IP v Tiger

Imagine the following situation: a duel between the Tiger and the IS-2 in ideal (flat terrain, distance up to 1000 m) and equal (quality of sights, level of training of gunners, full ammunition, gun with wedge bolt) conditions. At the same time, we will lay a 50% chance of being hit by the first shot and agree that both tank give a miss, but they must be hit by a second shell, which in real life often happened. What happens next?

The charging IC-2 takes an 25-kg projectile from the ammunition located in the aft niche of the turret and inserts it into the barrel, then sends it to the foreman with a sucker so that the leading belt is firmly wedged at the beginning of the rifling of the barrel. An experienced loader will send the projectile with his hand, which speeds up the process. Then the loader takes an 15-kg cartridge case with a charge from the right wall of the turret (we agreed that the ammunition unit is full, which means that after the first shot the turret still has one cartridge case with a charge, for the next one it’s necessary to dive down EC-2), puts it in the barrel and sends it. This closes the shutter automatically. The loader reports "Done", the tank commander says - "Fire", and the gunner, who during the loading time had time to correct the sight, presses the trigger and produces a shot. However, stop! Under all our conditions, the most trained loader will take all of the above to take at least 20 seconds, which means, no matter how sad it may be to admit, he will not have time to finish the loading process, because 8-mm will fly into the EC-2 tower in 88 seconds German projectile, and on the 16-th - the second! Thus, at the first miss, the “Tiger” with the rate of fire of its 6-8 cannons per minute did not leave the EC-2 any chance for a second shot. Even if our tanks were two, the Tiger, hitting the first EC-2, would have had time to give the first shot at the second on 4 a second before the response. In the end, it turns out that for the guaranteed defeat of one “Tiger” with the second shot, it is necessary to have three tanks EC-2.

Some data

Tank, gun Armor, mm / tilt, gr Armor piercing at a distance 1000 m, mm / gr Rate of fire, rds / min
EC-2, 122-mm D-25T frontal hull - 120 / 60 ° frontal towers - 150 / rounded 142 / 90 ° 2 ... 3
Tiger, 88-mm KwK 36 frontal hull - 100 / 8 ° frontal towers - 190 / 0 ° 100 / 60 ° 6 ... 8

From the above data, it follows that with 1000 m the Tiger could not penetrate either the forehead of the hull, or even more so the IP-2 towers. For this, he needed to come close at least on 500 ... 600 m. And it is also necessary to take into account that this is only true for the EC-2 of an early release, since after the introduction of a “straightened nose” on our tank (see M. Baryatinsky, EC-2, History creation), "KwK 36 tank gun L / 56 did not penetrate the frontal armor of the EC-2 when shooting from any distance."

For our own tank, the opposite is happening - with the 1000, he confidently punched the frontal armor of the Tiger's hull. If the projectile hit the front of the turret of the German tank without even punching it, the gap was guaranteed to damage the gun barrel and the Tiger remained unarmed.

So With 1000, Tiger could damage, but not destroy, EC-2. So the German tank makes the second shot - the 88-mm projectile damages the caterpillar. The third shot of the Tiger coincides with the second EC-2. German projectile knocks down the sight, X-NUMX-mm projectile EC-122 - breaks through the armor of the Tiger. German tank destroyed, Russian - damaged. And this is at the worst for our tank scenario.

Suppose another situation. The crew of the German tank knows that it needs to approach the EC-2 at a distance of 500 ... 600 m. With an average Tiger speed on the 25 terrain ... 30 km / h it will take about a minute for the 500 to cross. On the move, a German tank cannot shoot, because the lack of a gun stabilizer will reduce the probability of getting to zero. The EC-2, on the contrary, has time to make 3 shots.

Thus, with such a meeting face-to-face, Tigger was very unprofitable to join the battle.

Comments

[Alexander]

"The tiger took part in battles already in 42, near Leningrad, and the IS? At 45? So, of course, you want the scientific progress in the war is accelerating very much, but even with all that how many" Tigers "were destroyed? And how many IS? Ten times more ! here's the answer.the tiger has a sight - incomparably better, the gun is much more accurate and long-range, the initial velocity of the projectile is one and a half times higher; armor-rolled, krupovskaya.the gasoline engine - strong but poor, suspension - sucks; weight - excessive none bridge or railway platform does not hold up.

[Alf]

It is interesting from what fright the armor of the Tiger tower is 190 mm, in all directories it is 100-110 mm. IS-2s were released in December 1943, 35 units, in January 1944 -35 units, February 1944-75, March-100 units per month, April-150, May-175, then 200-250 tanks per month. The accuracy of the guns of the Tiger and the IS-2 are approximately equal. The initial velocity of the armor-piercing shell of the Tiger-810 m / s, IS-2-790 m / s. For losses, if there is accurate data, I am ready to listen to them.

[olosors]

In 1945 there was a modification of the t6 tiger (H)
He punched IS in all parts of the hull and turret

[olosors]

but could not introduce the modification
it was necessary to redo the production system and the raw materials were scarce and time was running out and the tank was not cheap

[Alex]

Quote: olosors

In 1945 there was a modification of the t6 tiger (H) He punched all parts of the hull and tower

Quote: olosors

but they couldn’t introduce the modification, it was necessary to redo the production system and the raw materials were scarce and time was running out and the tank was not cheap

Well, why is this brilliance of erudition?

[GDP]

Tigers participated more in defensive operations, and IP in offensive.
Isa constantly marched in the assault on protected cities, tigers are extremely rare.
The tiger is a purely anti-tank vehicle Is more often used to break through ...
Hence the difference in losses ...
In general, in terms of the totality of its qualities, IP was at least not inferior to tigers, but in many ways exceeded them ...
Yes inferior in optics and firing speed, but in other indicators superiority is overwhelming ...

[bob]

Quote: alexander

but even with all that, how many "Tigers" were destroyed? how much is IP?

they were used in different ways. the tiger was mainly from an ambush, but the IS was always in the forefront

[Alf]

Compare in the production of the IS-2.

[kov]

IP Video 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfaFhiPOutI

[builder]

CONCLUSION: The best tank of World War II - IS-2 with a 88-mm cannon KwK 36

[egeny patykov]

with 100 mm domestic

[_DENN_]

Quote: alexander

"The tiger took part in battles already in 42, near Leningrad,

And how are success?

[air wolf]

First was the IS-85

[nyony]

What the TS wrote is at least just absurd, why does he compare is2 with tiger 1? For justice, they would take Tiger 2. But TTX tools of the tiger (information in the public domain) 2 Kw.K. 43 L / 71 - the longest-barreled tank gun of all ever used by the Wehrmacht troops. The barrel length was 71 caliber, i.e. 6248 mm (with a muzzle brake - 6592 mm). The initial velocity of the armor-piercing caliber projectile was 1000 m / s. The penetration of the gun at a distance of 1500 m at an angle of 60 ° was 148 mm. Even at a distance of 4000 meters, the shell of the gun was still able to penetrate the 80-mm vertical armor plate (that is, theoretically, under the condition of a successful airborne hit, destroy, for example, the Sherman tank).
Penetration Table for KwK 43 L / 71

Shell \ Distance, m 100 500 1000 1500 2000
PzGr. 39/43 (meeting angle 0 ° to normal) 230 220 210 200 190
PzGr. 39/43 (meeting angle 30 ° to normal) 258 248 238 228 218
PzGr.40 (meeting angle 30 ° to normal) 260 250 240 230 220

The armor penetration of the 88 mm KwK 43 gun provided the Royal Tiger with the ability to destroy any of the tanks used in World War II. Even booking the most protected tank models, such as the M26 and later Churchill modifications on the Western Front and the IS-2 on the Eastern Front, provided virtually no protection against it at real battle distances. Perfect for its time, a set of observation instruments provided the Tiger II with high target detection capabilities, and high-quality optics, combined with a long direct-shot range and good gun accuracy, allowed the tank to achieve hits at distances of up to 4 km. According to German tabular data, at a distance of 1000 meters, a 100% proving ground and 85% combat calculated probability of hitting a target of the "tank" type were provided. By 1500 meters, it decreased to 95 and 61%, respectively, and from 2000 meters to 85 and 43% [45]. And put up with the fact that world authorities in the field of construction of armored vehicles recognized Panther as the best tank of the Second World War and not the T34.
T. Jentz in his monograph mentions that it was not possible to find a single photograph of the “Royal Tiger” with frontal armor pierced in combat conditions.
As for the armored vehicles of the allies, the American and British tanks were not able to effectively confront the "Royal Tiger". This explains the fact that the Allies most often used aircraft against the Tigers II on the Western Front. In particular, on July 18, 1944 (the day after the defeat by the 503rd heavy tank battalion of the 148th Royal Tank Regiment), as part of the Goodwood operation that had begun, the position of German troops near the city of Caen, including the position of the 503rd heavy tank battalion, bombed about 2100 aircraft.

Thus, it can be argued that the Royal Tiger tank was one of the strongest tanks participating in World War II in terms of the firepower - armor protection complex. However, the numerous shortcomings of its design, especially in the power plant and chassis, the enormous weight, low reliability, as well as the operational-tactical situation, which did not allow taking full advantage of the Tiger II, determined the overall rather low potential of the machine and did not give the “Royal” tiger ”to have a significant impact on the course of hostilities of the final period of World War II.

[Capacitor]

So, we have already found 260 penetration shells for akht-akhta. So soon we will find the cumuli with breaking through for 400. In reality, the data are somewhat overstated. And it's not about the artillery system - in this regard, the 88 was almost perfect, its only drawbacks were price, weight, dimensions. The fact is that the Germans have exhausted the armor-piercing capabilities of the caliber 88 mm projectile. And the data is overstated for propaganda purposes, not a single caliber projectile gave more than 220-230 mm on a large series, and this is close. At real distances, the battle went in the region of 170-190. Yes, it was possible to run L / 100, but there the price tag would go crazy, and the barrel survivability was extremely low. About the rate of fire. And how do you like this situation: "The tiger shoots the IS-2 in the forehead with a straightened VLD, did not hit once, did not hit two, did not hit three, and then he would give 25kg blank into the tower. Shoots, of course, and everyone becomes sad."

By article. It is purely my opinion that comparing the is-2 with the tiger first or second can be very conditional. The IS-2 is still a mass machine for its class, a universal breakthrough tank, and KT produced 489 units, 1354 Tigers ... That is, in 3 years, in total, less than 2 thousand of both modifications were produced, and 2 were produced in only 2210 years. ... At the same time, the start of production of the IS-44 with a straightened frontal part immediately made the 2/88 obsolete, it could not pierce the IS-56's forehead. Even 2/88 did not always break through. The specificity of the battle was different. This is not a random 71v15. And not a knightly duel Heavy and heavy. Here not only tanks and tanks are being cut, but also aircraft, artillery, mines. The tank is a collective weapon, used in cooperation with the branches and types of troops. Comparison of the size of the ammunition is amusing: "Only 15 rounds" ... Comrades, but at the same time, each hit most likely leads to the destruction of the tank. And the tank duel was only on the Kursk Bulge ("Rus, come out to fight, our newest tank Reich is opposing your kolkhoz panza"), and now imagine. There is a column of CTs, they are all so formidable, impressive. and then shells just fly into the sides. A lot of. from 24 to 85 mm. What rds / min is there when one hit of the armor-piercing 152 on the side is enough and the tank and the crew are finished? Enough landmine 122-122 in the turret and the crew is tightly shell-shocked. The difference in performance characteristics was not so significant. It all came down to who took the best position, who opened fire first, what is the numerical balance and quality (who has more powerful guns).

Tiger 1, by the way, FOR ITS TIME was quite a good breakthrough tank. This is not a PT tank. Because the sides are thick. Why are there powerful sides? If you think about firing from a distance, facing the enemy? After all, the sides are mass. If the tiger had a 40mm side, it would weigh about 50 tons, which is almost the weight of the "Stalins". But the Tiger was conceived as a breakthrough tank. And Tiger2 has already gone towards Fri. Well, it's nice, we spent resources faster, fewer grandfathers died.

PS Enough already spread rot D-25T. For its time, a good and versatile tool. Low rate of fire is compensated by the number of vehicles, support for medium tanks, self-propelled guns. Good both for supporting infantry and for exterminating tanks (it is worth recognizing that as an IT, the su-100 was better). Fight not guns, not hp, not mm of armor. History has clearly shown this.

[shuravi]

This is of course strong. On a site with such a big name post fantasies of Misha Baryatinsky.