AK-12. Requirements for a modern machine

246

To be honest, I tried to understand (well, yes, think of the 46th Research Institute or TsNIITOCHMASH, but what’s worse for me?), But what doesn’t suit all AKs, well, not counting the “smart” words that don’t speak to the specialist about the immoral obsolescence of the AK - a completely vague reason, and whether he needs this very replacement at all, well, at least now. I thought for myself, read the articles of my colleagues, talked to anyone, fortunately, intelligent specialists and non-specialists are not translated. Maybe their dust, huh? The result turned out to be frankly mournful, but as it is, I will not remain silent anyway. I will try to state all worthwhile, from my point of view, thoughts that I could scrape together. Moreover, they are still shamefully few.

Main claims against AK


If we omit the claims of athletes, civilian amateur shooters, couch experts, etc., it turns out that the target audience of users is generally satisfied with the AK assault rifle (not the AK-12). And even fighters of elite special forces, having the opportunity to choose almost any existing in the world weapons, for the most part, they choose AK, well, they “tune” it, of course. Therefore, based on my own experience (design, production, shooting) and impressions from getting to know various, including foreign, systems of this and not this class, I will try to make my own list of advantages, claims and wishes.

Ergonomics is a classic at its best, a mechanical sight, for me it is the main one - the best in the class, but adjusting the stock, at least in length, while maintaining its strength characteristics and folding it to the right side of the machine is very desirable. I'll skip the last one though. In addition, for me (height 189 cm) the handguard is uncritical, but still a bit short (preferably at least + 35 ... 50 mm). The regular fire control handle, although it looks “not cool”, is durable and absolutely comfortable, both for a bare hand and in any glove. The fuse, in accordance with modern trends, is desirable on both sides, under the thumb, not tight and not noisy.



The upper bar for mounting new standard and advanced sighting accessories is required. It is necessary to provide (or rather save) the possibility of installing an underbarrel grenade launcher and attaching a bayonet-knife. Well, a gun belt of modern design, but preferably from traditional materials (fire-resistant, non-reflective, etc.), although the latter (materials) is probably superfluous. And at the same time maintain reliability and ease of operation. And I would also like to increase the accuracy of fire and get a more suitable cartridge for modern conditions.

Increase accuracy of fire. But from this place, I, perhaps, will not restrain myself, I will not be able to briefly. Two points, in my opinion, are decisive here for the AK, and this is by no means only the design of the machine gun, although “untying” the relatively thin barrel and forend is still a very good idea, and if you also eliminate the DTK chatter and tighten up the ergonomics ... Cartridge and production conditions, from my point of view, are the main problems on the way to improving the “heap”.

The workmanship of the shaft cartridge has never been particularly thorough. Even the “needles” of one party sometimes give a decent spread, and the saddest thing is that in this matter we are outright losing to our sworn friends. Well, the accuracy of weapons cannot be better than the accuracy of ammunition, it can only be worse, and the whole question is how much worse. And here the design features of the sample and the quality of its factory production already play a role. The design of the AK is conventional for its time. So what's better than AR? Straight layout? So for the creators of AR, this is a forced step - they had to put a return somewhere (the return mechanism, which AR often calls a buffer). In general, hunting rifles have the best ergonomics, but have you come across a straight layout there?

If we talk about the toss of the barrel during automatic firing, yes, systems with a straightened layout have less of it, but the turning moment and the feeling of recoil perceived by the shooter are stronger. In addition, the increased height of the sighting line increases the most dangerous - the vertical projection of the shooter and, as a result, increases the likelihood of his being destroyed by return fire, and all of the above about the straightened layout has already set the teeth on edge - I don’t know for whom and why I repeat all this.

As for the quality of the factory-made machine gun and its effect on accuracy, I will give a couple of examples. In the 80s, it seems, a plant for the production of AKs was built in Libya (the Romanian version with a handle on the forearm and a folding butt), our specialists worked there, and German Fedorovich Mironov (bless his memory), my colleague, sent to Libya from SKB KMZ. He told:

“... we take machine guns of the same batch, accepted by the Quality Control Department. We shoot a bunch of short ones. One (automatic) stands like a glove, the other jumps like a louse. Why? I never understood.”

Although Mironov was a great test analyst and knew how to find reasons. One of the designers of my group, who served as an urgent machine gunner in Khankala in BAO (wounded, shell-shocked), said that the best and most desirable among the soldiers were AK and PKMy of the old years of production with a wooden forearm and butt. The designers leading the production of the Kord machine gun, a few years after the start of production:

"... the situation in the first production is getting worse, the quality of the product has fallen by a third."

I think, and I have heard a lot, that the drop in quality during manufacture is, again, a general trend that has not bypassed Izhmash either.

Unfortunately, the design process is almost always a compromise between hot and slippery. And the desire to fulfill the requirements for reliability also, as a rule, leads to a deterioration in accuracy. To ensure reliable operation of automation in difficult operating conditions (read - “to pass the test”), it is necessary, among other design tricks, to increase the gaps between the moving parts, increase the weight of the moving parts to the optimum and increase the speed of their movement, i.e. increase their inertia so that in any conditions simulated during the test, it is enough for the normal operation of automation.

All this leads to a deterioration in accuracy, both single and automatic fire. When fired, under the action of a recoil momentum, a shift and collision of all moving parts occurs until the springs settle down. On the "balance" version of AEK cal. 7,62 even had to strengthen the magazine spring. The cartridges, when fired under the action of recoil, settled down, and the regular spring did not have time to return them to the chambering line - it turned out to be a feed pass. The larger the gaps between the parts, the stronger and more unpredictable the vector effect of moving these parts on the weapon.

Therefore, for example, in self-loading sniper weapons, to increase accuracy, these gaps are reduced, the movement of moving parts is made as smooth as possible (US Army M21 self-loading sniper rifle - a modification of the M14 army rifle for smooth movement of moving parts was checked by tilting the barrel up and down by 30 degrees, with the in the return mechanism, the moving parts had to move under the action of their own weight from the extreme front to the extreme rear position and vice versa), but at the same time, the requirements for reliability in difficult operating conditions had to be relaxed (for example, drawing, which not everyone passes by AK, was generally removed from the test program for self-loading snipers).

An increase in the mass and speed of moving parts leads to an increase in the impact on the recoil pad (stock block) perceived by the shooter, and for weapons using a low-impulse cartridge (read - small-caliber weapons), this component of the recoil momentum is the main one, surpassing the recoil momentum from the shot itself. And if the recoil momentum from a shot can also be reduced by using DT or DTK, then only the use of a balanced automation scheme or an automation scheme with momentum accumulation in a weapon can save you from hitting the butt plate. Although there are no free cakes, these solutions have their own genetic problems, but I will talk about this a little later.

So, as for the AKM… AK-12 and not only. They, more precisely, their basic models, from which they are structurally and technologically almost the same, were developed in the USSR in the 40s of the last century and were calculated for mass production. To what extent do available manufacturing and even design technologies influence product design? At 99%. Stamping in combination with heat treatment and welding involves careful debugging of the technical process, even in the presence of competent and experienced (not the same) specialists - technologists and thermal specialists. I know from experience that there are unfortunately few such specialists left, however, there have always been few of them.

The situation with personnel, probably, can still be corrected if the management nevertheless takes care of the production for which it is responsible (just the responsibility should not be in words), and without waiting for the last experienced worker to move horses right at the workplace (it happens) , take care of his successor.

This also applies to blue-collar workers. Working dynasties, pride in the enterprise, responsibility for the task assigned, the desire not to let down fellow workers (comrades, not drinking buddies!), mentoring - in the current paradigm have sunk into the past, and attempts to revive all this have long been removed from the agenda. I remember that a class carver (chamber) before his retirement went to the management of the shop and offered to train someone to replace him, asked for a little extra payment for this, and called the amount ridiculous, for the sake of order.

He was answered in such a way that I had to attach him to the pilot production of the PKC as a locksmith. Then he was driven by order to his old place of work. The result of this attitude towards employees? In Soviet times, hundreds of barrels were made in this production. And in the 2010s, I witnessed how a special persuader crawled behind the military representative, persuading him to accept 5 defective (out of 8 made over the same period of time) barrels. Moreover, in Soviet times, all 8 would have been rejected. By the way, the quality of the manufacture of the barrel is one of the main components of the accuracy of fire. It's not mentoring, it's just saying.

Actually, due to the well-established manufacturing process of stamped and welded parts, including a huge amount of expensive technological equipment, the introduction of any major changes in the design of the receiver of a mass product, what is the AK and what, in principle, should be the AK-12, designed and manufactured in fire order, and therefore with very controversial merits and, as a result, with an incomprehensible potential of manufacturing orders, it seems like a production adventure even to me.

But despite the amazing, well, of course, for its time, manufacturability of the design of the machine and the design and technological development of its production, the quality of its manufacture is highly dependent on the human factor. Editing of stamped and welded parts, sawing of the lugs of the bolt, cracker, parts of the trigger mechanism. These are very important operations. And their implementation directly depends on the availability of trained, responsible and sober, at least at the time of the operation, personnel, with a mandatory “bench”, which, by the way, requires an appropriate attitude from an equally competent leadership.

And this combination is becoming less and less common, and this, together with the wear and tear of production equipment and technological equipment, causes a drop in the quality of manufacturing products, which, in turn, forces designers to take measures so that products successfully pass periodic tests and, in particular, increase speed mobile, and this, as mentioned above, is a deterioration in accuracy.

Moreover, the introduction of new equipment and attempts to use new technologies change little, the design is optimized for completely different technologies. And there’s almost nothing to be done, in the West, and anywhere else, the same thing is happening, but a course has long been taken there (however, as in recent times with us) to eliminate the influence of the human factor on the quality of products by introducing new technologies and optimizing for them weapon designs.

A few years ago, I got into the hands of a Raffaello submachine gun in a gift version: engraving, polishing, impregnation, etc. Having disassembled it, I fell into a sediment - the flash was not removed from the plastic parts of the trigger. But everything worked. In the same place where a person cannot be dispensed with, they use, oddly enough, the Soviet experience (although what does the Soviet experience have to do with it, my grandmother told me that under the tsar this was always the case for normal owners) - labor dynasties, honor to good workers, fostering pride in being involved in the creation things, decent wages.

Summing up the above confusion. In order to improve the accuracy of fire from a machine gun and at the same time maintain its legendary reliability, it is necessary, first of all, to ensure the proper level of workmanship of the product in production. And for this, it is wider to introduce new technologies, while simultaneously optimizing the design of the machine for them. And we need to change something in industrial relations. That is, the approach should be comprehensive, and in deed, not in words.

But what about instead of AK?

In order to create something new to replace the icon, which undoubtedly is the AK, it is necessary to carefully calculate and predict the development of production technologies, progress in the development of personal armor protection, the possible appearance of new targets on the battlefield, the development of means of support (command control, various rifle accessories , the emergence of new ammunition and automation schemes), the financial component, i.e. a full-fledged research work is needed, only to at least develop a worthwhile technical specification, and not attempts to pass off as a new AK-47 with teeth of Picatinny rails all over the face.

By the way, I recall the requirements for the uniform of a soldier of the times of the USSR that accidentally fell into my hands: ... the minimum number of seams, the seams themselves are smooth, only internal or mortise pockets (not overhead) with valves - to make it easier to remove radioactive dust. This is me about the degree of thoughtfulness by the customer of technical requirements and the scrupulousness of working out the terms of reference, and, probably, this makes sense - they don’t fight those who are well prepared for war, but the main task of the Armed Forces in any normal state is protection from external threats, incl. h. from the threat of an attack, and not just the elimination of the consequences of this very attack.

But if you don’t swim deep into the future, but try to imagine the current machine gun of today, well, that is, what would be in demand by the army in the near future (well, laugh to your health, they play such games, but not everyone, and not just designers , and God himself ordered them), so you can try it.

1. Cartridge


Army weapons are created specifically for arming the army, and the main enemy of the army, for which, in fact, it is needed, is the regular army of the enemy. The fight against bandits, separatists, partisans and other informals is, of course, a necessary thing, and recently through the efforts of our "partners" it is the main thing, but the main task of the army remains the ability to resist the armed aggression of the regular armed forces of our partner countries (if this is not sarcasm, I will never understand it). What is the difference?

Have you seen an informal in a bulletproof vest and a protective helmet? Have you seen a NATO serviceman without personal armor-SIB? The chance of seeing this (he, she, it) without underwear is an order of magnitude higher. Plus unarmored, lightly or partially armored vehicles, including various robots. Plus, the new tactics of the same informals to increase the distance of fire contact and countermeasures taken by NATO, i.e., attempts to increase the effective range of the fire impact of NATO units. And the 5,45x39 cartridge, which the GRAU attempted from Afghanistan.

Sad. Moreover, the improvement of the NIB continues, and the cartridge is small, and for a long time, and the potential for increasing its capabilities has always been, to put it mildly, small. The development by NATO, or rather in the USA, of 6,5x39 Grendel cartridges (originally as sports cartridges) based on a 7,62x39 cartridge case, model 1943, and 6,8x43 SPC Rem. on sleeve 223 Rem. indicates the presence of such problems even for the armed forces of countries using the relatively more powerful 5,56x45 cartridge. The development and greater success of the 6,8x43 cartridge compared to the 6,5x39 cartridge (although it is somewhat worse in ballistics) are explained by the difficulties of adapting ammunition based on the cartridge case of the model 1943 of the year to the AR platform, despite the large number of attempts of this kind, to create a full-fledged a reliable working sample has not yet been possible.

The relevance of work in this direction is evidenced by the adoption by some countries of the 6,8x43 cartridge. Although this did not happen in the United States (the decision was postponed), due, I think, to the cessation of active hostilities. Well, everything is like ours: there is a war going on, we need this, this and that. OKRs are opening urgently, work is in full swing, everything is going on. The war ends - other people make their way into the leadership, funding is cut, etc., etc. From my point of view, the military version of the 6,5x39 Grendel cartridge produced in Russia would be the ideal ammunition for the Russian army machine gun.

Its advantages are excellent ballistics, the caliber is sufficient to create effective special ammunition, there is no capillarity characteristic of smaller calibers, plus a slight increase in barrel survivability with the same thickness of the bullet shell, and at the same time it is actually mastered in production, the production of barrels and civilian variants of the AK. That is, there is a base for testing combat options for the cartridge. AK cal stores are used. 7,62x39. And this means that weapons created for this cartridge, with minimal changes, can be produced for other ammunition created on the basis of this cartridge case and 9,3x39 and 7,62x39.

There are calls to revive the 6x49 cartridge, i.e. BC3. As a person who has worked a lot with these ammunition (BCS, BC3, BC6 and again BC3, and recently 6,7x49), I want to say - no need. 720 mm - barrel length to get close to the required V25. There is no tenacity at the trunk, despite the polygonal (life forced) cutting. The phenomenon of capillarity, again. And there is no production of components, and there are no imported analogues, and there are no civilian ones either, and this is both an export potential and just money. And machine gunners do not work at 1 meters. And the fighter wants to take more ammunition, and it is desirable that they be smaller and lighter. Yes, and the sleeves of the remnants of the needles have recently been re-pressed under 000x6,7 since that time, burned during the tests and calmed down.

No, I vote for the 6,5x39 Grendel, more precisely, for its Russian military version, and even if it is inferior to imported counterparts (technology, what to do), it will most likely meet the requirements for a promising ammunition for an army machine gun.

2. Scheme of automation


No, at this stage I will not impose a balanced automation scheme. The 6P38 assault rifle, recently adopted by special forces, with the exception of its “semi-breaking” receiver design, is structurally the same AEK that participated in the competition on the Abakan theme. Then the Nikonov machine gun won, whose great life ended before it even began. He was appointed the winner in order to justify the huge costs of work on the topic, since his performance characteristics, especially in terms of accuracy, were closest to those specified in the TOR, and at the same time, it was clear to any specialist, and even a non-specialist - “not a tenant”, and therefore, nothing threatened the hegemony of the AK.

The purpose of the work on the "Abakan" was the desire to get a machine gun for arming poorly trained (three rounds) conscript soldiers, and by no means special forces. The idea was that when firing from unstable positions (read - without a stop), the weapon would provide high accuracy when firing short 3, later - 2 ... 3, burst shots, almost regardless of the level of training of the shooter. That is, it was enough to teach a soldier to aim and shoot single shots.

As a result of the research, it turned out that for this it is necessary to increase the rate of fire of the weapon to such an extent that the inertia of the rest mass works (the mass of the weapon plus the reduced mass of the shooter), and the weapon does not have time to leave the aiming line during the shooting of 2 ... 3 needles. At the same time, the required calculated rate of fire was highly dependent on the recoil momentum and amounted to 4 ... 000 rds / min. for a 6-mm assault rifle of the classical design, in which the recoil impulse acted on the shooter, both from the shot and from the impact of moving parts on the butt plate of the weapon receiver.

The slowest rate was required for an automatic machine with “accumulated momentum” automatics; the shooter perceived the return only after the end of the queue. A machine gun with balanced automatics had an intermediate result - the shooter perceived recoil only from a shot. This scheme works best when using a low-impulse cartridge, when the recoil momentum from hitting the moving parts in the butt plate of the weapon is a significant part of the total recoil momentum. With an increase in the power of the ammunition, the effect of using this solution decreases.

In addition, in weapons with gas-operated automatics, the recoil momentum from a shot increases somewhat, because the effectiveness of the action of powder gases on the front wall of the gas chamber decreases or disappears, which not weakly reduces the recoil from a shot. The use of powerful DTCs is not a panacea, since the compensating moment for different positions of the shooter when firing requires a different compensation direction.

There was even a modification of the AEK with the so-called. "trombone" - DTK with a large number of compensation holes, which could be selectively blocked by a special switch that had 3 positions: "standing from the hand", "lying from the hand" and, in my opinion, "from the knee". The sample showed excellent results in design tests, but they shot at Rzhevka "like in battle", that is, by mixing up the switch positions. No more experimenting.

And another problem of the left shoulder - the DTK is designed to compensate for the drift of the barrel when firing from the right shoulder. If we analyze the advantages and disadvantages of a balanced automation scheme in comparison with the classics, we get the following picture. I deliberately talk about the advantages and disadvantages of the scheme, and not specific types of weapons made using one or another automation scheme. It makes sense to compare samples of weapons of different schemes only if they are made at the same design, technological and production level, and I'm talking about the genetics of schemes.

Advantages: high accuracy of automatic fire when firing from unstable positions in general (both short and long bursts, and continuous fire), which compares favorably even with a scheme with accumulated recoil momentum. all.

Moreover, shooting from the “standing with the hand” position is most often carried out towards the target, not so much to defeat, but to suppress enemy fire (oh, sorry, our “partner”).

Disadvantages:

- the worst accuracy of a single fire, due to the greater relative mass of moving parts and the greater number of parts moving relative to each other;

- a decrease in the effectiveness of the application of the scheme when using relatively powerful ammunition;

- the need to ensure a high rate of fire and, as a result, the need to use a cut-off mechanism for the length of the burst in the trigger mechanism;

– the desirability of using powerful DTCs;

– more complex, expensive to manufacture and, therefore, potentially less reliable in operation design;

- the worst weight and size characteristics;

- greater effort on the reloading handle and greater noise of this process.

And further. According to TSNIITOCHMASH - the worst accuracy of automatic fire in the prone position, although I don’t understand why, this information needs to be verified, which I am unable to perform (perhaps I confuse something).

At the same time, speaking specifically about the 6P38, structurally it is still an excellent machine, and after curing the inevitable when setting up the production of overlays - childhood diseases, it will probably become the best weapon in its class and calibers, if it does not fail the financial issue, and it will be possible to provide and maintain the quality of workmanship. In addition, this very “half-breaking” design of the receiver appeared within a very short period of time (in a fire order), as a result of an unexpected requirement for the creators of the machine gun to ensure the installation of a “picatinny rail” of a given length.

And to their credit, they didn’t blurt it out on the removable receiver cover - a good design school worked, but due to lack of time to develop and manufacture a sample, the existing solution is most likely not optimal and will most likely be finalized or changed in the process of serial production. And if, on the basis of this automaton, an automaton of the classical scheme is created ...

Although it's probably too late. But the unique developments in the balanced scheme of automation must be preserved and studied its capabilities and features of operation. Technology does not stand still. Perhaps, for example, at a new technological level, interest in ammunition with an arrow-shaped submunition will revive. And they have potentially very low recoil momentum.

Well, in general, I wanted to say that at this stage in the machine under the 6,5x39 cartridge I chose, I would prefer the classic automation scheme.

Dear reader, the most interesting thing that I could remember and write about, in general, is over. But there will be another final part, just now I have chosen a volume limit.
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246 comments
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  1. +5
    April 27 2022 19: 36
    Thanks, interesting as always.
    And yes, the trouble with cartridges must be solved right away. I don’t care what the cartridge will be, but even if it’s the same!
  2. -4
    April 27 2022 19: 38
    There is no better assault rifle than the AK103. Barnaul 7.62x39 is an excellent cartridge. Everything else is from the evil one.
    1. -1
      2 May 2022 13: 44
      Once, I assembled an AR-15 automatic carbine based on
      NN F/A Lower receiver, Vltor MUR Upper receiver, BCG - DD, Barrel - DD -5.56x45 - 10.3 inch (261mm), Noweske sws quad rail 9 inch, SilencerCo ASR, Magpul stock mil-spec CTR... - count assembled for their tasks on the knee from high-quality American parts from reliable manufacturers - an automatic carbine.
      With the Eotech XPS2-0, I shot perfectly both single and in bursts, Barnaul and Tula, up to 300 meters (I didn’t try to shoot further), chest targets were easily hit ... There were a couple of delays (misfires) when shooting due to the cartridge. Very warm memories of the carbine and the platform as a whole remained ... Compared to the AK-74M ... the choice is obvious for me ... if I ever pick up a captured M4, I will leave the AK in the pyramid.
      1. 0
        2 May 2022 16: 52
        It is unlikely that the sheep are due to the cartridge. For 18 years of using ak-shaped ones, there was not a single sheep. Basically Barnaul. 'Korea is the weakest on the count. Domestic capsule hard
        1. +1
          2 May 2022 18: 12
          With a little order...
          Last photo of my baby crying

  3. +18
    April 27 2022 19: 39
    Almost completely agree with the author. The main problem of the AK is frank shit gross cartridges. Throw at least a Serbian Partizan into it - and just be amazed at the difference. Not to mention better ones. An attempt to compensate for a shitty cartridge with design tricks is an occupation akin to masturbation ..

    As for Grendel, you had to shoot him. I also think that for us it is an almost ideal cartridge. Especially if you take into account the sleeve that is native to us. The transition to it - the Russian Federation will cost much cheaper than any other option. Why this issue is not being considered is a secret with seven seals.

    As for the AK body kit, this is not a question at all. It’s just that the most different is produced to the point of foolishness - choose to your taste and put it into service. An adjustable butt is a must, everyone's hands are different. As well as clothes in winter and summer. A T-shirt and a sheepskin coat still give different sensations .. Weaver on the receiver is a moot point. Painfully there are a lot of trabbles. IMHO - the side mount is somehow more reliable, although it weighs more. Weaver on the fore-end - on the one hand, it's a bit rough, but - then you need pads on the bars, or gloves. When shooting with a bare hand on a weaver, it is not very pleasant. And this one is all superfluous entities that are not welcome in the army. And in general - it’s worth at least once to drop the barrel in a full body kit of any minced meat into the mud - in order to understand that picking it out later from all the cracks and grooves is not at all a fun activity ..
    1. IVZ
      +7
      April 27 2022 20: 08
      "A huge number of accessories around the world have been developed for mounting on picatinny rails. If we develop something else now, these accessories will go to waste, and we will have to develop our own for a new bar and they will be applicable only here. In principle, I also think that Picatinny rail should be changed to something more suitable for the military user plus an adapter for the existing body kit as a temporary solution to the compatibility problem. But this is practically a political decision not on my level." Copy from previous article.
      1. +8
        April 27 2022 20: 20
        Yes, I'm not against weaver as such. I’m just not sure that they need to glue all the weapons on all sides .. Well, they won’t use all this wealth in the troops! Apart from special forces, of course. What foreman would entrust all these petty stray to a private? And who will be responsible for them? What ordinary will clean all this from dirt? In addition - IMHO, the same side crown is noticeably stronger and more reliable than mounting on the weaver on the lid. Even though it's harder...
        1. IVZ
          +5
          April 27 2022 20: 25
          Article here "AK-12 design features"
          April 24, 2022
          1. Aag
            +2
            April 27 2022 21: 22
            "...Recently adopted by special forces submachine gun 6P38..."
            Sorry, the GRAU table gives out a gas pistol... feel request
            1. IVZ
              +6
              April 27 2022 21: 46
              Automatic 6P68 "Kord". My typo.
              1. +1
                April 28 2022 00: 36
                Quote: IVZ
                Automatic 6P68 "Kord"
                At the beginning of 2018, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation adopted two pairs of assault rifles at once: Izhevsk AK-12 and AK-15 and Kovrov 6P67 (AEK-971) and 6P68 (AEK-973). The Kovrov models 6P67 and 6P68 will cost the state budget about 10 times more than the AK-74M. But the cost of the AK-12 is only slightly higher than that of its predecessor.
                Source: http://bastion-karpenko.ru/machine-a-762-6p68/ VTS "BASTION" AVKarpenko
                Is it really that price?
                1. IVZ
                  +2
                  April 28 2022 05: 51
                  Don't know. But most likely at the stage of development in the production of "balances" is not excluded. Of course, we can only talk about the price of the first batches.
      2. 0
        April 27 2022 20: 48
        Thanks, very interesting and informative! hi
      3. +2
        April 28 2022 08: 11
        Quote: IVZ
        the quality of its manufacture is highly dependent on the human factor

        hi
        And does it depend on the quality of the materials?
        In particular, the strength and corrosion resistance of the metal.
        The fighters complained that the weapons were rusting before their eyes.
        And the strength of the metal is a very important factor. Right?
        What do you say about this?
        1. IVZ
          +3
          April 28 2022 08: 30
          I know about the problems with the quality of the wire - it is stratified and finding a good non-trivial task. Metal rusting is most likely a factory coating quality issue. I can’t say anything about the non-compliance of the metal with the requirements of the ND for strength.
      4. 0
        April 28 2022 16: 05
        The piccatini side mount adapter looks like a "poker". However, if your mount is in the form of a rail on top, the adapter can be in the form of a gasket.
  4. +7
    April 27 2022 20: 17
    There is one small nuance - from about 92-93, the Russian "defense industry" ended, let's say, the margin of safety. Not in weapons, but in the "defense industry" itself - specialists began to leave, equipment began to wear out (in excess of the permissible), equipment began to be purchased not of the highest quality raw materials and consumables ...
    If you look closely at the chronology of weapon modifications, you can see that it was during the period of 92-95 that the most terrible design and technological changes were made in order to reduce the cost.
    Of course, this all manifested itself in civilian weapons. The quality of workmanship and materials used has fallen sharply.
    1. IVZ
      +11
      April 27 2022 20: 21
      This is not a nuance, and even a small one, but the essence of the problem. In addition, not only from the defense industry, but also from the relevant army structures.
      1. 0
        April 29 2022 10: 29
        There were jokes about the accidental creation of an eternal light bulb, the circulation of which was bought by a far-sighted company for a lot of money. We have the release of the eternal AK.
  5. -6
    April 27 2022 20: 45
    I even registered on the site for the sake of commenting because I was tired of local sofa experts - well, what else is there to grendel? Well, what's the other cartridge? - Another cartridge is immediately a replacement for magazines, and other related things - and in our time they simplified the AK12 due to the fact that for the shutter delay you need to change magazines - and this, for a second, is tens of millions of magazines. For this reason, all the best, as always, is the enemy of the good - until it stops at all, everyone will use 5,45 * 39 of which there are billions in warehouses and tens of millions of stores.
    Regarding the article - another article from empty to empty, where AK12 is only in the title, and 90% are the author's Wishlist
    1. +2
      April 28 2022 05: 40
      Quote from Whitefall
      Another cartridge is immediately a replacement for stores, and other related

      In the article:
      That is, there is a base for testing combat options for the cartridge. AK cal stores are used. 7,62x39.
      1. IVZ
        +1
        April 28 2022 07: 17
        In this particular case, the store will not need to be replaced.
        1. +1
          April 28 2022 07: 21
          Quote: IVZ
          In this particular case, the store will not need to be replaced.

          So am I about that.
      2. +1
        April 28 2022 11: 02
        Maybe I'm wrong, but is the taper of the Grendel sleeve smaller than that of 7,62x39? How then can you use stores under 7,62x39?
        1. 0
          April 28 2022 11: 07
          Quote from Diver0
          but after all, the taper of the Grendel sleeve is smaller than that of 7,62x39

          So it's not worse, so 5,45 will do. Donce is one thing. But this is IMHO, of course. Check with the author!
          1. 0
            April 28 2022 11: 32
            5,45 will not work for the simple reason that the diameter of the bottom of the sleeve is 5,45x39 - 10 mm, and 7,62x39 - 11,35 mm.))
            1. -1
              April 28 2022 11: 38
              Quote from Diver0
              5,45 will not work for the simple reason that the diameter of the bottom of the sleeve is 5,45x39 - 10 mm, and 7,62x39 - 11,35 mm.))

              I didn’t know, but this difference is completely leveled by the lack of one or two rounds. tongue
              1. +2
                April 28 2022 11: 47
                So they won’t fit in width for a normal chessboard)) In general, the magazine, despite its apparent simplicity, is an extremely important and difficult part of the weapon to work out. So a 7,62x39 magazine will only work if the case of the new 6,5x39 will fully match the 7,62x39 case, with the exception of a smaller neck diameter and a slightly longer case slope.
                1. -1
                  April 28 2022 14: 37
                  Quote from Diver0
                  So they won’t fit in width for a normal chessboard))

                  A difference of 1,3 mm will provide a normal checkerboard, just a little more sparse, imperfect two-row, as far as I remember, is also a normal technique.
                  Quote from Diver0
                  In general, the store, despite its apparent simplicity, is an extremely important and difficult part of the weapon to work out.
                  who argue.

                  Quote from Diver0
                  So the store is 7,62x39
                  Well, they determined that a smaller taper will not work, but with 5,45 it can grow together.
                  1. 0
                    April 29 2022 09: 48
                    In any case, this is a palliative. The magazine must be designed for a specific cartridge - period.
        2. IVZ
          +1
          April 28 2022 12: 53
          : "Perhaps I'm wrong, but the taper of the Grendel sleeve is smaller" - In the text of the article "No, I vote for the 6,5x39 Grendel, more precisely, for its Russian military version" When developing a combat version, the geometry of the sleeve must be coordinated with the source.
          1. -1
            April 29 2022 09: 51
            Given the slightly smaller volume of our case compared to the Grendel, what muzzle energy do you think you can squeeze out on a standard 415 mm barrel?
            1. IVZ
              0
              April 29 2022 10: 32
              Depends on the mass of the bullet and its muzzle velocity. Military-style bullets are usually three-piece, i.e. with a steel core, so there is less weight. and their speed is potentially higher.
              1. -1
                April 29 2022 11: 01
                Yes, how to calculate joules, I know)). Actually, the question is the following - is it possible to get about 2000 J at the output, as on 7,62x39, with our gunpowders, with a cartridge case volume smaller than that of Grendel? As for me, this is the lower limit of muzzle energy, which justifies the transition to this caliber.
                1. IVZ
                  +1
                  April 29 2022 11: 45
                  Yes, something around this 1900-2000 offhand and it turns out
    2. 0
      April 29 2022 17: 59
      Quote from Whitefall
      simplified the AK12 due to the fact that for the shutter delay you need to change stores

      The shutter delay was removed correctly. It does not speed up anything, but only creates confusion about how to send a cartridge at the moment: to jerk the shutter or press the delay lever.
  6. +1
    April 27 2022 21: 00
    respect to the author as a high-flying specialist and I agree that the optimal for this time is 6,5 by 39, here the savings are very decent
    1. +1
      April 27 2022 21: 14
      AK-12 is not so bad, but in my humble opinion it can be slightly improved, for example, remove the picatinny rail, you should not imitate Western fashion, and then for reference, it follows from the basics of geometry that for accurate and repeatable precision positioning of an object on a plane (for example this is a removable optical sight) six contact points are necessary and sufficient (three on the supporting surface and three above it) and plus one pressing force (probably any machinist is able to fulfill this condition even in the quality of ten microns)
      According to the cartridge, which is considered too weak for the current conditions, yes, indeed it is rather weak, but this is not critical, and in general, in addition to machine guns, there are a lot of other weapons, and there is no need to expand the range of tasks solved by machine guns, there are already a lot of them.
      and then, on the basis of a low-impulse 5.45 mm cartridge, you can create an automatic weapon with a high density of automatic fire, and if the cartridge is more powerful, then it is no longer there.
      1. IVZ
        +3
        April 28 2022 07: 26
        AK-12 is essentially an AK-47 modified and in some places even successful. Destroy an AK-47? Well, you have to try.
        1. 0
          April 28 2022 17: 04
          Once in some places (still the same Hansa) I suggested ratsuha at the level of tuning, to make the stock elastic at the root, which would lead to a toss up of the back of the machine in the presence of a recoil shoulder. This function can be implemented in another way, laying it in the design of the butt. Back toss synchronous with barrel toss. I was told to take care of my teeth. But everything is in moderation. In moderation.
        2. 0
          April 29 2022 10: 33
          For understanding, an example with a butt is a way to spoil, it is desirable to spoil negatively. Turn a bug into a feature. Recoil shoulder in butt-compensator.
  7. 0
    April 27 2022 21: 13
    with the exception of its "semi-breaking" receiver design

    The collimator sight is not on the cover of the receiver of the weight.
  8. +1
    April 27 2022 21: 18
    It is easy to read - the author thinks clearly and thereby clearly expresses his thoughts - this is a rarity.
    Regarding the topic:
    An increase in the mass and speed of moving parts leads to an increase in the impact on the recoil pad (butt block) perceived by the shooter, and for weapons using a low-impulse cartridge (read - small-caliber weapons), this component of the recoil momentum is the main one, surpassing in strength the recoil momentum from the shot itself. And if the recoil momentum from a shot can also be reduced by using DT or DTK, then only the use of a balanced automation scheme or an automation scheme with momentum accumulation in a weapon can save you from hitting the butt plate

    What you need - you need an intelligent theoretical physicist and, again, an even more intelligent programmer, who together can break the system into separate isolated mass systems, balance them mathematically, and then put them together with a program. That is, in fact, to digitize (simulate) the development process - a computer will help to weed out everything superfluous. This is the future - the sooner you do it, the better.
    This also applies to blue-collar workers. Working dynasties, pride in the enterprise, responsibility for the task assigned, the desire not to let down fellow workers (comrades, not drinking companions!), mentoring - in the current paradigm have sunk into the past, and attempts to revive all this have long been removed from the agenda.

    When I hear about strong working specialists, irritation always pops up - a strong specialist only means that there is no intelligent engineer nearby, because the worker sees the process, but the engineer with education does not. I’ll just explain my thought - early, for example, for smelting metal / glass, sensible working process temperatures were determined by eye, because the quality of the product directly depended on the accuracy of the temperature, which is why they were insanely expensive. But then, intelligent engineers invented a pyrometer and a thermocouple, and immediately the value of such working specialists (to determine the temperature by eye) fell sharply, because the devices coped with this no worse.
    So here - everywhere you need an intelligent engineer. This is how to build a house - a literate man keeps in mind all the components and the process of building a house in his mind, and always acquires everything and plans ahead of time, he has everything foreseen, he sees the process as a whole (like S.P. Korolev).
    And stupid, he always faces a bunch of problems that he did not foresee in advance (winter, as always, came unexpectedly), he does not see the process of building a house as a whole, but only individual details.
    1. IVZ
      +3
      April 28 2022 08: 51
      Normal production is a combination of normal equipment with normal management, specialists and workers. I don't understand what part is causing you irritation?
      1. -3
        April 28 2022 09: 03
        Normal production is a combination of normal equipment with normal management, specialists and workers. I don't understand what part is causing you irritation?

        I gave historical analogies. It is precisely the dependence of an enterprise on a first-class working specialist - it should not exist with first-class engineers. You need to be able to break complex systems into simple components.
        Let me give you an example of the construction by the West of the most technologically advanced factories in China. The West there has already come to the conclusion that for the normal operation of the plant, about 5 highly qualified engineers are required for, for example, the entire plant with 1 workers. And everything works there, including the production of iphone.
        1. +3
          April 28 2022 10: 57
          We remove the dependence of the enterprise on first-class workers, we get dependence on first-class engineers. And with those and with these we have a problem
    2. -1
      April 28 2022 17: 12
      The motivation of an intelligent engineer? Holy naive? After all, there is no leading idea. We have been saved by collectivism for centuries, and now personality is being cultivated. The ideal engineer most likely comes out of the worker.
  9. +1
    April 27 2022 21: 26
    the target audience of users is generally satisfied with the AK assault rifle (not the AK-12).
    target audience of users of the AK assault rifle (not AK-12) in general while arranges. As you correctly noted, the combat range is increasing, bulletproof vests are widely distributed, so the machine will have to be redone.
    Ergonomics – a classic at its best
    I would make a grenade launcher as a separate device.
    The fuse, in accordance with modern trends, is desirable on both sides, under the thumb, not tight and not noisy.
    Plus a lot! And the reload handle is also on both sides.
    And I would also like to increase the accuracy of fire and get a cartridge that is more suitable for modern conditions.
    Judging by YouTube, when shooting with American cartridges, the accuracy of the AK turns out to be no worse than that of the M-4.
    Moreover, in Soviet times, all 8 would have been rejected.
    Yes? And I thought that they only do this in hunting weapons.
    From my point of view, the military version of the 6,5x39 Grendel cartridge produced in Russia would be the ideal ammunition for a Russian army machine gun.
    And it seems to me that it is worth returning to 7.62, but with an optimized bullet and new, more powerful powders. What's the point of saving weight if you can't hit the most likely enemy (because of the range or because of his bulletproof vest). It is necessary to provide at least 3 kJ at the output so that the armor does not save from a knockout (at least). It won’t work out - make a new 7.62x51 (or even a new 7.62x54, if the welt with the magazine works out fine), compensate for the return due to the DTK (yes, noisy, smoky, but what to do?) And the bells and whistles of the butt (not just hang a "galosh" , but something like a recoil brake in artillery).
  10. 0
    April 27 2022 21: 51
    And why do we need ammunition with an arrow-shaped striking element? The ballistics of a traditional bullet can be improved by changing its shape, for example, getting rid of the flat bottom and making it more pointed.
    1. IVZ
      +2
      April 27 2022 21: 59
      Still better with a bottom notch. There is no radical improvement. Tolley is the shooter’s business, and the trunk is also smooth.
      1. 0
        April 27 2022 22: 09
        It is clear that there are technological difficulties, but getting rid of the flat bottom should still improve ballistics, as I see it.
      2. -1
        April 28 2022 11: 14
        Still, for a promising machine gun / ShV, I don’t see an alternative to sub-caliber shooters. Moreover, we have almost brought this development to mind (judging by the article by N. Dvoryaninov in the Kalashnikov magazine for 2018). The somewhat lower accuracy of fire is compensated by the excellent DPV, less wind drift, short flight time and the variant of salvo ammunition with 3 gunners. And given the higher kinetic energy density of the SPEL, then the SIBZ will not be good either. It's a pity that the topic died...
    2. +1
      April 29 2022 18: 06
      Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
      get rid of the flat bottom and make it more pointed.

      Based on a textbook on ballistics, this will reduce air resistance at supersonic speeds by a maximum of 15-17 percent. Maximum (theoretically) In reality, the gain will be less.
      And don't plagiarize my patents!
      1. 0
        April 29 2022 20: 43
        The racing gas generator gives a big increase. And it was not in my mind to encroach on a patent!
  11. 0
    April 27 2022 22: 48
    Of course, I didn’t understand much, because I’m not a specialist from the word at all. But I'll put in my two cents. As for the grenade launcher, as the practice of fighting shows, they try to use it separately from the machine gun using home-made butts ... but about accuracy and the assertion that clashes go at a distance, in my opinion they are only partially true. As for accuracy, I don’t know how this can help, given that often the shooting is carried out aimlessly, or even “where the thread and hit it” without looking. And as for the range, maybe this is the case for battles in the field, yes, there, the distances have increased a lot, but for some reason you have to fight more often among the walls where all the talk about the range becomes irrelevant.
    1. +2
      April 28 2022 04: 01
      In Mariupol, according to the participants in the events, the distance was reduced to 15 meters, and 50 meters is another front, another battle. But the paradox lies precisely in the fact that fighting with the same small arms forces the fighters to shorten the distance. The author writes about this that the reduction in distance is a consequence and the reason is the combat effectiveness of weapons at a greater distance. One problem breeds another. Even a small advantage in the effectiveness of small arms on the battlefield can have a large cumulative positive effect, greater variability in tactical decisions.
      1. -3
        April 28 2022 08: 36
        In Mariupol, according to the participants in the events, the distance was reduced to 15 meters, and 50 meters is another front, another battle. But the paradox lies precisely in the fact that fighting with the same small arms forces the fighters to shorten the distance. The author writes about this that the reduction in distance is a consequence and the reason is the combat effectiveness of weapons at a greater distance. One problem breeds another. Even a small advantage in the effectiveness of small arms on the battlefield can have a large cumulative positive effect, greater variability in tactical decisions.

        Why was little attention paid to the storming of Shushi by the Azerbaijani special forces, who were armed mainly with pistols and submachine guns, allowing them to shoot with one hand. Shusha has old buildings, fences and closely spaced buildings. With a fairly bulky weapon, it is extremely inconvenient to move over rooftops and rubble. You watch a video from Mariupol and you see how the fighters move through the ruins relying on one hand and it is difficult to use a machine gun in such a position quickly ... I repeat once again, the so-called "assault rifles", which include AK, are not assault rifles, this name bulldozers were invented by Hitler for the stormtrooper, he just liked brutal names. And the Sturmgever was a necessary measure for the Germans, who at the end of the war had problems with saturating the troops with automatic weapons. Our army had a significant advantage due to the excellent PPSh submachine gun, which simply created a fire storm at a distance of a real battle of 150-200 meters
        1. +3
          April 28 2022 09: 35
          Quote: Konnick
          And the Sturmgever was a necessary measure for the Germans, who at the end of the war had problems with saturating the troops with automatic weapons.

          The Sturmgever was developed by the Germans consciously, and not as a temporary measure. The first developments of an industrial cartridge for the future stormtrooper began with the Germans before the start of WWII. The purpose of this weapon (as seen by the Germans themselves) is the abolition of all other types of weapons at the department level, and the introduction of a single machine gun. Yes, the Nazis wanted to remove the MP-38/40 and even the MG34/42 from the squad, leaving only the STG.
          Quote: Konnick
          Our army had a significant advantage due to the excellent PPSh submachine gun, which simply created a fire storm at a distance of a real battle of 150-200 meters

          Our army after the Second World War, exactly to the millimeter, repeated the idea of ​​the Germans. We adopted the AK and ... removed the rifle / carbine, the submachine gun (PPSh / PPS) and even the rifle chambered machine gun from the squad level.
          1. -5
            April 28 2022 09: 59
            Our army after the Second World War, exactly to the millimeter, repeated the idea of ​​the Germans. We adopted the AK and ... removed the rifle / carbine, the submachine gun (PPSh / PPS) and even the light machine gun chambered for a rifle cartridge from the squad level.

            The composition of the squad of the 70-80s consisted of a commander, a machine gunner with a light RPK, a sniper with an SVD, a grenade launcher with an RPG, and the rest of the shooters with AKM.
            My opinion is that a modern squad should have a composition - a commander with PP and means of observation and communication, 4 shooters with SVD, 4 shooters with PP with means of communication and guidance of heavy weapons. It is necessary to fight in a modern war without engaging in contact combat.
            1. -2
              April 28 2022 11: 54
              A very specific department will turn out. With close contact 50-100 m, it will be instantly crushed by a squad with AK-74.
              1. -5
                April 28 2022 12: 58
                A very specific department will turn out. With close contact 50-100 m, it will be instantly crushed by a squad with AK-74.

                A detachment of WWII machine gunners with PPSh and 70-round discs will not give a chance to a detachment with AK-74 at 50-100 meters.
                1. -1
                  April 28 2022 20: 33
                  Please patent your idea! Since modern SHVs were probably created ...))
            2. IVZ
              +4
              April 28 2022 13: 20
              Did you coordinate your tactics with the enemy?
              1. -7
                April 28 2022 13: 44
                Did you coordinate your tactics with the enemy?

                Those. Did you coordinate your developments with a potential adversary? If you imitate, you will never catch up ... Now there is a war in Ukraine according to the method of conducting it, which looks more like WWI than WWII. Artillery and small arms play the main role ... obvious degression ... There are practically no air controllers, artillery observers and, accordingly, instrumental reconnaissance specialists in the units, only amateur performance in working with UAVs of linear units. At one time, the Wehrmacht had a connection with the Luftwaffe at the battalion level, sometimes a tank company had a direct connection to interact with attack aircraft.
                And the absence of separate sniper units in our army is nonsense. So we will fight with ersatz "assault" automatic rifles with an average cartridge and wildly spend these handicraft quality cartridges. Fight according to the canons of the First World War ... hi
          2. -5
            April 28 2022 10: 27
            The Sturmgever was developed by the Germans consciously, and not as a temporary measure. The first developments of an industrial cartridge for the future stormtrooper began with the Germans before the start of WWII.

            After the impossibility of creating a simple and reliable automatic rifle with a powerful cartridge from a conventional rifle was confirmed, they began to compose a cartridge of reduced power. But this cartridge, like our sample of 1943, was created specifically for a rifle or carbine, as the main weapon, which ABC and SVT did not become at one time. And only the appearance of a shortened version in the form of a Sturmgever inspired our military to such an option as the AK. The tactics of using this weapon was to shoot single at a distance of 300 meters, and when the enemy approached, use automatic fire. Cheap and cheerful to create a high density of infantry fire. Now they don’t fight like that .. with chains. Due to the huge saturation of equipment and powerful weapons of modern armies, there is no need for this type of weapon. We need high-precision small arms and self-defense weapons for vehicle crews and for special forces.
            1. +4
              April 28 2022 13: 35
              Quote: Konnick
              After the impossibility of creating a simple and reliable automatic rifle with a powerful cartridge from a conventional rifle was confirmed, they began to compose a cartridge of reduced power.

              Confirmed by whom, if not a secret? Maybe Simonov and Tokarev created bad automatic / self-loading rifles chambered for the domestic cartridge 7,62x54R? Maybe Garand was bad in semi-automatic under 7,62x63? Maybe the Americans, in a drunken delirium, adopted the M-14 after WWII under a brand new cartridge 7,62x51? And what about the "right hand of the free world" in the person of FN FAL? The possibility has been technically realized in a number of countries. The Germans even managed to adopt the wundurwaffe into service in the Luftwaffe under their own 7,92x57.
              Quote: Konnick
              The tactics of using this weapon was to shoot single at a distance of 300 meters, and when the enemy approached, use automatic fire.

              The tactics were tested empirically. Three German submachine gunners, firing in self-loading mode, showed higher efficiency in hitting targets than a machine gun crew (2 people) with MG34/42 in automatic firing mode.
              Quote: Konnick
              Now they don’t fight like that .. with chains. Due to the huge saturation of equipment and powerful weapons of modern armies, there is no need for this type of weapon.

              How are they fighting now? And how does a German tank division differ from a modern one in terms of saturation with heavy weapons? In 1944, the panzerdivision had (according to the state) 170 tanks, 46 self-propelled guns, 20 armored vehicles, 135 guns and a mortar, 288 armored personnel carriers ... Enormous firepower even by modern standards.
              Quote: Konnick
              We need high-precision small arms and self-defense weapons for vehicle crews and for special forces.

              And what to do with this high-precision weapon in short-term fire contact up to 200 m? And this is a battle in the city, a raid or repelling an attack on a column, cleaning up the enemy’s defensive lines after artillery preparation / air raid.
              1. -3
                April 28 2022 15: 14
                Three German submachine gunners, firing in self-loading mode, showed higher efficiency in hitting targets than a machine gun crew (2 people) with MG34/42 in automatic firing mode.

                Interesting, I haven't seen this information anywhere. And I doubt that the MG-34/42 with a 200-round belt is less effective than 3 Sturmgevers with a 30-round magazine and an aiming range two times lower. The effectiveness was that it was necessary to destroy three, and not one machine gunner. Those. the saturation of our troops with sniper weapons has reduced the use of machine guns to a minimum, the machine gunner is a priority target.

                Maybe Simonov and Tokarev created bad automatic / self-loading rifles chambered for the domestic cartridge 7,62x54R?

                Good, but tricky. Simonov converted ABC into SCS very successfully, the cartridge of 43 g of the sample helped. But loading clips is a tin. Here Garand with clips was better loaded.
                And what to do with this high-precision weapon in short-term fire contact up to 200 m? And this is a battle in the city, a raid or repelling an attack on a column, cleaning up the enemy’s defensive lines after artillery preparation / air raid.


                From my other comment
                - a modern squad should have a composition - a commander with PP and means of observation and communication, 4 shooters with SVD, 4 shooters with PP with means of communication and guidance of heavy weapons. It is necessary to fight in a modern war without engaging in contact combat
                .
                That's what SVD is for, you can fight with it at 100 meters, unlike bolt guns.
                1. +2
                  April 28 2022 21: 24
                  Of course, you can fight with the SVD at a distance of 100 m. Only with other things being equal, the shooter with the AK-74 will fill up the shooter with the SVD in 4 cases out of 5.))
                2. 0
                  April 29 2022 00: 58
                  Quote: Konnick
                  Interesting, I haven't seen this information anywhere.

                  I drew my stream of consciousness from a series of articles from here: https://vk.com/club205061310. I have never seen anything more interesting about Sturmgever on the net.
                  Quote: Konnick
                  And I doubt that the MG-34/42 with a 200-round belt is less effective than 3 Sturmgevers with a 30-round magazine and an aiming range two times lower.

                  Why? We take the practical rate of fire of the MG-34/42 per minute. And this is a maximum of 150 shots, because the handbrake, not the machine tool. Those. there is a movement of calculation, and taking a position / s, and searching for targets (not a shooting range all the same), and transferring fire, and reloading 50 cartridge belts from "cupcakes" (two reloads at least) or discharging a machine gun when changing position with subsequent loading . Yes, that's right, and not shooting from a box of 250 rounds in a trench. Three arrows with STG, even in self-loading mode, will easily give 40 ... 50 rounds per minute. But! With the same apparent practical rate of fire, these are three shooters, and not one with a machine gun. Yes, and the fire is more accurate - half of the bullets do not go anywhere near - everything is on target.
                  Quote: Konnick
                  Good, but tricky.

                  Capricious compared to what? With the forty-third hever, Walther G.41 and Mauser G.41? Or with FG-42? Yes, and the M1 Garand, of course, was inferior to the ABC-36 in terms of combat characteristics (15 rounds in the magazine, after all, and not 8) and was half a kilo heavier than the SVT-40.
                  Quote: Konnick
                  That's what SVD is for, you can fight with it at 100 meters, unlike bolt guns.

                  Of course it is possible. But only you will have to fight not against bolters, but against AK / AR with a practical rate of fire twice as high as that of the SVD.
    2. IVZ
      +5
      April 28 2022 08: 09
      Along the walls now more often, but not always. Arm yourself with a short-range weapon and the enemy will immediately force a fight at a distance. "Butt for a grenade launcher" is not homemade, but according to the stories of a participant in the 2nd Chechen, it is a really popular thing.
      1. 0
        April 28 2022 11: 23
        Quote: IVZ
        Along the walls now more often, but not always. Arm yourself with a short-range weapon and the enemy will immediately force a fight at a distance. "Butt for a grenade launcher" is not homemade, but according to the stories of a participant in the 2nd Chechen, it is a really popular thing.

        There are homemade butts, at least in the Armed Forces of Ukraine. In Mariupol, among the trophies were. And also, according to our fighters, the thing is very popular
    3. 0
      April 28 2022 19: 33
      If you need a grenade launcher separately from the machine, then copy the Amerovsky M79, which they used in Vietnam. Caliber 40 mm, pillow on the butt. We have a grenade without a sleeve - the barrel can not be broken. The Schwartz-terminator fired from it from the hand.
  12. 0
    April 27 2022 23: 33
    only internal or mortise pockets (not overhead) with valves - to make it easier to remove radioactive dust.


    There are mesh patch pockets and other types of pockets. The mesh itself in clothing textiles has been known since the 14th century (lace) and with the Industrial Revolution it has ceased to be in short supply.
    And not only from fabric, such pockets can be made - for example, from a perforated split from cattle skin waste, from a hairnet made from sheep or horse wool, plant fibers like copra or hemp, flax; not counting synthetic fabric or metal woven nets.
    1. IVZ
      +2
      April 28 2022 00: 21
      "There are mesh pockets and other types of pockets. The mesh itself in clothing textiles has been known since the 14th century (lace) and with the Industrial Revolution it has ceased to be in short supply.
      And not only from fabric, such pockets can be made - for example, from a perforated split from cattle skin waste, from a hairnet made from sheep or horse wool, plant fibers like copra or hemp, flax; not counting synthetic fabric or metal woven nets."
      Well?
      1. -1
        April 28 2022 00: 49
        Quote: ycuce234-san
        and with the Industrial Revolution it was no longer a scarcity.
        Quote: IVZ
        Well?
        If the pocket is dirty, you can not clean it, just tear it off and throw it away. Not a deficit.
        winked
        1. 0
          April 28 2022 02: 55
          Quote: Bad_gr
          If the pocket is dirty, you can not clean it, just tear it off and throw it away. Not a deficit.


          Exactly. Pockets are commercially available to replace ready-made pocket backing or pocket fabric. This is a consumable and a standard item, like shoe insoles. In the sewing industry, in general, there are pocket machines that cut only pockets.
      2. +1
        April 28 2022 02: 36
        The mesh or perforated plate for the pocket does not retain radioactive dust, the soil that spills out of them. It is possible, for example, to make a patch pocket from a mesh and thus still fulfill the requirement for the absence and non-accumulation of radioactive material in pockets.
        Most likely, for this reason, some external pockets of backpacks and bags are now made of mesh - dirt does not linger in them during operation.
        1. 0
          April 28 2022 05: 49
          Original approach! But still, the pocket often has to keep the contents, and the mesh, and even from the outside, will not provide this.
          But still interesting!
          1. +2
            April 28 2022 06: 24
            External mesh pockets, by the way, are also found on tourist backpacks operated in the field. Tourists do not particularly buzz like field bees that they are bad - they use things that do not need protection.
            But you can always additionally increase the thickness and density of weaving, and then the pocket will resemble something already familiar and very durable - a cargo net of motorcyclists or a string bag. You can’t put documents there, but much more is easy.
  13. +1
    April 28 2022 00: 58
    Good article, author, but in my amateurish opinion, somewhat one-sided.
    First, I disagree with this:
    No, I vote for 6,5x39 Grendel

    No, in the context of a machine gun, this is probably the best option, but do not forget that in addition to the “five” and “seven”, we also have the Orthodox 54th in service. And here, using for example 6,5x47, you can talk about a single cartridge. It can be produced in two (minimum) versions, a lightweight machine gun and a reinforced machine gun. You don’t have to bother with a small primer, leave the berdan, our PZ release a steel sleeve in 308 caliber. And in terms of weight, 6,5x47, losing to the grendel, outperforms the 54th, and which cartridges are consumed more, machine guns or machine guns, the question is.
    Well, I have doubts about the use of 6,5 for PPE. Oh, and it’s not in vain that shashniks are played with 6,8, but I don’t have such data.
    1. +2
      April 28 2022 08: 53
      It will be fun when the machine gun is stuck in the machine gun, and the machine guns are in the machine gun. And this will happen regularly.
    2. 0
      April 28 2022 19: 39
      6,5 mm in the USA is 6,8 mm in our country. It's like 5,56 and 5,45 mm. Some measure by the fields, others by the rifling of the trunk.
  14. +3
    April 28 2022 08: 13
    Well. What did they leave 100 years ago, i.e. from the 6,5 mm Fedorov cartridge, they came to that, though in a less powerful version. But everything is fine here, some experience has been gained on the required cartridge power.
    Well, as for the problems in the arms industry, they "thrive" in all industries. Now the EGE students are starting to rule the ball, then there will be remote workers. So let's have some fun.
    1. IVZ
      +4
      April 28 2022 08: 32
      Unfortunately, we are having fun and it looks like the banquet will continue.
    2. 0
      April 28 2022 08: 54
      They didn't come up with anything. At the moment, the best submachine gun cartridge is 5,45, and the grendel is not needed.
      1. 0
        April 29 2022 18: 12
        Quote: Droid
        Grendel is not needed.

        In short: the calculation shows that Grendel or 6,8 mm NGSW will cope with modern body armor. But due to a significant increase in recoil, that is, a deterioration in the accuracy of automatic fire. But it will NOT cope with the body armor already being developed.
        1. 0
          April 29 2022 19: 44
          Modern armor plates already hold .338 or 12,7 mm, just push this plate in place of the old one. But the same AK74 does this Grendel when firing from unstable and unstable positions, because it has better accuracy, it hits more often, and the area of ​​\u10b\u15bthat armor plate is XNUMX-XNUMX% growth.
          1. 0
            April 30 2022 11: 20
            AK74 does this Grendel when firing from unstable and unstable positions because it has better accuracy

            You are right, a person I have known and respected for a long time! To increase the penetration ability, it is necessary to increase the specific energy of the bullet, for this - to increase the speed, and in order not to increase the recoil momentum, it is necessary to reduce the mass of the bullet, and in order not to decrease the lateral load, it is necessary to reduce the caliber. There are no other options to break through the armor. Therefore, anti-tank armor-piercing shells have long turned into crowbars with a diameter of 3-4 cm and a length of already under a meter, and fly at a speed of 1500-1700 m / s. Strelkovka will have to follow approximately the same path.
            1. 0
              April 30 2022 11: 33
              If you manage to bring the shooter to mind, then this will be the very breakthrough in the shooter.
  15. 0
    April 28 2022 08: 59
    Quote: Droid
    It will be fun when the machine gun is stuck in the machine gun, and the machine guns are in the machine gun. And this will happen regularly.

    And someone says that the machine gun will not withstand firing a machine gun cartridge? It will be problematic to simply shoot bursts (shoot accurately) from a machine gun with a reinforced cartridge.
    1. +1
      April 28 2022 09: 51
      It will simply be possible to shoot only at point-blank range, because it will be impossible to accurately shoot a cartridge with a different ballistics for which the sight is not designed.
  16. +5
    April 28 2022 09: 09
    From my point of view, the military version of the 6,5x39 Grendel cartridge produced in Russia would be the ideal ammunition for a Russian army machine gun.

    Its advantages are excellent ballistics, the caliber is sufficient to create effective special ammunition,


    Ballistics? Could you tell me DPV on the chest? And then the calculation according to the data from the website of the Barnaul Cartridge Plant, for the ballistic coefficient G1 \u0,515d 0 and V825 \u452d 12 m / s, gives 74 meters, which is only 500 meters more than that of the AK0,03. Flight time at 1,5 m differs by ~500 s, and the only serious advantage is wind drift 5,45 times less at 7 m. What effective special ammunition are you going to create? There are tracers and armor-piercings in 6, although armor-piercings are practically not needed, 7N10M is quite enough, but since they scored on it, that is, XNUMXNXNUMXM.
    And what will you have to pay for a 1,5-fold lower wind drift? You will have to cut the BC by ~ 30%, the accuracy will worsen by 2-3 times in bursts, because the recoil momentum is at the level of 7,62x39 and, like a cherry on the cake, billions of money and decades of time for rearmament.
    1. IVZ
      0
      April 28 2022 13: 12
      I won't suggest. There are many versions of sports and hunting ammunition with different ballistics. What bullet will be developed for the combat version, I do not know. Not a patron. But if we assume the length of the bullet will correspond to the length of the bullet 7,62, and have an identical design, I predict its mass is about 5,7 grams. The initial speed is approximately 850 m / s. including by increasing the length of the barrel in calibers. At the same time, due to better aerodynamics with a close lateral load, the ballistic coefficient should be quite good. But I would prefer the opinion of a specialized specialist to my amateurish one.
      1. +2
        April 28 2022 14: 42
        Already was. In the early 60s, when choosing the caliber of a new automatic cartridge, the 4,5-mm, 5,6-mm and 6,5-mm options were worked out. Moreover, the boundary conditions were DPV on the chest of at least 410 m, the recoil momentum was not more than 0,5 kgf * s. Initially, the recoil impulse generally wanted no more than 0,42 kgf * s, but they were afraid for flatness and lethal action. The 6,5-mm cartridge (bullet weight 5,65 g) did not fit into the conditions; .
        1. IVZ
          +1
          April 28 2022 16: 38
          Times and circumstances are changing. And the NIS is improving and tactics are changing and combat experience reveals something.
          1. +2
            April 29 2022 08: 39
            No matter how the tactics change, but the need to hit more often and faster does not disappear, but becomes more and more acute. A 5,45 automatic will hit more often than Grendel, especially from unstable and unstable positions. According to NIB 5,45, it is also better because it hits more often.
        2. 0
          April 29 2022 18: 17
          Quote: Droid
          DPV on the chest is not less than 410 m, the recoil momentum is not more than 0,5 kgf * s.

          This is all that a caliber bullet is capable of. Better - just switch to sub-caliber ones.
    2. 0
      April 28 2022 23: 33
      And did you pay attention to the difference in the energy of the bullet and its stopping effect at comparable distances?
      1. 0
        April 29 2022 18: 20
        Quote: Izotovp
        And the difference in the energy of the bullet and the stopping effect

        Energy is not only mass, but also speed. By increasing the speed, both the problem of breaking through body armor and the lethal effect of a bullet are solved.
        1. 0
          April 29 2022 18: 53
          I remember perfectly the formula for kinetic energy). But a significant increase in energy in calibers up to 6 mm inclusive is 1000+ m / s. This immediately raises the question of gunpowder, barrels and ensuring the formation of the correct wound cavity in the target when hit from different distances. I'm not talking about the insufficiency of the stopping effect of a bullet in these calibers, which was also noted by many of us and them.
          1. 0
            April 29 2022 19: 05
            Quote: Izotovp
            a significant increase in energy calibers up to 6 mm inclusive is 1000+ m / s.

            Then what is the doubt? It is V0 = 1080m / s that NGSW 6,8mm bullets or our 6-49mm bullets have.
            1. 0
              April 29 2022 19: 12
              According to our cartridges 6x49, the author has already answered. American, let's see.
  17. +1
    April 28 2022 09: 18
    hi
    It is strange why for all "AK upgrades" they have not yet installed a spring-loaded cover for the receiver (receiver cover), which would cover the cutout for the bolt handle.
    With the "fuse removed" such a not weak hole is obtained ...
    Well, at least following the example of the Federal Tax Service, an example:
  18. -1
    April 28 2022 09: 23
    Quote: Article
    Moreover, the introduction of new equipment and attempts to use new technologies change little, the design is optimized for completely different technologies. And there’s almost nothing to be done, in the West, and anywhere else, the same thing is happening, but a course has long been taken there (however, as in recent times with us) to eliminate the influence of the human factor on the quality of products by introducing new technologies and optimizing for them weapon designs.

    This is where the main problem of AK lies, which few people realize. Design and manufacturing technology are inseparable. But the "times" of stamping presses are passing, and they are being replaced by CNC machining centers. It is impossible to achieve any changes in the quality of a product without changing the technology. On the other hand, the requirements for the production of super-mass circulations are also less and less relevant: there is a lot of reserve in warehouses, and fewer and fewer personnel use the riflemen directly in battle in percentage terms, and the aircraft themselves are "optimized". In this regard, I believe that it was possible to continue producing the 100th series without trying in "AK, but a little better." The increase in qualities is simply meager, and there were no complaints, in fact.
    But it's new ... it must be really new. New cartridge, new design, new technological processes. But only if it together will give a sufficient increase in characteristics for the validity of such a transition. I think that, by and large, the 39th case is already "retired" and it's worth looking in the direction of the AR 45th or 51st Win. Doing something "unique" here is not worth it for a huge number of reasons. And for these cartridges, what has not been invented before us, all this diversity needs to be creatively processed and adapted to our realities. Yes, in the beginning it will turn out "as always", but it may still be at least in the end it will be "better".
    Separately, I would like to know what the author thinks about the microwave rifle as a base for building a combined arms model for existing and promising cartridges.
  19. +1
    April 28 2022 09: 40
    a little gag about the times, customs and quality control department ... in the mid-2000s, I received the 74 RPK-1993M for use. in factory lubrication, the fly did not go and woo on this product. With incomplete disassembly on the gas piston, I saw a cavity a millimeter deep, I was surprised a lot. The weapon worked properly, but the sediment worried.
    1. +1
      April 28 2022 10: 20
      Regarding balanced automation, it should be noted that if the geometry and kinematics of the movement of the moving parts of the shutter are not symmetrical, for example, in an AK above the barrel there is a movable and weighty part, a piston in the amount of one piece, this means the kinematics is not symmetrical, during automatic firing, moments of inertia arise that cause the machine to oscillate in vertical plane, it is completely impossible to eliminate them using a rack and pinion (the theory of mechanics does not allow), well, you don’t need to fence the gear mechanisms in the machine, remove the gas piston from above and install two on the sides, symmetry will appear and the machine will stop tossing, by the way here an example from engine building will be appropriate, in an in-line three-cylinder engine, the extreme pistons always move in one direction, and the middle one in the other, the symmetry of the kinematics is observed and the vibrations are minimal
      1. IVZ
        +2
        April 28 2022 12: 26
        Are you so sure of what you write? Checked? No, the aplomb is of course magnificent, but can such valuable conclusions still be expressed in the form of an assumption?
        1. 0
          April 29 2022 18: 22
          Quote: IVZ
          Checked?

          And I wonder if anyone tested this "idea of ​​an outsider"?
  20. +2
    April 28 2022 11: 04
    Dear author, I forgot to mention the weight of this cartridge is 15g, and the weight of the cartridge is 7,62x39-16g. There is no gain in weight B / C.
    The recoil momentum of 6,5x39 is comparable to 7,62x39, so what is in this cartridge for which it is worth switching to 6,5x39 and what cannot be obtained by modifying the 7,62x39 cartridge?
    And why do you say that for a soldier shooting at 1000m. from the machine is an extra option? In the presence of a cartridge, a barrel and optics that allow this - a single fire, the soldier will gladly use the "long arm". If for balanced automation, the 6x49 cartridge is too powerful, then why not switch to A.F. Baryshev's scheme. if it works in a grenade launcher and a rifle, then it will cope with 6x49. By the way, the weight of the cartridge is 6x49-16 gr.
    If water comes out of the barrel under 5,45, then why will it become a problem at 6mm? This becomes a problem for a barrel with a caliber of less than 5mm. By the way, including for this reason, the Angles abandoned the 4,85mm caliber. Regarding the survivability of the barrel, maybe the whole thing is not enough quality steel? After all, it’s not just that the Lobaev company. And the same ORSIS make trunks from steel made-in-not ours. Let me remind you that when switching to caliber 5,45, the survivability of the barrels did not even reach 2000 shots, but they did it and pulled it up to 10000. But the optics on the machine are needed and there is no need to think pejoratively about your soldiers, about "Krivorukov Van", which is all he will break and he should not be given anything that is less durable than scrap. A soldier needs to be taught not only "right shoulder forward", then there will be a return.
    1. +1
      April 28 2022 17: 47
      Quote: oleg2016.sever
      and you don’t have to think pejoratively about your soldiers, about the “Krivoruk Van”, which will definitely break everything

      the soldier has long turned from a slave, which can be stuffed into an armored personnel carrier for free and sent head-on, into a professional combat unit that does not serve for a couple of months after training, and it would be strange not to equip it with adequate means.
      Optics is needed, though not only optics - the electronics for it are no less important - thermal imagers, computers, night vision devices, automatic rangefinders, communications, etc.
      In general, it is worth thinking about a radically different machine for "meat", like a brand.
      Any rookie can learn this quickly and use it normally. Calibration and zeroing is not needed - a constructive nuance.
      Although now the infantry is increasingly reduced not to attacking units, but to reconnaissance and defensive ones, and with a bias towards urban battles.
      1. 0
        April 29 2022 18: 25
        Quote: yehat2
        Calibration and zeroing is not needed - a constructive nuance.

        How's that?
        1. 0
          4 May 2022 13: 51
          read it, everything is done there on a single element, it simply cannot disperse, therefore all brands have already been "shot" constructively.
          1. 0
            8 May 2022 18: 36
            Quote: yehat2
            everything is done on a single element, it simply cannot disperse

            On AKM and AK74, both the front sight and the aiming bar are also on a single element - on the barrel. The bar - through the block of the sight, the front sight - through the base of the front sight. But you have to constantly lead to a normal battle: the barrel wears out and the speed of the bullet drops, the aiming bar and the front sight are deformed from random blows. Therefore, they were too smart with Tavor.
    2. 0
      April 28 2022 23: 36
      BC 7,62 does not improve. 6,5 is better and significantly better in this respect.
  21. 0
    April 28 2022 11: 53
    Thanks, good article. On the issue of ammunition, as well as their development .. In the American already unfriendly States, the army takes new ammunition from almost ready-made ones that come from the private sector, shooting enthusiasts, athletes, small manufacturers experiment with ammunition, and new calibers for sports shooting and hunting. And rightly so, in my opinion. In Russia, the opposite is true, unfortunately. In sports and in hunting, there are ammunition sourced from the aircraft, which are gross, of poor quality. The difference in accuracy between a gross cartridge and a loaded one on its own is significantly different. Tested on my own experience..
    1. 0
      4 May 2022 14: 16
      Quote: AlexFly
      States, the army takes new ammunition from almost ready-made ones that come from the private sector ... And this is right, in my opinion.

      amateurs have little opportunity to create high-tech ammunition, such as cartridges recessed into the sleeve, paper sleeves, etc., i.e. it is unlikely that amateurs will create any kind of breakthrough.
      In addition, the US Army has a real headache with a zoo of calibers.
      In one compartment, there can easily be cartridges of more than 10 DIFFERENT standards.
      For example, a pair of Colts 5.45 NATO, a 6.5mm light machine gun, pistols, a pump-action shotgun, 2 Rifle Scouts with their own ammunition, etc. (this is me describing the unit of the national guard)
      And they usually drive a Hummer, where there is a machine gun with a 12.7 caliber.
      What army other than the United States can afford to supply such a zoo?
      In most European countries, there are 1-2 different calibers in the infantry squad, sometimes 3-4 are found. Some unification is reduced so that they generally have 1 caliber.
      Here, for example, the French with their armor-piercing cartridge use p90, a 5-7 pistol and a machine gun for the same cartridge.
      1. 0
        4 May 2022 17: 43
        Just "amateurs" create interesting directions in ammunition, which small developers pay attention to, and then further down the chain ...
        1. 0
          5 May 2022 11: 32
          well, what? maximum some kind of body kit or bullet boring
          amateur private traders sometimes even have their own arms companies and not a small production base, but even with this, they are forced to earn money and survive with minor improvements.
          And few people are capable of taking risks and doing something radically new.
          1. 0
            5 May 2022 18: 30
            Does long range mean anything to you? People are also experimenting there, so both creedmoor and SPC appeared at one time ..... private traders started, but it turned out very, very well ...
  22. 0
    April 28 2022 14: 04
    since in such disputes everyone tries on the situation "for themselves", then, perhaps, it would not be bad for soldiers to have a personal choice of weapons for "regular" submachine gun or rifle and machine gun cartridges
    1. IVZ
      +1
      April 28 2022 16: 36
      The constructor does not have the right "under itself" only under the main user.
      1. 0
        April 28 2022 17: 23
        yes, claims and not to the designers, it’s already clear that it’s impossible to cross the “snake and hedgehog”; moreover, we are not even talking about a "long-range" shot (at a distance of more than 400m), but about penetration; so the 6x49 you mentioned (with a barrel length of 720mm) in the bullpup format, without automatic fire and with increased barrel wear, can and there is a suitable pair for the 5.45x39 AK family
        1. 0
          5 May 2022 11: 42
          now there is an improvement of shooting for urban combat in order to significantly improve the effectiveness in this difficult form of combat. it is for this that many improve weapons. For example, the US is developing a light machine gun for similar conditions. So, it is still not clear whether such a cartridge is good in the city
  23. 0
    April 28 2022 15: 28
    Very interesting, what does the author think about the AK 15 under 7.62x39?
  24. 0
    April 28 2022 17: 40
    very interesting article, thanks!
    but let me point out some things that have fallen out of attention
    firstly, what is a modern machine gun (or assault rifle) - it’s a conditional ak or ar-ka, but it allows you to shoot exactly at 400 meters, and also has modern integration things, like on a brand (for example, it doesn’t matter whether it’s left or right), folding stock, mounts.
    From this imperative, a serious improvement in the quality of the barrel, cartridge and quality of gunpowder follows as an axiom. Without it, nowhere, nowhere at all. In addition, the automation scheme should already be redone according to the NK416 type. You can continue to list the details, but in general, 2 simply extremely important things are clear - a radical improvement in the quality of workmanship, well, at least the barrel and gunpowder. This will already give a qualitative leap, even without engineering research. And another consequence - all questions to the production workers.
    True, the author described what kind of darkness is going on in production and I just don’t understand - what the hell is going on there? Is there bath accessories or a product critical for the defense of the country?
    1. 0
      April 28 2022 19: 26
      Quote: IVZ
      Are you so sure of what you write? Checked? No, the aplomb is of course magnificent, but can such valuable conclusions still be expressed in the form of an assumption?

      Any statement based on the laws of symmetry has the force of an axiom (these are the foundations of logic) and does not even require proof, let alone verification in practice (although an experiment is never superfluous)
      And again to the question of increasing the power of the machine cartridge, let's look at the root of the issue, in the instructions to teach shooting in a short burst of 3 shots, and why not with one shot ?. and the probability of hitting is higher if, on the contrary, automatic fire is, as it were, not needed, and since we are talking about probability, then we need to think about how to increase it, this can only be achieved by reducing the dispersion in a series of shots, and since the fighter does not shoot from the machine, but from the hands, it means he needs a cartridge with low recoil and 5.45 is the best suited to reduce dispersion
    2. 0
      April 29 2022 18: 27
      Quote: yehat2
      the scheme of operation of automation should already be redone according to the type NK416

      Then, according to the type of SVT, a piston with a short stroke was used in it before.
      1. 0
        4 May 2022 13: 52
        Quote: Svateev
        according to the SVT type, it used to have a piston with a short stroke

        maybe so, not strong in the history of firearms.
        but the essence of the changes is quite clear
  25. 0
    April 29 2022 02: 37
    Here you need to find out why you need a powerful cartridge. When shooting at point-blank range, the usual one will suffice. But when shooting at a distance, you also need to hit. For example, how many shooters do you need to suppress a machine gunner in a city or mountains with a given accuracy? At the moment, the theoretical limits of traditional schemes have been reached. But fortunately, in the eighties, the designer B. found a scheme that gives clear advantages. The theoretical study of this scheme was missed due, apparently, to the neglect of B., as a person not of his circle.
    1. IVZ
      0
      April 29 2022 07: 20
      The Baryshev system is a combination of semi-free locking with sequential roll-out of moving parts. Disadvantages - shooting only from the rear sear (otherwise there will be no roll-out), sensitivity to pollution, a problem with a long shot.
      1. 0
        April 29 2022 09: 19
        And how often is the phenomenon of a prolonged shot and how does a machine gun, for example, which also shoots from the rear sear, cope with it? If the cartridge is not initiated when rolling out, then it will be sent and the shutter is closed. If after that the cartridge is pricked with an additional trigger, then it will fire without rolling out. In this case, the conditions of the first shot in the queue will differ from the subsequent ones. You can give preference to the first shot, or the rest of the queue. Shooting in deuces can be disadvantageous. This requires two methods of impalement and a selector.
        A quick first shot is needed only at a dagger distance, where accuracy is almost not required.
        Sensitivity to contamination occurs with precise fitting of parts. As far as I can tell, Baryshev's design allows for backlash and inaccuracies.
        1. 0
          April 29 2022 18: 38
          Quote: surok1
          A quick first shot is needed only at a dagger distance, where accuracy is almost not required.

          It's not about speed, it's about accuracy. When moving from the rear position, the shutter knocks down the aiming of the weapon and you will not get a sniper shot. Therefore, from a PC, for example, shooting single shots is not recommended: there is no accuracy and the probability of hitting with one cartridge is small. But from a closed AK shutter, a single shot and the first shot of the queue is accurate.
      2. 0
        April 30 2022 11: 30
        You probably understood that what I wrote is thoughts out loud, free from a patent. I won't do it. And if not you, then no one.
      3. 0
        27 May 2022 09: 02
        After a rather long search for information, I found specific claims to the Baryshev assault rifle, which are worth something. This is the sticking of varnished shells to a red-hot chamber.
        In this regard, I thought that coating the case with a thin layer of paraffin could solve the problem. Actually, dissolve the candle in gasoline and dip the cartridge there. It has only one function - lubrication, the quality of the coating does not matter.
        Before that, I thought that the reliability of PM automation was achieved by expanding the chamber. But there the barrel is not hot.
        If you'd like to see a couple of freehand drawings that might be helpful, send your address to [email protected] .
    2. 0
      April 29 2022 08: 45
      The Baryshev system does not provide any significant advantages. Improving the accuracy of automatic fire by 2-3 times is completely insufficient, and worsening the accuracy of the first round of the burst reduces the chance of hitting.
      1. 0
        April 29 2022 09: 28
        There are many samples of various weapons in the world (from machine guns to machine guns) firing from the rear whisper, although there are no sniper rifles among them, but they don’t shoot bursts of them, and the machine gun is mainly designed for automatic shooting, and if so, then the disadvantages inherent in the rear sear in automatic weapons do not appear, but the advantages of this mechanism are fully manifested, and since we have a low-impulse cartridge 5.45x39, then we should think about how to create an automatic machine with a free shutter. Weapon authorities usually tell us that this is impossible, such as a cartridge, rifle powder burns in it for a long time, so the mass of the shutter is required to be too large, this is true for a shutter blank made by analogy with a hammer blank, but there is a whole science of impact theory (quite complicated considers about two dozens of impact theories) and so, relying on it, you can make a free shutter with a rebound time from the bottom of the sleeve with a duration equal to the duration of the shot, while without a significant increase in its mass, Such a shutter will have the simplest form of a cylinder with even ends
        1. 0
          April 29 2022 09: 51
          The Baryshev shutter combines two methods of restricting the movement of the bottom of the sleeve - a lever "accelerator" (it accelerates the drive mass of the shutter and slows down the bottom) and a rigid limitation of the stroke of the "compensator". So a sleeve with such a shutter will never burst with gas.
          "Accelerator" and "compensator" is one detail. It transmits the force from the bottom of the sleeve and subtracts from it the momentum of the parts of the shutter moving forward.
        2. 0
          April 29 2022 14: 24
          The assault rifle has the highest probability of hitting the first bullet of the queue, the accuracy of the remaining bullets leaves much to be desired and the improvement by 2-3 times does not greatly improve the situation, but the deterioration in the accuracy of the first bullet worsens the situation.
          1. 0
            4 May 2022 19: 29
            What if the target is moving? I read that aiming at close and not very distance reduces the efficiency of shooting.
            1. 0
              5 May 2022 18: 05
              Anyway. The deviation of the first bullet in the queue from the aiming point is the smallest and therefore the probability of its hit is the greatest.
              1. 0
                6 May 2022 08: 21
                Rapid shooting offhand is not very conducive to high-quality aiming. With aiming quality comparable to dispersion, the factors balance out. When developing the skill of rolling out shooting, it is quite possible to achieve quality, because the return is stereotyped. And again, you can organize the first shot from a closed bolt, there are not many obstacles to this. Complication? Yes, but in moderation.
          2. 0
            4 May 2022 19: 32
            What if the target is moving? I read that aiming at close and not very distance reduces the efficiency of shooting.
        3. 0
          April 29 2022 18: 54
          Quote: agond
          and the machine gun is mainly designed for automatic shooting

          The manual for the M16-/M4 says to shoot single shots as a rule. And now we have more and more single shots, since the dispersion of the burst is too large, further than 150-200m the burst adds little to the probability of hitting. And it is very good that AK allows you to make the first or single shot accurate.
        4. +1
          April 29 2022 18: 56
          Quote: agond
          it is possible to make a free shutter with a rebound time from the bottom of the sleeve with a duration equal to the duration of the shot, while without a significant increase in its mass

          Will it be possible to shoot from a closed shutter?
      2. 0
        April 29 2022 18: 48
        Quote: Droid
        Improving the accuracy of automatic fire by 2-3 times is completely insufficient

        Not enough? We look:
        For the best submachine gunners: single Vv=0,04cm, Wb=0,02cm, subsequent bullets Vvtotal=0,06cm, Vbtotal=0,08cm. That is, if the accuracy of subsequent bullets is reduced by a factor of three, then it will become no worse than the accuracy of the first (single). Why "completely not enough"?
        1. +1
          April 29 2022 19: 48
          You have not three, but 9 times. Accuracy has always been measured and compared with us by area core.
          1. 0
            April 30 2022 11: 25
            Quote: Droid
            Accuracy with us has always been measured and compared by the area of ​​​​the core.

            Sorry, didn't realize.
    3. +1
      4 May 2022 14: 01
      Quote: surok1
      At the moment, the theoretical limits of traditional schemes have been reached.

      I'm sorry, but this is a frank distortion.
      yes, ballistics cannot be radically improved, because the power of the cartridge is limited, but for the last 30 years there has been an active improvement in the accuracy and ease of use of the rifle.
      The reaction time, and reliability, and the rate of fire, and accuracy, and many other important parameters are growing. They are already creating bullets that are capable of steering. A lot of layout solutions have been tried. And the theoretical limit is still far enough away.
      Now the US infantry is already receiving assault rifles, unpretentious as Kalash and allowing with optics to conduct semi-automatic fire at 400 meters.
      For reference, SVD snipers are not recommended to shoot beyond 300 meters in order for the shot to be reliable (although the rifle allows quite a kilometer).
      Those. the shooter continues to develop, although it has already found a number of serious limitations.
      Perhaps a fire monitor or reactive bullets will increase the power of the shot
      and then there will be another rapid growth.
      perhaps there will be another leap in the quality of gunpowder, which will allow more intensive firing over long distances and more accurate placement of the first bullet.
  26. 0
    April 29 2022 11: 11
    Quote: Droid
    The Baryshev system does not provide any significant advantages. Improving the accuracy of automatic fire by 2-3 times is completely insufficient, and worsening the accuracy of the first round of the burst reduces the chance of hitting.

    I "adore" you, like honey, so also with a spoon! The ideal machine gun shoots powerfully and does not move, and if desired, it folds up and stows in a pocket. An ideal machine can be put on automatic tracking, and you can eat and sleep yourself.
    1. 0
      April 29 2022 14: 27
      Is there really anything to write about? Or, as soon as you were pointed out that improving accuracy with automatic fire is completely insufficient, and the deterioration in accuracy of the first bullet has a negative effect, did you run out of arguments?
      1. 0
        April 29 2022 15: 40
        It naturally has a negative effect. But it is necessary to look at the degree of negativity. Excuse me, you have a cycle of negativity in nature. Suggest an alternative. I honestly said where the problem is, and you inflated it without even understanding the essence. The difference in accuracy of the first shot in the Baryshev system can be normal for all AK shots. That is, this deterioration is not relative to AK, but relative to Baryshev.
        1. 0
          April 29 2022 16: 36
          It would be more correct to say - Baryshev's shutter, of course, his shutter is the top engineering thought, but unfortunately there were no followers, and on the other hand, this complex manufacturing device has an open mechanism and therefore can become clogged, but you can go the other way and collect a free jam with a stretched rebound time is much simpler and more reliable, such a device can be a hollow hermetically sealed cylinder in which there are movable loads one or more separated by springs, the rest of the free space is filled with oil or inert gas (the first USSR patent on this principle, dated 1957 is true there was not a shutter, but a special drummer with an increased rebound time, but this does not change the essence) and so such devices can be non-separable, completely sealed and very difficult to break if only put on a rail and hit it with a sledgehammer
          1. 0
            April 29 2022 16: 58
            Similar was offered on the Hansa. Free gate hydraulic shock absorber. We crowd tried to bring the idea to mind. It turned out not bad, but smooth on paper. You know, there were special firms that tested things for reliability. The machine pressed buttons, laid out sofas, slammed doors thousands of times... To put a mark of quality. This is what is missing. It's unconventional.
            And if you look at the shutter, is it fundamentally lever locking? Maybe rocker is better? It doesn't hurt to try either. The main thing is the principle. Baryshev is also stability.
          2. 0
            4 May 2022 14: 06
            Quote: agond
            so such devices can be non-separable, completely sealed and very difficult to break if only put on a rail and hit it with a sledgehammer

            You very quickly had an idea how to break it, and conscripts are much more inventive)))
        2. 0
          April 29 2022 19: 56
          Suggest an alternative.

          An alternative to what? Experienced sample? Everything is exactly the opposite, Barshev's weapon does not pull on a serious alternative to the same AK74.
          That is, this deterioration is not relative to AK, but relative to Baryshev.

          About AK. The first shot from an open bolt greatly worsens its accuracy. And the probability of hitting the first bullet of the queue is the largest, moreover, it is usually generally greater than the total probability of all subsequent shots.
          1. 0
            April 29 2022 20: 58
            You didn't read my suggestions.
            1. 0
              April 30 2022 08: 27
              What are your suggestions? A casually expressed desire to make the first shot from a closed shutter? How will this be implemented and what will it lead to? Maybe not in vain Baryshev did not make this option?
              Oh yes. Even if we put up with the complication and other disadvantages of this solution, we again come to where it all started - improving accuracy by 2-3 times (even with the first shot from a closed bolt) is completely insufficient to switch to a new design, it is necessary to improve accuracy to 10 times from unstable positions.
              1. 0
                April 30 2022 11: 16
                10000 times better, right? You are incorrigible. Be grateful for the double, from the unstable ones, besides. When correcting early shortcomings.
                1. 0
                  April 30 2022 11: 35
                  You would read something on the topic, for example, Dvoryanova or Shereshevsky with Gontarev. There you would learn about the optimal dispersion of the queue and would not write nonsense. Well, read about the Abakan competition.
                  1. -1
                    April 30 2022 14: 35
                    Mosinka - Strength! Automatic - du_ak, mosinka - well done!
              2. 0
                5 May 2022 05: 17
                We cannot guess why Baryshev did not fire from a closed bolt. We can't even ask why now. Maybe economy, maybe perfectionism, maybe lack of development time... The shutter is made extremely cheap.
                What if the first shot didn't hit? What if you need to suppress? What if the target is moving? You can get into it only statistically, with some probability. Accuracy, especially at a distance, increases this probability. This is the written truth.
                1. 0
                  5 May 2022 18: 10
                  We cannot guess why Baryshev did not fire from the closed bolt.

                  There is no need to assume anything, based on the design and operation of automation, the problems are already clear.

                  What if the first shot didn't hit? What if you need to suppress? What if the target is moving? You can get into it only statistically, with some probability. Accuracy, especially at a distance, increases this probability. This is the written truth.


                  I already suggested that you read Shereshevsky and Gontarev "Efficiency of shooting from automatic weapons." All these questions are answered there. Improving accuracy by 2-3 times with bursts does not give any significant increase in probability, and the first shot of a burst from an open bolt reduces this probability.
                  1. 0
                    6 May 2022 08: 07
                    hi You probably mean the arguments from the article https://topwar.ru/23488-rasseivanie-vystrelov-negodnyy-sposob-kompensirovat-oshibki-pricelivaniya.html?

                    In particular: [quote] "...- the first bullets of all bursts fall in a heap - in the area of ​​​​the center of the target in a circle no more than 5 cm;
                    - the second bullet of each line falls by the target - above the left shoulder of the target, the area of ​​dispersion of the second bullets is larger than the area of ​​dispersion of the first bullets;
                    - the third bullet of each queue again hits the target, but the third bullet is already scattered along practically the entire target;
                    - all subsequent bullets of the queue are scattered randomly in the target area and their probability of hitting the target is extremely small. [/quote]

                    The article talks about the quality of sights and that it would be nice to have a portable rangefinder and ballistic computer.

                    Have you concluded that if firing a burst of more than two or three rounds is ineffective, then the accuracy of the burst does not matter? Or maybe, with an increase in accuracy, the queue can be increased to six or nine rounds (with an increase in density, and therefore probability)? Or increase the effective range of fire? Everyone understands to the extent of their depravity. Where the sniper is powerless, when the target moves chaotically, the machine gunner comes into play. The machine is ideally two in one.

                    [Quote = Droid] No need to assume anything, based on the design and operation of automation, the problems are already clear. [/ Quote]

                    Everyone understands the extent of their depravity. hi Practice is needed.
                    1. 0
                      6 May 2022 17: 22
                      You probably mean the arguments from the article


                      I mean the book "The Efficiency of Shooting from Automatic Weapons", which I wrote about.

                      Have you concluded that if firing a burst of more than two or three rounds is ineffective, then the accuracy of the burst does not matter?

                      I don't need to attribute your fantasies to me. I didn’t write anything about the fact that accuracy doesn’t matter, I wrote that improving accuracy by 2-3 times (in terms of core area) gives a meager effect, and worsening accuracy of the first shot of the burst, due to firing from an open bolt, reduces to not even that is a tiny improvement.
                      Do you even know what is the accuracy of firing in short bursts from the AK74 from a standing position by ordinary soldiers? The dispersion core (rectangle/square including the best half of hits) has an area of ​​2,5-3 square meters at a distance of 100 m. meters will give an increase of 2% -3% in probability (AEK confirms), but the first shot from an open bolt spoils everything.
                      Or maybe, with an increase in accuracy, the queue can be increased to six or nine rounds (with an increase in density, and therefore probability)?

                      Can not. As the queue length increases, the dispersion increases. Everything has already been tested before us. Scattering by queues must be reduced by at least an order of magnitude, i.e. 10 times, as it was in the requirements of the Abakan competition. There, the AN-94 achieved an increase in the probability of hitting by 1,5-2 times. It's not a measly 10%-15%.
                      Everyone understands to the extent of their depravity. hi Practice is needed.


                      You can see everything without practice. Shooting from an open bolt worsens the accuracy of the first shot, which worsens the already small effect achieved by improving the accuracy of subsequent shots. And if you make the first shot from a closed shutter, then the whole point in Baryshev's scheme disappears.
                      1. 0
                        10 May 2022 06: 30
                        How do you like this - in the first lines:
                        "An intermediate position between certain and impossible events is occupied by random events."
                        This is a high probability neglect.

                        "And if you make the first shot from a closed bolt, then the whole point in Baryshev's scheme disappears"
                        By no means! The second shot turns into the first shot of the burst. The first one is separate. Again, if there is an option on how to fire the first shot, that decides a lot.
                        If the cocking bracket is immovable during firing, and the cartridge case is extracted forward, as is done in the Stechkin assault rifle, then the interior of the machine is closed most of the time. These are difficulties, but they are solvable difficulties.
                        If a new generation of qualified designers is needed, they need to provide a field of activity and encourage success, which means new competitions, regardless of the needs of the army.
                      2. 0
                        10 May 2022 09: 41
                        How do you like this - in the first lines:
                        "An intermediate position between certain and impossible events is occupied by random events."
                        This is a high probability neglect.

                        This is your neglect of mathematics, and of Russian at the same time. It doesn't matter what its probability is, if it's not 0 or 1 then the event is random.

                        The second shot turns into the first shot of the burst.

                        The second is not the first, by definition.
                        Again, if there is an option, how to make the first shot, it decides a lot.

                        Yes, this completely kills the whole point in Baryshev's automation. You don't seem to understand this meaning. That's why I explain.
                        The meaning of this automation is to reduce the force impact of recoil on the shooter, this is achieved in two ways:
                        1) firing on the roll-out of the bolt frame, the shot occurs when the frame is still moving forward. Ideally, half of the recoil momentum is spent on braking the frame, and the other half on acceleration.
                        2) Full braking of moving parts by a return spring, without shock in the rear position.

                        Now I will not talk about the fact that the pulses of the cartridges differ due to the spread of the weights of gunpowder and the masses of bullets, that the recoil momentum at an ambient temperature of 0 degrees and + 30 or minus 30 is different, that the state of the rubbing parts (carbon contamination in the process shooting) greatly affects the rollback and rollback speeds ... Now we are talking about the first shot from a closed bolt. The first shot from a closed bolt means that you don’t have any rollout, and therefore the recoil momentum is not spent on braking the bolt carrier, it is completely transferred to it. Consequently, the rollback speed of the moving parts is twice as high, and their energy is 4 times higher, which means that the length of the rollback to full braking also increases by 4 times. As I understand it, there is no one who wants to increase the length of the receiver by 4 times? If not, then at the end of the move there will be a strong blow to the butt plate of the receiver, which will sharply increase the deviation of the STP of the subsequent bullets of the line, this is exactly what Baryshev's automation was made against.
                      3. 0
                        10 May 2022 07: 14
                        Further note: A sum or product in which one term is "random" or probable is a probable quantity, not a "only possible" one. It seems that the sum of the assumptions is heresy.
                      4. 0
                        10 May 2022 09: 42
                        No, it's just your ignorance in this topic.
                      5. 0
                        13 May 2022 05: 32
                        After such first definitions, the whole book is chutzpah and spells, enclosing common sense with signs in ten rows. :)

                        "If not, then at the end of the move there will be a strong blow to the butt plate of the receiver, which will dramatically increase the deviation of the STP of the subsequent bullets of the burst, this is exactly what Baryshev's automation was made against."
                        Yes, it will, but once per turn. And you need to choose the aiming point, either for a single or for a queue.
                      6. 0
                        13 May 2022 18: 36
                        After such first definitions, the whole book is chutzpah and spells, enclosing common sense with signs in ten rows. :)


                        I already wrote to you, do not demonstrate militant ignorance here, but take a textbook on terver. From there, you suddenly learn that events have a probability of 0
                        Yes, it will, but once per turn.

                        No, not once. You do not seem to be aware of such a phenomenon as the rebound of moving parts after hitting the butt plate of the receiver. Because of this, the initial roll-on speed will not be 0 m / s, which is required for Baryshev's automation, but 3+ m / s, like in AK. This will lead to the fact that the moving parts will come to the forward position at a speed much higher than necessary, more energy will be spent on braking the frame, and less on its rollback, which means it will roll back a shorter distance. And to avoid skipping the feed, you need to rely on a large overrun of the shutter for the magazine and still lengthen the receiver. Since the bolt will roll back a shorter distance after the second shot, it will also come to the forward position at a lower speed, less energy will be spent on braking, and more on rollback, and again, on the third shot, it will hit the butt plate of the receiver.

                        And you need to choose the aiming point, either for a single or for a queue.


                        Yes, yes, when firing in a burst, do you think the first shot, which has the greatest chance of hitting, should be sent into milk so that the STP of subsequent shots, which are much less likely to hit, do not deviate so much from the target? Good plan to miss.
                      7. 0
                        14 May 2022 14: 09
                        There was a philosopher in ancient Greece who argued the impossibility of movement. His opponent simply began to walk in front of him and thereby shamed him. Baryshev's weapon exists in metal and demonstrates what it demonstrates. Reasonable is enough. And to argue how many angels will fit on the end of the needle is counterproductive.
                      8. 0
                        14 May 2022 17: 43
                        Can you write anything on the topic, and not breed "philosophy"?
                      9. 0
                        15 May 2022 05: 50
                        It's not my "philosophy" it's your "mathematics". This is all just on your topic, your arguments. Of bad memory, Kitaygorodsky, the founder of Terver, a fierce fighter against "pseudo-sciences", a conductor of inquisitorial methods, a dogmatist, considered only himself infallible. And meanwhile, well, yes, apparently, he dealt with probabilities in such a dishonest way.
  27. 0
    April 29 2022 17: 28
    If we talk about tossing the barrel during automatic firing, yes, systems with a straight layout have less,

    Hmmm ... If the author is the same Zavarykin, then hearing this from him is rather strange. Because the barrel toss from the impulse of the moving parts of the machine does not depend on the angle between the axes of the recoil impulse (barrel axis) and the reaction of the shooter (butt axis). The angle of departure of the bullet depends on this angle, this is taught in the first year of any military school. It seems like the weapon designer should also know this. So the bullet departure angle of the AK74 is minus 4 minutes. MINUS is DOWN. From the "indirect design" of the AK74, the bullets do not go up, but down. The departure angle is compensated by the sight. But as a result of the subsequent operation of the automation, the barrel is thrown up and at the next shot, the departure angle again lowers the barrel down. Only the minus departure angle managed to ensure that the third and subsequent bullets of the queue go to the target, and not significantly higher than the target. If you "straighten" the machine and make the departure angle zero, as on the SVD, then the "up" impulse from the moving parts will accumulate with each shot and take the bullets higher and higher.
    1. IVZ
      0
      April 29 2022 18: 38
      Very broad and probably correct explanation. But what about the recoil shoulder? Is the influence of this parameter canceled by order of the school?
      1. 0
        April 29 2022 19: 10
        Quote: IVZ
        But what about the recoil shoulder?

        A very valid question. And I examined it on the AK74 with the Bodykit. When changing the length of the buttstock from the minimum to the maximum (or vice versa, I don’t remember exactly, I need to raise the report), the STP moved significantly - on average, ten shooters a few centimeters down and to the side.
        1. 0
          April 29 2022 22: 17
          But doesn’t the angle between the axes change from the length of the butt?
      2. 0
        April 29 2022 20: 00
        Quote: Svateev
        Because the barrel toss from the impulse of the moving parts of the machine does not depend on the angle between the axes of the recoil impulse (barrel axis) and the reaction of the shooter (butt axis). The angle of departure of the bullet depends on this angle, this is taught in the first year of any military school.

        If they told me such crap in the first year of the school, I would think ten times whether I should even go to the shooting range. wassat soldier The first shot is up, and the second shot is down, these are cartridges with positive and negative angles. wassat
      3. 0
        21 July 2022 16: 10
        You probably know about explosive magnetic generators. Can you say something about the possibility of creating an explosive electrostatic generator at the beginning of the last century by Professor F.? :)
    2. +1
      April 29 2022 20: 15
      Angle -4 from what? from the axis of the barrel or the axis of the butt. lol Or maybe from the aiming axis? soldier
      1. +1
        April 29 2022 20: 34
        Departure angle (γ) is the angle formed by the direction of the axis of the bore of the aimed weapon before the shot and the direction of the same axis at the moment the projectile leaves the bore.
        1. 0
          April 29 2022 21: 52
          That is, at the time of the shot, the barrel bore, under the action of the shot (in the aggregate of all vectors), results in the barrel moving down? And this is compensated by the sight? I'm not an artilleryman, maybe it's like that on a recoil gun. But on hand weapons, this can only be done with a compensator,
          Quote: Svateev
          The departure angle is compensated by the sight.
          how is that? Oh, how many wonderful discoveries we have, the spirit of the Internet grants ... laughing
          1. +1
            April 30 2022 08: 10
            That is, at the time of the shot, the barrel bore, under the action of the shot (in the aggregate of all vectors), results in the barrel moving down?

            Yes
            And this is compensated by the sight?

            Yes.
            and how is it?

            So - when bringing the machine to a normal battle, if the STP deviates downward from the control point by more than 5 cm, then the front sight is screwed in.
            1. 0
              April 30 2022 10: 46
              And they told me "wretched" in my first year that the muzzle compensator compensates for the upward pull .... They probably lied wink And this is the angle "- 4" to compensate for the removal of the front sight from the barrel .. Oh, this Red Army with its USSR was misrepresented. soldier
              1. +1
                April 30 2022 10: 51
                You should first learn to read and understand what you read, otherwise some kind of stream of consciousness ...
                1. 0
                  April 30 2022 14: 57
                  Yes, where are we "poor" wink From the "stream of consciousness" and I hear ... tongue Maybe you should not write any nonsense, hiding your incompetence behind a set of incoherent words.
                  1. 0
                    April 30 2022 15: 03
                    Maybe you should, for starters, read something on the topic? It’s worth starting with school textbooks of the Russian language and literature, so that there is a logical connection between your messages, and you can finish with “The Basics of Shooting ...” there it is written about the departure angle and about bringing it to a normal battle.
              2. 0
                April 30 2022 11: 59
                Quote: Leomobil
                But doesn’t the angle between the axes change from the length of the butt?

                Does not change. The shoulder is changing.
                Quote: Leomobil
                Angle -4 from what?

                Open the manual on small arms "Fundamentals of shooting from small arms" 1987, it is easy to search on the Internet. And read the chapter "Recoil of the weapon and the angle of departure", article 14. There are reasons for the appearance of the departure angle. And it also contains an error (defect), which is revealed when compared with the main table AK74, where "minus" is indicated.
                Quote: Leomobil
                And they told me "wretched" in my first year that the muzzle compensator compensates for the upward pull .... They probably lied

                The muzzle compensator compensates for some of the movement of the bolt after firing. The compensator, in principle, cannot compensate for the departure angle, since this angle is formed BEFORE the bullet leaves the barrel, and the compensator starts working AFTER the bullet takes off. The departure angle can only be compensated with a sight, and reduced to zero only by selecting the appropriate angle between the barrel and the butt, as is done on the SVD.
                Quote: Leomobil
                Oh, this Red Army with its USSR was misrepresented.

                No, in the USSR they taught correctly. But where were you taught - the question. Since neither my explanations nor Droid's explanations are clear to you.
                1. IVZ
                  0
                  April 30 2022 14: 42
                  The recoil shoulder is not an angle, but the distance between the axis of the bore and the point of emphasis of the butt against the shooter's shoulder. The muzzle compensator is used to compensate for the removal of weapons from the line of sight during firing. Withdrawal occurs due to the impact of the recoil of the weapon both on the weapon itself and on the shooter. Sorry, but judging by the comments, you are definitely not a gunsmith and perhaps not even a military man.
                2. 0
                  April 30 2022 15: 19
                  Maybe you still need to do sights, and weapons are a little more difficult than stuffing lenses into a pipe. However, I didn’t comment on anything about your education, it was you who whispered something to Zavarykin about the first year. By the way, you did not graduate from a military school, not from a shooting and cannon department. Teach yours!
                3. 0
                  April 30 2022 15: 46
                  1
                  Quote: Svateev
                  Open the 1987 "Fundamentals of Shooting with Small Arms" shooting manual,

                  5. In order to reduce the harmful effect of recoil on the results of arrows
                  would in some samples of small arms (for example, the Kalash
                  nikova AK7) a special device is used - a muzzle brake -
                  compensator. Gases escaping from the bore, hitting the walls of the muzzle
                  brake, reduce recoil and deflect the muzzle of the auto
                  mat left, down. - Read it yourself. Looks like they haven’t reread it since 1987 .. lol
                  1. 0
                    8 May 2022 18: 43
                    Quote: Leomobil
                    5.

                    We discussed the departure angle, and this is Art.14.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    3. IVZ
      0
      10 May 2022 11: 00
      Quote: Svateev
      It seems like the weapon designer should also know this. So the bullet departure angle of the AK74 is minus 4 minutes. MINUS is DOWN.
      At the first shot, firstly, the blow of powder gases into the front wall of the gas chamber is triggered and a negative departure angle is indeed observed. But this influence is very insignificant compared to other shot factors that affect the stability of the weapon. In addition, during the aftereffect, the powder gas, while continuing to act on the bullet, can change the angle of its departure, and in the case of a tossing the barrel up, after the bullet has taken off, the gas impact vector on it will be directed from top to bottom. Well, subsequent shots from the queue will be fired from the "tossed barrel", and the amount of tossing still depends on the recoil shoulder.
  28. 0
    April 29 2022 17: 38
    cartridge 6,8x43. Although this did not happen in the US (decision delayed)

    Already accepted - https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/heres-everything-we-now-know-about-the-armys-new-squad-rifles
    1. -1
      April 30 2022 09: 18
      The link is not 6,8x43.))
      1. 0
        April 30 2022 12: 10
        Quote from Diver0
        The link is not 6,8x43.

        Link to article "Here's Everything We Now Know About The Army's New Squad Rifles"Where "Switching to 6.8mm ammunition..." Why are you not 6,8?
        1. -1
          April 30 2022 17: 47
          In addition to the caliber in the characteristics of the cartridge, as a rule, the length of the sleeve is indicated. The article, as I understand it, is about the NGSW .277 SIG FURY cartridge. And this is a completely different cartridge, with much more energy than 6,8x43. And the length of the sleeve there is about 51 mm.))
          1. 0
            8 May 2022 18: 49
            Quote from Diver0
            about the NGSW .277 SIG FURY cartridge.

            According to the NGSW program, a single cartridge is NOT SET. A single bullet and its initial velocity are given. And each contestant developed his own cartridge. One of the contestants has a telescopic cartridge, the second one has a plastic sleeve, the winner has a composite one made of a steel bottom and a brass body. In my link, the cartridge of the winner, therefore, this cartridge became the NGSW cartridge.
            1. 0
              11 May 2022 11: 40
              So I don’t argue, but this is not 6,8x43 (which I wrote about above). Perhaps I misunderstood you and you did not mean the cartridge 6,8x43. :)
  29. 0
    April 29 2022 17: 54
    From my point of view, the military version of the 6,5x39 Grendel cartridge produced in Russia would be the ideal ammunition for a Russian army machine gun.
    Its advantages are excellent ballistics,

    And what's great about it? Ballistics as ballistics. But this cartridge does NOT solve the main task of a promising rifle complex.
    What is the task? And the author casually mentioned it - to pierce modern body armor. Which is not even penetrated by the B-32 armor-piercing bullet from the SVD from a distance of 10 meters.
    There are calls to revive the 6x49 cartridge, i.e. BC3. As a person who has worked a lot with these ammunition (BCS, BC3, BC6 and again BC3, and recently 6,7x49), I want to say - no need. 720 mm - barrel length to get close to the required V25. There is no tenacity at the trunk, despite the polygonal (life forced) cutting. The phenomenon of capillarity, again. And there is no production of components, and there are no imported analogues, and there are no civilian ones either,

    This V25 (bullet speed, the author has at a distance of 25 meters) is the main criterion for the penetration ability of a bullet. Without increasing speed, it is impossible to increase penetration. Cartridge 6 * 49 has a speed of about 1080 m / s. By the way, the 6,8-mm cartridge recently adopted by the Americans presumably has the same amount, although for the time being (for five years already!) They have kept secret what speed they set for the designers, limiting themselves to the words "significantly more than that of the current weapon."
    One of these days here - www.svateev-va.rf - I will post analytics on the American NGSW program. You can subscribe to receive news.
    1. IVZ
      0
      April 29 2022 18: 50
      In addition to bullet speed, penetration is also affected by other parameters, such as bullet design, lateral load, etc. Bulletproof vests of the class you mentioned are not common, mainly among the fighters of assault groups, and there, as a rule, close combat.
      1. 0
        April 29 2022 19: 17
        Quote: IVZ
        e.g. bullet design,

        Everything that is possible has already been squeezed out of the design of the caliber bullet. For example,...
        I apologize, I will not post everything here, because the moderators for publishing my articles here began to demand payment as for advertising. They will also regard the details as circumventing their payment requirements and ban me completely.
        Within a few days I will post NGSW analytics on my website
        www.svateev-va.rf
        In the meantime, there is something interesting to read there.
      2. 0
        April 29 2022 19: 22
        If we want to confidently penetrate body armor and not only at close range, then the 6zh49 cartridge will not be enough, because the declared speed is 1080 m / s. drops quickly with distance, here it is necessary to increase the mass of the bullet. If you go this way, there can be no question of any shooting in bursts, only single shots and a long barrel, this is a rifle, and making a universal automatic rifle will not work
        1. 0
          April 29 2022 19: 27
          Quote: agond
          here it is necessary to increase the mass of the bullet,

          Not mass as such, but transverse load - the ratio of mass to cross section. Roughly speaking, you need to make an arrow. And they did it at TSNIITOCHMASH. For 17 years they have been doing...
          One of these days I will post it on my website www.svateev-va.rf
      3. 0
        April 29 2022 19: 23
        Quote: IVZ
        Bulletproof vests of the class you mentioned are not common

        More and more often. That is why the Americans started with the NGSW program immediately after we began deliveries of the Ratnik to the troops with its NIB.
        Our (Russian) "corundum" armor plate, which protects against the SVD bullet, weighs only about 4 kg.
        1. +1
          April 29 2022 19: 43
          Quote: Svateev
          Not mass as such, but transverse load - the ratio of mass to cross section. Roughly speaking, you need to make an arrow. And they did it at TSNIITOCHMASH. For 17 years they have been doing...

          An arrow is only available in a sub-caliber version, which means that you will have to significantly increase the caliber of the barrel, we look at the tank’s gun 120mm and the diameter of the BOPS is several times less than 20mm, which means that an arrow with a diameter of 3mm must be put in at least a 10mm pan and then the arrows always lost exactly to ordinary bullets and it was it would be logical to shoot not with one arrow, but with 7 arrows at once, albeit at a lower speed, but the barrel caliber will again be at least 10mm, that is, for anyone, this is a rifle for single fire.
          Wow, I'm tired of writing today .. if only someone put a plus sign.
          1. 0
            April 30 2022 12: 20
            Quote: agond
            look at the 120mm tank gun

            You argue correctly, you asked for a plus sign, put lol .
            And if you buy the 3rd volume of V.N. Dvoryaninov, who developed the arrow-shaped cartridge, you will read with enthusiasm about that 17-year process. And soon I will post a criticism of that process on my website www.svateev-va.rf.
            But Dvoryaninov's book is still worth buying, practically a textbook on internal ballistics and cartridge design.
    2. -1
      April 29 2022 19: 50
      But this cartridge does NOT solve the main task of a promising rifle complex.
      What is the task? And the author casually mentioned it - to pierce modern body armor. Which is not even penetrated by the B-32 armor-piercing bullet from the SVD from a distance of 10 meters.

      Pfff .....
      Why doesn't it break? Because the bullet is deformed when it hits, make the bullet stronger and that's it. But here everything depends on the price of such a bullet.)))
      This V25 (bullet speed, the author has at a distance of 25 meters) is the main criterion for the penetration ability of a bullet. Without increasing speed, it is impossible to increase penetration.

      The initial speed of the bullet is of course the most important indicator (it is he who sets the ballistics of the flight). But the material from which the bullet is made directly affects the penetration ability)))
      1. 0
        April 30 2022 12: 26
        Quote: lucul
        make the bullet stronger and that's it

        How simple it is, but we thought ...
        I pointed out: the B-32 bullet does not penetrate. And there the core is victorious - tungsten alloy B8. This core is not completely destroyed, but it cannot penetrate, because there is not enough specific energy. We need to increase the speed.
        Or do you think that the Americans are switching from their armor-piercing bullets with speeds of 900-930 m / s to a bullet with a speed of about 1080 m / s simply because they don’t have money for bullets with a strong core?
        1. IVZ
          0
          April 30 2022 12: 43
          As for the transition, is it for sure or is it just going?
          1. 0
            8 May 2022 19: 02
            Quote: IVZ
            As for the transition, is it for sure or is it just going?

            NGSW? We chose the winner and signed the first contract with him. Something like extensive military tests:
            https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/heres-everything-we-now-know-about-the-armys-new-squad-rifles
            Of course, NGSW may become obsolete even before the transition to it. Because he breaks through modern body armor to the limit, and the armor is being improved. And mass deliveries of NGSW to the troops are not yet possible because of the new cartridge: the problem is the deployment of mass production of the new cartridge. They build a special plant, because. Sig Sauer can produce limited quantities.
            I started posting analytics
            http://www.xn----7sbbfbbsa8hm.xn--p1ai/sib.html
  30. IVZ
    0
    April 30 2022 07: 20
    Quote: Droid
    No matter how the tactics change, but the need to hit more often and faster does not disappear, but becomes more and more acute. A 5,45 automatic will hit more often than Grendel, especially from unstable and unstable positions. According to NIB 5,45, it is also better because it hits more often.

    So can switch to .17 and .22 caliber cartridges?
    1. 0
      April 30 2022 08: 16
      We are already on .22 caliber cartridges because 5,45 is what it is. And the Germans washed down the MP7 of .18 caliber, which up to 200 m does any regular machine gun in terms of firing efficiency from unstable positions, incl. on targets in combined-arms NIS.
      1. 0
        April 30 2022 12: 36
        Quote: Droid
        up to 200 m, any regular machine gun is capable of firing from unstable positions, incl. on targets in combined-arms NIS.

        Is it the one with a caliber bullet jacket made of light plastic and therefore the whole bullet is lighter and therefore the muzzle velocity is higher with the same, or even less momentum?
        There is one. BUT ... It’s easier, after all, today or tomorrow I’ll post NGSW analytics on my website, and about this cartridge there.
        1. 0
          April 30 2022 13: 25
          No, with plastic it's Belgian 5,7x28, if I'm not mistaken. The Germans have no plastic in their 4,6mm bullet.
  31. IVZ
    0
    April 30 2022 07: 26
    Quote: Svateev
    Our (Russian) "corundum" armor plate, which protects against the SVD bullet, weighs only about 4 kg.

    This is a plate of a relatively small area, which is inserted into the pocket of a bulletproof vest. The bulletproof vest itself in this configuration, depending on the area of ​​\u8b\u16bprotection, will pull 2,2-4,5kg. The mass of field anti-fragmentation body armor is XNUMX-XNUMX kg.
    1. 0
      April 30 2022 08: 18
      Any bulletproof plate of a small area, and the old 7N6 anti-fragmentation protection is full of holes at distances over 500 m. And why is Grendel here?
  32. IVZ
    0
    April 30 2022 08: 24
    Quote: Droid
    We are already on .22 caliber cartridges because 5,45 is what it is. And the Germans washed down the MP7 of .18 caliber, which up to 200 m does any regular machine gun in terms of firing efficiency from unstable positions, incl. on targets in combined-arms NIS.

    I meant side-fire ammo.
    1. +1
      April 30 2022 08: 37
      And how are you going to hit more often with weapons chambered for .22lr at a distance of at least 200 meters? With his shitty ballistics - a steep trajectory, a large wind drift, a long flight time. God bless her with energy, there are serious problems with hitting.
      1. IVZ
        0
        April 30 2022 09: 40
        I'm talking about what. The decision on the cartridge should be comprehensive, taking into account not only the recoil momentum, but also a bunch of other parameters and range and penetration, stopping action and barrier stability. And all this with an eye to the future.
  33. IVZ
    0
    April 30 2022 08: 49
    Quote: agond
    The arrow is only available in a sub-caliber version, which means that you will have to significantly increase the caliber of the barrel, we look at the tank’s gun 120mm and the diameter of the BOPS is several times less than 20mm, which means that the arrow with a diameter of 3mm must be put in at least a 10mm pan and then the arrows always lost exactly to ordinary bullets

    And why exactly in 10 mm, and in the pallet of a smaller diameter, well, in the same 6,5 mm, it will not fit? Accuracy? For artillery shells, it is at the level, and the bullets simply did not reach the stage of working out the heap. And probably still it is impossible to mechanically draw an analogy between a bullet and a 120mm projectile.
  34. IVZ
    0
    April 30 2022 10: 09
    Quote: agond
    but the barrel caliber will again be at least 10mm, that is, for anyone, this is a rifle for single fire.

    And the submachine guns are 45 caliber, and 12,7 mm. silent machines?
    1. 0
      4 May 2022 08: 29
      Quote: IVZ
      And why exactly in 10 mm, and in the pallet of a smaller diameter, well, in the same 6,5 mm, it will not fit?

      For example, an arrow with a diameter of 3mm, a length of 40mm, a weight of 2.2g, a cylindrical sleeve of 10mm is just right, and a barrel along the diameter of the sleeve.
      Quote: Droid
      How are you going to hit more often?

      In general, what is better to hit more often than small and weak or hit rarely, but large and strong, examples from wild boar hunting can be buckshot 6mm 28 pieces in a cartridge, 2-3 of them should hit, .. by the way, the enemy in modern protective equipment you can seriously injure yourself with buckshot from a 12-gauge gun and in general it’s more difficult to hit with bullets, try to get into a duck from a machine gun, but with a shot please.
      1. 0
        5 May 2022 18: 16
        In general, what is better to hit more often than small and weak, or hit rarely, but large and strong,


        The answer has long been given - hit more often. Fragmentation ammunition confirm.

        And then what was not quoted? How are you even going to hit the 200m?
        1. 0
          5 May 2022 20: 14
          Quote: Droid

          The answer has long been given - hit more often. Fragmentation ammunition confirm. And then what was not quoted? How are you even going to hit the 200m?

          The question is what is better to hit more often than small and weak or hit rarely, but large and strong, you can imagine otherwise
          what is better than the RPK-74 with a high density of fire, but without guarantees of breaking through body armor, or some kind of automatic rifle with an 8,6 × 70 mm cartridge, but with a guarantee,?
          1. +1
            5 May 2022 21: 08
            For an ordinary motorized rifle, albeit a contract soldier, definitely RPK74.
            1. The armor plate of a modern armor will not be pierced by either one or the other.
            2. And to slam past the plate into the carcass with a burst of 5 shots from the RPK74, the probability is much higher than with one shot from an 8,6-mm rifle.
            1. +1
              6 May 2022 10: 09
              Yes, it is also true for an unusual motorized rifleman, at 200m and further, you can only hit a well-defined target with a single shot from a prone position, while it must be borne in mind that the time for aiming a rifle is usually longer than that of an RPK, that is, you may not have time to aim at a moving target rifle. and its weight in caliber 8.6mm is significant, and as you noticed, there is no full guarantee of breaking through the armor and it is more reliable to shoot from caliber 9.6mm and higher.
              We can conclude that the transition from 5.45mm, for example, to 7.62mm and a little higher is all past the checkout, guaranteed penetration of the armor plate will not work, dispersion of automatic fire will increase, the consumption of cartridges will not decrease, and the wearable ammunition load will definitely decrease.
              And most importantly, if the enemy has massively switched to rifles with a guarantee of penetration, then wearing bulletproof armor will lose its meaning and you can increase ammunition or other equipment, and the enemy against your 5.45 will continue to wear his heavy armor along with weapons of increased power and weight. and as a result, reduced ammunition
  35. 0
    6 May 2022 13: 00
    Quote: Svateev
    Quote from Whitefall
    simplified the AK12 due to the fact that for the shutter delay you need to change stores

    The shutter delay was removed correctly. It does not speed up anything, but only creates confusion about how to send a cartridge at the moment: to jerk the shutter or press the delay lever.

    In fact, the delay does not change anything in the chambering of the cartridge. There is a second, faster way. For adherents of the Kalashmat, it is enough to pull the shutter that has entered the delay a little back and release it.
  36. 0
    6 May 2022 18: 07
    Dear forum users! Tell me or explain the photo at the beginning of the article: if you look closely at the fighter’s machine gun, you can see that the bar of the fire-fuse translator has been shifted down, already beyond the receiver, bypassing all two stamping-limiters, i.e. it may not be fixed on them and rotate even further down. It shouldn't be like that. Faulty machine or marriage. Or am I not understanding something?
    1. +1
      6 May 2022 18: 21
      So it should be, he has 4 positions of the translator. There is also a cut-off for 2 shots, beyond what the hell it is not clear.
      1. 0
        6 May 2022 18: 35
        This plank looks somehow uncomme il faut with sharp edges and the ability to catch on anything (a fighter's ammunition, various belts, etc.) Clumsily this additional position of the bar is implemented, fu.
        1. 0
          6 May 2022 19: 14
          But it’s interesting what will happen if the barrel is lengthened due to the length of the muzzle compensator, then about 415 mm will be added to its 70 mm without changing the overall dimensions of the machine, and is it really necessary?
          1. 0
            6 May 2022 20: 14
            DTK improves the accuracy of automatic fire, and the whole history of AK is a struggle for accuracy of automatic fire. The extra 70 mm of the barrel will not give anything special, and the accuracy will worsen in bursts.
            1. 0
              6 May 2022 21: 15
              The first RPK-74 has a 590mm table and no compensator, and the accuracy is good, but here it will be 480-490mm, but there must have been experiments. on this topic.
              1. 0
                6 May 2022 21: 29
                RPK74 shoots mainly from bipods and its weight is 1,5 times more. And if from the bipod the total dispersion of the RPK74 is 1,9 times less (in area) than that of the AK74 from the stop, then standing from the hand the difference is only 1,25 times.
                1. 0
                  7 May 2022 07: 41
                  And in fact, the weight of the weapon affects accuracy, although on the other hand, everyone is constantly striving to reduce it, and this is logical, but you can increase the weight of the machine gun without increasing the total weight of the fighter’s equipment, for example, use an increased capacity magazine and, accordingly, more weight, or mount it in the butt a walkie-talkie with a battery, a ballistic computer, or something else, in a word, the weight will increase by 1.5 times and with it the accuracy by 1.25 times
                  1. +1
                    7 May 2022 09: 09
                    Carrying an extra 1,7 kg even on the back can be difficult, and the machine is not only carried on the back, but simply in the hands, and even they are actively turned over. And here the extra 1,7 kg is a lot, no one will go for it. At RPK74, at least it’s clear what you get for these extra pounds - it’s a long heavy barrel, a reinforced receiver liner, a reinforced receiver, and finally bipod. All this allows you to conduct longer and more intense fire, and in an offensive where one of the main positions of firing from an automatic machine lying down from the hand of the RPK74 shoots from bipods and the difference in accuracy of the first shot is 2,7 times, and the accuracy of subsequent bullets in the queue differs by 17,2 times . And what will the machine gunner get for the extra 1,7 kg? 25% improvement in accuracy? Let me remind you that balanced automation with a slight increase in weight gave an improvement in accuracy from unstable positions by 2-3 times (by area), this is not a miserable 1,25 times. But even with such a result, she flew by at the competition because the accuracy needs to be improved at least 10 times, 2-3 times does not give a noticeable increase in shooting efficiency.
                    1. 0
                      7 May 2022 15: 15
                      Quote: Droid
                      accuracy must be improved by a minimum of 10 times, 2-3 times does not give a noticeable increase in firing efficiency.

                      10 times!!! it is necessary to abandon automatic fire in favor of a single one, but shoot with arrows of 7 pieces in a cartridge, but here both the weight of the weapon and the recoil will increase ... however, you can remember by weight
                      AK-74 3.6kg
                      Three-ruler -4.5kg
                      PPSh -5.3 kg
                      musket "Brown Bess", -4.1-4.7 kg
                      flintlock fishing rifle of the 18-19th century, calibers from 4mm to 8mm, (average weight from 5 to -8 kg, there were copies much heavier wrote Cherkasov) local hunters and fishermen were condescending to the "urban" with their rifles under the primer, with light trunks, or with shotguns. at the same time, in addition to the rifle, the fisherman carried with him a bipod, lead wire or ready-made bullets and other equipment, food, prey, etc. and he was skiing
                      Thus, we see that the concept of heavy weapons is a loose concept and probably a heavier barrel could be used in the AK-12
                      1. 0
                        8 May 2022 19: 57
                        10 times!!! it is necessary to abandon automatic fire in favor of a single one, but shoot with arrows of 7 pieces in a cartridge, but here both the weight of the weapon and the recoil will increase

                        AN-94 and TKB-0416 fire monitors coped, as well as the AO-63 double-barreled gun.
  37. IVZ
    +1
    14 May 2022 15: 21
    Quote: surok1
    Baryshev's weapon exists in metal and demonstrates what it demonstrates.

    There were prototypes for various ammunition both here and in Czechoslovakia, where, as far as I know, they bought a patent. None of the samples was put into service and was not even transferred to trial operation, although the Czechs actively promoted samples, incl. to foreign markets. These are just facts. I understand that religion is based on faith, not facts. Well, "blessed is he who believes," arguing and proving is useless here.
    1. 0
      16 May 2022 09: 33
      An attempt to make a weapon more powerful, more efficient, more versatile and at the same time light, simple in design and accurate (such as a shvets, a reaper, a gamer on the pipe), is the same as taking apart a car with one key, and it's time to talk not about the requirements for a modern machine gun, but to the requirements for the gunsmith designer, so that he does not fence unthinkable designs where you can get by with a simple symmetrical execution of shutter automation parts, I would like to convey this simple idea to the designer’s mind, an automaton with symmetrical kinematics does not require either gear racks with gears for "balancing" or muzzle expansion joints for "compensation"
  38. 0
    22 May 2022 11: 19
    From my point of view, the military version of the 6,5x39 Grendel cartridge produced in Russia would be the ideal ammunition for a Russian army machine gun.

    The military version of the "grendel" (6.5mm cartridge based on the 1943 cartridge case) was developed and tested in the USSR back in 1963. And then it was deservedly forgotten, since the future 5.45x39 surpassed it in terms of the probability of hitting targets

    The 6P38 assault rifle, recently adopted by special forces units, with the exception of its “semi-breaking” receiver design, is structurally the same AEK

    the Kord-5.45 assault rifle, created on the basis of the AEK-971, was put into service under the symbol GRAU 6P67
    1. IVZ
      0
      22 May 2022 18: 41
      The situation has changed with the patron. Already from Afghanistan, the question arose of replacing the 5,45 cartridge with a more powerful one. The collapse of the USSR prevented. Since then, the situation has only worsened. :6,5 mm. the cartridge is not a panacea for the future, but an inexpensive option today. The probability of hitting and the probability of hitting the target characteristics are close, but still different.
      1. 0
        23 May 2022 17: 57
        > Already from Afghanistan, the question arose of replacing the 5,45 cartridge with a more powerful one
        is it? there as long as I remember. basically with the replacement of the ancient three-line rifle-machine-gun cartridge they butted, first at 3.5 / 10mm with SPEL, then at 6x49 with a conventional bullet.

        > The probability of hitting and the probability of hitting the target characteristics are close
        These are related characteristics, since the probability of hitting is directly tied to the probability of hitting.
        And the 6.5 has a pretzel when firing bursts (and this, I remind you, we still have the main mode), the probability of hitting is lower than that of 5.45x39, and even the wearable b / c with a given mass is less. and when shooting single in a real battle, 5.45 due to less recoil and greater flatness at medium distances will be at least no worse
        in fact, 6.5 can only win at distances of more than 400 meters and when shooting calmly at stationary targets, that is, in a shooting range / on a range
  39. 0
    28 June 2022 21: 11
    To shoot from a Kalash, you need to pump up a bit. The butt when firing sourly hammers into the shoulder, and when firing bursts, the barrel leads up and to the right, which does not contribute to accuracy. To keep this device on target, you need paws, like Schwarzenegger's. And yes, reliable. Range and penetration are good. But not ideal.

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