1039, according to A.A. Shakhmatov from 984, before that it was undated. The weather appeared with the edition of 1116, what we call, with the filing of A.A. Shakhmatova - PVL.
          It is impossible to trust sources - "trust, but verify", but it would not be right to completely slide into distrust.
          I have two next articles, from this series about the "secrets of historians" that will just be about dating and textual analysis, which "debunks" many common truths.
          But anyway - it's all relative, I'll try to convey this.
          Yours faithfully,
          Edward
          1. +4
            April 26 2022 08: 09
            Since the time of Yaroslav the Wise comes out?
            Yes, his rule can already be confirmed by cross-references from all sides.

            But then even the previous princes are within reach.

            And at the same time, a ray of light falls on individual significant events. And the rest are not so clearly visible.
            1. +3
              April 26 2022 08: 18
              Yes, like the writing that appeared after Baptism. Let's take out the brackets "something, somewhere". Like the Ancient Chronicle Code (protographer - the basis of subsequent chronicles) of 1039, so are all our first books and inscriptions from this period: the Novgorod "psalter" of 1032 is the oldest today, the Tmutarakan stone and the Ostromir Gospel - the 60s-11th centuries . writing has just begun...
              hi
              1. +4
                April 26 2022 08: 28
                So it turns out - we see a noticeable event - the Baptism of Russia.
                From it we set aside the distance in depth - as far as the eyes look.

                Interesting? Highly. Is there an uncertainty? How many more.
                1. +5
                  April 26 2022 09: 05
                  It turns out like this. There was no need. When was the so-called. PVL at the beginning of the 12th century, the editors thought, but it would be nice to bring everything to the dates where they could, comparing with the Byzantine chronicles, they wrote. Where not, they calculated approximately, for example, the date of the calling of the Varangians.
                  I will write about this in the next article.
                  It is clear that historians have known this from the Russian chronicle for 120 years, and they always keep it in their heads when they work.
                  For the average reader who learned dates in school, this may come as a shock.
                  But this is the case in all industries: there are professionals, people turn to them. Of course, pros make mistakes in any profession, but still ...
                  You can’t really argue with a dentist, even after reading the Internet, but it’s painless with a historian laughing
          2. +5
            April 26 2022 08: 42
            Sources cannot be trusted - "trust but verify"
            You can’t really check the Bible here. I like the chapters about Eden, it is told in a beautiful poetic form about the transition of mankind from gathering to agriculture. What source did the author use?
            1. +5
              April 26 2022 08: 46
              Observations? stories? And the dream to return to the Garden?
              1. +5
                April 26 2022 08: 58
                No, I don't have much else smile Someone earlier, the authors of the Bible and F. Engels, wrote "The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State" smile
                1. +4
                  April 26 2022 09: 05
                  Rock paintings?
                  1. +5
                    April 26 2022 09: 13
                    Sergei, what do you think? I made my guess in the comment above. smile
                    1. 0
                      April 26 2022 21: 15
                      You know, Alexey, today the idea was that a person’s dream is a Garden with trees and flowers, and that there should also be water and food nearby.

                      And Theophan the Recluse and John of Kronstadt called flowers "the remnants of paradise on earth."
                  2. +4
                    April 26 2022 12: 29
                    Hello, Sergey! smile
                    “I like to go into the tunnel with smart people” (c), and since I myself don’t “screw” at all in this topic, I keep quiet and just read.
                    Rock paintings?

                    Well, they are also quite informative. wink
                    1. +1
                      April 26 2022 21: 16
                      Hi Constantine!

                      A new word in the Primitive Hunt Guide.
                      1. +1
                        April 26 2022 22: 20
                        First there was a word, and this word was obscene:
                        ".... who invented the light machine gun,
                        One bullet stuck in wires
                        Another bullet all night across the steppe
                        I was chasing a Georgian." (c)
                        Sung to a well-known tune.
                2. 0
                  April 26 2022 10: 40
                  Someone earlier, the authors of the Bible and F. Engels, wrote "The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State"

                  Do you think the primitive biblical people built their lives according to books written by someone for them? wink
                  1. +3
                    April 26 2022 12: 46
                    The Behistun inscription, Sumerian tables and Egyptian papyri, began to be read only in the 19th century, as they could decipher. Before they didn’t read it. The Behustin inscription was carved for the illiterate. And the creators of the Old Testament, all the historical events reflected in it, came up out of their heads .. smile
                    1. 0
                      April 26 2022 17: 36
                      Quote: parusnik
                      And the creators of the Old Testament, all the historical events reflected in it, came up out of their heads ..

                      Thought, more than curious, everything HISTORICAL Have you read the books of the Old Testament?
                      Book of Joshua
                      Judges
                      Book of Ruth
                      Kings: First, Second, Third and Fourth
                      Books of Chronicles: First and Second
                      First Book of Ezra
                      Books of Nehemiah
                      Book of Esther
                      And have you read it all?
            2. +5
              April 26 2022 09: 15
              Alex,
              the classic of ethnology Fraser has a work - "Bible Tales" - a worthy analyst, there are works that analyze the Bible and compare it with archeological data.
              So there are attempts...

              hi
              1. +3
                April 26 2022 09: 51
                I'm still not much about something else, about those works of the ancients that have not come down to us.
        2. +1
          4 May 2022 17: 24
          Quote from Korsar4
          Good morning, Edward.

          Children's book about Princess Olga - one of the first read. And at least for this reason is close.

          And the fact that it was not invented from scratch - there is no doubt.
          In general, I am convinced that almost any legend has a basis. A question of interpretation.

          And the dated part of the chronicle with whose reign begins? How unconditionally can you trust her?

          The legends that have fallen into the annals are wonderful.
          It feels like they are always with us, no matter what age, and that's wonderful.

          From Svyatoslav Igorevich. As for Olga, not quite legendary. The countdown comes from Igor the Old, well known to Byzantine sources, and even Olga is more or less known. But the completely legendary person is Oleg the Prophetic.
          1. 0
            4 May 2022 18: 30
            I heard a version that the dates of Olga's visit to Constantinople can vary greatly, so the question is whether they refer to the same person. And the punishment of the Drevlyans is still ritual-epic.
            Can this be considered a historical fact? Unlikely.
            1. +1
              4 May 2022 19: 39
              Quote from Korsar4
              I heard a version that the dates of Olga's visit to Constantinople can vary greatly, so the question is whether they refer to the same person. And the punishment of the Drevlyans is still ritual-epic.
              Can this be considered a historical fact? Unlikely.

              The existence of Olga is historical, the fact that she visited Constantinople is also a fact. But with everything else ... because it can be attributed to semi-legendary personalities. But the fact that there was one or several .... it is likely that there were several. The same doubts exist regarding Oleg and Igor, there are also discrepancies in the dates. If we take the reign of Askold and Dir as reliability, then it is quite likely that at an early stage the reign of two princes at the same time was common. Although there is a problem with dating, because different sources could use different versions of chronology from the creation of the world.
      2. +3
        April 26 2022 10: 04
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        I started a small cycle - this is an article about the theories of bygone days.

        Good afternoon Edward,
        I think this is a great idea to "go through historiography" a little, including all sorts of "exotic theories". It immediately becomes clear "where the legs grow from" for many modern "unofficial historians". hi
        1. +3
          April 26 2022 13: 27
          Sergey,
          good day,
          just got to the computer.
          hi
          1. +2
            April 26 2022 13: 48
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            Sergey,
            good day,
            just got to the computer.

            Is your site working properly?
            somehow, once in a while, it doesn’t allow me to put pluses and messages don’t come, although comments allow me to post. hi
            1. +2
              April 26 2022 14: 05
              When like, then so, then that, today.
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. +3
        April 26 2022 14: 59
        Stay an expert until the end. "Tales" for a long time the history of the Slavs were the only historical source. And to use this word in a pejorative sense is somehow not good. If we take the majority of written artifacts, then these are fairy tales written on parchment or papyrus, retellings of someone to someone. Before the beginning of the era of bureaucracy, people did not even have the idea to write down some everyday events "for posterity." Even you in your material say that the theory existed due to an incorrect translation of the source. And who said that the translation used today is correct? Do not bother to answer, I know the answer - a scientific approach to the study of history. But what is it? In fact, this is a consensus between researchers of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries, to which they were forced to come in order to somehow answer the questions that they had and justify their own existence. So, fairy tales are the basis of historical information about the Slavs, sagas are the source of the same information about the Scandinavians, the Vedas are about the Indians, and so on and so forth. The classification of these sources by "official historical science" as "little scientific and unreliable" is just an attempt to defend their approach and their place in the sun.
        As for Russian history as a whole, for researchers, say, the history of France, even chivalric novels are a source of historical facts, and for the study of the history of Russia and epic - fiction from beginning to end.
        1. +3
          April 26 2022 20: 22
          Dear Vik,
          studies of the history of Russia and epic - fiction from beginning to end.
          ,
          a lot of works explore the epic as a historical source.
          For example: Yudin Yu.I. Heroic epics (poetic art),
          Froyanov I.Ya. Yudin Yu.I. Epic history, Drama of an ancient family, and Propp himself, his studies of fairy tales as historical sources, and Afanasiev.
          All that I immediately remembered.
          Yours faithfully,
          hi
          1. +1
            3 May 2022 15: 00
            Well, then why do you have such an attitude to fairy tales? Well, okay ... Thanks for the answer.
    2. +4
      April 26 2022 10: 20
      Quote from Korsar4
      I especially liked the argument that since Askold and Dir were buried on the Ugrian mountain, it means that there were Hungarians.

      I will continue the thought: since there was a place in Kyiv called "Askold's Grave", then there was Askold, and if Askold was, then he was the ruler of Kyiv, and who else?
      At least, apparently, our chronicler reasoned like that, and as a result, the only real fact of Askold's existence is the presence in Kyiv of the 12th century of a place called "Askold's Grave". hi
      1. +1
        April 26 2022 21: 26
        And when they were looking for a candidate, whom Oleg nailed, asserting the power of the Ruriks, they used a suitable toponym.
        1. +1
          April 27 2022 09: 59
          Quote from Korsar4
          And when they were looking for a candidate, whom Oleg nailed, asserting the power of the Ruriks, they used a suitable toponym.

          Something like this. hi
  10. +5
    April 26 2022 07: 10
    I always like Edward's articles!
    1. +6
      April 26 2022 07: 38
      Thanks Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      Mutually!
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
  11. +7
    April 26 2022 07: 26
    Edward, great review! But I think you are misunderstood smile
    1. +7
      April 26 2022 07: 47
      Alex,
      good morning!
      Probably the author's mistake - that he was not understood.
      It’s another matter that, unfortunately, we have everything, I don’t even know what word to choose, variations on a historical theme in the amateur field bear a personal imprint: I like this king, but this one is not very good, and also: this one did the right thing, but this one is not right ... here it was necessary to fight like that, and not like that.
      So it turns out that the reader is used to it: this is a personal "theory", this is a personal opinion, and not scientific data, one must and must argue.
      In science, personal opinion is secondary, first powerful argumentation based on sources. And if there are few of them or there is only one?
      Then the conclusions are extremely cautious.
      And no gag: here I would be in the place of Suvorov or Kutuzov, well, who fights like that?
      Although at the end I then concluded, just from myself laughing
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. +6
        April 26 2022 08: 12
        So it turns out that the reader is used to it: this is a personal "theory", this is a personal opinion, and not scientific data, one must and must argue.
        So that's just the point! When I read your article, I immediately realized that "water will rush along the aqueduct" in the comments. laughing And no mistake. laughing I read the comments, "the soul cries out!" Guys, the article is not about what you think! Argue with Evers, with others indicated in the article, but not with the author. Regards!
  12. +7
    April 26 2022 07: 44
    The author touched upon in his article two forces, conditionally, the south and the north, which certainly influenced the formation of Russia.
    And it's pointless to argue.
    It is one thing that "their own sources" write, and another thing is that "foreign" sources write about Russia.
    The author mentioned Arabic sources, but Konstantin Bagnorodny Rus is devoted to a larger section of his book on government.
    Ahmed ibn Fadlan 921-922 visited the Volga Bulgaria as part of the embassy of the Caliph of Baghdad and describes the Rus, whom he encounters, as representatives of a well-established "country".
    Naturally, the entire environment of Russia, voluntarily or involuntarily, influenced its formation.
    1. +7
      April 26 2022 08: 07
      Alexander,
      good morning.
      Glad to hear you.
      hi
      1. +6
        April 26 2022 09: 14
        Kind! And the weather is nice and sunny!
        1. +5
          April 26 2022 09: 37
          I think it is appropriate to draw a parallel with Tmutarakan. The territory previously belonged to the Khazar Khaganate, and now the society decided to invite Mstislav Vladimirovich to reign and "ours" reigned there, if I'm not mistaken, for about 200 years.
          And no one sees a problem in this. Which only says that the people of Russia were in authority.
      2. +3
        April 26 2022 09: 18
        Few people pay attention to the fact that the Normans who came "sat down" in four different cities at once. Those. the association that "summoned" them owned a vast territory, in fact, this is a state!
        1. +4
          April 26 2022 11: 50
          Quote: ee2100
          Few people pay attention to the fact that the Normans who came "sat down" in four different cities at once.

          They do, of course. smile
          According to the annals, Rurik ruled for 17 years.
          There is an opinion that this excerpt from the chronicle
          And three brothers were elected with their families, and they took all of Russia with them, and they came, and the eldest, Rurik, sat in Novgorod, and the other, Sineus, on Beloozero, and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. And from those Varangians the Russian land was nicknamed. Novgorodians are those people from the Varangian family, and before they were Slovenes. Two years later, Sineus and his brother Truvor died. And one Rurik took all the power, and began to distribute cities to his men - Polotsk to this, Rostov to this, Beloozero to another.

          especially, the selected part - just includes all these 17 years. That is, initially the lands of Polotsk and Rostov were not part of Rurik's state, but were annexed by him during his reign.
          By the way, Beloozero, according to archaeological research, has the most ancient cultural layers of the end of the XNUMXth century, but not the second half of the XNUMXth century, that is, it did not exist at the time of Rurik. So either Beloozero is "not right", or they just haven't found the right place where to dig yet ... smile
          1. +2
            April 26 2022 11: 54
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            By the way, Beloozero, according to archaeological research, has the most ancient cultural layers of the end of the XNUMXth century, but not the second half of the XNUMXth century, that is, it did not exist at the time of Rurik.

            As well as Novgorod and Polotsk, by the way, in which no layers of the 9th century have been found to date. hi
            1. +3
              April 26 2022 12: 07
              Greetings, Sergey.
              About Polotsk - https://www.novopolotsk.by/ru/news/news-region/960-436
              Archaeologists again find confirmation of an earlier date for the founding of Polotsk. Of the 8 artifacts found this season, almost 200 date back to the end of the XNUMXth century, head of the excavations, head of the department of national and general history of Polotsk State University, Candidate of Historical Sciences, associate professor Denis Duk told BelTA.
              The age of the finds is confirmed by radiocarbon analysis. Thus, archaeologists again questioned the date of the founding of Polotsk known from the annals - 862. According to Denis Duk, the found remains of pottery, household items, iron tips indicate that already at the end of the XNUMXth century Polotsk was a developed trade and craft center, comparable in its foreign economic relations with Novgorod.
              1. +2
                April 26 2022 12: 24
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Greetings, Sergey.
                About Polotsk - https://www.novopolotsk.by/ru/news/news-region/960-436

                Good afternoon Mikhail,
                Well, from this vague note in the news portal, it is hardly possible to draw far-reaching conclusions.
                At the same time, a study of the soil at the excavation site showed that even before our era there was a large settlement here.

                Why actually not? on the site of St. Petersburg, there was more than one settlement of different eras, including BC, but this does not make St. Petersburg a city founded at that time.
                Not so long ago I read a thorough article about the archeology of Polotsk and the conclusion there was unambiguous: there are layers of the 10th century, earlier ones have not yet been discovered. hi
                1. +4
                  April 26 2022 13: 50
                  An article in the news came out in 2010, I looked at Wiki, just during this period from 2007 to 2012, Duk was actively published, but everything was in Belarusian.
                  So, like, a real scientist, a professional, not folk. So you can see in detail what he found there and what conclusions he made.
                  But in general, for me, the pre-Rurik existence of Polotsk as a craft and trade center is a completely possible thing, I don’t see anything supernatural in this.
                  1. +2
                    April 26 2022 14: 05
                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    Duk was actively published, but everything was in Belarusian.
                    So, like, a real scientist, a professional, not folk.

                    I don’t know Mikhail, I looked about him on the Internet, but it seems that a dubious character, one story with the so-called "thousand-year-old Rossony idol" is worth something:
                    For more than three months, an examination of a wooden figure, which Polotsk archaeologists raised from the Drissa River, was carried out. “The idol lay in the water for about a thousand years, and, in principle, it was well preserved,” scientists confidently asserted. The news spread all over the Belarusian media, but today it has already become known that this is a fake.
                    “I have nothing to please you. This is a modern product,” says Olga Levko, head of the Center for the History of Pre-Industrial Society at the Institute of History of the National Academy of Sciences of Belarus, to Euroradio.
                    Euroradio: “What, completely new?”
                    Levko: “Yes, the end of the XNUMXth century.”
                    What will happen to the "idol" is still unknown. “We will give it back to Dooku,” says Olga Levko about one of the options.
                    1. +3
                      April 26 2022 16: 07
                      Yes, an interesting story ... Well, okay, I won’t argue, I haven’t read the works of this comrade and haven’t heard anything about him until recently.
                      1. +3
                        April 26 2022 16: 55
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        I have not read the works of this comrade and have not heard anything about him until recently.

                        So did I, but for some reason the first impression immediately arose that a comrade with nationalist ambitions. hi
                      2. +4
                        April 26 2022 17: 07
                        Perhaps, perhaps ...
                        We need to see if he has articles in peer-reviewed journals. However, the early history of Polotsk is not very close to me, so we will postpone this event until better times. smile
                      3. +2
                        April 26 2022 17: 13
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        So let's postpone this event until better times.

                        Let's put it aside, if I find an article about early Polotsk, which I mentioned, then I will re-read it and report back. hi
                      4. +1
                        April 27 2022 11: 06
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        We need to see if he has articles in peer-reviewed journals. However, the early history of Polotsk is not very close to me, so we will postpone this event until better times.

                        Good afternoon, Mikhail, I found the article mentioned yesterday and here I am reporting:
                        Article 2009 Plavinsky N.A. (National Museum of History and Culture of Belarus) "Polotsk to Rogvold"
                        The question of the emergence of the early city center at the confluence of the Polota with the Western Dvina remains the main debatable issue of the Polotsk chronology. The upper limit is more or less defined quite clearly - it is approximately the middle of the 2th century. Based on XNUMX considerations:
                        1) It is known from chronicle sources that around this time Rogvold ruled
                        2) In the middle of the XNUMXth century, stucco ceramics are replaced by early pottery, which makes it possible to quite confidently separate earlier strata from the “Rovgold times”
                        At the moment, there are 3 main concepts for the emergence of Polotsk (based on archaeological data):
                        1) Proposed by Shtykhov G.V., based on the first researcher of Polotsk archeology Lyavdansky (20-30s): the Krivichi settlement arose on the original settlement on the right bank of the Polota River in the bend of its oxbow river in the first half of the 1st millennium AD. population of the Dnieper-Dvinsk culture. In VIII-1 / 2Xv, the territory of Polotsk consisted of a settlement and a settlement of 0,25-0,3 hectares on one of the capes on the right bank of the Polota
                        2) The concept of Tarasov S.V.: continues the concept of Shtykhov, but with fundamental changes based on the excavations of the 1980s: originally the settlement was located on the cape of the left bank of the Polota and a large settlement next to it and also a settlement on the right bank.
                        A supporter of this version is the mentioned D.V. Duk, but with the amendment that the original center of Polotsk should not have been located at a considerable distance from the Dvina and suggests considering Zapolotye or Ostrov.
                        3) S.V. Beletsky and Yu.M. Lesman believe that the oldest layers of Polotsk are reliably dated no earlier than the XNUMXth century.
                        The basis for dating the ancient settlement and settlement of the 9th-XNUMXth centuries of the Shtykhovs was molded ceramics, which, in his opinion, is similar to the burial utensils of the burial mounds of northern Belarus, however, firstly, a full-fledged study of Polotsk molded ceramics has not yet been carried out and, secondly, the basis for dating are, first of all, individual finds with a reliably determined chronology, for example, arrowheads (there are such) and a piece of a dirham. On the basis of these finds, the settlement can be dated to the first half of the XNUMXth century, although, of course, the possibility of the XNUMXth century should not be ruled out.
                        The most probable is the following reconstruction of the territory of Polotsk in the early stages (until the middle of the XNUMXth century): the fortified center was located not on the left bank of the Polota, but settlements both on the left and on the right banks. Moreover, the territory of the right-bank settlement was apparently quite significant. The settlement of both banks is also confirmed by the structure of the city necropolis: on the right bank - the Northern burial ground, on the left bank - the Eastern burial ground.
                        Conclusion of the article: the question of the time of the emergence of the early city center in Polot remains open, since the annalistic evidence of the existence of Polotsk in 862 remains insufficiently confirmed by archaeological data.
                        On my own behalf, I can add that, in my opinion, a watershed in the development of Polotsk as a settlement in the 8th-10th centuries is quite clearly fixed: this is the middle of the 8th century, which actually indicates the existence of a city similar to Novgorod, Kyiv and other cities of that time. As for the 9th-XNUMXth centuries (if this is proved), then it is clearly a tribal type of settlement: a fortified settlement and settlements around it (nested type). All this is quite correlated with the formation of other cities. hi
                      5. +1
                        April 27 2022 11: 35
                        Thanks, Sergey. I read it with interest. I will definitely find the article. So far there is nothing more to answer. smile hi
          2. +3
            April 26 2022 13: 12
            Hi Michael!
            I mean that in fact there was something to lead. For some reason, the Estonians did not call the Swedes and the Vikings did not rush to them
            1. +4
              April 26 2022 13: 38
              Yes, Alexander, good afternoon.
              The Varangians rushed to the Arab silver, and through Estonia there were no convenient ways for this in the form of rivers, so they were more interested in Ladoga, Rostov and, partly, Polotsk. And they could not call anyone, because they were then in the stage of a tribal system. But there are Scandinavian camps on the Estonian shores, although they do not abound with convenient harbors.
              1. +1
                April 26 2022 15: 08
                So I'm talking about it. It is interesting that Asian silver dried up and the interest of the Varangians in Russia faded.
                1. 0
                  4 May 2022 17: 30
                  Quote: ee2100
                  So I'm talking about it. It is interesting that Asian silver dried up and the interest of the Varangians in Russia faded.

                  It was not interest that dried up, but simply the Varangians ended ... as an independent ethnic unit. All became Germans. And on the sea expanses, pirates and merchants from the southern coast of the Baltic were forced out by pirates and merchants of Scandinavia.
              2. +1
                April 26 2022 17: 04
                I wonder who at that time was called Arabs.
                Those who converted to Islam.
                1. +4
                  April 26 2022 17: 10
                  Most likely - the Arabs were called. Let's just say - those who spoke Arabic.
                2. 0
                  4 May 2022 17: 31
                  Quote from DiViZ
                  I wonder who at that time was called Arabs.
                  Those who converted to Islam.

                  Arabs and other Semites who converted to Islam.
          3. +2
            April 26 2022 13: 39
            Michael,
            good afternoon, just my continuation of the "secrets of historians" about this: Rurik is at stake.
            Yours faithfully,
            Edward
            1. +3
              April 26 2022 16: 16
              My respects, Edward. Rurik - he is always Rurik, like the Mongols are always the Mongols. smile
              They (Mongols and Scandinavians) have a lot in common - in some circles the question is still being discussed whether they were Russians, and at the same time. Hopefully we will find out soon. smile
              1. +3
                April 26 2022 16: 50
                Mutually!
                Who would know?
                laughing
            2. +2
              April 26 2022 16: 53
              Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
              on horseback Rurik

              Ochepyatka? on horseback Rurik! :waat:
              1. +2
                April 26 2022 17: 12
                Quote: Mihaylov
                on horseback Rurik!

                Rurik - in the boat! Comes to checkmate. laughing
  13. 0
    April 26 2022 08: 58
    Well, for example, the Khazar fork on the coat of arms of Rurik explains this
  14. +2
    April 26 2022 10: 08
    As a result of military campaigns from the territories of Iran to the north through the Caucasian mountains, the name of the word Khazaria predetermined, the tribes had to unite to resist the invasions. The very word Khazaria Kazaria came from the south. An analogy can be drawn from the words Habil and Kabil. Abel is a Phenician and Cain is Superman.
  15. +1
    April 26 2022 10: 36
    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
    there are works analyzing the bible and comparing it with archeological data

    Do you mean the imperishable "works" of Erich von Döniken? wink
    1. +3
      April 26 2022 12: 17
      There is a whole subsection of archeology - "biblical archeology", which, among other things, deals with the comparison of kopanina and biblical texts
      An overview of the historiography on the subject and the current state of affairs can be found here.
      https://www.amazon.com/Biblical-Archaeology-Very-Short-Introduction/dp/0195342631
  16. 0
    April 26 2022 11: 24
    It remains to impose genetic studies, then all theories will be doubtful.
    1. 0
      April 27 2022 22: 43
      Genetics are fun too.
      For example, she cannot give an answer why the Hungarians are more Slavic in DNA than the Bulgarians, but the Bulgarians completely assimilated the foreign-speaking invaders, and the Hungarians imposed their language on the conquered.
  17. +1
    April 26 2022 12: 34
    And I will say a seditious thought even if you throw slippers ... Slavs, Russia is not the West, not the East and not the South. We are the North! Our civilization came from the North. Therefore, we are not like them. That's why we get rejected all the time! We are strangers to them... The Earth, as scientists say, changed its poles twice, it is likely that ancient civilizations about which we do not know perished. And let's draw a line under what is known. Tezhe Khazars ... Here they are! Let's sew the Slavs to them. And we begin to bring the canvas under the embroidery.
    1. 0
      4 May 2022 17: 32
      Quote: Alexander Kuksin
      And I will say a seditious thought even if you throw slippers ... Slavs, Russia is not the West, not the East and not the South. We are the North! Our civilization came from the North. Therefore, we are not like them. That's why we get rejected all the time! We are strangers to them... The Earth, as scientists say, changed its poles twice, it is likely that ancient civilizations about which we do not know perished. And let's draw a line under what is known. Tezhe Khazars ... Here they are! Let's sew the Slavs to them. And we begin to bring the canvas under the embroidery.

      There is no need to drag an alternative here ...
  18. +1
    April 26 2022 18: 36
    Here I want to throw a bridge into the present. Who created the state of Kazakhstan? Russians like Varangians or Khazars Rus? Or did they themselves (Kazakhs) become worthy? Are there any laws of society by which states are created? Or, for example, is Great Britain a medieval state or a modern one?
    And yet, I don’t remember the last name, the biologist, a specialist in genes, proved that the Russians don’t have Norman or Khazar genes, which means they did everything themselves. belay Yes
    1. +1
      April 26 2022 20: 32
      Quote: V.
      Russians do not have Khazar genes

      And where did he find the Khazar genes? In whom?
    2. 0
      5 July 2022 19: 32
      This geneticist has the surname Klyosov. And with regards to the Kazakhs, then here you can read
      "Who are you Kazakh? Brother, friend or..."
      https://wakeupnow.info/ru/one-menu-facts-opinion/2840-kto-ty-kazakh-brat-drug-ili
  19. -2
    April 27 2022 10: 58
    Here are those on ... Are these dirty nomads grazed cattle in this form? Or did they go to steal a herd from other such unwashed nomads? Russian "historians" ... British scientists smoke enviously ...
  20. 0
    4 May 2022 15: 59
    Another nonsense ... firstly, the Saltovo-Mayatsky culture did not spread to the Caucasus. Secondly, what does Rurik have to do with it, if in the oldest lists the reckoning begins with Igor the Old ... let's move on Russia in the Dnieper region has been noted already since the 5th century in the Black Sea region in about the same way. Apparently they existed for some time in parallel to each other. Lomonosov linked the Alans from the Saltovo-Mayak culture with Russia, and such a connection was only not with the Black Sea, but with the Dnieper culture, hence the "Russian" names of the rapids. Further, Ugorskaya Gora is already a name of a much later time ... 10-11 centuries, so to drag in here the Ugrians who not only reigned but did not even begin to fight, they preferred to pass by ... another unsuccessful attempt to put forward a version that is contrary to Normanism, which is still more than Normanism is pushed by the ears to a version that is "convenient" for the authors of this creation ... it is instead of really taking up the problem of Russia and continuing the work of A. G. Kuzmin, but there you need to shovel a sea of ​​​​sources from annals to simple regulations and just trades. And then he took something as a basis and invent further how God will put all the restrictions on the soul only in the possibilities of the author's imagination. It’s a pity you can’t put a minus, it’s a pity and a pity for the time spent.
  21. 0
    4 May 2022 16: 03
    He laughed about the Varangian Khazars in general ... the author apparently did not even hear about the work of Vasilevsky V. G. "The Varangian-Russian squad and the Varangian-English squad in Constantinople of the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries" as well as about the numerous Russians in central and northern Europe
  22. 0
    4 May 2022 16: 33
    I apologize, I made a mistake in the surname, not Vasilevsky, but Vasilevsky V.G.
  23. 0
    5 May 2022 15: 27
    Dear Eduard Dmitrievich! Jews ruled in the Khazar Khaganate for a long time, they have a very developed written tradition and culture! The Talmudic literature reflects all the milestones of the historical path of the Jewish people, almost from the time of primitive savagery! But at the same time, there are absolutely no documents on the Khazar period!? Where are these documents? There must be somewhere an archive of the Khazar kings and kagans?! And it is absolutely surprising that the Jews do not mention their Khazar adventures in the Talmuds!?
  24. 0
    29 May 2022 18: 39
    Then they cling to Europe, by the forces of Karamzin and other great storytellers ... now it has become out of fashion, a turn to .... nowhere ....
  25. 0
    22 June 2022 16: 36
    In general, such a scientific cabal ...
    That Russia was created by the Normans, now the Khazars have created it, I won’t be surprised if it turns out later that Moses with a Jewish tourist group came to us and also put his hand ...
    As a friend said: "Is there life on Mars, is there life on Mars ..." In general, dear scientists, all your theories and hypotheses (except for circumstantial evidence))) are not confirmed by anything, material evidence is diverse and can be interpreted as one way or the other way. In theory, all the nationalities that inhabited the expanses of our vast Motherland and even grazed somewhere nearby in those ancient times can be attracted to the "creation of Russia."
    That's where the scope for imagination! Good luck! I wish you further great discoveries!
    1. 0
      26 June 2022 14: 43
      Some historians present here are fighting here not for historical accuracy, but for their trough, dissertations and others like them.
      Because the denial of the DNA theory of the origin of ethnic groups just proves this.
      And since "history is written by the victors," of course, you can trust historical documents only by checking a hundred times whether they are compatible with knowledge about the field of physics, astrophysics, astronomy, geology, genetics (DNA genealogy for example) ...
      And there are also amateur historians, such as Aleksey Sidaikin, who generally did not give a single argument against research in the field of DNA genealogy, but only spells, such as "this cannot be, because it cannot be" and other unproven assertions...
  26. 0
    5 July 2022 19: 07
    It turned out great - historians-thinkers are listed (selectively, those that they like), who built their assumptions-hypotheses on the forgery of some. And they "built up" even to: "... The primitive Russ were probably Turkish and, probably, the Kozar tribe" - how is that? What if it's the other way around? In general, where did the KAGANATE come from and why did Judaism appear there? Probably the Russians brought ...? And who are the Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns? Where did they come from and where did they go? And if you read Gumilyov? Yes, at least articles by Alexander Samsonov on the same site ...
    "Crimea: from the Russian Tmutarakan to the Horde"
    https://topwar.ru/77287-krym-ot-russkoy-tmutarakani-k-orde.html
    "Secrets of Russian history: Azov-Black Sea Rus and Varangian Rus" (part 1 and part 2)
    https://topwar.ru/21522-tayny-russkoy-istorii-azovo-chernomorskaya-rus-i-varyazhskaya-rus.html
    or another author "The Creation of a Parasitic State by the Jews. The Khazar Kaganate"
    https://wakeupnow.info/ru/chief-menu-history/204-sozdanie-iudeyami-paraziticheskogo-gosudarstva-khazarskij-kaganat
    Yes, and Pyzhikov is not a sin to listen to


  27. 0
    7 July 2022 18: 15
    Each Marfushka has her own toys... Khazars for some, Normans for others. And I believe the Hindus, who claim that their gods came from the North, were tall, blue-eyed and fair-haired. Such people met in the 19th century, for example, in the Perm Territory, in the northern part of the Ural Mountains.
  28. 0
    9 July 2022 14: 18
    ".... The primitive Russ were probably Turkish and, probably, the Kozar tribe ...."".
    Nonsense nonsense or crafty attempt of "friends" of Russia
    open a new overton window???

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