Who did not want to build aircraft carriers in the USSR

155
Who did not want to build aircraft carriers in the USSRFor decades, admirals did not understand their meaning.

Recently, the creation of aircraft carriers (AB) in our country has not disappeared from the pages of various print publications and is actively discussed in social networks. However, in order to publish and discuss information, the right to present which everyone who is interested in this topic has, you must at least have a minimum of reliable information.

Unfortunately, most of the participants in lively disputes, referring to the arguments of various military and political figures, have never seen real documents (including minutes of government meetings) and have not heard the real statements of representatives of the country's military-political leadership, and therefore build their conclusions on basis of actively circulating rumors.

Let us try to clarify this problem and tell about what was hidden from ordinary citizens "by the formidable guardians of many useless secrets of the USSR and Russia."

To begin with, let's see: who didn't want to build aircraft carriers in the USSR? But for this you have to do a little excursion into history and name some names.

Mobile Airfield Debut
The first in 1918 began to create the British Navy AB, having converted the Furios battleship (LC) into an aircraft carrier ship. As the royal leadership believed fleet, aircraft carriers were required to solve auxiliary problems, in particular weakening the enemy’s linear forces before the main artillery battle, and also to shield their own battleships from enemy air strikes.
In Japan and the United States, aircraft carriers were built later, but conceptual views on their use were close to the point of view of the British admirals (with some differences in the Land of the Rising Sun). Japanese and American naval commanders believed that all AVs should act as a single operational connection to inflict the greatest losses on the main enemy forces before the start of a linear artillery battle, and not be distributed among LK squadrons.
Based on this, it is clear why the “large” 10-year program for the construction of the Soviet fleet of 1938 included 15 battleships and only two aircraft carriers, and it was planned to create “floating airfields” not in the first five-year period. Then everyone believed that the AB are auxiliary ships. The command of the Navy has intended to entrust them with providing air defense of linear forces and conducting reconnaissance. It believed that since the Soviet fleet at that time should primarily solve the problem of defending its coastal zone in closed seas, air defense and reconnaissance could be provided to a greater extent by the coastal aviation, and aircraft carriers need to be additionally, just in case.

To foresee the great future of the AV and, therefore, build them instead of the LC, it was necessary to be as brilliant and authoritative as a naval figure, as the Japanese admiral Yamomoto. Yes, the naval aviation of the USSR Navy itself had mainly reconnaissance-fighter orientation and weak strike capabilities (impact machines less than 15% of the entire aircraft fleet), and its further development was also assumed in the same vein. Thus, there is no reason to throw reproaches to the leaders of the USSR and the Navy 30 for insufficient attention to the AB.

The concept of aircraft carrier support was also implemented at the beginning of the Second World War. British AV aircraft torpedoed three Italian battleships in the Taranto base in 1940, hit the German battleship Bismarck in the Atlantic Ocean in 1941, which was then sunk by artillery fire, only damaged the Italian battleship Vittorio Vineto at Cape Matapan (only the rapid restoration of combat capability and the proximity of the base saved the ship from the fate of "Bismarck").

The Japanese, taking advantage of the British experience, struck Pearl Harbor aircraft carrier formations in December 1941 and disabled all US Pacific fleet battleships, sinking and damaging eight American LCs. However, only after the battles in the Coral Sea and near the Midway Island in 1942, the ABs became the main combat units of the leading fleets of the world, and not as ships in themselves, but as mobile airfields for aviation. It was she who turned into the main force at sea, defeating first surface ships, and then - since 1944, and submarines. By the way, even earlier - in the 1939-1940 years of the Luftwaffe, not German Tanks defeated the ground forces of Poland, France and Great Britain.

The prophetic words of the Russian naval theorist N. L. Klado, spoken by him in the 1910 year, came true: “... when the air force overcomes the obstacles that hinder its development (mainly low payload), it will immediately take a dominant position among the means of warfare. .. "

The Great Patriotic War made the Soviet admirals seriously think. In the north, transport convoys for the USSR with weapons and strategic materials from the USA and Great Britain suffered the main losses not from German submarines, but from German aviation. On the Baltic Sea, an attempt at first to keep ships in Kronstadt under the protection of powerful air defense only led to the death of the Marat LC, one leader, several destroyers and submarines. In the future, only the camouflaging and redeployment of ships in Leningrad saved them from the inevitable destruction of the Luftwaffe. On the Black Sea, while German aviation was in the Crimea, it completely displaced our surface ships and even submarines from the range of its aircraft, ensured the blockade and the capture of Sevastopol. Right up to the end of 1943, the appearance of the Luftwaffe’s daytime even a combination of surface ships of the Black Sea Fleet resulted in his death. As it turned out, providing air defense to ships at sea with coastal fighters was possible only at a distance of 50 – 100 kilometers from the coast, and then only in some cases.

Submarine bet
What lessons did the command of the USSR Navy and the leadership of the country as a whole learn from the experience of the past war?

From the unpublished notes of the head of the Main Naval Directorate of the Navy, Admiral N. V. Isachenkov, the following is known: “In June 1945, I was summoned to the narco-admiral N. G. Kuznetsov, who informed me that, at the beginning of the year, on the direction of I. V. Stalin work began on the elaboration of the future fleet. Today, I. V. Stalin asked me what was the main conclusion from the ongoing battles at sea I did. He replied that submarines and aircraft had become the main forces at sea. "Still, the first submarine?". I confirmed it. “Strange,” he replied. “Prepare a shipbuilding program for the 1945 – 1955 years.” So, Nikolai Vasilyevich, prepare proposals for the shipbuilding program taking into account the developments of the commission of Vice Admiral Abankin. ”

As we see, Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov gave priority to submarines, which somewhat perplexed Stalin.

The Navy Theorists Commission chaired by Vice-Admiral P. P. Abankina presented in March 1945 of the year “Considerations on the most rational ratio of the number of ships of various classes in various theaters and on the expediency of creating new classes of ships or merging into one class of existing ones”. This document had a “Top Secret” vulture for a long time, since it analyzed possible military operations of the USSR Navy against the allies in the anti-Hitler coalition in all theaters. At the same time, the importance of aircraft carriers was still determined by the provisions of the old concept (air defense and weakening the enemy to a decisive artillery battle), but their ratio depending on the theater was already this - one or two AVs for each LC. At a minimum, it was supposed to have nine LC and 13 AB.

Submariners differed in their special “appetite”, which required the deployment of submarines with X-Numx with the tasks of fighting enemy warships. Later, under N. S. Khrushchev, N. G. Kuznetsov insisted on building the 430 PL, which caused the rage of the first person of the state because of the huge costs and contributed to the admiral's dismissal.

Thus, the command of the Soviet Navy and after the Great Patriotic War - in 1945-m relied on the submarine, and aircraft carriers, as in 20 – 30-s, considered as auxiliary ships in comparison with the battleships. At the same time, the political leadership of the USSR did not consider this concept correct.

In September, the report of N. G. Kuznetsov on the future shipbuilding program, which, judging by Admiral N. Isachenkov’s notes, suggested the construction of four LC, 1945 AB, 1956 cruisers, 12 destroyers and 94 Submarine However, the meeting greatly corrected these plans. We will touch only the aspects connected with AV and PL.

“Moving away from the initial application, the People's Commissar of the Navy requested to build four large and four small AVs. V. Stalin replied: “Let’s wait with both of them,” recalls N. V. Isachenkov. Then, bearing in mind the needs of the Northern Fleet, the Generalissimo, after a brief discussion, summarized: "We will build two small pieces." (However, later at the insistence of the shipbuilding industry and with the tacit consent of the new command of the Navy, aircraft carriers disappeared from the program.) Stalin also doubted the need for so many submarines: "Do we need so many boats in general, and especially do we need large submarines?". NG Kuznetsov managed to defend only part of the submarine. "

Who did not need mobile aerodromes? Presumably, not to Stalin, but to the shipbuilding industry and the new (after N. G. Kuznetsov) command of the Navy. For example, all attempts by Admiral Kuznetsov to organize the completion of the captured German aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin" were rejected by the People's Commissariat of the shipbuilding industry, even with the conclusion of the Baltic Plant about the possibility of carrying out the necessary work.

Means of defense
In the middle of the 50-ies, the scientific and technological revolution began in all countries, including the USSR, a review of the importance of different types of weapons for the future war began. Even in the leading maritime powers (the United States, Great Britain and France), against the background of general nuclear-nuclear hysteria, they began to question the expediency of AB existence. In the USSR, a huge number of naval specialists appeared who believed that it was the missiles that would finally help to cheaply “overtake without catching up” with the traditional naval forces of the leading maritime powers.

In October, a meeting of government members was held in Sevastopol under the leadership of N. S. Khrushchev in October with the leadership of the Ministry of Defense and the Navy to work out ways to develop the fleet for the coming decade. The event was held under the slogan "Past experience in the formation of fleet combat vehicles is unsuitable under new conditions."

Initially, N. S. Khrushchev expressed his view on these problems: “With modern means of detection, communications, powerful missile weapons, can surface ships with their large sizes perform their tasks? Surface ships will become a burden ... I believe in submarines. The submarine fleet and naval aviation must be made the main force for fighting at sea ... Covering communications requires the creation of aircraft carriers to solve air defense tasks. But this task is not near. It may be advisable to design and build for the beginning one aircraft carrier with the aim of gaining experience to determine the procedure for their further construction when it is required ... "

Defense Minister G. K. Zhukov expressed the following views: “... The actions of the naval aviation and powerful missile weapons will be decisive in the war at sea ... A powerful submarine fleet is needed to break sea and ocean communications ... Aircraft carriers will not need to be built in the near future. Our strategic position is different in comparison with the likely adversary ... "

If the marshal knew that for a real breach of communications of the likely adversary (excess of losses over new construction), it was necessary to sink transport ships monthly with a total displacement of more than two million tons, which required, according to the most conservative estimates, to maintain the number of operating submarines at 1000 units and monthly production of at least 15 000 torpedoes, he would most likely have refused to set this task for the Navy.

Finally, according to the plans of the General Staff, it was supposed that in the event of a war between NATO and the Organization of the Warsaw Pact (ATS) countries, within two weeks our troops would reach the coast of the English Channel and begin to force it. This water barrier was considered by the then Soviet strategists as a “wide river”, armored vehicles had to force it on special high-speed disposable equipment. And the first convoys from the USA could arrive in Europe only in three weeks.

Giving priority to naval aviation as the main force at sea, the military-political leadership of the USSR either assigned the AV only the role of one of the air defense weapons (N. S. Khrushchev) to cover what communications were unknown (after all, the USSR had them only on land or in the coastal zone and they , of course, did not require AB to cover), or completely denied the need to create such ships (G. K. Zhukov). If they viewed an aircraft carrier as a floating mobile airfield with a whole division of naval aviation on board, then the expediency of building even a small number of AVs would have been justified by their own priority of naval aviation. Finally, the danger of the destruction of stationary objects with nuclear weapons required the deployment of a mobile fleet-based system. But AB is actually such. Unfortunately, in the speeches of naval sailors concerning the AV, the latter were also considered as a means of air defense of various connections of surface ships.

As we see, in 50 – 60-s, the leaders of the country, not opposing the construction of an AB in principle, simply did not know the goals of this construction. But the naval specialists could not (or did not want?) Correctly orient the government, leaving its views on the AB at the level of 20 – 30's.

Fantastic offers
Finally, at the beginning of 70, some of the leaders of the Soviet Navy began to realize that “powerful rocket weapons” could not by itself solve all the problems arising in confrontation with the US Navy even at its shores, including with American aircraft-carrier strike formations ( AUS), for which a very good air defense system was created. Turned around design work on the first domestic aircraft carriers, similar to AB of the United States.

In 1973, the finished advance design of an aircraft carrier with a nuclear power plant (NPP) of the 1160 project with a displacement of approximately 100 000 tons was on the table at the Minister of Defense of the USSR A. A. Grechko. Marshal then said: “Why are you there for wisdom! Make, like the Americans, with such a fleet. ” He personally crossed out the rocket cellar with RCC, so beloved domestic admirals, with a blue pencil, and wrote the composition of the air group: Su-24K deck bombers, Su-27K fighter jets and attack aircraft (then the conventional name "Buran") and a number of other aircraft. The head of the military department immediately determined the universal purpose of the ship.

Grechko was the only Minister of Defense of the USSR who correctly understood the naval issues and clearly defined the tasks of domestic AVs. Unfortunately, after his death in 1976, the project was “shut down” and speculation began on the well-known words of L. I. Brezhnev: “Carrier aircraft are the weapon of the aggressor.” Who wrote this for the Secretary General, in principle, it is unclear. But since Brezhnev infinitely respected Grechko and never said anything without agreeing with the Politburo and, of course, with him, then this phrase could hardly belong to him.

At the end of 70, an ardent supporter of all sorts of science fiction (WIG, large air-cushion warships, vertical take-off and landing aircraft, etc.) the new USSR Minister of Defense DF Ustinov nevertheless allowed to design and build an aircraft carrier as a heavy aircraft carrying cruiser (Tavkr). During construction, he received the design number 11435, and after 1991 of the year, his deserved name was “Admiral Kuznetsov” (the full name is long and does not correspond to the traditions of the Russian fleet). However, it was also written on the design specification for the design of this ship by the hand of the Navy Commander Admiral S. G. Gorshkov: “Place 12 – 24 anti-ship missiles, power plant is a boiler-turbine”. So to build a full AB again failed.

Later it turned out that the ban on the AEU imposed Ustinov, and Gorshkov did not strongly object. Moreover, he suffered for a long time, as if his beloved PKPs were to be connected with the AB planes. According to the memoirs of the head of the 1 Central Directorate of the Central Research Institute of Rear Admiral B. A. Kolyzaev, one of Gorshkov’s assistants suggested considering the anti-ship missiles as non-returnable attack aircraft, and the ship-based fighters as a means of defending and tracking the flight to the target. “Now I know why aircraft carriers are for us!” Admiral S. G. Gorshkov happily answered.

Admiral N.N. Amelko, Deputy Chief of the General Staff for the Navy (1979 – 1986), was distinguished by a special approach to the development of the Navy and in general to the surface fleet. He wrote to every imaginable and unimaginable authority right up until his death: “Surface ships with a displacement of more than 2000 tons are nonsense and unnecessary expenses for the country, and submarines must be built”.

Admiral N. I. Smirnov, First Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, distinguished himself with an original “approach” (although many naval commanders later said that these were all Gorshkov's ideas), who personally supervised the development of the “armored missile cruiser” with a 80 displacement 100 tons in 000s with 1000 percussion missiles, a kind of revival of the Japanese superlinkor like Yamato. But this ship, instead of AV, the Main Headquarters of the Navy continued to support and push into the programs of military shipbuilding under the guise of "coastal missile cruiser" until the middle of the 90-s. The compilers of these programs barely got out of such strange ideas. Naturally, the ministers of defense of the USSR, well-versed only in tanks and artillery, unconditionally believed the leadership of the Navy, and it sometimes gave rise to very strange ideas.
155 comments
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  1. +5
    1 October 2012 07: 00
    The article is good, but ours did the right thing that they were not built. The tasks then were simply to defend the global, well-known enemy, who was much more numerous and rich. And for this it was possible to do without such expensive toys.
    1. Mikado
      +2
      1 October 2012 07: 42
      I agree. The Americans sit from the whole world across two oceans, all of their "vital interests" are on other continents, and they have naval bases all over the world. We had a completely different situation. And what an interesting message from the article, they say, everyone - Kuznetsov, Gorshkov, Ustinov, Amelko, Smirnov - are fools, they did not understand anything in the fleet, Grechko alone was great, he died only early.
      1. ded
        0
        2 October 2012 00: 17
        And what an interesting message from the article, they say everything - Kuznetsov, Gorshkov, Ustinov, Amelko, Smirnov - fools, they didn’t understand anything in the fleet, only Grechko did well, he died only early.


        Yes, fools, and soon the author of the article will be attracted for the disclosure of state secrets.
    2. 0
      1 October 2012 16: 50
      Quote: Magadan
      The tasks then were just to defend

      ACG solve political problems.
      In a sense: Ultima ratio regum
      drinks
  2. bask
    +2
    1 October 2012 07: 34
    When the situation allowed, the article did not take into account the post-war DEVELOPMENT and the constant assistance to social countries, etc. .. Funds were created in the 70s. It is very unfortunate that the aircraft carrier Varyag, created in the 80-90s at the Nikolaev shipyards. And now, according to its characteristics, it is the most modern in the world .. Russia needs to have its own carrier fleet. There is one aircraft carrier for each fleet. And modern Russia has 2 times more enemies than the USSR. Unfortunately, 2a but less. Friends. The Navy is the guarantee that Russia continues to be a world power.!
    1. +10
      1 October 2012 07: 46
      In vain you are talking about the Varangian, this is nothing more than the Kuzma sistership, which unfortunately, like any fruit of naval compromises, turned out to be a weak aircraft carrier and not so hot cruiser. Ulyanovsk was to become a really serious aircraft carrier, this ship had a serious aircraft wing and an appropriate power plant.
      At the expense of enemies you are absolutely right.
      1. Tirpitz
        +2
        1 October 2012 10: 50
        Quote: Sakhalininets
        Ulyanovsk was to become a really serious aircraft carrier, this ship had a serious aircraft wing and an appropriate power plant.

        You +. And most importantly, they began to develop a DLOU aircraft for it. Without them, even an av of the "Nimitz" type loses half of its power.
    2. +2
      1 October 2012 07: 53
      Quote: bask
      Friends unfortunately in 2a but. Less

      Does Russia have friends?
      Quote: bask
      .Navy pledge that Russia continues to be a world power.!

      Not only the Navy, in its geographical position, allows Russia to be a world power. The United States has a strong fleet, but the United States is a position of power, not a world leader of a power. England and Spain at all times had powerful fleets, but they did not become world powers in all senses of the word. Spain lost the fleet and there is no power, Angia is the same, and Russia, although it suffered serious losses, remains the power.
      1. +4
        1 October 2012 08: 08
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        Does Russia have friends?


        No one has friends, there are interests and, accordingly, the countries against which they are friends
  3. iulai
    +2
    1 October 2012 07: 37
    and at the present time overslept with drones! were going to buy from Israel. It seems to me that only thieves, grandchildren of generals and marshals who do not see beyond their own nose, have gathered at the General Staff.
    1. +3
      1 October 2012 08: 10
      Quote: iulai
      in the General Staff gathered some thieves, grandchildren of generals and marshals,


      Yes, you won’t lure them into the army, it’s not the time when the children of the rulers went to the army
      1. Fox 070
        +1
        1 October 2012 13: 32
        Quote: Vadivak
        now is not the time when the children of rulers went to the army

        You are absolutely right! The growing offspring of our first (and second, third, etc.) individuals of the state and business are growing cosmopolitans, people absolutely unprincipled.
        As for the General Staff and the Defense Ministry, in my opinion, the real enemies of the state have dug in there, and besides, they are also greedy for all sorts of blessings to their beloved ones. And it’s time for the president to think long ago whether these bloodsucking ghouls are sitting in their place.
    2. Insurgent
      0
      1 October 2012 08: 11
      In tests from 10 Russian tanks, only 2 were believed back so you offer such systems you will put into service and your domestic ones will pass all the tests
      1. 0
        1 October 2012 09: 57
        Quote: Insurgent
        tests from 10 Russian tanks only 2 was believed back, so you propose such systems will be put into service and your domestic ones will pass all tests


        Russia has its own UAVs and good ones.

        Peter Van Blinburg, president of UVS International, announced with admiration in February 2009 that Russia was on the verge of a rapid development of unmanned aerial systems. He noted that in a number of areas Russia is already a leader. In particular, in our country for the first time they began to use unmanned equipment for aviation monitoring in the interests of the fuel and energy complex.

        Colonel General Vyacheslav Meleshko, Chairman of the Board of Directors of STC RISSA, focused on the fact that Russia has created fully automatic unmanned aerial vehicles of aircraft and helicopter types, which even Israel, a recognized leader in this industry, does not have:
        "At our own expense, we have developed and produced UAVs of aircraft and helicopter types, which are not inferior in their tactical and technical characteristics, and in a number of parameters are superior to foreign models, including those of Israeli production. In particular, we have created UAV robots, which Israel does not have it. These are unique micro-flying devices and devices for solving strategic tasks, "the military leader said. According to him, the 'drones' developed at the STC surpass all foreign models not only in terms of complete robotization, but also in the originality of the design, the reliability of the control system and data transmission, and most importantly, in the ease of operation and user training.

        Infa taken from here: http://inventions.ru/post_1240934694.shtml
        1. Insurgent
          +1
          1 October 2012 12: 18
          All this is a Baltalogy, the only tank that was developed in KB instant and that was ruined by the army bureaucrats popovkin, etc.
          1. +1
            1 October 2012 14: 50
            Quote: Insurgent
            the only tank that was developed in kb instantly and it was ruined by the army bureaucrats popovkina, etc.

            In the Soviet Union, the 1st generation BSR La-17R and Tu-123 entered service in the early 60s. The La-17R tactical unmanned reconnaissance aircraft (TBR-1, ed. 204) was created in 1959 by OKB S.A. Lavochkina based on the unmanned target La-17M (Vol. 203). The flight tests took place at the training ground of the Air Force Research Institute in Akhtubinsk and in 1962 it was put into service. In the same year, the Smolensk aircraft plant launched its mass production, which lasted about three years. In 1965, this remotely piloted aircraft (UAV) was modified and received the designation La-17RM (ed. 204M).
            The assignment for the development of the Tu-123 (DBR-1) "Yastreb" long-range unmanned reconnaissance complex was received by the Tupolev Design Bureau in 1959. * The basis of this complex was an aircraft with a high supersonic speed and a flight range of about 4000 km, equipped with highly efficient photo- and radio intelligence equipment. For example, photographic equipment made it possible to identify railway sleepers in pictures taken from an altitude of 20 km at a flight speed of 2700 km / h. In 1964, the Yastreb successfully passed state tests at the Air Force Research Institute. Serially produced in Voronezh. The complex was adopted in 1963 and was in operation until 1979.
            Tactical RPV (Remotely piloted aircraft) "Pchela-1T" was developed according to the terms of reference of the Research Institute "Kulon" in the design bureau named after A.S. Yakovlev.
            The development of the modification "Pchela-1T" (ed. 61) has been carried out since 1982, after the release of the Resolution of the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of Ministers of the USSR on the creation of complexes with remotely piloted aircraft. Before that, on an initiative basis, they worked with the "Pchela-1M" of the first generation (ed. 60).
            The use cases for Bees are diverse. This UAV can suppress radio stations within a radius of 15 km. It is also possible to use it as a target, a UAV simulates an airplane at a speed of 100-180 km / h and a flight altitude of up to 2,5 km.
    3. mongoose
      0
      1 October 2012 08: 26
      a fairy tale, drones are already producing at the very least in Russia, and Israeli ones were needed to determine the performance characteristics
      1. +3
        1 October 2012 08: 30
        Quote: mongoose
        and Israeli were needed to determine the performance characteristics
        And why, then, are they riveted in Koltsov at the Aviation Plant under license?
        1. +2
          1 October 2012 09: 36
          Good morning!
          I liked the article, only one was confused
          At the end of the 70's, an ardent supporter of all fiction (ekranoplanes, large hovercraft, vertical take-off and landing aircraft, etc.)

          Why is this "fantasy" - these are new promising developments that have found their place, maybe not all, but ...
          APRO drones: our comrades quite successfully cope with the design of drones, and clearly know for what needs to change the performance characteristics. There are a lot of examples (google to help, I won’t clog the links)
          Well, at least here’s the second http://inventions.ru/post_1240934694.shtml
          And they didn’t oversleep with drones ... Designers, engineers, theorists, understood their need, not all military, so to speak, practitioners understood, and began to develop long ago ...
        2. 0
          1 October 2012 12: 01
          And why, then, are they riveted in Koltsov at the Aviation Plant under license?
          But how many UAVs are currently producing? How has this accelerated the development of ours?
  4. Captain Vrungel
    +3
    1 October 2012 07: 53
    Carriers are needed to carry out police tasks in regional conflicts, where the United States loves to poke.
    In global wars, the aircraft carrier is the number one target for submarine, surface, air, missile forces. Escort ships will not save either. Ammunition is not enough for a massive attack. With modern tracking equipment, its position will always be known to the accuracy of the coordinates of the admiral's cabin.
    1. +4
      1 October 2012 08: 20
      Greetings Yuri. Here is a sober thought, an intelligent person. I’m already tired of proving that in a global conflict, an underwater fleet and cruisers are much more effective, as well as a small fleet such as frigates and corvettes near the coastline. The destroyer is an auxiliary ship for guarding the BDK and no more. And then their use will have an effect already at the onset. And who are we going to attack in the near future? We should protect ourselves.
      1. Captain Vrungel
        +2
        1 October 2012 08: 34
        Hello, Eugene! A surface fleet is needed, but in a slightly different class. TARK is also a target. It can be replaced by several smaller, more aggressive ships with similar offensive weapons and means of self-defense (to a lesser extent, of course), which can operate both in a pack and independently, with nuclear power plants, so as not to be tied to supply tankers.
        1. +3
          1 October 2012 09: 07
          Quote: Captain Vrungel
          It can be replaced by several smaller, more aggressive ships with similar offensive weapons and means of self-defense (to a lesser extent, of course), which can operate both in a pack and autonomously,
          In principle, the tactics can be different. And small strike groups are also a good option. But it seems to me to have 3-5 TARKs. Our 088 "Ustinov" such horror directed at everyone (I remember from the service).
          Quote: Captain Vrungel
          with nuclear power plants, so as not to be tied to supply tankers.
          Well, here I do not know. It is too cumbersome and it is necessary to consider how this will affect the course.
      2. Vito
        +4
        1 October 2012 09: 22
        Steam Locomotive (3) Good morning dear to you! hi
        Quote: Steam Train
        The destroyer is an auxiliary ship for guarding the BDK and no more.

        Let me object. The missile cruisers themselves need reliable cover if they are in the faraway oceans! And if our leadership decided to get hold of the MISTRALS, then they will have to be protected by the same destroyers. And then the destroyer is a universal type of weapon, it can and must destroy not only targets on the water, but also on land! To do this, he must have a good supply of missiles. I don’t even speak about boats.
        1. +3
          1 October 2012 09: 30
          Quote: Vito
          The missile cruisers themselves need reliable cover if they are in the faraway oceans! And if our leadership decided to get hold of the MISTRALS, then they will have to be protected by the same destroyers. And then the destroyer is a universal type of weapon, it can and must destroy not only targets on the water, but also on land!
          That is yes. It’s just that at the moment we can’t afford such a variety.
          1. Vito
            +2
            1 October 2012 09: 46
            Yes, diversity so far, which is not for us. But we need to think for the future, and there undoubtedly we need aircraft carriers and destroyers and frigates and submarines (where we are without them), and the auxiliary fleet has not been canceled either!
            But when all this will be, personally I would like to see all this beautiful power with my own eyes!
            1. +2
              1 October 2012 09: 54
              Quote: Vito
              But when all this will be, personally I would like to see all this beautiful power with my own eyes!
              And I would love to drinks
              But the facts speak differently. Now I myself deal with steering problems on Project 20385. And for these problems, the endings are not yet visible. And the ships need yesterday.
              1. +2
                1 October 2012 12: 04
                And for these problems, the endings are not yet visible. And the ships need yesterday.
                As the ancients said, "The road will be mastered by the one walking."
                If you do not deal with problems, they will not go anywhere.
                By the way, how do you like the project 20385?
                1. +2
                  1 October 2012 12: 14
                  Quote: leon-iv
                  By the way, how do you like the project 20385?
                  In principle, a promising apparatus. Fully electronic control of weapons, travel and steering. According to the designers, very high survivability, seaworthy good laid. Well, in general, how can you not like what you are putting your strength into? smile But this is a corvette, but I would like just 22350 more (and more) to lock the borders tightly. But what can we do for now. recourse
                  1. Captain Vrungel
                    +2
                    1 October 2012 12: 39
                    Project 22350 are Admiral Gorshkov-class frigates? Russia plans to put into operation 2020 ships by 10. Roughly, one a year is not enough, but this is a start. The main thing is that the ship and shipbuilding is being revived. Will increase power and gain momentum. Good luck to the shipbuilders.
              2. Captain Vrungel
                +3
                1 October 2012 12: 31
                Eugene! Good luck in solving steering problems. Corvette handsome and decent weapons. TTD are good.
                1. +2
                  1 October 2012 21: 10
                  Yuri. Everything would be so good, I would not be a pessimist. belay What is happening in our Moscow region, well, you better not know that. And as we break through new ships, well, that’s not Hurray far.
                  Quote: Captain Vrungel

                  Eugene! Good luck in solving steering problems.
                  but thanks for that. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
    2. +4
      1 October 2012 08: 22
      Quote: Captain Vrungel
      Escort ships will not save


      Then what are they for?
      1. +2
        1 October 2012 08: 25
        Quote: Vadivak
        Then what are they for?
        This is mainly a fact of intimidation. And a platform for aviation and bombing of countries with weak air defense. Imagine the effectiveness of the AUG if they lose 50% of the air group.
        1. +7
          1 October 2012 09: 14
          Quote: Steam Train
          This is mainly a fact of intimidation.


          I'm not talking about this, I'm talking about escort ships,

          In addition to the aircraft carrier, the AUG includes: one two missile cruisers, up to three destroyers, and about four frigates, as well as one or two hunter-class submarines. A total of 11 to 12 ships.
          At the forefront with a significant margin from the main group is a nuclear submarine. The second submarine, depending on the situation, can move in any of the sectors of the perimeter, strengthening the defense of the warrant in a dangerous direction. Usually these are submarines "hunters" for submarines. Their main role is advanced acoustic patrol and parry underwater threats to an aircraft carrier and other ships of the compound.

          Flanks usually cover URA (guided missile defense) cruisers. They are the basis of combat protection of the aircraft carrier group. The arsenal of these warships includes the most advanced combat assets - an air defense missile system, Tomahawk or Harpoon missiles and anti-submarine guided missiles.

          Sector and rear cover is provided by missile destroyers and frigates. The newest Arleigh Burke type destroyers are not inferior to modern cruisers in armament. Thanks to the Tomahawk missiles, these warships are able to attack surface targets remote from the coast.

          Frigates are the most compact ships of an aircraft carrier strike group. Their main task is to detect and destroy enemy submarines. These ships have a powerful sonar system with an extended towed antenna. The frigates also have missile weapons, but only short-range ones.
          When the AUG arrives in a given area, two aircraft begin to be on alert in the air. On the deck of an aircraft carrier in constant readiness are two or three F-14 “Tomcat” interceptors. Their main weapon is the Phoenix missile with a range of up to 180 km.

          In general, not everything is as simple as it seems
          1. DIMS
            0
            1 October 2012 09: 27
            Quote: Vadivak
            When the AUG arrives in a given area, two aircraft begin to be on alert in the air. On the deck of an aircraft carrier in constant readiness are two or three F-14 “Tomcat” interceptors. Their main weapon is the Phoenix missile with a range of up to 180 km.

            F-14 discontinued in 2006
          2. +3
            1 October 2012 09: 37
            Kakby everything is correct, only here ... the information is outdated :)))
            Quote: Vadivak
            When the AUG arrives at a given area, the two aircraft begin to keep combat duty in the air.

            Usually at the AUG junction (if the radio silence mode is observed) 1-2 Growler + a pair of fighters are constantly hanging in the water - a couple of fighters are engaged in passive reconnaissance :)))) 2 fighter. Well, if you know the direction from which it is worth waiting for trouble, then 4 such groups are formed, and one of them can go a distance to 2 km in the direction of threat and the second - no further than 600 km from AB. It turns out echelon air defense + standing in full combat on the catapults reinforcement
            Quote: Vadivak
            Frigates are the most compact aircraft carrier strike group.

            Frigates are not included in the AUG. And now they are almost gone.
            Quote: Vadivak
            On the deck of an aircraft carrier in constant readiness mode there are two or three F-14 "Tomcat" interceptors. Their main weapon rocket "Phoenix" with a range of up to 180 km.

            Tomkat retired in 2006 g, phoenix - too.
  5. Brother Sarych
    +1
    1 October 2012 08: 08
    Aircraft carriers for Russia at the moment are more likely bad show than a conscious need! Yes, it would be nice to have, but it is quite possible to get by!
    The article contains many erroneous messages - in the Black Sea it would be quite possible to cover ships from the shore. if there would be fighters with normal range in aviation! The planes were simply not suitable for this, and the interaction was established in a precautionary way, so this is more a claim against aircraft builders and the organization of the Air Force! Equally, no aircraft carrier would help in the Baltic, it would only add to the list of losses! The Germans could concentrate their forces from the coast for powerful raids, but ours could not cover up from the same coast for a number of reasons - again, claims to the Air Force! And in the North, our planes only at their bases could operate, because the planes were not suitable for flying over the sea ...
    1. mongoose
      +1
      1 October 2012 08: 24
      I do not agree, in the light of the battle for the Arctic, aircraft carriers are needed, permafrost was not so eternal
      1. +2
        1 October 2012 08: 43
        Quote: mongoose
        in the light of the battle for the Arctic, aircraft carriers are needed,

        Yes, I would really like to see takeoffs and landings at low temperatures)
        1. +6
          1 October 2012 08: 56
          Googling the actions of American AB from Norway. It seems to fly in t.ch. and with negative. There is nothing technically impossible.
          1. Brother Sarych
            +1
            1 October 2012 09: 48
            In fact, Norway is just uncountable - there is almost the warmest place in the Arctic ...
            1. +3
              1 October 2012 10: 03
              But they flew anyway with negative ones :))) And from Norway it’s not too far from us ...
    2. Tirpitz
      +3
      1 October 2012 11: 20
      Quote: Brother Sarich
      Aircraft carriers for Russia at the moment are more likely bad show than a conscious need!

      And how to cover the deployment areas of strategic nuclear submarines?
      1. +1
        1 October 2012 11: 23
        Quote: Tirpitz
        how to cover the deployment areas of strategic nuclear submarines?

        Do they need to be covered up or unmasked? Does the USA have AUG for every Ohio in the sea of ​​volochits?
        If anything, let them shoot straight from the pier, or best of all, break the ice from the North Pole.
        1. +4
          1 October 2012 11: 30
          Quote: Kars
          Do they need to be covered up or unmasked? Does the USA have AUG for every Ohio in the sea of ​​volochits?

          There is a little difference. We practically have no opportunity to track Ohio in the same Silent. But the US has the ability to track our SSBNs in the same north
          1. +1
            1 October 2012 11: 39
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But the United States has the ability to track our SSBNs in the same north

            And how does that change the aircraft carrier?
            1. +4
              1 October 2012 11: 51
              Sure. Helicopters PLO carrier-based wing - this is a very serious threat to enemy nuclear submarines. It will become much more difficult to "fall on the tail" of SSBNs
              1. Antipetian 1
                0
                1 October 2012 12: 52
                What nonsense! Prey (aircraft carrier) preys on the hunter (PL). Well this is generally - a gun
                1. +3
                  1 October 2012 13: 08
                  Quote: Antipetyan 1
                  Well, it's all - gun

                  Why is the gun? Just your blatant incompetence ...
                  1. Antipetian 1
                    -1
                    1 October 2012 13: 11
                    My? This is exactly a gun. I would look at this gunner , which on AUGs is hunting for submarines throughout the Atlantic. Even in the USSR they did not think of such a thing!
                    1. +3
                      1 October 2012 13: 32
                      laughing
                      It was about the tasks of our aircraft carrier. And not the US AUG
                      Quote: Antipetyan 1
                      I would have looked at such an artilleryman who hunts for submarines in the AUGs for the submarines throughout the Atlantic. Even in the USSR, they did not think of such a thing!

                      So I say - YOUR OUTCOMING INCOMPETENCE. For the USSR was preparing to chase American submarines across all seas and oceans, creating a six TAVKR with PLO helicopters as the basis of the air group. And a bunch of BOD to them
                      1. Antipetian 1
                        -2
                        1 October 2012 13: 35
                        Wow! References to me on this. Wikipedia doesn’t count
                      2. +3
                        1 October 2012 14: 04
                        Quote: Antipetyan 1
                        Wow! Link me to this.

                        Falling back. You can before the discussion to climb, at least some basics would learn, eh?
                        By a government decree of September 2, 1968, No. 685-251, a joint proposal was adopted by the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Justice Industry to start building the 1143 Kiev anti-ship missile system with aircraft weapons.
                        The following tasks were assigned to the ships of this project:
                        cover ships from air strikes, their anti-submarine and anti-cathering support;
                        ensuring combat sustainability of the SSBN in combat patrol areas;
                        ensuring the deployment of submarines;
                        cover for naval missile-carrying, anti-submarine and reconnaissance aircraft in the zone of reach of ship-based fighter aircraft;
                        search and destruction of enemy missile submarines as part of groups of diverse anti-submarine forces;
                        defeat groups of surface ships of the enemy;
                        ensuring the landing of amphibious assault forces.
                        http://www.atrinaflot.narod.ru/2_mainclassships/01_takr_1143/0_1143_1.htm Это так, навскидку.
                      3. Antipetian 1
                        -1
                        1 October 2012 14: 14
                        as part of groups of heterogeneous anti-submarine forces;

                        That is, the action line about the action "in the composition" suddenly turned TAKRs into "hunters for submarines"?

                        And you have something else for me here:

                        Falling back. You can before the discussion to climb, at least some basics would learn, eh?
                      4. +2
                        1 October 2012 14: 23
                        Quote: Antipetyan 1
                        oh is there an action line about the action "in the composition" suddenly turned TAKRs into "hunters for submarines"?

                        laughing laughing laughing
                        The rest is your homework. Read (yes, at least on the same Atrina) about why the previous project (1123) was built, because googled what was meant by "the ship of the far-field PLO", about how and why the 1123 project developed in 1143 ... In general, granite science is waiting
                      5. Antipetian 1
                        -1
                        1 October 2012 14: 29
                        More the guns did not hear. TAKR - killers of submarines. Oh well. Say hello to mom
                      6. +4
                        1 October 2012 14: 55
                        The patient is hopeless Yes
                        In short, go already, do not disgrace, read the atrin for a start
                      7. Antipetian 1
                        -1
                        1 October 2012 14: 58
                        That is, it looks like this: go to sea TAKR and begins to search for submarines on his head to destroy it? I really wonder if adequate can believe this.
                      8. +3
                        1 October 2012 16: 42
                        http://navycollection.narod.ru/ships/Russia/Carriers/PKR_Proect_1123/history.htm
                        l
                      9. 0
                        1 October 2012 15: 17
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        For the USSR was just preparing to chase American submarines across all the seas and oceans, creating a six TAVKR with PLO helicopters as the basis of the air group. And a bunch of BOD to them


                        No matter how it is.
                        1. In connection with the adoption by the Government of the USSR in early 1968 of the decision to form the 7th operational squadron, the 2th BEM (destroyer brigade crew) was expelled from the 170nd division of anti-submarine ships. The squadron during its formation included the light cruiser “Murmansk” and 6 destroyers of the 170th destroyer brigade (“Indestructible”, “Modest”, “Moskovsky Komsomolets”, “Conscious”, “Experienced” and “Lively”). The management of the 7th OpEsk was formed on February 1, 1968.
                        The main objectives of the OPESK were identified:
                        and. Search and tracking of foreign submarines, aircraft carrier and other ship groups in readiness for their destruction;
                        b. Protection of their shipping and disruption of enemy sea lanes;
                        c. Ensuring the deployment of our submarines in areas of military mission, as well as a number of other tasks of a military and military-political nature.
                        2. On December 28, TAVKR “Kiev” arrived at the Northern Fleet (factory number 101). TAVKR enrolled in the 170th brigade of the PK.
                        That is, they did not create "a six TAVKR with PLO helicopters as the basis of an air group. And a bunch of APCs for them," but introduced them into the already created opex for reinforcement.
                      10. +3
                        1 October 2012 16: 41
                        Quote: Aleksys2
                        In connection with the adoption by the Government of the USSR at the beginning of the 1968 of the year of a decision on the formation of the 7-th operational squadron

                        Dear Aleksys2!
                        The fact is that you are now writing about 7 opsk tasks. I meant OTZ for project 1123 and 1143. According to the operational-tactical assignment approved by the Commander of the Navy S.G. Gorshkov on January 31, 1959, the main purpose of the future "Moscow" was to search for and destroy enemy SSBNs and multipurpose submarines in the distant zones of PLO as part of a ship search and strike group and in cooperation with other ships and anti-submarine aircraft of the Navy. Interestingly, the creation of Project 1143 came from a similar OTZ, but in my opinion, even before they were put into operation, the task of driving imported SSBNs across the oceans was removed. But ships are designed precisely for this task.
                      11. +1
                        1 October 2012 19: 17
                        No one canceled the task of driving SSBNs. If you carefully look at my post, then this is precisely the task included in the tasks of OPESK. And the story is as follows:
                        Since the second half of the 50s. XX century US Navy replenished nuclear submarines. These were torpedo, multi-purpose, and missile-bearing, such as George Washington and Iten Allen. The latter carried 16 Polaris A-1 ballistic missiles each, capable of overcoming up to 2200 km and hitting strategic targets from the territory of the World Ocean in the territory of the Soviet Union. At that time, to counteract them, the Soviet Navy had ordinary destroyers, patrol officers, boats, submarine hunters and coastal aircraft, but all of them could operate only in the "near zone". Now, ships intended for operations in distant seas and oceans were needed, carrying carrier-based aviation, for only it, as the experience of the Second World War showed, is capable of quickly detecting and destroying enemy submarines.
                        At first, several classic destroyers, watchdogs and missile carriers were converted into anti-submarine ones. They were equipped with means for detecting and destroying the underwater enemy, and in the aft part they arranged a runway for helicopters designed by N.I. Kamova. But this was not enough, the fleet needed ships of a special design that could conduct a continuous search for submarines of a probable enemy in the ocean.
                        In 1957, the Main Staff of the Navy suggested that research teams working in the field of designing warships develop an effective means of detecting and destroying enemy nuclear missile carriers. The creation of such a ship was approved in 1958 by a joint decision of the Central Committee of the CPSU and the Council of Ministers of the USSR. In 1958, TsKB-17 prepared a technical proposal for a small ship of a special design, as well as a larger anti-submarine helicopter carrier based on unfinished ones at the insistence of N.S. Khrushchev artillery cruisers project 68 bis (type "Sverdlov"). However, in the opinion of the same Khrushchev, our fleet did not need large warships, therefore, in the upcoming project it was necessary to limit the displacement, size and number of crew, in other words, future anti-submarines had to cut their combat capabilities in advance.
                        Apparently, therefore, the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Admiral S.G. Gorshkov approved TTZ for an anti-submarine helicopter carrier equipped with only two helicopters.
              2. +1
                1 October 2012 14: 14
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Helicopters PLO deck carrier

                and it won’t show that it’s the Russian SSBN’s hoes? And why will they prevent helicopters from doing something? All the same, they won’t be able to drown enemy submarines, but unmask the position for a sweet soul.

                and speaking specifically, the only real task for the AUG of the Russian Federation is to bring the light of Russian democracy anywhere in the world ---
                1. Antipetian 1
                  -1
                  1 October 2012 14: 17
                  specifically speaking, the only real task for the AUG of the Russian Federation is to bring the light of Russian democracy anywhere in the world

                  Here is the main idea of ​​the whole discussion. The bottom line.
                  The idea of ​​TAKRs is not valid today
                2. +2
                  1 October 2012 14: 28
                  Quote: Kars
                  and it won’t show that she’s the Russian SSBN’s little one?

                  To some extent, it will, of course. Only then what? The nuclear submarine - "SSBN killer" is dangerous, which can quietly hear / notice / fall on the tail of our ship. And bang him at the very beginning of the conflict. And the presence of our TAVKR or AV changes the situation to the opposite - we now know where the enemy is and we ourselves can crash it.
                  Quote: Kars
                  And how do they prevent helicopters from doing something? They will still not be able to drown enemy submarines

                  How can it not? Even as they can, they are scary
                  1. -1
                    1 October 2012 15: 05
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    How can it not? Even as they can, they are scary

                    How can it? Preventively drown the American nuclear submarines that are watching the SSBN? And this is not a war case?
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And the presence of our TAVKR or AB changes the situation to the opposite - we now know where the enemy is here and we ourselves can bang him.

                    Or maybe it’s easier to turn on an active sonar on your submarine? Than to yearn for a tablet .. I'm here .. in the form of TAVKR.
                    Quote: Tirpitz
                    Aircraft carrier, this is the protection of the SSBN from anti-submarine aircraft and other anti-submarine means

                    I always thought that the protection of the nuclear submarines was her inconspicuous thing. Why should she sink? Then it’s easier to mount the ICBM mines in the barge and drag it in tow for the TAVKR.
                    Quote: Tirpitz
                    they are on duty in inland waters under the guise of their forces, as the chances of retaliating in the event of a conflict increase.

                    So why, then, an Aircraft Carrier --- a land-based PLO aircraft, PLO ships with 2-3 helicopters on board can cope with an underwater threat. But a full-fledged AUG somehow does not look so good in this task.
                    1. +5
                      1 October 2012 16: 57
                      Quote: Kars
                      How can it? Preventively drown the American nuclear submarines that are watching the SSBN? And this is not a war case?

                      Here is the area in which we wanted to deploy our SSBNs. Suddenly a period of international tension sets in. The indicated area leaves the TAVKR and begins to methodically look for the enemy nuclear submarines. finds.
                      Above each nuclear submarine is our native BOD, our helicopters and maybe coastal anti-submarine aviation continues to look after them. They are under the hood.
                      And the SSBN is somewhere nearby. And we know where the US nuclear submarines are, and they don’t know where the SSBNs - do you think they can fall on the tail of our missile carrier?
                      And the American admirals are racking their brains - are the Russian SSBNs exactly in the area where the TAVKR operates? Or are they in a completely different place?
                      A PLO with 2-3 helicopters on board can cope with an underwater threat. But a full-fledged AOG somehow does not look so good in this task.

                      To ensure round-the-clock duty of a pair of turntables, they need approximately 14-16
                      1. +1
                        1 October 2012 18: 46
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Here is the area in which we wanted to deploy our SSBNs

                        Neutral waters?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The indicated area goes out TAVKR

                        This automatically places the deployment of the SSBN.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Nuclear submarine. finds.

                        So what?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And we know where the US submarines are, and they don’t know,

                        Why? I don’t see anything that interferes with the search for the US nuclear submarines.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        where is the SSBN - do you think they can fall on the tail of our missile carrier?

                        I don’t see what will hinder it. I also don’t see the reason why the USA AUG and additional nuclear submarines will not come to the indicated area.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        To ensure round-the-clock duty of a pair of turntables, they need approximately 14-16

                        Maybe --- but it will still be cheaper and more reliable than using TAVKR for this, especially when you yourself wrote that you still have to use BOD.
                        Moreover, if a war of 14-16 ships begins, it will be harder to drown than one big one.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And the American admirals are racking their brains - are the Russian SSBNs exactly in the area where the TAVKR operates?

                        So what? As Tirpitz said--

                        Quote: Tirpitz
                        The US has 40 Los Angeles.
                      2. +3
                        1 October 2012 21: 03
                        Quote: Kars
                        Neutral waters?

                        As you wish
                        Quote: Kars
                        This automatically places the deployment of the SSBN.

                        Dear Kars, have you tried to count? A pair of Ka-28 Pepelats are capable, under favorable conditions, in one flight to check a square with an area of ​​up to 2000 km2 (a square with a side of 45 km). So estimate how much area a TAVKR can check in a day. Yes, the admirals will know that there are SSBNs "somewhere in this area" - and how will this help them? Sorry, but the entire US nuclear arsenal will not be enough to "sift" "this area". Not to mention several submarines.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Why? I don’t see anything that interferes with the search for the US nuclear submarines.

                        In addition, at the SSBN, knowing the position of the US submarines, it will simply be able to chart a course that will never lead the SSBN to the nuclear submarine control zone? Probably nothing. But is this not enough?
                        Quote: Kars
                        I don’t see what will hinder it. I also don’t see the reason why the USA AUG and additional nuclear submarines will not come to the indicated area.

                        Where? To some Laptev’s sea or the arctic north ?! AUG? !!!
                        Quote: Kars
                        Maybe --- but it will still be cheaper and more reliable than using TAVKR for this, especially when you yourself wrote that you still have to use BOD.

                        Well, taking into account the fact that Nimitz is about 5-6 Arly Berkov at a cost ... A TAVKR the size of an English Quinn will cost some kind in the 4 BOD. Are you sure this is more reliable?
                      3. +1
                        1 October 2012 21: 36
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        that "somewhere in this area" there are SSBNs - and how will this help them?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        can check TAVKR per day. Yes, the admirals will know that there are SSBNs "somewhere in this area" - and how will this help them? Sorry, but the entire US nuclear arsenal is not enough to "sift" "this area

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But the United States has the ability to track our SSBNs in the same north


                        So all the same? Now without a district there is an opportunity, and then with a famous district there will not be --- HOW IT?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        that at the SSBN, knowing the position of the US submarines, it will simply be able to chart such a course

                        And how do you tell her if she is under water? And the course, as I understand it, will be bedshed where there is no TAVKR?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        To some Laptev’s sea or the arctic north ?! AUG? !!!

                        There, the TAVKR is operating, which means the AUG will be able to - and if this is the patrimony of the Russian Federation, then an ordinary BOD over a submarine will be able to control and repel enemy nuclear submarines.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        ... A TAVKR the size of an English Quinn would cost 4 BOD. Are you sure this is more reliable?

                        Well, if you build without trying to push everything into the ship with the PLO tasks, you can build a lot of PLO ships with improved ASG and all weapons from a couple of machine guns and anti-submarine torpedoes))))) 3 thing. (Torpedoes - well, maybe 5)
                      4. +2
                        2 October 2012 07: 11
                        Quote: Kars
                        So all the same? Now without a district there is an opportunity, and then with a famous district there will not be --- HOW IT?

                        And I suggest you once again to estimate the area of ​​this very district. Especially considering the fact that TAVKR is no easier to detect than AB.
                        Quote: Kars
                        And how do you tell her if she is under water? And the course, as I understand it, will be bedshed where there is no TAVKR?

                        What are the problems? Have we really forgotten how to transfer information to the submarine in underwater position?
                        Quote: Kars
                        There TAVKR operates? Means and AUG can-

                        Let's say. The only question is - if we do not have TAVKR (and the USA has a lot of AUGs) then who is stopping the Yankees from pushing their AUGs and blocking our deployment areas? And the SSBN will have to go without the support of its own aviation
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, if you build without trying to push everything into the ship with the PLO tasks, you can build a lot of PLO ships with improved ASG and all weapons from a couple of machine guns and anti-submarine torpedoes))))) 3 thing. (Torpedoes - well, maybe 5)

                        Can. Only from the point of view of cost / efficiency is terribly unprofitable - because such boats will not be able to solve any other problems.
                3. 0
                  1 October 2012 19: 18
                  Continued:
                  After that, the engineers of TsNIIVK and the institutes of the navy and the air forces prepared a TTZ project for a similar ship with the required minimum tonnage, but the number of “kamovs” was increased to 8, otherwise it would not be effective enough. And in TsKB-17 they developed a similar project a ship equipped with long-range sonar equipment, the Storm anti-submarine missile system, jet bombs and protected by the latest anti-aircraft guns of the time. However, according to military sailors and employees of the State Shipbuilding Committee, at least 10-14 helicopters should have been based on the future ship.
                  On September 29, 1960, the TTZ was basically approved, and on December 1 the project 1123 itself didn’t end there - we worked on 16 more options and only in March 1961 settled on the 23rd, providing for a displacement of 9300 tons, speed of 29 knots and a crew of 370 people.
                  The final draft of 1123 was "legalized" on January 25, 1962, but even after that it was brought into it the next changes and additions. So, it was necessary to bring the air group to 14 anti-submarine and rescue Ka-25 and Mi-8, therefore, to increase the hangar, accordingly, the number of crews, to introduce the latest models of radio equipment and weapons.
                  Although new, promising and promising ships in general turned out to be successful, they were far from ideal. During their operation, it turned out that 14 helicopters did not provide proper combat effectiveness.
                  And replaced the helicopter carriers of project 1123 came the heavy aircraft-carrying cruisers of project 1143
                  1. +1
                    1 October 2012 21: 04
                    I agree with everything. But then what are you discussing?
                    1. 0
                      1 October 2012 23: 16
                      It just seems to me that the tasks are
                      chasing American submarines across all seas and oceans
                      no one set. Most likely, the task was set as a search and tracking of foreign submarines, aircraft carrier and other naval groups in readiness for their destruction in the framework of ensuring the deployment of our submarines in combat mission areas.
                      1. +1
                        2 October 2012 07: 00
                        Nuuu ... actually the task was set precisely as the destruction of foreign SSBNs
                      2. 0
                        2 October 2012 14: 58
                        But not in all seas and oceans, but in the places of their deployment to attack the USSR.
                      3. +1
                        3 October 2012 08: 27
                        Well, for all the seas and oceans I’m ready to take it back.
                      4. 0
                        3 October 2012 09: 56
                        That's the end of the dispute drinks
            2. Tirpitz
              +2
              1 October 2012 14: 27
              Quote: Kars
              And how does that change the aircraft carrier?

              Aircraft carrier, this is the protection of the SSBN from anti-submarine aircraft and other anti-submarine weapons.
          2. 0
            1 October 2012 15: 04
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            But the United States has the ability to track our SSBNs in the same north

            Read about Operation Aport and Atrina.
            On May 29, 1985, 3 boats of Project 671RTM (K-299, K-324 and K-502), as well as K-488 (Project 671RT), simultaneously left Zapadnaya Litsa. A little later, K-147 (project 671) joined them. Of course, the entry into the ocean of a whole compound of nuclear submarines could not remain unnoticed by the US naval intelligence. However, her intense searches have yielded no results. At the same time, the Soviet nuclear submarines, acting covertly, themselves carried out intense work on tracking American missile submarines in their combat patrol areas and studied the tactics of the US Navy's anti-submarine aviation. The Americans were able to establish contact with only one submarine, already returning to base. Operation Aport ended on July 1.
            In March-June 1987, Operation Atrina, which was similar in scope, was carried out, in which 5 boats of Project 671 RTM - K-244, K-255, K-298, K-299 and K-524 took part. Although the Americans learned about the withdrawal of nuclear-powered ships from Zapadnaya Litsa, they lost them in the North Atlantic. The dramatic "spearfishing" began again, in which practically all the anti-submarine forces of the US Atlantic Fleet took part, to which British ships also joined. The concentration of anti-submarine forces was such that it seemed almost impossible to swim up for a radio session and air pumping. Nevertheless, our submarines managed to go unnoticed to the Sargasov Sea area, where the Soviet "veil" was finally discovered 48 days after the start of the operation. At the same time, Project 671RTM multipurpose submarines were mistaken for strategic submarine missile carriers, which increased the concern of the naval command and the political leadership of the United States.
            1. +3
              1 October 2012 15: 25
              Quote: Aleksys2
              Read about Operation Aport and Atrina.

              And then? Will we compare the capabilities of the USSR Navy in 1985 with the capabilities of the Russian Navy 2012?
              1. +1
                1 October 2012 15: 33
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                We will compare the capabilities of the USSR Navy in 1985 with the capabilities of the Russian Navy 2012


                And is it the Russian Navy 2012? request
                Vice Admiral Viktor V. Chirkov - May 5, 2012 - Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. Since August 9, 2012 - Admiral.
                1. +2
                  1 October 2012 16: 43
                  I meant all the incomparability of our capabilities then and now
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2012 18: 55
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    I meant all the incomparability of our capabilities then and now

                    I understood...
        2. Tirpitz
          +3
          1 October 2012 14: 25
          Quote: Kars
          Do they need to be covered up or unmasked? Does the USA have AUG for every Ohio in the sea of ​​volochits?

          The US has 40 Los Angeles. And THEIR tactics is to meet our SSBNs at the exit from their bases and accompany, and, if necessary, destroy. That is why all (or almost all SSBNs) are on duty in internal waters under the cover of their forces, since the chances of striking back in the event of a conflict increase.
  6. 0
    1 October 2012 08: 42
    Quote: mongoose
    in the light of the battle for the Arctic, aircraft carriers are needed

    Yes, I would really like to see takeoffs and landings at low temperatures)
  7. +9
    1 October 2012 08: 54
    In the comments, members of the forum constantly skip 3 statements.
    1) Today, an aircraft carrier can be monitored in real time up to the position of the "admiral's cabin"
    2) Knowing the location of an aircraft carrier is easy to destroy.
    3) aircraft carrier task - unmotivated violence (and maybe even harassment) over the popus.
    Alas, these statements are incorrect. Firstly, it is very difficult to keep track of the aircraft carrier. Satellite reconnaissance systems are practically useless here - the United States has the most numerous network of junctions, but from the moment of the photo session to the moment the information appears in the corresponding headquarters, it runs from 24 to 36 hours, during which the AUG can shift to 1000 km.
    There is, however, another option - naval reconnaissance and target designation satellites like the USSR Legend, but they are very noticeable and vulnerable to anti-satellite missiles due to their low orbit and active target search systems. Therefore, you should not rely solely on satellites.
    For the rest, the reconnaissance capabilities of the AUG are much higher than the naval strike group without aircraft carriers - naturally due to deck aircraft and radar reconnaissance (Hokai) and electronic reconnaissance (Growlers) This is exactly what makes an aircraft carrier such a useful member of AUG :)))
    But let's say even AB is found. What's next? To bring the AUG to a state incompatible with combat activities, an outfit of forces is required, in general, exceeding the number of aircraft on the AB. Dear VAF, if my memory serves me, I spoke about 2 Tu-22M3 regiments under the cover of 2 fighter regiments with attached squadrons of electronic warfare and RTR aircraft. So - the problem is that we do not know in advance where the AUG will come from, and the aircraft have a limited combat radius. In other words, we cannot deploy a pair of such aircraft-killer aircraft carriers from each threatening direction, and a network of large airfields is needed for a rapid concentration of forces. But the construction and maintenance of such "jump airfields" is extremely expensive. In addition, they are vulnerable precisely because of their stationarity and can be put out of action by a preemptive strike.
    Therefore, the tactics developed in the USSR - when the main missile strike is inflicted by the Tu-22M3 and the "strategists" and covered by fighters from aircraft-carrying cruisers, it is very vital, because the TAVKR in this case is a self-run airfield, the location of which is no easier for the enemy to reveal than for us find his AB.
    So, if we understand that an aircraft carrier is FIRST, the most effective defense system of our shores, and only the second is a means of enlightening the natives on the edge of geography, then we will look at them differently ...
    1. Brother Sarych
      0
      1 October 2012 09: 52
      Personally, I’m not sure that the aircraft carrier can be monitored in real time (not in bad movies, you know), I’m not sure that the aircraft carrier is very easy to destroy, but I’m sure of your third statement!
      In my opinion, destroying the AUG is a thankless task, and it is decided much more effectively by striking Washington and other wonderful places of a potential enemy!
      While this is possible, you can not pay special attention to AUG ...
      1. Vito
        +3
        1 October 2012 10: 05
        Quote: Brother Sarich
        In my opinion, destroying the AUG is a thankless task, and it is decided much more effectively by striking Washington and other wonderful places of a potential enemy!
        While this is possible, you can not pay special attention to AUG ...

        Well, it’s good if this kodla far away from our shores will graze, but as a rule, when the conflict escalates, all this striking power goes straight ahead to the opponent’s bank! And on board the aircraft carrier there is a nuclear weapon. So, if we decide to strike at WASHINGTON, then the AUG, near our shores, will have to be destroyed in the first place or it will destroy us!
        1. Brother Sarych
          0
          1 October 2012 10: 15
          If they know that for us there is no moral reason to abandon a nuclear strike and there will be a technological opportunity to carry it out, the potential enemy’s ACG will walk very far from our shores ...
      2. +4
        1 October 2012 10: 07
        Quote: Brother Sarich
        While this is possible, you can not pay special attention to AUG ...

        Well, dear Brother Sarych, our nuclear weapons somehow did not stop the tie eater from hitting our peacekeepers. In the near future, AUG will no longer be symbols of the United States alone - India, and China and England, and Japan, I’m more than sure, will build a pair of heavy helicopter destroyers (thousands of 2040 tons with an air group in fifty aircraft including a dozen three F-60C), and there others will be pulled ...
        1. Brother Sarych
          +1
          1 October 2012 10: 14
          Does Georgia have many aircraft carriers? There’s a murky story there, it’s believed that everything was agreed there, but it didn’t go according to plan because of the initiative from below ...
          Well, there will be an aircraft carrier in India - and so what? What edge is he to us? But their missiles can threaten, yes ...
          And we are not a threat to the Chinese aircraft carrier - more should be worried about their ground forces on our border ...
          And how can Japanese helicopter carriers threaten Russia? Of course, if Russia really is determined to decisively rebuff, rather than nagging at the UN ...
          1. +3
            1 October 2012 10: 36
            Quote: Brother Sarich
            Does Georgia have many aircraft carriers?

            This is not the case - and that nuclear weapons from all threats will not protect.
            Quote: Brother Sarich
            And we are not a threat to the Chinese aircraft carrier - more should be worried about their ground forces on our border ...

            As for the land border - it is possible. But how will the butting of the ocean shelves with gigatons of mineral resources begin ... it will be late to drink Borjomi
            1. Antipetian 1
              -1
              1 October 2012 10: 39
              Damn, we are talking about aircraft carriers and their role, and here they dragged Georgia and school scholars! Stunned!
              What does one have to do with it?
              1. +2
                1 October 2012 10: 50
                I again step by step to paint you all? :)))) Try to comprehend what was said wink
                1. Antipetian 1
                  -1
                  1 October 2012 10: 53
                  And where does the locale? It seems like a speech for AUG and how to fill it up in modern realities?
                  1. +4
                    1 October 2012 11: 20
                    While AUG analogues very soon (in the coming 30-40 years) will appear in many powers, and not in the United States alone. And the AUG of England, Japan, China, and so on and so forth may well turn out to be active participants in a local conflict.
                    You see, there are enough situations in history when there were major (but local) conflicts without declaring war. Remember the Khalkhin-Gol the same. When the official operations of the USSR led to a state named Manchukuo — and the fact that divisions of the Japanese imperial army suddenly started to work in the army of this state — well, you will think, what the fuck does not happen to anyone ...
                    Let's say that there is a certain shelf and our Gazprom has climbed there to develop it. And suddenly AUG approaches, for example, China and begins to actively escort our people out of there ... What, with a cry "For Gazprom !!!" will we unpack the nuclear plague man? I don't think ... it will be bad in all respects, international politics is a delicate thing ...
                    In general, there are issues that nuclear weapons solves, but there are issues that nuclear weapons cannot solve
                    1. GP
                      GP
                      -3
                      1 October 2012 12: 26
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Khalkhin Gol

                      Not at all an appropriate comparison. Khalkhin Gol is the most ass of the continent. ACG countries are becoming fully economically dependent on marine resources and communications.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      And suddenly AUG approaches, for example, China and begins to actively escort our people out of there ... What, with a cry "For Gazprom !!!" unpack the nuclear plague man?

                      Yes, just so, unpack the nuclear case, because the threat of its use is protection against this kind of pranks.
                      1. +3
                        1 October 2012 12: 44
                        Quote: GP
                        It is not an appropriate comparison. Khalkhin-Gol is the continent’s ass.

                        It is important not the place where there was a conflict, but the fact that there was a conflict in which the Armed Forces of the USSR and Japan fought, but without declaring war.
                        Quote: GP
                        AUG acquires countries completely economically dependent on marine resources and communications.

                        Yeah. China for example laughing
                        Quote: GP
                        Yes, just so, unpack the nuclear case, because the threat of its use is protection against this kind of pranks.

                        Yeah. Now there is a very tragic situation in Finland - the family, which has both Finnish and Russian citizenship of children, has been taken away by the guardianship
                        Also we will threaten the loaf?
                      2. Antipetian 1
                        -2
                        1 October 2012 12: 56
                        Well, at least with the year 1812 analogy did not hold - and then thank God.
                        By the way, did someone here talk about AUG in Britishas and Japan? No comments
                        AUG in modern realities is a way to restore order in some regions, like the Persian Gulf and the Middle East among the Americans. Russia does not need to "steer" anywhere, therefore, the aircraft carrier is not needed today
                      3. +2
                        1 October 2012 13: 07
                        Quote: Antipetyan 1
                        Well, at least with the year 1812 analogy did not hold - and then thank God.

                        (heavy sigh) Once again I am convinced that the only lesson of History is that people do not learn any lessons from it.
                        Quote: Antipetyan 1
                        By the way, did someone here talk about AUG in Britishas and Japan? No comments

                        And thank God:))))
                      4. Antipetian 1
                        -3
                        1 October 2012 13: 08
                        You would still remember the Battle of Kulikovo
                      5. +1
                        1 October 2012 13: 38
                        Quote: GP
                        Not at all an appropriate comparison. Khalkhin Gol is the most ass of the continent
                        Please, another example, the conflict between Argentina and Great Britain over the Malvinas Islands (Falklands). A classic naval war without declaring war, where British aircraft carriers played a key role. They didn’t even use chemical weapons in World War II, it seemed that Hitler was already losing, and you immediately for nuclear ...
                      6. GP
                        GP
                        0
                        1 October 2012 15: 57
                        Quote: Per se.
                        Please, another example, the conflict between Argentina and Great Britain over the Malvinas Islands (Falklands). A classic naval war without declaring war, where British aircraft carriers played a key role. They didn’t even use chemical weapons in World War II, it seemed that Hitler was already losing, and you immediately for nuclear ...


                        "The Falklands War occupies a unique place in the military-political history" Further here about the Falklands.
                        http://historiwars.narod.ru/Index/XXv/Folk/F11.htm
                      7. +1
                        1 October 2012 16: 28
                        Quote: GP
                        "The Falklands War occupies a unique place in the military-political history" Further here about the Falklands.
                        http://historiwars.narod.ru/Index/XXv/Folk/F11.htm
                        And what did you mean by this to say - a separate, unique case, which is not an argument? So every war is unique in its own way, including such a large-scale military conflict between Argentina and Great Britain. Now China and Japan are straining their muscles at sea, also for the islands. When China attacked Damansky, and China, and, especially, the USSR, were nuclear powers, they fought without nuclear strikes. Please, do not distort or seduce demagogy.
        2. Vito
          +2
          1 October 2012 10: 18
          Andrei from ChelyabinskGreetings to you Friends! drinks
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          and there others will stretch ...

          I absolutely agree with you. The last hydrocarbon reserves are in the oceans and seas and diplomatic wars are being waged for them (many of them will go into the active phase, it is a matter of time), the one with a powerful fleet and, of course, an aircraft carrier will get more oil and gas!
          Many countries will go the way of JAPAN, mini-aircraft carriers, that is what will be in high demand in the near future!
          1. +4
            1 October 2012 10: 38
            And I welcome you categorically, the Honorable Vito!
            drinks
            Quote: Vito
            The last hydrocarbon reserves are in the oceans and seas, and now diplomatic wars are underway (many of them will go into the active phase, it is a matter of time), gas and oil will get more from those who have a powerful fleet and of course aircraft carrier!

            I subscribe to every word! Everything is exactly the same and no one should think that Russia's interests are limited exclusively to its land territory.
        3. Antipetian 1
          -2
          1 October 2012 10: 21
          World War III is impossible, as is the case with the US and NATO. Any such conflict is unrealistic and will be reduced to the transfer of nuclear weapons in all directions.
          1. +3
            1 October 2012 10: 34
            A possible conflict option between the two nuclear powers in which both refrain from using nuclear weapons, by analogy with WWII, when all countries had agents, but no one used them in battle.
            1. Antipetian 1
              0
              1 October 2012 10: 40
              Even according to the Soviet military doctrine with the English Channel, the time for using nuclear weapons is from half an hour to a month. No more. I won’t search for links, you can believe the word
              1. +3
                1 October 2012 10: 49
                Quote: Antipetyan 1
                Even according to the Soviet military doctrine with the English Channel - the time of the use of nuclear weapons from half an hour to a month

                Well, according to NATO, they could provide organized resistance to our invasion without nuclear weapons for as much as three days, just what does it have to do with it? I am talking to you about the situation when the parties refrain from using nuclear weapons. What does the Soviet military plans have to do with this?
                1. Antipetian 1
                  0
                  1 October 2012 10: 56
                  This hints that even with the forces that NATO and the ATS had with its equipment, desire and mobilization resources, a global nuclear strike was inevitable in any scenario. And I am silent about TNW, because part of the war
                  1. +1
                    1 October 2012 11: 24
                    Quote: Antipetyan 1
                    This hints that even with the forces that NATO and the ATS had with its equipment, desire and mobilization resources - a global strike of nuclear weapons was inevitable under any scenarios

                    Not. The option of using nuclear weapons of course was - but only at a certain level of resistance. Which really concentrated NATO forces in Europe simply would not render. There, the ratio of ground forces at all stages in the first 1,5-2 went like 2: 1 in our favor
                    1. Antipetian 1
                      -1
                      1 October 2012 12: 57
                      So what? This is exactly what speaks about the inevitable hell of the Third World War with nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons
                    2. Darck
                      +1
                      1 October 2012 13: 13
                      Which really concentrated NATO forces in Europe simply would not have had.
                      Even in Soviet times, the US fleet was larger than that of the USSR, I am silent about the entire NATO fleet. I doubt that the ground forces of the USSR could break NATO, especially in three days.
                      1. Antipetian 1
                        -1
                        1 October 2012 13: 15
                        West-81 makes fun of your comment! AUGs in Europe will not help
                      2. Darck
                        0
                        1 October 2012 13: 52
                        West-81 makes fun of your comment! AUGs in Europe will not help
                        You probably have some kind of general? Why should they help in Europe? Striking the USSR and sinking the fleet will help you a lot in this. Control of the corridors will significantly facilitate the transfer of American and British troops and equipment to the theater of war. Without a fleet, the USSR would be long not extended.
                        Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                        You look linearly, the ground forces alone will not achieve much, what good will they do when the NATO fleet presses them from all sides? And then the USSR itself would be bombed from all sides. It would be a very long war and three days like cost.
                        So, the task of NATO came down to the fact that they needed to have time to back up their group in the Federal Republic of Germany with reserves. And our task was to break it. Because after its defeat, the scattered British, American and French divisions would no longer have the opportunity to form a united front - they could be brought into battle only alternately, in general - this would be a catastrophic one.
                        Well, yes, the Americans and the British, of course, will sit and do nothing, limiting themselves only to these forces, they will immediately strike from all sides and the fleet will play an important role here, and when your house is on fire, then there will no longer be neighbors .
                      3. +2
                        1 October 2012 14: 13
                        Quote: Darck
                        Well, yes, the Americans with the British, of course they will sit and do nothing, limited to only these forces,

                        Read more here http://alternathistory.org.ua/sukhoputnye-sily-ovd-protiv-nato-bezyadernyi-konfl
                        ikt
                        As for the forces of the fleet ... From the strength of the aircraft carrier 4. At the approximate parity of the Air Force, for air traffic control and NATO, there was not much difference (approximately 20% of the total numerical advantage of NATO, but the number of interceptors was dominated by the ATS). The first month it would have been massive with huge losses, but air supremacy would not belong to anyone. Aircraft carrier wings here could not change anything.
                        Quote: Darck
                        It would have been a very long war and for three days it wasn’t enough.

                        I have never talked about winning the war in 3 of the day. I wrote that the FRG grouping would have been broken up on the 3 of the day. And this is not my opinion but the result of NATO headquarters games.
                      4. Darck
                        +2
                        1 October 2012 14: 28
                        I wrote that the German group would have been defeated in 3 days. And this is not my opinion, but the result of NATO headquarters games.
                        So the grouping of Germany or NATO? You decided, because above you wrote about NATO, and NATO is not one of Germany.
                        Read more here http://alternathistory.org.ua/sukhoputnye-sily-ovd-protiv-nato-bezyadernyi-konfl

                        ikt
                        He looked around, it’s about, as it were, would. It does not reflect the whole picture.
                        And this is not my opinion, but the result of NATO headquarters games.
                        May I look at these staff games?
                      5. Antipetian 1
                        -1
                        1 October 2012 14: 34
                        http://alternathistory.org.ua

                        And it’s not a shame to refer to such a thing, huh?
                      6. +2
                        1 October 2012 14: 50
                        Not at all ashamed. Because it is the result of a very long and meticulous work with a bunch of sources that have no relation to an alternative history.
                      7. +3
                        1 October 2012 14: 43
                        Quote: Darck
                        So the grouping of Germany or NATO? You decided, because above you wrote about NATO, and NATO is not one of Germany.

                        This is a missprint. This meant not "the grouping of the FRG" but "the grouping in the FRG" i.e. NATO grouping in Germany. And I gave a link, everything is detailed there - how many and whose divisions were there.
                        Quote: Darck
                        He looked around, it’s about, as it were, would. It does not reflect the whole picture.

                        Captain Obvious kakbe hints that your comments "the whole picture" reflect to a much lesser extent.
                        Quote: Darck
                        May I look at these staff games?

                        Unfortunately no. The Foreign Military Review wrote about this, but the magazine has not been with me for a long time, but I never found it on the network.
                      8. Darck
                        0
                        1 October 2012 14: 49
                        This is a missprint. This meant not "the grouping of the FRG" but "the grouping in the FRG" i.e. NATO grouping in Germany. And I gave a link, everything is detailed there - how many and whose divisions were there.
                        There is nothing detailed, some speculation to claim such superiority needs facts, but not one dude wrote that like that.
                        Captain Obvious kakbe hints that your comments "the whole picture" reflect to a much lesser extent.
                        I remind the captain of the evidence that in order to make such statements, facts are needed.
                        Unfortunately no. The Foreign Military Review wrote about this, but the magazine has not been with me for a long time, but I never found it on the network.
                        This is bad, very bad. And so we have nothing more than a confirmed theory.
                      9. +2
                        1 October 2012 15: 02
                        Quote: Darck
                        There is nothing detailed, some speculation to claim such superiority needs facts, but not one dude wrote that like that.

                        there is a full alignment on the disposition of NATO ground forces in Europe. This is now called - nothing detailed? By the way, the analyst of ZVO was taken as a source. Also a frivolous edition?
                        Quote: Darck
                        This is bad, very bad. And so we have nothing more than a confirmed theory.

                        To whom is it bad? I’m not at all .. I share the knowledge that I have. Is it convenient to consider my information false? Your right.
                      10. +2
                        1 October 2012 13: 52
                        AUGs in Europe will not help
                        AUG will be able to create a reliable air defense umbrella for landing troops, relying on small shaves. But it was then now unlikely that the army in Europe is laughter and shame.
                        But then again, the conclusion to the enemy’s communications of the 1st AUG of the USSR Navy would change the picture very much because the amers would have to allocate from 2 to 4 AUG for search and destruction. carry long-range anti-ship missiles that can be extinguished only with AB.
                      11. 0
                        1 October 2012 13: 20
                        At the European theater of operations, yes, 1,5-2 weeks. Even with those armies.
                        Here is an example at the division’s offensive site per day; 2 tactical tactical missiles were allocated. And now the norm is even higher. And if you think that the military will not use nuclear weapons, you are very mistaken.
                        The USSR had a powerful fleet of cover for the SSBN, and the general purpose fleet was not started to build it. Now they continue.
                      12. +4
                        1 October 2012 13: 28
                        And how would this very fleet there help?
                        The point is that there was such a country Germany, sawn on the 2 part. So, the Bundeswehr of the FRG + US divisions + several divisions of England and France constituted the first echelon of NATO defense. And we also had GSVG, SGV, TsGV + Polish, GDR, Czechoslovakia forces ... and we and NATO had second-tier divisions (in England, in France, in the USA, which were to be deployed by an air bridge, etc.) We have - in the border military districts. So, if a war suddenly began, we practically had a double superiority from the very beginning both in the part of the deployed units and in the transfer of reserves.
                        So, the task of NATO came down to the fact that they needed to have time to back up their group in the Federal Republic of Germany with reserves. And our task was to break it. Because after its defeat, the scattered British, American and French divisions would no longer have the opportunity to form a united front - they could be brought into battle only alternately, in general - this would be a catastrophic one.
                        Well, the imported guys figured out their chances at staff exercises. It turned out - their united group in the Federal Republic of Germany will be able to live 3 of the day, then - to her skiff, which means skiff and the entire NATO ground defense system
                      13. Antipetian 1
                        -2
                        1 October 2012 13: 37
                        Well, in general, Scoop planned to wash his boots in the ocean after 5 days
                    3. Darck
                      +2
                      1 October 2012 14: 16
                      Which really concentrated NATO forces in Europe simply would not have had. There, the ratio of land forces at all stages in the first 1,5-2 months went as 2: 1 in our favor
                      When they attack, the contingent should be much higher than the enemy’s forces, because even if officially 2-1, then if every sixth or tenth of the population picks up weapons, the defenders will have the advantage. Plus, you need to look at your infrastructure and providing, withdraw power, away from the theater or move this very theater much further.
                      1. Antipetian 1
                        0
                        1 October 2012 14: 26
                        then if every sixth or tenth of the population takes up arms, the advantage will be on the side of the defenders

                        Thanks, laughed. I introduced the French pioneer with wet pants and M-16 in the paws.
                      2. Darck
                        +1
                        1 October 2012 14: 31
                        Thanks, laughed. I introduced the French pioneer with wet pants and M-16 in the paws.
                        You can laugh as much as you like, but this is a force to be reckoned with, which many wars show, for example, take the Second World War. The USSR did not have only pros in the army, in case of an attack, they would also use green youths.
                      3. Antipetian 1
                        -1
                        1 October 2012 14: 43
                        but this is a force to be reckoned with, as many wars show, take for example the Second World War

                        The USSR did not have only pros in the army, in case of an attack, green youths would also be used.

                        Gun after gun is easy. Doesn’t it bother you at all that the Soviet army draft? And about the analogy with the Second World War - this is generally. Although Kulikovskaya did not remember
                      4. Darck
                        +1
                        1 October 2012 14: 56
                        Doesn’t it bother you at all that the Soviet army is conscripted?

                        No, it doesn’t bother me.
                        And about the analogy with the Second World War - this is generally.
                        What do you want to say that in World War II, the USSR fought only with their regular army, which was then in service? No, they took the youths in the same way. Now tell me at least one reason why NATO could not do the same.
                      5. Antipetian 1
                        0
                        1 October 2012 15: 02
                        Simply because the militia in the conditions of the Third World War of the elderly, mothers and "youngsters" is, in principle, incapable of combat. Well, only if you "take a bazooka and shmalnut towards the enemy" and run around the basements with a gun. There is no real force that could affect the balance of power.
                        No it doesn't bother me

                        How can this not be embarrassing if the USSR army itself is a crowd of "green youths".
                      6. Darck
                        +1
                        1 October 2012 15: 14
                        How can this not be embarrassing if the USSR army itself is a crowd of "green youths
                        No, the army of the USSR, before the German attack, was highly qualified and consisted only of selected soldiers who had undergone fierce training for years and in no case, newcomers did not come there, nooo.
                        Just because the militia in the conditions of the Third World of the elderly
                        To begin with, let's take the fact that you started talking about the militia. I wrote if every sixth or ten takes weapons. This does not mean that they will run there, only some preachers with machine guns and untrained mothers.
                      7. Antipetian 1
                        -2
                        1 October 2012 15: 20
                        No, the Soviet army before the German attack

                        , was highly qualified and consisted only of selected soldiers who had undergone fierce training for years and in no case, newcomers did not come there, it grows numb.

                        This does not mean that they will run there, only some preachers with machine guns and untrained mothers.

                        Dear friend, are you an addict for an hour? wink
                      8. Darck
                        +1
                        1 October 2012 15: 23
                        Dear friend, are you an addict for an hour?

                        Are you looking for nariks to make friends with them? Sory, but I'm not one of yours.
                      9. Antipetian 1
                        -1
                        1 October 2012 15: 28
                        No, it’s like you are one of them
                      10. Darck
                        +2
                        1 October 2012 15: 44
                        No, it’s like you are one of them

                        wassat Sorry dude, but I'm not interested in drug addicts, so for now.
                      11. +2
                        1 October 2012 14: 47
                        Quote: Darck
                        You can laugh as much as you like, but this is a force to be reckoned with, as many wars show, take for example the Second World War

                        Just the Second World War showed that the militia can do practically nothing against the personnel troops.
                        It’s one thing when newcomers join the army STRUCTURE, where there are fathers, commanders, and even sergeants, weapons, and so on and so forth. Then yes - after saturating the cached part with new recruits and weeks of 3 chasing them as it should, we will get something relatively combat-ready.
                        Well, this is not the case. The militia of the "here's a rifle and two clips - or fight" level is a lubricant for tank tracks.
                      12. Darck
                        +1
                        1 October 2012 15: 10
                        Just the Second World War showed that the militia can do practically nothing against the personnel troops.
                        It’s one thing when newcomers join the army STRUCTURE, where there are fathers, commanders, and even sergeants, weapons, and so on and so forth. Then yes - after saturating the cached part with new recruits and weeks of 3 chasing them as it should, we will get something relatively combat-ready.
                        Well, this is not the case. The militia of the "here's a rifle and two clips - or fight" level is a lubricant for tank tracks.
                        What is stopping NATO from bringing new recruits into the ranks of its army? Although, according to some information, they could only last three days. And that there were only pros in the USSR army and it was only these soldiers who would go on top of the attack? War is unpredictable and your relations, if you just add on the people's militias, then the advantage is exhausted. And it is this reserve and militia that can give time for the approach of the rest of the NATO armada. I think if the Soviet Union decided to attack, then the NATO would know pulled off all their forces.
                      13. +2
                        1 October 2012 16: 51
                        Quote: Darck
                        What is stopping NATO from bringing new recruits into the ranks of its army?

                        Mostly time. And most importantly - when I talked about our twofold superiority, I took this factor into account
                        Quote: Darck
                        And that in the USSR army there were then only pros and it was only these soldiers who would go on top of the attack?

                        This is not the point, but the fact that our divisions in the German Democratic Republic and so on were staffed practically by the wartime states (95-100% of the population) Most Germans also had a high share of readiness (of the order of 70-80%), but all kinds of territories - the militias were completely staged.
                        Quote: Darck
                        All this is nonsense, war is an unpredictable thing, and to your relations, if you just add the people's militias, then the advantage is

                        These are your arguments. And I have militias taken into account in the calculations
                        Quote: Darck
                        And it is this reserve and militia that can give time for the approach of the rest of the NATO armada

                        laughing What kind of armada ?! After 1,5-2 months, the USSR was able to set up the order of 300-400 divisions in addition to the troops in Europe and the European part of the USSR.
                      14. Darck
                        0
                        1 October 2012 17: 34
                        Mostly time. And most importantly - when I talked about our twofold superiority, I took this factor into account
                        What did you take into account? How many people would take up arms? Again the tales of forgotten magazines? Or do you think the NATO would not have missed the idea that the USSR would prepare to attack them and would stupidly wait?
                        This is not the point.
                        Of course, this is not the point, when it comes to the subscribers, everything is taken into account, but this is not the point. Our preparation motto does not matter, take the number 2-1, which some guy said and we will believe, hallelujah!
                        that our divisions in the German Democratic Republic and so on were staffed practically by the wartime states (95-100% of the total) Most Germans also had a high share of readiness (about 70-80%), but all kinds of militia territories there were completely mowed down.
                        To tell the truth, in full, you still say that in the garages in the backyard there was a cloud of fighters that would easily fly, fulfill their task and return. Stop fantasizing, you wedged yourself into a Bosko, some kind of model you read in some kind of magazine, that there then there was a No number of tanks and based on this model, you made some conclusions about superpower. Forgetting about the US Navy bases in the same Europe, about the USAG which are on alert, from Spain to Japan, American ships grazed everything came out of the USSR. You don’t think that they are preparing for war, but intelligence doesn’t sleep. All your knowledge is sucked out of the finger, the dude who took them based on the assumptions of the third dude. Only one phrase 3 days worth what is enough to fantasize.
                        And I have militias taken into account in the calculations
                        In those where it is written about 3 days? laughing
                        After 1-1,5 months, the USSR was able to set up about 300-400 divisions in addition to the troops in Europe and the European part of the USSR.

                        Hood, there would be no one to resist the Americans when they attacked the USSR.
                      15. Darck
                        0
                        1 October 2012 17: 56
                        The USSR was a powerful state, but it would not have pulled the war in Europe, the US war, and in addition the war in Afghanistan that he had already waged. And they had allies so-so, who were beaten by everyone.
                      16. +1
                        1 October 2012 18: 28
                        Quote: Darck
                        What did you take into account? How many people would take up arms? Again the tales of forgotten magazines? Or do you think the NATO would not have missed the idea that the USSR would prepare to attack them and would stupidly wait?

                        Read the article already, huh? Or at least read something about the Bundeswehr ... Maybe you won’t write such a heresy.
                        So that you know, the German Armed Forces consisted of two parts. Part One - Personnel - This is the Bundeswehr. Part two - these are the territories, brigades and regiments of Haimatschutz (and you never heard such words wink ) So, your mythical militia - these are the same haimatschutts. it was from the militia in addition to the personnel Bundeswehr that the Germans planned to form another 12 brigades and 15 regiments. This is all that the Germans had weapons for and this is taken into account in the calculations
                        Quote: Darck
                        Of course, this is not the point, when it comes to the subscribers, everything is taken into account, but this is not the point. Our preparation motto does not matter, take the number 2-1, which some guy said and we will believe, hallelujah!

                        In gives fool What, you want to say that the fully-equipped SA division in Europe was less prepared than the German territories? Our training then was more than on the level. And I strongly doubt that the same US or France personnel units were ready at least at the level of units of the SA GSVG
                        Quote: Darck
                        What is straightforward in full, you still say that in the garages in the backyard there was a cloud of fighters,

                        I say that there is. Do not believe? Refute the facts, not the spray of saliva. The article presents the entire layout of the NATO Armed Forces and the ATS in Europe, so you can continue to fantasize about the mythical bases of the United States that are dear to your heart.
                        Quote: Darck
                        then there was a new number of tanks and based on this model

                        Dear Druk, if I were to count by tanks, there would be superiority not 2 to one but 8 to one
                        Quote: Darck
                        All your knowledge is sucked out of your finger

                        Refute. With reference sources.
                        Quote: Darck
                        Hood, there would be no one to resist the Americans when they attacked the USSR.

                        Do you understand what you said? laughing
                      17. Darck
                        0
                        3 October 2012 02: 39
                        So, your mythical militia - these are the same haimatschutts. it was from the militia in addition to the personnel Bundeswehr that the Germans planned to form another 12 brigades and 15 regiments. This is all that the Germans had weapons for and this is taken into account in the calculations
                        Why are you so tight, so many show-offs to express your fantasies? So we are talking about NATO or again about Germany? Are you already determined for a start completely, otherwise you are like a girl jumping from NATO to Germany, again to NATO and here again Germany.
                        Read the article already, and
                        Why should I read an article that begins with words, approximately approximately, and which refers to some kind of radio operator. Then there are epic things, like in France there are armored vehicles, FIG knows how much. Read this garbage myself.
                        Q. What do you want to say, that the fully equipped SA division in Europe was less prepared than the German territories?
                        Once again, we are talking about NATO, NATO! When will it reach you?
                        And I strongly doubt that the same USA or France had personnel units ready at least at the level of units of the SA GSVG
                        It says either your megalomania, or stupidity, which of the two you choose yourself.
                        The article provides the entire layout of the NATO Armed Forces and the ATS in Europe
                        Oh, what a dreamer you are.
                        Refute the facts
                        Refute that? You haven’t written anything yet.
                        Refute. With reference sources.
                        What to refute? Your fantasies in which you read one porn journal with some kind of role-playing games? Subsequently, releasing them here and at the same time losing the journal itself? What should I specifically refute?
                        Do you understand what you said?
                        And have you heard voices for a long time? And the fact that you didn’t understand what I wrote is good, you’ll sleep better. I don’t take into account the article that you shoved because the author compares in his own way, cuts something, and something adds, for example.
                        the English artillery DIVISION with a staffing of as many as 5 thousand people, I categorically refuse, and I enter it in the combat support of the only English army corps ...
                        There is nothing about the composition of the support, etc. There is nothing about the 6th US fleet, which constantly hung out and hangs out in Europe. There is nothing about the NATO air fleet, the WHOLE AIR FLEET! There is no NATO documentation, there is no combat readiness of tanks, there is a number 53350, and how many of them even start? But even in this article with newspaper clippings, I did not find anything about three days. So you can continue to fantasize and console yourself, the flag is in your hands.
                      18. +1
                        3 October 2012 09: 02
                        Quote: Darck
                        Why are you so tight, so many show-offs to express your fantasies? So we are talking about NATO or again about Germany? Are you already determined for a start completely, otherwise you are like a girl jumping from NATO to Germany, again to NATO and here again Germany.

                        Look after the tongue ... "girl".
                        Naturally, when I talk about personnel units, I am talking about NATO contingent in Germany. And when I talk about the militia, I only talk about Germany, because even to such an alternative gifted as you should be clear that there will be no other militias in Germany. Or do you think the French will quickly seize their hunting rifles and run on the train to Germany? fool
                        Quote: Darck
                        It says either your megalomania, or stupidity, which of the two you choose yourself.

                        This suggests that you do not know anything about the preparation of the SA in Europe or the preparation of NATO.
                        Quote: Darck
                        What to refute? Your fantasies in which you read a porno journal with some kind of role-playing games?

                        laughing laughing laughing so you zvo - porno journalist? That's what I look at, you can’t get into NATO :))))
                        In short, you know nothing about the NATO ground forces in Europe. You don't know anything about the NATO Air Force. And you don't know anything about the 6th fleet either. Not a single number or even a reasonable thought came from you, only the mantra "Oooo ... NATO ... Oooo ... das ist nichtse, das ist fantastishe!" laughing
                        Keep rolling up our eyes and falling into puppy delight at any mention of NATO. But do not get into a topic that you can’t afford - because if you start to study what NATO had and what - ATS you will have a cognitive dissonance for the rest of your life from unfulfilled erotic dreams.
                      19. +1
                        3 October 2012 09: 03
                        Quote: Darck
                        I do not take into account the article that you shoved, because there the author compares in his own way, cuts something, and adds something, for example.

                        He only adds something in favor of NATO :))))) And all the same, NATO does not shine in 1985. And the only case when it is removed not in favor of NATO you quoted. And counting the connection in 5 thousand people per division is nonsense. Especially considering the fact that other units in England were very far from 100% of staffing. There, the building was not worth counting, perhaps.
                        Quote: Darck
                        There is nothing about collateral compositions, etc.

                        NATO had problems with that, yes.
                        Quote: Darck
                        There is nothing about the 6 US Navy, which is constantly hanging out and hanging out in Europe

                        and how will one or two aircraft carriers in the Mediterranean help you?
                        Quote: Darck
                        There is nothing about NATO’s air fleet, THE WHOLE AIR FLEET!

                        THE WHOLE AIR FLEET OF NATO (you can reckon) in terms of number as much as 20% superior to the air forces of the ATS countries. Despite the fact that on interceptors the advantage was still for the ATS. So what?
                        Quote: Darck
                        There is no NATO documentation, there is no combat readiness of tanks, there is a number 53350

                        This is what you gave! Just an epic file
                        53350 tanks are the data of the American Committee for the Study of Soviet Armies (SASO) and this figure is not given in the author’s calculations, but in the section where he writes about how the ATS invasion of NATO was seen. The author considered it by division, not by tank.
                      20. +2
                        1 October 2012 14: 31
                        Quote: Darck
                        When attacked, the contingent should be much higher

                        Should not. Look with what correlation of forces the same Wehrmacht attacked France and the USSR. In what balance of power were the Arab-Israeli conflicts.
                        Quote: Darck
                        if every sixth or tenth of the population takes up arms, the advantage will be on the side of the defenders

                        Militia is hopeless. Unless the army climbs into city blocks, take house after house. But we were not going to make such mistakes
                      21. Darck
                        0
                        1 October 2012 14: 43
                        Should not. Look with what correlation of forces the same Wehrmacht attacked France and the USSR.
                        And it clearly showed how Germany lost, with less.
                        In what balance of power were the Arab-Israeli conflicts
                        It was just the same that the Arabs attacked at a greater advantage and received luli, and when they received these luli, the USSR fleet advanced to intimidate Israel, the Americans drove their fleet back and the USSR landed and left, the victory remained with Israel, so this is not the most best examples.
                        Militia is hopeless. Unless the army climbs into city blocks, take house after house. But we were not going to make such mistakes
                        I would not say that it’s hopeless, the reserve + militia is not a weak force. If you are not going to control the territory, what kind of defeat are you talking about in three days? Is it so easy to come check in and leave? This defeat, in its brightest form, must be achieved then goals, but just like that it’s pointless.
                      22. 0
                        1 October 2012 14: 58
                        I would not say that it is hopeless, reserve + militia is a contented, not weak force.
                        You judge by the Second World War and this is not correct. For partisans are partisans, and the people's militia of the USSR and Volkssturm have shown themselves to be an ineffective means. If we take modern, imposing wars, then there pure guerrilla warfare is not very similar to classically military operations.
                        .If you are not going to control the territory, what kind of rout in three days is it?
                        So maybe it's not about the militia, but about the underground, and these are two different things
                        For control, there are explosives with their weapons and tactics. The army should not clean the house. She sees him as an adversary and inflicts heavy means.
                      23. Antipetian 1
                        -1
                        1 October 2012 15: 04
                        The army should not clean the house. She sees him as an adversary and inflicts heavy means.

                        For example TNW
                      24. 0
                        1 October 2012 15: 16
                        For example TNW
                        Climb 10 OFS enough of them.
                      25. Antipetian 1
                        0
                        1 October 2012 15: 22
                        This was my joke
                      26. Darck
                        +1
                        1 October 2012 15: 20
                        I would not say that it is hopeless, reserve + militia is a contented, not weak force.
                        You judge by the Second World War and this is not correct. For partisans are partisans, and the people's militia of the USSR and Volkssturm have shown themselves to be an ineffective means. If we take modern, imposing wars, then there pure guerrilla warfare is not very similar to classically military operations.
                        So we are not talking about the fact that the greens will fight alone against regular forces, we are talking about the fact that the quantitative counterbalance can change a lot, not towards the attackers. What can take time.
                      27. +1
                        1 October 2012 15: 38
                        What can take time.
                        They take away the skin on the skin. You seem to still not understand. The army is not fighting quite like that, for example, the battalion commander has an order to occupy such a point. If he gets in the way of some village, her nafig demolished and move on. A mortar shot from the forest unfolds mortars and covers a square. And given the level of passion in Europe, this is from the category of fairy tales.
                      28. Darck
                        0
                        1 October 2012 15: 52
                        What can take time.
                        They take away the skin on the skin. You seem to still not understand. The army is not fighting quite like that, for example, the battalion commander has an order to occupy such a point. If he gets in the way of some village, her nafig demolished and move on. A mortar shot from the forest unfolds mortars and covers a square. And given the level of passion in Europe, this is from the category of fairy tales.
                        Oh madness, you still don’t seem to understand that we’re not talking about when, for example, the militia ONLY is at war with the army. The war in Chechnya showed how the tanks are on fire, the army is getting the lyuley, and it’s hard to name the bearded pros. In essence, this is an underground of the same people who took up machine guns and grenade launchers.
                      29. +1
                        1 October 2012 15: 59

                        The war in the same Chechnya showed how the tanks are burning,
                        In Chechnya, the army was not allowed to fight as they know how. With all the means of amplification + the prostitutes of the politicians who sold their victory in 96 ..
                        .In essence, this is an underground of the same people who took up machine guns and grenade launchers.
                        Which mainly served as an emergency in the SA to remind who were the Dudaev and Maskhad?
                        when ONLY, for example, the militia is fighting the army
                        And modern wars will be fleeting. Do you think people will have time to quickly assemble self-defense units?
                        Or are you talking about reservists?
                      30. Darck
                        +1
                        1 October 2012 16: 04
                        In Chechnya, the army was not allowed to fight as they know how. With all the means of amplification + the prostitutes of the politicians who sold their victory in 96 ..
                        And where is the guarantee that during the invasion of Europe and the attack on the NATO army, the USSR will be allowed to fight exactly as they can? That they will kill everything and everything equal to the earth? This will be genocide.
                        Which mainly served as an emergency in the SA to remind who were the Dudaev and Maskhad?
                        So there will be the same one who will go to the front (squander in the armed forces), who will underground create who will create a militia and far from housewives will command them.
                      31. Antipetian 1
                        -1
                        1 October 2012 14: 44
                        Yes, you’re tired of dragging the Second World War already! Another time!
                      32. 0
                        1 October 2012 14: 59
                        Another time!
                        If you take partisanism, then the problems are exactly the same. Revealing the enemy. I think it’s not necessary to remind how omerikameriches gnaw a cactus in Afghanistan and how they gnawed in Iraq.
                      33. Antipetian 1
                        0
                        1 October 2012 15: 04
                        Yes, but not in the third world
                      34. biglow
                        0
                        1 October 2012 16: 36
                        Darck,
                        French blacks and Arabs will quickly begin to bang each other and rob stores than to fight an advancing enemy
            2. Brother Sarych
              +1
              1 October 2012 12: 06
              Without the nuclear weapons of one of these powers they will certainly throw a mouthful ... sausages, so you still have to resort to nuclear weapons ...
              1. +2
                1 October 2012 12: 45
                That should be done so as not to distribute. More precisely, they threw it, but not that :)))
        4. -1
          1 October 2012 12: 55
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          including a dozen three F-35S

          I have recently been visited by the idea that the US F-35 will not be accepted for service, but this is only an intuitive assumption and a small part of the analysis can.
          1. +3
            1 October 2012 13: 04
            By the way, me too :))))) But after thinking about this I thought this is what - some amount will definitely be accepted - otherwise you will have to admit that the multi-billion dollar program went under the tail of the dog. And the allies will be shoved with terrible force. So, probably, they will still put a certain amount on their ABs - say, one squadron per aircraft carrier, and the rest will be finished off with quite normal and adequate "Silent Hornets" ...
            1. +1
              1 October 2012 13: 22
              The US Navy is the most prudent in the US Armed Forces and understands that they need normal workhorses, not super waffles.
              1. +3
                1 October 2012 13: 37
                PPS uniquely. Indeed, the most reasonable kind of troops. And in the end - good Ticonderoga and Burke, monstrous but functional Nimitz, excellent Ohio, Los Angeles ...
                And no "dreams of the mind" like F-117 or V-2
              2. Antipetian 1
                -2
                1 October 2012 13: 38
                Sorry for the F-35 and F-22 they don’t think so.
                1. +1
                  1 October 2012 13: 44
                  Sorry for the F-35 and F-22 they don’t think so.
                  But the Air Force, along with Darpa and Lockheed, is sawing the budget hard and enthusiastically. I would be afraid if they started to buy the F-15SE.
                  1. Antipetian 1
                    -1
                    1 October 2012 13: 47
                    That's for sure. Although, you see, maybe they will bring to mind the F-35 and F-22, although now it is drank in its purest form
          2. 0
            1 October 2012 13: 46
            they will accept a choice stupidly will not buy the F-35. For the park is coming soon.
    2. +3
      1 October 2012 09: 53
      Andrey from Chelyabinsk,

      very well said Colleague +
      1. +3
        1 October 2012 10: 01
        Thank !:))) drinks
    3. +3
      1 October 2012 11: 54
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      So, if we understand that an aircraft carrier is the FIRST ORDER most effective defense system of our shores


      Secondly, cover the missile launch area with strategic submarines and aircraft.
      In peacetime, so that everyone would know that there is something to perform the above actions and thoughts of attack from the enemies did not arise.
      It is not necessary to transfer hostilities to your territory.
      After the hostilities on its territory will have to rebuild the country from ruins, it will be more expensive than aircraft carriers, additional casualties among the population and the military
      1. +3
        1 October 2012 13: 01
        In-in, and I'm about the same!
        drinks
    4. -5
      1 October 2012 12: 19
      Andrey from Chelyabinsk,
      Che for a moronic habit of comparing everything according to the principle of "wall to wall". If AUG is full of planes, then drown it with aviation too? Big ship - big rocket. Poplar at the same time. It is possible and "flurry".

      AUG has a huge disadvantage - it is hardly enough for the Papuans. Just look for statistics of departures for major conflicts with analysis, how many sorties from an aircraft carrier, and how many "from the ground", how many targets were hit from an aircraft carrier, and how many "from the ground".

      AUG is a necessary measure. The United States is far from the civilized world and there is no other way to bring democracy.

      AUG in defense is from the category - insanity grew stronger.
      1. +3
        1 October 2012 12: 57
        Quote: yanus
        Che for the moronic habit

        Dear, when are you from a palm tree? Sit at the computer less, and the tail will go bald
        Quote: yanus
        If AUG is full of planes, then drown it with aviation too? Big ship - big rocket. Poplar at the same time.

        fool Go teach mate. Topol on AUG, yeah. But if the short - ballistic missile, even with nuclear warheads, has virtually no chance of hitting the AUG. In the USSR, they tried to do this and did not succeed.
        Quote: yanus
        It is possible and "flurry".

        And you can - shoot with a slingshot. Swim in an inflatable boat and plant a pebble by pebble until the AUG crews die of laughter.
        "Shkval", young man, shoots as much as 13 km. And tell me, who will let you so beautiful to the AUG for 13 km?
        Quote: yanus
        AUG has a huge disadvantage - it is hardly enough for the Papuans.

        But in the USSR they did not know! DRA was prepared, "loaves" were baked like pies, "Kuznetsovs" were built, "Ulyanovsk" were laid ...
        Quote: yanus
        insanity was strong.

        That's right.
  8. sxn278619
    -3
    1 October 2012 09: 44
    Is it really not clear that Russia is a poor country, that it cannot even afford one AUG. Moreover, everyone understands that the war with NATO will immediately develop into a nuclear one.
    1. +5
      1 October 2012 10: 02
      No, not clear
      1. Antipetian 1
        -2
        1 October 2012 10: 22
        Look, Kuzya is crawling through a stump deck! We can afford one AUG - is it only necessary?
        1. +3
          1 October 2012 16: 00
          Simply, "Orpheus and Eurydice", a choir of mourners, from the "eperny" theater of the CIA. In the early 90s, when our fleet, primarily aircraft carrier, was hounded, these mournful songs about why we need aircraft carriers flooded the media. Something our overseas "friends" did not help us go bankrupt, preserving aircraft carriers, and by hook or by crook tried to destroy them, by the hands of our fools and traitors. Everyone understands the role of aviation, including over the sea, but we are talking about aircraft carriers, whose task is to provide cover for the fleet with aviation far from the bases, that's all, "Why do we need aircraft carriers?" This is the evolution of weapons! These fans of "mosquito fleets" have already got it, like would-be chess players who would assert that a queen is not needed, that chess can be played well with pawns alone.
  9. 0
    1 October 2012 09: 50
    I would like to project a quote from the last phrase to the present ... "Naturally, the USSR defense ministers, well versed only in tanks and artillery, unconditionally believed in the leadership of the Navy... "and continue, - Whom and what does the current leadership of the military department trust, being in the status of a" layman "? It seems that only the military and engineering thought of potential opponents.
    _________________________________

    It is, of course, possible to speculate about the importance and necessity of aircraft carriers for Russia. But at this stage, this is not even a show-off, but one of the ways to divert attention from existing and, indeed, important problems. The world's largest submarines do not know where to stick, but we are aiming at aircraft carriers. We talked about the possible modernization of "nuclear cruisers", about ekranoplans ... and what? But nothing, so far we have been building artillery "boats" for seven years ...
    It’s time to panic already.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    an aircraft carrier is FIRST ORDER an effective defense system for our shores

    I'm far from special ... even very far away. But the aircraft carrier on its shores will look strange. This is not a "jump barge".
    1. +5
      1 October 2012 10: 08
      Quote: Understudy
      far from special ... even very far. But the aircraft carrier on its shores will look strange. This is not a "jump barge".

      And why is it so strange? In the USSR, in 80, TAVKR with Su-27 on board was considered a necessary element of the group for the destruction of AUG.
      1. dchanc112
        -1
        15 October 2012 02: 16
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk And why is it so strange? In the USSR, in 80, TAVKR with Su-27 on board was considered a necessary element of the group for the destruction of AUG.
        In the 80s, this was not even considered with the Su-27k, and in theory (based on the wired programs in the automated control system of the ship’s deck aircraft), it was planned to apply the BShU with the Mig-29k. For 2012 Su-33 can deliver bombing attacks in the PMU.
        1. 0
          15 October 2012 02: 39
          Impossible is an aircraft carrier business for Russia today, no matter how we think otherwise. In this case, you need to look for other ways to maintain a balance of power.
  10. Antipetian 1
    -1
    1 October 2012 10: 19
    We need to understand that, by and large, AUGs of the USA do not threaten Russia at all. This is not the time - so modern methods of combating AUG, specifically for our country, are the throwing of nuclear weapons.
    You always need to remember, and it has already been said above that huge resources are needed to destroy the AUG. We need dozens, if not hundreds of aircraft, we need competent tactics, we need to blind AUG, we need to approach the launch distance of the RCC, we must at least track down the aircraft carrier to begin with. This is all incredibly complicated, and only in Soviet times could one try to arrange such hells as trash and fumes.
    1. Fox 070
      -2
      1 October 2012 13: 52
      Quote: Antipetyan 1
      huge resources are needed to destroy the AUG.

      Come on, you go hysterical and raise your paws in advance! During the war, the Nazis also shouted at every corner that the "Tirpitz" was unsinkable and that a whole fleet was needed to cope with it. And what is the result? Turned up keel. "Gods do not burn pots!" Go here again: "To be afraid of a wolf - do not go to the forest."
      1. Antipetian 1
        -1
        1 October 2012 14: 04
        Tell me then, how do you fill up AUG today? By the way, Tirpitz killed aviation, and this is dishonest
        1. +1
          1 October 2012 14: 10
          Tell me then, how do you fill up AUG today?
          Wait until the AUG will be commanded by a woman in the team will not-gra wait for her PMS and at this moment attack the aircraft. wassat
          1. Antipetian 1
            -1
            1 October 2012 14: 20
            Aviation? Well, how many planes should there be?
            1. 0
              1 October 2012 14: 30
              2 maize on PMV. With tactical assault strippers saboteurs
  11. +1
    1 October 2012 10: 55
    Navy Admiral N. I. Smirnov (though many naval commanders later said that it was Gorshkov’s ideas), who personally oversaw the development of an “armored missile cruiser” with a displacement of 80 tons with 100 strike missiles, a kind of revival of the Japanese superlinker type "Yamato".



    My man))))) It is a pity that at that time UVP and small-sized strike missiles were not widespread. 1000 Granites or Basalts could not be crammed into 100 thousand.
    1. Vito
      +1
      1 October 2012 11: 12
      Kars , Greetings. hi
      Quote: Kars
      My man))))) It is a pity that at that time UVP and small-sized strike missiles were not widespread. 1000 Granites or Basalts could not be crammed into 100 thousand.

      And in my opinion there is still the opportunity! Several giants of atomic vehicles are waiting for modernization and thorough repair! Brothers PETER THE GREAT. If you fill such giant platforms with all types of missiles, then accompanied by a pair of frigates or destroyers this will be a good trump card in our Navy!
      1. Brother Sarych
        0
        1 October 2012 12: 04
        Nobody will shpigit anything - most likely they will cut into needles, as an allegedly absolutely unprofitable business ...
  12. +2
    1 October 2012 11: 28
    I personally think that we have always had and will have our own path of development ... and aircraft carriers, perhaps, are necessary ...
    1. Antipetian 1
      -1
      1 October 2012 12: 59
      Now you will tell us "why?"
  13. +2
    1 October 2012 12: 21
    Positive point.
    Creation of aircraft carriers / or another project comparable in scale /
    will raise and accelerate the level of development of technology, industry,
    education. And not only in the military sphere.
    1. GP
      GP
      0
      1 October 2012 12: 37
      Quote: lesnik.
      Positive point.
      Creation of aircraft carriers / or another project comparable in scale /
      will raise and accelerate the level of development of technology, industry,
      education. And not only in the military sphere.


      For this, aircraft carriers are not needed at all, and even harmful in our case, because they divert huge resources to not-so-needed classes. The class of helicopter carriers to protect maritime borders is much more reliable. Moreover, our helicopters are already a draft horse, they are not only under water and in space. Funds for the development of AUG, invested in helicopter pilots and will give much greater return.
      1. 0
        1 October 2012 13: 02
        Quote: GP
        For this, aircraft carriers are not needed at all.

        Quote: GP
        / or another project comparable in scale /
      2. 0
        1 October 2012 13: 05
        Quote: GP
        For this, aircraft carriers are not needed at all and are even harmful in our case,

        / or another project comparable in scale /
  14. bask
    -1
    1 October 2012 12: 36
    I don’t agree with you Sakhalin. The Varangian is more precisely an aircraft-carrying cruiser. \ This is a different alternative for Russia. How many people are in the security guard in the Amerian aircraft carrier 10-15. The ships are only the military guards. The Varangian can solve practically the same problems from 2nd-3rd .. For modern Russia there is no alternative. But a nuclear power plant, and so on ...
    1. Antipetian 1
      -1
      1 October 2012 13: 00
      How many are in combat protection in an Amerian aircraft carrier 10-15. A ship is only a military guard. The Varangian can solve almost the same tasks from 2nd to 3rd

      Explain. Did you count it on your fingers now?
  15. Darck
    +2
    1 October 2012 12: 56
    It’s bad that full-fledged aircraft carriers weren’t built in the USSR, somewhere two years ago I read that the Russian Federation voiced a desire to buy a nimitz-class aircraft carrier from the United States, this would provide an inflow of money and new jobs for the Americans, but the United States said no. I don’t know how much this is or not. AUG is a formidable force and they are needed in any case, only full-fledged aircraft carriers, and not such that there are 2 fighters on deck and a cloud of missiles with dubious benefits. There’s no normal fleet there.
    With modern tracking equipment, its position will always be known to the accuracy of the coordinates of the admiral's cabin.
    In the conflict conflict, the satellites were the first to be demolished, during the Soviet era, they had the same opinion until they lost sight of the USAG, then reconnaissance was carried out by airplanes, so one reconnaissance plane, lost the AUG, then you raised it, you sent a second reconnaissance plane, this the second plane crashed. AUG can be destroyed, but it will require significant resources, and if there are 11 of them like the United States, then this is a complete message.
  16. +2
    1 October 2012 13: 31
    I am the infantry !! but I think that 4-6 aircraft carriers, for any hussers would be buzzing !!!!!
  17. arthur_hammer
    +1
    1 October 2012 17: 01
    but they could have been built under Stalin ....... project 72,
    1. Darck
      0
      1 October 2012 17: 37
      but they could have been built under Stalin ....... project 72,

      What kind of project was this, can I link? I want to look at its capabilities.
      1. arthur_hammer
        +1
        1 October 2012 18: 05
        http://navy-rus.livejournal.com/431230.html
  18. +1
    1 October 2012 18: 35
    The situation with aircraft carriers resembles a well-known joke when a member of the CPSU was asked whether he hesitated in holding the line of the party. No, said the member, hesitated along with the line. So it is with aircraft carriers. They essentially reflected the hesitation of the leaders of this very party in their views on the military doctrine of the USSR. Before the war, the main task was to confront the machinations of Great Britain, Germany and other various Swedes on the land theater, therefore the development of the fleet was aimed mainly at ensuring this confrontation. And in puddles such as the Baltic or Black Sea, aircraft carriers were, as it were, superfluous. What was clear during the war. While the USSR was bleeding again on a military theater, the United States was building up the potential of its fleet against its main adversary, Japan, in which aircraft carriers were the main power of its fleet. After the war, when the nuclear threat came to the forefront, all the forces of the USSR were thrown to create equivalent potential, while the Americans (not much affected in the war) were able to devote a significant part of their resources to strengthening their fleet, including the aircraft carrier, to First of all, to control the areas remote from them that came under their control after the defeat of Japan and the collapse of the English empire. The USSR at that time was mainly concerned that the history of 41 of the year would not be repeated i.e. cover of their territory. Then came missile euphoria with the conviction that all these floating airfields could be easily gouged by clouds of missiles launched from all sides and from a safe distance. At a certain stage, when the need for balanced AUGs was nevertheless realized, it turned out that it would be difficult to catch up with the United States, and a couple of three aircraft carriers would not make the weather.
  19. +2
    1 October 2012 20: 45
    The authors are slightly mistaken, the first aviomatki appeared in 1914.
    We did not build aircraft carriers because we have a fleet on the sidelines, on the first ground army. And being a customer, all the Ministry of Defense of the USSR and the Russian Federation proceeded from tank and missile attacks on Europe and missile attacks on the United States. And submarines were built because of the secrecy of the radar and the ability of the mpl to detect and destroy the enemy’s rpl. And everyone who says about the need to build one AVM per fleet, for their combat stability, at least 2 AVM per fleet is necessary, otherwise it makes no sense to spend money.
    And ask yourself the question: is our industry able to build them?
    I would like to hear the voice of shipbuilders from Severodvinsk or St. Petersburg, Kaliningarad, otherwise they, by habit, "will use all the money" and will not build anything
  20. +1
    2 October 2012 00: 20
    Conversation of an American aircraft carrier with a Spanish lighthouse at Cape Finisterre (Galicia).
    Spaniards (clutter in the background):
    - ... Says A-853, please turn 15 degrees south to avoid a collision with us. You are moving right at us, a distance of 25 nautical miles.
    Americans (background noise):
    - We advise you to turn 15 degrees to the north to avoid a collision with us.
    Spaniards:
    - The answer is negative. Repeat, turn 15 degrees south to avoid a collision.
    Americans (different voice):
    “The captain of the ship of the United States of America is speaking to you.” Turn 15 degrees north to avoid a collision.
    Spaniards:
    “We do not consider your proposal either possible or adequate; we advise you to turn 15 degrees south so as not to crash into us.”
    Americans (in elevated tones):
    - CAPTAIN RICHARD JAMES HOWARD SPEAKS TO YOU, USS LINCOLN AIRCRAFT COMMANDER OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, SECOND BY THE MAJORITY OF THE Navy OF THE AMERICAN Navy. We are escorted by 2 cruisers, 6 destroyers, 4 submarines and numerous support ships. I DO NOT ADVISE YOU - I ORDER TO CHANGE YOUR COURSE BY 15 DEGREES IN THE NORTH. OTHERWISE, WE WILL BE FORCED TO TAKE THE NECESSARY MEASURES TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF OUR SHIP. PLEASE IMMEDIATELY REMOVE OUR COURSE !!!
    Spaniards:
    “Juan Manuel Salas Alcantara is speaking to you.” There are two of us. We are accompanied by a dog, dinner, 2 bottles of beer and a canary, which is now sleeping. We are supported by the radio station and channel 106 “Extreme situations at sea”. We are not going to turn anywhere, given that we are on land and are the A-853 lighthouse on Cape Finisterre of the Galician coast of Spain. We have no idea what place we have in size among the Spanish lighthouses. You can accept everything ... !!! measures that you consider necessary, and do anything to ensure your safety ... !!! ship that will smash into smithereens on the rocks. Therefore, once again, we strongly recommend that you do the most meaningful thing: change your course 15 degrees south to avoid a collision.
    Americans:
    - OK, accepted, thanks.
  21. dchanc112
    0
    6 October 2012 20: 14
    Have fun here! I will ask an immodest question here are all theorists or more than half?
    1. +1
      7 October 2012 18: 33
      Quote: dchanc112
      here are all theorists

      Are you a practitioner?
      1. dchanc112
        -1
        7 October 2012 19: 13
        How do you know? Without a year, 40 minutes after registration.
        1. +1
          7 October 2012 19: 23
          Quote: dchanc112
          How do you know?

          In the sense of ?
          The opinions of practitioners are always and everywhere appreciated.
          As they say, do not pass by.
          1. dchanc112
            +2
            7 October 2012 22: 38
            Here (in this topic) the questions of the present, and not the history, were initially raised. Therefore, I asked the participants a question. And the person who draws, drew up plans for the use of forces, and wrote explanatory notes to them to cover (advertise) the stamped questions will not.
            Well, as for aircraft carriers (USSR, Russia), the theoretical (in TRSANK) their use, test reports and BS differ from practical use (this is not about combat use). For information, our aircraft carrier (formerly TAVKR) is called a "mass grave" though not by sailors. The sailors (no offense) have no idea (because they do not know the tactics of the Air Force, and in particular about the IA) about the war in the air. And there were reasons for this. So, practically, an aircraft carrier (ours) is a simulator for takeoff and landing, with no more than 2 links (not in the diagram). It turns out that the TAVKR "Kuznetsov" is now not TAVKR (the main complex has been out of order since 20..year ...), and not an aircraft carrier, because determine the third coordinate of the target (altitude) with accuracy at least (I will not say anything about the speed of determination) - / + 3 meters is not possible. Well, if this is corrected, then everything will be exactly the ship will be neutered, because the Yak-1000 remained in plywood, well, the Su-44, this is not a MiG-33, and the take-off and landing intervals (based on the size of the glider) do not correspond to the theoretical ones, I'm not even talking about working with the BPASP suspension and lifting the s-coms with lifters (only the aft one is used). Well, based on this (throughput, the size of the floating airfield), they refused to simultaneously fulfill the tasks of air defense and PLZ. You can continue to tell a lot of "good" things, but on paper there is only one thing, but in fact, like everywhere else, "ass" + on my ass I don't want to get any problems from this scribbling. So, I don’t know who didn’t want to build aircraft carriers, but there’s none of them. I heard about the deplorable state of carrier-based aviation since the days of the "flying coffin" of the Yak-29, and then I saw it in practice since the 38s, when I came to serve from the Air Force in the Navy.
  22. -1
    20 June 2020 21: 14
    did not want to build only